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Describe the team's discussion and evaluating process on whether the remote was technologically innovative.
Marketing: I wanna find our if our remote works.
Project Manager: Me too. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Um here's the agenda for our last meeting.
Marketing: Whoohoo.
Project Manager: Um after the opening we're going to have a prototype presentation, then we're going to discuss the evaluation criteria and the financing of our remote. Then we're going to evaluate the product and I think the whole production process, and then we're gonna close it up, and we have forty minutes, so let's get started. Oh, no, let's have the prototype presentation.
Industrial Designer: Mm'kay,
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: you ready?
User Interface: Um sure. You or me?
Industrial Designer: Y you read that stuff, since you wrote it.
User Interface: Okay. Well, since our materials aren't exactly what we were going for, I'm just gonna translate what this all means for you.
Industrial Designer: I'll be the Vanna.
User Interface: {vocalsound} The base is gonna be gunmetal gray, which is what we had decided, and it's gonna be plastic. Um then there's the latex cover, which is what you see as red. Um because it can be replaceable, we just kinda went with the colour.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: Um and then the buttons are actually kind of poking through rather than on top. Um and the buttons will be a l much lighter blue, almost see-through.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: It's just sort of a very pale blue and a light-up yellow.
Marketing: That's nice.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: The whole thing lights up if you press any button, rather than it {disfmarker} just that one button will light up.
Marketing: Good.
User Interface: Um and then at the bottom we have our logo. Um bright yellow sort of design with the R_R_ {vocalsound} which will actually look like our logo.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Great.
User Interface: And then on the side you have the buttons. {vocalsound} They're one button, but they kind of push up and down.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: I don't think they're scrolling.
Industrial Designer: No. They're just buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Right, yeah. And then {disfmarker} yeah, the buttons.
Industrial Designer: On off switch will be here and as you've noticed on our prototype um they've ended up with a curvature kind of, by concave sort of thing, except for, you know, {gap} can't see underneath.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So I'm hoping that when we get to production we can actually make them like that, because they're very nice to stock {gap} you know, stick your finger in. Um the two squared buttons are are two probably least used, menu, mute,
User Interface: Thumb-shaped.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and then these are the numbers, so our channel and our volume will be on either side.
User Interface: Yeah. And then the last thing is just that it'll be black labelling on top, just which we didn't do. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And did you determine um the curvature of the bottom part of it for the hand, is it gonna be a single or a double?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'd say a single.
Project Manager: Single. Single sounds good,
User Interface: Single.
Project Manager:'cause it's not big enough to really constitute a double.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's only actually the size of my hand.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Great. Great. I think you did an awesome job.
Marketing: Yeah, I think it's a beautiful {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It is beautiful, and it's everything that we discussed.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Good job, you guys.
Project Manager: Good job.
Industrial Designer: Whoohoo.
User Interface: Oh thank you. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Those are really good.
Project Manager: Alright {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: what's next in our agenda? Um we're gonna discuss the evaluation criteria, and that's with Courtney.
Marketing: Okay, it's a PowerPoint presentation. I don't really know exactly what we should uh talk about. It's under evaluation.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Alright. Um so these are the criteria we're gonna ask, is it easy to use, is it fashionable uh {disfmarker} yeah, I guess we should write these down so we can reference them.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Feel good meaning what?
Marketing: Like does it feel good, like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Physically,
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: okay.
Marketing: yeah, physically.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Sqi {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That's just for current trend.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It doesn't really count, you guys.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was a little difficult to incorporate the cover with the cherry fruit on it.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. But it's {disfmarker} so we do have removable covers, right?
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah, well then that's covered.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Marketing: And so we n k everybody have that?
Project Manager: I'll wait.
Marketing: Yeah, she's got it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: It's good. Yeah. Okay so, we're using the criteria uh for a seven point scale, and so we need to discuss how we feel. It falls within this range, so for easy to use, do we feel it's very easy to use?
Project Manager: Are we going to indi
User Interface: True or false, easy to use.
Project Manager: I say we individually rate {disfmarker} what do you say?
Marketing: You guys {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just orally.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Why not? We have {disfmarker} okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Um easy to use. I vote six.
Marketing: Oh wait, that's false.
Project Manager: Oh,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: two.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I'd say two as well.
User Interface: Yeah, two.
Marketing: Two. That's what I say.
Project Manager: Uh hello, we're great.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, fashionable?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um one.
Industrial Designer: At the moment, no.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: No. I mean like no, I think it's very fashionable.
Project Manager: Me too, very chic. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thi I would give it a one.
Project Manager: One, I give it a one.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll give it a two, because at the moment it's not looking that way.
Project Manager: Oh, and ma it's a prototype,
Marketing: Well, that's that's just like {disfmarker} that's a clay, it's a prototype.
Project Manager: right.
User Interface: Mm I don't think it's that fashionable.
Marketing: What do you think?
User Interface: I'd give it like three or four.
Project Manager: Well, now I'm {gap}.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: So, the average is about a two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But then I'm not fashionable, so
Marketing: Yeah, it's a two.
Project Manager: Two or three. Two point five.
User Interface: don't use my opinion.
Marketing: That's okay. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Neither are all o all the customers we have, either.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: does it feel good?
Project Manager: Imagine, since we obviously don't have that.
User Interface: Does it feel good?
Marketing: I feel like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh the shape of it actually does uh.
Project Manager: And it's i it is very ergonomically designed. It's gonna be curved.
User Interface: Yeah, it's gonna be thicker.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Depth.
Marketing: I think it feels good.
Project Manager: I think so too.
Marketing: I'll give it a two.
Project Manager:'Kay. Two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'll give it a one.
Marketing: What do you say?
Industrial Designer: I'd say a two.
Project Manager: Alright, average is two.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Is it technologically innovative? Oh sorry I'm taking over your job here.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh no, it's fine,
Project Manager: Go right ahead. {vocalsound}
Marketing: you're {disfmarker} I mean you're Project Manager.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um yeah, I mean and it {disfmarker} does it have voice {disfmarker} I mean the phrase recognition on it?
Project Manager: Yes. Right? We were able to do it with that kind of chip.
User Interface: Oh right, the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could do it with the chip, yes. It wasn't {disfmarker} we have no reflection of it on the prototype,
Marketing: And there's no way you can represent it on here. Y
Project Manager: Yeah, right.
Industrial Designer: but that's because it's only two dimensions, really.
Project Manager: That was {disfmarker}'kay. And we discussed that being included.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, so.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: Then yes, then I would {disfmarker} well it isn't {disfmarker} what else would it need for it to be technologically innovative?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well we don'have the {disfmarker} you know, we can't say channel, and it changes the channel, channel eight.
Marketing: And it doesn't cover anything other then T_V_,
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: so I'd probably give it a three.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Even though it is {disfmarker} for just a T_V_ remote it's uh very advanced. But it is just a T_V_ remote.
Project Manager: Yeah. I'd go for a three or four on that one, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I go four.
Project Manager: okay, let's go for a three point five.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Three and an half.
Project Manager: Alright, and the last criteria {disfmarker} is it is it um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Squishy and fruity.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well yeah, so I'd give it a two.
Project Manager: Well, we've covered that with the
User Interface: It's just trendy, basically.
Project Manager: trendy. Sure. Capable. Very capable.
Industrial Designer: It's capable of being squishy and fruity.
Marketing: Oh, it's very capable of being squishy and fruity.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: And {vocalsound} it's very important.'Kay, there we go.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So.
Marketing: Okay, next.
Project Manager: Next. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So um our re model slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie appears to be a winner,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and uh hopefully we'll sell millions. Good job, team. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} How did you get that in there?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What?
Industrial Designer: The {vocalsound} slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It does.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It {vocalsound} it does. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That was good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Very good.
Marketing: Thanks.
Project Manager: Alright, let's go back to this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No, that's it. Hmm. Oops. Okay, so now uh we're moving on to finance, okay. I'm gonna show you an Excel spreadsheet and we're going to fill it in together based on what components we're including in our remote and see if it's under twelve fifty Euro. If so, we can proceed, if not, we need to go back to the drawing board a little bit.'Kay? So let me bring that up. Here we go. Alright. Um it's not hand dynamo, it's powered by battery, so we give it a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Two.
Project Manager: Number of components you plan to use. Do I just put quantity being one battery, or {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm'kay.
Project Manager: But if it's a {disfmarker} do you wanna go for {disfmarker} this is where we need to make a final call on if it's a lithium or do we wanna go triple A_s,'cause triple A_s we're gonna have t do more than one battery. Oh, let's just go for a lithium. What do you say?
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, let's let's do a lithium.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think uh I think the people who purchase this are gonna be technologically
Industrial Designer: it's {gap}.
Marketing: We're gon that's gon Nologically advanced,
Project Manager: {disfmarker} right.
Marketing: yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, down to the electronics um section. We're gonna need this kind, correct, if we do the voice sensor,
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so one of those. It is a single-curved, so one of those.
Marketing: Uh {gap}.
Project Manager: Oh. What's that? Yeah, that's correct.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay, down here, case material.
User Interface: It's plastic.
Marketing: We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Plastic.
Marketing: plastic.
User Interface: And special colour.
Marketing: And special colour.
Project Manager:'Kay. {vocalsound} Down here, interface type. We're gonna have the integrated scroll scroll wheel.
User Interface: No, we don't have the scroll.
Project Manager: Isn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: oh those are just regular buttons.
Industrial Designer: Well, that's the push-button too, right there.
User Interface: Buttons.
Marketing: But it's {disfmarker} Yeah,
Project Manager: This?
Marketing: but i so i
Industrial Designer: Integrated scroll-wheel or push-button.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're really having just push-button interface.
Project Manager: Okay, so we can just go {disfmarker} um.
Marketing: But will we w actually we'll need two, won't we? One for the top and then one for the s one e for each side.
Industrial Designer: But it {disfmarker} that just covers the type of button we're having. Because we're not doing a scroll on the side, it's still push-button.
User Interface: Oh like the {disfmarker} twenty nine means like you have both scrolls and
Industrial Designer: Push-button.
Project Manager: Right I think she's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But we just have push
User Interface: push-buttons.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: But we don't have any scrolls.
Project Manager: I think what Courtney's talking about is do we need to put two here?
Marketing: Like because there's like one interface right here and then {disfmarker} because it's not gonna be on the same plane when you press the button.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: There's gonna have to be additional signals on the sides.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: So is that gonna be an extra one on each side?
Project Manager: I don't know, they might put us {disfmarker} well, let's just.
User Interface: Two interfaces, is that what w should we s say?
Project Manager: Two or would it be three?
Industrial Designer: Let's call it th
Marketing: Or three, because of one on each side and one on top.
User Interface: Okay, fine. Yeah.
Marketing: I mean it's fine'cause it comes out the same as twenty nine. Well less than twenty nine even.
Project Manager: Okay
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: and we're gonna {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: button supplements {disfmarker} the buttons are no uh okay.
Marketing: They're a special colour. Um they're uh they're a special form,'cause they're indented.
Project Manager: Are they? Oh, right.
User Interface: And then s
Marketing: And, they're a special material.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Mm. Well, we're under cost then. Alright.
User Interface: We're over?
Project Manager: No, we're under.
Industrial Designer: Grand.
Marketing: We're under.
Project Manager: Twelve point five is our limit.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: We've got eleven point two.
User Interface: Oh, I see.
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: So we can go to production.
Project Manager: We can go to {disfmarker} I dunno what I just did. {vocalsound} Okay. Now we're gonna talk about the project process um and whether or not we're satisfied with the whole process and the result. Um did we have a lot of room for creativity? Did we have a lot of room for individual leadership, um teamwork, and the means, meaning the technology that we used to produce our little guy there, and if we found any new ideas. Now, question is, how do we do this?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Go back.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we just discuss it.
Project Manager: Discuss, sure.
Industrial Designer: Previous.
Project Manager: Alright. Who want who would like to go first?
Industrial Designer: We think we got stifled for cri {vocalsound} creativity by the company itself, in restricting us only to using a T_V_ remote, initially.
User Interface: We didn't have a whiteboard.
Project Manager: Hmm. Hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh that's true.
User Interface: And no internet.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} No, yeah, that's a good point.'Cause I'd forgotten that that wasn't our decision, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And how did you feel about the whole the whole process though?
Marketing: Oh, overall I mean I thought we did a good job like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We got to choose {disfmarker} basically we had control over {disfmarker} minus it being just merely a T_V_ remote we got to choose what we wanted to do with it.
Project Manager: Right, and we got say over what {disfmarker} how technologically advanced it should be and also how fashionable, which I kind of like {disfmarker}
Marketing: And we're a fashion forward technology company.
Project Manager: we {disfmarker} yep. You know it.
Industrial Designer: {gap} right.
Project Manager: Um what about um the teamwork aspect? How did you guys enjoy making the model, the prototype?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: I think we did well.
Project Manager: I think ya'did. Did you work well together in there, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'kay.
Industrial Designer: Well, no, there was there was scratching and fighting, but {disfmarker} no {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Minus that one fight.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Gouges.
Project Manager: Oh my God,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and we've all been a pretty congenial team here, I think.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We hadn't had any ma fallings out.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. I mean minus you guys being wha what is it, the survey, annoying or what is it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Irritating.
Industrial Designer: Irritating. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Irritating.
Marketing: Irritating, yeah. Wow that's a {disfmarker} it's definitely a strong one.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: The means, the whiteboard didn't work. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: And no internet.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I have to knock that one down a couple notches.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A and our friend here really feels strongly about the internet. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, and no internet.
User Interface: Misses. I do.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: There's so much available.
Marketing: And the digital the digital pens
User Interface: Like it's information
Project Manager: Yeah, digital pens.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I really appreciated those, yeah.
Marketing: were {disfmarker} they were pretty cool.
Project Manager: They were fine.
Marketing: Yeah they were fun, even though I'm not really sure what I could do with them, but they are awesome. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The use of the laptops for receiving everything.
Project Manager: Right, laptops are extremely handy,
Industrial Designer: It was wireless too, so.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: wireless. And that we have a shared network where we can put all of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: And these things whoa.
Industrial Designer: And let's not forget the sexy dual microphones everyone gets to wear.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. And Big Brother.
Project Manager: Big brother.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, have we found any new ideas through this process?
Marketing: Um we are really gonna sell this.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ta-da.
Project Manager: For something that looks cool and also has what I want it to b do technologically.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And that's your right brain taking over, w wanting the artistic, the fashionable, the hip, you know.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: If we all just went out and bought useful things, I don't think {disfmarker} I mean that's not what technology.
User Interface: Well, that's why I don't like uh Macs or Apples, just'cause I look at it, and I know it's probably a very good computer, but I look at it, and I'm taken back to elementary school,'cause they look the same.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: They look like they did when I was in elementary school,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and that's so old-fashioned to me.
Marketing: Yeah,'cause they're pretty and just like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The Toronto district school would only use his Macs with their kids.
User Interface: Exactly, so I associate them with like really low-tech, really cheap, bad {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Just the Mac font bothers me even.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Uh yeah.
Project Manager: But I do like iPods, go figure.
Marketing: Yeah, no, iPods {vocalsound} {disfmarker} They want all those words for presentation, even the plugs.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well, i iPods are now quite trendy,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and they come in different colours.
Project Manager: Colours. Exactly. I mean how many people went out and bough a Nokia phone, back when we were like in high school, just so they could get the changeable face plates.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh yeah, everybody.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Anyway, so that is definitely at work.
Industrial Designer: Not me.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mine is amber.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't have a phone'til university.
User Interface: But the {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} but my one issue is just like the whole it's for T_V_ only.
Marketing: Oh.
User Interface: I was like who's gonna buy a remote just for the T_V_ unless they've lost theirs.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Look at it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fashionable chic people will.
User Interface: You're kidding.
Marketing: That is a piece of work.
User Interface: No, no.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wow. Marketing Director says yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} No, marketing has to actually create the desire for it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fashionable people will buy it. Oh, I will create desire. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's okay. We can create a commercial where they think that all their needs will be met. This will help them find the one.
User Interface: Ri {vocalsound} They'll be sexy with it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: We could have like an Adam and Eve type commercial, and that's the fig-leaf.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh right.
Marketing: Mm. {vocalsound} That'll sell.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And so the serpent says, use our remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There you go, marketing {gap}.
User Interface: Let you loose.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, no.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, we're gonna wrap this up now. Um the costs are within the budget, we evaluated the project,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and now we're gonna complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary, and then we're going to have a big giant party, apparently, according to this, so. Alright, thank you team,
Industrial Designer: Whoohoo. Margaritas for everyone. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you did a great job, it was lovely working with you.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good.
Marketing: You too.
Industrial Designer: Yay. Thanks to the Project Leader.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Now we know w | Marketing first wanted to check whether the remote was going to have the phrase recognition function. This function was not reflected on the model they were seeing, but User Interface and Industrial Designer confirmed that it could be realized with a special chip. Marketing thus decided that the remote was technologically innovative enough. Since the remote was only designed for TVs, it was rated 3 by Marketing, 3 or 4 by Project Manager, and 4 by User Interface. With an average of 3. 5, they agreed that the remote had reasonable technological innovation and was sufficient for their project. | qmsum |
What aspects did the team like when evaluating the whole production process?
Marketing: I wanna find our if our remote works.
Project Manager: Me too. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Um here's the agenda for our last meeting.
Marketing: Whoohoo.
Project Manager: Um after the opening we're going to have a prototype presentation, then we're going to discuss the evaluation criteria and the financing of our remote. Then we're going to evaluate the product and I think the whole production process, and then we're gonna close it up, and we have forty minutes, so let's get started. Oh, no, let's have the prototype presentation.
Industrial Designer: Mm'kay,
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: you ready?
User Interface: Um sure. You or me?
Industrial Designer: Y you read that stuff, since you wrote it.
User Interface: Okay. Well, since our materials aren't exactly what we were going for, I'm just gonna translate what this all means for you.
Industrial Designer: I'll be the Vanna.
User Interface: {vocalsound} The base is gonna be gunmetal gray, which is what we had decided, and it's gonna be plastic. Um then there's the latex cover, which is what you see as red. Um because it can be replaceable, we just kinda went with the colour.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: Um and then the buttons are actually kind of poking through rather than on top. Um and the buttons will be a l much lighter blue, almost see-through.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: It's just sort of a very pale blue and a light-up yellow.
Marketing: That's nice.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: The whole thing lights up if you press any button, rather than it {disfmarker} just that one button will light up.
Marketing: Good.
User Interface: Um and then at the bottom we have our logo. Um bright yellow sort of design with the R_R_ {vocalsound} which will actually look like our logo.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Great.
User Interface: And then on the side you have the buttons. {vocalsound} They're one button, but they kind of push up and down.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: I don't think they're scrolling.
Industrial Designer: No. They're just buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Right, yeah. And then {disfmarker} yeah, the buttons.
Industrial Designer: On off switch will be here and as you've noticed on our prototype um they've ended up with a curvature kind of, by concave sort of thing, except for, you know, {gap} can't see underneath.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So I'm hoping that when we get to production we can actually make them like that, because they're very nice to stock {gap} you know, stick your finger in. Um the two squared buttons are are two probably least used, menu, mute,
User Interface: Thumb-shaped.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and then these are the numbers, so our channel and our volume will be on either side.
User Interface: Yeah. And then the last thing is just that it'll be black labelling on top, just which we didn't do. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And did you determine um the curvature of the bottom part of it for the hand, is it gonna be a single or a double?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'd say a single.
Project Manager: Single. Single sounds good,
User Interface: Single.
Project Manager:'cause it's not big enough to really constitute a double.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's only actually the size of my hand.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Great. Great. I think you did an awesome job.
Marketing: Yeah, I think it's a beautiful {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It is beautiful, and it's everything that we discussed.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Good job, you guys.
Project Manager: Good job.
Industrial Designer: Whoohoo.
User Interface: Oh thank you. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Those are really good.
Project Manager: Alright {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: what's next in our agenda? Um we're gonna discuss the evaluation criteria, and that's with Courtney.
Marketing: Okay, it's a PowerPoint presentation. I don't really know exactly what we should uh talk about. It's under evaluation.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Alright. Um so these are the criteria we're gonna ask, is it easy to use, is it fashionable uh {disfmarker} yeah, I guess we should write these down so we can reference them.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Feel good meaning what?
Marketing: Like does it feel good, like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Physically,
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: okay.
Marketing: yeah, physically.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Sqi {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That's just for current trend.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It doesn't really count, you guys.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was a little difficult to incorporate the cover with the cherry fruit on it.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. But it's {disfmarker} so we do have removable covers, right?
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah, well then that's covered.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Marketing: And so we n k everybody have that?
Project Manager: I'll wait.
Marketing: Yeah, she's got it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: It's good. Yeah. Okay so, we're using the criteria uh for a seven point scale, and so we need to discuss how we feel. It falls within this range, so for easy to use, do we feel it's very easy to use?
Project Manager: Are we going to indi
User Interface: True or false, easy to use.
Project Manager: I say we individually rate {disfmarker} what do you say?
Marketing: You guys {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just orally.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Why not? We have {disfmarker} okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Um easy to use. I vote six.
Marketing: Oh wait, that's false.
Project Manager: Oh,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: two.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I'd say two as well.
User Interface: Yeah, two.
Marketing: Two. That's what I say.
Project Manager: Uh hello, we're great.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, fashionable?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um one.
Industrial Designer: At the moment, no.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: No. I mean like no, I think it's very fashionable.
Project Manager: Me too, very chic. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thi I would give it a one.
Project Manager: One, I give it a one.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll give it a two, because at the moment it's not looking that way.
Project Manager: Oh, and ma it's a prototype,
Marketing: Well, that's that's just like {disfmarker} that's a clay, it's a prototype.
Project Manager: right.
User Interface: Mm I don't think it's that fashionable.
Marketing: What do you think?
User Interface: I'd give it like three or four.
Project Manager: Well, now I'm {gap}.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: So, the average is about a two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But then I'm not fashionable, so
Marketing: Yeah, it's a two.
Project Manager: Two or three. Two point five.
User Interface: don't use my opinion.
Marketing: That's okay. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Neither are all o all the customers we have, either.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: does it feel good?
Project Manager: Imagine, since we obviously don't have that.
User Interface: Does it feel good?
Marketing: I feel like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh the shape of it actually does uh.
Project Manager: And it's i it is very ergonomically designed. It's gonna be curved.
User Interface: Yeah, it's gonna be thicker.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Depth.
Marketing: I think it feels good.
Project Manager: I think so too.
Marketing: I'll give it a two.
Project Manager:'Kay. Two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'll give it a one.
Marketing: What do you say?
Industrial Designer: I'd say a two.
Project Manager: Alright, average is two.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Is it technologically innovative? Oh sorry I'm taking over your job here.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh no, it's fine,
Project Manager: Go right ahead. {vocalsound}
Marketing: you're {disfmarker} I mean you're Project Manager.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um yeah, I mean and it {disfmarker} does it have voice {disfmarker} I mean the phrase recognition on it?
Project Manager: Yes. Right? We were able to do it with that kind of chip.
User Interface: Oh right, the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could do it with the chip, yes. It wasn't {disfmarker} we have no reflection of it on the prototype,
Marketing: And there's no way you can represent it on here. Y
Project Manager: Yeah, right.
Industrial Designer: but that's because it's only two dimensions, really.
Project Manager: That was {disfmarker}'kay. And we discussed that being included.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, so.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: Then yes, then I would {disfmarker} well it isn't {disfmarker} what else would it need for it to be technologically innovative?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well we don'have the {disfmarker} you know, we can't say channel, and it changes the channel, channel eight.
Marketing: And it doesn't cover anything other then T_V_,
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: so I'd probably give it a three.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Even though it is {disfmarker} for just a T_V_ remote it's uh very advanced. But it is just a T_V_ remote.
Project Manager: Yeah. I'd go for a three or four on that one, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I go four.
Project Manager: okay, let's go for a three point five.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Three and an half.
Project Manager: Alright, and the last criteria {disfmarker} is it is it um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Squishy and fruity.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well yeah, so I'd give it a two.
Project Manager: Well, we've covered that with the
User Interface: It's just trendy, basically.
Project Manager: trendy. Sure. Capable. Very capable.
Industrial Designer: It's capable of being squishy and fruity.
Marketing: Oh, it's very capable of being squishy and fruity.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: And {vocalsound} it's very important.'Kay, there we go.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So.
Marketing: Okay, next.
Project Manager: Next. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So um our re model slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie appears to be a winner,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and uh hopefully we'll sell millions. Good job, team. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} How did you get that in there?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What?
Industrial Designer: The {vocalsound} slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It does.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It {vocalsound} it does. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That was good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Very good.
Marketing: Thanks.
Project Manager: Alright, let's go back to this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No, that's it. Hmm. Oops. Okay, so now uh we're moving on to finance, okay. I'm gonna show you an Excel spreadsheet and we're going to fill it in together based on what components we're including in our remote and see if it's under twelve fifty Euro. If so, we can proceed, if not, we need to go back to the drawing board a little bit.'Kay? So let me bring that up. Here we go. Alright. Um it's not hand dynamo, it's powered by battery, so we give it a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Two.
Project Manager: Number of components you plan to use. Do I just put quantity being one battery, or {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm'kay.
Project Manager: But if it's a {disfmarker} do you wanna go for {disfmarker} this is where we need to make a final call on if it's a lithium or do we wanna go triple A_s,'cause triple A_s we're gonna have t do more than one battery. Oh, let's just go for a lithium. What do you say?
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, let's let's do a lithium.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think uh I think the people who purchase this are gonna be technologically
Industrial Designer: it's {gap}.
Marketing: We're gon that's gon Nologically advanced,
Project Manager: {disfmarker} right.
Marketing: yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, down to the electronics um section. We're gonna need this kind, correct, if we do the voice sensor,
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so one of those. It is a single-curved, so one of those.
Marketing: Uh {gap}.
Project Manager: Oh. What's that? Yeah, that's correct.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay, down here, case material.
User Interface: It's plastic.
Marketing: We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Plastic.
Marketing: plastic.
User Interface: And special colour.
Marketing: And special colour.
Project Manager:'Kay. {vocalsound} Down here, interface type. We're gonna have the integrated scroll scroll wheel.
User Interface: No, we don't have the scroll.
Project Manager: Isn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: oh those are just regular buttons.
Industrial Designer: Well, that's the push-button too, right there.
User Interface: Buttons.
Marketing: But it's {disfmarker} Yeah,
Project Manager: This?
Marketing: but i so i
Industrial Designer: Integrated scroll-wheel or push-button.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're really having just push-button interface.
Project Manager: Okay, so we can just go {disfmarker} um.
Marketing: But will we w actually we'll need two, won't we? One for the top and then one for the s one e for each side.
Industrial Designer: But it {disfmarker} that just covers the type of button we're having. Because we're not doing a scroll on the side, it's still push-button.
User Interface: Oh like the {disfmarker} twenty nine means like you have both scrolls and
Industrial Designer: Push-button.
Project Manager: Right I think she's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But we just have push
User Interface: push-buttons.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: But we don't have any scrolls.
Project Manager: I think what Courtney's talking about is do we need to put two here?
Marketing: Like because there's like one interface right here and then {disfmarker} because it's not gonna be on the same plane when you press the button.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: There's gonna have to be additional signals on the sides.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: So is that gonna be an extra one on each side?
Project Manager: I don't know, they might put us {disfmarker} well, let's just.
User Interface: Two interfaces, is that what w should we s say?
Project Manager: Two or would it be three?
Industrial Designer: Let's call it th
Marketing: Or three, because of one on each side and one on top.
User Interface: Okay, fine. Yeah.
Marketing: I mean it's fine'cause it comes out the same as twenty nine. Well less than twenty nine even.
Project Manager: Okay
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: and we're gonna {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: button supplements {disfmarker} the buttons are no uh okay.
Marketing: They're a special colour. Um they're uh they're a special form,'cause they're indented.
Project Manager: Are they? Oh, right.
User Interface: And then s
Marketing: And, they're a special material.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Mm. Well, we're under cost then. Alright.
User Interface: We're over?
Project Manager: No, we're under.
Industrial Designer: Grand.
Marketing: We're under.
Project Manager: Twelve point five is our limit.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: We've got eleven point two.
User Interface: Oh, I see.
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: So we can go to production.
Project Manager: We can go to {disfmarker} I dunno what I just did. {vocalsound} Okay. Now we're gonna talk about the project process um and whether or not we're satisfied with the whole process and the result. Um did we have a lot of room for creativity? Did we have a lot of room for individual leadership, um teamwork, and the means, meaning the technology that we used to produce our little guy there, and if we found any new ideas. Now, question is, how do we do this?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Go back.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we just discuss it.
Project Manager: Discuss, sure.
Industrial Designer: Previous.
Project Manager: Alright. Who want who would like to go first?
Industrial Designer: We think we got stifled for cri {vocalsound} creativity by the company itself, in restricting us only to using a T_V_ remote, initially.
User Interface: We didn't have a whiteboard.
Project Manager: Hmm. Hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh that's true.
User Interface: And no internet.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} No, yeah, that's a good point.'Cause I'd forgotten that that wasn't our decision, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And how did you feel about the whole the whole process though?
Marketing: Oh, overall I mean I thought we did a good job like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We got to choose {disfmarker} basically we had control over {disfmarker} minus it being just merely a T_V_ remote we got to choose what we wanted to do with it.
Project Manager: Right, and we got say over what {disfmarker} how technologically advanced it should be and also how fashionable, which I kind of like {disfmarker}
Marketing: And we're a fashion forward technology company.
Project Manager: we {disfmarker} yep. You know it.
Industrial Designer: {gap} right.
Project Manager: Um what about um the teamwork aspect? How did you guys enjoy making the model, the prototype?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: I think we did well.
Project Manager: I think ya'did. Did you work well together in there, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'kay.
Industrial Designer: Well, no, there was there was scratching and fighting, but {disfmarker} no {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Minus that one fight.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Gouges.
Project Manager: Oh my God,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and we've all been a pretty congenial team here, I think.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We hadn't had any ma fallings out.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. I mean minus you guys being wha what is it, the survey, annoying or what is it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Irritating.
Industrial Designer: Irritating. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Irritating.
Marketing: Irritating, yeah. Wow that's a {disfmarker} it's definitely a strong one.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: The means, the whiteboard didn't work. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: And no internet.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I have to knock that one down a couple notches.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A and our friend here really feels strongly about the internet. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, and no internet.
User Interface: Misses. I do.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: There's so much available.
Marketing: And the digital the digital pens
User Interface: Like it's information
Project Manager: Yeah, digital pens.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I really appreciated those, yeah.
Marketing: were {disfmarker} they were pretty cool.
Project Manager: They were fine.
Marketing: Yeah they were fun, even though I'm not really sure what I could do with them, but they are awesome. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The use of the laptops for receiving everything.
Project Manager: Right, laptops are extremely handy,
Industrial Designer: It was wireless too, so.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: wireless. And that we have a shared network where we can put all of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: And these things whoa.
Industrial Designer: And let's not forget the sexy dual microphones everyone gets to wear.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. And Big Brother.
Project Manager: Big brother.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, have we found any new ideas through this process?
Marketing: Um we are really gonna sell this.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ta-da.
Project Manager: For something that looks cool and also has what I want it to b do technologically.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And that's your right brain taking over, w wanting the artistic, the fashionable, the hip, you know.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: If we all just went out and bought useful things, I don't think {disfmarker} I mean that's not what technology.
User Interface: Well, that's why I don't like uh Macs or Apples, just'cause I look at it, and I know it's probably a very good computer, but I look at it, and I'm taken back to elementary school,'cause they look the same.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: They look like they did when I was in elementary school,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and that's so old-fashioned to me.
Marketing: Yeah,'cause they're pretty and just like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The Toronto district school would only use his Macs with their kids.
User Interface: Exactly, so I associate them with like really low-tech, really cheap, bad {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Just the Mac font bothers me even.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Uh yeah.
Project Manager: But I do like iPods, go figure.
Marketing: Yeah, no, iPods {vocalsound} {disfmarker} They want all those words for presentation, even the plugs.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well, i iPods are now quite trendy,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and they come in different colours.
Project Manager: Colours. Exactly. I mean how many people went out and bough a Nokia phone, back when we were like in high school, just so they could get the changeable face plates.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh yeah, everybody.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Anyway, so that is definitely at work.
Industrial Designer: Not me.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mine is amber.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't have a phone'til university.
User Interface: But the {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} but my one issue is just like the whole it's for T_V_ only.
Marketing: Oh.
User Interface: I was like who's gonna buy a remote just for the T_V_ unless they've lost theirs.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Look at it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fashionable chic people will.
User Interface: You're kidding.
Marketing: That is a piece of work.
User Interface: No, no.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wow. Marketing Director says yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} No, marketing has to actually create the desire for it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fashionable people will buy it. Oh, I will create desire. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's okay. We can create a commercial where they think that all their needs will be met. This will help them find the one.
User Interface: Ri {vocalsound} They'll be sexy with it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: We could have like an Adam and Eve type commercial, and that's the fig-leaf.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh right.
Marketing: Mm. {vocalsound} That'll sell.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And so the serpent says, use our remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There you go, marketing {gap}.
User Interface: Let you loose.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, no.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, we're gonna wrap this up now. Um the costs are within the budget, we evaluated the project,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and now we're gonna complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary, and then we're going to have a big giant party, apparently, according to this, so. Alright, thank you team,
Industrial Designer: Whoohoo. Margaritas for everyone. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you did a great job, it was lovely working with you.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good.
Marketing: You too.
Industrial Designer: Yay. Thanks to the Project Leader.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Now we know w | Marketing commented on the overall process as fairly satisfying, since they had control over most of the detailed design of the remote, how it should be advanced as well as fashionable. As for teamwork, Industrial Designer and User Interface thought they worked well together, and Project Manager praised the team for being congenial. They also appreciated many things that were available to them, including digital pens, wireless laptops, a shared network, dual microphones, and Big Brother. They agreed that many new ideas were developed as well. | qmsum |
Summarize the features of remote control which left users with a bad experience.
Industrial Designer: Now what.
Project Manager:'Kay, hello everybody. Uh, I guess you all know what is it about, you all received the email, I guess. Uh, we are actually doing this meeting to start a new project which is about designing a remote control. So I'm going to be the project manager of this uh project. And uh so I'm {disfmarker} present myself. I'm Fabien Cardinaux and uh I I guess you can present yourself. So I dunno, you can starts.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay, so my name is Petre {gap}. You can call me Petre {gap}, or Peter if you like. I don't care {gap}.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Uh my name's Bob Mor.
Project Manager: And you are? In the project?
Industrial Designer: Uh, in the project I'm supposed to be the technic.
Marketing: Oh, sorry.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing:'Kay. So my name's Bob Morris. I'm the Marketing Expert for this project.
Industrial Designer: Bob,
Marketing: Bob yeah.
Industrial Designer: okay.
User Interface: My name is Hamed Getabdar, and uh I'm going to be Interface Designer in this project.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So, uh, so today we are doing a short meeting to present the project, so um We are gooding we are going to present the tool we are {vocalsound} we are going to use during all this project. We are talking about the project plan, and we are going to to discuss about st our first ideas and so on, and, yeah. So we have around twenty five minutes to do this meeting. Um. So what is the goal of this project? Is to design a new remote control. So it should be, of course, new and original, and um it should be trendy, and user friendly. That mean it's a very challenging project, and uh uh. So w it's {disfmarker} we will try to do our best, and hopefully come with something very new and that people want to buy. So, um {disfmarker} So what's uh what are we going to do during this all this project? So it's more like we are going to do inv individual work all in o in o our specialities and we are going to meet each other quite often to discuss and to find a good way. Um. Yeah and everything is {disfmarker} will be like this. Um so now we are going to to get used t to to the tools we are going to use all {disfmarker} during all this project. So we can try to use uh the whiteboard here. So {gap} uh.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: For example we can try to write what is our our favourite animal and write the f our favourite characteristics about it. Mm. Uh {vocalsound}. So uh {disfmarker} {gap} So I will ask you all to do the same.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Just to get used to the whiteboard.
Industrial Designer: So probably I would try to try to draw the animal. Well sh should I draw the picture of the animal?
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah, you can draw the picture, of course {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: I I th I think I should.
Marketing: Yeah go ahead.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so. Um {vocalsound}. Okay, American, um. Um. I would use the bird. So I tried to sketch it out. I had to first uh write it down because I am not absolutely sure if I can draw it, but ah. Can you recognise it {vocalsound} as a bird?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay {vocalsound} it's your turn to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, okay. {vocalsound} So I think my favourite animal would be a c a cat.
Project Manager: Oh.
Marketing: That's its head.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um I probably like cats the most because they're cuddly and furry and uh playful.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: I dunno if I should go with this {gap} {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Oh it's okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thanks. {vocalsound}
User Interface: If it is enough line.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Maybe put it up
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {disfmarker} Put it a Maybe put it on the desk or something.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I should get used to the tool, so.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh just wait {gap} a little bit. C could we put it here, to make it as straight as possible?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah probably not.
User Interface: {vocalsound} They should be remote.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay, it {disfmarker} it works like this.
Marketing: Uh, that's better.
User Interface: Okay, thanks.
Marketing: Your lapel microphone's fallen off.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Are you left-handed?
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: Oh, pity {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Okay. Should I clean? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, I think like horses uh because they are strong and beautiful, so if I want to write it here, I think I can. {vocalsound} Oh {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Never mind. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah, it's maybe better if you leave it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we should just continue.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, don't worry about it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: {gap}, no worry.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: You won't draw them, or?
Project Manager: You can draw it, if you want. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno if I can.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just try. I would like to see how it looks like.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It may be like a cow or I dunno, whatever.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not good very good in drawing. Okay, so this is very {vocalsound} {disfmarker} It's a bird, I think. I dunno what is it. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No, I think it's clear.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Four. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. I'm shameful {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh that's good, it's good.
Industrial Designer: It's okay. It's in it's indeed beautiful.
Project Manager: Good.
Marketing: Yeah, and strong. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bob. Have to remember it. Bob.
Project Manager: So good um {disfmarker} So, let's talk about money. Uh we are going to to sell {disfmarker} we want to sell uh this remote control for twenty five Euro Euro. And uh our expected profit will be around fifty million Euro. And uh we are trying to to have a market all around the world. So {gap} n not only for Switzerland, but for the world. Uh. So, um. The {disfmarker} We expect a production cost of maximum uh twelve point fifty Euro.
Industrial Designer: Per unit, I guess.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, of course.
Industrial Designer: Y oh okay.
Project Manager: Um, so we can start today to have a first idea of what we want to do what are our experiments with remote control, and any idea? So, if you have some experience, good or bad, with remote controls you can share it and say what you f what is your idea. Anything.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Well, from experience, um I've had remote controls in the past that have had very {disfmarker} they've had lots and lots of buttons and they've been very small, and it's been very hard to to to use, because there's so many buttons, and you know it's very hard to see which buttons do what, and the buttons are very small and very hard to press. Um and and normally you only every use, you know, on a T_V_ remote you only ever use, mostly, you know, f four or f six buttons. Um.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Marketing: So it's frustrated me in the past, th that.
Industrial Designer: Okay, I have also some points uh. Maybe two points. Uh first would be that in current remote controls there is no back light {vocalsound}, so if you are if you are uh playing with this in the dark room it's it's probably worth to to have something like uh back light.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And maybe it could be also dependant on the the amount of of light in the room, so that if if it's in the day it doesn't need to be back lighted because it works on the battery, so. So something like this. And the second thing, f second point from me would be that in a normal remote control there is uh {disfmarker} there are two buttons for volume control.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But I prefer like a potential-meter or something like.
Marketing: Ah, okay. Okay.
Industrial Designer: You know, some slider or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Not just two discrete buttons for volume,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Okay, n {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but something which {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Marketing: Is that because the {disfmarker} of the discrete volume levels, or is that
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but I can reach {disfmarker} In uh one second I can mute it down, or or make a high volume.
Project Manager: {gap} Are you not afraid that if you take your remote control you can move the slide and it could {gap} {disfmarker} the the volume can go up very quickly
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Ah, n.
Project Manager: and it can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: If it drops to the floor then it starts to scream {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah, also if y when you take the the remote control, for example on the table, you take it and you push the button and everything is very loud, and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f It depends what what you feel about that.
Project Manager: you have a heart attack {vocalsound}. Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we can we can think of these things afterwards, but if {gap} you have some more notes on that.
Project Manager: Yeah so you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I {disfmarker} Yeah,
Project Manager: Do you have something?
User Interface: just a simple experience. I uh I prefer um remote control working with radio waves, because remote control working with infra-red rays you should you should you should keep it in a specific direction and then try it hard to tune {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Yeah without obstacles and {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay. Let's continue.
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: I have a meeting in five minutes, so maybe we should hurry.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Um. So we will close uh this meeting.
Industrial Designer: Okay, just a second. {gap}
Project Manager: So we will have a next meeting in uh thirty minutes.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um. Uh. The {disfmarker} So I will ask you to do some work. Uh the the interface interface developer will work on the on the design of the remote control, start to to have new idea and
Industrial Designer: Which i which is Hamed, {gap}?
Project Manager: read about {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: He's the Industrial Designer? No, you're the Industrial Designer.
Industrial Designer: Uh I am the Technical Designer,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: I dunno which one, uh v.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Industry and {disfmarker} Oh.
Marketing: I think that's the first. I_D_. Industrial Designer.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Marketing: And the second one is the User Interface Designer.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: User Interf Okay.
Marketing: And then last one's marketing, which is me.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so I'm the first one.
Project Manager: So, um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: For the User Interface Designer, which is Hamed um,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: uh, you are going to work on the technical functions of the remote control.
Industrial Designer: I see.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: And for the Marketing uh Manager, I dunno, okay, which is Bob, uh you are going to try to to find the user requirements f uh for the remote control. Um, you will receive by email uh the specific instructions and uh by your personal coach.
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} Sign.
Project Manager: Yep finished. So I see you in thirty minutes.
Marketing: Great, okay.
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Okay, thanks.
Marketing: Thanks guys. Bye.
User Interface: Bye.
Project Manager: Thank you.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Uh. {gap} | When there are many buttons on the remote control, it's hard to see each buttons'function and it's hard to press small buttons. Remote control without backlight was inconvenient to use in a dark room. Remote control without a potential-meter for volume control couldn't be used to mute the TV down or make a high volume in a second. When using remote control working with infra-red rays, users should keep it in a specific direction and it's hard to tune. | qmsum |
What did Dr. David Blaney think of the impact of Brexit on the capacity of Wales'higher education system?
Gareth Rogers: Good morning, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Unfortunately, the Chair is unable to attend today, so in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22 I call for nominations for a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting.
Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.
Gareth Rogers: Thank you.
Darren Millar AM: I'll second that nomination.
Gareth Rogers: As there's only one nomination, I declare that John Griffiths has been appointed as temporary Chair. Thank you, John.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you all very much, and item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've received apologies from Hefin David and Lynne Neagle. There are no substitutions. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2, and our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education, and our first evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales here today, and Dr David Blaney as chief executive, and Bethan Owen, director of institutional engagement. Welcome to you both. Thanks for coming along to give evidence today. If it's okay with you, we'll move straight to questions, and Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Good morning. Bore da. I wondered if we could start off with you telling us what evidence you can see that the Brexit process has had any impact on Welsh higher education so far.
Dr David Blaney: Can I preface the response by just reminding you that we are, by contract and by role, apolitical, and a lot of the judgments about the impact of Brexit essentially reflect where people sit politically in terms of whether they think it's a good thing or a bad thing? We're not going to go there, obviously, today, so we'll stick to the facts as we can see them, and hopefully we'll be able to help you, but there are areas where we are unable to help. That's part of the reason.
John Griffiths AM: We certainly do not expect you to enter the political fray in any way.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you. But even in terms of your assessment of whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing, a good impact or a bad impact, some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it, so we will be as careful as we can be on that. In terms of the impact of Brexit on higher education, clearly, the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales. So, we fund provision; we don't fund providers, technically, although obviously there's not much provision without providers. So, we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers, but fundamentally the issue is: what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales, and what impact might Brexit have on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales? So, we know that universities make annually about PS5 billion of impact; 50,000 jobs. Of course, in Wales, all of that economic impact is really very significant, and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment. That has an impact in a number of ways. We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU, so EU students, structural funds, and EU research funding, and so on, from the EU. We can identify some of that, but, actually, what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about. We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I'll ask Bethan to share some details on that in a moment. We're also beginning to pick up, only anecdotally, some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector, and the Welsh sector as part of that, in playing in some of the EU collaborative research activities. And that, I think, just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period. We don't have data on that--that's anecdotal--but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult. In terms of the financial impact of that, clearly, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of the money--we're almost immediately straight into politics if you're not careful--but some of the money will be available back to the UK, and the extent to which Wales benefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Government. It's not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in that relationship, but that will become a matter of politics. There's a broader dimension, which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that. I think it's very hard for us to be definitive about how that's going to play out. I think that depends on the deal and how it all unfolds over the next several years. But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how that plays for institutions remains to be seen. We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it. So, in terms of recruitment, Bethan.
Bethan Owen: This is based on the UCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June, 30 June. The European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent, which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for English institutions, and non-EU--so international students, not from Europe--have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions, again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England. So, those are the signs of changes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment?
Bethan Owen: The funding position would be the main pressure. The recommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented, and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effect from this September. However, the recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. That funding, when it returns to institutions, is intended to re-establish funding for higher cost provision, both full time and part time; reinstate funding for innovation; and maintain, at the very least, the research funding in real terms. Universities, in the meantime, are trying to minimise the cost reductions that they're making in order to maintain the infrastructure, so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it. We have announced our funding allocations for 2018-19. For the research and teaching grant, though, we are still funding at a lower level--PS12. 5 million less--then the starting point for the Diamond report, the 2015-16 starting report. But we expect to be able to start introducing funding from 2019-20 to make a start on implementing Diamond. And it's probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit, therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition to those that the Diamond report was addressing. The other pressures relate to student recruitment. I mentioned the EU and international students. There is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled and English-domiciled applications to Wales. Enrolments are obviously the key important number, which we'll see later. And the other pressures include pay and pension costs, not least the issues around the universities superannuation scheme pension fund, where there's potentially a significant increase in cost. Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure and borrowing, which bring their own pressures. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding--the Augar review.
John Griffiths AM: In terms of European Union students and enrolment, is Wales forecast to do less well than England and, if so, why might that be?
Bethan Owen: They are not forecasting it. It's very difficult until the enrolments are made, and it's also very hard to see--the data that we see is the UCAS data. Institutions also recruit directly, so until we see the actual recruitment--. I think the arrangements that have changed from 2018-19 also impact on EU students. So, now, they have to find the full fee, whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students. So, I'm speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students'appetite to come.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. First of all Llyr, then Mark.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, that's straight into what I was going to ask, really, about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 per cent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales, where we see a 2 per cent increase in England. Is that it, or are there other things that you've taken into account? What's your assessment of the reasons behind this?
Dr David Blaney: It's very difficult to be definitive about the reasons, but I think there are probably two. The one that Bethan has already indicated, which is the change in student support arrangements for EU students, will have an effect of perturbation. That's probably relatively temporary--let's hope it is--as that settles down because, actually, the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming into England. Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower, but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. So, getting the messages out is a challenge. The other dimension is that when you're in a highly competitive recruitment market, you have to do what you can to look attractive. Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities, and particularly buildings and kit, and the relative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that. Certainly, anecdotally I know, from my own family, that a lot of the choices have been made in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on. There's something rational about that, isn't there? If you've got a system that is relatively better invested, then you're likely to have a better student experience because the resources are likely to be better. So, that's not irrational. We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the PS9,000 fee maximum limit came in, and some institutions, mostly in England--there was one in Wales--chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low, relative to that PS9,000, and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind. So, the price sensitivities work quite differently. So, again, if you've got a relatively better invested part of the system, then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That latter factor would affect the whole of the cohort, not just the international recruitment, of course.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. Yes, indeed. The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that's re-balancing where the policy of investment goes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. And Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: If I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the applications from non-EU students were also down by 8 per cent or 9 per cent. So, forgive me a certain scepticism about the explanation of the fall in the EU students being that they did get the fee grant and now they do not. If that's the explanation, why are we seeing the same fall in non-EU applications?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think the Welsh domiciled are also now having to face the prospect of finding a loan for the whole of the fee. So, that would potentially account for that. There's also a demographic dimension here with the downturn in the 18-year-old school-leaver profile, and that actually is happening in Wales at a slightly later point than in England.
Mark Reckless AM: But this is non-EU students, and I think you said, Bethan, an 8 per cent or 9 per cent fall in them as well.
Dr David Blaney: International non-EU. I beg your pardon. I misunderstood.
Bethan Owen: There's also a mix effect. I gave a number that was for all English institutions that there will be differential impacts on.
Mark Reckless AM: All English or all Welsh?
Bethan Owen: Well, I contrasted the Welsh position with the English position where they were seeing growth. If you look, then--and we don't have the detailed information, but, again, what UCAS publish is some analysis by tariff. They analyse by type of institution--in other words, the grades that you need to get into institutions--and there is a trend for growth being in the higher tariff institutions. So, there's a mix effect in there as well, and I think there's undoubtedly an element of perception of how welcome overseas and international students are, and that's something that we know the sector are working on with Government.
Mark Reckless AM: Why would that affect Wales more than England? Do you think there's been perhaps too great a negativity about Brexit in the sector?
Bethan Owen: I think it's the mix of institutions that we have. So, we only have sector information published at the moment. When we look at the mix of institutions that we have, we will probably see a differential impact between Cardiff University and others.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? Sorry, David, did you want to add anything?
Dr David Blaney: I was just going to say that we would expect to see quite differential performance in the English sector, so the overall numbers are being brought up by substantial increased performance with some of that sector, and it's a question of how many of that type of institution you have in Wales.
Mark Reckless AM: So, performance is increasing amongst the English universities, but not amongst the Welsh, you think.
Dr David Blaney: I think performance is increasing, but increasing substantially with some of the English sector, not all of it. So, you get an average for the sector that is increased performance, but actually the stronger players within that sector, with the stronger international profiles, are bringing that up, and we have fewer in Wales that have that sort of presence.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Would it be fair to say, then, that the universities over the border in England are better at selling themselves internationally than our Welsh institutions? Or is it just this fact that we've got fewer very high tariff universities versus the English market?
Dr David Blaney: I suspect, and this is speculation--I suspect that it's a bit of both. I think some of it is to do with the mix of different types of institution. I would then come back to the point I was making about the Anglocentric nature of the UK media. If you're looking overseas, I think Wales has to work harder to penetrate the consciousness.
Darren Millar AM: But, forgive me, don't international students just look at the UK as a whole? How are we comparing to Scotland, for example, or Northern Ireland, in terms of their universities? Do you have a comparative figure for Scottish universities?
Bethan Owen: I haven't got that one with me for now, but there will be one in the data.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, we could get that.
Bethan Owen: Again, it's a combination of being part of the UK but differentiating, and the ability to differentiate the strengths of Wales, so attracting those students to Wales specifically, on top of the UK draw.
Dr David Blaney: So, in terms of the efforts that have been made, there's a programme now that is being run by the sector in Wales--it's'Study in Wales'. It's relatively recent; you could argue that we could have got there earlier. But that is a determined collective effort to present Wales as a good place to study, with particular messages about what distinguishes studying in Wales from studying more broadly in the UK. In a sense, that is responding to the need to increase the presence of Wales in an international market. So, that sort of initiative I think is very good, very welcome. It will take a while to actually have an impact, but I think that's exactly the sort of work the sector need to be doing more of.
Mark Reckless AM: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: One of them in particular is relative safety. We know that one of the considerations, particularly for parents of overseas students, is are they going to go to a safe environment, and we know that the perception of international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be. That's partly a function of the size of our larger cities--quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England. So, that's a key message. Being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well. So, we've got a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, but it's available in a way that is safer and more supportive, I think is the messaging that's coming through.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. We'd better move on, I think, hadn't we? Darren, then.
Darren Millar AM: I just wonder to what extent you have been able to plan in your financial forecasts for the next few years ahead for the potential impacts of Brexit. What have you built in, if anything?
Bethan Owen: In terms of our funding, we receive our funding annually, but the sector provides us with financial forecasts, and we use those for monitoring sustainability. So, the last full forecasts that we had were in July 2017. We are due to receive a full forecast at the end of this month, and we obviously have updated information from institutions.
Darren Millar AM: And they're three-year forecasts that come through to you, aren't they?
Bethan Owen: They are four plus the current year. So, we've got numbers to 2019-20 at the moment, and expect to go to 2020-21.
Darren Millar AM: And what are the universities expecting? What do they anticipate?
Bethan Owen: Well, for 2017-18, which is the year we're about to end now, they were expecting PS38 million income from European students, and approximately PS91 million from the various European programme funding sources, and that's about 8 per cent of the total income--PS1. 5 billion--of the sector. The forecasts are assuming that that continues, albeit that institutions have various scenarios that they have for all sorts of scenarios that we can all speculate on, and, as I mentioned earlier, the balancing act of maintaining infrastructure and resources and staff in the short term is where we are at the moment, or where the sector is at the moment. And there are also signs that the banks and lending institutions are becoming a bit more risk-averse in providing borrowing to institutions, and of more differentiation between individual institutions being made than has possibly been the case in the past. The sector made an operating deficit, again looking at all Welsh institutions collectively last year, 2016-17, of PS17 million. That's before other gains and losses. And we're expecting a similar collective level of deficit for this financial year, if not slightly higher. Now, these are managed deficits and we are not currently seeing critical short-term cash availability issues in the sector. However, the increase in funding from Diamond is a key part of enabling the sector to return to longer-term financial sustainability. Short-term challenges can be met if there's a reasonable prospect of future funding. You can manage in the short-term, but there comes a point when the big cost reductions and infrastructure reductions have to be made. And, again, having mentioned the pressures on pay, pensions and other challenges, it is difficult to gauge whether, if those factors come into play as well, some of these cost reductions may have to be made before funding comes in to replace--either Diamond funding or the European replacement funding.
Darren Millar AM: So, would it be fair to say that, in terms of the funding arrangements, and, in terms of the student numbers, one reason why we've got this recruitment problem is this lack of investment in the capital infrastructure that we've seen in recent years because of the financing arrangements from the Welsh Government, and the fee regime that we had previously, and the student finance regime that we had previously, not getting more cash into our Welsh universities perhaps, and that, over the next few years, there's going to have to be much more significant investment in capital if we're to raise the game and be more competitive, yes?
Bethan Owen: Yes, that would be fair to say.
Darren Millar AM: So, to what extent are they planning for more capital investment in those financial strategies that they've been preparing and presenting to you?
Bethan Owen: They are all planning for capital investment. They are in different positions in terms of capacity to borrow and the assumptions. This year, 2018-19, is the first time that we've had capital funding in our remit letter--so, we've got PS10 million of capital funding, which is very welcome, with a prospect of a further PS20 million. So, that we will be allocating shortly. That will make a difference, particularly to those institutions who are not finding it as easy to borrow from financial institutions. Some of our larger institutions have borrowed--Cardiff University issued a bond. However, there are internal governance processes that are putting tight restrictions and expectations of what that money will be invested in. But they all have plans to do it and they need the confidence that their forecasts and long-term future funding prospects are secure enough that they can get the confidence of borrowers then, and service the costs of those borrowers.
Darren Millar AM: So, the Diamond dividend you've mentioned a few times. What clarity is there from the Welsh Government at the moment in terms of how much they anticipate the Diamond dividend will be, and what proportion of that is going to be released to HEIs in the future?
Bethan Owen: I was very carefully not describing it as a dividend--a re-establishing of funding that we had in the past for higher cost and innovation and maintaining research funding. The timescales are difficult, because we have an annual remit letter, and we can work with Welsh Government officials, and they can only give us a sense of when they think the funding will be released. But 2018-19 is the start of the system, and because of cohort protection--so, protecting those students who came in on a different deal to the deal from 2018-19--in the early years there is an element of double cost; there's a cost of seeing out the old system and the different cost of implementing the new system. So, at the moment, we're certainly not in a position to tell the sector with any degree of certainty what funding would be beyond what we've allocated for 2018-19, with some sense of what 2019-20 numbers we're working with because we allocate our money over an academic year--so, by definition, we've already made assumptions of four months of the 2019-20 funding, albeit that's not approved yet in the budgetary process.
Darren Millar AM: But you're not being given a steer at all as to what you expect the additional resource that you might have to make available to Welsh universities might be as a result of Diamond. You must have some idea.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that officials have been as helpful as they can be with us, in terms of the planning assumptions we make and indications about whether or not we are being too ambitious or not ambitious enough. So, I think they're being very helpful; as Bethan said, they're constrained by the process--they can't pre-empt a budget process. And you folks will be fully aware of that, of course. The other question I think you asked was how much of the money released by the new arrangements will come into higher education. At the moment, we are expecting all of it to come into higher education, as the product of the arrangement between the current Cabinet Secretary and the current First Minister. The extent to which any changes there cause that to come under threat is something I can't judge at the moment. But we have had in our remit letter from the Cabinet Secretary a clear indication that we can expect our resource to grow over the next few years, as the Diamond process unfolds.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. I'm just going to bring in Llyr at this stage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bethan said in an earlier answer that, I think, the financial forecasting from universities forecast something pretty consistent in terms of what they're hoping to be receiving in income, for example. But we've already discussed the near 10 per cent drop, potentially, in international applications. So, does that tally, really, or are they going to be recruiting additional students from the UK market or--? What's the plan?
Bethan Owen: I was reflecting on the last point when we had consistent information across the sector.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, they may need to revisit that in the light of this.
Bethan Owen: I'm expecting that the forecast that we get at the end of this month will reflect the reduced applications we've seen, and an element of that will be reflected in reduced improvements as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, we don't really know, then, whether--it's unlikely that they are going to expect a consistent fee income, really.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say we would expect them to respond to what they're seeing in the UCAS process. Even if they didn't, they would all, in any case, have sensitivities for what they would do if things don't come out in the way they hope. And if they didn't have that then we would be on their case, of course, because we want them to be properly sighted.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Thanks.
John Griffiths AM: And we have to stick to the Brexit impact. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask, in terms of the impact of Brexit, have you done any assessment of what you think might happen, or have any of the institutions made available to you any assessments of what they think is likely to happen to their individual institutions, going forward? You've mentioned scenarios earlier on, David, so what scenarios have you set out?
Dr David Blaney: There's a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group, which is chaired by one of the Government directors, and we sit on that. And we have provided that group with early summaries of the risks and the potential impact, in terms of the exposure of the sector to EU-sourced funding. We have, as part of that working group, explored those issues that it would be really very helpful for either the Welsh Government to try to put in place or for the Welsh Government to persuade UK Government to do. And I think, in our submission, we identified a number of areas of what we would consider to be a helpful action, and that has been worked through that working group. We know that it has informed Welsh Government's position, in terms of what it does and also in terms of the conversations that they have with Her Majesty's Government. Beyond that, what we haven't done in that working group is share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios. We are not able to do that here either because, inevitably, they would have varying degrees of unpalatability and they would have to be managed very, very carefully. You take cost out, which is essentially the response, you actually take people's jobs out, and all of that has to be managed carefully. So, that's not really a matter for public consideration, but we do know that the institutions are looking at a range of scenarios on what they would do. Bethan mentioned earlier on that the current deficit for the sector is a managed deficit--it's not something that has taken them by surprise. They are responding to what they see as the dip between where Diamond was reporting and where the money starts flowing. Similarly, I think we're comfortable that there is a managed approach to the scenarios that they're testing within institutions. So, they will do what they need to do to sustain themselves. The bigger issue really, in a public policy context, is the potential damage for the sector to be able to deliver for Wales in terms of research and skills development and all the other contributions.
Darren Millar AM: So, you're confident that they're taking a robust approach to planning for various scenarios, going forward, are you, as individual HEIs?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and as the deal becomes more clear politically, then they will obviously have greater clarity in terms of which of these scenarios they need to work up more fully, but they are sighted on it.
Darren Millar AM: Okay. Can I just ask about fee and access plans, and how Brexit might impact them? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted?
Dr David Blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there. Fee and access plans are approved annually by us. They are approved in advance of the recruitment cycle for the year that they apply to. So, we're just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 2019-20 academic year. So, there's quite a long lead time. We, as part of that process, go through similar--we look at their financial sustainability, which is based on their forecasts--data to the stuff we've just been discussing. And also, of course, the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types, from different domains, are going to be recruited. So, clearly, if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment, then that will reduce the amount of fee income that's going to come in, unless they can find other students, and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans. In terms of process, we have two things that we can do. If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they've submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality, then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan. So, we have a change process. If it's not fundamentally different, but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later--. We also monitor after the event and, if there are differences, we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences. If they've had fewer students and less investment, we would need to understand that. Conversely, if they'd had more students, and potentially more investment, we'd want to know what they'd spent it on, and if they've done different things, we'd want to understand that as well. So, we do challenge through a monitoring process. The only other thing that's perhaps worth saying is that, in the 2019-20 fee and access plans--they're not published yet, so I can't give you the full detail--five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact, and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues, so they're in there as well.
Darren Millar AM: But we've already said, haven't we, that it may be nothing to do with Brexit, this dip in EU recruitment, because there are other factors like the attractiveness of the estates and the environment that young people might be educated in? But they're making assumptions that it's linked to Brexit, are they?
Dr David Blaney: Not really. I think they're making assumptions that it could be. There are things they want to do to enhance and to protect student mobility, and some of that will be funded through fee plan investment. So, the Brexit conversation between the EU and the UK Government might or might not sustain Erasmus engagement, and if it doesn't, then they need to find other ways of trying to support that sort of thing. So, that's what we're beginning to see in the fee plans. It's them thinking about how else we can do this stuff.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Darren? Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: You mentioned the fee and access report. What else do you do to assure yourselves that Welsh higher education institutions are effectively planning for Brexit?
Bethan Owen: We've touched on contingency plans, but, in an environment of uncertainty, I think it's difficult for any of us to know what the right scenario is. I think rather than looking at worst-case scenarios, what the sector is also focusing on is the promotion and looking for additional or increased sources of funding. So, we touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales, so more focus on marketing Wales overseas, but also within the UK. The other area where the sector is working at a UK level very hard is making the arguments to UK Government for maintaining access to the successor to Horizon 2020, which is arguably a larger part of the whole funding infrastructure--students is one part, but the whole funding infrastructure for maintaining research capacity. So, working with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level for maintaining access to those sources of funding is also a part of what the institutions are doing. We mentioned the Welsh Government's HE Brexit group. That group, which is the Welsh Government group, is being advised by members on it, and that's informing Welsh Government officials when they engage with UK Government as well.
Mark Reckless AM: Do universities seek your advice on what the risks and, indeed, opportunities of Brexit may be and what you think they should be doing to plan for them, or is your role more one of monitoring what they do as opposed to advising what they should do?
Bethan Owen: They are autonomous institutions and ultimately their governing bodies are responsible for ensuring their sustainability. It's not a relationship where we would advise and direct, but it is a relationship where we would question the scenarios if we consider from our experience that we would have expected other scenarios to have been tested. It's that nature of conversation, rather than directing.
Mark Reckless AM: I understand you don't direct, of course, but my question was about advising. You're overseeing, or monitoring--or whatever you like to describe the role as--quite a number of institutions, and presumably you therefore have particular expertise within your organisation, and I just wondered whether higher education institutions are doing enough to draw on that.
Bethan Owen: I think we can advise--we can advise based on data and information that we can see. We can advise based on our judgment. The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario is the uncertainty and the extent to which our speculation is better informed than the governing bodies or the sector collectively is probably the issue.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's right. So, there's a relationship with the sector and there's a relationship with individual institutions, and they are different. So, we have engagement collectively with the sector. Bethan meets with the finance directors, and I meet with the vice-chancellors. We actually have the sector and the funding council together on the Welsh Government's group. So, some of these conversations are happening in various ways, where we're all gaining intelligence about what might be a sensible set of planning assumptions. Then, if we see an institution that is manifestly giving signs of not being sighted on some of these risks, either through their forecast or through other assurance activity, we will challenge. We have an annual cycle, with two points in the year where we reassess the overall risks of individual institutions, and that's based on a whole range of hard data but also a range of soft data. Our links into institutions are many and varied. We have lots of conversations and we take all of that in the round and form an assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions but also the extent to which we think their governance and management arrangements are properly sighted and facing properly the challenges that they face. In some ways, we say it's not about the challenges they face; it's about how they face the challenges. Our alarm bells really ring when we get the sense that, actually, either an executive or a governing body hasn't really noticed. We're not in that place, I'm really pleased to say. I'm not worried about short-term crisis with any of the institutions. There are medium-term real challenges, both because of Brexit and because of other contextual factors, but at the moment the sector is a managed sector, which is good. It's not always like that, but we're in, I think, a good place at the moment. So, our role is definitely to challenge where we don't think they are making sensible assessments, but it's not to say that their assessment is wrong and ours is right; it's just to have a conversation about,'Why have you done this and what has informed your thinking?'It's slightly more one step back and slightly more subtle, but it is, as you imply, us using the intelligence we gain from all of those conversations when we talk to individual institutions as well.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. We had evidence last week from some of the higher education institutions, including Cardiff University, and it's very interesting, in relation to Erasmus+ and the mobility funding for students that, I think, only 40 per cent of the mobility funding in Cardiff is paid for by Erasmus+. I note that you've been consulting on national measures for higher education performance and that one possibility is using international mobility as a performance indicator. I was just wondering whether you might go further and expect universities to actually make commitments to funding international mobility from their own fee incomes as part of that.
Bethan Owen: Again, reflecting on the latest fee and access plans, seven of the universities are referring to mobility--either they have targets in them or are explaining what their plans are--so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income. However, Erasmus is such a well-established and long-term plan--if we were looking at a scenario where that infrastructure wasn't available, to implement anything similar to that would be much less efficient and much more costly. And to enable an infrastructure that allowed--. Ideally, you'd want something that all Welsh institutions could take part in, and that takes some investment and some co-ordinating. And, equally, you need to have the arrangements with your overseas and European institutions. I think it's easy to underestimate the accumulation of time that has gone into establishing Erasmus. So, I think replacing it would be a challenge.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And the point was made clearly last week that the brand is internationally recognised. When you enter into Erasmus+, you know exactly what you're going to get, and all of that. But there have been criticisms as well about degrees of flexibility and this, that and the other, so I'm just wondering whether--and there is presumably going to be some change on that front although I'm hoping we can buy into it, as others have done who aren't in the EU--that emphasis on encouraging institutions to look more proactively at funding their own mobility efforts would be positive.
Dr David Blaney: I think the--
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Sorry--especially if it means that they do more of it.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. I think the Welsh sector is definitely committed to trying to find ways of promoting and resourcing that sort of mobility. There are signs that some of the restrictive elements of the Erasmus programme are going to change anyway, because that's under development and that's positive. There have been positive noises as part of the Brexit negotiations about wanting to carry on being able to access the Erasmus programme. Nothing is agreed until it's all agreed apparently, so we'll have to see on that one. That would be far better, I think, as Bethan indicates, than trying to replace it with a made-in-Wales only, but you could have a made-in-Wales on top. All of these challenges also create opportunities because they stimulate thinking, and so the fact that seven of the eight universities are already now using their fee plans as a vehicle for thinking about this is positive, and I think we can take that on from there.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because that 40/60 split struck me as being the opposite to what I perceived the situation to be. A key part of your role is to work in partnership with students, so I'd just like to ask what work have you done with students, in terms of maybe protecting their interests as the Brexit scenario evolves?
Dr David Blaney: Well, as you say, we do work with students. We were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales. We work very closely with them and the president of NUS is an observer on our council. So, we have close links with NUS Wales and we're very proud of that, and it's very productive. They don't have a vote, but they do have a voice and it really matters. We we're, again, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. The UK-wide quality code also has elements in it where arrangements have to be specified about the protection of student interests. That is particularly, in essence, around circumstances where a provider gets into difficulties and they might wish to close a course or something more drastic and then what arrangements are in place to make sure that those students who are in train are protected. So, that is there and we've worked hard with the sector and with NUS Wales to get those measures in place. There's more development work in train at the moment, so we've asked Universities Wales to construct a protection that takes account of the approach to protecting the student interests in higher education. We're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important. The students who are HE students in FE are absolutely not second-best, and they should have the same protections.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is all this a general piece of work? It's not Brexit-specific, although, no doubt, it may--.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's fair to say, yes. The other dimension around Brexit is the immigration status of EU students, and that's, kind of, beyond our pay scale--that's a UK Government issue.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is that something that you have a view on?
Dr David Blaney: It's clearly in the interest of the enrichment of the curriculum and the student experience for students in Welsh institutions to be able to have students from other EU countries in the mix. So, it would be nice to find ways of continuing to facilitate that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Now, of course, you have a statutory duty as well to assess the academic quality of the work in our higher education institutions, and I'm just wondering what potential impacts you think that Brexit might have on that particular aspect.
Dr David Blaney: I think there are possibly a couple of things to say, and one, in a sense, echoes what I was just saying in the final part of my previous response, which is that part of the quality of the student experience is the richness that you get from having students in your cohort who have different backgrounds and different perspectives. So, if there is a continuing reduction in the number of EU students coming into Welsh institutions, then that richness deteriorates. That doesn't mean to say that the base or the threshold standard of what's required for a degree will come under pressure, it's just about the richness on top of that, which will be, in a sense, a quality-enhancement issue. That would be something that we would wish to try to protect against, but in the end you can't force EU students to come--you have to try and look attractive, and we've touched on that. The baseline requirement assessment of quality will not be affected by Brexit, except in so far as the machinery we use to discharge our statutory responsibility, which is through the Quality Assurance Agency, which themselves are accredited with European Association for Quality Assurance in Higher Education, the European machinery for higher education quality. And there's a set of standards around that, and we would obviously wish not to be in a position where our ability to use and adhere to those standards is adversely impacted upon. Those standards will still exist, and it will be possible for the British system to adhere to them, even if they're not actually able to play in the same way. Then the only other thing I would say is that one of the factors that can cause the quality of the learning and teaching experience to be likely to become inadequate is when institutions come under financial pressure, just because their capacity to maintain the same sort of student experience can get under pressure. So, clearly, we will be looking for and making sure that institutions manage the financial pressures, if there are any--and there are some at the moment, as we've described--and manage those carefully. And in all of that, we will expect institutions to do their duty to make sure that the commitments they've already made to students are carried through. So, where students have already started on the course, they need to be able to finish that course--you can't just pull the plug out. So, all of that comes into the arrangements for quality as well. So, we'll be keeping an eye on that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. A lot of what you've told us in the last three quarters of an hour or so will have costs attached, depending on the impacts. Certainly, we're in choppy waters as a sector anyway, and the risk is that things will be even more choppy, if you'll excuse that level of political interpretation, over the years to come. I'm just wondering what advice you might have given the Welsh Government in terms of what level of transition funding, or Brexit transition funding, might be required by the sector, and if you have, what the Welsh Government might have told you.
Bethan Owen: I mentioned earlier that, obviously, we've provided information in terms of the assumptions that the sector are making on income. So, for the year 2017-18, that was PS129 million. I think the extent to which that needs to be replaced or supported with transition funding depends absolutely on what the final arrangements for Brexit are, but it's an appropriate point to refer to the report that Professor Graeme Reid has produced, commissioned by Welsh Government. That was, and has, provided advice and recommendations for supporting research and innovation in the transition period. But, again, the Reid recommendations in that report build on the Diamond recommendations, and as soon as Diamond is in place--and Reid is providing recommendations in addition, to establish funding on the basis that the funding needs to be available in Wales to maintain and develop and strengthen the research and innovation infrastructure that we have.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you not worried, though, that the clock is ticking and that we really don't know what the situation is at this point?
Dr David Blaney: Do you mean the Brexit situation?
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The Brexit clock, yes.
Dr David Blaney: Uncertainty is unhelpful, because as I've said several times, the sector is a managed sector at the moment. I don't think there's--. We're not seeing maverick stuff, but actually you can only manage, really, what you can see and what you can reasonably predict. So, the longer the uncertainty persists, the more difficult that is for institutional management and, indeed, for the rest of the machinery to support them. So, yes, the sooner we get clarity, the better for everybody, I imagine.
Darren Millar AM: Chair, can I just ask a question?
John Griffiths AM: Yes, Darren.
Darren Millar AM: In terms of uncertainty, though, we've still got this uncertainty over whether the extra cash that the Government's going to have to spend as a result of Diamond being implemented is coming to the HE sector. They've given a political commitment, but you've got absolutely no other assurance of the sums of money that are coming in. We've got the reform of tertiary education arrangements in Wales, which are also under way, so it's a bit of a perfect storm for you, isn't it, really, with all of these three things happening at the same time?
Dr David Blaney: We're certainly kept busy.
Darren Millar AM: But two of those things are in the gift of the Welsh Government to sort out for you, aren't they?
Dr David Blaney: Well, the policy on the reform of the post-compulsory sector absolutely is a Welsh Government policy. The extent to which they can pre-empt a budgetary process and give us clear sight of the amount of money in future years is--. Well, again, it's not for me to comment. My understanding is that that's difficult for them to do, and I would repeat what I said earlier: officials have been as helpful as I think they can be in respect of that. I mean, you're right, we've only got a political commitment between two people currently in post. It would be great to have that firmer. I'm not sure how that could be done.
Darren Millar AM: I mean, that statement about the savings accrued from Diamond being reinvested wholly into the HE sector has not been repeated, frankly, has it, since the coalition deal was struck?
Dr David Blaney: No, but it hasn't been rescinded either, so--.
Darren Millar AM: No, but there have been opportunities--repeated opportunities--in the Chamber, where the Cabinet Secretary's been asked to repeat that commitment, and the First Minister's been asked to repeat that commitment and has not given that commitment. That must concern you, and must concern your university sector even more than, perhaps, some of the elements of Brexit that we're discussing.
Dr David Blaney: Bethan has outlined earlier on in this session the fact that institutions are currently running deficit budgets in order not to lose the infrastructure on the assumption that the Diamond money will come in. If anything were to cause significant perturbation, either to the timeline of that or to it coming in at all, then there would be much more of what Medwin Hughes calls'houskeeping'that would be required, and that would be significant. So, at the moment--I don't like the expression'valley of death', but there is a valley to cross, and I think the sector is reasonably confident about how wide and how deep that valley is. There's a demographic valley as well. So, there are several valleys that they're crossing--the metaphor fails, doesn't it, really, but I think you get the drift? So, there are a number of challenges and they can see their way out of some of those challenges, but if any one of these starts to get significantly disrupted, then that would be a real issue for them.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I go on to ask about other barriers to Welsh universities gaining more funding from UK research councils? What would you say those barriers are?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think there are a couple of things, really, to say. The first one--and we'll sound like a stuck record if we're not careful--is that there's an issue about investment and the Reid report makes this very clear. So, he has reaffirmed research that had been done previously that identifies that, actually, the quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them, and that, in the end, is a product of investment decisions. They have particularly looked at the deficit in science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas, and I always say that research is not just STEM. I mean, STEM is important, and I'm not denying the deficit in that area, but we have to also remember that the research agenda for Wales is not just STEM--it's arts, humanities, it's social sciences. If you look at the impact on public policy that could come from social science research--tremendous. And we're very good at it in Wales. The Welsh impact in its research is better than anywhere else in the UK, so that's good. So, they do very well, and we just really need to invest a little bit further--so continue to do very well, but put it on a broader front. If you want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, then the investment has two dimensions to it. One is just having enough researchers to be able to play into those increasingly larger projects rather than small-scale projects. If you haven't got the critical mass, it's very hard to make the case that you can play. And the second thing is that UK-wide research pots nearly always fund at about 80 per cent of the total cost of the research, and the other 20 per cent is meant to be found from the core research funding for the university, and if you're in a situation where your core research funding is not competitive, then you're not going to be competitive at getting that money. So, that's, kind of, straightforward. There are other things. I think it's fair to say that the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils, making sure they're in the various committees and so on. We are intending to do a bit of work to see if we can systematise that a bit better--that engagement--because there's no doubt about it: it's not to say that this system is in any way inappropriate, but the more you're in the conversations, the more likely you are to be better placed to respond to the research challenges that come up.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. One final question: in terms of the researcher collaborations and networks that exist, do you see potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of those, and are there any particular lessons to learn from Ser Cymru II?
Dr David Blaney: I think that there are two things to say here as well. First of all, the Brexit deal might or might not impact adversely on the capacity of Welsh and, indeed, UK research infrastructure to play into broader collaborative activity across Europe, and, in a sense, that's a function of the deal whatever the deal looks like, and we'll have to wait and see. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. It's not just the money, it's being in the club and it's the signalling that we're in the game. So, all of that would be important. And then the other part of my response to this would be that, actually, Wales will need to continue to be good at the research it does, so maintaining the quality, maintaining the impact, and hopefully growing the critical mass. The Ser Cymru initiative has been quite important in doing that, because it's been very focused, capturing key research players, and the attractiveness that that has then to other researchers around them, and to industry collaboration, and they have been areas of real strength that we've invested in. And I think they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Just one further point, from Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Just very briefly, one of the pieces of feedback that the committee members received at a stakeholder engagement event, which took place prior to this inquiry starting, to receive oral evidence, was about the research funding that is available from the charitable sector, and how poorly Wales does in attracting some of that research. I think we had some figures from the British Heart Foundation, which said they have PS100 million a year available for research grants, or something like that, and we're getting 1 per cent of that coming into Wales, which is obviously pretty low down. I appreciate that research into the type of activity that they want to put their money into, Wales may not be particularly good at, and there may be other opportunities with other charities and partnerships. What work are you doing in order to build the capacity that Wales has to attract more of that charitable sector research funding into Wales?
Bethan Owen: One of the issues is the capacity to engage with that funding, because of the overhead issue that David mentioned. Charitable funding at the moment doesn't attract any overhead funding. Again, that could be built in to our funding, if we had the capacity to increase our quality-related research funding. There is an element in England.
Darren Millar AM: But that pressure's the same in other parts of the UK, is it not? So the overhead funding is still an issue in England, and in other places.
Bethan Owen: There is an increased contribution, and I think it's an element that was increased this year to acknowledge that. But there will be differentiation between different charities. I'm fairly certain that some of our institutions will be very strong with the cancer charities, possibly not the heart foundation. And some of that will reflect on focusing on our strengths, but to have that fuller picture.
Darren Millar AM: So, this gearing issue that you mentioned earlier on, for every PS1 that somebody else puts on the table, they can draw in another PS4 on top, because that PS1 will cover the overheads, whereas the rest of the research cash--.
Dr David Blaney: That's exactly it. So, the more you're able to invest--. You know, we sometimes get into a conversation about the unhypothecated nature of our research funding, but actually that creates a flexibility and the infrastructure investment that allows institutions to be able to respond to these other opportunities. Without that, they can't do it, because if you're not careful, you've got institutions engaging in UK-wide or charity-based research activities where they're actually having to pay for it themselves--they're running at a loss.
Darren Millar AM: So that's the main problem; it's not that Welsh universities aren't doing their best to get this cash in. Or is it a bit of both?
Dr David Blaney: I think, in the main, universities and researchers will get their cash from wherever they can, so I don't think it's a lack of appetite.
Darren Millar AM: Okay.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, thank you, both, for coming in to give evidence to the committee this morning. You will be sent a draft of the transcript, to check for accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay then, the next item is item 3, papers to note, the first of which is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the school organisation code. The second is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Chair of the Finance Committee regarding scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for the forthcoming financial year, which we will be discussing under item 6 on the agenda. Paper to note 4 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on parental attitudes towards managing young children's behaviour. And the final paper to note, paper to note 5, is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the children and family delivery grant, which we will discuss later on in private session, if Members are content. Okay. Are you content to note those papers on that basis? Okay. Thanks very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, and also for items 1 and 2 of the 20 September meeting. Is the committee content? Yes. Thank you very much. We will move then into private session. | First, the economic impact of Brexit is shown in a number of ways, like the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU. We can also see some changes in students'applications and in increasing difficulties of the EU collaborative research activities. In terms of the financial impact, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of Wales'money will go straight into politics, and the benefits are unknown, which will become a matter of politics. In terms of recruitment, both European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales and non-EU international students decreased, who applied to Welsh institutions. While the number for both groups of students who apply to English universities increased. | qmsum |
What does the executives do to protect students'interests as the Brexit scenario evolves?
Gareth Rogers: Good morning, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Unfortunately, the Chair is unable to attend today, so in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22 I call for nominations for a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting.
Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.
Gareth Rogers: Thank you.
Darren Millar AM: I'll second that nomination.
Gareth Rogers: As there's only one nomination, I declare that John Griffiths has been appointed as temporary Chair. Thank you, John.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you all very much, and item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've received apologies from Hefin David and Lynne Neagle. There are no substitutions. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2, and our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education, and our first evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales here today, and Dr David Blaney as chief executive, and Bethan Owen, director of institutional engagement. Welcome to you both. Thanks for coming along to give evidence today. If it's okay with you, we'll move straight to questions, and Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Good morning. Bore da. I wondered if we could start off with you telling us what evidence you can see that the Brexit process has had any impact on Welsh higher education so far.
Dr David Blaney: Can I preface the response by just reminding you that we are, by contract and by role, apolitical, and a lot of the judgments about the impact of Brexit essentially reflect where people sit politically in terms of whether they think it's a good thing or a bad thing? We're not going to go there, obviously, today, so we'll stick to the facts as we can see them, and hopefully we'll be able to help you, but there are areas where we are unable to help. That's part of the reason.
John Griffiths AM: We certainly do not expect you to enter the political fray in any way.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you. But even in terms of your assessment of whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing, a good impact or a bad impact, some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it, so we will be as careful as we can be on that. In terms of the impact of Brexit on higher education, clearly, the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales. So, we fund provision; we don't fund providers, technically, although obviously there's not much provision without providers. So, we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers, but fundamentally the issue is: what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales, and what impact might Brexit have on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales? So, we know that universities make annually about PS5 billion of impact; 50,000 jobs. Of course, in Wales, all of that economic impact is really very significant, and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment. That has an impact in a number of ways. We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU, so EU students, structural funds, and EU research funding, and so on, from the EU. We can identify some of that, but, actually, what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about. We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I'll ask Bethan to share some details on that in a moment. We're also beginning to pick up, only anecdotally, some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector, and the Welsh sector as part of that, in playing in some of the EU collaborative research activities. And that, I think, just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period. We don't have data on that--that's anecdotal--but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult. In terms of the financial impact of that, clearly, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of the money--we're almost immediately straight into politics if you're not careful--but some of the money will be available back to the UK, and the extent to which Wales benefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Government. It's not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in that relationship, but that will become a matter of politics. There's a broader dimension, which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that. I think it's very hard for us to be definitive about how that's going to play out. I think that depends on the deal and how it all unfolds over the next several years. But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how that plays for institutions remains to be seen. We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it. So, in terms of recruitment, Bethan.
Bethan Owen: This is based on the UCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June, 30 June. The European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent, which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for English institutions, and non-EU--so international students, not from Europe--have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions, again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England. So, those are the signs of changes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment?
Bethan Owen: The funding position would be the main pressure. The recommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented, and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effect from this September. However, the recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. That funding, when it returns to institutions, is intended to re-establish funding for higher cost provision, both full time and part time; reinstate funding for innovation; and maintain, at the very least, the research funding in real terms. Universities, in the meantime, are trying to minimise the cost reductions that they're making in order to maintain the infrastructure, so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it. We have announced our funding allocations for 2018-19. For the research and teaching grant, though, we are still funding at a lower level--PS12. 5 million less--then the starting point for the Diamond report, the 2015-16 starting report. But we expect to be able to start introducing funding from 2019-20 to make a start on implementing Diamond. And it's probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit, therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition to those that the Diamond report was addressing. The other pressures relate to student recruitment. I mentioned the EU and international students. There is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled and English-domiciled applications to Wales. Enrolments are obviously the key important number, which we'll see later. And the other pressures include pay and pension costs, not least the issues around the universities superannuation scheme pension fund, where there's potentially a significant increase in cost. Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure and borrowing, which bring their own pressures. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding--the Augar review.
John Griffiths AM: In terms of European Union students and enrolment, is Wales forecast to do less well than England and, if so, why might that be?
Bethan Owen: They are not forecasting it. It's very difficult until the enrolments are made, and it's also very hard to see--the data that we see is the UCAS data. Institutions also recruit directly, so until we see the actual recruitment--. I think the arrangements that have changed from 2018-19 also impact on EU students. So, now, they have to find the full fee, whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students. So, I'm speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students'appetite to come.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. First of all Llyr, then Mark.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, that's straight into what I was going to ask, really, about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 per cent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales, where we see a 2 per cent increase in England. Is that it, or are there other things that you've taken into account? What's your assessment of the reasons behind this?
Dr David Blaney: It's very difficult to be definitive about the reasons, but I think there are probably two. The one that Bethan has already indicated, which is the change in student support arrangements for EU students, will have an effect of perturbation. That's probably relatively temporary--let's hope it is--as that settles down because, actually, the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming into England. Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower, but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. So, getting the messages out is a challenge. The other dimension is that when you're in a highly competitive recruitment market, you have to do what you can to look attractive. Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities, and particularly buildings and kit, and the relative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that. Certainly, anecdotally I know, from my own family, that a lot of the choices have been made in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on. There's something rational about that, isn't there? If you've got a system that is relatively better invested, then you're likely to have a better student experience because the resources are likely to be better. So, that's not irrational. We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the PS9,000 fee maximum limit came in, and some institutions, mostly in England--there was one in Wales--chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low, relative to that PS9,000, and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind. So, the price sensitivities work quite differently. So, again, if you've got a relatively better invested part of the system, then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That latter factor would affect the whole of the cohort, not just the international recruitment, of course.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. Yes, indeed. The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that's re-balancing where the policy of investment goes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. And Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: If I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the applications from non-EU students were also down by 8 per cent or 9 per cent. So, forgive me a certain scepticism about the explanation of the fall in the EU students being that they did get the fee grant and now they do not. If that's the explanation, why are we seeing the same fall in non-EU applications?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think the Welsh domiciled are also now having to face the prospect of finding a loan for the whole of the fee. So, that would potentially account for that. There's also a demographic dimension here with the downturn in the 18-year-old school-leaver profile, and that actually is happening in Wales at a slightly later point than in England.
Mark Reckless AM: But this is non-EU students, and I think you said, Bethan, an 8 per cent or 9 per cent fall in them as well.
Dr David Blaney: International non-EU. I beg your pardon. I misunderstood.
Bethan Owen: There's also a mix effect. I gave a number that was for all English institutions that there will be differential impacts on.
Mark Reckless AM: All English or all Welsh?
Bethan Owen: Well, I contrasted the Welsh position with the English position where they were seeing growth. If you look, then--and we don't have the detailed information, but, again, what UCAS publish is some analysis by tariff. They analyse by type of institution--in other words, the grades that you need to get into institutions--and there is a trend for growth being in the higher tariff institutions. So, there's a mix effect in there as well, and I think there's undoubtedly an element of perception of how welcome overseas and international students are, and that's something that we know the sector are working on with Government.
Mark Reckless AM: Why would that affect Wales more than England? Do you think there's been perhaps too great a negativity about Brexit in the sector?
Bethan Owen: I think it's the mix of institutions that we have. So, we only have sector information published at the moment. When we look at the mix of institutions that we have, we will probably see a differential impact between Cardiff University and others.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? Sorry, David, did you want to add anything?
Dr David Blaney: I was just going to say that we would expect to see quite differential performance in the English sector, so the overall numbers are being brought up by substantial increased performance with some of that sector, and it's a question of how many of that type of institution you have in Wales.
Mark Reckless AM: So, performance is increasing amongst the English universities, but not amongst the Welsh, you think.
Dr David Blaney: I think performance is increasing, but increasing substantially with some of the English sector, not all of it. So, you get an average for the sector that is increased performance, but actually the stronger players within that sector, with the stronger international profiles, are bringing that up, and we have fewer in Wales that have that sort of presence.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Would it be fair to say, then, that the universities over the border in England are better at selling themselves internationally than our Welsh institutions? Or is it just this fact that we've got fewer very high tariff universities versus the English market?
Dr David Blaney: I suspect, and this is speculation--I suspect that it's a bit of both. I think some of it is to do with the mix of different types of institution. I would then come back to the point I was making about the Anglocentric nature of the UK media. If you're looking overseas, I think Wales has to work harder to penetrate the consciousness.
Darren Millar AM: But, forgive me, don't international students just look at the UK as a whole? How are we comparing to Scotland, for example, or Northern Ireland, in terms of their universities? Do you have a comparative figure for Scottish universities?
Bethan Owen: I haven't got that one with me for now, but there will be one in the data.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, we could get that.
Bethan Owen: Again, it's a combination of being part of the UK but differentiating, and the ability to differentiate the strengths of Wales, so attracting those students to Wales specifically, on top of the UK draw.
Dr David Blaney: So, in terms of the efforts that have been made, there's a programme now that is being run by the sector in Wales--it's'Study in Wales'. It's relatively recent; you could argue that we could have got there earlier. But that is a determined collective effort to present Wales as a good place to study, with particular messages about what distinguishes studying in Wales from studying more broadly in the UK. In a sense, that is responding to the need to increase the presence of Wales in an international market. So, that sort of initiative I think is very good, very welcome. It will take a while to actually have an impact, but I think that's exactly the sort of work the sector need to be doing more of.
Mark Reckless AM: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: One of them in particular is relative safety. We know that one of the considerations, particularly for parents of overseas students, is are they going to go to a safe environment, and we know that the perception of international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be. That's partly a function of the size of our larger cities--quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England. So, that's a key message. Being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well. So, we've got a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, but it's available in a way that is safer and more supportive, I think is the messaging that's coming through.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. We'd better move on, I think, hadn't we? Darren, then.
Darren Millar AM: I just wonder to what extent you have been able to plan in your financial forecasts for the next few years ahead for the potential impacts of Brexit. What have you built in, if anything?
Bethan Owen: In terms of our funding, we receive our funding annually, but the sector provides us with financial forecasts, and we use those for monitoring sustainability. So, the last full forecasts that we had were in July 2017. We are due to receive a full forecast at the end of this month, and we obviously have updated information from institutions.
Darren Millar AM: And they're three-year forecasts that come through to you, aren't they?
Bethan Owen: They are four plus the current year. So, we've got numbers to 2019-20 at the moment, and expect to go to 2020-21.
Darren Millar AM: And what are the universities expecting? What do they anticipate?
Bethan Owen: Well, for 2017-18, which is the year we're about to end now, they were expecting PS38 million income from European students, and approximately PS91 million from the various European programme funding sources, and that's about 8 per cent of the total income--PS1. 5 billion--of the sector. The forecasts are assuming that that continues, albeit that institutions have various scenarios that they have for all sorts of scenarios that we can all speculate on, and, as I mentioned earlier, the balancing act of maintaining infrastructure and resources and staff in the short term is where we are at the moment, or where the sector is at the moment. And there are also signs that the banks and lending institutions are becoming a bit more risk-averse in providing borrowing to institutions, and of more differentiation between individual institutions being made than has possibly been the case in the past. The sector made an operating deficit, again looking at all Welsh institutions collectively last year, 2016-17, of PS17 million. That's before other gains and losses. And we're expecting a similar collective level of deficit for this financial year, if not slightly higher. Now, these are managed deficits and we are not currently seeing critical short-term cash availability issues in the sector. However, the increase in funding from Diamond is a key part of enabling the sector to return to longer-term financial sustainability. Short-term challenges can be met if there's a reasonable prospect of future funding. You can manage in the short-term, but there comes a point when the big cost reductions and infrastructure reductions have to be made. And, again, having mentioned the pressures on pay, pensions and other challenges, it is difficult to gauge whether, if those factors come into play as well, some of these cost reductions may have to be made before funding comes in to replace--either Diamond funding or the European replacement funding.
Darren Millar AM: So, would it be fair to say that, in terms of the funding arrangements, and, in terms of the student numbers, one reason why we've got this recruitment problem is this lack of investment in the capital infrastructure that we've seen in recent years because of the financing arrangements from the Welsh Government, and the fee regime that we had previously, and the student finance regime that we had previously, not getting more cash into our Welsh universities perhaps, and that, over the next few years, there's going to have to be much more significant investment in capital if we're to raise the game and be more competitive, yes?
Bethan Owen: Yes, that would be fair to say.
Darren Millar AM: So, to what extent are they planning for more capital investment in those financial strategies that they've been preparing and presenting to you?
Bethan Owen: They are all planning for capital investment. They are in different positions in terms of capacity to borrow and the assumptions. This year, 2018-19, is the first time that we've had capital funding in our remit letter--so, we've got PS10 million of capital funding, which is very welcome, with a prospect of a further PS20 million. So, that we will be allocating shortly. That will make a difference, particularly to those institutions who are not finding it as easy to borrow from financial institutions. Some of our larger institutions have borrowed--Cardiff University issued a bond. However, there are internal governance processes that are putting tight restrictions and expectations of what that money will be invested in. But they all have plans to do it and they need the confidence that their forecasts and long-term future funding prospects are secure enough that they can get the confidence of borrowers then, and service the costs of those borrowers.
Darren Millar AM: So, the Diamond dividend you've mentioned a few times. What clarity is there from the Welsh Government at the moment in terms of how much they anticipate the Diamond dividend will be, and what proportion of that is going to be released to HEIs in the future?
Bethan Owen: I was very carefully not describing it as a dividend--a re-establishing of funding that we had in the past for higher cost and innovation and maintaining research funding. The timescales are difficult, because we have an annual remit letter, and we can work with Welsh Government officials, and they can only give us a sense of when they think the funding will be released. But 2018-19 is the start of the system, and because of cohort protection--so, protecting those students who came in on a different deal to the deal from 2018-19--in the early years there is an element of double cost; there's a cost of seeing out the old system and the different cost of implementing the new system. So, at the moment, we're certainly not in a position to tell the sector with any degree of certainty what funding would be beyond what we've allocated for 2018-19, with some sense of what 2019-20 numbers we're working with because we allocate our money over an academic year--so, by definition, we've already made assumptions of four months of the 2019-20 funding, albeit that's not approved yet in the budgetary process.
Darren Millar AM: But you're not being given a steer at all as to what you expect the additional resource that you might have to make available to Welsh universities might be as a result of Diamond. You must have some idea.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that officials have been as helpful as they can be with us, in terms of the planning assumptions we make and indications about whether or not we are being too ambitious or not ambitious enough. So, I think they're being very helpful; as Bethan said, they're constrained by the process--they can't pre-empt a budget process. And you folks will be fully aware of that, of course. The other question I think you asked was how much of the money released by the new arrangements will come into higher education. At the moment, we are expecting all of it to come into higher education, as the product of the arrangement between the current Cabinet Secretary and the current First Minister. The extent to which any changes there cause that to come under threat is something I can't judge at the moment. But we have had in our remit letter from the Cabinet Secretary a clear indication that we can expect our resource to grow over the next few years, as the Diamond process unfolds.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. I'm just going to bring in Llyr at this stage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bethan said in an earlier answer that, I think, the financial forecasting from universities forecast something pretty consistent in terms of what they're hoping to be receiving in income, for example. But we've already discussed the near 10 per cent drop, potentially, in international applications. So, does that tally, really, or are they going to be recruiting additional students from the UK market or--? What's the plan?
Bethan Owen: I was reflecting on the last point when we had consistent information across the sector.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, they may need to revisit that in the light of this.
Bethan Owen: I'm expecting that the forecast that we get at the end of this month will reflect the reduced applications we've seen, and an element of that will be reflected in reduced improvements as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, we don't really know, then, whether--it's unlikely that they are going to expect a consistent fee income, really.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say we would expect them to respond to what they're seeing in the UCAS process. Even if they didn't, they would all, in any case, have sensitivities for what they would do if things don't come out in the way they hope. And if they didn't have that then we would be on their case, of course, because we want them to be properly sighted.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Thanks.
John Griffiths AM: And we have to stick to the Brexit impact. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask, in terms of the impact of Brexit, have you done any assessment of what you think might happen, or have any of the institutions made available to you any assessments of what they think is likely to happen to their individual institutions, going forward? You've mentioned scenarios earlier on, David, so what scenarios have you set out?
Dr David Blaney: There's a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group, which is chaired by one of the Government directors, and we sit on that. And we have provided that group with early summaries of the risks and the potential impact, in terms of the exposure of the sector to EU-sourced funding. We have, as part of that working group, explored those issues that it would be really very helpful for either the Welsh Government to try to put in place or for the Welsh Government to persuade UK Government to do. And I think, in our submission, we identified a number of areas of what we would consider to be a helpful action, and that has been worked through that working group. We know that it has informed Welsh Government's position, in terms of what it does and also in terms of the conversations that they have with Her Majesty's Government. Beyond that, what we haven't done in that working group is share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios. We are not able to do that here either because, inevitably, they would have varying degrees of unpalatability and they would have to be managed very, very carefully. You take cost out, which is essentially the response, you actually take people's jobs out, and all of that has to be managed carefully. So, that's not really a matter for public consideration, but we do know that the institutions are looking at a range of scenarios on what they would do. Bethan mentioned earlier on that the current deficit for the sector is a managed deficit--it's not something that has taken them by surprise. They are responding to what they see as the dip between where Diamond was reporting and where the money starts flowing. Similarly, I think we're comfortable that there is a managed approach to the scenarios that they're testing within institutions. So, they will do what they need to do to sustain themselves. The bigger issue really, in a public policy context, is the potential damage for the sector to be able to deliver for Wales in terms of research and skills development and all the other contributions.
Darren Millar AM: So, you're confident that they're taking a robust approach to planning for various scenarios, going forward, are you, as individual HEIs?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and as the deal becomes more clear politically, then they will obviously have greater clarity in terms of which of these scenarios they need to work up more fully, but they are sighted on it.
Darren Millar AM: Okay. Can I just ask about fee and access plans, and how Brexit might impact them? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted?
Dr David Blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there. Fee and access plans are approved annually by us. They are approved in advance of the recruitment cycle for the year that they apply to. So, we're just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 2019-20 academic year. So, there's quite a long lead time. We, as part of that process, go through similar--we look at their financial sustainability, which is based on their forecasts--data to the stuff we've just been discussing. And also, of course, the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types, from different domains, are going to be recruited. So, clearly, if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment, then that will reduce the amount of fee income that's going to come in, unless they can find other students, and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans. In terms of process, we have two things that we can do. If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they've submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality, then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan. So, we have a change process. If it's not fundamentally different, but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later--. We also monitor after the event and, if there are differences, we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences. If they've had fewer students and less investment, we would need to understand that. Conversely, if they'd had more students, and potentially more investment, we'd want to know what they'd spent it on, and if they've done different things, we'd want to understand that as well. So, we do challenge through a monitoring process. The only other thing that's perhaps worth saying is that, in the 2019-20 fee and access plans--they're not published yet, so I can't give you the full detail--five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact, and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues, so they're in there as well.
Darren Millar AM: But we've already said, haven't we, that it may be nothing to do with Brexit, this dip in EU recruitment, because there are other factors like the attractiveness of the estates and the environment that young people might be educated in? But they're making assumptions that it's linked to Brexit, are they?
Dr David Blaney: Not really. I think they're making assumptions that it could be. There are things they want to do to enhance and to protect student mobility, and some of that will be funded through fee plan investment. So, the Brexit conversation between the EU and the UK Government might or might not sustain Erasmus engagement, and if it doesn't, then they need to find other ways of trying to support that sort of thing. So, that's what we're beginning to see in the fee plans. It's them thinking about how else we can do this stuff.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Darren? Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: You mentioned the fee and access report. What else do you do to assure yourselves that Welsh higher education institutions are effectively planning for Brexit?
Bethan Owen: We've touched on contingency plans, but, in an environment of uncertainty, I think it's difficult for any of us to know what the right scenario is. I think rather than looking at worst-case scenarios, what the sector is also focusing on is the promotion and looking for additional or increased sources of funding. So, we touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales, so more focus on marketing Wales overseas, but also within the UK. The other area where the sector is working at a UK level very hard is making the arguments to UK Government for maintaining access to the successor to Horizon 2020, which is arguably a larger part of the whole funding infrastructure--students is one part, but the whole funding infrastructure for maintaining research capacity. So, working with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level for maintaining access to those sources of funding is also a part of what the institutions are doing. We mentioned the Welsh Government's HE Brexit group. That group, which is the Welsh Government group, is being advised by members on it, and that's informing Welsh Government officials when they engage with UK Government as well.
Mark Reckless AM: Do universities seek your advice on what the risks and, indeed, opportunities of Brexit may be and what you think they should be doing to plan for them, or is your role more one of monitoring what they do as opposed to advising what they should do?
Bethan Owen: They are autonomous institutions and ultimately their governing bodies are responsible for ensuring their sustainability. It's not a relationship where we would advise and direct, but it is a relationship where we would question the scenarios if we consider from our experience that we would have expected other scenarios to have been tested. It's that nature of conversation, rather than directing.
Mark Reckless AM: I understand you don't direct, of course, but my question was about advising. You're overseeing, or monitoring--or whatever you like to describe the role as--quite a number of institutions, and presumably you therefore have particular expertise within your organisation, and I just wondered whether higher education institutions are doing enough to draw on that.
Bethan Owen: I think we can advise--we can advise based on data and information that we can see. We can advise based on our judgment. The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario is the uncertainty and the extent to which our speculation is better informed than the governing bodies or the sector collectively is probably the issue.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's right. So, there's a relationship with the sector and there's a relationship with individual institutions, and they are different. So, we have engagement collectively with the sector. Bethan meets with the finance directors, and I meet with the vice-chancellors. We actually have the sector and the funding council together on the Welsh Government's group. So, some of these conversations are happening in various ways, where we're all gaining intelligence about what might be a sensible set of planning assumptions. Then, if we see an institution that is manifestly giving signs of not being sighted on some of these risks, either through their forecast or through other assurance activity, we will challenge. We have an annual cycle, with two points in the year where we reassess the overall risks of individual institutions, and that's based on a whole range of hard data but also a range of soft data. Our links into institutions are many and varied. We have lots of conversations and we take all of that in the round and form an assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions but also the extent to which we think their governance and management arrangements are properly sighted and facing properly the challenges that they face. In some ways, we say it's not about the challenges they face; it's about how they face the challenges. Our alarm bells really ring when we get the sense that, actually, either an executive or a governing body hasn't really noticed. We're not in that place, I'm really pleased to say. I'm not worried about short-term crisis with any of the institutions. There are medium-term real challenges, both because of Brexit and because of other contextual factors, but at the moment the sector is a managed sector, which is good. It's not always like that, but we're in, I think, a good place at the moment. So, our role is definitely to challenge where we don't think they are making sensible assessments, but it's not to say that their assessment is wrong and ours is right; it's just to have a conversation about,'Why have you done this and what has informed your thinking?'It's slightly more one step back and slightly more subtle, but it is, as you imply, us using the intelligence we gain from all of those conversations when we talk to individual institutions as well.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. We had evidence last week from some of the higher education institutions, including Cardiff University, and it's very interesting, in relation to Erasmus+ and the mobility funding for students that, I think, only 40 per cent of the mobility funding in Cardiff is paid for by Erasmus+. I note that you've been consulting on national measures for higher education performance and that one possibility is using international mobility as a performance indicator. I was just wondering whether you might go further and expect universities to actually make commitments to funding international mobility from their own fee incomes as part of that.
Bethan Owen: Again, reflecting on the latest fee and access plans, seven of the universities are referring to mobility--either they have targets in them or are explaining what their plans are--so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income. However, Erasmus is such a well-established and long-term plan--if we were looking at a scenario where that infrastructure wasn't available, to implement anything similar to that would be much less efficient and much more costly. And to enable an infrastructure that allowed--. Ideally, you'd want something that all Welsh institutions could take part in, and that takes some investment and some co-ordinating. And, equally, you need to have the arrangements with your overseas and European institutions. I think it's easy to underestimate the accumulation of time that has gone into establishing Erasmus. So, I think replacing it would be a challenge.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And the point was made clearly last week that the brand is internationally recognised. When you enter into Erasmus+, you know exactly what you're going to get, and all of that. But there have been criticisms as well about degrees of flexibility and this, that and the other, so I'm just wondering whether--and there is presumably going to be some change on that front although I'm hoping we can buy into it, as others have done who aren't in the EU--that emphasis on encouraging institutions to look more proactively at funding their own mobility efforts would be positive.
Dr David Blaney: I think the--
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Sorry--especially if it means that they do more of it.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. I think the Welsh sector is definitely committed to trying to find ways of promoting and resourcing that sort of mobility. There are signs that some of the restrictive elements of the Erasmus programme are going to change anyway, because that's under development and that's positive. There have been positive noises as part of the Brexit negotiations about wanting to carry on being able to access the Erasmus programme. Nothing is agreed until it's all agreed apparently, so we'll have to see on that one. That would be far better, I think, as Bethan indicates, than trying to replace it with a made-in-Wales only, but you could have a made-in-Wales on top. All of these challenges also create opportunities because they stimulate thinking, and so the fact that seven of the eight universities are already now using their fee plans as a vehicle for thinking about this is positive, and I think we can take that on from there.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because that 40/60 split struck me as being the opposite to what I perceived the situation to be. A key part of your role is to work in partnership with students, so I'd just like to ask what work have you done with students, in terms of maybe protecting their interests as the Brexit scenario evolves?
Dr David Blaney: Well, as you say, we do work with students. We were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales. We work very closely with them and the president of NUS is an observer on our council. So, we have close links with NUS Wales and we're very proud of that, and it's very productive. They don't have a vote, but they do have a voice and it really matters. We we're, again, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. The UK-wide quality code also has elements in it where arrangements have to be specified about the protection of student interests. That is particularly, in essence, around circumstances where a provider gets into difficulties and they might wish to close a course or something more drastic and then what arrangements are in place to make sure that those students who are in train are protected. So, that is there and we've worked hard with the sector and with NUS Wales to get those measures in place. There's more development work in train at the moment, so we've asked Universities Wales to construct a protection that takes account of the approach to protecting the student interests in higher education. We're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important. The students who are HE students in FE are absolutely not second-best, and they should have the same protections.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is all this a general piece of work? It's not Brexit-specific, although, no doubt, it may--.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's fair to say, yes. The other dimension around Brexit is the immigration status of EU students, and that's, kind of, beyond our pay scale--that's a UK Government issue.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is that something that you have a view on?
Dr David Blaney: It's clearly in the interest of the enrichment of the curriculum and the student experience for students in Welsh institutions to be able to have students from other EU countries in the mix. So, it would be nice to find ways of continuing to facilitate that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Now, of course, you have a statutory duty as well to assess the academic quality of the work in our higher education institutions, and I'm just wondering what potential impacts you think that Brexit might have on that particular aspect.
Dr David Blaney: I think there are possibly a couple of things to say, and one, in a sense, echoes what I was just saying in the final part of my previous response, which is that part of the quality of the student experience is the richness that you get from having students in your cohort who have different backgrounds and different perspectives. So, if there is a continuing reduction in the number of EU students coming into Welsh institutions, then that richness deteriorates. That doesn't mean to say that the base or the threshold standard of what's required for a degree will come under pressure, it's just about the richness on top of that, which will be, in a sense, a quality-enhancement issue. That would be something that we would wish to try to protect against, but in the end you can't force EU students to come--you have to try and look attractive, and we've touched on that. The baseline requirement assessment of quality will not be affected by Brexit, except in so far as the machinery we use to discharge our statutory responsibility, which is through the Quality Assurance Agency, which themselves are accredited with European Association for Quality Assurance in Higher Education, the European machinery for higher education quality. And there's a set of standards around that, and we would obviously wish not to be in a position where our ability to use and adhere to those standards is adversely impacted upon. Those standards will still exist, and it will be possible for the British system to adhere to them, even if they're not actually able to play in the same way. Then the only other thing I would say is that one of the factors that can cause the quality of the learning and teaching experience to be likely to become inadequate is when institutions come under financial pressure, just because their capacity to maintain the same sort of student experience can get under pressure. So, clearly, we will be looking for and making sure that institutions manage the financial pressures, if there are any--and there are some at the moment, as we've described--and manage those carefully. And in all of that, we will expect institutions to do their duty to make sure that the commitments they've already made to students are carried through. So, where students have already started on the course, they need to be able to finish that course--you can't just pull the plug out. So, all of that comes into the arrangements for quality as well. So, we'll be keeping an eye on that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. A lot of what you've told us in the last three quarters of an hour or so will have costs attached, depending on the impacts. Certainly, we're in choppy waters as a sector anyway, and the risk is that things will be even more choppy, if you'll excuse that level of political interpretation, over the years to come. I'm just wondering what advice you might have given the Welsh Government in terms of what level of transition funding, or Brexit transition funding, might be required by the sector, and if you have, what the Welsh Government might have told you.
Bethan Owen: I mentioned earlier that, obviously, we've provided information in terms of the assumptions that the sector are making on income. So, for the year 2017-18, that was PS129 million. I think the extent to which that needs to be replaced or supported with transition funding depends absolutely on what the final arrangements for Brexit are, but it's an appropriate point to refer to the report that Professor Graeme Reid has produced, commissioned by Welsh Government. That was, and has, provided advice and recommendations for supporting research and innovation in the transition period. But, again, the Reid recommendations in that report build on the Diamond recommendations, and as soon as Diamond is in place--and Reid is providing recommendations in addition, to establish funding on the basis that the funding needs to be available in Wales to maintain and develop and strengthen the research and innovation infrastructure that we have.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you not worried, though, that the clock is ticking and that we really don't know what the situation is at this point?
Dr David Blaney: Do you mean the Brexit situation?
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The Brexit clock, yes.
Dr David Blaney: Uncertainty is unhelpful, because as I've said several times, the sector is a managed sector at the moment. I don't think there's--. We're not seeing maverick stuff, but actually you can only manage, really, what you can see and what you can reasonably predict. So, the longer the uncertainty persists, the more difficult that is for institutional management and, indeed, for the rest of the machinery to support them. So, yes, the sooner we get clarity, the better for everybody, I imagine.
Darren Millar AM: Chair, can I just ask a question?
John Griffiths AM: Yes, Darren.
Darren Millar AM: In terms of uncertainty, though, we've still got this uncertainty over whether the extra cash that the Government's going to have to spend as a result of Diamond being implemented is coming to the HE sector. They've given a political commitment, but you've got absolutely no other assurance of the sums of money that are coming in. We've got the reform of tertiary education arrangements in Wales, which are also under way, so it's a bit of a perfect storm for you, isn't it, really, with all of these three things happening at the same time?
Dr David Blaney: We're certainly kept busy.
Darren Millar AM: But two of those things are in the gift of the Welsh Government to sort out for you, aren't they?
Dr David Blaney: Well, the policy on the reform of the post-compulsory sector absolutely is a Welsh Government policy. The extent to which they can pre-empt a budgetary process and give us clear sight of the amount of money in future years is--. Well, again, it's not for me to comment. My understanding is that that's difficult for them to do, and I would repeat what I said earlier: officials have been as helpful as I think they can be in respect of that. I mean, you're right, we've only got a political commitment between two people currently in post. It would be great to have that firmer. I'm not sure how that could be done.
Darren Millar AM: I mean, that statement about the savings accrued from Diamond being reinvested wholly into the HE sector has not been repeated, frankly, has it, since the coalition deal was struck?
Dr David Blaney: No, but it hasn't been rescinded either, so--.
Darren Millar AM: No, but there have been opportunities--repeated opportunities--in the Chamber, where the Cabinet Secretary's been asked to repeat that commitment, and the First Minister's been asked to repeat that commitment and has not given that commitment. That must concern you, and must concern your university sector even more than, perhaps, some of the elements of Brexit that we're discussing.
Dr David Blaney: Bethan has outlined earlier on in this session the fact that institutions are currently running deficit budgets in order not to lose the infrastructure on the assumption that the Diamond money will come in. If anything were to cause significant perturbation, either to the timeline of that or to it coming in at all, then there would be much more of what Medwin Hughes calls'houskeeping'that would be required, and that would be significant. So, at the moment--I don't like the expression'valley of death', but there is a valley to cross, and I think the sector is reasonably confident about how wide and how deep that valley is. There's a demographic valley as well. So, there are several valleys that they're crossing--the metaphor fails, doesn't it, really, but I think you get the drift? So, there are a number of challenges and they can see their way out of some of those challenges, but if any one of these starts to get significantly disrupted, then that would be a real issue for them.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I go on to ask about other barriers to Welsh universities gaining more funding from UK research councils? What would you say those barriers are?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think there are a couple of things, really, to say. The first one--and we'll sound like a stuck record if we're not careful--is that there's an issue about investment and the Reid report makes this very clear. So, he has reaffirmed research that had been done previously that identifies that, actually, the quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them, and that, in the end, is a product of investment decisions. They have particularly looked at the deficit in science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas, and I always say that research is not just STEM. I mean, STEM is important, and I'm not denying the deficit in that area, but we have to also remember that the research agenda for Wales is not just STEM--it's arts, humanities, it's social sciences. If you look at the impact on public policy that could come from social science research--tremendous. And we're very good at it in Wales. The Welsh impact in its research is better than anywhere else in the UK, so that's good. So, they do very well, and we just really need to invest a little bit further--so continue to do very well, but put it on a broader front. If you want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, then the investment has two dimensions to it. One is just having enough researchers to be able to play into those increasingly larger projects rather than small-scale projects. If you haven't got the critical mass, it's very hard to make the case that you can play. And the second thing is that UK-wide research pots nearly always fund at about 80 per cent of the total cost of the research, and the other 20 per cent is meant to be found from the core research funding for the university, and if you're in a situation where your core research funding is not competitive, then you're not going to be competitive at getting that money. So, that's, kind of, straightforward. There are other things. I think it's fair to say that the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils, making sure they're in the various committees and so on. We are intending to do a bit of work to see if we can systematise that a bit better--that engagement--because there's no doubt about it: it's not to say that this system is in any way inappropriate, but the more you're in the conversations, the more likely you are to be better placed to respond to the research challenges that come up.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. One final question: in terms of the researcher collaborations and networks that exist, do you see potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of those, and are there any particular lessons to learn from Ser Cymru II?
Dr David Blaney: I think that there are two things to say here as well. First of all, the Brexit deal might or might not impact adversely on the capacity of Welsh and, indeed, UK research infrastructure to play into broader collaborative activity across Europe, and, in a sense, that's a function of the deal whatever the deal looks like, and we'll have to wait and see. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. It's not just the money, it's being in the club and it's the signalling that we're in the game. So, all of that would be important. And then the other part of my response to this would be that, actually, Wales will need to continue to be good at the research it does, so maintaining the quality, maintaining the impact, and hopefully growing the critical mass. The Ser Cymru initiative has been quite important in doing that, because it's been very focused, capturing key research players, and the attractiveness that that has then to other researchers around them, and to industry collaboration, and they have been areas of real strength that we've invested in. And I think they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Just one further point, from Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Just very briefly, one of the pieces of feedback that the committee members received at a stakeholder engagement event, which took place prior to this inquiry starting, to receive oral evidence, was about the research funding that is available from the charitable sector, and how poorly Wales does in attracting some of that research. I think we had some figures from the British Heart Foundation, which said they have PS100 million a year available for research grants, or something like that, and we're getting 1 per cent of that coming into Wales, which is obviously pretty low down. I appreciate that research into the type of activity that they want to put their money into, Wales may not be particularly good at, and there may be other opportunities with other charities and partnerships. What work are you doing in order to build the capacity that Wales has to attract more of that charitable sector research funding into Wales?
Bethan Owen: One of the issues is the capacity to engage with that funding, because of the overhead issue that David mentioned. Charitable funding at the moment doesn't attract any overhead funding. Again, that could be built in to our funding, if we had the capacity to increase our quality-related research funding. There is an element in England.
Darren Millar AM: But that pressure's the same in other parts of the UK, is it not? So the overhead funding is still an issue in England, and in other places.
Bethan Owen: There is an increased contribution, and I think it's an element that was increased this year to acknowledge that. But there will be differentiation between different charities. I'm fairly certain that some of our institutions will be very strong with the cancer charities, possibly not the heart foundation. And some of that will reflect on focusing on our strengths, but to have that fuller picture.
Darren Millar AM: So, this gearing issue that you mentioned earlier on, for every PS1 that somebody else puts on the table, they can draw in another PS4 on top, because that PS1 will cover the overheads, whereas the rest of the research cash--.
Dr David Blaney: That's exactly it. So, the more you're able to invest--. You know, we sometimes get into a conversation about the unhypothecated nature of our research funding, but actually that creates a flexibility and the infrastructure investment that allows institutions to be able to respond to these other opportunities. Without that, they can't do it, because if you're not careful, you've got institutions engaging in UK-wide or charity-based research activities where they're actually having to pay for it themselves--they're running at a loss.
Darren Millar AM: So that's the main problem; it's not that Welsh universities aren't doing their best to get this cash in. Or is it a bit of both?
Dr David Blaney: I think, in the main, universities and researchers will get their cash from wherever they can, so I don't think it's a lack of appetite.
Darren Millar AM: Okay.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, thank you, both, for coming in to give evidence to the committee this morning. You will be sent a draft of the transcript, to check for accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay then, the next item is item 3, papers to note, the first of which is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the school organisation code. The second is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Chair of the Finance Committee regarding scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for the forthcoming financial year, which we will be discussing under item 6 on the agenda. Paper to note 4 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on parental attitudes towards managing young children's behaviour. And the final paper to note, paper to note 5, is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the children and family delivery grant, which we will discuss later on in private session, if Members are content. Okay. Are you content to note those papers on that basis? Okay. Thanks very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, and also for items 1 and 2 of the 20 September meeting. Is the committee content? Yes. Thank you very much. We will move then into private session. | They were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. They're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important. | qmsum |
What are the other barriers to Welsh universities gaining more funding from UK research councils?
Gareth Rogers: Good morning, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Unfortunately, the Chair is unable to attend today, so in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22 I call for nominations for a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting.
Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.
Gareth Rogers: Thank you.
Darren Millar AM: I'll second that nomination.
Gareth Rogers: As there's only one nomination, I declare that John Griffiths has been appointed as temporary Chair. Thank you, John.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you all very much, and item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've received apologies from Hefin David and Lynne Neagle. There are no substitutions. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2, and our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education, and our first evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales here today, and Dr David Blaney as chief executive, and Bethan Owen, director of institutional engagement. Welcome to you both. Thanks for coming along to give evidence today. If it's okay with you, we'll move straight to questions, and Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Good morning. Bore da. I wondered if we could start off with you telling us what evidence you can see that the Brexit process has had any impact on Welsh higher education so far.
Dr David Blaney: Can I preface the response by just reminding you that we are, by contract and by role, apolitical, and a lot of the judgments about the impact of Brexit essentially reflect where people sit politically in terms of whether they think it's a good thing or a bad thing? We're not going to go there, obviously, today, so we'll stick to the facts as we can see them, and hopefully we'll be able to help you, but there are areas where we are unable to help. That's part of the reason.
John Griffiths AM: We certainly do not expect you to enter the political fray in any way.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you. But even in terms of your assessment of whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing, a good impact or a bad impact, some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it, so we will be as careful as we can be on that. In terms of the impact of Brexit on higher education, clearly, the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales. So, we fund provision; we don't fund providers, technically, although obviously there's not much provision without providers. So, we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers, but fundamentally the issue is: what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales, and what impact might Brexit have on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales? So, we know that universities make annually about PS5 billion of impact; 50,000 jobs. Of course, in Wales, all of that economic impact is really very significant, and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment. That has an impact in a number of ways. We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU, so EU students, structural funds, and EU research funding, and so on, from the EU. We can identify some of that, but, actually, what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about. We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I'll ask Bethan to share some details on that in a moment. We're also beginning to pick up, only anecdotally, some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector, and the Welsh sector as part of that, in playing in some of the EU collaborative research activities. And that, I think, just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period. We don't have data on that--that's anecdotal--but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult. In terms of the financial impact of that, clearly, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of the money--we're almost immediately straight into politics if you're not careful--but some of the money will be available back to the UK, and the extent to which Wales benefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Government. It's not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in that relationship, but that will become a matter of politics. There's a broader dimension, which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that. I think it's very hard for us to be definitive about how that's going to play out. I think that depends on the deal and how it all unfolds over the next several years. But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how that plays for institutions remains to be seen. We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it. So, in terms of recruitment, Bethan.
Bethan Owen: This is based on the UCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June, 30 June. The European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent, which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for English institutions, and non-EU--so international students, not from Europe--have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions, again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England. So, those are the signs of changes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment?
Bethan Owen: The funding position would be the main pressure. The recommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented, and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effect from this September. However, the recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. That funding, when it returns to institutions, is intended to re-establish funding for higher cost provision, both full time and part time; reinstate funding for innovation; and maintain, at the very least, the research funding in real terms. Universities, in the meantime, are trying to minimise the cost reductions that they're making in order to maintain the infrastructure, so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it. We have announced our funding allocations for 2018-19. For the research and teaching grant, though, we are still funding at a lower level--PS12. 5 million less--then the starting point for the Diamond report, the 2015-16 starting report. But we expect to be able to start introducing funding from 2019-20 to make a start on implementing Diamond. And it's probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit, therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition to those that the Diamond report was addressing. The other pressures relate to student recruitment. I mentioned the EU and international students. There is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled and English-domiciled applications to Wales. Enrolments are obviously the key important number, which we'll see later. And the other pressures include pay and pension costs, not least the issues around the universities superannuation scheme pension fund, where there's potentially a significant increase in cost. Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure and borrowing, which bring their own pressures. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding--the Augar review.
John Griffiths AM: In terms of European Union students and enrolment, is Wales forecast to do less well than England and, if so, why might that be?
Bethan Owen: They are not forecasting it. It's very difficult until the enrolments are made, and it's also very hard to see--the data that we see is the UCAS data. Institutions also recruit directly, so until we see the actual recruitment--. I think the arrangements that have changed from 2018-19 also impact on EU students. So, now, they have to find the full fee, whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students. So, I'm speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students'appetite to come.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. First of all Llyr, then Mark.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, that's straight into what I was going to ask, really, about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 per cent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales, where we see a 2 per cent increase in England. Is that it, or are there other things that you've taken into account? What's your assessment of the reasons behind this?
Dr David Blaney: It's very difficult to be definitive about the reasons, but I think there are probably two. The one that Bethan has already indicated, which is the change in student support arrangements for EU students, will have an effect of perturbation. That's probably relatively temporary--let's hope it is--as that settles down because, actually, the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming into England. Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower, but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. So, getting the messages out is a challenge. The other dimension is that when you're in a highly competitive recruitment market, you have to do what you can to look attractive. Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities, and particularly buildings and kit, and the relative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that. Certainly, anecdotally I know, from my own family, that a lot of the choices have been made in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on. There's something rational about that, isn't there? If you've got a system that is relatively better invested, then you're likely to have a better student experience because the resources are likely to be better. So, that's not irrational. We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the PS9,000 fee maximum limit came in, and some institutions, mostly in England--there was one in Wales--chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low, relative to that PS9,000, and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind. So, the price sensitivities work quite differently. So, again, if you've got a relatively better invested part of the system, then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That latter factor would affect the whole of the cohort, not just the international recruitment, of course.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. Yes, indeed. The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that's re-balancing where the policy of investment goes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. And Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: If I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the applications from non-EU students were also down by 8 per cent or 9 per cent. So, forgive me a certain scepticism about the explanation of the fall in the EU students being that they did get the fee grant and now they do not. If that's the explanation, why are we seeing the same fall in non-EU applications?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think the Welsh domiciled are also now having to face the prospect of finding a loan for the whole of the fee. So, that would potentially account for that. There's also a demographic dimension here with the downturn in the 18-year-old school-leaver profile, and that actually is happening in Wales at a slightly later point than in England.
Mark Reckless AM: But this is non-EU students, and I think you said, Bethan, an 8 per cent or 9 per cent fall in them as well.
Dr David Blaney: International non-EU. I beg your pardon. I misunderstood.
Bethan Owen: There's also a mix effect. I gave a number that was for all English institutions that there will be differential impacts on.
Mark Reckless AM: All English or all Welsh?
Bethan Owen: Well, I contrasted the Welsh position with the English position where they were seeing growth. If you look, then--and we don't have the detailed information, but, again, what UCAS publish is some analysis by tariff. They analyse by type of institution--in other words, the grades that you need to get into institutions--and there is a trend for growth being in the higher tariff institutions. So, there's a mix effect in there as well, and I think there's undoubtedly an element of perception of how welcome overseas and international students are, and that's something that we know the sector are working on with Government.
Mark Reckless AM: Why would that affect Wales more than England? Do you think there's been perhaps too great a negativity about Brexit in the sector?
Bethan Owen: I think it's the mix of institutions that we have. So, we only have sector information published at the moment. When we look at the mix of institutions that we have, we will probably see a differential impact between Cardiff University and others.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? Sorry, David, did you want to add anything?
Dr David Blaney: I was just going to say that we would expect to see quite differential performance in the English sector, so the overall numbers are being brought up by substantial increased performance with some of that sector, and it's a question of how many of that type of institution you have in Wales.
Mark Reckless AM: So, performance is increasing amongst the English universities, but not amongst the Welsh, you think.
Dr David Blaney: I think performance is increasing, but increasing substantially with some of the English sector, not all of it. So, you get an average for the sector that is increased performance, but actually the stronger players within that sector, with the stronger international profiles, are bringing that up, and we have fewer in Wales that have that sort of presence.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Would it be fair to say, then, that the universities over the border in England are better at selling themselves internationally than our Welsh institutions? Or is it just this fact that we've got fewer very high tariff universities versus the English market?
Dr David Blaney: I suspect, and this is speculation--I suspect that it's a bit of both. I think some of it is to do with the mix of different types of institution. I would then come back to the point I was making about the Anglocentric nature of the UK media. If you're looking overseas, I think Wales has to work harder to penetrate the consciousness.
Darren Millar AM: But, forgive me, don't international students just look at the UK as a whole? How are we comparing to Scotland, for example, or Northern Ireland, in terms of their universities? Do you have a comparative figure for Scottish universities?
Bethan Owen: I haven't got that one with me for now, but there will be one in the data.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, we could get that.
Bethan Owen: Again, it's a combination of being part of the UK but differentiating, and the ability to differentiate the strengths of Wales, so attracting those students to Wales specifically, on top of the UK draw.
Dr David Blaney: So, in terms of the efforts that have been made, there's a programme now that is being run by the sector in Wales--it's'Study in Wales'. It's relatively recent; you could argue that we could have got there earlier. But that is a determined collective effort to present Wales as a good place to study, with particular messages about what distinguishes studying in Wales from studying more broadly in the UK. In a sense, that is responding to the need to increase the presence of Wales in an international market. So, that sort of initiative I think is very good, very welcome. It will take a while to actually have an impact, but I think that's exactly the sort of work the sector need to be doing more of.
Mark Reckless AM: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: One of them in particular is relative safety. We know that one of the considerations, particularly for parents of overseas students, is are they going to go to a safe environment, and we know that the perception of international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be. That's partly a function of the size of our larger cities--quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England. So, that's a key message. Being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well. So, we've got a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, but it's available in a way that is safer and more supportive, I think is the messaging that's coming through.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. We'd better move on, I think, hadn't we? Darren, then.
Darren Millar AM: I just wonder to what extent you have been able to plan in your financial forecasts for the next few years ahead for the potential impacts of Brexit. What have you built in, if anything?
Bethan Owen: In terms of our funding, we receive our funding annually, but the sector provides us with financial forecasts, and we use those for monitoring sustainability. So, the last full forecasts that we had were in July 2017. We are due to receive a full forecast at the end of this month, and we obviously have updated information from institutions.
Darren Millar AM: And they're three-year forecasts that come through to you, aren't they?
Bethan Owen: They are four plus the current year. So, we've got numbers to 2019-20 at the moment, and expect to go to 2020-21.
Darren Millar AM: And what are the universities expecting? What do they anticipate?
Bethan Owen: Well, for 2017-18, which is the year we're about to end now, they were expecting PS38 million income from European students, and approximately PS91 million from the various European programme funding sources, and that's about 8 per cent of the total income--PS1. 5 billion--of the sector. The forecasts are assuming that that continues, albeit that institutions have various scenarios that they have for all sorts of scenarios that we can all speculate on, and, as I mentioned earlier, the balancing act of maintaining infrastructure and resources and staff in the short term is where we are at the moment, or where the sector is at the moment. And there are also signs that the banks and lending institutions are becoming a bit more risk-averse in providing borrowing to institutions, and of more differentiation between individual institutions being made than has possibly been the case in the past. The sector made an operating deficit, again looking at all Welsh institutions collectively last year, 2016-17, of PS17 million. That's before other gains and losses. And we're expecting a similar collective level of deficit for this financial year, if not slightly higher. Now, these are managed deficits and we are not currently seeing critical short-term cash availability issues in the sector. However, the increase in funding from Diamond is a key part of enabling the sector to return to longer-term financial sustainability. Short-term challenges can be met if there's a reasonable prospect of future funding. You can manage in the short-term, but there comes a point when the big cost reductions and infrastructure reductions have to be made. And, again, having mentioned the pressures on pay, pensions and other challenges, it is difficult to gauge whether, if those factors come into play as well, some of these cost reductions may have to be made before funding comes in to replace--either Diamond funding or the European replacement funding.
Darren Millar AM: So, would it be fair to say that, in terms of the funding arrangements, and, in terms of the student numbers, one reason why we've got this recruitment problem is this lack of investment in the capital infrastructure that we've seen in recent years because of the financing arrangements from the Welsh Government, and the fee regime that we had previously, and the student finance regime that we had previously, not getting more cash into our Welsh universities perhaps, and that, over the next few years, there's going to have to be much more significant investment in capital if we're to raise the game and be more competitive, yes?
Bethan Owen: Yes, that would be fair to say.
Darren Millar AM: So, to what extent are they planning for more capital investment in those financial strategies that they've been preparing and presenting to you?
Bethan Owen: They are all planning for capital investment. They are in different positions in terms of capacity to borrow and the assumptions. This year, 2018-19, is the first time that we've had capital funding in our remit letter--so, we've got PS10 million of capital funding, which is very welcome, with a prospect of a further PS20 million. So, that we will be allocating shortly. That will make a difference, particularly to those institutions who are not finding it as easy to borrow from financial institutions. Some of our larger institutions have borrowed--Cardiff University issued a bond. However, there are internal governance processes that are putting tight restrictions and expectations of what that money will be invested in. But they all have plans to do it and they need the confidence that their forecasts and long-term future funding prospects are secure enough that they can get the confidence of borrowers then, and service the costs of those borrowers.
Darren Millar AM: So, the Diamond dividend you've mentioned a few times. What clarity is there from the Welsh Government at the moment in terms of how much they anticipate the Diamond dividend will be, and what proportion of that is going to be released to HEIs in the future?
Bethan Owen: I was very carefully not describing it as a dividend--a re-establishing of funding that we had in the past for higher cost and innovation and maintaining research funding. The timescales are difficult, because we have an annual remit letter, and we can work with Welsh Government officials, and they can only give us a sense of when they think the funding will be released. But 2018-19 is the start of the system, and because of cohort protection--so, protecting those students who came in on a different deal to the deal from 2018-19--in the early years there is an element of double cost; there's a cost of seeing out the old system and the different cost of implementing the new system. So, at the moment, we're certainly not in a position to tell the sector with any degree of certainty what funding would be beyond what we've allocated for 2018-19, with some sense of what 2019-20 numbers we're working with because we allocate our money over an academic year--so, by definition, we've already made assumptions of four months of the 2019-20 funding, albeit that's not approved yet in the budgetary process.
Darren Millar AM: But you're not being given a steer at all as to what you expect the additional resource that you might have to make available to Welsh universities might be as a result of Diamond. You must have some idea.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that officials have been as helpful as they can be with us, in terms of the planning assumptions we make and indications about whether or not we are being too ambitious or not ambitious enough. So, I think they're being very helpful; as Bethan said, they're constrained by the process--they can't pre-empt a budget process. And you folks will be fully aware of that, of course. The other question I think you asked was how much of the money released by the new arrangements will come into higher education. At the moment, we are expecting all of it to come into higher education, as the product of the arrangement between the current Cabinet Secretary and the current First Minister. The extent to which any changes there cause that to come under threat is something I can't judge at the moment. But we have had in our remit letter from the Cabinet Secretary a clear indication that we can expect our resource to grow over the next few years, as the Diamond process unfolds.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. I'm just going to bring in Llyr at this stage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bethan said in an earlier answer that, I think, the financial forecasting from universities forecast something pretty consistent in terms of what they're hoping to be receiving in income, for example. But we've already discussed the near 10 per cent drop, potentially, in international applications. So, does that tally, really, or are they going to be recruiting additional students from the UK market or--? What's the plan?
Bethan Owen: I was reflecting on the last point when we had consistent information across the sector.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, they may need to revisit that in the light of this.
Bethan Owen: I'm expecting that the forecast that we get at the end of this month will reflect the reduced applications we've seen, and an element of that will be reflected in reduced improvements as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, we don't really know, then, whether--it's unlikely that they are going to expect a consistent fee income, really.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say we would expect them to respond to what they're seeing in the UCAS process. Even if they didn't, they would all, in any case, have sensitivities for what they would do if things don't come out in the way they hope. And if they didn't have that then we would be on their case, of course, because we want them to be properly sighted.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Thanks.
John Griffiths AM: And we have to stick to the Brexit impact. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask, in terms of the impact of Brexit, have you done any assessment of what you think might happen, or have any of the institutions made available to you any assessments of what they think is likely to happen to their individual institutions, going forward? You've mentioned scenarios earlier on, David, so what scenarios have you set out?
Dr David Blaney: There's a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group, which is chaired by one of the Government directors, and we sit on that. And we have provided that group with early summaries of the risks and the potential impact, in terms of the exposure of the sector to EU-sourced funding. We have, as part of that working group, explored those issues that it would be really very helpful for either the Welsh Government to try to put in place or for the Welsh Government to persuade UK Government to do. And I think, in our submission, we identified a number of areas of what we would consider to be a helpful action, and that has been worked through that working group. We know that it has informed Welsh Government's position, in terms of what it does and also in terms of the conversations that they have with Her Majesty's Government. Beyond that, what we haven't done in that working group is share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios. We are not able to do that here either because, inevitably, they would have varying degrees of unpalatability and they would have to be managed very, very carefully. You take cost out, which is essentially the response, you actually take people's jobs out, and all of that has to be managed carefully. So, that's not really a matter for public consideration, but we do know that the institutions are looking at a range of scenarios on what they would do. Bethan mentioned earlier on that the current deficit for the sector is a managed deficit--it's not something that has taken them by surprise. They are responding to what they see as the dip between where Diamond was reporting and where the money starts flowing. Similarly, I think we're comfortable that there is a managed approach to the scenarios that they're testing within institutions. So, they will do what they need to do to sustain themselves. The bigger issue really, in a public policy context, is the potential damage for the sector to be able to deliver for Wales in terms of research and skills development and all the other contributions.
Darren Millar AM: So, you're confident that they're taking a robust approach to planning for various scenarios, going forward, are you, as individual HEIs?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and as the deal becomes more clear politically, then they will obviously have greater clarity in terms of which of these scenarios they need to work up more fully, but they are sighted on it.
Darren Millar AM: Okay. Can I just ask about fee and access plans, and how Brexit might impact them? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted?
Dr David Blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there. Fee and access plans are approved annually by us. They are approved in advance of the recruitment cycle for the year that they apply to. So, we're just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 2019-20 academic year. So, there's quite a long lead time. We, as part of that process, go through similar--we look at their financial sustainability, which is based on their forecasts--data to the stuff we've just been discussing. And also, of course, the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types, from different domains, are going to be recruited. So, clearly, if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment, then that will reduce the amount of fee income that's going to come in, unless they can find other students, and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans. In terms of process, we have two things that we can do. If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they've submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality, then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan. So, we have a change process. If it's not fundamentally different, but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later--. We also monitor after the event and, if there are differences, we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences. If they've had fewer students and less investment, we would need to understand that. Conversely, if they'd had more students, and potentially more investment, we'd want to know what they'd spent it on, and if they've done different things, we'd want to understand that as well. So, we do challenge through a monitoring process. The only other thing that's perhaps worth saying is that, in the 2019-20 fee and access plans--they're not published yet, so I can't give you the full detail--five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact, and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues, so they're in there as well.
Darren Millar AM: But we've already said, haven't we, that it may be nothing to do with Brexit, this dip in EU recruitment, because there are other factors like the attractiveness of the estates and the environment that young people might be educated in? But they're making assumptions that it's linked to Brexit, are they?
Dr David Blaney: Not really. I think they're making assumptions that it could be. There are things they want to do to enhance and to protect student mobility, and some of that will be funded through fee plan investment. So, the Brexit conversation between the EU and the UK Government might or might not sustain Erasmus engagement, and if it doesn't, then they need to find other ways of trying to support that sort of thing. So, that's what we're beginning to see in the fee plans. It's them thinking about how else we can do this stuff.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Darren? Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: You mentioned the fee and access report. What else do you do to assure yourselves that Welsh higher education institutions are effectively planning for Brexit?
Bethan Owen: We've touched on contingency plans, but, in an environment of uncertainty, I think it's difficult for any of us to know what the right scenario is. I think rather than looking at worst-case scenarios, what the sector is also focusing on is the promotion and looking for additional or increased sources of funding. So, we touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales, so more focus on marketing Wales overseas, but also within the UK. The other area where the sector is working at a UK level very hard is making the arguments to UK Government for maintaining access to the successor to Horizon 2020, which is arguably a larger part of the whole funding infrastructure--students is one part, but the whole funding infrastructure for maintaining research capacity. So, working with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level for maintaining access to those sources of funding is also a part of what the institutions are doing. We mentioned the Welsh Government's HE Brexit group. That group, which is the Welsh Government group, is being advised by members on it, and that's informing Welsh Government officials when they engage with UK Government as well.
Mark Reckless AM: Do universities seek your advice on what the risks and, indeed, opportunities of Brexit may be and what you think they should be doing to plan for them, or is your role more one of monitoring what they do as opposed to advising what they should do?
Bethan Owen: They are autonomous institutions and ultimately their governing bodies are responsible for ensuring their sustainability. It's not a relationship where we would advise and direct, but it is a relationship where we would question the scenarios if we consider from our experience that we would have expected other scenarios to have been tested. It's that nature of conversation, rather than directing.
Mark Reckless AM: I understand you don't direct, of course, but my question was about advising. You're overseeing, or monitoring--or whatever you like to describe the role as--quite a number of institutions, and presumably you therefore have particular expertise within your organisation, and I just wondered whether higher education institutions are doing enough to draw on that.
Bethan Owen: I think we can advise--we can advise based on data and information that we can see. We can advise based on our judgment. The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario is the uncertainty and the extent to which our speculation is better informed than the governing bodies or the sector collectively is probably the issue.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's right. So, there's a relationship with the sector and there's a relationship with individual institutions, and they are different. So, we have engagement collectively with the sector. Bethan meets with the finance directors, and I meet with the vice-chancellors. We actually have the sector and the funding council together on the Welsh Government's group. So, some of these conversations are happening in various ways, where we're all gaining intelligence about what might be a sensible set of planning assumptions. Then, if we see an institution that is manifestly giving signs of not being sighted on some of these risks, either through their forecast or through other assurance activity, we will challenge. We have an annual cycle, with two points in the year where we reassess the overall risks of individual institutions, and that's based on a whole range of hard data but also a range of soft data. Our links into institutions are many and varied. We have lots of conversations and we take all of that in the round and form an assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions but also the extent to which we think their governance and management arrangements are properly sighted and facing properly the challenges that they face. In some ways, we say it's not about the challenges they face; it's about how they face the challenges. Our alarm bells really ring when we get the sense that, actually, either an executive or a governing body hasn't really noticed. We're not in that place, I'm really pleased to say. I'm not worried about short-term crisis with any of the institutions. There are medium-term real challenges, both because of Brexit and because of other contextual factors, but at the moment the sector is a managed sector, which is good. It's not always like that, but we're in, I think, a good place at the moment. So, our role is definitely to challenge where we don't think they are making sensible assessments, but it's not to say that their assessment is wrong and ours is right; it's just to have a conversation about,'Why have you done this and what has informed your thinking?'It's slightly more one step back and slightly more subtle, but it is, as you imply, us using the intelligence we gain from all of those conversations when we talk to individual institutions as well.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. We had evidence last week from some of the higher education institutions, including Cardiff University, and it's very interesting, in relation to Erasmus+ and the mobility funding for students that, I think, only 40 per cent of the mobility funding in Cardiff is paid for by Erasmus+. I note that you've been consulting on national measures for higher education performance and that one possibility is using international mobility as a performance indicator. I was just wondering whether you might go further and expect universities to actually make commitments to funding international mobility from their own fee incomes as part of that.
Bethan Owen: Again, reflecting on the latest fee and access plans, seven of the universities are referring to mobility--either they have targets in them or are explaining what their plans are--so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income. However, Erasmus is such a well-established and long-term plan--if we were looking at a scenario where that infrastructure wasn't available, to implement anything similar to that would be much less efficient and much more costly. And to enable an infrastructure that allowed--. Ideally, you'd want something that all Welsh institutions could take part in, and that takes some investment and some co-ordinating. And, equally, you need to have the arrangements with your overseas and European institutions. I think it's easy to underestimate the accumulation of time that has gone into establishing Erasmus. So, I think replacing it would be a challenge.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And the point was made clearly last week that the brand is internationally recognised. When you enter into Erasmus+, you know exactly what you're going to get, and all of that. But there have been criticisms as well about degrees of flexibility and this, that and the other, so I'm just wondering whether--and there is presumably going to be some change on that front although I'm hoping we can buy into it, as others have done who aren't in the EU--that emphasis on encouraging institutions to look more proactively at funding their own mobility efforts would be positive.
Dr David Blaney: I think the--
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Sorry--especially if it means that they do more of it.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. I think the Welsh sector is definitely committed to trying to find ways of promoting and resourcing that sort of mobility. There are signs that some of the restrictive elements of the Erasmus programme are going to change anyway, because that's under development and that's positive. There have been positive noises as part of the Brexit negotiations about wanting to carry on being able to access the Erasmus programme. Nothing is agreed until it's all agreed apparently, so we'll have to see on that one. That would be far better, I think, as Bethan indicates, than trying to replace it with a made-in-Wales only, but you could have a made-in-Wales on top. All of these challenges also create opportunities because they stimulate thinking, and so the fact that seven of the eight universities are already now using their fee plans as a vehicle for thinking about this is positive, and I think we can take that on from there.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because that 40/60 split struck me as being the opposite to what I perceived the situation to be. A key part of your role is to work in partnership with students, so I'd just like to ask what work have you done with students, in terms of maybe protecting their interests as the Brexit scenario evolves?
Dr David Blaney: Well, as you say, we do work with students. We were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales. We work very closely with them and the president of NUS is an observer on our council. So, we have close links with NUS Wales and we're very proud of that, and it's very productive. They don't have a vote, but they do have a voice and it really matters. We we're, again, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. The UK-wide quality code also has elements in it where arrangements have to be specified about the protection of student interests. That is particularly, in essence, around circumstances where a provider gets into difficulties and they might wish to close a course or something more drastic and then what arrangements are in place to make sure that those students who are in train are protected. So, that is there and we've worked hard with the sector and with NUS Wales to get those measures in place. There's more development work in train at the moment, so we've asked Universities Wales to construct a protection that takes account of the approach to protecting the student interests in higher education. We're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important. The students who are HE students in FE are absolutely not second-best, and they should have the same protections.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is all this a general piece of work? It's not Brexit-specific, although, no doubt, it may--.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's fair to say, yes. The other dimension around Brexit is the immigration status of EU students, and that's, kind of, beyond our pay scale--that's a UK Government issue.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is that something that you have a view on?
Dr David Blaney: It's clearly in the interest of the enrichment of the curriculum and the student experience for students in Welsh institutions to be able to have students from other EU countries in the mix. So, it would be nice to find ways of continuing to facilitate that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Now, of course, you have a statutory duty as well to assess the academic quality of the work in our higher education institutions, and I'm just wondering what potential impacts you think that Brexit might have on that particular aspect.
Dr David Blaney: I think there are possibly a couple of things to say, and one, in a sense, echoes what I was just saying in the final part of my previous response, which is that part of the quality of the student experience is the richness that you get from having students in your cohort who have different backgrounds and different perspectives. So, if there is a continuing reduction in the number of EU students coming into Welsh institutions, then that richness deteriorates. That doesn't mean to say that the base or the threshold standard of what's required for a degree will come under pressure, it's just about the richness on top of that, which will be, in a sense, a quality-enhancement issue. That would be something that we would wish to try to protect against, but in the end you can't force EU students to come--you have to try and look attractive, and we've touched on that. The baseline requirement assessment of quality will not be affected by Brexit, except in so far as the machinery we use to discharge our statutory responsibility, which is through the Quality Assurance Agency, which themselves are accredited with European Association for Quality Assurance in Higher Education, the European machinery for higher education quality. And there's a set of standards around that, and we would obviously wish not to be in a position where our ability to use and adhere to those standards is adversely impacted upon. Those standards will still exist, and it will be possible for the British system to adhere to them, even if they're not actually able to play in the same way. Then the only other thing I would say is that one of the factors that can cause the quality of the learning and teaching experience to be likely to become inadequate is when institutions come under financial pressure, just because their capacity to maintain the same sort of student experience can get under pressure. So, clearly, we will be looking for and making sure that institutions manage the financial pressures, if there are any--and there are some at the moment, as we've described--and manage those carefully. And in all of that, we will expect institutions to do their duty to make sure that the commitments they've already made to students are carried through. So, where students have already started on the course, they need to be able to finish that course--you can't just pull the plug out. So, all of that comes into the arrangements for quality as well. So, we'll be keeping an eye on that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. A lot of what you've told us in the last three quarters of an hour or so will have costs attached, depending on the impacts. Certainly, we're in choppy waters as a sector anyway, and the risk is that things will be even more choppy, if you'll excuse that level of political interpretation, over the years to come. I'm just wondering what advice you might have given the Welsh Government in terms of what level of transition funding, or Brexit transition funding, might be required by the sector, and if you have, what the Welsh Government might have told you.
Bethan Owen: I mentioned earlier that, obviously, we've provided information in terms of the assumptions that the sector are making on income. So, for the year 2017-18, that was PS129 million. I think the extent to which that needs to be replaced or supported with transition funding depends absolutely on what the final arrangements for Brexit are, but it's an appropriate point to refer to the report that Professor Graeme Reid has produced, commissioned by Welsh Government. That was, and has, provided advice and recommendations for supporting research and innovation in the transition period. But, again, the Reid recommendations in that report build on the Diamond recommendations, and as soon as Diamond is in place--and Reid is providing recommendations in addition, to establish funding on the basis that the funding needs to be available in Wales to maintain and develop and strengthen the research and innovation infrastructure that we have.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you not worried, though, that the clock is ticking and that we really don't know what the situation is at this point?
Dr David Blaney: Do you mean the Brexit situation?
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The Brexit clock, yes.
Dr David Blaney: Uncertainty is unhelpful, because as I've said several times, the sector is a managed sector at the moment. I don't think there's--. We're not seeing maverick stuff, but actually you can only manage, really, what you can see and what you can reasonably predict. So, the longer the uncertainty persists, the more difficult that is for institutional management and, indeed, for the rest of the machinery to support them. So, yes, the sooner we get clarity, the better for everybody, I imagine.
Darren Millar AM: Chair, can I just ask a question?
John Griffiths AM: Yes, Darren.
Darren Millar AM: In terms of uncertainty, though, we've still got this uncertainty over whether the extra cash that the Government's going to have to spend as a result of Diamond being implemented is coming to the HE sector. They've given a political commitment, but you've got absolutely no other assurance of the sums of money that are coming in. We've got the reform of tertiary education arrangements in Wales, which are also under way, so it's a bit of a perfect storm for you, isn't it, really, with all of these three things happening at the same time?
Dr David Blaney: We're certainly kept busy.
Darren Millar AM: But two of those things are in the gift of the Welsh Government to sort out for you, aren't they?
Dr David Blaney: Well, the policy on the reform of the post-compulsory sector absolutely is a Welsh Government policy. The extent to which they can pre-empt a budgetary process and give us clear sight of the amount of money in future years is--. Well, again, it's not for me to comment. My understanding is that that's difficult for them to do, and I would repeat what I said earlier: officials have been as helpful as I think they can be in respect of that. I mean, you're right, we've only got a political commitment between two people currently in post. It would be great to have that firmer. I'm not sure how that could be done.
Darren Millar AM: I mean, that statement about the savings accrued from Diamond being reinvested wholly into the HE sector has not been repeated, frankly, has it, since the coalition deal was struck?
Dr David Blaney: No, but it hasn't been rescinded either, so--.
Darren Millar AM: No, but there have been opportunities--repeated opportunities--in the Chamber, where the Cabinet Secretary's been asked to repeat that commitment, and the First Minister's been asked to repeat that commitment and has not given that commitment. That must concern you, and must concern your university sector even more than, perhaps, some of the elements of Brexit that we're discussing.
Dr David Blaney: Bethan has outlined earlier on in this session the fact that institutions are currently running deficit budgets in order not to lose the infrastructure on the assumption that the Diamond money will come in. If anything were to cause significant perturbation, either to the timeline of that or to it coming in at all, then there would be much more of what Medwin Hughes calls'houskeeping'that would be required, and that would be significant. So, at the moment--I don't like the expression'valley of death', but there is a valley to cross, and I think the sector is reasonably confident about how wide and how deep that valley is. There's a demographic valley as well. So, there are several valleys that they're crossing--the metaphor fails, doesn't it, really, but I think you get the drift? So, there are a number of challenges and they can see their way out of some of those challenges, but if any one of these starts to get significantly disrupted, then that would be a real issue for them.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I go on to ask about other barriers to Welsh universities gaining more funding from UK research councils? What would you say those barriers are?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think there are a couple of things, really, to say. The first one--and we'll sound like a stuck record if we're not careful--is that there's an issue about investment and the Reid report makes this very clear. So, he has reaffirmed research that had been done previously that identifies that, actually, the quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them, and that, in the end, is a product of investment decisions. They have particularly looked at the deficit in science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas, and I always say that research is not just STEM. I mean, STEM is important, and I'm not denying the deficit in that area, but we have to also remember that the research agenda for Wales is not just STEM--it's arts, humanities, it's social sciences. If you look at the impact on public policy that could come from social science research--tremendous. And we're very good at it in Wales. The Welsh impact in its research is better than anywhere else in the UK, so that's good. So, they do very well, and we just really need to invest a little bit further--so continue to do very well, but put it on a broader front. If you want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, then the investment has two dimensions to it. One is just having enough researchers to be able to play into those increasingly larger projects rather than small-scale projects. If you haven't got the critical mass, it's very hard to make the case that you can play. And the second thing is that UK-wide research pots nearly always fund at about 80 per cent of the total cost of the research, and the other 20 per cent is meant to be found from the core research funding for the university, and if you're in a situation where your core research funding is not competitive, then you're not going to be competitive at getting that money. So, that's, kind of, straightforward. There are other things. I think it's fair to say that the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils, making sure they're in the various committees and so on. We are intending to do a bit of work to see if we can systematise that a bit better--that engagement--because there's no doubt about it: it's not to say that this system is in any way inappropriate, but the more you're in the conversations, the more likely you are to be better placed to respond to the research challenges that come up.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. One final question: in terms of the researcher collaborations and networks that exist, do you see potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of those, and are there any particular lessons to learn from Ser Cymru II?
Dr David Blaney: I think that there are two things to say here as well. First of all, the Brexit deal might or might not impact adversely on the capacity of Welsh and, indeed, UK research infrastructure to play into broader collaborative activity across Europe, and, in a sense, that's a function of the deal whatever the deal looks like, and we'll have to wait and see. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. It's not just the money, it's being in the club and it's the signalling that we're in the game. So, all of that would be important. And then the other part of my response to this would be that, actually, Wales will need to continue to be good at the research it does, so maintaining the quality, maintaining the impact, and hopefully growing the critical mass. The Ser Cymru initiative has been quite important in doing that, because it's been very focused, capturing key research players, and the attractiveness that that has then to other researchers around them, and to industry collaboration, and they have been areas of real strength that we've invested in. And I think they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Just one further point, from Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Just very briefly, one of the pieces of feedback that the committee members received at a stakeholder engagement event, which took place prior to this inquiry starting, to receive oral evidence, was about the research funding that is available from the charitable sector, and how poorly Wales does in attracting some of that research. I think we had some figures from the British Heart Foundation, which said they have PS100 million a year available for research grants, or something like that, and we're getting 1 per cent of that coming into Wales, which is obviously pretty low down. I appreciate that research into the type of activity that they want to put their money into, Wales may not be particularly good at, and there may be other opportunities with other charities and partnerships. What work are you doing in order to build the capacity that Wales has to attract more of that charitable sector research funding into Wales?
Bethan Owen: One of the issues is the capacity to engage with that funding, because of the overhead issue that David mentioned. Charitable funding at the moment doesn't attract any overhead funding. Again, that could be built in to our funding, if we had the capacity to increase our quality-related research funding. There is an element in England.
Darren Millar AM: But that pressure's the same in other parts of the UK, is it not? So the overhead funding is still an issue in England, and in other places.
Bethan Owen: There is an increased contribution, and I think it's an element that was increased this year to acknowledge that. But there will be differentiation between different charities. I'm fairly certain that some of our institutions will be very strong with the cancer charities, possibly not the heart foundation. And some of that will reflect on focusing on our strengths, but to have that fuller picture.
Darren Millar AM: So, this gearing issue that you mentioned earlier on, for every PS1 that somebody else puts on the table, they can draw in another PS4 on top, because that PS1 will cover the overheads, whereas the rest of the research cash--.
Dr David Blaney: That's exactly it. So, the more you're able to invest--. You know, we sometimes get into a conversation about the unhypothecated nature of our research funding, but actually that creates a flexibility and the infrastructure investment that allows institutions to be able to respond to these other opportunities. Without that, they can't do it, because if you're not careful, you've got institutions engaging in UK-wide or charity-based research activities where they're actually having to pay for it themselves--they're running at a loss.
Darren Millar AM: So that's the main problem; it's not that Welsh universities aren't doing their best to get this cash in. Or is it a bit of both?
Dr David Blaney: I think, in the main, universities and researchers will get their cash from wherever they can, so I don't think it's a lack of appetite.
Darren Millar AM: Okay.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, thank you, both, for coming in to give evidence to the committee this morning. You will be sent a draft of the transcript, to check for accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay then, the next item is item 3, papers to note, the first of which is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the school organisation code. The second is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Chair of the Finance Committee regarding scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for the forthcoming financial year, which we will be discussing under item 6 on the agenda. Paper to note 4 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on parental attitudes towards managing young children's behaviour. And the final paper to note, paper to note 5, is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the children and family delivery grant, which we will discuss later on in private session, if Members are content. Okay. Are you content to note those papers on that basis? Okay. Thanks very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, and also for items 1 and 2 of the 20 September meeting. Is the committee content? Yes. Thank you very much. We will move then into private session. | The biggest is that there's an issue about investment. The quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them. If they want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, the investment has two dimensions. One is having enough researchers playing in larger projects rather than small-scale projects; and the second thing is that, compared to UK-wide research pots, Wales'core research funding is not competitive. Also, the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils. | qmsum |
What are the potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of researcher collaborations and networks?
Gareth Rogers: Good morning, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Unfortunately, the Chair is unable to attend today, so in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22 I call for nominations for a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting.
Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.
Gareth Rogers: Thank you.
Darren Millar AM: I'll second that nomination.
Gareth Rogers: As there's only one nomination, I declare that John Griffiths has been appointed as temporary Chair. Thank you, John.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you all very much, and item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've received apologies from Hefin David and Lynne Neagle. There are no substitutions. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2, and our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education, and our first evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales here today, and Dr David Blaney as chief executive, and Bethan Owen, director of institutional engagement. Welcome to you both. Thanks for coming along to give evidence today. If it's okay with you, we'll move straight to questions, and Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Good morning. Bore da. I wondered if we could start off with you telling us what evidence you can see that the Brexit process has had any impact on Welsh higher education so far.
Dr David Blaney: Can I preface the response by just reminding you that we are, by contract and by role, apolitical, and a lot of the judgments about the impact of Brexit essentially reflect where people sit politically in terms of whether they think it's a good thing or a bad thing? We're not going to go there, obviously, today, so we'll stick to the facts as we can see them, and hopefully we'll be able to help you, but there are areas where we are unable to help. That's part of the reason.
John Griffiths AM: We certainly do not expect you to enter the political fray in any way.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you. But even in terms of your assessment of whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing, a good impact or a bad impact, some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it, so we will be as careful as we can be on that. In terms of the impact of Brexit on higher education, clearly, the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales. So, we fund provision; we don't fund providers, technically, although obviously there's not much provision without providers. So, we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers, but fundamentally the issue is: what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales, and what impact might Brexit have on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales? So, we know that universities make annually about PS5 billion of impact; 50,000 jobs. Of course, in Wales, all of that economic impact is really very significant, and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment. That has an impact in a number of ways. We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU, so EU students, structural funds, and EU research funding, and so on, from the EU. We can identify some of that, but, actually, what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about. We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I'll ask Bethan to share some details on that in a moment. We're also beginning to pick up, only anecdotally, some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector, and the Welsh sector as part of that, in playing in some of the EU collaborative research activities. And that, I think, just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period. We don't have data on that--that's anecdotal--but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult. In terms of the financial impact of that, clearly, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of the money--we're almost immediately straight into politics if you're not careful--but some of the money will be available back to the UK, and the extent to which Wales benefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Government. It's not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in that relationship, but that will become a matter of politics. There's a broader dimension, which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that. I think it's very hard for us to be definitive about how that's going to play out. I think that depends on the deal and how it all unfolds over the next several years. But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how that plays for institutions remains to be seen. We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it. So, in terms of recruitment, Bethan.
Bethan Owen: This is based on the UCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June, 30 June. The European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent, which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for English institutions, and non-EU--so international students, not from Europe--have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions, again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England. So, those are the signs of changes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment?
Bethan Owen: The funding position would be the main pressure. The recommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented, and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effect from this September. However, the recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. That funding, when it returns to institutions, is intended to re-establish funding for higher cost provision, both full time and part time; reinstate funding for innovation; and maintain, at the very least, the research funding in real terms. Universities, in the meantime, are trying to minimise the cost reductions that they're making in order to maintain the infrastructure, so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it. We have announced our funding allocations for 2018-19. For the research and teaching grant, though, we are still funding at a lower level--PS12. 5 million less--then the starting point for the Diamond report, the 2015-16 starting report. But we expect to be able to start introducing funding from 2019-20 to make a start on implementing Diamond. And it's probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit, therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition to those that the Diamond report was addressing. The other pressures relate to student recruitment. I mentioned the EU and international students. There is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled and English-domiciled applications to Wales. Enrolments are obviously the key important number, which we'll see later. And the other pressures include pay and pension costs, not least the issues around the universities superannuation scheme pension fund, where there's potentially a significant increase in cost. Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure and borrowing, which bring their own pressures. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding--the Augar review.
John Griffiths AM: In terms of European Union students and enrolment, is Wales forecast to do less well than England and, if so, why might that be?
Bethan Owen: They are not forecasting it. It's very difficult until the enrolments are made, and it's also very hard to see--the data that we see is the UCAS data. Institutions also recruit directly, so until we see the actual recruitment--. I think the arrangements that have changed from 2018-19 also impact on EU students. So, now, they have to find the full fee, whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students. So, I'm speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students'appetite to come.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. First of all Llyr, then Mark.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, that's straight into what I was going to ask, really, about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 per cent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales, where we see a 2 per cent increase in England. Is that it, or are there other things that you've taken into account? What's your assessment of the reasons behind this?
Dr David Blaney: It's very difficult to be definitive about the reasons, but I think there are probably two. The one that Bethan has already indicated, which is the change in student support arrangements for EU students, will have an effect of perturbation. That's probably relatively temporary--let's hope it is--as that settles down because, actually, the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming into England. Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower, but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. So, getting the messages out is a challenge. The other dimension is that when you're in a highly competitive recruitment market, you have to do what you can to look attractive. Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities, and particularly buildings and kit, and the relative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that. Certainly, anecdotally I know, from my own family, that a lot of the choices have been made in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on. There's something rational about that, isn't there? If you've got a system that is relatively better invested, then you're likely to have a better student experience because the resources are likely to be better. So, that's not irrational. We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the PS9,000 fee maximum limit came in, and some institutions, mostly in England--there was one in Wales--chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low, relative to that PS9,000, and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind. So, the price sensitivities work quite differently. So, again, if you've got a relatively better invested part of the system, then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That latter factor would affect the whole of the cohort, not just the international recruitment, of course.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. Yes, indeed. The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that's re-balancing where the policy of investment goes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. And Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: If I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the applications from non-EU students were also down by 8 per cent or 9 per cent. So, forgive me a certain scepticism about the explanation of the fall in the EU students being that they did get the fee grant and now they do not. If that's the explanation, why are we seeing the same fall in non-EU applications?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think the Welsh domiciled are also now having to face the prospect of finding a loan for the whole of the fee. So, that would potentially account for that. There's also a demographic dimension here with the downturn in the 18-year-old school-leaver profile, and that actually is happening in Wales at a slightly later point than in England.
Mark Reckless AM: But this is non-EU students, and I think you said, Bethan, an 8 per cent or 9 per cent fall in them as well.
Dr David Blaney: International non-EU. I beg your pardon. I misunderstood.
Bethan Owen: There's also a mix effect. I gave a number that was for all English institutions that there will be differential impacts on.
Mark Reckless AM: All English or all Welsh?
Bethan Owen: Well, I contrasted the Welsh position with the English position where they were seeing growth. If you look, then--and we don't have the detailed information, but, again, what UCAS publish is some analysis by tariff. They analyse by type of institution--in other words, the grades that you need to get into institutions--and there is a trend for growth being in the higher tariff institutions. So, there's a mix effect in there as well, and I think there's undoubtedly an element of perception of how welcome overseas and international students are, and that's something that we know the sector are working on with Government.
Mark Reckless AM: Why would that affect Wales more than England? Do you think there's been perhaps too great a negativity about Brexit in the sector?
Bethan Owen: I think it's the mix of institutions that we have. So, we only have sector information published at the moment. When we look at the mix of institutions that we have, we will probably see a differential impact between Cardiff University and others.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? Sorry, David, did you want to add anything?
Dr David Blaney: I was just going to say that we would expect to see quite differential performance in the English sector, so the overall numbers are being brought up by substantial increased performance with some of that sector, and it's a question of how many of that type of institution you have in Wales.
Mark Reckless AM: So, performance is increasing amongst the English universities, but not amongst the Welsh, you think.
Dr David Blaney: I think performance is increasing, but increasing substantially with some of the English sector, not all of it. So, you get an average for the sector that is increased performance, but actually the stronger players within that sector, with the stronger international profiles, are bringing that up, and we have fewer in Wales that have that sort of presence.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Would it be fair to say, then, that the universities over the border in England are better at selling themselves internationally than our Welsh institutions? Or is it just this fact that we've got fewer very high tariff universities versus the English market?
Dr David Blaney: I suspect, and this is speculation--I suspect that it's a bit of both. I think some of it is to do with the mix of different types of institution. I would then come back to the point I was making about the Anglocentric nature of the UK media. If you're looking overseas, I think Wales has to work harder to penetrate the consciousness.
Darren Millar AM: But, forgive me, don't international students just look at the UK as a whole? How are we comparing to Scotland, for example, or Northern Ireland, in terms of their universities? Do you have a comparative figure for Scottish universities?
Bethan Owen: I haven't got that one with me for now, but there will be one in the data.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, we could get that.
Bethan Owen: Again, it's a combination of being part of the UK but differentiating, and the ability to differentiate the strengths of Wales, so attracting those students to Wales specifically, on top of the UK draw.
Dr David Blaney: So, in terms of the efforts that have been made, there's a programme now that is being run by the sector in Wales--it's'Study in Wales'. It's relatively recent; you could argue that we could have got there earlier. But that is a determined collective effort to present Wales as a good place to study, with particular messages about what distinguishes studying in Wales from studying more broadly in the UK. In a sense, that is responding to the need to increase the presence of Wales in an international market. So, that sort of initiative I think is very good, very welcome. It will take a while to actually have an impact, but I think that's exactly the sort of work the sector need to be doing more of.
Mark Reckless AM: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: One of them in particular is relative safety. We know that one of the considerations, particularly for parents of overseas students, is are they going to go to a safe environment, and we know that the perception of international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be. That's partly a function of the size of our larger cities--quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England. So, that's a key message. Being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well. So, we've got a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, but it's available in a way that is safer and more supportive, I think is the messaging that's coming through.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. We'd better move on, I think, hadn't we? Darren, then.
Darren Millar AM: I just wonder to what extent you have been able to plan in your financial forecasts for the next few years ahead for the potential impacts of Brexit. What have you built in, if anything?
Bethan Owen: In terms of our funding, we receive our funding annually, but the sector provides us with financial forecasts, and we use those for monitoring sustainability. So, the last full forecasts that we had were in July 2017. We are due to receive a full forecast at the end of this month, and we obviously have updated information from institutions.
Darren Millar AM: And they're three-year forecasts that come through to you, aren't they?
Bethan Owen: They are four plus the current year. So, we've got numbers to 2019-20 at the moment, and expect to go to 2020-21.
Darren Millar AM: And what are the universities expecting? What do they anticipate?
Bethan Owen: Well, for 2017-18, which is the year we're about to end now, they were expecting PS38 million income from European students, and approximately PS91 million from the various European programme funding sources, and that's about 8 per cent of the total income--PS1. 5 billion--of the sector. The forecasts are assuming that that continues, albeit that institutions have various scenarios that they have for all sorts of scenarios that we can all speculate on, and, as I mentioned earlier, the balancing act of maintaining infrastructure and resources and staff in the short term is where we are at the moment, or where the sector is at the moment. And there are also signs that the banks and lending institutions are becoming a bit more risk-averse in providing borrowing to institutions, and of more differentiation between individual institutions being made than has possibly been the case in the past. The sector made an operating deficit, again looking at all Welsh institutions collectively last year, 2016-17, of PS17 million. That's before other gains and losses. And we're expecting a similar collective level of deficit for this financial year, if not slightly higher. Now, these are managed deficits and we are not currently seeing critical short-term cash availability issues in the sector. However, the increase in funding from Diamond is a key part of enabling the sector to return to longer-term financial sustainability. Short-term challenges can be met if there's a reasonable prospect of future funding. You can manage in the short-term, but there comes a point when the big cost reductions and infrastructure reductions have to be made. And, again, having mentioned the pressures on pay, pensions and other challenges, it is difficult to gauge whether, if those factors come into play as well, some of these cost reductions may have to be made before funding comes in to replace--either Diamond funding or the European replacement funding.
Darren Millar AM: So, would it be fair to say that, in terms of the funding arrangements, and, in terms of the student numbers, one reason why we've got this recruitment problem is this lack of investment in the capital infrastructure that we've seen in recent years because of the financing arrangements from the Welsh Government, and the fee regime that we had previously, and the student finance regime that we had previously, not getting more cash into our Welsh universities perhaps, and that, over the next few years, there's going to have to be much more significant investment in capital if we're to raise the game and be more competitive, yes?
Bethan Owen: Yes, that would be fair to say.
Darren Millar AM: So, to what extent are they planning for more capital investment in those financial strategies that they've been preparing and presenting to you?
Bethan Owen: They are all planning for capital investment. They are in different positions in terms of capacity to borrow and the assumptions. This year, 2018-19, is the first time that we've had capital funding in our remit letter--so, we've got PS10 million of capital funding, which is very welcome, with a prospect of a further PS20 million. So, that we will be allocating shortly. That will make a difference, particularly to those institutions who are not finding it as easy to borrow from financial institutions. Some of our larger institutions have borrowed--Cardiff University issued a bond. However, there are internal governance processes that are putting tight restrictions and expectations of what that money will be invested in. But they all have plans to do it and they need the confidence that their forecasts and long-term future funding prospects are secure enough that they can get the confidence of borrowers then, and service the costs of those borrowers.
Darren Millar AM: So, the Diamond dividend you've mentioned a few times. What clarity is there from the Welsh Government at the moment in terms of how much they anticipate the Diamond dividend will be, and what proportion of that is going to be released to HEIs in the future?
Bethan Owen: I was very carefully not describing it as a dividend--a re-establishing of funding that we had in the past for higher cost and innovation and maintaining research funding. The timescales are difficult, because we have an annual remit letter, and we can work with Welsh Government officials, and they can only give us a sense of when they think the funding will be released. But 2018-19 is the start of the system, and because of cohort protection--so, protecting those students who came in on a different deal to the deal from 2018-19--in the early years there is an element of double cost; there's a cost of seeing out the old system and the different cost of implementing the new system. So, at the moment, we're certainly not in a position to tell the sector with any degree of certainty what funding would be beyond what we've allocated for 2018-19, with some sense of what 2019-20 numbers we're working with because we allocate our money over an academic year--so, by definition, we've already made assumptions of four months of the 2019-20 funding, albeit that's not approved yet in the budgetary process.
Darren Millar AM: But you're not being given a steer at all as to what you expect the additional resource that you might have to make available to Welsh universities might be as a result of Diamond. You must have some idea.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that officials have been as helpful as they can be with us, in terms of the planning assumptions we make and indications about whether or not we are being too ambitious or not ambitious enough. So, I think they're being very helpful; as Bethan said, they're constrained by the process--they can't pre-empt a budget process. And you folks will be fully aware of that, of course. The other question I think you asked was how much of the money released by the new arrangements will come into higher education. At the moment, we are expecting all of it to come into higher education, as the product of the arrangement between the current Cabinet Secretary and the current First Minister. The extent to which any changes there cause that to come under threat is something I can't judge at the moment. But we have had in our remit letter from the Cabinet Secretary a clear indication that we can expect our resource to grow over the next few years, as the Diamond process unfolds.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. I'm just going to bring in Llyr at this stage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bethan said in an earlier answer that, I think, the financial forecasting from universities forecast something pretty consistent in terms of what they're hoping to be receiving in income, for example. But we've already discussed the near 10 per cent drop, potentially, in international applications. So, does that tally, really, or are they going to be recruiting additional students from the UK market or--? What's the plan?
Bethan Owen: I was reflecting on the last point when we had consistent information across the sector.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, they may need to revisit that in the light of this.
Bethan Owen: I'm expecting that the forecast that we get at the end of this month will reflect the reduced applications we've seen, and an element of that will be reflected in reduced improvements as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, we don't really know, then, whether--it's unlikely that they are going to expect a consistent fee income, really.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say we would expect them to respond to what they're seeing in the UCAS process. Even if they didn't, they would all, in any case, have sensitivities for what they would do if things don't come out in the way they hope. And if they didn't have that then we would be on their case, of course, because we want them to be properly sighted.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Thanks.
John Griffiths AM: And we have to stick to the Brexit impact. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask, in terms of the impact of Brexit, have you done any assessment of what you think might happen, or have any of the institutions made available to you any assessments of what they think is likely to happen to their individual institutions, going forward? You've mentioned scenarios earlier on, David, so what scenarios have you set out?
Dr David Blaney: There's a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group, which is chaired by one of the Government directors, and we sit on that. And we have provided that group with early summaries of the risks and the potential impact, in terms of the exposure of the sector to EU-sourced funding. We have, as part of that working group, explored those issues that it would be really very helpful for either the Welsh Government to try to put in place or for the Welsh Government to persuade UK Government to do. And I think, in our submission, we identified a number of areas of what we would consider to be a helpful action, and that has been worked through that working group. We know that it has informed Welsh Government's position, in terms of what it does and also in terms of the conversations that they have with Her Majesty's Government. Beyond that, what we haven't done in that working group is share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios. We are not able to do that here either because, inevitably, they would have varying degrees of unpalatability and they would have to be managed very, very carefully. You take cost out, which is essentially the response, you actually take people's jobs out, and all of that has to be managed carefully. So, that's not really a matter for public consideration, but we do know that the institutions are looking at a range of scenarios on what they would do. Bethan mentioned earlier on that the current deficit for the sector is a managed deficit--it's not something that has taken them by surprise. They are responding to what they see as the dip between where Diamond was reporting and where the money starts flowing. Similarly, I think we're comfortable that there is a managed approach to the scenarios that they're testing within institutions. So, they will do what they need to do to sustain themselves. The bigger issue really, in a public policy context, is the potential damage for the sector to be able to deliver for Wales in terms of research and skills development and all the other contributions.
Darren Millar AM: So, you're confident that they're taking a robust approach to planning for various scenarios, going forward, are you, as individual HEIs?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and as the deal becomes more clear politically, then they will obviously have greater clarity in terms of which of these scenarios they need to work up more fully, but they are sighted on it.
Darren Millar AM: Okay. Can I just ask about fee and access plans, and how Brexit might impact them? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted?
Dr David Blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there. Fee and access plans are approved annually by us. They are approved in advance of the recruitment cycle for the year that they apply to. So, we're just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 2019-20 academic year. So, there's quite a long lead time. We, as part of that process, go through similar--we look at their financial sustainability, which is based on their forecasts--data to the stuff we've just been discussing. And also, of course, the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types, from different domains, are going to be recruited. So, clearly, if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment, then that will reduce the amount of fee income that's going to come in, unless they can find other students, and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans. In terms of process, we have two things that we can do. If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they've submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality, then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan. So, we have a change process. If it's not fundamentally different, but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later--. We also monitor after the event and, if there are differences, we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences. If they've had fewer students and less investment, we would need to understand that. Conversely, if they'd had more students, and potentially more investment, we'd want to know what they'd spent it on, and if they've done different things, we'd want to understand that as well. So, we do challenge through a monitoring process. The only other thing that's perhaps worth saying is that, in the 2019-20 fee and access plans--they're not published yet, so I can't give you the full detail--five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact, and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues, so they're in there as well.
Darren Millar AM: But we've already said, haven't we, that it may be nothing to do with Brexit, this dip in EU recruitment, because there are other factors like the attractiveness of the estates and the environment that young people might be educated in? But they're making assumptions that it's linked to Brexit, are they?
Dr David Blaney: Not really. I think they're making assumptions that it could be. There are things they want to do to enhance and to protect student mobility, and some of that will be funded through fee plan investment. So, the Brexit conversation between the EU and the UK Government might or might not sustain Erasmus engagement, and if it doesn't, then they need to find other ways of trying to support that sort of thing. So, that's what we're beginning to see in the fee plans. It's them thinking about how else we can do this stuff.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Darren? Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: You mentioned the fee and access report. What else do you do to assure yourselves that Welsh higher education institutions are effectively planning for Brexit?
Bethan Owen: We've touched on contingency plans, but, in an environment of uncertainty, I think it's difficult for any of us to know what the right scenario is. I think rather than looking at worst-case scenarios, what the sector is also focusing on is the promotion and looking for additional or increased sources of funding. So, we touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales, so more focus on marketing Wales overseas, but also within the UK. The other area where the sector is working at a UK level very hard is making the arguments to UK Government for maintaining access to the successor to Horizon 2020, which is arguably a larger part of the whole funding infrastructure--students is one part, but the whole funding infrastructure for maintaining research capacity. So, working with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level for maintaining access to those sources of funding is also a part of what the institutions are doing. We mentioned the Welsh Government's HE Brexit group. That group, which is the Welsh Government group, is being advised by members on it, and that's informing Welsh Government officials when they engage with UK Government as well.
Mark Reckless AM: Do universities seek your advice on what the risks and, indeed, opportunities of Brexit may be and what you think they should be doing to plan for them, or is your role more one of monitoring what they do as opposed to advising what they should do?
Bethan Owen: They are autonomous institutions and ultimately their governing bodies are responsible for ensuring their sustainability. It's not a relationship where we would advise and direct, but it is a relationship where we would question the scenarios if we consider from our experience that we would have expected other scenarios to have been tested. It's that nature of conversation, rather than directing.
Mark Reckless AM: I understand you don't direct, of course, but my question was about advising. You're overseeing, or monitoring--or whatever you like to describe the role as--quite a number of institutions, and presumably you therefore have particular expertise within your organisation, and I just wondered whether higher education institutions are doing enough to draw on that.
Bethan Owen: I think we can advise--we can advise based on data and information that we can see. We can advise based on our judgment. The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario is the uncertainty and the extent to which our speculation is better informed than the governing bodies or the sector collectively is probably the issue.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's right. So, there's a relationship with the sector and there's a relationship with individual institutions, and they are different. So, we have engagement collectively with the sector. Bethan meets with the finance directors, and I meet with the vice-chancellors. We actually have the sector and the funding council together on the Welsh Government's group. So, some of these conversations are happening in various ways, where we're all gaining intelligence about what might be a sensible set of planning assumptions. Then, if we see an institution that is manifestly giving signs of not being sighted on some of these risks, either through their forecast or through other assurance activity, we will challenge. We have an annual cycle, with two points in the year where we reassess the overall risks of individual institutions, and that's based on a whole range of hard data but also a range of soft data. Our links into institutions are many and varied. We have lots of conversations and we take all of that in the round and form an assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions but also the extent to which we think their governance and management arrangements are properly sighted and facing properly the challenges that they face. In some ways, we say it's not about the challenges they face; it's about how they face the challenges. Our alarm bells really ring when we get the sense that, actually, either an executive or a governing body hasn't really noticed. We're not in that place, I'm really pleased to say. I'm not worried about short-term crisis with any of the institutions. There are medium-term real challenges, both because of Brexit and because of other contextual factors, but at the moment the sector is a managed sector, which is good. It's not always like that, but we're in, I think, a good place at the moment. So, our role is definitely to challenge where we don't think they are making sensible assessments, but it's not to say that their assessment is wrong and ours is right; it's just to have a conversation about,'Why have you done this and what has informed your thinking?'It's slightly more one step back and slightly more subtle, but it is, as you imply, us using the intelligence we gain from all of those conversations when we talk to individual institutions as well.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. We had evidence last week from some of the higher education institutions, including Cardiff University, and it's very interesting, in relation to Erasmus+ and the mobility funding for students that, I think, only 40 per cent of the mobility funding in Cardiff is paid for by Erasmus+. I note that you've been consulting on national measures for higher education performance and that one possibility is using international mobility as a performance indicator. I was just wondering whether you might go further and expect universities to actually make commitments to funding international mobility from their own fee incomes as part of that.
Bethan Owen: Again, reflecting on the latest fee and access plans, seven of the universities are referring to mobility--either they have targets in them or are explaining what their plans are--so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income. However, Erasmus is such a well-established and long-term plan--if we were looking at a scenario where that infrastructure wasn't available, to implement anything similar to that would be much less efficient and much more costly. And to enable an infrastructure that allowed--. Ideally, you'd want something that all Welsh institutions could take part in, and that takes some investment and some co-ordinating. And, equally, you need to have the arrangements with your overseas and European institutions. I think it's easy to underestimate the accumulation of time that has gone into establishing Erasmus. So, I think replacing it would be a challenge.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And the point was made clearly last week that the brand is internationally recognised. When you enter into Erasmus+, you know exactly what you're going to get, and all of that. But there have been criticisms as well about degrees of flexibility and this, that and the other, so I'm just wondering whether--and there is presumably going to be some change on that front although I'm hoping we can buy into it, as others have done who aren't in the EU--that emphasis on encouraging institutions to look more proactively at funding their own mobility efforts would be positive.
Dr David Blaney: I think the--
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Sorry--especially if it means that they do more of it.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. I think the Welsh sector is definitely committed to trying to find ways of promoting and resourcing that sort of mobility. There are signs that some of the restrictive elements of the Erasmus programme are going to change anyway, because that's under development and that's positive. There have been positive noises as part of the Brexit negotiations about wanting to carry on being able to access the Erasmus programme. Nothing is agreed until it's all agreed apparently, so we'll have to see on that one. That would be far better, I think, as Bethan indicates, than trying to replace it with a made-in-Wales only, but you could have a made-in-Wales on top. All of these challenges also create opportunities because they stimulate thinking, and so the fact that seven of the eight universities are already now using their fee plans as a vehicle for thinking about this is positive, and I think we can take that on from there.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because that 40/60 split struck me as being the opposite to what I perceived the situation to be. A key part of your role is to work in partnership with students, so I'd just like to ask what work have you done with students, in terms of maybe protecting their interests as the Brexit scenario evolves?
Dr David Blaney: Well, as you say, we do work with students. We were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales. We work very closely with them and the president of NUS is an observer on our council. So, we have close links with NUS Wales and we're very proud of that, and it's very productive. They don't have a vote, but they do have a voice and it really matters. We we're, again, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. The UK-wide quality code also has elements in it where arrangements have to be specified about the protection of student interests. That is particularly, in essence, around circumstances where a provider gets into difficulties and they might wish to close a course or something more drastic and then what arrangements are in place to make sure that those students who are in train are protected. So, that is there and we've worked hard with the sector and with NUS Wales to get those measures in place. There's more development work in train at the moment, so we've asked Universities Wales to construct a protection that takes account of the approach to protecting the student interests in higher education. We're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important. The students who are HE students in FE are absolutely not second-best, and they should have the same protections.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is all this a general piece of work? It's not Brexit-specific, although, no doubt, it may--.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's fair to say, yes. The other dimension around Brexit is the immigration status of EU students, and that's, kind of, beyond our pay scale--that's a UK Government issue.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is that something that you have a view on?
Dr David Blaney: It's clearly in the interest of the enrichment of the curriculum and the student experience for students in Welsh institutions to be able to have students from other EU countries in the mix. So, it would be nice to find ways of continuing to facilitate that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Now, of course, you have a statutory duty as well to assess the academic quality of the work in our higher education institutions, and I'm just wondering what potential impacts you think that Brexit might have on that particular aspect.
Dr David Blaney: I think there are possibly a couple of things to say, and one, in a sense, echoes what I was just saying in the final part of my previous response, which is that part of the quality of the student experience is the richness that you get from having students in your cohort who have different backgrounds and different perspectives. So, if there is a continuing reduction in the number of EU students coming into Welsh institutions, then that richness deteriorates. That doesn't mean to say that the base or the threshold standard of what's required for a degree will come under pressure, it's just about the richness on top of that, which will be, in a sense, a quality-enhancement issue. That would be something that we would wish to try to protect against, but in the end you can't force EU students to come--you have to try and look attractive, and we've touched on that. The baseline requirement assessment of quality will not be affected by Brexit, except in so far as the machinery we use to discharge our statutory responsibility, which is through the Quality Assurance Agency, which themselves are accredited with European Association for Quality Assurance in Higher Education, the European machinery for higher education quality. And there's a set of standards around that, and we would obviously wish not to be in a position where our ability to use and adhere to those standards is adversely impacted upon. Those standards will still exist, and it will be possible for the British system to adhere to them, even if they're not actually able to play in the same way. Then the only other thing I would say is that one of the factors that can cause the quality of the learning and teaching experience to be likely to become inadequate is when institutions come under financial pressure, just because their capacity to maintain the same sort of student experience can get under pressure. So, clearly, we will be looking for and making sure that institutions manage the financial pressures, if there are any--and there are some at the moment, as we've described--and manage those carefully. And in all of that, we will expect institutions to do their duty to make sure that the commitments they've already made to students are carried through. So, where students have already started on the course, they need to be able to finish that course--you can't just pull the plug out. So, all of that comes into the arrangements for quality as well. So, we'll be keeping an eye on that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. A lot of what you've told us in the last three quarters of an hour or so will have costs attached, depending on the impacts. Certainly, we're in choppy waters as a sector anyway, and the risk is that things will be even more choppy, if you'll excuse that level of political interpretation, over the years to come. I'm just wondering what advice you might have given the Welsh Government in terms of what level of transition funding, or Brexit transition funding, might be required by the sector, and if you have, what the Welsh Government might have told you.
Bethan Owen: I mentioned earlier that, obviously, we've provided information in terms of the assumptions that the sector are making on income. So, for the year 2017-18, that was PS129 million. I think the extent to which that needs to be replaced or supported with transition funding depends absolutely on what the final arrangements for Brexit are, but it's an appropriate point to refer to the report that Professor Graeme Reid has produced, commissioned by Welsh Government. That was, and has, provided advice and recommendations for supporting research and innovation in the transition period. But, again, the Reid recommendations in that report build on the Diamond recommendations, and as soon as Diamond is in place--and Reid is providing recommendations in addition, to establish funding on the basis that the funding needs to be available in Wales to maintain and develop and strengthen the research and innovation infrastructure that we have.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you not worried, though, that the clock is ticking and that we really don't know what the situation is at this point?
Dr David Blaney: Do you mean the Brexit situation?
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The Brexit clock, yes.
Dr David Blaney: Uncertainty is unhelpful, because as I've said several times, the sector is a managed sector at the moment. I don't think there's--. We're not seeing maverick stuff, but actually you can only manage, really, what you can see and what you can reasonably predict. So, the longer the uncertainty persists, the more difficult that is for institutional management and, indeed, for the rest of the machinery to support them. So, yes, the sooner we get clarity, the better for everybody, I imagine.
Darren Millar AM: Chair, can I just ask a question?
John Griffiths AM: Yes, Darren.
Darren Millar AM: In terms of uncertainty, though, we've still got this uncertainty over whether the extra cash that the Government's going to have to spend as a result of Diamond being implemented is coming to the HE sector. They've given a political commitment, but you've got absolutely no other assurance of the sums of money that are coming in. We've got the reform of tertiary education arrangements in Wales, which are also under way, so it's a bit of a perfect storm for you, isn't it, really, with all of these three things happening at the same time?
Dr David Blaney: We're certainly kept busy.
Darren Millar AM: But two of those things are in the gift of the Welsh Government to sort out for you, aren't they?
Dr David Blaney: Well, the policy on the reform of the post-compulsory sector absolutely is a Welsh Government policy. The extent to which they can pre-empt a budgetary process and give us clear sight of the amount of money in future years is--. Well, again, it's not for me to comment. My understanding is that that's difficult for them to do, and I would repeat what I said earlier: officials have been as helpful as I think they can be in respect of that. I mean, you're right, we've only got a political commitment between two people currently in post. It would be great to have that firmer. I'm not sure how that could be done.
Darren Millar AM: I mean, that statement about the savings accrued from Diamond being reinvested wholly into the HE sector has not been repeated, frankly, has it, since the coalition deal was struck?
Dr David Blaney: No, but it hasn't been rescinded either, so--.
Darren Millar AM: No, but there have been opportunities--repeated opportunities--in the Chamber, where the Cabinet Secretary's been asked to repeat that commitment, and the First Minister's been asked to repeat that commitment and has not given that commitment. That must concern you, and must concern your university sector even more than, perhaps, some of the elements of Brexit that we're discussing.
Dr David Blaney: Bethan has outlined earlier on in this session the fact that institutions are currently running deficit budgets in order not to lose the infrastructure on the assumption that the Diamond money will come in. If anything were to cause significant perturbation, either to the timeline of that or to it coming in at all, then there would be much more of what Medwin Hughes calls'houskeeping'that would be required, and that would be significant. So, at the moment--I don't like the expression'valley of death', but there is a valley to cross, and I think the sector is reasonably confident about how wide and how deep that valley is. There's a demographic valley as well. So, there are several valleys that they're crossing--the metaphor fails, doesn't it, really, but I think you get the drift? So, there are a number of challenges and they can see their way out of some of those challenges, but if any one of these starts to get significantly disrupted, then that would be a real issue for them.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I go on to ask about other barriers to Welsh universities gaining more funding from UK research councils? What would you say those barriers are?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think there are a couple of things, really, to say. The first one--and we'll sound like a stuck record if we're not careful--is that there's an issue about investment and the Reid report makes this very clear. So, he has reaffirmed research that had been done previously that identifies that, actually, the quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them, and that, in the end, is a product of investment decisions. They have particularly looked at the deficit in science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas, and I always say that research is not just STEM. I mean, STEM is important, and I'm not denying the deficit in that area, but we have to also remember that the research agenda for Wales is not just STEM--it's arts, humanities, it's social sciences. If you look at the impact on public policy that could come from social science research--tremendous. And we're very good at it in Wales. The Welsh impact in its research is better than anywhere else in the UK, so that's good. So, they do very well, and we just really need to invest a little bit further--so continue to do very well, but put it on a broader front. If you want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, then the investment has two dimensions to it. One is just having enough researchers to be able to play into those increasingly larger projects rather than small-scale projects. If you haven't got the critical mass, it's very hard to make the case that you can play. And the second thing is that UK-wide research pots nearly always fund at about 80 per cent of the total cost of the research, and the other 20 per cent is meant to be found from the core research funding for the university, and if you're in a situation where your core research funding is not competitive, then you're not going to be competitive at getting that money. So, that's, kind of, straightforward. There are other things. I think it's fair to say that the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils, making sure they're in the various committees and so on. We are intending to do a bit of work to see if we can systematise that a bit better--that engagement--because there's no doubt about it: it's not to say that this system is in any way inappropriate, but the more you're in the conversations, the more likely you are to be better placed to respond to the research challenges that come up.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. One final question: in terms of the researcher collaborations and networks that exist, do you see potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of those, and are there any particular lessons to learn from Ser Cymru II?
Dr David Blaney: I think that there are two things to say here as well. First of all, the Brexit deal might or might not impact adversely on the capacity of Welsh and, indeed, UK research infrastructure to play into broader collaborative activity across Europe, and, in a sense, that's a function of the deal whatever the deal looks like, and we'll have to wait and see. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. It's not just the money, it's being in the club and it's the signalling that we're in the game. So, all of that would be important. And then the other part of my response to this would be that, actually, Wales will need to continue to be good at the research it does, so maintaining the quality, maintaining the impact, and hopefully growing the critical mass. The Ser Cymru initiative has been quite important in doing that, because it's been very focused, capturing key research players, and the attractiveness that that has then to other researchers around them, and to industry collaboration, and they have been areas of real strength that we've invested in. And I think they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Just one further point, from Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Just very briefly, one of the pieces of feedback that the committee members received at a stakeholder engagement event, which took place prior to this inquiry starting, to receive oral evidence, was about the research funding that is available from the charitable sector, and how poorly Wales does in attracting some of that research. I think we had some figures from the British Heart Foundation, which said they have PS100 million a year available for research grants, or something like that, and we're getting 1 per cent of that coming into Wales, which is obviously pretty low down. I appreciate that research into the type of activity that they want to put their money into, Wales may not be particularly good at, and there may be other opportunities with other charities and partnerships. What work are you doing in order to build the capacity that Wales has to attract more of that charitable sector research funding into Wales?
Bethan Owen: One of the issues is the capacity to engage with that funding, because of the overhead issue that David mentioned. Charitable funding at the moment doesn't attract any overhead funding. Again, that could be built in to our funding, if we had the capacity to increase our quality-related research funding. There is an element in England.
Darren Millar AM: But that pressure's the same in other parts of the UK, is it not? So the overhead funding is still an issue in England, and in other places.
Bethan Owen: There is an increased contribution, and I think it's an element that was increased this year to acknowledge that. But there will be differentiation between different charities. I'm fairly certain that some of our institutions will be very strong with the cancer charities, possibly not the heart foundation. And some of that will reflect on focusing on our strengths, but to have that fuller picture.
Darren Millar AM: So, this gearing issue that you mentioned earlier on, for every PS1 that somebody else puts on the table, they can draw in another PS4 on top, because that PS1 will cover the overheads, whereas the rest of the research cash--.
Dr David Blaney: That's exactly it. So, the more you're able to invest--. You know, we sometimes get into a conversation about the unhypothecated nature of our research funding, but actually that creates a flexibility and the infrastructure investment that allows institutions to be able to respond to these other opportunities. Without that, they can't do it, because if you're not careful, you've got institutions engaging in UK-wide or charity-based research activities where they're actually having to pay for it themselves--they're running at a loss.
Darren Millar AM: So that's the main problem; it's not that Welsh universities aren't doing their best to get this cash in. Or is it a bit of both?
Dr David Blaney: I think, in the main, universities and researchers will get their cash from wherever they can, so I don't think it's a lack of appetite.
Darren Millar AM: Okay.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, thank you, both, for coming in to give evidence to the committee this morning. You will be sent a draft of the transcript, to check for accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay then, the next item is item 3, papers to note, the first of which is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the school organisation code. The second is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Chair of the Finance Committee regarding scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for the forthcoming financial year, which we will be discussing under item 6 on the agenda. Paper to note 4 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on parental attitudes towards managing young children's behaviour. And the final paper to note, paper to note 5, is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the children and family delivery grant, which we will discuss later on in private session, if Members are content. Okay. Are you content to note those papers on that basis? Okay. Thanks very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, and also for items 1 and 2 of the 20 September meeting. Is the committee content? Yes. Thank you very much. We will move then into private session. | First of all, whether the Brexit deal might impact adversely on the capacity of the collaborations is still unknown. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. Wales should maintain the quality, maintain the impact, and hopefully grow the critical mass. Dr David Blaney thinks that they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market. | qmsum |
What did Industrial Designer propose to build a new remote control when discussing the Bluetooth technology and the functions of remote control?
Project Manager: Hello.
Marketing: Hey guys.
User Interface: Hi.
Industrial Designer: Hi.
Project Manager: Hi.
Industrial Designer: I see my bunny is still standing.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No one drawing it.
Project Manager: It's too beautiful.
User Interface: Yeah, true.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I figured uh that much. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Too wicked.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A minute please, my uh laptop is uh {disfmarker} oh, there it is, thank you. So welcome back. {vocalsound} At the functional design meeting um the plan is uh that uh each one of you, so not me but only you uh will uh present uh the the things you worked on uh the last uh half hour. I will uh take minutes and will put uh the minutes that I have uh at the end of the session in the shared folder. {vocalsound} Also the minutes of the previous session are also in the shared folder now, so you can read that uh now or afterwards. Um {vocalsound} uh I had an email from the from the management board
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh, I don't know if you a al also uh received it, but there were four points uh which uh I think are very important. First one is uh they think that uh teletext teletext becomes outdated uh and internet will be the the main uh focus. {vocalsound} Uh second one is also important uh, because it's one of the discussion points of the previous session. Uh the remote control shou should onl only be used for the television, so it uh not gonna it's not gonna be a multi-purpose remote control, so uh that's one thing to keep in mind.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh second, and I think that's important for the Marketing uh Expert, uh the current uh customers uh are in the age group group of uh forty years and older, but with this uh new remote uh they uh will uh {disfmarker} would like to reach uh a group uh younger than uh forty. Uh and uh I think to keep in mind, but not really uh for now is that they uh want the the the slogan and the and the logo uh to uh to be recognised more in the remote.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, we have uh forty minutes, so I think uh not more than ten minutes uh uh per presentation uh each, and please uh use uh all the the the facilities so that you have either SMARTboards, the the Word files, what you uh {disfmarker} whatever you want. So uh Tim, can you start? Yeah?
Marketing: Okay. {vocalsound}'Kay, welcome. I have some uh new findings on uh Marketing Expert level,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: which I will show you. {vocalsound} The method I used was um giving orders to our usability lab uh to do a questionnaire. Um {vocalsound} one hundred respondents were involved and my marketing uh department generated a report with a lot of results. Um, these were a couple of findings, first page of three. Um, we have three audiences of {disfmarker} two audiences, {vocalsound} I'm sorry. Uh the first one, this scale, from sixteen to forty five {gap} age. Uh the second one is from sixty four {disfmarker} uh forty six to sixty five. Um, as you can see here, the market share for the first audience is about sixty percent {disfmarker} um sixty five. Uh second audience audience is uh thirty five percent. Mm {vocalsound} and some interests from the from the age groups, uh it seems like the young users of remote controls really like the fancy uh new technology stuff, like uh an L_C_D_ screen on the remote control, um speech recognition. I don't think that's uh really appropriate. Um, {vocalsound} and when you see uh the audience, the age is going up uh {disfmarker} Yeah, they don't really want it anymore, at least the new technologies. Second findings {vocalsound} out of the questionnaire um are the opinion {vocalsound} the opinions uh of the audience about current remote controls. First point is, seventy five percent of the users find the most repo remote controls very ugly, uh and eighty percent of the users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy. So that's maybe something for the User Interface uh Designer. Okay, third findings. According to the frequency of use versus importance investigation, um {vocalsound} following buttons are most important. Um, I will tell something about the way this uh this test was, yeah, done. Um, {vocalsound} persons were asked uh what the buttons were uh they use most, how much an hour,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and uh in the second table the importance of those buttons. Um, when you multiply them, you get the {disfmarker} these three points. Switching channels, um yeah, that's pretty uh pretty normal, that's what you do with a remote control. Um the second, teletext, uh and the third, uh volume controls. Um, I think it's good uh that we know what the user want {disfmarker} wants, uh at least the these three points have to be uh very clear.
Project Manager: But it's strange that the the manage board {disfmarker} the management board said that the teletext will be uh outdated by the internet. So that that's strange.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay, but uh at the moment uh teletext is {disfmarker} Yeah, th the best thing you can get uh on T_V_, like getting information.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Marketing: So uh, when you ask people, what do they use, {vocalsound} they use teletext and not the internet on a remote control.
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, okay.
Marketing: That's ridiculous. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: That's a ne i it {disfmarker} It's a new technology,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: but it's not incorporated right now. Okay, my personal preferences. Um, I think we should aim at the uh audience from sixteen to forty five. {vocalsound} Mm, first of all um it's the biggest share, the biggest audience, sixty five percent. Uh second, I think you will get the most revenue from i from it. Um, yeah, people from sixteen to forty five watch a lot of T_V_, more than uh people who are el uh elder. Um {vocalsound} second point, {vocalsound} we have to impro improve the most used functions, as I said here, switching channels, teletext and volume controls. Third point um that came out of the uh {disfmarker} of the questionnaire, uh people used to uh get lost off the remote controller, so maybe it's an idea for us uh to design ex kind of placeholder uh on side of the, yeah, of the T_V_
Project Manager: Yeah, that's a cool idea.
Marketing: where you can put the the remote control in. {vocalsound} Um, that's about it, I think. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: When you mentioned uh improving functions, what uh what do you mean by that what what are you think about?
Marketing: Uh not not the r not the functions,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, the funtionability.
Marketing: but uh it came out that a lot of buttons weren't even used uh on a remote control. So you can have a remote control full of buttons, a hundreds hundreds of buttons, but if you don't use them, yeah it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Ah okay, so focusing more on the used buttons.
Marketing: Yeah, they have to be on it
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: j just to t to get it done if necessary,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but um the most used buttons uh have to be bigger or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Could you use perhaps uh one button for multiple functions, like example pressing it in longer makes it switch to an different function for example.
Marketing: Yeah, perhaps.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
Marketing: Just for the minor functions perhaps.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, ma perhaps, just just an idea.
Marketing: Just to get less buttons on the remote control, to make it easier and quicker to learn.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah?'Kay, that's it.
Project Manager: Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} Janus, can you uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah yeah, I'll go, sure. Right uh, I'll be uh explaining a bit about uh working design about uh the project. Well uh what I did was I dissected uh uh current remote controls and um I viewed how how they w looked, how they worked, uh what kind of components are involved, and how they are connected together. And uh after that I put up a scheme about how uh these things are organised and I'll show it to you in in a in a few seconds. And I'll explain a bit about uh how it works and how we could uh build one and why I think several possibilities uh that we discussed in the earlier meeting falls off. Um right. Uh well what I did was uh I I checked uh remote controls and the uh remote controls of today are all infrared, not like all probably know. And the thing about that is um the remote controls uh have to act as a T_V_ or uh a stereo or something, and those uh have a transmitter that's also focused on infrared, so if we want to uh build uh mm a remote control uh with Bluetooth for instance then uh the T_V_ should have Bluetooth too in order to communicate, so that would mean extra cost for the user and thus uh that's that wouldn't mean a a cheap uh remote control for us. So that's probably why most controls are still infrared. Furthermore they all have uh a a very simple structure, so that would probably uh mean lower costs and uh i that could mean for us a good thing uh'cause uh well we we should be able to build a relatively cheap uh {gap} a cheap uh remote. Well uh as I mentioned ready, we have some Bluetooth {disfmarker} Well it may be possible, but uh I figured it wouldn't be possible in {disfmarker} within our budget, but that's not for me to decide, but that's maybe something for marketing to look into. F because uh {disfmarker} well my personal opinion is uh is not to do uh Bluetooth {gap} or or radio waves, {vocalsound} although {disfmarker}
Marketing: What do you think about uh incorporating Bluetooth or a radio uh receiver uh in the place-holder next to the T_V_, connected to the T_V_?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, actually I have t
Marketing: So it's in the wrong product.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, I actually {disfmarker} I figured that would be that would be rather nice, but then you'd still have the uh {disfmarker} the infrared function. So in in theory you'd actually just move the problem,
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but uh what I did uh think about was when you mentioned about the uh the cup-holder, is why not uh introduce a speech function like where is the remote. If somebody says, where is the remote, then it goes uh beep uh beep beep beep or something,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I dunno, maybe uh maybe something to look into, I dunno uh what the cost {gap} that something like that would be. But it may be uh may be something to explore. Uh I'll I'll just explain a bit of the components. Uh first you have the energy source. The energy source would be a battery, simple uh battery uh that you can find anywhere. I figured that would be best,'cause when the battery uh stops functioning uh we could just uh use {disfmarker} you could just go out and buy a new one. So we didn't {disfmarker} and we don't have to do all uh {disfmarker} to be too complicated about that. Uh the energy source is connected to the infrared button, but uh the infrared button uh works only via the chip and the subcomponent to uh the switch {disfmarker} there is a switch uh between these. When the switch is pressed in a w on this this case it switches a button, when a button is prush pushed in, uh a electric current goes through here, and in uh {disfmarker} immediately, a l a bulb lights up uh displaying to the user that something has happened. That's uh that's so the h user won't be um thinking, well uh did the button be pressed, w what happened uh. Or I press button but nothing's happening on the T_V_, so is is something wrong or something. So that's just to uh to to explain the {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} to to uh make it clearer to the user. Uh w well the signal goes via chip that's translated into uh electric sig uh electronic signals and then it's processed and then it's sent to the infrared bulb where it will be uh uh received on the receiving end. And those uh interpreted by the device, well in this case the television. Uh well my personal preferences here, well we have to keep it simple. Not too many uh gadgets and functions, just like you said uh {disfmarker} well the most users n uh you have a lot of buttons and you u u use {disfmarker} you don't use them, so why why should we invent uh {disfmarker} w spend more time on those. Uh I I think we should stick by {disfmarker} with infrared transmitting and uh no receiving. So uh no input from the television. So I think we shouldn't be uh spending time on um teletext and st things like that, because when you uh want teletext on uh infrared you'd have to build in a receiver too, and so in order to receive the signals from uh what's on T_V_ and such. So I figure that would be uh spending too much money and time and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um, yeah, maybe another problem uh, I think current T_V_s can even send infrared.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but what should we uh s I I I f I agree with you, but should we spend money or {disfmarker} and time on building a receiver into the uh remote control?
Marketing: Huh.
Industrial Designer:'Cause that would be {disfmarker} I mean extra components, extra designs, um larger g uh remote control.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: These all uh all stuff that we have to take in account.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So I I {disfmarker} my personal opinion is no no no receiver at all. Um, well
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: we should uh look into the design and the functionability. Like I said, uh use one button for instance for m multiple functions, or well uh just hide the few buttons o of switching it open or something, the usual uh {gap} stuff. And uh don't overbuild, we shouldn't make a big uh remote control for simple functions, but we we should stick to the basics. So that was my uh my personal opinion. And that was my uh my presentation uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, thank you Janus.
User Interface: Okay. Yes,
Project Manager: You do?
User Interface: I can go ahead.
Project Manager: The last presentation. You have plenty of time,
User Interface: Last presentation. Okay.
Project Manager: Tim and uh Janus don't uh talk to ten minutes,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so uh take your time.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you take your time too long I will uh eventually uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: warn you.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, I'm going to give a presentation abut some of the technical functions of these design and uh usability functions.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um what's my opinion about what's most important to combine the design, technical possibilities and the user friendliness in one, so if you um going to design a remote that looks good, that shouldn't weigh over the uh {disfmarker} if it's possible to make, of course, but also the user friendliness, so tha that's that's some of the main points. And another one is um the use um of many functions will will make it more difficult, so use as as little functions as possible or at least don't display them all at once on the same remote. If you have fifty functions you don't want fifty buttons uh t uh to be shown at the same time,
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface:'cause when you visit an internet uh site you don't want fifty links uh to see, but maybe use a hierarch hierarchy uh structure. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh well one of the ideas was maybe uh use touch screen, but s I don't know in how far that is possible,
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: since we are sticking to uh um infrared and and the remote cannot receive anything, but uh we might uh consider that. Um well, of course I I hope this is all clear to you. If you {disfmarker} you can use remote like this with all the functions, {gap} many functions, but {disfmarker} Well, your thumb is a little bigger than th it than this. You have to be very careful what you push,
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and um if you're looking for teletext you'll be uh searching for half an hour from uh um {disfmarker} yeah well, where is it? Where the hell {disfmarker} he here I guess and, yeah, when you have to uh use something else. So just keep it simple, make clear buttons, easy to use. For example if you want to use a play and back and stop, that's very important. Um well this was because of our last discussion, if multiple machines are used, create easy switch between the machines, but um it's no longer uh applying. {vocalsound} Well yeah, I prefer to use it only for T_V_ and um n uh not to give too many options and and if possible, uh the buttons should give {vocalsound} a dr direct action, not first select {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh you you just said um uh you wanted to to combine more functions in one, so uh
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: you you want to keep it simple,
User Interface: and so that's where the difficulties lie.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but I think that if you want to do that, then you can't escape the the fact that there will be buttons uh which give s uh more options than one.
User Interface: Yeah, this {disfmarker} so that's the thing you have to weigh against each other.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Do we want to use a few options and might not be so or original, or uh multi-purpose as we thought,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay.
User Interface: or do we want to use um many buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: So um weighing those factors.
Marketing: Hmm {gap} it's maybe an option uh if you use an L_C_D_ {vocalsound} or a touch screen um, that in the middle are the the main keys, like displayed on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh yeah.
User Interface: The {gap} doesn't {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap}. Yeah, this? No? Yeah. {vocalsound} Something like that. Okay, just uh in the middle the general functions, like play, uh channel switching,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and then uh at the top or at the bottom, some menus like uh settings or {disfmarker} that you can drop down.
User Interface: Yeah, but when all the questions I had {disfmarker} Do we want to use uh a menu display on the T_V_? Or um does have to f everything uh be in remotes?'Cause if you use a memory display on the T_V_, you can simply push uh a more menu and then select the options you want to have and press okay.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Uh so that's my recommendation, if you use many options in one buttle {disfmarker} button, um display the menu on the T_V_
Marketing: Nah. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and don't um use combination of t of two buttons at the same time or pressing buttons three times for five seconds,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: is too complicated for most users.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think so too, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and that's partly because um uh a lot of T_V_s have different menus, and when you have a particular menu uh at your device, uh it could be that don't correspond to the menu what's actually on T_V_.
User Interface: Yeah, that will be a problem.
Industrial Designer: Well
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: you d you have to {gap} keep in mind that uh several T_V_s uh don't even have a menu structure, or they have a very simple menu structure, so you have to keep in mind that not all uh d not {disfmarker} our remote won't be able to work on all televisions.
User Interface: Yes.
Industrial Designer: And that would be uh a considerable problem.
User Interface: So if we have to stick with current technologies and uh um well yeah, the restrictions of what's uh is on the market today, um you should keep it s at this.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Use big clear buttons. Not too many. So maybe we'll loose a few option uh options, but I think i this is more important. Um {vocalsound} especially the important buttons, um if you want to switch channel, change your volume, uh use teletext, it uh it has to work at once and more advanced options may be put it s somewhere away on the remote, behind uh a little uh little thing or a touch screen.
Industrial Designer: Not embed Yeah, but then with something like a touch screen could {disfmarker} could make more menu up {disfmarker} pop up or something.
User Interface: And yeah, if you want to uh uh s put {gap} on stand-by or change the channel, that should always be possible to do. Not first change menu options or switch something.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Um, well yeah, as you already told, give some feedback. If the user is pushing a button he should know if the television or n at least remote is reacting and not just that the batteries may be low.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: And um, well, my conclusion is uh is uh less is more, keep it simple. So uh maybe we should just ease down on the functionality to uh to keep it accessible on t because you all know, if there are a lot of function {gap} on the the television, some you you'll never know uh and never use, and therefore it's uh important
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: if you want to change the volume or channel that is always accessible and easy and other functions um that are not so important {disfmarker} um well you {disfmarker} we should consider just not using them or at least putting them somewhere on the remote where they're not in the way for the for the most important functions.
Marketing: Yeah. Uh, I think the idea uh about uh touch screen um is very good. Um, because recently uh I saw news item on T_V_ um about uh new telephones uh for elder people. Um, they have like a touch screen with uh really big pictures on it like uh uh call uh hang-up, um and that's a big ad advantage I think, because one the one hand uh you make the remote control compatible for elder users just by uh scaling up the pictures or something.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: It's uh very visual intended. {vocalsound} What was I to say more?
User Interface: Maybe that's an option. Um keep the primary buttons visible. Uh make a remote that fits easily in the hands
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and for some design issues uh well, put a logo on it and maybe use it uh in some aesthetic uh aesthetic form.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But uh th the important buttons m make them always accessible and pushable and clear
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and maybe use a touch screen, or if that's uh will become too difficult just uh like televi some o older telephones use a l uh maybe it's possible to to flip them open and uh just expand the number of options that are normally visible. Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay, but but if you pick the the idea, the left idea
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: then what's gonna be displayed on the touch screen?
Industrial Designer: The extra functions.
User Interface: The extra functions, you uh you just see a menu from system functions or teletext functions, and you just choose one,
Marketing: Yeah, but l like menu functions or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: and then all all the options will become available
Marketing: Ah okay.
User Interface: and you just c s yeah t scroll through them.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wouldn't it be better to make just one big touch screen, uh one one small uh touch screen uh applet
Marketing: Yeah, I think so.
Industrial Designer: and uh I'll just make um {disfmarker} uh let's say fifteen buttons on it, and uh we have three of those, uh actually just uh menus with sub-menus, with {disfmarker} or sub-items, sub-functions.
User Interface: Well um
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: then I'd like to make a proposal.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you make one big touch screen,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes.
User Interface: use the same concept as here, keep the buttons always available
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and use the lower part of the touch screen for the rest.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: like like the iPod idea that that we just saw.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You just have a f a few selected buttons and uh a few menus, and with this idea you could actually make uh several {disfmarker} you can also improve uh later on.
User Interface: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh uh I think that will be great.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So you think it's will be better to have a t kinda total touch screen.
Marketing: Yeah, I think so.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I wou I would actually go for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Jirun?
User Interface: Okay, I agree, but I think it's very important that they always um make the same buttons accessible, so use just for special options a part of the touch screen.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, of course.
User Interface: And so um an elder designer picks up th the {disfmarker} of
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: an elder parents or grandparent picks up the remote from the little child and who's all in the systems functions, you'll have to have the possibility to turn off the T_V_ or to switch the channel without um well using all the menu structures to get back to the primary functions.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, I had another uh idea about maybe parental control. Um,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: like building in uh some kind of PIN code uh which allows uh parents to switch to all channels, uh
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: but children uh {disfmarker} if children don't don't know the PIN code, they can't switch to uh violent uh channels or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah wh Is that possible to use or no?
Industrial Designer: That is possible, that {disfmarker} well that actually depends on the television,
Marketing: Th there's just {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, yeah well,
Industrial Designer: but I think {disfmarker} I figure that would be {disfmarker}
User Interface: does it have to depend on the television?
Marketing: Ju just a simple log-in, something like that.
Industrial Designer: Well,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: y you s you see the fi uh thing is when you buy a remote, you you set the uh channels, the the channels are different on each te television,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: they aren't set in a preset order,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so uh if you uh lock on a remote, uh let's say channel fifteen, well channel fifteen on this television is different than channel fifteen on the other television,
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay.
Industrial Designer: so that would be uh that would be actually the main concern.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: Well, I think that he means that um maybe by some option uh {disfmarker} make sure that um remote control and the T_V_ match, and then after that you can um use some s insert some passwords as being apparent that the children cannot use this uh {disfmarker} change the settings of the T_V_, like colour and then volume
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, th that kind of stuff, but maybe um if you log in first as a parent um, you address the the channels
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: and like uh oh, that's channel fifteen, that's uh vi violent channel,
User Interface: Oh, something like that.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: uh m my ki my kids uh {disfmarker} I don't want my kids to watch that,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: then you set the priority to only parents,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Well b but make it a separate option in the menu,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would b
Marketing: for example. But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, that.
User Interface: so that it's it's dif dis displayed from uh {disfmarker} displayed here,
Marketing: Yeah okay, but but {disfmarker} yeah, that's just
User Interface: so uh parents uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: that's an a an added feature.
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. But let's not uh go too wide about the {disfmarker} those things, that's that why we're here.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, {vocalsound} th th those things are nice. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's it's a nice idea, but I think that's we wel {vocalsound} later in the stage. I've one little question about um a total touch screen or uh um a p
Marketing: Partial.
Project Manager: yeah, a partial, uh because I think uh elderly people may be uh not used to uh a touch screen, so they want the the the normal functions like teletext, volume changing, um uh to be uh, yeah, kinda traditionals
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: uh and uh {vocalsound} the the the the other functions, the more difficult functions uh to be uh maybe on the touch screen,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: but to keep this as uh normal as possible, to keep it accessible.
Marketing: Yeah, but but if you display it on L_C_D_ screen with r r really big numbers
User Interface: Yeah, you can de display it on the on the old style.
Marketing: that's just as e just as easy.
Industrial Designer: Uh. I I do {disfmarker}
User Interface: You can display actual buttons on the touch screens.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, that's true, that's true.
Industrial Designer: Uh I do agree,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: because well, it's just not the same when you touch a touch screen
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Industrial Designer: or when you touch a button, but well we have to look at what's our target uh audience.
Marketing: Yeah, it's different.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: W we are aiming for younger people
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true, yeah.
Industrial Designer: and they they chose {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, age b below forty.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yep.
Industrial Designer: So that's that's probably uh a {disfmarker}
Marketing: And th those young people, yeah. Y you saw it in my marketing report, they like the new fancy stuff,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. They like the fancy stuff, yeah. That's true.
Marketing: so {disfmarker} A touch screen, like Microsoft al already developed something like that for uh uh multi-media applications.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: I th I think we can do that too.
Project Manager: Mm {disfmarker} Yeah. Okay, as you can see uh the minutes from the second meeting, this one, are uh {vocalsound} are done.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Done. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh I've uh added the {disfmarker} this uh four things from the management board just to keep in mind.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um each time I uh I had a sort of uh summary on what you told and uh what you personal think. Uh so that can be uh can be read out. Uh a f a few things I uh I noticed uh were um {disfmarker} Moment. Ooh. Uh th the the main points in uh this uh uh in this uh meeting is I think uh how uh it's going to look uh with uh {disfmarker} we must keep it simple, but have the opportunity to uh have more options and have them uh hidden or something, so they don't {disfmarker} uh you don't have a big uh thing full of uh buttons or uh {disfmarker} um and uh the point that uh you uh wanna use one uh controller uh for uh uh hypothetically {vocalsound} each television, so you must uh the the the the functions, know, like the menus or the the parental control must be all uh by the {disfmarker} done by the remote control and not by the television. I think that's the point what uh
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: we discussed.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, some of them. The menus uh are not identical for all th for all T_V_s, so you have to display it on one uh T_V_.
User Interface: Well you can use um {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh how do you call it, s um synchronized, the um remote and the T_V_,
Marketing: Yeah, but that's not possible.
User Interface: then there's always, there are always uh possibilities to change the colour and the brightness and the volume
Marketing: Mm-hmm, mm yeah.
User Interface: and um well maybe we can look out if there's options that the remote um in its memory can see what kinda T_V_ it is, from {disfmarker} ah, it's a Philips, this and this and that, and then give the options that are capable {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} capable from the t
Project Manager: Yeah, but you have uh uh an {disfmarker}
Marketing: Add th that that's an opportunity {gap}.
Project Manager: yeah, but you have an international market range, so you have I think a big range of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well there are universal d um um remotes
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and they all have a functionality for all the T_V_s, uh so this wouldn't be a extra feature to incorporate the men menus of these.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But they {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's not too complex to do it.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Well they uh they all have to be programmed to fit your T_V_
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that that is bit of a tricky job.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I actually use one of those when {disfmarker} They are they are kinda kinda troublesome, but but the thing is whe when you uh start uh building something like this you have to build a receiver into the uh t into the remotes, because uh in order for the remote to process something from the T_V_, like uh to synchronise and you have to send and receive,
User Interface: Yeah. Well {disfmarker} Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh um mo
Industrial Designer: and that's well {disfmarker}
Marketing: No no no.
User Interface: no, you can just say uh the c
Marketing: {vocalsound} He he he he me he means just just one other thing.
Project Manager: Just build it in.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Uh, with the current remote controls, the universal ones, um you have to press {disfmarker} yeah, you have to press a code for T_V_.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yes.
User Interface: In codes, y you you get a b a book with codes. You look up, I have a Philips H_ fifty five
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: and it says press code four five five
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oh, okay, yeah, sure, uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: and you press code four five five on the {disfmarker} uh in the remote
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah.
User Interface: and it displays all your uh menu options.
Industrial Designer: Oh, yeah yeah, sure, that would be possible, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Now we uh just connect uh the T_V_ type uh to a set of options, in {disfmarker} just just in the memory,
User Interface: Memory in the in the remote.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Profiles.
Marketing: so that if you {disfmarker} yeah, like profile, so that if you uh touch in like uh one four one zero kind of T_V_ uh
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: the memory uh pops up the options.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, that would be possible. Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: I th don't think that's uh {disfmarker} that takes a lot of storage space or some just varia variables.
Industrial Designer: No, that wouldn't be uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, well um
Industrial Designer: Yeah, a few variables.
User Interface: if you look at the um manuals from universal uh remotes, there are maybe um three four hundreds T_V_s at maximum. If you have all of them, all the old and new T_V_s summed up,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: so uh I think uh it is possible {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Ah it is. It is definitely po
Marketing: But, on the other hand on the other hand, uh if you have a remote and buy a new T_V_ that isn't incorporated in the remote {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We have five minutes to go.
User Interface: Yeah. Well then you have to buy a new one, it's very good for marketing
Marketing: New remote?
User Interface: Maybe, or an update, software update.
Marketing: A firmware upgrade or something,
User Interface: Firmware update, you say.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, firmware upgrade.
Marketing: but from where? Ah. Maybe w
Industrial Designer: That's maybe the cup holder.
Marketing: No m may no,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: maybe we can incorporate some kind of uh U_S_B_ or a firewire connection, so that you can uh connect it to the P_C_ and download the newest firmware from uh from the internet.
Industrial Designer: Well, not everybody has uh has uh a P_C_ at home. Well the most most people have,
User Interface: Well, at {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but not not everybody
User Interface: uh you can go back to the shop
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: and uh they {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: like a s kind of service centre.
User Interface: Yeah, ser o
Industrial Designer: Yeah, maybe something like service cen
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and they can download it for you.
Industrial Designer: Or you could {disfmarker} well you could s actually look at the place-holder you talked about earlier,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and you could probably uh make a connection to uh an telephone line or a internet connection.
User Interface: Yeah. Well already digital information is sent t to the the standards, T_V_ uh connections,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: you can see what's uh programme is on on the new uh channels, so maybe j they {disfmarker} we can send that information along with standard T_V_ uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well then then it's be uh back to the building a receiving uh {disfmarker} well uh if it's actually worth it to build it in,
User Interface: Receiving. Oh yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: we could actually look at {disfmarker} into it,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} I dunno, it it would be uh bringing more costs {gap} uh with with it
User Interface: Difficult. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I I think it's uh most cheap or cheapest to just do the updates uh at the service centre or at the shop.
User Interface: Yeah yeah, uh s I think some {disfmarker} I think it's good idea, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would be probably best, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Like when you when you buy a T_V_ you just ask {disfmarker} well I'll {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's it's not a lot of work, just one uh docking station where you put it in,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: press start, bling bling, updated.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would be best, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} You don't buy a T_V_ every week, new teev so.
User Interface: Okay, let's uh save this in the meanwhile uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No no. Exactly, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um m for which one are we going? {gap} My mistake.
Marketing: Let's vote.
User Interface: That one or uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, my vote goes out to the right {gap}.
User Interface: Your vote and your {disfmarker}
Marketing: My vote too.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And your vote?
User Interface: Well, I was uh doubting about which one to take, but uh you've convinced me that uh if you di display buttons about the same as they would look on a normal um remote all elderly people will know what to do.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: And also like a clapping uh li like device that uh pops open.
User Interface: Opens up is too difficult
Industrial Designer: Flips open.
User Interface: or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh too difficult, um maybe uh it's easier to break it.
Project Manager: N yeah.
User Interface: Break it, I don't get {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, th th th that i uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: It's very sensitive.
User Interface: Oh so {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like my telephone, it's uh it's sensitive too.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay well uh it's almost at the end. So we have now a lunch break, finally,
Marketing: Ah.
Project Manager: yeah. {vocalsound} Uh after the lunch break uh it's back to uh individual work, once again uh thirty minutes. Uh I will put my minutes {disfmarker} uh I have updated them so uh s they're updated in the shared folder too.
Marketing: Thirty minutes?
Project Manager: Thirty minutes, the {disfmarker}
Marketing: How minutes? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Failure. Uh {vocalsound} uh the specifi uh specific instructions for the next uh meeting you will {disfmarker} all will receive uh at the uh the the email. I don't think I can uh say much about it, so uh uh wait for your email and uh hopefully you get it done uh in the in the thirty minutes, and I w will see you after the lunch break and the thirty minutes.
Marketing: One question,
Project Manager: Yeah?
Marketing: uh how late do we have to get back {disfmarker} be back here?
Project Manager: Uh well uh thirty minutes.
User Interface: A quarter to one maybe?
Project Manager: Uh, yeah.
Marketing: Thirty minutes lunch break?
Project Manager: Thirty minutes lunch break, yeah. Oh. Forty five?
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: I thought forty five.
Project Manager: Uh then would it be uh one o'clock.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: Or we we ask our personal coach. Okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thank you. Thank you, uh that was a very uh good session I think,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: we uh we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, is it possible to store this on the share documents or what {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, me too.
Project Manager: Uh ye well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Save as.
Project Manager: Yeah, because uh all uh things are uh stored in smart board dot uh X_D_K_
Marketing: Yeah, v
Project Manager: and that's in {disfmarker}
Marketing: But but you can open a {disfmarker} from your pr from your laptop.
User Interface:'Kay, save it as an image on the res
Marketing: Yeah, maybe. Save as.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: Export. Maybe not export function.
Marketing: No. Export.
Project Manager: Well I can I can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Export H_T_M_L_.
User Interface: No, and use an image if possible.
Marketing: Huh, image?
User Interface: J_ PEG.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} G_ {disfmarker} yeah, J_ PEG.
User Interface: J_ PEG. Yeah, it's better
Marketing: Paper size A_ four. Uh screen size. In this directory.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: N oh.
User Interface: Oh yeah, it's not connected to the
Project Manager: You all uh have the the questionnaire again about uh the after work.
User Interface: to our P_C_s.
Marketing: No? Yeah, it is connected.
User Interface: It's connected?
Marketing: Yeah, I think so.
Project Manager: Deskt Huh. No.
Industrial Designer: To room. I'll just uh saved in my documents.
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} in my own uh {disfmarker} in my own messenger.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Project documents, yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: It gives the na Oh. Yes.
Project Manager: Okay,
Industrial Designer: Okay, nice.
Project Manager: thank you.
User Interface: The questionnaire, fill in {disfmarker} uh we fill out d after lunch or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh well, it's it's simply filling {disfmarker} oh no, it's uh it's also filling out {disfmarker} no, I'd do it after lunch I think.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Aye, cheers.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I'm hungry, so do it after lunch.
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you all.
Marketing: Thank you.
Project Manager: You're welcome.
User Interface: We can leave the P_C_ on I think, yeah and return to the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, of course.
Project Manager: Yeah. Well I bring it to my uh personal room.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, bring to {disfmarker} I gotta bring it home.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: To my exave executive {disfmarker}
Project Manager: My executive uh big room with the with the panting. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A big office.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: Aye. Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} | Industrial Designer first explained how the remote control worked and how people could build one. Based on this, he rejected the idea of using Bluetooth, which was proposed during the last meeting, by pointing out that the cost would be over the budget. From the aspect of Industrial Designer, he/she recommended to keep the remote control simple and still use infrared technology. When it came to the design and functionality, Industrial Designer thought that they should stick to the basic things. | qmsum |
Summarize the team building process with favourite animals.
Project Manager: Alright, that did nothing. Okay. Welcome to the meeting everyone. Just gonna attempt to make this into a slide show. Sorry guys.
Marketing: You may have to do the function F_ eight thing.
Project Manager: I did. Twice.
Marketing: Oh, okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This'll just take a moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay okay {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or it won't.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we'll have to deal with it like this then.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright. Um. This is the first meeting uh for developing our, our new product. {gap} I'm Heather, I'm your Project Manager.
Industrial Designer: Hello. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. So um. So that was the opening.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The first thing we'll do is get acquainted with one another. If everyone could go around and explain their role and um, and their name.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. My name's Poppy. I'm the Industrial Designer for this project. Um, I'm going to be responsible for the functional design phase. Also the conceptual design and the detailed design for the final product.
Project Manager: Nice to meet you Poppy.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} My name's Tara and I'm the User Interface Designer.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I will also be responsible for the functional design phase, the conceptual design phase and the detailed design phase of the user interface design. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: Hi, I'm Genevieve. I'm the Marketing Expert. I'm an expert at marketing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um, I'll be telling you guys about the user requirement specifications for our new product. Um, I'll be doing some trend-watching in the conceptual design, and product evaluation for the design phase.
Project Manager: Alright I'm Heather and I've I said I'm your Project Manager, um Well you can pretty much read what it is that I'm doing. But um um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. And uh tool training is one thing that we're going to be doing today, um um as well as planning the project, how we're going to, uh, create this product, and, um, discuss, um, our aims and objects of this, Which brings us to our next subject,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is, um, um,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: as a team we're going to be designing and creating a new kind of remote control. Um, we want this to be a marketable product that can be trendy, um, a completely new style, so that, um, can really appeal to a, to a generation that doesn't want a simple plain kind of, uh, channel-changer. And, um, it needs to be user-friendly for, um, maybe, for an example, for people that, um, can't see the numbers as well, or, um, perhaps an ergonomic design.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So this is a television remote control?
Project Manager: Yes, it's a television remote control.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. I believe I should be taking minutes on this right now. So, alright.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Um, the way that we're going to go about this is, um, we'll have a time where we can, um come up with new ideas alone, and, and work on the project and then, um, after we've brainstormed and, and thought about, we can come together in a meeting and, and discuss what, what um, what kind of functional design we want to use. Same with conceptual design and detailed design. So, um, making sure that it, it's usable, that as a, um {disfmarker} and that it's, it's feasible to create, and uh, to come up with a concept of it want, what we want it to look like. Um, tool training. Is, is everyone, um {disfmarker} {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Got those notes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Great. Great.
Marketing: Thank you.
Project Manager: Um One thing that, uh, we're going to do is become more acquainted with the, the tools that we have access to for our project. Um, one of them is our whiteboard. And, um, as a sort of team-building moment, um, I, I'd like us to, um, try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, why that, why that should be your favourite animal. So, um, I, I'm assuming that we should do that now.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With our microphones still attached to our bodies. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Gosh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, what's my favourite animal?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do come up. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to go first. {vocalsound} Oh,
Project Manager: This is a team-building time
Industrial Designer: are we all doing it individually?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: where, um, {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Okay, let's stand up and support you {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay cool, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My favourite animal, which changes all the time, okay,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right now it is an elk.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: An elk?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: alright, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A vicious {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And it goes like {disfmarker} Yeah it's got like big antlers,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah. Looks kinda like, like it has holly growing out of its head.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from?
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: You do.
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: We have moose too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have sheep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}'Kay, um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sheep. Yeah,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: cows.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's a great elk.
Marketing: Uh-oh, we have a good artist. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That is really good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thanks.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm quite {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is my {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, very shapely.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Brilliant.
Project Manager: That's a sketching of my my elk, and it, it is my favourite animal right now,'cause it is a large beautiful majestic creature,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um, that um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In a way it looks kind of awkward, because it's on spindly legs and it uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it can really overcome harsh terrain, and although it's gorgeous it's also very dangerous, because it has um strong antlers, and uh it can really combat its enemies, even like it it's a it's an herbivore but, uh, it can really defend itself.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. Okay.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right, I'm gonna take minutes while, um, you guys express your favourite animals.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay, I'll go next. I am a big animal lover. like all sorts of animals, but for the moment I'm gonna draw a cat, in memory of my poor cat that died recently. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be a bit of a strange drawing, but never mind.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not as artistic as Heather's drawing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bit more cartoon style.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I like cats because they're so independent, and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing. Um, but that doesn't mean they're completely not sociable,'cause they enjoy interacting with humans as well, and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and, um, running around outside as well as being inside, and enjoying their food, and generally just, they just seemed so cool and {vocalsound} they just know what they're doing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I reckon they're sort of, they got it sorted. They know what they want.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Basically, that's why I like cats. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Very good. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'll rub that out. There you go. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. I think my favourite animal would be a dog, but I'm not really sure {vocalsound} how to draw one.
Industrial Designer: Ooh.
User Interface: I, I've never drawn a dog, I don't think. I'm tempted to draw a snail'cause I draw them sometimes {vocalsound} and they're really easy to draw.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Project Manager: I forget her name.
User Interface: right it's gonna be a really funny dog,'cause I'm not sure how to draw a dog.
Marketing: Tara
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or Tara.
Industrial Designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs, so I'm sure it'll represent one kind of dog. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a cartoon dog I think.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A s I don't ev Oh, oh well. {vocalsound} It's a scary cartoon dog. That {disfmarker} This,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that does not look like a dog.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks kinda like a person. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We can pretend. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's Pinocchio.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} How do you draw a dog? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god. Right. Yous know what it's supposed to be.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a dog. {vocalsound}. Um, I like dogs because, um, they're so good to humans, like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeing-eye dogs, and they're just such friendly animals. And, like they're more of a companion than cats.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I've nothing against cats. Cats don't really like me, so I can't like them.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But they're just so friendly and warm and nice animals,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} that don't look like that. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alrighty. I feel like a robot.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Um, well I guess I had the most time to think about it. I'm going to draw a butterfly, because I saw a butterfly yesterday, that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving. And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I've ever seen out in the wild, and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland. It was like, well it was a little pointier than that. At first I thought it was a dead leaf.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then it landed on the wall next to me. But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this. And then it kinda {disfmarker} there was a green, I think it was a green ring, and there was like red going out like this.
Project Manager: It's kinda like a peacock.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, it kinda was actually,'cause it was {disfmarker} This part of the body was really dull, and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever, and I'm like, wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I thought that was pretty cool. And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes. I wish I'd had my camera. So that's gonna be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. {vocalsound}
Marketing: There you go.
Project Manager: Great.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh, what do we {disfmarker} Oh.
Project Manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that?
Marketing: Yes I do. {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: Yea {vocalsound} Right.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, now that we know how to use the whiteboard,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: um, the next, um, thing we need to address is our financial department, to meet our our budget, um {disfmarker} or not meet our budget but more, um, like what kind of, uh, selling range we'll be looking at, um, wanna make this um {gap} selling price of twenty five Euros. And so we have to, um, come up with a way to, to create a, a uh remote control, where um we can {disfmarker} like the price to create it will be significantly less. Um, we'd like to, um to, uh, make fifty million Euro. I'm assuming that's what the M_ means. Um, and make it for an international market. Um, one thing we'd have to think about internationally is in the design of, um, like different kinds of, uh, V_C_R_s. Things like that, depending on which country you are. Another thing for the design team to think about. Um, we want it to cost, uh, absolute maximum of twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Marketing: Okay, so we'll have a hundred percent profit then? Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I'm bad at math.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay. {vocalsound} Um,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so now that, um, that is underway, um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it is discussion time. So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas, any um suggestions that you may have so far, a um your personal experiences with remote controls, and um, um, areas you see that, uh, could be improved in your experience with them. Does anyone have any initial thoughts?
Marketing: I find that in the dark it's often hard to know what button you're pushing.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. So what's something we could, uh, do to remedy that?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's always, where is the remote control?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking {vocalsound} device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno, some kind of alarm. You can press a button on your wall, {gap} signal,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's a great idea. It's a great idea.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'cause it always gets lost.
User Interface: Do yous not find that, um, {vocalsound} like, there's a lot of, um, buttons on your remote control, and you don't know what half of them do.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that you don't use half of them. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know what they do. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. There's some remote controls where there's kind of a hidden panel, so all those buttons that you don't really use unless you're programming or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's, that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's useful.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Marketing: So you just have like the number buttons, power button, T_V_ video button.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Alright. Anything about, um, the look of the, uh, remote control that you might have ideas about. Maybe it could be, instead of like a standard rectangular shape, it could be, um, something more interesting like {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any ideas will do that you have at this point.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can hold it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A novelty.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you know. Be like a shell-shaped remote. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here. Like, I've seen phones like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if it's a trendy original, um, aspect we're going for.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I mean, you're the designers, you c, you can um decide what kind of, um, direction you wanna go in,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but at this point in the, in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I suppose, if we're he heading to have it, like make a huge profit out of this, it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing. Like, a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than, like, a general kind of more acceptable {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But we don't wanna go towards boring,'cause that wouldn't sell either.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, hmm.
Project Manager: And the key issue here is, is being trendy and original. Um, that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Okay we have five minutes left. So, just to cover {disfmarker} We have one more thing. Um, like you can go over your ideas, of course, in your own personal times. Um, our next meeting will be in half an hour.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So you have half an hour to, uh, think about what you want to present. Or not present but bring to the meeting. Um, I_D_, whatever that stands for.
Industrial Designer: Industrial Designer.
Marketing: Interface?
Project Manager: Industrial Designer.
Industrial Designer: That's me. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, industrial.
Project Manager: I have to remember these things. Um. You'll be beginning your, your working design.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um, U_I_D_ the technical functions design will, will be worked on the next thirty minutes. Um, {vocalsound} maybe how this can be achieved, and, um, we need the user requirements from the manag Marketing Expert.
Marketing: Marketing Expert. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, you will get specific instructions, um, of what to do in the next half an hour. And I'll see you in half an hour, okay?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: {gap} | The team took turns to draw their favourite animals on the whiteboard while discussing what characteristics of that animal they liked. Project Manager's favourite animal at the time was an elk, since she considered it a large beautiful majestic creature that can overcome harsh terrain and defend itself. Industrial Designer followed with a cat, favoured for its independence and always knowing what they were doing. User Interface drew a dog, for dogs were trainable and friendly. Finally, Marketing chose a butterfly, seeing it as the symbol of spring arriving. | qmsum |
Summarize Marketing's story and description of the butterfly she drew during the discussion of favourite animals.
Project Manager: Alright, that did nothing. Okay. Welcome to the meeting everyone. Just gonna attempt to make this into a slide show. Sorry guys.
Marketing: You may have to do the function F_ eight thing.
Project Manager: I did. Twice.
Marketing: Oh, okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This'll just take a moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay okay {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or it won't.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we'll have to deal with it like this then.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright. Um. This is the first meeting uh for developing our, our new product. {gap} I'm Heather, I'm your Project Manager.
Industrial Designer: Hello. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. So um. So that was the opening.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The first thing we'll do is get acquainted with one another. If everyone could go around and explain their role and um, and their name.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. My name's Poppy. I'm the Industrial Designer for this project. Um, I'm going to be responsible for the functional design phase. Also the conceptual design and the detailed design for the final product.
Project Manager: Nice to meet you Poppy.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} My name's Tara and I'm the User Interface Designer.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I will also be responsible for the functional design phase, the conceptual design phase and the detailed design phase of the user interface design. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: Hi, I'm Genevieve. I'm the Marketing Expert. I'm an expert at marketing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um, I'll be telling you guys about the user requirement specifications for our new product. Um, I'll be doing some trend-watching in the conceptual design, and product evaluation for the design phase.
Project Manager: Alright I'm Heather and I've I said I'm your Project Manager, um Well you can pretty much read what it is that I'm doing. But um um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. And uh tool training is one thing that we're going to be doing today, um um as well as planning the project, how we're going to, uh, create this product, and, um, discuss, um, our aims and objects of this, Which brings us to our next subject,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is, um, um,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: as a team we're going to be designing and creating a new kind of remote control. Um, we want this to be a marketable product that can be trendy, um, a completely new style, so that, um, can really appeal to a, to a generation that doesn't want a simple plain kind of, uh, channel-changer. And, um, it needs to be user-friendly for, um, maybe, for an example, for people that, um, can't see the numbers as well, or, um, perhaps an ergonomic design.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So this is a television remote control?
Project Manager: Yes, it's a television remote control.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. I believe I should be taking minutes on this right now. So, alright.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Um, the way that we're going to go about this is, um, we'll have a time where we can, um come up with new ideas alone, and, and work on the project and then, um, after we've brainstormed and, and thought about, we can come together in a meeting and, and discuss what, what um, what kind of functional design we want to use. Same with conceptual design and detailed design. So, um, making sure that it, it's usable, that as a, um {disfmarker} and that it's, it's feasible to create, and uh, to come up with a concept of it want, what we want it to look like. Um, tool training. Is, is everyone, um {disfmarker} {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Got those notes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Great. Great.
Marketing: Thank you.
Project Manager: Um One thing that, uh, we're going to do is become more acquainted with the, the tools that we have access to for our project. Um, one of them is our whiteboard. And, um, as a sort of team-building moment, um, I, I'd like us to, um, try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, why that, why that should be your favourite animal. So, um, I, I'm assuming that we should do that now.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With our microphones still attached to our bodies. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Gosh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, what's my favourite animal?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do come up. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to go first. {vocalsound} Oh,
Project Manager: This is a team-building time
Industrial Designer: are we all doing it individually?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: where, um, {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Okay, let's stand up and support you {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay cool, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My favourite animal, which changes all the time, okay,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right now it is an elk.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: An elk?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: alright, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A vicious {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And it goes like {disfmarker} Yeah it's got like big antlers,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah. Looks kinda like, like it has holly growing out of its head.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from?
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: You do.
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: We have moose too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have sheep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}'Kay, um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sheep. Yeah,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: cows.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's a great elk.
Marketing: Uh-oh, we have a good artist. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That is really good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thanks.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm quite {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is my {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, very shapely.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Brilliant.
Project Manager: That's a sketching of my my elk, and it, it is my favourite animal right now,'cause it is a large beautiful majestic creature,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um, that um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In a way it looks kind of awkward, because it's on spindly legs and it uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it can really overcome harsh terrain, and although it's gorgeous it's also very dangerous, because it has um strong antlers, and uh it can really combat its enemies, even like it it's a it's an herbivore but, uh, it can really defend itself.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. Okay.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right, I'm gonna take minutes while, um, you guys express your favourite animals.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay, I'll go next. I am a big animal lover. like all sorts of animals, but for the moment I'm gonna draw a cat, in memory of my poor cat that died recently. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be a bit of a strange drawing, but never mind.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not as artistic as Heather's drawing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bit more cartoon style.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I like cats because they're so independent, and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing. Um, but that doesn't mean they're completely not sociable,'cause they enjoy interacting with humans as well, and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and, um, running around outside as well as being inside, and enjoying their food, and generally just, they just seemed so cool and {vocalsound} they just know what they're doing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I reckon they're sort of, they got it sorted. They know what they want.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Basically, that's why I like cats. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Very good. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'll rub that out. There you go. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. I think my favourite animal would be a dog, but I'm not really sure {vocalsound} how to draw one.
Industrial Designer: Ooh.
User Interface: I, I've never drawn a dog, I don't think. I'm tempted to draw a snail'cause I draw them sometimes {vocalsound} and they're really easy to draw.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Project Manager: I forget her name.
User Interface: right it's gonna be a really funny dog,'cause I'm not sure how to draw a dog.
Marketing: Tara
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or Tara.
Industrial Designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs, so I'm sure it'll represent one kind of dog. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a cartoon dog I think.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A s I don't ev Oh, oh well. {vocalsound} It's a scary cartoon dog. That {disfmarker} This,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that does not look like a dog.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks kinda like a person. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We can pretend. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's Pinocchio.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} How do you draw a dog? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god. Right. Yous know what it's supposed to be.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a dog. {vocalsound}. Um, I like dogs because, um, they're so good to humans, like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeing-eye dogs, and they're just such friendly animals. And, like they're more of a companion than cats.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I've nothing against cats. Cats don't really like me, so I can't like them.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But they're just so friendly and warm and nice animals,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} that don't look like that. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alrighty. I feel like a robot.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Um, well I guess I had the most time to think about it. I'm going to draw a butterfly, because I saw a butterfly yesterday, that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving. And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I've ever seen out in the wild, and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland. It was like, well it was a little pointier than that. At first I thought it was a dead leaf.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then it landed on the wall next to me. But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this. And then it kinda {disfmarker} there was a green, I think it was a green ring, and there was like red going out like this.
Project Manager: It's kinda like a peacock.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, it kinda was actually,'cause it was {disfmarker} This part of the body was really dull, and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever, and I'm like, wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I thought that was pretty cool. And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes. I wish I'd had my camera. So that's gonna be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. {vocalsound}
Marketing: There you go.
Project Manager: Great.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh, what do we {disfmarker} Oh.
Project Manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that?
Marketing: Yes I do. {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: Yea {vocalsound} Right.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, now that we know how to use the whiteboard,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: um, the next, um, thing we need to address is our financial department, to meet our our budget, um {disfmarker} or not meet our budget but more, um, like what kind of, uh, selling range we'll be looking at, um, wanna make this um {gap} selling price of twenty five Euros. And so we have to, um, come up with a way to, to create a, a uh remote control, where um we can {disfmarker} like the price to create it will be significantly less. Um, we'd like to, um to, uh, make fifty million Euro. I'm assuming that's what the M_ means. Um, and make it for an international market. Um, one thing we'd have to think about internationally is in the design of, um, like different kinds of, uh, V_C_R_s. Things like that, depending on which country you are. Another thing for the design team to think about. Um, we want it to cost, uh, absolute maximum of twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Marketing: Okay, so we'll have a hundred percent profit then? Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I'm bad at math.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay. {vocalsound} Um,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so now that, um, that is underway, um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it is discussion time. So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas, any um suggestions that you may have so far, a um your personal experiences with remote controls, and um, um, areas you see that, uh, could be improved in your experience with them. Does anyone have any initial thoughts?
Marketing: I find that in the dark it's often hard to know what button you're pushing.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. So what's something we could, uh, do to remedy that?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's always, where is the remote control?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking {vocalsound} device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno, some kind of alarm. You can press a button on your wall, {gap} signal,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's a great idea. It's a great idea.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'cause it always gets lost.
User Interface: Do yous not find that, um, {vocalsound} like, there's a lot of, um, buttons on your remote control, and you don't know what half of them do.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that you don't use half of them. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know what they do. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. There's some remote controls where there's kind of a hidden panel, so all those buttons that you don't really use unless you're programming or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's, that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's useful.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Marketing: So you just have like the number buttons, power button, T_V_ video button.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Alright. Anything about, um, the look of the, uh, remote control that you might have ideas about. Maybe it could be, instead of like a standard rectangular shape, it could be, um, something more interesting like {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any ideas will do that you have at this point.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can hold it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A novelty.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you know. Be like a shell-shaped remote. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here. Like, I've seen phones like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if it's a trendy original, um, aspect we're going for.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I mean, you're the designers, you c, you can um decide what kind of, um, direction you wanna go in,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but at this point in the, in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I suppose, if we're he heading to have it, like make a huge profit out of this, it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing. Like, a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than, like, a general kind of more acceptable {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But we don't wanna go towards boring,'cause that wouldn't sell either.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, hmm.
Project Manager: And the key issue here is, is being trendy and original. Um, that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Okay we have five minutes left. So, just to cover {disfmarker} We have one more thing. Um, like you can go over your ideas, of course, in your own personal times. Um, our next meeting will be in half an hour.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So you have half an hour to, uh, think about what you want to present. Or not present but bring to the meeting. Um, I_D_, whatever that stands for.
Industrial Designer: Industrial Designer.
Marketing: Interface?
Project Manager: Industrial Designer.
Industrial Designer: That's me. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, industrial.
Project Manager: I have to remember these things. Um. You'll be beginning your, your working design.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um, U_I_D_ the technical functions design will, will be worked on the next thirty minutes. Um, {vocalsound} maybe how this can be achieved, and, um, we need the user requirements from the manag Marketing Expert.
Marketing: Marketing Expert. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, you will get specific instructions, um, of what to do in the next half an hour. And I'll see you in half an hour, okay?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: {gap} | Marketing drew a butterfly because she had seen one the day before, which she considered as the symbol of spring arriving. It was the prettiest butterfly she had ever seen out in the wild, and this was quite unusual where they lived. Mistaking it as a dead leaf at first, she saw the butterfly land next to her, showing as colourful and exotica body as that of a peacock. Marketing appreciated her encounter with the butterfly very much. | qmsum |
Summarize the team's brainstorming process for raising initial thoughts.
Project Manager: Alright, that did nothing. Okay. Welcome to the meeting everyone. Just gonna attempt to make this into a slide show. Sorry guys.
Marketing: You may have to do the function F_ eight thing.
Project Manager: I did. Twice.
Marketing: Oh, okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This'll just take a moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay okay {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or it won't.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we'll have to deal with it like this then.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright. Um. This is the first meeting uh for developing our, our new product. {gap} I'm Heather, I'm your Project Manager.
Industrial Designer: Hello. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. So um. So that was the opening.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The first thing we'll do is get acquainted with one another. If everyone could go around and explain their role and um, and their name.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. My name's Poppy. I'm the Industrial Designer for this project. Um, I'm going to be responsible for the functional design phase. Also the conceptual design and the detailed design for the final product.
Project Manager: Nice to meet you Poppy.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} My name's Tara and I'm the User Interface Designer.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I will also be responsible for the functional design phase, the conceptual design phase and the detailed design phase of the user interface design. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: Hi, I'm Genevieve. I'm the Marketing Expert. I'm an expert at marketing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um, I'll be telling you guys about the user requirement specifications for our new product. Um, I'll be doing some trend-watching in the conceptual design, and product evaluation for the design phase.
Project Manager: Alright I'm Heather and I've I said I'm your Project Manager, um Well you can pretty much read what it is that I'm doing. But um um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. And uh tool training is one thing that we're going to be doing today, um um as well as planning the project, how we're going to, uh, create this product, and, um, discuss, um, our aims and objects of this, Which brings us to our next subject,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is, um, um,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: as a team we're going to be designing and creating a new kind of remote control. Um, we want this to be a marketable product that can be trendy, um, a completely new style, so that, um, can really appeal to a, to a generation that doesn't want a simple plain kind of, uh, channel-changer. And, um, it needs to be user-friendly for, um, maybe, for an example, for people that, um, can't see the numbers as well, or, um, perhaps an ergonomic design.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So this is a television remote control?
Project Manager: Yes, it's a television remote control.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. I believe I should be taking minutes on this right now. So, alright.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Um, the way that we're going to go about this is, um, we'll have a time where we can, um come up with new ideas alone, and, and work on the project and then, um, after we've brainstormed and, and thought about, we can come together in a meeting and, and discuss what, what um, what kind of functional design we want to use. Same with conceptual design and detailed design. So, um, making sure that it, it's usable, that as a, um {disfmarker} and that it's, it's feasible to create, and uh, to come up with a concept of it want, what we want it to look like. Um, tool training. Is, is everyone, um {disfmarker} {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Got those notes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Great. Great.
Marketing: Thank you.
Project Manager: Um One thing that, uh, we're going to do is become more acquainted with the, the tools that we have access to for our project. Um, one of them is our whiteboard. And, um, as a sort of team-building moment, um, I, I'd like us to, um, try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, why that, why that should be your favourite animal. So, um, I, I'm assuming that we should do that now.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With our microphones still attached to our bodies. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Gosh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, what's my favourite animal?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do come up. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to go first. {vocalsound} Oh,
Project Manager: This is a team-building time
Industrial Designer: are we all doing it individually?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: where, um, {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Okay, let's stand up and support you {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay cool, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My favourite animal, which changes all the time, okay,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right now it is an elk.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: An elk?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: alright, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A vicious {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And it goes like {disfmarker} Yeah it's got like big antlers,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah. Looks kinda like, like it has holly growing out of its head.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from?
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: You do.
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: We have moose too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have sheep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}'Kay, um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sheep. Yeah,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: cows.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's a great elk.
Marketing: Uh-oh, we have a good artist. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That is really good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thanks.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm quite {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is my {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, very shapely.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Brilliant.
Project Manager: That's a sketching of my my elk, and it, it is my favourite animal right now,'cause it is a large beautiful majestic creature,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um, that um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In a way it looks kind of awkward, because it's on spindly legs and it uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it can really overcome harsh terrain, and although it's gorgeous it's also very dangerous, because it has um strong antlers, and uh it can really combat its enemies, even like it it's a it's an herbivore but, uh, it can really defend itself.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. Okay.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right, I'm gonna take minutes while, um, you guys express your favourite animals.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay, I'll go next. I am a big animal lover. like all sorts of animals, but for the moment I'm gonna draw a cat, in memory of my poor cat that died recently. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be a bit of a strange drawing, but never mind.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not as artistic as Heather's drawing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bit more cartoon style.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I like cats because they're so independent, and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing. Um, but that doesn't mean they're completely not sociable,'cause they enjoy interacting with humans as well, and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and, um, running around outside as well as being inside, and enjoying their food, and generally just, they just seemed so cool and {vocalsound} they just know what they're doing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I reckon they're sort of, they got it sorted. They know what they want.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Basically, that's why I like cats. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Very good. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'll rub that out. There you go. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. I think my favourite animal would be a dog, but I'm not really sure {vocalsound} how to draw one.
Industrial Designer: Ooh.
User Interface: I, I've never drawn a dog, I don't think. I'm tempted to draw a snail'cause I draw them sometimes {vocalsound} and they're really easy to draw.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Project Manager: I forget her name.
User Interface: right it's gonna be a really funny dog,'cause I'm not sure how to draw a dog.
Marketing: Tara
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or Tara.
Industrial Designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs, so I'm sure it'll represent one kind of dog. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a cartoon dog I think.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A s I don't ev Oh, oh well. {vocalsound} It's a scary cartoon dog. That {disfmarker} This,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that does not look like a dog.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks kinda like a person. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We can pretend. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's Pinocchio.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} How do you draw a dog? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god. Right. Yous know what it's supposed to be.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a dog. {vocalsound}. Um, I like dogs because, um, they're so good to humans, like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeing-eye dogs, and they're just such friendly animals. And, like they're more of a companion than cats.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I've nothing against cats. Cats don't really like me, so I can't like them.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But they're just so friendly and warm and nice animals,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} that don't look like that. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alrighty. I feel like a robot.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Um, well I guess I had the most time to think about it. I'm going to draw a butterfly, because I saw a butterfly yesterday, that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving. And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I've ever seen out in the wild, and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland. It was like, well it was a little pointier than that. At first I thought it was a dead leaf.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then it landed on the wall next to me. But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this. And then it kinda {disfmarker} there was a green, I think it was a green ring, and there was like red going out like this.
Project Manager: It's kinda like a peacock.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, it kinda was actually,'cause it was {disfmarker} This part of the body was really dull, and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever, and I'm like, wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I thought that was pretty cool. And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes. I wish I'd had my camera. So that's gonna be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. {vocalsound}
Marketing: There you go.
Project Manager: Great.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh, what do we {disfmarker} Oh.
Project Manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that?
Marketing: Yes I do. {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: Yea {vocalsound} Right.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, now that we know how to use the whiteboard,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: um, the next, um, thing we need to address is our financial department, to meet our our budget, um {disfmarker} or not meet our budget but more, um, like what kind of, uh, selling range we'll be looking at, um, wanna make this um {gap} selling price of twenty five Euros. And so we have to, um, come up with a way to, to create a, a uh remote control, where um we can {disfmarker} like the price to create it will be significantly less. Um, we'd like to, um to, uh, make fifty million Euro. I'm assuming that's what the M_ means. Um, and make it for an international market. Um, one thing we'd have to think about internationally is in the design of, um, like different kinds of, uh, V_C_R_s. Things like that, depending on which country you are. Another thing for the design team to think about. Um, we want it to cost, uh, absolute maximum of twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Marketing: Okay, so we'll have a hundred percent profit then? Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I'm bad at math.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay. {vocalsound} Um,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so now that, um, that is underway, um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it is discussion time. So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas, any um suggestions that you may have so far, a um your personal experiences with remote controls, and um, um, areas you see that, uh, could be improved in your experience with them. Does anyone have any initial thoughts?
Marketing: I find that in the dark it's often hard to know what button you're pushing.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. So what's something we could, uh, do to remedy that?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's always, where is the remote control?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking {vocalsound} device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno, some kind of alarm. You can press a button on your wall, {gap} signal,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's a great idea. It's a great idea.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'cause it always gets lost.
User Interface: Do yous not find that, um, {vocalsound} like, there's a lot of, um, buttons on your remote control, and you don't know what half of them do.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that you don't use half of them. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know what they do. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. There's some remote controls where there's kind of a hidden panel, so all those buttons that you don't really use unless you're programming or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's, that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's useful.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Marketing: So you just have like the number buttons, power button, T_V_ video button.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Alright. Anything about, um, the look of the, uh, remote control that you might have ideas about. Maybe it could be, instead of like a standard rectangular shape, it could be, um, something more interesting like {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any ideas will do that you have at this point.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can hold it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A novelty.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you know. Be like a shell-shaped remote. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here. Like, I've seen phones like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if it's a trendy original, um, aspect we're going for.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I mean, you're the designers, you c, you can um decide what kind of, um, direction you wanna go in,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but at this point in the, in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I suppose, if we're he heading to have it, like make a huge profit out of this, it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing. Like, a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than, like, a general kind of more acceptable {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But we don't wanna go towards boring,'cause that wouldn't sell either.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, hmm.
Project Manager: And the key issue here is, is being trendy and original. Um, that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Okay we have five minutes left. So, just to cover {disfmarker} We have one more thing. Um, like you can go over your ideas, of course, in your own personal times. Um, our next meeting will be in half an hour.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So you have half an hour to, uh, think about what you want to present. Or not present but bring to the meeting. Um, I_D_, whatever that stands for.
Industrial Designer: Industrial Designer.
Marketing: Interface?
Project Manager: Industrial Designer.
Industrial Designer: That's me. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, industrial.
Project Manager: I have to remember these things. Um. You'll be beginning your, your working design.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um, U_I_D_ the technical functions design will, will be worked on the next thirty minutes. Um, {vocalsound} maybe how this can be achieved, and, um, we need the user requirements from the manag Marketing Expert.
Marketing: Marketing Expert. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, you will get specific instructions, um, of what to do in the next half an hour. And I'll see you in half an hour, okay?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: {gap} | Marketing first talked about the fact that it was often hard to see the buttons in the dark. Industrial Designer followed by pointing out that remotes tend to go missing a lot, and thus a tracking device would be really helpful. User Interface then proposed that there are too many unnecessary buttons on a current remote, and a hidden panel for less used buttons would be useful. Project Manager further suggested that their remote could be some other shape instead of the standard rectangular, while the team reminded her that their product must be both novel and universally acceptable. | qmsum |
What new functions could their remote have based on the team's brainstorming process?
Project Manager: Alright, that did nothing. Okay. Welcome to the meeting everyone. Just gonna attempt to make this into a slide show. Sorry guys.
Marketing: You may have to do the function F_ eight thing.
Project Manager: I did. Twice.
Marketing: Oh, okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This'll just take a moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay okay {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or it won't.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we'll have to deal with it like this then.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright. Um. This is the first meeting uh for developing our, our new product. {gap} I'm Heather, I'm your Project Manager.
Industrial Designer: Hello. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. So um. So that was the opening.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The first thing we'll do is get acquainted with one another. If everyone could go around and explain their role and um, and their name.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. My name's Poppy. I'm the Industrial Designer for this project. Um, I'm going to be responsible for the functional design phase. Also the conceptual design and the detailed design for the final product.
Project Manager: Nice to meet you Poppy.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} My name's Tara and I'm the User Interface Designer.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I will also be responsible for the functional design phase, the conceptual design phase and the detailed design phase of the user interface design. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: Hi, I'm Genevieve. I'm the Marketing Expert. I'm an expert at marketing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um, I'll be telling you guys about the user requirement specifications for our new product. Um, I'll be doing some trend-watching in the conceptual design, and product evaluation for the design phase.
Project Manager: Alright I'm Heather and I've I said I'm your Project Manager, um Well you can pretty much read what it is that I'm doing. But um um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. And uh tool training is one thing that we're going to be doing today, um um as well as planning the project, how we're going to, uh, create this product, and, um, discuss, um, our aims and objects of this, Which brings us to our next subject,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is, um, um,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: as a team we're going to be designing and creating a new kind of remote control. Um, we want this to be a marketable product that can be trendy, um, a completely new style, so that, um, can really appeal to a, to a generation that doesn't want a simple plain kind of, uh, channel-changer. And, um, it needs to be user-friendly for, um, maybe, for an example, for people that, um, can't see the numbers as well, or, um, perhaps an ergonomic design.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So this is a television remote control?
Project Manager: Yes, it's a television remote control.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. I believe I should be taking minutes on this right now. So, alright.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Um, the way that we're going to go about this is, um, we'll have a time where we can, um come up with new ideas alone, and, and work on the project and then, um, after we've brainstormed and, and thought about, we can come together in a meeting and, and discuss what, what um, what kind of functional design we want to use. Same with conceptual design and detailed design. So, um, making sure that it, it's usable, that as a, um {disfmarker} and that it's, it's feasible to create, and uh, to come up with a concept of it want, what we want it to look like. Um, tool training. Is, is everyone, um {disfmarker} {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Got those notes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Great. Great.
Marketing: Thank you.
Project Manager: Um One thing that, uh, we're going to do is become more acquainted with the, the tools that we have access to for our project. Um, one of them is our whiteboard. And, um, as a sort of team-building moment, um, I, I'd like us to, um, try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, why that, why that should be your favourite animal. So, um, I, I'm assuming that we should do that now.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With our microphones still attached to our bodies. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Gosh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, what's my favourite animal?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do come up. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to go first. {vocalsound} Oh,
Project Manager: This is a team-building time
Industrial Designer: are we all doing it individually?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: where, um, {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Okay, let's stand up and support you {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay cool, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My favourite animal, which changes all the time, okay,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right now it is an elk.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: An elk?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: alright, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A vicious {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And it goes like {disfmarker} Yeah it's got like big antlers,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah. Looks kinda like, like it has holly growing out of its head.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from?
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: You do.
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: We have moose too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have sheep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}'Kay, um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sheep. Yeah,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: cows.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's a great elk.
Marketing: Uh-oh, we have a good artist. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That is really good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thanks.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm quite {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is my {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, very shapely.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Brilliant.
Project Manager: That's a sketching of my my elk, and it, it is my favourite animal right now,'cause it is a large beautiful majestic creature,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um, that um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In a way it looks kind of awkward, because it's on spindly legs and it uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it can really overcome harsh terrain, and although it's gorgeous it's also very dangerous, because it has um strong antlers, and uh it can really combat its enemies, even like it it's a it's an herbivore but, uh, it can really defend itself.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. Okay.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right, I'm gonna take minutes while, um, you guys express your favourite animals.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay, I'll go next. I am a big animal lover. like all sorts of animals, but for the moment I'm gonna draw a cat, in memory of my poor cat that died recently. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be a bit of a strange drawing, but never mind.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not as artistic as Heather's drawing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bit more cartoon style.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I like cats because they're so independent, and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing. Um, but that doesn't mean they're completely not sociable,'cause they enjoy interacting with humans as well, and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and, um, running around outside as well as being inside, and enjoying their food, and generally just, they just seemed so cool and {vocalsound} they just know what they're doing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I reckon they're sort of, they got it sorted. They know what they want.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Basically, that's why I like cats. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Very good. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'll rub that out. There you go. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. I think my favourite animal would be a dog, but I'm not really sure {vocalsound} how to draw one.
Industrial Designer: Ooh.
User Interface: I, I've never drawn a dog, I don't think. I'm tempted to draw a snail'cause I draw them sometimes {vocalsound} and they're really easy to draw.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Project Manager: I forget her name.
User Interface: right it's gonna be a really funny dog,'cause I'm not sure how to draw a dog.
Marketing: Tara
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or Tara.
Industrial Designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs, so I'm sure it'll represent one kind of dog. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a cartoon dog I think.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A s I don't ev Oh, oh well. {vocalsound} It's a scary cartoon dog. That {disfmarker} This,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that does not look like a dog.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks kinda like a person. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We can pretend. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's Pinocchio.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} How do you draw a dog? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god. Right. Yous know what it's supposed to be.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a dog. {vocalsound}. Um, I like dogs because, um, they're so good to humans, like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeing-eye dogs, and they're just such friendly animals. And, like they're more of a companion than cats.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I've nothing against cats. Cats don't really like me, so I can't like them.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But they're just so friendly and warm and nice animals,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} that don't look like that. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alrighty. I feel like a robot.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Um, well I guess I had the most time to think about it. I'm going to draw a butterfly, because I saw a butterfly yesterday, that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving. And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I've ever seen out in the wild, and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland. It was like, well it was a little pointier than that. At first I thought it was a dead leaf.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then it landed on the wall next to me. But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this. And then it kinda {disfmarker} there was a green, I think it was a green ring, and there was like red going out like this.
Project Manager: It's kinda like a peacock.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, it kinda was actually,'cause it was {disfmarker} This part of the body was really dull, and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever, and I'm like, wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I thought that was pretty cool. And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes. I wish I'd had my camera. So that's gonna be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. {vocalsound}
Marketing: There you go.
Project Manager: Great.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh, what do we {disfmarker} Oh.
Project Manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that?
Marketing: Yes I do. {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: Yea {vocalsound} Right.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, now that we know how to use the whiteboard,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: um, the next, um, thing we need to address is our financial department, to meet our our budget, um {disfmarker} or not meet our budget but more, um, like what kind of, uh, selling range we'll be looking at, um, wanna make this um {gap} selling price of twenty five Euros. And so we have to, um, come up with a way to, to create a, a uh remote control, where um we can {disfmarker} like the price to create it will be significantly less. Um, we'd like to, um to, uh, make fifty million Euro. I'm assuming that's what the M_ means. Um, and make it for an international market. Um, one thing we'd have to think about internationally is in the design of, um, like different kinds of, uh, V_C_R_s. Things like that, depending on which country you are. Another thing for the design team to think about. Um, we want it to cost, uh, absolute maximum of twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Marketing: Okay, so we'll have a hundred percent profit then? Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I'm bad at math.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay. {vocalsound} Um,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so now that, um, that is underway, um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it is discussion time. So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas, any um suggestions that you may have so far, a um your personal experiences with remote controls, and um, um, areas you see that, uh, could be improved in your experience with them. Does anyone have any initial thoughts?
Marketing: I find that in the dark it's often hard to know what button you're pushing.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. So what's something we could, uh, do to remedy that?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's always, where is the remote control?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking {vocalsound} device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno, some kind of alarm. You can press a button on your wall, {gap} signal,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's a great idea. It's a great idea.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'cause it always gets lost.
User Interface: Do yous not find that, um, {vocalsound} like, there's a lot of, um, buttons on your remote control, and you don't know what half of them do.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that you don't use half of them. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know what they do. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. There's some remote controls where there's kind of a hidden panel, so all those buttons that you don't really use unless you're programming or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's, that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's useful.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Marketing: So you just have like the number buttons, power button, T_V_ video button.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Alright. Anything about, um, the look of the, uh, remote control that you might have ideas about. Maybe it could be, instead of like a standard rectangular shape, it could be, um, something more interesting like {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any ideas will do that you have at this point.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can hold it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A novelty.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you know. Be like a shell-shaped remote. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here. Like, I've seen phones like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if it's a trendy original, um, aspect we're going for.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I mean, you're the designers, you c, you can um decide what kind of, um, direction you wanna go in,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but at this point in the, in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I suppose, if we're he heading to have it, like make a huge profit out of this, it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing. Like, a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than, like, a general kind of more acceptable {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But we don't wanna go towards boring,'cause that wouldn't sell either.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, hmm.
Project Manager: And the key issue here is, is being trendy and original. Um, that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Okay we have five minutes left. So, just to cover {disfmarker} We have one more thing. Um, like you can go over your ideas, of course, in your own personal times. Um, our next meeting will be in half an hour.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So you have half an hour to, uh, think about what you want to present. Or not present but bring to the meeting. Um, I_D_, whatever that stands for.
Industrial Designer: Industrial Designer.
Marketing: Interface?
Project Manager: Industrial Designer.
Industrial Designer: That's me. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, industrial.
Project Manager: I have to remember these things. Um. You'll be beginning your, your working design.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um, U_I_D_ the technical functions design will, will be worked on the next thirty minutes. Um, {vocalsound} maybe how this can be achieved, and, um, we need the user requirements from the manag Marketing Expert.
Marketing: Marketing Expert. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, you will get specific instructions, um, of what to do in the next half an hour. And I'll see you in half an hour, okay?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: {gap} | One function could be to let the buttons be distinguishable even in the dark, so that one could use the remote whether there was light or not. Another function could be to track the remote when it goes lost, probably realized through some kind of alarm on the remote and a button installed somewhere else. One last proposed function was to design a hidden panel for the remote, containing all the less used buttons so that they wouldn't take up too much space on the main panel and confuse the user. | qmsum |
When brainstorming, what was the team's opinion on giving the remote a novel shape?
Project Manager: Alright, that did nothing. Okay. Welcome to the meeting everyone. Just gonna attempt to make this into a slide show. Sorry guys.
Marketing: You may have to do the function F_ eight thing.
Project Manager: I did. Twice.
Marketing: Oh, okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This'll just take a moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay okay {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or it won't.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we'll have to deal with it like this then.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright. Um. This is the first meeting uh for developing our, our new product. {gap} I'm Heather, I'm your Project Manager.
Industrial Designer: Hello. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. So um. So that was the opening.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The first thing we'll do is get acquainted with one another. If everyone could go around and explain their role and um, and their name.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. My name's Poppy. I'm the Industrial Designer for this project. Um, I'm going to be responsible for the functional design phase. Also the conceptual design and the detailed design for the final product.
Project Manager: Nice to meet you Poppy.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} My name's Tara and I'm the User Interface Designer.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I will also be responsible for the functional design phase, the conceptual design phase and the detailed design phase of the user interface design. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: Hi, I'm Genevieve. I'm the Marketing Expert. I'm an expert at marketing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um, I'll be telling you guys about the user requirement specifications for our new product. Um, I'll be doing some trend-watching in the conceptual design, and product evaluation for the design phase.
Project Manager: Alright I'm Heather and I've I said I'm your Project Manager, um Well you can pretty much read what it is that I'm doing. But um um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. And uh tool training is one thing that we're going to be doing today, um um as well as planning the project, how we're going to, uh, create this product, and, um, discuss, um, our aims and objects of this, Which brings us to our next subject,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is, um, um,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: as a team we're going to be designing and creating a new kind of remote control. Um, we want this to be a marketable product that can be trendy, um, a completely new style, so that, um, can really appeal to a, to a generation that doesn't want a simple plain kind of, uh, channel-changer. And, um, it needs to be user-friendly for, um, maybe, for an example, for people that, um, can't see the numbers as well, or, um, perhaps an ergonomic design.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So this is a television remote control?
Project Manager: Yes, it's a television remote control.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. I believe I should be taking minutes on this right now. So, alright.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Um, the way that we're going to go about this is, um, we'll have a time where we can, um come up with new ideas alone, and, and work on the project and then, um, after we've brainstormed and, and thought about, we can come together in a meeting and, and discuss what, what um, what kind of functional design we want to use. Same with conceptual design and detailed design. So, um, making sure that it, it's usable, that as a, um {disfmarker} and that it's, it's feasible to create, and uh, to come up with a concept of it want, what we want it to look like. Um, tool training. Is, is everyone, um {disfmarker} {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Got those notes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Great. Great.
Marketing: Thank you.
Project Manager: Um One thing that, uh, we're going to do is become more acquainted with the, the tools that we have access to for our project. Um, one of them is our whiteboard. And, um, as a sort of team-building moment, um, I, I'd like us to, um, try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, why that, why that should be your favourite animal. So, um, I, I'm assuming that we should do that now.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With our microphones still attached to our bodies. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Gosh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, what's my favourite animal?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do come up. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to go first. {vocalsound} Oh,
Project Manager: This is a team-building time
Industrial Designer: are we all doing it individually?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: where, um, {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Okay, let's stand up and support you {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay cool, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My favourite animal, which changes all the time, okay,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right now it is an elk.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: An elk?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: alright, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A vicious {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And it goes like {disfmarker} Yeah it's got like big antlers,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah. Looks kinda like, like it has holly growing out of its head.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from?
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: You do.
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: We have moose too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have sheep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}'Kay, um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sheep. Yeah,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: cows.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's a great elk.
Marketing: Uh-oh, we have a good artist. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That is really good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thanks.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm quite {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is my {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, very shapely.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Brilliant.
Project Manager: That's a sketching of my my elk, and it, it is my favourite animal right now,'cause it is a large beautiful majestic creature,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um, that um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In a way it looks kind of awkward, because it's on spindly legs and it uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it can really overcome harsh terrain, and although it's gorgeous it's also very dangerous, because it has um strong antlers, and uh it can really combat its enemies, even like it it's a it's an herbivore but, uh, it can really defend itself.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. Okay.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right, I'm gonna take minutes while, um, you guys express your favourite animals.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay, I'll go next. I am a big animal lover. like all sorts of animals, but for the moment I'm gonna draw a cat, in memory of my poor cat that died recently. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be a bit of a strange drawing, but never mind.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not as artistic as Heather's drawing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bit more cartoon style.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I like cats because they're so independent, and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing. Um, but that doesn't mean they're completely not sociable,'cause they enjoy interacting with humans as well, and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and, um, running around outside as well as being inside, and enjoying their food, and generally just, they just seemed so cool and {vocalsound} they just know what they're doing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I reckon they're sort of, they got it sorted. They know what they want.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Basically, that's why I like cats. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Very good. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'll rub that out. There you go. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. I think my favourite animal would be a dog, but I'm not really sure {vocalsound} how to draw one.
Industrial Designer: Ooh.
User Interface: I, I've never drawn a dog, I don't think. I'm tempted to draw a snail'cause I draw them sometimes {vocalsound} and they're really easy to draw.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Project Manager: I forget her name.
User Interface: right it's gonna be a really funny dog,'cause I'm not sure how to draw a dog.
Marketing: Tara
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or Tara.
Industrial Designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs, so I'm sure it'll represent one kind of dog. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a cartoon dog I think.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A s I don't ev Oh, oh well. {vocalsound} It's a scary cartoon dog. That {disfmarker} This,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that does not look like a dog.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks kinda like a person. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We can pretend. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's Pinocchio.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} How do you draw a dog? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god. Right. Yous know what it's supposed to be.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a dog. {vocalsound}. Um, I like dogs because, um, they're so good to humans, like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeing-eye dogs, and they're just such friendly animals. And, like they're more of a companion than cats.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I've nothing against cats. Cats don't really like me, so I can't like them.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But they're just so friendly and warm and nice animals,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} that don't look like that. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alrighty. I feel like a robot.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Um, well I guess I had the most time to think about it. I'm going to draw a butterfly, because I saw a butterfly yesterday, that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving. And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I've ever seen out in the wild, and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland. It was like, well it was a little pointier than that. At first I thought it was a dead leaf.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then it landed on the wall next to me. But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this. And then it kinda {disfmarker} there was a green, I think it was a green ring, and there was like red going out like this.
Project Manager: It's kinda like a peacock.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, it kinda was actually,'cause it was {disfmarker} This part of the body was really dull, and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever, and I'm like, wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I thought that was pretty cool. And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes. I wish I'd had my camera. So that's gonna be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Very nice. {vocalsound}
Marketing: There you go.
Project Manager: Great.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh, what do we {disfmarker} Oh.
Project Manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that?
Marketing: Yes I do. {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: Yea {vocalsound} Right.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, now that we know how to use the whiteboard,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: um, the next, um, thing we need to address is our financial department, to meet our our budget, um {disfmarker} or not meet our budget but more, um, like what kind of, uh, selling range we'll be looking at, um, wanna make this um {gap} selling price of twenty five Euros. And so we have to, um, come up with a way to, to create a, a uh remote control, where um we can {disfmarker} like the price to create it will be significantly less. Um, we'd like to, um to, uh, make fifty million Euro. I'm assuming that's what the M_ means. Um, and make it for an international market. Um, one thing we'd have to think about internationally is in the design of, um, like different kinds of, uh, V_C_R_s. Things like that, depending on which country you are. Another thing for the design team to think about. Um, we want it to cost, uh, absolute maximum of twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Marketing: Okay, so we'll have a hundred percent profit then? Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I'm bad at math.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay. {vocalsound} Um,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so now that, um, that is underway, um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it is discussion time. So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas, any um suggestions that you may have so far, a um your personal experiences with remote controls, and um, um, areas you see that, uh, could be improved in your experience with them. Does anyone have any initial thoughts?
Marketing: I find that in the dark it's often hard to know what button you're pushing.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. So what's something we could, uh, do to remedy that?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's always, where is the remote control?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking {vocalsound} device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno, some kind of alarm. You can press a button on your wall, {gap} signal,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's a great idea. It's a great idea.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'cause it always gets lost.
User Interface: Do yous not find that, um, {vocalsound} like, there's a lot of, um, buttons on your remote control, and you don't know what half of them do.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that you don't use half of them. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know what they do. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. There's some remote controls where there's kind of a hidden panel, so all those buttons that you don't really use unless you're programming or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's, that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's useful.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Marketing: So you just have like the number buttons, power button, T_V_ video button.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Alright. Anything about, um, the look of the, uh, remote control that you might have ideas about. Maybe it could be, instead of like a standard rectangular shape, it could be, um, something more interesting like {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any ideas will do that you have at this point.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can hold it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A novelty.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you know. Be like a shell-shaped remote. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here. Like, I've seen phones like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if it's a trendy original, um, aspect we're going for.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I mean, you're the designers, you c, you can um decide what kind of, um, direction you wanna go in,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but at this point in the, in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I suppose, if we're he heading to have it, like make a huge profit out of this, it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing. Like, a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than, like, a general kind of more acceptable {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But we don't wanna go towards boring,'cause that wouldn't sell either.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, hmm.
Project Manager: And the key issue here is, is being trendy and original. Um, that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Okay we have five minutes left. So, just to cover {disfmarker} We have one more thing. Um, like you can go over your ideas, of course, in your own personal times. Um, our next meeting will be in half an hour.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So you have half an hour to, uh, think about what you want to present. Or not present but bring to the meeting. Um, I_D_, whatever that stands for.
Industrial Designer: Industrial Designer.
Marketing: Interface?
Project Manager: Industrial Designer.
Industrial Designer: That's me. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, industrial.
Project Manager: I have to remember these things. Um. You'll be beginning your, your working design.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um, U_I_D_ the technical functions design will, will be worked on the next thirty minutes. Um, {vocalsound} maybe how this can be achieved, and, um, we need the user requirements from the manag Marketing Expert.
Marketing: Marketing Expert. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, you will get specific instructions, um, of what to do in the next half an hour. And I'll see you in half an hour, okay?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: {gap} | The idea of giving the remote a novel shape instead of the standard rectangular was first raised by Project Manager. Marketing proposed a possible shell shape for the remote. Industrial checked whether they were going into novelty factors because the remote still had to be universally acceptable if they wanted it to sell. Yet it couldn't be too boring, so it would be key for the team to figure out a way for the remote to be trendy and original, but at the same time not too outrageous. | qmsum |
Summarize the team's discussion and decision on the energy source of the remote.
Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first?
Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now.
Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off?
Marketing: Yeah {gap}.
Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap}
Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply.
Marketing: Yes. Exactly.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: So we can go to next.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to
Project Manager: Mm. Mm.
Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean.
Project Manager: Right. Yes.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th
Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend,
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months,
Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker}
Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now.
Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation.
Marketing: Okay. Awesome.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it.
Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide?
Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Op mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready?
User Interface: Okay hang on.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Which one is it?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Interface concepts, no?
Project Manager: Interface concepts new.
User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Y
User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other.
Project Manager: Sorry?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over.
Project Manager: Oh okay.
User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}.
Project Manager: Oh there we go.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide.
Project Manager: Sure.
User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children.
Marketing: That's cute.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this.
Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: I have four of those remotes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay.
User Interface: That's it.
Project Manager: Great job.
Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Whoo.
Project Manager: What's the title?
Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design.
Project Manager: Got it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: So next slide, please.
Project Manager: Interesting.
Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood.
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker}
Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium.
Marketing: What is that?
Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide.
Project Manager: No, okay.
Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay. Alright,
Industrial Designer: And that's all I got.
Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we?
User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before,
Project Manager: Sure.
User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um.
Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier.
User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised,
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this.
Project Manager: Right. Right.
Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options.
User Interface: Right,
Marketing: So that way the remote reads it.
User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy,
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say.
Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm. Programme.
Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip.
Marketing: Technology.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway.
Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: the better it'll sell.
Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost.
Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier?
Marketing: Oh the base, yeah.
Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries?
Industrial Designer: I think the p
User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_.
Marketing: W
Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want
Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this,
Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes.
User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons.
Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever,
User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier?
Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that.
Industrial Designer: That's true.
Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: So i That's the other thing,
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period?
Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size.
User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size.
Marketing: Right.
Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: So we sh
Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A battery like this guy.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote?
Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced.
Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: I'm a away from the base.
Project Manager: bigger and the base.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is,
User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash.
User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt.
Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of?
Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option.
Marketing: Yeah wood.
Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, titanium s
Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead.
User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that.
Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: However,
Project Manager: What would you recommend?
Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium,
User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak.
User Interface: The selling point, yeah.
Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Are we restricted by this?
Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm
Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker}
User Interface: Twenty five Euros
Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan.
Marketing: Good plan.
Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials?
Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so,
Marketing: Oh.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, who knows.
Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it?
Marketing: O or we could like take off this.
Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe,
Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case.
Project Manager: if they wanted.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options.
Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Okay.
Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic.
Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy?
Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker}
User Interface: A tracker, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like,
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing.
Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech.
User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me.
User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off.
Project Manager: Oh dear.
Marketing: Oh,
User Interface: So it became highly irritating.
Marketing: then maybe voice
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better.
Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good.
Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right?
Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder.
Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: But then it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, alright.
User Interface: Hmm. Okay.
Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Oh, brilliant then.
Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way?
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Marketing: Yeah, good point.
Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_?
Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter.
Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean more more come in a package.
User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries.
Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too.
Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years.
Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody?
Marketing: That's a good point.
User Interface: As long as we sell it with it.
Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it,
User Interface: Right, that's what I meant.
Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk.
Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting.
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: We still have one more meeting.
Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design.
User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like.
Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial,
User Interface: Um.
Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle.
Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Oh, that's true.
User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it?
Marketing: Good point.
Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean.
Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful.
Project Manager: I think so.
Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top?
Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay.
Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker}
Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down.
User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Volume or channel.
User Interface: Which?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know.
Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides.
User Interface: Do we have both sides?
Project Manager: Can we?
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then,
Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know.
Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy.
User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side.
Marketing: {gap} have buttons.
Project Manager: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that.
Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas?
User Interface: Um what colour?
Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available.
User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers,
User Interface: Which button?
Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea.
Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: They're not titanium.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: What are your thoughts?
Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey,
Project Manager: Gun-metal gray.
Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black.
Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button.
Project Manager: Why?
Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound}
User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: On the back?
User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: But we want it to be seen.
Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker}
User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it.
Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker}
Marketing: We need it to be seen.
Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery.
User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I can find it again.
User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide.
Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept?
User Interface: Interface, yeah.
Project Manager: This one?
User Interface: Yeah. Um.
Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top.
Project Manager: Mm
User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in.
Project Manager: Okay, yes
User Interface: If c you envisioning it?
Project Manager: yes.
User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons,
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened.
Marketing: Right.
User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones?
Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow.
User Interface: Yellow.
Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons.
User Interface: Oh, that one.
Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up.
Marketing: Mm yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before?
Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right?
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh.
User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting.
Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh. | User Interface pointed out that if the remote was small, it would not go well with a base. The team then decided on a single smaller remote instead of a bigger one with a base, and a locating device would sufficiently prevent the remote from being lost. In terms of the battery, Industrial Designer suggested one small lithium battery instead of double A's or triple A's. An initial lithium battery could be sold with the remote, while subsequent replacements would be bought separately. With this suggestion in mind, the team decided to come back to it in the next meeting. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry.
Industrial Designer: Um p there we go.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay,
Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up.
Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep.
Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much?
Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip.
Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed,
Project Manager: Right,
Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form,
Project Manager: okay.
Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that?
User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um
Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick.
User Interface: and that w
Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit,
User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay.
Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it?
Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah.
Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive,
Industrial Designer: Yes, as well.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros.
Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh decide.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts?
User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Would {disfmarker}
User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead.
Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: Oh yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Hm.
User Interface: {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing.
Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm, mm.
User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it.
Project Manager: Mm, right, okay.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so.
Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh technologically innovative.
Project Manager: Right, okay, so.
Industrial Designer: No,
Project Manager: Fine. Okay.
Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm.
Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh
Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah.
User Interface: I think so.
Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No?
Industrial Designer: Uh nope,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it.
Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see.
Project Manager: Mm. Oh good.
User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work?
Project Manager: Mm yeah,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it.
Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep.
User Interface: Okay. Okay,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual.
Project Manager: Mm, yeah.
User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here,
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs,
Project Manager: Alright.
User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side,
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls?
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine.
User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down
Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good.
User Interface: and then the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: this is my great little drawing.
Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Y yes, yes.
Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time.
Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel.
Marketing: D
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with.
Project Manager: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker}
User Interface: That was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change
User Interface: Um well
Project Manager: of one sort.
User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume,
Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: but what what do you guys think?
Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker}
User Interface: We could {disfmarker}
Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah.
Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers.
Project Manager: Fingers,
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling,
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different,
User Interface: B
Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two.
Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh
User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along.
Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: okay, fine.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm right.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Here we go.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh.
Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah,
Project Manager: What?
Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long.
Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it
Industrial Designer: yeah.
Project Manager: Uh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah.
User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh.
Industrial Designer: but yeah.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Wh
Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product.
Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah.
Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm.
User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that.
User Interface: So um
Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers
User Interface: like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing?
Project Manager: S
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah,
User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples.
Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection
User Interface: So f
Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah.
Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true.
Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from.
Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right.
Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah, that's true.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So,
User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Right.
Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah.
Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly.
Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right,
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture?
Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um this is fashionable.
Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: with {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Oh yeah.
Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those.
Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it,
Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b
Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour
User Interface: like an {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: yeah. Uh no
Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour.
Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}.
Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well n
Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah.
User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had.
Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe.
Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though
User Interface: Kind of a c
Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip.
Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse,
Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah.
User Interface: Sort of a combination.
Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it.
User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top
User Interface: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle
User Interface: then wider up here.
Industrial Designer: an yeah.
User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm.
User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool.
User Interface: What do you guys think about that?
Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's a very good point.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: It is a very good point.
Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that
Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it,
Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque,
User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice.
Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um.
Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing.
Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w
Industrial Designer: Bu Mm.
Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um.
Marketing: Hmm yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: and and sc
Marketing: that's a good idea.
Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons
User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup
Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available.
User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}
User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume.
Project Manager: Uh uh uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display?
Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display
Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay.
User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah.
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu
User Interface: Yeah, and then y
Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah.
Marketing: Well I mean
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
User Interface: Yeah, press that is t
Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though,
User Interface: yeah, that might work.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm.
User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select.
Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: You know what I mean?
Marketing: Uh yeah.
Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting,
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool.
Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete,
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake.
Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course.
Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be
Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for
Marketing: long term.
Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um.
Marketing: And we're having a custom chip?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um.
Marketing: And interchangeable case?
Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new.
Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm.
Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better.
Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant.
Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, I think so too.
Marketing: Cool.
User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel,
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: And the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current,
Marketing: As wide as possible.
Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um.
Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah.
User Interface: Like this or like this.
Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm.
Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep.
Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer:'Kay. | This is the third meeting of the design group. Project Manager raised the question left over from the last meeting. That is, what kind of energy source should be used. Industrial Designer preferred a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery, but Project Manager rejected and decided to use a long-term battery in light of the production cost. Then Industrial Designer described the advantages and disadvantages of custom-designed chips and chips off the shelf. Due to the significance of technological innovation, the team decided to choose the former. After discussion, the team agreed that they needed buttons for channel change, power, menu and volume, and proposed to add a slide button. In terms of the appearance design, Marketing proposed to follow the fashion and use a spongy material. In order to keep up with the changes in fashion, the team recommended interchangeable covers. | qmsum |
What were the resolutions in the meeting?
Grad B: Sorry. Mental {disfmarker} mental Palm Pilot. Right. Hence {pause} no problem.
Grad F: Let's see. So. What? I'm supposed to be on channel five? Her. Nope. Doesn't seem to be,
Grad B: Hello {pause} I'm channel one.
Grad F: yeah.
Grad D:
Grad E: What does your thing say on the back?
Grad D: Testing.
Grad F: Nnn, five. Alright, I'm five.
Grad D: Sibilance. Sibilance. {comment} {pause} Three, three. I am three.
Grad B: Eh.
Grad D: See, that matches the seat up there. So.
Grad F: Yeah, well, I g guess {pause} it's coming up then, or {disfmarker}
Grad D: Cuz it's {disfmarker} That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one. Ergo, the classic off - by - one error.
Grad B: But mine is correct.
Grad D: Is it?
Grad E: No.
Grad B: It's one. Channel one.
Grad D: Your mike {pause} number {pause} is what we're t
Grad E: Look at the back.
Grad B: Oh, oh, oh! Oh.
Grad D: Ho!
Grad B: So {disfmarker}
Grad D: I've bested you again, Nancy.
Grad B: But your p No, but the paper's correct.
Grad D: The paper is correct.
Grad B: Look at the paper.
Grad D: I didn't det I was saying the microphone, not the paper.
Professor C: Nnn,
Grad B: Oh.
Professor C: it's n
Grad B: OK.
Professor C: It's always offset. Yeah.
Grad B: Yes, you've bested me again. That's how I think of our continuing interaction. Damn! Foiled again!
Grad D: So is Keith showing up? He's talking with George right now. Uh, is he gonna get a rip {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} rip himself away from {disfmarker} from that?
Grad B: He'll probably come later.
Professor C: What {disfmarker} He - he he's probably not, is my guess.
Grad D: Oh, then it's just gonna be the five of us?
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad E: Well, he {disfmarker} he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four. But {pause} you know, that was before he knew about that George lecture probably.
Professor C: Right. This {disfmarker} this is not {disfmarker} It's not bad for the project if Keith is talking to George. OK. So my suggestion is we just
Grad B: Forge ahead.
Professor C: Forge ahead, yeah.
Grad E: Cool.
Grad B: Are you in charge?
Grad E: Sure. Um. Well, I sort of had informal talks with most of you. So, Eva just reported she's really happy about the {pause} CBT's being in the same order in the XML as in the um {disfmarker} be Java declaration format
Grad F: Yeah. The e
Grad E: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion.
Grad F: Uh, yeah. Yeah, so.
Grad E: The {disfmarker} uh, Java {disfmarker} the embedded Bayes {pause} wants to take input {disfmarker} uh, uh, a Bayes - net {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that's output by the Java Bayes for the {disfmarker} into the, uh, E Bayes input.
Grad D: Mmm.
Grad F: Actually, maybe I could try, like, emailing the guy and see if he has any something already.
Professor C: Sure.
Grad E: Hmm.
Grad F: That'd be weird, that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in {disfmarker}
Grad D: But that's some sort of conversion program?
Grad F: Yeah. Yeah. And put them into different {pause} formats. Oh {disfmarker}
Grad D: I think you should demand things from him.
Grad F: Yep, he could do that, too.
Professor C: He charges so much. Right.
Grad D: Yeah.
Professor C: No, I think it's a good idea that you may as well ask. Sure.
Grad F: Yeah.
Grad E: And, um, well {pause} pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list, I would have asked Keith how the" where is X?" {pause} hand parse is standing. Um. {pause} But we'll skip that. Uh, there's good news from Johno. The generation templates are done.
Grad D: So the trees {pause} for {disfmarker} the XML trees for the {disfmarker} for the gene for the synthesizer are written. So I just need to {pause} do the, uh {disfmarker} write a new set of {pause} tree combining rules. But I think those'll be pretty similar to the old ones. So. Just gonna be {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker}
Professor C: Oh! You were gonna send me a note about hiring {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yes.
Professor C: I didn't finish the sentence but he understood it.
Grad D: I know what he's talking about.
Professor C: OK. But Nancy doesn't.
Grad B: Hiring somebody.
Grad E: We {disfmarker} w um {disfmarker}
Grad D: The guy.
Grad E: OK, so {pause} natural language generation {pause} produces not a {disfmarker} just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but, a {pause} surface string with a syntax tree that's fed into a concept - to - speech.
Professor C: No.
Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Better.
Grad E: Now and this concept - to - speech module has {pause} certain rules on how {pause} if you get the following syntactic structure, how to map this onto prosodic rules.
Grad B: Mm - hmm. Sure. Mm - hmm.
Grad E: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite uh, the German concept uh syntax - to - prosody rules {disfmarker}
Grad B: I didn't know she spoke German.
Grad E: No, she doesn't.
Grad B: Oh, OK.
Grad E: But she speaks English.
Grad B: Oh. Rewrite the German ones into English. OK, got it.
Grad E: Into English. And um therefore {pause} the, uh {disfmarker} if it's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week, then {pause} she'll do that.
Grad B: OK, got it.
Grad D: What {pause} language is that {pause} written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me?
Grad E: Yeah. That's the LISP - type scheme.
Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme? I hope?
Grad E: No, I {disfmarker} My guess is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I asked for a commented version of that file? If we get that, then it's {pause} doable, even without getting into it, even though the Scheme li uh, stuff is really well documented in the {pause} Festival.
Grad D: Well, I guess if you're not used to functional programming, Scheme can be completely incomprehensible. Cuz, there's no {disfmarker} Like {pause} there's lots of unnamed functions
Professor C: Syntax. Yeah.
Grad D: and {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Grad D: You know?
Professor C: Anyway, it {disfmarker} We'll sort this out. Um. But anyway, send me the note and then I'll - I'll check with, uh, Morgan on the money. I {disfmarker} I don't anticipate any problem but we have to {pause} ask. Oh, so this was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} You know, on the generation thing, um if {comment} sh y she's really going to do that, then we should be able to get prosody as well. So it'll say it's nonsense with perfect intonation.
Grad D: Are we gonna {disfmarker} Can we change the voice of the {disfmarker} of the thing, because right now the voice sounds like a murderer.
Grad E: Yep. We ha we have to change the voice.
Grad B: Wh - Which one?
Grad D: The {disfmarker} the little Smarticus {disfmarker} Smarticus sounds like a murderer.
Grad B: Oh.
Grad A: That's good to know.
Grad D:" I have your reservations." Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair.
Grad E: It is {disfmarker} Uh, we have the choice between the, uh, usual Festival voices, which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they're really bad.
Grad B: Festival?
Professor C: It's the name of some program,
Grad B: Oh, oh. Got it. OK.
Professor C: the {disfmarker} the synthesizer.
Grad A: You know, the usual party voices.
Grad E: But, um
Grad B: Yeah, I know. That doesn't sound, {vocalsound} exactly right either.
Grad E: OGI has, uh, crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we're going to use {pause} that. We can still, um, d agree on a gender, if we want. So we still have male or female.
Grad B: I think {disfmarker} Well, let's just pick whatever sounds best.
Grad E: Hmm?
Grad B: Whatever sounds best.
Grad E: Uh.
Grad B: Unfortunately, probably male voices, a bit more research on.
Grad D: Does OGI stand for {disfmarker}? {comment} Original German Institute?
Professor C: Orego
Grad B: So.
Professor C: Or
Grad E: Oregon.
Grad B: Oregon Graduate Insti
Professor C: Oregon @ @ {comment} Graduate Institute
Grad D: Oh.
Grad E: Try Oregon.
Grad D: Ah.
Professor C: It turns out there's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group.
Grad B: Hmm!
Professor C: Very long.
Grad D: Hmm!
Grad E: Hmm.
Professor C: In fact, there's this guy who's basically got a joint appointment, Hynek {pause} Hermansky. He's - spends a fair amount of time here. Anyway. Leave it. Won't be a problem.
Grad E: OK. And it's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to, um learn that as of twenty minutes ago, David and I, per accident, uh managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the {disfmarker} uh, ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from {pause} one on my laptop to three.
Grad B: Mmm, that's good.
Grad D: How was this by accident?
Grad B: Yeah, I know. Tha - that's the part I didn't understand.
Grad E: Um, I suggested to try something that was really kind of {disfmarker} even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked, but it worked.
Grad B: Hmm!
Grad E: Intuition.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Will it work again,
Grad E: Maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing.
Grad B: or {disfmarker}?
Grad D: Yeah.
Grad E: OK. And, um, we'll never found out why. It - it's just like why {disfmarker} why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working?
Grad A: Hmm! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer, right?
Grad E: Which
Grad A: You know, {comment} and it's cool, it works out that way.
Grad E: Hmm. So, {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again. Yeah, that would work. OK. Um {disfmarker} I was gonna ask you where something is and what we know about that.
Grad A: Where {disfmarker} OK.
Grad B: Where the" where is" construction is.
Grad A: What {disfmarker} what thing is this?
Grad E: Where is X?
Grad A: OK.
Grad E: Oh, but by {disfmarker} Uh, we can ask, uh, did you get to read all four hundred words?
Professor C: I did.
Grad E: Was it OK? Was it?
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad D: I {disfmarker} I wa I was looking at it. It doesn't follow logically. It doesn't {disfmarker} The first paragraph doesn't seem to have any link to the second paragraph.
Grad A: And so on.
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad D: Yeah.
Grad E: Hmm. That {disfmarker}
Professor C: You know, i Yeah, it {disfmarker}
Grad D: Each paragraph is good, though. I li
Professor C: I i Yeah. Well, it it's fine.
Grad A: It was written by committee.
Professor C: Anyway. Um. But c the meeting looks like it's, it's gonna be good. So. I think it's uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah, I didn't know about it until {pause} Robert told me, like,
Professor C: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I ra I ran across it in {disfmarker} I don't even know where, you know {disfmarker} some just {disfmarker} some weird place. And, uh, yeah, I I'm surprised I didn't know about it
Grad B: Y yeah. Well, yeah. I was like, why didn't Dan tell me?
Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers, an
Grad A: Right.
Professor C: Right, or some Anyway. So {disfmarker} But anyway, yeah. I so I {disfmarker} I did see that. Oh wha Yeah. Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler, who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the, um, {disfmarker} you know, using these structured belief - nets and stuff but {pause} starting in August, that she's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we'll figure out a way for you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} you to get seriously connected with, um their group. So that's, uh {disfmarker} looks pretty good. And um {disfmarker} Yeah, I'll say it now. So, um {disfmarker} And it looks to me like {comment} we're now at a good point to do something {disfmarker} start working on something really hard. We've been so far working on things that are easy.
Grad A: Oh!
Professor C: Uh, w Which is {comment} mental spaces and uh {disfmarker} and - or {disfmarker}
Grad A: Hmm!
Grad B: It's hard. Yeah, it's hard.
Professor C: Huh?
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: It's a hard puzzle. But the other part of it is the way they connect to these, uh, probabilistic relational models. So {pause} there's all the problems that the linguists know about, about mental spaces, and the cognitive linguists know about, but then there's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets. Uh, which they call dynamic {disfmarker} they incorrectly call dynamic belief - nets.
Grad B: Mmm.
Professor C: So there's a term" dynamic belief - net" , doesn't mean that. It means time slices. And Srini used those and people use them. Uh. But one of the things I w would like to do over the next, uh, month, it may take more, {comment} is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and uh sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be, but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences. So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models, they're set up, in principle, so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other, and all that sort of stuff, so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate {pause} uh, belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate. But that's g that's, as far as I can tell, it's {disfmarker} it's putting together two real hard problems. One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and {disfmarker} and when you have a certain, uh, construction, that implies certain couplings and other couplings, you know, between let's say between the past and the present, or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it's got um, let's say one in {disfmarker} in, you know, different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs, or any of these other ones of {disfmarker} of multiple models. So um you know, in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both, uh, in a way we that, you know, th hopefully turns out to be consistent, so that the {disfmarker} Um. And sometimes it's actually easier to solve two hard problems than one
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: because they constrain each other. I mean if you've got huge ra huge range of possible choices um {disfmarker} We'll see. But anyway, so that's, um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh yeah, like uh, I solved the {disfmarker} the problem of um {disfmarker} we were talking about how do you {disfmarker} various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote" count as a noun phrase" , you know, occur as an argument of a higher construction, but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way.
Professor C: Right.
Grad A: Um, and it would take a really long time to explain it now, but I'm about to write it up this evening. I solved that at the same time as" how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase" to get something like" I the kicked dog" . Um. Did it {disfmarker} did it at once.
Professor C: That's great.
Grad A: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe it'll be a similar thing.
Grad B: Cool.
Professor C: Yeah. No, I know, I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of {disfmarker} of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some, uh, relatively clean rules, they're just not context - free trees.
Grad A: Right.
Professor C: And if we {disfmarker} if the formalism is {disfmarker} is good, then we should be able to have, you know, sort of moderate scale thing. And that by the way is {disfmarker} is, Keith, what I encouraged George to be talking with you about. Not the formalism yet
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: but the phenomena.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: The p And {disfmarker} Oh, another thing, um there was this, uh thing that Nancy agreed to in a {disfmarker} in a weak moment this morning that
Grad A: Hmm!
Grad B: I was really strong.
Grad A: Hmm!
Grad F: Hmm.
Professor C: Uh, sorry. In a {disfmarker} in a friendly moment.
Grad A: Same thing.
Professor C: Anyway, uh, that we were {disfmarker} that we're gonna try to get a uh, first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week.
Grad A: Alright.
Professor C: OK? Probably skipping the mental spaces part.
Grad B: Seems {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right. I do.
Professor C: Uh, just trying to write up essentially what {disfmarker} what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at. We've talked about it, but only the innermost inner group currently, uh,
Grad A: Mm - hmm. Knows.
Professor C: knows, uh
Grad A: OK.
Grad B: Yeah, and {disfmarker} and not even all of them really do.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: But like {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right.
Grad A: There's {disfmarker} The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno
Professor C: Well that that {disfmarker} yeah th there's one of the advantages of a document, right? ,
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: is {disfmarker} is that it actually transfers from head to head.
Grad B: Right.
Grad A: OK.
Professor C: So anyway. So um {disfmarker}
Grad B: Ah, communication!
Professor C: Huh?
Grad B: Communication.
Grad A: Hunh!
Professor C: Communication, documentation and stuff. Anyway, so, uh, with a little luck {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} l let's, let's have that as a goal anyway.
Grad A: So, uh, what was the date there?
Professor C: And {disfmarker}
Grad A: Monday or {disfmarker}? It's a Friday.
Professor C: No, no, no. No, w uh {disfmarker} we're talking about a week fr e end of next week.
Grad A: End of next week.
Grad B: But, uh, but {disfmarker} but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th
Grad A: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah.
Grad B: I mean. Anyway, w let's talk separately about how t
Grad A: Yeah, I have a busy weekend but after that {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Yeah, gung - ho.
Professor C: OK. Yeah, so {disfmarker} so someti sometime next week.
Grad A: Great,
Professor C: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that's fine.
Grad A: Mm - hmm. OK.
Professor C: You know, if you say we're {disfmarker} we're dump {disfmarker} dump {disfmarker} dump. There's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet {disfmarker} that, that's just fine.
Grad A: OK.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Grad A: But at {disfmarker} at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now.
Professor C: Right, t t if {disfmarker} to the extent that we have it, let's write it
Grad A: OK.
Professor C: and to the extent we don't, let's find out what we need to do.
Grad A: OK.
Professor C: So, uh
Grad E: Can we {disfmarker}? {vocalsound} Is it worth {pause} thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain, that involves a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a decent mental {pause} space shift {pause} or setting up {disfmarker}
Professor C: I think it is, but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with" where is the Powder - Tower?" or whatever
Grad B: Right.
Grad A: Well. Uh, what was supposed to happen? I've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones, so, um, you know, I don't have a write - up of {disfmarker} or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm, yeah. I think {disfmarker} I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative {pause} paths that we {disfmarker} two alternative ways of representing it. One is sort of a {disfmarker} has a um
Grad A: It's gone.
Grad E: um
Grad A: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic.
Grad B: One of them was th Right.
Grad E: or comes {disfmarker}
Grad B: Right.
Grad E: is resolved later. Yeah.
Grad A: I think it has to be the {disfmarker} the second case.
Grad E: Yeah.
Grad A: Um, so d'you {disfmarker} Is it clear what we're talking about here?
Grad B: I agree.
Grad A: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path.
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: So you might be {disfmarker} yeah, y And asking for directions.
Grad E: It's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um or {disfmarker} or whether the construction semantically, uh, is clearly only asking for location
Grad E: Should we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker}
Grad B: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: but pragmatically that's construed as meaning" tell me how to get there" .
Professor C: Mm - hmm. Yep.
Grad E: So {pause} assume these are two, uh, nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: Right.
Grad E: So these are either true or false and it's also just true {pause} or false. If we encounter a phrase such as" where is X?" , should that set this to true and this to true, and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely? Um, or should it just activate this, have this be false, and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means {disfmarker}?
Professor C: Uh w that's a s
Grad B: Slightly different.
Professor C: OK, so that's a {disfmarker} that's a separate issue.
Grad A: OK.
Professor C: So I a I I th I agree with you that, um, it's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every uh, pragmatic reading,
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: although there are some that will need to be there.
Grad B: Good. Mm - hmm.
Grad A: Right.
Grad B: Right.
Professor C: I mean, there there's some that {disfmarker}
Grad B: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one.
Professor C: You can't do that either.
Grad B: Right. Yeah.
Professor C: Yeah. But, you know, c um {disfmarker} almost certainly" can you pass the salt" is a construction worth noting that there is this th this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Request.
Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah.
Grad B: Very yeah.
Grad A: So right, this one is maybe in the gray area. Is it {disfmarker} is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one {disfmarker} you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever.
Grad B: Mmm.
Professor C: Ri Yeah.
Grad E: One Or in some cases, it's {disfmarker} it's quite definitely
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad E: s so that you just know {disfmarker} wanna know where it is.
Grad A: Yeah. Well the question is basically, is this conventional or conversational implicature?
Professor C: Exactly. Yeah.
Grad B: Might be, yeah.
Professor C: And I guess, see, the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it's more important to know how we would treat {disfmarker} technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B, than it is t to decide A or B r right now.
Grad A: OK, right.
Grad B: Right. Right.
Grad A: Which of that is. {comment} Yeah, OK
Grad B: Which one it is.
Grad E: Hmm.
Grad B: Cuz there will be other k examples that are one way or the other. Right.
Professor C: W we know for sure that we have to be able to do both.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: So I guess {vocalsound} In the short run, let's {disfmarker} let's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be.
Grad A: OK.
Grad E: And then the {vocalsound} we had another idea floating around um, which we wanted to, uh, get your input on, and that concerns the {disfmarker} But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it, and that's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML {pause} who is going to be visiting us, uh, the week before, uh, August and a little bit into August. And she would like to {vocalsound} apply the {pause} ontology that is, um {vocalsound} being crafted at EML. That's not the one I sent you. The one I sent you was from GMD, out of a European CRUMPET.
Professor C: It was terrible.
Grad E: Agreed. Um, and one of the reas one of the {disfmarker} those ideas was, so, back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history {pause} and it said the word" admission fee" was uh, mentioned um, it's more likely that the person actually wants to enter {pause} than just take a picture of it from the outside. Now what could imagine {disfmarker} to, you know, have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history, yeah? That's the really stupid way. Then there is the {pause} really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the, uh, middle way that I'm suggesting and that is you {disfmarker} you get X, which is whatever, the castle. The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours, that they have admission fees, they have whatever. And then, this is {disfmarker} We go via a thesaurus and look up {pause} certain linguistic surface structures {pause} that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity. We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side. But Keith suggested that a {disfmarker} a much cleaner way would be {disfmarker} is, you know, to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you {disfmarker} if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before, this just a continues to add up, you know, in th in a {disfmarker}
Grad A: So if someone mentions admission f fees, that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what's being talked about. And then when someone asks" where is X?" you've already got the {disfmarker} the Enter schema activated
Grad B: Kind of a priming
Professor C: Mm - hmm.
Grad A: and you're able to {disfmarker} to conclude on it.
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad B: priming a spreading activation
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: Right. Yeah. So that's certainly {pause} more {pause} realistic.
Grad A: Right.
Professor C: I m I mean psychologically. Now technically
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: Um
Grad D: Well, uh, is it {disfmarker} doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a {disfmarker} a thread, that you know, kept track of ho of the activity of {disfmarker} I mean, cuz it would {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thread would know what nodes {pause} like, needed to be activated, so it could just keep track of {pause} how long it's been since {pause} something's been mentioned, and {pause} automatically load it in.
Professor C: Yeah. You could do that. Um. But here's {disfmarker} here's a way {disfmarker} in th in the bl Bayes - net you could {disfmarker} you could think about it this way, that if um {pause} at the time" admissions fee" was mentioned {pause} you could increase the probability {pause} that someone wanted to enter.
Grad B: Turn prior on.
Grad D: We - yeah {disfmarker} th th that's what I wa I wasn't {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas. I was just {disfmarker}
Professor C: Fair enough, OK, but, but, in terms of the c c the current implementation {disfmarker} right? so that um
Grad B: It would already be higher in the {pause} context.
Professor C: th that th the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the conditional probability that someone {disfmarker} So at the time you mentioned it {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation.
Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah.
Professor C: It's {disfmarker} In some ways it's not as good but it's {pause} the implementation we got.
Grad A: Yeah, sure. No, I mean
Professor C: We don't have a connectionist implementation. Now {disfmarker} Now my guess is that it's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another {pause} intervening object has been mentioned.
Grad B: Yeah, relevance.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: I mean, we could look at dialo this is {disfmarker} Of course the other thing we ha we do is, is we have this data coming
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: which probably will blow all our theories,
Grad A: Yeah, right.
Professor C: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but skipping that {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but my guess is what {disfmarker} what'll probably will happen, Here's a {disfmarker} here's a proposed design. {comment} is that there're certain constructions which, uh, for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the, uh, standard way that {disfmarker} that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever, but that's sort of the most recent thing. And so it could be that {pause} when another uh, en tourist entity gets mentioned, you
Grad B: Renew
Professor C: re re essentially re - initiali you know, re - i essentially re - initialize the {pause} state.
Grad D: Mmm.
Grad B: Yeah.
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have {disfmarker} uh, you could keep track of what someone was {pause} uh saying about this and that.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: You know," I wanna go {disfmarker} in the morning
Grad A:" Here's my plan for today.
Professor C: I wanna {disfmarker}" Grad A: Here's my plan for tomorrow." Professor C: Yeah, or {disfmarker} Yeah, in the morning morning I I'm planning t to go shopping,
Grad A: hypothetically.
Professor C: in the afternoon to the Powder - Tower {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: Uh, tal so I'm talking about shopping and then you say, uh, you know, well, um" What's it cost?" or something.
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: Or {disfmarker} Anyway. So one could well imagine, but not yet.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: But I do th think that the {disfmarker} {comment} It'll turn out that it's gonna be {disfmarker} depend pretty much on whether there's been an override.
Grad E: Yeah, I mean, if {disfmarker} if you ask" how much does a train ride and {disfmarker} and cinema around the vineyards cost?" and then somebody tells you it's sixty dollars and then you say" OK How much is, uh {disfmarker} I would like to {pause} visit the {disfmarker}" {vocalsound} whatever, something completely different," then I go to, you know, Point Reyes" ,
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad E: it {disfmarker} it's not more likely that you want to enter anything, but it's, as a matter of fact, a complete rejection of entering by doing that.
Professor C: Right.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Right.
Professor C: Right.
Grad B: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something, it's only for that particular {disfmarker} It's relational, right? It's only for that particular object.
Professor C: Yeah, I th th Yeah. Well, and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the simple idea is that it's on it's only for m for the current uh, tourist e entity of instre interest.
Grad B: Yeah.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Right.
Grad E: Yeah. But that's {disfmarker} I mean this {disfmarker} this function, so, has the current object been mentioned in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} with a question about {disfmarker} concerning its {disfmarker}
Professor C: No, no. It's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} It goes the other d it goes in the other direction. Is {disfmarker} When th When the {disfmarker} this is mentioned, {pause} the uh probability of {disfmarker} of, let's say, entering changes
Grad B: Of that object. For {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Professor C: changes.
Grad B: Right.
Grad D: You could just hav uh, just basically, ob it {disfmarker} It observes an {disfmarker} er, it sets the {disfmarker} a node for" entered" or" true" or something,
Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh {disfmarker} But I think Ro - Robert's right, that to determine that, OK? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus
Grad D:" discourse enter" .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} So, if the issue is, if {disfmarker} so now th this construction has been matched and you say" OK. Does this actually have any implications for our decisions?" Then there's another piece of code {vocalsound} that presumably {pause} does that computation.
Grad B: So, sort of forward chaining in a way, rather than {pause} backward.
Professor C: Yeah. Yeah.
Grad B: OK.
Professor C: But {disfmarker} but what's Robert's saying is {disfmarker} is, and I think he's right, {comment} is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all {disfmarker} you know, all the wo Uh maybe. I'll have to think about that.
Grad B: Hmm.
Professor C: I don't know. I mean it {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} I can thi I can think of arguments in either direction on that. But somehow you want to do it.
Grad E: Mm - hmm. Well, it's just another, sort of, construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the {pause} probabilities, and - or {disfmarker}
Grad B: Guess it's like {disfmarker} I g The other thing is, whether you have a m m user model that has, you know, whatever, a current plan, whatever, plans that had been discussed, and I don't know, I mean {disfmarker}
Grad D: What {disfmarker} uh, what's the argument for putting it in the construction? Is it just that {pause} the s synonym selection is better, or {disfmarker}?
Professor C: Oh, wel Well, the ar the {disfmarker} The argument is that you're gonna have the {disfmarker} If you've recognized the word, you've recognized the word, which means you have a lexical construction for it, so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it's a uh, you know, thirty percent increase in probability of entering. You {disfmarker} So you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could invert {disfmarker} invert the whole thing, so you s you tag that information on to {pause} the lexicon
Grad D: Mmm. Oh, I see.
Professor C: since you had to recognize it anyway. That {disfmarker} that's the argument in the other direction. at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} Yeah, and this is {disfmarker}
Grad E: Even though uh the lexical construction itself {disfmarker} out {disfmarker} out of context, uh, won't do it. I mean, y you have to keep track whether the person says
Grad B: Yeah.
Grad E:" But I but I'm not interested in the opening times" is sort of a more a V type.
Professor C: Yeah there's, yeah ther there's that as well.
Grad E: Yep. Hmm. So. But, we'll {disfmarker} uh, we have time to {disfmarker} This is a s just a sidetrack, but uh I think it's also something that people have not done before, is um, sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of, uh, inferences, on whether anything relevant to the current something has been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, has crept up in the dialogue history already, or not. And, um I have the, uh {disfmarker} If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom, I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there.
Professor C: Good. OK. {comment} {vocalsound} Well, this {disfmarker} this is highly relevant to someone's thesis.
Grad E: Yes, um. That's {disfmarker} uh, I'm {disfmarker} I'm keeping on good terms with Jan.
Professor C: You've noticed that. OK.
Grad E: Yeah.
Professor C: So the point is, it's very likely that Robert's thesis is going to be along these lines,
Grad B: Oh, s
Professor C: and the local rules are if it's your thesis, you get to decide how it's done. OK. So if, you know {disfmarker} if this is {disfmarker} seriously, if this becomes part of your thesis, you can say, hey we're gonna do it this way, that's the way it's done.
Grad E: Mmm.
Grad B: Yay, it's not me. It's always me when it's someone's thesis.
Professor C: No, no, no! No, no. We've got a lot {disfmarker} we've got a lot of theses going.
Grad A: There's a few of us around now.
Grad B: Now it's not. Yay! I know it is.
Professor C: Yeah. Right.
Grad E: Well, let's {disfmarker} let's talk after Friday the twenty - ninth. Then we'll see how f f
Professor C: Right. So h he's got a th he's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor.
Grad B: Yeah, he said he's gonna f finish his thesis by then.
Grad A: Oh yeah.
Grad E: Yeah. I should try to finish it by then. Yeah.
Professor C: Oh, right.
Grad E: So.
Professor C: Um. Yeah. So I think {pause} in fact, That's the other thing. uh, this is {disfmarker} this is, speaking of hard problems, {comment} this is a very good time um, to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and {disfmarker} you know, where c where the construction per - se ends {pause} and where construal comes in,
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Grad E: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: Yeah, we've {disfmarker} we've done quite a bit of that.
Professor C: cuz this is clearly part of th
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: We've been doing quite a bit of that.
Professor C: Huh?
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: Well I said. But that's part of what the f
Grad B: We have many jobs for you, Ro - Robert.
Professor C: Yeah. Well, he's gonna need this.
Grad A: Yeah, it seems to always land in your category.
Grad B: The conclusion.
Grad A: You're lucky.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: Right. So. {vocalsound} Right. So thing {disfmarker} That's part of why we want the formalism,
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: is {disfmarker} is because th it is gonna have implicit in it
Grad E: Was I? In the room?
Grad B: No, you weren't there {pause} on purpose. Like {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad A: Made it much easier to make these decisions.
Grad B: Obviously.
Grad A: Uh.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: Right. Well I {disfmarker} That's tentative.
Grad A: Yeah. Right, right, right.
Professor C: They aren't decisions, they're ju they're just proposals.
Grad A: Yes. {vocalsound} Excuse me.
Grad B: No, they're decisions. OK.
Professor C: Yeah, that {disfmarker} That's the point, is {disfmarker} is th
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad E: Constraints. Let's call them constraints, around which one has to {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad B: Actually, yeah. {vocalsound} There's a problem with that word, too, though.
Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Anyway. But so that's that's w Yeah.
Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis. So consequently don't I get to decide then that it's Robert's job?
Professor C: No.
Grad A: Anyhow.
Professor C: Uh.
Grad B: Well, I'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center {pause} and say it's Robert's. Like.
Grad E: I've always been {pause} completely in favor of consensus decisions,
Grad B: I can {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right.
Grad E: so we'll {disfmarker} we'll find a way.
Professor C: Well, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will, but um
Grad B: I haven't. {comment} OK.
Professor C: not {disfmarker}
Grad E: It {disfmarker} it might even be {pause} interesting then to {pause} say that I should be forced to um, sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the, uh {disfmarker} out of the top hat
Professor C: Yes.
Grad E: and, um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Always good.
Professor C: Right. So
Grad E: That metaphor is not going anywhere, you know.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: Ri - No. Absolutely. So, uh, wh you had {disfmarker} you know you ha You had done one draft.
Grad E: Yes, and, um, it's {disfmarker} Ha - None of that is basically still around,
Grad B: I didn't get
Professor C: And a another draft OK.
Grad E: but it's {disfmarker}
Professor C: D i
Grad A: That's normal.
Professor C: I i
Grad B: Oh, I guess it's good I didn't read it.
Professor C: I {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I'm shocked. This is the first time I've seen a thesis proposal change. Right. Anyway, uh. {vocalsound} So.
Grad B: Really?
Professor C: But, yeah, a second {disfmarker} that would be great. So, uh, a sec I mean you're gonna need it anyway.
Grad E: Hmm.
Professor C: and
Grad E: Yeah, and I would like to d discuss it and, you know, get you guys's input
Professor C: Right.
Grad E: and make it sort of bomb - proof.
Grad B: Bomb proof!
Professor C: Yep.
Grad A: Good.
Grad E: Bullet - proof.
Grad B: Oh! Oh, OK.
Grad E: That's the word I was looking for.
Professor C: Both proof.
Grad A: Either way.
Grad B: Both.
Professor C: Right.
Grad B: Good luck. {vocalsound} Really.
Professor C: Uh So that, so th thi this {disfmarker} I mean, so this is the point, is we {disfmarker} we're going to have to cycle through this,
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is {disfmarker} is going to tell us a lot about {pause} what {pause} we think needs to be done by construal. And, um, we oughta be doing it.
Grad E: OK. Yeah, we need {disfmarker} we need some {disfmarker} Then we need to make some dates. Um.
Grad B:
Grad E: Meeting {disfmarker} regular meeting time for the summer, we really haven't found one. We did {pause} Thursdays one for a while. I just talked to Ami. It's - it's a coincidence that he can't do {disfmarker} couldn't do it today {pause} here.
Grad B: Usually, he can.
Grad E: Usually he has no real constraints.
Professor C: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday,
Grad E: So {disfmarker}
Professor C: cuz of {disfmarker} of, uh
Grad E: Yeah, it was just an exception.
Professor C: Yeah, you weren't here, but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} s uh, {disfmarker} And so, if that's OK with you,
Grad A: It's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon?
Professor C: you would {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK. It was th off this week,
Grad B: Yeah. I always thought it was staying.
Professor C: Yeah, it was th
Grad A: yeah.
Grad B: Yeah, I thought it was just this week that we were changing it.
Professor C: Right.
Grad E: Mmm. {pause} Yeah.
Professor C: OK.
Grad E: And, um. How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we {pause} have things to discuss with other people, there {disfmarker} they seem to be s tons of people around.
Professor C: The only disadvantage {pause} is that it may interfere with other
Grad E: Or {disfmarker} subgroup meetings
Professor C: s you know, other {disfmarker} other {disfmarker} No, you {disfmarker} Uh, people in this group connecting with {disfmarker} with
Grad B: Those people who {pause} happen to be around.
Professor C: those people {pause} who {disfmarker} who might not be around so much. Uh, I don't care. I I uh you know I have no fixed {disfmarker}
Grad A: To tell you the truth, I'd rath I'd, I'd {disfmarker} would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day, if possible. But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean. I don't know.
Professor C: OK.
Grad A: Whatever.
Professor C: No, that's fine. I mean that {disfmarker}
Grad E: The {disfmarker} I'd like to have them all in one day,
Grad A: Yeah, I can understand that.
Professor C: Well p
Grad E: so package them up and then {disfmarker}
Professor C: people {disfmarker} people differ in their tastes in this matter.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I'm neutral.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah. {pause} I'm always here anyway,
Grad E: It's OK, that {disfmarker}
Grad B: so {disfmarker} It doesn't matter.
Professor C: Yeah. @ @ That's {disfmarker} Me too. I'm basically {disfmarker} I'm here. So.
Grad E: Well, if {disfmarker} one {pause} sort of thing is, this room is taken at {disfmarker} after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection.
Grad B: Oh.
Grad E: So we have subjects anyway {disfmarker} Except for this week, we have subjects in here.
Grad B: Oh.
Grad E: That's why it was one.
Professor C: OK.
Grad E: So we just knew i
Grad B: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o'Grad E: No, he can.
Grad A: Oh.
Grad B: Oh, OK.
Grad E: So let's say Thursday one. But for next week, this is a bit late. So {pause} I would suggest that we need to {disfmarker} to talk {disfmarker}
Grad B: Oh, oh, OK.
Grad E: OK. About the c the {disfmarker} th
Grad B: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty? Would that {disfmarker} that be horrible?
Grad E: No. Yes.
Grad B: Oh really?
Grad E: Because, uh, this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan.
Grad B: Oh, OK. OK. You didn't tell me that. OK, that's fine.
Grad E: And the {disfmarker} s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK, OK, OK. OK. {pause} Yeah.
Grad E: So.
Grad A: Ah, yeah.
Professor C: Interesting. So you're proposing that we meet Tuesday.
Grad E: How about that?
Grad A: Next week.
Grad B: Well, we're meeting Tuesday.
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I could
Grad B: I mean we usually meet Tuesday {disfmarker} or l like, linguists {pause} um, at two.
Grad D: Would it {disfmarker}
Grad A: That's right.
Grad B: So. Do you want to meet again here bef
Grad D: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at {disfmarker} on Tuesdays?
Grad E: I mean w Well, actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday.
Grad B: Hhh. {comment} Maybe I do need a Palm Pilot.
Grad E: So there's {disfmarker} Nothing's impeding Monday anymore {pause} either.
Grad A: That doesn't apply to a {disfmarker}
Grad D: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday {disfmarker} er, take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping.
Grad E: Get a fresh start {disfmarker} Yeah, that's another s thing. Yeah. But, um. I mean, there are also usually then holidays anyways. I mean {pause} like {disfmarker} {comment} Sometimes {pause} it works out that way.
Grad B: Usually?
Grad E: So. Hmm!
Grad B: Well, I mean, the linguists'meeting {pause} i happens to be at two, but I think that's {disfmarker} I mean.
Grad A: That should be relatively flexible be
Grad B: pretty flexible, I think.
Grad A: Yeah. There's just {pause} sort of the two to four of us.
Grad B: So. The multiple meetings
Grad A: Right? Yeah. So.
Grad B: yeah.
Grad A: And, you know, of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room.
Grad B: Right. Yeah.
Grad A: So, you know, I mean.
Grad E: OK, so {pause} l forget about the b the camping thing. So let's {disfmarker} eh, any other problems w w w? But, I suggested Monday. If that's a problem for me then I shouldn't {pause} suggest it.
Grad D: Ha - ha - ha.
Professor C: OK.
Grad E: So.
Grad A: Um, all of the proposed times sound fine with me.
Grad B: Same here.
Grad E: Monday?
Professor C: OK, whate I mean {disfmarker} What I think Robert's saying is that
Grad A: Earlier in the week
Professor C: earlier we {disfmarker} At least for next week, there's a lot of stuff we want to get done,
Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah.
Professor C: so why don't we plan to meet Monday
Grad E: Mmm.
Professor C: and {pause} we'll see if we want to meet any more than that.
Grad A: OK.
Grad B: What time?
Grad E: OK.
Grad B: At o o o o one, two, three {disfmarker}?
Grad E: One, two, three? Three's too late.
Professor C: Oh, I i {pause} Yeah, I actually {disfmarker} Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday.
Grad E: Two - thirty? OK, two.
Professor C: Here I'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday.
Grad A: Sure. Sounds great. Uh, so that's the eighteenth.
Grad B: You guys will still remind me, right?
Grad D: No way!
Grad B: Y you'll come and take all the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the headph the good headphones first and then remind me.
Grad E: W why do you {disfmarker}?
Grad A: Yeah, exactly. Sorry, two PM.
Grad E: And
Grad B: Why do I have this unless I'm gonna write?
Grad E: do I get to see th uh, your formalism before {pause} that?
Grad B: Fine. Yes. Uh. Would you like to?
Grad E: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: OK. I was actually gonna work on it for tomorrow {disfmarker} like this {disfmarker} this weekend.
Grad E: I wo I would like {disfmarker} I would sort of {pause} get a {disfmarker} get a notion of what {disfmarker} what you guys have in store for me.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: Well m @ @ you know, w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put {disfmarker} This is part of what we can do Monday, if we want.
Grad B: Yeah. I OK.
Grad A: Alright.
Grad B: I mean, I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Professor C: Is some {disfmarker} some version
Grad E: OK.
Grad B: Yeah, so there was like, you know, m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version, like, everything I know.
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: And then, w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know, that {disfmarker} you know, see if they're consistent.
Grad A: Yeah. OK. Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this.
Grad B: Yes. Yeah. That's f fine with me.
Grad A: OK.
Grad B: So. I might {disfmarker} I might {disfmarker} um,
Grad E: You - y
Grad B: s You said you're busy {pause} over th until the weekend, right?
Grad A: Yeah, sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show.
Grad B: That's fine. So we might continue our email thing
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: and that might be fine, too. So, maybe I'll send you some {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um, if you have time after this I'll show you the noun phrase thing.
Grad B: OK. That would be cool. So. OK, and we'll {disfmarker} You wanna m
Grad E: So the idea is on Monday at two we'll {disfmarker} we'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions,
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: So that's OK for you {disfmarker}
Grad E: and do an on - line merging with my construal {pause} ideas.
Grad B: Sure, sure.
Grad A: Alright.
Professor C: OK.
Grad B: That's OK.
Grad E: So it won't be, like, a for semi - formal presentation of my {pause} proposal. It'll be more like towards {pause} finalizing that proposal.
Grad A: OK.
Grad B: Cuz then you'll find out more of what we're making you do.
Grad E: OK, that's fine. Yep, and then {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad D: Hmm, hmm.
Grad E: Yikes.
Grad A: Oy, {comment} deadlines.
Grad B: We'll make a presentation of your propo {comment} of your proposal.
Grad E: Perfect. Can you also write it up?
Grad B: It's like," this is what we're doing.
Professor C: Abso
Grad B: And the complement is Robert." Grad E: I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you a style file, right?
Grad B: OK.
Grad E: You just {disfmarker}
Grad B: I already sent you my fi {comment} my bib file. So.
Grad E: OK. And, um. Sounds good.
Grad A: Someday we also have to {disfmarker} we should probably talk about the other side of the" where is X" construction, which is the issue of, um, how do you simulate questions? What does the simspec look like for a question?
Grad E: Yeah.
Grad A: Because {pause} it's a little different.
Professor C: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: Yeah, now, we we w
Grad A: We had to {disfmarker} we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work.
Professor C: Great. OK. Yeah. Simspec may need {disfmarker} we may n need to re - name that.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK? So let's think of a name for {disfmarker} for whatever the {disfmarker} this intermediate structure is. Oh, we talked about semspec, for" semantic spec specification" Grad A: Mmm.
Professor C: and that seems {disfmarker} Um.
Grad A: It's more general
Professor C: You know, so it's a m minimal change.
Grad B: Only have to change one vowel. That's great.
Professor C: Yeah. Just {disfmarker}
Grad B: All the old like {vocalsound} graphs,
Professor C: Right.
Grad B: just change the {disfmarker} just, like, mark out the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Cool.
Professor C: Right, a little substi substi You know, that's what text substitution uh macros are for.
Grad A: Yeah. It's good for you.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: Anyway, uh, so let's {disfmarker} let's for the moment call it that until we think of something better.
Grad A: OK.
Professor C: And, yeah, we absolutely need to find {disfmarker} Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there, incl including the questions {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: We didn't {disfmarker} we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in {disfmarker} in uh, the semspec.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about {pause} that, too, which {disfmarker} uh, uh, it's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues, how they map onto this particular one,
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: but {disfmarker} OK, yeah, understood.
Professor C: But that's part of the formalism {disfmarker} is got to be uh, how things like that get marked.
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: W do you have data, like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You have preliminary {pause} data? Cuz I know, you know, we've been using this one easy sentence and I'm sure you guys have {disfmarker} uh, maybe you are the one who've been looking at {pause} the rest of it {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um, I
Grad B: it'd {disfmarker} it'd be useful for me, if we want to {pause} have it a little bit more data oriented.
Grad A: To tell you the truth, what I've been looking at has not been the data so far,
Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm {pause} mm - hmm.
Grad A: I just sort of said" alright let's see if I can get noun phrases and, uh, major verb co uh, constructions out of the way first." And I have not gotten them out of the way yet.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Grad A: Surprise. So, um.
Grad B: Yeah.
Grad A: So, I have not really approached a lot of the data, but I mean obviously like these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the question one, since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that, you know, I ca can try and, um run with that, you know, try and do some of the sentence constructions now. It would make sense.
Grad E: OK. Do you wanna run the indefinite pronoun idea past Jerry?
Grad B: OK.
Grad A: Oh yeah, the basic idea is that um, uh {pause} you know {disfmarker} Uh, {vocalsound} let's see {pause} if I can {pause} formulate this.
Grad E: So {pause} Mary fixed the car with a wrench.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad E: So you perform the mental sum and then, you know," who fixed the car with a wrench?" You {pause} basically are told, to {disfmarker} to do this In the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} analogously to the way you would do" someone fixed the car with a wrench" . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out {pause} what that, you know,
Grad A: Means.
Grad E: means, and then {pause} come up with that {disfmarker} so who that someone was.
Grad A: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says" and when you're done, tell me who fills that slot" or w you know.
Professor C: Mm - hmm.
Grad A: So, um. And, you know, this is sort of a nice way to do it, the idea of sort of saying that you treat {disfmarker} from the simulation point of view or whatever {disfmarker} you treat, uh, WH constructions similarly to uh, indefinite pronouns like" someone fixed the car" because {pause} lots of languages, um, have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever,
Grad B: Use actually the same one.
Grad A: and you just get intonation to tell you that it's a question. So it makes sense
Professor C: Alright, which is
Grad A: um
Professor C: Skolemization.
Grad A: Hmm?
Grad B: Mmm.
Professor C: In {disfmarker} in logic, it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it's actual Huh?
Grad B: Right. {vocalsound} Let's put a Skolem {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Skolem constant in,
Grad A: Yeah. shko
Professor C: What?
Grad A: Sure.
Grad B: yeah. Yeah. {pause} Right.
Grad A: OK.
Professor C: That - that's not {disfmarker} that's not saying it's bad,
Grad A: Right. Right. No. Of course.
Professor C: it's just that {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mmm.
Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the logicians have {disfmarker} have, uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: That's right. It makes sense from that point of view, too, which is actually better.
Grad E: come up with this
Grad A: So yeah, um. Anyway, but just that kind of thing and we'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on, but
Professor C: Good.
Grad A: Uh, no, all the focus stuff. We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know, like, what we were talking about {comment} exactly, what the object of study was.
Grad B: Um - mmm.
Grad A: So.
Professor C: Yeah. Well, if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I mean, i part of {disfmarker} of what the exercise is, t by the end of next week, is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet.
Grad A: Yeah. Yep.
Professor C: That's fine. I mean
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Grad E: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you do wanna discuss focus {pause} background and then get me into that because {disfmarker} I mean, I wo I w scientifically worked on that for {disfmarker} for almost two years.
Grad A: Yeah. OK, then certainly we will. Good.
Grad B: Yeah, you should definitely, um be on on that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe by {disfmarker} after Monday we'll {disfmarker} y you can see what things we are and aren't {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah. w We should figure out what our questions are, for example, {vocalsound} to ask you.
Grad B: Yeah. Yeah.
Grad A: So.
Grad B: OK.
Grad A: OK.
Professor C: Wel - then t Hans. Has {disfmarker} I haven't seen Hans Boas?
Grad B: He's been around.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Just maybe not today.
Professor C: OK. So has he been {disfmarker} been involved with this, or {disfmarker}?
Grad B: Eh. with us?
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah.
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad B: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily, um, Keith and {disfmarker} Keith and me, but um like in th the meeting {disfmarker} I mean, he sort of {disfmarker} I thin like the last meeting we had, I think we were all very much part of it
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: but {pause} um
Grad A: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a {pause} devil's advocate type role or something,
Grad B: but different perspec Yeah.
Grad A: like {pause}" This make {disfmarker} you know, I'm going to pretend I'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this. This makes no sense." And he'll just go off on parts of it which {pause} definitely need fixing
Grad B: Right.
Grad A: but aren't where we're at right now, so it's
Grad B: Like {disfmarker} like what you call certain things,
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: which we decided long ago we don't care that much right now.
Professor C: Right.
Grad B: But in a sense, it's good to know that he {pause} of all people {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK.
Grad B: you know, like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions, so, you know, he's like a relatively friendly linguist
Grad A: Yeah. Yeah.
Grad B: and yet a word like" constraint" causes a lot of problems. And, so. {pause} Right. So.
Professor C: OK. This is consistent with um the role I had suggested that he {disfmarker} he play,
Grad B: Ah.
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: OK, which was {pause} that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called" Towards a formal cognitive semantics" which was addressed to these linguists {pause} uh {pause} who haven't been following {pause} this stuff at all.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: So {pause} it could be that he's actually, at some level, thinking about how am I going to {pause} communicate this story {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah. Yeah.
Professor C: So, internally, we should just do {pause} whatever works,
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: cuz it's hard enough.
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: But {pause} if he g if he turns {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does {pause} connect with as many as possible of the {pause} other linguists in the world um {comment} then {disfmarker} then it becomes important to {pause} use terminology that doesn't make it hard {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Grad A: Yeah. Yeah.
Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Sure.
Professor C: I mean, it's gonna be plenty hard for {disfmarker} for people to understand it as it is,
Grad A: Yeah.
Professor C: but y y you don't want to make it worse.
Grad A: Yeah. No, right. I mean, tha that role is {disfmarker} is, uh, indispensable
Professor C: So.
Grad A: but that's not where sort of our heads were at in these meetings.
Professor C: Right.
Grad A: It was a little strange.
Professor C: Yeah, yeah. {disfmarker} No, that's fine. I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him, and I wanted t to get a feeling for that. OK.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Grad A: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly, you know.
Professor C: OK. Good.
Grad A: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view.
Grad B: I think it's good when we're {disfmarker} when we're into data and looking at the {disfmarker} some specific linguistic phenomenon {pause} in {disfmarker} in English or in German, in particular, whatever, that's great,
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: and Ben and {disfmarker} and Hans are, if {disfmarker} if anything, more {disfmarker} you know, they have more to say than, let's say, I would about some of these things.
Professor C: Right.
Grad B: But when it's like, well, w how do we capture these things, you know, I think it's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know, who have worried more about the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: Well, that's good. That's {disfmarker} I I I think that should be the {disfmarker} the core group
Grad B: s Which is fine.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Professor C: and {pause} um that's, you know, I think {pause} very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Yes. Yeah. We actually have {disfmarker} I think we have been making progress,
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: and its sort of surprising.
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I definitely get that impression. Yeah.
Grad B: You know, like {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep.
Professor C: That's great.
Grad B: Yeah. So anyone else would like uh {comment} ruin the balance of {disfmarker} Anyway.
Professor C: Well, but {disfmarker} Well. But th th then w then we have to come back to the bigger group.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Right.
Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Great. And then we're gon we're gonna {disfmarker} because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is {pause} actually implementing this stuff? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that.
Grad B: Yeah, we could talk tomorrow. I was just gonna say, though, that, for instance, there was {disfmarker} you know, out of a meeting with Johno {pause} came the suggestion that" oh, could it be that the {pause} meaning {pause} constraints really aren't used for selection?" which has sort of been implicit {pause} in the parsing {pause} strategy we talked about.
Professor C: Right.
Grad B: In which case we w we can just say that they're the effects or the bindings. Which {pause} uh, so far, in terms of like putting up all the constraints as, you know, pushing them into type constraints, the {disfmarker} when I've, you know, propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me {disfmarker} you know, we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work. Right? As long as we allow our type constraints to be reasonably {pause} complex.
Professor C: Well, it {disfmarker}
Grad B: So {disfmarker} Anyway, to be {disfmarker} to talk about later.
Professor C: Yeah, it has to in the sense that you're gonna use them eventu it's {disfmarker} you know, it's sort of a, um, generate and test kind of thing,
Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm.
Professor C: and if you over - generate then you'll have to do more. I mean, if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use uh, in your initial matching then you'll match some things {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm.
Professor C: I mean, I {disfmarker} I d I don't think there's any way that it could completely fail. It {disfmarker} it could be that uh, you wind up {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because {pause} there were just vastly too many parses. You know, exponentially num num many parses. And so th the concern might be that {disfmarker} not that it would totally fail, but that {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. That it would still generate too many. {comment} Right? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types, right?
Professor C: it would still genera
Grad B: Like" conceptually these have to be construed as this, this, and this" might still give us quite a few possibilities
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad B: that, you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and it certainly helps a lot.
Professor C: We don't know, but, yeah.
Grad B: I mean, le let's put it that way. So.
Professor C: No question. Yeah. And I think it's a {disfmarker} it's a perfectly fine place to start. You know, and say, let let's see how far we can go this way.
Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm.
Professor C: And, uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: Well it definitely makes the problem easier.
Professor C: I'm {disfmarker} I'm in favor of that. Uh, cuz I think i I think it's {disfmarker} As you know, I think it's real hard and if w if we {disfmarker} Right.
Grad B: So {pause} Friday, Monday
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Monday.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: So. OK, that's {disfmarker} Tuesday.
Grad A: Yeah.
Grad B: Like {disfmarker} {comment} th that's the conclusion. OK.
Professor C: Yeah.
Grad E: So, you your dance card is {pause} completely filled now?
Grad A: Shoot.
Grad D: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: Yeah, and I have nothing to do this weekend but work.
Grad E: Why don't {disfmarker}
Grad B: No, that's not really true,
Grad A: Bummer.
Grad B: but like {disfmarker}
Grad D: What about {disfmarker} What about DDR?
Grad B: It's almost true.
Grad F:
Grad B: Oh, I don't have it this weekend, so, tsk {comment} don't have to worry about that.
Grad D: Mmm.
Professor C: DDR, he asked?
Grad B: Speaking of dance, Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I'm {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker} it's like a game, but it's for, like, dancing. Hard to {disfmarker} It's like karaoke, but for dancing, and they tell you what {disfmarker} It's amazing. It's so much fun. Yeah, it's so good. My friend has a home version and he brought it over, and we are so into it. It's so amazing. Well, y you know of it? I i i it's one of your hobbies? It's great exercise, I must say. I can't wait to hear this. Uh - huh. Oh, definitely. They have, like, places {disfmarker} instead of like {disfmarker} Yeah, instead of karaoke bars now that have, like, DDR, like {disfmarker} Yeah, yeah, I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend, who's like" Oh, well, I can bring over the DDR if you want." Oh, oh, Dance Dance Revolution {disfmarker} OK. He actually brought a clone called Stepping Selection, but it's just as good. So. Anyw | Several technical matters are being resolved: a conversion program is being written for data to be translated between XML and the Java Embedded-Bayes notation; the language generation templates are now available for the english version of the SmartKom system; SmartKom now works on three different machines at ICSI. On the other hand, future collaboration on belief-nets has already been agreed with another research group. The construction analysis and formalism are also progressing. Several issues that have been dealt with were mentioned during the meeting: indefinite pronouns and wh-questions, noun-phrase structure, etc. This analysis is being done with the help of a linguist, who often provides different perspectives to methods and terminology. | qmsum |
Summarize presentations on the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials of user interface, trend watching.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six.
Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching.
Industrial Designer: That would be me.
User Interface: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Alright. Well.
Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go.
Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing?
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet.
Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve
Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker}
Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure,
Marketing: but I've no idea.
Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures.
Marketing: Sounds good.
Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Space-age remote.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element.
Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly.
Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, n
Project Manager: no idea, okay.
Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions?
User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so.
Industrial Designer: No? Okay.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look
Project Manager: Thank you, perfect.
Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Thanks.
Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book,
Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook,
Project Manager: then don't worry about that.
Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker}
Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know.
Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are.
User Interface: Jess.
Industrial Designer: G oh, geez.
User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So basically,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then?
User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right
User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and so
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it.
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak
Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying?
Project Manager: Well
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes.
Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box,
User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way,
Project Manager: mm-hmm.
User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can.
Industrial Designer: Oh, good point.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Um I'm not sure.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Is that going on? Okay.
Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually.
Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press,
Project Manager: Eight.
Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me.
Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough.
Industrial Designer: No signal.
Marketing: Alright.
Project Manager: There we are.
Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S sweet.
Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um.
Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on?
Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all?
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands.
Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that,
User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess
Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them,
Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: li
Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something.
Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped.
Project Manager: Could they be smelly?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God.
Project Manager: I don't know.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or carrot shaped,
Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot
Project Manager: mm.
Industrial Designer: isn't it?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button,
Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits.
User Interface: or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah.
Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit.
Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Kind of like a potato.
Industrial Designer: yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Might {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think.
Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little.
Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button.
Project Manager: Harder to push.
User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb.
Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it.
Project Manager: Don't you think?
Industrial Designer: No
Marketing: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized.
Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around.
Industrial Designer: Jus
Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them,
Marketing: But I like i
Project Manager: you know.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Maybe.
Industrial Designer: That's true.
User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps.
Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel.
User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well?
Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod.
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Is that {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Cause th
User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing?
Marketing: It's like five,
Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel.
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound}
Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle.
Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different,
Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button,
User Interface: Right.
Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there.
User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay.
Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design.
Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh uh
Marketing: so few buttons for main things,
Industrial Designer: t
Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of?
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And then you could still have that available.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice.
User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_
Industrial Designer: Right.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and people don't wanna do that.
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left,
Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we?
Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay.
Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours,
Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know.
User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, it's possible.
Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex
Industrial Designer: Exactly.
Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium.
Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options.
User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel.
Industrial Designer: Ooh.
User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well,
Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm.
Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound}
Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Options.
Marketing: Lemons?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print.
Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes.
Project Manager: G
Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick?
Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool.
Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is,
Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker}
User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good.
Marketing: Costs.
Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think.
Marketing: But over time {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If they're if they're really options.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I did f
User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe.
Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons?
User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume.
Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume,
Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers
User Interface: I don't think it would really work.
Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel.
Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll.
Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so.
Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume?
Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions?
Project Manager: F
Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus.
User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later.
Project Manager: Um.
Industrial Designer: I don't know.
Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case.
Project Manager: Okay, let's do case.
Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it?
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing.
Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board,
Project Manager: Ge o
Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface:'Kay. Yeah.
Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose.
Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved?
Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right?
Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll,
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: right? Or both?
User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button.
Industrial Designer: Good point.
User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple.
Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Is that okay with you?
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: How you feeling?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel.
Project Manager: It might be cool enough.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements,
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: how are we gonna do that?
User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly?
Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use.
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button,
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then?
User Interface: Yep. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Um in {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be?
User Interface: Yeah. On off,
Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker}
User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu.
Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, yeah
Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation?
User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right?
User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned.
Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down.
User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach.
Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wow.
Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip?
Industrial Designer: Simple chip.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so.
Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound} | The first presentation mainly covered component design. Industrial Designer introduced what should be the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery made of and what they should look like. The second presentation was about properties and materials. User Interface advocated an LCD with backlighting in a small device. The third presentation was trend watching given by Marketing. So Marketing suggested space materials or the LCD screen because they stressed fashion, simplicity and technology innovation. Also, Marketing didn't suggest that spongy material was necessary. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Hello again.
User Interface: Hello.
Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hey, Project Manager.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you.
Project Manager: Mm yeah.
User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker}
Marketing: What was it, problem?
User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound}
Marketing: The laptop?
User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung.
User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You're our Project Manager.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: for Real Reaction.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: During lunch, yeah.
Marketing: Master.
User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts.
Marketing: Master of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha.
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay.
Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs
Project Manager: One one little question.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Um about the the material.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control?
Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that.
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah.
Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit.
Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both?
User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably.
User Interface: W {gap} nah.
Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface.
Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic?
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery.
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much.
Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec
Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look?
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later.
Marketing: But, are you going to draw it?
Industrial Designer: What?
User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_?
Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you.
Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Design.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with.
Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay.
Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: A little artistic.
Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea,
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: It's soft.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons.
Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably.
Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think.
Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, a combination.
User Interface: A combination, yeah.
Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up.
Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Acu uh, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know.
User Interface: Okay. Yeah.
Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah.
User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think?
Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too.
Industrial Designer: You agree?
Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them.
Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both?
Marketing: Combine them.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved.
User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas?
Marketing: Rubber.
Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber?
User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}.
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker}
User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing,
Marketing: Rather hard.
Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have.
Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber.
User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah?
Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No.
Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape.
User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics,
Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen.
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it.
Marketing: That {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem.
User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it.
Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber.
Marketing: Yeah, me too.
Project Manager: Me too.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too?
User Interface: That's good.
Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit.
User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm yeah.
User Interface: I th I think that goes too far.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place,
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker}
User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced.
Project Manager: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Thank you.
Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome.
Marketing: Can I uh do my thing?
Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim.
Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Spongeball.
Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like a s soft material.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh.
Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah.
Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of.
Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could.
Marketing: No n j just j just a w
Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float.
Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look.
Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor.
User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours.
Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one.
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hey.
Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, exactly.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative.
Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, like something.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing:'Kay, second.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think.
Industrial Designer: Well, yeah.
Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same.
User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: When you're at college.
Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy.
User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure.
Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah.
User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options.
Marketing: Mm no.
User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it.
User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion.
Project Manager: Oh, okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control.
Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children.
User Interface: Yeah. Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Something like that.
User Interface: Um, w well, yeah.
Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings.
Marketing: Yeah, ok
Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents.
User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker}
Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in.
User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye
Marketing: Like two one three.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Marketing: And it's in.
User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it,
Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_.
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do.
Marketing: Yeah, of course.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea?
Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay.
Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with.
Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones.
Marketing: I th Yeah.
User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view.
User Interface: {gap} {gap}
Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out.
User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all,
Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah.
User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible.
User Interface: That isn't possible.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel.
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think.
Industrial Designer: Yeah?
Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise.
Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option.
Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true,
Marketing: go to a channel.
Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it.
Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much.
User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And games?
Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah.
User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: That would {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote,
Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co
User Interface: but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think.
Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice.
Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are
User Interface: Optional in
Project Manager: optional?
Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option.
Marketing: To put {disfmarker}
User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always.
Project Manager: Yeah?
User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something.
Project Manager: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance.
User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending.
Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just
Project Manager: Yeah, you yo
Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker}
Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true.
User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote.
Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control.
Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself.
User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah.
User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_
User Interface: Yeah?
Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press.
User Interface: {gap} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true.
User Interface: You have to f Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic
Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or j Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Consensus.
Project Manager: Uh, little more.
Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left.
User Interface: Oh.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome.
User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening.
Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view.
Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: User profile.
Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple.
Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker}
User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept.
Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users.
Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that.
Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do
Marketing: Okay. Go on.
Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure.
Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish.
Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh
Marketing: Marketing.
Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management?
Marketing: Management.
Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Som some bench-marker.
Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m
Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: Mm-hmm?
Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation.
User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah?
Marketing: Bling.
Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it.
Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom.
Marketing: {gap} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there.
Marketing: That spins around like all the time.
Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something.
Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon.
Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things.
User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f
Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes.
Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class?
Project Manager: The master class?
Marketing: Ronald Betenberg?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation.
Marketing: Ah.
Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email.
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now?
User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} P_.
Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen.
User Interface: Ah, no new email.
Industrial Designer: Definitely.
Marketing: Me too.
Project Manager: I will thank you all.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Thank you too, lord.
Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish.
User Interface: {vocalsound} See you.
Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers.
Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour.
Industrial Designer: Hey.
Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions.
Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together.
User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's not my problem.
User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound}
User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager.
Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email?
User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm. | This meeting was about conceptual design. Firstly, groupmates had three presentations on components, trend watching, and interface contents. Their target age group was below forty, so they suggested personal preferences on the remote, like the material, the battery, the speech recognition technology, etc. Then, they discussed the trendy features and decided to include parental control as well as the gaming features in the remote control. Finally, Project Manager shared some master class knowledge with group mates and suggested applying a marketing campaign, large provider marketing approach, and real reaction product idea. | qmsum |
Summarize the evaluation of the marketing expert on the prototype using the past user requirements and trends analysis.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh
User Interface: Yo.
Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: eval eval evalu
Industrial Designer: Evaluation.
Project Manager: evaluation
User Interface: Evaluation criteria.
Marketing: Evaluation.
Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro.
Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay.
Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem.
Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh,
User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics.
User Interface: Oh. Yeah.
Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start.
User Interface: Ok okay.
Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation.
User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure.
Marketing: J_ and J_.
Project Manager: J_ and J_.
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay.
Marketing: Jane and Jane.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away.
User Interface: Take it away.
Industrial Designer: Hi.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two.
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round.
User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff.
Project Manager: No, okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip.
Marketing: Okay. Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us.
Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote.
Marketing: Weemote.
Project Manager: Weemote.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this.
Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually,
User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable,
Industrial Designer: so it d
User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple,
Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever.
User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible,
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop.
User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.
User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something,
Marketing: Hmm. Mm.
User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money.
Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people.
Marketing: Oui okay.
Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard,
User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah.
Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical.
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow.
Marketing: Yeah, exactly.
Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours.
Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not too, but w a little,
User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: because that's our aim.
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: li like like this like this.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it?
User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I f
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons,
Marketing: Well I I I think so.
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model.
Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us.
Project Manager: Thank you.
Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now.
User Interface: It's my turn.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The Marketing Expert.
Industrial Designer: Uh-oh.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: During the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision.
Project Manager: Okay,
Marketing: Okay?
Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw.
Marketing: yeah? The prototype.
Project Manager: Okay, just saw.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Yeah. Seven?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Seven is false.
Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry.
Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, one I think.
Industrial Designer: Why?
Marketing: Most true?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: so a o one is appropriate?
User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle.
Marketing: Or, more like a four.
User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So,
Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly.
Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three.
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker}
Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then.
Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: One?
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons.
User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah.
User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons?
User Interface: Um, uh no.
Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu.
User Interface: You you've different menu.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, false.
Marketing: False?
User Interface: And volume is impo
Marketing: And volume?
Project Manager: Volume is true.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: True.
Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm.
Marketing: Big and clear?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear.
Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear.
User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six.
Marketing: Hey.
User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button.
Marketing: Hey. Hide.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it
Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear,
Marketing: J
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Five?
Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found.
User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound}
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker}
User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: have we deciding?
Marketing: Oh, okay,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable?
User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black.
Marketing: A li little bit maybe?
User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark.
Marketing: Four?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Fi
Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah.
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}.
Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four.
Marketing: Four?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false.
User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right.
Industrial Designer: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four.
Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think.
Industrial Designer: Wha
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: B_.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah?
Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker}
Marketing: But, okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh,
User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours.
Project Manager: True. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft.
Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided.
User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah.
Marketing: Three?
Project Manager: Three, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use,
Project Manager: Easy to use. One.
User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford.
Marketing: Easy to use?
Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Top easy to use?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker}
User Interface: No, you can do two, because um
Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It can be easier.
User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l
Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest.
User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so.
Industrial Designer: Functional ability.
Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button
User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two.
User Interface: Yeah, m mine too.
Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration.
Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff.
User Interface: These are the m regular remotes.
Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yes, true, one.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: You're agree, Tim?
Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course.
Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound}
Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No.
Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition.
Project Manager: False.
Industrial Designer: Yes,
Marketing: False.
Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker}
User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this.
Marketing: The remote control has built-in games?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game.
Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in.
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not down.
Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do.
User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: Save as.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe.
Marketing: Okay, I will uh
User Interface: Oh yay.
Marketing: do the the math.
User Interface: Oh dear.
Marketing: Now it's your turn.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see.
User Interface: Hmm?
Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign.
User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty.
Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Project Manager: That's zero.
Industrial Designer: Me, too.
User Interface: Battery, yes. One.
Project Manager: Battery, one?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one?
User Interface: Kinetic, one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print?
Industrial Designer: Uh, n no.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker?
User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip is three.
Project Manager: Three?
Marketing: Three Euros, yep.
Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor?
Industrial Designer: No, sev zero.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Speech recognition, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one.
Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: and s
Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat.
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: A zero.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} no.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: No. No.
Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah,
Marketing: Yes,
User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: three. Eight.
Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on.
Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma
Marketing: Two.
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: Two.
Project Manager: Uh, rubber.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You.
Industrial Designer: Zero.
Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound}
User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour?
Project Manager: Special colour?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on.
Project Manager: Yeah, one.
Marketing: That's another article to sell.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye?
Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this.
Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no.
User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no.
Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No.
Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh, button, no.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker}
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we don't have a s
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: These three.
Project Manager: no. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved.
Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something?
User Interface: Mm, single-curves.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it,
User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah.
Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure.
User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Daniel. Daniel,
Project Manager: Yo. Sorry,
Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here.
Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound}
Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual.
Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay.
Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic,
Marketing: Just an idea.
User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}.
User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay,
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved.
Marketing: Yeah, of course.
Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem.
Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah.
Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem.
Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh,
User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip?
Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation.
User Interface: Curvy.
Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for?
Project Manager: Sorry?
Marketing: The blue blue uh
Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a
User Interface: Explanation.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: explanation.
User Interface: Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want.
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, no no.
Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done.
User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves.
Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But, you do l
Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more.
User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap}
Industrial Designer: Function.
User Interface: Functional.
Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth?
User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price.
Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is.
Marketing: No, we can't go above that.
Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is.
Marketing: Yeah?
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay.
Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, I think so.
Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks?
User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Not freaks,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the envi No.
Industrial Designer: True.
Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one.
User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version.
Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: thing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is strange by the way.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it.
Marketing: This is it.
User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium.
Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that.
Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity.
Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m
User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha.
Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi
Marketing: No, leadership was uh
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too.
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the
Marketing: About me. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh
Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better.
User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus.
Project Manager: yeah.
User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive.
Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed.
User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay.
Marketing: Two guys.
Project Manager: The {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well.
Project Manager: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No hard feelings.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while.
User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker}
User Interface: D uh just write your name right now.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Try to write your name,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah?
Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line.
Project Manager: okay.
User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now.
Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it.
User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with,
Marketing: Means.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen.
User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah.
Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting.
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me.
Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow.
Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word.
User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value.
Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No.
Marketing: Not really, no.
Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise.
Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker}
User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this.
User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller.
Marketing: Smaller?
User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter.
Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small.
User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh. Sorry.
Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser.
Marketing: Okay. New ideas?
User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you?
User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so.
Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No.
User Interface: Hello.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Here.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
Marketing: The eva the evaluation,
Project Manager: Oh yeah.
Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six.
Project Manager: That's interesting.
Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think.
Project Manager: Okay,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: because what does it mean?
User Interface: So true.
Marketing: Uh, that uh
Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two.
Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software?
User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it.
Project Manager: Not really, yeah?
User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay,
Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: More user-friendly.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and you do
Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that l
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen.
Marketing: Hmm? No.
User Interface: And that's a very bad concept.
Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Ah, very bad.
User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now.
User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available?
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art.
Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink?
User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com.
Marketing: Type type it?
User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}.
Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_.
Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry?
Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay?
User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh.
Project Manager: Well, that's nice.
User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay, double-click it.
User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: You're erasing.
User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow.
Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that.
Marketing: Double-click it.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal,
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh
User Interface: To use, yeah.
Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and we are now with four people,
User Interface: And that's m
Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah.
User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: What I really miss also is uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven.
Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism.
Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application.
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Just a little group group decision application.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it.
Marketing: Yeah, okay.
Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on.
Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah.
Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process.
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part.
Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Yo, manager.
Marketing: That's it?
Project Manager: Uh well, just about,
User Interface: When are w
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: When are we going to produce it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget.
Marketing: Celebration.
Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: What is an end report?
Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report.
Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages.
Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report.
Marketing: Okay, Daniel.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe?
User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no no,
Marketing: Hey?
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report.
Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no?
Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet.
Marketing: Five minutes for finishing.
Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah.
Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that.
Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here.
Marketing: Marketing.
User Interface: It's a read-only version.
Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that.
Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second.
Project Manager: So, this one's first.
Marketing: S switch, yes.
Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on.
Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three.
Marketing: Yes, very good.
User Interface: One two three.
Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important,
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}.
Marketing: The order.
Project Manager: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost.
Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable.
Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, the buttons
Industrial Designer: It's not double.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm?
User Interface: A single-curved.
Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh?
Project Manager: Not double anymore.
Marketing: No, okay.
Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh?
User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap.
Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap,
Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's very necessary.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think.
Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh
User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Of directur or directors.
Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it.
Marketing: Real Reaction.
Project Manager: Real Real Reaction.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah.
User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay,
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now.
Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think.
Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes.
User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned.
Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned.
Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_.
User Interface: Okay, this n yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No.
Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Party party {gap}.
Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting.
User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first.
Marketing: Save it.
User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files.
Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing.
User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one.
Marketing: Example of children remote.
User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo.
Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity.
User Interface: Don't save it, aye?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now.
User Interface: Uh,
Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm
User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files
Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report.
User Interface: saved?
Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah. | The marketing expert confirmed with the group that the product was aimed at people with age below forty, but it was also designed for people above forty. The marketing expert also stated that people would need a teletext button because it was originally combined with the menu in the prototype. After that, the marketing expert discussed with the designers to design the prototype with fresh colours so it would be more discoverable when lost. They also agreed on the button numbers and the texture. | qmsum |
What did the user interface designer and the project manager discuss about the colour of the product?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh
User Interface: Yo.
Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: eval eval evalu
Industrial Designer: Evaluation.
Project Manager: evaluation
User Interface: Evaluation criteria.
Marketing: Evaluation.
Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro.
Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay.
Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem.
Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh,
User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics.
User Interface: Oh. Yeah.
Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start.
User Interface: Ok okay.
Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation.
User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure.
Marketing: J_ and J_.
Project Manager: J_ and J_.
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay.
Marketing: Jane and Jane.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away.
User Interface: Take it away.
Industrial Designer: Hi.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two.
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round.
User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff.
Project Manager: No, okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip.
Marketing: Okay. Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us.
Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote.
Marketing: Weemote.
Project Manager: Weemote.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this.
Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually,
User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable,
Industrial Designer: so it d
User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple,
Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever.
User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible,
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop.
User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.
User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something,
Marketing: Hmm. Mm.
User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money.
Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people.
Marketing: Oui okay.
Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard,
User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah.
Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical.
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow.
Marketing: Yeah, exactly.
Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours.
Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not too, but w a little,
User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: because that's our aim.
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: li like like this like this.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it?
User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I f
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons,
Marketing: Well I I I think so.
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model.
Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us.
Project Manager: Thank you.
Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now.
User Interface: It's my turn.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The Marketing Expert.
Industrial Designer: Uh-oh.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: During the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision.
Project Manager: Okay,
Marketing: Okay?
Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw.
Marketing: yeah? The prototype.
Project Manager: Okay, just saw.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Yeah. Seven?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Seven is false.
Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry.
Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, one I think.
Industrial Designer: Why?
Marketing: Most true?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: so a o one is appropriate?
User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle.
Marketing: Or, more like a four.
User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So,
Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly.
Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three.
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker}
Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then.
Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: One?
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons.
User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah.
User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons?
User Interface: Um, uh no.
Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu.
User Interface: You you've different menu.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, false.
Marketing: False?
User Interface: And volume is impo
Marketing: And volume?
Project Manager: Volume is true.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: True.
Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm.
Marketing: Big and clear?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear.
Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear.
User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six.
Marketing: Hey.
User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button.
Marketing: Hey. Hide.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it
Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear,
Marketing: J
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Five?
Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found.
User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound}
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker}
User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: have we deciding?
Marketing: Oh, okay,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable?
User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black.
Marketing: A li little bit maybe?
User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark.
Marketing: Four?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Fi
Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah.
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}.
Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four.
Marketing: Four?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false.
User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right.
Industrial Designer: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four.
Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think.
Industrial Designer: Wha
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: B_.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah?
Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker}
Marketing: But, okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh,
User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours.
Project Manager: True. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft.
Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided.
User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah.
Marketing: Three?
Project Manager: Three, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use,
Project Manager: Easy to use. One.
User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford.
Marketing: Easy to use?
Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Top easy to use?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker}
User Interface: No, you can do two, because um
Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It can be easier.
User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l
Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest.
User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so.
Industrial Designer: Functional ability.
Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button
User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two.
User Interface: Yeah, m mine too.
Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration.
Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff.
User Interface: These are the m regular remotes.
Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yes, true, one.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: You're agree, Tim?
Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course.
Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound}
Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No.
Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition.
Project Manager: False.
Industrial Designer: Yes,
Marketing: False.
Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker}
User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this.
Marketing: The remote control has built-in games?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game.
Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in.
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not down.
Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do.
User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: Save as.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe.
Marketing: Okay, I will uh
User Interface: Oh yay.
Marketing: do the the math.
User Interface: Oh dear.
Marketing: Now it's your turn.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see.
User Interface: Hmm?
Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign.
User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty.
Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Project Manager: That's zero.
Industrial Designer: Me, too.
User Interface: Battery, yes. One.
Project Manager: Battery, one?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one?
User Interface: Kinetic, one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print?
Industrial Designer: Uh, n no.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker?
User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip is three.
Project Manager: Three?
Marketing: Three Euros, yep.
Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor?
Industrial Designer: No, sev zero.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Speech recognition, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one.
Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: and s
Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat.
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: A zero.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} no.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: No. No.
Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah,
Marketing: Yes,
User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: three. Eight.
Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on.
Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma
Marketing: Two.
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: Two.
Project Manager: Uh, rubber.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You.
Industrial Designer: Zero.
Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound}
User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour?
Project Manager: Special colour?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on.
Project Manager: Yeah, one.
Marketing: That's another article to sell.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye?
Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this.
Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no.
User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no.
Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No.
Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh, button, no.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker}
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we don't have a s
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: These three.
Project Manager: no. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved.
Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something?
User Interface: Mm, single-curves.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it,
User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah.
Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure.
User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Daniel. Daniel,
Project Manager: Yo. Sorry,
Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here.
Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound}
Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual.
Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay.
Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic,
Marketing: Just an idea.
User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}.
User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay,
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved.
Marketing: Yeah, of course.
Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem.
Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah.
Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem.
Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh,
User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip?
Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation.
User Interface: Curvy.
Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for?
Project Manager: Sorry?
Marketing: The blue blue uh
Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a
User Interface: Explanation.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: explanation.
User Interface: Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want.
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, no no.
Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done.
User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves.
Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But, you do l
Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more.
User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap}
Industrial Designer: Function.
User Interface: Functional.
Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth?
User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price.
Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is.
Marketing: No, we can't go above that.
Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is.
Marketing: Yeah?
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay.
Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, I think so.
Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks?
User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Not freaks,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the envi No.
Industrial Designer: True.
Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one.
User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version.
Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: thing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is strange by the way.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it.
Marketing: This is it.
User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium.
Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that.
Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity.
Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m
User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha.
Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi
Marketing: No, leadership was uh
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too.
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the
Marketing: About me. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh
Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better.
User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus.
Project Manager: yeah.
User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive.
Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed.
User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay.
Marketing: Two guys.
Project Manager: The {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well.
Project Manager: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No hard feelings.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while.
User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker}
User Interface: D uh just write your name right now.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Try to write your name,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah?
Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line.
Project Manager: okay.
User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now.
Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it.
User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with,
Marketing: Means.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen.
User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah.
Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting.
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me.
Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow.
Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word.
User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value.
Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No.
Marketing: Not really, no.
Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise.
Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker}
User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this.
User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller.
Marketing: Smaller?
User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter.
Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small.
User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh. Sorry.
Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser.
Marketing: Okay. New ideas?
User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you?
User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so.
Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No.
User Interface: Hello.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Here.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
Marketing: The eva the evaluation,
Project Manager: Oh yeah.
Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six.
Project Manager: That's interesting.
Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think.
Project Manager: Okay,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: because what does it mean?
User Interface: So true.
Marketing: Uh, that uh
Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two.
Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software?
User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it.
Project Manager: Not really, yeah?
User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay,
Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: More user-friendly.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and you do
Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that l
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen.
Marketing: Hmm? No.
User Interface: And that's a very bad concept.
Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Ah, very bad.
User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now.
User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available?
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art.
Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink?
User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com.
Marketing: Type type it?
User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}.
Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_.
Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry?
Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay?
User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh.
Project Manager: Well, that's nice.
User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay, double-click it.
User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: You're erasing.
User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow.
Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that.
Marketing: Double-click it.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal,
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh
User Interface: To use, yeah.
Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and we are now with four people,
User Interface: And that's m
Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah.
User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: What I really miss also is uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven.
Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism.
Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application.
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Just a little group group decision application.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it.
Marketing: Yeah, okay.
Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on.
Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah.
Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process.
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part.
Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Yo, manager.
Marketing: That's it?
Project Manager: Uh well, just about,
User Interface: When are w
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: When are we going to produce it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget.
Marketing: Celebration.
Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: What is an end report?
Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report.
Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages.
Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report.
Marketing: Okay, Daniel.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe?
User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no no,
Marketing: Hey?
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report.
Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no?
Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet.
Marketing: Five minutes for finishing.
Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah.
Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that.
Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here.
Marketing: Marketing.
User Interface: It's a read-only version.
Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that.
Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second.
Project Manager: So, this one's first.
Marketing: S switch, yes.
Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on.
Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three.
Marketing: Yes, very good.
User Interface: One two three.
Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important,
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}.
Marketing: The order.
Project Manager: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost.
Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable.
Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, the buttons
Industrial Designer: It's not double.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm?
User Interface: A single-curved.
Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh?
Project Manager: Not double anymore.
Marketing: No, okay.
Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh?
User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap.
Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap,
Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's very necessary.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think.
Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh
User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Of directur or directors.
Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it.
Marketing: Real Reaction.
Project Manager: Real Real Reaction.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah.
User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay,
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now.
Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think.
Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes.
User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned.
Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned.
Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_.
User Interface: Okay, this n yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No.
Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Party party {gap}.
Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting.
User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first.
Marketing: Save it.
User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files.
Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing.
User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one.
Marketing: Example of children remote.
User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo.
Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity.
User Interface: Don't save it, aye?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now.
User Interface: Uh,
Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm
User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files
Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report.
User Interface: saved?
Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah. | The user interface designer was trying to implement a more dynamic and youthful colour on the remote control. However, the designers did not want it to be too childish and stated their will to make it more of an adult-style. Thus they wanted to use metallic grey as the colour of the appearance, and make an extra cover with flashy fruity colours to attract the broader public. Since their target aim was still younger people, a cover would make them more flexible to change the remote control into whatever colour they wanted. | qmsum |
How did they discuss the kinetic function of the remote control?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh
User Interface: Yo.
Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: eval eval evalu
Industrial Designer: Evaluation.
Project Manager: evaluation
User Interface: Evaluation criteria.
Marketing: Evaluation.
Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro.
Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay.
Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem.
Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh,
User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics.
User Interface: Oh. Yeah.
Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start.
User Interface: Ok okay.
Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation.
User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure.
Marketing: J_ and J_.
Project Manager: J_ and J_.
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay.
Marketing: Jane and Jane.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away.
User Interface: Take it away.
Industrial Designer: Hi.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two.
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round.
User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff.
Project Manager: No, okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip.
Marketing: Okay. Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us.
Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote.
Marketing: Weemote.
Project Manager: Weemote.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this.
Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually,
User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable,
Industrial Designer: so it d
User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple,
Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever.
User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible,
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop.
User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.
User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something,
Marketing: Hmm. Mm.
User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money.
Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people.
Marketing: Oui okay.
Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard,
User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah.
Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical.
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow.
Marketing: Yeah, exactly.
Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours.
Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not too, but w a little,
User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: because that's our aim.
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: li like like this like this.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it?
User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I f
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons,
Marketing: Well I I I think so.
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model.
Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us.
Project Manager: Thank you.
Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now.
User Interface: It's my turn.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The Marketing Expert.
Industrial Designer: Uh-oh.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: During the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision.
Project Manager: Okay,
Marketing: Okay?
Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw.
Marketing: yeah? The prototype.
Project Manager: Okay, just saw.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Yeah. Seven?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Seven is false.
Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry.
Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, one I think.
Industrial Designer: Why?
Marketing: Most true?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: so a o one is appropriate?
User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle.
Marketing: Or, more like a four.
User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So,
Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly.
Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three.
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker}
Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then.
Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: One?
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons.
User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah.
User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons?
User Interface: Um, uh no.
Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu.
User Interface: You you've different menu.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, false.
Marketing: False?
User Interface: And volume is impo
Marketing: And volume?
Project Manager: Volume is true.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: True.
Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm.
Marketing: Big and clear?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear.
Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear.
User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six.
Marketing: Hey.
User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button.
Marketing: Hey. Hide.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it
Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear,
Marketing: J
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Five?
Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found.
User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound}
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker}
User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: have we deciding?
Marketing: Oh, okay,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable?
User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black.
Marketing: A li little bit maybe?
User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark.
Marketing: Four?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Fi
Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah.
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}.
Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four.
Marketing: Four?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false.
User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right.
Industrial Designer: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four.
Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think.
Industrial Designer: Wha
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: B_.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah?
Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker}
Marketing: But, okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh,
User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours.
Project Manager: True. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft.
Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided.
User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah.
Marketing: Three?
Project Manager: Three, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use,
Project Manager: Easy to use. One.
User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford.
Marketing: Easy to use?
Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Top easy to use?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker}
User Interface: No, you can do two, because um
Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It can be easier.
User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l
Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest.
User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so.
Industrial Designer: Functional ability.
Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button
User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two.
User Interface: Yeah, m mine too.
Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration.
Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff.
User Interface: These are the m regular remotes.
Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yes, true, one.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: You're agree, Tim?
Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course.
Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound}
Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No.
Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition.
Project Manager: False.
Industrial Designer: Yes,
Marketing: False.
Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker}
User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this.
Marketing: The remote control has built-in games?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game.
Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in.
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not down.
Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do.
User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: Save as.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe.
Marketing: Okay, I will uh
User Interface: Oh yay.
Marketing: do the the math.
User Interface: Oh dear.
Marketing: Now it's your turn.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see.
User Interface: Hmm?
Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign.
User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty.
Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Project Manager: That's zero.
Industrial Designer: Me, too.
User Interface: Battery, yes. One.
Project Manager: Battery, one?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one?
User Interface: Kinetic, one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print?
Industrial Designer: Uh, n no.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker?
User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip is three.
Project Manager: Three?
Marketing: Three Euros, yep.
Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor?
Industrial Designer: No, sev zero.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Speech recognition, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one.
Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: and s
Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat.
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: A zero.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} no.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: No. No.
Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah,
Marketing: Yes,
User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: three. Eight.
Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on.
Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma
Marketing: Two.
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: Two.
Project Manager: Uh, rubber.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You.
Industrial Designer: Zero.
Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound}
User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour?
Project Manager: Special colour?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on.
Project Manager: Yeah, one.
Marketing: That's another article to sell.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye?
Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this.
Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no.
User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no.
Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No.
Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh, button, no.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker}
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we don't have a s
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: These three.
Project Manager: no. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved.
Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something?
User Interface: Mm, single-curves.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it,
User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah.
Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure.
User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Daniel. Daniel,
Project Manager: Yo. Sorry,
Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here.
Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound}
Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual.
Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay.
Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic,
Marketing: Just an idea.
User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}.
User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay,
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved.
Marketing: Yeah, of course.
Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem.
Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah.
Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem.
Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh,
User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip?
Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation.
User Interface: Curvy.
Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for?
Project Manager: Sorry?
Marketing: The blue blue uh
Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a
User Interface: Explanation.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: explanation.
User Interface: Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want.
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, no no.
Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done.
User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves.
Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But, you do l
Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more.
User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap}
Industrial Designer: Function.
User Interface: Functional.
Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth?
User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price.
Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is.
Marketing: No, we can't go above that.
Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is.
Marketing: Yeah?
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay.
Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, I think so.
Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks?
User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Not freaks,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the envi No.
Industrial Designer: True.
Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one.
User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version.
Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: thing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is strange by the way.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it.
Marketing: This is it.
User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium.
Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that.
Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity.
Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m
User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha.
Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi
Marketing: No, leadership was uh
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too.
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the
Marketing: About me. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh
Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better.
User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus.
Project Manager: yeah.
User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive.
Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed.
User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay.
Marketing: Two guys.
Project Manager: The {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well.
Project Manager: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No hard feelings.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while.
User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker}
User Interface: D uh just write your name right now.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Try to write your name,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah?
Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line.
Project Manager: okay.
User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now.
Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it.
User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with,
Marketing: Means.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen.
User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah.
Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting.
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me.
Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow.
Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word.
User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value.
Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No.
Marketing: Not really, no.
Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise.
Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker}
User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this.
User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller.
Marketing: Smaller?
User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter.
Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small.
User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh. Sorry.
Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser.
Marketing: Okay. New ideas?
User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you?
User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so.
Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No.
User Interface: Hello.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Here.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
Marketing: The eva the evaluation,
Project Manager: Oh yeah.
Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six.
Project Manager: That's interesting.
Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think.
Project Manager: Okay,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: because what does it mean?
User Interface: So true.
Marketing: Uh, that uh
Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two.
Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software?
User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it.
Project Manager: Not really, yeah?
User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay,
Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: More user-friendly.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and you do
Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that l
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen.
Marketing: Hmm? No.
User Interface: And that's a very bad concept.
Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Ah, very bad.
User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now.
User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available?
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art.
Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink?
User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com.
Marketing: Type type it?
User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}.
Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_.
Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry?
Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay?
User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh.
Project Manager: Well, that's nice.
User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay, double-click it.
User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: You're erasing.
User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow.
Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that.
Marketing: Double-click it.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal,
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh
User Interface: To use, yeah.
Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and we are now with four people,
User Interface: And that's m
Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah.
User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: What I really miss also is uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven.
Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism.
Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application.
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Just a little group group decision application.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it.
Marketing: Yeah, okay.
Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on.
Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah.
Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process.
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part.
Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Yo, manager.
Marketing: That's it?
Project Manager: Uh well, just about,
User Interface: When are w
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: When are we going to produce it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget.
Marketing: Celebration.
Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: What is an end report?
Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report.
Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages.
Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report.
Marketing: Okay, Daniel.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe?
User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no no,
Marketing: Hey?
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report.
Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no?
Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet.
Marketing: Five minutes for finishing.
Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah.
Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that.
Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here.
Marketing: Marketing.
User Interface: It's a read-only version.
Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that.
Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second.
Project Manager: So, this one's first.
Marketing: S switch, yes.
Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on.
Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three.
Marketing: Yes, very good.
User Interface: One two three.
Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important,
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}.
Marketing: The order.
Project Manager: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost.
Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable.
Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, the buttons
Industrial Designer: It's not double.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm?
User Interface: A single-curved.
Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh?
Project Manager: Not double anymore.
Marketing: No, okay.
Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh?
User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap.
Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap,
Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's very necessary.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think.
Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh
User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Of directur or directors.
Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it.
Marketing: Real Reaction.
Project Manager: Real Real Reaction.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah.
User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay,
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now.
Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think.
Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes.
User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned.
Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned.
Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_.
User Interface: Okay, this n yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No.
Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Party party {gap}.
Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting.
User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first.
Marketing: Save it.
User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files.
Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing.
User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one.
Marketing: Example of children remote.
User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo.
Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity.
User Interface: Don't save it, aye?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now.
User Interface: Uh,
Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm
User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files
Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report.
User Interface: saved?
Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah. | The project manager wanted to remove the kinetic function as the manager thought it would be a desirable cost reduction. However, the industrial designer did not agree with the project manager because the designer thought it would be a good marketing promotion as people would think that remote controls with kinetic function are cool. Since they still wanted the price to remain on the same level, they decided to adapt the control into a flat one so as to minimize the cost. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh
User Interface: Yo.
Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: eval eval evalu
Industrial Designer: Evaluation.
Project Manager: evaluation
User Interface: Evaluation criteria.
Marketing: Evaluation.
Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro.
Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay.
Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem.
Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh,
User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics.
User Interface: Oh. Yeah.
Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start.
User Interface: Ok okay.
Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation.
User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure.
Marketing: J_ and J_.
Project Manager: J_ and J_.
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay.
Marketing: Jane and Jane.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away.
User Interface: Take it away.
Industrial Designer: Hi.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two.
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round.
User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff.
Project Manager: No, okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip.
Marketing: Okay. Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us.
Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote.
Marketing: Weemote.
Project Manager: Weemote.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this.
Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually,
User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable,
Industrial Designer: so it d
User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple,
Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever.
User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible,
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop.
User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.
User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something,
Marketing: Hmm. Mm.
User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money.
Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people.
Marketing: Oui okay.
Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard,
User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah.
Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical.
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow.
Marketing: Yeah, exactly.
Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours.
Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not too, but w a little,
User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: because that's our aim.
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: li like like this like this.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it?
User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I f
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons,
Marketing: Well I I I think so.
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model.
Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us.
Project Manager: Thank you.
Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now.
User Interface: It's my turn.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The Marketing Expert.
Industrial Designer: Uh-oh.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: During the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision.
Project Manager: Okay,
Marketing: Okay?
Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw.
Marketing: yeah? The prototype.
Project Manager: Okay, just saw.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Yeah. Seven?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Seven is false.
Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry.
Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, one I think.
Industrial Designer: Why?
Marketing: Most true?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: so a o one is appropriate?
User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle.
Marketing: Or, more like a four.
User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So,
Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly.
Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three.
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker}
Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then.
Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: One?
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons.
User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah.
User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons?
User Interface: Um, uh no.
Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu.
User Interface: You you've different menu.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, false.
Marketing: False?
User Interface: And volume is impo
Marketing: And volume?
Project Manager: Volume is true.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: True.
Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm.
Marketing: Big and clear?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear.
Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear.
User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six.
Marketing: Hey.
User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button.
Marketing: Hey. Hide.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it
Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear,
Marketing: J
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Five?
Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found.
User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound}
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker}
User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: have we deciding?
Marketing: Oh, okay,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable?
User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black.
Marketing: A li little bit maybe?
User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark.
Marketing: Four?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Fi
Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah.
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}.
Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four.
Marketing: Four?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false.
User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right.
Industrial Designer: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four.
Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think.
Industrial Designer: Wha
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: B_.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually.
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah?
Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker}
Marketing: But, okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh,
User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours.
Project Manager: True. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft.
Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided.
User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah.
Marketing: Three?
Project Manager: Three, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use,
Project Manager: Easy to use. One.
User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford.
Marketing: Easy to use?
Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Top easy to use?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker}
User Interface: No, you can do two, because um
Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It can be easier.
User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l
Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest.
User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so.
Industrial Designer: Functional ability.
Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button
User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two.
User Interface: Yeah, m mine too.
Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration.
Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff.
User Interface: These are the m regular remotes.
Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yes, true, one.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: You're agree, Tim?
Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course.
Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound}
Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No.
Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition.
Project Manager: False.
Industrial Designer: Yes,
Marketing: False.
Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker}
User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this.
Marketing: The remote control has built-in games?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game.
Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in.
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not down.
Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do.
User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: Save as.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe.
Marketing: Okay, I will uh
User Interface: Oh yay.
Marketing: do the the math.
User Interface: Oh dear.
Marketing: Now it's your turn.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see.
User Interface: Hmm?
Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign.
User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty.
Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Project Manager: That's zero.
Industrial Designer: Me, too.
User Interface: Battery, yes. One.
Project Manager: Battery, one?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one?
User Interface: Kinetic, one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print?
Industrial Designer: Uh, n no.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker?
User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Advanced chip is three.
Project Manager: Three?
Marketing: Three Euros, yep.
Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor?
Industrial Designer: No, sev zero.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Speech recognition, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one.
Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: and s
Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat.
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: A zero.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} no.
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: No. No.
Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah,
Marketing: Yes,
User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: three. Eight.
Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on.
Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma
Marketing: Two.
User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: Two.
Project Manager: Uh, rubber.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You.
Industrial Designer: Zero.
Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound}
User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour?
Project Manager: Special colour?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on.
Project Manager: Yeah, one.
Marketing: That's another article to sell.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye?
Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this.
Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no.
User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no.
Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No.
Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh, button, no.
User Interface: One, yeah.
Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker}
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we don't have a s
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: These three.
Project Manager: no. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No. No.
Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved.
Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something?
User Interface: Mm, single-curves.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager?
Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it,
User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah.
Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative.
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure.
User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Daniel. Daniel,
Project Manager: Yo. Sorry,
Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here.
Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound}
Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual.
Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay.
Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic,
Marketing: Just an idea.
User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}.
User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay,
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved.
Marketing: Yeah, of course.
Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem.
Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah.
Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem.
Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh,
User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip?
Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation.
User Interface: Curvy.
Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for?
Project Manager: Sorry?
Marketing: The blue blue uh
Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a
User Interface: Explanation.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: explanation.
User Interface: Twelve fifty.
Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want.
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, no no.
Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done.
User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves.
Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: But, you do l
Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more.
User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap}
Industrial Designer: Function.
User Interface: Functional.
Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth?
User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price.
Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is.
Marketing: No, we can't go above that.
Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is.
Marketing: Yeah?
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay.
Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, I think so.
Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks?
User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Not freaks,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the envi No.
Industrial Designer: True.
Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one.
User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version.
Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: thing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is strange by the way.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it.
Marketing: This is it.
User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium.
Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again.
Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that.
Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity.
Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m
User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha.
Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi
Marketing: No, leadership was uh
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too.
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the
Marketing: About me. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh
Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better.
User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus.
Project Manager: yeah.
User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive.
Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed.
User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay.
Marketing: Two guys.
Project Manager: The {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well.
Project Manager: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No hard feelings.
Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while.
User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker}
User Interface: D uh just write your name right now.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Try to write your name,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah?
Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line.
Project Manager: okay.
User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now.
Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it.
User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh.
Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with,
Marketing: Means.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen.
User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah.
Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting.
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me.
Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow.
Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word.
User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value.
Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No.
Marketing: Not really, no.
Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think.
User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise.
Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker}
User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this.
User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller.
Marketing: Smaller?
User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter.
Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small.
User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh. Sorry.
Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser.
Marketing: Okay. New ideas?
User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you?
User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so.
Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No.
User Interface: Hello.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Here.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
Marketing: The eva the evaluation,
Project Manager: Oh yeah.
Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six.
Project Manager: That's interesting.
Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think.
Project Manager: Okay,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: because what does it mean?
User Interface: So true.
Marketing: Uh, that uh
Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two.
Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software?
User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it.
Project Manager: Not really, yeah?
User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay,
Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: More user-friendly.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: and you do
Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that l
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen.
Marketing: Hmm? No.
User Interface: And that's a very bad concept.
Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true.
Marketing: Ah, very bad.
User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now.
User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available?
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art.
Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink?
User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com.
Marketing: Type type it?
User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}.
Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_.
Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry?
Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay?
User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh.
Project Manager: Well, that's nice.
User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay, double-click it.
User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry.
Marketing: You're erasing.
User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow.
Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that.
Marketing: Double-click it.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal,
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh
User Interface: To use, yeah.
Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and we are now with four people,
User Interface: And that's m
Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah.
User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: What I really miss also is uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven.
Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism.
Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application.
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Just a little group group decision application.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it.
Marketing: Yeah, okay.
Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on.
Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah.
Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process.
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part.
Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Yo, manager.
Marketing: That's it?
Project Manager: Uh well, just about,
User Interface: When are w
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: When are we going to produce it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget.
Marketing: Celebration.
Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: What is an end report?
Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report.
Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages.
Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report.
Marketing: Okay, Daniel.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe?
User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no no,
Marketing: Hey?
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report.
Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no?
Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet.
Marketing: Five minutes for finishing.
Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah.
Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that.
Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here.
Marketing: Marketing.
User Interface: It's a read-only version.
Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name.
User Interface: Oh, okay.
Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that.
Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second.
Project Manager: So, this one's first.
Marketing: S switch, yes.
Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on.
Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three.
Marketing: Yes, very good.
User Interface: One two three.
Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important,
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}.
Marketing: The order.
Project Manager: Uh,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost.
Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable.
Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, the buttons
Industrial Designer: It's not double.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm?
User Interface: A single-curved.
Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh?
Project Manager: Not double anymore.
Marketing: No, okay.
Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay.
Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh?
User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap.
Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap,
Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's very necessary.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think.
Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh
User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Of directur or directors.
Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it.
Marketing: Real Reaction.
Project Manager: Real Real Reaction.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah.
User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay,
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now.
Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think.
Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes.
User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned.
Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned.
Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_.
User Interface: Okay, this n yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No.
Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Party party {gap}.
Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting.
User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first.
Marketing: Save it.
User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files.
Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing.
User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one.
Marketing: Example of children remote.
User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo.
Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity.
User Interface: Don't save it, aye?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now.
User Interface: Uh,
Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm
User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files
Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report.
User Interface: saved?
Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah. | The group mainly talked about the interface design and price setting of the product. Firstly, the user interface designer gave a presentation on the prototype of the product. They provided the prototypes with a lot of details on the appearances and those details were then further discussed by the group. After that, the marketing expert used a seven-point scale to evaluate the prototype according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. They Cleared some misconceptions and reached a consensus on the targeting group and how they could adapt the product better to suit their needs. Then they discussed the price setting of the product and how many functions needed to be retained or removed. As they were trying very hard to remain the price at twelve and a half Euro, they squabbled over the plus and minus of the functions. In the end, they finalized on the costs and planned a celebration for the closing down of the project. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers?
Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake.
Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised.
Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work.
Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--?
Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience.
Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary?
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective.
Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you.
Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates--
Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground?
Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one--
Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there.
Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are.
Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way.
Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be--
Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming.
Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree.
Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University.
Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University--
Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree.
Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification.
Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application?
Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students.
Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective?
Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail--
Hefin David AM: No, I've said that.
Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received.
Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed?
Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities--
Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it.
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference.
Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that.
Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities.
Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about?
Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us?
Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm?
Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren.
Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption?
Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification.
Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course?
Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well--
Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it.
Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered?
Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly.
Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that.
Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed.
Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision.
Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges?
Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4?
Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there.
Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to--
Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively.
Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac.
Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England.
Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make.
Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one--
Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really.
Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those?
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit.
Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs--
Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous--
Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay. | The meeting was mainly about the Welsh baccalaureate. The committee began with the value of the baccalaureate. There have been young people who entered universities with a baccalaureate qualification. The goal of the committee was to further refine the qualification to balance it with other qualifications that had been recognized by universities and school leaders such as A-Levels. The grading system has been admitted to be rigorous. Students were expected to be evaluated on their individual ability. Although universities showed ambivalent attitudes towards the baccalaureate, its advantage could not be denied. The committee aimed to aid financially in the Welsh schools in organizing the baccalaureate and offering its corresponding courses of high quality. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about the bill to ban physical punishment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that?
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints?
Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this.
Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--.
Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple.
Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything--
Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but--
Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--?
Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it.
Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes--
Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change.
Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation--
Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point.
Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are.
Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking--
Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now.
Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think--
Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing.
Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country?
Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country?
Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising.
Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential.
Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen.
Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely.
Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely.
Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it.
Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess.
Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted--
Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on?
Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise.
Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be--
Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation?
Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers.
Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect?
Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that.
Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate.
Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training?
Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal?
Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that.
Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that.
Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group?
Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them.
Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised?
Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the--
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue.
Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that--
Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does.
Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that.
Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case?
Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist.
Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out?
Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this.
Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure--
Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage.
Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police?
Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention.
Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working--
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything--
Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area.
Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So--
Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen?
Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases--
Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though?
Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount--
Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment.
Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right?
Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly.
Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources.
Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur?
Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload.
Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill?
Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact.
Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside?
Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion?
Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process.
Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with?
Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion.
Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect.
Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill?
Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but--
Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million--
Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million--
Karen Cornish: Something like that.
Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough?
Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights.
Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination?
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that.
Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please?
Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law?
Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed.
Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue?
Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it.
Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record.
Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents.
Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales?
Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those?
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you. | Julie Morgan thought there was a need for legislation to ban any physical punishment and this bill aimed at protecting children's rights. To ensure the effectiveness of the bill, there was an implementation group with representatives of the police, the crime commissioner, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the social service. Therefore, Julie Morgan was confident about the implementation of legislation. Furthermore, ongoing monitoring had been used to look for the view of the public and ongoing evaluation would come to practice in the next step. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Okay, welcome everyone to our next meeting. I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting, but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side. Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting, which is hereby opened. Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder, which was quite some typing. Um today we once again have uh three presentations, if I'm right, and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts. And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that. Okay, well
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation.
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: Um in the same order as last time?
Industrial Designer: W sure.
User Interface: Mm. Alright.
Project Manager: Okay. Well, take it away.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay uh welcome you all.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Components design, um {vocalsound} uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh {disfmarker} elaborate some of the things I did. I I elaborated on the concept. What should be um uh said about uh the components, uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls. Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um {vocalsound} you know from what uh the remote control's formed. Uh first of all, the case, the case, the surrounding of the of the the remote control. {vocalsound} I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about.
Marketing: Don't destroy my giraffe.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Giraffe's gone now.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay um the case was is made from rubber, I suppose. There's one of the {disfmarker} because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control
Marketing: Drop it.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option. But uh it's a very expensive material. Uh rubber is, I think, uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control. Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber. Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to {disfmarker} it lets lets itself colour. Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly. Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour, so if you scratch it it's still the same colour, perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged. But it's a very strong material. Um {vocalsound} I h I had an idea single covered uh curved, sorry, single curved.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh so it's t two dimensional. I think it's uh it's best to draw oh
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a colour. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: green.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bright colour. Fancy colour. Forward.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} New. Blank. Okay.
Marketing: You have to go t
Industrial Designer: Let's make it uh black. Okay. I thought of an idea like this. Oh {gap} that. {vocalsound} Um delete. Blank. Okay. So it also looks nice when it's on your table.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So you get uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table, but it's c it's stands.
Marketing: Oh it's a side view.
Industrial Designer: Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table. Um the graphical user interface and the buttons, uh we also thought about that already. Uh I thought about uh the L_C_D_ touch screen, which is uh is easy to clean too. One of the great uh advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some {gap} or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright. Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component.
Marketing: True.
Industrial Designer: So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons. Uh the batteries, uh we also thought about that already, uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh {vocalsound} the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that. Questions, {gap}?
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Marketing: No no no no no. Just looking.
Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting, not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use. And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television. Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements, there should be an advanced chip in it
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase, so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side. Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours. That was correct, wasn't it?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Okay. I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image, so yeah, it needs colour,
Industrial Designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind,
Project Manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: wasn't it? Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan?
Project Manager: It must be recognisable.
Industrial Designer: Okay okay. Well that's possible of course.
User Interface: You can put the R_ and R_. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We could make a little R_ and R_ {gap} on the top of the machine. Uh so they are {vocalsound} pretty boring, I suggest, because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours, so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting. And uh will buy uh {vocalsound} them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours. Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that, but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic, hard plastic or uh titanium. And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control, because it yeah it makes sense.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Well that's all about my uh my findings.
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you.
User Interface: I will go next.
Marketing: Mm mm mm. Next.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Alright so
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface. Uh how it should look. And uh {vocalsound} uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons, but only an L_C_D_ screen, so I had to uh look on that. And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of. Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition. And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you. And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker. And so that it you say uh good morning, uh coffee maker, and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer. Um perhaps it's useful,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and {gap} calls or something.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's true.
User Interface: And perhaps we could uh implement that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like
Industrial Designer: Oh my God. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: but I can't draw, so uh don't {vocalsound} make too much of it {vocalsound}. I tried to uh the L_C_D_ screen I tried to sort of to draw {gap}. I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume. I don't know if there is an icon for the program, but
Industrial Designer: Not just a P_.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: P_ yeah, just a P_.
User Interface: So uh
Industrial Designer: . . . {gap}
User Interface: and then the buttons above and uh below
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon. Um.
Marketing: Where's where's the button for two {gap}?
User Interface: I forgot that one. {vocalsound} I thought I forgot something,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: but uh {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh and uh the numbers, that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth.
Industrial Designer: Ah.
Marketing: Doesn't matter.
User Interface: Um an options button. And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options, I think. It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of uh thing.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: No.
User Interface: So could call it settings or something.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: But this is a bit uh how I thought it. And uh the L_C_D_ uh somewhere on the remote. Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should, so that it's better in your hand or something uh.
Industrial Designer: Oh okay,
User Interface: But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that.
Industrial Designer: yeah.
User Interface: Uh and then uh if you press the op options button, now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, {gap}.
User Interface: And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings. And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus. So they want to u use one button and then something happens, and not choose with uh this kind of uh {disfmarker} And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay.
User Interface: That's an option. And that was my uh finding dinge.
Project Manager: Thanks.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now our third
Industrial Designer: Go Danny, go Danny. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: team member with his presentation.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching. The trends from the past years, what the people like, what the youngsters like, what the elderly people liked about shapes, colours, material and stuff.'Kay. The method I used was {disfmarker} Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours, shapes, material they wanted uh from elderly and young people. So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself. Findings I made. The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy. The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative, okay, like the L_C_D_ screen that's {vocalsound} quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this. And the third thing is it should be easy to use. I think with only one menu, four button, channel, volume, it should also be enough for easy to use. The personal preferences for the young people, they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow, uh strawberry red and stuff.
Industrial Designer: Fruity? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Grass green.
Industrial Designer: Fruity. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Like that. The round shapes, and soft material m materials like the rubber.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay.
Marketing: It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's build it into a sponge.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown, red, deep reds and stuff. They liked square shapes with round edges. And hard materials like wood, um titanium. They those kind of materials they liked. This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours, innovative, all the colours you see, the blue, the red, the white, the yellow, that stuff. And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like
Project Manager: Oh y {vocalsound}
Marketing: this or something. It's it's a bit like a banana. And the colour should be yellow, or something.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: And for the elderly people just plain old. Because we decided to have two kind of remotes, two designs, or was it two colours?
User Interface: It was one remote, I think,
Marketing: Different colours, yeah.
User Interface: different colours.
Marketing: We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes. I think like my colleague, you said, is that's e better, or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something, with round squares. Simple but
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: easy to use.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} So that's it.
Project Manager: So for the older people, a more traditional uh form.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: That is my {disfmarker} Yeah, like the older o older colours I can maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: You could you could uh change the colours, that was also the idea. I don't know which shape you should should take,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: but.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Colours th the elderly people {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the uh remote control?
Project Manager: the shape of it.
User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle. Round but square. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, s
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: round corners, but s but square, yeah.
Project Manager: But maybe then both groups won't buy it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh i i if you do it uh uh square, with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i Do you know what I mean?
Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you mean, kind of like a {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} wait, like {vocalsound} like this {vocalsound} uh a bit.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: So it's a bit square, but it's also a bit uh round.
Industrial Designer: Kinda like a beer glass. {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: So but then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I know what you mean.
User Interface: Same sides. {vocalsound} But that's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's also easy to to have {vocalsound} to to put in your hand.
User Interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped, so that's uh {disfmarker} But perhaps that's a good thing,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: so that's easy to use. People know the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Will recognise that's as a remote control.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Look something like that {gap}. Autumn colours like red, brown.
Industrial Designer: Uh when I saw your d Oh.
Marketing: They liked the wood a lot.
Industrial Designer: Huh.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, kinda like old cars, uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance, medieval kind of things.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Swords. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let's put it all together.
Marketing: Those kind of {disfmarker} Yeah, those kind of things. So you see the big difference between the young people? Fresh, exciting.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: And the old people, old and boring.
User Interface: But that's easily to do with the colour, I think.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} Sorry?
User Interface: That's easy to do with the colours, I think.
Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah we think so too.
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Marketing: Because otherwise we have to {gap} get different shapes, and colour {gap} way easier than yeah the shapes. In material yeah rubber, rubber is, like I said, young people like more soft materials and spongy ones
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and the old people like {vocalsound} plain wood.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber, or soft rubber. Or something something between that.
User Interface: Yeah think uh {disfmarker} Also in between. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Soft rubber.
Marketing: Yeah {gap} soft rubber
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: which you can you can feel in it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you {disfmarker} Um.
User Interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it,
Marketing: Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It should shouldn't be {gap}.
Marketing: No. Or or wh what's something harder. No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something. That's the bit you can press it in,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: or something harder.
Industrial Designer: Uh.
User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber. This uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, something like this, yeah.
User Interface: But it's quite hard, this.
Marketing: Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: It's feels kind s spongy.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Spongy.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Something. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think it's rubber.
Marketing: No. N n n
Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh did you have something about uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Are you going to invite Sponge Bob, maybe he can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we should first decide about shape, I think.
Industrial Designer: Ding ding.
User Interface: Which uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I think that's the better thing to do. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it,
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: and can decide uh.
Industrial Designer: Um I also s uh can't help but notice {vocalsound} that you uh used an {disfmarker} you had a remote control {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was uh rather small. Um.
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like {disfmarker}
User Interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit
Industrial Designer: . . . This was your size,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger.
Marketing: Yeah three quarter of the of the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, three quarters. So uh so you don't have to put your {disfmarker} {vocalsound} oh.
Marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh new, blank. So uh when you get {vocalsound} this uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Ooh {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh kinda like this.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Or should it be larger?
Marketing: Larger I think.
Industrial Designer: Larger? Because you want to put your hands {disfmarker}
User Interface: But if you pu
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen.
Industrial Designer: You want
Marketing: becau because you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Perhaps that's best.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah okay, true, true, true true.
Industrial Designer: Your thumb here.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But not on the screen because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: that's uh that's an idea.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Looks a bit like a Game Boy now. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself, uh you'll {vocalsound} you'll always get some {disfmarker}
User Interface: You always touch it,
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Going to be very greasy and stuff.
Marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: One to zero, the two digit, {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah you don't want it too small. How yeah how large {disfmarker}
Marketing: You have to you have to {disfmarker} Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah they have thick fingers {gap}. But if you wanna make it in international, Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands
Marketing: Yeah true,
Industrial Designer: and we got these large {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} Yeah, we have we have the zoom option, right?
Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course, yeah. You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. And we won't include a a pen, or something to point,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: hey, we we want to do it with our fingers,
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: right?
Industrial Designer: Your fingers, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Y you could include a pen
Industrial Designer: You don't want uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use {disfmarker}
Marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen.
Project Manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that
Marketing: Yeah {gap} the fingers, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah o yeah {gap}, if they think it's handy to use a pen.
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen. I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this, or something.
Project Manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers, huh. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} You can do {gap} whatever uh any uh cloth.
Marketing: Yeah but that that can be {gap} with plain soft tissue. Yeah,
Project Manager: Okay well
Marketing: you can buy those at {disfmarker}
Project Manager: maybe, if I can interrupt you, maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision.
Industrial Designer: Sure.
Project Manager: So we can discuss these points. {gap} those points um energy question mark. How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how {disfmarker} are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put {gap} in it. Uh chip on print and case. Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here, but I hope you have ideas about them.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The docking station.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. So that's the the the first point.
Marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries
Project Manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting.
Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah. Just like with the telephone.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead
Industrial Designer: I kinda like your {disfmarker}
Marketing: then you can re you can uh change them.
Industrial Designer: Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice? Mouse. Computer mouse.
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah like those.
Industrial Designer: Kinda like those kind of batteries.
User Interface: {vocalsound} but it should be th I think normal batteries,
Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound}
User Interface: not not like two or two uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, normal plain you {disfmarker} No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Simple rechargeable uh batteries.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Um what was with the chip on print?
Industrial Designer: The chip on print? Um {disfmarker} Uh you gotta f Yeah. I think so. Chip on print with a with a {vocalsound} simple uh a sim not a simple but a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Print plate.
Industrial Designer: We also discussed that. Didn't we? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen? You still have a print plate.
Industrial Designer: Uh {gap}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah. You always have a print plate.
Industrial Designer: Beg your pardon?
Marketing: You always have a print plate,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, of course, yeah.
Marketing: right? Always, so {disfmarker} I dunno what w what we have to decide about that.
Project Manager: Yeah well it's a good question.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It just was in there
Industrial Designer: {gap} Well uh
Project Manager: and I didn't have any information about it,
Industrial Designer: chip on print, I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got, uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button.
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen, with no uh with not {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the buttons are not always on the same place,
Marketing: Yeah, okay. But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: for example if you enlarge a button, or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen, uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: When you got a regular button, th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay, but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: so that that's not of any discussion, I think.
Project Manager: Well you need some kind of C_P_U_, I guess.
Industrial Designer: {gap} I suppose so.
Marketing: Mm, I don't I dunno I don't think that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: Yeah because it has to uh b
Marketing: Yeah, it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen. I think they don't need that big of C_P_U_.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume.
Marketing: Yeah, okay, true true. True.
Industrial Designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the L_C_D_ screen.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And the case, yeah we already discussed the case,
User Interface: It's rubber.
Industrial Designer: we wanted to make it from rubber
User Interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this?
Industrial Designer: and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or softer rubber or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh hard rubber I think.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's the easy to ha uh to to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: It bounces back from the floor where you {vocalsound} throw it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah sure, look {vocalsound}.
Marketing: We have different colours.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah this in different colours?
Industrial Designer: D
Marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes? No I don't think, I think it's more round than square. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah it's a bit. But I think it should be a bit longer, perhaps.
Marketing: So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people.
Project Manager: Yeah. But that's what we want, {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah. I think so too.
Marketing: Yeah, that's our target. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's our main target.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Lower than forty years, I think
Industrial Designer: {gap} Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve?
Marketing: it was.
Industrial Designer: So i
Marketing: Oh yeah that that {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I thought that was a quite good
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off, of course.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah you have a fancy design, then, right away.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because it
Marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: you don't have to put it {disfmarker} get it in your hand, you can put it next to you
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: and then dive it in
User Interface: Yeah, that's a good idea.
Marketing: and {gap}. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's a lot easier.
User Interface: Yeah, alright.
Industrial Designer: So, so
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you got uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Did you write that down? Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured {vocalsound} remote control. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can't you You can't oh, you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, you can uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but I wrote it down. {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's pretty easy but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Marketing: And load it on the the user the server.
Project Manager: What about the user interface, there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: You you showed your drawing.
User Interface: I had what I just uh I should {gap} again. I miss a few buttons, but. Well. At least uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what we should also have on, I just remembered, um a menu to go back through the first uh {gap} if if you touch options, you can't go back to this uh right away now.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to go back. Yeah uh uh.
User Interface: This {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal?
User Interface: I don't know.
Marketing: With the minus and the plus.
User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think it's easier than {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't know. I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: but I don't know what they think.
Industrial Designer: Sorry? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical?
Marketing: For sound and channel.
User Interface: Th
Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen. If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter. If you make it uh in a rectangle {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right well if we make it like this, I think if you
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I so it's it's it's it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: put it like this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Square. {gap}
Marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like {disfmarker} Oh a button uh minus here, plus over here. A minus here, plus over here.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh, okay.
Marketing: And on here.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: The other buttons and on here {vocalsound} the top.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: The options and then you have something like uh the P_ over here,
User Interface: But I think I wou
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: and the sound.
User Interface: I think that's a matter of what you're used to.
Marketing: Something uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think I would put a plus and a min uh here. And then the P_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle.
Industrial Designer: Uh. {gap}
Marketing: Something like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sh
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Take your time. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Plus minus plus uh {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: minus.
User Interface: but I think when you are holding it, you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus.
Marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb.
User Interface: Yeah but I think {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know. {vocalsound} Perhaps I have some examples.
Industrial Designer: W
User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Who's the usability engineering?
User Interface: That's me.
Marketing: She is. {gap}
User Interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface:'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh.
User Interface: The {disfmarker}'Cause they can use that better.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Consistency.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh {gap} {disfmarker} I have that those s numbers.
User Interface: I {disfmarker} Here is our {disfmarker} here are uh
Marketing: Or a good watch.
User Interface: I don't really know.
Marketing: B
Project Manager: Everybody's searching in his data.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Channel selection. Per hour one hundred and sixty eight. Volume selection four times an hour
User Interface: Yeah but {gap} {disfmarker} But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So not how much {disfmarker} n not how often it's used, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: W what's what's usual or normal.
Marketing: Yeah, that depends on on on the remote.
User Interface: Yes I'm looking here. But here's it's below,
Industrial Designer: Uh.
User Interface: here also, and now here's here's next to each other.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: I think it's {gap} it's a {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think {gap} because I have two televisions at home. One is horizontal, one is vertical,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah it does it doesn't really matter,
Marketing: so it depends.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Depends.
Industrial Designer: Uh.
User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other, because you go higher and down.
Marketing: Yeah, lower.
User Interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other, because you would go further and back.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: That's how it's is usually {gap} when I look here
Marketing: True.
User Interface: that's what I see.
Industrial Designer: Okay, um. Let's cut to the chase. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got to change.
Project Manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons
User Interface: I don't know.
Project Manager: just the
Marketing: Yeah is it is user interface.
Project Manager: concepts.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Component.
User Interface: This concept is in the actual design, but you should know where you would place a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay, well le Yeah. Interface, yeah.
User Interface: And the speech uh shall we implement that? Or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology, huh?
Industrial Designer: Technologies, uh.
Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that, where are you, but then it says I'm here.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. But then you should also find a place {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Makes it possible to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something. You can talk into the corner.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah, a microphone, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Not even necessary,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: because a lotta {disfmarker} you can make a very sensitive microphone, so it makes it possible to uh {vocalsound} just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh
User Interface: Yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, that's also {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: over there.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: So, in the middle or something.
Industrial Designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: because yeah, it doesn't matter where the microphone is.
User Interface: {gap} but you should uh decide where you want to put it.
Industrial Designer: Ah okay, sure, okay,
User Interface: Right? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: well tha
Marketing: Um I think where it isn't seen
Industrial Designer: Underneath? {gap} Indeed. It shouldn't be uh very uh visible.
Marketing: the most.
User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Inside.
Project Manager: Yeah. Well
Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, why no
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out
Marketing: I i between the round of the R_.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote, huh, the the speech control.
User Interface: Yeah. So where do you want to put it?
Marketing: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah actually it does {vocalsound} because it you can you can find it better if you use it.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah
User Interface: It's a way for you to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: bu but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh.
User Interface: So it makes more sense just'cause other remotes don't have that.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: But are we talking about the button, or about the microphone?
User Interface: About a microphone,
Project Manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing,
User Interface: there is no button.
Project Manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Where isn't {disfmarker} i it isn't most in sight.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well put it there. I don't mind. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That doesn't doesn't really matter.
Marketing: No. Actually doesn't.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So?
User Interface: Alright. Any more uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So well uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Interface type.
Project Manager: type, supplements, anything. Yeah, well we already s discussed that, huh, the the L_C_D_
Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ yeah,
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} I think {disfmarker} I thought the, like you said, like scroll {vocalsound} next to the remote isn't that handy.
Industrial Designer: yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. {gap}
Marketing: I think it's better to just {gap} up what you'd like to do on the screen. If you want to go back you have to back button go back,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu.
Industrial Designer: Hey,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um yeah. Yeah
Industrial Designer: {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh
Industrial Designer: Use the scroll. Yeah I think so too.
Marketing: Yeah? You do like it?
Industrial Designer: So why not, on on side.
User Interface: Or at least {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll, but the menu {gap} they like most, and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Fast, yeah. So if you've got a settings, if you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster. Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options,
Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound}
Marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then {disfmarker}
User Interface: But you have {disfmarker} it's f uh
Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options,
User Interface: we have five or four or something.
Industrial Designer: because when you use {disfmarker} Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television, you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen.
Marketing: Y
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, true.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down,
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or. Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use.
Marketing: {gap} Okay, no problem.
Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: which you can touch
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's also different. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay. Well there's our five minutes uh warning. Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components, everyone?
Marketing: Um. No, colours are clear,
Project Manager: Everybody think they can can
Marketing: shape is clear, material is clear.
Industrial Designer: Okay, what's the standard colour?
Project Manager: work for that?
Marketing: And a standard,
Project Manager: Is there a standard colour?
Marketing: yeah we don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I I
Marketing: no we have different colour.
Industrial Designer: You got you got different colours,
Marketing: How many colours are we going to {disfmarker}
User Interface: You should you should have a black one
Industrial Designer: but you should have a standard colour.
User Interface: because uh I think black is standard.
Marketing: Black. Yeah, black I think is is the standard.
Industrial Designer: Black? With the with the yellow uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But if you want to be different, then uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Dark grey, something like this this colour or something.
Industrial Designer: Just a regular uh remote colour.
Marketing: Yeah like like yeah.
Industrial Designer: And then have uh different covers uh to use.
Marketing: Or or silver. I think it's better to have silver nowadays.
User Interface: Silver.
Industrial Designer: Silver, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: I think you see more silver than black.
Industrial Designer: You see a lot of t uh silver televisions.
Project Manager: But still silver and black are {disfmarker} well
User Interface: Silver rubber. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah the the silver black are our main colours. Yeah.
Project Manager: silver is new but also traditional, so uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think we have silver, black and between those {vocalsound} is like I dunno s five colours between them or something.
Project Manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing, I mean it
Industrial Designer: Yeah y I think it's better to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow, we have.
Project Manager: could be ugly, but it's definitely fancy.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But
Marketing: R red.
Industrial Designer: Yeah th yeah. That's right.
User Interface: yeah.
Industrial Designer: But if you use uh silver, uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy.
Marketing: Green, wood, brown. Yeah. True.
Industrial Designer: When you use titanium, silver is fancy,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but when you use silver rubber, it isn't fancy. Silver has to shine, and rubber doesn't shine.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You understand? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, I understand.
Project Manager: Yeah I would think about colours like uh red, yellow, green, blue,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah o of course.
Project Manager: just {disfmarker}
Marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours, like red and brown, {gap} dark red and brown.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Just all kind of colour.
Industrial Designer: Fruity. Fruity loops.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Maroon. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one, or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Who's pinging?
User Interface: Is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You are pingin
Marketing: No {gap}.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I thought we
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You ping. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so uh that wraps it up? Everybody knows uh what to do?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Well I wrote it down here. I wrote it down here what to do um.
User Interface: Well I don't know what to do,
Industrial Designer: Well not what to do. Not what to do.
User Interface: but. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes. Um here are the individual actions,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board,
User Interface: Ooh. {vocalsound} Right.
Marketing: S
Project Manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: tough. We'll be available.
User Interface: But do we have to {disfmarker} We'll work together, but do we have to stay here, or do we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: I don't know. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thin I think we should work {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Okay well that was what I had to say, uh,
User Interface: Yeah I think {gap}.
Project Manager: final thoughts from anyone, or?
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: We're finished.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Okay, well thank you very much.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Thank you very much.
Marketing: Finished.
User Interface: So we have to keep talking English now? {vocalsound} | Project Manager began a conceptual design meeting with the group, they discussed the components design, interface design at first. In the presentation, material, colour, type and supplement were referred. Then marketing shared the watch trend over the past and future, and thought young and old people's different tastes should be taken into consideration when designed. After that, the group made a discussion about the remote control concept. The final decision about remote control was made by a round shape and green colour with speech recognition and LCD screen to appeal to the target population. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Okay um, welcome to our detailed design meeting. I'm pretty excited. Let's start it's approximately fifteen forty or something like that. Okay um the agenda {disfmarker} we're gonna do an opening and then um I'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting, what we d discussed um, then we'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria. We'll look at the finances and finally a {disfmarker} do a production evaluation and close. So, starting off with the um last {disfmarker} the last one, oh I don't have it here um, but we talked about energy, we're gonna use a kinetic battery um, we want to use a simple chip, because we're not gonna need a a shuffle um, we're gonna need a scroll um, we're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that's curved and um we're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu. And it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons, including five pre-set channels. Okay? Let's do the look and feel design presentation first.
User Interface: Right, do you wanna start?
Industrial Designer: Right, well we made three different prototypes and I guess we'll start with with this one. Um we have our colours not {disfmarker} are not fixed, but this is the general shape. Um it's {disfmarker} you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it's easily adaptable to either hand. You can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone, or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand, or even {disfmarker} I mean there's a whole variety, you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger. Uh we have the on off button at the tip, very visible, very big. We have our up and down buttons, which are also gonna be our channel selectors, and we have our little menu button here. If you push {disfmarker} if you're just pushing these normally, they're the menu buttons, if {disfmarker} uh the volume buttons rather. If you press select once, they become channel changing buttons. If we press select three times, the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your T_V_ channel choices shows up, and you have your five presets down here. Um if people wanna grab hold of that, see how it feels in your hand. That's our number one prototype. Um do you wanna present the potato,
Project Manager: {gap} like a little lightning in it.
Industrial Designer: or shall I present the Martian?
User Interface: Okay,
Project Manager: The little lightning bolt in it, very cute.
User Interface: um {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} We call that one the rhombus,
Marketing: I could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The v the rhombus rhombus?
User Interface: uh the rhombus.
Industrial Designer: That's the rhombus, yep.
User Interface: Um this one is known as the potato, uh it's
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's a {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: how can I present it? It's an ergonomic shape, so it it fits in your hand nicely. Um it's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand. Um I've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one. Um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume. So you've got volume up and volume down on the other side here. Um the red ones are for uh changing channels, channel up and channel down and that's um moves between your favourite channels that you've selected. Uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that's basically it, that's the potato.
Project Manager: Um on, off?
User Interface: Uh that would be one of your channels, basically,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off,
Project Manager: Yeah we turn it off.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: Could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button?
User Interface: Um not really,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off, to turn your T_V_ off.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: If you pressed and held it maybe.
User Interface: Yeah yeah, that that'd be one way of doing it, yeah. That'd work, yeah.
Marketing: If you like held it down, that would be on off.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. On off, that's a possibility, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And then finally we have um the Martian or the pear, either way. Um it's a bit different, just a little bit more of a creative feel. Uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top. {vocalsound} We have the five preset seeds {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional, you have your channel changing, volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle. So, that's for your consideration as well, plus it's an interesting talking point to have standing up.
User Interface: Let's pass.
Industrial Designer: We figured it could stand up like this on your table, if you wanted it to, if I made the bot the bottom flat. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry, what's the yellow one in the middle,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh the menu select button. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I forgot.
Project Manager: {gap} Very interesting. {vocalsound} I think that one's my favourite.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So that's {disfmarker} So that's our three prototypes. Um basically, in terms of making decisions, what we'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want, then decide what kind of button layout we want, how many buttons, and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wanna put any text on the device, like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: We were we were thinking that normally we'd go for fruity colours, but maybe we're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man, for an example customer, might not want a fruity coloured remote, so m maybe we'd have one version that's a bit toned down,
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it. Yeah, something still a little bright to make it hard to lose, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Would {disfmarker} Yeah, but we don't want it to look like a kids'toy {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah.
Project Manager: Now that was one thing that we brought up over email. I don't know if you picked up your email, but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. Well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive, that it {disfmarker} it's not just like another piece of technology around your house. It's gonna be somewhere that it can be seen.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So we're we're not thinking that it's gonna be as critical to have the loss {disfmarker}
Marketing: But if it's like under covers or like in a couch you still can't see it.
Project Manager: It's really {disfmarker} Would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like I dunno, you tape to your to your T_V_ um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off? Do you think that would be conceptually possible?
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think it would be difficult technologically,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: because if your if your remote's lost it's probably under the settee and in that case you can't you can't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it,
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: s so it's {disfmarker} I'm not quite sure how it would work
Project Manager: That's true, mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: and then I wonder if it's if it's more just a gimmick then anything else. Uh I mean ho how many times do you really, seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it?
Industrial Designer: There might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something, but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, that's a fair evaluation. Getting lost. Um we {disfmarker} so we do we've decided not to worry about that for now. Okay'cause {disfmarker} well, the designs are very bright, so you're right, they're gonna stick out, but um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality? Um.
Marketing: I feel like this is simil {vocalsound} or it's sort of what already exists so if we're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun, even though this is like what you're init I'm initially drawn to, just'cause it's like comfortable and like not different. I sort of like this one, like I I don't know why, it just it's like small but still sort of like cute looking, I dunno. But I also like the b the side buttons on that one, like I think that's kind of neat.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: But I dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable, sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off? So then w we wouldn't have to have like a dual function?
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah,
User Interface: Yeah, it's possible, yeah, yeah.
Marketing: Ah,
Industrial Designer: that's good, that's good.
Marketing: there we go.
Industrial Designer: Here, stick it on.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Put an extra the button on {gap} {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Sure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um uh why don't we do a product evaluation using your criteria, if you've developed some?
Marketing: Well do we w {vocalsound} like I think we're supposed to have one that we do it for.
Project Manager: Oh okay. Okay.
Marketing: That was {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So where {disfmarker}
Marketing: I was a little vague on what exactly I'm supposed to do, but let me {disfmarker} I have to like write something on the whiteboard, so.
Project Manager: Okay. Do you need this
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or just write on the white board?
Marketing: No, I actually don't have like a PowerPointy thing,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Marketing:'cause I think it would be redundant.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: I dunno.
Project Manager: It's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ooh.
Project Manager: you know,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Cool.
Project Manager: kinda push it {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hey.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe a little smaller than that {gap}.
Industrial Designer: No, I kinda like it.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's hard to miss.
User Interface: It makes look more fruity as well.
Project Manager: Oh it does,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's kind of like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's like a deformed foot, I dunno. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There it could have a stem like that,'cause I do l kind of like the stem.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. It almost helps you ge keep a grip too,'cause it goes in between fingers {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Interesting.
Project Manager: I like this one.
Industrial Designer: Okay,
Project Manager: Variety of colours are nice.
Industrial Designer: is that where people are leaning then, the potato? I like the idea of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think I'm leaning towards the potato.
Industrial Designer: I mean that's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down, that one.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. I am worried about like um using a menu. Um in that {disfmarker} like i withing menus there are submenus, and so how do you get back to the main menu?
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well that {disfmarker} on the iPod, for example, you just {disfmarker} every time you wanna go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level.
Project Manager: But that has a menu button separate from a select button, whereas if this one's both the menu and the select button?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Good point.
User Interface: This is, it's {disfmarker} the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: You find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Could these be used for going to submenus
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, so they're used for going into and out of your submenus, yeah.
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe {disfmarker} yeah,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: maybe it can be one of those, if you press down and hold for two seconds, then it brings you back one level or something.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, as long as we have that in mind as we're designing it still, mm'kay.
Marketing: Okay, so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities, the yellowy one is that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The potato? Are we leaning towards the potato?
User Interface: Potato.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think so.
Marketing: Okay, well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: So basically what we need to do is some of the things that we've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: So what we sort of wanna do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then I'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: So we'll just go through them one at a time and we'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all, or false, if the remote that we've created conforms to the following criteria. So we can do this one first. First we wanna know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective. So like in my opinion the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} for now at least, the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so I'm gonna say it's like a three. That's just my opinion.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: What does {vocalsound} each of you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I I kind of think it's it's unique enough that I'd give it a one or a two.
Marketing: Okay, well give it a number,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: sorry {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: I will give it a one.
Industrial Designer: Um I dunno if it's it's creative. I dunno if fancy is the word I would use. I dunno if any of them are fancy in {disfmarker} I'd say two, because c unique.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: I'll go for two.
Marketing: And two, awesome. Alright, and same sort of scale for functionality, is it functional? I think it's extremely functional, I'm gonna give it a one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, one.
Marketing: One?
User Interface: I think it's it's functional, it's also pretty basic, so I'll give it a two.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Um functional. I think it'll get everything done, I think it might be a little confusing at first, um, I don't know if that's gonna be a later one.
Marketing: Okay. Well there's some other ones, I will address that,
Project Manager: Okay, then I'm gonna give it a two.
Marketing: yeah. Awesome, okay. Um we wanna know next if it's technologically innovative.
Project Manager: Did you give a functional {gap}?
Marketing: Yeah, she said it was one.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um is it technologically innovative? Mm. Not really, I mean not so much,'cause we we don't have the L_C_D_ screen, we don't have fancy chip. Other than what it looks like, I dunno if it's really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, the kinetic battery.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} In the battery, that's it.
Marketing: I kinetic battery is a big one, so.
Industrial Designer: How many people would notice that, though?
Marketing: Mm. But it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But they'll notice it after like a year,
Marketing: but we know it's there.
Project Manager: they'll be like hey, I have never changed the battery.
Marketing: And if it's made of like latex, that whole idea, that's pretty cool.
Project Manager: Mm. Just the material.
Marketing: I'll give it a three.'Cause it {disfmarker} we could've picked a lot of features that would've made it really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I I would say that it's {disfmarker} Yeah, like fancy versus creative it's it's different. But does that equal innovative? I dunno. I'll give it a three.
Marketing: Alright. Everyone else?
User Interface: I'd say it's technologically it's not it's not unique, I mean it's it's just {disfmarker} it is just pushbuttons um, so I I'd give it a four.
Project Manager: Think I'm gonna go with the four as well.
Marketing: Mm'kay.
Project Manager: I really like that kinetic battery though.
Marketing: Next, is it easy to use? Just so you know, easy to learn will be separate,
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Marketing: so don't overlap them.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: I think it's really easy to use. I'll give it a two.
Industrial Designer: Um I'll give it a one. Pretty hard to mess up.
User Interface: I'll say one.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh let's say two.
Marketing: Alright. Um we next wanna see if it has a spongy quality
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and {vocalsound} if indeed it's made of latex or rubber I {disfmarker} it's spongy all the way. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Give it a one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: I wonder if it bounces when you drop it.
Industrial Designer: Ooh, that you couldn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it'd be harder to break,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: harder to lose. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Cause there would be less impact maybe, {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: Iain, what do you give it?
User Interface: I'd I'd give it a one.
Marketing: Alright and the next is, does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables {vocalsound}?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh um {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Well, is it gonna be yellow?
Industrial Designer: It it might be,'cause that's our corporate colour, isn't it?
Project Manager: That's right, yeah, corporate colour, we didn't keep that in {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: um well
Industrial Designer: We might wanna keep it yellow.
Project Manager: if we {disfmarker} I know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing, but if we had all the buttons in black, and a design in {disfmarker} and the outside in yellow, that'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours, one a more conservative one, one that's more fruity.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah, but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um and can we have like an R_R_ inscribed on the bottom or something?
Industrial Designer: If we had a yellow {disfmarker} Sure.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh, yeah.
Project Manager: Fruity, so fruity.
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright, so I think it it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it was inspired by the potato, so I think it's pretty fruity.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think i it's kind of mangoey too.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh, mango
User Interface: Mangoey is better, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: that that {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: I like mangoes {vocalsound}.
Marketing: okay, I'm giving it a one {vocalsound} the mango {gap} put me over.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: That's a much more trendy than a potato {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} What are {disfmarker} what's everyone's numbers?
Industrial Designer: one.
User Interface: Uh two.
Project Manager: One.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright um, and does the design match the appropriate behaviour? Remember earlier we discussed that people don't use a lot of buttons, that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most. I think we really took that into account a lot, so I'm gonna give it a one.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, me too.
User Interface: Uh one.
Marketing: Did you say one, Rose?
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: Okay um, also we talked earlier about R_S_I_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like Carpal Tunnely kind of thing. Do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account? I think I'll give it a two,'cause I almost feel like no matter what you do, something is gonna happen.
Project Manager: It's gonna be hard.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: And if it's repetitive movement it is gonna be only four buttons that you're constantly pushing, but um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um um worth the risk, I think.
Project Manager: I like how it fits in the hand though so I I'd go with a two.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'll I'll say two as well. Because older people that aren't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I'll I'll say two.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright, awesome. And the ease of learning it. I know you were saying that you're a little bit nervous about that, I dunno. It sort of reminds me of the iPod. I just got mine, I still haven't read the instruction book and I'm doing okay, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: and I'm not good at learning technology. So I'll give it a two.
Industrial Designer: The menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing, but I think if it's one it's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out, but you'll have it afterwards.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So I'd I think I'd give it a two I guess.
User Interface: I think it it's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn, because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are
Industrial Designer: Oh, good point.
User Interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first, but
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: once you've, yeah once you'd learned how to use it, I think it is a lot easier. So I'd I'd give it a four.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: I think I'd give it a four too. It's a pretty high learning curve, it'll be easy once you've done it, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Alright, um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we're not addressing that at all, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, so in terms of not losing it, do you think that on a scale of one to seven, how easy or hard is it to lose? I'm gonna I'm gonna give it a four,'cause I think that you can still {disfmarker} if it's in between somewhere where you can't see it, you're kind of not gonna find it,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: but anywhere else it's gonna stand out.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um I'd say I'd give it uh a three, I guess it depends on how tidy you are normally.
Project Manager: Mm I'd give it a four.
User Interface: Um I'll give it a five'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that, yeah.
Project Manager: Small too.
Marketing: Alright, we also said simplicity, {vocalsound} how w how well does it address just being simple?
Industrial Designer: Simple to use or simple in design? Do you know?
Marketing: I think overall,'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so those are the next two things we're gonna look at. Separate from fancy, like that sort of thing.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Marketing: Um it like wants to be simple but it's not like totally totally simple, so I'm gonna give it a two.
Industrial Designer: I'm {gap} give it a three I guess.
User Interface: I'll give it a two.
Project Manager: Three.
Marketing: Alright, and fashionable?
Project Manager: It's totally fashionable. I'd give it a one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's hot, I mean it's a mango, come on.
Project Manager: Mango.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean how fashionable can you make a remote? I think it's bringing technology and fashion together real really well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I dunno.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think it's quite as fashionable as my robot remote
Project Manager: I do like uh the little Martian one. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: or alien or whatever he was.
Marketing: Yeah, the toggle on off switch, it's really appealing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Number.
Industrial Designer: Um two.
User Interface: Three.
Project Manager: One.
Marketing: And does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal, that whole thing? Just that it would se serve our audience. I don't see why not.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. I think as long {disfmarker} if we offer in a {disfmarker} in at least three different colour arrangements. Um yeah, that's good.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So I'll give it a a two {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I'll say two.
Marketing: Alright, did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we didn't talk about?
Project Manager: Well um we didn't we didn't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo, so let's let's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an R_R_ on it.
Industrial Designer: Shall we uh {disfmarker} Well I think all of them should have an R_R_.
Project Manager: All of them should have R_R_, yeah.
Marketing: And so we're gonna do that, so it will address it,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm'kay.
Marketing: fine. Okay.
Project Manager: Lovely.
Marketing: That's me.
Project Manager: Okay, now we're gonna look at finances. Um I have an Excel sheet that we're actually gonna calculate the cost um, so let me exit out of this first. Okay um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh my. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Whoa.
Project Manager: I know. Let me {gap} one more space. Gonna zoom in real quick. {gap} Okay. Hand dynamo. We're using kinetic battery,
Industrial Designer: Uh we're n using kinetic, yeah.
Project Manager: right? Um and we're having one per {disfmarker} One, okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um electronics.
Industrial Designer: Single.
Project Manager: Simple.
Industrial Designer: Simple, simple rather.
Marketing: Simple.
Project Manager: Mm'kay. Um the case.
Industrial Designer: Uh uh uh double-curved.
User Interface: Guess it's double-curved. It is pretty curvy.
Project Manager: It's very curvy,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so okay. {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I never did get a picture of those so I don't really know. Our case material supplements {disfmarker} oops, we just skipped by them.
Marketing: Well don't we need plastic, and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, we we {disfmarker} the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed. The supplement is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Provided, okay.
Project Manager: The wood?
Industrial Designer: Oh, I guess it was rubber rather than latex.
Project Manager: I mean the rubber.
Marketing: It was rubber and special colour, right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, okay.
Marketing: Do we have more than one special colour?
Project Manager: Yeah, we're using {disfmarker} we're gonna need at least two special colours.
Industrial Designer: Uh well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Special colours, isn't it?
Project Manager: Um.
Industrial Designer: I don't know what the se the basic colour is though.
Marketing: Per {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I dunno where it {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Well, but we know that we're having at least three colours,
Project Manager: So let's y say three.
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, are we talking about on each colour combination or are we, you know, we'll {disfmarker} like we'll have yellow and black. Is that two special colours?
Project Manager: Yeah, I dunno. That I thi
Industrial Designer: Or or is white and black, then two more or {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I thought that would be under yours.
Industrial Designer: Uh. I guess it's three,
Project Manager: We'll just say three.
Industrial Designer: three three {gap}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: Maybe the R_R_ will be in colour as well,
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: so yeah. Interface, we're doing push buttons. And how many buttons do we have?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: We have six.
User Interface: We've got five {gap}.
Project Manager: Six.
Industrial Designer: Six, with the power.
User Interface: Oh {gap}
Marketing: Oh
User Interface: six.
Marketing: no, five. {gap}
Project Manager: Anything else?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. No. Oh, we'll {disfmarker} do we wa Are the buttons in special colour, special f I didn't get information on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh,
Marketing: Oh wait.
Project Manager: buttons {disfmarker} oh, so um. So the case material will just have one colour, right,
Industrial Designer: Well,
Project Manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours?
Industrial Designer: does it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but if we're making multiple varieties of {disfmarker} this is where I'm getting confused.
Project Manager: We're saying per unit.
Industrial Designer: {gap} per unit, okay, okay.
Marketing: Yeah, per unit.
Project Manager: Okay, so each unit will only have one colour on their {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright, and each button s
Project Manager: but the case is {disfmarker} could have up to thr I mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours,'cause that how it's designed there.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I like it like that.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: Special form? They're all kind of just push button,
Industrial Designer: No,
Project Manager: right?
Industrial Designer: I think they're fine.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Special material?
Industrial Designer: Material, we want them rubber as well probably, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh. Oh do {disfmarker} I have to do it per button, do I?
Industrial Designer: No, I don't think so. I think they're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: if they're all gonna be rubber then it {disfmarker} that's what it matters.
Marketing: Yeah,'cause it wouldn't make sense otherwise,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing:'cause for the whole mat case material it's only one.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: It's {disfmarker} I mean it's two to make it rubber.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Oh wait, so maybe.
Project Manager: Thirteen point seven.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh oh.
Project Manager: Yeah, what can we reduce?
Industrial Designer: Okay, let's have our buttons all be one colour.
Marketing: Mm, I kind of like the buttons.
Project Manager: Let's see what that would do. It's only gonna bring us down to thirteen point three anyway.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright.
Project Manager: Okay um, are we sure this is double-curved?
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Project Manager: Maybe it's single-curved,
Industrial Designer: We have no idea.
Project Manager: we have no idea.
Industrial Designer: I dunno, I didn't get any pictures. {vocalsound} It's single curved.
Marketing: It's single curved.
Industrial Designer: Why not?
Project Manager: Well it's not the {disfmarker} yeah. Okay, it's the kinetic battery that's kind of expensive, but we have a simple chip, single curve,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: case material is rubber and it's a special colour,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but that's important. Six buttons {disfmarker} we have to have six buttons.
Industrial Designer: That is important. How did it get more expensive, what did you just change?
Project Manager: What?
Industrial Designer: It was it was thirteen and now it's fifteen.
Project Manager: No, okay, maybe not. I don't know what just happened. Now it's twelve.
Marketing: We
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: What was our target price again?
Project Manager: Twelve point five.
Industrial Designer: Twelve point five. Hey hey.
User Interface: Twelve point five. So we're just just about there.
Project Manager: So we're okay, I think.
Industrial Designer: We're all set then.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Ish.
Project Manager: Okay, we're all set.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: Um save. I saved that to our um our big shared folder, so you know. Um okay, back to agenda. {vocalsound} Um are the {disfmarker} are the costs under twelve fifty Euro? Yes.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, they are.
Project Manager: Let's move on to the project evaluation. Project process. Satisfaction with for example the room for creativity, leadership, teamwork, the means, any new ideas found. So I guess what we're gonna talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project, the information we got on the news, how we used it, if we were able to um, you know, use our creativity with the information, um how how well I guess I led it, um the {disfmarker} how well we worked together as a team, um the digital pens, the whiteboard.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well. I felt very creative. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we've been successful
Industrial Designer: I enjoyed making the prototypes.
User Interface: in that we've achieved almost all of the design goals that we've set {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: and we've come up with a finished project and we just about got {gap} cost.
Industrial Designer: I think we could've done even better with a little bit more information,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: like what's a single-curved case, how many colours, what do colours count
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: things, but given given what we had I think that we did we did really well. Um I think we worked together pretty well.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, I mean {vocalsound} if I'd had more market research on the {gap} fruits and vegetables, maybe we could've taken that into account.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But the fruits and vegetables, they really {gap} my creativity, so.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I know, I really did, the the whole mango idea was great.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Do you think we could {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, I mean I thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally, like its heaviness, and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages, I dunno. That was a bit of a distraction.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That was the last one, like I chose not to do a PowerPoint'cause I didn't think it made sense to, so I liked that I had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. I think we all made um very significant contributions,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't think anybody dominated it, which I thought was really good, like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and I uh I tried to facilitate it without like taking over, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: I like our little finished products.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Can we market this as the mango remote?
Marketing: {vocalsound} They're funny.
Project Manager: Really cute.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I kind of want one.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Should we have that somewhere on the packaging? I have a little R_R_.
Marketing: I'm trying to think of a good pun that I could add there {gap}.
Project Manager: I know,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: let's think of it like a little jingle.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I like the R_R_, that's gonna be etched in.
Industrial Designer: Yes. Hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it's quite a useful little gadget. All thanks to Iain for the design of that one.
Project Manager: {gap}. Okay um
Industrial Designer: Mm. What did we find for new ideas?
Project Manager: new ideas found?
Industrial Designer: People should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables.
Project Manager: Definitely. Or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: etcetera.
Industrial Designer: I I am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them.
Project Manager: Oh, I'm so excited.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, I didn't even know they existed.
Industrial Designer: I I knew you can get watches that had them, like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery,'cause you're always moving your wrist.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But in other things, I think it'd be really good.
Project Manager: I thi yeah, that's awesome. Um okay, closing. Are the costs within the budget? Is the project evaluated?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Now there's the final questionnaire and meeting summary. Um so, this is the great product kids, I think we've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it, um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: which we hope um {disfmarker} yeah. Make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, Real Reaction.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I do like the Martian remote.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If we could choose more than one, that would be my second choice.
Marketing: Oh, that would definitely be my second choice.
Project Manager: Although the tog toggle
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm afraid I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's cool. Let's all let's all go for the yellow {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I would break it. {vocalsound} I would break it.
Project Manager: It's cool. I think I would break it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It started because I wanted to have it as st as a stem
User Interface: Break the stem off.
Industrial Designer: and then {vocalsound} {disfmarker} alright, so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh that's funny {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Is {disfmarker} it started as a pear, but then it started looking more and more like a Martian
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh
Industrial Designer: when I put the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Kind of looks like a penguin, like {vocalsound} with no eye {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Take me to your leader. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah, it's kind of a penguin.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: I like that it stands up.
Project Manager: Mm-mm.
Industrial Designer: Wow, maybe I should market it to some remote control company now.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So are are {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That was bound to happen. $
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh, sad.
Industrial Designer: poor little thing. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm'kay, congratulations. Um. Anything else to say?
Marketing: Nothing will come up until after our meeting's supposed to be over,
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: its all timed.
Project Manager: Um anybody have {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I got more master classes, anybody else wanna like take a master's class?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's really funny that you got spam in your work emails.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, but check it out. So like there are all these like links, they don't go anywhere.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But all that you need to keep in mind your {gap} knowledge management. Um just wanna make sure you do.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No the first one that you sent like I didn't realise that it was a joke and I was like why did she send this to us?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's very it's very work relevant,
Project Manager: It is.
Marketing:'cause people send spam a lot.
Project Manager: Yes definitely {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Let's see,
Project Manager: I'm very sad that I didn't get any links to the corporate website. {gap}.
Marketing: Oh here you can you can view.
Industrial Designer: what did I get through the corporate website? It's just inspiration about circuit boards.
Marketing: You can just see what's up.
Project Manager: Wow.
Marketing: Yeah it's it's really deep. Hold on. Takes a little while to get excited to load. That {disfmarker} the Excel thing is pretty cool.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is pretty neat.
Project Manager: I love Excel,
Marketing: Here, like, basically
Project Manager: it's one of my favourite programs.
Marketing: it's like inspiration, basically I'm gonna give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing, see. You didn't miss out that much.
Project Manager: I see, mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit, talking about circuit boards.
Project Manager: Spongy.
Industrial Designer: I learned a lot actually.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: I could probably take apart a remote control now if I really needed to.
Marketing: Oh wow. This one was cooler. I got a whole table and everything.
Industrial Designer: Now I have all about circuits and chips and transponders and {disfmarker} I wrote it all down, because I thought it would be relevant, like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control, but then they're like, you don't actually need this {disfmarker} you just need to talk about the case.
Marketing: That's like mine it was like, would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen or a multifunction remote control? And then it didn't have like any kind of table, like awesome, I'm glad they asked that question and didn't report the result {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: I I thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing.
Industrial Designer: It's really interesting though. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We had a lot of the um {disfmarker} otherwise the technology {gap} today was kinda cool.
User Interface: I think. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That was really neat how I got emails
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: We didn't we didn't use the whiteboard that much.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Project Manager: Although I don't see how we could have very l at least for me
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} yeah. If I'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case, the different looks of the case, I would have probably drawn them up,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Cause we weren't like voting on anything and I think usually, like whiteboards are good, you know like crossing out ideas, or like if we had had like a brainstorming period.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, we could've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but with only four people it doesn't really make sense.
Marketing: But I thought we were good orally.
Project Manager: And with and with the PowerPoint that we can all look at, like you can do all those things pretty much on PowerPoint
Industrial Designer: I think if you had a larger group {disfmarker}
Marketing: Get crazy.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: as that's not as necessary to have.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And these might've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing:'cause we all needed them separately, kind of on the whiteboards in this room.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Because we're all gonna be working in different places.
Marketing: {gap} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} if we were all gonna stay in here all the time, then having the notes up on the whiteboard would've been alright,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but everyone needs their own, like specific notes, I guess.
Project Manager: Now when you were um creating your um prototypes here, did you work together or did you like do separate projects?
User Interface: Uh we we worked together,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design.
Industrial Designer: So it was a bit of both really, we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and I came up with that rhombus shape
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey, mangoey shape, and then just went from there really.
Project Manager: Cool.
Industrial Designer: It was fun. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So well done with the management, I felt well managed.
Project Manager: Oh thanks.
User Interface: I think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time,
Project Manager: It's kinda fun.
User Interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: And I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That happened to me all the time though.
User Interface: I know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: But I think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points {gap} at the end of the meetings, so that we we knew where to go on from there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we weren't getting {disfmarker} we didn't really have enough information to make firm decisions,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but we were able to do it regardless, so. I'm not usually a very decisive person, so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes.
Project Manager: This is what we'll do.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I found that we did {disfmarker} we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings.
Industrial Designer: Especially last time,
User Interface: Yeah, for some of the meetings, yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah I think the last time we had a lot of information, but at the same time not quite enough,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you know what I mean,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: like we we couldn't answer every single question.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right. And I I felt the first two meetings, that I was coming in with no information,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and not sort of made me really like, ooh I don't know {vocalsound}, throwing together PowerPoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite. I had so much information and so much to talk about.
Project Manager: It was interesting what came out like later, like as I was doing the {disfmarker} when I was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um, that more points came out from your presentation even.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm.
Project Manager: Um. I'm a little {disfmarker} I am a little disappointed that we didn't do a {disfmarker} um something for losing the remote, because that was kind of a big point.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap} that was something like {disfmarker} in order to talk about that we would've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and {vocalsound} things like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: About {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Well the problem was, even when we just were creating from the Excel file, there wasn't like a option to select to somehow have it included,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: so there was no {disfmarker} we could be like yeah, it has it included.
Industrial Designer: I think we were {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: There was no way for us to have
Project Manager: Considered the re
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: written down that it was really there.
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Well
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's interesting that they {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we really got into it, I mean I got into it as the day went on and I got really like, ooh I'm designing a remote control, I dunno if that's just me,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, yeah {gap}.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they didn't provide us with information to um {disfmarker} we weren't provided with information to discuss that.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it'll beep, but I but I'm sure that would require some kind of technology
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: that {disfmarker} I just don't know what it is, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you won't lose them.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: I dunno. I mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least, there's only about two places that the remote is ever
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer:'cause there's only one T_V_ and there's only like three chairs.
Marketing: That's like saying you're never gonna lose your keys, and I always do, anyway. You'll lose'em in your pocket,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: like you just will forget that {disfmarker} or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: there's always ways to lose things.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: It d yeah, it depends on how organised you are personally, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, or like I guess what the setup of the house is too.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: But, I mean {disfmarker} I am notorious for losing my keys,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I just {disfmarker} I guess I've just never lost the remote. I put my keys in the refrigerator the other night {vocalsound} and couldn't find them.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'Cause I was putting groceries away.
Marketing: That's funny.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
Industrial Designer: You you're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room.
Project Manager: Can't get in. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Can't get in, look all around the kitchen. Definitely in the vegetable drawer.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's funny.
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound}.
Marketing: I always do that, leaving it in my coat, and then like using a different coat.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: But I guess it's'cause we don't carry remotes around that much.
Marketing: Yeah. Can't really take it into the other room.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Maybe with our little robot one we could've had him have a {disfmarker} robot, alien, pear, whatever he is, have a little voice like, I am located {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh a G_P_S_ system, {vocalsound} internal G_P_S_.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh man. Here you go.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We should make one that walks by itself. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Although if it's sitting still for too long. {vocalsound} Yes I {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That really could get up and walk away {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Or or like some crazy like electro-magnet, that you push it and it'll go zoom to the T_V_ and stick there. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} Or little {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Or just just a wheel, you know.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} like you'd have a remote for your remote, that'll {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Well, but if you could attach them to the T_V_, then you can {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {gap} zoom {disfmarker} Yeah. Hmm. All kinds of possibilities.
Project Manager: Mm. Okay. Sorry, I'm just um trying to update my minutes. I decided to {disfmarker} you know how I sent you the email saying that PowerPoint minutes will be complimentary, rather than like repeating them.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Just gonna make {disfmarker} I'm making full minutes, so that it'll include all of the agenda and all that.
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager:'Cause that seems a little more useful.
Industrial Designer: Wow.'Cause you've had like the most typing and organising to do.
Project Manager: But I didn't have like information to sloth through either, so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I guess {disfmarker} How much of your PowerPoint was already done for you, every meeting.
Project Manager: Most of it, mm-hmm. I added slides, um I added a couple slides each time,
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: but that was about it.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Yeah, I didn't even think about adding slides,'cause I would just get slides with titles on them
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and fill them all in w didn't even think about adding more.
Project Manager: Well, the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points, but it wouldn't have a slide for each point. And that's the only way I remember that I need to go other that point.
Industrial Designer: Ah yeah. .
Project Manager: {gap} I know personally when I do PowerPoint, that's what I do and so {disfmarker} I had it once, even if it was just like the title of it, like the three presentations, and I would do your three.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Marketing: You have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The slogan on it?
Industrial Designer: No, no, definitely not.
Project Manager: No no no.
Marketing: Okay good.
Industrial Designer: We {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}'Cause I was like, it could go around the outside. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No, I don't think we need to {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we just need the um the R_R_,
Industrial Designer: I think the R_ and R_, especially if the yellow and black one.
Project Manager: yeah.
Marketing: Is it yellow and blue?
Industrial Designer: Or yellow and blue. Lemme go to the web page.
Project Manager: Yeah, I was just kinda going by the web page,'cause they didn't give me any clear, like yellow, grey, or {gap}.
Marketing: Oh I guess it is black, grey. Grey is better than black, doesn't look so bumblebeeish.
Project Manager: I don't really like yellow in general.
Marketing: Hey now I understand the random like newsclippings.
Project Manager: But it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Finish meeting now. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Wasn't it interesting that um {disfmarker} I thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes.
Project Manager: the marketing choices,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know, like
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I will
Project Manager: {vocalsound} that was a bit of a conflict.
Marketing: I just feel like if you're really doing like a a really big market evaluation, you wouldn't just have like one set of source,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's kind of an {disfmarker} they were so not backed up, it would just be a sentence {gap} like we did a survey, this is what people said.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: S mm, I dunno.
Project Manager: People are stupid.
Industrial Designer: I guess it i it sort of a grey, isn't it? Yellow and grey, but then the slogan's in blue.
Marketing: Well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons, we're good.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Well we don't have the right colour clay anyway.
Project Manager: Maybe, like {disfmarker} I don't know. {gap} That could always be {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Well we're not, sadly, going to actually be producing this, so {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Oh.
Marketing: If they ever come out with potato {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Potato mango shaped remotes.
Marketing: I'm gonna have to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'm claiming it intellectual property.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I can't believe a whole day is gone. I don't feel like it's been that long.
Marketing: I know.
Industrial Designer: Get sucked in. Mm I haven't gotten questionnaire eight yet. | This meeting was about the prototype presentation and evaluation. Firstly, the group presented the prototype with agreed features including a latex case in fruity colours that's curved, push buttons with an on-screen menu button as well as eight extra buttons. Next, the group had a discussion about the prototype evaluation. They gave a high scale of the score on creativity, ease of use, integration of fruits as well as the simplicity. Also, they gave an average score on technology innovation and ease of learning. Then, the group agreed to set the target price at 12. 5 Euros. Lastly, the group had a discussion about the project process, including management and leadership as well as group mates'personal learning. | qmsum |
Summarize the presentation about two versions of the prototype.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {gap}. {vocalsound} So let's see the {disfmarker} what did you prepare.
User Interface: Yeah, so can you go out to the shared folder? Mm the shared folder.
Project Manager: Sh share folder for th your presentation?
User Interface: Yes. We have a presentation.
Project Manager: Because I have here {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {gap} So I got the participant uh three. W uh {vocalsound}. Three. It's the final design, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay just one {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} S so so I discussed with Guillaume.
Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Right. {vocalsound} And uh {vocalsound} so we have {vocalsound} {disfmarker} and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes, because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an L_C_D_ or not because it's too expensive. So we come up with two versions. One with and one without L_C_D_s. Um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or {gap} control module. And detachable big buttons for all people um. So {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S okay so I'll show you the the two prototypes {vocalsound}. Here we have the first one with the beautiful uh L_C_D_ um display. You you can s here. And you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: You can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it's considered like a enter function.
User Interface: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: You have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the {vocalsound} for the speech recognition system here.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And here the the switch that control if you want {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why you why you you put it in the the side?
Industrial Designer: Well I I I think uh it's the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not a good place maybe {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: No i i it's the all around camer uh microphone isn't it. The the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Is it an only a single mic or a microphone array?
Industrial Designer: Well so it's a microphone array.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh it's very costly, microphone array {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's just a single microphone, and you {disfmarker} I I think uh we we put it here because I think when you when you are browsing your L_C_D_ you will be close to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: well it's better to to to place it here th than here, for instance.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off. And uh so this remote control comes up with its charger.
Project Manager: How much does it cost this one?
Industrial Designer: Well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars
User Interface: For the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen dollars?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} fifteen dollars,
Project Manager: Ah it's above it's above the budget.
Industrial Designer: but uh well it's not it's not uh {disfmarker} yeah, but uh it's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh {disfmarker} voila.
Marketing: The cost would be le reduced.
Industrial Designer: Yeah the {gap} and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars. {gap}
User Interface: Mm. Hmm.
Project Manager: How many b battery is there?
Industrial Designer: How many, excuse me?
Project Manager: Battery.
Industrial Designer: Well uh f battery, we use uh about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is it n the two A_A_s batteries in it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: A_A_ rechargeable batteries.
Industrial Designer: Rechargeable of course,
User Interface: Yeah rechargeable batteries.
Industrial Designer: because we have the charger.
User Interface: We have the charger so it's no problem.
Industrial Designer: Yeah and you just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So one one battery?
Industrial Designer: On uh yeah one battery.
Marketing: Is that two or one?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's kinetic reserve.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Actually uh it's a flexible thing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You just n uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Now what is the whole day rating for that?
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} excuse me?
Marketing: Whole day's rating.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What type of battery?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah it's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: if you uh like it's exist.
Marketing: Something like a two A_, A_ three size batteries?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and uh leave it uh alone, it's alright.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} At uh {vocalsound} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Then the next time you pick it, oh
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it works {vocalsound}.
User Interface: I forgot to tell you there is only a single button there, b this button {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah just explain the button uh Norman.
User Interface: yeah alright. This button is like the mouse {disfmarker} is like a joystick,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it {disfmarker} the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can move up, down, left, right, or you can do a swing. So a swing to the left, a swing to the right defines other functions. So even though it's a single button, but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement {vocalsound}.
Marketing: And the L_C_D_ is this one, on the remote?
User Interface: Yeah. This is the version y that comes with L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Here I present another version without the L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is {gap} getting destroyed.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If you
User Interface: Uh okay this is new prototype uh {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration. The second version is also simpler, we d uh we had just uh I have to put the microphone also {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So basically th it's the same uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh-huh and also the switch.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Basically it's the same uh things uh uh as uh I presented before. But here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation. Press one button uh acting as a a enter button.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So um yeah according to what you said it's more robust to the user.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And uh it's also cheaper to produce. We can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No four dollars, it's {vocalsound} {gap} good. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger,
User Interface: Oh no
Marketing: because that's a major that's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: th actually th we'll come to that point in our {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's it's it's embed in the uh speech recognition system.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then?
User Interface: W w I'll I'll come to that point later on.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} so Norman will explain to you {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm.
Project Manager: And we will we will serve the charger with this?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah of course mm {gap}.
User Interface: Th they {vocalsound} either these with the {disfmarker} uh the the charger any
Project Manager: With the remote control.
User Interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so the price of the charger included in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh it's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Thank thank you {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so mm-hmm.
User Interface: It's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types. I think we have to investigate more on that, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The price should be below twelve and a half Euro.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah
Project Manager: Well that's {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
User Interface: but as the Marketing Manager says, people is willing to {disfmarker} people are willing to pay more for good design.
Project Manager: We have we have just {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah people are willing to pay more,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment.
Project Manager: The price of selling is twenty five Euros.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And the price of production {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright please uh go on Norman with the special features {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah we'll we'll come up to that, the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more. If you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so is uh modular.
Project Manager: That's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more.
User Interface: Yeah yeah,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: for example the L_C_D_, you can take it you can put it {disfmarker} put it back in, or you can use the other one,
Marketing: Something like customised. Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: or {vocalsound} the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You want a microphone to put in the {vocalsound} speech recogniser you don't wan you pay less for the system you see {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm okay.
User Interface: It's pretty flexible in the yeah price {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {gap} You also have the the the two other modules for the parental control
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh yeah yeah you should present that.
Industrial Designer: that that you ca you can add up {vocalsound} to the {disfmarker} to your remote control
Marketing: And this is other one?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do, and uh which channel you want to choose and so on.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: H here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch T_V_, up {disfmarker} they come up with their modules,
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
Industrial Designer: they just plug in it
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and they can have all the control they want here.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: We also have this module for uh old people with big buttons, clearly labelled,
User Interface: Hmm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it acts like the previous one,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: you just plug in and it works.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful. Simplicity meaning that we have few buttons, powerful is that all the controls with {vocalsound} the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities. But in addition with simplicity. So that's the best idea, the cond that that's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Okay now we come to other important features that I did not tell you. The first one is the speech recogniser, again it's detachable or add-on. And then we also have security feature for example this here {disfmarker} oop {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's very robust {gap}, it doesn't break and the material, what's the material again?
Industrial Designer: The titanium
Project Manager: Titanium.
Industrial Designer: and so it's very uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one, again because this is A_A_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want.
Marketing: Yeah that's fine.
User Interface: Lithium-ion may be a good one, but you can replace it with cheaper one, again you pay for what you get, and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder. So when you finish watching your T_V_ {vocalsound} and you the you t you turn off the T_V_, uh and then there's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger, so so that's the {disfmarker} or is it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: that's the reminder part. Yeah and um {disfmarker} And it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary, so we didn't define the vocabulary so it's up to the user to define
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
User Interface: so {disfmarker} sorry? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a {gap} of T_V_ programmes by genre, and this can be used by the adult or by the children. So instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the T_V_ contents of the night. So it's pretty powerful, and that's that's why the num buttons are reduced, because of this feature. Yeah. And {vocalsound} and for the materials that is cheap to produce I think uh it's quite clear from {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: And also like the {gap} and the fancy designs yeah.
Project Manager: What what's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe we can improve more on the design but {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What's the price to p to produce?
User Interface: {disfmarker} uh this is the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well so the price to produce {disfmarker} For uh the simplest one, say we start from four dollars to produce such a device.
Project Manager: With with with the charge?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's about it {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} without without the charger
Marketing: With the charger?
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules, and finally three dollars for the charger. So if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the L_C_D_ {vocalsound}, which costs two dollar, you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: We don't have charger. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we can use Excel {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's about {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We don't have all the options {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars.
Project Manager: Charger we don't have charger here either.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No it's
Industrial Designer: But it's just if you want all functionalities.
Project Manager: it's below the the the budget.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Excuse me?
Project Manager: It's below the bu the budget.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it's a nice input
Project Manager: We {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: I think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements, and we can finalise the product based on this discu
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: I think we can just go to my presentation then. We can wind up. Or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings, and uh in the market the people are not really interested with L_C_D_, without L_C_D_, with speech recognition interface, or without speech recognition interface, but most of the people what they are interested is {disfmarker} first thing is, they want to have an fancy look and feel, it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm.
Marketing: And the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Of course in that we could put L_C_D_ or recognition to be more technologically innovative. And the third one is easy to use.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well I think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we haven't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the T_V_ screen uh uh with just four buttons.
Marketing: Okay and if we go to the next slide, here you can find {disfmarker} these are the latest fashion updates, and so this {disfmarker} in Paris and Milan {gap} they have detected this trends that the this year it's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable, so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable, or whatever they like.
User Interface: Spongy spongy. Mm mm.
Marketing: So I think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes.
User Interface: Mm {vocalsound} mm.
Marketing: And the second thing is, and if the material, they really do not want it to be very hard, as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium, it should be somewhat spongy.
User Interface: But the the problem is that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} is it robust to mishandling?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: We have {disfmarker} you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: A sponge. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah so uh {vocalsound} so finally we have these three criterias.
User Interface: Spongy {vocalsound}.
Marketing: One is fancy look, second is innovative, and third is easy to use.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these,
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Marketing: say that we have a seven point scale, from one to seven,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So now you have with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_,
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: so on this scale, if it is true, if it is {disfmarker} if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one, or if it is false, it doesn't {disfmarker} it looks uh {disfmarker} it doesn't look much fancy, then you could just tell me seven. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} We can make our study on this and {disfmarker}
User Interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users?
Marketing: No no we have {disfmarker} you have designed two products now,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: one is with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: But who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party?
Project Manager: You.
Marketing: According to you, no according to you designers, how will feel {disfmarker} does it uh with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Okay let us make this L_ and without L_C_D_. On on this scale the L_C_D_ remote control. How do you look {disfmarker} how does it look?
User Interface: Mm. Mm.
Marketing: D is it very fancy or doesn't look much fancy?
Industrial Designer: Well it doesn't look much fancy I'll I'll say three or four.
Marketing: And you both agree for that?
Project Manager: And you?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we can improve on the design.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh {gap} {vocalsound} design.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. It's it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um we have been focused all all this {vocalsound} time on the {vocalsound} on the technical aspect, functional aspect, but also the simplicity.
Industrial Designer: Technical aspects.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: As for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help {vocalsound}.
Marketing: So I take three on {disfmarker} with L_C_D_?
Industrial Designer: Yeah a three.
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ how would you rate it?
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Uh four. I think it's it's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it's not complicated
Marketing: Four.
Industrial Designer: so removing the L_C_D_ um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: And in the sense of innovativeness, with L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: Well it's it's the same for both so {vocalsound} I will give a five, six. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Five with L_C_D_ and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well five also uh {disfmarker} Norman please. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: from the innovation aspect I feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um {vocalsound} the retrieval of T_V_ programmes by content, because uh that is really innovative, and for now {disfmarker} and another innovation we have is simplicity and {disfmarker} simplicity, few buttons, we've uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} A lot of functionalities.
Industrial Designer: With lot of functionalities.
User Interface: So that is uh that is uh for both th
Marketing: So without L_C_D_?
User Interface: Our gi I think that the our our product is uh has the best in all {disfmarker} well this is a biased judgement {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because we designed them.
Marketing: No no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness?
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Uh the innovation is v is very high I think.
Project Manager: For L_C_D_.
Marketing: With L_C_D_.
User Interface: Both.
Marketing: And without L_C_D_?
Industrial Designer: Mm for both it's the the same innovations.
User Interface: For both. It's the same innovation. So maybe I can put six to seven.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap} six, let's go for six.
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_.
User Interface: Both.
Marketing: No actually uh to make it with L_C_D_ you make more efforts. So I {disfmarker} there is high innovativeness included if you make it with L_C_D_ y
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: then when it is without L_C_D_ there is not much innovativeness.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Uh no innovative yeah.
User Interface: Uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the L_C_D_?
Marketing: So we can't go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Talk about {disfmarker}
User Interface: We haven't really uh determined {vocalsound} what are {disfmarker} actually actually
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean that what you are sayin that's what the design {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's good to have a L_C_D_ but what are we gonna display on a L_C_D_? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No it's like this,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean on the L_C_D_, according to what I understand from your model is, you have a joystick here, and you have L_C_D_, you just press your joystick, you get here a programme.
Project Manager: So let's remove it.
User Interface: Yeah? Yeah. Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but you have the same programme on the T_V_ screen.
Marketing: Uh then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes exactly.
Project Manager: This is the problem.
Marketing: No on the T_V_ you don't it doesn't display on the T_V_ now.
Industrial Designer: If you have the L_C_D_, but if n
Marketing: L_C_D_? Then uh there is no meaning in having it on the T_V_.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Or then again you have a channels, volume and all the stuff and what a
User Interface: But you cannot display all on a L_C_D_.
Marketing: I mean that depends upon your design, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Anyway for for the users who who who opt for L_C_D_ {vocalsound} we'll give them the give them the L_C_D_,
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: we give what the customer uh wants, right.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness? And which {gap} do you recommend e easy to use, with L_C_D_ or without L_C_D_?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons,
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear, well-organised, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so I will give a six for the easy to use.
User Interface: Yeah I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No it's just if I I see the the f the rate I think it's better to do it without L_C_D_.
User Interface: sorry. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because that's with L_C_D_ just will increase the price,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and I thi i they have the same rate so without L_C_D_ it will be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates. So I mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: without L_C_D_ and without speech recognition. Even then our product is going to be very good.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's cheaper to produce.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} S {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh if the the {disfmarker} well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: Yeah. I have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect. I think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: For the young generation easy to use may be very complicated
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons. For kids they want simply the {gap} s similarit for the old people they want simplicity,
Marketing: Yeah yeah that's right.
User Interface: so that's why {vocalsound} we have the parental module. Uh we can ha have {disfmarker} build a more complex design if if they want it, but but uh what I'm trying to say here is that the um {disfmarker} we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people. So in terms of easy to use I think it's very user customisable. User customisation is very important yeah. Yeah
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six.
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ I just take it five?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: W uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or you want it to be six?
User Interface: I think it's the same.
Industrial Designer: Um six.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes as you say, with better uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_.
Marketing: S s oh I think it's better to have this without L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah. And to improve the the look.
Marketing: As our Programme Manager s Pro Project Manager says that without L_C_D_ it is going to reduce the cost also,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: and it's going to be much simpler to use.
Industrial Designer: Yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so let's go back to our laboratory and {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} To improve on the design.
Project Manager: What a what what about the sys speech recognition?
Marketing: So.
Project Manager: {gap} what about the integration of speech recognition?
User Interface: Huh? The speech recogniser is a add-on module. Right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That's going to be an optional.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: If somebody wants to buy it they can have it, otherwise no.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah so it's optional with the {disfmarker} okay.
Marketing: It's an optional.
Industrial Designer: It's optional yeah, since well according to this study uh people more {vocalsound} likes more to have a spongy uh {vocalsound} remote control than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it will be {disfmarker} I think i
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control, because maybe parents will lose these uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but I mean if you have an add-ons, the kids may just uh hide the parental module
Project Manager: Yeah. Or ma yeah.
Marketing: and so that their parents can't use it {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same {disfmarker}
Marketing: In the same set, yeah,
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} The problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component, and doesn't want the parental control because it's a couple who do not have children {disfmarker} {vocalsound} when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people, and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them. So we might lose the customer because of this. I don't know,
Project Manager: So you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional {disfmarker} uh will be optional.
User Interface: what do you think uh? Yes exa what do you think, I don't know. You are Marketing Manag {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple {disfmarker} or how many couples have a T_V_
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So based on that I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} But the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it inc increase. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well you can {gap} {disfmarker} if you had uh something li
Project Manager: I think it i increases.
Industrial Designer: Oh no,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: because if you if you add uh something {disfmarker} well yeah maybe because it's three different pieces uh to to to build but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: But you can make it on a single P_C_ with three different options.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's I think it's cheaper if you if you already built the all the {vocalsound} functionalities um on the same module, but uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} Mm. Yeah.
Marketing: On the same P_C_B_
User Interface: Well well the other aspect is that if {vocalsound} in the {disfmarker} when they have the ar existing product you you gonna maintain the the {disfmarker} you're gonna keep the same customer,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: yeah yeah.
User Interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: So so {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean you could just provide with an optional {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah i i so if don't don't buy now they can buy i in the future. So in in that way you're actually keeping the cus the same customer, attracting them to come back in again and again.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's something like a Microsoft product {vocalsound} update.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And and we we we we we we don't want that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We're not trying to follow the Microsoft and we don't want to the m {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Updates and we sell it. We make updates and sell it {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be {disfmarker} can be upgraded, it would be a good thing right?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, it depends on the v production. {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh what's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls?
Industrial Designer: Well so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: Do you require different types of P_C_B_s and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um {disfmarker} but I don't think it will uh increase the cost too much so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Or uh it could be like this {disfmarker} the P_C_B_ would be the same for all, but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh well but it's a bit complicated to {disfmarker} if if if you need machines to {disfmarker} different machines to um ah well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. What we can change is to propose the {vocalsound} customers with skins. For example the i the mobile phones nowaday, they sell different kinds of skin
Marketing: Yeah, yeah that's right.
User Interface: and then people just feel that oh I have a new skin and looks better.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah we can have the same global shape
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh?
Industrial Designer: Sponge. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think you need to look into the material.
User Interface: Yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think the Project Manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models.
Project Manager: {gap} Project evaluation project satisfaction, for example. I don't know, we have to ask these question. We have to give answers so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} I suppose that you {gap} this criteria, is it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Project evaluation. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Room for creativity. This room is a bit small, but {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} but I think it's okay for us to work with. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I feel it's fine, we know we don't need uh {disfmarker} I think it's okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah mm.
Industrial Designer: That was good.
Marketing: This is fine for making a presentat for project presentations.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it's okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: And the leadership was excellent.
Project Manager: Yeah I think so {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good job {vocalsound} good job.
Industrial Designer: Fine yes uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He gave you the liberty to talk as you wants {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Yeah that's right. Yeah that's right.
Project Manager: Uh the teamwork was very very good. I was really {disfmarker} I am very satisfying to work with with you.
Industrial Designer: Very democratic.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Alright.
Marketing: And new ideas found. Any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting?
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Come up with new product {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Less fancy.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean uh what type of product would you think {disfmarker} could we make this more interesting?
User Interface: Mm we {disfmarker} I I know something, we need more cakes, more biscuits on the table while we have meetings. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah and also more well uh {vocalsound} more seriously I think it's it's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that, but I think it's alright. We achieved uh project goal I think.
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: De
Marketing: that is within the budget.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's w yes, more or less.
Marketing: And the evaluation was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Without without L_C_D_, without speech recognition, it will be simple.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright. So.
Marketing: And the next is celebration.
Industrial Designer: So uh coffee machine.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} free free coffee
User Interface: {vocalsound} Alright then, we finished?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah thank you for your work and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah thank you, thank you very much.
User Interface: Thank you very much. | Industrial Designer and User Interface gave a presentation about two versions of the prototype, one with and one without LCD. As for the one with LCD, users could choose the direction and if they pushed on it, it's considered like an enter function. There was also a button which was like a mouse. This prototype had microphone arrays for the speech recognition system and switch for controlling. The remote control needed rechargeable batteries, but the type and the number of batteries were not sure. This prototype cost fifteen dollars and it was high above the budget. The second prototype was basically the same as the first one. However, it used buttons to navigate and enter. This one cost four dollars. The remote control had different modules for different groups of people. The set might use a material like titanium or lithium. User Interface said that features which cost much could be optional so the price could be flexible. Project Manager said that the cost of the whole second plan was below the budget. | qmsum |
Summarize the evaluation of two versions and further discussion.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {gap}. {vocalsound} So let's see the {disfmarker} what did you prepare.
User Interface: Yeah, so can you go out to the shared folder? Mm the shared folder.
Project Manager: Sh share folder for th your presentation?
User Interface: Yes. We have a presentation.
Project Manager: Because I have here {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {gap} So I got the participant uh three. W uh {vocalsound}. Three. It's the final design, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay just one {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} S so so I discussed with Guillaume.
Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Right. {vocalsound} And uh {vocalsound} so we have {vocalsound} {disfmarker} and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes, because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an L_C_D_ or not because it's too expensive. So we come up with two versions. One with and one without L_C_D_s. Um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or {gap} control module. And detachable big buttons for all people um. So {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S okay so I'll show you the the two prototypes {vocalsound}. Here we have the first one with the beautiful uh L_C_D_ um display. You you can s here. And you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: You can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it's considered like a enter function.
User Interface: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: You have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the {vocalsound} for the speech recognition system here.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And here the the switch that control if you want {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why you why you you put it in the the side?
Industrial Designer: Well I I I think uh it's the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not a good place maybe {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: No i i it's the all around camer uh microphone isn't it. The the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Is it an only a single mic or a microphone array?
Industrial Designer: Well so it's a microphone array.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh it's very costly, microphone array {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's just a single microphone, and you {disfmarker} I I think uh we we put it here because I think when you when you are browsing your L_C_D_ you will be close to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: well it's better to to to place it here th than here, for instance.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off. And uh so this remote control comes up with its charger.
Project Manager: How much does it cost this one?
Industrial Designer: Well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars
User Interface: For the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen dollars?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} fifteen dollars,
Project Manager: Ah it's above it's above the budget.
Industrial Designer: but uh well it's not it's not uh {disfmarker} yeah, but uh it's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh {disfmarker} voila.
Marketing: The cost would be le reduced.
Industrial Designer: Yeah the {gap} and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars. {gap}
User Interface: Mm. Hmm.
Project Manager: How many b battery is there?
Industrial Designer: How many, excuse me?
Project Manager: Battery.
Industrial Designer: Well uh f battery, we use uh about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is it n the two A_A_s batteries in it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: A_A_ rechargeable batteries.
Industrial Designer: Rechargeable of course,
User Interface: Yeah rechargeable batteries.
Industrial Designer: because we have the charger.
User Interface: We have the charger so it's no problem.
Industrial Designer: Yeah and you just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So one one battery?
Industrial Designer: On uh yeah one battery.
Marketing: Is that two or one?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's kinetic reserve.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Actually uh it's a flexible thing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You just n uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Now what is the whole day rating for that?
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} excuse me?
Marketing: Whole day's rating.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What type of battery?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah it's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: if you uh like it's exist.
Marketing: Something like a two A_, A_ three size batteries?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and uh leave it uh alone, it's alright.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} At uh {vocalsound} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Then the next time you pick it, oh
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it works {vocalsound}.
User Interface: I forgot to tell you there is only a single button there, b this button {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah just explain the button uh Norman.
User Interface: yeah alright. This button is like the mouse {disfmarker} is like a joystick,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it {disfmarker} the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can move up, down, left, right, or you can do a swing. So a swing to the left, a swing to the right defines other functions. So even though it's a single button, but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement {vocalsound}.
Marketing: And the L_C_D_ is this one, on the remote?
User Interface: Yeah. This is the version y that comes with L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Here I present another version without the L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is {gap} getting destroyed.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If you
User Interface: Uh okay this is new prototype uh {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration. The second version is also simpler, we d uh we had just uh I have to put the microphone also {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So basically th it's the same uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh-huh and also the switch.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Basically it's the same uh things uh uh as uh I presented before. But here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation. Press one button uh acting as a a enter button.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So um yeah according to what you said it's more robust to the user.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And uh it's also cheaper to produce. We can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No four dollars, it's {vocalsound} {gap} good. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger,
User Interface: Oh no
Marketing: because that's a major that's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: th actually th we'll come to that point in our {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's it's it's embed in the uh speech recognition system.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then?
User Interface: W w I'll I'll come to that point later on.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} so Norman will explain to you {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm.
Project Manager: And we will we will serve the charger with this?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah of course mm {gap}.
User Interface: Th they {vocalsound} either these with the {disfmarker} uh the the charger any
Project Manager: With the remote control.
User Interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so the price of the charger included in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh it's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Thank thank you {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so mm-hmm.
User Interface: It's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types. I think we have to investigate more on that, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The price should be below twelve and a half Euro.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah
Project Manager: Well that's {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
User Interface: but as the Marketing Manager says, people is willing to {disfmarker} people are willing to pay more for good design.
Project Manager: We have we have just {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah people are willing to pay more,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment.
Project Manager: The price of selling is twenty five Euros.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And the price of production {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright please uh go on Norman with the special features {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah we'll we'll come up to that, the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more. If you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so is uh modular.
Project Manager: That's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more.
User Interface: Yeah yeah,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: for example the L_C_D_, you can take it you can put it {disfmarker} put it back in, or you can use the other one,
Marketing: Something like customised. Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: or {vocalsound} the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You want a microphone to put in the {vocalsound} speech recogniser you don't wan you pay less for the system you see {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm okay.
User Interface: It's pretty flexible in the yeah price {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {gap} You also have the the the two other modules for the parental control
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh yeah yeah you should present that.
Industrial Designer: that that you ca you can add up {vocalsound} to the {disfmarker} to your remote control
Marketing: And this is other one?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do, and uh which channel you want to choose and so on.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: H here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch T_V_, up {disfmarker} they come up with their modules,
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
Industrial Designer: they just plug in it
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and they can have all the control they want here.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: We also have this module for uh old people with big buttons, clearly labelled,
User Interface: Hmm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it acts like the previous one,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: you just plug in and it works.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful. Simplicity meaning that we have few buttons, powerful is that all the controls with {vocalsound} the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities. But in addition with simplicity. So that's the best idea, the cond that that's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Okay now we come to other important features that I did not tell you. The first one is the speech recogniser, again it's detachable or add-on. And then we also have security feature for example this here {disfmarker} oop {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's very robust {gap}, it doesn't break and the material, what's the material again?
Industrial Designer: The titanium
Project Manager: Titanium.
Industrial Designer: and so it's very uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one, again because this is A_A_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want.
Marketing: Yeah that's fine.
User Interface: Lithium-ion may be a good one, but you can replace it with cheaper one, again you pay for what you get, and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder. So when you finish watching your T_V_ {vocalsound} and you the you t you turn off the T_V_, uh and then there's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger, so so that's the {disfmarker} or is it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: that's the reminder part. Yeah and um {disfmarker} And it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary, so we didn't define the vocabulary so it's up to the user to define
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
User Interface: so {disfmarker} sorry? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a {gap} of T_V_ programmes by genre, and this can be used by the adult or by the children. So instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the T_V_ contents of the night. So it's pretty powerful, and that's that's why the num buttons are reduced, because of this feature. Yeah. And {vocalsound} and for the materials that is cheap to produce I think uh it's quite clear from {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: And also like the {gap} and the fancy designs yeah.
Project Manager: What what's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe we can improve more on the design but {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What's the price to p to produce?
User Interface: {disfmarker} uh this is the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well so the price to produce {disfmarker} For uh the simplest one, say we start from four dollars to produce such a device.
Project Manager: With with with the charge?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's about it {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} without without the charger
Marketing: With the charger?
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules, and finally three dollars for the charger. So if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the L_C_D_ {vocalsound}, which costs two dollar, you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: We don't have charger. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we can use Excel {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's about {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We don't have all the options {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars.
Project Manager: Charger we don't have charger here either.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No it's
Industrial Designer: But it's just if you want all functionalities.
Project Manager: it's below the the the budget.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Excuse me?
Project Manager: It's below the bu the budget.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it's a nice input
Project Manager: We {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: I think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements, and we can finalise the product based on this discu
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: I think we can just go to my presentation then. We can wind up. Or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings, and uh in the market the people are not really interested with L_C_D_, without L_C_D_, with speech recognition interface, or without speech recognition interface, but most of the people what they are interested is {disfmarker} first thing is, they want to have an fancy look and feel, it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm.
Marketing: And the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Of course in that we could put L_C_D_ or recognition to be more technologically innovative. And the third one is easy to use.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well I think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we haven't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the T_V_ screen uh uh with just four buttons.
Marketing: Okay and if we go to the next slide, here you can find {disfmarker} these are the latest fashion updates, and so this {disfmarker} in Paris and Milan {gap} they have detected this trends that the this year it's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable, so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable, or whatever they like.
User Interface: Spongy spongy. Mm mm.
Marketing: So I think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes.
User Interface: Mm {vocalsound} mm.
Marketing: And the second thing is, and if the material, they really do not want it to be very hard, as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium, it should be somewhat spongy.
User Interface: But the the problem is that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} is it robust to mishandling?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: We have {disfmarker} you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: A sponge. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah so uh {vocalsound} so finally we have these three criterias.
User Interface: Spongy {vocalsound}.
Marketing: One is fancy look, second is innovative, and third is easy to use.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these,
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Marketing: say that we have a seven point scale, from one to seven,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So now you have with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_,
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: so on this scale, if it is true, if it is {disfmarker} if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one, or if it is false, it doesn't {disfmarker} it looks uh {disfmarker} it doesn't look much fancy, then you could just tell me seven. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} We can make our study on this and {disfmarker}
User Interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users?
Marketing: No no we have {disfmarker} you have designed two products now,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: one is with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: But who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party?
Project Manager: You.
Marketing: According to you, no according to you designers, how will feel {disfmarker} does it uh with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Okay let us make this L_ and without L_C_D_. On on this scale the L_C_D_ remote control. How do you look {disfmarker} how does it look?
User Interface: Mm. Mm.
Marketing: D is it very fancy or doesn't look much fancy?
Industrial Designer: Well it doesn't look much fancy I'll I'll say three or four.
Marketing: And you both agree for that?
Project Manager: And you?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we can improve on the design.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh {gap} {vocalsound} design.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. It's it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um we have been focused all all this {vocalsound} time on the {vocalsound} on the technical aspect, functional aspect, but also the simplicity.
Industrial Designer: Technical aspects.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: As for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help {vocalsound}.
Marketing: So I take three on {disfmarker} with L_C_D_?
Industrial Designer: Yeah a three.
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ how would you rate it?
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Uh four. I think it's it's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it's not complicated
Marketing: Four.
Industrial Designer: so removing the L_C_D_ um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: And in the sense of innovativeness, with L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: Well it's it's the same for both so {vocalsound} I will give a five, six. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Five with L_C_D_ and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well five also uh {disfmarker} Norman please. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: from the innovation aspect I feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um {vocalsound} the retrieval of T_V_ programmes by content, because uh that is really innovative, and for now {disfmarker} and another innovation we have is simplicity and {disfmarker} simplicity, few buttons, we've uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} A lot of functionalities.
Industrial Designer: With lot of functionalities.
User Interface: So that is uh that is uh for both th
Marketing: So without L_C_D_?
User Interface: Our gi I think that the our our product is uh has the best in all {disfmarker} well this is a biased judgement {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because we designed them.
Marketing: No no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness?
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Uh the innovation is v is very high I think.
Project Manager: For L_C_D_.
Marketing: With L_C_D_.
User Interface: Both.
Marketing: And without L_C_D_?
Industrial Designer: Mm for both it's the the same innovations.
User Interface: For both. It's the same innovation. So maybe I can put six to seven.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap} six, let's go for six.
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_.
User Interface: Both.
Marketing: No actually uh to make it with L_C_D_ you make more efforts. So I {disfmarker} there is high innovativeness included if you make it with L_C_D_ y
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: then when it is without L_C_D_ there is not much innovativeness.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Uh no innovative yeah.
User Interface: Uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the L_C_D_?
Marketing: So we can't go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Talk about {disfmarker}
User Interface: We haven't really uh determined {vocalsound} what are {disfmarker} actually actually
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean that what you are sayin that's what the design {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's good to have a L_C_D_ but what are we gonna display on a L_C_D_? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No it's like this,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean on the L_C_D_, according to what I understand from your model is, you have a joystick here, and you have L_C_D_, you just press your joystick, you get here a programme.
Project Manager: So let's remove it.
User Interface: Yeah? Yeah. Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but you have the same programme on the T_V_ screen.
Marketing: Uh then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes exactly.
Project Manager: This is the problem.
Marketing: No on the T_V_ you don't it doesn't display on the T_V_ now.
Industrial Designer: If you have the L_C_D_, but if n
Marketing: L_C_D_? Then uh there is no meaning in having it on the T_V_.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Or then again you have a channels, volume and all the stuff and what a
User Interface: But you cannot display all on a L_C_D_.
Marketing: I mean that depends upon your design, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Anyway for for the users who who who opt for L_C_D_ {vocalsound} we'll give them the give them the L_C_D_,
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: we give what the customer uh wants, right.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness? And which {gap} do you recommend e easy to use, with L_C_D_ or without L_C_D_?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons,
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear, well-organised, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so I will give a six for the easy to use.
User Interface: Yeah I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No it's just if I I see the the f the rate I think it's better to do it without L_C_D_.
User Interface: sorry. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because that's with L_C_D_ just will increase the price,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and I thi i they have the same rate so without L_C_D_ it will be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates. So I mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: without L_C_D_ and without speech recognition. Even then our product is going to be very good.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's cheaper to produce.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} S {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh if the the {disfmarker} well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: Yeah. I have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect. I think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: For the young generation easy to use may be very complicated
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons. For kids they want simply the {gap} s similarit for the old people they want simplicity,
Marketing: Yeah yeah that's right.
User Interface: so that's why {vocalsound} we have the parental module. Uh we can ha have {disfmarker} build a more complex design if if they want it, but but uh what I'm trying to say here is that the um {disfmarker} we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people. So in terms of easy to use I think it's very user customisable. User customisation is very important yeah. Yeah
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six.
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ I just take it five?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: W uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or you want it to be six?
User Interface: I think it's the same.
Industrial Designer: Um six.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes as you say, with better uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_.
Marketing: S s oh I think it's better to have this without L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah. And to improve the the look.
Marketing: As our Programme Manager s Pro Project Manager says that without L_C_D_ it is going to reduce the cost also,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: and it's going to be much simpler to use.
Industrial Designer: Yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so let's go back to our laboratory and {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} To improve on the design.
Project Manager: What a what what about the sys speech recognition?
Marketing: So.
Project Manager: {gap} what about the integration of speech recognition?
User Interface: Huh? The speech recogniser is a add-on module. Right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That's going to be an optional.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: If somebody wants to buy it they can have it, otherwise no.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah so it's optional with the {disfmarker} okay.
Marketing: It's an optional.
Industrial Designer: It's optional yeah, since well according to this study uh people more {vocalsound} likes more to have a spongy uh {vocalsound} remote control than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it will be {disfmarker} I think i
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control, because maybe parents will lose these uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but I mean if you have an add-ons, the kids may just uh hide the parental module
Project Manager: Yeah. Or ma yeah.
Marketing: and so that their parents can't use it {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same {disfmarker}
Marketing: In the same set, yeah,
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} The problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component, and doesn't want the parental control because it's a couple who do not have children {disfmarker} {vocalsound} when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people, and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them. So we might lose the customer because of this. I don't know,
Project Manager: So you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional {disfmarker} uh will be optional.
User Interface: what do you think uh? Yes exa what do you think, I don't know. You are Marketing Manag {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple {disfmarker} or how many couples have a T_V_
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So based on that I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} But the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it inc increase. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well you can {gap} {disfmarker} if you had uh something li
Project Manager: I think it i increases.
Industrial Designer: Oh no,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: because if you if you add uh something {disfmarker} well yeah maybe because it's three different pieces uh to to to build but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: But you can make it on a single P_C_ with three different options.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's I think it's cheaper if you if you already built the all the {vocalsound} functionalities um on the same module, but uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} Mm. Yeah.
Marketing: On the same P_C_B_
User Interface: Well well the other aspect is that if {vocalsound} in the {disfmarker} when they have the ar existing product you you gonna maintain the the {disfmarker} you're gonna keep the same customer,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: yeah yeah.
User Interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: So so {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean you could just provide with an optional {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah i i so if don't don't buy now they can buy i in the future. So in in that way you're actually keeping the cus the same customer, attracting them to come back in again and again.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's something like a Microsoft product {vocalsound} update.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And and we we we we we we don't want that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We're not trying to follow the Microsoft and we don't want to the m {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Updates and we sell it. We make updates and sell it {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be {disfmarker} can be upgraded, it would be a good thing right?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, it depends on the v production. {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh what's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls?
Industrial Designer: Well so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: Do you require different types of P_C_B_s and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um {disfmarker} but I don't think it will uh increase the cost too much so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Or uh it could be like this {disfmarker} the P_C_B_ would be the same for all, but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh well but it's a bit complicated to {disfmarker} if if if you need machines to {disfmarker} different machines to um ah well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. What we can change is to propose the {vocalsound} customers with skins. For example the i the mobile phones nowaday, they sell different kinds of skin
Marketing: Yeah, yeah that's right.
User Interface: and then people just feel that oh I have a new skin and looks better.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah we can have the same global shape
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh?
Industrial Designer: Sponge. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think you need to look into the material.
User Interface: Yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think the Project Manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models.
Project Manager: {gap} Project evaluation project satisfaction, for example. I don't know, we have to ask these question. We have to give answers so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} I suppose that you {gap} this criteria, is it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Project evaluation. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Room for creativity. This room is a bit small, but {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} but I think it's okay for us to work with. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I feel it's fine, we know we don't need uh {disfmarker} I think it's okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah mm.
Industrial Designer: That was good.
Marketing: This is fine for making a presentat for project presentations.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it's okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: And the leadership was excellent.
Project Manager: Yeah I think so {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good job {vocalsound} good job.
Industrial Designer: Fine yes uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He gave you the liberty to talk as you wants {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Yeah that's right. Yeah that's right.
Project Manager: Uh the teamwork was very very good. I was really {disfmarker} I am very satisfying to work with with you.
Industrial Designer: Very democratic.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Alright.
Marketing: And new ideas found. Any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting?
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Come up with new product {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Less fancy.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean uh what type of product would you think {disfmarker} could we make this more interesting?
User Interface: Mm we {disfmarker} I I know something, we need more cakes, more biscuits on the table while we have meetings. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah and also more well uh {vocalsound} more seriously I think it's it's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that, but I think it's alright. We achieved uh project goal I think.
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: De
Marketing: that is within the budget.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's w yes, more or less.
Marketing: And the evaluation was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Without without L_C_D_, without speech recognition, it will be simple.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright. So.
Marketing: And the next is celebration.
Industrial Designer: So uh coffee machine.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} free free coffee
User Interface: {vocalsound} Alright then, we finished?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah thank you for your work and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah thank you, thank you very much.
User Interface: Thank you very much. | Marketing made evaluation criteria. The first thing was fancy look and feel, the second was innovativeness, the third was easy to use. Then Marketing asked Industrial Designer and User Interface to give scores towards two versions of the prototype according to the scale. Both Industrial Designer and User Interface gave three or four points to look and feel, six points to innovativeness and also six points to easy to use. The team decided to make the remote control without LCD and to improve the design to make it fancy. They would have all the functions in the same set, but some functions, like speech recognition, would be optional. The team would look into the shape and material of the set. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {gap}. {vocalsound} So let's see the {disfmarker} what did you prepare.
User Interface: Yeah, so can you go out to the shared folder? Mm the shared folder.
Project Manager: Sh share folder for th your presentation?
User Interface: Yes. We have a presentation.
Project Manager: Because I have here {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {gap} So I got the participant uh three. W uh {vocalsound}. Three. It's the final design, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay just one {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} S so so I discussed with Guillaume.
Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Right. {vocalsound} And uh {vocalsound} so we have {vocalsound} {disfmarker} and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes, because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an L_C_D_ or not because it's too expensive. So we come up with two versions. One with and one without L_C_D_s. Um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or {gap} control module. And detachable big buttons for all people um. So {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S okay so I'll show you the the two prototypes {vocalsound}. Here we have the first one with the beautiful uh L_C_D_ um display. You you can s here. And you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: You can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it's considered like a enter function.
User Interface: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: You have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the {vocalsound} for the speech recognition system here.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And here the the switch that control if you want {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why you why you you put it in the the side?
Industrial Designer: Well I I I think uh it's the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not a good place maybe {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: No i i it's the all around camer uh microphone isn't it. The the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Is it an only a single mic or a microphone array?
Industrial Designer: Well so it's a microphone array.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh it's very costly, microphone array {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's just a single microphone, and you {disfmarker} I I think uh we we put it here because I think when you when you are browsing your L_C_D_ you will be close to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: well it's better to to to place it here th than here, for instance.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off. And uh so this remote control comes up with its charger.
Project Manager: How much does it cost this one?
Industrial Designer: Well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars
User Interface: For the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen dollars?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} fifteen dollars,
Project Manager: Ah it's above it's above the budget.
Industrial Designer: but uh well it's not it's not uh {disfmarker} yeah, but uh it's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh {disfmarker} voila.
Marketing: The cost would be le reduced.
Industrial Designer: Yeah the {gap} and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars. {gap}
User Interface: Mm. Hmm.
Project Manager: How many b battery is there?
Industrial Designer: How many, excuse me?
Project Manager: Battery.
Industrial Designer: Well uh f battery, we use uh about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is it n the two A_A_s batteries in it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: A_A_ rechargeable batteries.
Industrial Designer: Rechargeable of course,
User Interface: Yeah rechargeable batteries.
Industrial Designer: because we have the charger.
User Interface: We have the charger so it's no problem.
Industrial Designer: Yeah and you just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So one one battery?
Industrial Designer: On uh yeah one battery.
Marketing: Is that two or one?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's kinetic reserve.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Actually uh it's a flexible thing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You just n uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Now what is the whole day rating for that?
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} excuse me?
Marketing: Whole day's rating.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What type of battery?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah it's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: if you uh like it's exist.
Marketing: Something like a two A_, A_ three size batteries?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and uh leave it uh alone, it's alright.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} At uh {vocalsound} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Then the next time you pick it, oh
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it works {vocalsound}.
User Interface: I forgot to tell you there is only a single button there, b this button {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah just explain the button uh Norman.
User Interface: yeah alright. This button is like the mouse {disfmarker} is like a joystick,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it {disfmarker} the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can move up, down, left, right, or you can do a swing. So a swing to the left, a swing to the right defines other functions. So even though it's a single button, but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement {vocalsound}.
Marketing: And the L_C_D_ is this one, on the remote?
User Interface: Yeah. This is the version y that comes with L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Here I present another version without the L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is {gap} getting destroyed.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If you
User Interface: Uh okay this is new prototype uh {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration. The second version is also simpler, we d uh we had just uh I have to put the microphone also {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So basically th it's the same uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh-huh and also the switch.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Basically it's the same uh things uh uh as uh I presented before. But here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation. Press one button uh acting as a a enter button.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So um yeah according to what you said it's more robust to the user.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And uh it's also cheaper to produce. We can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No four dollars, it's {vocalsound} {gap} good. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger,
User Interface: Oh no
Marketing: because that's a major that's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: th actually th we'll come to that point in our {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's it's it's embed in the uh speech recognition system.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then?
User Interface: W w I'll I'll come to that point later on.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} so Norman will explain to you {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm.
Project Manager: And we will we will serve the charger with this?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah of course mm {gap}.
User Interface: Th they {vocalsound} either these with the {disfmarker} uh the the charger any
Project Manager: With the remote control.
User Interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so the price of the charger included in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh it's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Thank thank you {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so mm-hmm.
User Interface: It's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types. I think we have to investigate more on that, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The price should be below twelve and a half Euro.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah
Project Manager: Well that's {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
User Interface: but as the Marketing Manager says, people is willing to {disfmarker} people are willing to pay more for good design.
Project Manager: We have we have just {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah people are willing to pay more,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment.
Project Manager: The price of selling is twenty five Euros.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And the price of production {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright please uh go on Norman with the special features {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah we'll we'll come up to that, the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more. If you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so is uh modular.
Project Manager: That's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more.
User Interface: Yeah yeah,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: for example the L_C_D_, you can take it you can put it {disfmarker} put it back in, or you can use the other one,
Marketing: Something like customised. Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: or {vocalsound} the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You want a microphone to put in the {vocalsound} speech recogniser you don't wan you pay less for the system you see {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm okay.
User Interface: It's pretty flexible in the yeah price {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {gap} You also have the the the two other modules for the parental control
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh yeah yeah you should present that.
Industrial Designer: that that you ca you can add up {vocalsound} to the {disfmarker} to your remote control
Marketing: And this is other one?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do, and uh which channel you want to choose and so on.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: H here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch T_V_, up {disfmarker} they come up with their modules,
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
Industrial Designer: they just plug in it
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and they can have all the control they want here.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: We also have this module for uh old people with big buttons, clearly labelled,
User Interface: Hmm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it acts like the previous one,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: you just plug in and it works.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful. Simplicity meaning that we have few buttons, powerful is that all the controls with {vocalsound} the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities. But in addition with simplicity. So that's the best idea, the cond that that's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Okay now we come to other important features that I did not tell you. The first one is the speech recogniser, again it's detachable or add-on. And then we also have security feature for example this here {disfmarker} oop {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's very robust {gap}, it doesn't break and the material, what's the material again?
Industrial Designer: The titanium
Project Manager: Titanium.
Industrial Designer: and so it's very uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one, again because this is A_A_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want.
Marketing: Yeah that's fine.
User Interface: Lithium-ion may be a good one, but you can replace it with cheaper one, again you pay for what you get, and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder. So when you finish watching your T_V_ {vocalsound} and you the you t you turn off the T_V_, uh and then there's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger, so so that's the {disfmarker} or is it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: that's the reminder part. Yeah and um {disfmarker} And it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary, so we didn't define the vocabulary so it's up to the user to define
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm.
User Interface: so {disfmarker} sorry? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a {gap} of T_V_ programmes by genre, and this can be used by the adult or by the children. So instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the T_V_ contents of the night. So it's pretty powerful, and that's that's why the num buttons are reduced, because of this feature. Yeah. And {vocalsound} and for the materials that is cheap to produce I think uh it's quite clear from {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: And also like the {gap} and the fancy designs yeah.
Project Manager: What what's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe we can improve more on the design but {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What's the price to p to produce?
User Interface: {disfmarker} uh this is the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well so the price to produce {disfmarker} For uh the simplest one, say we start from four dollars to produce such a device.
Project Manager: With with with the charge?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's about it {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} without without the charger
Marketing: With the charger?
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules, and finally three dollars for the charger. So if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the L_C_D_ {vocalsound}, which costs two dollar, you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: We don't have charger. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we can use Excel {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's about {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We don't have all the options {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars.
Project Manager: Charger we don't have charger here either.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No it's
Industrial Designer: But it's just if you want all functionalities.
Project Manager: it's below the the the budget.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Excuse me?
Project Manager: It's below the bu the budget.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it's a nice input
Project Manager: We {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: I think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements, and we can finalise the product based on this discu
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: I think we can just go to my presentation then. We can wind up. Or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings, and uh in the market the people are not really interested with L_C_D_, without L_C_D_, with speech recognition interface, or without speech recognition interface, but most of the people what they are interested is {disfmarker} first thing is, they want to have an fancy look and feel, it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm.
Marketing: And the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Of course in that we could put L_C_D_ or recognition to be more technologically innovative. And the third one is easy to use.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well I think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we haven't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the T_V_ screen uh uh with just four buttons.
Marketing: Okay and if we go to the next slide, here you can find {disfmarker} these are the latest fashion updates, and so this {disfmarker} in Paris and Milan {gap} they have detected this trends that the this year it's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable, so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable, or whatever they like.
User Interface: Spongy spongy. Mm mm.
Marketing: So I think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes.
User Interface: Mm {vocalsound} mm.
Marketing: And the second thing is, and if the material, they really do not want it to be very hard, as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium, it should be somewhat spongy.
User Interface: But the the problem is that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} is it robust to mishandling?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: We have {disfmarker} you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: A sponge. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah so uh {vocalsound} so finally we have these three criterias.
User Interface: Spongy {vocalsound}.
Marketing: One is fancy look, second is innovative, and third is easy to use.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these,
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Marketing: say that we have a seven point scale, from one to seven,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So now you have with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_,
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: so on this scale, if it is true, if it is {disfmarker} if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one, or if it is false, it doesn't {disfmarker} it looks uh {disfmarker} it doesn't look much fancy, then you could just tell me seven. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} We can make our study on this and {disfmarker}
User Interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users?
Marketing: No no we have {disfmarker} you have designed two products now,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: one is with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: But who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party?
Project Manager: You.
Marketing: According to you, no according to you designers, how will feel {disfmarker} does it uh with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Okay let us make this L_ and without L_C_D_. On on this scale the L_C_D_ remote control. How do you look {disfmarker} how does it look?
User Interface: Mm. Mm.
Marketing: D is it very fancy or doesn't look much fancy?
Industrial Designer: Well it doesn't look much fancy I'll I'll say three or four.
Marketing: And you both agree for that?
Project Manager: And you?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we can improve on the design.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh {gap} {vocalsound} design.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. It's it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um we have been focused all all this {vocalsound} time on the {vocalsound} on the technical aspect, functional aspect, but also the simplicity.
Industrial Designer: Technical aspects.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: As for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help {vocalsound}.
Marketing: So I take three on {disfmarker} with L_C_D_?
Industrial Designer: Yeah a three.
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ how would you rate it?
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Uh four. I think it's it's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it's not complicated
Marketing: Four.
Industrial Designer: so removing the L_C_D_ um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: And in the sense of innovativeness, with L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: Well it's it's the same for both so {vocalsound} I will give a five, six. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Five with L_C_D_ and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well five also uh {disfmarker} Norman please. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: from the innovation aspect I feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um {vocalsound} the retrieval of T_V_ programmes by content, because uh that is really innovative, and for now {disfmarker} and another innovation we have is simplicity and {disfmarker} simplicity, few buttons, we've uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} A lot of functionalities.
Industrial Designer: With lot of functionalities.
User Interface: So that is uh that is uh for both th
Marketing: So without L_C_D_?
User Interface: Our gi I think that the our our product is uh has the best in all {disfmarker} well this is a biased judgement {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because we designed them.
Marketing: No no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness?
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Uh the innovation is v is very high I think.
Project Manager: For L_C_D_.
Marketing: With L_C_D_.
User Interface: Both.
Marketing: And without L_C_D_?
Industrial Designer: Mm for both it's the the same innovations.
User Interface: For both. It's the same innovation. So maybe I can put six to seven.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap} six, let's go for six.
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_.
User Interface: Both.
Marketing: No actually uh to make it with L_C_D_ you make more efforts. So I {disfmarker} there is high innovativeness included if you make it with L_C_D_ y
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: then when it is without L_C_D_ there is not much innovativeness.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Uh no innovative yeah.
User Interface: Uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the L_C_D_?
Marketing: So we can't go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Talk about {disfmarker}
User Interface: We haven't really uh determined {vocalsound} what are {disfmarker} actually actually
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean that what you are sayin that's what the design {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's good to have a L_C_D_ but what are we gonna display on a L_C_D_? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No it's like this,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean on the L_C_D_, according to what I understand from your model is, you have a joystick here, and you have L_C_D_, you just press your joystick, you get here a programme.
Project Manager: So let's remove it.
User Interface: Yeah? Yeah. Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but you have the same programme on the T_V_ screen.
Marketing: Uh then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes exactly.
Project Manager: This is the problem.
Marketing: No on the T_V_ you don't it doesn't display on the T_V_ now.
Industrial Designer: If you have the L_C_D_, but if n
Marketing: L_C_D_? Then uh there is no meaning in having it on the T_V_.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Or then again you have a channels, volume and all the stuff and what a
User Interface: But you cannot display all on a L_C_D_.
Marketing: I mean that depends upon your design, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Anyway for for the users who who who opt for L_C_D_ {vocalsound} we'll give them the give them the L_C_D_,
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: we give what the customer uh wants, right.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness? And which {gap} do you recommend e easy to use, with L_C_D_ or without L_C_D_?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons,
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear, well-organised, so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so I will give a six for the easy to use.
User Interface: Yeah I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No it's just if I I see the the f the rate I think it's better to do it without L_C_D_.
User Interface: sorry. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because that's with L_C_D_ just will increase the price,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and I thi i they have the same rate so without L_C_D_ it will be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates. So I mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: without L_C_D_ and without speech recognition. Even then our product is going to be very good.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's cheaper to produce.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} S {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh if the the {disfmarker} well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: Yeah. I have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect. I think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: For the young generation easy to use may be very complicated
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons. For kids they want simply the {gap} s similarit for the old people they want simplicity,
Marketing: Yeah yeah that's right.
User Interface: so that's why {vocalsound} we have the parental module. Uh we can ha have {disfmarker} build a more complex design if if they want it, but but uh what I'm trying to say here is that the um {disfmarker} we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people. So in terms of easy to use I think it's very user customisable. User customisation is very important yeah. Yeah
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six.
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ I just take it five?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: W uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or you want it to be six?
User Interface: I think it's the same.
Industrial Designer: Um six.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes as you say, with better uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_.
Marketing: S s oh I think it's better to have this without L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah. And to improve the the look.
Marketing: As our Programme Manager s Pro Project Manager says that without L_C_D_ it is going to reduce the cost also,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: and it's going to be much simpler to use.
Industrial Designer: Yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so let's go back to our laboratory and {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} To improve on the design.
Project Manager: What a what what about the sys speech recognition?
Marketing: So.
Project Manager: {gap} what about the integration of speech recognition?
User Interface: Huh? The speech recogniser is a add-on module. Right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That's going to be an optional.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: If somebody wants to buy it they can have it, otherwise no.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah so it's optional with the {disfmarker} okay.
Marketing: It's an optional.
Industrial Designer: It's optional yeah, since well according to this study uh people more {vocalsound} likes more to have a spongy uh {vocalsound} remote control than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it will be {disfmarker} I think i
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control, because maybe parents will lose these uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but I mean if you have an add-ons, the kids may just uh hide the parental module
Project Manager: Yeah. Or ma yeah.
Marketing: and so that their parents can't use it {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same {disfmarker}
Marketing: In the same set, yeah,
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} The problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component, and doesn't want the parental control because it's a couple who do not have children {disfmarker} {vocalsound} when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people, and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them. So we might lose the customer because of this. I don't know,
Project Manager: So you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional {disfmarker} uh will be optional.
User Interface: what do you think uh? Yes exa what do you think, I don't know. You are Marketing Manag {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple {disfmarker} or how many couples have a T_V_
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So based on that I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} But the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it inc increase. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well you can {gap} {disfmarker} if you had uh something li
Project Manager: I think it i increases.
Industrial Designer: Oh no,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: because if you if you add uh something {disfmarker} well yeah maybe because it's three different pieces uh to to to build but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: But you can make it on a single P_C_ with three different options.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's I think it's cheaper if you if you already built the all the {vocalsound} functionalities um on the same module, but uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} Mm. Yeah.
Marketing: On the same P_C_B_
User Interface: Well well the other aspect is that if {vocalsound} in the {disfmarker} when they have the ar existing product you you gonna maintain the the {disfmarker} you're gonna keep the same customer,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: yeah yeah.
User Interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: So so {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean you could just provide with an optional {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah i i so if don't don't buy now they can buy i in the future. So in in that way you're actually keeping the cus the same customer, attracting them to come back in again and again.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's something like a Microsoft product {vocalsound} update.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And and we we we we we we don't want that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We're not trying to follow the Microsoft and we don't want to the m {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Updates and we sell it. We make updates and sell it {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be {disfmarker} can be upgraded, it would be a good thing right?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, it depends on the v production. {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh what's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls?
Industrial Designer: Well so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: Do you require different types of P_C_B_s and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um {disfmarker} but I don't think it will uh increase the cost too much so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Or uh it could be like this {disfmarker} the P_C_B_ would be the same for all, but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh well but it's a bit complicated to {disfmarker} if if if you need machines to {disfmarker} different machines to um ah well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. What we can change is to propose the {vocalsound} customers with skins. For example the i the mobile phones nowaday, they sell different kinds of skin
Marketing: Yeah, yeah that's right.
User Interface: and then people just feel that oh I have a new skin and looks better.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah we can have the same global shape
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh?
Industrial Designer: Sponge. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think you need to look into the material.
User Interface: Yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think the Project Manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models.
Project Manager: {gap} Project evaluation project satisfaction, for example. I don't know, we have to ask these question. We have to give answers so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} I suppose that you {gap} this criteria, is it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Project evaluation. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Room for creativity. This room is a bit small, but {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} but I think it's okay for us to work with. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I feel it's fine, we know we don't need uh {disfmarker} I think it's okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah mm.
Industrial Designer: That was good.
Marketing: This is fine for making a presentat for project presentations.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it's okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: And the leadership was excellent.
Project Manager: Yeah I think so {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good job {vocalsound} good job.
Industrial Designer: Fine yes uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He gave you the liberty to talk as you wants {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Yeah that's right. Yeah that's right.
Project Manager: Uh the teamwork was very very good. I was really {disfmarker} I am very satisfying to work with with you.
Industrial Designer: Very democratic.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Alright.
Marketing: And new ideas found. Any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting?
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Come up with new product {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Less fancy.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean uh what type of product would you think {disfmarker} could we make this more interesting?
User Interface: Mm we {disfmarker} I I know something, we need more cakes, more biscuits on the table while we have meetings. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah and also more well uh {vocalsound} more seriously I think it's it's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that, but I think it's alright. We achieved uh project goal I think.
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: De
Marketing: that is within the budget.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's w yes, more or less.
Marketing: And the evaluation was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Without without L_C_D_, without speech recognition, it will be simple.
Marketing: Yeah that's right.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright. So.
Marketing: And the next is celebration.
Industrial Designer: So uh coffee machine.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} free free coffee
User Interface: {vocalsound} Alright then, we finished?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah thank you for your work and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah thank you, thank you very much.
User Interface: Thank you very much. | Industrial Designer and User Interface gave a presentation about two versions of the prototype, one with and one without LCD. They both had a speech recognition system, microphone, a few number of buttons, rechargeable batteries and different modules. The prototype with LCD was too expensive, while the other one was quite cheap. Marketing made evaluation criteria. The scale included fancy look and feel, innovativeness and easy to use. Then Marketing asked Industrial Designer and User Interface to give scores towards two versions of the prototype according to the scale. Both Industrial Designer and User Interface gave average points to look and feel, high points to innovativeness and to easy to use. At the end of the meeting, group members did project evaluation. They felt good about leadership and teamwork. | qmsum |
What did the team discuss during the product evaluation?
Project Manager: Okay, welcome to the detailed design meeting. Again, I'm gonna take minutes. Oh, we're gonna have a prototype presentation first.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh, who's gonna give the prototype presentation? You two guys? Okay. Go ahead.
Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} coffee.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'Kay, we've made a prototype. Um, we've got uh {vocalsound} uh our aspects from the last meeting. Uh, especially we looked at the form, material and the colour. Um, we've uh drawn here the p prototype. The logo is uh is uh {vocalsound} is pretty uh {vocalsound} obvious to see on the on the remote control,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher. Um, {vocalsound} our interface elements, there are shown in the in the drawing. Maybe you can uh point them uh {disfmarker} The functions.
User Interface: Uh, well the uh {disfmarker} all the functions are discussed uh {disfmarker} I think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious. Uh, it's a little bit. Uh, power button. Uh then the the the nine uh channels.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh the volume uh uh at the side, and the other side is the programmes. And then we had uh just uh two buttons, we place them in the middle, uh the menu, and for the teletext
Project Manager: Oh no, the the the mute button misses now.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I thought that was th
Marketing: Alright, I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do y do you {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh, the mute button.
Project Manager: did we want to have a m mute button?
Industrial Designer: But uh that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's uh here then, in the middle.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Huh.
Marketing: Alright, and uh you gotta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button.
Industrial Designer: Yes, um
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well, yeah mo uh mo
Industrial Designer: we've disc
User Interface: Yeah, well most of them are right-handed.
Industrial Designer: Most of the users
Marketing: Yeah, but you you gotta make it clear on the {disfmarker} on {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah well, I don't have time in uh anymore on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, y there there will be a p a little a little P_ on that and a little uh {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, and a and a triangle on that.
User Interface: Oh yeah, just progr programme above, I think.
Marketing: Yes. Next to that I kinda miss a zero actually.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wait, there's {disfmarker} was one thing I wanted to ask.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, there are different ways for remote controls to uh {vocalsound} do uh like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh d I call it teens and twenties. Uh, y th th th the two numbers.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: All n no, that's um {vocalsound} kinda dependent on the television.
User Interface: Yeah, true, yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's a television. Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, but do we have {disfmarker} do we need extra buttons,
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} for example some uh some have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I think so.
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, yes, you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it, uh th with the one and a double uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, I think you should add {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Zero?
Marketing: A cross, or whatever. Yeah, line.
Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't you don't actually need them,
User Interface: May maybe here?
Industrial Designer: yes.
Project Manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first, then you have a couple of seconds {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. And then a second.
Marketing: No, that's dependent on the television.
Project Manager: No, I don't think so.
Industrial Designer: Yes, you have televisions, then you have to, you know, you have to uh press {disfmarker}
Marketing: I do know so.
User Interface: Is it depending on television?
Project Manager: Nah, I don't think so really,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because you have a {disfmarker} I know some remote controls that don't have these buttons, but you still can, know, obviously you can still select the twenty {disfmarker} uh a number in the twenty or in the ten.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but but a lot {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes, but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they come with the television. Or actually, the other way around.
Project Manager: No, I think {disfmarker} uh I really think it's n
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because you can {disfmarker} when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash, it's the same thing as when you just push the one,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but
Marketing: Yeah, well {disfmarker} but su {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: some televisions don't accept uh that that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, because that's i it's for television. It's exact the same thing.
Industrial Designer: No, no, but s
Marketing: No no no. So some television respond differently. Look, if uh i i
Project Manager: No, listen listen. When you push the button, the remote control gives a signal. I in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it.
Marketing: Yes. Yes, that's true.
Project Manager: The one with dash, that signal gi and when y whe when you don't push another button on the remote control within five seconds, then the remote control gives a signal for channel one.
User Interface: Yeah. True.
Marketing: No {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it works that way, really.
Marketing: No, it it it works uh if you haven't got uh a special button for it, uh if you push a one, then on your television there will appear a one and a a line, which is an empty space.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but it's exact the same {gap} that w would appear when you put a separate button {disfmarker} push a separate button.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button, uh then you go to a a next level, you can push two buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't underst uh you don't understand my point.
Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound} True.
Project Manager: I think it's exact the same thing when y
Industrial Designer: You want {disfmarker} Yes, but some television don't support it.
Project Manager: No, but then they would a would also support that button, because it's the same thing.
User Interface: But the ex
Project Manager: Listen, with {disfmarker} that that's that special but button {gap} you're talking about, eh? That's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv T_V_ that they have to put a one in {disfmarker} on your screen and a dash, which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it. When you don't have that separate button, and you push y one, it's exactly the same thing. Do y you {disfmarker} the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No,
Marketing: No, s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c
Industrial Designer: a remote can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes,
Project Manager: But you give the input.
Industrial Designer: so they need {disfmarker} no, they need {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You push the one. That's the same thing as the button with the one and it {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, that's not true.
Project Manager: yes it it is.
Marketing: It's simply not true. It's simply not true.
Project Manager: Think about it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No,
User Interface: You uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash, and then wait uh two uh seconds or something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one.
Marketing: No, remote control doesn't give signal after five seconds. Remote control is a stupid thing. If you push a button, it sends it immediately to to the television.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, but I m uh but it's {disfmarker} I I know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied, only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash, but when you use a bu a n remote control that doesn't sport these buttons, it still works.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But okay, we we'll impl
Marketing: No, definitely not. Definitely not.
User Interface: We'll discuss them in the usability lab.
Project Manager: No, we'll apply them then for now.
User Interface: Uh eva evaluation.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know uh I don't know if if it's it's necessary.
Project Manager: Yeah, app just apply them next to the zero, the one and the two.
User Interface: Yeah?
Project Manager: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, for now, if we don't know for sure whether {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: And the button for the SCART uh audio video uh external input.
Marketing: Yes.
User Interface: Ach.
Project Manager: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, you can access that uh via zero, and then minus, I guess.
Project Manager: okay. {vocalsound} What I said about uh the remote control sending another signal, that that might not be true,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but I still think i it it {disfmarker} all T_V_s in some ways support it, I don't know. I think it's more c is m maybe we don't {disfmarker} uh we both don't really understand how it i how it really works,
Industrial Designer: No, no.
Project Manager: but I think there's more to in than wha than what you just said.
Industrial Designer: Uh, remote control sends one signal at one button uh press.
Project Manager: I do think that uh m T_V_s support mur multiple kind of remote controls. M
Industrial Designer: Uh, some {disfmarker} N some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Th won't work wi with uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals.
Project Manager: to have that special button.
Industrial Designer: When you uh press one button, you give one signal. And the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, well we'll see.
Marketing: Yep.
Industrial Designer: When you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals, it could work, but {disfmarker} Just a basic idea of of of the most uh {disfmarker} most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote.
Marketing: Okay. I kinda miss the docking station.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. It's here on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah, uh there's nothing {disfmarker} I think it's pretty basic,
Industrial Designer: We came uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: the the {disfmarker} there's no fu
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: there's one there's one button,
Marketing: No nothing really trendy about it.
User Interface: that's wha there's there's there's one function and that's n the one button when you want to find it.
Industrial Designer: But maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell,
Marketing: The button.
Industrial Designer: because Real {vocalsound} Real Reaction sells more products than only remote controls. So maybe we can uh use the docking station, for example, uh M_P_ three players or or uh
Marketing: Yep.
Industrial Designer: uh hearing devices.
Marketing: I think that's very difficult, because of different shapes of uh uh devices.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but when you put that same volt voltages on it, you can put uh {disfmarker} when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it, when it's o the same as the other products, you can put it all on the same uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, of course. Mm-hmm. Well it it got it {disfmarker} it has got to fit into the shape, of course.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but we can make {disfmarker}
Marketing: The technology and the voltage can be the same. That's uh that's true. But uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this, then they all fit.
Industrial Designer: No, we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same.
Marketing: Yeah, that's true, but uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: When when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out, we can place all on top of it. Just have to be big enough for the biggest {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes, but uh I I g Shouldn't it fall then? It {disfmarker} isn't going to fall down? {vocalsound} That's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, when you make it large enough no it it will not.
Marketing: yeah, I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But then it's a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, but if if {disfmarker} like this, I'll I'll point it out, if you got uh a a a base a base like this,
Industrial Designer: But it's just an idea.
Marketing: I won't draw it really. If you got a base which is uh as big as this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But it's flat it's flat as as this, so we can p make all the products as flat as this.
User Interface: You can. But i i i it's backwards.
Marketing: Yeah sure, but if you got if you got a tiny player, it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes, but when you make uh uh a bit of big {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it's it's backwards. It's leaning. It's leaning backwards, I think, in the in the docking station.
Marketing: Yeah. Uh, wha what you could do if you uh {disfmarker} from the bottom {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's text. {vocalsound}
Marketing: oh, right, help.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, you could make like a hole in it, you know, of uh {disfmarker} in in the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, little holer {disfmarker} littler {disfmarker} Uh, little products go deeper in it.
Marketing: Yeah. That i that is possible, yep.
Project Manager: Well let's ha let's talk about the docking station later, because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway, because we have some uh cost issues {vocalsound} still to come.
Marketing: Yeah, sure, you're right.
Industrial Designer: Yes. And uh uh
Marketing: Oh.
Project Manager: But we have to look n I don't know.
Industrial Designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control, because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area.
Marketing: I don't like the colours. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Then your uh left thumb of uh {disfmarker} your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button, which is the most common used uh function, and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So it's it's it's really good design.
Marketing: Yeah. Alright.
Project Manager: Yes. That's it?
Industrial Designer: Yes, uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber, and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material, a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it.
Marketing: The light. Okay. And other lights?
Project Manager: I think added lights are gonna be a problem too.
Industrial Designer: Yes, we can make also n neon lights on it, or or the buttons that can make uh light on it.
Marketing: No, o on the on the front. Yeah, okay. Maybe the uh the logo.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {gap} lights?
Industrial Designer: But, it will also uh uh use batteries,
Marketing: Yeah, why not?
Industrial Designer: and do we want to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Of course.
Project Manager: Okay. For now, uh this is uh is good enough.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah, what was uh on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, but in the {disfmarker} oh yeah, the colour, because we're gonna use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber, isn't it? Then we're gonna do the buttons in the i are we're gonna have rubber buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: And they're be a {disfmarker} {gap} they'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Uh, in the same colour as the side.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, I think I think that'll be good.
Project Manager: Okay. And I think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic, and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights,
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: so it will uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, we'll talk about the lights later.'Cause I also don yeah,
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: it's depends on the costs and such. But uh, and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: but may I dunno if that's important, but we'll talk about that later. Okay, for now this is this is okay.
Marketing: We will.
Project Manager: Um, the next p y you gonna give a presentation too? Uh, I have to see the agenda.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Well, uh yeah, I I'm gonna do something right there, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Detail design.
Marketing: We gotta do that on the right {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the most {disfmarker} right-most screen, because the leftmost {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Evaluation criteria.
Marketing: Yep, that's me.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Alright. I will be needing that image, so leave it please. Um {disfmarker} Go away. Right, we're gonna evaluate that design according to a few points. {vocalsound} Um, we g the four of us are going to do that um together.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I wanna have a colour over here, come on. Right, the remote {vocalsound} is not ugly, a bit weird sentence, but the positive things has to be on the left, so I {vocalsound} said not ugly instead of ugly.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, what would you say, we we gotta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design, and please forget the drawing skills of these guys.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote control is not ugly. How do you feel?
Project Manager: Yeah, I think four maybe would be appropriate, because it's {disfmarker} Yeah, maybe it really depends on taste. Uh, I mean it's kind of {gap}, our design. It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly, you know, o other people find it really cool.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Background colour.
Project Manager: I don't know or uh I don't know how you {disfmarker} Casting. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think I think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side, because you can uh make it in your own {disfmarker}
Marketing: How do you guys feel? The different designs.
Industrial Designer: yes, you can make it in your own uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: more to your own personality or or house style.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we d we didn't {disfmarker} we're we're not planning to use fronts, I believe.
Marketing: No, not not fronts, but different designs.
Project Manager: With a colour a co a colours. Oh, okay.
User Interface: No, not fronts. Different designs. Different colours maybe, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: And that's still uh uh, yeah, is is uh is a little personal touch, I guess.
Project Manager: Okay, but {disfmarker} Oh, maybe we should do three or something that w you know, our {disfmarker}
Marketing: What? Yeah, wha wha what would you uh guys uh think? Personally.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Or forty. {vocalsound}
User Interface: We can make it a one.
Marketing: Personally. Yes, but what is it?
Industrial Designer: I think two or three.
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Guido?
User Interface: I agree.
Marketing: Two or three.
User Interface: Um, I uh I go for the positive. So I go for two.
Marketing: I was {disfmarker} I was thinking about three, so I guess
Project Manager: Uh, I was thinking about four, so I think three is uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay, three.
Marketing: three is uh a bit uh {disfmarker} oh, what am I doing? I'll mark it. The remote control's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah well, let that {disfmarker} let's make that a one. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Two. One. One.
Marketing: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Antek, you agree?
User Interface: Okay yeah, I'll I'll agree.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: That's one thing for sure.
Marketing: Yeah. You're not Antek.
User Interface: I'm the I'm the usability, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I totally agree. The remote control the remote control's relevant buttons are prominently visible.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, two or a one, I guess.
User Interface: The {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's something we really put work into.
Marketing: Yeah, I {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's all about the buttons.
Marketing: I would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant. {vocalsound} And our {disfmarker} oh yeah, it's a b yeah. Yeah? Alright. That's a one? You agree?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: The remote control hasn't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons. I think we totally succeeded there.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well maybe a two, because of the menu button or something.
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, well menu {disfmarker} Yeah, maybe.
Marketing: Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Project Manager: And telete
Industrial Designer: Also, the the the buttons of the one, the two, the the digits,
Project Manager: Yeah, we don't know if the {disfmarker} uh they're necessary.
Industrial Designer: o they're used uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} the the {disfmarker} yeah, m well, you d you've got a point.
Project Manager: I think a two.
User Interface: Yeah, true. Yeah, I agree.
Industrial Designer: Can {disfmarker} yes, three, two.
Project Manager: Came a long way, but not {disfmarker} we didn't not uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two or three?
User Interface: Mm two.
Industrial Designer: But you can't make a remote control without them,
Marketing: Two? Antek.
User Interface: Because we got {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nay that that that's true, that's true. They're definitely needed.
Project Manager: No, w w it can also always be more simplistic, but two is {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} we put it on a two?
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: The remote control has got a really trendy look.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. A one.
Project Manager: Yeah, uh a t I think a two.
Marketing: Maarten.
User Interface: Well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah, y i it's hard to say from this picture.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} we've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Ever, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Guido.
Project Manager: But I do think it's more {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, I will I will make it a three, because uh {disfmarker} yeah. I I th
Project Manager: But I do think that it's more trendy than beautiful.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yeah, uh I agree. I agree.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So so I think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. True, yeah.
Marketing: I was planning to give it a two, uh where I give the not ugly uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A th a three.
Marketing: oh, yeah, that's true. You agree on the two?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I i uh when you compare to the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Great. Remote control hasn't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons.
Project Manager: Uh uh what's the difference with {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, I copied that one. Well, uh forget that.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Go away. Remote control has got innovative technology implanted.
User Interface: No. We're not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: well, maybe the the the {disfmarker} on the side.
Industrial Designer: No, not L_C_D_, so.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we uh {disfmarker} {gap} you mean the rubber stuff?
Marketing: Yeah, and the light.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh.
User Interface: And the light maybe.
Industrial Designer: But that that's not innovative.
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I don't u also it's also really not innovative,
Industrial Designer: Lights lights are {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well, I g
Project Manager: it's more {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's not {disfmarker} seven?
Project Manager: No, six. Or seven maybe, {vocalsound} yeah.
User Interface: Well, six. No, six.
Project Manager: Or six.
Industrial Designer: Six.
Marketing: Why uh why not a seven?
User Interface: Six.
Project Manager: Yeah, mine is seven.
Industrial Designer: Because we've tried to make it a little bit innovative,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but it but it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh it's uh depends on the on the maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: How?
Industrial Designer: With the lights it {disfmarker} it's it's kind of future {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, I think I think actually it's a seven maybe, but there's nothing innovative about it.
Marketing: Yeah, you think the lights are innovative? Well, it's n true. Uh, I agree,
Industrial Designer: But still you can retrieve it when it's when it's gone, with the {disfmarker} with {disfmarker}
Marketing: m but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Innovative in generally or just f original for {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'll {disfmarker} Yeah, you you didn't draw the docking station. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} The docking station is a is a little bit innovative.
Project Manager: N no no,
Marketing: Yeah, it it's {disfmarker} I think I think with its {disfmarker}
Project Manager: t {gap}.
User Interface: A docking station is innova
Project Manager: Yeah, I mean the dock station, but but uh, I think the the docking station, {vocalsound} it's gonna be a {gap} kind of a problem.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's a part of the remote.
Marketing: I think more m
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And with the speaker on the {disfmarker} there's also a speaker.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh that {disfmarker} that's n
Project Manager: Well, let's leave it open for uh for us later to see what, because we have to reevaluate anyway. Well I i {gap} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: No?
Marketing: No uh, well, the agenda says evaluate now, so I think we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, for now it's a six or a seven uh, sev
Marketing: It's it's a six.
Project Manager: six maybe,
User Interface: Six.
Project Manager: because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But the retrieval or the {disfmarker}
Marketing: That m f
Project Manager: Yeah, but I don't I don't know if it's very {vocalsound} inno yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, for the retrieval function. Yeah. I think that's very innovative for a remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah, v
Industrial Designer: Yes, {gap} how would you innovate a remote control more?
Project Manager: Yeah, more through uh like function T_V_ functionalities and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: To put it on your head.
Project Manager: no no, you know what I mean.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You have {disfmarker} {gap} must be innovative technology for remote controls, but more in how you control stuff, not in how you find your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah sure, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I d I definitely don't think it's a five,
Project Manager: that's that's {disfmarker} think about it la later on
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Remote control is easy to use.
Project Manager: Yeah, as a a one or a two ma uh at least.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes.
User Interface: Yeah, a two.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: I think a two.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's good.
Marketing: Yeah?
User Interface: More two.
Marketing: Come on. The remote control hasn't got uh {disfmarker} {gap}.
Project Manager: No, I would have seen {vocalsound} that one before. Oh, you skipped one uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I've just filled {disfmarker} uh
Project Manager: Uh, here.
Marketing: Go away.
Industrial Designer: You like the buttons. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I found twelve questions so much, but it still is ten.
Project Manager: Remote control will be bought by {disfmarker}
Marketing: It will be bought by people under the age of forty.
Project Manager: Yeah. Definitely.
User Interface: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: In in {disfmarker} and comparing with uh people of th of the age above?
Marketing: No no no. No, just if they if they buy it.
Project Manager: Uh, just in general. Yeah, a two.
Industrial Designer: We don't know. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, but I think I think two.
Marketing: Yeah, what do you think?
User Interface: Yeah, I think two, yeah. I agree. Two.
Marketing: Antek?
Industrial Designer: Yes, two, but only in c when you compare it with with elderly.
Project Manager: Uh, that is not the question. It's just w it will be bought by people under forty.
Marketing: No, that's no comparison.
Project Manager: Yeah, you can {disfmarker} yeah, you can be very picky about it.
Marketing: And I don't mean two people.
Industrial Designer: This is just guessing.
Project Manager: Ah yeah, just make it {disfmarker} we'll make it a two.
Industrial Designer: Make it a two.
Marketing: W w
Industrial Designer: When it succeeds, uh it can get a two, mu
Marketing: Right, the rem The remote control has recognisable corporate image, colour, logo or slogan.
Project Manager: Oh no. Yeah. Yeah, you have make an
User Interface: We don't have the slogan though.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} slogan is quite obvious {gap}.
Marketing: Oh, the slogan.
Project Manager: Oh the {disfmarker} oh sorry, no, not not the slogan.
Marketing: Can we see the slogan?
Project Manager: Yeah, you can put that on the side if {vocalsound} if we would like to.
User Interface: The logo.
Industrial Designer: A logo.
User Interface: Underneath it or something.
Industrial Designer: Yes, uh encrypted uh with {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, and I will I th still think it's gonna be a two or a three.
Marketing: Are we gonna do that?
User Interface: {vocalsound} A three. Three.
Project Manager: Maybe a three this time.
User Interface: Yeah, a three.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Three? I agree. Because of the slogan {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Remote control's got a basic design intended uh for novice users.
Project Manager: Uh, it's a one or a two.
User Interface: Yeah, two.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, make it a two.
User Interface: Two.
Marketing: Two? Two. Alright. We gotta add up the scores now to see our total average. Four, five, seven, nine. Forget that. Fifteen, seventeen, twenty one, twenty four, twenty six. Twenty six. It's a two point six.
Project Manager: It's not that bad.
Marketing: Alright, we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, and that's mostly the inno
Marketing: yeah.
Project Manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology, we would score two,
Marketing: Yeah. True.
Project Manager: which is uh quite a great score. Okay. Uh, this is {disfmarker} was uh the evaluation?
Marketing: {vocalsound} This was my evaluation. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because I I still think that the most important part of this meeting still has {disfmarker}
Marketing: We did a pretty nice job until now.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Um, is this your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Is there something after this uh meeting? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Whatever. Well, I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire.
User Interface: No. Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Still opened or uh {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, finance. Because um
User Interface: {vocalsound} Shoot.
Project Manager: I received uh a spreadsheet.
Marketing: A five. A five.
Project Manager: Yeah, but I uh actually don't need this presentation, I guess. Oh.
Marketing: Doesn't matter.
Project Manager: I'm gonna open the spreadsheet and we're gonna work this out together, because I didn't really fin uh I have a {gap}.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Didn't really finish it. Well, we uh {disfmarker} We'll see. We'll stumble upon some problems.
Marketing: We probably will.
Project Manager: {gap} I probably have already opened it here. {gap} try it again. First of all, the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list. But let's let's st start with beginning. We include one battery. I i uh I'll explain its {disfmarker} Uh, the the components are listed over here. Uh, price is given. We um {disfmarker} yeah,
Marketing: The amount, yeah.
Project Manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component, how much we need of them. And then uh, we'll uh calcula Don't watch the number yet. I don't know if it's filled in properly. Okay, we need one battery. One battery. I think one battery is enough.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: We don't need kinetic, solar cells, hand dynamo. A s okay, this this is a p first problem. Uh, I think we should know how many simple chips, regular chips {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh it's it's one one chip, but but you have to choose one from it.
Project Manager: Okay. But {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The simple chip is e enough I I think, but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval, it can be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Where did we find this information? Was it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I haven't got an idea on on which we need to use, really.
Project Manager: I think it was uh your job in the first uh meet Uh, f your first presentation to make this clear, but then you had some t time problems.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No, uh I {disfmarker} Yes, my my my uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The the email I got said uh simple chip, but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device, it will uh cost a a bit more, like I think the advanced chip {disfmarker} maybe.
Marketing: Yeah. And how do you know? I mean, you got that email. Did it point out what to use them for?
Industrial Designer: Bec No, the {disfmarker} they didn't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it.
Project Manager: Maybe you can uh look it up right now. Okay, but {disfmarker} okay. When we don't {disfmarker} when we leave the uh retriever and such aside, what {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Then it's a simple chip.
Project Manager: then it would be a simple chip. And with the retriever, it would be an advanced chip.
Industrial Designer: Yes, I I I s I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright, well, point out the advanced chip for now, I guess.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: That will be enough for future uh recommendations.
Project Manager: Yeah, but it will it will it will be {disfmarker} cause a lot of problems. {vocalsound} The sample sensor {disfmarker} sample speaker. What is it m is that the speaker we were t I don't know what it is.
Industrial Designer: I don't know it uh either.
Marketing: I don't know.
Project Manager: Okay, we went for the double-curved case
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: made out of plastic and rubber. And with a special colour. I guess that's what we were {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, special colour. {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah, I don't know about the special colour, but I think w uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise, you get uh a standard uh plastic colour.
User Interface: I don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know if it's very special.
Project Manager: Yeah, I think we uh we have special colours.
User Interface: Mm okay.
Industrial Designer: Standard rubber.
Marketing: Alright, that's okay.
Project Manager: Okay, then the push-button, I was just counting them.
Industrial Designer: St {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, I think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use, isn't it?
User Interface: Whoa, it's a little {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well that's bit of a problem,
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: because I re but I really don't understand that, because I can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons, and it wouldn't be possible according to this uh sheet.
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's huge. No. We have {vocalsound} the simplest buttons.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, it's only uh when you use push-buttons, it will cost that much.
Marketing: I don't think so, because it says amount.
Industrial Designer: If you use a scroll-wheel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah. Yeah, it wouldn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the the yellow row is the amount of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fill in the number of components you plan to use in the {gap} and the total cost {disfmarker} I don't know. I
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's the kind of push-buttons. You can have f four kind of push-buttons.
User Interface: Uh, one til nine.
Industrial Designer: Rubber.
User Interface: Is that one or is that nine buttons?
Industrial Designer: You can have uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I count them like this. One two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Because {disfmarker} Oh, this is {disfmarker} oh, this is one, okay. Twelve, okay, then it would be eighteen, because uh, I uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons.
Marketing: To n
Industrial Designer: Different,
Marketing: that's total of four buttons.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: yes.
Project Manager: And plus these two, f uh plus the mute button, and it's will be uh eighteen.
Marketing: I think that {disfmarker} Eighteen. One two three four five, si
Industrial Designer: Why is that so uh expensive.
Project Manager: Yeah, I don't understand. Y I do I don't get the point, because it's would be s relatively so expensive, just these m small buttons.
User Interface: Is it cents, the the the fifty cents a button?
Marketing: Fifty cents for one single stupid button.
User Interface: No way.
Industrial Designer: So, whe when you {disfmarker} so then it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, okay, well well let's make it just one.
Industrial Designer: It's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here, now it's now it's already s
Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Project Manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because else we would really have a problem. It would be impossible to make it {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I can't {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's way {disfmarker}
Marketing: I I I couldn't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button. Really.
Industrial Designer: When you have the same amount of button, you have to put in wi in your carton. Board.
Project Manager: And and less buttons than this isn't possible.
Industrial Designer: And then throw it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is the most simple {disfmarker}
User Interface: No, no no.
Project Manager: yeah, it is possible, but I've never seen one before.
Industrial Designer: But whe
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah, only with uh page up, page down and volume,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, really.
Project Manager: Yeah, without the numbers. That's possible. Yeah, we could skip the numbers.
User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but I d I wouldn't want to own that. Really.
User Interface: That's still four.
Industrial Designer: Uh, it's it's still for little children. They can handle that remote control,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Then uh, teletext would also be im impossible.
Industrial Designer: but but it isn't fo Yes, it's for {disfmarker} it's li uh it's just for a little {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, that's no option, that's no option.
Project Manager: Okay, we'll we'll just {disfmarker} okay. But then still, {vocalsound} when we {disfmarker} there's no room for a docking station or something. Tha w Le let's see th we have uh {disfmarker} oh yeah, button supplements. We'll give the buttons special colour. We'll give them a special form. Uh, I think we should mark the special form thing, because it {disfmarker} this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons, I guess.
User Interface: {vocalsound} A special colour, why a special colour?
Project Manager: Because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings.
User Interface: But wha what s what special?
Project Manager: I think that's the {disfmarker} what they mean by a special colour.
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Otherwise, it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it would be the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't think the special form is really true.
Project Manager: I think all the special colour things have to be marked over here, because that's what we were planning to do, making it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Special form also, it says.
Project Manager: Yeah, special material r also,
Marketing: Is it?
Project Manager: because i has rubber. And the buttons have to be rubber.
Industrial Designer: What is the normal material?
User Interface: Plastic.
Marketing: Yeah, I dunno.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sh yeah.
User Interface: Plastic, I think.
Industrial Designer: Classic?
User Interface: Plastic.
Industrial Designer: Oh, plastic.
Marketing: Plastic.
Project Manager:'Kay, but the problem now is that {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} There's no such thing as a docking station in this list, but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Separately.
User Interface: Se no no no.
Industrial Designer: yes. And and {disfmarker} but we don't have to tell it, but what we can say of {disfmarker} can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I do like the idea, but we {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It uh {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} then the docking station isn't relevant for this project anymore, but we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: No, but you {disfmarker} otherwise you can't retrieve it.
Project Manager: but then you still have to use {disfmarker} we have to find out what chip we u need.
Marketing: Yeah, I really don't get it. I mean if it's a simple chip, then we suddenly got two Euros and thirty cents.
Project Manager: I think we can agree on this. I I think the special colour thing has to be uh marked.'Cause I think we uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, yep.
Project Manager: Yeah, I think that's what what what they uh mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But for two Euros and thirty cents, we uh we don't get a docking station.
Marketing: I think so, too. Oh, I don't know.
Project Manager: But can we find out uh about uh this chips? Because when we don't need a d a docking station, then probably we also have only {disfmarker} we also need a simple chip.
User Interface: And then we can get a docking station. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And maybe then we can do something extra. Oh, n uh oh, still {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: oh, it's gonna get more expensive with {gap}. Two.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have some money left. We can put then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For two Euros.
Project Manager: We can put a scroll-wheel on it or something.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh why?
Project Manager: Yeah, well who knows. Or a little bit of tin titanium.
Marketing: I mean i i if you {disfmarker} if it would cost two Euros, that had a total a total thing, it would be nice too, I mean uh we're not gonna add uh a trip to Hawaii to it.
User Interface: But what what can we do {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, or we can ki do the kinetic cells. That's also maybe an idea.
User Interface: But uh what can we do with the simple chip and what's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip?
Project Manager: Yeah that's what then what he has to find out. Maybe you can uh find it in your email right now, then we know {disfmarker} then we exactly know what it will cost us.
User Interface: If if i
Project Manager: Maybe is that {disfmarker} that's nice to know.
User Interface: Regular chip and {disfmarker} because we don't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip, for example.
Project Manager: Yeah, bu bu but when we {disfmarker} yeah, but when we skip when we um {disfmarker} when we don't use the do we're not gonna make the docking station, then we still {disfmarker} yeah, we need something else maybe to make it kind of special,
Marketing: I like the hand dynamo part.
Project Manager: because that was our our special feature.
Marketing: We can make a plain docking station for two Euros.
User Interface: Yeah. We'll go back uh tomorrow. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, okay, you can also do that, but maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: Wi wi without recharge {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It still is a special remote control cons uh you know, wi its form is special and material.
Marketing: Yeah, but but we can make a docking station for two Euros uh if you don't put the recharge function in it. I mean, it has a shape.
Project Manager: Yeah, but for two Euros, then we have still {disfmarker} maybe we have to use the advanced chip,
Marketing: Of course it has a shape, but i i
Project Manager: then two Euros isn't even possible.
Marketing: Why should that not be possible?
Project Manager: Yeah, then {disfmarker} because then we'd {disfmarker} thirty cents left.
Marketing: No, for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip.
Project Manager: Yeah, but {disfmarker} yeah, I don't know, because maybe d uh yeah, we have to find out with the simple chip.
User Interface: That's the question. If we do i do we need an advanced chip, or is it okay f
Project Manager: Yeah, and w and and we uh need f
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: It isn't in my information, so I don't know it uh either.
Project Manager: and what is this? Sample sensor sample speaker.
Industrial Designer: It isn't in my information, I uh I {disfmarker} I've got a schematic view of the remote control, but nothing about uh advanced chips or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker} You can look at it for s presentation. S technical functions?
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: Uh I've got here in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no, they were uh mine, yeah.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: I will put a I will put a page on it. When my mouse works again.
Project Manager: Oh, oh oh. Hey. Oh.
Industrial Designer: My mouse is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Dead.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Reanimate it.
User Interface: Died.
Industrial Designer: Oh. Ah, I've got it. I will put uh my email on the the network.
Marketing: What the hell are these?
Industrial Designer: It's on it.
Marketing: Oh, whatever.
User Interface: Yeah, it's open.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm. I don't think here {disfmarker} it's in here already.
User Interface: It's circuit board. It's only just basics for for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's nothing about s yeah.
User Interface: At the end circuit there is an infrared LED.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: This isn't helpful.
Project Manager: No. But i in the presentation of yours, there was also something about different components. Which one was it?
User Interface: Components design.
Project Manager: Functional requirements?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, that was my presentation.
User Interface: Components design maybe. N on top.
Industrial Designer: Yes, that was mine.
Project Manager: Ah. Ah yes, it was the second one.
Industrial Designer: But that was my second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it was your second {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's already open.
Project Manager: your first presentation.
Marketing: It's at the bottom.
Project Manager: Sorry?
User Interface: Working design.
Marketing: It's uh at your task bar.
User Interface: Yeah, but it's the the other one.
Marketing: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh, this is n this is not this n
User Interface: Was it working design or components design?
Marketing: Sorry.
Project Manager: that's not the right one. I don't {disfmarker} oh.
Marketing: Okay, sorry.
Project Manager: No, this is the other one. Or maybe something is uh {disfmarker} maybe there's something abo in in these {disfmarker}
User Interface: Chip set.
Industrial Designer: But this is the same uh {disfmarker} This is o only the possibilities.
Project Manager: Here.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. We can use a simple, a regular, or advanced chip.
Marketing: Yeah, nice. I it doesn't say anything.
User Interface: The display requires an advanced chip.
Project Manager: You know that a push-button requires a simple chip, but a scroll-wheel, it it me requires {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah, okay.
Project Manager: Okay, so we only need a simple chip.
User Interface: Requires.
Industrial Designer: With the light.
User Interface: Little lights. Yeah, but that that's just the same as the the LED.
Project Manager: No no, that's just a simple chip. A scroll-wheel {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's not needed.
Project Manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip, and that a display requires an advanced chip. So, we don't need any of them.
Marketing: A display uh is, of course, uh for showing letters. For showing text.
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I don't think that uh just a l a little light {disfmarker}
User Interface: No. I think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay.
Marketing: Yeah, I agree.
Project Manager: And what's the sample sensor slash sample speaker?
Industrial Designer: Maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up, page down.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, I guess so too.
User Interface: Yeah, true. Well, that's not too {disfmarker} what we want.
Marketing: Next channel. No. Well, we might want it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} All in twelve Euros.
Project Manager: Back to the costs.
Industrial Designer: Twelve Euros and fifty cents.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we're gonna use the simple chip.
User Interface: So, simple chip is okay.
Marketing: Great. Delete.
Industrial Designer: And the lights. Where uh are the lights?
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, lights, yeah, there's no
Marketing: Well, there're three, I guess.
User Interface: category. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Nah, there is some money left to be spent.
User Interface: Can we do it wi within two two Euro?
Marketing: I think we can make a docking station. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control? But I mean it isn't {disfmarker} it hasn't got any innovative technology, we aren't gonna apply any uh innovated {disfmarker} innovative te technology anyway, I think. I don't I don't see any possibility to do so, because it would {disfmarker} wouldn't fit our defi design philosophy.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. But it's original.
Project Manager: But what w is there some extra {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, that's true.
Project Manager: maybe I think maybe the kinetic thing is something. Instead of the rechargeable {disfmarker} the rechargeable thing was something to um {disfmarker} know, so y so people wouldn't have to worry about their batteries anymore.
Marketing: M bu
Project Manager: Maybe we {disfmarker} if we put the kinetic thing in it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But but sometimes you put a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, you leave the p yeah, I know, but still I {disfmarker} they will think about that. I mean if you u
Industrial Designer: Kinetics aren't uh nowadays only used in watches and that's because you're always walking.
Project Manager: The uh {disfmarker} it's made for s people {disfmarker} well, the they don't {disfmarker} if it was uh uh r useless technology, they wouldn't put it uh as a possibility.
Industrial Designer: Uh solar cells are useless.
Project Manager: And i it it {disfmarker} th th the the target
Marketing: Or the hand dynamo dynamo {disfmarker}
Project Manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Because I think it {disfmarker} when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source, then it would be this one. Because it's one {disfmarker} it gets thrown around {gap} thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot {disfmarker} Hey that {disfmarker} maybe that's cool {disfmarker} that's a cool thing about it, you know. You don't use batteries.
Marketing: Yeah, but but if we ca
Project Manager: I've never seen it before in a remote control.
User Interface: But then we could make a docking station.
Marketing: I don't know if {disfmarker} Five minutes.
Project Manager: No, we we we can't make a docking station anyway.
Marketing: That's not true.
Project Manager: Yeah, we can als or uh also m we we can make one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Wow, w why no li
Marketing: We can make a docking station for two thirty.
Project Manager: we can still make {disfmarker}
User Interface: Look at now, we got two
Industrial Designer: Fo {vocalsound} for a docking station.
Marketing: Two thirty.
User Interface: two thirty left. Ca can't we make a docking station of that?
Marketing: We can make a docking station. Sure.
Industrial Designer: With a cable, with uh buttons on it, with retrieval uh device in it.
Marketing: Sure.
User Interface: I don't know.
Marketing: The power device is is i i is very cheap.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's just a regular uh power cable and whatever.
Project Manager: Yeah, but be serious, then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wi with a button to
User Interface: Well, we we uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: wi with a button to retrieve it, so it will beep.
Marketing: So.
Industrial Designer: Uh, so it's uh wireless technology.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we uh we don't inc we haven't looked at the {disfmarker} these costs of the speaker and other stuff. I don't think it's realistic for you to do so.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well then it's a useless project.
Industrial Designer: Look at the case,
Project Manager: Oh, because we {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: the case the case of of uh of uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, then we don't have any innovation things.
Project Manager: We {disfmarker} well look at all the special stuff we have. Colour a the colours are special, the form is special. It {disfmarker} th this is whole concept. Uh maybe it {disfmarker} with the kinetic thing, I think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Can't we uh {disfmarker} Can't we say fifteen Euros?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, no.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, sta yeah {gap} I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, then we have to sell it for thirty Euros.
Marketing: No.
User Interface: No, we only make less profit of it.
Industrial Designer: It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: You can sell for twenty seven and a half. Then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs.
User Interface: {vocalsound} No.
Project Manager: Yeah, I don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a {disfmarker} Uh uh I I I I still fee I also feel this concept of making it kinetic, because of the {disfmarker} you know, it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control.
Marketing: I don't think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can uh can do it both. Maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote. Battery and kinetic.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No, that wouldn't n no.
Marketing: Thirteen twenty.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, and it is also not a good {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker} you have to really do it only kinetic, you don't want it to think about batteries anymore.
Marketing: And I think only {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, but when it's {disfmarker} then when it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but only kinetic, then you gotta {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No no.
Industrial Designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it's when it's empty.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's great.
Marketing: You you gotta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour, really.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no no. No no, this is very sophisticated technology technology.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: When you use it {disfmarker} your remote like once a day, or maybe even less i i it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You asked for three d No, that's n that's not true. Uh, a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} We can make it {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} no. Becau be but a remote control gets {disfmarker} why do they state that this technology can be used if it
Industrial Designer: Yes, solar cells are also stated.
Project Manager: Yeah, m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells.
Industrial Designer: Why don't we use solar cells then?
Project Manager: Because I think the d whole dynamic part, do you know, appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy, you know, with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing, and y when you move it around a lot, then people find the idea funny that when I move my remote control around and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's true.
Marketing: Yeah, it's funny for a week. I guess something like that, where you have to move it around very frequently, is demotivating.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but you don't have to. Trust me. The idea of this technology is that you don't think about it, it just happens.
Marketing: No, I I don't move my uh my remote control very much, seriously.
Project Manager: Okay, then we d Okay, well y we don't have to do it, but what {disfmarker} that would just have a lack of key features, you know.
Industrial Designer: Oui.
Project Manager: You m have to put something on your box. You have to make people buy it and uh {disfmarker} We can really can do the docking thing, uh it's not {disfmarker} yeah, uh we can do it, but it's would be a easy way out.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You can do it for fifty cents. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well, we've got more than fifty Cents.
Project Manager: Okay, but we have to grou to agree upon something,
Industrial Designer: The c {vocalsound} The case the case alone is is is uh
Project Manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so.
Industrial Designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one Euro. Then we have one Euro thirty for the whole docking station.
Project Manager: No no, it's not possible. Okay, w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it's {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} then then our concept is ready.
User Interface: Cheap remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah, we make some extra profit of it.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} No, we won't, but that's um something else.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It w it won't tell, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But now {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, this not gonna sell. No.
Project Manager: Huh, any ideas?
Marketing: Of course not.
User Interface: No, uh, n no
Industrial Designer: Great {gap}. It's great.
User Interface: Yeah, we just have to go all what we did today again. You have to do it over.
Industrial Designer: Our remote control.
Marketing: We come back tomorrow, okay?
Project Manager: No no uh there's still there's still someth concept and something special left.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {gap} the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Seventy Euros.
Project Manager: I mean we're gonna {disfmarker} it's gonna excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel.
User Interface: No, but {disfmarker} no.
Project Manager: That's what it's {disfmarker} makes it special. Yeah, and I would li I would have liked a kinetic part as well, to give it some just to give it some extra special feature, and uh I know it will work, but uh it's it's an {disfmarker} They're they're not putting technologies on this {gap}, but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen.
Industrial Designer: Why not a hand dynamo then?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, well we leave it like this. Then it's c then we're {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We can't do anything else. Warning, finish meeting now.
Industrial Designer: We're done.
Project Manager: Okay, project e uh
Industrial Designer: Is this it?
Project Manager: well, we were gonna what look {disfmarker} take a look at the last sheet.
Marketing: Yeah, {vocalsound} sure.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: No, we can't.
Project Manager: Yeah, we have to {disfmarker} Yeah, it's {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yes, yes. Celebration. I don't see why, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Where's the champagne?
Marketing: I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire, to be honest.
User Interface: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: I don't uh hear a bell.
Marketing: No, not yet.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We can do it here then.
Marketing: Alright, I'll see you guys in a minute.
Industrial Designer: Bye.
User Interface: Can we {disfmarker} can't we do it here?
Marketing: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't I don't think so.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh-huh. Just fill that one in.
User Interface: Yeah, we're doing now. But it's {gap}. Oh, okay.
Project Manager: Uh, I don't know.
User Interface: Nice. | The team agreed that the prototype had a moderate appearance and it really depended on the individual taste of each customer. Some might find the device really fancy. However, the function that enabled the user to design for its own front look stood out since this could add value to users'favour towards personalities. The team also came to an agreement that the remote control's relevant buttons were prominently visible and relevant to each other, making the device easy to use. There was also a speaker incorporated into the device, solving the problem that sometimes it was out of sight. Meanwhile, the innovation of this device which was without a LCD display or any other technology required functions was not that satisfactory. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Okay, welcome to the detailed design meeting. Again, I'm gonna take minutes. Oh, we're gonna have a prototype presentation first.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh, who's gonna give the prototype presentation? You two guys? Okay. Go ahead.
Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} coffee.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'Kay, we've made a prototype. Um, we've got uh {vocalsound} uh our aspects from the last meeting. Uh, especially we looked at the form, material and the colour. Um, we've uh drawn here the p prototype. The logo is uh is uh {vocalsound} is pretty uh {vocalsound} obvious to see on the on the remote control,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher. Um, {vocalsound} our interface elements, there are shown in the in the drawing. Maybe you can uh point them uh {disfmarker} The functions.
User Interface: Uh, well the uh {disfmarker} all the functions are discussed uh {disfmarker} I think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious. Uh, it's a little bit. Uh, power button. Uh then the the the nine uh channels.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh the volume uh uh at the side, and the other side is the programmes. And then we had uh just uh two buttons, we place them in the middle, uh the menu, and for the teletext
Project Manager: Oh no, the the the mute button misses now.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I thought that was th
Marketing: Alright, I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do y do you {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh, the mute button.
Project Manager: did we want to have a m mute button?
Industrial Designer: But uh that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's uh here then, in the middle.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Huh.
Marketing: Alright, and uh you gotta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button.
Industrial Designer: Yes, um
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well, yeah mo uh mo
Industrial Designer: we've disc
User Interface: Yeah, well most of them are right-handed.
Industrial Designer: Most of the users
Marketing: Yeah, but you you gotta make it clear on the {disfmarker} on {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah well, I don't have time in uh anymore on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, y there there will be a p a little a little P_ on that and a little uh {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, and a and a triangle on that.
User Interface: Oh yeah, just progr programme above, I think.
Marketing: Yes. Next to that I kinda miss a zero actually.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wait, there's {disfmarker} was one thing I wanted to ask.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, there are different ways for remote controls to uh {vocalsound} do uh like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh d I call it teens and twenties. Uh, y th th th the two numbers.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: All n no, that's um {vocalsound} kinda dependent on the television.
User Interface: Yeah, true, yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's a television. Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, but do we have {disfmarker} do we need extra buttons,
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} for example some uh some have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I think so.
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, yes, you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it, uh th with the one and a double uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, I think you should add {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Zero?
Marketing: A cross, or whatever. Yeah, line.
Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't you don't actually need them,
User Interface: May maybe here?
Industrial Designer: yes.
Project Manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first, then you have a couple of seconds {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. And then a second.
Marketing: No, that's dependent on the television.
Project Manager: No, I don't think so.
Industrial Designer: Yes, you have televisions, then you have to, you know, you have to uh press {disfmarker}
Marketing: I do know so.
User Interface: Is it depending on television?
Project Manager: Nah, I don't think so really,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because you have a {disfmarker} I know some remote controls that don't have these buttons, but you still can, know, obviously you can still select the twenty {disfmarker} uh a number in the twenty or in the ten.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but but a lot {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes, but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they come with the television. Or actually, the other way around.
Project Manager: No, I think {disfmarker} uh I really think it's n
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because you can {disfmarker} when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash, it's the same thing as when you just push the one,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but
Marketing: Yeah, well {disfmarker} but su {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: some televisions don't accept uh that that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, because that's i it's for television. It's exact the same thing.
Industrial Designer: No, no, but s
Marketing: No no no. So some television respond differently. Look, if uh i i
Project Manager: No, listen listen. When you push the button, the remote control gives a signal. I in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it.
Marketing: Yes. Yes, that's true.
Project Manager: The one with dash, that signal gi and when y whe when you don't push another button on the remote control within five seconds, then the remote control gives a signal for channel one.
User Interface: Yeah. True.
Marketing: No {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it works that way, really.
Marketing: No, it it it works uh if you haven't got uh a special button for it, uh if you push a one, then on your television there will appear a one and a a line, which is an empty space.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but it's exact the same {gap} that w would appear when you put a separate button {disfmarker} push a separate button.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button, uh then you go to a a next level, you can push two buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't underst uh you don't understand my point.
Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound} True.
Project Manager: I think it's exact the same thing when y
Industrial Designer: You want {disfmarker} Yes, but some television don't support it.
Project Manager: No, but then they would a would also support that button, because it's the same thing.
User Interface: But the ex
Project Manager: Listen, with {disfmarker} that that's that special but button {gap} you're talking about, eh? That's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv T_V_ that they have to put a one in {disfmarker} on your screen and a dash, which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it. When you don't have that separate button, and you push y one, it's exactly the same thing. Do y you {disfmarker} the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No,
Marketing: No, s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c
Industrial Designer: a remote can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes,
Project Manager: But you give the input.
Industrial Designer: so they need {disfmarker} no, they need {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You push the one. That's the same thing as the button with the one and it {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, that's not true.
Project Manager: yes it it is.
Marketing: It's simply not true. It's simply not true.
Project Manager: Think about it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No,
User Interface: You uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash, and then wait uh two uh seconds or something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one.
Marketing: No, remote control doesn't give signal after five seconds. Remote control is a stupid thing. If you push a button, it sends it immediately to to the television.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, but I m uh but it's {disfmarker} I I know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied, only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash, but when you use a bu a n remote control that doesn't sport these buttons, it still works.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But okay, we we'll impl
Marketing: No, definitely not. Definitely not.
User Interface: We'll discuss them in the usability lab.
Project Manager: No, we'll apply them then for now.
User Interface: Uh eva evaluation.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know uh I don't know if if it's it's necessary.
Project Manager: Yeah, app just apply them next to the zero, the one and the two.
User Interface: Yeah?
Project Manager: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, for now, if we don't know for sure whether {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: And the button for the SCART uh audio video uh external input.
Marketing: Yes.
User Interface: Ach.
Project Manager: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, you can access that uh via zero, and then minus, I guess.
Project Manager: okay. {vocalsound} What I said about uh the remote control sending another signal, that that might not be true,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but I still think i it it {disfmarker} all T_V_s in some ways support it, I don't know. I think it's more c is m maybe we don't {disfmarker} uh we both don't really understand how it i how it really works,
Industrial Designer: No, no.
Project Manager: but I think there's more to in than wha than what you just said.
Industrial Designer: Uh, remote control sends one signal at one button uh press.
Project Manager: I do think that uh m T_V_s support mur multiple kind of remote controls. M
Industrial Designer: Uh, some {disfmarker} N some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Th won't work wi with uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals.
Project Manager: to have that special button.
Industrial Designer: When you uh press one button, you give one signal. And the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, well we'll see.
Marketing: Yep.
Industrial Designer: When you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals, it could work, but {disfmarker} Just a basic idea of of of the most uh {disfmarker} most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote.
Marketing: Okay. I kinda miss the docking station.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. It's here on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah, uh there's nothing {disfmarker} I think it's pretty basic,
Industrial Designer: We came uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: the the {disfmarker} there's no fu
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: there's one there's one button,
Marketing: No nothing really trendy about it.
User Interface: that's wha there's there's there's one function and that's n the one button when you want to find it.
Industrial Designer: But maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell,
Marketing: The button.
Industrial Designer: because Real {vocalsound} Real Reaction sells more products than only remote controls. So maybe we can uh use the docking station, for example, uh M_P_ three players or or uh
Marketing: Yep.
Industrial Designer: uh hearing devices.
Marketing: I think that's very difficult, because of different shapes of uh uh devices.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but when you put that same volt voltages on it, you can put uh {disfmarker} when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it, when it's o the same as the other products, you can put it all on the same uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, of course. Mm-hmm. Well it it got it {disfmarker} it has got to fit into the shape, of course.
Industrial Designer: Yes, but we can make {disfmarker}
Marketing: The technology and the voltage can be the same. That's uh that's true. But uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this, then they all fit.
Industrial Designer: No, we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same.
Marketing: Yeah, that's true, but uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: When when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out, we can place all on top of it. Just have to be big enough for the biggest {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes, but uh I I g Shouldn't it fall then? It {disfmarker} isn't going to fall down? {vocalsound} That's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, when you make it large enough no it it will not.
Marketing: yeah, I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But then it's a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, but if if {disfmarker} like this, I'll I'll point it out, if you got uh a a a base a base like this,
Industrial Designer: But it's just an idea.
Marketing: I won't draw it really. If you got a base which is uh as big as this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But it's flat it's flat as as this, so we can p make all the products as flat as this.
User Interface: You can. But i i i it's backwards.
Marketing: Yeah sure, but if you got if you got a tiny player, it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes, but when you make uh uh a bit of big {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it's it's backwards. It's leaning. It's leaning backwards, I think, in the in the docking station.
Marketing: Yeah. Uh, wha what you could do if you uh {disfmarker} from the bottom {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's text. {vocalsound}
Marketing: oh, right, help.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, you could make like a hole in it, you know, of uh {disfmarker} in in the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, little holer {disfmarker} littler {disfmarker} Uh, little products go deeper in it.
Marketing: Yeah. That i that is possible, yep.
Project Manager: Well let's ha let's talk about the docking station later, because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway, because we have some uh cost issues {vocalsound} still to come.
Marketing: Yeah, sure, you're right.
Industrial Designer: Yes. And uh uh
Marketing: Oh.
Project Manager: But we have to look n I don't know.
Industrial Designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control, because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area.
Marketing: I don't like the colours. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Then your uh left thumb of uh {disfmarker} your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button, which is the most common used uh function, and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So it's it's it's really good design.
Marketing: Yeah. Alright.
Project Manager: Yes. That's it?
Industrial Designer: Yes, uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber, and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material, a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it.
Marketing: The light. Okay. And other lights?
Project Manager: I think added lights are gonna be a problem too.
Industrial Designer: Yes, we can make also n neon lights on it, or or the buttons that can make uh light on it.
Marketing: No, o on the on the front. Yeah, okay. Maybe the uh the logo.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {gap} lights?
Industrial Designer: But, it will also uh uh use batteries,
Marketing: Yeah, why not?
Industrial Designer: and do we want to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Of course.
Project Manager: Okay. For now, uh this is uh is good enough.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah, what was uh on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, but in the {disfmarker} oh yeah, the colour, because we're gonna use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber, isn't it? Then we're gonna do the buttons in the i are we're gonna have rubber buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: And they're be a {disfmarker} {gap} they'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Uh, in the same colour as the side.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, I think I think that'll be good.
Project Manager: Okay. And I think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic, and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights,
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: so it will uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, we'll talk about the lights later.'Cause I also don yeah,
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: it's depends on the costs and such. But uh, and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: but may I dunno if that's important, but we'll talk about that later. Okay, for now this is this is okay.
Marketing: We will.
Project Manager: Um, the next p y you gonna give a presentation too? Uh, I have to see the agenda.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: Well, uh yeah, I I'm gonna do something right there, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Detail design.
Marketing: We gotta do that on the right {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the most {disfmarker} right-most screen, because the leftmost {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Evaluation criteria.
Marketing: Yep, that's me.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Alright. I will be needing that image, so leave it please. Um {disfmarker} Go away. Right, we're gonna evaluate that design according to a few points. {vocalsound} Um, we g the four of us are going to do that um together.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I wanna have a colour over here, come on. Right, the remote {vocalsound} is not ugly, a bit weird sentence, but the positive things has to be on the left, so I {vocalsound} said not ugly instead of ugly.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, what would you say, we we gotta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design, and please forget the drawing skills of these guys.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote control is not ugly. How do you feel?
Project Manager: Yeah, I think four maybe would be appropriate, because it's {disfmarker} Yeah, maybe it really depends on taste. Uh, I mean it's kind of {gap}, our design. It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly, you know, o other people find it really cool.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Background colour.
Project Manager: I don't know or uh I don't know how you {disfmarker} Casting. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think I think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side, because you can uh make it in your own {disfmarker}
Marketing: How do you guys feel? The different designs.
Industrial Designer: yes, you can make it in your own uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: more to your own personality or or house style.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we d we didn't {disfmarker} we're we're not planning to use fronts, I believe.
Marketing: No, not not fronts, but different designs.
Project Manager: With a colour a co a colours. Oh, okay.
User Interface: No, not fronts. Different designs. Different colours maybe, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: And that's still uh uh, yeah, is is uh is a little personal touch, I guess.
Project Manager: Okay, but {disfmarker} Oh, maybe we should do three or something that w you know, our {disfmarker}
Marketing: What? Yeah, wha wha what would you uh guys uh think? Personally.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Or forty. {vocalsound}
User Interface: We can make it a one.
Marketing: Personally. Yes, but what is it?
Industrial Designer: I think two or three.
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Guido?
User Interface: I agree.
Marketing: Two or three.
User Interface: Um, I uh I go for the positive. So I go for two.
Marketing: I was {disfmarker} I was thinking about three, so I guess
Project Manager: Uh, I was thinking about four, so I think three is uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay, three.
Marketing: three is uh a bit uh {disfmarker} oh, what am I doing? I'll mark it. The remote control's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah well, let that {disfmarker} let's make that a one. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Two. One. One.
Marketing: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Antek, you agree?
User Interface: Okay yeah, I'll I'll agree.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: That's one thing for sure.
Marketing: Yeah. You're not Antek.
User Interface: I'm the I'm the usability, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I totally agree. The remote control the remote control's relevant buttons are prominently visible.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, two or a one, I guess.
User Interface: The {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's something we really put work into.
Marketing: Yeah, I {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's all about the buttons.
Marketing: I would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant. {vocalsound} And our {disfmarker} oh yeah, it's a b yeah. Yeah? Alright. That's a one? You agree?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: The remote control hasn't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons. I think we totally succeeded there.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well maybe a two, because of the menu button or something.
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, well menu {disfmarker} Yeah, maybe.
Marketing: Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Project Manager: And telete
Industrial Designer: Also, the the the buttons of the one, the two, the the digits,
Project Manager: Yeah, we don't know if the {disfmarker} uh they're necessary.
Industrial Designer: o they're used uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} the the {disfmarker} yeah, m well, you d you've got a point.
Project Manager: I think a two.
User Interface: Yeah, true. Yeah, I agree.
Industrial Designer: Can {disfmarker} yes, three, two.
Project Manager: Came a long way, but not {disfmarker} we didn't not uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two or three?
User Interface: Mm two.
Industrial Designer: But you can't make a remote control without them,
Marketing: Two? Antek.
User Interface: Because we got {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nay that that that's true, that's true. They're definitely needed.
Project Manager: No, w w it can also always be more simplistic, but two is {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} we put it on a two?
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: The remote control has got a really trendy look.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. A one.
Project Manager: Yeah, uh a t I think a two.
Marketing: Maarten.
User Interface: Well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah, y i it's hard to say from this picture.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} we've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Ever, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Guido.
Project Manager: But I do think it's more {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, I will I will make it a three, because uh {disfmarker} yeah. I I th
Project Manager: But I do think that it's more trendy than beautiful.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yeah, uh I agree. I agree.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So so I think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. True, yeah.
Marketing: I was planning to give it a two, uh where I give the not ugly uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A th a three.
Marketing: oh, yeah, that's true. You agree on the two?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I i uh when you compare to the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Great. Remote control hasn't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons.
Project Manager: Uh uh what's the difference with {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, I copied that one. Well, uh forget that.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Go away. Remote control has got innovative technology implanted.
User Interface: No. We're not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: well, maybe the the the {disfmarker} on the side.
Industrial Designer: No, not L_C_D_, so.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we uh {disfmarker} {gap} you mean the rubber stuff?
Marketing: Yeah, and the light.
Project Manager: Yeah, but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh.
User Interface: And the light maybe.
Industrial Designer: But that that's not innovative.
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I don't u also it's also really not innovative,
Industrial Designer: Lights lights are {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well, I g
Project Manager: it's more {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's not {disfmarker} seven?
Project Manager: No, six. Or seven maybe, {vocalsound} yeah.
User Interface: Well, six. No, six.
Project Manager: Or six.
Industrial Designer: Six.
Marketing: Why uh why not a seven?
User Interface: Six.
Project Manager: Yeah, mine is seven.
Industrial Designer: Because we've tried to make it a little bit innovative,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but it but it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh it's uh depends on the on the maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: How?
Industrial Designer: With the lights it {disfmarker} it's it's kind of future {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, I think I think actually it's a seven maybe, but there's nothing innovative about it.
Marketing: Yeah, you think the lights are innovative? Well, it's n true. Uh, I agree,
Industrial Designer: But still you can retrieve it when it's when it's gone, with the {disfmarker} with {disfmarker}
Marketing: m but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Innovative in generally or just f original for {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'll {disfmarker} Yeah, you you didn't draw the docking station. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} The docking station is a is a little bit innovative.
Project Manager: N no no,
Marketing: Yeah, it it's {disfmarker} I think I think with its {disfmarker}
Project Manager: t {gap}.
User Interface: A docking station is innova
Project Manager: Yeah, I mean the dock station, but but uh, I think the the docking station, {vocalsound} it's gonna be a {gap} kind of a problem.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's a part of the remote.
Marketing: I think more m
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And with the speaker on the {disfmarker} there's also a speaker.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh that {disfmarker} that's n
Project Manager: Well, let's leave it open for uh for us later to see what, because we have to reevaluate anyway. Well I i {gap} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: No?
Marketing: No uh, well, the agenda says evaluate now, so I think we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, for now it's a six or a seven uh, sev
Marketing: It's it's a six.
Project Manager: six maybe,
User Interface: Six.
Project Manager: because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But the retrieval or the {disfmarker}
Marketing: That m f
Project Manager: Yeah, but I don't I don't know if it's very {vocalsound} inno yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, for the retrieval function. Yeah. I think that's very innovative for a remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah, v
Industrial Designer: Yes, {gap} how would you innovate a remote control more?
Project Manager: Yeah, more through uh like function T_V_ functionalities and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: To put it on your head.
Project Manager: no no, you know what I mean.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You have {disfmarker} {gap} must be innovative technology for remote controls, but more in how you control stuff, not in how you find your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah sure, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I d I definitely don't think it's a five,
Project Manager: that's that's {disfmarker} think about it la later on
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Remote control is easy to use.
Project Manager: Yeah, as a a one or a two ma uh at least.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes.
User Interface: Yeah, a two.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: I think a two.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's good.
Marketing: Yeah?
User Interface: More two.
Marketing: Come on. The remote control hasn't got uh {disfmarker} {gap}.
Project Manager: No, I would have seen {vocalsound} that one before. Oh, you skipped one uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I've just filled {disfmarker} uh
Project Manager: Uh, here.
Marketing: Go away.
Industrial Designer: You like the buttons. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I found twelve questions so much, but it still is ten.
Project Manager: Remote control will be bought by {disfmarker}
Marketing: It will be bought by people under the age of forty.
Project Manager: Yeah. Definitely.
User Interface: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: In in {disfmarker} and comparing with uh people of th of the age above?
Marketing: No no no. No, just if they if they buy it.
Project Manager: Uh, just in general. Yeah, a two.
Industrial Designer: We don't know. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, but I think I think two.
Marketing: Yeah, what do you think?
User Interface: Yeah, I think two, yeah. I agree. Two.
Marketing: Antek?
Industrial Designer: Yes, two, but only in c when you compare it with with elderly.
Project Manager: Uh, that is not the question. It's just w it will be bought by people under forty.
Marketing: No, that's no comparison.
Project Manager: Yeah, you can {disfmarker} yeah, you can be very picky about it.
Marketing: And I don't mean two people.
Industrial Designer: This is just guessing.
Project Manager: Ah yeah, just make it {disfmarker} we'll make it a two.
Industrial Designer: Make it a two.
Marketing: W w
Industrial Designer: When it succeeds, uh it can get a two, mu
Marketing: Right, the rem The remote control has recognisable corporate image, colour, logo or slogan.
Project Manager: Oh no. Yeah. Yeah, you have make an
User Interface: We don't have the slogan though.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} slogan is quite obvious {gap}.
Marketing: Oh, the slogan.
Project Manager: Oh the {disfmarker} oh sorry, no, not not the slogan.
Marketing: Can we see the slogan?
Project Manager: Yeah, you can put that on the side if {vocalsound} if we would like to.
User Interface: The logo.
Industrial Designer: A logo.
User Interface: Underneath it or something.
Industrial Designer: Yes, uh encrypted uh with {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, and I will I th still think it's gonna be a two or a three.
Marketing: Are we gonna do that?
User Interface: {vocalsound} A three. Three.
Project Manager: Maybe a three this time.
User Interface: Yeah, a three.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Three? I agree. Because of the slogan {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Remote control's got a basic design intended uh for novice users.
Project Manager: Uh, it's a one or a two.
User Interface: Yeah, two.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, make it a two.
User Interface: Two.
Marketing: Two? Two. Alright. We gotta add up the scores now to see our total average. Four, five, seven, nine. Forget that. Fifteen, seventeen, twenty one, twenty four, twenty six. Twenty six. It's a two point six.
Project Manager: It's not that bad.
Marketing: Alright, we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, and that's mostly the inno
Marketing: yeah.
Project Manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology, we would score two,
Marketing: Yeah. True.
Project Manager: which is uh quite a great score. Okay. Uh, this is {disfmarker} was uh the evaluation?
Marketing: {vocalsound} This was my evaluation. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because I I still think that the most important part of this meeting still has {disfmarker}
Marketing: We did a pretty nice job until now.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Um, is this your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Is there something after this uh meeting? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Whatever. Well, I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire.
User Interface: No. Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Still opened or uh {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, finance. Because um
User Interface: {vocalsound} Shoot.
Project Manager: I received uh a spreadsheet.
Marketing: A five. A five.
Project Manager: Yeah, but I uh actually don't need this presentation, I guess. Oh.
Marketing: Doesn't matter.
Project Manager: I'm gonna open the spreadsheet and we're gonna work this out together, because I didn't really fin uh I have a {gap}.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Didn't really finish it. Well, we uh {disfmarker} We'll see. We'll stumble upon some problems.
Marketing: We probably will.
Project Manager: {gap} I probably have already opened it here. {gap} try it again. First of all, the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list. But let's let's st start with beginning. We include one battery. I i uh I'll explain its {disfmarker} Uh, the the components are listed over here. Uh, price is given. We um {disfmarker} yeah,
Marketing: The amount, yeah.
Project Manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component, how much we need of them. And then uh, we'll uh calcula Don't watch the number yet. I don't know if it's filled in properly. Okay, we need one battery. One battery. I think one battery is enough.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: We don't need kinetic, solar cells, hand dynamo. A s okay, this this is a p first problem. Uh, I think we should know how many simple chips, regular chips {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh it's it's one one chip, but but you have to choose one from it.
Project Manager: Okay. But {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The simple chip is e enough I I think, but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval, it can be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Where did we find this information? Was it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I haven't got an idea on on which we need to use, really.
Project Manager: I think it was uh your job in the first uh meet Uh, f your first presentation to make this clear, but then you had some t time problems.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No, uh I {disfmarker} Yes, my my my uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The the email I got said uh simple chip, but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device, it will uh cost a a bit more, like I think the advanced chip {disfmarker} maybe.
Marketing: Yeah. And how do you know? I mean, you got that email. Did it point out what to use them for?
Industrial Designer: Bec No, the {disfmarker} they didn't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it.
Project Manager: Maybe you can uh look it up right now. Okay, but {disfmarker} okay. When we don't {disfmarker} when we leave the uh retriever and such aside, what {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Then it's a simple chip.
Project Manager: then it would be a simple chip. And with the retriever, it would be an advanced chip.
Industrial Designer: Yes, I I I s I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright, well, point out the advanced chip for now, I guess.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: That will be enough for future uh recommendations.
Project Manager: Yeah, but it will it will it will be {disfmarker} cause a lot of problems. {vocalsound} The sample sensor {disfmarker} sample speaker. What is it m is that the speaker we were t I don't know what it is.
Industrial Designer: I don't know it uh either.
Marketing: I don't know.
Project Manager: Okay, we went for the double-curved case
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: made out of plastic and rubber. And with a special colour. I guess that's what we were {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, special colour. {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah, I don't know about the special colour, but I think w uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise, you get uh a standard uh plastic colour.
User Interface: I don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know if it's very special.
Project Manager: Yeah, I think we uh we have special colours.
User Interface: Mm okay.
Industrial Designer: Standard rubber.
Marketing: Alright, that's okay.
Project Manager: Okay, then the push-button, I was just counting them.
Industrial Designer: St {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, I think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use, isn't it?
User Interface: Whoa, it's a little {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well that's bit of a problem,
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: because I re but I really don't understand that, because I can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons, and it wouldn't be possible according to this uh sheet.
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's huge. No. We have {vocalsound} the simplest buttons.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No, it's only uh when you use push-buttons, it will cost that much.
Marketing: I don't think so, because it says amount.
Industrial Designer: If you use a scroll-wheel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah. Yeah, it wouldn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the the yellow row is the amount of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fill in the number of components you plan to use in the {gap} and the total cost {disfmarker} I don't know. I
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's the kind of push-buttons. You can have f four kind of push-buttons.
User Interface: Uh, one til nine.
Industrial Designer: Rubber.
User Interface: Is that one or is that nine buttons?
Industrial Designer: You can have uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I count them like this. One two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Because {disfmarker} Oh, this is {disfmarker} oh, this is one, okay. Twelve, okay, then it would be eighteen, because uh, I uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons.
Marketing: To n
Industrial Designer: Different,
Marketing: that's total of four buttons.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: yes.
Project Manager: And plus these two, f uh plus the mute button, and it's will be uh eighteen.
Marketing: I think that {disfmarker} Eighteen. One two three four five, si
Industrial Designer: Why is that so uh expensive.
Project Manager: Yeah, I don't understand. Y I do I don't get the point, because it's would be s relatively so expensive, just these m small buttons.
User Interface: Is it cents, the the the fifty cents a button?
Marketing: Fifty cents for one single stupid button.
User Interface: No way.
Industrial Designer: So, whe when you {disfmarker} so then it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, okay, well well let's make it just one.
Industrial Designer: It's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here, now it's now it's already s
Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Project Manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because else we would really have a problem. It would be impossible to make it {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I can't {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's way {disfmarker}
Marketing: I I I couldn't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button. Really.
Industrial Designer: When you have the same amount of button, you have to put in wi in your carton. Board.
Project Manager: And and less buttons than this isn't possible.
Industrial Designer: And then throw it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is the most simple {disfmarker}
User Interface: No, no no.
Project Manager: yeah, it is possible, but I've never seen one before.
Industrial Designer: But whe
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah, only with uh page up, page down and volume,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, really.
Project Manager: Yeah, without the numbers. That's possible. Yeah, we could skip the numbers.
User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but I d I wouldn't want to own that. Really.
User Interface: That's still four.
Industrial Designer: Uh, it's it's still for little children. They can handle that remote control,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Then uh, teletext would also be im impossible.
Industrial Designer: but but it isn't fo Yes, it's for {disfmarker} it's li uh it's just for a little {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, that's no option, that's no option.
Project Manager: Okay, we'll we'll just {disfmarker} okay. But then still, {vocalsound} when we {disfmarker} there's no room for a docking station or something. Tha w Le let's see th we have uh {disfmarker} oh yeah, button supplements. We'll give the buttons special colour. We'll give them a special form. Uh, I think we should mark the special form thing, because it {disfmarker} this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons, I guess.
User Interface: {vocalsound} A special colour, why a special colour?
Project Manager: Because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings.
User Interface: But wha what s what special?
Project Manager: I think that's the {disfmarker} what they mean by a special colour.
User Interface: Okay, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Otherwise, it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it would be the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't think the special form is really true.
Project Manager: I think all the special colour things have to be marked over here, because that's what we were planning to do, making it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Special form also, it says.
Project Manager: Yeah, special material r also,
Marketing: Is it?
Project Manager: because i has rubber. And the buttons have to be rubber.
Industrial Designer: What is the normal material?
User Interface: Plastic.
Marketing: Yeah, I dunno.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sh yeah.
User Interface: Plastic, I think.
Industrial Designer: Classic?
User Interface: Plastic.
Industrial Designer: Oh, plastic.
Marketing: Plastic.
Project Manager:'Kay, but the problem now is that {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} There's no such thing as a docking station in this list, but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Separately.
User Interface: Se no no no.
Industrial Designer: yes. And and {disfmarker} but we don't have to tell it, but what we can say of {disfmarker} can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I do like the idea, but we {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It uh {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} then the docking station isn't relevant for this project anymore, but we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: No, but you {disfmarker} otherwise you can't retrieve it.
Project Manager: but then you still have to use {disfmarker} we have to find out what chip we u need.
Marketing: Yeah, I really don't get it. I mean if it's a simple chip, then we suddenly got two Euros and thirty cents.
Project Manager: I think we can agree on this. I I think the special colour thing has to be uh marked.'Cause I think we uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, yep.
Project Manager: Yeah, I think that's what what what they uh mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But for two Euros and thirty cents, we uh we don't get a docking station.
Marketing: I think so, too. Oh, I don't know.
Project Manager: But can we find out uh about uh this chips? Because when we don't need a d a docking station, then probably we also have only {disfmarker} we also need a simple chip.
User Interface: And then we can get a docking station. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And maybe then we can do something extra. Oh, n uh oh, still {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: oh, it's gonna get more expensive with {gap}. Two.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have some money left. We can put then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For two Euros.
Project Manager: We can put a scroll-wheel on it or something.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh why?
Project Manager: Yeah, well who knows. Or a little bit of tin titanium.
Marketing: I mean i i if you {disfmarker} if it would cost two Euros, that had a total a total thing, it would be nice too, I mean uh we're not gonna add uh a trip to Hawaii to it.
User Interface: But what what can we do {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, or we can ki do the kinetic cells. That's also maybe an idea.
User Interface: But uh what can we do with the simple chip and what's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip?
Project Manager: Yeah that's what then what he has to find out. Maybe you can uh find it in your email right now, then we know {disfmarker} then we exactly know what it will cost us.
User Interface: If if i
Project Manager: Maybe is that {disfmarker} that's nice to know.
User Interface: Regular chip and {disfmarker} because we don't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip, for example.
Project Manager: Yeah, bu bu but when we {disfmarker} yeah, but when we skip when we um {disfmarker} when we don't use the do we're not gonna make the docking station, then we still {disfmarker} yeah, we need something else maybe to make it kind of special,
Marketing: I like the hand dynamo part.
Project Manager: because that was our our special feature.
Marketing: We can make a plain docking station for two Euros.
User Interface: Yeah. We'll go back uh tomorrow. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, okay, you can also do that, but maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: Wi wi without recharge {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It still is a special remote control cons uh you know, wi its form is special and material.
Marketing: Yeah, but but we can make a docking station for two Euros uh if you don't put the recharge function in it. I mean, it has a shape.
Project Manager: Yeah, but for two Euros, then we have still {disfmarker} maybe we have to use the advanced chip,
Marketing: Of course it has a shape, but i i
Project Manager: then two Euros isn't even possible.
Marketing: Why should that not be possible?
Project Manager: Yeah, then {disfmarker} because then we'd {disfmarker} thirty cents left.
Marketing: No, for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip.
Project Manager: Yeah, but {disfmarker} yeah, I don't know, because maybe d uh yeah, we have to find out with the simple chip.
User Interface: That's the question. If we do i do we need an advanced chip, or is it okay f
Project Manager: Yeah, and w and and we uh need f
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: It isn't in my information, so I don't know it uh either.
Project Manager: and what is this? Sample sensor sample speaker.
Industrial Designer: It isn't in my information, I uh I {disfmarker} I've got a schematic view of the remote control, but nothing about uh advanced chips or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker} You can look at it for s presentation. S technical functions?
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: Uh I've got here in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no, they were uh mine, yeah.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: I will put a I will put a page on it. When my mouse works again.
Project Manager: Oh, oh oh. Hey. Oh.
Industrial Designer: My mouse is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Dead.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Reanimate it.
User Interface: Died.
Industrial Designer: Oh. Ah, I've got it. I will put uh my email on the the network.
Marketing: What the hell are these?
Industrial Designer: It's on it.
Marketing: Oh, whatever.
User Interface: Yeah, it's open.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm. I don't think here {disfmarker} it's in here already.
User Interface: It's circuit board. It's only just basics for for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's nothing about s yeah.
User Interface: At the end circuit there is an infrared LED.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: This isn't helpful.
Project Manager: No. But i in the presentation of yours, there was also something about different components. Which one was it?
User Interface: Components design.
Project Manager: Functional requirements?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, that was my presentation.
User Interface: Components design maybe. N on top.
Industrial Designer: Yes, that was mine.
Project Manager: Ah. Ah yes, it was the second one.
Industrial Designer: But that was my second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, it was your second {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's already open.
Project Manager: your first presentation.
Marketing: It's at the bottom.
Project Manager: Sorry?
User Interface: Working design.
Marketing: It's uh at your task bar.
User Interface: Yeah, but it's the the other one.
Marketing: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh, this is n this is not this n
User Interface: Was it working design or components design?
Marketing: Sorry.
Project Manager: that's not the right one. I don't {disfmarker} oh.
Marketing: Okay, sorry.
Project Manager: No, this is the other one. Or maybe something is uh {disfmarker} maybe there's something abo in in these {disfmarker}
User Interface: Chip set.
Industrial Designer: But this is the same uh {disfmarker} This is o only the possibilities.
Project Manager: Here.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. We can use a simple, a regular, or advanced chip.
Marketing: Yeah, nice. I it doesn't say anything.
User Interface: The display requires an advanced chip.
Project Manager: You know that a push-button requires a simple chip, but a scroll-wheel, it it me requires {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah, okay.
Project Manager: Okay, so we only need a simple chip.
User Interface: Requires.
Industrial Designer: With the light.
User Interface: Little lights. Yeah, but that that's just the same as the the LED.
Project Manager: No no, that's just a simple chip. A scroll-wheel {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's not needed.
Project Manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip, and that a display requires an advanced chip. So, we don't need any of them.
Marketing: A display uh is, of course, uh for showing letters. For showing text.
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I don't think that uh just a l a little light {disfmarker}
User Interface: No. I think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay.
Marketing: Yeah, I agree.
Project Manager: And what's the sample sensor slash sample speaker?
Industrial Designer: Maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up, page down.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, I guess so too.
User Interface: Yeah, true. Well, that's not too {disfmarker} what we want.
Marketing: Next channel. No. Well, we might want it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} All in twelve Euros.
Project Manager: Back to the costs.
Industrial Designer: Twelve Euros and fifty cents.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we're gonna use the simple chip.
User Interface: So, simple chip is okay.
Marketing: Great. Delete.
Industrial Designer: And the lights. Where uh are the lights?
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, lights, yeah, there's no
Marketing: Well, there're three, I guess.
User Interface: category. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Nah, there is some money left to be spent.
User Interface: Can we do it wi within two two Euro?
Marketing: I think we can make a docking station. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control? But I mean it isn't {disfmarker} it hasn't got any innovative technology, we aren't gonna apply any uh innovated {disfmarker} innovative te technology anyway, I think. I don't I don't see any possibility to do so, because it would {disfmarker} wouldn't fit our defi design philosophy.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. But it's original.
Project Manager: But what w is there some extra {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, that's true.
Project Manager: maybe I think maybe the kinetic thing is something. Instead of the rechargeable {disfmarker} the rechargeable thing was something to um {disfmarker} know, so y so people wouldn't have to worry about their batteries anymore.
Marketing: M bu
Project Manager: Maybe we {disfmarker} if we put the kinetic thing in it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But but sometimes you put a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, you leave the p yeah, I know, but still I {disfmarker} they will think about that. I mean if you u
Industrial Designer: Kinetics aren't uh nowadays only used in watches and that's because you're always walking.
Project Manager: The uh {disfmarker} it's made for s people {disfmarker} well, the they don't {disfmarker} if it was uh uh r useless technology, they wouldn't put it uh as a possibility.
Industrial Designer: Uh solar cells are useless.
Project Manager: And i it it {disfmarker} th th the the target
Marketing: Or the hand dynamo dynamo {disfmarker}
Project Manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Because I think it {disfmarker} when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source, then it would be this one. Because it's one {disfmarker} it gets thrown around {gap} thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot {disfmarker} Hey that {disfmarker} maybe that's cool {disfmarker} that's a cool thing about it, you know. You don't use batteries.
Marketing: Yeah, but but if we ca
Project Manager: I've never seen it before in a remote control.
User Interface: But then we could make a docking station.
Marketing: I don't know if {disfmarker} Five minutes.
Project Manager: No, we we we can't make a docking station anyway.
Marketing: That's not true.
Project Manager: Yeah, we can als or uh also m we we can make one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Wow, w why no li
Marketing: We can make a docking station for two thirty.
Project Manager: we can still make {disfmarker}
User Interface: Look at now, we got two
Industrial Designer: Fo {vocalsound} for a docking station.
Marketing: Two thirty.
User Interface: two thirty left. Ca can't we make a docking station of that?
Marketing: We can make a docking station. Sure.
Industrial Designer: With a cable, with uh buttons on it, with retrieval uh device in it.
Marketing: Sure.
User Interface: I don't know.
Marketing: The power device is is i i is very cheap.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's just a regular uh power cable and whatever.
Project Manager: Yeah, but be serious, then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wi with a button to
User Interface: Well, we we uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: wi with a button to retrieve it, so it will beep.
Marketing: So.
Industrial Designer: Uh, so it's uh wireless technology.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we uh we don't inc we haven't looked at the {disfmarker} these costs of the speaker and other stuff. I don't think it's realistic for you to do so.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well then it's a useless project.
Industrial Designer: Look at the case,
Project Manager: Oh, because we {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: the case the case of of uh of uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, then we don't have any innovation things.
Project Manager: We {disfmarker} well look at all the special stuff we have. Colour a the colours are special, the form is special. It {disfmarker} th this is whole concept. Uh maybe it {disfmarker} with the kinetic thing, I think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Can't we uh {disfmarker} Can't we say fifteen Euros?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, no.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No, sta yeah {gap} I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No, then we have to sell it for thirty Euros.
Marketing: No.
User Interface: No, we only make less profit of it.
Industrial Designer: It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: You can sell for twenty seven and a half. Then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs.
User Interface: {vocalsound} No.
Project Manager: Yeah, I don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a {disfmarker} Uh uh I I I I still fee I also feel this concept of making it kinetic, because of the {disfmarker} you know, it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control.
Marketing: I don't think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can uh can do it both. Maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote. Battery and kinetic.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No, that wouldn't n no.
Marketing: Thirteen twenty.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, and it is also not a good {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker} you have to really do it only kinetic, you don't want it to think about batteries anymore.
Marketing: And I think only {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, but when it's {disfmarker} then when it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, but only kinetic, then you gotta {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No no.
Industrial Designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it's when it's empty.
Project Manager: Yeah, it's great.
Marketing: You you gotta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour, really.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no no. No no, this is very sophisticated technology technology.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: When you use it {disfmarker} your remote like once a day, or maybe even less i i it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You asked for three d No, that's n that's not true. Uh, a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} We can make it {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} no. Becau be but a remote control gets {disfmarker} why do they state that this technology can be used if it
Industrial Designer: Yes, solar cells are also stated.
Project Manager: Yeah, m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells.
Industrial Designer: Why don't we use solar cells then?
Project Manager: Because I think the d whole dynamic part, do you know, appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy, you know, with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing, and y when you move it around a lot, then people find the idea funny that when I move my remote control around and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's true.
Marketing: Yeah, it's funny for a week. I guess something like that, where you have to move it around very frequently, is demotivating.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but you don't have to. Trust me. The idea of this technology is that you don't think about it, it just happens.
Marketing: No, I I don't move my uh my remote control very much, seriously.
Project Manager: Okay, then we d Okay, well y we don't have to do it, but what {disfmarker} that would just have a lack of key features, you know.
Industrial Designer: Oui.
Project Manager: You m have to put something on your box. You have to make people buy it and uh {disfmarker} We can really can do the docking thing, uh it's not {disfmarker} yeah, uh we can do it, but it's would be a easy way out.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You can do it for fifty cents. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well, we've got more than fifty Cents.
Project Manager: Okay, but we have to grou to agree upon something,
Industrial Designer: The c {vocalsound} The case the case alone is is is uh
Project Manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so.
Industrial Designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one Euro. Then we have one Euro thirty for the whole docking station.
Project Manager: No no, it's not possible. Okay, w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it's {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} then then our concept is ready.
User Interface: Cheap remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah, we make some extra profit of it.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} No, we won't, but that's um something else.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It w it won't tell, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But now {disfmarker}
Marketing: No, this not gonna sell. No.
Project Manager: Huh, any ideas?
Marketing: Of course not.
User Interface: No, uh, n no
Industrial Designer: Great {gap}. It's great.
User Interface: Yeah, we just have to go all what we did today again. You have to do it over.
Industrial Designer: Our remote control.
Marketing: We come back tomorrow, okay?
Project Manager: No no uh there's still there's still someth concept and something special left.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {gap} the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Seventy Euros.
Project Manager: I mean we're gonna {disfmarker} it's gonna excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel.
User Interface: No, but {disfmarker} no.
Project Manager: That's what it's {disfmarker} makes it special. Yeah, and I would li I would have liked a kinetic part as well, to give it some just to give it some extra special feature, and uh I know it will work, but uh it's it's an {disfmarker} They're they're not putting technologies on this {gap}, but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen.
Industrial Designer: Why not a hand dynamo then?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, well we leave it like this. Then it's c then we're {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We can't do anything else. Warning, finish meeting now.
Industrial Designer: We're done.
Project Manager: Okay, project e uh
Industrial Designer: Is this it?
Project Manager: well, we were gonna what look {disfmarker} take a look at the last sheet.
Marketing: Yeah, {vocalsound} sure.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: No, we can't.
Project Manager: Yeah, we have to {disfmarker} Yeah, it's {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yes, yes. Celebration. I don't see why, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Where's the champagne?
Marketing: I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire, to be honest.
User Interface: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: I don't uh hear a bell.
Marketing: No, not yet.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We can do it here then.
Marketing: Alright, I'll see you guys in a minute.
Industrial Designer: Bye.
User Interface: Can we {disfmarker} can't we do it here?
Marketing: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't I don't think so.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh-huh. Just fill that one in.
User Interface: Yeah, we're doing now. But it's {gap}. Oh, okay.
Project Manager: Uh, I don't know.
User Interface: Nice. | Firstly, User Interface and Industrial Designer introduced the prototype of remote control based on the previous discussion of its form, material and the colour. The prototype was a pretty simple design with an obvious company logo on it and two buttons in the middle. Secondly, Marketing designed an evaluation test under the guidance of the advantages of its main features discussed before and the team gave one to seven points to each feature of the product to see if the prototype would meet the original requirements and goals. Lastly, the team calculated the cost of the prototype and found that it was not easy to land on the exact budget. After trying to incorporate as many functions as the team could for a while, the team decided to use regular chips, normal batteries and a combination of cheap materials and fancy ones, which made the budget under control. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Hi Kate. {vocalsound} Okay, carry on.
Industrial Designer: Just just carry on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting, the conceptual design meeting. Um our agenda should be um that we're opening the meeting, I have {disfmarker} the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point. Um and we should each have a presentation to make. Um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total. It's twenty five after two at the moment, so forty minutes is five after three, {vocalsound} um which I'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us. Okay. {vocalsound} Um there are the decisions we have to turn to, but we'll come back to them in a minute after I take us to the minutes of the previous meeting. Right um as we remember, I opened the meeting, the four of us were present, the meeting {disfmarker} the first meeting's minutes were reviewed and approved. Um Sarah, you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held, power, channel, volume, number keys, possibly a speech recognition. And then Steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use. I think all of us agreed with those things. Kate presented a working design of {disfmarker} going after {disfmarker} going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device, because of the twelve and a half Pence cost. Um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point. Um and the new requirements that it for {disfmarker} be for T_V_ only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included. Um {vocalsound} the corporate image. So we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense, that were decision makers. Alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the T_V_, but it still should meet those parameters. Um and that the function we agreed was volume, power, numbers, enter, channels, a way to move between channels, easy to use and hand-held. {vocalsound} Um at that point we agreed that Sarah would look at the current cost of competition, what what do the current ones sell for. Um and Steph was gonna look at ec ergonomics. Kate was gonna look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed. And I was to type up these minutes and work on the final report. Is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Okay. Right. So we're ready to close that and go back to our {disfmarker} That one. Right. We're up to the point of the {disfmarker} Go back. Um {vocalsound} the three presentations. So we're going to pull the plug on me and turn to Sarah. Is that okay? Is that alright with everybody else?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Especially since Kate asked to be last. {vocalsound} Sarah, I'm sorry if I misspelled your name, I didn't know whether it was S_A_R_A_ or {vocalsound} S_A_R_H_.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I respond to either.
Project Manager: You respond to whatever you get, huh? {vocalsound}
Marketing: No worries.
Project Manager: Okay. Um, did you do your {disfmarker} Hit {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, {gap}
Project Manager: Ah, there it is. Ta-da.
Marketing: Okay, first thing I want to address is um one of the points that Florence brought up, which was uh current cost of the competition devices, similar to the ones that Stephanie uh showed us and and they're uh twenty to sixty Euros, depending on uh branding.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: Some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end. But I think that with the current um price that we're searching for, we're well within, even on the lower end, of the uh of the market.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Marketing: But I'm going to move on to more interesting um {vocalsound} more vibrant things. {vocalsound} So, I investigated the remote control market in greater detail, and my uh {disfmarker} the theme of what I was to work on was uh trend watch.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so you know, I'm just gonna try to cloak it in really professional terms here. What's hot, fruit and veg. Spongy.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And this is all over the catwalks, Paris, Milan, and I'm talking about clothing, furniture, shoes. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: This is really interesting change from past years,
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: because it is much more organic, um some would say approachable. {vocalsound} And I think if we're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control, we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset. So. {vocalsound} I also did a little research on um {vocalsound} what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing. Fancy. Functional is out. And f the fancy, and that's exactly the term, I'm I'm thinking polished, elegant, {vocalsound} you know, kind of innovative, but a cut above. This is twice as important as the next finding, which is technologically innovative. This is interesting,'cause I think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important, but maybe what's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically {vocalsound} superior fabrics or uh, you know, designed in interesting substances. Ease of use. Again, pretty low, I mean it's the top three, but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important. So I think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of {vocalsound} fruit {vocalsound} fruit themed sleeves.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I think that's a good idea. Don't you? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Y yeah, you know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote, you know, your t your cell phone.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: Exactly. {vocalsound} Exactly. I was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned, you know, so, you know, something similar to a summer dress. {gap} you know, it would have like fruit and veg, is that we actually make these spongy.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: They could be {disfmarker} ini initially I thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held, so banana, pineapple and pear. Um it could actually {disfmarker} the sleeve could {vocalsound} take up a lot of the {vocalsound} development and the remote control, we'd just need to get reductionist on it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: They could be interchangeable, they're spongy, that goes back to ergonomic, and the youngsters love'em, fun for the whole family, everyone can have their own. So what we're talking about is changing. this concept. Everyone has a T_V_ remote, but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's what's hot on the catwalks. {vocalsound} So, this is my {disfmarker} This is what I'm thinking.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh mm. In most families, don't {disfmarker} isn't the remote {disfmarker} is a remote.
Marketing: Y yeah, but I think I think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it {disfmarker} we all need a remote,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising, I'm thinking the teenager, the {disfmarker} someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers.
User Interface: {vocalsound} So when your dad's sitting there, overriding your decision, going no we're gonna watch this, you can bring out your own remote and be like zap, no we're gonna watch this.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. W and {vocalsound} plus I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm. Well actually some households do have three and four T_V_s
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: and they would have a remote for each one,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so.
Marketing: Yeah. So this is an idea and I I {disfmarker} you know, this is exactly what the research has uh has shown. So I really open this up to uh any other feedback. This {vocalsound} spongy fruit and veg.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I think we're gonna have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this.
Marketing: Thanks. {vocalsound} Alright.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Spongy is gonna be difficult, I'm afraid.
User Interface: Yep. {vocalsound} And as for as for um well budgeting as well, if we're gonna have lots of different interchangeable components.
Project Manager: Hmm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I just have my ear to the market, guys. {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Is this {gap} to the market {gap}?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I mean basically we can make these things out of wood, titanium, plastic or rubber. I suppose rubber is the closest to spongy,
Marketing: Is spongiest, yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah.
Marketing: That would add {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I was thinking titanium myself.
User Interface: I was thinking titanium, I was thinking it's just {disfmarker} I have been influenced by pictures of iPods, and they're also minimalist and shiny.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} They are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority, which is fancy. I think many of us would associate those with fancy. Something else we could do is uh call it something that's fruit and veg oriented. We could call it uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The name.
Project Manager: Are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management
User Interface: Yeah, but it's kind of pointless, isn't it?
Project Manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That, you know, that might be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Let's delegate. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wo would that be agreeable?
Marketing: And then we could keep it titanium.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} W w would it be helpful if um I described the components a bit, because I think it would give you um {disfmarker} maybe bring this discussion back to Earth of what we can actually physically do.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, maybe. Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you wanna be next or you want Kate to go next?
User Interface: I think possibly it might be more useful if Kate went next.
Project Manager: Okay, we'll move the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} You can even have them in different flavours as well. {vocalsound} So that if you just wanna sit there and chew on the remote, it could be like pear flavour,
Marketing: Yeah. Or s or smelly. Scratchy
User Interface: yeah. Scratch and sniff. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh well I was really thinking a lot about the I_ uh the iMac kind of gel gem tone.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right, well
Marketing: It's hot on the streets, guys.
Industrial Designer: I I I think some of this um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you're gonna be a little disappointed with some of the things I have to tell you, but I'm afraid this is the real world. {vocalsound} So um I've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate, and I've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division, who have told me what's actually available, you know, what the current state of the art in components is, and some of the exciting new things they've got, but I'm not sure that it's quite what you want um. Now this isn't a very good overhead, but this is just to show you, this is the innards of a remote control um. I really need a pen or something but uh {disfmarker} does my mouse work? No. Um {disfmarker} oh yeah, can you see my little mouse pointer?
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Right. This is this is the a a {vocalsound} a remote that's been opened up
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and that's the the back of the interface. And this is a push-button one, so you see these little little buttons here, they're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here. Um {vocalsound} and we {disfmarker} that's the basic construction that we've got to got to accommodate. We got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver. So um I wan I wanna go through not not just addressing the um {vocalsound} uh the the points that you made, Sarah, but um {vocalsound} doing my presentation in the order I wrote it. {vocalsound} So first of all um I wanna talk about what possibilities we've got for the energy source.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um we can have your bog standard double double A_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment. We can have a hand {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sorry {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A wind-up.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: a wind-up, yeah, {vocalsound} which I think is quite an interesting concept for a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sorry {disfmarker} for a remote control,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but i it maybe is {disfmarker} doesn't quite go with the um the fruit and veg.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um one that one that I think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Remember, we only have forty minutes
Industrial Designer: where um {vocalsound} you you actually get the energy by moving the device,
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one. You have to {disfmarker} it means that if it's sitting there for a long time it probably won't work, but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then, it'll work.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Or we we had talked about solar power,
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: but I thing that we agreed that that's not so good in the dark.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Now I'm afraid this is the options we've got on on the case. It can be made of plastic, rubber, wood o if you like, {vocalsound} or titanium.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um and the nearest we've got to st to spongy there I guess is rubber, but um {vocalsound} I'm gonna come back to the advantages of titanium,
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: and basically it can have a flat surface, a curved surface or a double curved surface, but I think if we wanna use standard components, we're gonna have difficulty with anything much beyond that.
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Okay, what does the interface look like? Um well push button, that's that's the one we're all familiar with. {vocalsound} Um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push,
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down, change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something. {vocalsound} Um you can have multiple scroll buttons, um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated, but um it's it {disfmarker} the technology is there. And we can also incorporate an L_C_D_ display in the remote, but this will increase the cost. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um the electronics that actually makes the device work, we've basically got three, simple, regular, advanced, and the price goes up as we choose each of this. If we want the nice cheap one, the simple, then we can only have push buttons. All the other fancy interface designs go out the window, I'm afraid. Um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons. If you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more, but it {disfmarker} that's what you need if you want the L_C_D_ display. And the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices. Now I don't know what that is, but I think they think it's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere. Um ou our real expertise is in push buttons, I have to say, but maybe you think that's old technology. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} well I I think we've got two options. We can either go for a really cheap model, keep all of the costs down, um which {vocalsound} means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons. Or we can have something that looks a bit nicer, I think it, um won't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple, but um that {vocalsound} may or may not be a good thing.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry. {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} but it could have an L_C_D_ screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons, and it could have the the company's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker. {vocalsound} So, thank you.
Marketing: That sounds good. Any idea {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah,
Marketing: Um do you have any idea if if this could {disfmarker} if the fancy model could be done in twelve Euros fifty?
Industrial Designer: I'm afraid I don't have that information available. Um manufacturing didn't actually give {disfmarker} attach any prices to any of this, I'm afraid.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Hmm. Because, you know what, I'm being quite serious when I say that that um the things I mentioned are hot. But I think the important thing might be to choose one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah mm-hmm.
Marketing: You know, if if what you're telling me is is um some of these things aren't just f aren't feasible, maybe we could something about naming, we could call it, you know, Blackberry.
User Interface: Bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company,
Marketing: That's uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: so what I had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Banana?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright, well let's see then.
User Interface: But um I I don't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the Real Reaction company.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: It's just what I'd understood we'd be doing. That's before I heard about all this hot tips about the future, fruit-wise.
Marketing: Yeah. But {disfmarker} yeah,
Industrial Designer: We we could we could do um a double curved rubber one,
Marketing: I'm trying to streamline mine a little bit.
Industrial Designer: which would allow um say a banana, but um unfortunately I see from my notes that if we do that, we have to have a push button as the interface,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: we can't do anything fancier.
User Interface: Shall we wait'til I've'til I've showed you what {disfmarker} well, {vocalsound} my extensive presentation {vocalsound} on what sort of interfaces are available.
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Mm. Thank you, Kate.
Project Manager: Thank you, Kate.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: You did seem to include just in more detail what I've got though. So {vocalsound} so mine's a bit pointless. Right. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: F_N_ and F_ eight, did you say?
Project Manager: Yes. There we go.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't have it on mine though.
Marketing: Oh I think um Florence resolved it by
Industrial Designer: I If you do F_ uh F_N_ F_ eight again, it's {disfmarker} it'll {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do it again.
Marketing: F_ eight again.
Project Manager: Keep doing it until you get it in both {disfmarker} you get it there, you get it yours without that one,
Industrial Designer: I think it {disfmarker} yeah, you you will do an {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and then you get it with both.
User Interface: Should I do it again?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Maybe.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This time it should come up both.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Right then. I don't actually have a huge amount of different information then what Kate says,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: just that my method was to look at the, well, my my inspirations, which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing, including M_P_ three players, uh like you know, hi-fi remotes, not just television and these things.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm.
User Interface: Uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones, um what functions we actually need, and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece. {vocalsound} Uh I've been especially interested in the iPod style scroll wheel, which {disfmarker} Well, I couldn't find a {disfmarker} the picture of the iPod w only linked to a web browser, so I couldn't copy and paste it, but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right. It has uh scroll wheels without without a display, but they they scroll like a computer mouse.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: So I was thinking that uh {vocalsound} um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen. Like I guess an existing Sky or cable one does. Like, you know, you press enter and it comes up with what's showing on that channel at the moment, and you can do {disfmarker} you can scroll along and it'll show you what's on in the next half hour, and you scroll up
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can see what's on the other channels while you're watching the same channel on the screen. Uh but I'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote,
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice, big, easy buttons to press, but still quite simple and quite cost effective. So
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple, uh not fancy but not totally minimalist, I mean just pretty simple plastic, probably, I was thinking, yellow and black, just because that's the company's colours, with very very few buttons, but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen, like, you know, {vocalsound} just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the iPod style display screen on the actual remotes, which is far too expensive.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: And when you've got a screen sitting there in front of you, you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you, it doesn't obscure much of the actual picture you're watching.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: And so on that you can, just much in the same way as an existing Sky remote, scroll along, scroll up and down.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I'd I'd certainly support that idea.
User Interface: And uh and I definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber. I mean titanium would be great, but I think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey. If we're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic, then I think titanium's too futuristic.
Industrial Designer: It's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well, we can't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately.
User Interface: Yeah. Whereas a plastic's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: Uh {vocalsound} then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And the the having the the the screen on the television screen I think is a good idea,'cause um {vocalsound} otherwise we're we're putting up the price not only for putting {disfmarker} building the L_C_D_ in, but for the electronics as well.
User Interface: And it's a little bit pointless as well I think.
Industrial Designer: There is that.
User Interface: Like when when when you've got when you've got the screen there, it doesn't have to be anything fancy,
Marketing: It's a duplication.
User Interface: just a little menu showing {disfmarker} yeah, a menu, you go into one menu and then it can have your different options, whether you wanna change the settings or the you know, your information about programme that's on at the moment.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I don't think that's to taxing to uh s engineer. {vocalsound} Um. But as for actually arranging them {disfmarker} let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one. And I quite like it,'cause it's just smooth and hand-held and it's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out, so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle. Up, down, left, right.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Do you want scroll buttons in that as well?
User Interface: I I was thinking not actually scroll, like a like mouse scroll, but you know, a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I can't quite d uh describe it. {gap} you see on the one on the right, down at the bottom, is the mouse. Yeah, see where the mouse is,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: like this s style thing where you c have up, down, left and right. And enter in the middle,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right.
User Interface: so you pick your menu and then {disfmarker} your different options and when when you click on each one, it {disfmarker} you can go into a new menu for that. I'm getting a bit uh specific here.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Really we'd have to use something to show you,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I think I think that's a g nice clean design,
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology.
Marketing: {vocalsound} To uh m make it.
User Interface: If {disfmarker} I don't think I can get it up on the screen. Ah here we go. Right.
Marketing: Oh nice.
User Interface: Well,
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Hmm.
User Interface: the iPod spinning wheel is uh really complicated.
Project Manager: Huh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: It does scroll, but it is hugely complicated. What else have we got?
Marketing: Mm. Wow.
User Interface: Them, they're terrible. But they all have this this feature of this uh {disfmarker} It's not quite a scroll wheel, but it's a kind of selection in this circle,
Project Manager: It's a selection wheel.
User Interface: which I think is a really good idea.
Industrial Designer: But we can implement it with simple push buttons, which is much cheaper.
User Interface: Yeah, like up, down, left and right. Which is good. And then and then {disfmarker} Yeah, so I mean either a channel up and down, volume up and down, next appearing programmes up and down, {vocalsound} uh and then also {vocalsound} when you get into the different menus on the screen, it's got your things like settings and contrast up and down.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: And that's it.
Industrial Designer: In fact {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Look at look at this one.
Industrial Designer: Oh that's really nice. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost impossible to misplace or l or lose.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Do you think with um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Might take up your whole living room.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic, perhaps the {disfmarker} something reminiscent of the child's remote. Do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour? And have it abstract. You know,
User Interface: Possibly.
Marketing: we could call {vocalsound} like a fruit name,
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: but it would be a little more abstract.
Industrial Designer: Mm. We we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you'd rather {disfmarker} if you feel {disfmarker} if you like the spongy {disfmarker}
User Interface: That also is possible.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Just {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm just just throwing out ideas.
Project Manager: Or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Marketing: Yeah. I'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Uh just something else I need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote? This is actually the volume up and down,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: but {vocalsound} they both say V_ on them,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: which, when you first look at it, {vocalsound} you expect that to be the down, because it looks like a downward pointing arrow,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: but it's actually the V_ to indicate that it's the volume, so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Nice. Good point.
User Interface: But we wouldn't have a specific volume up and down. If we're having the scroll wheel, then it's gonna double up as all the other up and down functions.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
User Interface: But then, that's complicated.
Project Manager: I wanna thank you all for all your presentations. We have about ten minutes left, in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts. Um and I think you all have been self-stimulating of working together. Um we need to come up with some specifics of the components, um the materials, things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things. So {vocalsound} let's {disfmarker} Mm. Right. They want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use, which {disfmarker} the choices that we've discussed were pretty much battery, kinetic or solar. Um this is where Kate's expertise comes in, and our decision making will be a little bit guided by Kate at this point.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The {disfmarker} You were saying that the kinetic would be useful, that is you just have to move it some and you'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries. Um or solar that you'd have difficulty with it if it's a dark day, that it'll die on you, and no way to do it. That's the day you wanna use the T_V_.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Um so what's our pleasure here, what would be the cost consequences of each of the three?
Industrial Designer: Oh unfortunately I don't have costing information.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I i in terms of workability, I I think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic,
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: but I'm sorry I don't figures on the difference in cost.
Project Manager: What's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic?
Marketing: I've used kinetic in terms of watches and it's very very uh handy, you don't even notice um that it's there.
User Interface: It sounds great. I've never come across it before, but it sounds fantastic. Sounds like it could be g a really good economical {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter, more convenient.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: It could tie in with the fanciful design
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: as uh, you know, {vocalsound}
User Interface:'Cause it's really a quite attractive thought,
Marketing: throw the banana, you know, just gotta keep it moving.
User Interface: isn't it? It's like {disfmarker} yeah,
Project Manager: So the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it's at all possible.
User Interface: a good selling point.
Marketing: Be
User Interface: But it does depend how much I mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs.
Project Manager: It costs. {vocalsound} Mm.
Industrial Designer: And and how much you do have to keep it moving,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer:'cause I'm conscious that watching T_V_ can be quite a sed sedentary activity.
Marketing: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: But I could market that as a um as a {vocalsound} a {disfmarker} I was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road, in terms of battery, you know.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Do your exercises while you're watching the T_V_. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: True, yeah, m more more environmentally friendly.
User Interface: Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. You know,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: kind of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish, thanks.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh right, okay,
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision.
Industrial Designer: I'd {disfmarker} that that's something I maybe should have covered. Um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: um and I would certainly recommend it, I think, because I'm not sure I have an alternative.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What about the ca
Industrial Designer: I i it it's just the way that the the the uh th the way it's ac it's actually built
Project Manager: yeah. Oh, the way we {gap} uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper.
Project Manager: Oh, okay. Um what about the case? I think they're talking there about do we want wood, plastic, titanium or rubber,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I think we've discussed not having titanium. One, it's too expensive, um and second, it won't do this double um curves. Um we've sort of eliminated wood. We said plastic or rubber. What's the pleasure?
Industrial Designer: Well if if Sarah's keen on a spongy feel, the the rubber that we're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls, so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sold.
Industrial Designer: yeah.
Project Manager: What about you?
User Interface: Do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside, and then a kind of spongy Yeah, s thick spongy cover,
Marketing: Mm. Kind of like an internal egg.
Project Manager: Cover.
User Interface: so it feels like the whole thing's spongy, but actually you're not damaging anything by squeezing it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Plastic inside.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Because I mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac
Industrial Designer: I'd I'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that's actually possible, but I agree, it's uh {disfmarker} sounds like a nice idea if it is.
User Interface: Yeah. Well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile, you just wanna stroke them and squeeze them,
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And with sports on television.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: You know. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um the next part they want is the user interface concept.
Industrial Designer: I should I should r {gap}
Marketing: I su
Project Manager: I'm sorry to push you, but we only have a couple minutes to {vocalsound} finish with.
Marketing: Then I'll just say I support either {disfmarker} from a marketing point of view I support either decision that the designers make on that.
Project Manager: Okay, and it says interface. What type and what supplements?
User Interface: Just copy the one on the left. {vocalsound} No um a scroll {disfmarker} Well, like four buttons, up, down, left and right with enter in the middle, that will correspond to a menu on the screen.
Industrial Designer: Which I think technically is just push button and uh I'd certainly support that that
User Interface: Yeah,
Industrial Designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot
User Interface: I'd {disfmarker} like push buttons with {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and it's something that we're an ex the company's an expert on.
User Interface: So push buttons {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} that's that. Um this is gonna sound weird, but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Whew.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And they actually want a look and feel design, user interface design, you can look and see this as well as I can. Marketing they want product evaluation.
User Interface: No, it's still it's still plugged in on mine actually.
Marketing: No we can't, actually.
Project Manager: Oh. Oh my, I'm sorry.
Marketing: That's why I was looking over your shoulder
Project Manager: Oh, okay. Sorry about that. missed that one. This ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work. Ah, ta-da.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Now it's gone again.
Project Manager: Ah.
Industrial Designer: You know, I think the the company's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes, because I can't even see mine. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes,
User Interface: Oh yes.
Project Manager: these are {vocalsound} the individual actions. Yeah, right. Um the look and feel design is for Kate,
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: uh Steph gets the user interface design, you get product {vocalsound} evaluation. Um the two of you {vocalsound} get to play with a Pla modelling clay um to do a prototype.
User Interface: Great.
Project Manager: Uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way.
Marketing: Sounds good.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Anything else we need to do?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think so.
Project Manager: Go to it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Play-Doh.
Project Manager: And that's the end of this meeting. That's for her benefit. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's really all I got, guys.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} | This meeting was a conceptual design meeting. In this meeting, the group mainly discussed the component, energy source, buttons, colours and styles of the remote control. They decided to use the kinetic as the energy source because of its convenience, light weight, fancy design and the good selling point of the environment, but they still needed more cost research. They also reached a final consensus to apply a hard plastic inner shell with a spongy plastic for the component, and push buttons for the type of interface due to their common features of convenience and user-friendliness. | qmsum |
What did the group discuss about Industrial Designer's presentation on energy source and case material design of the remote control?
Marketing: Oh right okay. {vocalsound} I cover myself up. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I feel like Madonna with one of these on. I said I feel like Madonna with one of these on. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've always wanted one of these, I really have. {vocalsound} Where do you buy'em from? {vocalsound} They're {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right. Hello everybody.
User Interface: Hello.
Project Manager: Back again for another wonderful meeting.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is uh everyone ready?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Almost. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, we c we can hold on for a minute.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh my gosh. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I figured with the spam thing, if you can't beat it, join in. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm'kay.
Project Manager: Are you ready? Okay, right, well, I take it that you are all ready now.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um alright first off we'll just uh recap from our last meeting. Um {vocalsound} which was we got together just to basically decide on {disfmarker} well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and who we all are and stuff like that, mm get bit more of an idea together of what's going on. {vocalsound} Um what we are gonna talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing, now we know that it's a T_V_ remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh R_ and D_ for that, that's research and development for those that haven't heard that before,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: see I'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today. Um yeah, we're gonna hear your uh th three little presentations,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want.
User Interface: Hmm. {vocalsound} Do you have any preference uh of order?
Project Manager: Um I'd like to um hear
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: o I'd like to hear who's g who's on the um from from uh Catherine actually first. I want {disfmarker} what I'd like to hear about is uh if we've finally decided on um what sort of energy we're gonna be using and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Batteries.
User Interface: I think she is still finishing her {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no no, it's fine I'm just preparing.
Project Manager: It's just that {disfmarker} yeah, let's let's hear from you first.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Where is that thing?
User Interface: Okay, it's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's here.
Industrial Designer: Oh sorry, couldn't see.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Would that work?
Project Manager: Get yourself in position. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay, so that's me again.
Marketing: Ah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery, a hand dynamo which is {disfmarker} which was used uh in the fifties for torches, if you remember that kind of {disfmarker} which wouldn't be v wouldn't be v v
Project Manager: I don't think any of us remember the fifties.
User Interface: Is it like a crank thing or something {gap}.
Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. It wouldn't be very fancy.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can have a kinetic provision of energy, which is used on some watches these days. So if you have just a bit of gentle movement that {disfmarker} it will give it the energy to work.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Or you can use solar cells, but I'm not sure about that indoors, really, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, there's sometimes combinations, I mean, like calculators do combinations of battery with {disfmarker} but also using some solar power.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Do {gap} sol solar panel things, do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb?
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Does anybody know?
Industrial Designer: I dunno actually.
User Interface: Uh I think, it has to be on the on the solar energy, but I don't know.
Industrial Designer: I dunno. Um. Think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery, really.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh if we want something fancier, I think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: but I don't know if it's worth the cost. So we've got to discuss that.
Project Manager: Mm. Okay, jolly good.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} For the case of the remotes itself, um they can be a general case, which is just a flat one. You can have uh a curved one or a double curved one, if you know what I mean, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's a double curved one?
Industrial Designer: You know, kind of more ergonomic, that kind of suits the palm of your hand, that kind of thing.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um then the case material itself, so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex, uh rubber, wood, or titanium. And th for each of them you have uh cases where {disfmarker} for example titanium, you can't use it for {disfmarker} if you if we're choosing a double curved case, we can't choose titanium. And if we are choosing um solar cells then we can't choose latex for the case material, so we just have to take that into account. But if we're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything. And I think we discussed earlier on the R_ S_ I_ problem thing, so we could uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So that might be an idea of using the rubber,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but then it should, you know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Let's have a squeezable remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And also it doesn't break as easily maybe,
Project Manager: {gap} when a T_V_ programme's got one {gap}
Industrial Designer: I dunno {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: watching the match and {gap} your team's just lost, you can fuzz it across the room and it'll bounce off the wall back at you.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, I like that idea.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: So rubber would be {disfmarker} Okay.
Marketing: I think rubber's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Rubber, we're all we're all going {disfmarker} we're all liking that idea? You think you can market that?
Marketing: But after my after my fashion thing, I think you'll realise that rubber is more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ooh, we like rubber, ooh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh s so if d
Marketing: People. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: okay. And then there are the push-buttons, so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels, like you have on a mouse, um or you could have um L_C_D_, which gives you a display. Um scroll buttons, as well.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: So if you use a rubber double curved case, you must use rubber push-buttons. So if we're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case. Um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons.
Project Manager: Well, we're gonna go with {gap} I think we've decided that it's gonna be a rubber case so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So it's a constraint. Yeah, but is it a double curved one or not? {vocalsound} If it's not a double curved, then we've got the choice for the push-buttons, if it's a double curve, we've gotta go for rubber push-buttons. If that makes sense.
Project Manager: {gap} push buttons instead of the wheel?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}.
User Interface: If it's rubber, isn't it malleable anyway, {gap} it doesn't matter if it's double {disfmarker} I mean isn't a rubber case, mean it's completely flexed, I mean, it it flexes to whatever they want it to? Mean so what's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double {disfmarker} rubber double curved case? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} rubble double double. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No, but na le you see, you've got, okay, the energy that's one thing,
Project Manager: I'll have a Big Mac, please. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: then you have the case is uh, whether it's flat or curved. And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we don't care if it's rub rubber or not, but then we've decided that we going for rubber for the case material. So if we've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it's flat, single curved or double curved. And I'm just saying if it {disfmarker} if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go {disfmarker} I dunno why, but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons. So, either {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I dunno we just need to decide on the on the case.
Project Manager: Let's have rubber push buttons, hey.
User Interface: Okay. Go rubber. Go rubber the whole way.
Industrial Designer: Let's go crazy. {vocalsound} And then, do I have a last slide? Yes, I do. Um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be {disfmarker} so that's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um and the price that go with it with it, so the simple push-buttons are gonna be the cheapest. Uh if we get a scroll-wheel, that's a higher price range. If we get an advanced chip which is um used for the L_C_D_, the display thing, then that's even more expensive.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Simple, yeah. Chip on print. It's a bit {gap}. {vocalsound} Okay, uh what I'm not understanding here
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} is uh, okay, advanced chip on print, which I presume is like one P_C_B_ and that's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender?
Industrial Designer: {gap}. Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The infra-red. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Um what a what alternatives do we have to that? {vocalsound} Y um {vocalsound} what alternatives do we have to the chip on print?
Industrial Designer: Well, if if it's not chip on print then, I guess, you get different chip components, and you build them separately and doesn't include the infra-red. It's less expensive mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} so it sounds {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Technically speaking, it's not as advanced, but it does the job, too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, why would we not go for that? If it's something that's inside the the unit. {vocalsound} I it doesn't affects whether the customer's gonna buy it or not.
Industrial Designer: Fo It doesn't, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah.
Project Manager: Um we wanna go for an i i all {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So let's not go for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so long as it works,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. I agree.
Project Manager: you know. So let's not let's uh not bother with the chip on print.
Industrial Designer: So it's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah. S yeah, push buttons.
Marketing: What about the just developed uh sample sensor?
User Interface: I think push-buttons is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What about what?
Marketing: G there, the sample sensor, sample speaker thing.
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit?
Marketing: Mm, I dunno. Be cool.
Industrial Designer: It'd be it'd be cool, but they are saying they've just developed it,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Channel two. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm just guessing. But it's gonna be the most expensive option, probably and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: S
User Interface: Th the the {vocalsound} speech recognition um option is {disfmarker} it doesn't seem really very promising for us uh,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's not something that we wanna t go into with this product.
User Interface:'cause uh {disfmarker} The yeah the example that they're already using it for is with the coffee machine, where, basically, you can program a sample wi um {disfmarker} That when you say something it will give a response, and you program the response as well. Just uh clips of tha that you record yourself. So you can program your coffee-maker that when you say, good morning, to it it says, hello Rick, or whatever.
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But, I mean, it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hm.
User Interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the T_V_ on like, turn the T_V_ on, and i turns {disfmarker} comes on, but it's not that. It just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response.
Marketing: Oh, it just gives an answer.
User Interface: So, yeah, I mean, like what's the point of saying, Hello remote, I mean, hello, how how are you? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, then then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just if you are really lonely, maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thought I thought it was {disfmarker} when they said {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, if you're really lonely, it is it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I thought when they said, voice recognition, they meant um like,
Industrial Designer: Channel five. And then it switches on.
Marketing: channel five, and it will change.
User Interface: No, tha that w that w that would be more promising.
Marketing: Like you talk to it. Can I have channel five?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It it's just a remote that talks to you.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: Uh. {vocalsound} I mean to certain cues.
Marketing: Oh, then {gap} forget about it. Oh right okay.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so I'll go back, maybe, to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem, what we should choose. So for the energy source, do we go for the battery or the {disfmarker}
User Interface:'Kay. Yeah, I'm fine with the basic battery.
Project Manager: Basic battery.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: It's cheap, it's cheerful, it's worked, does work.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Cheaper option. Are you happy with that?
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So we'll go for the battery. Then the case, do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved?
Project Manager: We were go we were going with the late with the the R_S_I_ rubber, weren't we?
User Interface: Yeah, so we want it rub rubber double curved. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it will look like something like this.
Industrial Designer: Double?
Project Manager: The double whopper, please.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so then if we use double curved case, then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons,
Project Manager: Yep, but {disfmarker} we're going for the simple buttons.
User Interface: So rubber rubber keys, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that's fine?
Project Manager: And it's cheapest all round, it sounds kinda funky, and we can also market it
Industrial Designer: P
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: as i'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the R_ {disfmarker} people were getting the {disfmarker} complaining about R_S_I_, and this is anti-R_S_I_.
Marketing: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that's another marketing point that we can use.
Marketing: Well the rubber push-buttons {gap}. Don't you have to move your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But anything is gonna have buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Even if it's a jog wheel, it's still repetitive. You {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You see, you can still get {disfmarker} it does you still get repetitive strain injury, whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen.
Industrial Designer: That they don't. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's the v it's the fact that you are pressing the same {disfmarker} doing the same movement.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: It's not actually what you are doing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-R_S_I_ ps specific {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, the rubber's good.
User Interface: We're giving them a way to burn off steam, basically, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, so they can sit there and go like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Not that watching T_V_ should be that stressful.
Project Manager: And you know, yeah, you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah, I guess T_V_ can be stressful, yeah, if you're watching sports.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright, that's me done.
Project Manager: Okay, Gabriel. Let's um let's let's hear from you about the um it's {disfmarker} the interface.
User Interface: Alright. Alright. Yeah, some of what I have to say ties into what Catherine was just talking about.
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: Sorry.
User Interface: Okay, so I'm continuing with the user interface uh topic. And so basically I consulted with our manufacturing division. It sounded like Catherine was also speaking with them. Uh I also took uh Reissa's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um,'cause I think that's that's crucial as far as uh what keys we're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they're laid out.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products, uh like the coffee machine. So I already mentioned the speech recognition interface.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I guess, we we basically vetoed that idea. It's it's pointless.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh it's just a sample sensor sample output. It would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the T_V_. Uh so yeah, they they also give the uh {disfmarker} they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an M_P_ three player like iPod.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Um so we've already addressed that and I think that would actually be worse for something like R_S_I_ I mean you got that thumb movement that you're constantly doing.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Um the other suggestion,
Marketing: That does get annoying.
User Interface: and I I have a feeling that we're interested in in something more general, but they suggested uh, you know, going i a little bit into a a niche, like either gearing our remote towards kids, where you could have {gap} lot of colours um, the keys might be you know, funny or or {gap},
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: or uh something for the elderly, where the remote's very large and the buttons are very large and there's only a few buttons. But you know we can we can discuss this, but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general, but done well.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh {gap} um {disfmarker} So, the key layout and design are really crucial. You don't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um. And I didn't mention that we need a power button {gap} in our last {disfmarker} I can give you an example here of uh, {gap} good layout and bad layout
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh from our manufacturing department. So this would be an example of bad layout, where you have volume up and volume down, but they have a V_ on both of them, so uh
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: it's sort of confusing for the user. Uh this is the example of the giant remote that's impossible to lose.
Project Manager: Do we have an uh example of a good one? {gap} {vocalsound} Brilliant.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And for {disfmarker} something for kids. Yeah. Um.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And so, yeah, I th I think my personal preferences of {disfmarker} we've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um. Uh so I was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense. I think it should be more general.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I didn't I didn't think the spinning-wheel or the uh L_C_ display were were crucial for us. And, yeah, that's it for me.
Project Manager: Okay. Well let's um {disfmarker} so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team? The um {disfmarker} The the um the interface type we're going for {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we're {disfmarker} we're not gonna have any sort of display I think uh.
Project Manager: Just the simple s simple straight set of buttons.
User Interface: So, yeah, it's just gonna be just gonna be push-buttons. Um. I think we shall have a limited number of buttons,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: ideally, I mean a a power, channel up, channel down, volume up, volume down, and a numerical keypad.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh. And some sort of {disfmarker} it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I guess it's to the point where we need to decide about that.
Project Manager: Okay, and we're not {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Well now that we've decided on our {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} Are we gonna hav hav {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} are we d
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: have we decided on whether w we're gonna s supplement it with anything, you know, colours or particular gimmicky bits to it, we're not we're just gonna go for something {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um it seems like we wouldn't wanna make it too busy and too sort of gaudy,
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: but um {disfmarker} Yeah, I would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere, like maybe the R_R_ can be yellow, or something like that.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okey-dokey. Yeah, I don't have any other questions on this. Let's move over to {disfmarker}
User Interface: I I guess {vocalsound} the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before.
Project Manager: Yeah, sure.
User Interface: I mean,'cause uh s so if we wanna have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button.
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: But I think that should be {disfmarker} I mean um, I can speak with the button department, but uh I think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating.
Project Manager: Yeah, the button that just does that, yeah.
User Interface: So that should be simple.
Project Manager: Cool.
Marketing: Right. Well, I'm just basically letting you know what's happening in the markets
Project Manager: Mm yeah.
Marketing: and what the fashions are for next year. Um. So yes {vocalsound}, so from looking at this year's trends and fashions
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and also recent investigation that we've done in the remote control market, we have found that for the remote control market {vocalsound} these are like most important aspects like that we really need to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: which we've already probably discussed. Um {vocalsound} the most important aspect is look and feel. So the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already {disfmarker} that we already have. So it has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, why should people buy this when they're already got a remote that came with the T_V_?
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Exactly.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um second, uh it should be technologically innovative innovative. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's that mean?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Technologically it should be like um work, basically, I guess. It should work.
User Interface: Well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense,
Marketing: Should {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean have something that's little more technologically advanced than what's on the market.
Marketing: That's new.
Project Manager: Okay, now the trouble is is we've already decided that we're going with the stuff that works already, that's cheap.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I mean, these first two points we've already sort of gone away from,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface:'cause our rubber one is not fancy {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: I mean it's different, but I wouldn't say like a rubber remote is fancy. If that's what people want then we {disfmarker} maybe we're going in the wrong direction. And it's it's not technologically innovative either.
Project Manager: Maybe we could um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So, {gap} no loose {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: That's why I was thinking, Bluetooth,'cause if you like put up Bluetooth, and it's like a Bluetooth remote control, everybody's gonna like, oh,'cause Bluetooth is the in thing nowadays, like it really is {vocalsound}, like people {disfmarker} and um when it comes to marketing like that's what people go for, they don't really care whether, you know, at the end of the day whether it works properly or not.
Project Manager: Of course, they do.
Marketing: Well, they do, but it's like it's not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} One hundred per cent, that's your first thing, you go, oh I'm not gonna buy that,'cause I dunno if it works or not.
Marketing: Yeah, but it looks good. If it looks good and it's {disfmarker} it can just be there for decoration. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, well, what do you two think about this?
User Interface: So is is the advantage of Bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other
Marketing: But like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} I don't understand what m
User Interface: electronics?
Marketing: You could always insert, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's basically what it allows you to do,
Project Manager: Yeah,
User Interface: right?
Project Manager: and it {disfmarker} this is just gonna {gap} {disfmarker} all this is being used for is your television.
Marketing: Yeah, but, I mean, people like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It would {disfmarker} that would mean you'd need a television that has Bluetooth in it, which no no television does,
Marketing: Well, if you're looking at {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you {gap} looking at something that's going to be bought by people, you have to make it new, you have to make it state of the art.
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: does it? That would mean we'd have to make a television as well.
Industrial Designer: Bluetooth would, for example, enable you, I think, to um um connect {disfmarker} for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone, but your mobile phone is downstairs or something, you would get on your television you're being called by this person right now. Things like that.
Project Manager: No, that would be your telephone {gap} in with your television.
Industrial Designer: No i
User Interface: Yeah, the {disfmarker} that wouldn't be the remote so much,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah,
User Interface: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and i
Industrial Designer: No, but if you get Bluetooth on the remote, you'd be able to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah, the televi the television would have to be a Bluetooth compatible, basically.
Industrial Designer: I with the television, yeah. {gap} I was just trying to find an advantage. Wha what w what advantage would you get for the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Well, it doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: An and there is no there is no such thing
Marketing: Like it doesn't have to be, you know, Bluetooth, that was just an idea, but like it needs do something that, you know, is new. Whether it's a battery {disfmarker} it could be something really really minor, you know, like {disfmarker} but I think we are really keeping to what is already out there, and people've already seen it, people've already got it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: If we want something new, we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative.
Industrial Designer: Maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then. It's been done for watches, but I haven't seen that for remotes, yet.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Yeah, this {disfmarker} that's that's very good.
Marketing: And then you can market it. Never have to change a battery again. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Change the batteries ever again.
Project Manager: And and this is all tying in very nicely.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The fact that it's made out of this rubber, we can throw it about. Th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about, because it charges itself up by doing it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, well, and in little characters you say, yeah, but not too much. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes, so can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But yeah, by the squeezing it the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think, safety s
User Interface: Yeah, we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating {disfmarker} like the energy generator.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's a great idea. Well done.
Marketing: Yeah. Third most important aspect {vocalsound} uh is it's easy to use.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} we're all about that.
Marketing: And I think we've all um worked that out. Um okay, in the fashion, how it's supposed to look. Next year's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths, shoes and furniture. {vocalsound} So next year people will be buying {vocalsound}, I found this really funny {vocalsound}, you know, strawberry shaped chairs,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I wanna watch the pineapple channel. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Rubber things. {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} and as it's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy, so it's it's not quite spongy, but spongy, I would say is {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: Well spongy, that's where {gap}. Yeah, we're we're ahead of the game there.
User Interface: Yeah, that's great for us.
Marketing: yeah, so we're in.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And so personal {gap} what I was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel, while still keeping to the company's image, basically. So yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {gap}. I had to say {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: So we're moving in the right direction like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright, yeah, no, this i this is good,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so through all that we've {disfmarker} we go we're {disfmarker} right, we're gonna go go back to um going with the kinetic thing,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep.
User Interface: Yeah, that's great.
Project Manager: that's great, using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-R_S_I_ you can {disfmarker} as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself, you are charging the batteries {vocalsound},
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm.
Project Manager: and um I'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No vegetables.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know how we incorporate {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We don't have to follow every trend, I guess.
Marketing: Maybe make it like fruity colours or something.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Marketing: Some sort. Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: The power button could be like a big apple or something.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well yeah, but Apple would sue you for that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, this is true {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: They don they don't own {vocalsound} all images of apples. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} sued the Beatles so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, we'll make it a uh pomegranate, a big pomegranate.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, okay, it seems like the only thing that we haven't really finally um agreed on is its image. Like, yeah, we're we're saying no we don't want it to be fruit and vegetables, but we dunno what it should be,
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: or like are we going {disfmarker} yeah it looks slick, but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing?
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think, if it's rubber it needs to be
Project Manager: I mean you said earlier on i {vocalsound} it should be funky.
Marketing: different. I think, it's {disfmarker} it should be {disfmarker} I mean, what do you associate with rubber? You know like
Project Manager: {vocalsound} L keep it clean, keep it clean. {vocalsound}
Marketing: really different colours basically.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, sor I sorry, I used the wrong word, what do you associate with the mate the material {vocalsound} that material? {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um like I'm just thinking bright colours.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Bright natural colours, nothing too {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bright, but not too bright. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bright, but too {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink. Wanna make it different colours so {vocalsound} anybody can choo like like {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like the volume buttons should be the {disfmarker} all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that, do you mean?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah. And on the back of it have the logo.
Project Manager: Okay, what {gap}?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Sure.
Industrial Designer: Why not?
Project Manager: Okay. Tha
User Interface: The one thing I'm wondering about, I hope that we're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I mean we {disfmarker} that's we we {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean if somebody go goes into the store they're gonna see like three or four normal remotes, and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} This is the remote control tomato. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean {vocalsound} what are ninety per cent of people gonna take? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can say in this country, you'll get, you know, lots of people wanting something really funky and cool. Like {disfmarker} and kids will be walking in with their parents saying, Mummy I wanna buy that one.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And uh parents will see the will see the pro as well, because it's um like kids won't break it, it's not breakable if you throw it around.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Especially with younger kids, you know they can pick it up and and {disfmarker} Yeah. The only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, it's it's gotta be chew proof. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'm gonna write that down.
Marketing: So {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: so it's rea it's quite
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's quite like um user friendly
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and also for different families, like like family use as well, so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it, I think. Especially maybe younger girls if it's in pink they'll be like {gap} pink remote control for their room something.
Project Manager: So, what are you saying, maybe we should market it in different colours for different {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so we could do like the pink range, the blue range, the green range, the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: So like you walk in, you're like, oh I like that remote control, because it's so bright, and then, and then the shop assistant comes up and says, oh what colour would you like? and then they go like, oh I can choose the colour {vocalsound} wow. So it puts, I think, even the customer into more control over what they're buying instead of, you've got all colour it's either that or nothing. So they also get to pick. Well, personally I like walking into a shop and choosing a colour.
User Interface: Yeah I mean, that that seems to work well with for products like iPod,
Marketing: It's um {disfmarker}
User Interface: where, you know, you have a variety of colours, that people feel like they're customising it when they buy it, even, you know, just just by the fact of choosing.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah. Mm.
Industrial Designer: Although I'd be curious to see how many uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: D you've got the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You know, there are some colours that I wouldn I would never choose, and I would be curious how many people choose that colour.
Project Manager: Well that's that can be down to bit of market researching you know,
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: if that's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And produce less of the silly colours, maybe.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Alright. Well um, we'll {disfmarker} alright let's {disfmarker} what we're gonna aim to get together by the next meeting then um {vocalsound} is from you Catherine wi your y y you know you're gonna be working on the the look and feel design.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Um Gabriel, you're gonna be working on, you know {disfmarker} come up with the the user interface design. Then basically, you two are gonna be working together on this. You won't be going off to your separate offices.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Um and I think you are gonna get a chance to play with some clay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh right.
Project Manager: I think, yeah, it's gonna {vocalsound} you know,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: come up ki you know, be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas.'Cause at the moment, uh you know, it's it's hard.
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Project Manager: We were kinda going, yeah, it's gotta feel nice, it's gotta look cool and that it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you know now we can actually start, you know, s some sort of physical something or other.
User Interface: That sounds good.
Project Manager: Um and you're gonna be working on the product evaluation.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Evaluation.
Project Manager: Um. {vocalsound} And I {vocalsound} will be uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: talking to the bosses, basically, and uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh
Industrial Designer: Great.
Project Manager: that's it really. Keeping things t well, uh you know, ho hopefully uh keeping things together. Um. Yeah, that's {disfmarker} This is this is uh good. So we know for definite we know we've we've now got some definite things going on. We definitely know how it's powered,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: we definitely know that um it's gonna be a simple buttons, we're not gonna be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things, so we've we're keeping the costs down. It's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky. Don't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: People, you know, people are saying, oh, standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury, well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: It's supposed to fix it rather than cause it. Um. {gap} you know, we're gonna we we're gonna as a sort of extra something on it, you know what what extra things {disfmarker} are there extra things this product have? We'll look into this lock key
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: facility, although whether or not it happens, {vocalsound} or is possible, I don't know, but something to look into. Okay. I think that's um {disfmarker} well done everybody. Anyone have any uh any questions,
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: everyone know what they're doing?'Cause if you don't, you'll {disfmarker} I'm sure you'll soon get an e-mail about it.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm, I think we all know what we need to do now.
Marketing: S This gives you all the details?
Project Manager: Okay. right well.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: It's um we're we've still couple of minutes until our meeting's due to finish. But um I got a note saying that you two who are gonna be working together {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so bef before you all disappear off just
User Interface: Okay, I'll stay in here.
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} um.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: hold hold fire. Um.
User Interface: Does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check, or is that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I think, it's uh, yeah, I think, it's gonna be par part more of a profit sharing on the product.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we're buying fut I mean, we're getting futures in the company {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, I think i I think that's I think that's the way it's gonna happen at the moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So we really have a incentive to make this remote work.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: I'd like to share in the coffee machine profits, because that's really doing well.
Project Manager: I want a share in the space rocket. Did you {gap} see that this k that this company {gap} we've made a spaceship.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: This company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah, we're definitely not in the money making department.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: Well I I did notice looking at {disfmarker} I mean, they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the R_R_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I mean, if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page, it's not obvious.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: R_R_. Well it is to us, because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine, but it's {disfmarker} doesn't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it's just sil silver and black.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's true.
Project Manager: And the spaceship doesn't have the R_ {vocalsound} {gap} have a massive R_ and R_ down the side of it
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} I still want one. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Um I've just had a sign flashing up saying, finish the meeting.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Right, well, I guess that's us.
Project Manager: Yeah. It's not telling {disfmarker} it's not saying do anything in particular just yet. So maybe you should go back to your own offices.
User Interface: Okay. Right.
Industrial Designer: Are we taking these off?
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, it says you two {disfmarker} | They discussed the energy source, which can be a basic battery, a hand dynamo, a kinetic provision of energy like that on watches, or a combination of battery and solar power. Each kind of energy source has its own advantages and disadvantages. The basic battery costs less, and the kinetic provision of energy could be cooler and fancier. Regarding the design of the case, Industrial Designer claimed that it could be a general fact one, a curved one or a double curved one which is more ergonomic. Concerning the material of the case, Industrial Designer claimed that it could be plastic, latex, rubber, wood or titanium. At last they decided that the control is going to be a double curved rubber case, with rubber push-buttons and basic battery. | qmsum |
What did the group discuss about Marketing's presentation on three important marketing points that the team should pay attention to?
Marketing: Oh right okay. {vocalsound} I cover myself up. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I feel like Madonna with one of these on. I said I feel like Madonna with one of these on. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've always wanted one of these, I really have. {vocalsound} Where do you buy'em from? {vocalsound} They're {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right. Hello everybody.
User Interface: Hello.
Project Manager: Back again for another wonderful meeting.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is uh everyone ready?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Almost. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, we c we can hold on for a minute.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh my gosh. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I figured with the spam thing, if you can't beat it, join in. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm'kay.
Project Manager: Are you ready? Okay, right, well, I take it that you are all ready now.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um alright first off we'll just uh recap from our last meeting. Um {vocalsound} which was we got together just to basically decide on {disfmarker} well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and who we all are and stuff like that, mm get bit more of an idea together of what's going on. {vocalsound} Um what we are gonna talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing, now we know that it's a T_V_ remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh R_ and D_ for that, that's research and development for those that haven't heard that before,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: see I'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today. Um yeah, we're gonna hear your uh th three little presentations,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want.
User Interface: Hmm. {vocalsound} Do you have any preference uh of order?
Project Manager: Um I'd like to um hear
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: o I'd like to hear who's g who's on the um from from uh Catherine actually first. I want {disfmarker} what I'd like to hear about is uh if we've finally decided on um what sort of energy we're gonna be using and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Batteries.
User Interface: I think she is still finishing her {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no no, it's fine I'm just preparing.
Project Manager: It's just that {disfmarker} yeah, let's let's hear from you first.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Where is that thing?
User Interface: Okay, it's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's here.
Industrial Designer: Oh sorry, couldn't see.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Would that work?
Project Manager: Get yourself in position. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay, so that's me again.
Marketing: Ah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery, a hand dynamo which is {disfmarker} which was used uh in the fifties for torches, if you remember that kind of {disfmarker} which wouldn't be v wouldn't be v v
Project Manager: I don't think any of us remember the fifties.
User Interface: Is it like a crank thing or something {gap}.
Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. It wouldn't be very fancy.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can have a kinetic provision of energy, which is used on some watches these days. So if you have just a bit of gentle movement that {disfmarker} it will give it the energy to work.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Or you can use solar cells, but I'm not sure about that indoors, really, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, there's sometimes combinations, I mean, like calculators do combinations of battery with {disfmarker} but also using some solar power.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Do {gap} sol solar panel things, do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb?
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Does anybody know?
Industrial Designer: I dunno actually.
User Interface: Uh I think, it has to be on the on the solar energy, but I don't know.
Industrial Designer: I dunno. Um. Think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery, really.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh if we want something fancier, I think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: but I don't know if it's worth the cost. So we've got to discuss that.
Project Manager: Mm. Okay, jolly good.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} For the case of the remotes itself, um they can be a general case, which is just a flat one. You can have uh a curved one or a double curved one, if you know what I mean, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's a double curved one?
Industrial Designer: You know, kind of more ergonomic, that kind of suits the palm of your hand, that kind of thing.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um then the case material itself, so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex, uh rubber, wood, or titanium. And th for each of them you have uh cases where {disfmarker} for example titanium, you can't use it for {disfmarker} if you if we're choosing a double curved case, we can't choose titanium. And if we are choosing um solar cells then we can't choose latex for the case material, so we just have to take that into account. But if we're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything. And I think we discussed earlier on the R_ S_ I_ problem thing, so we could uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So that might be an idea of using the rubber,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but then it should, you know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Let's have a squeezable remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And also it doesn't break as easily maybe,
Project Manager: {gap} when a T_V_ programme's got one {gap}
Industrial Designer: I dunno {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: watching the match and {gap} your team's just lost, you can fuzz it across the room and it'll bounce off the wall back at you.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, I like that idea.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: So rubber would be {disfmarker} Okay.
Marketing: I think rubber's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Rubber, we're all we're all going {disfmarker} we're all liking that idea? You think you can market that?
Marketing: But after my after my fashion thing, I think you'll realise that rubber is more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ooh, we like rubber, ooh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh s so if d
Marketing: People. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: okay. And then there are the push-buttons, so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels, like you have on a mouse, um or you could have um L_C_D_, which gives you a display. Um scroll buttons, as well.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: So if you use a rubber double curved case, you must use rubber push-buttons. So if we're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case. Um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons.
Project Manager: Well, we're gonna go with {gap} I think we've decided that it's gonna be a rubber case so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So it's a constraint. Yeah, but is it a double curved one or not? {vocalsound} If it's not a double curved, then we've got the choice for the push-buttons, if it's a double curve, we've gotta go for rubber push-buttons. If that makes sense.
Project Manager: {gap} push buttons instead of the wheel?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}.
User Interface: If it's rubber, isn't it malleable anyway, {gap} it doesn't matter if it's double {disfmarker} I mean isn't a rubber case, mean it's completely flexed, I mean, it it flexes to whatever they want it to? Mean so what's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double {disfmarker} rubber double curved case? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} rubble double double. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No, but na le you see, you've got, okay, the energy that's one thing,
Project Manager: I'll have a Big Mac, please. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: then you have the case is uh, whether it's flat or curved. And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we don't care if it's rub rubber or not, but then we've decided that we going for rubber for the case material. So if we've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it's flat, single curved or double curved. And I'm just saying if it {disfmarker} if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go {disfmarker} I dunno why, but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons. So, either {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I dunno we just need to decide on the on the case.
Project Manager: Let's have rubber push buttons, hey.
User Interface: Okay. Go rubber. Go rubber the whole way.
Industrial Designer: Let's go crazy. {vocalsound} And then, do I have a last slide? Yes, I do. Um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be {disfmarker} so that's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um and the price that go with it with it, so the simple push-buttons are gonna be the cheapest. Uh if we get a scroll-wheel, that's a higher price range. If we get an advanced chip which is um used for the L_C_D_, the display thing, then that's even more expensive.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Simple, yeah. Chip on print. It's a bit {gap}. {vocalsound} Okay, uh what I'm not understanding here
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} is uh, okay, advanced chip on print, which I presume is like one P_C_B_ and that's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender?
Industrial Designer: {gap}. Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The infra-red. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Um what a what alternatives do we have to that? {vocalsound} Y um {vocalsound} what alternatives do we have to the chip on print?
Industrial Designer: Well, if if it's not chip on print then, I guess, you get different chip components, and you build them separately and doesn't include the infra-red. It's less expensive mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} so it sounds {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Technically speaking, it's not as advanced, but it does the job, too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, why would we not go for that? If it's something that's inside the the unit. {vocalsound} I it doesn't affects whether the customer's gonna buy it or not.
Industrial Designer: Fo It doesn't, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah.
Project Manager: Um we wanna go for an i i all {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So let's not go for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so long as it works,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. I agree.
Project Manager: you know. So let's not let's uh not bother with the chip on print.
Industrial Designer: So it's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah. S yeah, push buttons.
Marketing: What about the just developed uh sample sensor?
User Interface: I think push-buttons is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What about what?
Marketing: G there, the sample sensor, sample speaker thing.
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit?
Marketing: Mm, I dunno. Be cool.
Industrial Designer: It'd be it'd be cool, but they are saying they've just developed it,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Channel two. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm just guessing. But it's gonna be the most expensive option, probably and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: S
User Interface: Th the the {vocalsound} speech recognition um option is {disfmarker} it doesn't seem really very promising for us uh,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's not something that we wanna t go into with this product.
User Interface:'cause uh {disfmarker} The yeah the example that they're already using it for is with the coffee machine, where, basically, you can program a sample wi um {disfmarker} That when you say something it will give a response, and you program the response as well. Just uh clips of tha that you record yourself. So you can program your coffee-maker that when you say, good morning, to it it says, hello Rick, or whatever.
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But, I mean, it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hm.
User Interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the T_V_ on like, turn the T_V_ on, and i turns {disfmarker} comes on, but it's not that. It just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response.
Marketing: Oh, it just gives an answer.
User Interface: So, yeah, I mean, like what's the point of saying, Hello remote, I mean, hello, how how are you? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, then then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just if you are really lonely, maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thought I thought it was {disfmarker} when they said {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, if you're really lonely, it is it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I thought when they said, voice recognition, they meant um like,
Industrial Designer: Channel five. And then it switches on.
Marketing: channel five, and it will change.
User Interface: No, tha that w that w that would be more promising.
Marketing: Like you talk to it. Can I have channel five?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It it's just a remote that talks to you.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: Uh. {vocalsound} I mean to certain cues.
Marketing: Oh, then {gap} forget about it. Oh right okay.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so I'll go back, maybe, to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem, what we should choose. So for the energy source, do we go for the battery or the {disfmarker}
User Interface:'Kay. Yeah, I'm fine with the basic battery.
Project Manager: Basic battery.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: It's cheap, it's cheerful, it's worked, does work.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Cheaper option. Are you happy with that?
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So we'll go for the battery. Then the case, do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved?
Project Manager: We were go we were going with the late with the the R_S_I_ rubber, weren't we?
User Interface: Yeah, so we want it rub rubber double curved. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it will look like something like this.
Industrial Designer: Double?
Project Manager: The double whopper, please.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so then if we use double curved case, then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons,
Project Manager: Yep, but {disfmarker} we're going for the simple buttons.
User Interface: So rubber rubber keys, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that's fine?
Project Manager: And it's cheapest all round, it sounds kinda funky, and we can also market it
Industrial Designer: P
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: as i'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the R_ {disfmarker} people were getting the {disfmarker} complaining about R_S_I_, and this is anti-R_S_I_.
Marketing: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that's another marketing point that we can use.
Marketing: Well the rubber push-buttons {gap}. Don't you have to move your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But anything is gonna have buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Even if it's a jog wheel, it's still repetitive. You {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You see, you can still get {disfmarker} it does you still get repetitive strain injury, whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen.
Industrial Designer: That they don't. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's the v it's the fact that you are pressing the same {disfmarker} doing the same movement.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: It's not actually what you are doing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-R_S_I_ ps specific {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, the rubber's good.
User Interface: We're giving them a way to burn off steam, basically, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, so they can sit there and go like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Not that watching T_V_ should be that stressful.
Project Manager: And you know, yeah, you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah, I guess T_V_ can be stressful, yeah, if you're watching sports.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright, that's me done.
Project Manager: Okay, Gabriel. Let's um let's let's hear from you about the um it's {disfmarker} the interface.
User Interface: Alright. Alright. Yeah, some of what I have to say ties into what Catherine was just talking about.
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: Sorry.
User Interface: Okay, so I'm continuing with the user interface uh topic. And so basically I consulted with our manufacturing division. It sounded like Catherine was also speaking with them. Uh I also took uh Reissa's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um,'cause I think that's that's crucial as far as uh what keys we're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they're laid out.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products, uh like the coffee machine. So I already mentioned the speech recognition interface.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I guess, we we basically vetoed that idea. It's it's pointless.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh it's just a sample sensor sample output. It would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the T_V_. Uh so yeah, they they also give the uh {disfmarker} they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an M_P_ three player like iPod.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Um so we've already addressed that and I think that would actually be worse for something like R_S_I_ I mean you got that thumb movement that you're constantly doing.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Um the other suggestion,
Marketing: That does get annoying.
User Interface: and I I have a feeling that we're interested in in something more general, but they suggested uh, you know, going i a little bit into a a niche, like either gearing our remote towards kids, where you could have {gap} lot of colours um, the keys might be you know, funny or or {gap},
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: or uh something for the elderly, where the remote's very large and the buttons are very large and there's only a few buttons. But you know we can we can discuss this, but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general, but done well.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh {gap} um {disfmarker} So, the key layout and design are really crucial. You don't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um. And I didn't mention that we need a power button {gap} in our last {disfmarker} I can give you an example here of uh, {gap} good layout and bad layout
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh from our manufacturing department. So this would be an example of bad layout, where you have volume up and volume down, but they have a V_ on both of them, so uh
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: it's sort of confusing for the user. Uh this is the example of the giant remote that's impossible to lose.
Project Manager: Do we have an uh example of a good one? {gap} {vocalsound} Brilliant.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And for {disfmarker} something for kids. Yeah. Um.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And so, yeah, I th I think my personal preferences of {disfmarker} we've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um. Uh so I was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense. I think it should be more general.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I didn't I didn't think the spinning-wheel or the uh L_C_ display were were crucial for us. And, yeah, that's it for me.
Project Manager: Okay. Well let's um {disfmarker} so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team? The um {disfmarker} The the um the interface type we're going for {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we're {disfmarker} we're not gonna have any sort of display I think uh.
Project Manager: Just the simple s simple straight set of buttons.
User Interface: So, yeah, it's just gonna be just gonna be push-buttons. Um. I think we shall have a limited number of buttons,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: ideally, I mean a a power, channel up, channel down, volume up, volume down, and a numerical keypad.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh. And some sort of {disfmarker} it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I guess it's to the point where we need to decide about that.
Project Manager: Okay, and we're not {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Well now that we've decided on our {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} Are we gonna hav hav {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} are we d
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: have we decided on whether w we're gonna s supplement it with anything, you know, colours or particular gimmicky bits to it, we're not we're just gonna go for something {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um it seems like we wouldn't wanna make it too busy and too sort of gaudy,
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: but um {disfmarker} Yeah, I would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere, like maybe the R_R_ can be yellow, or something like that.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okey-dokey. Yeah, I don't have any other questions on this. Let's move over to {disfmarker}
User Interface: I I guess {vocalsound} the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before.
Project Manager: Yeah, sure.
User Interface: I mean,'cause uh s so if we wanna have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button.
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: But I think that should be {disfmarker} I mean um, I can speak with the button department, but uh I think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating.
Project Manager: Yeah, the button that just does that, yeah.
User Interface: So that should be simple.
Project Manager: Cool.
Marketing: Right. Well, I'm just basically letting you know what's happening in the markets
Project Manager: Mm yeah.
Marketing: and what the fashions are for next year. Um. So yes {vocalsound}, so from looking at this year's trends and fashions
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and also recent investigation that we've done in the remote control market, we have found that for the remote control market {vocalsound} these are like most important aspects like that we really need to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: which we've already probably discussed. Um {vocalsound} the most important aspect is look and feel. So the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already {disfmarker} that we already have. So it has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, why should people buy this when they're already got a remote that came with the T_V_?
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Exactly.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um second, uh it should be technologically innovative innovative. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's that mean?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Technologically it should be like um work, basically, I guess. It should work.
User Interface: Well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense,
Marketing: Should {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean have something that's little more technologically advanced than what's on the market.
Marketing: That's new.
Project Manager: Okay, now the trouble is is we've already decided that we're going with the stuff that works already, that's cheap.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I mean, these first two points we've already sort of gone away from,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface:'cause our rubber one is not fancy {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: I mean it's different, but I wouldn't say like a rubber remote is fancy. If that's what people want then we {disfmarker} maybe we're going in the wrong direction. And it's it's not technologically innovative either.
Project Manager: Maybe we could um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So, {gap} no loose {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: That's why I was thinking, Bluetooth,'cause if you like put up Bluetooth, and it's like a Bluetooth remote control, everybody's gonna like, oh,'cause Bluetooth is the in thing nowadays, like it really is {vocalsound}, like people {disfmarker} and um when it comes to marketing like that's what people go for, they don't really care whether, you know, at the end of the day whether it works properly or not.
Project Manager: Of course, they do.
Marketing: Well, they do, but it's like it's not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} One hundred per cent, that's your first thing, you go, oh I'm not gonna buy that,'cause I dunno if it works or not.
Marketing: Yeah, but it looks good. If it looks good and it's {disfmarker} it can just be there for decoration. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, well, what do you two think about this?
User Interface: So is is the advantage of Bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other
Marketing: But like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} I don't understand what m
User Interface: electronics?
Marketing: You could always insert, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's basically what it allows you to do,
Project Manager: Yeah,
User Interface: right?
Project Manager: and it {disfmarker} this is just gonna {gap} {disfmarker} all this is being used for is your television.
Marketing: Yeah, but, I mean, people like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It would {disfmarker} that would mean you'd need a television that has Bluetooth in it, which no no television does,
Marketing: Well, if you're looking at {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you {gap} looking at something that's going to be bought by people, you have to make it new, you have to make it state of the art.
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: does it? That would mean we'd have to make a television as well.
Industrial Designer: Bluetooth would, for example, enable you, I think, to um um connect {disfmarker} for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone, but your mobile phone is downstairs or something, you would get on your television you're being called by this person right now. Things like that.
Project Manager: No, that would be your telephone {gap} in with your television.
Industrial Designer: No i
User Interface: Yeah, the {disfmarker} that wouldn't be the remote so much,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah,
User Interface: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and i
Industrial Designer: No, but if you get Bluetooth on the remote, you'd be able to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah, the televi the television would have to be a Bluetooth compatible, basically.
Industrial Designer: I with the television, yeah. {gap} I was just trying to find an advantage. Wha what w what advantage would you get for the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Well, it doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: An and there is no there is no such thing
Marketing: Like it doesn't have to be, you know, Bluetooth, that was just an idea, but like it needs do something that, you know, is new. Whether it's a battery {disfmarker} it could be something really really minor, you know, like {disfmarker} but I think we are really keeping to what is already out there, and people've already seen it, people've already got it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: If we want something new, we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative.
Industrial Designer: Maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then. It's been done for watches, but I haven't seen that for remotes, yet.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Yeah, this {disfmarker} that's that's very good.
Marketing: And then you can market it. Never have to change a battery again. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Change the batteries ever again.
Project Manager: And and this is all tying in very nicely.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The fact that it's made out of this rubber, we can throw it about. Th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about, because it charges itself up by doing it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, well, and in little characters you say, yeah, but not too much. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes, so can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But yeah, by the squeezing it the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think, safety s
User Interface: Yeah, we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating {disfmarker} like the energy generator.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's a great idea. Well done.
Marketing: Yeah. Third most important aspect {vocalsound} uh is it's easy to use.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} we're all about that.
Marketing: And I think we've all um worked that out. Um okay, in the fashion, how it's supposed to look. Next year's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths, shoes and furniture. {vocalsound} So next year people will be buying {vocalsound}, I found this really funny {vocalsound}, you know, strawberry shaped chairs,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I wanna watch the pineapple channel. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Rubber things. {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} and as it's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy, so it's it's not quite spongy, but spongy, I would say is {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: Well spongy, that's where {gap}. Yeah, we're we're ahead of the game there.
User Interface: Yeah, that's great for us.
Marketing: yeah, so we're in.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And so personal {gap} what I was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel, while still keeping to the company's image, basically. So yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {gap}. I had to say {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: So we're moving in the right direction like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright, yeah, no, this i this is good,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so through all that we've {disfmarker} we go we're {disfmarker} right, we're gonna go go back to um going with the kinetic thing,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep.
User Interface: Yeah, that's great.
Project Manager: that's great, using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-R_S_I_ you can {disfmarker} as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself, you are charging the batteries {vocalsound},
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm.
Project Manager: and um I'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No vegetables.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know how we incorporate {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We don't have to follow every trend, I guess.
Marketing: Maybe make it like fruity colours or something.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Marketing: Some sort. Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: The power button could be like a big apple or something.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well yeah, but Apple would sue you for that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, this is true {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: They don they don't own {vocalsound} all images of apples. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} sued the Beatles so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, we'll make it a uh pomegranate, a big pomegranate.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, okay, it seems like the only thing that we haven't really finally um agreed on is its image. Like, yeah, we're we're saying no we don't want it to be fruit and vegetables, but we dunno what it should be,
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: or like are we going {disfmarker} yeah it looks slick, but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing?
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think, if it's rubber it needs to be
Project Manager: I mean you said earlier on i {vocalsound} it should be funky.
Marketing: different. I think, it's {disfmarker} it should be {disfmarker} I mean, what do you associate with rubber? You know like
Project Manager: {vocalsound} L keep it clean, keep it clean. {vocalsound}
Marketing: really different colours basically.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, sor I sorry, I used the wrong word, what do you associate with the mate the material {vocalsound} that material? {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um like I'm just thinking bright colours.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Bright natural colours, nothing too {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bright, but not too bright. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bright, but too {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink. Wanna make it different colours so {vocalsound} anybody can choo like like {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like the volume buttons should be the {disfmarker} all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that, do you mean?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah. And on the back of it have the logo.
Project Manager: Okay, what {gap}?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Sure.
Industrial Designer: Why not?
Project Manager: Okay. Tha
User Interface: The one thing I'm wondering about, I hope that we're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I mean we {disfmarker} that's we we {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean if somebody go goes into the store they're gonna see like three or four normal remotes, and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} This is the remote control tomato. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean {vocalsound} what are ninety per cent of people gonna take? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can say in this country, you'll get, you know, lots of people wanting something really funky and cool. Like {disfmarker} and kids will be walking in with their parents saying, Mummy I wanna buy that one.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And uh parents will see the will see the pro as well, because it's um like kids won't break it, it's not breakable if you throw it around.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Especially with younger kids, you know they can pick it up and and {disfmarker} Yeah. The only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, it's it's gotta be chew proof. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'm gonna write that down.
Marketing: So {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: so it's rea it's quite
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's quite like um user friendly
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and also for different families, like like family use as well, so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it, I think. Especially maybe younger girls if it's in pink they'll be like {gap} pink remote control for their room something.
Project Manager: So, what are you saying, maybe we should market it in different colours for different {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so we could do like the pink range, the blue range, the green range, the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: So like you walk in, you're like, oh I like that remote control, because it's so bright, and then, and then the shop assistant comes up and says, oh what colour would you like? and then they go like, oh I can choose the colour {vocalsound} wow. So it puts, I think, even the customer into more control over what they're buying instead of, you've got all colour it's either that or nothing. So they also get to pick. Well, personally I like walking into a shop and choosing a colour.
User Interface: Yeah I mean, that that seems to work well with for products like iPod,
Marketing: It's um {disfmarker}
User Interface: where, you know, you have a variety of colours, that people feel like they're customising it when they buy it, even, you know, just just by the fact of choosing.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah. Mm.
Industrial Designer: Although I'd be curious to see how many uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: D you've got the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You know, there are some colours that I wouldn I would never choose, and I would be curious how many people choose that colour.
Project Manager: Well that's that can be down to bit of market researching you know,
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: if that's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And produce less of the silly colours, maybe.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Alright. Well um, we'll {disfmarker} alright let's {disfmarker} what we're gonna aim to get together by the next meeting then um {vocalsound} is from you Catherine wi your y y you know you're gonna be working on the the look and feel design.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Um Gabriel, you're gonna be working on, you know {disfmarker} come up with the the user interface design. Then basically, you two are gonna be working together on this. You won't be going off to your separate offices.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Um and I think you are gonna get a chance to play with some clay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh right.
Project Manager: I think, yeah, it's gonna {vocalsound} you know,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: come up ki you know, be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas.'Cause at the moment, uh you know, it's it's hard.
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Project Manager: We were kinda going, yeah, it's gotta feel nice, it's gotta look cool and that it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you know now we can actually start, you know, s some sort of physical something or other.
User Interface: That sounds good.
Project Manager: Um and you're gonna be working on the product evaluation.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Evaluation.
Project Manager: Um. {vocalsound} And I {vocalsound} will be uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: talking to the bosses, basically, and uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh
Industrial Designer: Great.
Project Manager: that's it really. Keeping things t well, uh you know, ho hopefully uh keeping things together. Um. Yeah, that's {disfmarker} This is this is uh good. So we know for definite we know we've we've now got some definite things going on. We definitely know how it's powered,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: we definitely know that um it's gonna be a simple buttons, we're not gonna be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things, so we've we're keeping the costs down. It's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky. Don't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: People, you know, people are saying, oh, standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury, well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: It's supposed to fix it rather than cause it. Um. {gap} you know, we're gonna we we're gonna as a sort of extra something on it, you know what what extra things {disfmarker} are there extra things this product have? We'll look into this lock key
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: facility, although whether or not it happens, {vocalsound} or is possible, I don't know, but something to look into. Okay. I think that's um {disfmarker} well done everybody. Anyone have any uh any questions,
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: everyone know what they're doing?'Cause if you don't, you'll {disfmarker} I'm sure you'll soon get an e-mail about it.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm, I think we all know what we need to do now.
Marketing: S This gives you all the details?
Project Manager: Okay. right well.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: It's um we're we've still couple of minutes until our meeting's due to finish. But um I got a note saying that you two who are gonna be working together {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so bef before you all disappear off just
User Interface: Okay, I'll stay in here.
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} um.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: hold hold fire. Um.
User Interface: Does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check, or is that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I think, it's uh, yeah, I think, it's gonna be par part more of a profit sharing on the product.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we're buying fut I mean, we're getting futures in the company {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, I think i I think that's I think that's the way it's gonna happen at the moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So we really have a incentive to make this remote work.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: I'd like to share in the coffee machine profits, because that's really doing well.
Project Manager: I want a share in the space rocket. Did you {gap} see that this k that this company {gap} we've made a spaceship.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: This company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah, we're definitely not in the money making department.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: Well I I did notice looking at {disfmarker} I mean, they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the R_R_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I mean, if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page, it's not obvious.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: R_R_. Well it is to us, because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine, but it's {disfmarker} doesn't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it's just sil silver and black.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's true.
Project Manager: And the spaceship doesn't have the R_ {vocalsound} {gap} have a massive R_ and R_ down the side of it
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} I still want one. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Um I've just had a sign flashing up saying, finish the meeting.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Right, well, I guess that's us.
Project Manager: Yeah. It's not telling {disfmarker} it's not saying do anything in particular just yet. So maybe you should go back to your own offices.
User Interface: Okay. Right.
Industrial Designer: Are we taking these off?
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, it says you two {disfmarker} | Marketing made a presentation on important aspects the team need to pay attention to concerning the remote control market. A most important aspect is its look and feel, so that the remote control has to look and feel fancier to meet customer's demands. The second point is that it should be technologically innovative. And then they found that the decisions the team had already made on interface didn't match the first two points that Marketing had raised. Then they discussed the Bluetooth function which was turned down and on the kinetic provision of energy. User Interface suggested using squeezable rubber which could be an energy generator. The third point that Marketing raised was easy to use. She suggested that next year's fashion would be fruits and vegetables so the team had the idea of making some buttons into fruit shapes. Regarding the color of the control, Project Manager had the idea of marketing the control in different colors for different groups of people like iPod. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Marketing: Oh right okay. {vocalsound} I cover myself up. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I feel like Madonna with one of these on. I said I feel like Madonna with one of these on. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've always wanted one of these, I really have. {vocalsound} Where do you buy'em from? {vocalsound} They're {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right. Hello everybody.
User Interface: Hello.
Project Manager: Back again for another wonderful meeting.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is uh everyone ready?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Almost. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, we c we can hold on for a minute.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh my gosh. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I figured with the spam thing, if you can't beat it, join in. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm'kay.
Project Manager: Are you ready? Okay, right, well, I take it that you are all ready now.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um alright first off we'll just uh recap from our last meeting. Um {vocalsound} which was we got together just to basically decide on {disfmarker} well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and who we all are and stuff like that, mm get bit more of an idea together of what's going on. {vocalsound} Um what we are gonna talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing, now we know that it's a T_V_ remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh R_ and D_ for that, that's research and development for those that haven't heard that before,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: see I'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today. Um yeah, we're gonna hear your uh th three little presentations,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want.
User Interface: Hmm. {vocalsound} Do you have any preference uh of order?
Project Manager: Um I'd like to um hear
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: o I'd like to hear who's g who's on the um from from uh Catherine actually first. I want {disfmarker} what I'd like to hear about is uh if we've finally decided on um what sort of energy we're gonna be using and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Batteries.
User Interface: I think she is still finishing her {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no no, it's fine I'm just preparing.
Project Manager: It's just that {disfmarker} yeah, let's let's hear from you first.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Where is that thing?
User Interface: Okay, it's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's here.
Industrial Designer: Oh sorry, couldn't see.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Would that work?
Project Manager: Get yourself in position. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay, so that's me again.
Marketing: Ah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery, a hand dynamo which is {disfmarker} which was used uh in the fifties for torches, if you remember that kind of {disfmarker} which wouldn't be v wouldn't be v v
Project Manager: I don't think any of us remember the fifties.
User Interface: Is it like a crank thing or something {gap}.
Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. It wouldn't be very fancy.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can have a kinetic provision of energy, which is used on some watches these days. So if you have just a bit of gentle movement that {disfmarker} it will give it the energy to work.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Or you can use solar cells, but I'm not sure about that indoors, really, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well, there's sometimes combinations, I mean, like calculators do combinations of battery with {disfmarker} but also using some solar power.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Do {gap} sol solar panel things, do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb?
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Does anybody know?
Industrial Designer: I dunno actually.
User Interface: Uh I think, it has to be on the on the solar energy, but I don't know.
Industrial Designer: I dunno. Um. Think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery, really.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh if we want something fancier, I think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: but I don't know if it's worth the cost. So we've got to discuss that.
Project Manager: Mm. Okay, jolly good.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} For the case of the remotes itself, um they can be a general case, which is just a flat one. You can have uh a curved one or a double curved one, if you know what I mean, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's a double curved one?
Industrial Designer: You know, kind of more ergonomic, that kind of suits the palm of your hand, that kind of thing.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um then the case material itself, so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex, uh rubber, wood, or titanium. And th for each of them you have uh cases where {disfmarker} for example titanium, you can't use it for {disfmarker} if you if we're choosing a double curved case, we can't choose titanium. And if we are choosing um solar cells then we can't choose latex for the case material, so we just have to take that into account. But if we're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything. And I think we discussed earlier on the R_ S_ I_ problem thing, so we could uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So that might be an idea of using the rubber,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: but then it should, you know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Let's have a squeezable remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And also it doesn't break as easily maybe,
Project Manager: {gap} when a T_V_ programme's got one {gap}
Industrial Designer: I dunno {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: watching the match and {gap} your team's just lost, you can fuzz it across the room and it'll bounce off the wall back at you.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, I like that idea.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: So rubber would be {disfmarker} Okay.
Marketing: I think rubber's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Rubber, we're all we're all going {disfmarker} we're all liking that idea? You think you can market that?
Marketing: But after my after my fashion thing, I think you'll realise that rubber is more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ooh, we like rubber, ooh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh s so if d
Marketing: People. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: okay. And then there are the push-buttons, so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels, like you have on a mouse, um or you could have um L_C_D_, which gives you a display. Um scroll buttons, as well.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: So if you use a rubber double curved case, you must use rubber push-buttons. So if we're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case. Um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons.
Project Manager: Well, we're gonna go with {gap} I think we've decided that it's gonna be a rubber case so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So it's a constraint. Yeah, but is it a double curved one or not? {vocalsound} If it's not a double curved, then we've got the choice for the push-buttons, if it's a double curve, we've gotta go for rubber push-buttons. If that makes sense.
Project Manager: {gap} push buttons instead of the wheel?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}.
User Interface: If it's rubber, isn't it malleable anyway, {gap} it doesn't matter if it's double {disfmarker} I mean isn't a rubber case, mean it's completely flexed, I mean, it it flexes to whatever they want it to? Mean so what's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double {disfmarker} rubber double curved case? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} rubble double double. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No, but na le you see, you've got, okay, the energy that's one thing,
Project Manager: I'll have a Big Mac, please. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: then you have the case is uh, whether it's flat or curved. And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we don't care if it's rub rubber or not, but then we've decided that we going for rubber for the case material. So if we've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it's flat, single curved or double curved. And I'm just saying if it {disfmarker} if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go {disfmarker} I dunno why, but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons. So, either {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I dunno we just need to decide on the on the case.
Project Manager: Let's have rubber push buttons, hey.
User Interface: Okay. Go rubber. Go rubber the whole way.
Industrial Designer: Let's go crazy. {vocalsound} And then, do I have a last slide? Yes, I do. Um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be {disfmarker} so that's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um and the price that go with it with it, so the simple push-buttons are gonna be the cheapest. Uh if we get a scroll-wheel, that's a higher price range. If we get an advanced chip which is um used for the L_C_D_, the display thing, then that's even more expensive.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Simple, yeah. Chip on print. It's a bit {gap}. {vocalsound} Okay, uh what I'm not understanding here
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} is uh, okay, advanced chip on print, which I presume is like one P_C_B_ and that's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender?
Industrial Designer: {gap}. Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The infra-red. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right. Um what a what alternatives do we have to that? {vocalsound} Y um {vocalsound} what alternatives do we have to the chip on print?
Industrial Designer: Well, if if it's not chip on print then, I guess, you get different chip components, and you build them separately and doesn't include the infra-red. It's less expensive mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} so it sounds {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Technically speaking, it's not as advanced, but it does the job, too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, why would we not go for that? If it's something that's inside the the unit. {vocalsound} I it doesn't affects whether the customer's gonna buy it or not.
Industrial Designer: Fo It doesn't, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah.
Project Manager: Um we wanna go for an i i all {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So let's not go for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so long as it works,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. I agree.
Project Manager: you know. So let's not let's uh not bother with the chip on print.
Industrial Designer: So it's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah. S yeah, push buttons.
Marketing: What about the just developed uh sample sensor?
User Interface: I think push-buttons is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What about what?
Marketing: G there, the sample sensor, sample speaker thing.
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit?
Marketing: Mm, I dunno. Be cool.
Industrial Designer: It'd be it'd be cool, but they are saying they've just developed it,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Channel two. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm just guessing. But it's gonna be the most expensive option, probably and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: S
User Interface: Th the the {vocalsound} speech recognition um option is {disfmarker} it doesn't seem really very promising for us uh,
Project Manager: Yeah. It's not something that we wanna t go into with this product.
User Interface:'cause uh {disfmarker} The yeah the example that they're already using it for is with the coffee machine, where, basically, you can program a sample wi um {disfmarker} That when you say something it will give a response, and you program the response as well. Just uh clips of tha that you record yourself. So you can program your coffee-maker that when you say, good morning, to it it says, hello Rick, or whatever.
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But, I mean, it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hm.
User Interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the T_V_ on like, turn the T_V_ on, and i turns {disfmarker} comes on, but it's not that. It just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response.
Marketing: Oh, it just gives an answer.
User Interface: So, yeah, I mean, like what's the point of saying, Hello remote, I mean, hello, how how are you? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh, then then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just if you are really lonely, maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thought I thought it was {disfmarker} when they said {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, if you're really lonely, it is it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I thought when they said, voice recognition, they meant um like,
Industrial Designer: Channel five. And then it switches on.
Marketing: channel five, and it will change.
User Interface: No, tha that w that w that would be more promising.
Marketing: Like you talk to it. Can I have channel five?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It it's just a remote that talks to you.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: Uh. {vocalsound} I mean to certain cues.
Marketing: Oh, then {gap} forget about it. Oh right okay.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so I'll go back, maybe, to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem, what we should choose. So for the energy source, do we go for the battery or the {disfmarker}
User Interface:'Kay. Yeah, I'm fine with the basic battery.
Project Manager: Basic battery.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: It's cheap, it's cheerful, it's worked, does work.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Cheaper option. Are you happy with that?
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay. So we'll go for the battery. Then the case, do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved?
Project Manager: We were go we were going with the late with the the R_S_I_ rubber, weren't we?
User Interface: Yeah, so we want it rub rubber double curved. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it will look like something like this.
Industrial Designer: Double?
Project Manager: The double whopper, please.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so then if we use double curved case, then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons,
Project Manager: Yep, but {disfmarker} we're going for the simple buttons.
User Interface: So rubber rubber keys, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and that's fine?
Project Manager: And it's cheapest all round, it sounds kinda funky, and we can also market it
Industrial Designer: P
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: as i'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the R_ {disfmarker} people were getting the {disfmarker} complaining about R_S_I_, and this is anti-R_S_I_.
Marketing: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that's another marketing point that we can use.
Marketing: Well the rubber push-buttons {gap}. Don't you have to move your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But anything is gonna have buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Even if it's a jog wheel, it's still repetitive. You {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You see, you can still get {disfmarker} it does you still get repetitive strain injury, whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen.
Industrial Designer: That they don't. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's the v it's the fact that you are pressing the same {disfmarker} doing the same movement.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: It's not actually what you are doing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-R_S_I_ ps specific {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, the rubber's good.
User Interface: We're giving them a way to burn off steam, basically, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, so they can sit there and go like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Not that watching T_V_ should be that stressful.
Project Manager: And you know, yeah, you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah, I guess T_V_ can be stressful, yeah, if you're watching sports.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright, that's me done.
Project Manager: Okay, Gabriel. Let's um let's let's hear from you about the um it's {disfmarker} the interface.
User Interface: Alright. Alright. Yeah, some of what I have to say ties into what Catherine was just talking about.
Project Manager: Great.
Industrial Designer: Sorry.
User Interface: Okay, so I'm continuing with the user interface uh topic. And so basically I consulted with our manufacturing division. It sounded like Catherine was also speaking with them. Uh I also took uh Reissa's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um,'cause I think that's that's crucial as far as uh what keys we're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they're laid out.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products, uh like the coffee machine. So I already mentioned the speech recognition interface.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I guess, we we basically vetoed that idea. It's it's pointless.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh it's just a sample sensor sample output. It would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the T_V_. Uh so yeah, they they also give the uh {disfmarker} they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an M_P_ three player like iPod.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Um so we've already addressed that and I think that would actually be worse for something like R_S_I_ I mean you got that thumb movement that you're constantly doing.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Um the other suggestion,
Marketing: That does get annoying.
User Interface: and I I have a feeling that we're interested in in something more general, but they suggested uh, you know, going i a little bit into a a niche, like either gearing our remote towards kids, where you could have {gap} lot of colours um, the keys might be you know, funny or or {gap},
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: or uh something for the elderly, where the remote's very large and the buttons are very large and there's only a few buttons. But you know we can we can discuss this, but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general, but done well.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh {gap} um {disfmarker} So, the key layout and design are really crucial. You don't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um. And I didn't mention that we need a power button {gap} in our last {disfmarker} I can give you an example here of uh, {gap} good layout and bad layout
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh from our manufacturing department. So this would be an example of bad layout, where you have volume up and volume down, but they have a V_ on both of them, so uh
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: it's sort of confusing for the user. Uh this is the example of the giant remote that's impossible to lose.
Project Manager: Do we have an uh example of a good one? {gap} {vocalsound} Brilliant.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And for {disfmarker} something for kids. Yeah. Um.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And so, yeah, I th I think my personal preferences of {disfmarker} we've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um. Uh so I was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense. I think it should be more general.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I didn't I didn't think the spinning-wheel or the uh L_C_ display were were crucial for us. And, yeah, that's it for me.
Project Manager: Okay. Well let's um {disfmarker} so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team? The um {disfmarker} The the um the interface type we're going for {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we're {disfmarker} we're not gonna have any sort of display I think uh.
Project Manager: Just the simple s simple straight set of buttons.
User Interface: So, yeah, it's just gonna be just gonna be push-buttons. Um. I think we shall have a limited number of buttons,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: ideally, I mean a a power, channel up, channel down, volume up, volume down, and a numerical keypad.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh. And some sort of {disfmarker} it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I guess it's to the point where we need to decide about that.
Project Manager: Okay, and we're not {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Well now that we've decided on our {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} Are we gonna hav hav {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} are we d
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: have we decided on whether w we're gonna s supplement it with anything, you know, colours or particular gimmicky bits to it, we're not we're just gonna go for something {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um it seems like we wouldn't wanna make it too busy and too sort of gaudy,
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: but um {disfmarker} Yeah, I would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere, like maybe the R_R_ can be yellow, or something like that.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okey-dokey. Yeah, I don't have any other questions on this. Let's move over to {disfmarker}
User Interface: I I guess {vocalsound} the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before.
Project Manager: Yeah, sure.
User Interface: I mean,'cause uh s so if we wanna have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button.
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: But I think that should be {disfmarker} I mean um, I can speak with the button department, but uh I think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating.
Project Manager: Yeah, the button that just does that, yeah.
User Interface: So that should be simple.
Project Manager: Cool.
Marketing: Right. Well, I'm just basically letting you know what's happening in the markets
Project Manager: Mm yeah.
Marketing: and what the fashions are for next year. Um. So yes {vocalsound}, so from looking at this year's trends and fashions
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and also recent investigation that we've done in the remote control market, we have found that for the remote control market {vocalsound} these are like most important aspects like that we really need to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: which we've already probably discussed. Um {vocalsound} the most important aspect is look and feel. So the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already {disfmarker} that we already have. So it has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, why should people buy this when they're already got a remote that came with the T_V_?
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Exactly.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um second, uh it should be technologically innovative innovative. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's that mean?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Technologically it should be like um work, basically, I guess. It should work.
User Interface: Well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense,
Marketing: Should {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean have something that's little more technologically advanced than what's on the market.
Marketing: That's new.
Project Manager: Okay, now the trouble is is we've already decided that we're going with the stuff that works already, that's cheap.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I mean, these first two points we've already sort of gone away from,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface:'cause our rubber one is not fancy {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: I mean it's different, but I wouldn't say like a rubber remote is fancy. If that's what people want then we {disfmarker} maybe we're going in the wrong direction. And it's it's not technologically innovative either.
Project Manager: Maybe we could um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So, {gap} no loose {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: That's why I was thinking, Bluetooth,'cause if you like put up Bluetooth, and it's like a Bluetooth remote control, everybody's gonna like, oh,'cause Bluetooth is the in thing nowadays, like it really is {vocalsound}, like people {disfmarker} and um when it comes to marketing like that's what people go for, they don't really care whether, you know, at the end of the day whether it works properly or not.
Project Manager: Of course, they do.
Marketing: Well, they do, but it's like it's not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} One hundred per cent, that's your first thing, you go, oh I'm not gonna buy that,'cause I dunno if it works or not.
Marketing: Yeah, but it looks good. If it looks good and it's {disfmarker} it can just be there for decoration. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, well, what do you two think about this?
User Interface: So is is the advantage of Bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other
Marketing: But like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} I don't understand what m
User Interface: electronics?
Marketing: You could always insert, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, that's basically what it allows you to do,
Project Manager: Yeah,
User Interface: right?
Project Manager: and it {disfmarker} this is just gonna {gap} {disfmarker} all this is being used for is your television.
Marketing: Yeah, but, I mean, people like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It would {disfmarker} that would mean you'd need a television that has Bluetooth in it, which no no television does,
Marketing: Well, if you're looking at {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you {gap} looking at something that's going to be bought by people, you have to make it new, you have to make it state of the art.
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: does it? That would mean we'd have to make a television as well.
Industrial Designer: Bluetooth would, for example, enable you, I think, to um um connect {disfmarker} for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone, but your mobile phone is downstairs or something, you would get on your television you're being called by this person right now. Things like that.
Project Manager: No, that would be your telephone {gap} in with your television.
Industrial Designer: No i
User Interface: Yeah, the {disfmarker} that wouldn't be the remote so much,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah,
User Interface: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and i
Industrial Designer: No, but if you get Bluetooth on the remote, you'd be able to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah, the televi the television would have to be a Bluetooth compatible, basically.
Industrial Designer: I with the television, yeah. {gap} I was just trying to find an advantage. Wha what w what advantage would you get for the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Well, it doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: An and there is no there is no such thing
Marketing: Like it doesn't have to be, you know, Bluetooth, that was just an idea, but like it needs do something that, you know, is new. Whether it's a battery {disfmarker} it could be something really really minor, you know, like {disfmarker} but I think we are really keeping to what is already out there, and people've already seen it, people've already got it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: If we want something new, we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative.
Industrial Designer: Maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then. It's been done for watches, but I haven't seen that for remotes, yet.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Yeah, this {disfmarker} that's that's very good.
Marketing: And then you can market it. Never have to change a battery again. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Change the batteries ever again.
Project Manager: And and this is all tying in very nicely.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The fact that it's made out of this rubber, we can throw it about. Th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about, because it charges itself up by doing it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, well, and in little characters you say, yeah, but not too much. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes, so can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But yeah, by the squeezing it the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think, safety s
User Interface: Yeah, we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating {disfmarker} like the energy generator.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's a great idea. Well done.
Marketing: Yeah. Third most important aspect {vocalsound} uh is it's easy to use.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} we're all about that.
Marketing: And I think we've all um worked that out. Um okay, in the fashion, how it's supposed to look. Next year's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths, shoes and furniture. {vocalsound} So next year people will be buying {vocalsound}, I found this really funny {vocalsound}, you know, strawberry shaped chairs,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I wanna watch the pineapple channel. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Rubber things. {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} and as it's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy, so it's it's not quite spongy, but spongy, I would say is {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: Well spongy, that's where {gap}. Yeah, we're we're ahead of the game there.
User Interface: Yeah, that's great for us.
Marketing: yeah, so we're in.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And so personal {gap} what I was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel, while still keeping to the company's image, basically. So yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {gap}. I had to say {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: So we're moving in the right direction like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright, yeah, no, this i this is good,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so through all that we've {disfmarker} we go we're {disfmarker} right, we're gonna go go back to um going with the kinetic thing,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep.
User Interface: Yeah, that's great.
Project Manager: that's great, using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-R_S_I_ you can {disfmarker} as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself, you are charging the batteries {vocalsound},
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm.
Project Manager: and um I'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No vegetables.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't know how we incorporate {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We don't have to follow every trend, I guess.
Marketing: Maybe make it like fruity colours or something.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Marketing: Some sort. Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: The power button could be like a big apple or something.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well yeah, but Apple would sue you for that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, this is true {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: They don they don't own {vocalsound} all images of apples. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} sued the Beatles so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, we'll make it a uh pomegranate, a big pomegranate.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, okay, it seems like the only thing that we haven't really finally um agreed on is its image. Like, yeah, we're we're saying no we don't want it to be fruit and vegetables, but we dunno what it should be,
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: or like are we going {disfmarker} yeah it looks slick, but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing?
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think, if it's rubber it needs to be
Project Manager: I mean you said earlier on i {vocalsound} it should be funky.
Marketing: different. I think, it's {disfmarker} it should be {disfmarker} I mean, what do you associate with rubber? You know like
Project Manager: {vocalsound} L keep it clean, keep it clean. {vocalsound}
Marketing: really different colours basically.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, sor I sorry, I used the wrong word, what do you associate with the mate the material {vocalsound} that material? {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um like I'm just thinking bright colours.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Bright natural colours, nothing too {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bright, but not too bright. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bright, but too {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink. Wanna make it different colours so {vocalsound} anybody can choo like like {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like the volume buttons should be the {disfmarker} all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that, do you mean?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah. And on the back of it have the logo.
Project Manager: Okay, what {gap}?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Sure.
Industrial Designer: Why not?
Project Manager: Okay. Tha
User Interface: The one thing I'm wondering about, I hope that we're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I mean we {disfmarker} that's we we {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean if somebody go goes into the store they're gonna see like three or four normal remotes, and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} This is the remote control tomato. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean {vocalsound} what are ninety per cent of people gonna take? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can say in this country, you'll get, you know, lots of people wanting something really funky and cool. Like {disfmarker} and kids will be walking in with their parents saying, Mummy I wanna buy that one.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And uh parents will see the will see the pro as well, because it's um like kids won't break it, it's not breakable if you throw it around.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Especially with younger kids, you know they can pick it up and and {disfmarker} Yeah. The only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well, it's it's gotta be chew proof. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'm gonna write that down.
Marketing: So {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: so it's rea it's quite
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's quite like um user friendly
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and also for different families, like like family use as well, so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it, I think. Especially maybe younger girls if it's in pink they'll be like {gap} pink remote control for their room something.
Project Manager: So, what are you saying, maybe we should market it in different colours for different {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so we could do like the pink range, the blue range, the green range, the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: So like you walk in, you're like, oh I like that remote control, because it's so bright, and then, and then the shop assistant comes up and says, oh what colour would you like? and then they go like, oh I can choose the colour {vocalsound} wow. So it puts, I think, even the customer into more control over what they're buying instead of, you've got all colour it's either that or nothing. So they also get to pick. Well, personally I like walking into a shop and choosing a colour.
User Interface: Yeah I mean, that that seems to work well with for products like iPod,
Marketing: It's um {disfmarker}
User Interface: where, you know, you have a variety of colours, that people feel like they're customising it when they buy it, even, you know, just just by the fact of choosing.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah. Mm.
Industrial Designer: Although I'd be curious to see how many uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: D you've got the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You know, there are some colours that I wouldn I would never choose, and I would be curious how many people choose that colour.
Project Manager: Well that's that can be down to bit of market researching you know,
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: if that's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And produce less of the silly colours, maybe.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Alright. Well um, we'll {disfmarker} alright let's {disfmarker} what we're gonna aim to get together by the next meeting then um {vocalsound} is from you Catherine wi your y y you know you're gonna be working on the the look and feel design.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Um Gabriel, you're gonna be working on, you know {disfmarker} come up with the the user interface design. Then basically, you two are gonna be working together on this. You won't be going off to your separate offices.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Um and I think you are gonna get a chance to play with some clay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh right.
Project Manager: I think, yeah, it's gonna {vocalsound} you know,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: come up ki you know, be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas.'Cause at the moment, uh you know, it's it's hard.
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Project Manager: We were kinda going, yeah, it's gotta feel nice, it's gotta look cool and that it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you know now we can actually start, you know, s some sort of physical something or other.
User Interface: That sounds good.
Project Manager: Um and you're gonna be working on the product evaluation.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Evaluation.
Project Manager: Um. {vocalsound} And I {vocalsound} will be uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: talking to the bosses, basically, and uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh
Industrial Designer: Great.
Project Manager: that's it really. Keeping things t well, uh you know, ho hopefully uh keeping things together. Um. Yeah, that's {disfmarker} This is this is uh good. So we know for definite we know we've we've now got some definite things going on. We definitely know how it's powered,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: we definitely know that um it's gonna be a simple buttons, we're not gonna be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things, so we've we're keeping the costs down. It's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky. Don't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: People, you know, people are saying, oh, standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury, well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: It's supposed to fix it rather than cause it. Um. {gap} you know, we're gonna we we're gonna as a sort of extra something on it, you know what what extra things {disfmarker} are there extra things this product have? We'll look into this lock key
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: facility, although whether or not it happens, {vocalsound} or is possible, I don't know, but something to look into. Okay. I think that's um {disfmarker} well done everybody. Anyone have any uh any questions,
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: everyone know what they're doing?'Cause if you don't, you'll {disfmarker} I'm sure you'll soon get an e-mail about it.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm, I think we all know what we need to do now.
Marketing: S This gives you all the details?
Project Manager: Okay. right well.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: It's um we're we've still couple of minutes until our meeting's due to finish. But um I got a note saying that you two who are gonna be working together {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so bef before you all disappear off just
User Interface: Okay, I'll stay in here.
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} um.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: hold hold fire. Um.
User Interface: Does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check, or is that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I think, it's uh, yeah, I think, it's gonna be par part more of a profit sharing on the product.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we're buying fut I mean, we're getting futures in the company {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, I think i I think that's I think that's the way it's gonna happen at the moment. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So we really have a incentive to make this remote work.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: I'd like to share in the coffee machine profits, because that's really doing well.
Project Manager: I want a share in the space rocket. Did you {gap} see that this k that this company {gap} we've made a spaceship.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: This company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah, we're definitely not in the money making department.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: Well I I did notice looking at {disfmarker} I mean, they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the R_R_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I mean, if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page, it's not obvious.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: R_R_. Well it is to us, because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine, but it's {disfmarker} doesn't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it's just sil silver and black.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's true.
Project Manager: And the spaceship doesn't have the R_ {vocalsound} {gap} have a massive R_ and R_ down the side of it
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} I still want one. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Um I've just had a sign flashing up saying, finish the meeting.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Right, well, I guess that's us.
Project Manager: Yeah. It's not telling {disfmarker} it's not saying do anything in particular just yet. So maybe you should go back to your own offices.
User Interface: Okay. Right.
Industrial Designer: Are we taking these off?
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, it says you two {disfmarker} | This meeting is mainly about three presentations from three team members to talk about what the team is supposed to be doing. First, it was the Industrial Designer's presentation on energy source and case material; then, User Interface introduced potential buttons, the layout design, and the color of the remote control; and at last, Marketing made a presentation on three important marketing points that the team should pay attention to, which are fancy appearance, innovative technology and user-friendliness. Various discussions went on among team members concerning their presentations. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Good morning everybody.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Good morning. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good morning.
Marketing: Good morning.
Project Manager: So, we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television. And the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly. So people can {gap} can use it without any any problem.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, I think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh
User Interface: Mm. B did you send us an email about this?
Project Manager: Uh, not yet,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but if you want {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, we we received an email about this uh d designs. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you want do you want me to send you a mail?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Ah it's Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or you can put it in the shared folder.
User Interface: Yeah, you see the email? You {gap} email. The v very {disfmarker} no, no the first one.
Marketing: No, I didn't get it.
User Interface: It's inside.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: This one.
User Interface: No, no.
Marketing: No.
User Interface: The third one. Oh, you didn't get anything.
Marketing: No, {gap}.
User Interface: It's strange. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Mm. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: I got an email about the dis about the discussion. Yeah.
Project Manager: You get email, {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno from who.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, from the account manager.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} From the account manager. You have received the same email, right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I think it's for your guys to {vocalsound} how to design it all the aspects so you need that information.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think so.
User Interface: Yeah, so each of us has a role to do.
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: S
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think {gap} assign your uh roles.
User Interface: In each {disfmarker}
Project Manager: For each for each one.
User Interface: We already have our role.
Marketing: For each person, yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}'Kay, we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So there are {disfmarker} so we have three {disfmarker}
User Interface: So there are three kinds of designs, that's all.
Project Manager: f yeah. We have functional design, conceptual design, and detail design.
User Interface: Okay, alright. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, who will be the the responsible for the functional design? Any any volunteer?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we {disfmarker} in our mail we received from the account manager.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh
User Interface: I'm doing the interface.
Project Manager: You are doing th
Industrial Designer: No, I'm doing the interface. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: Are you using the {disfmarker} you are doing the in {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I I'm I'm {disfmarker} Well, maybe we have {disfmarker} okay so I {gap} industrial design. It was a little confusion about my uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but it's alright.
Project Manager: Okay, I'll for industrial design.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. And and you {disfmarker} Norman?
User Interface: Mm? Um working on i. {vocalsound} User interface. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: User.
Project Manager: And {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, I'm into marketing.
Project Manager: {gap} doing the marketing.
Marketing: {gap} yeah nothing much in the project.
Project Manager: Nothing related here to the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Marketing in this design.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: A design is basically for industrial design and the user interface.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You see the second mail? Yeah, it's inside. Go down. Appendix.
Marketing: Yeah, this is {gap}.
User Interface: See there's a role for everybody.
Marketing: Yeah, that's right,
User Interface: Even for the marketing.
Marketing: first {gap}. {gap} us user define.
Project Manager: Next {gap}.
User Interface: But look at your role, your marketing role.
Marketing: There's a trend watching.
Project Manager: I don't know.
User Interface: Yeah, that's your role.
Project Manager: I {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Well, I think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and what are your ideas about the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: About the design or {disfmarker} Maybe we'll discuss this later, no?
Industrial Designer: Well, w we want to have a new re remote control for for T_V_ distribution I guess.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So we have to {vocalsound} plan how how it would be developed and uh
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: how we can make it work {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: I mean working remotes we already have. This will be something different from the other remotes {disfmarker} remote controls.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What we we have to keep in mind the {disfmarker} these characteristics.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I dunno I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And of course it should not be very costly.
Marketing: Yeah, that's right.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well I I think that Norman and I would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting, or
User Interface: Need to collect information. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: About the {disfmarker} about what?
User Interface: Um. {vocalsound} I I'm part of design, perhaps. Uh, what is most important in a {disfmarker} in a remote control? What is the most important function aspect? Uh.
Project Manager: You mean the external {gap} or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, you have to make it work.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah of g of course.
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's alright.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the {vocalsound} that's the big thing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, it should be easy to work with.
Project Manager: Yeah {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: We can think about an interface with uh well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh. We {disfmarker} maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface. You just tell the television I want {disfmarker} which channel.
Project Manager: You won't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or or you can say for example, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I want uh to list all the programme tonight. Y you know {gap}, instead of {gap} uh remote control it's doing the {disfmarker} some searching for you, so you don't have to look for the channel you want. Just say maybe I just want to press {disfmarker} I wanna have a button for all the movies tonight. Or a button for all the magazines, all the information {disfmarker} documentary tonight. And then you list a few, and I will choose from the list. So instead of pressing the channel number, I am choosing the programmes directly. Yeah, that's one way of uh making it useful.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: I I think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly.
User Interface: No, because {disfmarker} no,
Project Manager: S {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's not very {disfmarker} a lot. Th this information exists. For example you can get um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like s uh you you you say we can use speech.
User Interface: You can use uh {disfmarker} well for example {disfmarker} anything. {vocalsound} The {vocalsound} the idea of using speech to reduce the button, but uh and it's more natural. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh I dunno
Marketing: I'm a {disfmarker} okay.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: I mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand
Project Manager: In the hand.
Marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: If we are going to add a speech interface, I'm not sure with {gap} trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog
User Interface: Yeah. Yes, possible.
Marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that I think the T_V_ itself could have it.
User Interface: Yeah. But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: And I could talk to the T_V_ {disfmarker} television itself.
Project Manager: Except if if you are far from the T_V_.
Marketing: I need not have an {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean we have some {gap} or something, different technology but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This is {vocalsound} it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, yeah. But th the main idea I wanted to s I wanted to say is that um {vocalsound} there should be a function, instead of choosing the ch T_V_ channel, there's a option you can choose, either T_V_ channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme.
Industrial Designer: On the content.
Marketing: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah it's it's a good idea it's a good idea
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So it's more powerful. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but I I think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to {disfmarker}
User Interface: No. No, because you see now all the T_V_ programmes are available on the webs. They they are {disfmarker} they are {disfmarker} they are available in X_M_L_ format or whatever the format. We don't care. We just say that this are some content. We just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes. Some of the websites they already provide this service,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: so we can just use the service available. Download it uh to the {disfmarker} to this remote control.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: And then there's {disfmarker} there are only six buttons for six categories, or sev seven. The most there are only seven buttons. So I just choose the category one and you reuse the same button, for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want, so {vocalsound} you don't have to choose among hundred channels, if you have hundred channels, you just have six buttons, seven buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well I I I I think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the {disfmarker} Well channel programme or contents or {disfmarker} in an easy way, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This is {gap} good idea.
User Interface: Yeah. Ah, yes. So {gap}. Yeah. Yeah, so you don't have to display here, just display on the T_V_ screen, right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah in the dis display on the T_V_ screen
User Interface: Good idea {vocalsound}. Okay.
Industrial Designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f
User Interface: I think I think that will be revol revolutionary {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Because all the T_V_ uh the the remote control have all numbers, lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end. Yeah. {vocalsound} Alright. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. So {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So we have five minutes to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board.
Project Manager: Ah you can y you can you can use it if you {disfmarker} so, can we
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Five minutes.
Marketing: And another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay. Okay.
Marketing: So, I mean, if you're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh {vocalsound} some dark scene, the lights adapt themself.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: S
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: The lighting in the room changes.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, but we are designing just remote control.
Project Manager: You {disfmarker} it {gap}.
Marketing: I mean, we have a option in the remote control. If we want to have that option, you press that button in the remote.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Oh right so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay, do you want to have a conceptual remote control there, or you just want to put the function in?
Project Manager: Yeah. If if you you you can if you want you can use th the {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Please, Norman, draw uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Go on, draw something {gap}. {vocalsound} Mm.
Marketing: Oh, I'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel.
User Interface: Where is it?
Marketing: The lapel.
Project Manager: Or before the before the the design that says {gap}.
User Interface: Ah, okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Where where is it? Here.
Marketing: Yeah, that one.
Project Manager: Norman.
Marketing: Just plug it.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah, that's right.
Project Manager: Be before before writing you can uh sit and that says {gap} what we what we said
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: then after that you can you can use the {gap}. Yeah.
User Interface: Okay, alright. So so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content. Right? We agree on that, right?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Uh, uh first one is to uh {vocalsound} buttons i or it could be anything with {gap} buttons. Uh to choose uh content s or channels.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: So we have both. The user can choose w which one they want, right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, by content or by channel,
User Interface: By content or by channel.
Industrial Designer: it's a good idea.
User Interface: Choose by contents or by channels. And then what did we say just now? Other than this.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: And uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents.
User Interface: Okay, so technically how {disfmarker} the problems that {disfmarker} how to do it is to {disfmarker} how to get the content.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Challenge.
Industrial Designer: I think i it's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay. Content. Okay, so these we have to work it out. So this one of the problem. And uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think that's the {gap} the things to do
User Interface: The main thing.
Industrial Designer: and uh to uh reflect about it
User Interface: Okay. Alright. Alright, okay.
Industrial Designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting.
User Interface: So we are {disfmarker} we'll discuss it {disfmarker} we will get some information in the next meeting, so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer {gap}? That's the first aspect. Right. We will {gap} get information and then we'll come back in. {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Thank you everybody. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, we'll come.
Project Manager: So maybe we'll meet in maybe five minutes? And we'll discuss the other other aspects.
User Interface: Alright. Alright, okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Well thank you all {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you, mis {vocalsound} | Project Manager introduced a new remote control project for television. At first, team members got their roles. Then they discussed what had to be done to design a remote control which had different features. Priority will be given to the functions. For example, team members hoped that users could choose what they want not by channels but by contents. To implement the functions, they discussed a lot, such as speech recognition interface and navigation buttons. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about use cases.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm.
Project Manager: Okay. Good morning everybody. Um I'm glad you could all come. I'm really excited to start this team. Um I'm just gonna have a little PowerPoint presentation for us, for our kick-off meeting. My name is Rose Lindgren. I I'll be the Project Manager. Um our agenda today is we are gonna do a little opening and then I'm gonna talk a little bit about the project, then we'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit, including a tool training exercise. And then we'll move into the project plan, do a little discussion and close, since we only have twenty five minutes. First of all our project aim. Um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about, it needs to be original, trendy and user-friendly. I'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those. Um so we're gonna divide us up into three {vocalsound} compa three parts. First the functional design which will be uh first we'll do individual work, come into a meeting, the conceptional design, individual work and a meeting, and then the detailed design, individual work and a meeting. So that we'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating. Okay, we're gonna get to know each other a little bit. So um, what we're gonna do is start off with um let's start off with Amina. Um Alima,
Industrial Designer: Alima.
Project Manager: sorry, Alima.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um we're gonna do a little tool training, so we are gonna work with that whiteboard behind you. Um introduce yourself, um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Um I don't know which one of these I have to bring with me.
Project Manager: Probably both.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right, so, I'm supposed to draw my favourite animal. I have no drawing skills whatsoever. But uh let's see, introduce myself. My name is Alima Bucciantini. Um I'm from the state of Maine in the US. I'm doing nationalism studies, blah, blah, blah, and I have no artistic talents.
Project Manager: How do you spell your name?
Industrial Designer: A_ L_ I_ M_ A_.
Project Manager: Thanks.
Industrial Designer: Oh, and I guess I'm the Industrial Designer on this project. So let's see if I can get
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: um here. I will draw a little turtle for you all. Not necessarily'cause it's my absolute favourite animal, but just that I think they're drawable. And you have the pretty little shell going on. Some little eyes. Happy. There you go. That's a turtle.
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: So what are your favourite characteristics?
Industrial Designer: Um. I I like the whole having a shell thing.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: It's quite cool carry your home around where you go, um quite decorative little animals, they can swim, they can, they're very adaptable, they carry everything they need with them, um and they're easy to draw.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Excellent.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Shall we just go around the table?
User Interface: Uh Okay. Well, my name is Iain uh
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: and I'm the User Interface Designer for the project. Um. And I'll try and draw my favourite animal.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No,
User Interface: I'll {disfmarker} I should leave that one on there
Industrial Designer: you can erase the turtle,
User Interface: shouldn't I {vocalsound} before I callously rub it off.
Industrial Designer: it's alright.
Project Manager: Might be nice to have them all up there at same time.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I'm not gonna draw it quite to scale um.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Is that at least identifiable?
Industrial Designer: Snake.
Marketing: Well.
Project Manager: Em
Industrial Designer: Well,
User Interface: It's a whale {vocalsound}, yes.
Industrial Designer: snake? {vocalsound} It's w {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks.
Marketing: Oh my god, it's better than what I'm gonna be able to do.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um and, yeah, the reason I like whales is'cause uh they're {disfmarker} well, first of all they're quite intelligent um and also they're they're kind of mysterious, like we don't really know much about them or or understand how they work, how they form groups. And I just find them interesting animals.
Marketing: Take my contraptions with me. Alright, I'm Jessy. I'm from around D_C_ ish sort of in the U_S_. And we're gonna keep the deep sea sort of theme going on, {gap} animal. Don't really know how to draw this. Just where can I {disfmarker} Mm. Mm. Maybe if I do the water,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but how? Sort of give an idea. {vocalsound} I have no idea how one would explain this. Mm maybe with some whiskers. Briefly, it's supposed to be a seal.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can imagine it in the water. I like them, because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time. Not gonna try and pretend like I can get any better than that. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm'kay. Mm'kay? I'm Rose and I'm Project Manager, {vocalsound} from California. Um. Hmm. {vocalsound} S {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh,
Marketing: It's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it.
Industrial Designer: a cat.
Project Manager: Um it's actually a coyote.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Let's see. Let's see,
Industrial Designer: Right.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's impressive.
Project Manager: let's give it a little bit of a snout, I don't know, some teeth.
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's pretty impressive.
User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh dear. {vocalsound} Yes.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I live um I live right across the street from an open space in California. We have coyotes howl all the time. So I really enjoy their their singing, you they're really beautiful animals. Mm. {vocalsound} Okay um, moving on to slightly more serious stuff. We're gonna talk about project finances. Um we have a couple {vocalsound} we'd like to sell it for about twenty five Euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million Euro um from our sales and because this is such {disfmarker} this is for television it's a {disfmarker} we have a market range of Internet, like it's an international market range, we don't have to worry about specifics. Um in order to make a profit of this magnitude, we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty Euro. So we're selling it for twice what we'd like to produce it for. Okay um, just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um, I could {disfmarker} I'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls, um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control, what would be the best um like you {disfmarker} what are the features that you really like what are the features that you don't like, etcetera, so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um I hate when there's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the T_V_ like you have to do one for the power of the T_V_ and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going, I don't know. Now they keep combining all different remotes together, and I don't know if I necessarily like that'cause I feel like you end up with multimedia overload.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I just wanna watch the T_V_ {vocalsound} um.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Always gets lost. Some sort of like device to help you find it.
User Interface: I've used, I've used remote controls, for things like T_V_ and the C_D_ player and video recorder and I I guess they're they're pretty neat neat little tools uh. You don't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: So especially if you're someone really lazy like me they they're pretty nice. Um. I find them {disfmarker} they can be a bit annoying, especially, like you know if I'm watching T_V_ I have have to have three separate remote controls of {disfmarker} in front of me, you know, one for the T_V_, one for the digital box, one for m the video recorder as well. Um. And also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing, they've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all I really wanna do is switch on and off, change the channel, change the volume.
Industrial Designer: Yeah um. I agree with having too many remotes around. My dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things, and I don't know how to work half of them um. What's important for me, I guess, is that it's easy to use and that there's not too many buttons, they are not too small, you know you know you need to n to know what you're doing. And one thing I particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um, I think there is a way around that,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but I know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: so i it's just simpler just to just turn around the T_V_ itself, and I think that's {disfmarker} if we're gonna make a remote control, it should actually work for what it's doing. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: What about like batteries and things like that, like are there some remotes that don don't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I would imagine all of them,
Industrial Designer: I know.
Project Manager: but we could {disfmarker} but it's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double A_s.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, something that doesn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um M_P_ three players now and that kind of thing. Um.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Um. Okay, it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes. So um like you said you don't like having all the buttons on one on one remote, and yet you don't wanna have five remotes. So how do we work with that?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Could we get something that just has {disfmarker} No doesn't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that I'm not very coherent about, but that just has your major buttons for {disfmarker} that work for everything, you know volume control, on, off,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: channel changing.
Marketing: And maybe that spatially divides it, so it's like if you're looki if you're trying to get the T_V_ on that's, you know, like the top thing on the remote, I dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we're gonna make it, but if it's like all the T_V_ stuff was here,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: then all the V_C_R_ stuff was here, all the {disfmarker} whatever else we have programmed into it it's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: N that way {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing:'cause then you like, I don't even know what I'm turning on.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, and if um if you'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you wouldn't need to use every day.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay, so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on, off, channel changing, volume, and another rote remote with all the special things.
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: Because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the T_V_s no longer have as well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So like you have to have them somewhere,
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager:'cause you're gonna m need those special functions occasionally. Um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: Can I ask, are we designing a remote control for a television only
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good question.
User Interface: um, and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't know that yet.
User Interface: Um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it?
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: It's a good question. Um. {vocalsound} I'll look into that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm hmm.
Project Manager: If I can.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it's just T_V_, I mean, if it {disfmarker} if we're taking it just {gap} new product a new television remote control that's not like {vocalsound} doesn't say.
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah.
Marketing: You know, things might be more advanced than that. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} So we should {disfmarker} maybe we should assume that i t it's just a television that we're wanting to control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, I mean I suppose it would be nice to have {vocalsound} playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well I I don't know if that works technologically or not.
Industrial Designer: Yes. I guess we have to define what what we're aiming for. If it's just a television then that {disfmarker} it's a bit simpler,'cause there's less buttons that would even need to be on it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: It's an idea with the buttons being really {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Large. If you have older people or people like me that aren't very co-ordinated hand-eye, it's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons, if we can help it.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.'Kay sounds like we've had a good little discussion for our first ideas. Mind if we move on? Ps
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: mm okay.
User Interface:'Kay.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes. I believe we've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty, so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you'd like um,
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we'll be doing individually. Um the industrial design, Alima will be doing um the working design.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um the User Interface Designer, that's for {gap}. Technical functions, I guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing, the size of the buttons. Um user requirements um, so you'll be hearing about different trends, uh about different things that people need, um I guess kind of the same uh discussion that we've been having, we'll get from the actual consum s consumers.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm'kay um. And you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach. I realised in this past one we we didn't have much, we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done. Um so very exited to see all your animals and how {disfmarker} what wonderful um artists we all are {vocalsound} um.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any questions?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: What we're gonna be discussing at the next meeting? Do we know that?
Project Manager: I haven't gotten an agenda yet, um I'll put that together. I'm sure as we'll each get our own instruction
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: and then um because what we gonna do is first our individual actions and then we'll come back together. So I'm sure we'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time
User Interface: Yep.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
User Interface: Yep.
Industrial Designer: I'm sure we'll be busy.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm'kay um I'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you. Um just including all the things that we talked about. Um.
User Interface: Okay. Can you e-mail your slides as well? Is that possible?
Project Manager: Yes, I yes, I think I can. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Cool
Project Manager: I'll just attach it to an email. And you're you're number two,
Industrial Designer: I'm two.
Project Manager: three, four?
Marketing: I'm four.
Project Manager: Is that correct? Okay.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: Excellent. It was lovely meeting you all.
User Interface:'Kay
Project Manager: Just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Project Manager: Let me see if I can do that right now. | Marketing was tired of too many buttons with different functions separately, but yet he doubted whether combining all different remotes together was necessary because he felt it ended up with multimedia overload. User Interface thought remote controls were pretty nice but could be a bit annoying because users didn't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel. However, three separate remote controls with too many buttons for TV could be confusing and complicated. Industrial Designer agreed with having too many remotes around. | qmsum |
Summarize the group discussion about the presentation on the prototype.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Good afternoon again.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of {disfmarker} detail design of the product of the remote control. Um {vocalsound} So here is the agenda for today. Uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two, sounds interesting. And we'll have um {vocalsound} presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our Marketing Experts. Then we'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh Euro. {vocalsound} Okay. So let's go. Uh if I go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting. {vocalsound} So we went through th uh w we took this following decisions. No L_C_D_, no speech recognition technology, okay, we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control. We went through the use of wheels and but buttons. {vocalsound} And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost. Okay. Um. Good. So guys let {gap} this uh wonderful thing.
Industrial Designer: Okay so we can go to the slides.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yeah. Sorry. Um.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Number three. Oh number two sorry.
Project Manager: Which is {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So final design. Final design. Okay so Michael you can go ahead.
User Interface: Yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow {disfmarker} well to make a banana
Project Manager: Yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe.
User Interface: remote {disfmarker} okay so we actually have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You can pull it out first, maybe.
User Interface: We've {disfmarker} well first first of all we made a an attractive {vocalsound} base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: bana sit {disfmarker} the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it's not gonna tip over and um this is the remote itself, it's kind of it's it's ergonomic, it fits in the hand uh rather well. We've got the two uh {vocalsound} uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath {vocalsound} we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally.
Project Manager: What's the use uh of the t turbo button already?
User Interface: This is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh {disfmarker} through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you {disfmarker} quickly rather th
Project Manager: Ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops.
User Interface: Yeah. Well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops. But normally with uh {disfmarker} it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: And we we do have one more functionality. If you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button, so it switch ons the switch ons the T_V_.
User Interface: The T_V_ yeah.
Project Manager: Which one?
User Interface: The s the turbo button.
Industrial Designer: The turbo button.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button.
Industrial Designer: Additional button.
Marketing: What this button for?
User Interface: This is a teletext button. So once you press that then you get teletext
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To navigate it through th through teletext.
User Interface: To navigate yeah.
Marketing: But if you want to go to page seven hundred?
Industrial Designer: That's right, that's right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {gap} with the wheel it's easy.
Marketing: How man
User Interface: Well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing, you press the {gap} the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go {disfmarker} you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't understand it. Can you repeat it? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well you can you can press press the teletext button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then you then you can you can f
Industrial Designer: So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And you can tele
Marketing: Ah okay okay. Okay. Okay okay.
Industrial Designer: yeah,
User Interface: Mm uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext, they are no more for channel or vol volume.
Marketing: Okay. I see. I see. Okay. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And this is the uh the infrared uh port.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
User Interface: Also the top of the banana.
Project Manager: Excellent.
User Interface: So. And then we have
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana.
Project Manager: Calling. Excellent.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas?
User Interface: Actually they do.
Project Manager: Oh.
User Interface: That's that's yeah that's uh that's form and function in the one in the one uh object.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So it always means, whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's like antennas.
User Interface: Yeah. So.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: But yeah that's um that's just like {disfmarker} that's an attractive um base station.
Project Manager: Great. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So.
Project Manager: So, what else?
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Is it really weight? Is it light or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is very light.
Project Manager: Yeah, they're light.
User Interface: It's it's uh it's about the weight of a banana.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: You know, to give you the correct look and feel.
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Ok
Industrial Designer: And we have put these different colours so that people don't mistake them mistake it as a banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's you know a child comes and so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Yeah yeah yeah, I see. I under I understand.
User Interface: I think a child would try to eat it anyway, so maybe we should
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: consider that. {gap} maybe health and safety aspects.
Project Manager: Ah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh we didn't think of that yet. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So for the power source, apparently you still {disfmarker} you you want to use both solar cells and batteries.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah that's right.
Project Manager: Uh you mean {disfmarker} okay. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station.
Project Manager: Yeah, where are going to {disfmarker} where are you are you going to place them?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm. It'll It'll be always at top somewhere at there.
User Interface: If I was gonna place them I'd put them on the on the top here since that's like uh the black bit
Project Manager: You have enough surface? You {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: but yeah I don't I really don't think it's necessary to have the solar cells anymore.
Industrial Designer: Yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: so that that is {gap}.
Project Manager: What will be the autonomy? Roughly?
User Interface: The what sorry?
Project Manager: The autonomy. Autonomy.
User Interface: What do you mean?
Project Manager: Uh I mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station?
Marketing: How long the {disfmarker} how long the bit the batteries long.
User Interface: Ah. Ah. A long time.
Project Manager: Yeah. A long {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} No no no,
Industrial Designer: Eight to ten eight to ten hours.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it can {disfmarker} it should be weeks.
Industrial Designer: N most {disfmarker} no most of the time it's not being used.
Project Manager: Yeah, so it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah but y people don't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wanna leave it on the couch so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So when when you are making it on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's used only when you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. No eight or eight or ten hours of working.
User Interface: Ah, okay.
Industrial Designer: If you are just leaving like that it'll be much longer.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah. F weeks.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's right.
Project Manager: Right. Next slide?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And we are having the speakers regular chip for control. Pricing is {disfmarker} was a factor so that's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip. And uh that's it.
Project Manager: Okay. {gap} Okay. Those really sounds very good.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nothing else to add?
User Interface: It seems to be falling over.
Marketing: I l yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: I like I like it. Maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the {vocalsound} the multifunctional buttons. Looks a bit {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You want to have more functional buttons?
Marketing: Looks a bit puzzled uh I dunno how to say {vocalsound} that.
Industrial Designer: You are not convinced.
Marketing: You {disfmarker} the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it's teletext or not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not not many, we we want to keep it simple. So that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case, that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that, the channel buttons, they baco become the scrolling buttons.
Marketing: And the volume button will will become {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's up to you, means.
Project Manager: Well in fact b both will be {disfmarker} could be useful, navigating through teletext.
Industrial Designer: Now that {disfmarker} Means let's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits.
User Interface: Or can move between positions in the in the number.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: And what about people who want to use digits? Butto real buttons?
Project Manager: Wow.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing, they they don't care about the buttons any more. And anyway {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff?
User Interface: It's all automatic.
Marketing: It's all automatic.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Okay yeah it's fine.
Project Manager: Very good uh yeah {disfmarker}
Marketing: W we are living in a wonderful world. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} you th yeah.
User Interface: Uh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Bananas everywhere.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Automatically configure {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we have to go through now evaluations.
Industrial Designer: Evalua yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So your slides are ready?
Marketing: S
Project Manager: Uh you're four I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So this is one, which one is this one?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. I {vocalsound} I const I constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements. And each criteria is {vocalsound} will be evaluated it's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it's true or is {disfmarker} or if it's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven.
Industrial Designer: Why this strange factor of seven?
Marketing: Because i I'm sorry. Sorry.
Industrial Designer: Usually I have seen that scales are from one to ten.
Marketing: Ah yeah. It's from {disfmarker} sorry, it's from one to seven. It's from from one to seven sorry. Because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Num number {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm a I I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay fine, got the idea.
Project Manager: So to have {disfmarker} in order to have enough granularity {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry?
Project Manager: it's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation.
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: The variance is mi it's is minimal.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay, okay, great.
Marketing: I'm um answering your question.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Go ahead.
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that's the criteria I I found more useful. I think I sh I {vocalsound} I could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Marketing: And we all four could range
Industrial Designer: Okay. Yeah yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: could evaluate the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So you can say fancy, handy. Handy.
Marketing: Okay let's let's evaluate if it's fancy or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's fancy, according to me.
Marketing: Seven but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, six.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S seven.
Industrial Designer: Seven. Seven by me.
Project Manager: Six.
Marketing: I would say seven.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: It's quite fancy.
Industrial Designer: So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No, wait.
User Interface: Yeah uh five.
Project Manager: What do you say seven? Five?
Industrial Designer: Five.
User Interface: Five, maybe maybe maybe six it's it's I guess it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, six point five.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Handy?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Again I'll give seven.
Project Manager: Seven.
User Interface: I'd give it a six like I'd I think it's probably more handy than my current remote,'cause of the scroll wheels
Marketing: Six.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote.
Project Manager: So seven, seven,
Industrial Designer: Seven for me.
Project Manager: six,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Six.
Project Manager: six point five. Functional. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll give five.
Project Manager: Four.
Marketing: I would say {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Well it depends when you say functional, do you mean it does what we want it to do, or d does what it does, you know, can it make you coffee?
Marketing: Everything ar
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh for a remote control, does he have all the {gap}
User Interface: You know.
Marketing: Mm everything {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. {gap}
Project Manager: you could expect.
Marketing: It's compared to the all
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: remote controls.
User Interface: That's before {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's right. The standards. What is available in the market off the shelf.
User Interface: Yeah. I have to say four.
Marketing: Actually I don't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro
User Interface: Well it's not a universal remote. Remember we're focus we're supposed to focus just on T_V_s.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah it's not an univer but it's for all kind of T_V_s?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well all T_V_s but only T_ {disfmarker} only T_V_s I guess.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's universal but for T_V_s. {vocalsound} So s uh four?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Five.
Project Manager: Five?
User Interface: Four.
Project Manager: Four.
Marketing: Four. Four.
Industrial Designer: So four point two?
User Interface: Just four.
Project Manager: Four.
Industrial Designer: {gap} four. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Obviously there are some outliers so {disfmarker}
Marketing: So four?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay cool? Cool device.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There I'll give it seven.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It means cool features, like new features actually.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Which {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For a T_V_ the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature. And then the scroll buttons are again cool features. We don't have L_C_D_ for it but that we decided we don't want to have.
Project Manager: Yeah. Seven.
Marketing: I would say five.
User Interface: I'll say five.
Project Manager: Six.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Seven.
Project Manager: Plus six, I say {disfmarker} I said seven.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So it's six.
User Interface: S yeah.
Marketing: You said seven? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'Cause it's five five seven seven so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Uh, okay, definitely easy to use.
Industrial Designer: Definitely seven.
User Interface: Seven.
Project Manager: Seven. Seven. And you? Outl you are not lik outlier.
Marketing: Five. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Seven {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay okay okay okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Sorry, I have them {disfmarker}
User Interface: Alright, now here's the sixty million Dollar question,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: well, twenty five twenty five Euro question.
Project Manager: Of course I'll buy the {gap} banana. {gap}
User Interface: What do you what do you guys reckon?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'll say five.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: I'll say five.
Project Manager: Twenty five Euros. {vocalsound} Cheap.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I find it quite cheap {vocalsound} actually.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno. If i i it depends, if you live in in Switzerland or you live in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, so the target price is for all Europe, or only for rich countries? {vocalsound} It's more targeting U_K_ or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know. Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So this is selling costs, not production costs.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah this is the the initial specifications.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah sure. Um {disfmarker} Five.
Marketing: I would say six. It's quite cheap actually.
User Interface: I'd say two.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Aw, should be nice in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't want a banana on my {vocalsound} living room table, a banana remote.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No but it's really handy actually if you see.
User Interface: It is handy, it's handy, but it it's terrible.
Industrial Designer: It's it's so handy. And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's kitsch.
Industrial Designer: Anyb anybody who comes here {vocalsound} {disfmarker} anybody who comes to your home he'll at least ask once what is this.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, but it's not a positive thing.
Industrial Designer: It's a very positive thing if you see like that {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Well, you know, it's it's handy, it's ergonomic, but it's a banana.
Project Manager: Well, don't forget well, don't for don't forget who we're targeting also who are f f who are wh
Industrial Designer: Youngsters.
Project Manager: yeah, youngst youngst
User Interface: Yeah but it says I, I would buy this, so.
Marketing: Actually maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} if you would be young.
Marketing: Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not telling that you are young. Li li like a teenager for instance.
User Interface: {vocalsound} No, it's I. I would buy {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay you're you're crazy teenager and you like fun things.
Industrial Designer: You want to flaunt.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} with your girlfriend or something.
Project Manager: Yeah, you want to show the beautiful banana you have. {gap}
User Interface: S s
Industrial Designer: Or might be it does some other kind of thing but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Still I I'd say two. I don't think I {disfmarker} at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control, really.
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, crazy.
Project Manager: Okay so you s you give {disfmarker}
User Interface: I can say, maybe there is a market for it, I dunno.
Project Manager: oh yeah yeah I know I know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you say two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I say five.
Project Manager: F I d I say five. You say?
Marketing: I change the question. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So what's the new question?
Industrial Designer: And you have saved it?
Marketing: So yeah upload the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You'll have to reload.
Project Manager: Uh yeah, I think so. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, so, it depends if uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah it's two different situations. If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one.
Project Manager: Yeah that's two different question.
User Interface: If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro, if that was like my limit, maybe I would buy it. Because the other twenty five Euro remote controls are probably gonna look
Project Manager: Ugly.
User Interface: worse than a banana. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: They're not going to be as {disfmarker} And they they might not be a as easy as this {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it {disfmarker} yeah this is gonna f you know handy to use.
Industrial Designer: yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: So? What now? What range?
Project Manager: I stick to five.
Industrial Designer: S
User Interface: Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I go slightly up. Six.
Marketing: Six.
User Interface: so I dunno. Um.
Project Manager: W we have six, five {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'd give it I'd give it a
Project Manager: Three {vocalsound}
User Interface: I give it a four now.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Six? Six?
Project Manager: So we are six, five, four {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six, five, four.
Marketing: Six, so it's uh five point five, or less.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So and last question, will I change my rem change my remote control from Mando banana. Um, zero. No uh we can't. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So one.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Actually yeah, I {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No uh let's say I'll put two.
User Interface: I'd say three, I mean my remote control is kinda {disfmarker} at home is pretty terrible. If it was {disfmarker} change my remote control of my D_V_D_ player for a Mando banana then I would be more inclined to
Project Manager: It's for the T_V_.
User Interface: but uh {disfmarker}'cause it's really bad but uh {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'd say a three. {gap}
Industrial Designer: I'll still give it five. Yeah.
Marketing: Five?
Project Manager: Two three five two three fi and two.
Marketing: {gap} You are romantic, really.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it's somewhere three point five I think.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I would say two.
Project Manager: So it's r Yeah, three point five. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Who is the outlier?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh wh {vocalsound} you said five?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no you say five, he is the outlier.
Industrial Designer: No I said five.
Project Manager: Okay just just do a sum.
Marketing: I don't know if {vocalsound} it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's not very promising but you know we're not young trendsetters. {vocalsound}
Marketing: No because there are more {disfmarker} yeah, we shouldn't sum like that.
Project Manager: Well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob
Marketing: Because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Otherwise we wouldn't {disfmarker} we will not sell.
User Interface: Is there some some formula you're using that says you have to sum them up?
Marketing: Uh no I didn't {gap} anything. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well just leave it at that then.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oops.
Project Manager: So maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling. We can had uh have a {disfmarker} out of these numbers, which which is that well we should go for it.
Marketing: Yeah, the uh {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Problem with connectors? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want me to sum
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it's it's funny. {vocalsound}
Marketing: o I think it's not {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it, so.
Project Manager: Okay. So let's move uh let's move on.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, {gap} now now we have to mm to estimate {vocalsound} uh the cost okay. So I prepare an Excel sh uh an Excel sheet. Um well we are going to calculate the production costs. We should we should be below twelve point five. So I already uh put some pu some numbers here, okay. We are going to go through {vocalsound} {disfmarker} so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing. So it appears that there were things that we didn't thought about. Uh and also things that I uh I d I forget to uh to put like solar cells.
User Interface: Well we decided against the solar cells so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Oh yeah finally we say no.
Industrial Designer: Solar cells, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, we said no to that.
Project Manager: Okay so let's let's go let's go let go through all the lines. So hand dynamo. This something we didn't thought about. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: You mean, charging it by shaking the banana.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so we we stick to battery, one.
Industrial Designer: To bring the cost {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: No kinetic also. I don't I don't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo.
User Interface: Well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah you have to {disfmarker} ah okay I see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Crazy. Okay. So those banana is falling. Let's go ahead. So we we st only have one for battery. Uh then for electronics um so I didn't put anything for the {gap}.
Industrial Designer: So we have the regular chip on the print, which is one.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And that's it.
Project Manager: Okay. No {disfmarker} so we hin
Industrial Designer: And we have sample speaker.
Project Manager: Yeah so one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. {gap} the cost of that is very high.
Project Manager: Ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing. So we are {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well actually that that {disfmarker} no that sample speaker is not {disfmarker} we we're not using that, we're just using the the very beep {disfmarker} simple beep,
Project Manager: The beep.
User Interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything.
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: That's what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay so I'll remove it.
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: S
User Interface: I say that {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: So don't we need a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And we have sev
Project Manager: Oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we we'll put some extras, if there is something.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe. We'll see later.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay so in {disfmarker} for the case um {vocalsound} I put single curved.
Industrial Designer: Okay. To reduce the cost, it's okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well, wait a second,
Project Manager: Because we have two things.
User Interface: no, it's it's double curved, it's got a c, it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's got all the directions
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: so don't worry. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well d yeah it's monotonic {vocalsound} but
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's got a {gap} direction. {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's got {disfmarker} but if you hold it if you hold it that way that's two curved, one on this side, one on that side, but they're opposite sides.
Project Manager: Well. What a {disfmarker} what i if I put one here.
User Interface: This is actually {disfmarker} I mean this probably
Marketing: Actually what's the differen
User Interface: this probably actually costs more than three
Project Manager: Yeah so let's put one here in the {gap} then instead of single
User Interface: if you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: oka all right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we stick to plastic, it cost nothing.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's right.
User Interface: Well {gap} {disfmarker} no didn't we say we wanted to do a rubber {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, it's too {disfmarker} no.
User Interface: {gap} if you drop it?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too expensive.
Project Manager: It's too expensive. We're already at eleven.
User Interface: Well when {disfmarker} okay. Well we we'll come back we'll come back and see if we can fit it in.
Project Manager: Okay so I put rubber one. Okay so special colour, yellow.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh for the interface we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We don't have any push buttons.
User Interface: No, we have two push buttons.
Project Manager: We have three.
Industrial Designer: No that is a scroll wheel itself, it'll be put in that.
User Interface: Huh.
Project Manager: No no. We have two scroll, and we have three push buttons.
Industrial Designer: Ah okay, okay.
User Interface: Uh.
Industrial Designer: Okay, okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay it's gonna have to be plastic.
Marketing: Actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two, because there is another chip here.
Project Manager: No it's {gap} no chip. This is just radio frequency {gap}. Th This is no chip.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah but
Industrial Designer: No. There's no chip there.
Marketing: you need {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It just emits the signal.
Project Manager: It's just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the receiver accepts it and that's it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Fo i it does nothing actually?
Project Manager: No. Just {disfmarker} only {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Just se sends the signal, that's it.
User Interface: It's a recharger thing and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay w we didn't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons.
User Interface: Well I actually did um think about it myself {vocalsound} but I thought you know {disfmarker} because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a {disfmarker} instead of a turbo button
Project Manager: Yeah,
User Interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: You know. So I mean if we're if we're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that.
Project Manager: Okay. So no L_C_D_, so for {disfmarker} we have no button supplements, right?
Industrial Designer: Yep. No.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because {disfmarker} oh no, these are these are for colours, co and special forms, special colours and special materials.
User Interface: Yeah. No we're not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: we don't need anything special for the buttons.
Project Manager: Okay so we are over budget.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So first thing which we should take care of is,
User Interface: Make it plastic instead of rubber.
Industrial Designer: instead of rubber, let it be plastic.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And then we're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents.
Industrial Designer: And uh that much money will be required for the base station, which is not there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: So mayb in fact n we have to put two here
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: because it cost nothing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of {vocalsound} plastic.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which {disfmarker} the cord and everything which'll go {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff.
User Interface: Does that include charging circuitry and everything? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe. Okay good. Wha
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Excellent.
User Interface: So what do we do with the extra profits?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we'll invest in R_ and D_.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} The next fruit.
Project Manager: Yeah. So well we're under the the the cost. So we can go to {disfmarker} through to project evaluation. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy. Would {disfmarker} yeah, would buy.
Project Manager: Sorry?
User Interface: No we have a product which none of us would buy. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah because th th the evaluation project {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which is different. Which is different. None of us will buy it.
User Interface: No it's people in in in Milan and uh in Paris that are gonna buy it.
Marketing: Ah would buy, yeah.
User Interface: We're n
Marketing: Massively, yeah.
User Interface: yeah. We're not in Milan or Paris.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Okay. Uh you have been in Milan a couple of times, so.
Project Manager: This is a battery. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Actually there were a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And you said the lowest {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is what we {disfmarker} which you can mm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: S Detachable battery.
Project Manager: It did {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: That's'cause I'm sick of Milan.
Marketing: Yeah, for the batteries {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Extra battery, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay so um {vocalsound} project process.
Project Manager: Exac {vocalsound} Well in fact I I did not know {vocalsound} I didn't know really what to say here.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say. So I don't I don't I don't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Should it be more like um like a status of of the {disfmarker} these meetings in fact.
User Interface: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen, not that much.
User Interface: I dunno I think we had a fair bit of creativity.
Project Manager: Oh yeah it's really creative.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And uh but I think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um {vocalsound} like a focus group with the actual people we're targeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: They like that.
User Interface: see if they like it.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe we should go through, yeah an uh evaluation.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless.
Industrial Designer: Biased.
Project Manager: So maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation {vocalsound} in the streets like asking to young peoples well, do you like to have a banana as a remote control.
User Interface: Yeah. Because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well, to see you know how to how to market this thing.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface:'Cause you know if {disfmarker} well I mean maybe you don't wanna give all your kids their own remote because they'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a T_V_ for each kid, then you know, banana remote control could be fun for them as well.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Might have to draw a face on it. So but I think that's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market.
Project Manager: Yep. Any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time? Dunno, oranges?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. The cost of the thing can be made more than might be. Because I think it's just the optimal, what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. I think there are ways we could maybe simplify the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Interface.
User Interface: Well just the the the circuit board that we're using inside,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I'm not sure really how complicated our um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: our needs are. I mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers, do we really need an integrated circuit to
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: you know to process that.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on T_V_.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: The complexity shouldn't be much higher.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: For {disfmarker} you said if it good for D_V_D_ then I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff, that would be rather cool. I think that's actually something that should be in version two, is the ability to you know to control things other than the T_V_
Industrial Designer: Integrate.
User Interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Very good. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} What else?
Project Manager: Well done. I think we we can go
Industrial Designer: Okay. Home?
Project Manager: home.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Happily satisfied. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} Okay so thanks very much.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Bye.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: Thank you.
Marketing: Bye. | User Interface and Industrial Designer firstly presented on the prototype features which agreed to have a banana shape with a size that fitted to the hand. Also, they showed the prototype with a leaf base station with a calling button to locate the remote control. As agreed by the group, the prototype would have two scroll wheels to control the volume and the channel, the turbo button that also could be used to turn on the TV, the teletext button to faster switch the channel. Also, the group decided to give up on the solar cells and to use rechargeable batteries for the power source. Concerning the product cost, the group decided to use a regular chip for the speaker. | qmsum |
Summarize the group discussion about the project process.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Good afternoon again.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of {disfmarker} detail design of the product of the remote control. Um {vocalsound} So here is the agenda for today. Uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two, sounds interesting. And we'll have um {vocalsound} presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our Marketing Experts. Then we'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh Euro. {vocalsound} Okay. So let's go. Uh if I go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting. {vocalsound} So we went through th uh w we took this following decisions. No L_C_D_, no speech recognition technology, okay, we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control. We went through the use of wheels and but buttons. {vocalsound} And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost. Okay. Um. Good. So guys let {gap} this uh wonderful thing.
Industrial Designer: Okay so we can go to the slides.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yeah. Sorry. Um.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Number three. Oh number two sorry.
Project Manager: Which is {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So final design. Final design. Okay so Michael you can go ahead.
User Interface: Yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow {disfmarker} well to make a banana
Project Manager: Yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe.
User Interface: remote {disfmarker} okay so we actually have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You can pull it out first, maybe.
User Interface: We've {disfmarker} well first first of all we made a an attractive {vocalsound} base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: bana sit {disfmarker} the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it's not gonna tip over and um this is the remote itself, it's kind of it's it's ergonomic, it fits in the hand uh rather well. We've got the two uh {vocalsound} uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath {vocalsound} we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally.
Project Manager: What's the use uh of the t turbo button already?
User Interface: This is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh {disfmarker} through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you {disfmarker} quickly rather th
Project Manager: Ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops.
User Interface: Yeah. Well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops. But normally with uh {disfmarker} it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: And we we do have one more functionality. If you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button, so it switch ons the switch ons the T_V_.
User Interface: The T_V_ yeah.
Project Manager: Which one?
User Interface: The s the turbo button.
Industrial Designer: The turbo button.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button.
Industrial Designer: Additional button.
Marketing: What this button for?
User Interface: This is a teletext button. So once you press that then you get teletext
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To navigate it through th through teletext.
User Interface: To navigate yeah.
Marketing: But if you want to go to page seven hundred?
Industrial Designer: That's right, that's right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {gap} with the wheel it's easy.
Marketing: How man
User Interface: Well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing, you press the {gap} the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go {disfmarker} you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't understand it. Can you repeat it? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well you can you can press press the teletext button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then you then you can you can f
Industrial Designer: So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And you can tele
Marketing: Ah okay okay. Okay. Okay okay.
Industrial Designer: yeah,
User Interface: Mm uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext, they are no more for channel or vol volume.
Marketing: Okay. I see. I see. Okay. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And this is the uh the infrared uh port.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
User Interface: Also the top of the banana.
Project Manager: Excellent.
User Interface: So. And then we have
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana.
Project Manager: Calling. Excellent.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas?
User Interface: Actually they do.
Project Manager: Oh.
User Interface: That's that's yeah that's uh that's form and function in the one in the one uh object.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So it always means, whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's like antennas.
User Interface: Yeah. So.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: But yeah that's um that's just like {disfmarker} that's an attractive um base station.
Project Manager: Great. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So.
Project Manager: So, what else?
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Is it really weight? Is it light or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is very light.
Project Manager: Yeah, they're light.
User Interface: It's it's uh it's about the weight of a banana.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: You know, to give you the correct look and feel.
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Ok
Industrial Designer: And we have put these different colours so that people don't mistake them mistake it as a banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's you know a child comes and so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Yeah yeah yeah, I see. I under I understand.
User Interface: I think a child would try to eat it anyway, so maybe we should
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: consider that. {gap} maybe health and safety aspects.
Project Manager: Ah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh we didn't think of that yet. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So for the power source, apparently you still {disfmarker} you you want to use both solar cells and batteries.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah that's right.
Project Manager: Uh you mean {disfmarker} okay. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station.
Project Manager: Yeah, where are going to {disfmarker} where are you are you going to place them?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm. It'll It'll be always at top somewhere at there.
User Interface: If I was gonna place them I'd put them on the on the top here since that's like uh the black bit
Project Manager: You have enough surface? You {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: but yeah I don't I really don't think it's necessary to have the solar cells anymore.
Industrial Designer: Yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: so that that is {gap}.
Project Manager: What will be the autonomy? Roughly?
User Interface: The what sorry?
Project Manager: The autonomy. Autonomy.
User Interface: What do you mean?
Project Manager: Uh I mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station?
Marketing: How long the {disfmarker} how long the bit the batteries long.
User Interface: Ah. Ah. A long time.
Project Manager: Yeah. A long {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} No no no,
Industrial Designer: Eight to ten eight to ten hours.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it can {disfmarker} it should be weeks.
Industrial Designer: N most {disfmarker} no most of the time it's not being used.
Project Manager: Yeah, so it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah but y people don't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wanna leave it on the couch so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So when when you are making it on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's used only when you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. No eight or eight or ten hours of working.
User Interface: Ah, okay.
Industrial Designer: If you are just leaving like that it'll be much longer.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah. F weeks.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's right.
Project Manager: Right. Next slide?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And we are having the speakers regular chip for control. Pricing is {disfmarker} was a factor so that's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip. And uh that's it.
Project Manager: Okay. {gap} Okay. Those really sounds very good.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nothing else to add?
User Interface: It seems to be falling over.
Marketing: I l yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: I like I like it. Maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the {vocalsound} the multifunctional buttons. Looks a bit {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You want to have more functional buttons?
Marketing: Looks a bit puzzled uh I dunno how to say {vocalsound} that.
Industrial Designer: You are not convinced.
Marketing: You {disfmarker} the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it's teletext or not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not not many, we we want to keep it simple. So that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case, that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that, the channel buttons, they baco become the scrolling buttons.
Marketing: And the volume button will will become {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's up to you, means.
Project Manager: Well in fact b both will be {disfmarker} could be useful, navigating through teletext.
Industrial Designer: Now that {disfmarker} Means let's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits.
User Interface: Or can move between positions in the in the number.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: And what about people who want to use digits? Butto real buttons?
Project Manager: Wow.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing, they they don't care about the buttons any more. And anyway {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff?
User Interface: It's all automatic.
Marketing: It's all automatic.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Okay yeah it's fine.
Project Manager: Very good uh yeah {disfmarker}
Marketing: W we are living in a wonderful world. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} you th yeah.
User Interface: Uh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Bananas everywhere.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Automatically configure {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we have to go through now evaluations.
Industrial Designer: Evalua yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So your slides are ready?
Marketing: S
Project Manager: Uh you're four I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So this is one, which one is this one?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. I {vocalsound} I const I constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements. And each criteria is {vocalsound} will be evaluated it's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it's true or is {disfmarker} or if it's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven.
Industrial Designer: Why this strange factor of seven?
Marketing: Because i I'm sorry. Sorry.
Industrial Designer: Usually I have seen that scales are from one to ten.
Marketing: Ah yeah. It's from {disfmarker} sorry, it's from one to seven. It's from from one to seven sorry. Because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Num number {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm a I I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay fine, got the idea.
Project Manager: So to have {disfmarker} in order to have enough granularity {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry?
Project Manager: it's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation.
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: The variance is mi it's is minimal.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay, okay, great.
Marketing: I'm um answering your question.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Go ahead.
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that's the criteria I I found more useful. I think I sh I {vocalsound} I could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Marketing: And we all four could range
Industrial Designer: Okay. Yeah yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: could evaluate the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So you can say fancy, handy. Handy.
Marketing: Okay let's let's evaluate if it's fancy or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's fancy, according to me.
Marketing: Seven but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, six.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S seven.
Industrial Designer: Seven. Seven by me.
Project Manager: Six.
Marketing: I would say seven.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: It's quite fancy.
Industrial Designer: So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No, wait.
User Interface: Yeah uh five.
Project Manager: What do you say seven? Five?
Industrial Designer: Five.
User Interface: Five, maybe maybe maybe six it's it's I guess it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, six point five.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Handy?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Again I'll give seven.
Project Manager: Seven.
User Interface: I'd give it a six like I'd I think it's probably more handy than my current remote,'cause of the scroll wheels
Marketing: Six.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote.
Project Manager: So seven, seven,
Industrial Designer: Seven for me.
Project Manager: six,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Six.
Project Manager: six point five. Functional. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll give five.
Project Manager: Four.
Marketing: I would say {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Well it depends when you say functional, do you mean it does what we want it to do, or d does what it does, you know, can it make you coffee?
Marketing: Everything ar
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh for a remote control, does he have all the {gap}
User Interface: You know.
Marketing: Mm everything {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. {gap}
Project Manager: you could expect.
Marketing: It's compared to the all
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: remote controls.
User Interface: That's before {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's right. The standards. What is available in the market off the shelf.
User Interface: Yeah. I have to say four.
Marketing: Actually I don't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro
User Interface: Well it's not a universal remote. Remember we're focus we're supposed to focus just on T_V_s.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah it's not an univer but it's for all kind of T_V_s?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well all T_V_s but only T_ {disfmarker} only T_V_s I guess.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's universal but for T_V_s. {vocalsound} So s uh four?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Five.
Project Manager: Five?
User Interface: Four.
Project Manager: Four.
Marketing: Four. Four.
Industrial Designer: So four point two?
User Interface: Just four.
Project Manager: Four.
Industrial Designer: {gap} four. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Obviously there are some outliers so {disfmarker}
Marketing: So four?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay cool? Cool device.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There I'll give it seven.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It means cool features, like new features actually.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Which {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For a T_V_ the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature. And then the scroll buttons are again cool features. We don't have L_C_D_ for it but that we decided we don't want to have.
Project Manager: Yeah. Seven.
Marketing: I would say five.
User Interface: I'll say five.
Project Manager: Six.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Seven.
Project Manager: Plus six, I say {disfmarker} I said seven.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So it's six.
User Interface: S yeah.
Marketing: You said seven? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'Cause it's five five seven seven so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Uh, okay, definitely easy to use.
Industrial Designer: Definitely seven.
User Interface: Seven.
Project Manager: Seven. Seven. And you? Outl you are not lik outlier.
Marketing: Five. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Seven {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay okay okay okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Sorry, I have them {disfmarker}
User Interface: Alright, now here's the sixty million Dollar question,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: well, twenty five twenty five Euro question.
Project Manager: Of course I'll buy the {gap} banana. {gap}
User Interface: What do you what do you guys reckon?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'll say five.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: I'll say five.
Project Manager: Twenty five Euros. {vocalsound} Cheap.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I find it quite cheap {vocalsound} actually.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno. If i i it depends, if you live in in Switzerland or you live in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, so the target price is for all Europe, or only for rich countries? {vocalsound} It's more targeting U_K_ or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know. Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So this is selling costs, not production costs.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah this is the the initial specifications.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah sure. Um {disfmarker} Five.
Marketing: I would say six. It's quite cheap actually.
User Interface: I'd say two.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Aw, should be nice in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't want a banana on my {vocalsound} living room table, a banana remote.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No but it's really handy actually if you see.
User Interface: It is handy, it's handy, but it it's terrible.
Industrial Designer: It's it's so handy. And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's kitsch.
Industrial Designer: Anyb anybody who comes here {vocalsound} {disfmarker} anybody who comes to your home he'll at least ask once what is this.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, but it's not a positive thing.
Industrial Designer: It's a very positive thing if you see like that {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Well, you know, it's it's handy, it's ergonomic, but it's a banana.
Project Manager: Well, don't forget well, don't for don't forget who we're targeting also who are f f who are wh
Industrial Designer: Youngsters.
Project Manager: yeah, youngst youngst
User Interface: Yeah but it says I, I would buy this, so.
Marketing: Actually maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} if you would be young.
Marketing: Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not telling that you are young. Li li like a teenager for instance.
User Interface: {vocalsound} No, it's I. I would buy {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay you're you're crazy teenager and you like fun things.
Industrial Designer: You want to flaunt.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} with your girlfriend or something.
Project Manager: Yeah, you want to show the beautiful banana you have. {gap}
User Interface: S s
Industrial Designer: Or might be it does some other kind of thing but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Still I I'd say two. I don't think I {disfmarker} at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control, really.
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, crazy.
Project Manager: Okay so you s you give {disfmarker}
User Interface: I can say, maybe there is a market for it, I dunno.
Project Manager: oh yeah yeah I know I know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you say two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I say five.
Project Manager: F I d I say five. You say?
Marketing: I change the question. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So what's the new question?
Industrial Designer: And you have saved it?
Marketing: So yeah upload the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You'll have to reload.
Project Manager: Uh yeah, I think so. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, so, it depends if uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah it's two different situations. If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one.
Project Manager: Yeah that's two different question.
User Interface: If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro, if that was like my limit, maybe I would buy it. Because the other twenty five Euro remote controls are probably gonna look
Project Manager: Ugly.
User Interface: worse than a banana. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: They're not going to be as {disfmarker} And they they might not be a as easy as this {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it {disfmarker} yeah this is gonna f you know handy to use.
Industrial Designer: yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: So? What now? What range?
Project Manager: I stick to five.
Industrial Designer: S
User Interface: Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I go slightly up. Six.
Marketing: Six.
User Interface: so I dunno. Um.
Project Manager: W we have six, five {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'd give it I'd give it a
Project Manager: Three {vocalsound}
User Interface: I give it a four now.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Six? Six?
Project Manager: So we are six, five, four {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six, five, four.
Marketing: Six, so it's uh five point five, or less.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So and last question, will I change my rem change my remote control from Mando banana. Um, zero. No uh we can't. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So one.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Actually yeah, I {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No uh let's say I'll put two.
User Interface: I'd say three, I mean my remote control is kinda {disfmarker} at home is pretty terrible. If it was {disfmarker} change my remote control of my D_V_D_ player for a Mando banana then I would be more inclined to
Project Manager: It's for the T_V_.
User Interface: but uh {disfmarker}'cause it's really bad but uh {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'd say a three. {gap}
Industrial Designer: I'll still give it five. Yeah.
Marketing: Five?
Project Manager: Two three five two three fi and two.
Marketing: {gap} You are romantic, really.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it's somewhere three point five I think.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I would say two.
Project Manager: So it's r Yeah, three point five. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Who is the outlier?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh wh {vocalsound} you said five?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no you say five, he is the outlier.
Industrial Designer: No I said five.
Project Manager: Okay just just do a sum.
Marketing: I don't know if {vocalsound} it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's not very promising but you know we're not young trendsetters. {vocalsound}
Marketing: No because there are more {disfmarker} yeah, we shouldn't sum like that.
Project Manager: Well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob
Marketing: Because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Otherwise we wouldn't {disfmarker} we will not sell.
User Interface: Is there some some formula you're using that says you have to sum them up?
Marketing: Uh no I didn't {gap} anything. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well just leave it at that then.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oops.
Project Manager: So maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling. We can had uh have a {disfmarker} out of these numbers, which which is that well we should go for it.
Marketing: Yeah, the uh {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Problem with connectors? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want me to sum
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it's it's funny. {vocalsound}
Marketing: o I think it's not {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it, so.
Project Manager: Okay. So let's move uh let's move on.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, {gap} now now we have to mm to estimate {vocalsound} uh the cost okay. So I prepare an Excel sh uh an Excel sheet. Um well we are going to calculate the production costs. We should we should be below twelve point five. So I already uh put some pu some numbers here, okay. We are going to go through {vocalsound} {disfmarker} so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing. So it appears that there were things that we didn't thought about. Uh and also things that I uh I d I forget to uh to put like solar cells.
User Interface: Well we decided against the solar cells so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Oh yeah finally we say no.
Industrial Designer: Solar cells, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, we said no to that.
Project Manager: Okay so let's let's go let's go let go through all the lines. So hand dynamo. This something we didn't thought about. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: You mean, charging it by shaking the banana.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so we we stick to battery, one.
Industrial Designer: To bring the cost {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: No kinetic also. I don't I don't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo.
User Interface: Well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah you have to {disfmarker} ah okay I see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Crazy. Okay. So those banana is falling. Let's go ahead. So we we st only have one for battery. Uh then for electronics um so I didn't put anything for the {gap}.
Industrial Designer: So we have the regular chip on the print, which is one.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And that's it.
Project Manager: Okay. No {disfmarker} so we hin
Industrial Designer: And we have sample speaker.
Project Manager: Yeah so one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. {gap} the cost of that is very high.
Project Manager: Ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing. So we are {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well actually that that {disfmarker} no that sample speaker is not {disfmarker} we we're not using that, we're just using the the very beep {disfmarker} simple beep,
Project Manager: The beep.
User Interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything.
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: That's what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay so I'll remove it.
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: S
User Interface: I say that {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: So don't we need a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And we have sev
Project Manager: Oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we we'll put some extras, if there is something.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe. We'll see later.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay so in {disfmarker} for the case um {vocalsound} I put single curved.
Industrial Designer: Okay. To reduce the cost, it's okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well, wait a second,
Project Manager: Because we have two things.
User Interface: no, it's it's double curved, it's got a c, it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's got all the directions
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: so don't worry. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well d yeah it's monotonic {vocalsound} but
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's got a {gap} direction. {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's got {disfmarker} but if you hold it if you hold it that way that's two curved, one on this side, one on that side, but they're opposite sides.
Project Manager: Well. What a {disfmarker} what i if I put one here.
User Interface: This is actually {disfmarker} I mean this probably
Marketing: Actually what's the differen
User Interface: this probably actually costs more than three
Project Manager: Yeah so let's put one here in the {gap} then instead of single
User Interface: if you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: oka all right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we stick to plastic, it cost nothing.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's right.
User Interface: Well {gap} {disfmarker} no didn't we say we wanted to do a rubber {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, it's too {disfmarker} no.
User Interface: {gap} if you drop it?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too expensive.
Project Manager: It's too expensive. We're already at eleven.
User Interface: Well when {disfmarker} okay. Well we we'll come back we'll come back and see if we can fit it in.
Project Manager: Okay so I put rubber one. Okay so special colour, yellow.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh for the interface we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We don't have any push buttons.
User Interface: No, we have two push buttons.
Project Manager: We have three.
Industrial Designer: No that is a scroll wheel itself, it'll be put in that.
User Interface: Huh.
Project Manager: No no. We have two scroll, and we have three push buttons.
Industrial Designer: Ah okay, okay.
User Interface: Uh.
Industrial Designer: Okay, okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay it's gonna have to be plastic.
Marketing: Actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two, because there is another chip here.
Project Manager: No it's {gap} no chip. This is just radio frequency {gap}. Th This is no chip.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah but
Industrial Designer: No. There's no chip there.
Marketing: you need {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It just emits the signal.
Project Manager: It's just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the receiver accepts it and that's it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Fo i it does nothing actually?
Project Manager: No. Just {disfmarker} only {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Just se sends the signal, that's it.
User Interface: It's a recharger thing and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay w we didn't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons.
User Interface: Well I actually did um think about it myself {vocalsound} but I thought you know {disfmarker} because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a {disfmarker} instead of a turbo button
Project Manager: Yeah,
User Interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: You know. So I mean if we're if we're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that.
Project Manager: Okay. So no L_C_D_, so for {disfmarker} we have no button supplements, right?
Industrial Designer: Yep. No.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because {disfmarker} oh no, these are these are for colours, co and special forms, special colours and special materials.
User Interface: Yeah. No we're not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: we don't need anything special for the buttons.
Project Manager: Okay so we are over budget.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So first thing which we should take care of is,
User Interface: Make it plastic instead of rubber.
Industrial Designer: instead of rubber, let it be plastic.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And then we're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents.
Industrial Designer: And uh that much money will be required for the base station, which is not there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: So mayb in fact n we have to put two here
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: because it cost nothing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of {vocalsound} plastic.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which {disfmarker} the cord and everything which'll go {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff.
User Interface: Does that include charging circuitry and everything? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe. Okay good. Wha
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Excellent.
User Interface: So what do we do with the extra profits?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we'll invest in R_ and D_.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} The next fruit.
Project Manager: Yeah. So well we're under the the the cost. So we can go to {disfmarker} through to project evaluation. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy. Would {disfmarker} yeah, would buy.
Project Manager: Sorry?
User Interface: No we have a product which none of us would buy. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah because th th the evaluation project {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which is different. Which is different. None of us will buy it.
User Interface: No it's people in in in Milan and uh in Paris that are gonna buy it.
Marketing: Ah would buy, yeah.
User Interface: We're n
Marketing: Massively, yeah.
User Interface: yeah. We're not in Milan or Paris.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Okay. Uh you have been in Milan a couple of times, so.
Project Manager: This is a battery. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Actually there were a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And you said the lowest {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is what we {disfmarker} which you can mm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: S Detachable battery.
Project Manager: It did {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: That's'cause I'm sick of Milan.
Marketing: Yeah, for the batteries {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Extra battery, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay so um {vocalsound} project process.
Project Manager: Exac {vocalsound} Well in fact I I did not know {vocalsound} I didn't know really what to say here.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say. So I don't I don't I don't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Should it be more like um like a status of of the {disfmarker} these meetings in fact.
User Interface: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen, not that much.
User Interface: I dunno I think we had a fair bit of creativity.
Project Manager: Oh yeah it's really creative.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And uh but I think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um {vocalsound} like a focus group with the actual people we're targeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: They like that.
User Interface: see if they like it.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe we should go through, yeah an uh evaluation.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless.
Industrial Designer: Biased.
Project Manager: So maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation {vocalsound} in the streets like asking to young peoples well, do you like to have a banana as a remote control.
User Interface: Yeah. Because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well, to see you know how to how to market this thing.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface:'Cause you know if {disfmarker} well I mean maybe you don't wanna give all your kids their own remote because they'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a T_V_ for each kid, then you know, banana remote control could be fun for them as well.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Might have to draw a face on it. So but I think that's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market.
Project Manager: Yep. Any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time? Dunno, oranges?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. The cost of the thing can be made more than might be. Because I think it's just the optimal, what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. I think there are ways we could maybe simplify the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Interface.
User Interface: Well just the the the circuit board that we're using inside,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I'm not sure really how complicated our um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: our needs are. I mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers, do we really need an integrated circuit to
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: you know to process that.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on T_V_.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: The complexity shouldn't be much higher.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: For {disfmarker} you said if it good for D_V_D_ then I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff, that would be rather cool. I think that's actually something that should be in version two, is the ability to you know to control things other than the T_V_
Industrial Designer: Integrate.
User Interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Very good. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} What else?
Project Manager: Well done. I think we we can go
Industrial Designer: Okay. Home?
Project Manager: home.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Happily satisfied. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} Okay so thanks very much.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Bye.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: Thank you.
Marketing: Bye. | Project Manager agreed that the group had used fairly on the whiteboard and digital pen during the meeting. They all agreed on much creativity satisfaction during the discussion. User Interface supplemented that they should focus on broader target markets within the European countries. Also, Project Manager suggested that they should use the same evaluation criteria to do a street survey with young people. The group agreed to improve in an integrated circuit board to control things other than TV. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Good afternoon again.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of {disfmarker} detail design of the product of the remote control. Um {vocalsound} So here is the agenda for today. Uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two, sounds interesting. And we'll have um {vocalsound} presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our Marketing Experts. Then we'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh Euro. {vocalsound} Okay. So let's go. Uh if I go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting. {vocalsound} So we went through th uh w we took this following decisions. No L_C_D_, no speech recognition technology, okay, we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control. We went through the use of wheels and but buttons. {vocalsound} And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost. Okay. Um. Good. So guys let {gap} this uh wonderful thing.
Industrial Designer: Okay so we can go to the slides.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yeah. Sorry. Um.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Number three. Oh number two sorry.
Project Manager: Which is {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So final design. Final design. Okay so Michael you can go ahead.
User Interface: Yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow {disfmarker} well to make a banana
Project Manager: Yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe.
User Interface: remote {disfmarker} okay so we actually have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You can pull it out first, maybe.
User Interface: We've {disfmarker} well first first of all we made a an attractive {vocalsound} base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: bana sit {disfmarker} the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it's not gonna tip over and um this is the remote itself, it's kind of it's it's ergonomic, it fits in the hand uh rather well. We've got the two uh {vocalsound} uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath {vocalsound} we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally.
Project Manager: What's the use uh of the t turbo button already?
User Interface: This is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh {disfmarker} through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you {disfmarker} quickly rather th
Project Manager: Ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops.
User Interface: Yeah. Well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops. But normally with uh {disfmarker} it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: And we we do have one more functionality. If you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button, so it switch ons the switch ons the T_V_.
User Interface: The T_V_ yeah.
Project Manager: Which one?
User Interface: The s the turbo button.
Industrial Designer: The turbo button.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button.
Industrial Designer: Additional button.
Marketing: What this button for?
User Interface: This is a teletext button. So once you press that then you get teletext
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To navigate it through th through teletext.
User Interface: To navigate yeah.
Marketing: But if you want to go to page seven hundred?
Industrial Designer: That's right, that's right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {gap} with the wheel it's easy.
Marketing: How man
User Interface: Well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing, you press the {gap} the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go {disfmarker} you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't understand it. Can you repeat it? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well you can you can press press the teletext button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then you then you can you can f
Industrial Designer: So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And you can tele
Marketing: Ah okay okay. Okay. Okay okay.
Industrial Designer: yeah,
User Interface: Mm uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext, they are no more for channel or vol volume.
Marketing: Okay. I see. I see. Okay. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And this is the uh the infrared uh port.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
User Interface: Also the top of the banana.
Project Manager: Excellent.
User Interface: So. And then we have
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana.
Project Manager: Calling. Excellent.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas?
User Interface: Actually they do.
Project Manager: Oh.
User Interface: That's that's yeah that's uh that's form and function in the one in the one uh object.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So it always means, whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's like antennas.
User Interface: Yeah. So.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: But yeah that's um that's just like {disfmarker} that's an attractive um base station.
Project Manager: Great. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So.
Project Manager: So, what else?
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Is it really weight? Is it light or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is very light.
Project Manager: Yeah, they're light.
User Interface: It's it's uh it's about the weight of a banana.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: You know, to give you the correct look and feel.
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Ok
Industrial Designer: And we have put these different colours so that people don't mistake them mistake it as a banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's you know a child comes and so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Yeah yeah yeah, I see. I under I understand.
User Interface: I think a child would try to eat it anyway, so maybe we should
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: consider that. {gap} maybe health and safety aspects.
Project Manager: Ah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh we didn't think of that yet. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So for the power source, apparently you still {disfmarker} you you want to use both solar cells and batteries.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah that's right.
Project Manager: Uh you mean {disfmarker} okay. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station.
Project Manager: Yeah, where are going to {disfmarker} where are you are you going to place them?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm. It'll It'll be always at top somewhere at there.
User Interface: If I was gonna place them I'd put them on the on the top here since that's like uh the black bit
Project Manager: You have enough surface? You {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: but yeah I don't I really don't think it's necessary to have the solar cells anymore.
Industrial Designer: Yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: so that that is {gap}.
Project Manager: What will be the autonomy? Roughly?
User Interface: The what sorry?
Project Manager: The autonomy. Autonomy.
User Interface: What do you mean?
Project Manager: Uh I mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station?
Marketing: How long the {disfmarker} how long the bit the batteries long.
User Interface: Ah. Ah. A long time.
Project Manager: Yeah. A long {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} No no no,
Industrial Designer: Eight to ten eight to ten hours.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it can {disfmarker} it should be weeks.
Industrial Designer: N most {disfmarker} no most of the time it's not being used.
Project Manager: Yeah, so it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah but y people don't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wanna leave it on the couch so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So when when you are making it on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's used only when you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. No eight or eight or ten hours of working.
User Interface: Ah, okay.
Industrial Designer: If you are just leaving like that it'll be much longer.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah. F weeks.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's right.
Project Manager: Right. Next slide?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And we are having the speakers regular chip for control. Pricing is {disfmarker} was a factor so that's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip. And uh that's it.
Project Manager: Okay. {gap} Okay. Those really sounds very good.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nothing else to add?
User Interface: It seems to be falling over.
Marketing: I l yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: I like I like it. Maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the {vocalsound} the multifunctional buttons. Looks a bit {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You want to have more functional buttons?
Marketing: Looks a bit puzzled uh I dunno how to say {vocalsound} that.
Industrial Designer: You are not convinced.
Marketing: You {disfmarker} the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it's teletext or not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not not many, we we want to keep it simple. So that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case, that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that, the channel buttons, they baco become the scrolling buttons.
Marketing: And the volume button will will become {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's up to you, means.
Project Manager: Well in fact b both will be {disfmarker} could be useful, navigating through teletext.
Industrial Designer: Now that {disfmarker} Means let's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits.
User Interface: Or can move between positions in the in the number.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: And what about people who want to use digits? Butto real buttons?
Project Manager: Wow.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing, they they don't care about the buttons any more. And anyway {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff?
User Interface: It's all automatic.
Marketing: It's all automatic.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Okay yeah it's fine.
Project Manager: Very good uh yeah {disfmarker}
Marketing: W we are living in a wonderful world. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} you th yeah.
User Interface: Uh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Bananas everywhere.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Automatically configure {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we have to go through now evaluations.
Industrial Designer: Evalua yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So your slides are ready?
Marketing: S
Project Manager: Uh you're four I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So this is one, which one is this one?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. I {vocalsound} I const I constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements. And each criteria is {vocalsound} will be evaluated it's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it's true or is {disfmarker} or if it's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven.
Industrial Designer: Why this strange factor of seven?
Marketing: Because i I'm sorry. Sorry.
Industrial Designer: Usually I have seen that scales are from one to ten.
Marketing: Ah yeah. It's from {disfmarker} sorry, it's from one to seven. It's from from one to seven sorry. Because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale,
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Num number {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm a I I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay fine, got the idea.
Project Manager: So to have {disfmarker} in order to have enough granularity {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry?
Project Manager: it's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation.
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: The variance is mi it's is minimal.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay, okay, great.
Marketing: I'm um answering your question.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Go ahead.
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that's the criteria I I found more useful. I think I sh I {vocalsound} I could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Marketing: And we all four could range
Industrial Designer: Okay. Yeah yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: could evaluate the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So you can say fancy, handy. Handy.
Marketing: Okay let's let's evaluate if it's fancy or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's fancy, according to me.
Marketing: Seven but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, six.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S seven.
Industrial Designer: Seven. Seven by me.
Project Manager: Six.
Marketing: I would say seven.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: It's quite fancy.
Industrial Designer: So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No, wait.
User Interface: Yeah uh five.
Project Manager: What do you say seven? Five?
Industrial Designer: Five.
User Interface: Five, maybe maybe maybe six it's it's I guess it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, six point five.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Handy?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Again I'll give seven.
Project Manager: Seven.
User Interface: I'd give it a six like I'd I think it's probably more handy than my current remote,'cause of the scroll wheels
Marketing: Six.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote.
Project Manager: So seven, seven,
Industrial Designer: Seven for me.
Project Manager: six,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Six.
Project Manager: six point five. Functional. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll give five.
Project Manager: Four.
Marketing: I would say {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Well it depends when you say functional, do you mean it does what we want it to do, or d does what it does, you know, can it make you coffee?
Marketing: Everything ar
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh for a remote control, does he have all the {gap}
User Interface: You know.
Marketing: Mm everything {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. {gap}
Project Manager: you could expect.
Marketing: It's compared to the all
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: remote controls.
User Interface: That's before {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's right. The standards. What is available in the market off the shelf.
User Interface: Yeah. I have to say four.
Marketing: Actually I don't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro
User Interface: Well it's not a universal remote. Remember we're focus we're supposed to focus just on T_V_s.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah it's not an univer but it's for all kind of T_V_s?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Well all T_V_s but only T_ {disfmarker} only T_V_s I guess.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's universal but for T_V_s. {vocalsound} So s uh four?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Five.
Project Manager: Five?
User Interface: Four.
Project Manager: Four.
Marketing: Four. Four.
Industrial Designer: So four point two?
User Interface: Just four.
Project Manager: Four.
Industrial Designer: {gap} four. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Obviously there are some outliers so {disfmarker}
Marketing: So four?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay cool? Cool device.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There I'll give it seven.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It means cool features, like new features actually.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Which {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For a T_V_ the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature. And then the scroll buttons are again cool features. We don't have L_C_D_ for it but that we decided we don't want to have.
Project Manager: Yeah. Seven.
Marketing: I would say five.
User Interface: I'll say five.
Project Manager: Six.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Seven.
Project Manager: Plus six, I say {disfmarker} I said seven.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So it's six.
User Interface: S yeah.
Marketing: You said seven? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'Cause it's five five seven seven so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Uh, okay, definitely easy to use.
Industrial Designer: Definitely seven.
User Interface: Seven.
Project Manager: Seven. Seven. And you? Outl you are not lik outlier.
Marketing: Five. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Seven {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay okay okay okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Sorry, I have them {disfmarker}
User Interface: Alright, now here's the sixty million Dollar question,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: well, twenty five twenty five Euro question.
Project Manager: Of course I'll buy the {gap} banana. {gap}
User Interface: What do you what do you guys reckon?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'll say five.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: I'll say five.
Project Manager: Twenty five Euros. {vocalsound} Cheap.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I find it quite cheap {vocalsound} actually.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno. If i i it depends, if you live in in Switzerland or you live in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, so the target price is for all Europe, or only for rich countries? {vocalsound} It's more targeting U_K_ or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know. Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So this is selling costs, not production costs.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah this is the the initial specifications.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah sure. Um {disfmarker} Five.
Marketing: I would say six. It's quite cheap actually.
User Interface: I'd say two.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Aw, should be nice in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't want a banana on my {vocalsound} living room table, a banana remote.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No but it's really handy actually if you see.
User Interface: It is handy, it's handy, but it it's terrible.
Industrial Designer: It's it's so handy. And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's kitsch.
Industrial Designer: Anyb anybody who comes here {vocalsound} {disfmarker} anybody who comes to your home he'll at least ask once what is this.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, but it's not a positive thing.
Industrial Designer: It's a very positive thing if you see like that {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Well, you know, it's it's handy, it's ergonomic, but it's a banana.
Project Manager: Well, don't forget well, don't for don't forget who we're targeting also who are f f who are wh
Industrial Designer: Youngsters.
Project Manager: yeah, youngst youngst
User Interface: Yeah but it says I, I would buy this, so.
Marketing: Actually maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} if you would be young.
Marketing: Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not telling that you are young. Li li like a teenager for instance.
User Interface: {vocalsound} No, it's I. I would buy {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay you're you're crazy teenager and you like fun things.
Industrial Designer: You want to flaunt.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} with your girlfriend or something.
Project Manager: Yeah, you want to show the beautiful banana you have. {gap}
User Interface: S s
Industrial Designer: Or might be it does some other kind of thing but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Still I I'd say two. I don't think I {disfmarker} at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control, really.
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, crazy.
Project Manager: Okay so you s you give {disfmarker}
User Interface: I can say, maybe there is a market for it, I dunno.
Project Manager: oh yeah yeah I know I know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you say two.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I say five.
Project Manager: F I d I say five. You say?
Marketing: I change the question. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So what's the new question?
Industrial Designer: And you have saved it?
Marketing: So yeah upload the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You'll have to reload.
Project Manager: Uh yeah, I think so. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay, so, it depends if uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah it's two different situations. If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one.
Project Manager: Yeah that's two different question.
User Interface: If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro, if that was like my limit, maybe I would buy it. Because the other twenty five Euro remote controls are probably gonna look
Project Manager: Ugly.
User Interface: worse than a banana. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: They're not going to be as {disfmarker} And they they might not be a as easy as this {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it {disfmarker} yeah this is gonna f you know handy to use.
Industrial Designer: yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: So? What now? What range?
Project Manager: I stick to five.
Industrial Designer: S
User Interface: Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I go slightly up. Six.
Marketing: Six.
User Interface: so I dunno. Um.
Project Manager: W we have six, five {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'd give it I'd give it a
Project Manager: Three {vocalsound}
User Interface: I give it a four now.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Six? Six?
Project Manager: So we are six, five, four {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six, five, four.
Marketing: Six, so it's uh five point five, or less.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So and last question, will I change my rem change my remote control from Mando banana. Um, zero. No uh we can't. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So one.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Actually yeah, I {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No uh let's say I'll put two.
User Interface: I'd say three, I mean my remote control is kinda {disfmarker} at home is pretty terrible. If it was {disfmarker} change my remote control of my D_V_D_ player for a Mando banana then I would be more inclined to
Project Manager: It's for the T_V_.
User Interface: but uh {disfmarker}'cause it's really bad but uh {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'd say a three. {gap}
Industrial Designer: I'll still give it five. Yeah.
Marketing: Five?
Project Manager: Two three five two three fi and two.
Marketing: {gap} You are romantic, really.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it's somewhere three point five I think.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I would say two.
Project Manager: So it's r Yeah, three point five. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Who is the outlier?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh wh {vocalsound} you said five?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no you say five, he is the outlier.
Industrial Designer: No I said five.
Project Manager: Okay just just do a sum.
Marketing: I don't know if {vocalsound} it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's not very promising but you know we're not young trendsetters. {vocalsound}
Marketing: No because there are more {disfmarker} yeah, we shouldn't sum like that.
Project Manager: Well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob
Marketing: Because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Otherwise we wouldn't {disfmarker} we will not sell.
User Interface: Is there some some formula you're using that says you have to sum them up?
Marketing: Uh no I didn't {gap} anything. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well just leave it at that then.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oops.
Project Manager: So maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling. We can had uh have a {disfmarker} out of these numbers, which which is that well we should go for it.
Marketing: Yeah, the uh {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Problem with connectors? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want me to sum
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it's it's funny. {vocalsound}
Marketing: o I think it's not {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it, so.
Project Manager: Okay. So let's move uh let's move on.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, {gap} now now we have to mm to estimate {vocalsound} uh the cost okay. So I prepare an Excel sh uh an Excel sheet. Um well we are going to calculate the production costs. We should we should be below twelve point five. So I already uh put some pu some numbers here, okay. We are going to go through {vocalsound} {disfmarker} so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing. So it appears that there were things that we didn't thought about. Uh and also things that I uh I d I forget to uh to put like solar cells.
User Interface: Well we decided against the solar cells so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Oh yeah finally we say no.
Industrial Designer: Solar cells, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, we said no to that.
Project Manager: Okay so let's let's go let's go let go through all the lines. So hand dynamo. This something we didn't thought about. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: You mean, charging it by shaking the banana.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so we we stick to battery, one.
Industrial Designer: To bring the cost {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: No kinetic also. I don't I don't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo.
User Interface: Well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah you have to {disfmarker} ah okay I see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Crazy. Okay. So those banana is falling. Let's go ahead. So we we st only have one for battery. Uh then for electronics um so I didn't put anything for the {gap}.
Industrial Designer: So we have the regular chip on the print, which is one.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And that's it.
Project Manager: Okay. No {disfmarker} so we hin
Industrial Designer: And we have sample speaker.
Project Manager: Yeah so one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. {gap} the cost of that is very high.
Project Manager: Ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing. So we are {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well actually that that {disfmarker} no that sample speaker is not {disfmarker} we we're not using that, we're just using the the very beep {disfmarker} simple beep,
Project Manager: The beep.
User Interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything.
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: That's what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay so I'll remove it.
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: S
User Interface: I say that {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: So don't we need a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And we have sev
Project Manager: Oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we we'll put some extras, if there is something.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe. We'll see later.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay so in {disfmarker} for the case um {vocalsound} I put single curved.
Industrial Designer: Okay. To reduce the cost, it's okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well, wait a second,
Project Manager: Because we have two things.
User Interface: no, it's it's double curved, it's got a c, it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's got all the directions
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: so don't worry. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well d yeah it's monotonic {vocalsound} but
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's got a {gap} direction. {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's got {disfmarker} but if you hold it if you hold it that way that's two curved, one on this side, one on that side, but they're opposite sides.
Project Manager: Well. What a {disfmarker} what i if I put one here.
User Interface: This is actually {disfmarker} I mean this probably
Marketing: Actually what's the differen
User Interface: this probably actually costs more than three
Project Manager: Yeah so let's put one here in the {gap} then instead of single
User Interface: if you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: oka all right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we stick to plastic, it cost nothing.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's right.
User Interface: Well {gap} {disfmarker} no didn't we say we wanted to do a rubber {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, it's too {disfmarker} no.
User Interface: {gap} if you drop it?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too expensive.
Project Manager: It's too expensive. We're already at eleven.
User Interface: Well when {disfmarker} okay. Well we we'll come back we'll come back and see if we can fit it in.
Project Manager: Okay so I put rubber one. Okay so special colour, yellow.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh for the interface we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We don't have any push buttons.
User Interface: No, we have two push buttons.
Project Manager: We have three.
Industrial Designer: No that is a scroll wheel itself, it'll be put in that.
User Interface: Huh.
Project Manager: No no. We have two scroll, and we have three push buttons.
Industrial Designer: Ah okay, okay.
User Interface: Uh.
Industrial Designer: Okay, okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay it's gonna have to be plastic.
Marketing: Actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two, because there is another chip here.
Project Manager: No it's {gap} no chip. This is just radio frequency {gap}. Th This is no chip.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah but
Industrial Designer: No. There's no chip there.
Marketing: you need {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It just emits the signal.
Project Manager: It's just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the receiver accepts it and that's it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Fo i it does nothing actually?
Project Manager: No. Just {disfmarker} only {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Just se sends the signal, that's it.
User Interface: It's a recharger thing and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay w we didn't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons.
User Interface: Well I actually did um think about it myself {vocalsound} but I thought you know {disfmarker} because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a {disfmarker} instead of a turbo button
Project Manager: Yeah,
User Interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: You know. So I mean if we're if we're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that.
Project Manager: Okay. So no L_C_D_, so for {disfmarker} we have no button supplements, right?
Industrial Designer: Yep. No.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because {disfmarker} oh no, these are these are for colours, co and special forms, special colours and special materials.
User Interface: Yeah. No we're not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: we don't need anything special for the buttons.
Project Manager: Okay so we are over budget.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So first thing which we should take care of is,
User Interface: Make it plastic instead of rubber.
Industrial Designer: instead of rubber, let it be plastic.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And then we're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents.
Industrial Designer: And uh that much money will be required for the base station, which is not there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: So mayb in fact n we have to put two here
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: because it cost nothing.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of {vocalsound} plastic.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which {disfmarker} the cord and everything which'll go {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff.
User Interface: Does that include charging circuitry and everything? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe. Okay good. Wha
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Excellent.
User Interface: So what do we do with the extra profits?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we'll invest in R_ and D_.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} The next fruit.
Project Manager: Yeah. So well we're under the the the cost. So we can go to {disfmarker} through to project evaluation. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy. Would {disfmarker} yeah, would buy.
Project Manager: Sorry?
User Interface: No we have a product which none of us would buy. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah because th th the evaluation project {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which is different. Which is different. None of us will buy it.
User Interface: No it's people in in in Milan and uh in Paris that are gonna buy it.
Marketing: Ah would buy, yeah.
User Interface: We're n
Marketing: Massively, yeah.
User Interface: yeah. We're not in Milan or Paris.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Okay. Uh you have been in Milan a couple of times, so.
Project Manager: This is a battery. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Actually there were a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And you said the lowest {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is what we {disfmarker} which you can mm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: S Detachable battery.
Project Manager: It did {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: That's'cause I'm sick of Milan.
Marketing: Yeah, for the batteries {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Extra battery, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay so um {vocalsound} project process.
Project Manager: Exac {vocalsound} Well in fact I I did not know {vocalsound} I didn't know really what to say here.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say. So I don't I don't I don't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Should it be more like um like a status of of the {disfmarker} these meetings in fact.
User Interface: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen, not that much.
User Interface: I dunno I think we had a fair bit of creativity.
Project Manager: Oh yeah it's really creative.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And uh but I think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um {vocalsound} like a focus group with the actual people we're targeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: They like that.
User Interface: see if they like it.
Project Manager: Yeah maybe we should go through, yeah an uh evaluation.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless.
Industrial Designer: Biased.
Project Manager: So maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation {vocalsound} in the streets like asking to young peoples well, do you like to have a banana as a remote control.
User Interface: Yeah. Because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well, to see you know how to how to market this thing.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface:'Cause you know if {disfmarker} well I mean maybe you don't wanna give all your kids their own remote because they'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a T_V_ for each kid, then you know, banana remote control could be fun for them as well.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Might have to draw a face on it. So but I think that's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market.
Project Manager: Yep. Any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time? Dunno, oranges?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. The cost of the thing can be made more than might be. Because I think it's just the optimal, what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. I think there are ways we could maybe simplify the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Interface.
User Interface: Well just the the the circuit board that we're using inside,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I'm not sure really how complicated our um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: our needs are. I mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers, do we really need an integrated circuit to
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: you know to process that.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on T_V_.
Industrial Designer: That's right.
Marketing: The complexity shouldn't be much higher.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: For {disfmarker} you said if it good for D_V_D_ then I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff, that would be rather cool. I think that's actually something that should be in version two, is the ability to you know to control things other than the T_V_
Industrial Designer: Integrate.
User Interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Very good. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} What else?
Project Manager: Well done. I think we we can go
Industrial Designer: Okay. Home?
Project Manager: home.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Happily satisfied. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} Okay so thanks very much.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Bye.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
User Interface: Thank you.
Marketing: Bye. | Project Manager started meeting on the detailed design of the remote control. User Interface and Industrial Designer gave a presentation on the prototype with a banana leaf base station and a hand-sized remote with two scroll wheels, the turbo button, the teletext button, the calling button, the rechargeable-batteries power source, and the speaker regular chip. Next, the group evaluated based on Marketing's list of user requirement criteria. Then, groupmates discussed the cost estimation, including the component production cost. They agreed to use plastic instead of rubber material for the dual chips. Also, they agreed not to use LCD and no button supplements to avoid over budget. Lastly, the group discussed the project process. The group agreed they had creativity, while User Interface suggested that they should find out more target markets. Besides, Project Manager suggested doing a street survey. Also, User Interface suggested that they could simplify the interface and the circuit board. | qmsum |
What did the meeting discuss about the school reopening date?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd. tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much--diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase--because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at--and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today--if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable--perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Sian Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Sian, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Sian.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Sian, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Sian Gwenllian. Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Sian. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5. 6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function--we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places--from critical workers and vulnerable children--we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Sian. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Sian Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments--myself, obviously, and colleagues in education--with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable--and our definition of'vulnerable'is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales--could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can--if the age of the child is appropriate--just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate--so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available--recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities--and the vast, vast majority of them do--have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney--colleague-director--have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools--profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units--that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups--they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of PS1. 25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being--recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy--in the widest possible terms--that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries--firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling--sorry, vulnerable children doubling--after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are--that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that--. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response--local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary--briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child--a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position--I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases--
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: --but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think--we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are--to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our'Stay Safe. Stay Learning'policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll--. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that--and a number of them have already done this--have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet--but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that--or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there--schools have been proactive--but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready--I hope I've explained that correctly--and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand--and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations--I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear--and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website--how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages--that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well--I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across--that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy--for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children--'children'; they're all children to me--young people can get themselves--. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely--
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct--this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing--on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation--to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter--not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | Hefin David AM raised a question concerning the date schools might reopen since there had been an increase in the number of students who had returned to some schools. However, Kirsty Williams AM had not been given an exact date by the chief medical officer and the public had to wait for the advice of the medical and scientific advisers. Now, the only thing for certain was the five principles that had been published earlier that day concerning the school reopening issues. | qmsum |
What was included in Kirsty Williams AM's explanation about five principles?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd. tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much--diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase--because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at--and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today--if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable--perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Sian Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Sian, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Sian.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Sian, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Sian Gwenllian. Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Sian. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5. 6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function--we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places--from critical workers and vulnerable children--we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Sian. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Sian Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments--myself, obviously, and colleagues in education--with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable--and our definition of'vulnerable'is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales--could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can--if the age of the child is appropriate--just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate--so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available--recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities--and the vast, vast majority of them do--have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney--colleague-director--have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools--profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units--that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups--they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of PS1. 25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being--recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy--in the widest possible terms--that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries--firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling--sorry, vulnerable children doubling--after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are--that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that--. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response--local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary--briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child--a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position--I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases--
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: --but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think--we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are--to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our'Stay Safe. Stay Learning'policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll--. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that--and a number of them have already done this--have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet--but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that--or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there--schools have been proactive--but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready--I hope I've explained that correctly--and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand--and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations--I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear--and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website--how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages--that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well--I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across--that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy--for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children--'children'; they're all children to me--young people can get themselves--. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely--
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct--this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing--on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation--to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter--not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | Firstly, any decision to have more children returning to school made should align with the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of students and the staff. Secondly, new decisions made from the education ministry should be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, communication with the parents and staff were crucial and they should be given time to adapt to the changes. Moreover, certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting should also be considered. Lastly, to have adequate numbers of workforce available in order to assure those settings as safe as possible, and how to tackle with the challenges about keeping social distancing in the context of education or school transport issues should be taken into account. | qmsum |
What did the meeting discuss about the impact on particular children with intense need?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd. tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much--diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase--because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at--and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today--if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable--perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Sian Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Sian, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Sian.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Sian, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Sian Gwenllian. Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Sian. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5. 6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function--we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places--from critical workers and vulnerable children--we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Sian. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Sian Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments--myself, obviously, and colleagues in education--with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable--and our definition of'vulnerable'is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales--could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can--if the age of the child is appropriate--just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate--so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available--recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities--and the vast, vast majority of them do--have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney--colleague-director--have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools--profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units--that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups--they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of PS1. 25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being--recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy--in the widest possible terms--that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries--firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling--sorry, vulnerable children doubling--after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are--that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that--. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response--local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary--briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child--a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position--I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases--
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: --but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think--we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are--to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our'Stay Safe. Stay Learning'policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll--. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that--and a number of them have already done this--have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet--but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that--or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there--schools have been proactive--but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready--I hope I've explained that correctly--and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand--and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations--I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear--and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website--how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages--that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well--I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across--that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy--for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children--'children'; they're all children to me--young people can get themselves--. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely--
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct--this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing--on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation--to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter--not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | Dawn Bowden AM asked about the methods to include more vulnerable children to the hubs and to begin with, Kirsty Williams AM suggested that this challenge was faced by the four nations. The Welsh Government, together with local authorities and local education systems were looking to support families whose children had special education needs in a number of ways, including to decrease risks for hiring a social worker. Moreover, Dawn Bowden AM assumed that appropriate referral mechanisms should still be in place, which was agreed by Kirsty Williams AM who added that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children. | qmsum |
How did Kirsty Williams AM plan to narrow the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd. tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much--diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase--because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at--and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today--if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable--perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Sian Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Sian, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Sian.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Sian, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Sian Gwenllian. Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Sian. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5. 6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function--we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places--from critical workers and vulnerable children--we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Sian. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Sian Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments--myself, obviously, and colleagues in education--with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable--and our definition of'vulnerable'is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales--could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can--if the age of the child is appropriate--just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate--so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available--recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities--and the vast, vast majority of them do--have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney--colleague-director--have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools--profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units--that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups--they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of PS1. 25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being--recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy--in the widest possible terms--that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries--firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling--sorry, vulnerable children doubling--after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are--that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that--. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response--local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary--briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child--a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position--I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases--
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: --but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think--we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are--to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our'Stay Safe. Stay Learning'policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll--. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that--and a number of them have already done this--have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet--but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that--or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there--schools have been proactive--but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready--I hope I've explained that correctly--and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand--and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations--I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear--and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website--how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages--that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well--I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across--that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy--for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children--'children'; they're all children to me--young people can get themselves--. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely--
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct--this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing--on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation--to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter--not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | Kirsty Williams AM first introduced the difficult situation as being face by these group of children, whose educational journey would be slightly different with others. And it was always important that children could have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. To tackle the challenge, Hwb digital learning platform had been heavily invested and the government had also invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which were available to all families. Meanwhile, connection to the Internet would further be assured. | qmsum |
What did working with local authorities actually mean?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd. tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much--diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase--because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at--and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today--if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable--perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Sian Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Sian, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Sian.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Sian, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Sian Gwenllian. Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Sian. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5. 6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function--we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places--from critical workers and vulnerable children--we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Sian. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Sian Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments--myself, obviously, and colleagues in education--with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable--and our definition of'vulnerable'is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales--could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can--if the age of the child is appropriate--just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate--so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available--recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities--and the vast, vast majority of them do--have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney--colleague-director--have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools--profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units--that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups--they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of PS1. 25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being--recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy--in the widest possible terms--that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries--firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling--sorry, vulnerable children doubling--after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are--that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that--. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response--local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary--briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child--a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position--I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases--
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: --but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think--we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are--to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our'Stay Safe. Stay Learning'policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll--. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that--and a number of them have already done this--have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet--but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that--or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there--schools have been proactive--but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready--I hope I've explained that correctly--and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand--and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations--I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear--and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website--how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages--that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well--I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across--that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy--for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children--'children'; they're all children to me--young people can get themselves--. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely--
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct--this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing--on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation--to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter--not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | Kirsty Williams AM shared that the government were working closely with local authorities to understand what school had already done, for instance lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children. Schools should make sure that students'access to current education patterns were available to all. Besides, nationwide purchase of digital learning tools, the government was also looking to purchase and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity on a national level. Last but not least, the government and local authorities were together continuing to identify education gap and decided to repurpose some of the resources which had been previously identified for the EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap. | qmsum |
What did Kirsty Williams AM expect for new examinations and school qualifications?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd. tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much--diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase--because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at--and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today--if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable--perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Sian Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Sian, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Sian.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Sian, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Sian Gwenllian. Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Sian. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5. 6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function--we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places--from critical workers and vulnerable children--we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Sian. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Sian Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments--myself, obviously, and colleagues in education--with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable--and our definition of'vulnerable'is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales--could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can--if the age of the child is appropriate--just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate--so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available--recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities--and the vast, vast majority of them do--have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney--colleague-director--have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools--profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units--that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups--they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of PS1. 25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being--recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy--in the widest possible terms--that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries--firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling--sorry, vulnerable children doubling--after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are--that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that--. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response--local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary--briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child--a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position--I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases--
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: --but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think--we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are--to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our'Stay Safe. Stay Learning'policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll--. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that--and a number of them have already done this--have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet--but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that--or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there--schools have been proactive--but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready--I hope I've explained that correctly--and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand--and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations--I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear--and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website--how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages--that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well--I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across--that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy--for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children--'children'; they're all children to me--young people can get themselves--. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely--
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct--this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing--on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation--to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter--not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | Janet Finch-Saunders AM asked about how A-level and GCSE would be awarded in alignment with Qualifications Wales and Kirsty Williams AM explained that to cancel this summer's exam series was the only clear decision although it was devastating for both students and teachers. Currently, to grade the performance, teachers would first be asked to submit a grade they believed that the student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And teachers would have a range of data and their own professional judgment when grading. Once that information had been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there would be a process by which that data would be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation. | qmsum |
What did the meeting discuss to assure higher and further education?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34. 21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd. tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much--diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase--because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at--and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today--if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable--perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Sian Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Sian, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Sian.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Sian, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Sian Gwenllian. Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Sian. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5. 6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function--we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places--from critical workers and vulnerable children--we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Sian. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Sian Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments--myself, obviously, and colleagues in education--with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable--and our definition of'vulnerable'is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales--could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can--if the age of the child is appropriate--just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate--so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available--recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities--and the vast, vast majority of them do--have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney--colleague-director--have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools--profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units--that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups--they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of PS1. 25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being--recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy--in the widest possible terms--that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries--firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling--sorry, vulnerable children doubling--after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are--that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that--. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response--local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary--briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child--a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position--I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases--
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: --but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think--we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are--to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our'Stay Safe. Stay Learning'policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll--. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that--and a number of them have already done this--have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet--but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that--or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there--schools have been proactive--but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready--I hope I've explained that correctly--and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand--and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations--I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear--and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website--how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages--that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well--I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across--that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy--for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children--'children'; they're all children to me--young people can get themselves--. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely--
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct--this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing--on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation--to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter--not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | To get the students who planned to enter college for the next step, Kirsty Williams AM introduced that last week, on Hwb, they were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. On the Hwb website, students would be able to see the subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students could avail themselves of. There was also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that was report writing or academic writing. Similar preparation like the help from career advice website was also accessible. Meanwhile, new materials and resources would be developed. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about policies and measures related to free-school-meal children during the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | According to Kirsty, they are actually in an unusual situation but they were trying to create a system where it would be seamless and it would not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. One particular group of children and young people that they hoped would be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category was young carers. The basic principle they used was that even if it was a minority of children who went to those schools and were vulnerable, they deserved and needed the support through the school. | qmsum |
How would special schools fit into the new purpose arrangement?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | Already, local authorities were making different provisions. Even in special schools, there would be children whose parents would be key workers. Therefore, they would expect them to expect those sChools to apply the same principle. They would have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school. Thus, they would look to cater for that within the original school. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about ideas about timescales for setting out what approach would be to handling the lack of exams.
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | Kirsty believed that it was a devastating decision to have been taken. But they had done so on the very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. They were dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. Therefore, their best attempts would be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exam's day in August, but that had to be caveated by the fact that they were dealing with difficult circumstances. With regard to AS-levels, no final decision has been made for exactly how those students would be treated. There were a range of options that could be used. With regard to other types of qualifications, the vast majority of BTECs was a modular continually-assessed piece of work, and they would have every expectation that BTECs would be able to be awarded. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about issues related to the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | According to Kirsty, they had been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that had been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. They had got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students. There was still a safety net idea. Colleges had indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they would have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis. Any Welsh Government support going to stay, whatever the circumstances were. They would do their best to ensure that there would be no disruption to EMA. | qmsum |
What were their opinions on support or changes of circumstances?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | Actually, they did not anticipate any change in the approach to students. Individual student circumstances could well change and their expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. There would undoubtedly in some cases be really typical challenges to service delivery, simply because organizations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they were reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. They instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions had campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease had progressed, they had seen lessons being learned from the support for students who were in isolation coming from there to the UK. | qmsum |
What's their attitude towards the question whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | In Huw's opinion, there were lessons that would need to be taken on board. There were established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions was that they would complete their course of study. Therefore, they were confident that that system would be robust and would make sure that the students were getting a course of learning that met their needs. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about problems and related advices concerning vulnerable learners.
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | According to Kirsty, this was a really worrying time for children and young people. For schools and institutions, they had the formal NHS counselling services to the check-ins. They were concerned that for some children, their access to their counselling was via their school. They knew that and they were just double checking the capacity of online counseling that already existed - online counselling tools that children already used because they did not want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. | qmsum |
Why did they want to keep schools going as long as possible?
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | Because that routine of going into school and that normality was one that they had needed and wanted to maintain. They needed to understand, and Kirsty thought that they would also have to recognize, that this support would have to be ongoing once they were back to normal, and they would have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who would have lived through this experience. They were incredibly resilient, and they had been the champions of some of our public health messages. They were so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Sian Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Sian today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could--? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday--I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities--some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently--I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying,'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.'So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services'care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate--
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange,'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.'My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group--and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people--is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the--. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others'houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad--. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just--.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this--and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that--the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying,'Well, what's going to happen to that?'Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation--and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear--is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate--again, I know this is all a bit'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable--that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly--?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well--. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking--. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you--. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose--you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible. ]--mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next--? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think--?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we'll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It's likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that's the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses--people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents'point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially--and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns--[Interruption. ]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual--[Inaudible. ]-- around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent--let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter. ] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me--do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade--I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system--. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We're starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me-- because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working--how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well--your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning--which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren't A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels--no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies--they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board--and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking--
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: --is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister--thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward--content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the--. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions--a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No--just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are--in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to--. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home--
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: --overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students'basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically--last question from me-- have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the--. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure--which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at--we would expect school staff--well-being staff, for instance in school--to be doing check-ins--phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available--so, for instance, Meic website--so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists--online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible--and teachers have been working so hard to do that--is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole'washing your hands'and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just--? Just a supplementary to that--you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service--will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public--
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: --because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying,'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter. ]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services--. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals--if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't--
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question--because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with--from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction--so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open--and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities--to be able to suspend things, direct things--that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off--you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness--in those situations where it's the Government who says'no'to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this--it feels like an awfully long time ago now-- you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | Basically, the Children, Young People and Education Committee's meeting was about the current situations and policies regarding schools, students and staff during the COVID-19 pandemic. Dealing with this pandemic was extremely challenging and the government had to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. The main concern as the education Minister was to protect all staff and pupils in schools and other educational settings. Their belief was that no child shall miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. From next week, schools would have a new proposal which would help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak. The key was that they were looking at supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning, which included all of those who benefited from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. What they needed to do now was to do all the work together as they were facing the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. | qmsum |
Why did Project Manager say that money was an important part of the project?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Good morning everybody.
Industrial Designer: Good morning.
Project Manager: Oh, everybody is not ready.
User Interface: Uh almost.
Project Manager: Alright.
User Interface: Ready.
Project Manager: Okay, let's go. So, we're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes. Um so I will be uh Sebastian the Project Manager. Um you are the {disfmarker}
User Interface: I'm uh Michael. I'm the user interface designer.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Hi I'm Guillermo {gap}. I'm the Marketing Expert.
Industrial Designer: And I am Hemant, the industrial designer.
Project Manager: Okay, very good. Thanks for being here. Um so let's have a look to the the agenda. So, we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh {vocalsound} to make {disfmarker} to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here. Um then we'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it. So, the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control. Um it should be original, trendy, and also user friendly. As usual we will follow the the project method um {vocalsound} that we are using in the {disfmarker} in our company. It is in three step as you know. First the functional design. The second's a conceptual design, and then the detailed design. During each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately, individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you've you've you did and what uh we will do next. So first, we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings. So who want to start? Mister {gap}.
User Interface: Ah well if no one else wants to, yeah. Okay so, want me to draw my favourite animal.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Well, I don't really have a favourite animal, but um
Project Manager: You have one in mind?
User Interface: uh I think I have one in mind, so uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'm gonna {vocalsound} {gap} about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board. The spider has a {disfmarker} spider lives in a web {vocalsound} and uh it has eight legs, and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions. Unless it's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes. There are some spiders that live in like {disfmarker} that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web. And uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh {disfmarker} build a new web somewhere else. So I think they did this in uh in Charlotte's Web that movie that little uh {disfmarker} well it's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So, that's my animal.
Project Manager: Th thank you. Very interesting. {vocalsound} Guillermo you want to?
Marketing: {vocalsound}'kay {vocalsound} I dunno why, but {vocalsound} when I was a child I I wanted to be a a panther
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} not a pink panther,
Industrial Designer: But don't you think it's very difficult to draw a panther?
Marketing: or maybe yes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It would be very funny for us.
Marketing: Uh yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: So bad I don't like it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay it's a friendly panther.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Maybe it's happy'cause it just ate someone.
Marketing: Yeah maybe {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um. Actually, honestly I I I dunno what's what's his it's be behaviour, I dunno if if it's the male who who hunts or it's the female uh, I I I have watched that lions di didn't hunt it's the the female lions who who hunt, so {disfmarker} but {vocalsound} I like it because it's fast, and it's black as well, so it can he {disfmarker} it can hide itself very easily and it's it's {disfmarker} it looks like um {vocalsound} powerful, strong, uh I dunno. I I watch a a film about a black panther when I was a child and {vocalsound} I was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Thank you.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Hemant.
Industrial Designer: Um sure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So you don't like pink panthers? {vocalsound}
Marketing: I like it {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {gap} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Thanks. This lapel is coming out once in a while. It's not very strong. Okay. So, not the favourite animal, but I think I'll draw elephant.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll try to draw elephant {vocalsound}. It's a problem. Okay, thanks. Okay so, elephant goes like this, {gap} and then it has four feet {vocalsound}. I don't know whether there's any dist there should be any distance or not, but I think this is the easiest. And then we have it's trunk. And yep something like this {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: An eye, cute {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Poor elephant {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} and sometimes they have a hump. It seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way {disfmarker} a different way of walking. So when they walk, wherever they are going to put their first feet, the second feet will always be. When they'll come to that position the second, the third feet will be there. That's the way they walk. And that's very peculiar about them. None of the other animals walk like this. And they are very useful to human beings. At least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something, or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another, elephants were very useful. And they are found in um usually the warm countries. And um they are the biggest terrestrial animal. That's what I know about them. So, that's what I wanted to tell about elephants.
User Interface: So is this uh an Indian or an African elephant,'cause you haven't drawn the ears?
Industrial Designer: There are two kind of uh yeah, they are very different, Indian and African elephants. So Indian elephant is having one bump, I think, and the African have two. And then there's a difference in the trunk of the animals, these elephants who are Indian and {disfmarker} So at some {disfmarker} for some elephants it's {disfmarker} the trunk is having one {disfmarker} Do we have some message there?
Project Manager: Yes. We have to {disfmarker} I have to catch you,
Industrial Designer: Wind up
Project Manager: sorry. We have to to go through the meeting.
Industrial Designer: ? Okay, some other time.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Thank you.
Project Manager: Thank you {vocalsound}.
User Interface: We can discuss that off-line.
Project Manager: Yeah we'll discuss a f a fly or do {disfmarker} we'll do another meeting abo on elephants.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so another important part of the project is about money, uh and about {disfmarker} so about finances. So {vocalsound} we should target selling price of twenty-five Euro for this remote control and uh we have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} which which would generate a profit of of um {vocalsound} fifty million Euros, okay. And we should target the inter an international market.
User Interface: So could I just ask one question, um is this a stand-alone unit that we're gonna be selling? So it's gonna be you already have a T_V_ but you're buying an extra remote control for it or something?
Project Manager: O this is the {vocalsound} next topic we have to discuss exactly,
User Interface: Okay, alright.
Project Manager: so let's go to it. So um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go. Should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device? Should it be a universal one? And uh etcetera. So um {vocalsound} so I'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go.
User Interface: Okay well, so, it seems the the first thing that they've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wanna make, which seems to {disfmarker} a kind of a little strange if we don't know what the the product is yet, but I guess if that's {disfmarker} if that's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so, I guess we're gonna need to find out what's actually {disfmarker} you know, what people ar are willing to pay for {disfmarker} um what kind of product they're expecting for twenty-five Euro
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control,
Project Manager: Okay I think this is more a job to our
User Interface: so it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: market person yeah.
Industrial Designer: Marketing person.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So we need to close the meeting. Uh we'll have a new meeting soon and uh so {gap} the work every every of you ha have t d to do. So um you have to work on the on the working design, you have to uh work on the technical functions, and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs, alright?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um you will receive some information by emails, i as usual. Thanks for coming today.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Thanks.
Industrial Designer: Thanks.
User Interface: Alright. | User Interface asked a question that whether it would be a stand-alone unit that they are going to be selling. So Project Manager answered that they should decide which kind of remote control they want to go, if it should be a specific remote control to some specific device, or if it should be a universal one. User Interface responded that they need to design the product to fit the expecting twenty-five Euro based on the requirement. Project Manager agreed and invited group mates to input ideas in the next meeting. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
User Interface: Hello {vocalsound}.'Kay.
Project Manager: You all saw the newsflash?
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or you got the same message?
Marketing: Yeah I I just saw it one minute ago.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah sorry.
Industrial Designer: I don't know.
Marketing: When I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I didn't see it yet I think.
User Interface: Newsflash? D did I miss something?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah I received an email so I thought I I can't mail you so I thought I'd just drop it in the folder, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah pretty much.
Industrial Designer: Hey what's wrong with my computer?
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Is it unlocked?
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah that's my presentation. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Woah. I uh kind of opened it {gap}.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Huh?
Marketing: Mm?
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: What the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh right.
User Interface: I think you have to uh change your desktop uh
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: size.
Marketing: Ooh. {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay. Everybody ready?
Industrial Designer: Not really.
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Sorry.
Project Manager: No no no. Yes yes yes.
User Interface: {gap} computer is uh not functioning?
Marketing: Alright.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Where do I find this? I'm not so g display huh?
User Interface: Uh display.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then uh settings?
Industrial Designer: Appearance?
Marketing: Huh.
User Interface: Mm I'm not sure I {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} You read the newsflash? {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay. Can we get started
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No what was it about?
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: or is there some pressing issue?
Industrial Designer: Yeah my computer is not functioning properly.
Project Manager: Oh no pressing.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Did you plug in the power cable when you come back?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah. No but my screen is reduced in size. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. That's difficult. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Feedback.
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {gap} alt delete. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Format. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Format save.
Marketing: {gap}. So it doesn't draw the attention away.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: This is dreadful.
User Interface: I made uh uh my own map.
Project Manager: Oh yeah sure.
Industrial Designer: No not this, but the task.
User Interface: It's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You have Playstation also?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} No that's okay. No I just flapped it, closed it, took it here and then this happened. Ah. Uh {disfmarker} where was it? In settings? Okay. Alright. Thank you.
Project Manager: Huh.
Industrial Designer: Do you guys like your tasks?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was gonna do and then a couple of minutes before this I get my function you know the information that I need.
User Interface: Yeah wa wa you actually {disfmarker} Yeah. But it it's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation.
Industrial Designer: So frustrating.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. I I had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh. I have to do that so switch.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {disfmarker} Yeah exactly. This presentation is mainly based on my own ideas'cause I hadn't time to intergrate tha the information yet so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Really annoying.
Project Manager: Okay. So there we are again.
Marketing: By your humble P_M_.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay this is the agenda. Um we have three presentations, I heard.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Really. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah really. {vocalsound} So who wants to start?
Marketing: Yeah that's fine {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: We have to start it right away? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh this is you?
Marketing: Functional? Yeah functional requirements.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Marketing: Alright. I'm gonna talk about functional requirements. Um {disfmarker} Well uh some research has be done uh has been done. Uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control. Uh and they also filled in a questionnaire. The findings were um, well you can see them for yourself. They disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls. {vocalsound} Users think they're ugly. Um {vocalsound} they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users. So they they d they don't match what they want to have on it. Um {vocalsound} they are often lost somewhere in the room. Um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control. And they're bad for R_S_I_. {vocalsound} I don't know uh how a user can reach that but okay. Um {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ts
Marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions. Uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings, mono, stereo, uh pitch, bass. Um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that. Um but they are used. I mean the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So they do need to be in the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Marketing: I mean if you can't control the the sound settings {disfmarker} I mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something, you you need to change that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} often.
Marketing: So um yeah we have to.
Industrial Designer: By the way my T_V_ doesn't have an equ equaliser but
Marketing: We c we c Yeah I mean w we can't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Next generation does. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} okay.
Marketing: my my T_V_ has,
Industrial Designer: No. {vocalsound} Alright.
Marketing: but we we can leave them uh away. Uh most relevant, uh most used functions, uh they speak for themselves I guess. Uh power button, uh channel, volume selection. Uh teletext but we can skip that because I saw the newsflash, and teletext is so outdated that it it's i should not be used uh any more in the future.
Project Manager: N not used anymore.
Marketing: So forget this one.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Uh channel settings, so for programming uh your channels in in the right order.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: By the way where did you guys get that newsflash from?
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} I was wondering uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I didn't get anything.
Marketing: Yeah, {vocalsound} on on the project uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Not by mail. I receiv the mail but you don't. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: But you you've got more information than {disfmarker} uh.
Marketing: No so it's a text file n in the project folder. So teletext can be skipped.
Project Manager: That's in the presentation, so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Marketing: Um there was some research on new features in a remote control. Uh about an L_C_D_ screen uh and speech recognition. Well we got an update for the for the audience. Or the the the targeted group. So it's above forty I guess.
Project Manager: Uh below I believe.
Marketing: The new product? Or below {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah below forty.
Marketing: because that's pretty relevant.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: I thought I read a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Our current customers are in the age group forty plus.
Marketing: Yeah?
Project Manager: And the new product should reach new markets, which is the customers below forty.
Marketing: Below? Okay well {vocalsound}
User Interface: But where did you get uh that information?
Project Manager: That's in a newsflash.
Marketing: that's that's in the newsfla
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: okay that's a good to know. Um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups, concerning the features.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition. Uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are. So I think we can build that in. Um {disfmarker} Yeah well we can skip this part as well, because I thought I read above forty so we could skip the features, but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting. Um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible. Um and and also there's {disfmarker} so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them, and stuff like that. So the physical uh aspect of it. Um {disfmarker} And I think {disfmarker} and certainly for for the for the lower age groups, uh nice design, which uh does not make the remote control {gap} in your room.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: It's it's actually a part of your interior, of of your design in your room. So it's {vocalsound} the people can say, well what's that, well that's my remote control, so it's d it has to look nice and feel nice, and and have all the functions that uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. But it also needs to have corporate identity.
Marketing: Yeah so the the logo has to be
Project Manager: Present and the colours.
Marketing: uh present yeah, and the colours as well.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So we can't change much of that.
Industrial Designer: Do we have {disfmarker} uh yeah {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah so but I I don't think that's that's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway, and most of the times there is a brand present on it.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: So I think that's not gonna gonna affect it very uh very much.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Marketing: Yes.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: It's open already so you can use {gap} to
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: find yours.
User Interface: Mm. It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: F_ five.
User Interface: F_ five. Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Go Jurgen.
User Interface: Oh. What is this?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How do I uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You pressed alt F_ four? {vocalsound}
User Interface: No no no. I pressed the mouse button.
Project Manager: Oh great. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker} th that's the self-destruct button.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: Uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it.
User Interface: Okay. Um if you all go stand around uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Just {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Computer {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Marketing: Sure.
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's nice. {vocalsound}
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: F_ five. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Alright.
User Interface: I uh had uh two examples.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: This the easy one
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: I think we have to to combine them. And uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Um but yeah the the age is uh under forty?
Project Manager: The mm yeah.
Marketing: Yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions.
User Interface: So we {disfmarker} Okay so so we have the option for more functions.
Marketing: So not not too much but {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: And we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the speech recognition yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: alright.
User Interface: Uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids. It's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options. But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah from age of sixteen so yeah.
User Interface: Yeah but I prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah. We have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: But if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else, you should use use an uh an advanced option.
Marketing: Yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device, only your television.
User Interface: Okay one device.
Project Manager: Yeah. So n it's very easy.
User Interface: Okay. I didn't see {gap}.
Marketing: So w
Project Manager: Now yeah it's okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay and I also uh yeah. W yeah.
Marketing: So there are not extra options in this case, but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: We have to make it fashionable. Like you uh said uh before.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh yeah the basic functions. Um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed.
Project Manager: Yeah so maybe you can hide them or something.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options, you can put that in the screen.
Project Manager: Yeah you make a screen menu or something.
Marketing: And the and the {disfmarker} yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen, uh with a clear menu.
Project Manager: Yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: What does the screen do?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Did I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} What are {disfmarker} wh
Project Manager: Yeah. It's low power.
User Interface: did I break it? {vocalsound}
Marketing: What {gap}.
Project Manager: So what does the screen do? They said they needed it but what does it do? What do they want with the screen?
User Interface: For for the advanced functions I think.
Project Manager: Yeah that's what we make it up.
Marketing: Yeah well it {gap} yeah it didn't
Project Manager: So but what did the marketing {disfmarker}
Marketing: it didn't say what they want to do with the screen.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Well I, my guess is it's it's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions.
Project Manager: Yeah okay it's handy. With no predefined uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like searching for channels and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah look.
Marketing: Yeah searching for channels, programming them.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: We have your uh {disfmarker} oh never mind. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We're back online. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. That's uh {disfmarker} I'm al I'm almost finished so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} we have to to to watch out for the {disfmarker} i if we make it f very fashionable, it it the functional functionality will go down. So we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Content and form.
User Interface: yeah content and form.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Now that that was uh was the end.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That was the end. Okay.
User Interface: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well my presentation is a bit uh sucky. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well you can improvise right?
Project Manager: Uh which one is it? Technical functions?
Industrial Designer: Yeah a little bit.
Project Manager: This one?
Industrial Designer: Uh no. No no. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Functional requirements?
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think that would be it then. {gap}
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You didn't put it in? Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I have no idea.
Marketing: So we we can go for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That w {gap}.
Project Manager: {gap} it's not really English. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Let me check. I know.
Project Manager: Uh kick off. Oh working design I got it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example, and then a screen on top of it.
Project Manager: Here you go.
Industrial Designer: Alright how do I uh skip pages?
Project Manager: Just uh press uh {disfmarker} yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The keys yeah?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Alright. Um yeah well I was working on this before I got my information. So I was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And well the info on the website which came too late.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Um so I didn't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting. Those were my uh starting points.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Uh I was working on a s yeah on a schedule, and I was supposed to do it like this. But um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that I had to follow, so I was trying to organise them for myself.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: And then make the
Project Manager: Design yeah.
Industrial Designer: the design, a the actual design,
Marketing: Design? Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but I never came around to do that. So I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to say about it.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I mean everything speaks for itself I guess. Mean you press a button um {vocalsound} the it tru goes, it sends a signal to a chip,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah frequency. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And uh or temporal fr frequencies actually. And then uh through a uh transformer, it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the T_V_
Project Manager: Yeah decoder.
Industrial Designer: and the T_V_ will translate it into a function. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah well this was actually {vocalsound} all I got around to do.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Blank. Yeah okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I mean I dunno if I'm too slow for this stuff, but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Work harder.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Whatever.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay. Um for those that didn't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext, only for T_V_. Uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty, but I don't think it's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: And uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control. And we have to decide on the functions, and on the, let's see what was it, uh the target group. We have to make be clear what that is.
Marketing: {gap} group of users, or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah users.
Marketing: because it says below forty I mean. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah so I think it's easy but {disfmarker}
Marketing: I guess that's that's the tar yeah uh or male and female {disfmarker}
User Interface: But uh it's it's also for children or just uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah it's below forty so we can decide where to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh six {disfmarker} the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen.
User Interface: Okay. Okay.
Marketing: Sixteen to twenty five, twenty five to thirty five, thirty five to forty five, something like that.
Project Manager: Okay. So below forty is okay.
Marketing: So um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But we need an {disfmarker} lower level which to s uh focus.
Marketing: How do you mean?
Project Manager: So is it from sixteen to forty? Is it from twenty to forty? Is it from thirty?
Marketing: Uh sixteen to forty.
Project Manager: Yeah?'Kay.
User Interface: Yeah. We we have to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well I I guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So they they adapt to it pretty soon I guess.
User Interface: And if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah so what we might wanna do is uh yeah cust I have customised the screen functions, if you know what I mean.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: The uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions. But maybe elderly people don't understand it so well, so they need a simpler remote.
Project Manager: Design. Mm.
Industrial Designer: And yeah that you can choose what the design displays, or wha whatever.
User Interface: Yeah that's that's why uh I wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions. The the simple functions for for the the whole public, and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} And maybe y
Industrial Designer: Experienced yeah.
Marketing: But uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself?
User Interface: Na I w I should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display.
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. So is {disfmarker} you should have a menu for all the the functions you don't use regular and which are {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh you can make a {disfmarker} if you make a drawing.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Aye yeah.
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Uh {gap}.
Project Manager: Shall I uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh black's okay. {vocalsound} And draw it very big.
Project Manager: Yeah. It's okay.
Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: {gap} no, it doesn't have line control, so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah we get the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah well, this is basically uh it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The remote?
Project Manager: The remote, yeah?
Marketing: alright the remote? Um well usually the power button is on top I guess.
Project Manager: Basic. Is on top. Which should be easy, easily reached with the thumb.
Marketing: Yeah so it should fit right in into your hand.
User Interface: Yeah. L left top or right uh top?
Project Manager: T I s should said right.
Marketing: Right. Right.
User Interface: Yeah, right.
Industrial Designer: Right top.
Marketing: I most people are right-handed so {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah definitely.
Marketing: maybe left-handed special addition, but okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: If you put it like like here. Or something. I dunno. Um then you could put a screen, like on a mobile phone, also on top I guess.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah but if you are using the the normal functions, the the basic functions, you normally press them on the u yeah.
Project Manager: Do the also with the thumb. So it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb, also reach the middle. Or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly.
Marketing: Okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand, and the screen is below, and the buttons are in the middle.
Project Manager: You you need to be able to hold it so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay for example {vocalsound} if you put the screen here, it's more about the functions now than the than the layout.
Project Manager: Yeah okay that's true. Layout. That's for the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Doesn't work too well. It's uh it's bent.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I can't help it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}.
User Interface: You broke it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Man. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right.
Project Manager: Yeah okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay you get it. Uh for example if y if you put all the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You want the normal piece of paper? And you have a pen?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And might be easier huh?
Marketing: Maybe this. {gap} kind of works.
Project Manager: Yeah?
Marketing: Like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Uh.
Marketing: um and here one for for
Project Manager: And the for flipping up and down.
User Interface: Yeah yeah. And volume control.
Marketing: Yeah that that usually uh {disfmarker} like here, here, here, here.
Industrial Designer: Yeah I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So you have up and down for the for the channels, and left and right for the volume uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And left to right. And those can also be used for the menu.
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly. I thought {disfmarker} but this is really your department, that we need just the functional display and four cursors.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things {disfmarker}
Marketing: And you you have {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle. It says menu,
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay.
Project Manager: For the menu. Yeah.
Marketing: and then if you press it you {disfmarker} the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: and then just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay, to to confirm a a kind of action.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So you scroll into it, okay. You select a function like v like uh bass. You just adjust it with these two buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Then okay to confirm, and then uh on on each on each screen there's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: And then finally say okay, exit. Or or one button to exit it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Uh in one time I dunno, that's not really my department.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And do we need a a logo on our uh remote control, or {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's more your uh your department to to uh to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. But it should be {disfmarker} if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top,
User Interface: On the left uh top yeah.
Marketing: yeah. I mean it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but that depends on where you put the screen.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: But it's essential that there is a screen.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah I mean the position of the screen is also more essential than {disfmarker} I mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there.
Project Manager: Yeah. And for the speech uh recognition part, if we want to incorporate that, we need a microphone.
Marketing: But um {disfmarker} Yeah so it should be {disfmarker} I mean if you have it in your hand here, should be on top somewhere, maybe.
Project Manager: Yeah. This would be uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why did we wanna put the display in the bottom?
Marketing: I mean i
Project Manager: No that's not s sure so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: That's not sure
Project Manager: uh we need a display.
Marketing: but it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah may maybe because you're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display.
User Interface: Yeah okay but {gap} only for the basic functi if you're going to use the advanced option, you're going to press the the menu button and then {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: Yeah I mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me.
Industrial Designer: Normal for logical t
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top.
Project Manager: Yeah they're used to it.
User Interface: Okay the {disfmarker} yeah. That's possible.
Marketing: So you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: I mean if you grab it.
Industrial Designer: On once it's on it's on. You don't need the power button.
Marketing: But most most of the times if a if if a T_V_'s on standby people just press a channel to put it on.
User Interface: Yeah, okay. Okay we put it on top.
Marketing: So we put this on top, and then make the corporate logo
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: like over here. R_R_. And j and the microphone, I mean it can be very small. If you look at your mobile phones {gap} are some stripes, {vocalsound} little little holes.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Maybe on the top or even on the side.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah maybe on the side. I mean if the if the microphone is good.
Project Manager: Yeah but then it's possible that you cover it with your hand so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: True.
Marketing: Yeah okay. So on the on the top is better.
Project Manager: I think that top is the best option.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this, if you put it on the top on the side {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay.
Industrial Designer: I dunno. Should be able to work.
Marketing: Yeah. {gap}.
Project Manager: Depends on the sensitivity of the microphone, but I think that's okay.
Industrial Designer: Never mind. Can we leave this up to you? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it doesn't matter that much. So {disfmarker} but um the screen is on top? Which functions did we have left? I mean this is basically numbers, volume, uh channel up and down.
Project Manager: Volume. Up. Channel up and down, and the control of the advanced options.
Marketing: Screen is over there.
Project Manager: So maybe it, we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the L_C_D_ screen.
User Interface: Yeah. If we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. That's uh that's a good one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right?
Project Manager: Yeah so sounds?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like uh bass uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Sound?
Industrial Designer: so we need kind of an equaliser. If you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Equaliser. So if you have sound {disfmarker} But not too advanced. I mean most T_V_s use only treble and bass.
Project Manager: Yeah
User Interface: Yeah it it's just a remote control so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and they're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah treble, middl middle, bass or something.
Project Manager: They're not used often so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. It's uh pretty hard to write.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah as {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm. Okay but you have sound?
Project Manager: Yeah sounds.
Marketing: Yeah just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: oh y you have digital uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: better write it down over there yeah.
Project Manager: Of course. I'm just a {vocalsound} secretary.
Marketing: So you have sound.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Coffee?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah sound and then within sound I guess treble and bass?
Industrial Designer: Yes please.
Project Manager: Treble bass.
Industrial Designer: {gap} the mono stereo option?
Marketing: Yeah. Also.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And there there was something else also.
Project Manager: Pitch I believe, yeah.
Industrial Designer: And then pitch.
Marketing: Pitch. Yeah. But pitch, isn't that {disfmarker} yeah that's the the height of the tone.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The fr yeah the frequency of the tones, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah okay,
Project Manager: Yeah and mono stereo.
Marketing: wh why would you use that?
Industrial Designer: Yeah isn't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you're watching.
Marketing: If people like talk like uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And also the tuning part?
Marketing: Programming part.
Project Manager: Yeah programming. So channel programming?
Marketing: Uh so we have sound, yeah? Channel programming.
Industrial Designer: And yeah in the functionality of the
User Interface: Television uh itself uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them? As a confirmation or whatever you know?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: I dunno.
Marketing: I think it g it gets annoying.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: I mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but {disfmarker}
User Interface: We we could make an option for it, but uh you can disable s
Industrial Designer: Under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things.
User Interface: Yeah. But uh the the television itself has also the the options {gap} brightness and uh screen colour etcetera. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Contrast yeah.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: Yeah but people don't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with {gap} only three buttons then it's very hard to
Project Manager: Mm. No. Uh, so contrast,
Marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: bright,
Marketing: Yeah those are the most used I guess. If you look at your monitor.
Project Manager: uh {disfmarker} And the others were in your presentation right? So I can just copy those?
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} yeah well I guess that these were the only ones, I guess.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} It's easy. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But so we have we have T_V_ options, which is all this.
Marketing: Yeah. I will look it up.
Project Manager: Yeah the button options and the L_C_D_ options.
Industrial Designer: The sound, sound and image. And you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options.
Project Manager: Indeed.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So we need two menus kind of thing.
Project Manager: Yeah you have basically a button menu, which you can use directly, uh according to the old principle.
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: And the L_C_D_ options are activated by some some software options, thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah.
Marketing: Yeah with the chip and then {gap} I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So you {disfmarker} You have an additional processor and and software part.
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} yeah. Well {disfmarker} yeah we have power button, whether that's present.
Project Manager: Compared to o
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Channel volume selection present. Uh numbers present. Yeah a audio settings, mono, stereo, pitch, bass, treble. Screen settings, brightness and colour.
Project Manager: L_ s Yeah. Colour. Yeah I I call it contrast.
Marketing: Yeah con contrast is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I make it c colour.
Marketing: Yeah okay, colour and brightness.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Um and what you say, channel settings or channel programming? So you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies, and when it encounters one, well it shows on your T_V_. And then you can um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah and automatically um {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it.
Project Manager: Yeah so I've g channel program is autoseek?
Marketing: Yeah, autoseek.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh name a channel, or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well most T_V_s automatically display the name, which they get through the cable.
Project Manager: Oh they get automatic names, okay.
Marketing: Yeah. So you only have to choose the position on your
Project Manager: {gap}.
Marketing: It only has to match the the channel frequency on your T_V_, with with the with the position on your T_V_ and and so your remote.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah but can you also say I want f uh Veronica on the channel number uh five or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Help.
Marketing: If you already programmed it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: If you want to move it. Yeah that should be possible too.
Project Manager: Yeah. How do you call that? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah how do you call that? Mm? Wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something, which w displays all the all the values, all the channels which are possible.
Project Manager: Channels? Yeah.
Marketing: I mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever.
Project Manager: Ninety nine or something. Yeah.
Marketing: Just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed.
Project Manager: S swap channels? Can I call it that?
Marketing: Yeah. Swap channels.
Project Manager: Swap's good option. Okay. Uh other functions?
Marketing: So you {disfmarker} most of the time if you if you swap it {disfmarker} S uh let's say for example you have uh R_T_L_ five on on channel five. And Veronica on channel eight and you want to move Veronica to channel five, most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Okay. Well that's's up to uh Mister User Interface Designer.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. It's it's pretty uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: yeah I mean you have to look on on the menu
Industrial Designer: {gap} working design. Doch.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Also.
Marketing: on the T_V_.
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} He only has to figure out how it has to look.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah but also, which buttons you have to press to get a certain result?
Industrial Designer: And how
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: to use {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was, as I believe.
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay. But {disfmarker} You did your homework. But um {disfmarker} yeah. Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote? To programme the channels?
Project Manager: No I don't think so.
Industrial Designer: No no. It should be able to do any remote.
User Interface: No that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh.
Project Manager: But I think the communication with the television is difficult. But that's not our part.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We don't have to design a protocol so {disfmarker}
Marketing: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's true. That's true.
Industrial Designer: Thank god.
User Interface: Okay {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. So we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily. I mean th the autoseek is is not a problem.
Project Manager: No that's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says, uh on which number do you want to save this, and you just press a number on your remote, and then say confirm, okay, and then it's it's saved. It's easier, {gap} it's it's it's harder to, if you have already programmed it, to to swap.
Project Manager: Yeah. So but {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we have to think of something for that.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} The User Interface Designer can design a menu for all these function I put them on the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah k kind of structure into layers.
User Interface: On the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the {disfmarker} yeah'cause it's now {disfmarker} there are lots and lots of documents
Project Manager: {gap}. Yeah. Yeah I can.
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'll just try to reorganise uh things. Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So you design the basic function menu for the L_C_D_ screen? Uh um {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound}
Marketing: And and the layout of of the thing itself.
Project Manager: th I think the yeah the layout of the screen
User Interface: The the layout of the remote control?
Project Manager: and I think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}.
User Interface: Isn't that more the the u uh the user interface part?
Project Manager: {gap}. No I d I think that's more in {disfmarker} {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote I think are in my department.
Marketing: Maybe more on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I have to know what it has to do, so if you wanna you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is, I have to integrate that in the design.
Project Manager: Okay. So he's layout and you're function.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Form function okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think that's a that's a good separation.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: But do I have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Are you going to do that?
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah I guess so.
User Interface: Yeah? I I'm going to make {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think i that's your department yes,
User Interface: yeah o okay.
Project Manager: because w he already knows what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah we have to kind of work together.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: If if I make the the the yeah the menu like, I have to state which function has to be in the menu,
Project Manager: But we're not allowed. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then you have to decide, it's, in a in a way that b is user-friendly.
User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen, the menu screen.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: And I'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with {gap} pages and yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: With with some l with some layers in it.
Project Manager: Yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result,
Marketing: So some menus.
Project Manager: because that's always the difficulty.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Every device has its own {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Well I guess this this button, the the the okay,
Project Manager: Menu okay.
Marketing: menu okay. Or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons. Uh like uh for your mobile phone. Um so this is only for to get in the menu, or to exit it.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: And then one to confirm, and one to go one step back.
Project Manager: Back. Yeah.
Marketing: So it's like the the save button on your your mobile phone, if you have a Nokia or like that. Or the or the no button.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: To go one step back you {gap} it's only two extra buttons,
User Interface: Yeah. W we {disfmarker}
Marketing: but if it if it's very clear that they are for the screen {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I think we have to to group, to make two groups. Um the {disfmarker} one group for the for the display, and one group for the basic functions, and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah but they're incorporated {gap}? Up and down is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah okay but we we have a m
Marketing: Yeah because this this is used for both.
User Interface: yeah but maybe that's that's not uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Smart?
User Interface: yeah if you're if you're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control, you can press the the menu button, and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display.
Marketing: Into your screen. Okay. So you
Industrial Designer: You wanna separate uh {vocalsound}
Marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And {gap} and just put it under the screen, the screen {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Put it on top.
User Interface: Yeah j just just group group the {disfmarker} yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So we make a yeah a line between them.
Marketing: Yeah. But we should place the screen on top, right?
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: F oh yeah. Okay yeah we swap uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: But that's uh J Jurgen's department.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. So we make it a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. You just you just find out and {gap}.
Project Manager: You just make the layout. You {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think you should.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's easier. If you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing.
Project Manager: Yeah okay. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. So we have a a menu button and a s
Project Manager: And to, okay and back, also.
User Interface: Okay. Okay and back button.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, or confirm and back. Whatever.
Project Manager: And of course the four arrows.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No.
Project Manager: But those are still y doubly used. Both the L_C_D_ {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should we save this picture, or or you know what it looks like?
User Interface: Yeah I'm I'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons. We have a menu button and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. That that just to to activate the screen. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's the the one with the {disfmarker} yeah okay.
Project Manager: Menu button access the menu in the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: And then with these buttons, woa, y you navigate.
Project Manager: You can navigate.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: But you can also navigate the channels. And the volume.
User Interface: Okay so that that's not uh {disfmarker} Yeah that {disfmarker} Those are
Project Manager: Those are both both {disfmarker}
User Interface: multifunctional.
Project Manager: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Hey is it interesting for users if we put LED lights under the buttons? So that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up.
Marketing: Yeah. L l litten up yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Oh five minutes.
Marketing: That's very good idea.
Industrial Designer: N
Marketing: Alright.
Project Manager: Light uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah that's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now, which you can use.
Industrial Designer: Yeah and then it's also easier to integrate several functions in one button.
Project Manager: Yeah sure.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Anything else?
Marketing: Those buttons are are lit up.
Industrial Designer: I think not.
Marketing: But just one thing. Should we use those two? Them? Or only this to to scroll?
Project Manager: I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then use the two functional buttons to confirm, to go into something? Oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars?
Project Manager: Volume.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah keep it optional'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu.
Marketing: Yeah. And maybe we should use this also as an okay button, still. And then just only a back button.
Project Manager: Well we have those buttons. We use all four.
User Interface: No {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is, sorry
Project Manager: Yeah okay go ahead.
Marketing: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: sorry, uh is uh if you're pressing up and down, you can easily press the okay once you, when you're not already at your choice.
User Interface: Yeah. So maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah that was already decided.
Marketing: And one back.
User Interface: Yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh {disfmarker} yeah m a multifunctional navigation button.
Project Manager: Okay that's what we decided earlier on.
User Interface: Yeah okay. Yeah.
Project Manager: Right okay. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You wanna close down huh? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah I wanna close down.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I have to, sorry.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: it's not because I don't like you but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's okay.
Project Manager: yh we have lunch break,
Industrial Designer: Already.
Project Manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes, and I have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes. And then uh we'll see {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Alright. How m how long is the lunchbreak?
Project Manager: I don't know. Nobody told me. {vocalsound}
Marketing: We have to ask. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now? Or first lunchbreak?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: No I th believe there's first lunch break.
User Interface: Because I {disfmarker} I've everything in my head now {vocalsound} so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Or you can just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and {disfmarker}
User Interface:'Kay.
Industrial Designer: This is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yes sir. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Time pressure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Yeah it's a lot of pressure.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh.
Project Manager: That's okay. Oh yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no no. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah we'll kick your ass later. No. {vocalsound} Uh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Bring it on.
Project Manager: I don't know if it works but it should be saved.
Marketing: Aye {disfmarker} Y you saved it? Does it save automatically in the project folder? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. We'll see.
Project Manager: Should be here. Smart board.
Marketing: Just put back my laptop.
Project Manager: Don't know if you can use it but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that.
User Interface: And uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered.
Project Manager: Yeah. I try to organise it by these three.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}. It's it's just my own map so I put everything into the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {gap} yeah yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't really mind. I just put the minutes here and we'll see.
User Interface: But you got some extra information uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah that's in the functional design uh folder.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah that's just basically what I just showed.
User Interface: But where do you did you get the newsflash?
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah I got it by {disfmarker}
User Interface: You're the only one uh {disfmarker} okay.
Project Manager: yeah. I'm gonna get kicked if I don't do it so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} internet.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Marketing: Alright.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Make me proud.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'll try to.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So first we have a lunchbreak now?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: I believe so. {gap} just ask. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. I dunno where she {gap}. | The whole meeting was about what the group should do for the remote control, from a good-looking appearance to a joyful user experience. At the beginning, the group had individual presentations about their previous research findings. Through those presentations, all of the four got a general idea about the target market, the functions and the layout. They talked about the functions carefully as well as the interface design of the remote control later on. Finally, under the leadership of the Project Manager, all the members got some assignments for their next detailed design. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Okay. Right. Conceptual design meeting. Right. Okay, so {disfmarker} Right well um from the last meeting {vocalsound} I was trying to send you the minutes, but uh it didn't work out too well, so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting, I can quickly give you what we what we had.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh right, so {disfmarker} Wishing I hadn't closed the damn {disfmarker} Right so we had the fact that we're gonna have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device. We had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself, that it was gonna be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time. We're gonna have uh effectively two pages, a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted, and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements. And the customers wouldn't have to look at them too often, only as and when required. So. So basically what decisions uh have we uh made? Uh have there been any uh changes?
Industrial Designer: I think we all have a presentation again,
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: so if we go through those and then um
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Three presentation, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap}. Shall I go first again? {gap}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Yeah, fine.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I see {gap} this a little more smoothly than the last one. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay right, let's get started. Um basically the uh for the {disfmarker} Um I'll {gap} back actually. For the components design, um next step is basically the the way the remote's gonna work is still the same idea as before. We still have the user interface which is all the buttons we're gonna incorporate. Then there is a chip and still the sender. So um yes {gap} including the power s supply as well. Um I'll go on to my findings in each of these areas. Uh first in the power supply, we have the option of just the standard battery, um. {vocalsound} There's a dynamo. Any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up {gap} um. There's a kinetic option, which if any of you've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around, um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries wouldn't have to be replaced. Um that's one option,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but I think that was gonna cost a little more. And then there's solar cells. Um as a final option. For the buttons, we have um an integrated push button, which is {disfmarker} Oh just to say all all these are um supplied by Real Reaction. So I guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Um so for the buttons there's an integrated push button, which I guess is just the same as the standard ones. This says it's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal {disfmarker} for like uh like modern computer. Um there's a scroll wheel which is {disfmarker} you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down, which may be for the volume.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: You could do do that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Um one issue for the buttons is, depending on which material we use, if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case, so we have to take that into consideration. Um moving on to the printed s
Project Manager: What would be the cost do do we know?
Industrial Designer: Um that's on the next {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: I th I think the there wasn't too much difference in the cost, that that related to the actual buttons, but it does affect the printed circuit board. Um which is the next section. Basically for the circuit board which is the middle, it's just {disfmarker} see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: The firm supplies a simple, a regular and an advanced um circuit board. And there's different prices according to each. So if we've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons, that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition. There's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost, but it wouldn't affect the size of the remote too much. Um and I guess that would require a more advanced circuit board, so there is an extra price in that sense. There is th sorry an extra cost in that sense. Um going to my personal preferences, um I thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up. And this would avoid batteries running out, having to replace batteries and such like. Um for the buttons, I thought we'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel. Um and for the circuit board, again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote. So if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition, um then we'd have to get a a more costly circuit board. And that's it.
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: {gap} with the printed circuit boards you were going for the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Thanks. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um i it kind of depends um if we're gonna have the speech recognition, we'd have to probably get an advanced one. I'm guessing.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Uh but I don't know, so that is something I'll have to look into.
Project Manager: But are we going f R right.
Industrial Designer: Um that's a that's a decision for all of us. Um.
Project Manager: So are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we're discussing that issue,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah. We decide. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so would it not be best to {disfmarker} rather than {disfmarker} I mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were. The other way would be to do the presentation
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and then make the decision at that point in time.
Industrial Designer: Um. Maybe w
User Interface: Yeah, that's probably a better one, to discuss it straight away.
Project Manager:'Cause at that point then you've got the details up there, so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular {gap} and what required advance. Then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: and then that would be the end of that issue. Does that make sense?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I have a lot of the information there.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: It might not be very clear.
Industrial Designer: Is there {disfmarker}
User Interface: Unless you want to plug it back in to yours.
Industrial Designer: Um. We could do, yeah. Um yeah we should {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: As I say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: it didn't {disfmarker} The voice recognition came as a separate piece of information. Um.
Project Manager: No the scroll wheel required the regular, so the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah if if you {gap} down um. It's just this bit at the bottom which I've highlighted,
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which is in the higher price range.
Project Manager: Okay. The display requires an advanced chip
User Interface: I think the scroll wheel um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense.
Industrial Designer: Also the display's for something else which we decided against. Um but that bit {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And note that the push button just requires a simple chip, so that would keep the price down.
Project Manager: Down.
User Interface: Yeah, and if we're going for sleek and sexy, I think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I I've got um pictures well I've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it,
Project Manager: Right. Okay.
User Interface: and they don't really look great.
Industrial Designer:'Kay. So maybe just a simple push button, and that would cut costs on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So. So we're going for p Okay. So {gap} is um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So are we going for the w are we going for the simple one, are we?
User Interface: Yeah, a simple pushbuttons.
Project Manager: Simple push button. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Did everyone get this on the speech recognition? The um it was basically what we said before, the idea that you record in a set message, and then it picks up that message um and replies to you.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So it is basically the concept we discussed before. Um but then we don't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board.
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: I'm guessing it would, but {gap} got like the definite information. Maybe we should go on what we're certain of rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So if we go for the simple push button, so effectively we're going for the simple printed circuit board are we? Or are we going for the regular?
Industrial Designer: Um if it's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board.
Project Manager: Mm-mm. But is there any other {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean okay, that's true for the {disfmarker} for for that element, but we have to take all {gap} el elements into consideration. And so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one, or say the regular one, or the more advanced, then that would have to be the same for all of them. S
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Hmm. But {disfmarker}
Marketing: I suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires, maybe before we {gap} m make a decision.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: But the way that I interpret that um it doesn't seem to send out a signal to the telly, it just {disfmarker} it's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Oh yeah, I suppose so, yeah.
Industrial Designer: So maybe that would be something separate, yeah.
User Interface: So I don't think it would effect our circuit board.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay, so we'd have a simple circuit board
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oh that makes sense.
User Interface: And I don't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface:'Cause the example that they've given there is good morning coffee machine, good morning Jo.
Project Manager: Mm-mm.
User Interface: It might be useful to say like where are you remote. Here I am, Jo.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But I think that's maybe as far as that one could go?
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah that makes sense, so we'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility.
User Interface: Yeah, just as a fun way to find it.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Um.
Project Manager: Simple circuit board. Simple push button. Okay. W w kinetic.
User Interface: And it says that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply.
User Interface: I think it said the cost of that isn't too much.
Industrial Designer: Um yeah I I thought so just for {disfmarker} just for ease of not having to replace the batteries.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: And how does it get uh charged up?
Industrial Designer: It's um I think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside. It's um it's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up. Somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So you'd you'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So the speech recognition was {disfmarker} Are we going for speech recognition? No?'Cause that required the advanced {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um I think it would be helpful to find it, but I don't think it'd um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah I think {disfmarker} did we decide it didn't affect the circuit board, it just affected {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, I think so.
Marketing: Just just for the call and find thing.
Industrial Designer: It was just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I had speech recognition requires advanced req require
Industrial Designer: Oh no th that's what that's what I thought, but maybe maybe it doesn't {gap}.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Um I think I might have got that wrong.
Project Manager: So okay.
Marketing:'Cause it's s it's separate isn't it,
Project Manager: Speech recognition you reckon then is s simple.
Marketing: it's not part of the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's it's just an addition thing it's um yeah.
Project Manager: And so we would want it in as an extra because it doesn't appear to cost too much. Would that be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer:'Kay shall I pass on to you now?
User Interface: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: In fact, it wouldn't really cost anymore, would it?
User Interface: I'll just just check what it said. Actually I don't think it really says anything about the cost, but it says that it's already in the coffee machines, so like it's already kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I assume it would cost extra, but {disfmarker} Maybe we maybe we'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then have to change all {vocalsound} change {gap} everything at the last minute.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. S
User Interface: Um. {vocalsound} Oh, that was quick. Um okay, so very brief presentation, um. From looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute, none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy. Um I haven't actually got the examples of the scroll button there, um but there's some curved cases that you can see, uh a range of sizes uh. All of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons. Does that move it?
Project Manager: Sorry?
User Interface: It just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah, I've found that {gap} try and get it back.
Industrial Designer: If you right click and then go onto a previous slide.
User Interface: Ah it's alright.
Industrial Designer: Okay, right.
User Interface: Um. There wasn't much more to say about that, just rambling. {vocalsound} Um some of the uh remotes that I looked at, one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions. And uh it was quite uh a swish model, where it can control uh four devices, T_V_, cable, satellite, video, D_V_D_, audio. Um so that's a bit of competition there. So I mean maybe it's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
User Interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions. Um the scroll buttons, as you've already mentioned, um there's examples of those, but they don't look as sleek as other models. And there's no real advantage and {disfmarker} because it impacts on other {disfmarker} on the materials and the price it's not great.
Industrial Designer: On the price, yeah.
Project Manager: So you were saying the scroll buttons {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Yeah. Th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about, um. There was children's remote, where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
User Interface: Um but I don't know if that's really in our field?
Industrial Designer: I guess I guess we're going for the biggest market, {gap} maybe not,
User Interface: But that's something that's out there.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Was it was it specified that we went for the biggest?
Project Manager: Well we're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that wouldn't necessarily preclude {disfmarker}
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: The one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications. So you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever, and then you could have additional features in you know like a {disfmarker} You'd have model one, model two and model three, and therefore you can sub-divide your market up. But that's really where your field is.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So maybe the children's remote should be like a a next step, but maybe I dunno for ours, maybe we should {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Anyway you could add on for an extra package, but on this basic one I'm reckoning that we're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments.
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Is that
User Interface: Right well that's something that we can be aware of.
Project Manager: So so what are we deciding to do here?
User Interface: Um. I think because there's already um very good voice recognition technology out there, and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do, it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function.
Project Manager: Right. Mm-hmm. Uh the fi Yeah, the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition. S s so um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah. Different languages might not be compatible.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. It w it would make it quite complicated,
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah,'cause I think you program um this one yourself, like to say like whatever you want to your question.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah and ours is quite a cheap device, so I don't know how much we'll be able to put into it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So you'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And you were talking
User Interface: Maybe unless something else comes up.
Project Manager: Mm. And you were talking about scroll buttons?
User Interface: Um yeah I think um I think we've decided that it's gonna increase the cost
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit
Project Manager: {gap} b
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: and it's gonna decrease from the sleekness of it.
Project Manager: Alright, so we're just gonna have the the rubber buttons, was that right?
Industrial Designer: Yes yes.
User Interface: Hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably don't want to focus on those like such as the children's remote.
Project Manager: Okay. So not to be focused on.
User Interface: Yeah. Um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design. Um just to avoid ambiguity. So it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down, they might both have a V_ on for volume, {disfmarker} Um let's think how they did this.
Project Manager: Good in in {disfmarker} Flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down.
User Interface: I'm just gonna check so I do this right.
Project Manager: An upside-down V_. So that would show that volume was going up, whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down.
User Interface: Um. What did they say? Um I think the thing was that if you decide to do this, to have triangular buttons, um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up, and that's the first thing that they see {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: Actually that can't be right, can it? Oh well, no, they might see yeah, they might see this pointing down and think right that's gonna turn the volume down,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: whereas the actual button's pointing up, so the function is to turn the button up.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So, be careful what you put on the buttons
Industrial Designer: So maybe we could have like {disfmarker}
User Interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah I I know what you mean. So maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: You could have volume up and volume {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Possible.
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Volume up, down and {disfmarker} Like that.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: And'cause the idea was to have limited um {disfmarker} it was to have sizable amount of information on it. Limited number of buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah {gap}.
Project Manager:'Cause it was sixteen buttons, wasn't it that were {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah we got it down to not too many.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Um and I think that's all I had to say for that.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Are we are we gonna go through the design of all the buttons at the moment, or are we gonna t
Marketing: I've I've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, maybe we should see yours first.
User Interface: Oh okay.
Marketing: Cool. Right, um I've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one {disfmarker} that's the one I talked about last time, that we'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them, what was bad, what they used. And we've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment. So we've had people in Paris and Milan watching the uh fashion trends.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You know {gap} yourself. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation. The most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Marketing: And second, there should be some technological innovation. And then third and l less important than the other two, there should be an ease of use as well. And apparently, the fashion trends {vocalsound} are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um but um the feel of the material should be spongy,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: which is contrary to last year, apparently. I presume it must have been not not spongy last year.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else. And then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap. And then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that's as a third priority, so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we've as we've discussed.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people's imaginations. So maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg, or the the buttons could be spongy, uh somehow. Maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic. And then sort of even wackier than that, we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote, say in the shape of a banana or something like that. {vocalsound} Right, so that'll be it.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe a banana or courgette or something. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: How how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends, do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget, or or you know, do they not matter that much?
User Interface: I think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped, it might make it more complicated to use.
Project Manager: Well you were just talking about you've got to be careful how you shape your buttons,'cause you're can mis-direct people. And I would've thought the functionality {disfmarker}'cause the people get cheesed off by things {disfmarker} by having to read instructions et cetera, so.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: . . .
User Interface: Maybe just one button, say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions. Maybe that could be a little apple.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Maybe yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. Now? Yeah.
User Interface: And then that wouldn't get in the way of like kinda one to nine,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and it wouldn't confuse the numbers.
Project Manager: Stand-by button. No th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people, if you're looking for functionality.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well I dunno I I guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment, but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are,
Project Manager: But what are they gonna be next {disfmarker} Yeah. What are they gonna be next year. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm. S
Project Manager: But but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr If y if you change all the buttons then you've got the problem that this year's fruit and veg, next year's uh {vocalsound} I was gonna say animals or elephants or w whatever.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Project Manager: That means you're constantly changing your production schedule,
Marketing: I'm not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and you've gotta make different moulds and everything else,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: so that's not a good idea I would I would suggest.
Marketing: I'm not I'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we're thinking of selling the product over is. I don't know.
Industrial Designer: I mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market isn't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to something which is maybe more universal.
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: But I suppose as long as it's quite a subtle design,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: um even if the design kind of changes, {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: We c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly.
Project Manager: Ah d d But if {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about, um.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Well. Yep.
Industrial Designer: Maybe still with a rubber design we could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Was that in the sort of fashion sense that this {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion? It was, wasn't it?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So the {disfmarker}
User Interface: It seems like you're gonna have rubber cases, as well as buttons.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um.
User Interface: And that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Um oh no no no
User Interface: Oh right, that fits, doesn't it?
Industrial Designer: sorry it's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons. That's the way round. If you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it. Which makes sense.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Rubber buttons require rubber case. {gap}
Industrial Designer: Um.
User Interface: And that would fit in with what we want, wouldn't it, for the spongy feel, to have everything rubber.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Uh so, yeah. The m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change?'Cause in essence in the production you want things to stay {disfmarker} you want to basically mint them out
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager:'cause if you've got fashion changes and that you're incorporating, then it means that your stock is um is last year's stock
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and therefore you're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you wouldn't want to do. Whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year, uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like, rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle.
Marketing: Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: You're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and especially'cause then you could make it something that {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Well, you might be limited in space, that {vocalsound} yes.
Industrial Designer: {gap} would or not. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Well you two are obviously gonna find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is Plasticine.
User Interface: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yes yes.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: like the Nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside. But whether that would be too much to incorporate in production,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: whether that would just increase the costs,
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: make it more complicated.
Project Manager: So you're talking there about uh changing changing the casing.
Marketing: That's possibly it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside, so where the buttons would stay the same, and the general function of the remote would stay the same,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but you could change the the way it looked.
User Interface: Yeah and then you could have {disfmarker} Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true.
User Interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that.
Project Manager: Yeah you you could do a colour change, so therefore you would yeah yeah {disfmarker} I mean that's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones, was to have some in blue, some in red, some in {disfmarker} rather than all in black
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: or, you know, which four do you want, as long as it's black? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: But uh so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So it is a possibility, um.
User Interface: But we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme, aren't we?
Project Manager: Yes oh that's true
User Interface: We haven't really seen that yet
Industrial Designer: Oh okay yes
Project Manager: uh that might no
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: that is {disfmarker}
User Interface: It might {disfmarker} and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things.
Project Manager: Well not necessarily, because you could have your company uh {disfmarker} We're we're meant to be finishing up. You could have your company badge and logo. I mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you've got there, it actually has a sort of um stick on badge
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so what you would al all you would really need, whether it, you know, whether the casing be w any colour, could be any colour, but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense, with a with a logo like that, because it's on a white background, the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager:'Cause you you know you're sort of you're badging it.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And in fact the way they've got that there even if you had that on a white, which is the predominant colour of the uh the Windows badge, you'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Project Manager: So.
Industrial Designer: And whether we'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Well if it's for young people, um like the phone generation, that sort of thing'd probably go down well,
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: and the market research has been on that side of things, hasn't it?
Marketing: Yeah, I mean it's people say that it's the look, they want the fancy looking thing but I'm {disfmarker} Yeah. I'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into. I think with the mobiles, it's the, you know it's a communication device, people see you with it all about and
Industrial Designer: Yeah I suppose,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time.
Marketing: i if it
Project Manager: It's uh in in the house, isn't it, I suppose.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay, so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So don't change case.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Change case colour. And we're sort of saying no to that.
User Interface: Did we decide on the rubber case? The spongy feel, or did we think that that might go as a trend?
Marketing: Well, it was different last year. The trend was different last year apparently. It was not not spongy feel. But {disfmarker} I don't know whether the trend will change. I don't know whether it's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys, that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you're gonna end up hating in a year, you know.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, less likely to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sounds reasonable. {vocalsound} {gap} If you're going for fashion trends like that they'll need t you'd have to have interchangeable cases
Industrial Designer: So then th th that would {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so that you could {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: or'cause otherwise someone's gonna have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap} it seems to make sense that we we'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Um.
User Interface: Uh we haven't really talked about uh the curvature of the case. There's flat,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: there's single-curved and there's double-curved.
Industrial Designer: Um. Mayb
User Interface: I'm not exactly sure what these things look like.
Industrial Designer: Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel? But the double curve wouldn't require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well it says that {disfmarker}
Marketing: When you say d when you say double-curved, what what exactly does that mean?
User Interface: I'm not exactly sure. {vocalsound} Um I'll show you the remotes that I've got.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: See how uh {disfmarker} Let's just get that bigger. See how uh the one {disfmarker} Oh I'm not plugged in, am I?
Marketing: No you're not connected to me anymore. {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That doesn't help. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: One one thing to cons
User Interface: Shall I just turn it round for time?
Project Manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um {disfmarker} by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other
Marketing: {gap} That should come up.
Project Manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can {disfmarker} if you can store them up on top of each other.
Marketing: Mm {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Whereas if you do um fancy things with it, you then gotta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that. And the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So shall we go through quickly and just work out what we've decide on, if we have to kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um it's not very clear up there,
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges, like the second one and the end one uh where there's a curve there.
Project Manager: Mm yep.
Marketing: Right.
User Interface: I'm not exactl I don't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly, or?
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's what I was trying to work out.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um it is a kinda sleeker look if you've got curves in there.
Project Manager: Oh right. S so do you wanna go for curves, more curves?
Marketing: Shall we
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: We're meant to be f we're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so.
User Interface: Definitely a single, maybe a double.
Industrial Designer:'Kay, so shall we quickly {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Shall we go for single curve, just to compromise?
Industrial Designer: We'll go for single curve, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay,
Industrial Designer: Single curve.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: curved or double curved? So it's single curved.
Industrial Designer: So did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply? The one you move around?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah I think that think that's a good idea.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Um {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: And the rubber push buttons, rubber case.
Marketing: Rubber {disfmarker} Rubber buttons and case.
User Interface: Um and we don't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we,
Industrial Designer: Oh we ca
User Interface: but possibly a sticker.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, we'll still have the {disfmarker} Are we gonna go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down? I th I think we can by by not having anything too complicated {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah and and the voice recognition, we can use that can't we, just to find it. Without affecting the circuit board.
Project Manager: Yes. Yep.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um.
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that's just something to {disfmarker} that we seemed to leave out.
Marketing: Okay. And then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit. {vocalsound} Or veg.
User Interface: Yeah that sounds like it wouldn't do too much harm in a couple of years. Uh what sort of shape do we want?
Project Manager: So we've got spongy feel buttons as well, have we?
Marketing: Don't know, maybe just
Project Manager: As well as {disfmarker} or w or was that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. That's ru rubber buttons, yeah.
Project Manager: So it's rubber buttons,
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so it's not really spongy feel buttons, it's just rubber buttons. With a rubber case right?
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, so it's not too wacky.
Marketing: Reasonably spongy I guess, yeah.
Project Manager: And the standby button is gonna be different.
Marketing: Yeah okay.
User Interface: Um I think an apple would be a good recognisable shape. If you start getting into kinda aubergines and things, it gets a bit weird.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay so what what shape are we making the standby button?
Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Apple?
Project Manager: A apple.
User Interface: Vote?
Project Manager: Oh oh {disfmarker} Sorry?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Shall we vote on it?
Industrial Designer: We will go for the a a a apples apples.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Anyone got any suggestions?
Marketing: Apple apple a a qu Quite a big one, as well.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay. Ah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} A big apple. Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well it could be red.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Could be a red apple, yeah. Either, don't mind.
Project Manager: A red apple? Is it?
User Interface: Yeah'cause we wanna incorporate a bit of colour if we can, once we find out um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay. And then we're gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna work on keeping the button design quite simple? Just like the {disfmarker} Just working out what we're gonna do for the next time.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Um.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah that seems pretty straight forward.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface:'Cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Project Manager: Sorry what was that last thing again there?
User Interface: Uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple.
Project Manager: Right {gap} much option on that. I thought you were going for a single curve and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah just the uh shape of the buttons.
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: And j yeah, just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well. Fairly sort of self explanatory.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Right, so shape of buttons simple. Okay. So that's that, I guess. We should now go away and get these things sorted out. {gap} I guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, so um.
Industrial Designer: Is that the end? Okay.
Marketing: Looks like it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. | The project manager gave a brief review of the last meeting. After the Industrial Designer's presentation about the components of the remote and team's discussion about it, the team agreed that the kinetic power supply, simple push buttons and a simple circuit board and a finder feature are better choices for the remote. Then, the team discussed the design of the remote. They made the decision that standard rubber case and rubber buttons and a single curve are better choices for the remote, and the shape of buttons should be simple. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Uh it fell off. One, two, three, four, yeah, we're ready. Okay. Welcome to this second meeting. Um it's now quarter after twelve and we're given forty minutes um for this meeting. This is a meeting on functional design. Um and I wanna welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between. Um I did {disfmarker} took the minutes from the first meeting and I'll show them to you in a moment. Um I know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes, I thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes, um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more, maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion, because there's {disfmarker} I happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have. Okay? Is this ap everybody agree with this?
Industrial Designer: Oops.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: Okay. Um and after the meeting there'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch, um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions. {vocalsound} Um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting. And go to that one. Um as you can see it was this earlier today. Um Kate, Steph, Sarah and myself in our four capacities were present. I opened the meeting, the product was developed uh and reviewed, and we talked about the financial end of it. Um and it had some implications, um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons, bright colours and some of the influence of the Japanese. And we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting {vocalsound} Anybody have any questions on those minutes? Are they complete, did they discuss everything that we covered last time?'Kay.
Industrial Designer: Uh I think so,
Project Manager: Did I miss something?
Industrial Designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yeah. I'm afraid I incorporated {vocalsound} that when I said who was present, but {disfmarker} yes, we did,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I accept the minutes.
Project Manager: but I didn't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily. So um as a group I think we've {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} they're accepting the minutes. And uh {disfmarker} okay.
Marketing: Is that what we're supposed to say?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, I do.
Project Manager: Good. Um, then we'll move to the three presentations. Okay?
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay. Mm we need to move this. Who wants to go f first? {vocalsound} That's as far as it goes.
User Interface: Uh not really meant to touch those microphones. Oh it doesn't have any on, does it? That's fine.
Marketing: Excellent, thank you.
Industrial Designer: Oy, big loop under the table.
Project Manager: She said we didn't need to screw it in.
Marketing: Okay. Okay, that looks good.
Project Manager: It's doing its thing. There we are.
Marketing: Alright. Thank you very much. Um. One of the the biggest issues I found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and I think that this is an opportunity to really take Real Reaction in the direction of of similar {disfmarker} of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device, as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you. So um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools. Um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now, and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard. And if we devote some energy into this, I think the um recent productions of Real Reaction, the I go everywhere power and the high definition D_V_D_ players {disfmarker} although it makes immediate sense to {vocalsound} have our remote control interact with these, I think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools. And um in fact I think the high definition D_V_D_ players and all of this will come along in the uh {disfmarker} will only benefit from the positive feedback {vocalsound} from our well designed tool. So again, most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls. Um {vocalsound} fifty percent {disfmarker} I think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons. And eighty percent of users, and if we think about this {vocalsound} there are a lot of uh television, D_V_D_, stereo remote control users out there, eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy.
Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} can I ask where these figures come from, is this market research we've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room, so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money.
Project Manager: Now in between, as the Project Manager, they sent me an email from the powers that be
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: um that teletext is outdated um
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and the internet is coming in as important, but that they want this remote control to only be for T_V_ um with incorporating the corporate image, colour and slogan.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Well I think we can {disfmarker} I I think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the Real Reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools, even if we directly don't um advertise {vocalsound} for the I go everywhere line.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: So an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question. So these market research uh uh questionnaires {vocalsound} looked into your your uh concern about technology
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Now the early adopters, those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it, the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities, ninety one percent of them {vocalsound} would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control. Very interesting, I I leave this up to the group to decide if we wanna use this uh if {disfmarker} and you know, the the designers,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: but ninety one percent, fifteen to twenty five {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that a large enough target market to target it?
Marketing: Well, I I I think {disfmarker} especially in terms of growth, I think this would be a very smart group to target. I mean s three quarters of the next age group, twenty five to thirty five are interested, and uh with the technologies improving, if we can get these uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: In real numbers, does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. To {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um yes.
Project Manager: Or eight million.
Marketing: Yes. But would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did I know that it was it was an {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: that's a that's a very good question.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know if speech recognition should be um should be included,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: but I think it's an interesting {disfmarker} I think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research
Marketing: Shall I go back?
User Interface: on like how much more it would be and any, you know, existing examples,
Marketing: Yeah, yeah.
User Interface: and what reactions to them have been, and that sort of thing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: How d I'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things. I expect an Industrial Designer should know that, but if we're aiming to to build this thing for twelve Euros fifty, um is that a lot or a little?
Marketing: Exactly. I mean I I I uh did not receive any information on that, but I think the competition, sussing out what other people are doing and what's in the pipeline is very very important, because um there is a question about do you want an L_C_D_ screen and and that wasn't responded to, but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate, you know, so it turns into something {disfmarker} uh perhaps you all have seen uh the Osbournes where Ozzy Osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sh surely he's in the wrong age group.
Marketing: You know,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's {disfmarker} I a and I think, you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: He must be w one of a s small population. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No, no,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: you {disfmarker} Kate, you're exactly right there. {vocalsound} But I think the key is to get the early adopters, people who are familiar with technology and and uh they'll be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But we're not looking at whether they're early adopters on that screen,
Marketing: Uh, mm.
Project Manager: that's looking at age groups.
Marketing: Exactly. I {vocalsound} yes, and I'm making and I'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar {disfmarker} younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people. Or comfortable,
Project Manager: Leap. {vocalsound} Hmm. Mm.
Marketing: you know, um so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, you had the other power channel.
Marketing: I think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist, power, channel, volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers. {vocalsound} And this is this is also supported by the market research.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Thank you. That's my contribution.
Project Manager: Alright. And we'll turn to the next presentation. I think she said we don't need to screw it in, just stick it in. And then press, what? F F_N_ and F_ eight. Next to the control button on the bottom, and then F_ eight at the top.
User Interface: Yeah, press them.
Project Manager: And then w be patient. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, here we go.
Project Manager: Tada.
Industrial Designer: And if you want it to go into slide show mode, it's that little button there.
User Interface: Can I not just uh do each one in order?
Industrial Designer: I you can if you like, it it {disfmarker} that that just sets it up to do a p a p
Project Manager: There we are. Yay.
User Interface: That?
Industrial Designer: no that one, that one there.
User Interface: That?
Industrial Designer: Left, left a bit, left a bit, that one, yep.
User Interface: That? Right, technical functions design. Uh well I think first off, basically I do agree with what Sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences, yeah. I think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions. So my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have. And what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have. If we can build on this with the speech recognition, that's not something I'd thought about at all, but it's also something we can discuss.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Um and and I presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or D_V_D_ remote control, if this is only gonna be a, you know, satellite, cable, T_V_ remote control.
Project Manager: T_V_ only.
User Interface: So these are two models of existing remote controls. Uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ugh.
User Interface: It has fast-forward, stop, play, all relating to movies. It also has {disfmarker} seems to have channel up and channel down, which is which is more what you'd expect from a, you know, like a Sky or cable remote control
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: where you've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one. Uh but I think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right, which has {disfmarker} it also has play, stop and pause and everything, I don't think we need them at all. I think we just need channel selection, volume up, volume down and I think an an enter function where you can access {disfmarker} it's not like teletext, but along the same lines, access things on the screen. Uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned, because that'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do.
Project Manager: Mm. And exceed the requirements they're expecting of us.
User Interface: So it really exceed the requirements,'cause the requirements really are just {disfmarker} want to be able to change channels and functions, which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: o I was thinking something {disfmarker} some smooth, sleek, little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access.
Project Manager: Alright.
User Interface: Uh but then I do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility.
Project Manager: Okay. Any uh thing else you wanna add?
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: But we could go back to the pictures of the {disfmarker} uh, what're they called? The pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them,
Marketing: Or if {disfmarker}
User Interface: but {vocalsound} maybe should hear what Kate has to say first.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Let's hear what Kate has to say.
User Interface: Okay then.
Marketing: Maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} the one on the right as a as a basis.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Whiteboard session.
Project Manager: I think the white {disfmarker} that one on the right is, as well as less cluttered, {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Definitely less cluttered and {disfmarker} I mean but still it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's there
User Interface: Sorry
Project Manager: but it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: I was just {disfmarker} I'll just uh resume something else I was gonna say.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: The the style of these is terrible.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I I I really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials, like the type of plastic used, but everything including size and shape of buttons, positioning of buttons, the actual shape of the hand-held device, colours, just every e yeah, everything to do with this has to be revolutionised. {vocalsound}
Marketing: The ergonomics, the way it fits in your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: So that's that for now.
Industrial Designer: Cheers. Mm, I haven't actually got a display on my screen.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Still, I'll do without that. Okay um, now I wanna bring us down to earth again I'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work. {vocalsound} Um oh and this is the methodology I used in preparing for this meeting. Um basically I've been doing a little bit of web-based research, {vocalsound} and if I had a design team, I would've been discussing my ideas with'em. But the the net result is that I've come up with a first cut for the working design that I'd like to discuss with you. So, let's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is. It's for sending a message, um typically um via infrared. {vocalsound} And the the basic components we've got to build in for our twelve Euros fifty are um an energy source, the user interface and {disfmarker} which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the {disfmarker} which buttons the user presses, we turn that into a message, um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver. Now I would have hoped {disfmarker} I think that's my only slide actually, yeah. I would have have hoped to um do you a pretty PowerPoint slide of um my first cut design, but unfortunately the technology defeated me, so if you'll bear with me I'll do it on the whiteboard. {vocalsound} So we want an energy source which is there. And we've got to think about what that might be.
Project Manager: Hmm-mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh we obviously don't want wires on this thing. Uh typically it would be a battery, but I'm open to suggestions. {vocalsound} Um and then we have the the user interface. Oops. And the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message, which it then transfers to some sending mechanism, which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver. So those are the basic things that we've got to get in for our twelve Euros fifty. {vocalsound} Thank you.
Project Manager: Hmm. {vocalsound} Okay. Right. But those things {disfmarker} as long as we can get those components, the block, that that rectangle for the user interface, is where the user comes in of {disfmarker} what what does it look like? What do the buttons look like? Uh what does it feel like? That's where the user interface is really coming into its own.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: The technical end is what's actually gonna be in there, but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong. For example the battery energy source or um what if the chip, for whatever reason, breaks down after a certain amount of time, do you just replace it? Um is there any um {disfmarker} because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces, like for D_V_D_s, movies, whatever. Um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others, in a different frequency or something?
Industrial Designer: Well I may be wrong here, but I'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device. We're trying to sell four million of'em,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: um that's that's, you know, that's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is. Um and I hadn't thought of it as being a reparable thing,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: you just {disfmarker} if it goes wrong you chuck it out, and that's why I'm a bit concerned. I like the idea of speech recognition, that's a great idea, but I'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need {disfmarker} gonna need to hit.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Whoop.
Marketing: Do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Isn't that your job?
Marketing: Because then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh right.
Marketing: the chip composer marketing. Oh no, the chip composer sender.
Project Manager: Mm. What they cost.
Industrial Designer: Um, I'm I'm I'm hoping that my personal coach is gonna {vocalsound} give me some advice on that, if you're asking me,
Marketing: I I don't believe I know, um.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: It does it does seem as if we're just to do something really simple and mass-produced, the {disfmarker} which is pretty much the same as these existing models,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired,
Marketing: Inspired?
User Interface: but basically just the same.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Although what what uh suddenly came into my head is, you know how they always take two A_A_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all. Could it be possible to have uh, you know, like a rechargeable internal battery, like, well, like an M_P_ three player does? With that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: You could {disfmarker} you know, you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours, and then it's recharged for ages and ages and ages, and you don't have to worry with replacing A_A_ batteries,
Marketing: Well
User Interface: which are {disfmarker}
Marketing: that has another element, which is if every time you're done using the remote you put it on a charger, then you {disfmarker} then it has a place.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: You'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, but it also has a place,
User Interface: And it's not stuck down the back of the sofa.
Marketing: so {disfmarker} exactly.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But then again I d I don't know if this is within our price range or not.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's a really good idea.
Industrial Designer: Well I uh think that's a very interesting idea, but um I'm not a very good industrial designer and I don't know much about what these things cost. {vocalsound} I'll do some research for the next meeting.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well it's better than my idea about solar, probably. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well solar may not be so good when you're watching T_V_ in the night,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Well it is just so annoying how {disfmarker}
Marketing: Depen
Project Manager: It would have to sor store up the energy
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I guess.
Project Manager: and then use it. Solar can do that.
Industrial Designer: We may be talking quite heavy then.
Project Manager: M yeah, that would be too heavy
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and it'd cost too much.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: No, but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably {disfmarker} I mean it might cost more to {disfmarker} at first to develop and to install,
Marketing: Mm-hmm
User Interface: but for long-term use it'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky A_A_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and
Industrial Designer: So do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop?
User Interface: you know f
Marketing: Definitely,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing:'cause I'm thinking in terms of um uh {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} loss and breakage of um remotes, how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home, a um a nest, a place to live,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Sort of have its little dock that you could put it in.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: exactly.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So if you can dock it, um you know, you could s argue that this is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent.
Marketing: Exactly.
User Interface: Still I don't know if it's quite within our price range.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Mm.'Cause you are talking about another component, like another piece of hardware.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Are we agreed as to what our target group is though? Pretty much, so that we'd be looking for the younger end.
Marketing: Well I I brought up some {disfmarker} exactly, but I think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there, or are they making purchasing decisions?
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah,
Marketing: You know,
Industrial Designer: I was wondering that,
Marketing: these are the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because I ag I agree that there there're people with uh how can I put it, more money than sense and who are liable to buy {vocalsound} something new,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I s usually put more money than brains.
Marketing: Yeah, exactly.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Bu but what I was gonna say was, although they they may be buying um, you know, personal music devices and all that,
Marketing: Oh oh oh I'll make a note of that, Kate. Good, good comment.
Industrial Designer: are they necessarily buying T_V_ remote controls? Because they probably live in a household that has a T_V_ if they're at the lower end of the age range,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I don't know.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It might be good to know um uh who, you know, who's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home?
Industrial Designer: Mm. I think we've got a big hill to climb here, haven't we? I mean we've gotta persuade people who've got a remote control'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer? We sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it.
Industrial Designer: Right, good point. Yeah, yeah okay, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, good point.
User Interface: That's probably more what it is.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: What would be a more efficient way of doing it?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, and and some of our D_V_D_ players incidentally have them, because we have the relationship with our own department, but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Right.
User Interface: {vocalsound} We're not gonna get any resolutions by the end of the day,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably not.
User Interface: are we?
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Um the other thing that we're supposed to do is make decision on our functions. Our functions, we've so far decided, I think, that power, channel, volume make it attractive. Um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys. It has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n {vocalsound} definitely we wanna be inspired that the current {vocalsound} styles are just plain awful.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Do we need {disfmarker} um let me {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that agreeable to everyone?
Marketing: Br actually, um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: the enter key {disfmarker} I have a chart here that I didn't include. Um
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Do you want the gizmo?
Marketing: yeah, which might {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Throw some light on that.
Marketing: Th yeah, th those are {disfmarker} {vocalsound} felt like had a lot of charts. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um actually we're, you know, we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes, so we have to get close to finishing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay, I I {disfmarker} my only comment is I think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only {disfmarker} just really in terms of streamlining.
Project Manager: Ah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Enter, power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Exactly. Again, you know,
Project Manager: Is that okay with you?
Marketing: thinking of menus or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sorry,
Project Manager: Would that {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: H how does that work?
User Interface: I was miles away.
Industrial Designer: How {disfmarker} so so how does that work,
User Interface: I was re I was reading the chart to be honest.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um well
Project Manager: uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wanna press enter?
Marketing: if you're pressing enter, the the thing would already be on, and so maybe um when you press power, initially it turns it on, press power again and use that as an enter um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then you'd have to have an off te off key.
Marketing: so you press power after you've um {disfmarker} well I was thinking maybe you {disfmarker} to turn it off you'd have to press power twice in succession,
Industrial Designer: Okay, yep, mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power, and then that would make that choice.
Industrial Designer: It's not getting a bit complicated? Could granny do this,
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or are we just not aiming at granny?
Marketing: Or y yeah. Or something that has a a turning dial, where at the far end is on or off. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Who's got an iPod then? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah,
Project Manager: Mm. Okay.
Marketing: I don't {disfmarker} um I wish. Anyway, uh {vocalsound} that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made, what's most important.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: It's definitely channel, volume, power.
User Interface: Yeah, things like screen settings and audio settings, I would generally do them on the actual television itself,
Marketing: Exactly.
User Interface: like here you have a you know, a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself.
Marketing: Exactly.
User Interface: I I wouldn't know how to do it using a remote control,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: so um I would say that they are definitely less relevant.
Project Manager: Okay. So
Marketing: Okay, well. Thanks for looking at that.
Project Manager: I guess easy to use is the other thing that we want'em to be able to do.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: As you said, you know, don't make it too hard for the granny. {vocalsound}
Marketing: We don't wanna outsmart {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I just joined that set last week.
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} first grandchild arrived.
Marketing: Congratulations. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Project Manager: Um so are we agreed then of those things? And let's go back to agenda
Marketing: D
Project Manager: and hook me up. Mm. This oughta be fun. It probably won't go the first time, it'll probably be like a g mess. Come on. Uh it lost it off here. {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh you're fine. It's fine.
Project Manager: No, it was up there, but I couldn't see it down here. Mm. This time it should be both. There we go.
Industrial Designer: How do you do that? How do you make it do both?
Project Manager: Um you have to keep doing the financi the the F_N_ and F_ eight to {disfmarker} five minutes to finish,
Industrial Designer: Ah okay, it toggles through,
Project Manager: thank you a lot for telling me.
Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um right,
Marketing: I think you have to cycle through.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: we're ready to close. Um {gap} will be completed q questionnaire, um then we'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and I'll put some minutes of this meeting together. Um your individual assignments are for um Kate to do the components, for you, Steph, to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching. Um and each of us will get help from our coach. Are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch?
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sounds good.
Project Manager: Then that's the end of this meeting. And I hope that's good enough for her {vocalsound} to tell her that's the end. Okay?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: We didn't come to any sort of decision on the functions though.
Project Manager: Well I think I went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them.
User Interface: Alright, well that's fine then.
Project Manager: Um that's what I went over and nobody was objecting to them.
Marketing: Okay. Um and you'd mentioned {disfmarker} I I was just gonna say, could you reiterate the new project requirements,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: because it {disfmarker} they were {disfmarker} it has to be for a T_V_, just to keep myself {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um the teletext is outdated,
Industrial Designer: So we're still in meeting, aren't we? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: the internet is important,
Marketing: Yeah, I think I've {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's only to be for a T_V_ and it must include the corporate image, colour and slogan um
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: which I think is more in the user uh range, with Steph.
User Interface: Mm. Sorry, what what actually are these {disfmarker} is that the yellow and black?
Project Manager: It doesn't tell me.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: From their {disfmarker} I'll just use it from their website.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Right. Thank you. | The meeting mainly focused on the functional design of the remote control. After Project Manager reviewed the last meeting briefly, Marketing made a presentation about re-envisioning the menu functionality, current technology, and interaction with other tools of the remote control by discarding unnecessary buttons and adding the speech recognition to the remote control according to market research. User Interface argued that they should discard the existing standard, and only keep the basic and user-friendly functions like channel selection, volume and enter key. The group then discussed the source of power whether to have a charger or solar power. Although solar energy was fancy and environmentally friendly, the cost was much higher than using a charger. The group faced some difficulty when deciding the target group whether for the young end or for the lower end of the age range who have more money than sense. In the next part, the group reached a consensus in terms of the keys of the remote control, which is power, channel, volume, enter, number. | qmsum |
What did the group discuss about the unintended consequences for this Bill?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children's Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?
Alastair Birch: Bore da--bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always--ADEW will always--advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles--. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is--the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?
Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20,25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring--the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?
Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know--we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?
Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?
Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity--I think that is really important--and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising--because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.
Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see--. [Laughter. ]
Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill--local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?
Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted--a key consultee--but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.
Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything--and that's the discussion that we need to have--that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?
Sally Jenkins: We've done--. A number of local authorities--my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that--
Dawn Bowden AM: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on--we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.
Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity--ambiguity would be bad--in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that--. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?
Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that--. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?
Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life--I'm sure you've heard those views--unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?
Huw David: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view--it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child--that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?
Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments--children's social services in particular--are overstretched. They are at breaking point--make no bones about it--and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.
Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.
Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said,'Is it increased austerity?'That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's something that affects them. And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child. It has become significantly--. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements.
Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools?
Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also--. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked?
Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What, if a child is being smacked now?
Sally Jenkins: Yes. If a child is being smacked now, we would ask that people contact. We have a duty to report, as professionals. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Right.
Sally Jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about--we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. I think we can't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Thank you. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.'It also says,'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child--under the new definition--'so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap--'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.'To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted?
Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families'lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. It's not about us going into families, whatever some of the public perception may be. Our aim is to get in and get out. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. This is not about punitive approaches from social services. So, that's the first element. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. So it's diminishing as it is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will--obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that--is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services--I know in my own authority--in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system.
Sally Jenkins: Two things. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society--we don't want the two to be out of kilter. That would be my first natural response: surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Are there any comments from anyone else?
Huw David: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted--seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis--that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told--and they probably are being told--by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. They don't know the difference. A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is--. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, where's that line.
Huw David: Well, at the moment, we don't know where that line is. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. So, that would be a step forward. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do--and the last thing any of us want to do--is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in--we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer--if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation--if this legislation is passed--then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services'interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions?
Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. So, we get a very, very large number of--. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. It's 10 o'clock, so they're assessing them now, as we speak. And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated?
Sally Jenkins: No. There will be no action. There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness--
Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on?
Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It'll be where the level of harm that's perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they've been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I've had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But if you're struggling now with those assessments--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this?
Sally Jenkins: Yes, absolutely.
Huw David: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it's a multi-agency assessment. So, it's a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked?
Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now, before the legislation?
Sally Jenkins: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover.
Huw David: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example--
Sally Jenkins: Or prevention.
Huw David: --or prevention services. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home,'There's no role for children's social services', because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. So, just to be clear about that. And that's a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it's happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it's reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members.
Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there, Huw? Because I'm very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I'm hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services.
Huw David: There's not enough of those services, and, obviously--you may have heard me saying this before--I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they're only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse--we'll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months'time, and that could escalate. And what I'd rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. But those services need additional investment.
Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it's not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child.
Alastair Birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority--and it'll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o'clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, your last question, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services?
Sally Jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. There's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment?
Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. If we were offered additional resource, we are going to take that. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from Jayne Bryant.
Jayne Bryant AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted?
Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. The universal tier 1 training is there, and all local authorities in Wales will implement that. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. That will remain the same. The thresholds for social care, that's their responsibility. That duty to report will always be there. It says in'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm--because that's what we're talking about--they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness--it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals. They have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. So, there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure--and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw--that the services are key for families. Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families. They have those relationships with the families. I know there was discussion around professional trust. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children--they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. So, anything that's preventative. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base--we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. So, that's really my answer.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust?
Alastair Birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust--it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually,'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.'Some of the NFAs--the ones that don't get referred at threshold--it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. So, I don't think--. The trust in the professionals--it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. That's what engenders trust in a professional workforce.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work?
Sally Jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness--I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. So, there are a number of avenues that we could then explore. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent--they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. So far, the Welsh Government says that we don't need to do that in Wales. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that?
Huw David: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make--[Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's why I'm asking.
Huw David: I don't know whether that is necessary--I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. But is it clear who would pay for all of that?
Huw David: I've suddenly changed my mind--[Laughter. ] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers--absolutely. I don't need to check with lawyers or legislators. There we go. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen.
Sally Jenkins: I'm going to echo Huw. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might. Okay, fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that?
Sally Jenkins: I don't think so, no. I think that our children deserve the best legislation.
Hefin David AM: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services--or doesn't?
Sally Jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services--that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that.
Hefin David AM: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness--all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. Is it too much? Is it--?
Sally Jenkins: No. And I agree with that--that there clearly are--but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. What this does is it layers a clarity on that. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect--that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions.
Hefin David AM: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services?
Sally Jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into--. I can think of better ways, but I don't think this is it. No, I mean, I absolutely do not think that. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. Oh that it was so simple.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable?
Sally Jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. So, there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Sian--
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian Gwenllian has got a question on resources.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just to carry on from that, in a way. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title'unidentified costs'--is that good enough?
Sally Jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then they can be added into this.
Huw David: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that,'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then,'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.'We have to get the costs, surely.
Huw David: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. There will be some costs that we will be able to identify. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. Obviously, my view is the more we put into that, the better. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming.
Huw David: And thank you for your questions and engagement. We welcome the opportunity.
Alastair Birch: Thank you very much.
Sally Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government--additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | Huw David thought there were no unintended consequences if the Bill was implemented carefully with the right resources. Then he talked about the increasing number of looked-after children in Wales, and Sally Jenkins helped to explain the reasons for this. Alastair Birch thought that there would be an increased focus on the UNCRC. In addition, children need to be part of the discussion in terms of children having a discussion around this point, which would affect them. Improving the voice of the child in any educational context would be good and powerful for children, which would be a positive unintended consequence, and it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts. | qmsum |
Summarize the specific questions and answers on the impact on education.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children's Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?
Alastair Birch: Bore da--bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always--ADEW will always--advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles--. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is--the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?
Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20,25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring--the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?
Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know--we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?
Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?
Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity--I think that is really important--and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising--because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.
Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see--. [Laughter. ]
Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill--local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?
Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted--a key consultee--but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.
Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything--and that's the discussion that we need to have--that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?
Sally Jenkins: We've done--. A number of local authorities--my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that--
Dawn Bowden AM: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on--we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.
Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity--ambiguity would be bad--in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that--. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?
Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that--. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?
Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life--I'm sure you've heard those views--unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?
Huw David: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view--it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child--that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?
Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments--children's social services in particular--are overstretched. They are at breaking point--make no bones about it--and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.
Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.
Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said,'Is it increased austerity?'That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's something that affects them. And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child. It has become significantly--. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements.
Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools?
Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also--. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked?
Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What, if a child is being smacked now?
Sally Jenkins: Yes. If a child is being smacked now, we would ask that people contact. We have a duty to report, as professionals. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Right.
Sally Jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about--we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. I think we can't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Thank you. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.'It also says,'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child--under the new definition--'so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap--'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.'To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted?
Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families'lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. It's not about us going into families, whatever some of the public perception may be. Our aim is to get in and get out. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. This is not about punitive approaches from social services. So, that's the first element. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. So it's diminishing as it is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will--obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that--is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services--I know in my own authority--in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system.
Sally Jenkins: Two things. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society--we don't want the two to be out of kilter. That would be my first natural response: surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Are there any comments from anyone else?
Huw David: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted--seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis--that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told--and they probably are being told--by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. They don't know the difference. A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is--. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, where's that line.
Huw David: Well, at the moment, we don't know where that line is. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. So, that would be a step forward. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do--and the last thing any of us want to do--is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in--we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer--if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation--if this legislation is passed--then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services'interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions?
Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. So, we get a very, very large number of--. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. It's 10 o'clock, so they're assessing them now, as we speak. And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated?
Sally Jenkins: No. There will be no action. There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness--
Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on?
Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It'll be where the level of harm that's perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they've been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I've had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But if you're struggling now with those assessments--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this?
Sally Jenkins: Yes, absolutely.
Huw David: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it's a multi-agency assessment. So, it's a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked?
Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now, before the legislation?
Sally Jenkins: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover.
Huw David: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example--
Sally Jenkins: Or prevention.
Huw David: --or prevention services. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home,'There's no role for children's social services', because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. So, just to be clear about that. And that's a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it's happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it's reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members.
Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there, Huw? Because I'm very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I'm hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services.
Huw David: There's not enough of those services, and, obviously--you may have heard me saying this before--I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they're only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse--we'll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months'time, and that could escalate. And what I'd rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. But those services need additional investment.
Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it's not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child.
Alastair Birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority--and it'll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o'clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, your last question, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services?
Sally Jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. There's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment?
Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. If we were offered additional resource, we are going to take that. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from Jayne Bryant.
Jayne Bryant AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted?
Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. The universal tier 1 training is there, and all local authorities in Wales will implement that. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. That will remain the same. The thresholds for social care, that's their responsibility. That duty to report will always be there. It says in'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm--because that's what we're talking about--they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness--it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals. They have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. So, there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure--and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw--that the services are key for families. Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families. They have those relationships with the families. I know there was discussion around professional trust. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children--they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. So, anything that's preventative. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base--we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. So, that's really my answer.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust?
Alastair Birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust--it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually,'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.'Some of the NFAs--the ones that don't get referred at threshold--it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. So, I don't think--. The trust in the professionals--it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. That's what engenders trust in a professional workforce.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work?
Sally Jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness--I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. So, there are a number of avenues that we could then explore. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent--they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. So far, the Welsh Government says that we don't need to do that in Wales. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that?
Huw David: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make--[Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's why I'm asking.
Huw David: I don't know whether that is necessary--I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. But is it clear who would pay for all of that?
Huw David: I've suddenly changed my mind--[Laughter. ] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers--absolutely. I don't need to check with lawyers or legislators. There we go. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen.
Sally Jenkins: I'm going to echo Huw. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might. Okay, fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that?
Sally Jenkins: I don't think so, no. I think that our children deserve the best legislation.
Hefin David AM: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services--or doesn't?
Sally Jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services--that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that.
Hefin David AM: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness--all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. Is it too much? Is it--?
Sally Jenkins: No. And I agree with that--that there clearly are--but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. What this does is it layers a clarity on that. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect--that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions.
Hefin David AM: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services?
Sally Jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into--. I can think of better ways, but I don't think this is it. No, I mean, I absolutely do not think that. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. Oh that it was so simple.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable?
Sally Jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. So, there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Sian--
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian Gwenllian has got a question on resources.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just to carry on from that, in a way. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title'unidentified costs'--is that good enough?
Sally Jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then they can be added into this.
Huw David: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that,'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then,'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.'We have to get the costs, surely.
Huw David: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. There will be some costs that we will be able to identify. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. Obviously, my view is the more we put into that, the better. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming.
Huw David: And thank you for your questions and engagement. We welcome the opportunity.
Alastair Birch: Thank you very much.
Sally Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government--additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | There were totally two questions proposed on impact on education. First, Jayne Bryant asked how confident they were that teachers and others working in those educational settings would be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill. Alastair Birch responded that training requirements for all professionals in education settings were clear. The awareness needed to be clear for educational professionals that the duty to report was there. The second question was about whether there was a risk that those in education settings would have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust. Alastair Birch disagreed that this was a matter of mistrust. He thought if a professional believed there was significant harm to that child, they were under a duty to report that to social care. | qmsum |
How confident Alastair Birch was that teachers and others working in those educational settings would be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children's Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?
Alastair Birch: Bore da--bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always--ADEW will always--advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles--. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is--the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?
Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20,25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring--the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?
Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know--we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?
Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?
Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity--I think that is really important--and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising--because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.
Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see--. [Laughter. ]
Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill--local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?
Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted--a key consultee--but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.
Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything--and that's the discussion that we need to have--that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?
Sally Jenkins: We've done--. A number of local authorities--my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that--
Dawn Bowden AM: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on--we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.
Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity--ambiguity would be bad--in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that--. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?
Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that--. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?
Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life--I'm sure you've heard those views--unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?
Huw David: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view--it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child--that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?
Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments--children's social services in particular--are overstretched. They are at breaking point--make no bones about it--and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.
Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.
Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said,'Is it increased austerity?'That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's something that affects them. And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child. It has become significantly--. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements.
Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools?
Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also--. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked?
Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What, if a child is being smacked now?
Sally Jenkins: Yes. If a child is being smacked now, we would ask that people contact. We have a duty to report, as professionals. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Right.
Sally Jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about--we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. I think we can't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Thank you. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.'It also says,'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child--under the new definition--'so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap--'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.'To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted?
Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families'lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. It's not about us going into families, whatever some of the public perception may be. Our aim is to get in and get out. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. This is not about punitive approaches from social services. So, that's the first element. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. So it's diminishing as it is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will--obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that--is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services--I know in my own authority--in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system.
Sally Jenkins: Two things. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society--we don't want the two to be out of kilter. That would be my first natural response: surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Are there any comments from anyone else?
Huw David: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted--seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis--that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told--and they probably are being told--by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. They don't know the difference. A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is--. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, where's that line.
Huw David: Well, at the moment, we don't know where that line is. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. So, that would be a step forward. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do--and the last thing any of us want to do--is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in--we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer--if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation--if this legislation is passed--then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services'interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions?
Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. So, we get a very, very large number of--. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. It's 10 o'clock, so they're assessing them now, as we speak. And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated?
Sally Jenkins: No. There will be no action. There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness--
Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on?
Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It'll be where the level of harm that's perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they've been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I've had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But if you're struggling now with those assessments--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this?
Sally Jenkins: Yes, absolutely.
Huw David: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it's a multi-agency assessment. So, it's a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked?
Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now, before the legislation?
Sally Jenkins: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover.
Huw David: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example--
Sally Jenkins: Or prevention.
Huw David: --or prevention services. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home,'There's no role for children's social services', because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. So, just to be clear about that. And that's a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it's happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it's reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members.
Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there, Huw? Because I'm very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I'm hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services.
Huw David: There's not enough of those services, and, obviously--you may have heard me saying this before--I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they're only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse--we'll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months'time, and that could escalate. And what I'd rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. But those services need additional investment.
Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it's not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child.
Alastair Birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority--and it'll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o'clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, your last question, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services?
Sally Jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. There's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment?
Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. If we were offered additional resource, we are going to take that. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from Jayne Bryant.
Jayne Bryant AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted?
Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. The universal tier 1 training is there, and all local authorities in Wales will implement that. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. That will remain the same. The thresholds for social care, that's their responsibility. That duty to report will always be there. It says in'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm--because that's what we're talking about--they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness--it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals. They have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. So, there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure--and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw--that the services are key for families. Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families. They have those relationships with the families. I know there was discussion around professional trust. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children--they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. So, anything that's preventative. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base--we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. So, that's really my answer.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust?
Alastair Birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust--it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually,'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.'Some of the NFAs--the ones that don't get referred at threshold--it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. So, I don't think--. The trust in the professionals--it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. That's what engenders trust in a professional workforce.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work?
Sally Jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness--I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. So, there are a number of avenues that we could then explore. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent--they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. So far, the Welsh Government says that we don't need to do that in Wales. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that?
Huw David: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make--[Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's why I'm asking.
Huw David: I don't know whether that is necessary--I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. But is it clear who would pay for all of that?
Huw David: I've suddenly changed my mind--[Laughter. ] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers--absolutely. I don't need to check with lawyers or legislators. There we go. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen.
Sally Jenkins: I'm going to echo Huw. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might. Okay, fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that?
Sally Jenkins: I don't think so, no. I think that our children deserve the best legislation.
Hefin David AM: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services--or doesn't?
Sally Jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services--that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that.
Hefin David AM: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness--all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. Is it too much? Is it--?
Sally Jenkins: No. And I agree with that--that there clearly are--but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. What this does is it layers a clarity on that. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect--that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions.
Hefin David AM: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services?
Sally Jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into--. I can think of better ways, but I don't think this is it. No, I mean, I absolutely do not think that. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. Oh that it was so simple.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable?
Sally Jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. So, there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Sian--
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian Gwenllian has got a question on resources.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just to carry on from that, in a way. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title'unidentified costs'--is that good enough?
Sally Jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then they can be added into this.
Huw David: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that,'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then,'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.'We have to get the costs, surely.
Huw David: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. There will be some costs that we will be able to identify. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. Obviously, my view is the more we put into that, the better. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming.
Huw David: And thank you for your questions and engagement. We welcome the opportunity.
Alastair Birch: Thank you very much.
Sally Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government--additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | Training requirements for all professionals in education settings were clear. The bible in terms of education professionals included'keeping learners safe'. Therefore, the awareness needed to be clear for educational professionals that the duty to report was there. When they feel the significant harm happened, they should report this and it would go to the childcare assessment team. And schools were fundamental in the support for the families, since they had the relationships with the families. | qmsum |
Summarize their discussions on awareness raising.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children's Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?
Alastair Birch: Bore da--bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always--ADEW will always--advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles--. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is--the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?
Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20,25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring--the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?
Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know--we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?
Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?
Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity--I think that is really important--and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising--because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.
Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see--. [Laughter. ]
Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill--local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?
Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted--a key consultee--but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.
Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything--and that's the discussion that we need to have--that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?
Sally Jenkins: We've done--. A number of local authorities--my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that--
Dawn Bowden AM: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on--we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.
Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity--ambiguity would be bad--in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that--. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?
Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that--. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?
Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life--I'm sure you've heard those views--unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?
Huw David: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view--it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child--that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?
Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments--children's social services in particular--are overstretched. They are at breaking point--make no bones about it--and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.
Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.
Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said,'Is it increased austerity?'That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's something that affects them. And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child. It has become significantly--. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements.
Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools?
Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also--. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked?
Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What, if a child is being smacked now?
Sally Jenkins: Yes. If a child is being smacked now, we would ask that people contact. We have a duty to report, as professionals. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Right.
Sally Jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about--we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. I think we can't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Thank you. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.'It also says,'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child--under the new definition--'so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap--'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.'To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted?
Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families'lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. It's not about us going into families, whatever some of the public perception may be. Our aim is to get in and get out. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. This is not about punitive approaches from social services. So, that's the first element. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. So it's diminishing as it is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will--obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that--is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services--I know in my own authority--in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system.
Sally Jenkins: Two things. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society--we don't want the two to be out of kilter. That would be my first natural response: surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Are there any comments from anyone else?
Huw David: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted--seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis--that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told--and they probably are being told--by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. They don't know the difference. A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is--. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, where's that line.
Huw David: Well, at the moment, we don't know where that line is. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. So, that would be a step forward. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do--and the last thing any of us want to do--is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in--we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer--if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation--if this legislation is passed--then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services'interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions?
Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. So, we get a very, very large number of--. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. It's 10 o'clock, so they're assessing them now, as we speak. And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated?
Sally Jenkins: No. There will be no action. There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness--
Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on?
Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It'll be where the level of harm that's perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they've been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I've had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But if you're struggling now with those assessments--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this?
Sally Jenkins: Yes, absolutely.
Huw David: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it's a multi-agency assessment. So, it's a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked?
Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now, before the legislation?
Sally Jenkins: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover.
Huw David: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example--
Sally Jenkins: Or prevention.
Huw David: --or prevention services. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home,'There's no role for children's social services', because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. So, just to be clear about that. And that's a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it's happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it's reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members.
Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there, Huw? Because I'm very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I'm hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services.
Huw David: There's not enough of those services, and, obviously--you may have heard me saying this before--I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they're only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse--we'll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months'time, and that could escalate. And what I'd rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. But those services need additional investment.
Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it's not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child.
Alastair Birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority--and it'll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o'clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, your last question, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services?
Sally Jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. There's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment?
Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. If we were offered additional resource, we are going to take that. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from Jayne Bryant.
Jayne Bryant AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted?
Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. The universal tier 1 training is there, and all local authorities in Wales will implement that. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. That will remain the same. The thresholds for social care, that's their responsibility. That duty to report will always be there. It says in'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm--because that's what we're talking about--they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness--it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals. They have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. So, there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure--and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw--that the services are key for families. Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families. They have those relationships with the families. I know there was discussion around professional trust. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children--they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. So, anything that's preventative. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base--we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. So, that's really my answer.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust?
Alastair Birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust--it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually,'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.'Some of the NFAs--the ones that don't get referred at threshold--it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. So, I don't think--. The trust in the professionals--it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. That's what engenders trust in a professional workforce.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work?
Sally Jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness--I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. So, there are a number of avenues that we could then explore. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent--they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. So far, the Welsh Government says that we don't need to do that in Wales. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that?
Huw David: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make--[Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's why I'm asking.
Huw David: I don't know whether that is necessary--I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. But is it clear who would pay for all of that?
Huw David: I've suddenly changed my mind--[Laughter. ] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers--absolutely. I don't need to check with lawyers or legislators. There we go. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen.
Sally Jenkins: I'm going to echo Huw. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might. Okay, fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that?
Sally Jenkins: I don't think so, no. I think that our children deserve the best legislation.
Hefin David AM: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services--or doesn't?
Sally Jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services--that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that.
Hefin David AM: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness--all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. Is it too much? Is it--?
Sally Jenkins: No. And I agree with that--that there clearly are--but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. What this does is it layers a clarity on that. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect--that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions.
Hefin David AM: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services?
Sally Jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into--. I can think of better ways, but I don't think this is it. No, I mean, I absolutely do not think that. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. Oh that it was so simple.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable?
Sally Jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. So, there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Sian--
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian Gwenllian has got a question on resources.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just to carry on from that, in a way. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title'unidentified costs'--is that good enough?
Sally Jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then they can be added into this.
Huw David: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that,'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then,'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.'We have to get the costs, surely.
Huw David: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. There will be some costs that we will be able to identify. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. Obviously, my view is the more we put into that, the better. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming.
Huw David: And thank you for your questions and engagement. We welcome the opportunity.
Alastair Birch: Thank you very much.
Sally Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government--additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | The first question was about how they should make it clear that the legislation is not trying to criminalize parents, and who should be responsible for this. Sally Jenkins responded that those drivers in relation to that awareness raising should be the key. There were a lot of ways for this including preventative services, universal services and etc. Then they had some discussions on whether the awareness raising should be on the face of the Bill and who should pay for this. Huw David was not sure whether being on the Bill was necessary, but he said it was worth consideration. Welsh Government Ministers should have a duty on this. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion on how to make it clear to parents that the legislation is not trying to criminalize parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children's Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?
Alastair Birch: Bore da--bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always--ADEW will always--advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles--. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is--the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?
Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20,25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring--the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?
Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know--we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?
Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?
Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity--I think that is really important--and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising--because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.
Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see--. [Laughter. ]
Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill--local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?
Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted--a key consultee--but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.
Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything--and that's the discussion that we need to have--that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?
Sally Jenkins: We've done--. A number of local authorities--my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that--
Dawn Bowden AM: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on--we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.
Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity--ambiguity would be bad--in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that--. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?
Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that--. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?
Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life--I'm sure you've heard those views--unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?
Huw David: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view--it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child--that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?
Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments--children's social services in particular--are overstretched. They are at breaking point--make no bones about it--and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.
Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.
Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said,'Is it increased austerity?'That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's something that affects them. And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child. It has become significantly--. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements.
Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools?
Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also--. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked?
Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What, if a child is being smacked now?
Sally Jenkins: Yes. If a child is being smacked now, we would ask that people contact. We have a duty to report, as professionals. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Right.
Sally Jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about--we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. I think we can't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Thank you. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.'It also says,'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child--under the new definition--'so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap--'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.'To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted?
Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families'lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. It's not about us going into families, whatever some of the public perception may be. Our aim is to get in and get out. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. This is not about punitive approaches from social services. So, that's the first element. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. So it's diminishing as it is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will--obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that--is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services--I know in my own authority--in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system.
Sally Jenkins: Two things. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society--we don't want the two to be out of kilter. That would be my first natural response: surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Are there any comments from anyone else?
Huw David: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted--seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis--that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told--and they probably are being told--by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. They don't know the difference. A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is--. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, where's that line.
Huw David: Well, at the moment, we don't know where that line is. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. So, that would be a step forward. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do--and the last thing any of us want to do--is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in--we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer--if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation--if this legislation is passed--then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services'interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions?
Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. So, we get a very, very large number of--. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. It's 10 o'clock, so they're assessing them now, as we speak. And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated?
Sally Jenkins: No. There will be no action. There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness--
Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on?
Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It'll be where the level of harm that's perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they've been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I've had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But if you're struggling now with those assessments--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this?
Sally Jenkins: Yes, absolutely.
Huw David: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it's a multi-agency assessment. So, it's a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked?
Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now, before the legislation?
Sally Jenkins: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover.
Huw David: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example--
Sally Jenkins: Or prevention.
Huw David: --or prevention services. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home,'There's no role for children's social services', because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. So, just to be clear about that. And that's a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it's happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it's reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members.
Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there, Huw? Because I'm very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I'm hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services.
Huw David: There's not enough of those services, and, obviously--you may have heard me saying this before--I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they're only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse--we'll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months'time, and that could escalate. And what I'd rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. But those services need additional investment.
Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it's not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child.
Alastair Birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority--and it'll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o'clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, your last question, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services?
Sally Jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. There's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment?
Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. If we were offered additional resource, we are going to take that. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from Jayne Bryant.
Jayne Bryant AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted?
Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. The universal tier 1 training is there, and all local authorities in Wales will implement that. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. That will remain the same. The thresholds for social care, that's their responsibility. That duty to report will always be there. It says in'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm--because that's what we're talking about--they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness--it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals. They have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. So, there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure--and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw--that the services are key for families. Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families. They have those relationships with the families. I know there was discussion around professional trust. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children--they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. So, anything that's preventative. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base--we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. So, that's really my answer.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust?
Alastair Birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust--it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually,'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.'Some of the NFAs--the ones that don't get referred at threshold--it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. So, I don't think--. The trust in the professionals--it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. That's what engenders trust in a professional workforce.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work?
Sally Jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness--I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. So, there are a number of avenues that we could then explore. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent--they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. So far, the Welsh Government says that we don't need to do that in Wales. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that?
Huw David: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make--[Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's why I'm asking.
Huw David: I don't know whether that is necessary--I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. But is it clear who would pay for all of that?
Huw David: I've suddenly changed my mind--[Laughter. ] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers--absolutely. I don't need to check with lawyers or legislators. There we go. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen.
Sally Jenkins: I'm going to echo Huw. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might. Okay, fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that?
Sally Jenkins: I don't think so, no. I think that our children deserve the best legislation.
Hefin David AM: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services--or doesn't?
Sally Jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services--that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that.
Hefin David AM: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness--all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. Is it too much? Is it--?
Sally Jenkins: No. And I agree with that--that there clearly are--but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. What this does is it layers a clarity on that. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect--that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions.
Hefin David AM: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services?
Sally Jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into--. I can think of better ways, but I don't think this is it. No, I mean, I absolutely do not think that. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. Oh that it was so simple.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable?
Sally Jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. So, there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Sian--
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian Gwenllian has got a question on resources.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just to carry on from that, in a way. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title'unidentified costs'--is that good enough?
Sally Jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then they can be added into this.
Huw David: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that,'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then,'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.'We have to get the costs, surely.
Huw David: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. There will be some costs that we will be able to identify. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. Obviously, my view is the more we put into that, the better. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming.
Huw David: And thank you for your questions and engagement. We welcome the opportunity.
Alastair Birch: Thank you very much.
Sally Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government--additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | Sally Jenkins said that this was very broad. Colleagues in education, in social care, in preventative services, and also Welsh Government and the National Assembly were key to this. There were lots of routes that could go through in terms of raising awareness, including preventative services, universal services and regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. It was about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues would help us to do that in the broadest sense. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children's Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?
Alastair Birch: Bore da--bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always--ADEW will always--advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles--. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is--the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?
Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20,25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring--the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?
Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know--we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?
Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?
Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity--I think that is really important--and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising--because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.
Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see--. [Laughter. ]
Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill--local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?
Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted--a key consultee--but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.
Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything--and that's the discussion that we need to have--that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?
Sally Jenkins: We've done--. A number of local authorities--my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that--
Dawn Bowden AM: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on--we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.
Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity--ambiguity would be bad--in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that--. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?
Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that--. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?
Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life--I'm sure you've heard those views--unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?
Huw David: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view--it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child--that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?
Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments--children's social services in particular--are overstretched. They are at breaking point--make no bones about it--and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.
Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.
Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said,'Is it increased austerity?'That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's something that affects them. And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child. It has become significantly--. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements.
Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools?
Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also--. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked?
Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What, if a child is being smacked now?
Sally Jenkins: Yes. If a child is being smacked now, we would ask that people contact. We have a duty to report, as professionals. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Right.
Sally Jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about--we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. I think we can't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Thank you. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.'It also says,'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child--under the new definition--'so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap--'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.'To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted?
Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families'lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. It's not about us going into families, whatever some of the public perception may be. Our aim is to get in and get out. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. This is not about punitive approaches from social services. So, that's the first element. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. So it's diminishing as it is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will--obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that--is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services--I know in my own authority--in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system.
Sally Jenkins: Two things. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society--we don't want the two to be out of kilter. That would be my first natural response: surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Are there any comments from anyone else?
Huw David: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted--seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis--that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told--and they probably are being told--by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. They don't know the difference. A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is--. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, where's that line.
Huw David: Well, at the moment, we don't know where that line is. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. So, that would be a step forward. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do--and the last thing any of us want to do--is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in--we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer--if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation--if this legislation is passed--then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services'interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions?
Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. So, we get a very, very large number of--. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. It's 10 o'clock, so they're assessing them now, as we speak. And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated?
Sally Jenkins: No. There will be no action. There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness--
Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on?
Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It'll be where the level of harm that's perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they've been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I've had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But if you're struggling now with those assessments--
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family--
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this?
Sally Jenkins: Yes, absolutely.
Huw David: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it's a multi-agency assessment. So, it's a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked?
Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now, before the legislation?
Sally Jenkins: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover.
Huw David: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example--
Sally Jenkins: Or prevention.
Huw David: --or prevention services. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home,'There's no role for children's social services', because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. So, just to be clear about that. And that's a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it's happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it's reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members.
Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there, Huw? Because I'm very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I'm hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services.
Huw David: There's not enough of those services, and, obviously--you may have heard me saying this before--I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they're only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse--we'll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months'time, and that could escalate. And what I'd rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. But those services need additional investment.
Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it's not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child.
Alastair Birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority--and it'll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o'clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, your last question, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services?
Sally Jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. There's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment?
Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. If we were offered additional resource, we are going to take that. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from Jayne Bryant.
Jayne Bryant AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted?
Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. The universal tier 1 training is there, and all local authorities in Wales will implement that. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. That will remain the same. The thresholds for social care, that's their responsibility. That duty to report will always be there. It says in'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm--because that's what we're talking about--they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness--it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals. They have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. So, there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure--and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw--that the services are key for families. Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families. They have those relationships with the families. I know there was discussion around professional trust. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children--they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. So, anything that's preventative. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base--we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. So, that's really my answer.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust?
Alastair Birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust--it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually,'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.'Some of the NFAs--the ones that don't get referred at threshold--it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. So, I don't think--. The trust in the professionals--it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. That's what engenders trust in a professional workforce.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work?
Sally Jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness--I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. So, there are a number of avenues that we could then explore. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent--they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. So far, the Welsh Government says that we don't need to do that in Wales. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that?
Huw David: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make--[Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's why I'm asking.
Huw David: I don't know whether that is necessary--I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. But is it clear who would pay for all of that?
Huw David: I've suddenly changed my mind--[Laughter. ] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers--absolutely. I don't need to check with lawyers or legislators. There we go. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen.
Sally Jenkins: I'm going to echo Huw. [Laughter. ]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might. Okay, fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that?
Sally Jenkins: I don't think so, no. I think that our children deserve the best legislation.
Hefin David AM: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services--or doesn't?
Sally Jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services--that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that.
Hefin David AM: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness--all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. Is it too much? Is it--?
Sally Jenkins: No. And I agree with that--that there clearly are--but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. What this does is it layers a clarity on that. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect--that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions.
Hefin David AM: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services?
Sally Jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into--. I can think of better ways, but I don't think this is it. No, I mean, I absolutely do not think that. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. Oh that it was so simple.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable?
Sally Jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. So, there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Sian--
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian Gwenllian has got a question on resources.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just to carry on from that, in a way. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title'unidentified costs'--is that good enough?
Sally Jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then they can be added into this.
Huw David: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that,'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then,'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.'We have to get the costs, surely.
Huw David: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. There will be some costs that we will be able to identify. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. Obviously, my view is the more we put into that, the better. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming.
Huw David: And thank you for your questions and engagement. We welcome the opportunity.
Alastair Birch: Thank you very much.
Sally Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government--additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | This was a Children, Young People and Education Committee, and it was the sixth scrutiny session on the Children Bill, specifically on Abolition of Defense of Reasonable Punishment. To start this meeting, Alastair Birch shared opinion on why people think the current law was inefficient and unclear, and then Sally Jenkins listed some evidence that physical punishment was actually harmful. Then they had some discussions on how to balance the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, and the importance of simplicity in the Bill. This discussion led to a further discussion on the implementation phase for that nuancing, and its impact on other services. After sharing all of these positive feedbacks in terms of the Bill and its intention, they had some discussions on unintended consequences for this Bill. Then some specific questions on implementation for social services, and its impact on education were proposed and answered. Finally, they had some discussions on the importance of awareness raising. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um almost, there's one more thing I have to get out of the {disfmarker} I have to make sure that this attachment will open.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I keep forgetting whether I've done this. {gap}.
Project Manager: Ah-ha. Okay. We'll open that when the time is right. In the meantime {disfmarker} Closing things down, okay. Let's see what this thing does. Does it come up together or disappear one of them or what? Ah, we came up together, we're good. Okay. Are we ready to start? Okay. It's now quarter of four. This is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five. Okay. Right. Our agenda is, as before, for me to open the meeting, for us to go over the previous minutes, then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um Sarah present the evaluation criteria. We then have a finance aspect, which is a spreadsheet, an Excel spreadsheet. And I know what you're all thinking of, oh my, um because we're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in, including the production evaluation. So we're going to make a very fast track. Okay. Um and as you can see that's what we do next on this thing. So the first thing I have to do is close this so that I can get to {disfmarker} Where is it? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Red.
Project Manager: I need to open mine. Not the agenda.
Marketing: Agenda three.
Project Manager: No that th I want the minutes from the previous {disfmarker} minutes.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: That should be there, minutes. Yeah. Okay. Uh from meeting three, is it alright with you if I don't switch it to show, just use it as is?'Cause this way I can more easily flip it. Okay, um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting, we reviewed the previous minutes before that, um each of you made your presentations. {vocalsound} Um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations. The market trend of fruit and veg, mm spongy, uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy. Um we decided chip on print would be used. Um we would use plastic with a rubber casing, I think was the consensus, powered by kinetic energy. There was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight. Um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that. Um looking like a scroll, but it's really a push button technology, excuse my spelling um that was actually in use, that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to Kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production. Um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management. Um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo, a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us. Um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time. Um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one. And uh we closed as it ran out of time. Is that a fair presentation of what happened?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Okay, back to this meeting. Um we're down to the prototype presentation.
Industrial Designer: Ta-da.
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: Over to you.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: Well.
Project Manager: Ooh, two.
User Interface: Yeah, well you see, each made one, we didn't have enough yellow dough.
Project Manager: Ah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: This is the one that I made.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: It is uh curved, easy to hold, hand-held, nice and small with big easy buttons. This is like a scroll, but they are push buttons and they enter {disfmarker} takes you into the different menus. Of course we need someone who's experienced with the television {gap}. I mean this is the infrared thing that's gonna zap at the television. Uh I'm not quite sure how to make that, but I'm sure it will work. Uh this is on off switch,'cause I think we do need that, and I think it gives it a nice balance.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: And it's gonna have the logo imprinted on it uh in there.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Um as for what it's actually made of {disfmarker} well the function of these buttons is up, down, left and right {vocalsound} in the different menus.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Uh position, I presume that just means right right on it, easy to see. The main feature of it is just a simple design, simple, lack of uh buttons all over the place. Right? {vocalsound} Form curved, kind of smooth, hand-held, makes it feel nice to hold. Uh material, I think Kate's gonna tackle that quite a bit, but I think we have two different options, because we did make a another one, which wa uh is in the shape of banana, it's just {disfmarker} if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons, like just like this but in the shape of a banana,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology, just a slightly different design.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Also with on off switch and infrared {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh I had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic. So like uh {disfmarker} well, I dunno, what's it like? I guess like an existing remote control, but molded and smooth. Whereas otherwise we'd thought, like with this one {disfmarker} or mix and match, just we were gonna see what you thought, the {disfmarker} uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons. So we have the two options we can follow, either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber, depending on cost restraints. And what we well, what conclusion we reach when we discuss it. {vocalsound} Uh material {disfmarker} yeah, that's what I have to say about material. Can I scroll down on there and see what else {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Well colour, I think {disfmarker} I definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons, because that's the company colours, but if anybody's got any other suggestions, I'm quite willing to consider them as well. {vocalsound} So, it just depends what you think about these ideas and if I'm {disfmarker} yeah, maybe, Kate, you better say what you think about them.
Industrial Designer: Um well I don't have very much to add. Um the the case {disfmarker} oops, that's the uh on off button just come off our prototype.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic. We're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two, but it can be either of those. We have the technology to do that. Um and as for the the actual components um, uh Steph just said this is a {disfmarker} quite a cheap device to manufacture. We have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need. Um the um {vocalsound} the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end, it's the stalk of the banana, or it's just the thing at the end of this version. Um so that's for material. Colour, well uh Steph's the expert on colour. Um we we don't have any particular restrictions on that. Yeah, I think that's all we've got to say really.
User Interface: I thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme, I guess this one is obviously fruit shaped.
Industrial Designer: A banana.
User Interface: This one has n banana, yeah. This one has no obvious connections to fruit, but because it's round and molded, it kinda makes you think sort of organic, touchy-feely, kiddie, it's more like {disfmarker} yeah, you'd expect it to be like a child's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one, which I quite like that sort of image.'Cause it's very big and chunky and child-friendly and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Would you care to examine the prototypes, see how they feel in the hand?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Hold them, you see, you know. Curvature, is it to your liking?
Project Manager: Oh I see, the on-off's in the back.
Industrial Designer: Yes, that's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it.
User Interface: {vocalsound} If you don't wanna tire out your thumbs after all.
Project Manager: And then you can use your thumb. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And it was partly we thought the design looked better,
User Interface: Yeah. {gap}
Project Manager: I could see this thing, unless it's reinforced, having a problem with the you know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Breaking,
Project Manager: yeah.
User Interface: oh right. {vocalsound} Well you see, that's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it, because then it'd just be rigid.
Marketing: I like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Yeah, {gap} we really like we really like that design,
Marketing: It's really kind of a {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean it looks just like a logo, that arrangement of the keys. Like a c like a compass point, you know,
Marketing: Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
User Interface: just up, down, left and right, and we think we could make that quite a good feature. And it's like the the iPod scroll wheel, {vocalsound} but better.
Marketing: Yeah. But it's also like texting,
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Marketing: you don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: I mean it {disfmarker} that's what it makes me think of, mobile phones,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I was try I was thinking, moving your thumb like this, what does that remind me of?
Industrial Designer: And it's a very simple design,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: It's texting.
Industrial Designer: there's not a lot to wrong, the components are cheap to make.
Marketing: It's also in terms of um being lost it's it's quite {disfmarker} it looks quite different.
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: You know, I I d I have several {disfmarker} four remotes, and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: you know, this is really identifiable.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of, you know, text box is gonna appear at the bottom of the screen,
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: but we do definitely think that it's a viable option.
Project Manager: Okay. The next item is evaluation.
Marketing: No, okay.
Project Manager: Uh if that's {disfmarker} if you're finished.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, we're finished.
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: shall I take your uh power?
Project Manager: Oh sorry.
Marketing: Oh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Try again.
Marketing: Okay. This is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation, and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department. So, this means we're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise. So I'm going to go and use the whiteboard, and I've made a list of criteria to look at, and so I'm gonna I'm gonna leave this up as the last thing, but for the evaluation it's going to be one is true and seven is false, going over these different criteria, so one true seven false and I'm gonna now use the um the board. Okay. So um fancy, technologically innovative, easy to use, trendy, buttons, excess buttons, good buttons, ugly, sellable, and other. And in fact I hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms, because these are things that um have been brought up, some of them seem rather close,
User Interface: Yeah, what about price, is that gonna go on there as well? Price of materials.
Marketing: like they overlap. Mm, yeah, price.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: We'll put price up at the top.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Not that we actually know anything about it,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but we can we can pretend.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well we will soon, unfortunately.
Marketing: Um Okay, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Come on.
Marketing: Did you say {gap}?
Project Manager: No, {gap}.
Marketing: Uh okay, so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy?
User Interface: It depends what what you mean by fancy really,'cause when I think of fancy, I think of it's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and, you know, like baroque curliness and {disfmarker} which
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I'd call these quite uh minimalist,
Industrial Designer: Yes, a plain, simple, clean design.
User Interface: simple and plain, but I mean I do see what {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} yeah, so in that respect {disfmarker} I think we'll go with that respect.
User Interface: I think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy, I'd say maybe aesthetic.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well we have got s trendy further down,
Project Manager: Elegant.
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Elegant.
Marketing: Elegant.
Industrial Designer: Elegant, I don't know if I'd call them elegant.
Marketing: Yeah, no these aren't the exact terms that the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} like stylish or aesthetic.
Industrial Designer: Stylish, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Elegant. We're gon let's use elegant, although the the the people, the word on the street is is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fancy.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} N that {disfmarker} um
User Interface: Did you just break the pen?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah uh {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} is fancy. So let's let's take it to the next level.
User Interface: Well d we'll just call it fancy then.
Marketing: Well okay, so in terms of elegant, fancy. we'll call it E_F_ um, do we do we think that perhaps {disfmarker} and maybe we should say the yellow? Should we go with the yellow in terms of {disfmarker} I think that's a really superior {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, I think we n we need to {disfmarker}
Marketing: they're both {disfmarker}
User Interface: they're both yellow with black buttons, it's just that we didn't have any more dough to represent uh that,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: So what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: that isn't {disfmarker} that is more curved, like a banana, but that isn't actually recognisable as a banana, you know, with the grooves and the stalk and stuff,
Marketing: As a banana.
User Interface: so.
Marketing: I think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we'll call it the banana.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: And of the two I really like I m I like the banana,
Project Manager: The chunk.
Marketing: but I I do like the chunk.
User Interface: So that's maybe not something we have to decide just right now, is it.
Marketing: No,
User Interface: Just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two.
Marketing: but I mean in terms {disfmarker} we have to evaluate one of them. Unless {disfmarker} do you guys wanna evaluate both?
Project Manager: I think between the two, somewhere between the two is true.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I'd {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's more true than false, about a two.
Marketing: Okay. So we say true. {vocalsound} technologically innovative.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I d I don't think that's what we're aiming at with this concept.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think we're using simple components that are gonna be robust but not particularly innovative.
Marketing: So we'll say {disfmarker} we'll say uh false. Easy to use.
Industrial Designer: Very.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: {vocalsound} One,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: is that inappropriate?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay. Oh, pardon me. Um
Project Manager: Trendy.
User Interface: Oh yes.
Marketing: trendy, s {vocalsound} and I say specifically spongy fruity.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Well, maybe only a two or a three then,'cause it's no we still haven't decided about specific sponginess or specific {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We have the worry about how robust it will be if it's it's curved as a banana but spongy.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, I don't really think that's gonna work,
Industrial Designer: yeah.
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, so two? Um
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Excess buttons.
Marketing: are there excess buttons?
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That is false.
Industrial Designer: So that's false. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {vocalsound} good, well designed buttons, intuitive buttons.
Project Manager: Better, more intuitive buttons, yes.
Marketing: True. Ugly.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: People don't respond well to ugly. Sellable, uh quirky, you know, something people {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think they're different, aren't they?
User Interface: Well it is quite it is quite quirky I think.
Marketing: like oh,
Project Manager: I like it.
Marketing: yeah. Yeah, I do too.
User Interface: It could be quite a good brand, like a good little object.
Marketing: Oh yeah. And I was I was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it's cost saving? With the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh, we also need tho think about the energy. Is it the kinetic energy?
Marketing: Yeah, with the energy.
Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: If it's {disfmarker} it is gonna be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: It is going to be kinetic?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: we'll c we'll say it's a cost saving enviro. Yeah, Uh so yes.
User Interface: Yeah, but we haven't completely developed that side of it yet, so we're not completely sure about that,
Marketing: Well {vocalsound}
User Interface: but yeah.
Marketing: you're still in the Play-Doh stage.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Anything else? Including price, do you have any idea about price or other features?
Industrial Designer: Well I think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop. We haven't got a lot of expensive components in there.
Project Manager: Yes, the instinct says true.
Marketing: Okay. So true one or should I go to two or three?
Industrial Designer: I'd put it at one I think, but {disfmarker} I dunno, what do you {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would say maybe a two,
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface:'cause we still {disfmarker} we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, true,
User Interface: I mean it's not just like {disfmarker} I mean it's not like ev you know, on a normal chunky remote every button res I mean means something different,
Project Manager: Yeah, that's not a cheap thing to get.
Industrial Designer: it might be the {disfmarker} yeah, yeah, true. True.
User Interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all {disfmarker} they mean everything, depending on what menu you're in.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's a good point.
User Interface: {gap} uh we need somebody to develop that.
Marketing: Um other? Anything else you guys can thing of? And I'm gonna actually change a couple of these so then I'm gonna {disfmarker} instead of ugly I'm gonna say it's attractive and then make that true, so that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing:'cause I have to do an average. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right.
Marketing: And then um excess buttons.
User Interface: Just putting no excess buttons.
Marketing: Exactly. Wow we're doing really well. Yeah, be you know,
User Interface: As for {disfmarker}
Marketing: so it doesn't ruin the polarity.
User Interface: see if we're technologically innovative, I'd say it is quite innovative, because there aren't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: I mean I know we're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or L_C_D_. Yeah. Well if you g uh let me know if if any of these {disfmarker} um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here {disfmarker} if you th if you think I should change the innovative or add other features. If not I'll average those.
Project Manager: I think we're good.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Mm.
Project Manager: Okay. We're a little over halfway through the meeting
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and the next big thing is the finance. Okay.
Marketing: Um okay, how about if I uh pass this back to you
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: and I'll uh figure out the average here.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Thank you for everyone's help with that.
Project Manager: Right. And as you can see it says the same thing, it had not lost itself, thank Goodness. And we're going to raise what's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me. Um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hand dynamo, battery, kinetic, solar cells. Okay.
User Interface: Well, just kinetic then, {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Um what's a hand dynamo?
Industrial Designer: That was the crank, wind-up crank on the side. {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's the wind-up.
Project Manager: Oh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: shoot, forget that. Kinetic is um {disfmarker} and how many of those will we need per {disfmarker} we only need one.
Industrial Designer: Just one.
Project Manager: Okay. Electronic simple chip on print, and we'll need one of those.
Industrial Designer: Uh uh yeah, I think we can do it all with simple {disfmarker} Just checking that. Yeah, simple,'cause we've just got push buttons, so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest.
Project Manager: Okay, and we only need one of those.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay, the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve. It looks like it {gap} single curve,'cause of th the chunkiness. It's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that one is single curve,
Project Manager: that's uh uh one.
Industrial Designer: isn't it? Um do we have
Project Manager: And that's
User Interface: What does double curved mean, I don't understand.
Industrial Designer: I I think you {disfmarker} it means you reverse the curve.
Project Manager: uh that's the the one that goes like this.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, I do I don't think we need that for either of them,
User Interface: Oh no, we don't need that. No.
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: you can do a banana in single curve,
Project Manager: No,
User Interface: Single-curved, I'd say.
Project Manager: single curve.
Industrial Designer: yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, case material supplements. Plastic, wood, rubber, titanium, special colour.
User Interface: I
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I just wanna say plastic.
Project Manager: We had the special colour. And did we say plastic?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, can we do some what ifs,'cause it may {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I mean I I still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself,
Marketing: One, two, three, four, five, six.
Industrial Designer: but it depends on the cost, I guess.
Project Manager: Okay. We'll come back, if we can, to the rubber being added at the moment, that's where we are. Interface button {disfmarker} push button interface. That's what we're using,
User Interface: It's just button.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: isn't it?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Do we need to say how many buttons, or
Project Manager: Whoops, don't want that, not yet. Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or d is it just one?
Project Manager: No, it just says push button interface. Button supplements, they'll be in a special colour of black.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Project Manager: And the buttons {disfmarker} Wha what is the buttons made of, rubber?
Industrial Designer: Uh they'll be rubber, yep.
Project Manager: So we need one of them. And are they any special form?
User Interface: Well yeah, like the compass point one.
Industrial Designer: Actually, does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material?'Cause I think they can be plastic.
Project Manager:'Cause the rate we're going we can put the rubber on top.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. They could be plastic, we don't have to have rubber buttons,
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: because we haven't got a double curved case.
User Interface: Yeah, they could be plastic.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Um let's put that rubber in then, of the case material supplement.
Industrial Designer: It's just one, isn't it?
Project Manager: Uh we only need one of them. Um and the total cost has been calculated as nine Pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed.
Industrial Designer: What, we're in.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We're in. {vocalsound} That's us.
Industrial Designer: More profit.
User Interface: Great.
Project Manager: Okay, I'm going to save this into our {vocalsound} desktop, project documents. Okay. As our project document bit.
Industrial Designer: Do you do you need to double click on that to open it?
Project Manager: Yeah. There we are. That's the only Excel document that will be in there, so it's there for all of us. Okay, so, are they under twelve fifty? Yes, go to the project evaluation, next slide.
User Interface: Yes.
Project Manager: Right. Um the project process, satisfaction with, for example, the room for creativity. Yeah, leadership, teamwork,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Sure. Yes.
Project Manager: means, of having whiteboard, the digital pens and all that kind of good things.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And Play-Doh.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, the Play-Doh was best, I thought. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah well,'cause I mean it's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying, well we quite want this, but imagine it rounder. So much better just to go and, you know, this is it, this is what we want. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} So, we went over all those things and we're satisfied with all the above.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Um did we find any new ideas?
Marketing: I think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped I I mean I {disfmarker} that really opened my eyes.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Spongy.
Marketing: I I only speak for myself though.
User Interface: And I'd never heard of the kinetic energy before,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: so. Good work as a design team,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I think we're a good team actually.
User Interface: because we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure all the wires are really great though.
Project Manager: So we actually worked well as a group.
Industrial Designer: I thought so.
Project Manager: Right. Are the costs within the budget? Yes.
User Interface: Oh yes.
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: Is the project evaluated?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yes.
Marketing: I can give you a number,
Industrial Designer: hang on, Oh we haven't heard. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Marketing: um it's uh {disfmarker} the average evaluation score is one point eight eight, so it means w you know, I can I can spell it out. There were six true or ones, four um pardon me, two s almost true or close to true, so that was four points, and then uh one false, seven points, so seventeen divided by nine {disfmarker} we're between one and two. I would say that's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place.
User Interface: Yeah. And the the only false one is because we've chosen to keep a simple old technology,
Marketing: To maintain old technology, exactly.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: which if it works perfectly well I see no point in improving on if it works,
Marketing: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely, and it's kept us within budget.
User Interface: so. Yeah.
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So we do count as I think excellent or one.
Project Manager: Alright.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: And we've therefore {disfmarker} we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary, I have a final report to present, um and then we're done.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: We done good, and we're finished in time.
User Interface: Bring on the ice sculptures.
Marketing: Nice.
Industrial Designer: And then we get the product launch party.
Marketing: So we might have to wait.
Industrial Designer: Product launch party?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's what I said, ice sculptures.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um I {disfmarker} one thing I want to do is {disfmarker} oh, I think the meeting's done.
Project Manager: I believe that is the end of our meeting. Thank you, Melissa. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Um one thing I wa I wanna do is save everything in the right files, because I don't think everything is saved. The right files. Final meeting market | After Project Manager first went over the previous meeting and summarized the meeting agenda, Inudstrial Designer started the prototype presentation of the remote control. The remote control should be curved with scroll and push buttons, made by smooth plastic or spongy rubber. Marketing presented the evaluation criteria of the remote control in terms of the user requirements and the trends. The remote control shall be fancy because it was heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality. Finally, they confirmed the components they planned to use under the restrict of finance. | qmsum |
What was the meeting about?
Professor A: OK.
Grad B: OK we're on and we seem to be working.
PhD C: Yes.
Professor A: OK.
Grad B: We didn't crash {disfmarker} we're not crashing anymore
PhD C: One, two, three, four, f
Grad B: and it really bothers me.
Professor A: Yeah?
PhD C: No crashing.
PhD G: I do. I crashed when I started this morning.
Grad B: You crashed {disfmarker} crashed this morning? I did not crash this morning.
PhD C: Yeah?
Professor A: Oh! Well maybe it's just, you know, how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day.
PhD G: Really? Yeah. Maybe, yeah.
Professor A: First time {disfmarker} first time in the day, you know.
PhD G: Or maybe it's once you've {pause} done enough meetings {comment} it won't crash on you anymore.
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD C: No?
Postdoc F: Yeah.
PhD G: It's a matter of experience.
PhD E: Yeah.
Professor A: Yeah.
Postdoc F: Self - learning, yeah.
Professor A: That's {disfmarker} that's great.
PhD G: Yeah.
Professor A: Uh.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: Do we have an agenda? Liz {disfmarker} Liz and Andreas can't sh can't {disfmarker} uh, can't come.
Grad B: I do.
Professor A: So, they won't be here.
Grad B: I have agenda and it's all me.
PhD G: Did {disfmarker}
Grad B: Cuz no one sent me anything else.
PhD G: Did they send, uh, the messages to you about the meeting today?
Grad B: I have no idea but I just got it a few minutes ago.
PhD G: Oh.
Grad B: Right when you were in my office it arrived.
PhD G: Oh. OK, cuz I checked my mail. I didn't have anything.
Grad B: So, does anyone have any a agenda items other than me? I actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits.
Professor A: Uh, right, so {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I was just gonna talk briefly about the NSF ITR.
PhD C: Mm - hmm. Yeah.
Grad B: Oh, great.
Professor A: Uh, and then, you have {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Can w
Professor A: I mean, I won't say much, but {disfmarker} {comment} uh, but then, uh, you said {disfmarker} wanna talk about digits?
Grad B: I have a short thing about digits and then uh I wanna talk a little bit about naming conventions, although it's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it. So maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who {disfmarker} for whom it's relevant.
Professor A: Right.
PhD C: Yeah.
Postdoc F: I could always say something about transcription. I've been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} uh, well {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well if we {disfmarker} Yeah, we shouldn't add things in just to add things in. I'm actually pretty busy today,
Postdoc F: Yeah.
Professor A: so if we can {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} we {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Professor A: a short meeting would be fine.
Postdoc F: This does sound like we're doing fine, yeah. That won't do.
Grad B: So the only thing I wanna say about digits is, we are pretty much done with the first test set. There are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that weren't really read. So I won't really know until I go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error. So I wa Uh. Two things. The first is what should we do about digits that were misread? My opinion is, um, we should just throw them out completely, and have them read again by someone else. You know, the grouping is completely random,
PhD C: Uh - huh.
Grad B: so it {disfmarker} it's perfectly fine to put a {disfmarker} a group together again of errors and have them re - read, just to finish out the test set.
Postdoc F: Oh! By {disfmarker} throw them out completely?
Grad B: Um, the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said. So those are {disfmarker} those are the two options.
PhD C: Yeah.
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: But there's often things where people do false starts. I know I've done it, where I say {disfmarker} say a {disfmarker}
Grad B: What the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction, and they eventually did read the right string, {comment} you extract the right string.
PhD G: Oh, you're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and didn't correct it?
PhD E: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah. And didn't notice. Which happens in a few places.
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD G: Ah.
PhD C: Yeah.
Grad B: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Well, and s and you're talking string - wise, you're not talking about the entire page?
Grad B: Correct.
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: I get it.
Grad B: And so the {disfmarker} the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said, but then {disfmarker} but then the transcript isn't the Aurora test set anymore. I don't think that really matters because the conditions are so different. And that would be a little easier.
PhD G: Well how many are {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how often does that happen?
Grad B: Mmm, five or six times.
PhD G: Oh, so it's not very much.
Grad B: No, it's not much at all.
PhD G: Seems like we should just change the transcripts
PhD E: Yeah.
Grad B: OK.
PhD G: to match.
Professor A: Yeah, it's five or six times out of {pause} thousands?
PhD C: Yeah.
Grad B: Four thousand.
Professor A: Four thousand?
PhD C: Four thous Ah! Four thousand.
PhD G: Yeah, it's {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah, I would, uh, {vocalsound} tak do the easy way,
PhD G: Yeah.
Professor A: yeah.
Grad B: OK.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's kinda nice {disfmarker} I mean, wh who knows what studies people will be doing on {disfmarker} on speaker - dependent things
PhD C: Mmm.
Professor A: and so I think having {disfmarker} having it all {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: the speakers who we had is {disfmarker} is at least interesting.
PhD G: So you {disfmarker} um, how many digits have been transcribed now?
Grad B: Four thousand lines. And each line is between one and about ten digits.
PhD G: Four thousand lines?
Grad B: I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't compute the average. I think the average was around four or five.
Professor A: So that's a couple hours of {disfmarker} of, uh, speech, probably.
PhD G: Wow.
Grad B: Yep. Yep.
Professor A: Which is a yeah reasonable {disfmarker} reasonable test set.
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
PhD G: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: And, Jane, I do have a set of forms which I think you have copies of somewhere.
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm. Yeah, true.
Grad B: Oh you do? Oh OK, good, good.
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm.
Grad B: Yeah, I was just wond I thought I had {disfmarker} had all of them back from you. And then the other thing is that, uh, the forms in front of us here that we're gonna read later, were suggested by Liz
Postdoc F: No, not yet.
Grad B: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits. And so, uh, I just wanted people to, take a quick look at the instructions
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
PhD E: Eight eight two two two nine.
Grad B: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it.
Professor A: I see. And the decision here, uh, was to continue with uh the words rather than the {disfmarker} the numerics.
Grad B: Uh, yes, although we could switch it back. The problem was O and zero. Although we could switch it back and tell them always to say" zero" or always to say" O" .
Postdoc F: Oh {disfmarker}
Professor A: Or neither.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: But it's just two thing {disfmarker} ways that you can say it.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: Right?
Grad B: Sure.
Postdoc F: Oh.
Professor A: Um {disfmarker} um,
PhD E: Yeah.
Professor A: that's the only thought I have because if you t start talking about these, you know u tr She's trying to get at natural groupings, but it {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's nothing natural about reading numbers this way.
Grad B: Right.
Professor A: I mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see it this way.
Grad B: The {disfmarker} the problem also is she did want to stick with digits. I mean I'm speaking for her since she's not here.
Professor A: Yeah.
Grad B: But, um, the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals, {comment} they might say forty - three instead of four three.
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD G: Mmm.
PhD C: Yeah.
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD C: Yeah.
Postdoc F: Well, if there's space, though, between them. I mean, you can {disfmarker} With {disfmarker} when you space them out they don't look like, uh, forty - three anymore.
PhD E: Yeah.
Grad B: Well, she and I were talking about it,
Professor A: Yeah.
Grad B: and she felt that it's very, very natural to do that sort of chunking.
Professor A: She's right. It's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it's a different problem. I mean it's a {disfmarker} it's a {disfmarker} it's an interesting problem {disfmarker} I mean, we've done stuff with numbers before, and yeah sometimes people {disfmarker} If you say s" three nine eight one" sometimes people will say" thirty - nine eighty - one" or" three hundred {disfmarker} three hundred eighty - nine one" , or {disfmarker} I don't think they'd say that,
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: but {disfmarker} but th
Grad B: Not very frequently
Professor A: no {disfmarker}
Grad B: but, {vocalsound} they certainly could.
Professor A: But {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh, th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they'd do it.
Grad B: So. I mean, this is something that Liz and I spoke about
Professor A: But {disfmarker} I see.
Grad B: and, since this was something that Liz asked for specifically, I think we need to defer to her.
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: OK. Well, we're probably gonna be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wanna do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions,
Grad B: Do something different,
Professor A: but this is the next suggestion,
Grad B: yeah.
Professor A: so. OK. OK, so uh e l I guess, let me, uh, get my {disfmarker} my short thing out about the NSF. I sent this {disfmarker} actually this is maybe a little side thing. Um, I {disfmarker} I sent to what I thought we had, uh, in some previous mail, as the right joint thing to send to, which was" M {disfmarker} MTG RCDR hyphen joint" .
Grad B: It was. Joint. Yep.
Professor A: But then I got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to {disfmarker}
Grad B: It's {disfmarker} That's because they set the one up at UW {disfmarker}
Postdoc F:
Grad B: that's not on our side, that's on the U - dub {comment} side.
Professor A: Oh.
Grad B: And so U - UW set it up as a moderated list.
Postdoc F: Yeah.
Professor A: Oh, OK.
Grad B: And, I have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might just wanna mail to Mari
Professor A: No {disfmarker} no, th I got {disfmarker} I got, uh, little excited notes from Mari and Jeff and so on,
Grad B: and {disfmarker}
Professor A: so it's {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK, good.
Professor A: Yeah.
Grad B: So the moderator actually did repost it.
Professor A: Yeah.
Grad B: Cuz I had sent one earlier {disfmarker} Actually the same thing happened to me {disfmarker} I had sent one earlier. The message says," You'll be informed" and then I was never informed but I got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it, so.
Professor A: Right.
Grad B: It's just to prevent spam.
Professor A: I see. Yeah so O {disfmarker} OK. Well, anyway, I guess {disfmarker} everybody here {disfmarker} Are y are {disfmarker} you are on that list, right? So you got the note?
PhD G: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: Yeah? OK.
PhD G: Yeah.
Professor A: Um, so this was, uh, a, uh, proposal that we put in before on {disfmarker} on more {disfmarker} more higher level, uh, issues in meetings, from {disfmarker} I guess higher level from my point of view. Uh, {vocalsound} and, uh, meeting mappings, and, uh {disfmarker} so is i for {disfmarker} it was a {vocalsound} proposal for the ITR program, uh, Information Technology Research program's part of National Science Foundation. It's the {pause} second year of their doing, uh, these grants. They're {disfmarker} they're {disfmarker} a lot of them are {disfmarker} some of them anyway, are larger {disfmarker} larger grants than the usual, small NSF grants, and. So, they're very competitive, and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals, and we {disfmarker} we, uh, got through that. And so th the {disfmarker} the next phase will be {disfmarker} we'll actually be doing a larger proposal. And I'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hope to be doing very little of it. And {disfmarker} uh, {vocalsound} which was also true for the pre - proposal, so. Uh, there'll be bunch of people working on it. So.
Grad B: When's {disfmarker} when's the full proposal due?
Professor A: Uh, I think April ninth, or something. So it's about a month.
PhD E: p s
Professor A: Um {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yep. And they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms,
PhD G: u
Grad B: is that {disfmarker}
PhD G: Tomorrow.
Professor A: Tomorrow. March second, I said.
PhD E: Tomorrow?
Grad B: I've been a day off all week.
PhD C: Tomorrow.
PhD E: Yeah.
Grad B: I guess that's a good thing cuz that way I got my papers done early.
PhD G: It would be interesting {disfmarker}
Professor A: So that's amazing you showed up at this meeting!
Grad B: It is. It is actually quite amazing.
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD G: It'll be interesting to see the reviewer's comments.
Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. My favorite is was when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when one reviewer says, uh," you know, this should be far more detailed" , and the nex the next reviewer says," you know, there's way too much detail" .
Grad B: Yep. Or" this is way too general" , and the other reviewer says," this is way too specific" .
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: Yeah.
Grad B:" This is way too hard" ," way too easy" .
Professor A: We'll see. Maybe there'll be something useful. And {disfmarker} and, uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well it sounded like they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} the first gate was pretty easy. Is that right? That they didn't reject a lot of the pre - proposals?
Professor A: Do you know anything about the numbers?
Grad B: No. Just {disfmarker} just th
PhD G: It's just from his message it sounded like that.
PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. I said something, yeah.
PhD G: Gary Strong's {disfmarker}
Professor A: I
PhD G: there was a sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD G: I {disfmarker}
Professor A: I should go back and look. I didn't {disfmarker} I don't think that's true.
Grad B: Yeah, OK.
PhD G: Mmm. He said the next phase'll be very, competitive
PhD E: Very {disfmarker} very,
PhD G: because we didn't want to weed out much in the first phase.
PhD E: yeah. Yeah.
Professor A: Well we'll have to see what the numbers are.
Grad B: Or something like that,
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: so.
PhD C: Hmm.
Professor A: Yeah. But they {disfmarker} they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers.
Grad B: Right.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: So, uh, you know, maybe they didn't r weed out as much as usual, but it's {disfmarker} it's usually a pretty {disfmarker} But it {disfmarker} Yeah. It's {disfmarker} it's certainly not {disfmarker} I'm sure that it's not down to one in two or something of what's left.
Grad B: Right.
Professor A: I'm sure it's, you know {disfmarker}
Grad B: How {disfmarker} how many awards are there, do you know?
Professor A: Well there's different numbers of w awards for different size {disfmarker} They have three size grants. This one there's, um {disfmarker} See the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have a fair number of them. Um, and the large ones are, uh, boy, I forget, I think, more than, uh, more than a million and a half, more than two million or something like that. And {disfmarker} and we're in the middle {disfmarker} middle category.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: I think we're, uh, uh, I forget what it was. But, um {disfmarker} Uh, I don't remember, but it's {pause} pr probably along the li I {disfmarker} I could be wrong on this yeah, but probably along the lines of fifteen or {disfmarker} that they'll fund, or twenty. I mean when they {disfmarker} Do you {disfmarker} do you know how many they funded when they f in {disfmarker} in Chuck's, that he got last year?
PhD G: I don't {disfmarker} I don't know.
Professor A: Yeah.
Grad B: I thought it was smaller, that it was like four or five, wasn't it?
Professor A: Well they fund {disfmarker}
PhD G: I {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker}
Professor A: they {disfmarker}
PhD G: I don't remember.
Professor A: yeah. I mean {disfmarker}
Grad B: Uh it doesn't matter, we'll find out one way or another.
Professor A: Yeah. I mean last time I think they just had two categories, small and big,
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: and this time they came up with a middle one, so it'll {disfmarker} there'll be more of them that they fund than {disfmarker} of the big.
PhD G: If we end up getting this, um, what will it mean to ICSI in terms of, w wh where will the money go to, what would we be doing with it?
Professor A: Uh.
Grad B: Exactly what we say in the proposal.
PhD G: I {disfmarker} I mean uh which part is ICSI though.
Professor A: You know, it {disfmarker} i None of it will go for those yachts that we've talking about.
PhD G: I mean {disfmarker} Dang!
Professor A: Um, well, no, I mean it's {disfmarker} u It {disfmarker}
PhD G: It's just for the research {disfmarker} to continue the research on the Meeting Recorder stuff?
Professor A: It's extending the research, right? Because the other {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah.
Grad B: Yeah it's go higher level stuff than we've been talking about for Meeting Recorder.
Professor A: Yeah. Yeah the other things that we have, uh, been working on with, uh, the c with Communicator {disfmarker} uh, especially with the newer things {disfmarker} with the more acoustically - oriented things are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are lower level. And, this is dealing with, uh, mapping on the level of {disfmarker} of, um, the conversation {disfmarker} of mapping the conversations
PhD G: Mm - hmm. Right, right.
Professor A: to different kind of planes. So. Um. But, um. So it's all it's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now, or none of us are funded for, so it's {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} it would be new.
PhD G: So assuming everybody's completely busy now, it means we're gonna hafta, hire more students, or, something?
Professor A: Well there's evenings, and there's weekends, and {disfmarker} Uh. Yeah, there {disfmarker} there would be {disfmarker} there would be new hires, and {disfmarker} and there {disfmarker} there would be expansion, but, also, there's always {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for everybody there's {disfmarker} there's always things that are dropping off, grants that are ending, or other things that are ending, so,
PhD G: Right.
Professor A: there's {disfmarker} there's a {vocalsound} continual need to {disfmarker} to bring in new things.
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
Grad B: Yep.
PhD G: Right.
Professor A: But {disfmarker} but there definitely would be new {disfmarker} new {disfmarker} new, uh, students,
PhD G: I see.
Professor A: and so forth, both at {disfmarker} at UW and here.
Grad B: Are there any students in your class who are {vocalsound} expressing interest?
Professor A: Um, not {pause} clear yet. Not clear yet.
Grad B: Other than the one who's already here.
Professor A: I mean we got {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} yeah, two of them are {disfmarker} two in the c There're {pause} two in the class already here, and then {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and, uh {disfmarker} uh, then there's a third who's doing a project here, who, uh {disfmarker} But he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he won't be in the country that long,
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: and, maybe another will end up.
Grad B: Yep.
Professor A: Actually there is one other guy who's looking {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's that guy, uh, Jeremy? {comment} I think.
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: Anyway, yeah that's {disfmarker} that's all I was gonna say is that {disfmarker} that that's {disfmarker} you know, that's nice and we're sorta preceding to the next step, and, {vocalsound} it'll mean some more work, uh, you know, in {disfmarker} in March in getting the proposal out, and then, it's, uh, you know {disfmarker} We'll see what happens. Uh, the last one was {disfmarker} that you had there, {comment} was about naming?
Grad B: Yep. It just, uh {disfmarker} we've been cutting up sound files, in {disfmarker} for ba both digits and for, uh, doing recognition. And Liz had some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that hasn't really been resolved about naming. So, uh, one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that sorting is easier. Um,
PhD C: Yeah.
Grad B: same number of characters so that when you're sorting filenames you can easily extract out bits and pieces that you want. And that's easy enough to do. And I don't think we have so many meetings that that's a big deal just to change the names. So that means, uh, instead of calling it" MR one" ," MR two" , you'd call it" MRM zero zero one" ," MRM zero zero two" , things like that. Just so that they're {disfmarker} they're all the same length.
Postdoc F: But, you know, when you, do things like that you can always {disfmarker} as long as you have {disfmarker} uh, you can always search from the beginning or the end of the string.
Grad B: The problem is that they're a lot of fields.
Postdoc F: You know, so" zero zero two" {disfmarker}
Grad B: Alright,
Postdoc F: Yeah.
Grad B: so we {disfmarker} we have th we're gonna have the speaker ID, the session, uh {disfmarker} uh, information on the microphones,
Postdoc F: Yeah, well, your example was really {disfmarker}
Grad B: information on the speak on the channels and all that.
PhD C: Uh - huh.
Postdoc F: i
Grad B: And so if each one of those is a fixed length, the sorting becomes a lot easier.
Postdoc F: OK.
Grad D: She wanted to keep them {vocalsound} the same lengths across different meetings also. So like, the NSA meeting lengths, {comment} all filenames are gonna be the same length as the Meeting Recorder meeting names?
Grad B: Yep. And as I said, the it's {disfmarker} we just don't have that many that that's a big deal.
PhD G: Cuz of digits.
Grad B: And so, uh, um, at some point we have to sort of take a few days off, let the transcribers have a few days off, make sure no one's touching the data and reorganize the file structures. And when we do that we can also rationalize some of the naming.
Postdoc F: I {disfmarker} I would think though that the transcribe {disfmarker} the transcripts themselves wouldn't need to have such lengthy names.
Grad B: Right.
Postdoc F: So, I mean, you're dealing with a different domain there, and with start and end times and all that, and channels and stuff,
Grad B: Right. So the only thing that would change with that is just the directory names,
Postdoc F: so, it's a different {pause} set.
Grad B: I would change them to match. So instead of being MR one it would be MRM zero zero one. But I don't think that's a big deal.
Postdoc F: Fine. Fine.
Grad B: So for {disfmarker} for m the meetings we were thinking about three letters and three numbers for meeting I Ds. Uh, for speakers, M or F and then three numbers, For, uh {disfmarker} and, uh, that also brings up the point that we have to start assembling a speaker database so that we get those links back and forth and keep it consistent. Um, and then, uh, the microphone issues. We want some way of specifying, more than looking in the" key" file, what channel and what mike. What channel, what mike, and what broadcaster. Or {disfmarker} I don't know how to s say it. So I mean with this one it's this particular headset with this particular transmitter w {pause} as a wireless.
PhD C: Yeah.
PhD E: Yep.
Grad B: And you know that one is a different headset and different channel. And so we just need some naming conventions on that.
PhD C: Yeah.
Grad B: And, uh,
PhD C: Uh - huh.
Grad B: that's gonna become especially important once we start changing the microphone set - up. We have some new microphones that I'd like to start trying out, um, once I test them. And then we'll {disfmarker} we'll need to specify that somewhere. So I was just gonna do a fixed list of, uh, microphones and types.
PhD C: Yeah.
Grad B: So, as I said {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK.
PhD G: That sounds good.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: Um, {pause} {vocalsound} since we have such a short agenda list I guess I wi I will ask how {disfmarker} how are the transcriptions going? Yeah.
Postdoc F: The {disfmarker} the news is that I've {disfmarker} I uh {disfmarker} s So {disfmarker} in s um {disfmarker} So I've switched to {disfmarker} Start my new sentence. I {disfmarker} I switched to doing the channel - by - channel transcriptions to provide, uh, the {disfmarker} uh, tighter time bins for {disfmarker} partly for use in Thilo's work and also it's of relevance to other people in the project. And, um, I discovered in the process a couple of {disfmarker} of interesting things, which, um, one of them is that, um, it seems that there are time lags involved in doing this, uh, uh, using an interface that has so much more complexity to it. And I {disfmarker} and I wanted to maybe ask, uh, Chuck to help me with some of the questions of efficiency. Maybe {disfmarker} I was thinking maybe the best way to do this in the long run may be to give them single channel parts and then piece them together later. And I {disfmarker} I have a script, I can piece them together. I mean, so it's like, I {disfmarker} I know that I can take them apart and put them together and I'll end up with the representation which is where the real power of that interface is.
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: And it may be that it's faster to transcribe a channel at a time with only one, uh, sound file and one, uh, set of {disfmarker} of, uh, utterances to check through.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: I'm a little confused. I thought that {disfmarker} that one of the reason we thought we were so much faster than {disfmarker} than, uh, the {disfmarker} the other transcription, uh, thing was that {disfmarker} that we were using the mixed {pause} file.
Postdoc F: Oh, yes. OK. But, um, with the mixed, when you have an overlap, you only have a {disfmarker} a choice of one start and end time for that entire overlap, which means that you're not tightly, uh, tuning the individual parts th of that overlap by different speakers.
Professor A: Mm - hmm. Yeah.
Postdoc F: So someone may have only said two words in that entire big chunk of overlap.
Professor A: Yeah.
Postdoc F: And for purposes of {disfmarker} of, uh, things like {disfmarker} well, so things like training the speech - nonspeech segmentation thing.
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: Th - it's necessary to have it more tightly tuned than that.
Professor A: OK.
Postdoc F: And w and w and, you know, is a It would be wonderful if, uh, it's possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but, um, you know, I've {disfmarker} th the {disfmarker} So, I I don't know exactly where that's going at this point. But m I was experimenting with doing this by hand and I really do think that it's wise that we've had them start the way we have with, uh, m y working off the mixed signal, um, having the interface that doesn't require them to do the ti uh, the time bins for every single channel at a t uh, through the entire interaction.
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: Um, I did discover a couple other things by doing this though, and one of them is that, um, um, once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber.
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: As you might expect,
Professor A: Sure.
Postdoc F: because when it's a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap. And if we're gonna study types of overlaps, which is what I wanna do, an analysis of that, then that really does require listening {comment} to every single channel all the way through the entire {comment} length for all the different speakers. Now, for only four speakers, that's not gonna be too much time, but if it's nine speakers, then that i that is more time. So it's li you know, kind of wondering {disfmarker} And I think again it's like this {disfmarker} it's really valuable that Thilo's working on the speech - nonspeech segmentation because maybe, um, we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting.
PhD E: Yeah, but those backchannels will always be a problem I think. Uh especially if they're really short and they're not very loud and so it {disfmarker} it can {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them, so.
Postdoc F: OK. Well so then {disfmarker} then, maybe the answer is to, uh, listen especially densely in places of overlap,
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: just so that they're {disfmarker} they're not being overlooked because of that, and count on accuracy during the sparser phases.
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: Cuz there are large s spaces of the {disfmarker} That's a good point. There are large spaces where there's no overlap at all. Someone's giving a presentation,
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: or whatever. That's {disfmarker} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good thought. And, um, let's see, there was one other thing I was gonna say. I {disfmarker} I think it's really interesting data to work with, I have to say, it's very enjoyable. I really, not {disfmarker} not a problem spending time with these data. Really interesting. And not just because I'm in there. No, it's real interesting.
Professor A: Uh, well I think it's a short meeting. Uh, you're {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you're still in the midst of what you're doing from what you described last time, I assume,
PhD C: Is true.
Postdoc F:
Professor A: and {disfmarker}
PhD C: I haven't results, eh, yet
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: but, eh, I {disfmarker} I'm continue working with the mixed signal now, {comment} after the {disfmarker} the last experience.
Professor A: Yeah. Yeah.
PhD C: And {disfmarker} and I'm tried to {disfmarker} to, uh, adjust the {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to improve, eh, an harmonicity, eh, detector that, eh, I {disfmarker} I implement.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: But I have problem because, eh, I get, eh, eh, very much harmonics now.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: Um, harmonic {disfmarker} possi possible harmonics, uh, eh, and now I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm trying to {disfmarker} to find, eh, some kind of a, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of h of help, eh, using the energy to {disfmarker} to distinguish between possible harmonics, and {disfmarker} and other fre frequency peaks, that, eh, corres not harmonics. And, eh, I have to {disfmarker} to talk with y with you, with the group, eh, about the instantaneous frequency, because I have, eh, an algorithm, and, I get, mmm, eh, t t results {disfmarker} similar results, like, eh, the paper, eh, that I {disfmarker} I am following. But, eh, the {disfmarker} the rules, eh, that, eh, people used in the paper to {disfmarker} to distinguish the harmonics, is {disfmarker} doesn't work well.
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
PhD C: And I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I not sure that i {vocalsound} eh, the {disfmarker} the way {disfmarker} o to {disfmarker} ob the way to obtain the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency is {pause} right, or it's {disfmarker} it's not right. Eh,
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: I haven't enough file feeling to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to distinguish what happened.
Professor A: Yeah, I'd like to talk with you about it. If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if, uh {disfmarker} If I don't have enough time and y you wanna discuss with someone else {disfmarker} some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to, uh, might be Stephane.
PhD C: Yeah. I talked with Stephane and {disfmarker} and Thilo
Professor A: Yeah and {disfmarker} and Thilo, yeah.
PhD C: and,
Professor A: Yeah, but {disfmarker}
PhD C: they {disfmarker} nnn they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {comment} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {vocalsound} didn't {disfmarker}
PhD E: I'm not too experienced with {vocalsound} harmonics
Professor A: I see.
PhD C: they think that {comment} the experience is not enough to {disfmarker}
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
PhD G: Is {disfmarker} is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental, and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental?
PhD C: No, no it's {disfmarker} No {disfmarker} No. No.
PhD G: And then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah, that's wh
PhD C: No. I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't proth process the {disfmarker} the fundamental. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I, ehm {disfmarker} I calculate the {disfmarker} the phase derivate using the FFT.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: And {disfmarker} The algorithm said that, eh, {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} if you change the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the, eh, nnn {disfmarker} the X - the frequency" X" , eh, using the in the instantaneous frequency, you can find, eh, how, eh, in several frequencies that proba probably the {disfmarker} the harmonics, eh,
Professor A: Uh - huh.
PhD C: the errors of peaks {disfmarker} the frequency peaks, eh, eh, move around {pause} these, eh {disfmarker} eh frequency harmonic {disfmarker} the frequency of the harmonic. And, {vocalsound} eh, if you {disfmarker} if you compare the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency, {vocalsound} eh, {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the, eh, continuous, eh, {vocalsound} eh, filters, that, eh {disfmarker} that, eh, they used eh, to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to get, eh, the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency,
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
PhD C: it probably too, you can find, {vocalsound} eh, that the instantaneous frequency {vocalsound} for the continuous, eh, {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} the output of the continuous filters are very near. And in {pause} my case {disfmarker} i in {disfmarker} equal with our signal, {vocalsound} it doesn't happened.
Professor A: Yeah. I'd hafta look at that and think about it.
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
Professor A: It's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} I haven't worked with that either so I'm not sure {disfmarker} The way {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the simple - minded way I suggested was what Chuck was just saying, is that you could make a {disfmarker} a sieve. You know, y you actually say that here is {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: Let's {disfmarker} let's hypothesize that it's this frequency or that frequency, and {disfmarker} and, uh, maybe you {disfmarker} maybe you could use some other cute methods to, uh, short cut it by {disfmarker} by uh, making some guesses,
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh, I would, uh {disfmarker} I mean you could make some guesses from, uh {disfmarker} from the auto - correlation or something but {disfmarker} but then, given those guesses, try, um, uh, only looking at the energy at multiples of the {disfmarker} of that frequency, and {disfmarker} and see how much of the {disfmarker} take the one that's maximum. Call that the {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: But {disfmarker}
PhD C: Using the energy of the {disfmarker} of the multiple of the frequency.
Professor A: Of all the harmonics of that. Yeah.
PhD C: Yeah.
PhD G: Do you hafta do some kind of, uh, low - pass filter before you do that?
PhD C: I don't use.
PhD G: Or {disfmarker}
PhD C: But, I {disfmarker} I know many people use, eh, low - pass filter to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to get, eh, the pitch.
Professor A: No. To get the pitch, yes.
PhD C: I don't use. To get the pitch, yes.
PhD E: To get the pitch, yeah.
PhD C: But the harmonic, no.
PhD G: But i But the harmonics are gonna be, uh, uh, I don't know what the right word is. Um, they're gonna be dampened by the uh, vocal tract, right? The response of the vocal tract.
Professor A: Yeah?
PhD C: Yeah?
PhD G: And so {disfmarker} just looking at the energy on those {disfmarker} at the harmonics, is that gonna {disfmarker}?
Professor A: Well so the thing is that the {disfmarker} This is for, uh, a, um {disfmarker}
PhD G: I m what you'd like to do is get rid of the effect of the vocal tract. Right?
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD G: And just look at the {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} at the signal coming out of the glottis.
Professor A: Yeah. Uh, well, yeah that'd be good.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: But, uh {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but I don't know that you need to {disfmarker}
Grad B: Open wide!
Professor A: but I don't need you {disfmarker} know if you need to get rid of it. I mean that'd {disfmarker} that'd be nice but I don't know if it's ess if it's essential. Um, I mean {disfmarker} cuz I think the main thing is that, uh, you're trying {disfmarker}
PhD G: Uh - huh.
Professor A: wha what are you doing this for? You're trying distinguish between the case where there is, uh {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where there are more than {disfmarker} uh, where there's more than one speaker and the case where there's only one speaker.
Grad B: Sorry.
Professor A: So if there's more than one speaker, um {disfmarker} yeah I guess you could {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} yeah you're {disfmarker} so you're not distinguished between voiced and unvoiced, so {disfmarker} so, i if you don't {disfmarker} if you don't care about that {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: See, if you also wanna {vocalsound} just determine {disfmarker} if you also wanna determine whether it's unvoiced, {vocalsound} then I think you want to {pause} look {disfmarker} look at high frequencies also, because the f the fact that there's more energy in the high frequencies is gonna be an ob sort of obvious cue that it's unvoiced.
PhD G: Yeah.
Professor A: But, i i uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean i i but, um, other than that I guess as far as the one person versus two persons, it would be {pause} primarily a low frequency phenomenon. And if you looked at the low frequencies, yes the higher frequencies are gonna {disfmarker} there's gonna be a spectral slope. The higher frequencies will be lower energy. But so what. I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's {disfmarker} that's w
PhD C: I will prepare for the next week eh, all my results about the harmonicity and {pause} will {disfmarker} will try to come in and to discuss here, because, eh, I haven't enough feeling to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to u {vocalsound} many time to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to understand what happened with the {disfmarker} with, eh, so many peaks, eh, eh, and {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I see the harmonics there many time but, eh, {vocalsound} there are a lot of peaks, eh, that, eh, they are not harmonics.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: Um, I have to discover what {disfmarker} what is the {disfmarker} the w the best way to {disfmarker} to {comment} {disfmarker} to {comment} c to use them
Professor A: Well, but {disfmarker} yeah I don't think you can {disfmarker} I mean you're not gonna be able to look at every frame, so I mean {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean I {disfmarker} I really {disfmarker} I I really thought that the best way to do it, and I'm speaking with no experience on this particular point, but, {vocalsound} my impression was that the best way to do it was however you {disfmarker} You've used instantaneous frequency, whatever. {comment} However you've come up {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} with your candidates, you wanna see how much of the energy is in that
PhD C: Yeah. Yeah.
Professor A: as coppo as opposed to all of the {disfmarker} all {disfmarker} the total energy. And, um, if it's voiced, I guess {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so y I think maybe you do need a voiced - unvoiced determination too. But if it's voiced,
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: um, and the, uh {disfmarker} e the fraction of the energy that's in the harmonic sequence that you're looking at is relatively low, then it should be {disfmarker} then it's more likely to be an overlap.
PhD C: Is height. Yeah. This {disfmarker} this is the idea {disfmarker} the idea I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I had to {disfmarker} to compare the {disfmarker} the ratio of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the energy of the harmonics with the {disfmarker} eh, with the, eh, total energy in the spectrum and try to get a ratio to {disfmarker} to distinguish between overlapping and speech. Mmm.
Professor A: But you're looking a y you're looking at {disfmarker} Let's take a second with this. Uh, uh, you're looking at f at the phase derivative, um, in {disfmarker} in, uh, what domain? I mean this is {disfmarker} this is in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in bands? Or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
PhD C: No, no, no.
Professor A: Just {disfmarker} just overall {disfmarker}
PhD C: It's a {disfmarker} it's a {disfmarker} o i w the band {disfmarker} the band is, eh, from zero to {disfmarker} to four kilohertz. And I {disfmarker} I ot I {disfmarker}
Professor A: And you just take the instantaneous frequency?
PhD C: Yeah. I u m t I {disfmarker} I used two m two method {disfmarker} two methods. Eh, one, eh, based on the F {disfmarker} eh, FTT. to FFT to {disfmarker} to obtain the {disfmarker} or to study the harmonics from {disfmarker} from the spectrum directly,
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: and to study the energy and the multiples of
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: frequency. And another {disfmarker} another algorithm I have is the {disfmarker} in the {pause} instantaneous frequency, based on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on the FFT to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to calculate the {disfmarker} the phase derivate in the time. Eh, uh n the d I mean I {disfmarker} I have two {disfmarker} two algorithms.
Professor A: Right.
PhD C: But, eh, in m {pause} i in my opinion the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency, the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the behavior, eh, was {disfmarker} th it was very interesting. Because I {disfmarker} I saw {vocalsound} eh, how the spectrum {pause} concentrate, eh,
Professor A: Oh!
PhD C: around the {disfmarker} the harmonic. But then when I apply the {disfmarker} the rule, eh, of the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} {pause} the instantaneous frequency of the ne of the continuous filter in the {disfmarker} the near filter, the {disfmarker} the rule that, eh, people propose in the paper doesn't work. And I don't know why.
Professor A: But the instantaneous frequency, wouldn't that give you something more like the central frequency of the {disfmarker} you know, of the {disfmarker} where most of the energy is? I mean, I think if you {disfmarker} Does i does it {disfmarker} Why would it correspond to pitch?
PhD C: Yeah. I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I not sure. I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I try to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: When {vocalsound} first I {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} I calculate, eh, using the FFT,
Postdoc F: Di - digital camera.
PhD C: the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
Grad B: Keep forgetting.
PhD C: I get the {disfmarker} {pause} the spectrum,
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: and I represent all the frequency.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: And {disfmarker} when ou I obtained the instantaneous frequency. And I change {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the @ @, using the instantaneous frequency, here.
Professor A: Oh, so you scale {disfmarker} you s you do a {disfmarker} a scaling along that axis according to instantaneous {disfmarker}
PhD C: I use {disfmarker} Yeah.
Professor A: It's a kinda normalization.
PhD C: Yeah. Yeah. Because when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker}
Professor A: OK.
PhD C: eh, when i I {disfmarker} I use these {disfmarker} these frequency, eh, the range is different, and the resolution is different.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: And I observe more {disfmarker} more or less, thing like this. And the paper said that, eh, these frequencies are probably, eh, harmonics.
Professor A: I see. Huh.
PhD C: But, eh, they used, eh, a rule, eh, based in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} because to {disfmarker} to calculate the instantaneous frequency, they use a Hanning window.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD C: And, they said that, eh, if {pause} these {pause} peak are, eh, harmonics, the f instantaneous frequency, of the contiguous, eh {disfmarker} w eh eh, filters are very near, or have to be very near. But, eh, phh! I don't {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don I I {disfmarker} and I don't know what is the {disfmarker} what is the distance. And I tried to {disfmarker} to put different distance, eh, to put difference, eh {disfmarker} eh, length of the window, eh, different front sieve, Pfff! and I {disfmarker} I not sure what happened.
Professor A: OK, yeah well I {disfmarker} I guess I'm not following it enough. I'll {comment} probably gonna hafta look at the paper, but {disfmarker} which I'm not gonna have time to do in the next few days, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but I'm {disfmarker} I'm curious about it.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: Um, uh, OK.
Postdoc F: I I did i it did occur to me that this is {disfmarker} uh, the return to the transcription, that there's one third thing I wanted to {disfmarker} to ex raise as a to as an issue which is, um, how to handle breaths. So, I wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are. And the reason I ask the question is, um, aside from the fact that they're obviously very time - consuming to encode, uh, the fact that there was some {disfmarker} I had the indication from Dan Ellis in the email that I sent to you,
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: and you know about, that in principle we might be able to, um, handle breaths by accessi by using cross - talk from the other things, be able that {disfmarker} in principle, maybe we could get rid of them, so maybe {disfmarker} And I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know, I mean we had this an and I didn't {disfmarker} couldn't get back to you,
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: but the question of whether it'd be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal, which would be the ideal situation,
Professor A: I don't know {disfmarker} think it'd be ideal.
Postdoc F: cuz {disfmarker}
PhD G: Uh - uh.
Professor A: We - See, we're {disfmarker} we're dealing with real speech and we're trying to have it be as real as possible
PhD E: Yeah.
Professor A: and breaths are part of real speech.
Postdoc F: Well, except that these are really truly {disfmarker} I mean, ther there's a segment in o the one I did {disfmarker} n the first one that I did for {disfmarker} i for this,
PhD E: Yeah.
Postdoc F: where truly w we're hearing you breathing like {disfmarker} as if we're {disfmarker} you're in our ear, you know, and it's like {disfmarker} it's like {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah.
Postdoc F: I y i I mean, breath is natural, but not
Professor A: It is {disfmarker} but it is if you record it.
PhD C: Yeah.
Postdoc F: Except that we're {disfmarker} we're trying to mimic {disfmarker} Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying that the PDA application would have {disfmarker} uh, have to cope with breath.
Professor A: Yeah.
Grad B: Well
PhD E: No.
Postdoc F: But {disfmarker}
PhD G: An - any application may have to.
Grad B: The P D A might not have to,
PhD E: No {disfmarker} i
Grad B: but more people than just PDA users are interested in this corpus.
PhD E: Yeah.
Grad B: So {disfmarker} so mean you're right
Postdoc F: OK, then the {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} I have two questions.
Grad B: we could remove it,
Postdoc F: Yeah?
Grad B: but I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} we don't wanna w remove it from the corpus, {pause} in terms of delivering it because the {disfmarker} people will want it in there.
Professor A: Yeah. If it gets {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK, so maybe the question is notating it. Yeah?
Professor A: Yeah {disfmarker} i Right. If {disfmarker} if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might wanna have some method which will allow you to block it, but you {disfmarker} it's real data. You don't wanna b but you don't {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK, well {disfmarker}
Professor A: If s you know, if there's a little bit of noise out there, and somebody is {disfmarker} is talking about something they're doing, that's part of what we accept as part of a real meeting, even {disfmarker} And we have the f uh {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the fan and the {disfmarker} in the projector up there, and, uh, this is {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} this is actual stuff that we {disfmarker} we wanna work with.
Postdoc F: Well this is in very interesting
Professor A: So.
Postdoc F: because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between, uh, speech recognition research and discourse research because in {disfmarker} in discourse and linguistic research, what counts is what's communit communicative.
PhD G: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: And {disfmarker} breath, you know, everyone breathes, they breathe all the time. And once in a while breath is communicative, but r very rarely. OK, so now, I had a discussion with Chuck about the data structure
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: and the idea is that the transcripts will {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} get stored as a master there'll be a master transcript which has in it everything that's needed for both of these uses.
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: And the one that's used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts. You know, like, Don's been writing scripts
Professor A: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: and {disfmarker} and, uh, to process it for the speech recognition side. Discourse side will {vocalsound} have this {disfmarker} this side over he the {disfmarker} we we'll have a s ch Sorry, not being very fluent here. But, um, this {disfmarker} the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non - communicative. OK. So then the {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} let's {disfmarker} let's think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths. So what I would {disfmarker} r r what I would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically? Could we get a breath detector?
Grad B: Oh, just to save the transcribers time.
Postdoc F: Well, I mean, you just have no idea. I mean, if you're getting a breath several times every minute,
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate, to put the boundaries in, to {disfmarker} to type it in, i it's just a huge amount of time.
Grad B: Mm - hmm.
PhD E: Oops.
Professor A: Wh - what {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah.
Postdoc F: And you wanna be sure it's used, and you wanna be sure it's done as efficiently as possible, and if it can be done automatically, that would be ideal.
Professor A: what if you put it in but didn't put the boundaries?
Postdoc F: Well, but {disfmarker}
Professor A: So you just know it's between these other things,
Postdoc F: Well, OK. So now there's {disfmarker} there's another {disfmarker} another possibility
Professor A: right?
Postdoc F: which is, um, the time boundaries could mark off words {comment} from nonwords. And that would be extremely time - effective, if that's sufficient.
Professor A: Yeah I mean I'm think if it's too {disfmarker} if it's too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se, {vocalsound} we are gonna be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self - aligning, so if {disfmarker} so, {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a" breath" or a" breath - in" or" breath - out" , {vocalsound} the models will learn that sort of thing. Uh, so {disfmarker} but you {disfmarker} but you do want them to point them at some region where {disfmarker} where the breaths really are. So {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK. But that would maybe include a pause as well,
PhD G: Well, there's a there's {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: and that wouldn't be a problem to have it, uh, pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze?
Professor A: Yeah, i You know there is {disfmarker} there's this dynamic tension between {disfmarker} between marking absolutely everything, as you know, and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods. Basically the more we can mark the better. But if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area, and this might be one like this {disfmarker} Although I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'd be interested to h get {disfmarker} get input from Liz and Andreas on this to see if they {disfmarker} Cuz they've - they've got lots of experience with the breaths in {disfmarker} in, uh, uh, their transcripts.
Grad B: They have lots of experience with breathing?
PhD G: I {disfmarker}
Professor A: Actually {disfmarker} Well, {vocalsound} yes they do, but we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can handle that without them here. But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but, uh, you were gonna say something about {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I think, um, one possible way that we could handle it is that, um, you know, as the transcribers are going through, and if they get a hunk of speech that they're gonna transcribe, u th they're gonna transcribe it because there's words in there or whatnot. If there's a breath in there, they could transcribe that.
PhD E: Yeah. Yeah.
Postdoc F: That's what they've been doing. So, within an overlap segment, they {disfmarker} they do this.
PhD G: Right. But {disfmarker} Right. But if there's a big hunk of speech, let's say on Morgan's mike where he's not talking at all, um, don't {disfmarker} don't worry about that.
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD G: So what we're saying is, there's no guarantee that, um {disfmarker} So for the chunks that are transcribed, everything's transcribed. But outside of those boundaries, there could have been stuff that wasn't transcribed. So you just {disfmarker} somebody can't rely on that data and say" that's perfectly clean data" . Uh {disfmarker} do you see what I'm saying?
Postdoc F: Yeah, you're saying it's {disfmarker} uncharted territory.
PhD G: So I would say don't tell them to transcribe anything that's outside of a grouping of words.
Professor A: That sounds like a reasonable {disfmarker} reasonable compromise.
PhD E: Yeah, and that's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that quite co corresponds to the way I {disfmarker} I try to train the speech - nonspeech detector, as I really try to {disfmarker} not to detect those breaths which are not within a speech chunk but with {disfmarker} which are just in {disfmarker} in a silence region.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD E: And they {disfmarker} so they hopefully won't be marked in {disfmarker} in those channel - specific files.
Professor A: u I {disfmarker} I wanted to comment a little more just for clarification about this business about the different purposes.
PhD E: But {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah, so {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm.
Professor A: See, in a {disfmarker} in a way this is a really key point, that for speech recognition, uh, research, uh, um, e a {disfmarker} it's not just a minor part. In fact, the {disfmarker} I think I would say the core thing that we're trying to do is to recognize the actual, meaningful components in the midst of other things that are not meaningful. So it's critical {disfmarker} it's not just incidental it's critical for us to get these other components that are not meaningful. Because that's what we're trying to pull the other out of. That's our problem. If we had nothing {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Yeah.
Professor A: if we had only linguistically - relevant things {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we only had changes in the spectrum that were associated with words, with different spectral components, and, uh, we {disfmarker} we didn't have noise, we didn't have convolutional errors, we didn't have extraneous, uh, behaviors, and so forth, and {vocalsound} moving your head and all these sorts of things, then, actually speech recognition i i isn't that bad right now. I mean you can you know it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it's {disfmarker} the technology's come along pretty well.
PhD C: Yeah.
Professor A: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the reason we still complain about it is because is {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when you have more realistic conditions then {disfmarker} then things fall apart.
Postdoc F: OK, fair enough. I guess, um, I {disfmarker} uh, what I was wondering is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} at what level does the breathing aspect enter into the problem? Because if it were likely that a PDA would be able to be built which would get rid of the breathing, so it wouldn't even have to be processed at thi at this computational le well, let me see, it'd have to be computationally processed to get rid of it, but if there were, uh, like likely on the frontier, a good breath extractor then, um, and then you'd have to {disfmarker}
Professor A: But that's a research question, you know? And so {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Yeah, well, see and that's what I wouldn't know.
Professor A: that {disfmarker} And we don't either. I mean so {disfmarker} so the thing is it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} right now it's just raw d it's just data that we're collecting, and so {vocalsound} we don't wanna presuppose that people will be able to get rid of particular degradations because that's actually the research that we're trying to feed. So, you know, an and maybe {disfmarker} maybe in five years it'll work really well,
Postdoc F: OK.
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and it'll only mess - up ten percent of the time, but then we would still want to account for that ten percent, so.
Postdoc F: I guess there's another aspect which is that as we've improved our microphone technique, we have a lot less breath in the {disfmarker} in the more recent, uh, recordings, so it's {disfmarker} in a way it's an artifact that there's so much on the {disfmarker} on the earlier ones.
Professor A: Uh - huh. I see.
PhD G: One of the {disfmarker} um, just to add to this {disfmarker} one of the ways that we will be able to get rid of breath is by having models for them. I mean, that's what a lot of people do nowadays.
Professor A: Right.
Grad B: Right.
PhD C: Yeah.
PhD G: And so in order to build the model you need to have some amount of it marked, so that you know where the boundaries are.
PhD C: Hmm.
Professor A: Yeah.
PhD G: So {disfmarker} I mean, I don't think we need to worry a lot about breaths that are happening outside of a, you know, conversation. We don't have to go and search for them to {disfmarker} to mark them at all, but, I mean, if they're there while they're transcribing some hunk of words, I'd say put them in if possible.
Postdoc F: OK, and it's also the fact that they differ a lot from one channel to the other because of the way the microphone's adjusted.
PhD C: Yeah.
PhD G: Mm - hmm.
Postdoc F: OK.
Professor A: Should we do the digits?
Grad B: Yep. OK.
PhD C: OK.
Grad D: Mmm. Alright. | The group talked about the status of the first test set of digits data, naming conventions for files, speaker identification tags, and encoding files with details about the recording. The group also discussed a proposal for a grant from the NSF's ITR (Information Technology Research) program, transcriptions, and efforts by speaker mn005 to detect speaker overlap using harmonicity-related features. Particular focus was paid to questions about transcription procedures, i. e. how to deal with overlooked backchannels, and audible breaths. | qmsum |
Summarize the group discussion about finance and budget control.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Hello. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good afternoon. Sorry I'm a little late.
Project Manager: No problem.
Marketing: Got stuck in the traffic.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's possible on uh this time of day. Starts at three o'clock. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the, not only the product, but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And this uh design, detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design, the usability interface design, and we will do the product evaluation. Um, in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria. {vocalsound} Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money, and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation, and the closing after that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the {disfmarker} this is prototype presentation. So, if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button, uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to {disfmarker} one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um, {vocalsound} is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality?
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Sure uh just pop in at any time.
Marketing: Um, when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page.
User Interface: Uh, that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh {disfmarker} So um {disfmarker} You put it uh {disfmarker} you um came in uh page uh one hundred. Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And you {disfmarker} But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel. S so uh the shifting uh button. Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext, and shifting uh down. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Okay. Um {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple. Uh just a few buttons and large buttons.
User Interface: Oh yeah?
Project Manager: But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons. So I'm wondering if we if we neely {disfmarker} really need all of those buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think if you look at most controls, they've got more buttons than this.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And well the on-off button, it's it's a necessity.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You can't drop that one. The volume and channel buttons, you need you obviously need those those.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice. So we could cancel that one. I think the help button really is necessary
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh, or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Long time. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If you put {disfmarker}
User Interface: But m Yeah. We disc discuss that already. But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option. So uh they just put in uh put {vocalsound} press uh the button and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} you can't leave out the number buttons I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary.
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So it's rather basic already.
Marketing: Yeah. Think so. That's what I pointed out earlier. If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here.
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just n normal plain buttons.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah,
Industrial Designer: It's rather hard to draw on the white-board.
User Interface: it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But they're supposed to be equal sized, round, with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume, the the triangle and stuff.
Project Manager: Yeah.'Kay.
User Interface: Yeah yeah. Just to recognise it, so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just for recognition.
User Interface: Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um {disfmarker} Y uh
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also,
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it. Uh so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons. With a a different colour than the case.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: So they jump out.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh that's about it.
Project Manager: That's nice. Then because we only have thirty minutes left, I will move on to the finance part, which is pretty exciting, to see if it's all possible what we wanna do. And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If we see {disfmarker} I don't know if I've filled in correctly, so just correct me if you see uh something wrong. I counted two batteries. But maybe we can also use one. I don't know if it's possible.
Marketing: Since it rechargeable.
Project Manager: It's rechargeable. That's right.
User Interface: Yeah we can u just uh {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. That's two Euros off. {vocalsound}
User Interface:'Kay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We need the advanced chip. So there's not much to uh {vocalsound} to save there.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Here we have the single curves. Uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro. Um,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: I don't know, but I think the single curved is good for design, and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we have to keep that.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Then we have the case material supplements. It's plastic. It's the cheapest one we need. So that's uh not much to save either. But then the biggest costs are the buttons. So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Because you have to {disfmarker} we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end. Um,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so if we {disfmarker} Let's fir first count the buttons we have now.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Sixteen, I believe so.
Project Manager: Because I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Sixteen. Nah, that will be even more then. Eighteen Euros. So,
User Interface: Uh seventeen. Uh with the help button.
Project Manager: seventeen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, including the help?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Damn.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh seventeen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long, or pressing down a a number long.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: That saves us uh one Euro already.'Cause then we have got fifteen I think?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Wouldn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen buttons.
Marketing: Yeah. No. That wouldn't be an option.
Project Manager: And this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each, right?
Project Manager: No those are one, I think.
User Interface: Yeah. Where did uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well, think actually there're two buttons,
User Interface: Uh, it's just one button.
Marketing: aren't they?
User Interface: But, um {disfmarker} Yeah. There were uh two uh for one big button. But they are uh more expensive than the small ones. Uh, yeah. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but th it's not stated in this files.
User Interface: It's just a {gap}.
Project Manager: So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one, by pressing
Marketing: Well I was thinking, maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button.
Project Manager: That's possibility as well.
Marketing: That would cut the cost.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} And it's good for the design as well. So you can make {disfmarker} Uh let's see. If you make this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Looks a bit like uh a cross. {vocalsound} Plus. Min.
User Interface: But I don't don't know if if it's cheaper.
Project Manager: Uh s yeah channel.
User Interface: So uh,
Project Manager: Yeah w
User Interface: we've still got four buttons, but just um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah th I think they count uh the materials.
User Interface: You got uh not not a butt button itself, but uh on the um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah on the chip there. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That's right. That's right.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I think because we have the advanced chip
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we can just count this as one button.
User Interface: Yeah, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But, I think this really is four buttons anyhow.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} No but I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Maybe it is, but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros. Also the L_C_ display, I think it's, I think it's too expensive for the display we use.
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh that's that's a big cost.
Project Manager: I think they uh try t
Industrial Designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip.
Project Manager: That's right, but what's the big advantage of our remote then? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Only the docking station, I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Which isn't the {disfmarker} the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: So it's not even taken into the price.
Project Manager: That's extra. {vocalsound} That's extra. That's right.
Marketing: Maybe we should to a different supplier.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's an option.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Poland. Something. {vocalsound} Polish supplier. Don't you think we can, if we can count this as v as one button, and integrate th uh these buttons in three, then we save a lot of money as well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We we could save money on it. But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's a point.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So um {disfmarker} Yeah. We m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or {disfmarker} Can't uh go um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Well, since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier, more easy, maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little. Especially since we have those nice features.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros. We don't have any more budget to develop it.
User Interface: Is it impossible to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The margin will get too small. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty.
Project Manager: It is. If you leave out the L_C_ display. And if you use less buttons. Say {disfmarker} Or you can take the single chip.
User Interface: I don't think so.
Marketing: It would be a be a pretty rigid one.
User Interface: S Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But, you can't use uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ten.
Project Manager: There it is. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But then w Good looking.
User Interface: Uh, wi with n Oh, with uh attractive uh o options.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: So uh, you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's uh difficult as well,
Marketing: Or b
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost, or just any other remote control.
Industrial Designer: No remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers. Then w
User Interface: Scroll-wheel's one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because then we save ten buttons.
User Interface: No, it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then we have five and one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And and see. If we have this one and we've got the advanced {disfmarker} W uh, we're getting close. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're getting closer.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: But how does scroll-wheel work here?
Project Manager: Then you will {disfmarker} Or maybe you can um scroll. If you scroll you will see the numbers on the L_C_D_ display. Until you've got the right number, then you push it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also. Integrated scroll-wheel push-button.
Project Manager: Alright. It's gotta scroll and push.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You could just not scroll for a half a second.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second, then it g turns to that channel.
Industrial Designer: So you won't need a button.
Marketing: I think that would be like the end of our usability.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But it would definitely crop cost, a lot.
User Interface: D yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we need the battery. {vocalsound} And the regular chip is not possible? It has to be advanced?
Industrial Designer: If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip, yes.
Project Manager: It has to be advanced. Yeah. Okay.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And we can save a Euro by a flat design. That's an option we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ja ja.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Then we're almost there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you v could just leave out one more button.
Project Manager: Yeah. So if we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah but I think that's {disfmarker} That is a big advantage,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a big advantage.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can we use {disfmarker} can't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button?
User Interface: Uh, yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think so. Yeah.
Project Manager: If you push it three times?
Marketing: Well, think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: right now you just push the teletext button, go to page eight eight eight,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and teletext disappears. But the subtitles stay there.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} But if you push the teletext button twice {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight? Eight hundred eighty eight. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that's the case on most {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker} One m uh one b uh, a few buttons.
Project Manager: Ah that's not really that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well, that could be just uh like the scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people,
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Holding a remote with {vocalsound} which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: With only five buttons on it. And a scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide, you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel. If you just make it real simple. Because it saves it saves a lot of money. And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen, which can provide extra information. How to use the scroll wheel. How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles.
Marketing: True. True.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And it's good for the innovative design as well. If you would erase these. Mm eraser? And we put uh {disfmarker} Looks a bit odd maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a pretty big scroll wheel.
Project Manager: That is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Something like that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then, yeah. We've got the scroll-wheel. One, two, three, four, five buttons, if we erase this one. And these are two buttons then.
Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that. And just um {disfmarker} If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's really a good good idea, I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.
Industrial Designer: More obvious.
Project Manager: So we make one for the volume, one for the channel. Plus scroll. That's right.
Industrial Designer: So if we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we've got one, two, three. Yeah, we can leave the teletext in if we want. That's m that's better.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So this is five buttons.
Industrial Designer: If we leave out all those buttons, perhaps you can go with the flat flat case. And make it smaller overall.
Project Manager: Y yeah.
Industrial Designer: So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button, the screen right behi under that, than the scroll button
Project Manager: Mm yeah. Uh yeah, and then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you get a a much smaller remote.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Uh yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it sh
Project Manager: So we can decrease this one to four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah?
Marketing: Right now we have five.
User Interface: But uh, you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's no problem.
User Interface: Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made, I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: And cases come right out of the machine.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine, than a flat one. I think this is a really easy one. Um, what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design? Freek, what do you think?
Marketing: Well, I still think we should go for the single curve design.
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But then again, {gap} all these changes are not really okay with me.
Industrial Designer: Richard's argument was very good. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: But since we just have to.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We have to cut costs. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah I'm ag
Marketing: I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend {vocalsound} eighteen dollars a a remote.
Project Manager: Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.
Marketing: Or do some market research and see what the options are.
Project Manager: Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So people will use it more, and especially for the help functions,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar, scroll button. It will be necessary to have good help function, as well. So this is scroll. I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier. {vocalsound} Before we went on to the to the whole design.
Marketing: Yes. Definitely. {vocalsound}
User Interface: The th
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} I'm glad we could make a bit.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: It's pretty different, if you saw the last one than {vocalsound} this one.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's pretty different.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell.
Project Manager: Yeah. It will. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff. This is not familiar for them.
Project Manager: No, but I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them.
Project Manager: I think the most {disfmarker}
User Interface: But they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios. Uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels.
Project Manager: That's right.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We can let l
User Interface: So maybe it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We can stick it out, a bit. Like a old old buttons. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Maybe that's recognisable for them as well. Yeah. That's a good one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So, I'm afraid we have to move on. And it's uh it's b uh less frightening, I think. If they see this design they think oh, there are only five buttons, and uh {disfmarker} But we will see.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: That's true. Might uh {disfmarker} might be confusing too.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's definitely right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: They'd be like, what? Only five buttons?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: But very special, so uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would buy it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But you're not sixty. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's right. I would buy it if I was six. {vocalsound} No I don't know. What it costs under twelve and a half Euros? No? Uh, yes they are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No. But we can go on with the project evaluation.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Let's see. I can sit down I think. We still have fifteen minutes left, so we're nice on schedule.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um, the project process.
Marketing: So um, I like set up all these criteria. And evaluation of the thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Evaluation criteria. That's right. That was the the point I forgot. I should {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There we are. Evaluation criteria. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thank you. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Go ahead.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got five minutes I think for those criteria.
Marketing: Five more minutes?
Project Manager: No we've got fifteen minutes but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Uh yes. What?
Marketing:'Kay so I did some literature study study, and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier.
Project Manager: Uh yeah.
Marketing: Translated it into criteria, which would be these. Um, is the remote fancy? The shape, look and feel. Innovative? What new functions are there? Uh, easy to use? Uh, learnability is a very important factor here. Uh, is it functional? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions? And are the those functions that are there, are they useful? And the cost. The target group. Is the remote really for the group we're making it for? And recognability. If our company is {disfmarker} If it is easily recognisable that our company made it? And {disfmarker} So we're supposed to evaluate it right now.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Let's see. Oh I have to say this was a little hard, because the minutes of our last meeting were not here.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's because my pen failed to upload his data.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I tried to
Marketing: Interesting.
Project Manager: but it's uh it's giving errors by downloading the software.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.'Kay.
Marketing: Is the design fancy, on a scale of one to seven?
Project Manager: I think it's fancy.
Industrial Designer: Six.
Project Manager: Yeah. Six.
User Interface: Uh six. Yeah.
Marketing: We all go for six? Good. Um, is the design innovative?
Project Manager: Very. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. Sh
Marketing: I think so, with our L_C_D_ screen, docking station, scroll-buttons.
Project Manager: Subtitles, buttons. Yeah. Seven.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Seven?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we've got twenty cents for our docking station, huh? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should be do-able.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right.
Marketing: Is the design easy to use?
User Interface: Mm. Not really.
Project Manager: That's a bit dodgy.
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} Would be for us. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: For old people I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would say four. Four or five between. Between four or five.
User Interface: W
Industrial Designer: Four or five. Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. Four.
Marketing: I'd go for four, too.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Is it functional?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is the design functional? Um, do we have all functions that we want to include?
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: N Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think we do. Do we have too many functions?
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: I don't think so. It's pretty slim.
Project Manager: Think it's uh seven.
Marketing: Seven. Oh, and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control? Like it getting lost and {disfmarker} R_S_I_ influences?
User Interface: Mm m
Industrial Designer: Mm, we haven't thought of that one.
Project Manager: It was.
Marketing: Think we do.
Project Manager: I had them worked out. Mm. They are ugly, not very functional, and getting lost.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well they are now.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Does the design fit the group of focus?
User Interface: Mm, th yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think that's a three.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No I think with our new radio button, I think it's uh I think it's better.
Marketing: I think it doesn't.
User Interface: Yeah. Uh {disfmarker} We have to test it s But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I still {disfmarker} I think it's too m too fancy. Too too flashy.
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control.
User Interface: Uh, yeah, true.
Project Manager: Yeah. I would give it a four.
Marketing: I'm not sure. I think I'd go for two.
User Interface: I go for three. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have to do the three. It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay. Is the company company recognisable?
Project Manager: Yes it is.
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Well, we have the logo there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And they wanna put fashion in their products. Uh in the slogan of the company. And we have the removable front cases. So, I think it's very recognisable.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: So that will be this. I was also supposed to calculate the score, but thought we would have another private thingy after this.
Project Manager: We've got a calculate it. Mm?
Industrial Designer: Twendag sieven an twendag.
Marketing: Is this {disfmarker} Like after this, are we done? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: N We've gonna {disfmarker} We're going to evaluate it.
Marketing: We're gonna go to our other room again. Well, anyhow. These are seven factors times seven is forty something. Two? No.
Project Manager: {gap} Forty nine.
Marketing: Nine? Uh, minus one. Minus three, minus four. {vocalsound} Minus four. So that would be minus eight. Forty one out of forty nine.
Project Manager: Forty one. That's {disfmarker} Around eighty percent.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: What is it?
Marketing: Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here.
Project Manager: That's eighty four percent. I think that's a pretty nice score.
User Interface: Hmm. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Hmm.'Kay. So that will be the evaluation.
Project Manager: Thank you. So, that brings us to the project evaluation. Yep. Thank you.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Project process. Did we move through the right phases, you think? {vocalsound} Along the process?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. But it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier. In the design phase.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's right. So lack of information about prices.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah. Definitely.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh {disfmarker} Okay. Satisfaction. Was there room for creativity?
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not too much. {vocalsound} No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's because of the finance sheet. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, there w there was enough room, but the finance uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, true. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The room was {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And I would've liked to go for the younger users also.
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Restrictions. Internet access.'Kay. Leadership. Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions? Yeah?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Teamwork? Did it work out? Working together? Also, you {disfmarker} two of you with the uh last phase?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, was okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Nice.
Industrial Designer: The tasks are very structured, so you can just do step by step and it's very easy.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} tasks. Okay. Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do? Or were they too much?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well, the smart-board, the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass, but {disfmarker} The digital the digital pen is very nice.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Smart-board.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If it wants to download its uh data. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. Yeah.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Failed download. Smart-board was irritating. {vocalsound} So you rather wanted to have a flip-over? Or something else?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: A flip-over or a more precise uh digit
User Interface: A flipper's uh easier, so {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Faster as well, I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah. Flip-over.
User Interface: But if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation, it's easier to uh share it with uh other people. Uh so uh
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet, or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory.
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I tried to open the file on my laptop,
User Interface: Yeah? No?
Industrial Designer: No. Didn't work.
Marketing: but {vocalsound} not possible.
Project Manager: Uh you need a smart board uh application I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But I think you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: T can uh can you export it uh like a {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Should be possible. Yeah you can export it as image.
Marketing: {gap} no.
Project Manager: Must {disfmarker} Yeah must be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should've done that then.
Project Manager: So the sharing of the information was uh was okay?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Pen is here.
Project Manager: Uh, network.
User Interface: Uh {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, pen is here on the table.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, yeah. So you can {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. {gap} It's possible.
User Interface: It's possible.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: That's nice. Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings? Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh {disfmarker} Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer. Uh, so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker} Yeah. So everybody puts his own score.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And then {vocalsound} it mediates the score,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and you can get one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's better. So that's uh {disfmarker} How do we call? Evaluation criteria. Okay. Mm, any more ideas? Or questions about the project? Or about the product?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Because I think then that we get to our last sheet. Are the costs within the budget?
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: They are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Considering we are not going to make a docking station.
Project Manager: Do we {disfmarker} Docking station. That's a good point.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.
Industrial Designer: Perhaps.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem, because it's very cheap to make as well.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or what was it? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fifty grand.
Project Manager: Fifteen fifteen million. I think we will. {vocalsound} If we gonna export this product. It's innovative.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Especially in America. People are pretty decadent. Sometimes.
User Interface: Yeah. Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, still I think {disfmarker} I mean if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people.
Project Manager: You can do more. Yeah.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: So maybe we should just re-focus.
Project Manager: Just put it on the market for everybody. You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: Or specifically for younger people.
Project Manager: That's one thing you can change it with.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: That's true.
Project Manager: So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market. Just as a test. See how it works. That's I think a good advantage.
Marketing: Yeah, I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is, than would be with older people. Even if it were their covers.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh, uh then I think we can have our little celebration, right now.
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Party party.
Project Manager: Yeah. I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire. I think.
User Interface: Where's the champagne?
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: I don't know. I didn't get a message from the from ending of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, I believe y uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I think I have one now.
Marketing: Oh you did.
Project Manager: Five more minutes? Oh that's nice.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Then we still have some questions. If somebody has some questions they can ask them now. Or we can put these in the project folder as well. Maybe that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Export as picture, I think.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm. This is another network, I guess. Does somebody see the project folder? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't. Hmm. My Documents.
User Interface: Uh maybe uh they will save it. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I'll just put it in My Documents
Marketing: Yeah, it probably will.
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} That's okay. Okay. {vocalsound} I think I'm going to make our final presentation now.
Marketing: Oh yeah, you're supposed to make a final {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then I will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation. Summary of the project.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Are we supposed to go into our own rooms again?
User Interface: Uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire.
Project Manager: Yeah. Questionnaire. I think you all get a questionnaire in in your room.
User Interface: So uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then I'll meet you in I think about ten minutes, or something.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Hopefully my pen will download its software. Oh. Or data.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. That'd be nice. | When the group found out that they came across a fairly tight budget, they cut the number of batteries from 2 to 1 and chose plastic as the cheapest case material supplement. But they still kept the advanced chip, LCD screen, and docking station, all of which they considered to be the strength of the product. After that, they touched on the button issue and realized that that was where the biggest cost driver hid. As a hurry solution, they quickly discarded the help and the mute button, replaced buttons for the program with a scroll-wheel, and removed a volume button and a channel button to reduce cost. | qmsum |
Why was Marketing discontent with all those changes made to buttons during the discussion about finance?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Hello. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good afternoon. Sorry I'm a little late.
Project Manager: No problem.
Marketing: Got stuck in the traffic.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's possible on uh this time of day. Starts at three o'clock. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the, not only the product, but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And this uh design, detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design, the usability interface design, and we will do the product evaluation. Um, in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria. {vocalsound} Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money, and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation, and the closing after that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the {disfmarker} this is prototype presentation. So, if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button, uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to {disfmarker} one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um, {vocalsound} is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality?
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Sure uh just pop in at any time.
Marketing: Um, when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page.
User Interface: Uh, that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh {disfmarker} So um {disfmarker} You put it uh {disfmarker} you um came in uh page uh one hundred. Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And you {disfmarker} But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel. S so uh the shifting uh button. Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext, and shifting uh down. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Okay. Um {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple. Uh just a few buttons and large buttons.
User Interface: Oh yeah?
Project Manager: But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons. So I'm wondering if we if we neely {disfmarker} really need all of those buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think if you look at most controls, they've got more buttons than this.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And well the on-off button, it's it's a necessity.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You can't drop that one. The volume and channel buttons, you need you obviously need those those.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice. So we could cancel that one. I think the help button really is necessary
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh, or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Long time. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If you put {disfmarker}
User Interface: But m Yeah. We disc discuss that already. But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option. So uh they just put in uh put {vocalsound} press uh the button and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} you can't leave out the number buttons I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary.
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So it's rather basic already.
Marketing: Yeah. Think so. That's what I pointed out earlier. If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here.
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just n normal plain buttons.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah,
Industrial Designer: It's rather hard to draw on the white-board.
User Interface: it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But they're supposed to be equal sized, round, with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume, the the triangle and stuff.
Project Manager: Yeah.'Kay.
User Interface: Yeah yeah. Just to recognise it, so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just for recognition.
User Interface: Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um {disfmarker} Y uh
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also,
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it. Uh so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons. With a a different colour than the case.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: So they jump out.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh that's about it.
Project Manager: That's nice. Then because we only have thirty minutes left, I will move on to the finance part, which is pretty exciting, to see if it's all possible what we wanna do. And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If we see {disfmarker} I don't know if I've filled in correctly, so just correct me if you see uh something wrong. I counted two batteries. But maybe we can also use one. I don't know if it's possible.
Marketing: Since it rechargeable.
Project Manager: It's rechargeable. That's right.
User Interface: Yeah we can u just uh {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. That's two Euros off. {vocalsound}
User Interface:'Kay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We need the advanced chip. So there's not much to uh {vocalsound} to save there.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Here we have the single curves. Uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro. Um,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: I don't know, but I think the single curved is good for design, and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we have to keep that.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Then we have the case material supplements. It's plastic. It's the cheapest one we need. So that's uh not much to save either. But then the biggest costs are the buttons. So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Because you have to {disfmarker} we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end. Um,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so if we {disfmarker} Let's fir first count the buttons we have now.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Sixteen, I believe so.
Project Manager: Because I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Sixteen. Nah, that will be even more then. Eighteen Euros. So,
User Interface: Uh seventeen. Uh with the help button.
Project Manager: seventeen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, including the help?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Damn.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh seventeen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long, or pressing down a a number long.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: That saves us uh one Euro already.'Cause then we have got fifteen I think?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Wouldn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen buttons.
Marketing: Yeah. No. That wouldn't be an option.
Project Manager: And this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each, right?
Project Manager: No those are one, I think.
User Interface: Yeah. Where did uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well, think actually there're two buttons,
User Interface: Uh, it's just one button.
Marketing: aren't they?
User Interface: But, um {disfmarker} Yeah. There were uh two uh for one big button. But they are uh more expensive than the small ones. Uh, yeah. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but th it's not stated in this files.
User Interface: It's just a {gap}.
Project Manager: So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one, by pressing
Marketing: Well I was thinking, maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button.
Project Manager: That's possibility as well.
Marketing: That would cut the cost.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} And it's good for the design as well. So you can make {disfmarker} Uh let's see. If you make this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Looks a bit like uh a cross. {vocalsound} Plus. Min.
User Interface: But I don't don't know if if it's cheaper.
Project Manager: Uh s yeah channel.
User Interface: So uh,
Project Manager: Yeah w
User Interface: we've still got four buttons, but just um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah th I think they count uh the materials.
User Interface: You got uh not not a butt button itself, but uh on the um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah on the chip there. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That's right. That's right.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I think because we have the advanced chip
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we can just count this as one button.
User Interface: Yeah, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But, I think this really is four buttons anyhow.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} No but I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Maybe it is, but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros. Also the L_C_ display, I think it's, I think it's too expensive for the display we use.
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh that's that's a big cost.
Project Manager: I think they uh try t
Industrial Designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip.
Project Manager: That's right, but what's the big advantage of our remote then? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Only the docking station, I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Which isn't the {disfmarker} the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: So it's not even taken into the price.
Project Manager: That's extra. {vocalsound} That's extra. That's right.
Marketing: Maybe we should to a different supplier.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's an option.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Poland. Something. {vocalsound} Polish supplier. Don't you think we can, if we can count this as v as one button, and integrate th uh these buttons in three, then we save a lot of money as well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We we could save money on it. But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's a point.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So um {disfmarker} Yeah. We m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or {disfmarker} Can't uh go um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Well, since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier, more easy, maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little. Especially since we have those nice features.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros. We don't have any more budget to develop it.
User Interface: Is it impossible to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The margin will get too small. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty.
Project Manager: It is. If you leave out the L_C_ display. And if you use less buttons. Say {disfmarker} Or you can take the single chip.
User Interface: I don't think so.
Marketing: It would be a be a pretty rigid one.
User Interface: S Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But, you can't use uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ten.
Project Manager: There it is. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But then w Good looking.
User Interface: Uh, wi with n Oh, with uh attractive uh o options.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: So uh, you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's uh difficult as well,
Marketing: Or b
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost, or just any other remote control.
Industrial Designer: No remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers. Then w
User Interface: Scroll-wheel's one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because then we save ten buttons.
User Interface: No, it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then we have five and one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And and see. If we have this one and we've got the advanced {disfmarker} W uh, we're getting close. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're getting closer.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: But how does scroll-wheel work here?
Project Manager: Then you will {disfmarker} Or maybe you can um scroll. If you scroll you will see the numbers on the L_C_D_ display. Until you've got the right number, then you push it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also. Integrated scroll-wheel push-button.
Project Manager: Alright. It's gotta scroll and push.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You could just not scroll for a half a second.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second, then it g turns to that channel.
Industrial Designer: So you won't need a button.
Marketing: I think that would be like the end of our usability.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But it would definitely crop cost, a lot.
User Interface: D yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we need the battery. {vocalsound} And the regular chip is not possible? It has to be advanced?
Industrial Designer: If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip, yes.
Project Manager: It has to be advanced. Yeah. Okay.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And we can save a Euro by a flat design. That's an option we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ja ja.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Then we're almost there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you v could just leave out one more button.
Project Manager: Yeah. So if we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah but I think that's {disfmarker} That is a big advantage,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a big advantage.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can we use {disfmarker} can't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button?
User Interface: Uh, yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think so. Yeah.
Project Manager: If you push it three times?
Marketing: Well, think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: right now you just push the teletext button, go to page eight eight eight,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and teletext disappears. But the subtitles stay there.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} But if you push the teletext button twice {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight? Eight hundred eighty eight. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that's the case on most {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker} One m uh one b uh, a few buttons.
Project Manager: Ah that's not really that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well, that could be just uh like the scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people,
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Holding a remote with {vocalsound} which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: With only five buttons on it. And a scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide, you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel. If you just make it real simple. Because it saves it saves a lot of money. And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen, which can provide extra information. How to use the scroll wheel. How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles.
Marketing: True. True.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And it's good for the innovative design as well. If you would erase these. Mm eraser? And we put uh {disfmarker} Looks a bit odd maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a pretty big scroll wheel.
Project Manager: That is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Something like that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then, yeah. We've got the scroll-wheel. One, two, three, four, five buttons, if we erase this one. And these are two buttons then.
Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that. And just um {disfmarker} If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's really a good good idea, I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.
Industrial Designer: More obvious.
Project Manager: So we make one for the volume, one for the channel. Plus scroll. That's right.
Industrial Designer: So if we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we've got one, two, three. Yeah, we can leave the teletext in if we want. That's m that's better.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So this is five buttons.
Industrial Designer: If we leave out all those buttons, perhaps you can go with the flat flat case. And make it smaller overall.
Project Manager: Y yeah.
Industrial Designer: So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button, the screen right behi under that, than the scroll button
Project Manager: Mm yeah. Uh yeah, and then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you get a a much smaller remote.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Uh yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it sh
Project Manager: So we can decrease this one to four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah?
Marketing: Right now we have five.
User Interface: But uh, you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's no problem.
User Interface: Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made, I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: And cases come right out of the machine.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine, than a flat one. I think this is a really easy one. Um, what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design? Freek, what do you think?
Marketing: Well, I still think we should go for the single curve design.
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But then again, {gap} all these changes are not really okay with me.
Industrial Designer: Richard's argument was very good. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: But since we just have to.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We have to cut costs. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah I'm ag
Marketing: I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend {vocalsound} eighteen dollars a a remote.
Project Manager: Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.
Marketing: Or do some market research and see what the options are.
Project Manager: Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So people will use it more, and especially for the help functions,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar, scroll button. It will be necessary to have good help function, as well. So this is scroll. I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier. {vocalsound} Before we went on to the to the whole design.
Marketing: Yes. Definitely. {vocalsound}
User Interface: The th
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} I'm glad we could make a bit.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: It's pretty different, if you saw the last one than {vocalsound} this one.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's pretty different.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell.
Project Manager: Yeah. It will. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff. This is not familiar for them.
Project Manager: No, but I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them.
Project Manager: I think the most {disfmarker}
User Interface: But they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios. Uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels.
Project Manager: That's right.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We can let l
User Interface: So maybe it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We can stick it out, a bit. Like a old old buttons. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Maybe that's recognisable for them as well. Yeah. That's a good one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So, I'm afraid we have to move on. And it's uh it's b uh less frightening, I think. If they see this design they think oh, there are only five buttons, and uh {disfmarker} But we will see.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: That's true. Might uh {disfmarker} might be confusing too.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's definitely right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: They'd be like, what? Only five buttons?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: But very special, so uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would buy it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But you're not sixty. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's right. I would buy it if I was six. {vocalsound} No I don't know. What it costs under twelve and a half Euros? No? Uh, yes they are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No. But we can go on with the project evaluation.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Let's see. I can sit down I think. We still have fifteen minutes left, so we're nice on schedule.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um, the project process.
Marketing: So um, I like set up all these criteria. And evaluation of the thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Evaluation criteria. That's right. That was the the point I forgot. I should {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There we are. Evaluation criteria. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thank you. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Go ahead.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got five minutes I think for those criteria.
Marketing: Five more minutes?
Project Manager: No we've got fifteen minutes but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Uh yes. What?
Marketing:'Kay so I did some literature study study, and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier.
Project Manager: Uh yeah.
Marketing: Translated it into criteria, which would be these. Um, is the remote fancy? The shape, look and feel. Innovative? What new functions are there? Uh, easy to use? Uh, learnability is a very important factor here. Uh, is it functional? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions? And are the those functions that are there, are they useful? And the cost. The target group. Is the remote really for the group we're making it for? And recognability. If our company is {disfmarker} If it is easily recognisable that our company made it? And {disfmarker} So we're supposed to evaluate it right now.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Let's see. Oh I have to say this was a little hard, because the minutes of our last meeting were not here.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's because my pen failed to upload his data.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I tried to
Marketing: Interesting.
Project Manager: but it's uh it's giving errors by downloading the software.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.'Kay.
Marketing: Is the design fancy, on a scale of one to seven?
Project Manager: I think it's fancy.
Industrial Designer: Six.
Project Manager: Yeah. Six.
User Interface: Uh six. Yeah.
Marketing: We all go for six? Good. Um, is the design innovative?
Project Manager: Very. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. Sh
Marketing: I think so, with our L_C_D_ screen, docking station, scroll-buttons.
Project Manager: Subtitles, buttons. Yeah. Seven.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Seven?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we've got twenty cents for our docking station, huh? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should be do-able.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right.
Marketing: Is the design easy to use?
User Interface: Mm. Not really.
Project Manager: That's a bit dodgy.
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} Would be for us. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: For old people I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would say four. Four or five between. Between four or five.
User Interface: W
Industrial Designer: Four or five. Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. Four.
Marketing: I'd go for four, too.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Is it functional?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is the design functional? Um, do we have all functions that we want to include?
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: N Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think we do. Do we have too many functions?
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: I don't think so. It's pretty slim.
Project Manager: Think it's uh seven.
Marketing: Seven. Oh, and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control? Like it getting lost and {disfmarker} R_S_I_ influences?
User Interface: Mm m
Industrial Designer: Mm, we haven't thought of that one.
Project Manager: It was.
Marketing: Think we do.
Project Manager: I had them worked out. Mm. They are ugly, not very functional, and getting lost.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well they are now.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Does the design fit the group of focus?
User Interface: Mm, th yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think that's a three.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No I think with our new radio button, I think it's uh I think it's better.
Marketing: I think it doesn't.
User Interface: Yeah. Uh {disfmarker} We have to test it s But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I still {disfmarker} I think it's too m too fancy. Too too flashy.
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control.
User Interface: Uh, yeah, true.
Project Manager: Yeah. I would give it a four.
Marketing: I'm not sure. I think I'd go for two.
User Interface: I go for three. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have to do the three. It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay. Is the company company recognisable?
Project Manager: Yes it is.
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Well, we have the logo there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And they wanna put fashion in their products. Uh in the slogan of the company. And we have the removable front cases. So, I think it's very recognisable.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: So that will be this. I was also supposed to calculate the score, but thought we would have another private thingy after this.
Project Manager: We've got a calculate it. Mm?
Industrial Designer: Twendag sieven an twendag.
Marketing: Is this {disfmarker} Like after this, are we done? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: N We've gonna {disfmarker} We're going to evaluate it.
Marketing: We're gonna go to our other room again. Well, anyhow. These are seven factors times seven is forty something. Two? No.
Project Manager: {gap} Forty nine.
Marketing: Nine? Uh, minus one. Minus three, minus four. {vocalsound} Minus four. So that would be minus eight. Forty one out of forty nine.
Project Manager: Forty one. That's {disfmarker} Around eighty percent.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: What is it?
Marketing: Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here.
Project Manager: That's eighty four percent. I think that's a pretty nice score.
User Interface: Hmm. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Hmm.'Kay. So that will be the evaluation.
Project Manager: Thank you. So, that brings us to the project evaluation. Yep. Thank you.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Project process. Did we move through the right phases, you think? {vocalsound} Along the process?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. But it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier. In the design phase.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's right. So lack of information about prices.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah. Definitely.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh {disfmarker} Okay. Satisfaction. Was there room for creativity?
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not too much. {vocalsound} No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's because of the finance sheet. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, there w there was enough room, but the finance uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, true. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The room was {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And I would've liked to go for the younger users also.
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Restrictions. Internet access.'Kay. Leadership. Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions? Yeah?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Teamwork? Did it work out? Working together? Also, you {disfmarker} two of you with the uh last phase?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, was okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Nice.
Industrial Designer: The tasks are very structured, so you can just do step by step and it's very easy.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} tasks. Okay. Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do? Or were they too much?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well, the smart-board, the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass, but {disfmarker} The digital the digital pen is very nice.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Smart-board.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If it wants to download its uh data. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. Yeah.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Failed download. Smart-board was irritating. {vocalsound} So you rather wanted to have a flip-over? Or something else?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: A flip-over or a more precise uh digit
User Interface: A flipper's uh easier, so {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Faster as well, I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah. Flip-over.
User Interface: But if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation, it's easier to uh share it with uh other people. Uh so uh
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet, or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory.
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I tried to open the file on my laptop,
User Interface: Yeah? No?
Industrial Designer: No. Didn't work.
Marketing: but {vocalsound} not possible.
Project Manager: Uh you need a smart board uh application I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But I think you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: T can uh can you export it uh like a {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Should be possible. Yeah you can export it as image.
Marketing: {gap} no.
Project Manager: Must {disfmarker} Yeah must be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should've done that then.
Project Manager: So the sharing of the information was uh was okay?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Pen is here.
Project Manager: Uh, network.
User Interface: Uh {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, pen is here on the table.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, yeah. So you can {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. {gap} It's possible.
User Interface: It's possible.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: That's nice. Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings? Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh {disfmarker} Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer. Uh, so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker} Yeah. So everybody puts his own score.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And then {vocalsound} it mediates the score,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and you can get one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's better. So that's uh {disfmarker} How do we call? Evaluation criteria. Okay. Mm, any more ideas? Or questions about the project? Or about the product?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Because I think then that we get to our last sheet. Are the costs within the budget?
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: They are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Considering we are not going to make a docking station.
Project Manager: Do we {disfmarker} Docking station. That's a good point.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.
Industrial Designer: Perhaps.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem, because it's very cheap to make as well.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or what was it? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fifty grand.
Project Manager: Fifteen fifteen million. I think we will. {vocalsound} If we gonna export this product. It's innovative.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Especially in America. People are pretty decadent. Sometimes.
User Interface: Yeah. Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, still I think {disfmarker} I mean if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people.
Project Manager: You can do more. Yeah.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: So maybe we should just re-focus.
Project Manager: Just put it on the market for everybody. You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: Or specifically for younger people.
Project Manager: That's one thing you can change it with.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: That's true.
Project Manager: So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market. Just as a test. See how it works. That's I think a good advantage.
Marketing: Yeah, I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is, than would be with older people. Even if it were their covers.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh, uh then I think we can have our little celebration, right now.
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Party party.
Project Manager: Yeah. I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire. I think.
User Interface: Where's the champagne?
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: I don't know. I didn't get a message from the from ending of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, I believe y uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I think I have one now.
Marketing: Oh you did.
Project Manager: Five more minutes? Oh that's nice.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Then we still have some questions. If somebody has some questions they can ask them now. Or we can put these in the project folder as well. Maybe that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Export as picture, I think.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm. This is another network, I guess. Does somebody see the project folder? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't. Hmm. My Documents.
User Interface: Uh maybe uh they will save it. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I'll just put it in My Documents
Marketing: Yeah, it probably will.
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} That's okay. Okay. {vocalsound} I think I'm going to make our final presentation now.
Marketing: Oh yeah, you're supposed to make a final {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then I will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation. Summary of the project.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Are we supposed to go into our own rooms again?
User Interface: Uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire.
Project Manager: Yeah. Questionnaire. I think you all get a questionnaire in in your room.
User Interface: So uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then I'll meet you in I think about ten minutes, or something.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Hopefully my pen will download its software. Oh. Or data.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. That'd be nice. | First and foremost, Marketing believed that the elder generation expected to have ten buttons for the number one to zero, rather than a scroll-wheel with radio buttons, which would inevitably harm the usability. In this case, a lot of marketing would be required to convince elderly users, who were unfamiliar with fancy stuff like scroll-wheel at all. Additionally, he complained that the cost limit made it almost impossible to produce anything better than normal controls, and that he would not make those impelled changes if it was not for cost's sake. | qmsum |
During process evaluation, why did not Marketing agree that the meeting process was moving along the right phases?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Hello. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good afternoon. Sorry I'm a little late.
Project Manager: No problem.
Marketing: Got stuck in the traffic.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's possible on uh this time of day. Starts at three o'clock. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the, not only the product, but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And this uh design, detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design, the usability interface design, and we will do the product evaluation. Um, in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria. {vocalsound} Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money, and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation, and the closing after that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the {disfmarker} this is prototype presentation. So, if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button, uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to {disfmarker} one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um, {vocalsound} is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality?
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Sure uh just pop in at any time.
Marketing: Um, when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page.
User Interface: Uh, that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh {disfmarker} So um {disfmarker} You put it uh {disfmarker} you um came in uh page uh one hundred. Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And you {disfmarker} But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel. S so uh the shifting uh button. Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext, and shifting uh down. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Okay. Um {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple. Uh just a few buttons and large buttons.
User Interface: Oh yeah?
Project Manager: But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons. So I'm wondering if we if we neely {disfmarker} really need all of those buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think if you look at most controls, they've got more buttons than this.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And well the on-off button, it's it's a necessity.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You can't drop that one. The volume and channel buttons, you need you obviously need those those.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice. So we could cancel that one. I think the help button really is necessary
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh, or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Long time. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If you put {disfmarker}
User Interface: But m Yeah. We disc discuss that already. But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option. So uh they just put in uh put {vocalsound} press uh the button and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} you can't leave out the number buttons I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary.
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So it's rather basic already.
Marketing: Yeah. Think so. That's what I pointed out earlier. If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here.
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just n normal plain buttons.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah,
Industrial Designer: It's rather hard to draw on the white-board.
User Interface: it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But they're supposed to be equal sized, round, with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume, the the triangle and stuff.
Project Manager: Yeah.'Kay.
User Interface: Yeah yeah. Just to recognise it, so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just for recognition.
User Interface: Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um {disfmarker} Y uh
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also,
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it. Uh so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons. With a a different colour than the case.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: So they jump out.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh that's about it.
Project Manager: That's nice. Then because we only have thirty minutes left, I will move on to the finance part, which is pretty exciting, to see if it's all possible what we wanna do. And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If we see {disfmarker} I don't know if I've filled in correctly, so just correct me if you see uh something wrong. I counted two batteries. But maybe we can also use one. I don't know if it's possible.
Marketing: Since it rechargeable.
Project Manager: It's rechargeable. That's right.
User Interface: Yeah we can u just uh {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. That's two Euros off. {vocalsound}
User Interface:'Kay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We need the advanced chip. So there's not much to uh {vocalsound} to save there.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Here we have the single curves. Uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro. Um,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: I don't know, but I think the single curved is good for design, and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we have to keep that.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Then we have the case material supplements. It's plastic. It's the cheapest one we need. So that's uh not much to save either. But then the biggest costs are the buttons. So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Because you have to {disfmarker} we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end. Um,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so if we {disfmarker} Let's fir first count the buttons we have now.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Sixteen, I believe so.
Project Manager: Because I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Sixteen. Nah, that will be even more then. Eighteen Euros. So,
User Interface: Uh seventeen. Uh with the help button.
Project Manager: seventeen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, including the help?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Damn.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh seventeen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long, or pressing down a a number long.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: That saves us uh one Euro already.'Cause then we have got fifteen I think?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Wouldn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen buttons.
Marketing: Yeah. No. That wouldn't be an option.
Project Manager: And this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each, right?
Project Manager: No those are one, I think.
User Interface: Yeah. Where did uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well, think actually there're two buttons,
User Interface: Uh, it's just one button.
Marketing: aren't they?
User Interface: But, um {disfmarker} Yeah. There were uh two uh for one big button. But they are uh more expensive than the small ones. Uh, yeah. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but th it's not stated in this files.
User Interface: It's just a {gap}.
Project Manager: So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one, by pressing
Marketing: Well I was thinking, maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button.
Project Manager: That's possibility as well.
Marketing: That would cut the cost.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} And it's good for the design as well. So you can make {disfmarker} Uh let's see. If you make this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Looks a bit like uh a cross. {vocalsound} Plus. Min.
User Interface: But I don't don't know if if it's cheaper.
Project Manager: Uh s yeah channel.
User Interface: So uh,
Project Manager: Yeah w
User Interface: we've still got four buttons, but just um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah th I think they count uh the materials.
User Interface: You got uh not not a butt button itself, but uh on the um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah on the chip there. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That's right. That's right.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I think because we have the advanced chip
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we can just count this as one button.
User Interface: Yeah, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But, I think this really is four buttons anyhow.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} No but I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Maybe it is, but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros. Also the L_C_ display, I think it's, I think it's too expensive for the display we use.
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh that's that's a big cost.
Project Manager: I think they uh try t
Industrial Designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip.
Project Manager: That's right, but what's the big advantage of our remote then? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Only the docking station, I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Which isn't the {disfmarker} the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: So it's not even taken into the price.
Project Manager: That's extra. {vocalsound} That's extra. That's right.
Marketing: Maybe we should to a different supplier.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's an option.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Poland. Something. {vocalsound} Polish supplier. Don't you think we can, if we can count this as v as one button, and integrate th uh these buttons in three, then we save a lot of money as well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We we could save money on it. But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's a point.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So um {disfmarker} Yeah. We m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or {disfmarker} Can't uh go um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Well, since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier, more easy, maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little. Especially since we have those nice features.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros. We don't have any more budget to develop it.
User Interface: Is it impossible to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The margin will get too small. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty.
Project Manager: It is. If you leave out the L_C_ display. And if you use less buttons. Say {disfmarker} Or you can take the single chip.
User Interface: I don't think so.
Marketing: It would be a be a pretty rigid one.
User Interface: S Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But, you can't use uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ten.
Project Manager: There it is. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But then w Good looking.
User Interface: Uh, wi with n Oh, with uh attractive uh o options.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: So uh, you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's uh difficult as well,
Marketing: Or b
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost, or just any other remote control.
Industrial Designer: No remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers. Then w
User Interface: Scroll-wheel's one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because then we save ten buttons.
User Interface: No, it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then we have five and one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And and see. If we have this one and we've got the advanced {disfmarker} W uh, we're getting close. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're getting closer.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: But how does scroll-wheel work here?
Project Manager: Then you will {disfmarker} Or maybe you can um scroll. If you scroll you will see the numbers on the L_C_D_ display. Until you've got the right number, then you push it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also. Integrated scroll-wheel push-button.
Project Manager: Alright. It's gotta scroll and push.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You could just not scroll for a half a second.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second, then it g turns to that channel.
Industrial Designer: So you won't need a button.
Marketing: I think that would be like the end of our usability.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But it would definitely crop cost, a lot.
User Interface: D yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we need the battery. {vocalsound} And the regular chip is not possible? It has to be advanced?
Industrial Designer: If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip, yes.
Project Manager: It has to be advanced. Yeah. Okay.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And we can save a Euro by a flat design. That's an option we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ja ja.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Then we're almost there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you v could just leave out one more button.
Project Manager: Yeah. So if we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah but I think that's {disfmarker} That is a big advantage,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a big advantage.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can we use {disfmarker} can't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button?
User Interface: Uh, yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think so. Yeah.
Project Manager: If you push it three times?
Marketing: Well, think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: right now you just push the teletext button, go to page eight eight eight,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and teletext disappears. But the subtitles stay there.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} But if you push the teletext button twice {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight? Eight hundred eighty eight. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that's the case on most {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker} One m uh one b uh, a few buttons.
Project Manager: Ah that's not really that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well, that could be just uh like the scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people,
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Holding a remote with {vocalsound} which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: With only five buttons on it. And a scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide, you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel. If you just make it real simple. Because it saves it saves a lot of money. And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen, which can provide extra information. How to use the scroll wheel. How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles.
Marketing: True. True.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And it's good for the innovative design as well. If you would erase these. Mm eraser? And we put uh {disfmarker} Looks a bit odd maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a pretty big scroll wheel.
Project Manager: That is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Something like that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then, yeah. We've got the scroll-wheel. One, two, three, four, five buttons, if we erase this one. And these are two buttons then.
Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that. And just um {disfmarker} If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's really a good good idea, I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.
Industrial Designer: More obvious.
Project Manager: So we make one for the volume, one for the channel. Plus scroll. That's right.
Industrial Designer: So if we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we've got one, two, three. Yeah, we can leave the teletext in if we want. That's m that's better.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So this is five buttons.
Industrial Designer: If we leave out all those buttons, perhaps you can go with the flat flat case. And make it smaller overall.
Project Manager: Y yeah.
Industrial Designer: So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button, the screen right behi under that, than the scroll button
Project Manager: Mm yeah. Uh yeah, and then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you get a a much smaller remote.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Uh yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it sh
Project Manager: So we can decrease this one to four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah?
Marketing: Right now we have five.
User Interface: But uh, you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's no problem.
User Interface: Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made, I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: And cases come right out of the machine.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine, than a flat one. I think this is a really easy one. Um, what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design? Freek, what do you think?
Marketing: Well, I still think we should go for the single curve design.
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But then again, {gap} all these changes are not really okay with me.
Industrial Designer: Richard's argument was very good. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: But since we just have to.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We have to cut costs. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah I'm ag
Marketing: I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend {vocalsound} eighteen dollars a a remote.
Project Manager: Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.
Marketing: Or do some market research and see what the options are.
Project Manager: Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So people will use it more, and especially for the help functions,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar, scroll button. It will be necessary to have good help function, as well. So this is scroll. I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier. {vocalsound} Before we went on to the to the whole design.
Marketing: Yes. Definitely. {vocalsound}
User Interface: The th
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} I'm glad we could make a bit.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: It's pretty different, if you saw the last one than {vocalsound} this one.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's pretty different.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell.
Project Manager: Yeah. It will. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff. This is not familiar for them.
Project Manager: No, but I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them.
Project Manager: I think the most {disfmarker}
User Interface: But they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios. Uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels.
Project Manager: That's right.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We can let l
User Interface: So maybe it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We can stick it out, a bit. Like a old old buttons. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Maybe that's recognisable for them as well. Yeah. That's a good one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So, I'm afraid we have to move on. And it's uh it's b uh less frightening, I think. If they see this design they think oh, there are only five buttons, and uh {disfmarker} But we will see.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: That's true. Might uh {disfmarker} might be confusing too.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's definitely right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: They'd be like, what? Only five buttons?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: But very special, so uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would buy it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But you're not sixty. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's right. I would buy it if I was six. {vocalsound} No I don't know. What it costs under twelve and a half Euros? No? Uh, yes they are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No. But we can go on with the project evaluation.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Let's see. I can sit down I think. We still have fifteen minutes left, so we're nice on schedule.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um, the project process.
Marketing: So um, I like set up all these criteria. And evaluation of the thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Evaluation criteria. That's right. That was the the point I forgot. I should {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There we are. Evaluation criteria. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thank you. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Go ahead.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got five minutes I think for those criteria.
Marketing: Five more minutes?
Project Manager: No we've got fifteen minutes but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Uh yes. What?
Marketing:'Kay so I did some literature study study, and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier.
Project Manager: Uh yeah.
Marketing: Translated it into criteria, which would be these. Um, is the remote fancy? The shape, look and feel. Innovative? What new functions are there? Uh, easy to use? Uh, learnability is a very important factor here. Uh, is it functional? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions? And are the those functions that are there, are they useful? And the cost. The target group. Is the remote really for the group we're making it for? And recognability. If our company is {disfmarker} If it is easily recognisable that our company made it? And {disfmarker} So we're supposed to evaluate it right now.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Let's see. Oh I have to say this was a little hard, because the minutes of our last meeting were not here.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's because my pen failed to upload his data.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I tried to
Marketing: Interesting.
Project Manager: but it's uh it's giving errors by downloading the software.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.'Kay.
Marketing: Is the design fancy, on a scale of one to seven?
Project Manager: I think it's fancy.
Industrial Designer: Six.
Project Manager: Yeah. Six.
User Interface: Uh six. Yeah.
Marketing: We all go for six? Good. Um, is the design innovative?
Project Manager: Very. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. Sh
Marketing: I think so, with our L_C_D_ screen, docking station, scroll-buttons.
Project Manager: Subtitles, buttons. Yeah. Seven.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Seven?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we've got twenty cents for our docking station, huh? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should be do-able.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right.
Marketing: Is the design easy to use?
User Interface: Mm. Not really.
Project Manager: That's a bit dodgy.
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} Would be for us. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: For old people I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would say four. Four or five between. Between four or five.
User Interface: W
Industrial Designer: Four or five. Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. Four.
Marketing: I'd go for four, too.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Is it functional?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is the design functional? Um, do we have all functions that we want to include?
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: N Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think we do. Do we have too many functions?
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: I don't think so. It's pretty slim.
Project Manager: Think it's uh seven.
Marketing: Seven. Oh, and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control? Like it getting lost and {disfmarker} R_S_I_ influences?
User Interface: Mm m
Industrial Designer: Mm, we haven't thought of that one.
Project Manager: It was.
Marketing: Think we do.
Project Manager: I had them worked out. Mm. They are ugly, not very functional, and getting lost.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well they are now.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Does the design fit the group of focus?
User Interface: Mm, th yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think that's a three.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No I think with our new radio button, I think it's uh I think it's better.
Marketing: I think it doesn't.
User Interface: Yeah. Uh {disfmarker} We have to test it s But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I still {disfmarker} I think it's too m too fancy. Too too flashy.
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control.
User Interface: Uh, yeah, true.
Project Manager: Yeah. I would give it a four.
Marketing: I'm not sure. I think I'd go for two.
User Interface: I go for three. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have to do the three. It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay. Is the company company recognisable?
Project Manager: Yes it is.
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Well, we have the logo there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And they wanna put fashion in their products. Uh in the slogan of the company. And we have the removable front cases. So, I think it's very recognisable.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: So that will be this. I was also supposed to calculate the score, but thought we would have another private thingy after this.
Project Manager: We've got a calculate it. Mm?
Industrial Designer: Twendag sieven an twendag.
Marketing: Is this {disfmarker} Like after this, are we done? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: N We've gonna {disfmarker} We're going to evaluate it.
Marketing: We're gonna go to our other room again. Well, anyhow. These are seven factors times seven is forty something. Two? No.
Project Manager: {gap} Forty nine.
Marketing: Nine? Uh, minus one. Minus three, minus four. {vocalsound} Minus four. So that would be minus eight. Forty one out of forty nine.
Project Manager: Forty one. That's {disfmarker} Around eighty percent.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: What is it?
Marketing: Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here.
Project Manager: That's eighty four percent. I think that's a pretty nice score.
User Interface: Hmm. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Hmm.'Kay. So that will be the evaluation.
Project Manager: Thank you. So, that brings us to the project evaluation. Yep. Thank you.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Project process. Did we move through the right phases, you think? {vocalsound} Along the process?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. But it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier. In the design phase.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's right. So lack of information about prices.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah. Definitely.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh {disfmarker} Okay. Satisfaction. Was there room for creativity?
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not too much. {vocalsound} No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's because of the finance sheet. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, there w there was enough room, but the finance uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, true. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The room was {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And I would've liked to go for the younger users also.
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Restrictions. Internet access.'Kay. Leadership. Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions? Yeah?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Teamwork? Did it work out? Working together? Also, you {disfmarker} two of you with the uh last phase?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, was okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Nice.
Industrial Designer: The tasks are very structured, so you can just do step by step and it's very easy.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} tasks. Okay. Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do? Or were they too much?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well, the smart-board, the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass, but {disfmarker} The digital the digital pen is very nice.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Smart-board.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If it wants to download its uh data. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. Yeah.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Failed download. Smart-board was irritating. {vocalsound} So you rather wanted to have a flip-over? Or something else?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: A flip-over or a more precise uh digit
User Interface: A flipper's uh easier, so {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Faster as well, I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah. Flip-over.
User Interface: But if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation, it's easier to uh share it with uh other people. Uh so uh
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet, or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory.
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I tried to open the file on my laptop,
User Interface: Yeah? No?
Industrial Designer: No. Didn't work.
Marketing: but {vocalsound} not possible.
Project Manager: Uh you need a smart board uh application I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But I think you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: T can uh can you export it uh like a {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Should be possible. Yeah you can export it as image.
Marketing: {gap} no.
Project Manager: Must {disfmarker} Yeah must be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should've done that then.
Project Manager: So the sharing of the information was uh was okay?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Pen is here.
Project Manager: Uh, network.
User Interface: Uh {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, pen is here on the table.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, yeah. So you can {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. {gap} It's possible.
User Interface: It's possible.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: That's nice. Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings? Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh {disfmarker} Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer. Uh, so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker} Yeah. So everybody puts his own score.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And then {vocalsound} it mediates the score,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and you can get one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's better. So that's uh {disfmarker} How do we call? Evaluation criteria. Okay. Mm, any more ideas? Or questions about the project? Or about the product?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Because I think then that we get to our last sheet. Are the costs within the budget?
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: They are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Considering we are not going to make a docking station.
Project Manager: Do we {disfmarker} Docking station. That's a good point.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.
Industrial Designer: Perhaps.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem, because it's very cheap to make as well.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or what was it? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fifty grand.
Project Manager: Fifteen fifteen million. I think we will. {vocalsound} If we gonna export this product. It's innovative.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Especially in America. People are pretty decadent. Sometimes.
User Interface: Yeah. Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, still I think {disfmarker} I mean if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people.
Project Manager: You can do more. Yeah.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: So maybe we should just re-focus.
Project Manager: Just put it on the market for everybody. You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: Or specifically for younger people.
Project Manager: That's one thing you can change it with.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: That's true.
Project Manager: So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market. Just as a test. See how it works. That's I think a good advantage.
Marketing: Yeah, I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is, than would be with older people. Even if it were their covers.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh, uh then I think we can have our little celebration, right now.
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Party party.
Project Manager: Yeah. I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire. I think.
User Interface: Where's the champagne?
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: I don't know. I didn't get a message from the from ending of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, I believe y uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I think I have one now.
Marketing: Oh you did.
Project Manager: Five more minutes? Oh that's nice.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Then we still have some questions. If somebody has some questions they can ask them now. Or we can put these in the project folder as well. Maybe that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Export as picture, I think.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm. This is another network, I guess. Does somebody see the project folder? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't. Hmm. My Documents.
User Interface: Uh maybe uh they will save it. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I'll just put it in My Documents
Marketing: Yeah, it probably will.
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} That's okay. Okay. {vocalsound} I think I'm going to make our final presentation now.
Marketing: Oh yeah, you're supposed to make a final {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then I will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation. Summary of the project.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Are we supposed to go into our own rooms again?
User Interface: Uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire.
Project Manager: Yeah. Questionnaire. I think you all get a questionnaire in in your room.
User Interface: So uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then I'll meet you in I think about ten minutes, or something.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Hopefully my pen will download its software. Oh. Or data.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. That'd be nice. | When it came to processing evaluation, though Industrial Designer appeared to think highly of Project Manager's arrangements, Marketing clearly voiced his dissent. as he explained, it is obvious that financial issues were touched on too late, making it imperative to further adjust to the final design during budget control. Project Manager himself admitted that there existed a lack of information about prices, which in fact led to a number of unrealistic dialogues about costly functions like recognition. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Hello. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good afternoon. Sorry I'm a little late.
Project Manager: No problem.
Marketing: Got stuck in the traffic.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's possible on uh this time of day. Starts at three o'clock. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the, not only the product, but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And this uh design, detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design, the usability interface design, and we will do the product evaluation. Um, in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria. {vocalsound} Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money, and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation, and the closing after that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the {disfmarker} this is prototype presentation. So, if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button, uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to {disfmarker} one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Um, {vocalsound} is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality?
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Sure uh just pop in at any time.
Marketing: Um, when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page.
User Interface: Uh, that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh {disfmarker} So um {disfmarker} You put it uh {disfmarker} you um came in uh page uh one hundred. Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And you {disfmarker} But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel. S so uh the shifting uh button. Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext, and shifting uh down. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. Okay. Um {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple. Uh just a few buttons and large buttons.
User Interface: Oh yeah?
Project Manager: But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons. So I'm wondering if we if we neely {disfmarker} really need all of those buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think if you look at most controls, they've got more buttons than this.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And well the on-off button, it's it's a necessity.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You can't drop that one. The volume and channel buttons, you need you obviously need those those.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice. So we could cancel that one. I think the help button really is necessary
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Uh, or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Long time. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If you put {disfmarker}
User Interface: But m Yeah. We disc discuss that already. But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option. So uh they just put in uh put {vocalsound} press uh the button and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} you can't leave out the number buttons I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary.
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So it's rather basic already.
Marketing: Yeah. Think so. That's what I pointed out earlier. If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here.
Project Manager: Yep.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, they're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just n normal plain buttons.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah,
Industrial Designer: It's rather hard to draw on the white-board.
User Interface: it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But they're supposed to be equal sized, round, with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume, the the triangle and stuff.
Project Manager: Yeah.'Kay.
User Interface: Yeah yeah. Just to recognise it, so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just for recognition.
User Interface: Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um {disfmarker} Y uh
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also,
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it. Uh so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons. With a a different colour than the case.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: So they jump out.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh that's about it.
Project Manager: That's nice. Then because we only have thirty minutes left, I will move on to the finance part, which is pretty exciting, to see if it's all possible what we wanna do. And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If we see {disfmarker} I don't know if I've filled in correctly, so just correct me if you see uh something wrong. I counted two batteries. But maybe we can also use one. I don't know if it's possible.
Marketing: Since it rechargeable.
Project Manager: It's rechargeable. That's right.
User Interface: Yeah we can u just uh {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. That's two Euros off. {vocalsound}
User Interface:'Kay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We need the advanced chip. So there's not much to uh {vocalsound} to save there.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Here we have the single curves. Uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro. Um,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: I don't know, but I think the single curved is good for design, and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we have to keep that.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Then we have the case material supplements. It's plastic. It's the cheapest one we need. So that's uh not much to save either. But then the biggest costs are the buttons. So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Because you have to {disfmarker} we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end. Um,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so if we {disfmarker} Let's fir first count the buttons we have now.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Sixteen, I believe so.
Project Manager: Because I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Sixteen. Nah, that will be even more then. Eighteen Euros. So,
User Interface: Uh seventeen. Uh with the help button.
Project Manager: seventeen.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, including the help?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Damn.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh seventeen.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long, or pressing down a a number long.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: That saves us uh one Euro already.'Cause then we have got fifteen I think?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Wouldn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen buttons.
Marketing: Yeah. No. That wouldn't be an option.
Project Manager: And this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each, right?
Project Manager: No those are one, I think.
User Interface: Yeah. Where did uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well, think actually there're two buttons,
User Interface: Uh, it's just one button.
Marketing: aren't they?
User Interface: But, um {disfmarker} Yeah. There were uh two uh for one big button. But they are uh more expensive than the small ones. Uh, yeah. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but th it's not stated in this files.
User Interface: It's just a {gap}.
Project Manager: So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one, by pressing
Marketing: Well I was thinking, maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button.
Project Manager: That's possibility as well.
Marketing: That would cut the cost.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} And it's good for the design as well. So you can make {disfmarker} Uh let's see. If you make this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Looks a bit like uh a cross. {vocalsound} Plus. Min.
User Interface: But I don't don't know if if it's cheaper.
Project Manager: Uh s yeah channel.
User Interface: So uh,
Project Manager: Yeah w
User Interface: we've still got four buttons, but just um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah th I think they count uh the materials.
User Interface: You got uh not not a butt button itself, but uh on the um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah on the chip there. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That's right. That's right.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I think because we have the advanced chip
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we can just count this as one button.
User Interface: Yeah, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But, I think this really is four buttons anyhow.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} No but I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Maybe it is, but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros. Also the L_C_ display, I think it's, I think it's too expensive for the display we use.
Marketing: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh that's that's a big cost.
Project Manager: I think they uh try t
Industrial Designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip.
Project Manager: That's right, but what's the big advantage of our remote then? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Only the docking station, I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Which isn't the {disfmarker} the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: So it's not even taken into the price.
Project Manager: That's extra. {vocalsound} That's extra. That's right.
Marketing: Maybe we should to a different supplier.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's an option.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Poland. Something. {vocalsound} Polish supplier. Don't you think we can, if we can count this as v as one button, and integrate th uh these buttons in three, then we save a lot of money as well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We we could save money on it. But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's a point.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So um {disfmarker} Yeah. We m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or {disfmarker} Can't uh go um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Well, since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier, more easy, maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little. Especially since we have those nice features.
User Interface: Nay.
Project Manager: Yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros. We don't have any more budget to develop it.
User Interface: Is it impossible to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The margin will get too small. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty.
Project Manager: It is. If you leave out the L_C_ display. And if you use less buttons. Say {disfmarker} Or you can take the single chip.
User Interface: I don't think so.
Marketing: It would be a be a pretty rigid one.
User Interface: S Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But, you can't use uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ten.
Project Manager: There it is. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But then w Good looking.
User Interface: Uh, wi with n Oh, with uh attractive uh o options.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: So uh, you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's uh difficult as well,
Marketing: Or b
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost, or just any other remote control.
Industrial Designer: No remote. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers. Then w
User Interface: Scroll-wheel's one.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because then we save ten buttons.
User Interface: No, it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then we have five and one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And and see. If we have this one and we've got the advanced {disfmarker} W uh, we're getting close. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're getting closer.
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: But how does scroll-wheel work here?
Project Manager: Then you will {disfmarker} Or maybe you can um scroll. If you scroll you will see the numbers on the L_C_D_ display. Until you've got the right number, then you push it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also. Integrated scroll-wheel push-button.
Project Manager: Alright. It's gotta scroll and push.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You could just not scroll for a half a second.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second, then it g turns to that channel.
Industrial Designer: So you won't need a button.
Marketing: I think that would be like the end of our usability.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But it would definitely crop cost, a lot.
User Interface: D yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we need the battery. {vocalsound} And the regular chip is not possible? It has to be advanced?
Industrial Designer: If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip, yes.
Project Manager: It has to be advanced. Yeah. Okay.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And we can save a Euro by a flat design. That's an option we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ja ja.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Then we're almost there.
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you v could just leave out one more button.
Project Manager: Yeah. So if we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah but I think that's {disfmarker} That is a big advantage,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a big advantage.
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um, it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can we use {disfmarker} can't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button?
User Interface: Uh, yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think so. Yeah.
Project Manager: If you push it three times?
Marketing: Well, think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: right now you just push the teletext button, go to page eight eight eight,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and teletext disappears. But the subtitles stay there.
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} But if you push the teletext button twice {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight? Eight hundred eighty eight. {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that's the case on most {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker} One m uh one b uh, a few buttons.
Project Manager: Ah that's not really that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well, that could be just uh like the scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click, scroll to eight, click.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay.
Marketing: But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people,
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: Holding a remote with {vocalsound} which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: With only five buttons on it. And a scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide, you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel. If you just make it real simple. Because it saves it saves a lot of money. And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen, which can provide extra information. How to use the scroll wheel. How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles.
Marketing: True. True.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: And it's good for the innovative design as well. If you would erase these. Mm eraser? And we put uh {disfmarker} Looks a bit odd maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a pretty big scroll wheel.
Project Manager: That is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Something like that.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then, yeah. We've got the scroll-wheel. One, two, three, four, five buttons, if we erase this one. And these are two buttons then.
Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that. And just um {disfmarker} If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's really a good good idea, I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.
Industrial Designer: More obvious.
Project Manager: So we make one for the volume, one for the channel. Plus scroll. That's right.
Industrial Designer: So if we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we've got one, two, three. Yeah, we can leave the teletext in if we want. That's m that's better.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So this is five buttons.
Industrial Designer: If we leave out all those buttons, perhaps you can go with the flat flat case. And make it smaller overall.
Project Manager: Y yeah.
Industrial Designer: So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button, the screen right behi under that, than the scroll button
Project Manager: Mm yeah. Uh yeah, and then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you get a a much smaller remote.
Project Manager: That's right.
User Interface: Uh yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it sh
Project Manager: So we can decrease this one to four buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah?
Marketing: Right now we have five.
User Interface: But uh, you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's no problem.
User Interface: Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made, I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: And cases come right out of the machine.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine, than a flat one. I think this is a really easy one. Um, what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design? Freek, what do you think?
Marketing: Well, I still think we should go for the single curve design.
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But then again, {gap} all these changes are not really okay with me.
Industrial Designer: Richard's argument was very good. Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: But since we just have to.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We have to cut costs. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah I'm ag
Marketing: I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend {vocalsound} eighteen dollars a a remote.
Project Manager: Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.
Marketing: Or do some market research and see what the options are.
Project Manager: Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So people will use it more, and especially for the help functions,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar, scroll button. It will be necessary to have good help function, as well. So this is scroll. I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier. {vocalsound} Before we went on to the to the whole design.
Marketing: Yes. Definitely. {vocalsound}
User Interface: The th
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} I'm glad we could make a bit.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: It's pretty different, if you saw the last one than {vocalsound} this one.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's pretty different.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell.
Project Manager: Yeah. It will. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff. This is not familiar for them.
Project Manager: No, but I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them.
Project Manager: I think the most {disfmarker}
User Interface: But they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios. Uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels.
Project Manager: That's right.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We can let l
User Interface: So maybe it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We can stick it out, a bit. Like a old old buttons. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Maybe that's recognisable for them as well. Yeah. That's a good one.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So, I'm afraid we have to move on. And it's uh it's b uh less frightening, I think. If they see this design they think oh, there are only five buttons, and uh {disfmarker} But we will see.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: That's true. Might uh {disfmarker} might be confusing too.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's definitely right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: They'd be like, what? Only five buttons?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: But very special, so uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would buy it. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But you're not sixty. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's right. I would buy it if I was six. {vocalsound} No I don't know. What it costs under twelve and a half Euros? No? Uh, yes they are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No. But we can go on with the project evaluation.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Let's see. I can sit down I think. We still have fifteen minutes left, so we're nice on schedule.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um, the project process.
Marketing: So um, I like set up all these criteria. And evaluation of the thingy. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Evaluation criteria. That's right. That was the the point I forgot. I should {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There we are. Evaluation criteria. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thank you. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Go ahead.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got five minutes I think for those criteria.
Marketing: Five more minutes?
Project Manager: No we've got fifteen minutes but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Uh yes. What?
Marketing:'Kay so I did some literature study study, and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier.
Project Manager: Uh yeah.
Marketing: Translated it into criteria, which would be these. Um, is the remote fancy? The shape, look and feel. Innovative? What new functions are there? Uh, easy to use? Uh, learnability is a very important factor here. Uh, is it functional? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions? And are the those functions that are there, are they useful? And the cost. The target group. Is the remote really for the group we're making it for? And recognability. If our company is {disfmarker} If it is easily recognisable that our company made it? And {disfmarker} So we're supposed to evaluate it right now.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Let's see. Oh I have to say this was a little hard, because the minutes of our last meeting were not here.
Project Manager: Yeah, that's because my pen failed to upload his data.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I tried to
Marketing: Interesting.
Project Manager: but it's uh it's giving errors by downloading the software.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm.'Kay.
Marketing: Is the design fancy, on a scale of one to seven?
Project Manager: I think it's fancy.
Industrial Designer: Six.
Project Manager: Yeah. Six.
User Interface: Uh six. Yeah.
Marketing: We all go for six? Good. Um, is the design innovative?
Project Manager: Very. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm. Sh
Marketing: I think so, with our L_C_D_ screen, docking station, scroll-buttons.
Project Manager: Subtitles, buttons. Yeah. Seven.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Seven?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So we've got twenty cents for our docking station, huh? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should be do-able.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's right.
Marketing: Is the design easy to use?
User Interface: Mm. Not really.
Project Manager: That's a bit dodgy.
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} Would be for us. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: For old people I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would say four. Four or five between. Between four or five.
User Interface: W
Industrial Designer: Four or five. Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. Four.
Marketing: I'd go for four, too.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Is it functional?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is the design functional? Um, do we have all functions that we want to include?
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: N Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think we do. Do we have too many functions?
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: No.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: I don't think so. It's pretty slim.
Project Manager: Think it's uh seven.
Marketing: Seven. Oh, and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control? Like it getting lost and {disfmarker} R_S_I_ influences?
User Interface: Mm m
Industrial Designer: Mm, we haven't thought of that one.
Project Manager: It was.
Marketing: Think we do.
Project Manager: I had them worked out. Mm. They are ugly, not very functional, and getting lost.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well they are now.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Does the design fit the group of focus?
User Interface: Mm, th yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think that's a three.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: No I think with our new radio button, I think it's uh I think it's better.
Marketing: I think it doesn't.
User Interface: Yeah. Uh {disfmarker} We have to test it s But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't know.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I still {disfmarker} I think it's too m too fancy. Too too flashy.
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control.
User Interface: Uh, yeah, true.
Project Manager: Yeah. I would give it a four.
Marketing: I'm not sure. I think I'd go for two.
User Interface: I go for three. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have to do the three. It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing:'Kay. Is the company company recognisable?
Project Manager: Yes it is.
User Interface: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Well, we have the logo there.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And they wanna put fashion in their products. Uh in the slogan of the company. And we have the removable front cases. So, I think it's very recognisable.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yep.
Marketing: So that will be this. I was also supposed to calculate the score, but thought we would have another private thingy after this.
Project Manager: We've got a calculate it. Mm?
Industrial Designer: Twendag sieven an twendag.
Marketing: Is this {disfmarker} Like after this, are we done? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: N We've gonna {disfmarker} We're going to evaluate it.
Marketing: We're gonna go to our other room again. Well, anyhow. These are seven factors times seven is forty something. Two? No.
Project Manager: {gap} Forty nine.
Marketing: Nine? Uh, minus one. Minus three, minus four. {vocalsound} Minus four. So that would be minus eight. Forty one out of forty nine.
Project Manager: Forty one. That's {disfmarker} Around eighty percent.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: What is it?
Marketing: Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here.
Project Manager: That's eighty four percent. I think that's a pretty nice score.
User Interface: Hmm. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Hmm.'Kay. So that will be the evaluation.
Project Manager: Thank you. So, that brings us to the project evaluation. Yep. Thank you.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Project process. Did we move through the right phases, you think? {vocalsound} Along the process?
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah. But it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier. In the design phase.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's right. So lack of information about prices.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. That's true.
Marketing: Yeah. Definitely.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh {disfmarker} Okay. Satisfaction. Was there room for creativity?
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not too much. {vocalsound} No. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's because of the finance sheet. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, there w there was enough room, but the finance uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, true. But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The room was {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: And I would've liked to go for the younger users also.
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Restrictions. Internet access.'Kay. Leadership. Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions? Yeah?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Teamwork? Did it work out? Working together? Also, you {disfmarker} two of you with the uh last phase?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes, was okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Nice.
Industrial Designer: The tasks are very structured, so you can just do step by step and it's very easy.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} tasks. Okay. Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do? Or were they too much?
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Well, the smart-board, the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass, but {disfmarker} The digital the digital pen is very nice.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Smart-board.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: If it wants to download its uh data. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes. Yeah.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Failed download. Smart-board was irritating. {vocalsound} So you rather wanted to have a flip-over? Or something else?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: A flip-over or a more precise uh digit
User Interface: A flipper's uh easier, so {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Faster as well, I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah. Flip-over.
User Interface: But if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation, it's easier to uh share it with uh other people. Uh so uh
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet, or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory.
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I tried to open the file on my laptop,
User Interface: Yeah? No?
Industrial Designer: No. Didn't work.
Marketing: but {vocalsound} not possible.
Project Manager: Uh you need a smart board uh application I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But I think you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: T can uh can you export it uh like a {disfmarker} Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. Should be possible. Yeah you can export it as image.
Marketing: {gap} no.
Project Manager: Must {disfmarker} Yeah must be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should've done that then.
Project Manager: So the sharing of the information was uh was okay?
User Interface: {gap}.
Marketing: Pen is here.
Project Manager: Uh, network.
User Interface: Uh {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Yeah, pen is here on the table.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh, yeah. So you can {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. {gap} It's possible.
User Interface: It's possible.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: That's nice. Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings? Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh {disfmarker} Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer. Uh, so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker} Yeah. So everybody puts his own score.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And then {vocalsound} it mediates the score,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: and you can get one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's better. So that's uh {disfmarker} How do we call? Evaluation criteria. Okay. Mm, any more ideas? Or questions about the project? Or about the product?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Because I think then that we get to our last sheet. Are the costs within the budget?
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: They are.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Considering we are not going to make a docking station.
Project Manager: Do we {disfmarker} Docking station. That's a good point.
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.
Industrial Designer: Perhaps.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem, because it's very cheap to make as well.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or what was it? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fifty grand.
Project Manager: Fifteen fifteen million. I think we will. {vocalsound} If we gonna export this product. It's innovative.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Especially in America. People are pretty decadent. Sometimes.
User Interface: Yeah. Mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah, still I think {disfmarker} I mean if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people.
Project Manager: You can do more. Yeah.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: So maybe we should just re-focus.
Project Manager: Just put it on the market for everybody. You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: Or specifically for younger people.
Project Manager: That's one thing you can change it with.
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: That's true.
Project Manager: So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market. Just as a test. See how it works. That's I think a good advantage.
Marketing: Yeah, I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is, than would be with older people. Even if it were their covers.
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh, uh then I think we can have our little celebration, right now.
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Party party.
Project Manager: Yeah. I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire. I think.
User Interface: Where's the champagne?
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: I don't know. I didn't get a message from the from ending of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh, I believe y uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I think I have one now.
Marketing: Oh you did.
Project Manager: Five more minutes? Oh that's nice.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Then we still have some questions. If somebody has some questions they can ask them now. Or we can put these in the project folder as well. Maybe that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Export as picture, I think.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm. This is another network, I guess. Does somebody see the project folder? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't. Hmm. My Documents.
User Interface: Uh maybe uh they will save it. So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, I'll just put it in My Documents
Marketing: Yeah, it probably will.
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} That's okay. Okay. {vocalsound} I think I'm going to make our final presentation now.
Marketing: Oh yeah, you're supposed to make a final {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then I will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation. Summary of the project.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Are we supposed to go into our own rooms again?
User Interface: Uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire.
Project Manager: Yeah. Questionnaire. I think you all get a questionnaire in in your room.
User Interface: So uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then I'll meet you in I think about ten minutes, or something.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Hopefully my pen will download its software. Oh. Or data.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. That'd be nice. | The whole meeting was the final meeting of the project for discussion about the final design and project evaluation. Firstly, though Project Manager came late, he efficiently started the prototype presentation, during which Industrial Designer and User Interface presented the final design they worked out together. However, part of the features contained in their design, particularly too many buttons, were effectively rejected in the finance phase to reduce cost. Then, Marketing hosted the product evaluation and calculated a total score for their new remote control. After that, Project Manager guided the process evaluation and led the project to the closing phase. | qmsum |
How did Industrial Designer introduce the two prototypes of the remote control?
Marketing: Did you get my email with the slides? Ah. Tricky.
Industrial Designer: I guess I have to change the pen otherwise. Will be completely different.
Marketing: Dunno. Maybe they're supposed {disfmarker} the pen's supposed to go over the seats. Might be seat floor rather than person. Yeah, put it back.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And do you think {vocalsound} it's {gap}.
Marketing: Yep {vocalsound}. Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Jo's making faces at me. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So. Matthew is uh late again.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably an important man. Um. So well it is important for him to be here uh.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: He he he {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So what can you {disfmarker} {gap}?
Project Manager: You did work together didn't you?
Industrial Designer: Yeah we will {disfmarker} yeah, so I will be able to to summarize uh our meeting,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: but still I think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer. I think we can put on the {gap} here.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items.
Project Manager: Mm. Um yes
Industrial Designer: Um, can we have a phone,
Project Manager: but w we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: can someone {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes, maybe we should phone him. Um well {disfmarker} Um,
Industrial Designer: it's really w well designed {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm. Mm, object tracking. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue. Um so just for record I I will take uh notes again.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: And um well {vocalsound} first thing uh I was uh uh I got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Project Manager: when you stay in it's good, when you don't stay in you have to redesign. There is no {vocalsound} uh no negotiation uh {vocalsound} possible in this matter. So we have to consider that. {vocalsound} Good.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Um so maybe Anna, you can have your presentation.
Marketing: Well we can't {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} we can't do evaluation'til we have a design.
Project Manager: Okay Matthew. Nice uh you are here.
Industrial Designer: Great.
Project Manager: Great. Great. Oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs.
Industrial Designer: Yep. So I will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight Euros actually, right, seven eight Euros,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape, maybe the designer can uh explain better than me, but uh it's like a surf board.
Marketing: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: And you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf T_V_, maybe the web, and uh it's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf {vocalsound} when they see this stuff.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Or browse.
Industrial Designer: And also it's not too far from um a mobile.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: So people are used to that kind of shape,
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: right. Don't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we don't take {disfmarker}
User Interface: Now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now.
Industrial Designer: yeah. So here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Eye.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah L_A_ L_A_ L_E_D_,
User Interface: L_E_D_.
Industrial Designer: the on-off button, in red.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Here would be the volume. On the on the left,
Marketing: Oh yeah.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: okay, so {gap}
User Interface: Mm-hmm, hmm.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: easy to turn on t and off. And um so this is a very cheap version so there are {disfmarker} maybe you can carry on uh Matthew.
User Interface: Also {vocalsound} so you have uh uh browsing the channels, actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so you can go up and down the channels,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: uh, if you have a video or something you can forward, back.
Industrial Designer: How can you change from V_C_R_ to uh T_V_, by the way?
User Interface: Oh {gap} no no no, this is a single {disfmarker} this this is a model with just the T_V_ one.
Industrial Designer: Okay yeah. Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Ah, okay.
User Interface: No no just sorry, this is a standard T_V_ one, we are not talking about that. So and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: The extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel. And the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that. Actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay so
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: it's it's t a very basic remote then, it's only {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a very basic minimal thing
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: which you can {disfmarker} which is which is also available in the market, actually that's what it {gap} {disfmarker} that it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and would cost us to build it about eight Euros.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Seven, eight, ei eight Euros.
Project Manager: Exce except for the for the special shape, the surfing board, it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: So this one model
Marketing: Can I see?
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Sure.
Marketing: Thanks. Okay I like the volume control, that's good.
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Th {vocalsound} this is a magic one but I know we don't want to talk about that,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you know like {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic, it's like uh it's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future, it can come.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it doesn't actually have buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} So that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} then what we look t
Marketing: Did you wanna see?
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Yeah no you can carry on,
User Interface: This is a model,
Project Manager: I just look how it feels all.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Just I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah actually, yeah.
Project Manager: I really want to talk to it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It won't talk back. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So but but continue with your uh
User Interface: Uh so well
Project Manager: mm-hmm.
User Interface: then the this is the {vocalsound} a more a little uh smooth
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: and it gives a lot of functionality, uh in this way, so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys, but don't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here.
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: And so they have more space actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh it's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh {gap} uh infrared eye, and then you have a power button, which l volume, what you have,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo
Industrial Designer: Play, pause.
User Interface: yeah s pause or stop, and uh then uh you can uh you have a L_C_D_ display, here
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it's a toggle switch which could change the function say, y you press it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: From D_V_D_ player to television or something.
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah. To audio and to video on demand.
User Interface: Yeah. I really can change it,
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Instead of having many switches, y {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yes and and and then you get feedback via the L_C_D_ yeah.
User Interface: The L_C_D_ can display what is that on that,
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here,
Industrial Designer: This is the orange button, the {vocalsound} microphone.
User Interface: or in the button th here,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display.
Industrial Designer: An yeah.
User Interface: And here is a small L_E_D_ which is like blinking one,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery, and which is can be useful for the locating as I was talking earlier
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: okay. And uh well then we have a cover basically, basically you don't need much of the time this,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} when you need you can use it, and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover
Project Manager: Mm. Yeah
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Crazy dis designer,
User Interface: you know.
Industrial Designer: okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Design enter {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed, will it also uh cover up the L_C_D_ screen?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. It's basically to do that.
Project Manager: But but the L_C_D_ screen I mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which shouldn't be shouldn't be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Actually when you are watching the T_V_, {vocalsound} when you are watching anything or listening to them, you hardly care about what is getting displayed here,
Industrial Designer: Oh actually {disfmarker} well.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That th that's true.
User Interface: you know, uh you want to uh {disfmarker} and this gives a protection to the L_C_D_ actually, giving a cover to that actually. Gives a protection
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, more robust.
User Interface: it's more robust that way. Uh yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yes okay.
User Interface: And you have very good chances {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's low weight. You have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So the the cost is actually a bit more, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's sixteen Francs.
User Interface: It {disfmarker} Sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Sixteen Euros sorry.
Marketing: So it's well outside the budget then.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then it's out of budget.
Project Manager: But w
Industrial Designer: But the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer. And they say basically that the S_R_ system would be uh something like three Francs per item {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so
User Interface: Three Euros.
Industrial Designer: three Euros sorry. And um {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's on top of the sixteen, or is it part of that?
Industrial Designer: No no no, part of that, yeah.
User Interface: Part of that {gap}.
Marketing: So that takes it down to thirteen Euros without the speech recognition.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm'kay. Hmm. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Well uh if you {disfmarker} we can have {disfmarker} if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well I think th th yeah we should {vocalsound} stick with uh a number of keys
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: because if we add too much then
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {gap}.
Industrial Designer: it's too {disfmarker}
User Interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything.
Marketing: What's this one on the side?
User Interface: Ah that's for the {disfmarker} it's kind of a L_E_D_ for indicating your battery
Industrial Designer: Locati. Location.
Marketing: Ah okay.
User Interface: and as well as it's like a blinking one
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm'kay.
User Interface: you know
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: you can keep it aside.
Marketing: I like the shape of them, I do like the the size and the the shape.
Project Manager: Well well {disfmarker} Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Be before ta talking about the money and what's possible and what is not possible, maybe Anna you can uh give our uh give us your um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Okay. And maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products, both of these two.
Project Manager: Yes. Evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria, so what what is important to look at.
Marketing: Okay. {vocalsound} Basically this is what we've talked about already, um, from the marketing point of view.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: We just wanna make sure that we've taken into account {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: just do it quickly if if we al already {gap}.
Marketing: So it's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we've identified as being important to selling the product.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we'll make an evaluation based on that, so just average the score of those items, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} These are the things we identified as being important. Um {gap} the three things were look and feel, innovation and ease of use, were the three important components
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic. And then goin following the company motto, following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well. So well do you wanna go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wanna discuss them further and then evaluate them?
Project Manager: Um, n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now, {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. So f just go through onto the whiteboard I guess. Not sure how this is gonna come out. So the first one was really {vocalsound} very far below budget, would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it?'Cause if we're only going to make it for eight Euros then we have a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm, well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight Euros we must think how can we improve it.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And then {disfmarker} I mean w w w you must just see it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we can still spend this four and a half Euro
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Project Manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five Euros
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so we just have to offer as much as as {disfmarker} well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five Euro.
Industrial Designer: Functionality.
Marketing: Okay so look and feel, innovation {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: And now it {gap} easy to use.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Easy to use.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {gap} target.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. And trends. Oh, you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these? Is that part of both of them or?
Project Manager: Um well w w we can still discuss that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: So um, and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: I mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: but um I've received uh a framework which we can do this. I mean did you have this this Excel sheet?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No okay, this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve Euro uh fifty cents uh.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Project Manager: So maybe we can start with this, uh, calling this one. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. Yep. So it's the pink.
Project Manager: Th th this is the first design.
Marketing: And the other one's green. Okay, so
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: look and feel? Where um one is {vocalsound} I've broken the pen again. S
Project Manager: Uh there is another pen.
Marketing: yeah. Get that one. Um w {vocalsound} one's bad and seven's the best. Sorry, one's true and seven's false. One's the best.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: So on a scale of one to seven?
Project Manager:'Kay. Okay. So. Look and feel. Well you already feel that uh pretty much I think {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: In i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good, is very good in your hand,
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so I I I would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: But that's just half, we should also consider look,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and then i it looks quite conventional.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Don't you agree?
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Marketing: On the scale u it's between functional and fancy basically we're looking at,
Project Manager: So maybe two. Hmm. Hmm. Ma ma ma ma maybe say say five
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} It's my opinion, but I don't know what what
User Interface: Well I will give it maybe {disfmarker} we have anyways {disfmarker} the way we have designed it's like the surf as you say {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: you know. It {disfmarker} though the look is fine but uh still I will give four in that case
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Four maybe.
User Interface: you know.
Marketing: Four? Okay.
Project Manager: Four, four.
User Interface: Four yeah
Project Manager: Now we th th
User Interface: that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: then we settle on four.
User Interface: Yeah. I will gi yeah.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager:'Kay. Can you maybe fix the other {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: If you press like this not like this {gap} then you {disfmarker}
Marketing: No that's the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: No.
Marketing: ink's dried.
User Interface: C can you get the batteries? No no the battery has fallen down,
Marketing: Battery's low, isn't it the ink?
User Interface: that's i
Marketing: The b that's the that that one?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {gap} battery there.
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no it's not that, it's how to close a battery.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Okay? Now it should be {gap}.
Marketing: Mm. No I think it's lost a battery.
Project Manager: Mm, try it, just try it.
Marketing: No it's {disfmarker} It would still write
Project Manager: Oh it will not
Marketing: but it wouldn't pick it up with the sensors.
Project Manager: ri mm, mm.
User Interface: Is there another battery there? Oh yeah.
Marketing: You got a second?
Industrial Designer: Try a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well we won't be able to tell.
Project Manager: Yes, it it has a {disfmarker} mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Perfect.
Marketing: Is that working?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Did it come out? Good. Okay.
Project Manager: Good. Good.
Marketing: Because we'll be able to see it still even if it wasn't working, it's just a normal whiteboard marker
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Marketing: but it wouldn't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay. So then then {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the other one?
Industrial Designer: Wow.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it's slightly better, um,
Project Manager: Ah. Mm.
Marketing: it's hard to tell from just the plasticine,
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: When we want to include {disfmarker} I I I'm doubting about this this component.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: It it it it breaks in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer:'Kay
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: No actually this is this is not going to protrude actually,
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: it it's n i it is jus
Industrial Designer: It's not a button it's a led, it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a led actually which which'll be covering in a curve {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ac actually yeah it should be embedded.
Project Manager: Mm, yes I see, mm okay.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} will be embedded there
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Oh
User Interface: so it won't be really you know protruding or something.
Industrial Designer: you can push push it again, you can push it.
Marketing: Yeah. The other thing is, is the left hand one protruding?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing:'Cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand,
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: maybe it won't work so well.
User Interface: No you {disfmarker} it it not protruding actually, it will go in better into that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Well r r
Marketing: I'd say two or three for that one, personally.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Probably more towards three than two.
Project Manager: I think the look is better
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but the feel is is is worse. So so {vocalsound} I would also say this is four.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: But w w do you {disfmarker} what do you think?
User Interface: Uh it's fine I think. My {disfmarker} just that um the feel is that um you {disfmarker} right now you you don't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this, now it's embedded one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Yes.
User Interface: This is how embedded one will {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes, it basically is the same shape.
User Interface: Yeah. It's a bas basically the same thing actually.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm.
User Interface: You will be {disfmarker} Except that in this c
Industrial Designer: And the L_C_D_ makes it better. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: And {vocalsound} you might have a slight thing for to forward and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm, okay. Yeah
Industrial Designer: So I will say two.
Marketing: it's d it's definitely more fancier than that one.
Project Manager: Yes, okay {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: I would say two, three.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So, consensus? Two or three?
Project Manager: Two?
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Mm. Two's good
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: yes.
User Interface: {gap} looking like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um,'kay. Innovation. The first one, not really muc
Industrial Designer: Basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market,
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: right?
Marketing: Do we {disfmarker}
User Interface: No but except for the design of the surf {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. The surf uh design {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: What {disfmarker} What features are we actually including?
User Interface: You should be rea {vocalsound}
Marketing: Are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh no
Marketing: There's nothing like that?
User Interface: I think it's more of the feel.
Marketing: But th is there any there's no actual innovation in that at all, it's just a straight-out remote control.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: The only innova innovation is the shape.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap}.
User Interface: Say about that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: S so that {disfmarker}
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} this uh look and feel thing, though that's not a technological innovation.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. You're right {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So I'd be up for seven for innovation.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And the {disfmarker} And the second one is really uh state of the art, uh in terms of innovation.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: And um with many more functionalities, and can open and close the the bottom part.
User Interface: Yeah, it gives it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes. A and the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's that's that's well it's quite innovative.
Industrial Designer: And all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh could put it at one or two I would say. Personally.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.
User Interface: Yep.
Marketing: So what is it, what are the innovations with this? Got the L_C_D_ screen.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah automatic speech recognition.
Marketing: Is that in this one though? Is this {disfmarker}'cause this is the {disfmarker} Th th there were different options we discussed then,
User Interface: No, we ha
Marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget.
Project Manager: We just diske discuss it as you designed it
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So the cost for these were {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: what was the cost for the first one? Eight Euros?
Project Manager: Eight.
Industrial Designer: Eight. Well actually we have yeah to check again yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, eight Euros yeah.
Marketing: And this one was sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Sixteen.
User Interface: Sixteen Euros.
Marketing: Okay. So. Innovation for this one is two? One?
User Interface: It's a two, I would say two {gap}.
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Two.
Industrial Designer: W W un to be one what would do we nee actually, yeah, I don't see {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why it is one.
Industrial Designer: okay, one would would be without buttons, {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A man {disfmarker} w w
Marketing: Mm. Well
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation I believe it,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: so {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So maybe we can put one.
Project Manager: This this is it w with the speech recognition?
Industrial Designer: It's using speech recognition, yeah.
Project Manager: Well.
User Interface: Okay yeah.
Project Manager: Gi given that {vocalsound} that it works,
Marketing: Give it a one?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, one, yeah.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then it's I think one.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Ease of use?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So the first one is really standard,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it,
User Interface: He is used to it act
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: right?
User Interface: They are used to it actually.
Marketing: Yep. So that's maybe a a two for ease of use.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Here there may {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um, the other one is quite easy, tho though.
User Interface: Uh, though it has more functionality I think it shouldn't be for the user to learn it actually. It shouldn't be diffi
Marketing: Okay. So maybe a three or a four.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Uh yeah, actually in fact I think it will be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: One me um we hope {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah but {vocalsound} y
Industrial Designer: And there is a {disfmarker} like I would say three. Or maybe four {gap}.
Marketing: Okay. Consensus? Three or four?
User Interface: Well we have reduced the keys actually you see.
Project Manager: Three, I would. Three.
Marketing: Three? Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah
User Interface: Three is fine with me.
Industrial Designer: because it's n uh it's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so, {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do {disfmarker} use that actually,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: it's not so easy, like this one the normal.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yes but then when when he is used to it, i i it is quite easy.
User Interface: Is quite easy yeah.
Project Manager: So so I think th three is good. Yeah.
User Interface: Initially there there is a lot of effort, yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Good.
Marketing: So three's
Project Manager: What's the next?
Marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic. So we're d we're still thinking twenty to forty year olds?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Twe twenty to forty, yes that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: This one would be uh for grandmothers {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no, this would I
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: I would I would give this model to the old people actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, grandmothers, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So sh completely changed our demographic there,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: it's not part of the the funky young thing.
Project Manager: Well exce except for the surfing shape. I mean that's that's something which which has an appeal on this group I think,
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's true. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. If it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then I can imagine it being {disfmarker} applying to the the demographic
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: yeah. That's {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Ye
Project Manager: Mm w w w we {disfmarker} after this we can can consider uh for instance, making this more attractive to to the demographic
Marketing: Mm.'Cause we have got room, we've got some budget there to add a few things to it,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: that's right.
Project Manager: But as it is now, I w would say mm, six, something.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Oh yeah, {gap}.
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you agree?
User Interface: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah because it's so important {disfmarker} it's i it was written that it really so important, the um the the look and uh taking care of its {disfmarker} it targets, the right range of people,
User Interface: Well I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: right?
User Interface: Yeah. Uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it's going to be cheap, actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But it's going to be cheap whatever though,
Industrial Designer: But w
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: it was set with i we've got a set price.
User Interface: And people can still decide to use the cheaper one
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: instead of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But for us it's {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound} we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five Euros.
Project Manager: Mm, yeah, indeed.
Marketing: Yeah. There's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few Euros on that one rather than another one.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Ju just think, twenty five Euros, I mean it's not going to be cheaper.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay. So in that case well it's fine then.
Marketing: Okay. Um
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Okay.
User Interface: We can {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one?
User Interface: And the demographics of {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's got the got the the toys in it, it's got the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Yeah tha tha tha tha tha that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's better,
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: because of the L_C_D_ screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: on the {gap} and on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And if you want to target {disfmarker} yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this, I think for this audience we need absolutely the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm. So, the L_C_D_ screen uh attracts,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: yes.
Marketing: I think especially if we're gonna n have an L_C_D_ screen on a low range product then that's good.
Project Manager: Because it {disfmarker} Mm, ma maybe that's something to consider, yes {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm. Okay.
Project Manager: so. Wh what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'd probably go with three again for that one.
User Interface: Yeah I think it's uh {disfmarker} it has more market actually.
Industrial Designer: Or even {disfmarker} Even one and two. Or two.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: No s say t two.
User Interface: Y yeah, you know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. So, two, yeah?
User Interface: two.
Project Manager: Two?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Two yeah.
User Interface: Yeah two yeah. Because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add {vocalsound} lot of sophistication on that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include
Marketing: Yeah. Yep. And especially I guess'cause this has the speech recognition as well,
User Interface: for the people to {disfmarker}
Marketing: and that makes it more appealing, it's more of a a new fun toy.
User Interface: We have to practically test it.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: The field test will tell you how good. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay, the final point, trends.
Marketing: And following the trends.
User Interface: The trends.
Marketing: So the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: So as it is, not really doing either of them.
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Spongy, uh, that means that it goes in in the water. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: I know some {disfmarker} have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and {disfmarker} not not exactly spongy but I'm thinking one of the Nokias that's got like you ca it hasn't got individual buttons
Industrial Designer: Uh okay.
Marketing: it's got just a one bit on it
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah I know.
Marketing: and so you can {disfmarker} that feels kinda spongy.
Industrial Designer: But this one includes this feature, right? Spongy buttons.
Marketing: So it's sort of, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. We we we we we yeah, it's the way they are going to be, actually.
Marketing: Mm. Okay.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Uh
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie.
Marketing: But that's if you're using the covers.
Project Manager: And the then we can al
Marketing: Or is it just one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: yes. We can {disfmarker} we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think, to to make a cover for s such a phone? I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well they make it for mobiles, it can't be that much more complicated.
User Interface: But why do you want to cover that actually? In that uh w in the mod
Project Manager: Well just with the with the flexible plastic uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you got the option of having different colours or different textures.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. This is possible.
Project Manager: I th I th I think {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh uh y are you sure? Yeah I think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone, yeah.
Project Manager: O o or just two things which can be put on each other.
Marketing: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly like Nokia phones {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes, exactly like it.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Uh, so Maybe we can {vocalsound} but we have to decide it, we can put the the {vocalsound} the fancy f look of vegetables for instance, to to these covers
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features.
Marketing: I think the {disfmarker} if we do the cover that's really going with the company's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics, it lets people have the latest fashion
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out, you'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it'll still be in fashion.
Project Manager: Mm mm mm mm mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.'Cause sometimes look at this computer, th this laptop, it's all black,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and uh it's quite conventional, and sometimes people don't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here.
Marketing: Mm. Mm.
Industrial Designer: So maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one, very standard one, that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things.
Marketing: Mm. Yep.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yep. Mm.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm.
Marketing: And then you have the option of having the different colours, different covers.
Project Manager: Yes. So so so that that would make the trends equal,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: so we we we really have {disfmarker} don't have,
Marketing: Mm. There's n yeah.'Cause that's the that's the feature that could be included in either of them.
Project Manager: I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one.
Project Manager: Yes, indeed.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, so a a point better for the for the number two {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Okay. So. Two and three, or one and two?
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah, it's one.
Project Manager: Say, say one and two. One and two.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: So le le let's see. So d
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: this one has spongy but buttons?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, the blue one uh spongy.
User Interface: Yeah, it says a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm, I see, yes okay. Good.
Marketing: Okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five, so five {disfmarker} mm nine by five, one point s eight?
Project Manager: Just add it.
Industrial Designer: Nine.
Project Manager: You know. Three, six, seven.
User Interface: One point six, one point {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: One point eight yeah.
Marketing: This one, eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one, divided by five is four point two
User Interface: Four point {disfmarker} Uh four point two.
Marketing: yep.
Industrial Designer: Very good.
Marketing: Okay. But we still got a very different price for those two so they're not really comparable yet anyway.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. We {disfmarker} we must try to get them closer.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's right, yeah that's right.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep.
Project Manager: Both in i i
User Interface: Wow.
Project Manager: or we just have to choose. And adapt.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Because, when we choose for this one we have to {vocalsound} we have to make it more attractive
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and w when we {gap} to d for this one we have to make it more cheap.
Marketing: Well it's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes, well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: That'll basically take us down to the budget.
Project Manager: But I'm {vocalsound} now {disfmarker} did y did you work with the same prices that I have here?
Industrial Designer: So I I give yeah I just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh I explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen Fr Euros.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh unfortunately we didn't see this chip, uh Matthew,
User Interface: Yeah. Yep.
Project Manager: Mm, tha
Industrial Designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one.
User Interface: Maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this, yeah.
Project Manager: Well yes, well uh re reconsider it. So {vocalsound} let's let's try to to model this this phone in this sheet,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: uh what kind of energy source uh I I {disfmarker} we didn't speak about that. It's a {disfmarker} it's a normal battery, or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, it migh It {disfmarker} it'll need uh more than a conventional one, it won't be uh just {disfmarker} maybe you might use a A_A_ battery actually. What do you say, Mael?
Industrial Designer: For this one it's a normal battery {gap}.
Project Manager: Yes. Just so one battery.'Kay. Electronics. {gap} given speech recognition I think w you should go for the less fancy chip.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh sample speaker, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, yes, or sample sensor, yes.
Industrial Designer: Sample, yeah, this one.
Project Manager: Yes, this one. Okay. Case? Um,
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Curved. Double curved yeah right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I see {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Double curve.
Marketing: Yeah, it's gonna be more than just the biggest case, definitely.
Project Manager: {gap} Mm.
Industrial Designer: So which one are we talking to?
User Interface: Are you talking about this or that?
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Either of them.
Project Manager: Oh yes, we are talking about, but they have the same shape,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm. They're both going to be not basic cases.
Project Manager: but, actually bu
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So th th this would be double curves?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay. Uh, plastic would be the material.
Marketing: Yeah. The basic one, yep.
Industrial Designer: Is it zero Franc? {vocalsound}
User Interface: A special colour? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh special colour, now we leave it to the covers.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So now we're either going button or L_C_D_s, L_C_D_ display.
Project Manager: Push. Mm, yes, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_ is {gap}. It's okay. Just say L_C_D_ {gap}.
Marketing: Is that price per unit, or for the whole thing?
Project Manager: Yeah th now this is per per unit, this number of components.
User Interface: Ah good.
Marketing: So it would need twelve buttons.
User Interface: Yeah, we might need a scroll wheel, right, for that?
Industrial Designer: No but for this one it's twelve Euro.
User Interface: No, for that one also.
Industrial Designer: There are twelve?
Project Manager: So, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
User Interface: Yeah that's a scroll.
Project Manager: t Yes. Twelve I believe. So this comes to eighteen.
Marketing: Mm. And that's without any special button supplements.
User Interface: Yeah, one scroll wheel you might need.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we'd have a special colour, special form and special material on all of them. They're not just standard buttons.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I think {disfmarker} but th do you agree th that thi
Industrial Designer: Wait a minute, it's not it's not double curved, it's single curved, right? Because it's {disfmarker} there is no like {vocalsound}.
Marketing: But I thought it would be curved on two {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes I
Marketing: it's like it's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well, that's what I thought.
Project Manager: Yes I'm I'm no I'm no I'm not sh sure.
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: Yes I kno undes I understand what you mean, yes.
Industrial Designer: it's {gap} you know this curve like this so, it's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are {disfmarker}
Marketing: You talking about concave curves?
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: yeah concave.
Project Manager: Both.
Industrial Designer: So I think we can put um {disfmarker}
Marketing: You think a single curved?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} the single curved in the sixteen. That makes uh seventeen. And what are just {disfmarker} The bt buttons, we have twelve buttons, are you sure? Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yes. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: We have more, we've got those {disfmarker} the scroll wheel on the side
Industrial Designer: So
Marketing: and yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I had a bad uh bad estimation.
User Interface: Bad estimate,
Marketing: The sc
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} d {vocalsound}
User Interface: right?
Project Manager: we have {disfmarker} we haven't talk about a {gap}, but that's no a {gap} is very exp inexpensive I believe
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: but it is not in the list.
Marketing: We've got a scroll wheel for the volume don't we, or is it some other thing that's not on there.
Project Manager: W ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no.
Marketing:'Kay we've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast.
Industrial Designer: Yes, a kind of scroll wheel.
Marketing: So this is even more than the um than the cost you gave, the sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Okay,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so based on that, yeah, um where is the es okay sample speaker {disfmarker}
User Interface: That is the sample sensor and sample speaker.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But still, yeah it {gap}
User Interface: We just need that actually. We need one.
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} We could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip, but then we can't have the the speech recognition, yes? Yes?
Industrial Designer: No we cannot, yeah.
Project Manager: So so w when we w a
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: S
Project Manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition.
Industrial Designer: But the um {disfmarker} Yeah but if you have the {disfmarker} near the L_C_D_ you can um {vocalsound} choose {disfmarker} select between um you know like uni universal between audio, T_V_ and V_C_R_, and this needs a needs a advanced chip.
Project Manager: Transti
Industrial Designer: Right, Matthew?
User Interface: Oh I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or regular chip?
User Interface: I think it's going to be {disfmarker} y y
Industrial Designer: I think yeah regular, today we you can do that with regular chip.
User Interface: yeah it's th with the regular chip, yeah.
Project Manager: Say {gap} say it's regular, regular chip,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: and we still on fifteen,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So. And what about the number of buttons buttons uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my Matthew?
Project Manager: Yes but that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} Well we can just say
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: one.
Industrial Designer: When you look at this w, this u uh item, {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Ca l we are just {disfmarker} when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty.
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So is it possible?
Marketing: {vocalsound} But that's seven basic buttons right, seven buttons without any adds-on, without special colours or form or material.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: That'll be {disfmarker} then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times.
Industrial Designer: You cannot make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really {vocalsound} really low,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no,
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: he he he I I
Industrial Designer: no?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {gap} the L_C_D_ display is is three Francs, sorry three Euros, by itself.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And uh we don't want to to change that right? We we really want a L_C_D_
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market.
Project Manager: Otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this.
Industrial Designer: It's evident.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So twelve Euro fifty, we got two off of the battery,
Industrial Designer: And I dunno {disfmarker}
Marketing: we can't do anything about that, so ten fifty, if we want an L_C_D_ dispra display, that's seven fifty um, so we've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons. And the chip.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Sorry the chip's up there already.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Marketing: So we're gonna have to scale this down to get within budget, there's no doubt about that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A
Industrial Designer: So wha what what each of us think about the {disfmarker} because it's measure point the L_C_D_, um {disfmarker} Do you think it's important?
User Interface: Or we could even replace them by buttons actually.
Industrial Designer: Because sometimes whe when you watch the T_V_ in fact, you have a big display and maybe you don't need one more in your hands? I dunno, I'm just asking.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: A actually it depends, it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it,
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons, or {disfmarker} and you'll have L_C_D_ display which is {disfmarker} that is going to bring the cost by two two Euros at least.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah. I think, unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the L_C_D_ display.
User Interface: Okay so we can get rid of it
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's true yeah.
User Interface: and then add a couple of buttons.
Industrial Designer: But uh, do we want that? On the market point of view, yeah. What do you think uh, L_C_D_ is a major feature, or?
Project Manager: Mm. I
Marketing: For the price, it's gonna be what we can afford, and it's looking like we can't afford the L_C_D_ display, there's no way we can get it in there. {vocalsound} Mm.
Project Manager: I {gap} think we have to come to a decision now, just I I think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the L_C_D_ uh display
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You assume, you want a democratic voyt vote,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: right? Okay.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes. {vocalsound} One man one vote.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S so who thinks the the L_C_D_ disply display should be i should be in it?
Marketing: I th I'd like t it to be in but I can't see it happening. I can't see it fitting in.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We need to be. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bu y you're a power voter {disfmarker} uh veto anyway as Project Manager.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, I know, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that.
Marketing: {gap} well we have to make a decision now, that's it.
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh uh having an L_C_D_ s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons. Is that acceptable? Ca can I have {disfmarker} can the functions be implement in an {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: You've {disfmarker} you you agree.
User Interface: W I I I just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So hav hav having seven buttons, instead of twelve.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here. Here one, at the middle, and at the bottom.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm. I think then we we're really losing ease of use.
Industrial Designer: Okay, {gap}.
User Interface: That will create another problem. For the people to use it. It's not going to be easy. Doing that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Mm. So um
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I I think we should we should cut the L_C_D_ screen. That that's that's my opinion.
User Interface: No, it's okay, you uh cut the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
User Interface: and introduce two more buttons.
Marketing: Okay. So L_C_D_'s out, is speech rec out now? We've {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The speech recognition is out. Because of the budget, yeah.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Uh where, L_C_ {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay w we now we can just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So are we basically back to the original one now, back to the first version? Which turns out to be on budget exactly, pretty much. With these new costings.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: So {gap} just look at {disfmarker} forget that one and look at that one now.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes. I th I th I think w we just go for this one
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: and that that now twelve Euros is the is is the price,
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: okay.
Marketing: Okay. Well that's that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: My m my supervisor will be glad that it's fifty cents cheaper than he expected.
Marketing: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Actually yeah,
Marketing: So.
Industrial Designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount, yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yep. So w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment.
Project Manager: Okay, good. Then we {gap} the same. Thank you.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: That was it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks.
User Interface: That's it. Cool.
Marketing: Okay. | Both the devices had the special shape, like the surf-board. The first prototype was a pretty simple design with LCD display and an on-off button in red. It was easy to use and could only be used for the TV mode. After all, the team concluded that it was a standard design except for its special shape that made it look adorable. On the contrary, the second prototype was advanced in its speech recognition function and looked like a fashion mobile phone. It came with six key buttons and one orange one for the microphone. If the user would like a speech recognition and a lot of information on the channel could be displayed directly on LCD display. Also, the components for the two designs were low in weight and there was LED to indicate the battery usage, making it convenient to use. To conclude, Marketing fancied the second one's size and shape. | qmsum |
How did Marketing design the product evaluation?
Marketing: Did you get my email with the slides? Ah. Tricky.
Industrial Designer: I guess I have to change the pen otherwise. Will be completely different.
Marketing: Dunno. Maybe they're supposed {disfmarker} the pen's supposed to go over the seats. Might be seat floor rather than person. Yeah, put it back.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And do you think {vocalsound} it's {gap}.
Marketing: Yep {vocalsound}. Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Jo's making faces at me. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So. Matthew is uh late again.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably an important man. Um. So well it is important for him to be here uh.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: He he he {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So what can you {disfmarker} {gap}?
Project Manager: You did work together didn't you?
Industrial Designer: Yeah we will {disfmarker} yeah, so I will be able to to summarize uh our meeting,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: but still I think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer. I think we can put on the {gap} here.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items.
Project Manager: Mm. Um yes
Industrial Designer: Um, can we have a phone,
Project Manager: but w we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: can someone {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes, maybe we should phone him. Um well {disfmarker} Um,
Industrial Designer: it's really w well designed {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm. Mm, object tracking. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue. Um so just for record I I will take uh notes again.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: And um well {vocalsound} first thing uh I was uh uh I got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Project Manager: when you stay in it's good, when you don't stay in you have to redesign. There is no {vocalsound} uh no negotiation uh {vocalsound} possible in this matter. So we have to consider that. {vocalsound} Good.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Um so maybe Anna, you can have your presentation.
Marketing: Well we can't {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} we can't do evaluation'til we have a design.
Project Manager: Okay Matthew. Nice uh you are here.
Industrial Designer: Great.
Project Manager: Great. Great. Oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs.
Industrial Designer: Yep. So I will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight Euros actually, right, seven eight Euros,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape, maybe the designer can uh explain better than me, but uh it's like a surf board.
Marketing: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: And you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf T_V_, maybe the web, and uh it's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf {vocalsound} when they see this stuff.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Or browse.
Industrial Designer: And also it's not too far from um a mobile.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: So people are used to that kind of shape,
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: right. Don't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we don't take {disfmarker}
User Interface: Now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now.
Industrial Designer: yeah. So here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Eye.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah L_A_ L_A_ L_E_D_,
User Interface: L_E_D_.
Industrial Designer: the on-off button, in red.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Here would be the volume. On the on the left,
Marketing: Oh yeah.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: okay, so {gap}
User Interface: Mm-hmm, hmm.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: easy to turn on t and off. And um so this is a very cheap version so there are {disfmarker} maybe you can carry on uh Matthew.
User Interface: Also {vocalsound} so you have uh uh browsing the channels, actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so you can go up and down the channels,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: uh, if you have a video or something you can forward, back.
Industrial Designer: How can you change from V_C_R_ to uh T_V_, by the way?
User Interface: Oh {gap} no no no, this is a single {disfmarker} this this is a model with just the T_V_ one.
Industrial Designer: Okay yeah. Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Ah, okay.
User Interface: No no just sorry, this is a standard T_V_ one, we are not talking about that. So and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: The extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel. And the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that. Actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay so
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: it's it's t a very basic remote then, it's only {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a very basic minimal thing
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: which you can {disfmarker} which is which is also available in the market, actually that's what it {gap} {disfmarker} that it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and would cost us to build it about eight Euros.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Seven, eight, ei eight Euros.
Project Manager: Exce except for the for the special shape, the surfing board, it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: So this one model
Marketing: Can I see?
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Sure.
Marketing: Thanks. Okay I like the volume control, that's good.
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Th {vocalsound} this is a magic one but I know we don't want to talk about that,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you know like {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic, it's like uh it's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future, it can come.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it doesn't actually have buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} So that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} then what we look t
Marketing: Did you wanna see?
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Yeah no you can carry on,
User Interface: This is a model,
Project Manager: I just look how it feels all.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Just I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah actually, yeah.
Project Manager: I really want to talk to it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It won't talk back. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So but but continue with your uh
User Interface: Uh so well
Project Manager: mm-hmm.
User Interface: then the this is the {vocalsound} a more a little uh smooth
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: and it gives a lot of functionality, uh in this way, so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys, but don't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here.
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: And so they have more space actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh it's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh {gap} uh infrared eye, and then you have a power button, which l volume, what you have,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo
Industrial Designer: Play, pause.
User Interface: yeah s pause or stop, and uh then uh you can uh you have a L_C_D_ display, here
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it's a toggle switch which could change the function say, y you press it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: From D_V_D_ player to television or something.
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah. To audio and to video on demand.
User Interface: Yeah. I really can change it,
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Instead of having many switches, y {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yes and and and then you get feedback via the L_C_D_ yeah.
User Interface: The L_C_D_ can display what is that on that,
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here,
Industrial Designer: This is the orange button, the {vocalsound} microphone.
User Interface: or in the button th here,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display.
Industrial Designer: An yeah.
User Interface: And here is a small L_E_D_ which is like blinking one,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery, and which is can be useful for the locating as I was talking earlier
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: okay. And uh well then we have a cover basically, basically you don't need much of the time this,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} when you need you can use it, and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover
Project Manager: Mm. Yeah
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Crazy dis designer,
User Interface: you know.
Industrial Designer: okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Design enter {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed, will it also uh cover up the L_C_D_ screen?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. It's basically to do that.
Project Manager: But but the L_C_D_ screen I mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which shouldn't be shouldn't be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Actually when you are watching the T_V_, {vocalsound} when you are watching anything or listening to them, you hardly care about what is getting displayed here,
Industrial Designer: Oh actually {disfmarker} well.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That th that's true.
User Interface: you know, uh you want to uh {disfmarker} and this gives a protection to the L_C_D_ actually, giving a cover to that actually. Gives a protection
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, more robust.
User Interface: it's more robust that way. Uh yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yes okay.
User Interface: And you have very good chances {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's low weight. You have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So the the cost is actually a bit more, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's sixteen Francs.
User Interface: It {disfmarker} Sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Sixteen Euros sorry.
Marketing: So it's well outside the budget then.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then it's out of budget.
Project Manager: But w
Industrial Designer: But the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer. And they say basically that the S_R_ system would be uh something like three Francs per item {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so
User Interface: Three Euros.
Industrial Designer: three Euros sorry. And um {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's on top of the sixteen, or is it part of that?
Industrial Designer: No no no, part of that, yeah.
User Interface: Part of that {gap}.
Marketing: So that takes it down to thirteen Euros without the speech recognition.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm'kay. Hmm. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Well uh if you {disfmarker} we can have {disfmarker} if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well I think th th yeah we should {vocalsound} stick with uh a number of keys
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: because if we add too much then
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {gap}.
Industrial Designer: it's too {disfmarker}
User Interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything.
Marketing: What's this one on the side?
User Interface: Ah that's for the {disfmarker} it's kind of a L_E_D_ for indicating your battery
Industrial Designer: Locati. Location.
Marketing: Ah okay.
User Interface: and as well as it's like a blinking one
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm'kay.
User Interface: you know
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: you can keep it aside.
Marketing: I like the shape of them, I do like the the size and the the shape.
Project Manager: Well well {disfmarker} Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Be before ta talking about the money and what's possible and what is not possible, maybe Anna you can uh give our uh give us your um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Okay. And maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products, both of these two.
Project Manager: Yes. Evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria, so what what is important to look at.
Marketing: Okay. {vocalsound} Basically this is what we've talked about already, um, from the marketing point of view.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: We just wanna make sure that we've taken into account {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: just do it quickly if if we al already {gap}.
Marketing: So it's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we've identified as being important to selling the product.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we'll make an evaluation based on that, so just average the score of those items, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} These are the things we identified as being important. Um {gap} the three things were look and feel, innovation and ease of use, were the three important components
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic. And then goin following the company motto, following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well. So well do you wanna go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wanna discuss them further and then evaluate them?
Project Manager: Um, n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now, {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. So f just go through onto the whiteboard I guess. Not sure how this is gonna come out. So the first one was really {vocalsound} very far below budget, would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it?'Cause if we're only going to make it for eight Euros then we have a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm, well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight Euros we must think how can we improve it.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And then {disfmarker} I mean w w w you must just see it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we can still spend this four and a half Euro
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Project Manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five Euros
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so we just have to offer as much as as {disfmarker} well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five Euro.
Industrial Designer: Functionality.
Marketing: Okay so look and feel, innovation {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: And now it {gap} easy to use.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Easy to use.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {gap} target.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. And trends. Oh, you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these? Is that part of both of them or?
Project Manager: Um well w w we can still discuss that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: So um, and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: I mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: but um I've received uh a framework which we can do this. I mean did you have this this Excel sheet?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No okay, this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve Euro uh fifty cents uh.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Project Manager: So maybe we can start with this, uh, calling this one. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. Yep. So it's the pink.
Project Manager: Th th this is the first design.
Marketing: And the other one's green. Okay, so
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: look and feel? Where um one is {vocalsound} I've broken the pen again. S
Project Manager: Uh there is another pen.
Marketing: yeah. Get that one. Um w {vocalsound} one's bad and seven's the best. Sorry, one's true and seven's false. One's the best.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: So on a scale of one to seven?
Project Manager:'Kay. Okay. So. Look and feel. Well you already feel that uh pretty much I think {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: In i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good, is very good in your hand,
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so I I I would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: But that's just half, we should also consider look,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and then i it looks quite conventional.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Don't you agree?
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Marketing: On the scale u it's between functional and fancy basically we're looking at,
Project Manager: So maybe two. Hmm. Hmm. Ma ma ma ma maybe say say five
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} It's my opinion, but I don't know what what
User Interface: Well I will give it maybe {disfmarker} we have anyways {disfmarker} the way we have designed it's like the surf as you say {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: you know. It {disfmarker} though the look is fine but uh still I will give four in that case
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Four maybe.
User Interface: you know.
Marketing: Four? Okay.
Project Manager: Four, four.
User Interface: Four yeah
Project Manager: Now we th th
User Interface: that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: then we settle on four.
User Interface: Yeah. I will gi yeah.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager:'Kay. Can you maybe fix the other {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: If you press like this not like this {gap} then you {disfmarker}
Marketing: No that's the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: No.
Marketing: ink's dried.
User Interface: C can you get the batteries? No no the battery has fallen down,
Marketing: Battery's low, isn't it the ink?
User Interface: that's i
Marketing: The b that's the that that one?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {gap} battery there.
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no it's not that, it's how to close a battery.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Okay? Now it should be {gap}.
Marketing: Mm. No I think it's lost a battery.
Project Manager: Mm, try it, just try it.
Marketing: No it's {disfmarker} It would still write
Project Manager: Oh it will not
Marketing: but it wouldn't pick it up with the sensors.
Project Manager: ri mm, mm.
User Interface: Is there another battery there? Oh yeah.
Marketing: You got a second?
Industrial Designer: Try a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well we won't be able to tell.
Project Manager: Yes, it it has a {disfmarker} mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Perfect.
Marketing: Is that working?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Did it come out? Good. Okay.
Project Manager: Good. Good.
Marketing: Because we'll be able to see it still even if it wasn't working, it's just a normal whiteboard marker
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Marketing: but it wouldn't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay. So then then {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the other one?
Industrial Designer: Wow.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it's slightly better, um,
Project Manager: Ah. Mm.
Marketing: it's hard to tell from just the plasticine,
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: When we want to include {disfmarker} I I I'm doubting about this this component.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: It it it it breaks in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer:'Kay
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: No actually this is this is not going to protrude actually,
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: it it's n i it is jus
Industrial Designer: It's not a button it's a led, it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a led actually which which'll be covering in a curve {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ac actually yeah it should be embedded.
Project Manager: Mm, yes I see, mm okay.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} will be embedded there
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Oh
User Interface: so it won't be really you know protruding or something.
Industrial Designer: you can push push it again, you can push it.
Marketing: Yeah. The other thing is, is the left hand one protruding?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing:'Cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand,
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: maybe it won't work so well.
User Interface: No you {disfmarker} it it not protruding actually, it will go in better into that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Well r r
Marketing: I'd say two or three for that one, personally.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Probably more towards three than two.
Project Manager: I think the look is better
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but the feel is is is worse. So so {vocalsound} I would also say this is four.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: But w w do you {disfmarker} what do you think?
User Interface: Uh it's fine I think. My {disfmarker} just that um the feel is that um you {disfmarker} right now you you don't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this, now it's embedded one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Yes.
User Interface: This is how embedded one will {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes, it basically is the same shape.
User Interface: Yeah. It's a bas basically the same thing actually.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm.
User Interface: You will be {disfmarker} Except that in this c
Industrial Designer: And the L_C_D_ makes it better. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: And {vocalsound} you might have a slight thing for to forward and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm, okay. Yeah
Industrial Designer: So I will say two.
Marketing: it's d it's definitely more fancier than that one.
Project Manager: Yes, okay {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: I would say two, three.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So, consensus? Two or three?
Project Manager: Two?
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Mm. Two's good
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: yes.
User Interface: {gap} looking like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um,'kay. Innovation. The first one, not really muc
Industrial Designer: Basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market,
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: right?
Marketing: Do we {disfmarker}
User Interface: No but except for the design of the surf {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. The surf uh design {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: What {disfmarker} What features are we actually including?
User Interface: You should be rea {vocalsound}
Marketing: Are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh no
Marketing: There's nothing like that?
User Interface: I think it's more of the feel.
Marketing: But th is there any there's no actual innovation in that at all, it's just a straight-out remote control.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: The only innova innovation is the shape.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap}.
User Interface: Say about that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: S so that {disfmarker}
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} this uh look and feel thing, though that's not a technological innovation.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. You're right {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So I'd be up for seven for innovation.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And the {disfmarker} And the second one is really uh state of the art, uh in terms of innovation.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: And um with many more functionalities, and can open and close the the bottom part.
User Interface: Yeah, it gives it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes. A and the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's that's that's well it's quite innovative.
Industrial Designer: And all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh could put it at one or two I would say. Personally.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.
User Interface: Yep.
Marketing: So what is it, what are the innovations with this? Got the L_C_D_ screen.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah automatic speech recognition.
Marketing: Is that in this one though? Is this {disfmarker}'cause this is the {disfmarker} Th th there were different options we discussed then,
User Interface: No, we ha
Marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget.
Project Manager: We just diske discuss it as you designed it
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So the cost for these were {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: what was the cost for the first one? Eight Euros?
Project Manager: Eight.
Industrial Designer: Eight. Well actually we have yeah to check again yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, eight Euros yeah.
Marketing: And this one was sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Sixteen.
User Interface: Sixteen Euros.
Marketing: Okay. So. Innovation for this one is two? One?
User Interface: It's a two, I would say two {gap}.
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Two.
Industrial Designer: W W un to be one what would do we nee actually, yeah, I don't see {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why it is one.
Industrial Designer: okay, one would would be without buttons, {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A man {disfmarker} w w
Marketing: Mm. Well
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation I believe it,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: so {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So maybe we can put one.
Project Manager: This this is it w with the speech recognition?
Industrial Designer: It's using speech recognition, yeah.
Project Manager: Well.
User Interface: Okay yeah.
Project Manager: Gi given that {vocalsound} that it works,
Marketing: Give it a one?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, one, yeah.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then it's I think one.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Ease of use?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So the first one is really standard,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it,
User Interface: He is used to it act
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: right?
User Interface: They are used to it actually.
Marketing: Yep. So that's maybe a a two for ease of use.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Here there may {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um, the other one is quite easy, tho though.
User Interface: Uh, though it has more functionality I think it shouldn't be for the user to learn it actually. It shouldn't be diffi
Marketing: Okay. So maybe a three or a four.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Uh yeah, actually in fact I think it will be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: One me um we hope {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah but {vocalsound} y
Industrial Designer: And there is a {disfmarker} like I would say three. Or maybe four {gap}.
Marketing: Okay. Consensus? Three or four?
User Interface: Well we have reduced the keys actually you see.
Project Manager: Three, I would. Three.
Marketing: Three? Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah
User Interface: Three is fine with me.
Industrial Designer: because it's n uh it's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so, {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do {disfmarker} use that actually,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: it's not so easy, like this one the normal.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yes but then when when he is used to it, i i it is quite easy.
User Interface: Is quite easy yeah.
Project Manager: So so I think th three is good. Yeah.
User Interface: Initially there there is a lot of effort, yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Good.
Marketing: So three's
Project Manager: What's the next?
Marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic. So we're d we're still thinking twenty to forty year olds?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Twe twenty to forty, yes that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: This one would be uh for grandmothers {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no, this would I
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: I would I would give this model to the old people actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, grandmothers, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So sh completely changed our demographic there,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: it's not part of the the funky young thing.
Project Manager: Well exce except for the surfing shape. I mean that's that's something which which has an appeal on this group I think,
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's true. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. If it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then I can imagine it being {disfmarker} applying to the the demographic
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: yeah. That's {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Ye
Project Manager: Mm w w w we {disfmarker} after this we can can consider uh for instance, making this more attractive to to the demographic
Marketing: Mm.'Cause we have got room, we've got some budget there to add a few things to it,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: that's right.
Project Manager: But as it is now, I w would say mm, six, something.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Oh yeah, {gap}.
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you agree?
User Interface: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah because it's so important {disfmarker} it's i it was written that it really so important, the um the the look and uh taking care of its {disfmarker} it targets, the right range of people,
User Interface: Well I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: right?
User Interface: Yeah. Uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it's going to be cheap, actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But it's going to be cheap whatever though,
Industrial Designer: But w
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: it was set with i we've got a set price.
User Interface: And people can still decide to use the cheaper one
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: instead of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But for us it's {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound} we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five Euros.
Project Manager: Mm, yeah, indeed.
Marketing: Yeah. There's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few Euros on that one rather than another one.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Ju just think, twenty five Euros, I mean it's not going to be cheaper.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay. So in that case well it's fine then.
Marketing: Okay. Um
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Okay.
User Interface: We can {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one?
User Interface: And the demographics of {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's got the got the the toys in it, it's got the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Yeah tha tha tha tha tha that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's better,
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: because of the L_C_D_ screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: on the {gap} and on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And if you want to target {disfmarker} yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this, I think for this audience we need absolutely the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm. So, the L_C_D_ screen uh attracts,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: yes.
Marketing: I think especially if we're gonna n have an L_C_D_ screen on a low range product then that's good.
Project Manager: Because it {disfmarker} Mm, ma maybe that's something to consider, yes {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm. Okay.
Project Manager: so. Wh what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'd probably go with three again for that one.
User Interface: Yeah I think it's uh {disfmarker} it has more market actually.
Industrial Designer: Or even {disfmarker} Even one and two. Or two.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: No s say t two.
User Interface: Y yeah, you know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. So, two, yeah?
User Interface: two.
Project Manager: Two?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Two yeah.
User Interface: Yeah two yeah. Because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add {vocalsound} lot of sophistication on that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include
Marketing: Yeah. Yep. And especially I guess'cause this has the speech recognition as well,
User Interface: for the people to {disfmarker}
Marketing: and that makes it more appealing, it's more of a a new fun toy.
User Interface: We have to practically test it.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: The field test will tell you how good. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay, the final point, trends.
Marketing: And following the trends.
User Interface: The trends.
Marketing: So the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: So as it is, not really doing either of them.
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Spongy, uh, that means that it goes in in the water. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: I know some {disfmarker} have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and {disfmarker} not not exactly spongy but I'm thinking one of the Nokias that's got like you ca it hasn't got individual buttons
Industrial Designer: Uh okay.
Marketing: it's got just a one bit on it
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah I know.
Marketing: and so you can {disfmarker} that feels kinda spongy.
Industrial Designer: But this one includes this feature, right? Spongy buttons.
Marketing: So it's sort of, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. We we we we we yeah, it's the way they are going to be, actually.
Marketing: Mm. Okay.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Uh
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie.
Marketing: But that's if you're using the covers.
Project Manager: And the then we can al
Marketing: Or is it just one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: yes. We can {disfmarker} we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think, to to make a cover for s such a phone? I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well they make it for mobiles, it can't be that much more complicated.
User Interface: But why do you want to cover that actually? In that uh w in the mod
Project Manager: Well just with the with the flexible plastic uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you got the option of having different colours or different textures.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. This is possible.
Project Manager: I th I th I think {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh uh y are you sure? Yeah I think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone, yeah.
Project Manager: O o or just two things which can be put on each other.
Marketing: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly like Nokia phones {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes, exactly like it.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Uh, so Maybe we can {vocalsound} but we have to decide it, we can put the the {vocalsound} the fancy f look of vegetables for instance, to to these covers
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features.
Marketing: I think the {disfmarker} if we do the cover that's really going with the company's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics, it lets people have the latest fashion
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out, you'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it'll still be in fashion.
Project Manager: Mm mm mm mm mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.'Cause sometimes look at this computer, th this laptop, it's all black,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and uh it's quite conventional, and sometimes people don't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here.
Marketing: Mm. Mm.
Industrial Designer: So maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one, very standard one, that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things.
Marketing: Mm. Yep.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yep. Mm.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm.
Marketing: And then you have the option of having the different colours, different covers.
Project Manager: Yes. So so so that that would make the trends equal,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: so we we we really have {disfmarker} don't have,
Marketing: Mm. There's n yeah.'Cause that's the that's the feature that could be included in either of them.
Project Manager: I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one.
Project Manager: Yes, indeed.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, so a a point better for the for the number two {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Okay. So. Two and three, or one and two?
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah, it's one.
Project Manager: Say, say one and two. One and two.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: So le le let's see. So d
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: this one has spongy but buttons?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, the blue one uh spongy.
User Interface: Yeah, it says a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm, I see, yes okay. Good.
Marketing: Okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five, so five {disfmarker} mm nine by five, one point s eight?
Project Manager: Just add it.
Industrial Designer: Nine.
Project Manager: You know. Three, six, seven.
User Interface: One point six, one point {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: One point eight yeah.
Marketing: This one, eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one, divided by five is four point two
User Interface: Four point {disfmarker} Uh four point two.
Marketing: yep.
Industrial Designer: Very good.
Marketing: Okay. But we still got a very different price for those two so they're not really comparable yet anyway.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. We {disfmarker} we must try to get them closer.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's right, yeah that's right.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep.
Project Manager: Both in i i
User Interface: Wow.
Project Manager: or we just have to choose. And adapt.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Because, when we choose for this one we have to {vocalsound} we have to make it more attractive
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and w when we {gap} to d for this one we have to make it more cheap.
Marketing: Well it's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes, well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: That'll basically take us down to the budget.
Project Manager: But I'm {vocalsound} now {disfmarker} did y did you work with the same prices that I have here?
Industrial Designer: So I I give yeah I just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh I explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen Fr Euros.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh unfortunately we didn't see this chip, uh Matthew,
User Interface: Yeah. Yep.
Project Manager: Mm, tha
Industrial Designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one.
User Interface: Maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this, yeah.
Project Manager: Well yes, well uh re reconsider it. So {vocalsound} let's let's try to to model this this phone in this sheet,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: uh what kind of energy source uh I I {disfmarker} we didn't speak about that. It's a {disfmarker} it's a normal battery, or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, it migh It {disfmarker} it'll need uh more than a conventional one, it won't be uh just {disfmarker} maybe you might use a A_A_ battery actually. What do you say, Mael?
Industrial Designer: For this one it's a normal battery {gap}.
Project Manager: Yes. Just so one battery.'Kay. Electronics. {gap} given speech recognition I think w you should go for the less fancy chip.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh sample speaker, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, yes, or sample sensor, yes.
Industrial Designer: Sample, yeah, this one.
Project Manager: Yes, this one. Okay. Case? Um,
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Curved. Double curved yeah right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I see {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Double curve.
Marketing: Yeah, it's gonna be more than just the biggest case, definitely.
Project Manager: {gap} Mm.
Industrial Designer: So which one are we talking to?
User Interface: Are you talking about this or that?
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Either of them.
Project Manager: Oh yes, we are talking about, but they have the same shape,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm. They're both going to be not basic cases.
Project Manager: but, actually bu
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So th th this would be double curves?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay. Uh, plastic would be the material.
Marketing: Yeah. The basic one, yep.
Industrial Designer: Is it zero Franc? {vocalsound}
User Interface: A special colour? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh special colour, now we leave it to the covers.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So now we're either going button or L_C_D_s, L_C_D_ display.
Project Manager: Push. Mm, yes, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_ is {gap}. It's okay. Just say L_C_D_ {gap}.
Marketing: Is that price per unit, or for the whole thing?
Project Manager: Yeah th now this is per per unit, this number of components.
User Interface: Ah good.
Marketing: So it would need twelve buttons.
User Interface: Yeah, we might need a scroll wheel, right, for that?
Industrial Designer: No but for this one it's twelve Euro.
User Interface: No, for that one also.
Industrial Designer: There are twelve?
Project Manager: So, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
User Interface: Yeah that's a scroll.
Project Manager: t Yes. Twelve I believe. So this comes to eighteen.
Marketing: Mm. And that's without any special button supplements.
User Interface: Yeah, one scroll wheel you might need.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we'd have a special colour, special form and special material on all of them. They're not just standard buttons.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I think {disfmarker} but th do you agree th that thi
Industrial Designer: Wait a minute, it's not it's not double curved, it's single curved, right? Because it's {disfmarker} there is no like {vocalsound}.
Marketing: But I thought it would be curved on two {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes I
Marketing: it's like it's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well, that's what I thought.
Project Manager: Yes I'm I'm no I'm no I'm not sh sure.
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: Yes I kno undes I understand what you mean, yes.
Industrial Designer: it's {gap} you know this curve like this so, it's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are {disfmarker}
Marketing: You talking about concave curves?
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: yeah concave.
Project Manager: Both.
Industrial Designer: So I think we can put um {disfmarker}
Marketing: You think a single curved?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} the single curved in the sixteen. That makes uh seventeen. And what are just {disfmarker} The bt buttons, we have twelve buttons, are you sure? Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yes. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: We have more, we've got those {disfmarker} the scroll wheel on the side
Industrial Designer: So
Marketing: and yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I had a bad uh bad estimation.
User Interface: Bad estimate,
Marketing: The sc
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} d {vocalsound}
User Interface: right?
Project Manager: we have {disfmarker} we haven't talk about a {gap}, but that's no a {gap} is very exp inexpensive I believe
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: but it is not in the list.
Marketing: We've got a scroll wheel for the volume don't we, or is it some other thing that's not on there.
Project Manager: W ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no.
Marketing:'Kay we've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast.
Industrial Designer: Yes, a kind of scroll wheel.
Marketing: So this is even more than the um than the cost you gave, the sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Okay,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so based on that, yeah, um where is the es okay sample speaker {disfmarker}
User Interface: That is the sample sensor and sample speaker.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But still, yeah it {gap}
User Interface: We just need that actually. We need one.
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} We could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip, but then we can't have the the speech recognition, yes? Yes?
Industrial Designer: No we cannot, yeah.
Project Manager: So so w when we w a
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: S
Project Manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition.
Industrial Designer: But the um {disfmarker} Yeah but if you have the {disfmarker} near the L_C_D_ you can um {vocalsound} choose {disfmarker} select between um you know like uni universal between audio, T_V_ and V_C_R_, and this needs a needs a advanced chip.
Project Manager: Transti
Industrial Designer: Right, Matthew?
User Interface: Oh I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or regular chip?
User Interface: I think it's going to be {disfmarker} y y
Industrial Designer: I think yeah regular, today we you can do that with regular chip.
User Interface: yeah it's th with the regular chip, yeah.
Project Manager: Say {gap} say it's regular, regular chip,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: and we still on fifteen,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So. And what about the number of buttons buttons uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my Matthew?
Project Manager: Yes but that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} Well we can just say
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: one.
Industrial Designer: When you look at this w, this u uh item, {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Ca l we are just {disfmarker} when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty.
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So is it possible?
Marketing: {vocalsound} But that's seven basic buttons right, seven buttons without any adds-on, without special colours or form or material.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: That'll be {disfmarker} then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times.
Industrial Designer: You cannot make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really {vocalsound} really low,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no,
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: he he he I I
Industrial Designer: no?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {gap} the L_C_D_ display is is three Francs, sorry three Euros, by itself.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And uh we don't want to to change that right? We we really want a L_C_D_
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market.
Project Manager: Otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this.
Industrial Designer: It's evident.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So twelve Euro fifty, we got two off of the battery,
Industrial Designer: And I dunno {disfmarker}
Marketing: we can't do anything about that, so ten fifty, if we want an L_C_D_ dispra display, that's seven fifty um, so we've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons. And the chip.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Sorry the chip's up there already.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Marketing: So we're gonna have to scale this down to get within budget, there's no doubt about that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A
Industrial Designer: So wha what what each of us think about the {disfmarker} because it's measure point the L_C_D_, um {disfmarker} Do you think it's important?
User Interface: Or we could even replace them by buttons actually.
Industrial Designer: Because sometimes whe when you watch the T_V_ in fact, you have a big display and maybe you don't need one more in your hands? I dunno, I'm just asking.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: A actually it depends, it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it,
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons, or {disfmarker} and you'll have L_C_D_ display which is {disfmarker} that is going to bring the cost by two two Euros at least.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah. I think, unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the L_C_D_ display.
User Interface: Okay so we can get rid of it
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's true yeah.
User Interface: and then add a couple of buttons.
Industrial Designer: But uh, do we want that? On the market point of view, yeah. What do you think uh, L_C_D_ is a major feature, or?
Project Manager: Mm. I
Marketing: For the price, it's gonna be what we can afford, and it's looking like we can't afford the L_C_D_ display, there's no way we can get it in there. {vocalsound} Mm.
Project Manager: I {gap} think we have to come to a decision now, just I I think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the L_C_D_ uh display
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You assume, you want a democratic voyt vote,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: right? Okay.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes. {vocalsound} One man one vote.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S so who thinks the the L_C_D_ disply display should be i should be in it?
Marketing: I th I'd like t it to be in but I can't see it happening. I can't see it fitting in.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We need to be. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bu y you're a power voter {disfmarker} uh veto anyway as Project Manager.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, I know, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that.
Marketing: {gap} well we have to make a decision now, that's it.
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh uh having an L_C_D_ s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons. Is that acceptable? Ca can I have {disfmarker} can the functions be implement in an {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: You've {disfmarker} you you agree.
User Interface: W I I I just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So hav hav having seven buttons, instead of twelve.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here. Here one, at the middle, and at the bottom.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm. I think then we we're really losing ease of use.
Industrial Designer: Okay, {gap}.
User Interface: That will create another problem. For the people to use it. It's not going to be easy. Doing that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Mm. So um
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I I think we should we should cut the L_C_D_ screen. That that's that's my opinion.
User Interface: No, it's okay, you uh cut the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
User Interface: and introduce two more buttons.
Marketing: Okay. So L_C_D_'s out, is speech rec out now? We've {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The speech recognition is out. Because of the budget, yeah.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Uh where, L_C_ {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay w we now we can just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So are we basically back to the original one now, back to the first version? Which turns out to be on budget exactly, pretty much. With these new costings.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: So {gap} just look at {disfmarker} forget that one and look at that one now.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes. I th I th I think w we just go for this one
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: and that that now twelve Euros is the is is the price,
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: okay.
Marketing: Okay. Well that's that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: My m my supervisor will be glad that it's fifty cents cheaper than he expected.
Marketing: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Actually yeah,
Marketing: So.
Industrial Designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount, yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yep. So w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment.
Project Manager: Okay, good. Then we {gap} the same. Thank you.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: That was it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks.
User Interface: That's it. Cool.
Marketing: Okay. | Marketing recalled what the team had identified as being important to sell the product for both the devices and made a list of features from the marketing point of view. For both of the prototypes, Marketing asked the team to give one to seven points to each feature of the product and the lower the points the better the feature. For instance, look and feel, innovation and ease of use, were the three important components that Marketing wanted the team to discuss about. This might help with the conclusion whether the product was appealing to the correct demographic and incorporated the fashion trend into it. | qmsum |
What did the team discuss about the product cost?
Marketing: Did you get my email with the slides? Ah. Tricky.
Industrial Designer: I guess I have to change the pen otherwise. Will be completely different.
Marketing: Dunno. Maybe they're supposed {disfmarker} the pen's supposed to go over the seats. Might be seat floor rather than person. Yeah, put it back.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And do you think {vocalsound} it's {gap}.
Marketing: Yep {vocalsound}. Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: Jo's making faces at me. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So. Matthew is uh late again.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably an important man. Um. So well it is important for him to be here uh.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: He he he {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So what can you {disfmarker} {gap}?
Project Manager: You did work together didn't you?
Industrial Designer: Yeah we will {disfmarker} yeah, so I will be able to to summarize uh our meeting,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: but still I think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer. I think we can put on the {gap} here.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes.
Industrial Designer: Uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items.
Project Manager: Mm. Um yes
Industrial Designer: Um, can we have a phone,
Project Manager: but w we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: can someone {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes, maybe we should phone him. Um well {disfmarker} Um,
Industrial Designer: it's really w well designed {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm. Mm, object tracking. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue. Um so just for record I I will take uh notes again.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: And um well {vocalsound} first thing uh I was uh uh I got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve Euro and fifty cents.
Industrial Designer:'Kay.
Project Manager: when you stay in it's good, when you don't stay in you have to redesign. There is no {vocalsound} uh no negotiation uh {vocalsound} possible in this matter. So we have to consider that. {vocalsound} Good.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Um so maybe Anna, you can have your presentation.
Marketing: Well we can't {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} we can't do evaluation'til we have a design.
Project Manager: Okay Matthew. Nice uh you are here.
Industrial Designer: Great.
Project Manager: Great. Great. Oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs.
Industrial Designer: Yep. So I will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight Euros actually, right, seven eight Euros,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape, maybe the designer can uh explain better than me, but uh it's like a surf board.
Marketing: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: And you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf T_V_, maybe the web, and uh it's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf {vocalsound} when they see this stuff.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Or browse.
Industrial Designer: And also it's not too far from um a mobile.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: So people are used to that kind of shape,
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: right. Don't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we don't take {disfmarker}
User Interface: Now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now.
Industrial Designer: yeah. So here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Eye.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah L_A_ L_A_ L_E_D_,
User Interface: L_E_D_.
Industrial Designer: the on-off button, in red.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Here would be the volume. On the on the left,
Marketing: Oh yeah.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: okay, so {gap}
User Interface: Mm-hmm, hmm.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: easy to turn on t and off. And um so this is a very cheap version so there are {disfmarker} maybe you can carry on uh Matthew.
User Interface: Also {vocalsound} so you have uh uh browsing the channels, actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so you can go up and down the channels,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: uh, if you have a video or something you can forward, back.
Industrial Designer: How can you change from V_C_R_ to uh T_V_, by the way?
User Interface: Oh {gap} no no no, this is a single {disfmarker} this this is a model with just the T_V_ one.
Industrial Designer: Okay yeah. Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Ah, okay.
User Interface: No no just sorry, this is a standard T_V_ one, we are not talking about that. So and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: The extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel. And the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that. Actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay so
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: it's it's t a very basic remote then, it's only {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a very basic minimal thing
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: which you can {disfmarker} which is which is also available in the market, actually that's what it {gap} {disfmarker} that it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and would cost us to build it about eight Euros.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Seven, eight, ei eight Euros.
Project Manager: Exce except for the for the special shape, the surfing board, it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: So this one model
Marketing: Can I see?
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Sure.
Marketing: Thanks. Okay I like the volume control, that's good.
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Th {vocalsound} this is a magic one but I know we don't want to talk about that,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you know like {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic, it's like uh it's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future, it can come.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it doesn't actually have buttons.
User Interface: {vocalsound} So that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} then what we look t
Marketing: Did you wanna see?
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Yeah no you can carry on,
User Interface: This is a model,
Project Manager: I just look how it feels all.
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Just I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah actually, yeah.
Project Manager: I really want to talk to it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} It won't talk back. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So but but continue with your uh
User Interface: Uh so well
Project Manager: mm-hmm.
User Interface: then the this is the {vocalsound} a more a little uh smooth
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: and it gives a lot of functionality, uh in this way, so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys, but don't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here.
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: And so they have more space actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh it's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh {gap} uh infrared eye, and then you have a power button, which l volume, what you have,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo
Industrial Designer: Play, pause.
User Interface: yeah s pause or stop, and uh then uh you can uh you have a L_C_D_ display, here
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it's a toggle switch which could change the function say, y you press it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: From D_V_D_ player to television or something.
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah. To audio and to video on demand.
User Interface: Yeah. I really can change it,
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Instead of having many switches, y {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yes and and and then you get feedback via the L_C_D_ yeah.
User Interface: The L_C_D_ can display what is that on that,
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here,
Industrial Designer: This is the orange button, the {vocalsound} microphone.
User Interface: or in the button th here,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display.
Industrial Designer: An yeah.
User Interface: And here is a small L_E_D_ which is like blinking one,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery, and which is can be useful for the locating as I was talking earlier
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: okay. And uh well then we have a cover basically, basically you don't need much of the time this,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} when you need you can use it, and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover
Project Manager: Mm. Yeah
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Crazy dis designer,
User Interface: you know.
Industrial Designer: okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Design enter {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed, will it also uh cover up the L_C_D_ screen?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. It's basically to do that.
Project Manager: But but the L_C_D_ screen I mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which shouldn't be shouldn't be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Actually when you are watching the T_V_, {vocalsound} when you are watching anything or listening to them, you hardly care about what is getting displayed here,
Industrial Designer: Oh actually {disfmarker} well.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That th that's true.
User Interface: you know, uh you want to uh {disfmarker} and this gives a protection to the L_C_D_ actually, giving a cover to that actually. Gives a protection
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, more robust.
User Interface: it's more robust that way. Uh yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yes okay.
User Interface: And you have very good chances {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's low weight. You have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So the the cost is actually a bit more, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's sixteen Francs.
User Interface: It {disfmarker} Sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: {gap} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Sixteen Euros sorry.
Marketing: So it's well outside the budget then.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then it's out of budget.
Project Manager: But w
Industrial Designer: But the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer. And they say basically that the S_R_ system would be uh something like three Francs per item {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so
User Interface: Three Euros.
Industrial Designer: three Euros sorry. And um {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's on top of the sixteen, or is it part of that?
Industrial Designer: No no no, part of that, yeah.
User Interface: Part of that {gap}.
Marketing: So that takes it down to thirteen Euros without the speech recognition.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm'kay. Hmm. {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Well uh if you {disfmarker} we can have {disfmarker} if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well I think th th yeah we should {vocalsound} stick with uh a number of keys
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: because if we add too much then
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {gap}.
Industrial Designer: it's too {disfmarker}
User Interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything.
Marketing: What's this one on the side?
User Interface: Ah that's for the {disfmarker} it's kind of a L_E_D_ for indicating your battery
Industrial Designer: Locati. Location.
Marketing: Ah okay.
User Interface: and as well as it's like a blinking one
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm'kay.
User Interface: you know
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: you can keep it aside.
Marketing: I like the shape of them, I do like the the size and the the shape.
Project Manager: Well well {disfmarker} Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Be before ta talking about the money and what's possible and what is not possible, maybe Anna you can uh give our uh give us your um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Okay. And maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products, both of these two.
Project Manager: Yes. Evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria, so what what is important to look at.
Marketing: Okay. {vocalsound} Basically this is what we've talked about already, um, from the marketing point of view.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: We just wanna make sure that we've taken into account {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: just do it quickly if if we al already {gap}.
Marketing: So it's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we've identified as being important to selling the product.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we'll make an evaluation based on that, so just average the score of those items, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} These are the things we identified as being important. Um {gap} the three things were look and feel, innovation and ease of use, were the three important components
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic. And then goin following the company motto, following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well. So well do you wanna go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wanna discuss them further and then evaluate them?
Project Manager: Um, n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now, {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. So f just go through onto the whiteboard I guess. Not sure how this is gonna come out. So the first one was really {vocalsound} very far below budget, would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it?'Cause if we're only going to make it for eight Euros then we have a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm, well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight Euros we must think how can we improve it.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And then {disfmarker} I mean w w w you must just see it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we can still spend this four and a half Euro
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Project Manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five Euros
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so we just have to offer as much as as {disfmarker} well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five Euro.
Industrial Designer: Functionality.
Marketing: Okay so look and feel, innovation {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: And now it {gap} easy to use.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Easy to use.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: {gap} target.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. And trends. Oh, you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these? Is that part of both of them or?
Project Manager: Um well w w we can still discuss that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: So um, and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: I mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: but um I've received uh a framework which we can do this. I mean did you have this this Excel sheet?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: No.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: No okay, this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve Euro uh fifty cents uh.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Project Manager: So maybe we can start with this, uh, calling this one. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. Yep. So it's the pink.
Project Manager: Th th this is the first design.
Marketing: And the other one's green. Okay, so
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: look and feel? Where um one is {vocalsound} I've broken the pen again. S
Project Manager: Uh there is another pen.
Marketing: yeah. Get that one. Um w {vocalsound} one's bad and seven's the best. Sorry, one's true and seven's false. One's the best.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: So on a scale of one to seven?
Project Manager:'Kay. Okay. So. Look and feel. Well you already feel that uh pretty much I think {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: In i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good, is very good in your hand,
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so I I I would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: But that's just half, we should also consider look,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and then i it looks quite conventional.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Don't you agree?
User Interface: Mm yeah.
Marketing: On the scale u it's between functional and fancy basically we're looking at,
Project Manager: So maybe two. Hmm. Hmm. Ma ma ma ma maybe say say five
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} It's my opinion, but I don't know what what
User Interface: Well I will give it maybe {disfmarker} we have anyways {disfmarker} the way we have designed it's like the surf as you say {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: you know. It {disfmarker} though the look is fine but uh still I will give four in that case
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Four maybe.
User Interface: you know.
Marketing: Four? Okay.
Project Manager: Four, four.
User Interface: Four yeah
Project Manager: Now we th th
User Interface: that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: then we settle on four.
User Interface: Yeah. I will gi yeah.
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager:'Kay. Can you maybe fix the other {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: If you press like this not like this {gap} then you {disfmarker}
Marketing: No that's the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: No.
Marketing: ink's dried.
User Interface: C can you get the batteries? No no the battery has fallen down,
Marketing: Battery's low, isn't it the ink?
User Interface: that's i
Marketing: The b that's the that that one?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {gap} battery there.
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no it's not that, it's how to close a battery.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Okay? Now it should be {gap}.
Marketing: Mm. No I think it's lost a battery.
Project Manager: Mm, try it, just try it.
Marketing: No it's {disfmarker} It would still write
Project Manager: Oh it will not
Marketing: but it wouldn't pick it up with the sensors.
Project Manager: ri mm, mm.
User Interface: Is there another battery there? Oh yeah.
Marketing: You got a second?
Industrial Designer: Try a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well we won't be able to tell.
Project Manager: Yes, it it has a {disfmarker} mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Perfect.
Marketing: Is that working?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Did it come out? Good. Okay.
Project Manager: Good. Good.
Marketing: Because we'll be able to see it still even if it wasn't working, it's just a normal whiteboard marker
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
Marketing: but it wouldn't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay. So then then {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the other one?
Industrial Designer: Wow.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it's slightly better, um,
Project Manager: Ah. Mm.
Marketing: it's hard to tell from just the plasticine,
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: When we want to include {disfmarker} I I I'm doubting about this this component.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: It it it it breaks in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer:'Kay
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: No actually this is this is not going to protrude actually,
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: it it's n i it is jus
Industrial Designer: It's not a button it's a led, it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a led actually which which'll be covering in a curve {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ac actually yeah it should be embedded.
Project Manager: Mm, yes I see, mm okay.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} will be embedded there
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Oh
User Interface: so it won't be really you know protruding or something.
Industrial Designer: you can push push it again, you can push it.
Marketing: Yeah. The other thing is, is the left hand one protruding?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing:'Cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand,
User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: maybe it won't work so well.
User Interface: No you {disfmarker} it it not protruding actually, it will go in better into that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Well r r
Marketing: I'd say two or three for that one, personally.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Probably more towards three than two.
Project Manager: I think the look is better
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but the feel is is is worse. So so {vocalsound} I would also say this is four.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: But w w do you {disfmarker} what do you think?
User Interface: Uh it's fine I think. My {disfmarker} just that um the feel is that um you {disfmarker} right now you you don't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this, now it's embedded one.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Yes.
User Interface: This is how embedded one will {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes, it basically is the same shape.
User Interface: Yeah. It's a bas basically the same thing actually.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm.
User Interface: You will be {disfmarker} Except that in this c
Industrial Designer: And the L_C_D_ makes it better. Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
User Interface: And {vocalsound} you might have a slight thing for to forward and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm, okay. Yeah
Industrial Designer: So I will say two.
Marketing: it's d it's definitely more fancier than that one.
Project Manager: Yes, okay {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: I would say two, three.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So, consensus? Two or three?
Project Manager: Two?
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Mm. Two's good
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: yes.
User Interface: {gap} looking like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um,'kay. Innovation. The first one, not really muc
Industrial Designer: Basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market,
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: right?
Marketing: Do we {disfmarker}
User Interface: No but except for the design of the surf {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. The surf uh design {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: What {disfmarker} What features are we actually including?
User Interface: You should be rea {vocalsound}
Marketing: Are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh no
Marketing: There's nothing like that?
User Interface: I think it's more of the feel.
Marketing: But th is there any there's no actual innovation in that at all, it's just a straight-out remote control.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: The only innova innovation is the shape.
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap}.
User Interface: Say about that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: S so that {disfmarker}
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} this uh look and feel thing, though that's not a technological innovation.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. You're right {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So I'd be up for seven for innovation.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And the {disfmarker} And the second one is really uh state of the art, uh in terms of innovation.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: And um with many more functionalities, and can open and close the the bottom part.
User Interface: Yeah, it gives it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes. A and the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's that's that's well it's quite innovative.
Industrial Designer: And all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh could put it at one or two I would say. Personally.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.
User Interface: Yep.
Marketing: So what is it, what are the innovations with this? Got the L_C_D_ screen.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah automatic speech recognition.
Marketing: Is that in this one though? Is this {disfmarker}'cause this is the {disfmarker} Th th there were different options we discussed then,
User Interface: No, we ha
Marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget.
Project Manager: We just diske discuss it as you designed it
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So the cost for these were {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: what was the cost for the first one? Eight Euros?
Project Manager: Eight.
Industrial Designer: Eight. Well actually we have yeah to check again yeah.
User Interface: Yeah, eight Euros yeah.
Marketing: And this one was sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Sixteen.
User Interface: Sixteen Euros.
Marketing: Okay. So. Innovation for this one is two? One?
User Interface: It's a two, I would say two {gap}.
Marketing: Two?
Project Manager: Two.
Industrial Designer: W W un to be one what would do we nee actually, yeah, I don't see {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why it is one.
Industrial Designer: okay, one would would be without buttons, {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A man {disfmarker} w w
Marketing: Mm. Well
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation I believe it,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: so {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So maybe we can put one.
Project Manager: This this is it w with the speech recognition?
Industrial Designer: It's using speech recognition, yeah.
Project Manager: Well.
User Interface: Okay yeah.
Project Manager: Gi given that {vocalsound} that it works,
Marketing: Give it a one?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, one, yeah.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then it's I think one.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Ease of use?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So the first one is really standard,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it,
User Interface: He is used to it act
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: right?
User Interface: They are used to it actually.
Marketing: Yep. So that's maybe a a two for ease of use.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Here there may {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um, the other one is quite easy, tho though.
User Interface: Uh, though it has more functionality I think it shouldn't be for the user to learn it actually. It shouldn't be diffi
Marketing: Okay. So maybe a three or a four.
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Uh yeah, actually in fact I think it will be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: One me um we hope {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah but {vocalsound} y
Industrial Designer: And there is a {disfmarker} like I would say three. Or maybe four {gap}.
Marketing: Okay. Consensus? Three or four?
User Interface: Well we have reduced the keys actually you see.
Project Manager: Three, I would. Three.
Marketing: Three? Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah
User Interface: Three is fine with me.
Industrial Designer: because it's n uh it's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so, {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No.
User Interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do {disfmarker} use that actually,
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: it's not so easy, like this one the normal.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yes but then when when he is used to it, i i it is quite easy.
User Interface: Is quite easy yeah.
Project Manager: So so I think th three is good. Yeah.
User Interface: Initially there there is a lot of effort, yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Good.
Marketing: So three's
Project Manager: What's the next?
Marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic. So we're d we're still thinking twenty to forty year olds?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Twe twenty to forty, yes that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: This one would be uh for grandmothers {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no, this would I
Industrial Designer: No.
User Interface: I would I would give this model to the old people actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, grandmothers, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So sh completely changed our demographic there,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: it's not part of the the funky young thing.
Project Manager: Well exce except for the surfing shape. I mean that's that's something which which has an appeal on this group I think,
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's true. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. If it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then I can imagine it being {disfmarker} applying to the the demographic
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: yeah. That's {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Ye
Project Manager: Mm w w w we {disfmarker} after this we can can consider uh for instance, making this more attractive to to the demographic
Marketing: Mm.'Cause we have got room, we've got some budget there to add a few things to it,
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: that's right.
Project Manager: But as it is now, I w would say mm, six, something.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Oh yeah, {gap}.
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you agree?
User Interface: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah because it's so important {disfmarker} it's i it was written that it really so important, the um the the look and uh taking care of its {disfmarker} it targets, the right range of people,
User Interface: Well I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: right?
User Interface: Yeah. Uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it's going to be cheap, actually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But it's going to be cheap whatever though,
Industrial Designer: But w
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: it was set with i we've got a set price.
User Interface: And people can still decide to use the cheaper one
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: instead of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But for us it's {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound} we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five Euros.
Project Manager: Mm, yeah, indeed.
Marketing: Yeah. There's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few Euros on that one rather than another one.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Ju just think, twenty five Euros, I mean it's not going to be cheaper.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay. So in that case well it's fine then.
Marketing: Okay. Um
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Okay.
User Interface: We can {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one?
User Interface: And the demographics of {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's got the got the the toys in it, it's got the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Yeah tha tha tha tha tha that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's better,
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: because of the L_C_D_ screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: on the {gap} and on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. And if you want to target {disfmarker} yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this, I think for this audience we need absolutely the L_C_D_ screen.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm. So, the L_C_D_ screen uh attracts,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: yes.
Marketing: I think especially if we're gonna n have an L_C_D_ screen on a low range product then that's good.
Project Manager: Because it {disfmarker} Mm, ma maybe that's something to consider, yes {vocalsound},
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm. Okay.
Project Manager: so. Wh what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'd probably go with three again for that one.
User Interface: Yeah I think it's uh {disfmarker} it has more market actually.
Industrial Designer: Or even {disfmarker} Even one and two. Or two.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: No s say t two.
User Interface: Y yeah, you know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay. So, two, yeah?
User Interface: two.
Project Manager: Two?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Two yeah.
User Interface: Yeah two yeah. Because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add {vocalsound} lot of sophistication on that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include
Marketing: Yeah. Yep. And especially I guess'cause this has the speech recognition as well,
User Interface: for the people to {disfmarker}
Marketing: and that makes it more appealing, it's more of a a new fun toy.
User Interface: We have to practically test it.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: The field test will tell you how good. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Okay, the final point, trends.
Marketing: And following the trends.
User Interface: The trends.
Marketing: So the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm. {vocalsound}
Marketing: So as it is, not really doing either of them.
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Spongy, uh, that means that it goes in in the water. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: I know some {disfmarker} have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and {disfmarker} not not exactly spongy but I'm thinking one of the Nokias that's got like you ca it hasn't got individual buttons
Industrial Designer: Uh okay.
Marketing: it's got just a one bit on it
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah I know.
Marketing: and so you can {disfmarker} that feels kinda spongy.
Industrial Designer: But this one includes this feature, right? Spongy buttons.
Marketing: So it's sort of, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. We we we we we yeah, it's the way they are going to be, actually.
Marketing: Mm. Okay.
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Uh
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie.
Marketing: But that's if you're using the covers.
Project Manager: And the then we can al
Marketing: Or is it just one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: yes. We can {disfmarker} we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think, to to make a cover for s such a phone? I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well they make it for mobiles, it can't be that much more complicated.
User Interface: But why do you want to cover that actually? In that uh w in the mod
Project Manager: Well just with the with the flexible plastic uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you got the option of having different colours or different textures.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. This is possible.
Project Manager: I th I th I think {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh uh y are you sure? Yeah I think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone, yeah.
Project Manager: O o or just two things which can be put on each other.
Marketing: Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly like Nokia phones {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes, exactly like it.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Uh, so Maybe we can {vocalsound} but we have to decide it, we can put the the {vocalsound} the fancy f look of vegetables for instance, to to these covers
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features.
Marketing: I think the {disfmarker} if we do the cover that's really going with the company's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics, it lets people have the latest fashion
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out, you'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it'll still be in fashion.
Project Manager: Mm mm mm mm mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.'Cause sometimes look at this computer, th this laptop, it's all black,
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and uh it's quite conventional, and sometimes people don't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here.
Marketing: Mm. Mm.
Industrial Designer: So maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one, very standard one, that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things.
Marketing: Mm. Yep.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yep. Mm.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm.
Marketing: And then you have the option of having the different colours, different covers.
Project Manager: Yes. So so so that that would make the trends equal,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: so we we we really have {disfmarker} don't have,
Marketing: Mm. There's n yeah.'Cause that's the that's the feature that could be included in either of them.
Project Manager: I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one.
Project Manager: Yes, indeed.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, so a a point better for the for the number two {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Okay. So. Two and three, or one and two?
Project Manager: Yes.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah, it's one.
Project Manager: Say, say one and two. One and two.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: So le le let's see. So d
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: this one has spongy but buttons?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, the blue one uh spongy.
User Interface: Yeah, it says a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm, I see, yes okay. Good.
Marketing: Okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five, so five {disfmarker} mm nine by five, one point s eight?
Project Manager: Just add it.
Industrial Designer: Nine.
Project Manager: You know. Three, six, seven.
User Interface: One point six, one point {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: One point eight yeah.
Marketing: This one, eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one, divided by five is four point two
User Interface: Four point {disfmarker} Uh four point two.
Marketing: yep.
Industrial Designer: Very good.
Marketing: Okay. But we still got a very different price for those two so they're not really comparable yet anyway.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. We {disfmarker} we must try to get them closer.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's right, yeah that's right.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep.
Project Manager: Both in i i
User Interface: Wow.
Project Manager: or we just have to choose. And adapt.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Because, when we choose for this one we have to {vocalsound} we have to make it more attractive
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: and w when we {gap} to d for this one we have to make it more cheap.
Marketing: Well it's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes, well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: That'll basically take us down to the budget.
Project Manager: But I'm {vocalsound} now {disfmarker} did y did you work with the same prices that I have here?
Industrial Designer: So I I give yeah I just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh I explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen Fr Euros.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Uh unfortunately we didn't see this chip, uh Matthew,
User Interface: Yeah. Yep.
Project Manager: Mm, tha
Industrial Designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one.
User Interface: Maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this, yeah.
Project Manager: Well yes, well uh re reconsider it. So {vocalsound} let's let's try to to model this this phone in this sheet,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: uh what kind of energy source uh I I {disfmarker} we didn't speak about that. It's a {disfmarker} it's a normal battery, or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, it migh It {disfmarker} it'll need uh more than a conventional one, it won't be uh just {disfmarker} maybe you might use a A_A_ battery actually. What do you say, Mael?
Industrial Designer: For this one it's a normal battery {gap}.
Project Manager: Yes. Just so one battery.'Kay. Electronics. {gap} given speech recognition I think w you should go for the less fancy chip.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh sample speaker, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, yes, or sample sensor, yes.
Industrial Designer: Sample, yeah, this one.
Project Manager: Yes, this one. Okay. Case? Um,
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Curved. Double curved yeah right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I see {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Double curve.
Marketing: Yeah, it's gonna be more than just the biggest case, definitely.
Project Manager: {gap} Mm.
Industrial Designer: So which one are we talking to?
User Interface: Are you talking about this or that?
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Either of them.
Project Manager: Oh yes, we are talking about, but they have the same shape,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm. They're both going to be not basic cases.
Project Manager: but, actually bu
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So th th this would be double curves?
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay. Uh, plastic would be the material.
Marketing: Yeah. The basic one, yep.
Industrial Designer: Is it zero Franc? {vocalsound}
User Interface: A special colour? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh special colour, now we leave it to the covers.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So now we're either going button or L_C_D_s, L_C_D_ display.
Project Manager: Push. Mm, yes, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_ is {gap}. It's okay. Just say L_C_D_ {gap}.
Marketing: Is that price per unit, or for the whole thing?
Project Manager: Yeah th now this is per per unit, this number of components.
User Interface: Ah good.
Marketing: So it would need twelve buttons.
User Interface: Yeah, we might need a scroll wheel, right, for that?
Industrial Designer: No but for this one it's twelve Euro.
User Interface: No, for that one also.
Industrial Designer: There are twelve?
Project Manager: So, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
User Interface: Yeah that's a scroll.
Project Manager: t Yes. Twelve I believe. So this comes to eighteen.
Marketing: Mm. And that's without any special button supplements.
User Interface: Yeah, one scroll wheel you might need.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we'd have a special colour, special form and special material on all of them. They're not just standard buttons.
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I think {disfmarker} but th do you agree th that thi
Industrial Designer: Wait a minute, it's not it's not double curved, it's single curved, right? Because it's {disfmarker} there is no like {vocalsound}.
Marketing: But I thought it would be curved on two {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes I
Marketing: it's like it's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well, that's what I thought.
Project Manager: Yes I'm I'm no I'm no I'm not sh sure.
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: Yes I kno undes I understand what you mean, yes.
Industrial Designer: it's {gap} you know this curve like this so, it's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are {disfmarker}
Marketing: You talking about concave curves?
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
Industrial Designer: yeah concave.
Project Manager: Both.
Industrial Designer: So I think we can put um {disfmarker}
Marketing: You think a single curved?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} the single curved in the sixteen. That makes uh seventeen. And what are just {disfmarker} The bt buttons, we have twelve buttons, are you sure? Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Yes. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: We have more, we've got those {disfmarker} the scroll wheel on the side
Industrial Designer: So
Marketing: and yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I had a bad uh bad estimation.
User Interface: Bad estimate,
Marketing: The sc
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} d {vocalsound}
User Interface: right?
Project Manager: we have {disfmarker} we haven't talk about a {gap}, but that's no a {gap} is very exp inexpensive I believe
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: but it is not in the list.
Marketing: We've got a scroll wheel for the volume don't we, or is it some other thing that's not on there.
Project Manager: W ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no.
Marketing:'Kay we've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast.
Industrial Designer: Yes, a kind of scroll wheel.
Marketing: So this is even more than the um than the cost you gave, the sixteen Euros.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Okay,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so based on that, yeah, um where is the es okay sample speaker {disfmarker}
User Interface: That is the sample sensor and sample speaker.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But still, yeah it {gap}
User Interface: We just need that actually. We need one.
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} We could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip, but then we can't have the the speech recognition, yes? Yes?
Industrial Designer: No we cannot, yeah.
Project Manager: So so w when we w a
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: S
Project Manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition.
Industrial Designer: But the um {disfmarker} Yeah but if you have the {disfmarker} near the L_C_D_ you can um {vocalsound} choose {disfmarker} select between um you know like uni universal between audio, T_V_ and V_C_R_, and this needs a needs a advanced chip.
Project Manager: Transti
Industrial Designer: Right, Matthew?
User Interface: Oh I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or regular chip?
User Interface: I think it's going to be {disfmarker} y y
Industrial Designer: I think yeah regular, today we you can do that with regular chip.
User Interface: yeah it's th with the regular chip, yeah.
Project Manager: Say {gap} say it's regular, regular chip,
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: and we still on fifteen,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So. And what about the number of buttons buttons uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my Matthew?
Project Manager: Yes but that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} Well we can just say
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: one.
Industrial Designer: When you look at this w, this u uh item, {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Ca l we are just {disfmarker} when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty.
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So is it possible?
Marketing: {vocalsound} But that's seven basic buttons right, seven buttons without any adds-on, without special colours or form or material.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: That'll be {disfmarker} then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times.
Industrial Designer: You cannot make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really {vocalsound} really low,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no,
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: he he he I I
Industrial Designer: no?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {gap} the L_C_D_ display is is three Francs, sorry three Euros, by itself.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And uh we don't want to to change that right? We we really want a L_C_D_
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market.
Project Manager: Otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this.
Industrial Designer: It's evident.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So twelve Euro fifty, we got two off of the battery,
Industrial Designer: And I dunno {disfmarker}
Marketing: we can't do anything about that, so ten fifty, if we want an L_C_D_ dispra display, that's seven fifty um, so we've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons. And the chip.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Sorry the chip's up there already.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Marketing: So we're gonna have to scale this down to get within budget, there's no doubt about that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A
Industrial Designer: So wha what what each of us think about the {disfmarker} because it's measure point the L_C_D_, um {disfmarker} Do you think it's important?
User Interface: Or we could even replace them by buttons actually.
Industrial Designer: Because sometimes whe when you watch the T_V_ in fact, you have a big display and maybe you don't need one more in your hands? I dunno, I'm just asking.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: A actually it depends, it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it,
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons, or {disfmarker} and you'll have L_C_D_ display which is {disfmarker} that is going to bring the cost by two two Euros at least.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah. I think, unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the L_C_D_ display.
User Interface: Okay so we can get rid of it
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's true yeah.
User Interface: and then add a couple of buttons.
Industrial Designer: But uh, do we want that? On the market point of view, yeah. What do you think uh, L_C_D_ is a major feature, or?
Project Manager: Mm. I
Marketing: For the price, it's gonna be what we can afford, and it's looking like we can't afford the L_C_D_ display, there's no way we can get it in there. {vocalsound} Mm.
Project Manager: I {gap} think we have to come to a decision now, just I I think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the L_C_D_ uh display
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You assume, you want a democratic voyt vote,
Project Manager: Yes.
Industrial Designer: right? Okay.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes. {vocalsound} One man one vote.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S so who thinks the the L_C_D_ disply display should be i should be in it?
Marketing: I th I'd like t it to be in but I can't see it happening. I can't see it fitting in.
Project Manager: Mm. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We need to be. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bu y you're a power voter {disfmarker} uh veto anyway as Project Manager.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, I know, but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that.
Marketing: {gap} well we have to make a decision now, that's it.
Project Manager: Yes.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So uh uh having an L_C_D_ s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons. Is that acceptable? Ca can I have {disfmarker} can the functions be implement in an {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Project Manager: You've {disfmarker} you you agree.
User Interface: W I I I just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So hav hav having seven buttons, instead of twelve.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here. Here one, at the middle, and at the bottom.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Mm. I think then we we're really losing ease of use.
Industrial Designer: Okay, {gap}.
User Interface: That will create another problem. For the people to use it. It's not going to be easy. Doing that.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Mm. So um
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I I think we should we should cut the L_C_D_ screen. That that's that's my opinion.
User Interface: No, it's okay, you uh cut the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
User Interface: and introduce two more buttons.
Marketing: Okay. So L_C_D_'s out, is speech rec out now? We've {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The speech recognition is out. Because of the budget, yeah.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Uh where, L_C_ {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay w we now we can just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So are we basically back to the original one now, back to the first version? Which turns out to be on budget exactly, pretty much. With these new costings.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
Marketing: So {gap} just look at {disfmarker} forget that one and look at that one now.
Project Manager: Yes. Yes. I th I th I think w we just go for this one
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: and that that now twelve Euros is the is is the price,
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: okay.
Marketing: Okay. Well that's that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: My m my supervisor will be glad that it's fifty cents cheaper than he expected.
Marketing: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Actually yeah,
Marketing: So.
Industrial Designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount, yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yep. So w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment.
Project Manager: Okay, good. Then we {gap} the same. Thank you.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: That was it. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks.
User Interface: That's it. Cool.
Marketing: Okay. | The first design obviously met the requirements of the budget so the team focused on the second one to see whether the combination of the two designs could together form an innovative design but was under the budget at the same time. To cut costs, the Project Manager first suggested using normal chips only in exchange for the speech recognition function. The special color was left to the case and it was designed as curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well. Later, the team had argued a lot whether to eliminate the number of buttons or to discard LCD displays. However, if the number of buttons were to be eliminated, it would be far more complicated to use the device, since users must press one button several times to get to the channel. After a vote and discussion about the cost, the team decided to discard both the LCD display and the speech recognition functions since they were really expensive and the later one could not work without the existence of the former one. | qmsum |
What views did Project Manager get from the last meeting review and market research?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
User Interface: Du
Project Manager: Okay. Thanks for coming to this meeting.
Marketing: Hm.
Project Manager: S how we doing on our remote?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We have some {disfmarker} we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want.
User Interface: Uh we yes s I've lo {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I've done the role that I was asked to do anyway.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright let's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting. See if I can't get things uh moving along here a little bit better. Um I'll go over what we went over last time, which shouldn't take long. Then I believe each of you have a presentation. Um I've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote, what they want. Um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do, um and how it's going to do it hopefully. And uh then we'll have the closing. {vocalsound} Um which we'll have forty minutes for. Uh let's see, the last meeting we went over um {vocalsound} who was responsible for what. I'm responsible for leading the meetings, keeping the notes, uh and coming up with the final presentation. Um Corinne is our Marketing Expert. She's gonna figure out what what um the consumer wants. Um {vocalsound} Ryan is our User Interface Designer. And Manuel is the Industrial Designer. So you're gonna come up with the ideas Ryan, and you're gonna pick'em apart.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we decided our remote, uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want. Um we want to be modern, um fun, different. Uh it needs to be sturdy, um easy to find, so we gonna have that locator function. Um and we want to be different. Um and then we went over a couple of different ideas. Ball-shaped phone. The keyboard shape. Um we decided that it should probably be one-handed. Something we could use with one hand. Um and that was our last meeting. So um why don't um {disfmarker} Do each of you have a presentation?
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay. I'll hand it off to you and um {disfmarker} Does anyone {disfmarker} do you wanna go first?
Marketing: Sure.
Project Manager: So we can maybe see what uh what the people want.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What was it? Function?
Industrial Designer: Eight. F_ eight.
Marketing: F_ eight? Well. {vocalsound} How do I get it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Slide show.
Project Manager: To go to the next one?
Marketing: Oh right right right.
Project Manager: Yeah you click on that guy.
Marketing: That one?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay. Alright. Well, this is my report, which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that I was sent. Oh gosh, I've no idea. {vocalsound} G
User Interface: Just press the arrow keys I think. Usually goes to it.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry I actually need to see something else on my screen.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hit F_ eight again.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think.
Marketing: And then? Again?
Project Manager: Yeah. You want it to be on both screens, or just just yours?
Marketing: No I want something else on mine. Is that possible?
Project Manager: Yeah but I think you have to hit escape. And then you can {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Okay but now you don't have that.
Project Manager: Oh hit F_ eight again.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sorry guys.
Project Manager: I know. I did the same thing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then it should come up here shortly.'Kay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} So is there no way I can give you the slideshow and
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen?
Marketing: yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Oh well.
Project Manager: I'm not sure. You could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time I think.
Marketing: Yeah. It's okay. Okay. Um so first of all, the method that I used was by doing some marketing research,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted. And then some internet research. And I was sent a report that was {disfmarker} I think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed. And so I will show you some of the results from that, which I think will be helpful. Um okay here are some of the findings. They said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls. And seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly. Which is a fairly significant number I would say. And eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy. So I think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look, I think that's definitely important. Um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user. Seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot. And if anyone could clarify what that means?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just jus
User Interface: Is is it j just just
Marketing: Zap, does that just mean like changing the channel?
User Interface: just using it
Industrial Designer: yeah.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: Okay. {vocalsound} Um and fifty percent of the users say that they're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control. And there was something else, they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons. And some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all. Of course channel selection is used the most frequently. And then teletext was the next. Volume and then power. And then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used. So I think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button. Um the biggest user frustrations, as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere, and so I think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea. They said it take {disfmarker} thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote. And twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for R_S_I_. {vocalsound}
User Interface: A repetitive strain injury.
Marketing: What is it?
User Interface: Just repetitive strain injury. I think. That's what I guess.
Marketing: Okay. Okay. And so bas okay. Um as far as speech recognition goes, um the younger group looks like they're all for it. From the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more. And it kind of just went down incrementally. The groups at {disfmarker} the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay, so maybe we could discuss this and think {disfmarker} and decide if we think it's worth investing in this. At least if we're targeting the younger groups. And so in conclusion. Some things that I drew from this are that I think we were correct. We definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance, since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control. Um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore. So you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room. Uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons, get rid of the ones that don't seem to be serving much purpose. And then lastly I thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition. And that's it.
Project Manager:'Kay. Very nice. Now we actually have some ideas of what what people want, what we should focus on. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wait can I look at that real quick? {gap}.
Marketing: Oh yeah. Sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing:'Kay.
User Interface: Having just listened to what Corinne just said, I'll draw on some of the things as well. {vocalsound} {gap} Some things that sort of relevant to what I wanna say.'Kay so I'm just gonna yeah approach the technical functions design. Um {vocalsound} the method I used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And t s simplest approach that I came to is is to change, programme and operate an electronic device remotely. I mean that's an obvious thing to say, but it's not attached to the device that you want to control. Um I had some things sent to me. Not very much. To look at similar devices. Um defined in some them. And then the personal preferences that I will suggest. Um we discussed a universal one. Um like it's just been brought up again then. But I think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design, and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it, um because you'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies. I'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself, but you have to {disfmarker} i they're a nightmare to use. You have to set them, reset them to everything. Um and that would only add buttons. Whereas I think the aim is to take away buttons. So I think it'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for T_V_s. Um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people, manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications, if if the aim is to get something that's unique in design. Um {disfmarker} Okay here here's just two pictures of remote controls. They're just simple T_V_ remote controls. But one is uh user-centred. That is the one on the left. And you can straight away see there's less buttons. And the other one is {gap} engineer-centred where that's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it's trying to control um {disfmarker} {gap} which appeals more to the product that we want, and on what the {gap} have said and the market research and stuff {gap} probably looking at something that should be user-centred. Fewer buttons, simpler to use, and if ten percent um is hidden away {disfmarker} if ten percent is what's used, maybe the other fifty percent, the buttons that are used very rarely like programming, they could be hidden maybe under {disfmarker} some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they're hidden away. And the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across. Um and finally, um uh sort I've sort of covered that, our product I think should be user interface orientated. Um {disfmarker} Like I said to concentrate on T_V_ remote control, a universal remote might be too complex. Um and as what it, the major findings {gap} market researchers have said, it's the image and the appearance that people di dislike. So that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend. And that's it.
Industrial Designer: {gap} cable there. Thank you.
Project Manager: What was your last conclusion on that one? Focus on uh the i
User Interface: On something on the image of it.
Project Manager: the image of it.
User Interface: Uh the f the actual design.
Project Manager:'Kay. Good. Good.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Gonna talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there. Right. So unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so um {vocalsound} I'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board. Um just {disfmarker} This is the basic basic premise of a remote control. Um the basic function is to send messages to another system. Okay so much is clear. An energy source feeds an integrated circuit, like a chip, that can compose messages. {vocalsound} Often in the form of infrared bits. This is the most mostly used. Um there's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system. Um parts are cheaper as well. A user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages. This is where my people screwed up basically.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So I'm going to explain that on the board rather. Um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there. We'll start with an energy source. Right. Um which is usually a battery right? {vocalsound} Since it's not feasible to add a cable to that. This energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself {vocalsound}. Uh which can be buttons, whatever, which in fact controls a chip. Right? This is the user interface and there we have the chip. Um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp. That sends out the signal. Of course the signal differs accordingly. Um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp. And {disfmarker} Of course that's controlled, the chip itself is controlled by the user interface. The way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well, so that you know that it's working basically. You press something, you get a response. Which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices. Now this, what we're talking about here, or what I think should be discussed are these two components mostly. The the uh energy source for one thing can be altered. What we probably cannot alter is of course the infrared, the sending device basically, the infrared lamp. We cannot change the chip which controls the infrared lamp. Right? These two are components that we have to use, and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing. Um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device. It c it doesn't have to be there. This can be discussed as well. {vocalsound} The user interface. That's something we can also discuss. Um as we've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment. Speech recognition um interface, we don't know that. Or if we just do the usual button thing. Or we have a touch pad or something like that {disfmarker} that's something we can discuss. And of course the energy source. Batteries. Solar cells. Who knows? {vocalsound} Of course it's always a question whether these these components are in fact {vocalsound} available cheap enough, developed enough. But that's like I s I suppose rather up to marketing, and not to
Project Manager: So we could {disfmarker} the the
Industrial Designer: to the industrial design department.
Project Manager: the more complex we make it of course, the more expensive {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Expensive it's gonna be get uh. Yeah.
Project Manager: But people have said that they would {disfmarker} well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So possibly it might be worth the investment.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: I think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work.'Cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o {gap} if it's on your phone.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I agree. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: And you need to sort of take into light languages and then {vocalsound} different dialects I suppose as well.
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} myself I find, when you, h when there's something like spee speech recognition. Like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something. Sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and you say one for this, and you find yours, like you said, saying the same thing over and over and over. I find myself, especially if I'm in a crowd of people, looking really silly.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So maybe if you're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know, you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: And wou I don't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff. If you were watching something would you sort of be wanting {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Volume up. Volume down. Change the channel, you know channel up, channel down?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I I don't know.
Marketing: Another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they'd do it, but probably a lot of them that's actually their parents money. Like I don't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves, a fifteen year old you know.
User Interface: I think {disfmarker} As well it'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But practically I don't think it's {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's a, it's a gimmick factor that they like at first, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. It'll wear off.
Marketing: Gets old yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} Let's see here.
User Interface: Do you wanna put your cord back in?
Project Manager: Yeah I guess so.
Industrial Designer: Oh right. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Trade you.
Industrial Designer: {gap} go. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now I was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements. Um the remote's only gonna be for the television, which is good because we already decided {disfmarker} y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated, it's more cost, more costly. And your re uh research showed that you know most of the people don't even use it. I think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: So if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem. Um no teletext. Um {disfmarker} So we don't have to worry about that. Um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan, which is we put the fashion in electronics. And our corporate colours are grey and yellow. And we could probably get away with black too but {disfmarker} So those are the three um the three new requirements that that I was told we need to use. Um from all all three of your uh presentations, I think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting. We want something that looks good. Um we want something that's simple. We want something that you can find easily. Um {disfmarker} And the speech recognition I I guess is kind of uh give or take. It's gonna cost more. S the young the younger people say that they like it.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: But um it's probably, I would say, probably not worth the investment at this point in time. So maybe we should just do away with speech recognition. Um {disfmarker} And that way we can focus on our form.
User Interface: I did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing. Is that {disfmarker} if it came with maybe a holder or holster, whatever you wanna call it. Um that you you should put it back in. Your remote. But if you don't put it back in, you press something like a little button on that, and that just sort of sends out a beep {vocalsound} to find where it is or something. Just by infrared. That shouldn't be too complex I would've thought.
Project Manager: That'd be, that'd be good if we were going with our our ball.
User Interface: Yeah it would be quite good.
Project Manager: Or or with {disfmarker} you know I guess with any form that that would be good.
User Interface: The ball could sit on a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: You know that could be the charger. For you know
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote. And that would be {disfmarker} or solar. Or you know {disfmarker} However, however you wanted to go about it, the holder could also be the charging unit. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: With the locator button. Um and if it were the ball you'd no longer have to have a flat space on it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um like
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: if
Industrial Designer: you still do.
Project Manager: we still have the how to hold on to it
Industrial Designer: You s you still {disfmarker} W yeah. You put it on t on the couch table.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's gonna roll away.
Industrial Designer: While you're watching,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Rolls away
Industrial Designer: it's gonna roll off. So
Marketing: yeah.
Industrial Designer: that's not an issue really.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} So I guess after the meeting {vocalsound} we'll have some questionnaires. And uh and some summaries for for what's going on. Um then we'll take lunch. Then we can come back and uh work on our individual work. Um {disfmarker} I'll do the minutes. Uh let's see. It looks like you're already on your way for uh working with the components. Um chips, the what chips we need
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot. User interface concept, we want it to be something simple.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Minimal number of buttons. I guess our, I guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look, you know.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Did you have time earlier to to work on that. Did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Not really. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'll yeah I'll have a look, try {gap} look at the actual appearance in the next break.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: I th I I do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed. The ball is probably not a good idea.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: And even something that's held like that might be difficult.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So that I think it still has to be a variation. On maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring, as plain as a rectangle.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group? That way we could l I mean if it were, if we were shooting for young guys then it's um a certain look to the remote. Or girls or older people? Um {disfmarker} Would that {disfmarker} you think that would help us find um a specific form? That we would would wanna pick out?
User Interface: D I don't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching. I {gap} find anything more on that.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we'll have some info on that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. So um we know that the remote's gonna have to be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we'll just say we've got a colour scheme for it. Um yellow and {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you know yellow it's nice and bright, with the buttons being grey or black.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: And our slogan pasted somewhere on it, on the the bottom
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or the
User Interface: Bottom perhaps
Project Manager: you know. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Maybe we could sketch a {disfmarker} so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort. You know. Um maybe we could flare it or something. You know. So it's more {disfmarker} of course this will look like a bone then.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} go ahead and erase this. Um {disfmarker} Hope everyone memorised that uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} I mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones, and the shapes that the they've been going.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: They've gone from big brick block things, which is {gap} a remote control is, to sort of slinky small things.
Project Manager: Yeah everybody's got a mobile phone right? Except for me now. {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But they are all,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know, mobile phones um they've kind of taken a turn to where they're really small. Um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: But then again you don't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we're what we're stuck with. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Maybe we could go with a square or something. Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hm.
Project Manager: Um you know with minimal number of buttons. I guess you've got you know one through nine. For typing in your channels. Uh you've got volume, up and down. Channel up and down.
Marketing: Power.
Project Manager: Power. Usually at the top. Um a mute.
Industrial Designer: That's the classical design.
Project Manager: That's that's pretty much all you need I think. Um {disfmarker} A menu button, maybe.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: So you know. If you, if we want the remote to do other things like um {disfmarker} or I guess the T_V_ to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into T_V_s, we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in, press the menu button, scroll up and down to select it.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad.
Project Manager:'Kay so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Talk about maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} f look at that from the side, there maybe.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Which is technically the easiest option. Would probably be like a scrolling, little scrolling wheel like this.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Project Manager: Like a wheel on your mouse.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sort of like that.
Project Manager: Sort of.
Industrial Designer: You can even if we're coming from mice, we can even add a click function, where you, in order to verify the information you just press it down. Right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'S a good idea.
Industrial Designer: Also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing, if you wanna make it square for the looks of it, then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing, you add a little bulge down here. Just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: I know. You know what I'm getting at here,
Project Manager: Look g yeah. Looks good.
Industrial Designer: fel look at it from the side. It's {gap} like that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} Then you hold it in your hand like this. And maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the {disfmarker} or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side.
User Interface: Yes {vocalsound}
Project Manager: To the thumb. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. Mm.
User Interface: To the thumb yeah. Maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important, the smaller here.
Industrial Designer: Right. You can also have it, maybe, talking about mobile phones again, sliding open. With the lesser used functions on this part,
User Interface: Yeah. Behind.
Industrial Designer: and then it slides into that part. And out.
User Interface: Definitely. {gap} just like o on a sort of side view. Something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better. So you know you just sort of have your hand
Industrial Designer: Mm well I was just thinking, this this of course causes
User Interface: Yeah. Right on the {disfmarker} and your thumb would be up here type thing.
Industrial Designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually. So.
User Interface: Yeah that's also true. {gap} instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: But I mean {gap} the older so
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} is everyone {disfmarker} who in here's right-handed, left-handed? You guys all right-handed?
Marketing: Right.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: Right-handed,
Project Manager: Yeah. So
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: I'm left-handed but I, so I can say that most things are designed for right-handed people.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That's right.
Marketing: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like the written language. {vocalsound} Or English.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote. {vocalsound} Special order.
Project Manager: Maybe. Ow. I would say I mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um but that's that's good. That's {disfmarker} w I think we've got a kind of a good plan there. Um {disfmarker} At least for what buttons we're gonna use. Um {disfmarker} So we've got uh {disfmarker} I like the scroll, the scroll action and the {disfmarker} {gap}.
User Interface: I mean I'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of {disfmarker} that sort of {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the sort of early idea we had, with the way that was more like that, whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb. So you'd have your, you'd put your hand into there with the thumb there. And then your thumb would do {disfmarker} you'd have all the buttons sort of round here. And that I think could work. On any hand. If you just had it like wrapped round there. Left or right.
Project Manager: Yeah. Kinda like holding a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Right. {vocalsound} That minimises it size-wise as well.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Minimise its size. It could be you know really quite small.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Then there's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing. If we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one. You give it the full functions in here, and just a couple of functions in there. Like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down, uh volume, and on-off.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: Zapping functions.
Industrial Designer: That's it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Could be good.
Project Manager: So two remotes in one. But then would be easier to lose one or the other.
Industrial Designer: That's right. Means the big one has to be sufficiently big. And perhaps heavy, so you can't move it around.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It actually is your coffee table.
Industrial Designer: Make it a piece of furniture.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} yes. Yes, there you go.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Or a statue or something. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Well we need to finish up here. Um {disfmarker} So for the next {disfmarker} So for the next um {disfmarker} before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on {disfmarker} you're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we've got going on. Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Manuel you're going to work on the components for for what we're gonna use.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: Let's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand {disfmarker} let's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece. So one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand. Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And Ryan you work on um how how well they'll work with the us with the user. So both of those concepts.
User Interface: How well it'll work yeah.
Project Manager: And uh okay I think we made some good progress here.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} see you in {disfmarker} I dunno. I gu I guess we'll take lunch in about uh half an hour. {vocalsound} Or I guess we'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we'll probably have another meeting.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. | From the last meeting, Project Manager concluded that the team needed to design a modern, interesting, distinctive, sturdy, positioning remote control. In order to be distinctive, the team can adopt a spherical or keyboard shape design. Based on the market research, Project Manager thought that a rechargeable battery or solar cell is necessary, and the setting of the positioner and the reduction of button number is feasible. Project Manager wanted the remote control to be used only for TV, which can save the budget. For voice recognition, he thought it was unaffordable for young people, so the design was abandoned. | qmsum |
Summarize the team's discussion on the specific shape design of the remote control.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh.
User Interface: Du
Project Manager: Okay. Thanks for coming to this meeting.
Marketing: Hm.
Project Manager: S how we doing on our remote?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We have some {disfmarker} we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want.
User Interface: Uh we yes s I've lo {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I've done the role that I was asked to do anyway.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright let's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting. See if I can't get things uh moving along here a little bit better. Um I'll go over what we went over last time, which shouldn't take long. Then I believe each of you have a presentation. Um I've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote, what they want. Um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do, um and how it's going to do it hopefully. And uh then we'll have the closing. {vocalsound} Um which we'll have forty minutes for. Uh let's see, the last meeting we went over um {vocalsound} who was responsible for what. I'm responsible for leading the meetings, keeping the notes, uh and coming up with the final presentation. Um Corinne is our Marketing Expert. She's gonna figure out what what um the consumer wants. Um {vocalsound} Ryan is our User Interface Designer. And Manuel is the Industrial Designer. So you're gonna come up with the ideas Ryan, and you're gonna pick'em apart.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we decided our remote, uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want. Um we want to be modern, um fun, different. Uh it needs to be sturdy, um easy to find, so we gonna have that locator function. Um and we want to be different. Um and then we went over a couple of different ideas. Ball-shaped phone. The keyboard shape. Um we decided that it should probably be one-handed. Something we could use with one hand. Um and that was our last meeting. So um why don't um {disfmarker} Do each of you have a presentation?
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Okay. I'll hand it off to you and um {disfmarker} Does anyone {disfmarker} do you wanna go first?
Marketing: Sure.
Project Manager: So we can maybe see what uh what the people want.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What was it? Function?
Industrial Designer: Eight. F_ eight.
Marketing: F_ eight? Well. {vocalsound} How do I get it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Slide show.
Project Manager: To go to the next one?
Marketing: Oh right right right.
Project Manager: Yeah you click on that guy.
Marketing: That one?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Okay. Alright. Well, this is my report, which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that I was sent. Oh gosh, I've no idea. {vocalsound} G
User Interface: Just press the arrow keys I think. Usually goes to it.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry I actually need to see something else on my screen.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hit F_ eight again.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think.
Marketing: And then? Again?
Project Manager: Yeah. You want it to be on both screens, or just just yours?
Marketing: No I want something else on mine. Is that possible?
Project Manager: Yeah but I think you have to hit escape. And then you can {disfmarker} Yeah.
Marketing: Okay but now you don't have that.
Project Manager: Oh hit F_ eight again.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sorry guys.
Project Manager: I know. I did the same thing. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then it should come up here shortly.'Kay.
Marketing: {vocalsound} So is there no way I can give you the slideshow and
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen?
Marketing: yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: Oh well.
Project Manager: I'm not sure. You could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time I think.
Marketing: Yeah. It's okay. Okay. Um so first of all, the method that I used was by doing some marketing research,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted. And then some internet research. And I was sent a report that was {disfmarker} I think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed. And so I will show you some of the results from that, which I think will be helpful. Um okay here are some of the findings. They said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls. And seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly. Which is a fairly significant number I would say. And eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy. So I think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look, I think that's definitely important. Um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user. Seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot. And if anyone could clarify what that means?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just jus
User Interface: Is is it j just just
Marketing: Zap, does that just mean like changing the channel?
User Interface: just using it
Industrial Designer: yeah.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: Okay. {vocalsound} Um and fifty percent of the users say that they're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control. And there was something else, they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons. And some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all. Of course channel selection is used the most frequently. And then teletext was the next. Volume and then power. And then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used. So I think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button. Um the biggest user frustrations, as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere, and so I think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea. They said it take {disfmarker} thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote. And twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for R_S_I_. {vocalsound}
User Interface: A repetitive strain injury.
Marketing: What is it?
User Interface: Just repetitive strain injury. I think. That's what I guess.
Marketing: Okay. Okay. And so bas okay. Um as far as speech recognition goes, um the younger group looks like they're all for it. From the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more. And it kind of just went down incrementally. The groups at {disfmarker} the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay, so maybe we could discuss this and think {disfmarker} and decide if we think it's worth investing in this. At least if we're targeting the younger groups. And so in conclusion. Some things that I drew from this are that I think we were correct. We definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance, since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control. Um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore. So you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room. Uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons, get rid of the ones that don't seem to be serving much purpose. And then lastly I thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition. And that's it.
Project Manager:'Kay. Very nice. Now we actually have some ideas of what what people want, what we should focus on. Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wait can I look at that real quick? {gap}.
Marketing: Oh yeah. Sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed?
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing:'Kay.
User Interface: Having just listened to what Corinne just said, I'll draw on some of the things as well. {vocalsound} {gap} Some things that sort of relevant to what I wanna say.'Kay so I'm just gonna yeah approach the technical functions design. Um {vocalsound} the method I used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And t s simplest approach that I came to is is to change, programme and operate an electronic device remotely. I mean that's an obvious thing to say, but it's not attached to the device that you want to control. Um I had some things sent to me. Not very much. To look at similar devices. Um defined in some them. And then the personal preferences that I will suggest. Um we discussed a universal one. Um like it's just been brought up again then. But I think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design, and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it, um because you'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies. I'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself, but you have to {disfmarker} i they're a nightmare to use. You have to set them, reset them to everything. Um and that would only add buttons. Whereas I think the aim is to take away buttons. So I think it'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for T_V_s. Um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people, manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications, if if the aim is to get something that's unique in design. Um {disfmarker} Okay here here's just two pictures of remote controls. They're just simple T_V_ remote controls. But one is uh user-centred. That is the one on the left. And you can straight away see there's less buttons. And the other one is {gap} engineer-centred where that's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it's trying to control um {disfmarker} {gap} which appeals more to the product that we want, and on what the {gap} have said and the market research and stuff {gap} probably looking at something that should be user-centred. Fewer buttons, simpler to use, and if ten percent um is hidden away {disfmarker} if ten percent is what's used, maybe the other fifty percent, the buttons that are used very rarely like programming, they could be hidden maybe under {disfmarker} some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they're hidden away. And the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across. Um and finally, um uh sort I've sort of covered that, our product I think should be user interface orientated. Um {disfmarker} Like I said to concentrate on T_V_ remote control, a universal remote might be too complex. Um and as what it, the major findings {gap} market researchers have said, it's the image and the appearance that people di dislike. So that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend. And that's it.
Industrial Designer: {gap} cable there. Thank you.
Project Manager: What was your last conclusion on that one? Focus on uh the i
User Interface: On something on the image of it.
Project Manager: the image of it.
User Interface: Uh the f the actual design.
Project Manager:'Kay. Good. Good.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Gonna talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there. Right. So unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so um {vocalsound} I'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board. Um just {disfmarker} This is the basic basic premise of a remote control. Um the basic function is to send messages to another system. Okay so much is clear. An energy source feeds an integrated circuit, like a chip, that can compose messages. {vocalsound} Often in the form of infrared bits. This is the most mostly used. Um there's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system. Um parts are cheaper as well. A user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages. This is where my people screwed up basically.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So I'm going to explain that on the board rather. Um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there. We'll start with an energy source. Right. Um which is usually a battery right? {vocalsound} Since it's not feasible to add a cable to that. This energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself {vocalsound}. Uh which can be buttons, whatever, which in fact controls a chip. Right? This is the user interface and there we have the chip. Um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp. That sends out the signal. Of course the signal differs accordingly. Um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp. And {disfmarker} Of course that's controlled, the chip itself is controlled by the user interface. The way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well, so that you know that it's working basically. You press something, you get a response. Which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices. Now this, what we're talking about here, or what I think should be discussed are these two components mostly. The the uh energy source for one thing can be altered. What we probably cannot alter is of course the infrared, the sending device basically, the infrared lamp. We cannot change the chip which controls the infrared lamp. Right? These two are components that we have to use, and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing. Um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device. It c it doesn't have to be there. This can be discussed as well. {vocalsound} The user interface. That's something we can also discuss. Um as we've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment. Speech recognition um interface, we don't know that. Or if we just do the usual button thing. Or we have a touch pad or something like that {disfmarker} that's something we can discuss. And of course the energy source. Batteries. Solar cells. Who knows? {vocalsound} Of course it's always a question whether these these components are in fact {vocalsound} available cheap enough, developed enough. But that's like I s I suppose rather up to marketing, and not to
Project Manager: So we could {disfmarker} the the
Industrial Designer: to the industrial design department.
Project Manager: the more complex we make it of course, the more expensive {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Expensive it's gonna be get uh. Yeah.
Project Manager: But people have said that they would {disfmarker} well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So possibly it might be worth the investment.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: I think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work.'Cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o {gap} if it's on your phone.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I agree. Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: And you need to sort of take into light languages and then {vocalsound} different dialects I suppose as well.
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} myself I find, when you, h when there's something like spee speech recognition. Like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something. Sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and you say one for this, and you find yours, like you said, saying the same thing over and over and over. I find myself, especially if I'm in a crowd of people, looking really silly.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So maybe if you're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know, you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: And wou I don't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff. If you were watching something would you sort of be wanting {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Volume up. Volume down. Change the channel, you know channel up, channel down?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: I I don't know.
Marketing: Another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they'd do it, but probably a lot of them that's actually their parents money. Like I don't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves, a fifteen year old you know.
User Interface: I think {disfmarker} As well it'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But practically I don't think it's {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's a, it's a gimmick factor that they like at first, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. It'll wear off.
Marketing: Gets old yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} Let's see here.
User Interface: Do you wanna put your cord back in?
Project Manager: Yeah I guess so.
Industrial Designer: Oh right. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Trade you.
Industrial Designer: {gap} go. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now I was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements. Um the remote's only gonna be for the television, which is good because we already decided {disfmarker} y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated, it's more cost, more costly. And your re uh research showed that you know most of the people don't even use it. I think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: So if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem. Um no teletext. Um {disfmarker} So we don't have to worry about that. Um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan, which is we put the fashion in electronics. And our corporate colours are grey and yellow. And we could probably get away with black too but {disfmarker} So those are the three um the three new requirements that that I was told we need to use. Um from all all three of your uh presentations, I think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting. We want something that looks good. Um we want something that's simple. We want something that you can find easily. Um {disfmarker} And the speech recognition I I guess is kind of uh give or take. It's gonna cost more. S the young the younger people say that they like it.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: But um it's probably, I would say, probably not worth the investment at this point in time. So maybe we should just do away with speech recognition. Um {disfmarker} And that way we can focus on our form.
User Interface: I did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing. Is that {disfmarker} if it came with maybe a holder or holster, whatever you wanna call it. Um that you you should put it back in. Your remote. But if you don't put it back in, you press something like a little button on that, and that just sort of sends out a beep {vocalsound} to find where it is or something. Just by infrared. That shouldn't be too complex I would've thought.
Project Manager: That'd be, that'd be good if we were going with our our ball.
User Interface: Yeah it would be quite good.
Project Manager: Or or with {disfmarker} you know I guess with any form that that would be good.
User Interface: The ball could sit on a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: You know that could be the charger. For you know
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote. And that would be {disfmarker} or solar. Or you know {disfmarker} However, however you wanted to go about it, the holder could also be the charging unit. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: With the locator button. Um and if it were the ball you'd no longer have to have a flat space on it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um like
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: if
Industrial Designer: you still do.
Project Manager: we still have the how to hold on to it
Industrial Designer: You s you still {disfmarker} W yeah. You put it on t on the couch table.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's gonna roll away.
Industrial Designer: While you're watching,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Rolls away
Industrial Designer: it's gonna roll off. So
Marketing: yeah.
Industrial Designer: that's not an issue really.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} So I guess after the meeting {vocalsound} we'll have some questionnaires. And uh and some summaries for for what's going on. Um then we'll take lunch. Then we can come back and uh work on our individual work. Um {disfmarker} I'll do the minutes. Uh let's see. It looks like you're already on your way for uh working with the components. Um chips, the what chips we need
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot. User interface concept, we want it to be something simple.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Minimal number of buttons. I guess our, I guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look, you know.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Did you have time earlier to to work on that. Did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Not really. {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'll yeah I'll have a look, try {gap} look at the actual appearance in the next break.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: I th I I do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed. The ball is probably not a good idea.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: And even something that's held like that might be difficult.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So that I think it still has to be a variation. On maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring, as plain as a rectangle.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group? That way we could l I mean if it were, if we were shooting for young guys then it's um a certain look to the remote. Or girls or older people? Um {disfmarker} Would that {disfmarker} you think that would help us find um a specific form? That we would would wanna pick out?
User Interface: D I don't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching. I {gap} find anything more on that.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we'll have some info on that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. So um we know that the remote's gonna have to be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we'll just say we've got a colour scheme for it. Um yellow and {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you know yellow it's nice and bright, with the buttons being grey or black.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: And our slogan pasted somewhere on it, on the the bottom
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or the
User Interface: Bottom perhaps
Project Manager: you know. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: Maybe we could sketch a {disfmarker} so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort. You know. Um maybe we could flare it or something. You know. So it's more {disfmarker} of course this will look like a bone then.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} go ahead and erase this. Um {disfmarker} Hope everyone memorised that uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} I mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones, and the shapes that the they've been going.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: They've gone from big brick block things, which is {gap} a remote control is, to sort of slinky small things.
Project Manager: Yeah everybody's got a mobile phone right? Except for me now. {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But they are all,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know, mobile phones um they've kind of taken a turn to where they're really small. Um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: But then again you don't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we're what we're stuck with. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Maybe we could go with a square or something. Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hm.
Project Manager: Um you know with minimal number of buttons. I guess you've got you know one through nine. For typing in your channels. Uh you've got volume, up and down. Channel up and down.
Marketing: Power.
Project Manager: Power. Usually at the top. Um a mute.
Industrial Designer: That's the classical design.
Project Manager: That's that's pretty much all you need I think. Um {disfmarker} A menu button, maybe.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: So you know. If you, if we want the remote to do other things like um {disfmarker} or I guess the T_V_ to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into T_V_s, we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in, press the menu button, scroll up and down to select it.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad.
Project Manager:'Kay so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Talk about maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} f look at that from the side, there maybe.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Which is technically the easiest option. Would probably be like a scrolling, little scrolling wheel like this.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Project Manager: Like a wheel on your mouse.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, sort of like that.
Project Manager: Sort of.
Industrial Designer: You can even if we're coming from mice, we can even add a click function, where you, in order to verify the information you just press it down. Right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'S a good idea.
Industrial Designer: Also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing, if you wanna make it square for the looks of it, then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing, you add a little bulge down here. Just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: I know. You know what I'm getting at here,
Project Manager: Look g yeah. Looks good.
Industrial Designer: fel look at it from the side. It's {gap} like that.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} Then you hold it in your hand like this. And maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the {disfmarker} or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side.
User Interface: Yes {vocalsound}
Project Manager: To the thumb. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. Mm.
User Interface: To the thumb yeah. Maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important, the smaller here.
Industrial Designer: Right. You can also have it, maybe, talking about mobile phones again, sliding open. With the lesser used functions on this part,
User Interface: Yeah. Behind.
Industrial Designer: and then it slides into that part. And out.
User Interface: Definitely. {gap} just like o on a sort of side view. Something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better. So you know you just sort of have your hand
Industrial Designer: Mm well I was just thinking, this this of course causes
User Interface: Yeah. Right on the {disfmarker} and your thumb would be up here type thing.
Industrial Designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually. So.
User Interface: Yeah that's also true. {gap} instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: But I mean {gap} the older so
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} is everyone {disfmarker} who in here's right-handed, left-handed? You guys all right-handed?
Marketing: Right.
Industrial Designer: Right.
User Interface: Right-handed,
Project Manager: Yeah. So
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: I'm left-handed but I, so I can say that most things are designed for right-handed people.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That's right.
Marketing: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like the written language. {vocalsound} Or English.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote. {vocalsound} Special order.
Project Manager: Maybe. Ow. I would say I mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um but that's that's good. That's {disfmarker} w I think we've got a kind of a good plan there. Um {disfmarker} At least for what buttons we're gonna use. Um {disfmarker} So we've got uh {disfmarker} I like the scroll, the scroll action and the {disfmarker} {gap}.
User Interface: I mean I'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of {disfmarker} that sort of {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the sort of early idea we had, with the way that was more like that, whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb. So you'd have your, you'd put your hand into there with the thumb there. And then your thumb would do {disfmarker} you'd have all the buttons sort of round here. And that I think could work. On any hand. If you just had it like wrapped round there. Left or right.
Project Manager: Yeah. Kinda like holding a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Right. {vocalsound} That minimises it size-wise as well.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Minimise its size. It could be you know really quite small.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Then there's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing. If we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one. You give it the full functions in here, and just a couple of functions in there. Like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down, uh volume, and on-off.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Hmm.
User Interface: Zapping functions.
Industrial Designer: That's it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Maybe. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Could be good.
Project Manager: So two remotes in one. But then would be easier to lose one or the other.
Industrial Designer: That's right. Means the big one has to be sufficiently big. And perhaps heavy, so you can't move it around.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It actually is your coffee table.
Industrial Designer: Make it a piece of furniture.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} yes. Yes, there you go.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Or a statue or something. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Well we need to finish up here. Um {disfmarker} So for the next {disfmarker} So for the next um {disfmarker} before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on {disfmarker} you're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we've got going on. Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Manuel you're going to work on the components for for what we're gonna use.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: Let's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand {disfmarker} let's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece. So one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand. Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And Ryan you work on um how how well they'll work with the us with the user. So both of those concepts.
User Interface: How well it'll work yeah.
Project Manager: And uh okay I think we made some good progress here.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} see you in {disfmarker} I dunno. I gu I guess we'll take lunch in about uh half an hour. {vocalsound} Or I guess we'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we'll probably have another meeting.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. | The project manager thought that the shape of the remote control can be designed as a bone or cube to reduce the number of buttons, and add the company's yellow and grey color. Marketing believed that anti lost equipment can be designed. Since it's a one-handed project, Marketing proposed to design a special version for left-hand users. User Interface thought that the sphere is not suitable for one hand use, the rectangle variant can be used. The more important the button is, the bigger it is and the closer it is to the thumb for easy operation. | qmsum |
What did Project Manager think of the scroll wheel suggested by User Interface?
Project Manager: Okay everybody is ready? {vocalsound} Good morning again. So, today we are going to have a f second meeting. Oh Michael, hi.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: You're late. You have a good reason for that?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Very good {vocalsound}. {vocalsound} Okay, let's have a look to the agenda today. {vocalsound} So, we are going to have a meeting about the functional design. Um so first before starting I w just going to uh to go quickly to {disfmarker} through the minutes of previous meeting. So uh {vocalsound} basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control, but I have new um new i inputs for {disfmarker} about that topics. I goin I'm going to share with you. {vocalsound} And uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um Industrial Designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design. You showed us {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: you ar you you prepare something for us?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yep.
Project Manager: The U_I_ guy also uh work on that, yeah, and for the mar our Marketing Expert should deliver some specs.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Alright {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations. But first I would like quickly to uh to decide of {disfmarker} to give a name to the project. So, I just put d quickly Remo, but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should {disfmarker} we could discuss quickly. Any ideas?
User Interface: Uh the Powerstick.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Powerstick, yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What else? What else?
Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Maybe a Spanish name would work well.
Marketing: Mm I was thinking of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Especially if we're selling into the U_S_ market becasue there's a lot of Spanish speakers there. Maybe something that sounds cool in English but sounds funny in Spanish.
Marketing: Mando.
User Interface: Mando.
Project Manager: Mango? Mango?
User Interface: What is that?
Marketing: Mando.
Project Manager: Mando. M_A_? M_A_?
Marketing: A*_N_ yeah D_O.
Project Manager: M_ D_O_. Mm, okay.
Marketing: It doesn't it doesn't sound cool for me,
Project Manager: What does it mean? Oh.
Marketing: but maybe for a Spanish {disfmarker} for I {disfmarker} for {disfmarker}
User Interface: What does it mean in Spanish?
Marketing: Control.
User Interface: Control.
Project Manager: Hmm. Nice.
User Interface: Okay.'Cause it also {disfmarker} like in English it sounds like you know the man's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote
Marketing: But {disfmarker} mm, yeah.
User Interface: so it might {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mando sounds Latino. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: The Mando.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So, let's go for Mando? Yeah? No objection?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah that's {gap}.
Project Manager: Great. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: And we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special, so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the O_ as like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay, I think this is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Although you don't wanna cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: do you? So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah they are the most T_V_ watcher. So we should be careful.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, I think this is more a question of of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Marketing.
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah
Project Manager: I I think this is more a question of of look and feel.
Marketing: it uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Something that should be addressed later We should we should go to other {disfmarker} for the other topics.
Marketing: Yeah because if the product will be international {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well that's the thing. We need to know who we're selling it to before we can really decide on a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay, so let's stick f to Man Mando for the name
User Interface: Um.
Project Manager: and we'll see for the for the look and feel later. So let's go for the three presentations right now. So, who want to start?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So maybe we could start with the market, yeah.
Marketing: Maybe maybe I should uh start. Yeah. Mm. Okay.
Project Manager: Okay so I have your slides somewhere?
Marketing: Yeah. Should be in participant four.
Project Manager: Participant four. {vocalsound} This one?
Marketing: Yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Uh.
Project Manager: S that's coming. Uh {gap}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: okay. Great.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Okay so yeah I will I will give a brief outline about what I what I prepared for this meeting.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: For the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements. I prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls. And also I di I did a study with {disfmarker} for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been {disfmarker} have remained the same for the last five, ten years. There is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. Sh next slide?
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {vocalsound} more {disfmarker} most of the people think that remote controls are ugly, thoroughly. So and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control, which is which is good and it's interesting point. Also the people are worried about about the R*_S_I_ disease, which is if you repeat the sa the same movement, which is not a {disfmarker} with a not very appropriate device, you you will have problems whe when you will get old. So s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control. They are also {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often, so I think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to {disfmarker} any beep any alarm or something incorporated to {disfmarker} with the remote control every time it it get lost.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: And also I found that young people {disfmarker} the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: So {vocalsound} {vocalsound} in my opinion the Mando {disfmarker} this Mando shouldn't be very small because the smaller it is, the more like {disfmarker} the the liklier it is to get lost. Liklier or more likely?
User Interface: More likely. {gap}
Marketing: {gap} likely. Okay. Uh {vocalsound} people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but {vocalsound} they they shouldn't they shouldn't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control. Also the z the design should fit the hand shape. So it may be interesting to to think in a {disfmarker} in both prototypes, for right and left handed people.
User Interface: Well th the on the thing is though, most remote controls are used by more than one person. So unless you're kind of targeting single people you know you're gonna maybe
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: cut out some {disfmarker} a lot of your market.
Marketing: I dunno I th Anyway I think it could be int interesting to to release some {disfmarker} a a small fraction of of this remote controls.
Industrial Designer: Well maybe it could be a universal design.
Marketing: Sorry?
Industrial Designer: A universal design, which is which is good for both the hands.
User Interface: Still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand, right?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah? That's right, whether it's left hand or right hand,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but but {vocalsound} don't you think that the two points are clashing, one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small?
Marketing: Sorry?
Industrial Designer: The first and the third point, they are clashing.
User Interface: Well it can still be a {gap}, you can still extend past the hand.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Uh.
Marketing: Like uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So fitting the hand doesn't mean much then.
User Interface: Well it means {disfmarker} like, this remote here is kind of {disfmarker} is very thin and long so instead of having {disfmarker} you know you might have it kind of {disfmarker} a bit bigger
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah, like {disfmarker}
User Interface: or, you know, with maybe some some finger molds or something.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So it means design should be similar to the traditional ones?
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Little sleek, longer?
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: And it should fit the hand.
Marketing: No no I was thinking of so like something {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Something with the shape of the palm?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm.
Marketing: yeah.
User Interface: Some finger grips maybe.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: You could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything,
Project Manager: On the sides.
Marketing: Yeah yeah. It sh it shouldn't it shouldn't be symmetric symmetrical.
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm.
Marketing: Not anymore. That's what {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: And then finally {disfmarker}
Marketing: And finally, the incorporation of a L_C_D_ or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting, but I don't know if the budget would be large enough.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. First I'm just wondering about the L_C_D_ stuff because uh because {disfmarker}
Marketing: But most of {disfmarker} yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology.
Project Manager: Yeah, so maybe it's a good time for me to uh {vocalsound} to bring you to some new uh new informations. We had the new requirements from the {disfmarker} so uh from the head offices of the company, and so they wanted {disfmarker} so they want to um {disfmarker} they would like to be restricted to T_V_.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, I dunno if you had this information already. No,
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to T_V_ only because of time limitations. Um they want also uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Actually this marketing report is restricted to T_V_ remote controls.
Project Manager: Excellent. So we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally, {vocalsound} it should be clear that the corporate image, that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I was still uh I was still working on this uh twenty five Euro price point because I think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there, this is quite a low uh price if if we're {disfmarker} maybe I can get to this in my presentation though,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Sure sure.
User Interface: but um yeah.
Project Manager: So maybe we can jump to your presentations, right now.
User Interface: Yep. Okay.
Project Manager: Okay so let's keep in mind about tha that that {disfmarker} this last point about L_C_D_ and speech uh reco
User Interface: Yeah. I think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think {disfmarker} if you're watching T_V_ you're gonna have a lot of this uh background noise from the T_V_ which might interfere with the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry, what is your {gap}?
User Interface: Uh participant three. You might have some background noise from the T_V_ which will make the speech recognition much uh harder, so.
Marketing: Yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate, so {disfmarker} yeah yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh you press a press a button to talk, and the the T_V_ the T_V_ {vocalsound} sound turns off. {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah uh channel fifty.
Industrial Designer: No it could be command control kind of thing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated. Means you say {disfmarker} you should say like does that, remote control being on or be on kind of thing, and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Because this kind of thing means speech is there from the T_V_ also.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So there should be something command controlled, you start and then you stop.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's like V_I_ editor, you are having two modes similarly.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's just lying idle.
Project Manager: Okay Michael.
User Interface: Okay, so, could I describe the mouse maybe {gap} be easier to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sorry?
User Interface: could I use the mouse, or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um yeah.
User Interface: Mm. Thanks. Okay.
Project Manager: The wheel doesn't work.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Great {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay so um while uh researching this this topic I first of all just thought of a couple of things that I would like to see in a remote, and just uh looked to see if they're actually available in any current remotes, and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on Epinions dot com, which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site. So um there's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant, but it's not really {disfmarker} it's by no means uh mm you know {vocalsound} on it's own in being so expensive. There are a lot of expensive remote controls out there.
Project Manager: {gap} Looks like a P_D_A_ {gap}?
User Interface: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah it doe it's {disfmarker} well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the L_C_D_ screen except for the really really kind of main functions, which have a couple of of their own buttons. Um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market, I know we're working on television remote, but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these L_C_D_ screens which kind of helps when you're using multiple uh devices I suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions {disfmarker} d different functions on the screen at different times. But um the thing that I find most interesting about this remote control, and it's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide, but it has a scroll wheel on it, which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel, which I think is {disfmarker} it's a really kind of important design aspect um is {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}'Cause the thing is what a {vocalsound} what we {disfmarker} the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do. And obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel.
Industrial Designer: Change the channels.
User Interface: Now um
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: uh the {disfmarker} I think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel.'Cause I know when I um when I use the remote to change the channel I very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad. I usually use the up and down
Industrial Designer: Mmm-hmm mm-hmm. Yeah yeah.
User Interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number, and then two numbers, so that's just uh {disfmarker} it's annoying. So I think a scroll wheel is is quite handy. Now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an L_C_D_ screen, and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: One possibility, if we {disfmarker} now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff can't be done for twenty five Eu uh Euro, but one possibility is to download program information into the L_C_D_ screen so that instead of actually saying I want to I want to go to channel thirty seven because I know this programme's on, you know, often you don't know what ch what channel it's on, or you don't know what's on. If you have a list of of programs on your L_C_D_ screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel. So if you think about {disfmarker} it's kind of like a {disfmarker} you know in mobile phones now you don't use {disfmarker} you don't remember people's phone number, you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So this would be pretty {disfmarker} kind of a handy thing to have, but um we we really need t to discuss the price. So, I mean there are {vocalsound} there are uh cheaper {disfmarker} this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it's it's it's very simple, there's only a few buttons, but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context. So this is something else we might wanna consider, is really kind of limiting the number of buttons, because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on Epinions. It it's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really I think people want to be able to find the button they're looking for without even looking at the remote control. And {gap} was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks, but I think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important, but also the number of buttons. So if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want.
Industrial Designer: But there is one problem {gap} then the user has to understand each of that functionality.
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah well we w
Industrial Designer: Because the same button is doing too many things.
User Interface: Yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we're only doing uh a television remote control. Um I think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time, but contains the extra buttons like, say, the number buttons for instance. Um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I I would {disfmarker} if I had my perfect remote control, I'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they're just in the way.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: They don't really do anything. Maybe you know I {disfmarker} although I do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever, but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} but I think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum, but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device. Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: H I think I think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control shouldn't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the {disfmarker} see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it's very difficult to learn very difficult to {disfmarker} very different build {disfmarker} very different to the traditional {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It does sampling out of the {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well I guess that depends on how you market it. If you {vocalsound} if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can, you know, navigate to a program without the numbers, then people might say that looks pretty easy.
Marketing: If y
Project Manager: Okay, can you continue, please Mi?
User Interface: So, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: yep. Um okay, so, I think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this {disfmarker} a programme driven interface rather than the channel number. So if we can have a higher priced uh remote control I think that would really be worth uh {disfmarker} something that would be worth implementing. Um mm there's the L_C_D_ screen, um which maybe maybe is too expensive, um but I think also at the scroll wheel, I haven't mentioned it here, the scroll wheel could be used without an L_C_D_ screen, just for changing channel numbers easily. I think even that,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean, that would be a fairly cheap thing, compared to an L_C_D_ screen, to implement,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: um but I think that would be quite useful as well. And the other thing, you say we need to we need to keep it just television, but I think one {disfmarker} maybe one option, since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device, is you know there's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of {disfmarker} you can have with technology, and maybe we wanna make it something that's {vocalsound} extensible to do other tasks. Say you have like um {vocalsound} a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can, say uh, change the lighting in the room. You know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra, so that it doesn't have to be part of the initial development, but, you know, later on you could you can you know you {disfmarker} also, selling the potential of the device. Then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights, I dunno, close the windows, whatever, turn the heating on, and um, I think that's something we may need to have as as {disfmarker} at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool, since we say we're putting the fashion in electronics.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Okay. Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} {gap} you want to go?
Industrial Designer: Yep. So {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh, that means on my own I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This one?
Industrial Designer: yeah, it should be.
Project Manager: Great. No, not that one. {gap} you are two.
Industrial Designer: Two.
Project Manager: Alright. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types, one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing {disfmarker} doing some he is knowing about that technology. So he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this, and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being {disfmarker} sitting on the on the remote. So the old kind of users who don't want to have any changes, it can it can be useful for them, and the new users, as uh our Marketing Expert was saying, they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing.
Project Manager: Okay, sorry to interrupt you, but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel.
Industrial Designer: That's right. So anyway, that didn't come into my mind,
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: so th that is a possibility. These could be other kind of interfaces.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Means we can have, depending on the cost, how much we can afford, we can have different kind of interfaces. So spe buttons are something which is very {disfmarker} everybody is familiar with. So if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five Euros money which we are thinking. Otherwise we are just like others in the market. So anyway that is the first, user interface could be of more than one type, and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which cannot be done now actually. So apart from the speech, we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons. Now for buttons, normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required. And for voice, limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote.
Project Manager: Yeah. That increases the the cost also.
Industrial Designer: Uh that's right. But uh means we have to see how much {disfmarker} what kind of microphones and stuff like that.
Project Manager: Do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well {disfmarker} of such technologies is enough?
Industrial Designer: Uh yes, if it is limited vocabulary usually it's enough.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah we we can uh target, means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc
Project Manager: Well wh uh I imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control.
Industrial Designer: That's right. No it it could be little d yeah it could be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So it could be s a few centimetres.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets, though,
Industrial Designer: That's right. That's right.
User Interface: because, I'm not sure exactly where we're gonna sell this, but I presume it's not gonna just be English speaking countries.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: So then you have to s you know, you have to train models for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm. Uh it's more like, means there are different speech technologies which are existing so D_T_W_ could be kind of which is the easiest. So you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself, and {vocalsound} it's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is, instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Project Manager: This is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion.
Industrial Designer: So we can That's right. Yep.
Project Manager: Okay, next. Uh that finished?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: No?
Industrial Designer: No no. Components.
Project Manager: Components?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So, will you go to the next slide?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes sure.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so. We are having a power button and the switch {vocalsound}, which is not much,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then we are having the {gap} which is to indicate whether the power is on or not. And then there are two kind of things which can be {disfmarker} so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we could not put that. So now where the A_S_R_ decoder is sitting, similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there. So there is A_S_R_ decoder which could be there, and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller, and then there could be buttons, and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format. And then there is there is the chip which is sitting, the green one, and it converts it into bit codes, and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So this is the easiest design the there could be. So th an A_S_R_ decoder we can have things in {gap}. To have different technologies. So this was the {disfmarker} my personal preference was that we can have A_S_R_ sitting there on the remote control.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You know I guess you could actually train the remote control as you're using it by saying you know {vocalsound} turn volume up, and you press the uh press the button
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well, by speaking and doing {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So these are the slight problems.
Project Manager: So your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies?
Industrial Designer: Because {disfmarker} yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means {disfmarker} though I don't have much idea, but as he {disfmarker} the uh Marketing Expert presentation was {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five Euros everyo {vocalsound} everyone will s will buy it.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Actually I'm not so sure
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So if we go with just the {disfmarker}
User Interface: because I'm the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm sure.
User Interface: you know if I was using a remote control to, say, turn the volume up because I can't hear it very well, I don't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when I'm when I'm {disfmarker} instead of pressing up on on a remote control. You know if there's some there's some dialogue all of a sudden that I can't hear, I'm trying to actually find out what's being said,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons, it's about {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it depends if it's a remote control th
Marketing: it's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour, or something like that.
User Interface: Maybe if the remote control is something that y you don't actually have to pick up anymore, that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you can leave it sitting on the table and you don't actually have to find it, then that could be {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay gentlemens, we have to take some deci decisions right now.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: Um so if I if I kind of summarise everything we've de we we said. We are targeting T_V_. {vocalsound} We need {vocalsound} we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy, which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small, not too big. Um we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: With a good shape for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or good shape, yes. We should bring new technologies for young peoples, and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet. Maybe this is something we can stick to it. And um {vocalsound} also, a very interesting things I I I've seen on on on the {disfmarker} one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate. So so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price, it's not possible to go s to go to L_C_D_ {vocalsound} and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies. Uh first m m why not to go to L_C_D_. Because um in fact as we are targeting uh T_V_ {disfmarker} in fact we can use T_V_ screen as a screen to feedback {disfmarker} to to give some feedback informations about what we could have.
User Interface: Well it depends though {disfmarker} well it depends. If we we don't {disfmarker} unless we have some input some video input to the T_V_ or we have control over the T_V_ then we can't actually display that. Like if we if we produce the T_V_s then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there, but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of {disfmarker} something sitting in between the video signal and the and the T_V_ to superimpose those those menus. So that's an extra
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah that's right. Don don't you ha
User Interface: cost.
Project Manager: don't we have contacts with uh people on T_V_ or or {gap} well systems that exist that we can use?
User Interface: Well this is this is another que we still haven't really defined the remote. Are we still {disfmarker} you say we're focusing on T_V_, but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it's a replacement remote control, or is this something for our own line of of televisions?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'Cause that really makes a big difference.'Cause {vocalsound} even if we have contacts we can't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies'T_V_s. It's just there are too many T_V_s out there. It's it's not really gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. That's good point. What's what cou what could be the cost of uh {disfmarker} well, could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to L_C_D_ on the remote control?
User Interface: For twenty five Euro? {vocalsound} I think it's impossible.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's not possible. It's impossible.
User Interface: But but I dunno,
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: I think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that {disfmarker} any leeway in that um that twenty five Euro because for twenty five Euro I think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control, and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics. So I would I would like to know if there's any chance of of increasing the uh
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: of increasing the unit price.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is {disfmarker} which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um {disfmarker} in terms to had {disfmarker} to have really an added value?
Marketing: What would be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
Project Manager: Okay,
User Interface: because {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition, I think this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Wha but what would be {disfmarker} one question, what would be the goal of putting an L_C_D_ in a remote control?
User Interface: Well th
Marketing: What what kind of information?
User Interface:'Cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers, like an interactive programme guide.
Marketing: Yeah but mo most of the T_V_s nowadays show the show the
Project Manager: They have tele teletext. Well, because they have teletext on it.
Marketing: the n
Project Manager: Th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel.
Marketing: Yeah but yeah most of the T_V_s have teletext nowadays.
Project Manager: They have t most of them have teletext, but we want to get rid {disfmarker} well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So to to uh
User Interface: You can get a lot more information on it.
Project Manager: to browse more easily the teletext. For instance through uh through your remote control.
Marketing: So what would what would appear in the in the L_C_D_?
User Interface: So you could have the name of the programme, you could have um the start time you know where it's up to.
Project Manager: The ti the start time, all the p all the programmes you could have uh {disfmarker} o
User Interface: You could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: so you can quickly just kind of {disfmarker} even without reading {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I don't know if this information is available from teletext, also.
User Interface: Well no, but there are the electronic programme guides out there. They may not have pictures, but maybe they do.
Industrial Designer: Are {disfmarker}
User Interface: There's {disfmarker} dependi it also depends on the country.
Project Manager: Well because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the same reason that we cannot uh {gap} informations on the T_V_ {gap}. We c we couldn't grab information information which is not there.
User Interface: No but I mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from. So it may be possible that there are people out there providing that. Uh.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control, if you want to browse, in addition to the T_V_, or uh or it should be a special T_V_ connected to {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah.
User Interface: Well I I think if we're gonna {disfmarker} I think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y I don't think you could even get teletext information from the T_V_ onto the remote control, especially if we don't control the T_V_.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno. We need to find that out.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} We need to close the meeting. Um {vocalsound} so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} just a small thing,
Project Manager: Very quickly.
Industrial Designer: what kind of market we are targeting? Is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market, or what? So the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or {disfmarker} because the cost of L_C_D_ thing could be as high as the T_V_ itself.
Project Manager: No.
Industrial Designer: That is very important.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah, well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their {gap},
User Interface: If it's a really small T_V_ maybe {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Broke. Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: and they want to go t for universal one, and they take the fanciest they can have.
Industrial Designer: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Project Manager: So this is {disfmarker} that we z that that we should target. So the com the um {vocalsound} the uh {vocalsound} the committment is the following, we don't go for speech recognition technology. The L_C_D_ is still on disc is still open to discussion.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It is up to you to go through this um {vocalsound} uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting. So
Marketing: I think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the {disfmarker} than the L_C_D_.
Industrial Designer: It's it's cheaper as compared to the L_C_D_.
Project Manager: Yeah, but not sure. Maybe it's cheaper, but we have no {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because with the L_C_D_ you need more requirements. You need a internet connection. You need m more things.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But
User Interface: Well the thing is I think I think the type of peop
Marketing: for the speech recognition you you don't need anything. You just say channel fifty, and that's it.
User Interface: I think the type of people that are gonna want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gonna have you know a wireless internet connection maybe, or a {disfmarker} you know.
Marketing: But then we should move to another target b because at twenty five Dollars,
Industrial Designer: Means th yeah twenty five Euros is {disfmarker} yeah, that's right.
User Interface: Well this is what we need to find out.
Marketing: it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control?'Cause otherwise we need {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay this is {gap} {disfmarker} this is an open question for you. Yeah. This is uh up to you to tell us. But I'm definitely not keen on to to {disfmarker}
Marketing: To move to another target?
Project Manager: no no no, I'm no I'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies. I'm not confident enough. I'm not sure that that we'll have a product really that work. I uh that work {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's kind of hard to guarantee that you're gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's real yeah. How to guarantee such performances is really hard.
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: {gap} the expert uh said ninety five percent {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well this is still {disfmarker} is is very bad.
User Interface: Ninety five percent is not good enough though. {gap}
Project Manager: So, this is the end of this discussion. Next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on. Um {vocalsound} so you have to work on the component uh concept.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Uh you have to work on user interface, and you have to go through a trend watching. Okay. So the question is still open about the L_C_D_ thing. Um uh we {disfmarker} I hope that next meeting we will uh we'll take some um decision that direction. Thanks. Bye.
User Interface: Yep. | User Interface suggested that the scroll wheel could be used without an LCD screen for changing channel numbers easily. And it would be fairly cheap to implement compared to an LCD screen. Project Manager mentioned that, however, they had seen that there was a new way of interacting that used wheels to navigate. So Project Manager suggested that regarding the cost budget they had a target price, their design could stick to new technologies that bring to young people. | qmsum |
What did the group discuss about details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright, yeah. {gap} crack on {gap}. Okay so we'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes. I think to sum up the last meeting, would be to say um the requirements that we've um set out. Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick, {vocalsound} L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons. Um we were also going to use {gap} novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck, the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck. Um that pretty much sums up the last one. So we'll just crack on, um like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh uh okay.
Project Manager: Um uh the con today is the concep today.
Industrial Designer: I'll just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um {disfmarker} Sorry about this. {gap}. And is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of, um, can we uh outsource these from elsewhere, um will we have to construct any items ourselves?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I have a presentation {gap} I just saved it in the uh the folder.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay well I'll just uh I'll load it up then. Um {vocalsound}. Which one do y
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Project Manager: Oh, interface concept?
User Interface: Yeah, that's me.
Project Manager: That's you. We've got trend watching, that's you.
Industrial Designer: It's uh {disfmarker} Components design.
Project Manager: Components design.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Alright. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh. The case uh le that's what I wrote first of all, could be plastic our plastic. Uh but later on {gap} we found out that um it can be rubber as well, or titanium or even wood. So uh we decide what it's gonna be. Probably plastic. Uh we need the infra-red transmitter. Get that off the shelf. Uh joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it, um could be plastic w or rubber even as well. Um {vocalsound} if you go on to the next slide. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you go on to f uh findings, it's like two or three slides down.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Right. So, this is what I found we can use. Uh three different types of batteries. Um can either use a hand dynamo, or the kinetic type ones, you know that they use in watches, or else uh a solar powered one.
Project Manager: Okay. Now,
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: the kinetic one, we've {disfmarker}'cause that's the ones where like you {disfmarker} the movement causes it.
Marketing: Cost is {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Um the bat uh the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power, would be my one query.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power?
User Interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more.
Project Manager: Do you think?
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: W
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think it would. Um. And solar cells, I dunno about that.
Marketing: {gap} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh. We should probably just use conventional batteries. Um, just like in usual remote controls.
Project Manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again, you'd say?
Industrial Designer: Um. Yeah. Um. {vocalsound} And these are three different types of {disfmarker} or two different types {disfmarker} three different types of shapes you can have. Uh one is a flat one, and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved. Um {vocalsound} the materials are tha there as you can see, but uh you can't have a titanium one for a double curved,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Titanium, the really strong metal, titanium?
Industrial Designer: uh which would be {disfmarker} Yeah,
Marketing: Is it not also it's expensive?
Industrial Designer: and light. Uh, i think so as well, yeah.
Project Manager: Um. Um.
Industrial Designer: They make mountain bikes out of that, don't they. So it's really light as well.
Project Manager: Curious. Um, I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not, the single curved and double curved, would you be able to give an example?
Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} T yeah.
Project Manager: Um could you maybe draw something? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect, it's just'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two.
Industrial Designer: Uh. Well for a curved, well I was thinking to {disfmarker} f for to sit in your {disfmarker} the palm of your hand. Uh maybe like this, with the uh joy pad here. Joystick here. And maybe um an okay button around here, so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily. Um I don't exactly {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Double curved. It probably means {disfmarker} this is probably double curved. Uh whereas a single curved would be like that. I guess. Or not necessarily.
Project Manager: So it might literally just be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two curves {gap}.
Project Manager: okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah like that. Whereas this is two curves. Um {vocalsound} so I guess that's what they mean by uh double curve.
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: Um which obviously {disfmarker} it looks better than the single curve, but uh you can't have it in titanium, which is uh a nice material. {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and for the buttons, um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s. Uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use, and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive. So you have to decide, there's trade-offs there. Um {vocalsound} if you want the buttons to be {disfmarker} oh yeah, if you have a double curve uh control and it's rubber, then you have these rubber buttons as well. But {vocalsound} you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days. You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want. You wanna enter just the number of it, if you know it. So um I reckon we're gonna have to have a number keypad anyway. Do you think?
Project Manager: Okay, that was definitely something we can talk about. Um so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So, depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display.
Project Manager: Um, do you have any idea so far, like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_, does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount? Or?
Marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_. Is that {disfmarker} did I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I think compared to say just pressing {gap} buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Advanced, like three eight six advance.
Project Manager: {gap} if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red, whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip. Just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons I think is the the point being made.
Marketing: Okay. Okay, sure.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If I've not over-stepped. Yeah?
Industrial Designer: Yeah i
Project Manager: Okay, um should I go on, or go back?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm, if we only have twelve Pounds fifty, twelve Euros, not even twelve Pounds. Twelve Euros, what's that, like eight pounds or something like that, nine Pounds?
Project Manager: Well we'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such. I assume.
Marketing: Okay, that's good point.
Project Manager: We have to look into the costs of those. So, sorry.
Industrial Designer: Uh the previous slides just explain what's in the internal components of the uh remote control. If you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does, translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_. Uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it'll send it to the tr the amplifier.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons, the rubber buttons, uh to uh get sent to the chip. So that's just how the control works inside. Um we have to decide on what buttons we're gonna use.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Um. {gap}. So in the information that you've been supplied, how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} I think we can do it if {vocalsound} uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic. Um and then maybe use single curved uh case. Because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily. Um and then you'll need the advanced chip obviously for the L_C_D_.
Project Manager: Um I mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me. Um conventional battery would seem to make sense.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm {disfmarker} I don't know about anybody else, but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward? {gap}.
User Interface: Mm. Um I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons I'll go into uh in more detail.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: I also have a preference for rubber.
Project Manager: Okay, well um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Based on my research.
Project Manager: Yeah, well will we move on to user interface, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: yeah? Um sorry,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: as long as {disfmarker} were you? Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yep I'm finished.
Project Manager: Um {gap} and d d d interface concept.
User Interface: Yep. Now I'm gonna have to work between the uh the slides and the uh {vocalsound} and the white board
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'cause I actually I have some fairly concrete things this time. Uh um I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs, and pretty much decided to just dump them all. I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re uh nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today. Um so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes, uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand. Um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on, um so that if r a if {vocalsound} so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already. Um so uh next slide, if you please. Um and what we've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick, two function buttons and the L_C_D_, just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum. I don't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um {vocalsound} v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels, so if there's something f {vocalsound} and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for um
Marketing: {gap} digital.
User Interface: f f f {vocalsound} for di for digital or um or for {vocalsound} or for cable, whatever,
Industrial Designer: Ah, okay.
User Interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels, and then um your V_C_ uh and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player. And or um {gap} box. So it's not {vocalsound} I'm not really excessively concerned about that. You must have two two modes, basic mode, where um the joystick's uh left right {vocalsound} left right for channels, up down for volume, um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions. Um now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design, um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people. Um, so you
Project Manager: Can I just jump in slightly there?
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate, then.
User Interface: Yes, absolutely.
Project Manager: {gap} okay.
User Interface: Um, basi {vocalsound} basically what I {vocalsound} basically what the {vocalsound} what {gap} be having um, I would say, the the whole thing articulated at two points, so that if you if you're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the L_C_ {vocalsound} the L_C_D_ and the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The joystick would be in the right place. And {vocalsound} also this is {gap} a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the {vocalsound} the um you know the whole thing you know {vocalsound} it should have sort of organic feel to it
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: that it should be, you know, soft to touch and can be moved around all nice. Um okay
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: on to {vocalsound} on to the next uh to the next slide.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well,
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say, I guess.
User Interface: Yeah,'kay basically um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can add pretty pictures to this. The um {disfmarker} Assuming the hand {vocalsound} the hand to be in about sort of this position, um {gap} hol uh holding the remote, the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb. Um and it would need t there would need to be a {disfmarker} it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users. So. You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness. You just have big {vocalsound} two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can {vocalsound} in the upper part, one for the four finger, one for the middle finger. Um, and that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Is this the joystick?
User Interface: Th {vocalsound} this part here is the joystick. This would be the actual grip. Probably where you'd want to have the battery as well.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: That would be probably the bulkiest part. And you then have, at the uh at the bottom, the L_C_D_, and this would need to be articulated as well. And basically I'd want this to rest here, right at the base of the wrist. So it would fit just nicely in the hand. And again, this part could be rotated, so it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user. Um {disfmarker} So the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button. And then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes. Um now programming it {vocalsound} actually thi this is one thing I've found with um the replacement remote control. Programming them can be a right pain. So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some {vocalsound} some fair iv {gap} fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you {disfmarker} on your {gap} computer just so that you could um pr {vocalsound} program it at a rather {vocalsound} in a rather more comfortable interface. And you could download programs for it from uh for uh T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers. Um though you {disfmarker} i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a {vocalsound} ha have a mode for programming it without the computer, uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet. Um. But uh. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: That's that's my idea.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Excellent, right. Um {vocalsound} uh.
Marketing: Mm.'Kay.
Project Manager: File open.
Marketing: {vocalsound} We go.
Project Manager: Trend watching.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} So uh to gather my research, two basic methods. We compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool. And then we we research uh fashion trends in Europe, what's what's the new black,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: you know, as it goes. {vocalsound} Next slide please. Uh we found, in order of importance, people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool. As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot, and if it does do a lot that's a bonus, but they don't care so much, you know. {vocalsound} They want it to be {disfmarker} that's sounds a bit like a contradiction. Technology technical {disfmarker} technologically innovative. People want it to be that, but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does. So like the interface is really important. {vocalsound} And easy to use, it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important {disfmarker} I mean the second point is twice as important as the third point. People want it {disfmarker} I is it has to be cooler than easy to use, you know, if it has the newest features, even if it's difficult to use, {gap} prefer it to have the newest features. And if it's easy to use that's a bonus. {vocalsound} The fashion, now this is seems a bit odd to me, but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture, for clothes, for shoes. How that relates to a remote control I don't know.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But I I see {vocalsound} I come on to that in the next in the next slide. Spongy. I've als I've been saying everything's the new black. Well spongy's the new black as well. So we have the choice between rubber and plastic. If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze, you know, it's spongy, then {disfmarker} can I skip the rest?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. The uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material, not just normal rubber.
Marketing: Okay. Okay, so
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Forgot to say that.
Marketing: kinda spongy material.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: So um so my personal opinion? {vocalsound} Um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative, obviously. But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool, that's that's different, you know, that's {disfmarker} everyone has a white remote control, black remote control, you need something cool. Like, titanium is cool but it's expensive. And maybe it's a bit of overkill for a remote control. Um now the fruit and veg options, either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it. Um {vocalsound} I mean the research did come up with fruit and veg, so maybe it is important for {disfmarker} it's the up to the interface guy. So if we stay away from it, s you know stay away from it, but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that, or a kiwi fruit. It could be something like, I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do. So I think cool is the key. {vocalsound} Few questions about a spongy remote control. I've never seen one before. I've seen plastic remote controls. I think maybe they were {disfmarker} I don't know, back in the day when they first came up with remote controls, they had a reason for it being
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: sturdy, you know. For being strong and sturdy. So um if we want something strong and sturdy, I say stay with plastic or titanium, but if we go with spongy, we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want, it doesn't matter, it's spongy material, it's not gonna break, you know. I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable. So how do things fit it? And if we are gonna use spongy, we can say it's long lasting, you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that, so. So just to summarise, people want stuff that's cool, that's that looks like it's cool, and if it is cool then that's a bonus {gap} doesn't have to be um people like fruit and veg. We can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it. People like spongy material. If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is, and how we can further promote that idea. And also, this was this year. So, things change all the time, every year you know they they always talk about this year, this is the new black. Well next year something else is gonna be the new black
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and we're stuck with last year's fruit and veg type stuff.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing:'Kay. That's me.
Project Manager: Well, um I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway. You always have to bring out new designs, so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway. Um.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf, so {disfmarker} I don't exactly what cost would be incurred. Um I can see your point about the number keypad, but I've {disfmarker} I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um {gap} boxes as well um having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, actually {gap} if you've got a lot of channels, the number keypad can be quite annoying as well, becau {vocalsound} {gap} it's you know if you're trying to remember what uh, you know, what number's the discovery channel or whatever. It's just irritating.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's a good point.
User Interface: But if you h {vocalsound} but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure, then you can sub-group them.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: You can incorporate names into the menu. Okay.
User Interface: So you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Even news, music. Like they do on uh sky digital kinda.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components, um, say something like um lithium ion battery, the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now. Um {disfmarker} Looks like we {gap} going for a double curved design. Um I don't know what cost implications there are in that. Um, looks like we're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber. Though I'd have to say {vocalsound} depending on how flexible it is, we might need to have some kind of inner frame.
User Interface: Yeah, I I would say definitely, I mean {vocalsound} I mean I mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation. W um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation? I can see why it looks appealing, but it could be a weak point in um the structure, do you think?
User Interface: Mm {gap}.
Project Manager: That would be a worry of mine.
Industrial Designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing, {vocalsound} looks like a banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a {vocalsound} a structural weakness,
Marketing: {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: F if you wanna design it that way. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean if you have a firm s sub-structure, you can then incorporate articulation into that. If you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible, spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic, and I think would look rather co I mean {vocalsound} mi {vocalsound} rather cool. I mean my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice, it makes it {vocalsound} makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but uh.
Project Manager: Yeah, we won't add that functionality.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. Course not.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: However, one interesting point is, I don't know how serious you were there, but we {disfmarker} if we take some of the ideas {gap} why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Sure, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I dunno.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It's an {disfmarker} certainly a different colour from your average um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Make it harder to lose, as well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's true. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sure.
Project Manager: Was there anything in your research {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The noise for when you lose the banana, um f yeah, for when you lose the remote control, {vocalsound} it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that, rather than a standard beep beep.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Y you know, you lose the monkey {disfmarker} the banana,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} monkey {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: y {vocalsound} you lose the banana, you press a button, and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana.
User Interface: I th uh I mean if it {disfmarker} I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable, though maybe have monkey as default. Um.
Marketing: S oh, I was gonna talk about the programmable remote control. Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s, you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature, I I don't know.
User Interface: Well basi {vocalsound} basically the um for {vocalsound} f for uh {disfmarker} I mean e each manufacturer will have a partic {vocalsound} will have a particular command set that uh the T_V_ responds to.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: It's not simply a matter of frequency.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: So um {vocalsound} usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi {vocalsound} you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote, and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and try the different codes that
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: come under that manufacturer's name'til you find the right one.
Marketing: That's because televisions, they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah, that's right.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that. But if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option, then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing.
Project Manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer, we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes, maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um {vocalsound} different actual units that have been produced.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function, and such.
Marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits, or is it like a few pages?
User Interface: Um booklet. {vocalsound} Some pages.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I was just thinking, if we were to store this information, some type of mapping. This person probably need to use this feature like once, you know, when you first buy the remote control, or whenever they buy a new television, so
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Doesn't have to be used very often
Marketing: once every s
Project Manager: that's right, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah. But it's a but it's a nuisance.
Marketing: and it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it, so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} If you {disfmarker} if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's {vocalsound} that says it can avoid much of that nuisance, you might be favourably inclined towards it. Um mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay, this {disfmarker} {gap} just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: I'm pretty sure that you got that anyway. This is the conceptual one. Um. I think we've come up {disfmarker} I think we've covered everything we need to here. Um I think we've decided on what, you know, decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such, so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting. Um {disfmarker} So for example, um I'll just start at the top, you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage'cause it'll be hard not to, obviously. Um looking from {vocalsound} {disfmarker} prototyping of some des description using clay. Um I suppose you'll be told a lot more about that as uh {vocalsound} progress. Um {disfmarker} The user interface design, They're kind of {disfmarker} it looks they're {disfmarker} the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there, whereas {vocalsound} possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate, do you think?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout?
User Interface: Um well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it, um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are {vocalsound} are made, I would say. Um but then again, the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television, and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate. So um and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, that's very true. {vocalsound} Um. Okay. Um got product evaluation as well. Um.
Marketing: Yeah, you see I don't {disfmarker} some of these things kinda logically follow the others. How can {disfmarker} t product evaluation, doesn't that come after actually seen a product prototype.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I think we'd be {disfmarker} yeah, no, it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with.
Marketing: Oh, that's the {disfmarker} okay, sure sure sure.
Project Manager: Um so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out, uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control, what do you think of the look of it? Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, sure. At this stage we still have no no target audience or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous.
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control, something that's stylish, so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying
Marketing: And it's stylish.
Project Manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then, they've got a bit of free cash, so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Maybe even single, just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Although of course I mean at twenty five Euros, I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the uh device.
Marketing: Yep. Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Think that's well within the normal bracket. Um your idea of the U_S_B_ would I think would largely depend on the cost. U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there, but it might push the cost of the overall unit up'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system. That one might have to be based on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Programmable memory as well.
Industrial Designer: The U_S_B_ for which?
Marketing: For the remote control.
Project Manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming
Industrial Designer: Oh right, okay.
Project Manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice, easy minimal design, normally. Um.
Marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_, or are we gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's just for T_V_, but for
Marketing: Different.
Project Manager: programming it to use your T_V_, you might hook it up to the P_C_.
Industrial Designer: Okay, yeah.
Project Manager: I'm not sure, but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: We don't know unless {disfmarker} it would make sense to.
User Interface: Yeah,
Marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something.
User Interface: I mean it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well something that doesn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed, you know, once you turn off the power.
User Interface: Yeah. The other thing I mean it I mean it would need to ha {vocalsound} it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um f {vocalsound} for one {vocalsound} for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be um uh I mean although you know, it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device, the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Different languages, uh different skins and stuff like that.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. W
User Interface: Mm-hmm. How uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels. That sort of thing.
Marketing: Sure. {vocalsound} I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff, that does open {disfmarker} it is supposed to be international, right? So.
Project Manager: It would make sense to. I would say to.
Marketing: It would make sense if you could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um and we'd better be careful about the time as well. We've already had the five minute warning,
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: so. Um. I would say yeah. International would make sense. Um you're gonna look at product evaluation. I'm I'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap. Um you're gonna look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um looks like we're gonna need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay. {vocalsound} Uh we'll see how that goes. Um.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we going to be supplied with the clay is what I want to know.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So um
User Interface: Where is the clay?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: do {disfmarker} I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting, would you say?
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {gap} they're going with the fashion thing, like the design, spongy rubber.
Marketing: The fruit and veg. This one.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, I would s that would be my my feeling.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Bu {vocalsound} but um but the spongy idea I like. I like it a lot.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: I {gap} having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea, though maybe we could have options for colours as well. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {gap} and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose.
Marketing: Sure. I mean we are trying to promote a remote control, but we wanna keep the company brand as well,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: so.
Project Manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on. Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used. Um.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah. I was {vocalsound} like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the uh on the top function button.
Project Manager: Okay. And I think that says it all really.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think so too.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Sa
Project Manager: See everybody in a half hour. | The team made some decisions on the remote control design for the present stage. The keypad was given up, for a menu display could better classify channels into subgroups. Standard components such as the conventional battery were the final choices for the remote control. The team would adopt a double-curved design and rubber material. A corporate logo would be incorporated. There would be a special beeping sound for the location function. The new remote control could be programmed on the LCD screen as well as using software on the computer. In the next meeting, Industrial Designer and User Interface would present a prototype of the remote control. The team would also make a product evaluation. | qmsum |
Summarize Project Manager's opinions towards the idea of a programmable remote control when discussing details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright, yeah. {gap} crack on {gap}. Okay so we'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes. I think to sum up the last meeting, would be to say um the requirements that we've um set out. Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick, {vocalsound} L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons. Um we were also going to use {gap} novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck, the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck. Um that pretty much sums up the last one. So we'll just crack on, um like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh uh okay.
Project Manager: Um uh the con today is the concep today.
Industrial Designer: I'll just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um {disfmarker} Sorry about this. {gap}. And is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of, um, can we uh outsource these from elsewhere, um will we have to construct any items ourselves?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I have a presentation {gap} I just saved it in the uh the folder.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay well I'll just uh I'll load it up then. Um {vocalsound}. Which one do y
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Project Manager: Oh, interface concept?
User Interface: Yeah, that's me.
Project Manager: That's you. We've got trend watching, that's you.
Industrial Designer: It's uh {disfmarker} Components design.
Project Manager: Components design.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Alright. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh. The case uh le that's what I wrote first of all, could be plastic our plastic. Uh but later on {gap} we found out that um it can be rubber as well, or titanium or even wood. So uh we decide what it's gonna be. Probably plastic. Uh we need the infra-red transmitter. Get that off the shelf. Uh joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it, um could be plastic w or rubber even as well. Um {vocalsound} if you go on to the next slide. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you go on to f uh findings, it's like two or three slides down.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Right. So, this is what I found we can use. Uh three different types of batteries. Um can either use a hand dynamo, or the kinetic type ones, you know that they use in watches, or else uh a solar powered one.
Project Manager: Okay. Now,
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: the kinetic one, we've {disfmarker}'cause that's the ones where like you {disfmarker} the movement causes it.
Marketing: Cost is {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Um the bat uh the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power, would be my one query.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power?
User Interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more.
Project Manager: Do you think?
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: W
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think it would. Um. And solar cells, I dunno about that.
Marketing: {gap} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh. We should probably just use conventional batteries. Um, just like in usual remote controls.
Project Manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again, you'd say?
Industrial Designer: Um. Yeah. Um. {vocalsound} And these are three different types of {disfmarker} or two different types {disfmarker} three different types of shapes you can have. Uh one is a flat one, and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved. Um {vocalsound} the materials are tha there as you can see, but uh you can't have a titanium one for a double curved,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Titanium, the really strong metal, titanium?
Industrial Designer: uh which would be {disfmarker} Yeah,
Marketing: Is it not also it's expensive?
Industrial Designer: and light. Uh, i think so as well, yeah.
Project Manager: Um. Um.
Industrial Designer: They make mountain bikes out of that, don't they. So it's really light as well.
Project Manager: Curious. Um, I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not, the single curved and double curved, would you be able to give an example?
Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} T yeah.
Project Manager: Um could you maybe draw something? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect, it's just'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two.
Industrial Designer: Uh. Well for a curved, well I was thinking to {disfmarker} f for to sit in your {disfmarker} the palm of your hand. Uh maybe like this, with the uh joy pad here. Joystick here. And maybe um an okay button around here, so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily. Um I don't exactly {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Double curved. It probably means {disfmarker} this is probably double curved. Uh whereas a single curved would be like that. I guess. Or not necessarily.
Project Manager: So it might literally just be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two curves {gap}.
Project Manager: okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah like that. Whereas this is two curves. Um {vocalsound} so I guess that's what they mean by uh double curve.
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: Um which obviously {disfmarker} it looks better than the single curve, but uh you can't have it in titanium, which is uh a nice material. {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and for the buttons, um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s. Uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use, and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive. So you have to decide, there's trade-offs there. Um {vocalsound} if you want the buttons to be {disfmarker} oh yeah, if you have a double curve uh control and it's rubber, then you have these rubber buttons as well. But {vocalsound} you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days. You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want. You wanna enter just the number of it, if you know it. So um I reckon we're gonna have to have a number keypad anyway. Do you think?
Project Manager: Okay, that was definitely something we can talk about. Um so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So, depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display.
Project Manager: Um, do you have any idea so far, like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_, does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount? Or?
Marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_. Is that {disfmarker} did I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I think compared to say just pressing {gap} buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Advanced, like three eight six advance.
Project Manager: {gap} if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red, whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip. Just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons I think is the the point being made.
Marketing: Okay. Okay, sure.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If I've not over-stepped. Yeah?
Industrial Designer: Yeah i
Project Manager: Okay, um should I go on, or go back?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm, if we only have twelve Pounds fifty, twelve Euros, not even twelve Pounds. Twelve Euros, what's that, like eight pounds or something like that, nine Pounds?
Project Manager: Well we'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such. I assume.
Marketing: Okay, that's good point.
Project Manager: We have to look into the costs of those. So, sorry.
Industrial Designer: Uh the previous slides just explain what's in the internal components of the uh remote control. If you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does, translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_. Uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it'll send it to the tr the amplifier.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons, the rubber buttons, uh to uh get sent to the chip. So that's just how the control works inside. Um we have to decide on what buttons we're gonna use.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Um. {gap}. So in the information that you've been supplied, how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} I think we can do it if {vocalsound} uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic. Um and then maybe use single curved uh case. Because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily. Um and then you'll need the advanced chip obviously for the L_C_D_.
Project Manager: Um I mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me. Um conventional battery would seem to make sense.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm {disfmarker} I don't know about anybody else, but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward? {gap}.
User Interface: Mm. Um I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons I'll go into uh in more detail.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: I also have a preference for rubber.
Project Manager: Okay, well um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Based on my research.
Project Manager: Yeah, well will we move on to user interface, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: yeah? Um sorry,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: as long as {disfmarker} were you? Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yep I'm finished.
Project Manager: Um {gap} and d d d interface concept.
User Interface: Yep. Now I'm gonna have to work between the uh the slides and the uh {vocalsound} and the white board
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'cause I actually I have some fairly concrete things this time. Uh um I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs, and pretty much decided to just dump them all. I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re uh nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today. Um so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes, uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand. Um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on, um so that if r a if {vocalsound} so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already. Um so uh next slide, if you please. Um and what we've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick, two function buttons and the L_C_D_, just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum. I don't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um {vocalsound} v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels, so if there's something f {vocalsound} and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for um
Marketing: {gap} digital.
User Interface: f f f {vocalsound} for di for digital or um or for {vocalsound} or for cable, whatever,
Industrial Designer: Ah, okay.
User Interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels, and then um your V_C_ uh and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player. And or um {gap} box. So it's not {vocalsound} I'm not really excessively concerned about that. You must have two two modes, basic mode, where um the joystick's uh left right {vocalsound} left right for channels, up down for volume, um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions. Um now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design, um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people. Um, so you
Project Manager: Can I just jump in slightly there?
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate, then.
User Interface: Yes, absolutely.
Project Manager: {gap} okay.
User Interface: Um, basi {vocalsound} basically what I {vocalsound} basically what the {vocalsound} what {gap} be having um, I would say, the the whole thing articulated at two points, so that if you if you're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the L_C_ {vocalsound} the L_C_D_ and the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The joystick would be in the right place. And {vocalsound} also this is {gap} a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the {vocalsound} the um you know the whole thing you know {vocalsound} it should have sort of organic feel to it
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: that it should be, you know, soft to touch and can be moved around all nice. Um okay
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: on to {vocalsound} on to the next uh to the next slide.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well,
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say, I guess.
User Interface: Yeah,'kay basically um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can add pretty pictures to this. The um {disfmarker} Assuming the hand {vocalsound} the hand to be in about sort of this position, um {gap} hol uh holding the remote, the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb. Um and it would need t there would need to be a {disfmarker} it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users. So. You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness. You just have big {vocalsound} two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can {vocalsound} in the upper part, one for the four finger, one for the middle finger. Um, and that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Is this the joystick?
User Interface: Th {vocalsound} this part here is the joystick. This would be the actual grip. Probably where you'd want to have the battery as well.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: That would be probably the bulkiest part. And you then have, at the uh at the bottom, the L_C_D_, and this would need to be articulated as well. And basically I'd want this to rest here, right at the base of the wrist. So it would fit just nicely in the hand. And again, this part could be rotated, so it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user. Um {disfmarker} So the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button. And then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes. Um now programming it {vocalsound} actually thi this is one thing I've found with um the replacement remote control. Programming them can be a right pain. So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some {vocalsound} some fair iv {gap} fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you {disfmarker} on your {gap} computer just so that you could um pr {vocalsound} program it at a rather {vocalsound} in a rather more comfortable interface. And you could download programs for it from uh for uh T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers. Um though you {disfmarker} i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a {vocalsound} ha have a mode for programming it without the computer, uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet. Um. But uh. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: That's that's my idea.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Excellent, right. Um {vocalsound} uh.
Marketing: Mm.'Kay.
Project Manager: File open.
Marketing: {vocalsound} We go.
Project Manager: Trend watching.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} So uh to gather my research, two basic methods. We compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool. And then we we research uh fashion trends in Europe, what's what's the new black,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: you know, as it goes. {vocalsound} Next slide please. Uh we found, in order of importance, people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool. As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot, and if it does do a lot that's a bonus, but they don't care so much, you know. {vocalsound} They want it to be {disfmarker} that's sounds a bit like a contradiction. Technology technical {disfmarker} technologically innovative. People want it to be that, but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does. So like the interface is really important. {vocalsound} And easy to use, it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important {disfmarker} I mean the second point is twice as important as the third point. People want it {disfmarker} I is it has to be cooler than easy to use, you know, if it has the newest features, even if it's difficult to use, {gap} prefer it to have the newest features. And if it's easy to use that's a bonus. {vocalsound} The fashion, now this is seems a bit odd to me, but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture, for clothes, for shoes. How that relates to a remote control I don't know.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But I I see {vocalsound} I come on to that in the next in the next slide. Spongy. I've als I've been saying everything's the new black. Well spongy's the new black as well. So we have the choice between rubber and plastic. If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze, you know, it's spongy, then {disfmarker} can I skip the rest?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. The uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material, not just normal rubber.
Marketing: Okay. Okay, so
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Forgot to say that.
Marketing: kinda spongy material.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: So um so my personal opinion? {vocalsound} Um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative, obviously. But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool, that's that's different, you know, that's {disfmarker} everyone has a white remote control, black remote control, you need something cool. Like, titanium is cool but it's expensive. And maybe it's a bit of overkill for a remote control. Um now the fruit and veg options, either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it. Um {vocalsound} I mean the research did come up with fruit and veg, so maybe it is important for {disfmarker} it's the up to the interface guy. So if we stay away from it, s you know stay away from it, but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that, or a kiwi fruit. It could be something like, I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do. So I think cool is the key. {vocalsound} Few questions about a spongy remote control. I've never seen one before. I've seen plastic remote controls. I think maybe they were {disfmarker} I don't know, back in the day when they first came up with remote controls, they had a reason for it being
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: sturdy, you know. For being strong and sturdy. So um if we want something strong and sturdy, I say stay with plastic or titanium, but if we go with spongy, we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want, it doesn't matter, it's spongy material, it's not gonna break, you know. I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable. So how do things fit it? And if we are gonna use spongy, we can say it's long lasting, you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that, so. So just to summarise, people want stuff that's cool, that's that looks like it's cool, and if it is cool then that's a bonus {gap} doesn't have to be um people like fruit and veg. We can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it. People like spongy material. If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is, and how we can further promote that idea. And also, this was this year. So, things change all the time, every year you know they they always talk about this year, this is the new black. Well next year something else is gonna be the new black
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and we're stuck with last year's fruit and veg type stuff.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing:'Kay. That's me.
Project Manager: Well, um I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway. You always have to bring out new designs, so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway. Um.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf, so {disfmarker} I don't exactly what cost would be incurred. Um I can see your point about the number keypad, but I've {disfmarker} I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um {gap} boxes as well um having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, actually {gap} if you've got a lot of channels, the number keypad can be quite annoying as well, becau {vocalsound} {gap} it's you know if you're trying to remember what uh, you know, what number's the discovery channel or whatever. It's just irritating.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's a good point.
User Interface: But if you h {vocalsound} but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure, then you can sub-group them.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: You can incorporate names into the menu. Okay.
User Interface: So you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Even news, music. Like they do on uh sky digital kinda.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components, um, say something like um lithium ion battery, the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now. Um {disfmarker} Looks like we {gap} going for a double curved design. Um I don't know what cost implications there are in that. Um, looks like we're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber. Though I'd have to say {vocalsound} depending on how flexible it is, we might need to have some kind of inner frame.
User Interface: Yeah, I I would say definitely, I mean {vocalsound} I mean I mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation. W um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation? I can see why it looks appealing, but it could be a weak point in um the structure, do you think?
User Interface: Mm {gap}.
Project Manager: That would be a worry of mine.
Industrial Designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing, {vocalsound} looks like a banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a {vocalsound} a structural weakness,
Marketing: {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: F if you wanna design it that way. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean if you have a firm s sub-structure, you can then incorporate articulation into that. If you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible, spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic, and I think would look rather co I mean {vocalsound} mi {vocalsound} rather cool. I mean my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice, it makes it {vocalsound} makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but uh.
Project Manager: Yeah, we won't add that functionality.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. Course not.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: However, one interesting point is, I don't know how serious you were there, but we {disfmarker} if we take some of the ideas {gap} why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Sure, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I dunno.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It's an {disfmarker} certainly a different colour from your average um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Make it harder to lose, as well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's true. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sure.
Project Manager: Was there anything in your research {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The noise for when you lose the banana, um f yeah, for when you lose the remote control, {vocalsound} it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that, rather than a standard beep beep.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Y you know, you lose the monkey {disfmarker} the banana,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} monkey {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: y {vocalsound} you lose the banana, you press a button, and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana.
User Interface: I th uh I mean if it {disfmarker} I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable, though maybe have monkey as default. Um.
Marketing: S oh, I was gonna talk about the programmable remote control. Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s, you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature, I I don't know.
User Interface: Well basi {vocalsound} basically the um for {vocalsound} f for uh {disfmarker} I mean e each manufacturer will have a partic {vocalsound} will have a particular command set that uh the T_V_ responds to.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: It's not simply a matter of frequency.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: So um {vocalsound} usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi {vocalsound} you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote, and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and try the different codes that
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: come under that manufacturer's name'til you find the right one.
Marketing: That's because televisions, they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah, that's right.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that. But if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option, then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing.
Project Manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer, we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes, maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um {vocalsound} different actual units that have been produced.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function, and such.
Marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits, or is it like a few pages?
User Interface: Um booklet. {vocalsound} Some pages.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I was just thinking, if we were to store this information, some type of mapping. This person probably need to use this feature like once, you know, when you first buy the remote control, or whenever they buy a new television, so
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Doesn't have to be used very often
Marketing: once every s
Project Manager: that's right, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah. But it's a but it's a nuisance.
Marketing: and it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it, so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} If you {disfmarker} if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's {vocalsound} that says it can avoid much of that nuisance, you might be favourably inclined towards it. Um mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay, this {disfmarker} {gap} just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: I'm pretty sure that you got that anyway. This is the conceptual one. Um. I think we've come up {disfmarker} I think we've covered everything we need to here. Um I think we've decided on what, you know, decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such, so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting. Um {disfmarker} So for example, um I'll just start at the top, you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage'cause it'll be hard not to, obviously. Um looking from {vocalsound} {disfmarker} prototyping of some des description using clay. Um I suppose you'll be told a lot more about that as uh {vocalsound} progress. Um {disfmarker} The user interface design, They're kind of {disfmarker} it looks they're {disfmarker} the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there, whereas {vocalsound} possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate, do you think?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout?
User Interface: Um well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it, um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are {vocalsound} are made, I would say. Um but then again, the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television, and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate. So um and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, that's very true. {vocalsound} Um. Okay. Um got product evaluation as well. Um.
Marketing: Yeah, you see I don't {disfmarker} some of these things kinda logically follow the others. How can {disfmarker} t product evaluation, doesn't that come after actually seen a product prototype.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I think we'd be {disfmarker} yeah, no, it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with.
Marketing: Oh, that's the {disfmarker} okay, sure sure sure.
Project Manager: Um so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out, uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control, what do you think of the look of it? Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, sure. At this stage we still have no no target audience or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous.
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control, something that's stylish, so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying
Marketing: And it's stylish.
Project Manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then, they've got a bit of free cash, so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Maybe even single, just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Although of course I mean at twenty five Euros, I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the uh device.
Marketing: Yep. Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Think that's well within the normal bracket. Um your idea of the U_S_B_ would I think would largely depend on the cost. U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there, but it might push the cost of the overall unit up'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system. That one might have to be based on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Programmable memory as well.
Industrial Designer: The U_S_B_ for which?
Marketing: For the remote control.
Project Manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming
Industrial Designer: Oh right, okay.
Project Manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice, easy minimal design, normally. Um.
Marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_, or are we gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's just for T_V_, but for
Marketing: Different.
Project Manager: programming it to use your T_V_, you might hook it up to the P_C_.
Industrial Designer: Okay, yeah.
Project Manager: I'm not sure, but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: We don't know unless {disfmarker} it would make sense to.
User Interface: Yeah,
Marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something.
User Interface: I mean it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well something that doesn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed, you know, once you turn off the power.
User Interface: Yeah. The other thing I mean it I mean it would need to ha {vocalsound} it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um f {vocalsound} for one {vocalsound} for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be um uh I mean although you know, it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device, the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Different languages, uh different skins and stuff like that.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. W
User Interface: Mm-hmm. How uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels. That sort of thing.
Marketing: Sure. {vocalsound} I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff, that does open {disfmarker} it is supposed to be international, right? So.
Project Manager: It would make sense to. I would say to.
Marketing: It would make sense if you could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um and we'd better be careful about the time as well. We've already had the five minute warning,
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: so. Um. I would say yeah. International would make sense. Um you're gonna look at product evaluation. I'm I'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap. Um you're gonna look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um looks like we're gonna need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay. {vocalsound} Uh we'll see how that goes. Um.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we going to be supplied with the clay is what I want to know.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So um
User Interface: Where is the clay?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: do {disfmarker} I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting, would you say?
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {gap} they're going with the fashion thing, like the design, spongy rubber.
Marketing: The fruit and veg. This one.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, I would s that would be my my feeling.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Bu {vocalsound} but um but the spongy idea I like. I like it a lot.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: I {gap} having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea, though maybe we could have options for colours as well. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {gap} and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose.
Marketing: Sure. I mean we are trying to promote a remote control, but we wanna keep the company brand as well,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: so.
Project Manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on. Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used. Um.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah. I was {vocalsound} like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the uh on the top function button.
Project Manager: Okay. And I think that says it all really.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think so too.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Sa
Project Manager: See everybody in a half hour. | Marketing did not understand the purpose of a programmable remote control. Project Manager agreed with User Interface on that if users used the remote control for different devices, they would need to program particular commands into codes on the remote control. Project Manager added that users could even make the remote control perform a specific function by looking up the function name produced by themselves, instead of looking for the command code on the computer. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright, yeah. {gap} crack on {gap}. Okay so we'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes. I think to sum up the last meeting, would be to say um the requirements that we've um set out. Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick, {vocalsound} L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons. Um we were also going to use {gap} novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck, the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck. Um that pretty much sums up the last one. So we'll just crack on, um like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh uh okay.
Project Manager: Um uh the con today is the concep today.
Industrial Designer: I'll just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um {disfmarker} Sorry about this. {gap}. And is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of, um, can we uh outsource these from elsewhere, um will we have to construct any items ourselves?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I have a presentation {gap} I just saved it in the uh the folder.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay well I'll just uh I'll load it up then. Um {vocalsound}. Which one do y
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Project Manager: Oh, interface concept?
User Interface: Yeah, that's me.
Project Manager: That's you. We've got trend watching, that's you.
Industrial Designer: It's uh {disfmarker} Components design.
Project Manager: Components design.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Alright. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh. The case uh le that's what I wrote first of all, could be plastic our plastic. Uh but later on {gap} we found out that um it can be rubber as well, or titanium or even wood. So uh we decide what it's gonna be. Probably plastic. Uh we need the infra-red transmitter. Get that off the shelf. Uh joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it, um could be plastic w or rubber even as well. Um {vocalsound} if you go on to the next slide. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you go on to f uh findings, it's like two or three slides down.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Right. So, this is what I found we can use. Uh three different types of batteries. Um can either use a hand dynamo, or the kinetic type ones, you know that they use in watches, or else uh a solar powered one.
Project Manager: Okay. Now,
Industrial Designer: Um.
Project Manager: the kinetic one, we've {disfmarker}'cause that's the ones where like you {disfmarker} the movement causes it.
Marketing: Cost is {disfmarker} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Um the bat uh the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power, would be my one query.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power?
User Interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more.
Project Manager: Do you think?
Industrial Designer: Uh.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: W
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think it would. Um. And solar cells, I dunno about that.
Marketing: {gap} yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh. We should probably just use conventional batteries. Um, just like in usual remote controls.
Project Manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again, you'd say?
Industrial Designer: Um. Yeah. Um. {vocalsound} And these are three different types of {disfmarker} or two different types {disfmarker} three different types of shapes you can have. Uh one is a flat one, and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved. Um {vocalsound} the materials are tha there as you can see, but uh you can't have a titanium one for a double curved,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Titanium, the really strong metal, titanium?
Industrial Designer: uh which would be {disfmarker} Yeah,
Marketing: Is it not also it's expensive?
Industrial Designer: and light. Uh, i think so as well, yeah.
Project Manager: Um. Um.
Industrial Designer: They make mountain bikes out of that, don't they. So it's really light as well.
Project Manager: Curious. Um, I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not, the single curved and double curved, would you be able to give an example?
Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} T yeah.
Project Manager: Um could you maybe draw something? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect, it's just'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two.
Industrial Designer: Uh. Well for a curved, well I was thinking to {disfmarker} f for to sit in your {disfmarker} the palm of your hand. Uh maybe like this, with the uh joy pad here. Joystick here. And maybe um an okay button around here, so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily. Um I don't exactly {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Double curved. It probably means {disfmarker} this is probably double curved. Uh whereas a single curved would be like that. I guess. Or not necessarily.
Project Manager: So it might literally just be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two curves {gap}.
Project Manager: okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah like that. Whereas this is two curves. Um {vocalsound} so I guess that's what they mean by uh double curve.
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: Um which obviously {disfmarker} it looks better than the single curve, but uh you can't have it in titanium, which is uh a nice material. {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: and for the buttons, um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s. Uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use, and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive. So you have to decide, there's trade-offs there. Um {vocalsound} if you want the buttons to be {disfmarker} oh yeah, if you have a double curve uh control and it's rubber, then you have these rubber buttons as well. But {vocalsound} you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days. You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want. You wanna enter just the number of it, if you know it. So um I reckon we're gonna have to have a number keypad anyway. Do you think?
Project Manager: Okay, that was definitely something we can talk about. Um so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So, depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display.
Project Manager: Um, do you have any idea so far, like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_, does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount? Or?
Marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_. Is that {disfmarker} did I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I think compared to say just pressing {gap} buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Advanced, like three eight six advance.
Project Manager: {gap} if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red, whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip. Just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons I think is the the point being made.
Marketing: Okay. Okay, sure.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: If I've not over-stepped. Yeah?
Industrial Designer: Yeah i
Project Manager: Okay, um should I go on, or go back?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm, if we only have twelve Pounds fifty, twelve Euros, not even twelve Pounds. Twelve Euros, what's that, like eight pounds or something like that, nine Pounds?
Project Manager: Well we'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such. I assume.
Marketing: Okay, that's good point.
Project Manager: We have to look into the costs of those. So, sorry.
Industrial Designer: Uh the previous slides just explain what's in the internal components of the uh remote control. If you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does, translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_. Uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it'll send it to the tr the amplifier.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: And uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons, the rubber buttons, uh to uh get sent to the chip. So that's just how the control works inside. Um we have to decide on what buttons we're gonna use.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Project Manager: Um. {gap}. So in the information that you've been supplied, how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} I think we can do it if {vocalsound} uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic. Um and then maybe use single curved uh case. Because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily. Um and then you'll need the advanced chip obviously for the L_C_D_.
Project Manager: Um I mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me. Um conventional battery would seem to make sense.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm {disfmarker} I don't know about anybody else, but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward? {gap}.
User Interface: Mm. Um I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons I'll go into uh in more detail.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: I also have a preference for rubber.
Project Manager: Okay, well um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Based on my research.
Project Manager: Yeah, well will we move on to user interface, and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: yeah? Um sorry,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: as long as {disfmarker} were you? Yeah. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yep I'm finished.
Project Manager: Um {gap} and d d d interface concept.
User Interface: Yep. Now I'm gonna have to work between the uh the slides and the uh {vocalsound} and the white board
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface:'cause I actually I have some fairly concrete things this time. Uh um I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs, and pretty much decided to just dump them all. I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re uh nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today. Um so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes, uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand. Um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on, um so that if r a if {vocalsound} so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already. Um so uh next slide, if you please. Um and what we've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick, two function buttons and the L_C_D_, just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum. I don't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um {vocalsound} v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels, so if there's something f {vocalsound} and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for um
Marketing: {gap} digital.
User Interface: f f f {vocalsound} for di for digital or um or for {vocalsound} or for cable, whatever,
Industrial Designer: Ah, okay.
User Interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels, and then um your V_C_ uh and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player. And or um {gap} box. So it's not {vocalsound} I'm not really excessively concerned about that. You must have two two modes, basic mode, where um the joystick's uh left right {vocalsound} left right for channels, up down for volume, um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions. Um now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design, um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people. Um, so you
Project Manager: Can I just jump in slightly there?
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate, then.
User Interface: Yes, absolutely.
Project Manager: {gap} okay.
User Interface: Um, basi {vocalsound} basically what I {vocalsound} basically what the {vocalsound} what {gap} be having um, I would say, the the whole thing articulated at two points, so that if you if you're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the L_C_ {vocalsound} the L_C_D_ and the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The joystick would be in the right place. And {vocalsound} also this is {gap} a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the {vocalsound} the um you know the whole thing you know {vocalsound} it should have sort of organic feel to it
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: that it should be, you know, soft to touch and can be moved around all nice. Um okay
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: on to {vocalsound} on to the next uh to the next slide.
Project Manager: Um, yeah. Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well,
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say, I guess.
User Interface: Yeah,'kay basically um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can add pretty pictures to this. The um {disfmarker} Assuming the hand {vocalsound} the hand to be in about sort of this position, um {gap} hol uh holding the remote, the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb. Um and it would need t there would need to be a {disfmarker} it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users. So. You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness. You just have big {vocalsound} two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can {vocalsound} in the upper part, one for the four finger, one for the middle finger. Um, and that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Is this the joystick?
User Interface: Th {vocalsound} this part here is the joystick. This would be the actual grip. Probably where you'd want to have the battery as well.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: That would be probably the bulkiest part. And you then have, at the uh at the bottom, the L_C_D_, and this would need to be articulated as well. And basically I'd want this to rest here, right at the base of the wrist. So it would fit just nicely in the hand. And again, this part could be rotated, so it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user. Um {disfmarker} So the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button. And then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes. Um now programming it {vocalsound} actually thi this is one thing I've found with um the replacement remote control. Programming them can be a right pain. So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some {vocalsound} some fair iv {gap} fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you {disfmarker} on your {gap} computer just so that you could um pr {vocalsound} program it at a rather {vocalsound} in a rather more comfortable interface. And you could download programs for it from uh for uh T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers. Um though you {disfmarker} i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a {vocalsound} ha have a mode for programming it without the computer, uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet. Um. But uh. Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: That's that's my idea.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Excellent, right. Um {vocalsound} uh.
Marketing: Mm.'Kay.
Project Manager: File open.
Marketing: {vocalsound} We go.
Project Manager: Trend watching.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} So uh to gather my research, two basic methods. We compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool. And then we we research uh fashion trends in Europe, what's what's the new black,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: you know, as it goes. {vocalsound} Next slide please. Uh we found, in order of importance, people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool. As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot, and if it does do a lot that's a bonus, but they don't care so much, you know. {vocalsound} They want it to be {disfmarker} that's sounds a bit like a contradiction. Technology technical {disfmarker} technologically innovative. People want it to be that, but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does. So like the interface is really important. {vocalsound} And easy to use, it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important {disfmarker} I mean the second point is twice as important as the third point. People want it {disfmarker} I is it has to be cooler than easy to use, you know, if it has the newest features, even if it's difficult to use, {gap} prefer it to have the newest features. And if it's easy to use that's a bonus. {vocalsound} The fashion, now this is seems a bit odd to me, but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture, for clothes, for shoes. How that relates to a remote control I don't know.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But I I see {vocalsound} I come on to that in the next in the next slide. Spongy. I've als I've been saying everything's the new black. Well spongy's the new black as well. So we have the choice between rubber and plastic. If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze, you know, it's spongy, then {disfmarker} can I skip the rest?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. The uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material, not just normal rubber.
Marketing: Okay. Okay, so
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Forgot to say that.
Marketing: kinda spongy material.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: So um so my personal opinion? {vocalsound} Um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative, obviously. But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool, that's that's different, you know, that's {disfmarker} everyone has a white remote control, black remote control, you need something cool. Like, titanium is cool but it's expensive. And maybe it's a bit of overkill for a remote control. Um now the fruit and veg options, either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it. Um {vocalsound} I mean the research did come up with fruit and veg, so maybe it is important for {disfmarker} it's the up to the interface guy. So if we stay away from it, s you know stay away from it, but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that, or a kiwi fruit. It could be something like, I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do. So I think cool is the key. {vocalsound} Few questions about a spongy remote control. I've never seen one before. I've seen plastic remote controls. I think maybe they were {disfmarker} I don't know, back in the day when they first came up with remote controls, they had a reason for it being
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: sturdy, you know. For being strong and sturdy. So um if we want something strong and sturdy, I say stay with plastic or titanium, but if we go with spongy, we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want, it doesn't matter, it's spongy material, it's not gonna break, you know. I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable. So how do things fit it? And if we are gonna use spongy, we can say it's long lasting, you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that, so. So just to summarise, people want stuff that's cool, that's that looks like it's cool, and if it is cool then that's a bonus {gap} doesn't have to be um people like fruit and veg. We can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it. People like spongy material. If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is, and how we can further promote that idea. And also, this was this year. So, things change all the time, every year you know they they always talk about this year, this is the new black. Well next year something else is gonna be the new black
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: and we're stuck with last year's fruit and veg type stuff.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing:'Kay. That's me.
Project Manager: Well, um I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway. You always have to bring out new designs, so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway. Um.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf, so {disfmarker} I don't exactly what cost would be incurred. Um I can see your point about the number keypad, but I've {disfmarker} I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um {gap} boxes as well um having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah, actually {gap} if you've got a lot of channels, the number keypad can be quite annoying as well, becau {vocalsound} {gap} it's you know if you're trying to remember what uh, you know, what number's the discovery channel or whatever. It's just irritating.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's a good point.
User Interface: But if you h {vocalsound} but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure, then you can sub-group them.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: You can incorporate names into the menu. Okay.
User Interface: So you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Even news, music. Like they do on uh sky digital kinda.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components, um, say something like um lithium ion battery, the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now. Um {disfmarker} Looks like we {gap} going for a double curved design. Um I don't know what cost implications there are in that. Um, looks like we're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber. Though I'd have to say {vocalsound} depending on how flexible it is, we might need to have some kind of inner frame.
User Interface: Yeah, I I would say definitely, I mean {vocalsound} I mean I mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation. W um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation? I can see why it looks appealing, but it could be a weak point in um the structure, do you think?
User Interface: Mm {gap}.
Project Manager: That would be a worry of mine.
Industrial Designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing, {vocalsound} looks like a banana.
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a {vocalsound} a structural weakness,
Marketing: {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: F if you wanna design it that way. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean if you have a firm s sub-structure, you can then incorporate articulation into that. If you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible, spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic, and I think would look rather co I mean {vocalsound} mi {vocalsound} rather cool. I mean my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice, it makes it {vocalsound} makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but uh.
Project Manager: Yeah, we won't add that functionality.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay. Course not.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: However, one interesting point is, I don't know how serious you were there, but we {disfmarker} if we take some of the ideas {gap} why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Sure, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: I dunno.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It's an {disfmarker} certainly a different colour from your average um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Make it harder to lose, as well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's true. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sure.
Project Manager: Was there anything in your research {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The noise for when you lose the banana, um f yeah, for when you lose the remote control, {vocalsound} it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that, rather than a standard beep beep.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Y you know, you lose the monkey {disfmarker} the banana,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} monkey {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: y {vocalsound} you lose the banana, you press a button, and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana.
User Interface: I th uh I mean if it {disfmarker} I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable, though maybe have monkey as default. Um.
Marketing: S oh, I was gonna talk about the programmable remote control. Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s, you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature, I I don't know.
User Interface: Well basi {vocalsound} basically the um for {vocalsound} f for uh {disfmarker} I mean e each manufacturer will have a partic {vocalsound} will have a particular command set that uh the T_V_ responds to.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: It's not simply a matter of frequency.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: So um {vocalsound} usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi {vocalsound} you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote, and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: and try the different codes that
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: come under that manufacturer's name'til you find the right one.
Marketing: That's because televisions, they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it {gap}.
User Interface: Yeah, that's right.
Marketing: Okay.
User Interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that. But if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option, then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing.
Project Manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer, we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes, maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um {vocalsound} different actual units that have been produced.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function, and such.
Marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits, or is it like a few pages?
User Interface: Um booklet. {vocalsound} Some pages.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I was just thinking, if we were to store this information, some type of mapping. This person probably need to use this feature like once, you know, when you first buy the remote control, or whenever they buy a new television, so
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Doesn't have to be used very often
Marketing: once every s
Project Manager: that's right, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah,
User Interface: Yeah. But it's a but it's a nuisance.
Marketing: and it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it, so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} If you {disfmarker} if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's {vocalsound} that says it can avoid much of that nuisance, you might be favourably inclined towards it. Um mm.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Okay, this {disfmarker} {gap} just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: I'm pretty sure that you got that anyway. This is the conceptual one. Um. I think we've come up {disfmarker} I think we've covered everything we need to here. Um I think we've decided on what, you know, decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such, so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting. Um {disfmarker} So for example, um I'll just start at the top, you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage'cause it'll be hard not to, obviously. Um looking from {vocalsound} {disfmarker} prototyping of some des description using clay. Um I suppose you'll be told a lot more about that as uh {vocalsound} progress. Um {disfmarker} The user interface design, They're kind of {disfmarker} it looks they're {disfmarker} the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there, whereas {vocalsound} possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate, do you think?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout?
User Interface: Um well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it, um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are {vocalsound} are made, I would say. Um but then again, the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television, and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate. So um and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm, that's very true. {vocalsound} Um. Okay. Um got product evaluation as well. Um.
Marketing: Yeah, you see I don't {disfmarker} some of these things kinda logically follow the others. How can {disfmarker} t product evaluation, doesn't that come after actually seen a product prototype.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I think we'd be {disfmarker} yeah, no, it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with.
Marketing: Oh, that's the {disfmarker} okay, sure sure sure.
Project Manager: Um so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out, uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control, what do you think of the look of it? Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay, sure. At this stage we still have no no target audience or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous.
Marketing:'Kay.
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control, something that's stylish, so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying
Marketing: And it's stylish.
Project Manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then, they've got a bit of free cash, so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Maybe even single, just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Although of course I mean at twenty five Euros, I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the uh device.
Marketing: Yep. Okay.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Think that's well within the normal bracket. Um your idea of the U_S_B_ would I think would largely depend on the cost. U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there, but it might push the cost of the overall unit up'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system. That one might have to be based on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Programmable memory as well.
Industrial Designer: The U_S_B_ for which?
Marketing: For the remote control.
Project Manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming
Industrial Designer: Oh right, okay.
Project Manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice, easy minimal design, normally. Um.
Marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_, or are we gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's just for T_V_, but for
Marketing: Different.
Project Manager: programming it to use your T_V_, you might hook it up to the P_C_.
Industrial Designer: Okay, yeah.
Project Manager: I'm not sure, but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: We don't know unless {disfmarker} it would make sense to.
User Interface: Yeah,
Marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something.
User Interface: I mean it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well something that doesn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed, you know, once you turn off the power.
User Interface: Yeah. The other thing I mean it I mean it would need to ha {vocalsound} it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um f {vocalsound} for one {vocalsound} for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be um uh I mean although you know, it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device, the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Different languages, uh different skins and stuff like that.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. W
User Interface: Mm-hmm. How uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels. That sort of thing.
Marketing: Sure. {vocalsound} I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff, that does open {disfmarker} it is supposed to be international, right? So.
Project Manager: It would make sense to. I would say to.
Marketing: It would make sense if you could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um and we'd better be careful about the time as well. We've already had the five minute warning,
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: so. Um. I would say yeah. International would make sense. Um you're gonna look at product evaluation. I'm I'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap. Um you're gonna look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um looks like we're gonna need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay. {vocalsound} Uh we'll see how that goes. Um.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we going to be supplied with the clay is what I want to know.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So um
User Interface: Where is the clay?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: do {disfmarker} I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting, would you say?
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: {gap} they're going with the fashion thing, like the design, spongy rubber.
Marketing: The fruit and veg. This one.
User Interface: Mm. {vocalsound} I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, I would s that would be my my feeling.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Bu {vocalsound} but um but the spongy idea I like. I like it a lot.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: I {gap} having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea, though maybe we could have options for colours as well. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {gap} and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose.
Marketing: Sure. I mean we are trying to promote a remote control, but we wanna keep the company brand as well,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: so.
Project Manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on. Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used. Um.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah. I was {vocalsound} like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the uh on the top function button.
Project Manager: Okay. And I think that says it all really.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think so too.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Sa
Project Manager: See everybody in a half hour. | After a brief review of the last meeting, Industrial Designer, User Interface and Marketing gave their presentations respectively on components, interface design and user requirements of the new remote control. Considering Marketing's advice and the budget, the team temporarily decided on a double-curved rubber remote control with an ergonomic joystick and an LCD screen menu display. Users could program their remote controls on the LCD screen as well as using software on the computer. Power would be supplied to the remote control by standard batteries. The beeping sound of the location function could be customized. Project Manager informed the team of the plan for the next meeting. Industrial Designer and User Interface would present a prototype of the remote control. The team would also make a product evaluation. | qmsum |
What did the user interface designer and the project manager discuss about the trigger button?
Project Manager: Uh'kay. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So so so.
User Interface: Put on your mic.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So you forgot how this works again?
User Interface: Boss.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Boss.
Marketing: Maybe. Maybe maybe maybe.
Project Manager: Okay so we're here to talk about the detailed design of the product,'kay?
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: And here's the agenda for this meeting. Uh I'm just gonna open, say a few boring words to start with again, and start taking minutes afterwards. You guys are gonna give us a presentation of our wonder product that I can see some demonstrations of over there. Looks cool. And then we're gonna evaluate it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bra
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we're gonna talk about finance, and I've got a lovely Excel spreadsheet that I knocked up in the last five minutes for this. And uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hmm you knocked it up?
Project Manager: yep. And {vocalsound} we're gonna evaluate the product and close.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Got forty minutes to do this in. We should be fine. Let's try and keep this one on schedule.
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your thing is in {disfmarker} where is it? Is it in {disfmarker}
User Interface: Three, three.
Industrial Designer: Thi third third third. The end product thingy. Yeah.
Project Manager: Who wants it?
User Interface: Pedro can have it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
User Interface: I'll help talk.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah so what we ended up with. Production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department, which is us, is uh fifteen point eight Euros,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: someone forgot the {vocalsound} units there
User Interface: Unit price.
Industrial Designer: yeah, uh unit price {disfmarker} unit production price cost thing. Um we implemented the basic functions, which is just T_V_ functions plus the locator, which was one of the marketing things, cradle, scroll wheel for uh the {vocalsound} the channels, and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping, your favourite channels functionality, in the scroll.
Project Manager: Zapping your favourite channels, eh?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Scrolling through your favourites list.
Project Manager: Oh okay okay.
Industrial Designer: Zapping you know zapping.
Project Manager: Ah'kay okay, that's favourites.
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's just a Portuguese thing {vocalsound}. And um yeah that was the result.
Project Manager: Ah'kay. I like the the the the logo on there as well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's very prominent {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: It is very prominent. So this is the {disfmarker}
User Interface: So {vocalsound} here I'll give you the {disfmarker} so this is the cradle unit, and this is the actual remote itself. Um so the scroll bar is {disfmarker} or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here, um and then the volume controls are here and here.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Uh you've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten. This is the power button. Uh we have our um {vocalsound} we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here? This is the teletext.
Industrial Designer: Start s the the start uh to to to
User Interface: The programme button,
Industrial Designer: programme yeah.
Project Manager: Ah, okay I see.
User Interface: yeah the programme button. So this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming {vocalsound} your uh the um the type of television you wanna use. So um the plastic is the white area of this {disfmarker} of the model here, and the red area is like a rubber covering.
Project Manager: It's pretty cool.
User Interface: So you can see that when it lays like this or like this {disfmarker} and the buttons are all gonna be rubber, so it's pretty hard to actually damage it um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that {disfmarker} could that be easy to {disfmarker} for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it?
User Interface: Yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem, but if you drop it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not helping {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Oh well I guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it.
User Interface: Yeah and it depends on if it's sliding, but I think it's pretty ergonomic. You can feel it.
Project Manager: Mm. Feels good.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I take it that this is gonna be slightly lighter in the final design as well.
User Interface: Yeah of course. Well this is clay {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah it's kinda cool. You have to reach a little bit don't you.
User Interface: Yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach, but I think we might scale down the final model a bit.
Project Manager: Ah yeah that wouldn't make sense.
User Interface: {vocalsound} These {disfmarker} this is a bit larger than it would be, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's cool. I'm impressed.
Industrial Designer: Don't have no one to handle that.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And hold it so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: wh what's the marketing perspective?
Marketing: oh that's {disfmarker} oh I like it. I mean you guys gave me more than I was asking for, so I'm happy because we've got some really marketable features in this. Yeah I think it's good. Good good good job.
User Interface: Mm Pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where's my remote.
User Interface: Beep beep beep.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh pla
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The locator function.
Marketing: I'm ha
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: It's great. That's great. It's a great feature.
User Interface: Um beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm it's impressing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wicked isn't it? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So let me get it,
User Interface: so {vocalsound}
Project Manager: if I press this button {disfmarker}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I see. That's pretty cool. Hang on. {vocalsound}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} be shut up. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he'll be across town {disfmarker}
User Interface: Beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I plan to do that as well.
User Interface: okay. Um no no no tha that's alri
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So the the two blue {disfmarker} are are those for the the it to charge off of {disfmarker} in?
User Interface: Exactly that's exactly what those are for.
Project Manager: Ah okay okay.
User Interface: And um there's one other feature that we were debating, but we decided to go against it, is um {disfmarker} you could
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} it's the right shape isn't it?
User Interface: it it's it kinda feels like there should be something there, but we couldn't figure out what button is important enough to put there. And we we don't wanna accidentally be hitting the power button like that so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager:'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides {gap}.
User Interface: Right. So maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, I can see that.
Project Manager: But it's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that, hasn't it?
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yep I like. Good job.
Project Manager: So is that the the final colour scheme as well or?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No no.
User Interface: Oh no this is {vocalsound} just what we had to work with at the time.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So we'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people.
Project Manager: The {disfmarker} hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Careful.
Project Manager: It came off. The scroll wheels, {gap} a problem with them not being sort of {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore.
Marketing: Well I mean of course, I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: My my s my suggestion is we're gonna go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: You know some blend of silvers and blacks.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Beep beep beep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay enough of that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well i it's cool guys.'Kay so are we done with the this presentation?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Ja.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now now.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you're not gonna find my uh my folder up there I gotta do mine up at the board.
Project Manager: Have you? Okay.
Marketing: Yeah yeah. So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can I not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now?
Marketing: No it's not in there because I had the computer problem and I I I cou I couldn't create it.
Project Manager: Oh I see I see.
Marketing: I couldn't create it in the PowerPoint,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and I think I've got this really strange cable. So what I had, basically going from the PowerPoint format, is that uh yeah yeah I like this a lot. Is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So what we had is we had the method. That's not how you spell method, is it?
User Interface: No way.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No A_ {vocalsound}. {gap}. {vocalsound} So this doesn't go so fast this way. And when I speak about method I speak about the marketing of the product huh. And uh to me with this product we got uh {disfmarker} we got {vocalsound} basically three things to market. We've got the features, we have the uh characteristics, and we have the {vocalsound} I I don't know what we would call the other part {disfmarker} what we call you know the the {vocalsound} the corp corporate {disfmarker} Help me. The the corporation stands behind the product, okay. So the features I think {vocalsound} we got the scroll, we've got the uh the locator, we've got the durability, we've got the dependability,
Industrial Designer: It fell off.
Marketing: we've got you know the features that make this a unique product. Um
User Interface: Beep beep beep.
Marketing: {vocalsound} the characteristics I talk about, we have reliability, we have comfort, we have ergonomics, we have environmentally s sensitive. Uh and the corporation, we're talking about {disfmarker} we're we're a new we're a new company. We're wanting to make a name for ourself. We're wanting you to uh find our product so we're gonna give you a good product at a fair price. One thing I would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product, a normal use guarantee, which means that this product, for the for the life of of {disfmarker} the life use, if it should have a technical problem, that we could re replace it at no cost? That was something I would be interested in. Um so {vocalsound} yeah without uh going into great details, we have a we have a product, it has the features and the characteristics, and the background, I believe, to make it marketable I believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty Euros. We're gonna be competitive, and we're gonna we're gonna have a market niche. Um w
Project Manager: Do you {disfmarker} would you a argue that that we're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could, but lowering our profit margins?
Marketing: That that would be uh that would be I think a decision best made by corporate um I I m for my evaluation, based on what our competition is, I th I think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm'kay.
Marketing: But I'm sh I'm sure open to to market this in either direction. But you guys came up with a great product, and at that cost I think it uh {disfmarker} there's nobody else that's putting this this combination of of ingredients together. The only limitations I see to this is that we're focused on television only. Uh that's the only that's the only drawback I see to this. But with all of these other features I think people c {vocalsound} one thing I'm I'm hoping for is people are not gonna even notice. There's gonna be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing doesn't work for my D_V_D_ and my {disfmarker} but I like these other things, so they keep it, they don't take it back.
Project Manager: And we're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway, aren't we? Th there's no fundamentally different technology to do that.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well one of one of the thoughts that I had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable?
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: You know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone. You know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: W we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm, but you follow what I'm s I'm s
Industrial Designer: We we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works. But uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything, but that's that was just an idea I had. Uh to me the only additions {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, the plus there's the the risk of making it unusable as well, or making it less {disfmarker} b because at the moment it's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons, you know what they do, it's very simple, and it just works.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm there's a risk of that.
Marketing: Yep. But anyway that's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay so we can talk about finance now. So I have a little spreadsheet for us where {disfmarker} I I was wondering, you {disfmarker} when you talked about the fifteen point eight Euros, I was wondering how you came up with that figure?
User Interface: Well, that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay so I have bit of a spreadsheet here for this. {vocalsound} Now
User Interface: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Very co very colf colourful.
Project Manager: I've made a f few assumptions here in that I'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four Euros,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh-huh.
Project Manager: equivalent to solar cells, which I think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} and I'm assuming that the locator beacon, the you know the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: beep beep beep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can be made for {disfmarker} it sounded different that time {disfmarker} uh can be made for a similar price to uh an L_C_ display,
User Interface: Oh, sorry. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh an uh {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh do you think that's fair coming from a {disfmarker} m the manufacturing?
User Interface: Yeah um I do think we that we we {vocalsound} uh don't need the events chip on print, we only need the uh the regular chip on print,
Project Manager: {gap}. Okay.
User Interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there.
Project Manager: Yep. Okay. So we're down to sixteen point four, yeah.
User Interface: And we and we have a single-curved uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved?
User Interface: Uh I think that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur
Marketing: {vocalsound} We've got a we've got a curve and a droop. I don't know whether that {vocalsound}.
User Interface: It's single-curved,
Project Manager: You think? Okay
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: I'm {gap} convinced. But we save one Euro that way, yeah? So we come {disfmarker} bring it down to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifteen point four.
User Interface: See it's a little bit more than f single-curved. So yeah it's fifteen point eight, that's where we came up with it {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well hang on.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do don't speak so {disfmarker} it's in here, in that {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: w do we have any {disfmarker} we have special form don't we?
User Interface: Yeah we do.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that's {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Ah. What do you know {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: But the the the {disfmarker} we haven't talked about any special colour though uh I don't th
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh it's {vocalsound} a that's not very special, it's pretty {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're going for greys and silvers then I don't think we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} O okay so we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} If th {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Push-button, scroll wheel, we're {disfmarker} basically we have uh th
Industrial Designer: We don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll?
User Interface: That's a scroll.
Industrial Designer: It's a scroll.
Project Manager: Just a scroll? It's not one of the scrolls where, for example, with this one you could push it down to be a button?
User Interface: Uh no we just use it as a scroll.
Marketing: Ooh.
Project Manager: Okay then we have fifteen point eight Euros.
User Interface: It was a pretty accurate estimate I would say.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It wasn't bad.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: We're wicked. Awesome.
Project Manager: Okay so we're on to the {disfmarker}
User Interface: S's kind of s frighteningly accurate {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: We're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation, where we have a look at the criterias th that Paul {vocalsound} the criterion criteria that Paul has has given us {vocalsound}, and we can use that to tell {disfmarker} How's it going? {vocalsound} Anyone got any thoughts?
User Interface: What?
Project Manager: How how have we done today?
User Interface: I think we did pretty well.
Project Manager: I think we did pretty well too.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That looks pretty spectacular.
Marketing: No, I think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept.
Project Manager: Any other chang uh thoughts? Okay so th th what about um room for creativity?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is it the {gap}.
Industrial Designer: That was mm-hmm {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sh I think there was plenty of room.
Project Manager: I {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we we ended up being quite creative there.
User Interface: We got a couple innovative i
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Couple innovative ideas.
Marketing: well we we we kinda broke {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: we raised the price of it, we've added two t new technology to it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So you know you know if this thing flies then we've we've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us.
Project Manager: Not every idea necessarily,
Industrial Designer: Basically.
Project Manager: it's still a remote control {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Uh no yeah but {disfmarker} we did we did break with the specs a little bit I guess,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but the uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I like {disfmarker} I mean when I say we have we had {disfmarker} I believe we have room for creativity'cause w this is {disfmarker} we did it.
Project Manager:'Kay leadership, what do we report back to the bosses? No th th I think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing.
User Interface: Yep.
Industrial Designer: It was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was
Project Manager: I agree.
Industrial Designer: Teamwork.
Marketing: Cohesive yeah.
Project Manager: Synergy.
User Interface: {vocalsound} There was a lot of synergy.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes synergistic yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Teamwork, yeah he is uh.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: What did we think of the meeting room, I guess is an important thing here. Mm.
User Interface: These cables suck {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Yeah, this falls off
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro
User Interface: Yep.
Industrial Designer: And that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: D you must have very long shirts. That's way far down lapel mic.
Project Manager: Mm-mm, lapel. Wha okay, oh, alright {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Lapel lapel lapel {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Lapel.
Industrial Designer: That's almost a crotch {vocalsound} mi cr {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it's down, it's quite close.
Marketing: {vocalsound} You know you know what they're gonna have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Keep it, keep it calm. {vocalsound} Oh dear {vocalsound}. No more pizza for me {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh dear oh dear {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So yeah the the pen came in alright and it's a little uncomfortable to use but I guess it works.
Industrial Designer:'Cause this is {disfmarker} you were using it o upside down. Still that {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's our boss {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nah, I'm I'm not convinced of that at all.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I've been wor I've been wondering about that all day, but see these look like they're {disfmarker} that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around,
Industrial Designer: Use them like that.
User Interface: Pedro's right.
Project Manager: but it feels more comfortable, wh what you call upside-down.
User Interface: Pedro's right.
Project Manager: I don't care. Uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid. What new ideas have we found?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh wel
Marketing: New ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well let's do both then.
Marketing: what are we ta
Project Manager: Uh for the product?
User Interface: Well we had the favourites list, and the scroll bar, and we have the cradle, and the r uh remote call feature.
Marketing: Oh.
Project Manager: Yeah we came up with quite a bit.
Industrial Designer: Bunch of new ideas.
Project Manager: And for the meeting room, Has anyone got any more {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah comfortable headsets would be nice.
Project Manager: Yeah less sore on the ears.
Marketing: Well I I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables, but I'm sure that there's there's some justification for these things that I don't know about. And of course I did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's not been uh it's not been cooperating so well, but {vocalsound} I don't think that's the that's avoidable.
Industrial Designer: Coulda been worse.
Project Manager: Okay {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} Are the costs within the budget? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm n {vocalsound} no.
Project Manager: Nope.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Oh hang on it really {disfmarker} that's something we {disfmarker} that the costs were under twelve fifty Euros. No requirements are changed. We're still under twenty Euros to build, so we're good.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And the costs within the budget? Not the original budget, but they are now. Is the project evaluated? Mm I think so yeah, then celebration as it says.
Industrial Designer: Hooray.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Free coke provided at the cafeteria.
Project Manager: Oh I don't know how that got there.
User Interface: All right.
Project Manager: Uh anyway.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who wrote that one?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thanks guys.
Marketing: So we need to close this meeting,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah bravo. Congratulations.
User Interface: Good job guys.
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Marketing: S I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let's close this and come back and {disfmarker}'kay.
Project Manager: Yeah, I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too. Oh. | The user interface designer thought it might be interesting to have a trigger button on the controller because it felt like there should be something, but they couldn't figure out what button was important enough to put there and they didn't want to accidentally hit the power button. Then the project manager proposed that having a trigger plus the scroll might solve the problem of landing and scrolling as it would be hit on both sides. The user interface designer agreed and further suggested tweaking that a little bit in the final design phase. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Uh'kay. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So so so.
User Interface: Put on your mic.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So you forgot how this works again?
User Interface: Boss.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Boss.
Marketing: Maybe. Maybe maybe maybe.
Project Manager: Okay so we're here to talk about the detailed design of the product,'kay?
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: And here's the agenda for this meeting. Uh I'm just gonna open, say a few boring words to start with again, and start taking minutes afterwards. You guys are gonna give us a presentation of our wonder product that I can see some demonstrations of over there. Looks cool. And then we're gonna evaluate it.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bra
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we're gonna talk about finance, and I've got a lovely Excel spreadsheet that I knocked up in the last five minutes for this. And uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hmm you knocked it up?
Project Manager: yep. And {vocalsound} we're gonna evaluate the product and close.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Got forty minutes to do this in. We should be fine. Let's try and keep this one on schedule.
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your thing is in {disfmarker} where is it? Is it in {disfmarker}
User Interface: Three, three.
Industrial Designer: Thi third third third. The end product thingy. Yeah.
Project Manager: Who wants it?
User Interface: Pedro can have it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
User Interface: I'll help talk.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah so what we ended up with. Production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department, which is us, is uh fifteen point eight Euros,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: someone forgot the {vocalsound} units there
User Interface: Unit price.
Industrial Designer: yeah, uh unit price {disfmarker} unit production price cost thing. Um we implemented the basic functions, which is just T_V_ functions plus the locator, which was one of the marketing things, cradle, scroll wheel for uh the {vocalsound} the channels, and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping, your favourite channels functionality, in the scroll.
Project Manager: Zapping your favourite channels, eh?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Scrolling through your favourites list.
Project Manager: Oh okay okay.
Industrial Designer: Zapping you know zapping.
Project Manager: Ah'kay okay, that's favourites.
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's just a Portuguese thing {vocalsound}. And um yeah that was the result.
Project Manager: Ah'kay. I like the the the the logo on there as well.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's very prominent {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: It is very prominent. So this is the {disfmarker}
User Interface: So {vocalsound} here I'll give you the {disfmarker} so this is the cradle unit, and this is the actual remote itself. Um so the scroll bar is {disfmarker} or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here, um and then the volume controls are here and here.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Uh you've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten. This is the power button. Uh we have our um {vocalsound} we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here? This is the teletext.
Industrial Designer: Start s the the start uh to to to
User Interface: The programme button,
Industrial Designer: programme yeah.
Project Manager: Ah, okay I see.
User Interface: yeah the programme button. So this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming {vocalsound} your uh the um the type of television you wanna use. So um the plastic is the white area of this {disfmarker} of the model here, and the red area is like a rubber covering.
Project Manager: It's pretty cool.
User Interface: So you can see that when it lays like this or like this {disfmarker} and the buttons are all gonna be rubber, so it's pretty hard to actually damage it um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that {disfmarker} could that be easy to {disfmarker} for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it?
User Interface: Yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem, but if you drop it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not helping {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Oh well I guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it.
User Interface: Yeah and it depends on if it's sliding, but I think it's pretty ergonomic. You can feel it.
Project Manager: Mm. Feels good.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I take it that this is gonna be slightly lighter in the final design as well.
User Interface: Yeah of course. Well this is clay {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah it's kinda cool. You have to reach a little bit don't you.
User Interface: Yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach, but I think we might scale down the final model a bit.
Project Manager: Ah yeah that wouldn't make sense.
User Interface: {vocalsound} These {disfmarker} this is a bit larger than it would be, but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's cool. I'm impressed.
Industrial Designer: Don't have no one to handle that.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And hold it so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: wh what's the marketing perspective?
Marketing: oh that's {disfmarker} oh I like it. I mean you guys gave me more than I was asking for, so I'm happy because we've got some really marketable features in this. Yeah I think it's good. Good good good job.
User Interface: Mm Pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. So you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where's my remote.
User Interface: Beep beep beep.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh pla
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The locator function.
Marketing: I'm ha
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: It's great. That's great. It's a great feature.
User Interface: Um beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm it's impressing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wicked isn't it? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So let me get it,
User Interface: so {vocalsound}
Project Manager: if I press this button {disfmarker}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I see. That's pretty cool. Hang on. {vocalsound}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} be shut up. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he'll be across town {disfmarker}
User Interface: Beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I plan to do that as well.
User Interface: okay. Um no no no tha that's alri
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So the the two blue {disfmarker} are are those for the the it to charge off of {disfmarker} in?
User Interface: Exactly that's exactly what those are for.
Project Manager: Ah okay okay.
User Interface: And um there's one other feature that we were debating, but we decided to go against it, is um {disfmarker} you could
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} it's the right shape isn't it?
User Interface: it it's it kinda feels like there should be something there, but we couldn't figure out what button is important enough to put there. And we we don't wanna accidentally be hitting the power button like that so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling,
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager:'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides {gap}.
User Interface: Right. So maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh, I can see that.
Project Manager: But it's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that, hasn't it?
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yep I like. Good job.
Project Manager: So is that the the final colour scheme as well or?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No no.
User Interface: Oh no this is {vocalsound} just what we had to work with at the time.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So we'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people.
Project Manager: The {disfmarker} hmm.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Careful.
Project Manager: It came off. The scroll wheels, {gap} a problem with them not being sort of {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore.
Marketing: Well I mean of course, I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: My my s my suggestion is we're gonna go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: You know some blend of silvers and blacks.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Beep beep beep. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay enough of that.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well i it's cool guys.'Kay so are we done with the this presentation?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Ja.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now now.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you're not gonna find my uh my folder up there I gotta do mine up at the board.
Project Manager: Have you? Okay.
Marketing: Yeah yeah. So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can I not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now?
Marketing: No it's not in there because I had the computer problem and I I I cou I couldn't create it.
Project Manager: Oh I see I see.
Marketing: I couldn't create it in the PowerPoint,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and I think I've got this really strange cable. So what I had, basically going from the PowerPoint format, is that uh yeah yeah I like this a lot. Is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So what we had is we had the method. That's not how you spell method, is it?
User Interface: No way.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No A_ {vocalsound}. {gap}. {vocalsound} So this doesn't go so fast this way. And when I speak about method I speak about the marketing of the product huh. And uh to me with this product we got uh {disfmarker} we got {vocalsound} basically three things to market. We've got the features, we have the uh characteristics, and we have the {vocalsound} I I don't know what we would call the other part {disfmarker} what we call you know the the {vocalsound} the corp corporate {disfmarker} Help me. The the corporation stands behind the product, okay. So the features I think {vocalsound} we got the scroll, we've got the uh the locator, we've got the durability, we've got the dependability,
Industrial Designer: It fell off.
Marketing: we've got you know the features that make this a unique product. Um
User Interface: Beep beep beep.
Marketing: {vocalsound} the characteristics I talk about, we have reliability, we have comfort, we have ergonomics, we have environmentally s sensitive. Uh and the corporation, we're talking about {disfmarker} we're we're a new we're a new company. We're wanting to make a name for ourself. We're wanting you to uh find our product so we're gonna give you a good product at a fair price. One thing I would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product, a normal use guarantee, which means that this product, for the for the life of of {disfmarker} the life use, if it should have a technical problem, that we could re replace it at no cost? That was something I would be interested in. Um so {vocalsound} yeah without uh going into great details, we have a we have a product, it has the features and the characteristics, and the background, I believe, to make it marketable I believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty Euros. We're gonna be competitive, and we're gonna we're gonna have a market niche. Um w
Project Manager: Do you {disfmarker} would you a argue that that we're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could, but lowering our profit margins?
Marketing: That that would be uh that would be I think a decision best made by corporate um I I m for my evaluation, based on what our competition is, I th I think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm'kay.
Marketing: But I'm sh I'm sure open to to market this in either direction. But you guys came up with a great product, and at that cost I think it uh {disfmarker} there's nobody else that's putting this this combination of of ingredients together. The only limitations I see to this is that we're focused on television only. Uh that's the only that's the only drawback I see to this. But with all of these other features I think people c {vocalsound} one thing I'm I'm hoping for is people are not gonna even notice. There's gonna be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing doesn't work for my D_V_D_ and my {disfmarker} but I like these other things, so they keep it, they don't take it back.
Project Manager: And we're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway, aren't we? Th there's no fundamentally different technology to do that.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well one of one of the thoughts that I had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable?
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: You know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone. You know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: W we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Mm-hmm, but you follow what I'm s I'm s
Industrial Designer: We we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works. But uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything, but that's that was just an idea I had. Uh to me the only additions {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, the plus there's the the risk of making it unusable as well, or making it less {disfmarker} b because at the moment it's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons, you know what they do, it's very simple, and it just works.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm there's a risk of that.
Marketing: Yep. But anyway that's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay so we can talk about finance now. So I have a little spreadsheet for us where {disfmarker} I I was wondering, you {disfmarker} when you talked about the fifteen point eight Euros, I was wondering how you came up with that figure?
User Interface: Well, that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay so I have bit of a spreadsheet here for this. {vocalsound} Now
User Interface: Oh.
Industrial Designer: Very co very colf colourful.
Project Manager: I've made a f few assumptions here in that I'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four Euros,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh-huh.
Project Manager: equivalent to solar cells, which I think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already.
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} and I'm assuming that the locator beacon, the you know the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: beep beep beep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can be made for {disfmarker} it sounded different that time {disfmarker} uh can be made for a similar price to uh an L_C_ display,
User Interface: Oh, sorry. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh an uh {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh do you think that's fair coming from a {disfmarker} m the manufacturing?
User Interface: Yeah um I do think we that we we {vocalsound} uh don't need the events chip on print, we only need the uh the regular chip on print,
Project Manager: {gap}. Okay.
User Interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there.
Project Manager: Yep. Okay. So we're down to sixteen point four, yeah.
User Interface: And we and we have a single-curved uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved?
User Interface: Uh I think that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur
Marketing: {vocalsound} We've got a we've got a curve and a droop. I don't know whether that {vocalsound}.
User Interface: It's single-curved,
Project Manager: You think? Okay
User Interface: yeah.
Project Manager: I'm {gap} convinced. But we save one Euro that way, yeah? So we come {disfmarker} bring it down to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifteen point four.
User Interface: See it's a little bit more than f single-curved. So yeah it's fifteen point eight, that's where we came up with it {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well hang on.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do don't speak so {disfmarker} it's in here, in that {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: w do we have any {disfmarker} we have special form don't we?
User Interface: Yeah we do.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So that's {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: Ah. What do you know {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: But the the the {disfmarker} we haven't talked about any special colour though uh I don't th
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh it's {vocalsound} a that's not very special, it's pretty {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're going for greys and silvers then I don't think we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} O okay so we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} If th {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Push-button, scroll wheel, we're {disfmarker} basically we have uh th
Industrial Designer: We don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll?
User Interface: That's a scroll.
Industrial Designer: It's a scroll.
Project Manager: Just a scroll? It's not one of the scrolls where, for example, with this one you could push it down to be a button?
User Interface: Uh no we just use it as a scroll.
Marketing: Ooh.
Project Manager: Okay then we have fifteen point eight Euros.
User Interface: It was a pretty accurate estimate I would say.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It wasn't bad.
Industrial Designer: Yes.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: We're wicked. Awesome.
Project Manager: Okay so we're on to the {disfmarker}
User Interface: S's kind of s frighteningly accurate {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: We're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation, where we have a look at the criterias th that Paul {vocalsound} the criterion criteria that Paul has has given us {vocalsound}, and we can use that to tell {disfmarker} How's it going? {vocalsound} Anyone got any thoughts?
User Interface: What?
Project Manager: How how have we done today?
User Interface: I think we did pretty well.
Project Manager: I think we did pretty well too.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: That looks pretty spectacular.
Marketing: No, I think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept.
Project Manager: Any other chang uh thoughts? Okay so th th what about um room for creativity?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is it the {gap}.
Industrial Designer: That was mm-hmm {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sh I think there was plenty of room.
Project Manager: I {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: I think we we ended up being quite creative there.
User Interface: We got a couple innovative i
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Couple innovative ideas.
Marketing: well we we we kinda broke {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: No.
Marketing: we raised the price of it, we've added two t new technology to it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So you know you know if this thing flies then we've we've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us.
Project Manager: Not every idea necessarily,
Industrial Designer: Basically.
Project Manager: it's still a remote control {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Uh no yeah but {disfmarker} we did we did break with the specs a little bit I guess,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but the uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I like {disfmarker} I mean when I say we have we had {disfmarker} I believe we have room for creativity'cause w this is {disfmarker} we did it.
Project Manager:'Kay leadership, what do we report back to the bosses? No th th I think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing.
User Interface: Yep.
Industrial Designer: It was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was
Project Manager: I agree.
Industrial Designer: Teamwork.
Marketing: Cohesive yeah.
Project Manager: Synergy.
User Interface: {vocalsound} There was a lot of synergy.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes synergistic yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Teamwork, yeah he is uh.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: What did we think of the meeting room, I guess is an important thing here. Mm.
User Interface: These cables suck {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: Yeah, this falls off
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro
User Interface: Yep.
Industrial Designer: And that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: D you must have very long shirts. That's way far down lapel mic.
Project Manager: Mm-mm, lapel. Wha okay, oh, alright {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Lapel lapel lapel {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Lapel.
Industrial Designer: That's almost a crotch {vocalsound} mi cr {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it's down, it's quite close.
Marketing: {vocalsound} You know you know what they're gonna have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Keep it, keep it calm. {vocalsound} Oh dear {vocalsound}. No more pizza for me {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh dear oh dear {vocalsound}.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So yeah the the pen came in alright and it's a little uncomfortable to use but I guess it works.
Industrial Designer:'Cause this is {disfmarker} you were using it o upside down. Still that {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's our boss {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nah, I'm I'm not convinced of that at all.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I've been wor I've been wondering about that all day, but see these look like they're {disfmarker} that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around,
Industrial Designer: Use them like that.
User Interface: Pedro's right.
Project Manager: but it feels more comfortable, wh what you call upside-down.
User Interface: Pedro's right.
Project Manager: I don't care. Uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid. What new ideas have we found?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh wel
Marketing: New ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well let's do both then.
Marketing: what are we ta
Project Manager: Uh for the product?
User Interface: Well we had the favourites list, and the scroll bar, and we have the cradle, and the r uh remote call feature.
Marketing: Oh.
Project Manager: Yeah we came up with quite a bit.
Industrial Designer: Bunch of new ideas.
Project Manager: And for the meeting room, Has anyone got any more {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah comfortable headsets would be nice.
Project Manager: Yeah less sore on the ears.
Marketing: Well I I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables, but I'm sure that there's there's some justification for these things that I don't know about. And of course I did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's not been uh it's not been cooperating so well, but {vocalsound} I don't think that's the that's avoidable.
Industrial Designer: Coulda been worse.
Project Manager: Okay {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} Are the costs within the budget? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm n {vocalsound} no.
Project Manager: Nope.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Oh hang on it really {disfmarker} that's something we {disfmarker} that the costs were under twelve fifty Euros. No requirements are changed. We're still under twenty Euros to build, so we're good.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And the costs within the budget? Not the original budget, but they are now. Is the project evaluated? Mm I think so yeah, then celebration as it says.
Industrial Designer: Hooray.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: Free coke provided at the cafeteria.
Project Manager: Oh I don't know how that got there.
User Interface: All right.
Project Manager: Uh anyway.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who wrote that one?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thanks guys.
Marketing: So we need to close this meeting,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah bravo. Congratulations.
User Interface: Good job guys.
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Marketing: S I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let's close this and come back and {disfmarker}'kay.
Project Manager: Yeah, I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too. Oh. | The group mainly talked about the detailed design of the product at this meeting. First, the industrial designer introduced the function design of the product. It had not only some basic functions, but also the locator function and provided users with a revolutionary way of zapping. Later, the group went on to check the controller's paging ability and talked about more details on buttons. Next, the marketing expert mentioned three things making the product marketable and one possible drawback of the product. Besides, the marketing recommended making it upgradable but the project manager pointed out the risk of doing that. When evaluating the cost of the product, the group discussed some details of the components and made some adjustments. They finally got an estimate of fifteen point eight Euros, which was within the budget. In the end, they did some self-assessment and celebrated the completion of the project. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Marketing: Hello.
Project Manager: {gap}. {gap}.
Marketing: Yes, I made it. English from now on {vocalsound}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Drawing or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah just testing.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm? English.
Industrial Designer: Just kidding.
Project Manager: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: So annoying.
Project Manager: Break is over.
Marketing: Ooh it works.
Project Manager: Whoo.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Spicy.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Spicy.
Marketing: Where are are all the other presentations?
Industrial Designer: I just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be {disfmarker}
Marketing: The conceptual or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah I think so. Yeah, conceptual design. What or whatever does it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah. Because I see only my own presentation {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no, can you go back one?
Marketing: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh'cause it has to be PowerPoint pre yeah components design, that's it.
Marketing: This? {gap} I'll just put it in there.
Project Manager: So, he's coming.
Industrial Designer: {gap}. {vocalsound} I did get a bit more done than the last time,
Marketing: Or not.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Oh okay.
Industrial Designer:'cause I knew that I didn't have time so I just copy and paste everything into the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah,
Project Manager: Ah. She {gap}.
Marketing: I can't cut and paste it into the other folder but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You can look at the final report,'cause I have to record everything we are deciding and such, so I'm trying to write it down between everything else.
Marketing: Move to meeting room.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sometimes I have these pop-ups or these sounds and there's nothing there,
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Oh.
Industrial Designer: and also with {disfmarker} I don't know how to use PowerPoint, so it takes me forever to get something done with it.
Marketing: Yeah me too, {gap}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I I've got the same problem as well. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Here we go again. Welcome. Uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh {disfmarker} f the remote control has to support.
Industrial Designer: Thi
Project Manager: So who wants go.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yes.
Project Manager: Yes?
Industrial Designer: Who wants to start?
Marketing: Me first again or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah sure. Doesn't matter.
User Interface: Oh. No. Yeah. No problem
Marketing: yeah. Alright. Did you open it already or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No.
Marketing: no. Ah. Ah. Yes. So welcome to the marketing presentation once again. Um this time about trendwatching. {vocalsound} Uh well there has been inv investigation again, in the in the remote control market. Uh it shows a number of developments. Uh I will address them uh in a moment. Um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public, because that's our public. Um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing, uh shoes and furniture. And the feel of the material is expected to be spongey. So um the developments I will address them {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours. So to give you an idea. Um well the developments? Uh development one. {vocalsound} Uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel. Instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel. Um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface. And the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative. Um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls. I think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition,
Industrial Designer: Sound. Yeah yeah uh uh.
Marketing: so I don't expect that to be a problem. And the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use. Um {disfmarker} Well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect, w which was twice as important as the third aspect.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So um that kind of gets you this ratios. So fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention.
Project Manager: {gap}.
Marketing: Uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material. Um well technolog technological innovation, we've covered that pretty much I guess. Um and easy to use, I don't think that will be problem. So my point of attention is especially this part.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: That this will be a crux. So that was the marketing uh presentation. I had only one document left.
Industrial Designer: And shall I go first?
User Interface: Yeah. No. I I don't mi I don't mind.
Industrial Designer: So I {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah sure. No.
Marketing: So kind of this {disfmarker}
User Interface: Do you want to go first? Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah?
Marketing: {vocalsound} So a k a small example.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Kind of this this look.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing, and and some fruit and colours
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I dunno. {vocalsound} Just made a quick design.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Cool. {vocalsound} Yeah you're just the user interface hmm?
User Interface: It's better than than my uh drawing. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Marketing: Alright. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah okay but I have to design the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh components.
Project Manager: Yeah layout.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah okay.
Industrial Designer: Oh no.
Marketing: Yeah. It's okay.
Project Manager: You probably opened it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah true. Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: F_ five.
Marketing: F_ five.
Industrial Designer: Alright. So {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm dealing with the components design. Um let's see. I uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products. And I used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design. That's why I had to, wanted to go first. Well they gave me um an idea about what people want. We're f mainly focusing on this group, but I want to make the distinction clear. Uh I could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so I don't have examples of how it looks like. But it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type. If you, the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh, which looks like fruits you know, you can {disfmarker} and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore. So this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier. There is a lot of um {vocalsound} factors involved in choosing the components.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There's a lot of options that we have to discuss. Uh for example the energy source. we have four types. The basic battery. Uh we have a hand dynamo, which we yeah we Dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing, if you shake it.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Which will be fun for toddlers right, if they wanna use the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And uh of course solar cells. But I dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product.
Marketing: Wi an indoors.
Industrial Designer: So uh my {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay.
Marketing: Oh.
Project Manager: Calculator's can do it.
Industrial Designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there's n isn't much light like in Scandinavia, they wouldn't be y able to use it half of the year you know.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So that's not cool either. So um {vocalsound} for the uh a case, there's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case. Single curved, which means that it has uh curves in one dimension. Or the double curved. Um {vocalsound} I wasn't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet, but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved'cause it's daring and different from what we have now. Uh the case materials.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic, the wood and the titanium. I would definitely go for rubber'cause it fits most in what people wanna see nowadays.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um poo, this is a lot of text. I wasn't able to organise this yet. We have yeah several uh interface designs. Uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus, but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons, for the the arrow buttons.
User Interface: Yeah. Pushbuttons. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that's not really interesting.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Electronics? Yeah, {vocalsound} maybe we wanna decide on what electronics to use {gap} the advanced chip I think is easiest to implement uh for the production,'cause they they can print it better. Um {disfmarker} Yeah. I think this is about it. Yeah I was working on some per personal preferences. I first uh chose for the battery,'cause yeah I'm traditional and that's the most obvious, easiest choice to go to. But I really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: As an optional uh feature.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Or combine uh both with a with one uh
Project Manager: Uh I think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah maybe we {disfmarker}
Marketing: I guess we can only choose one.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make. But it is more longlasting, that the people don't have to ever buy batteries again.
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: Yeah. And it's more fun.
Project Manager: I didn't receive any info uh.
Industrial Designer: And it's also more fun yeah. I always chuck my uh remote control around, so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, just playing with it
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: and {disfmarker} especially when the material's rubber. It can be done, I mean, you can't harm it,
Project Manager: S yeah it's safe.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And throw it {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah y exactly.
Marketing: so it's a perfect combination I guess.
Industrial Designer: You don't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: So that's the end of it.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager:'Kay next.
Industrial Designer: Uh go ahead.
Marketing: So double curved is like this, this, this, or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No it means curved in two dimensions. So uh w single curved? Uh let's say would be a b square box, but then with curves on one dimension.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: And double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction. Like three D_. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Also in in height?
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay.
Project Manager: Okay. Can we uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. One one uh very important thing I was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option. We were going to use that.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. So um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah um yeah that's one thing uh which I'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control.
Project Manager: Well the visual representation is not there with speech
Industrial Designer: Design?
User Interface: No okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but you can {disfmarker} Yeah. Just {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: So okay.
Project Manager: I think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So I don't think you have to design anything else for that.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah with the programme.
User Interface: But do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options, for the simple buttons?
Project Manager: Both.
User Interface: For for everything,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: also for the advanced options? Okay. Uh we have this {gap} very uh basic uh trendy design. Everybody says it so that's what's uh {disfmarker} yeah um {disfmarker} Yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated. That's yeah obvious. Um yeah. Pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control. And only the the L_C_D_ panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options.
Marketing: And and the and the buttons that you need to control it, I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. Um yeah design has to be very attractive but that's your your op your {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound} you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button.
Project Manager: That would be the back.
User Interface: I'm {disfmarker} The back.
Project Manager: Back and okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Back and okay yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Back and okay.
Project Manager: You did read the minutes I wrote?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You did read the minutes I wrote?
User Interface: What? A little bit I think but not not everything w
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh okay'cause I pretty much summed up all the buttons there were. So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay. Oh {vocalsound} I uh didn't read that.
Project Manager: I hate doing work for nothing. {vocalsound}
User Interface: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} I wanted to to categorise everything. Uh with a speech display uh yeah, sound, everything you you noted in your uh minutes. Um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh LED light.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: So you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people. And uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous {disfmarker} so that's an a also an option. Um that was it.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That was it?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} again. Ugh. {vocalsound} Okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use? Uh energy source, chip type, case type. And user interface. But I didn't see a clear distinction between these so I think what we have is okay. So we only, we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy.
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: Uh the case would be doubly curved. So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And rubber. Rubber material.
Marketing: Rubber material.
Project Manager: Rubber material. And that's the only thing we have left.
Industrial Designer: Yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function.
Project Manager: Oh okay. No it's easy. {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that's uh {disfmarker} is that is that the advanced chip? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Advanced chip. Okay.
Industrial Designer: Otherwise you would have a simple chip, just for pressing buttons. But we need more.
Marketing: Wow. Yeah. Alright.
Industrial Designer: I'm just thinking, this is not my department, but I I'm not sure what this is gonna cost,
Marketing: Kinetic. Double curved.
Project Manager: Too {gap}.
Industrial Designer: to be able to m
Project Manager: Uh I didn't get any info on this. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: So'cause we need to sell it for twenty five Euro a piece.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's gonna be difficult huh?
Marketing: The cost of making it should be twelve and a half?
Project Manager: I have total here.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah I don't know.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah.
Project Manager: I didn't get any information about that so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}. We're going to produce it in uh China so it's no problem.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Child labour man, we love it.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, so it's cheap.
Project Manager: Who doesn't. Uh let's see. Is there a new thing?
Marketing: Um well the interface type supplements.
Project Manager: Yeah the interface, maybe can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh it's it's quite difficult because we we haven't got all the options uh {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Ooh. No. Uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case? And could you put that in the group folder? Of the project folder.
Industrial Designer: Um let me see. Wait a sec.
Marketing: If you go to your homepage or something, you should
Industrial Designer: Yeah I'm going there now.
Marketing: get your own information.
Industrial Designer: Inspiration.
Marketing: I got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ah you didn't draw it yourself.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: No.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too less time.
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} yeah maybe it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, also the menu.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah that that w
User Interface: This is the the menu I was uh looking uh at.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah I was thinking of that also, with with a with a uh arrow.
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's easier {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Arrow.
User Interface: Arrow yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: So that indicates that there's an menu under that menu.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah perfect.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}.'S the target group.
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's easier if you guys come over here.
User Interface: S yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah sure. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: S see this is the the the standard traditional type, where the form uh yeah serves the function, you know.
Marketing: Oh yeah.
Industrial Designer: It's like really basic. But this m is more appealing to old people and we don't want that.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: This is what we're looking for. And th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions.
Project Manager: Oh okay. I see.
Industrial Designer: Not only like this but it has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah also like this. So you can hold it.
Industrial Designer: exactly. It has to be kind of instead of the PlayStation, the module. It has to be like the the Game Cube, you know,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold. And {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it has also to {disfmarker} it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people.
Project Manager: {gap}.
User Interface: Th this looks a little bit like like for only for children. So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It ha
Project Manager: The children's story. Yeah I've got it.
Industrial Designer: Yeah but that's that's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually,
Project Manager: Distinction. Yeah.
Industrial Designer:'cause we wanna appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours, and with a lot of shape. And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, and the and the rubber, it it will look cheap always,
User Interface: The colour {disfmarker} Yeah. Okay but the the colours, you you can make it uh make the colours with {gap} LEDs uh beneath the the buttons.
Industrial Designer: you know, with the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: If you press a button and you can disable the the colour LEDs for for people that don't like it.
Marketing: Mm.
Industrial Designer: There is mobile phones, in which you can change the colour also of the lights.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Maybe we should consider this function.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: To customise it and so {disfmarker} I mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and people who want something, you know, different, or more uh design, they can go for one colour
Project Manager: Different. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera.
Project Manager: Camera.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Cool. S underwater uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah submarine. {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah.
Industrial Designer: Personally I think it's really ugly.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just give me the thing that it's inside there {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah but this this the {gap} is for the {gap}.
User Interface: Very cheap uh cheap look.
Industrial Designer: maybe I'm too old for this stuff.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So those I think are all my {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: oh.
Project Manager: Ah yeah bright colours.
Marketing: Yeah. Also a kind of rubber uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And this is, this is with the curved that I mean.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's singly curved.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah?
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: That should be nice.
Project Manager: Well we could make a compromise between that. But I don't know if it's worth the effort.
Industrial Designer: A compromise between what?
Project Manager: Uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved. So to appeal a little more to the all the public.
Marketing: So s
Industrial Designer: This, this would be uh single curved uh?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah there's only in in this dimension.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Like this. So curvy or not {gap}.
Project Manager: Also.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} Exactly. Exactly.
Marketing: Yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then?
Project Manager: Yeah that would be an option. I don't know what you think.
Industrial Designer: I think the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I mean our aim is to make something different right? To make something new.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: I would go for the double curved.
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah I'd agree.
Industrial Designer: And I I'm I'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette, where you have the shape for your thumb.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So it kind of holds nicely, something like that.
User Interface: Yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons.
Industrial Designer: Well this is really your decision but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: If you have uh it have it in your hand, you you you are not only um yeah you don't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. As well. You can make a trigger button or something like that.
User Interface: Yeah. Something to shoot at your television {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: that you scroll with your thumb, with the arrows, and then confirm.
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: That would be a nice way to use it but {disfmarker} I mean, yeah, I'm thinking big already, and we need something that well that {gap} that you can able to use in one hand I think.
Project Manager: Different. Stands out. Or {disfmarker} Oh yeah a one hand uh solution.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So from top view it looks kinda like this. But from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape.
Project Manager: {gap} can turn it maybe.
Marketing: Maybe because the the screen is on top you can have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To switch from buttons to interface hmm. If you turn it a little. {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: Maybe you can c have this kind of shape. A little upwards. So that the screen is more
Project Manager: Oh yeah. Least you can easily see it.
Marketing: towards yourself, so you can easily see your screen.
Industrial Designer: How about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well well you have it in your hand so it's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen. So then you have double double curved in some way. So this this is so the screen is positioned over here.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Oh. Something like that. And the buttons are more, well it's very thick now but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I understand what you mean.
Marketing: That's uh that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: How about we do a uh a pop-up screen, like the laptop.
Project Manager: If you can uh flip.
Industrial Designer: So that the only the simple functions will be visible at first.
Marketing: Yeah? That that you can press it and then it comes up? Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And then if you want {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh so you have a the the side view.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Something like that.
Marketing: But then the side view can be straight. If you have a pop-up screen. But I dunno if that's too expensive.
Project Manager: So and you want to be able to
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: I mean maybe it's too much {disfmarker}
Project Manager: make this
Industrial Designer: No uh like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: I would draw it like this. Let's say this is the side view. That you have a a screen that will come up here, and can go down that way. If you know what I mean.
User Interface: Okay. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that it would come up like that.
Project Manager: Okay so the buttons are on top here, and you flip it over that way.
Industrial Designer: Yeah or {vocalsound} preferably even keep the simple buttons here, and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Right. Yeah that's good idea.
Marketing: Oh the advanced buttons. Right.
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But you you want {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: F for the L_C_D_ menu right?
User Interface: okay. You just want to hide them all?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So w w
Project Manager: No not all because you need most of them, the arrow buttons.
User Interface: The {disfmarker} oh.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: But you can hide the okay and the back uh button.
User Interface: Yeah yeah yeah.
Project Manager: And the menu button also because when you flip it open {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Project Manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically.
Industrial Designer: Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Activate and th the {disfmarker} yeah.
Marketing: So {disfmarker} okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open.
Project Manager: Why? You could just make it mechanical.
Industrial Designer: True. True. But you can make a, yeah, you can make a trigger here. You know a simple uh {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it, in combination with your {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} but it's it's not
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly.
User Interface: it's not very uh very strong uh {disfmarker} yeah if you drop it one time {gap}.
Marketing: True. It uh c it can go open.
Industrial Designer: Well yeah the the idea of it was, is that because you close it, you cover the L_C_D_ screen and it won't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever.
Project Manager: If you cover it with rubber. Mm.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: An adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that.
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. So it can bounce.
Industrial Designer: Exactly. Exactly. We just have to make sure that the closing mechanism won't break.
Marketing: Yeah, uh {disfmarker} It's very no it's very strong.
Industrial Designer: Th it's very solid yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah okay so that that may work.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That actually will offer some extra protection for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: What kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I was thinking, if if you have your hand, it this is your th
Project Manager: Harder.
Marketing: Yeah the lower part doesn't work I guess, so maybe you should try it over there.
Project Manager: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Okay. If this is your thumb, and this is your hand like that. With your uh wrist.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That you, that it would be kind of shape like this, you know. So it's easier to hold in your hand, to y f
User Interface: But when you are left-handed, that's that's a problem.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Yeah of course.
Project Manager: Maybe can design two versions.
Industrial Designer: Yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But that's that's very expensive uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like like you drew here.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Give it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And ergonomical shape. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I would give it a female shape
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: but uh yeah. Anyway.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The female shape yeah. With two uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Obviously. {vocalsound} Make it more appealing to guys.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: We we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse, with which you can change uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah. Some uh k esk uh {disfmarker} yeah.
User Interface: and so if you {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah but but that's optional for later I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: I mean, we have to make {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we have hardware inside, which is {disfmarker} so it has to have some sort of basic shape.
User Interface: Some {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Yeah we we better so choose one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And also the screen, you cannot mould it.
User Interface: No no no no. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You know kind of thing.
Marketing: Yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But that's the kind of the idea,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And then you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: so it lays good in the hand, and then on on the side with with your thumb,
Industrial Designer: You can place the screen here, which can come {gap}.
Marketing: you you can you can use,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: yeah, you can use the button option {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So the keywords are primary co colours, spongey?
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} but then I w I would {disfmarker}
Marketing: Spongey.
Industrial Designer: I would do the arrows here, kind of thing.
Marketing: Spongey can be reached by means of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Those buttons? And the simple buttons here,
User Interface: {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: so that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. And and the and the control thngs in the middle? The the the arrows?
Industrial Designer: I Uh y eah that's what I mean.
User Interface: No the arrow's over here.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The arrows over here,
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: and here the s simple uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah and then numbers.
Project Manager: Buttons. Okay.
Marketing: Yeah. Alright.
Project Manager: I think that uh it's a nice design.
Marketing: Uh pretty nice design. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's cool. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it looks uh pretty fancy.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {gap} or do we wanna make its shape look like a banana or something?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh bananas {gap} wierd shape and other fruits also,
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: so it's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours.
Industrial Designer: Yeah we could make {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know what what colours should the basic print be like? Like some soft {vocalsound} green or something?
Project Manager: Orange or something.
Marketing: Or {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or blue? Dark blue or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh yeah yeah, dark blue
Industrial Designer: We should use {disfmarker}
Marketing: and then and then very bright, uh a yellow banana, {vocalsound} an orange, uh a green apple, stuff like that,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: with very uh bright tones I guess.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah w we need very primary colours, like bright red, bright yellow.
Marketing: So you have something like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the LEDs on the on the remote control.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah okay yeah.
User Interface: If you we uh {disfmarker} yeah. If you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour, then it's just a neutral colour,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the {gap} people.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Huh cool.
Marketing: Mm. {vocalsound} That doesn't really work. To draw, I guess.
Project Manager: No it's {disfmarker} {gap}.
Marketing: Oh. What's this?
Project Manager: Yeah it's text.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: N no you have to exit. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You could also make line with uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah. Two hours further.
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} thickness. Oh.
User Interface: So that's blue.
Marketing: Oh. Wh why not go for the twenty?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm. Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. That's what I call painting.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Y {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that's that's a dark blue basic colour I guess.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah and then on top of that.
Marketing: It's pretty nice. And then uh {disfmarker} Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Some yellow.
Marketing: Yeah with some some yellow banana {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Banana colour.
Industrial Designer: And how about some uh some flashing standby lights?
Marketing: Like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Like you have on the Samsung, well I don't like to call brands phones,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} the you know that {disfmarker} {vocalsound}'cause I remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often.
Marketing: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: So it {disfmarker} not not only in in the colours {vocalsound} of the LEDs, that we want something to keep it visible at all times, or {disfmarker}
Marketing: How do you mean?
Project Manager: Yeah if you if flashing colour so you can't lose it, basically.
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Some some {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly.
Project Manager: Well I think it's a bit too much but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah an orange. Well alright well this is more like purple I guess,
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: but {disfmarker} it's should be more real dark blue, so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So uh yeah. That would be a nice uh nice device I guess.
User Interface: And which which colour should uh should I give the the display? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Who?
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean, the the colour of the background of the display?
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Ah well I don't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six {vocalsound} five thousand uh colour, so yeah too expensive.
Project Manager: And then you can use yellow or semething. Why not? {vocalsound} Aye.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So just just a {vocalsound} a blue blue backlight or something like that.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah.
Marketing: Green is too old-fashioned. But blue, blue's okay. J
Industrial Designer: As long as you loo {vocalsound} use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour.
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: Like this.
User Interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight?
Industrial Designer: So that people with uh with
Marketing: White backlight, and dark.
User Interface: Dark uh letters, yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. Whatever which is visible.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions. I mean it's hard to tell uh I dunno.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And also for people who are a bit colourblind.
Project Manager: Colourblind yeah.
Marketing: Yeah. True.
Project Manager: No so that's mostly red and green I believe.
Marketing: Which which uh colour should the buttons be?
User Interface: That's adjustable.
Project Manager: Woah. All all buttons?
Marketing: Why adjustable?
User Interface: Yeah? Or not.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: No uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's how we are going to make it uh more trendy. Or is it uh too expensive? {vocalsound}
Marketing: But {vocalsound} maybe I mean they have to they have to have some colour right?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's difficult.
Marketing: And if the background is very dark blue {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Blue. Maybe green.
Industrial Designer: But don't we wanna make the background the the bright colo colours? So th the total of the thing is very bright?
Project Manager: Yeah you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like the pictures I showed you guys. Those things were all like like bright red, bright red, flashy.
Marketing: Yeah?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm flashy.
Marketing: So more like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm bzz.
Marketing: Doesn't work very well. Uh. More like this colour.
Industrial Designer: Yeah something like that, something that stands out more.
Marketing: And then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something.
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: But then then again, which colour should the buttons be? The the press buttons. Should they be white or black or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Red maybe.
User Interface: And it it looks quite cheap, that colour I think.
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Black.
User Interface: It's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The green?
Project Manager: Why?
User Interface: Yeah. I dunno.
Marketing: Yeah but it's pretty fresh, on the other side.
Project Manager: Yeah. So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment.
User Interface: It's it's trendy okay. But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: My couch is in that colour.
Project Manager: Ooh. {gap}. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Well it works pretty well.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then time was up.
Project Manager: Uh not yet.
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do you get a pop-up if we {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah within five minutes yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} That you have five minutes left or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: Y left yeah left and then uh I have to kick you out.
Marketing: So something like this.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: That should be pretty nice colour. But maybe the buttons, all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah.
Industrial Designer: No that's actu
Marketing: Because the {gap} of the green.
User Interface: But the but the buttons have their own LEDs or not?
Project Manager: They have LEDs but they have a colour.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate. Even for colourblind.
Marketing: Yeah?
Industrial Designer: They will see one of each as grey. But if you use uh green on blue, those kind of colours will look the same.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I think.
Marketing: So red buttons are okay?
Industrial Designer: I think so.
Project Manager: You can make them red.
User Interface: Okay. That that's a default uh setting. The the red buttons.
Project Manager: Yeah. But I think you need to keep in mind that the LEDs are just extra light. {vocalsound}
Marketing: How do you mean?
Project Manager: Uh they they don't determine the colour that much, I think.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay. Yeah I I was think about a red uh red LEDs and blue LEDs and {disfmarker}
Project Manager:'Cause you have to print on them {disfmarker} you have a background
Marketing: No that's that's too busy I guess.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Each number is transparent.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh partly but you have to print on the number. Or the the sign.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So you can't {gap} change the colour so {disfmarker}
Marketing: You better bet better better keep the LED and the button itself in the same colour I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: So just an extra
Project Manager: Bit of light.
Industrial Designer: You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: bit of light and attention.
Project Manager: Bit of feedback.
Industrial Designer: what we should do I think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button, with uh one coloured LED behind it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So that the whole button will shine
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: as the colour the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And if you think about easy to use buttons, we have to, well we have to make it the shape so that it's easy to hold f for both hands,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb, if you hold the machine.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay with {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Don't mean to discourage you but {disfmarker} uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard. Next thirty minutes to design something so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah, right.
Marketing: Alright.
Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} You will do the evaluation.
Marketing: Of the product?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Which we don't have yet.
Project Manager: Yeah uh about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So wh how should I do that?
Project Manager: Yeah I don't know. {vocalsound} You probably get a mail.
Marketing: Oh okay. Or you you or you send it to me. Or just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. Once they are finished. Yeah.
Marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right?
Project Manager: Yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation {disfmarker} you don't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow. I don't know.
Marketing: Yeah. I I probably get instruction on that, how to do that,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: so I make another presentation I guess.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: I kn I know what's gonna happen in in yeah so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: About. Yeah. You have the basic idea.
Marketing: I've a basic idea.
Project Manager: And you two uh are going to do this. Look-and-feel and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So we're gonna work here? On this sketchboard?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Good luck.
Industrial Designer: Alright. Thanks.
Marketing: Yeah. Alright so that's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I {gap} uh make new page and uh be creative.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But we have to do it at this moment, after th this meeting?
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: Yeah you have uh
Industrial Designer: Thirty minutes.
Project Manager: thirty minutes.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: Then we have to uh see something which we can uh
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: show to the management.
User Interface: Ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: I would yeah.
Industrial Designer: Shall we uh make a new uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah l let's just uh delete all these uh {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Next.
Marketing: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I just {vocalsound} make a new one.
User Interface: Oh, next {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Oh and save this uh board.
Industrial Designer: Alright.
Project Manager: Just save it.
Industrial Designer: Huh? Yeah I'll just I'll just keep it there.
Project Manager: Yeah okay but just press save and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: It'll be fine.
Marketing: On the left. S so, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh sorry.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You can also include clip-art. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: So if you'll rather draw in paint or something {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Current colour?
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay. Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first?
User Interface: Yeah. And then after that we can make the user uh inter interface.
Industrial Designer: Because {vocalsound} I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} then look.
Industrial Designer: Yeah'cause I have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design.
Marketing: This?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So how it's gonna look. And you have to think uh how we're gonna put the screen in it and those kind of things.
Marketing: Uh pretty accurate.
Industrial Designer: So if I'm drawing and you think okay I'm not gonna be able to put a screen in there, you have to correct.
Marketing: Oh we skip this I guess. Sound {gap} button press.
User Interface: Yep.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Uh do you mind if I draw in black then? For normal sketches.
Project Manager: You can also include it. It's not much work.
User Interface: Oh no it's it's okay.
Marketing: Light only button user ca user interaction.
Industrial Designer: {gap} so we kind of want the girlish
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's included.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: figure.
Marketing: So the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction. So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'm not so good at drawing. Excuse me?
Marketing: Well it's a good thing that the buttons aren't um, well that they are plastic, because then you can light up the light on {gap} when when they are usable.
User Interface: Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: No uh uh.
Marketing: Maybe you should draw it very large {vocalsound} like this.
User Interface: Yeah but this part isn't uh functioning properly.
Project Manager: Yeah. Sensitive.
Marketing: Oh right.
Industrial Designer: How do we uh uh
Marketing: Erase?
Industrial Designer: or insert text?
Project Manager: I dunno. Maybe just start typing.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a bit uh large. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh that's a bit big. Yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You also do the other sides. Not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view.
User Interface: {gap}.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Ex exactly.
User Interface: L let's make first the the the all the views. The the front view, side view and the back view.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I thought for the side view, that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle, where you're holding it with your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Jesus. What do I write down? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Why can't I work here? This is much easier. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Much easier, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer:'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and {disfmarker}
User Interface: The middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: I don't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that I think.
Project Manager: No so I just work here a few minutes. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah the display,
Industrial Designer: Uh don't you think?
User Interface: we yeah we can put a display.
Industrial Designer: So the display we will put in here, the basic uh functions in here, where it's most reachable.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker}
User Interface: The the arrow functions. Yeah. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: The th Exactly. Oh. This is hard.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What do {disfmarker} {gap} don't have to draw it exactly do we?
User Interface: No it's it's uh it's okay.
Industrial Designer: Wait. Let me try it one more time. Maybe I've uh {disfmarker} it's easier if I draw it in once. Okay, of course it will become way more ugly. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} You can make it m larger. Maybe it's easier to to draw uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. This'll take forever. It's fun to work with this pen.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um so, larger.
Marketing: Oh.
User Interface: Yeah that's that's the basic idea. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wrong one.
Industrial Designer: yeah. So side.
Project Manager: Five minutes left before the meeting ends.
Industrial Designer:'Kay. Um other views?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright.
User Interface: Yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's the question.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} Let's fill i fill in the buttons later.
Marketing: But we we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: So this is gonna be from the
Marketing: I is it {disfmarker} if if this is from the side {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: uh from {vocalsound}
User Interface: From the {disfmarker}
Marketing: woah. Steady.
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah. Sorry.
Marketing: Because there the screen goes up like that right?
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: So then it's like this,
Industrial Designer: Yeah?
Marketing: or {disfmarker} that's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the {disfmarker} it's better to have it somewhat like this. Or does it flip all the way?
User Interface: Yeah I'm I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The the idea is that it has to flip up to here.
User Interface: May maybe it's it's easier to to integrate the the the L_C_D_ screen just into this this bubble. Because it do doesn't have to flip then.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: Because we have en enough space for for making a an L_C_D.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.
User Interface: Because here {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's better to to have this like this I guess, and then flip it like this.
Industrial Designer: True.
User Interface: But why why do we need uh the flipping uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} you can adjust the angle to which it flips. So it can also from this angle, it can flip all the way up to there.
User Interface: Okay. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: You can flip it up to there if you want.
Marketing: Yeah. So w yeah. But we still keep the flipping mechanism.
Project Manager: Yeah we keep the flip?
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Think so.
Project Manager: Keep the flip live.
Industrial Designer: Yeah because I think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I dunno.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh the the shape is okay but {disfmarker} yeah? I don't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I thought it would be cool. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Because we {disfmarker} Okay yeah. It's it's for for for more trendy uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but maybe {disfmarker} Yeah but maybe we we should then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Because we have enough space. H here we got uh the basic functions, the the arrow uh yeah button.
Marketing: Yeah there the middle {disfmarker} Sh sh shouldn't we integrate it?
User Interface: Yeah and then h we sh mm.
Marketing: And then like i oh th {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: doh. Come on. So this is the shape. Oh. It hasn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}. It doesn't aim so well.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side, it doesn't fall on the screen.
User Interface: Yeah, then it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: So there's a layer of rubber on the side.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah. Definitely.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So no flipping but just {disfmarker}
User Interface: No flipping or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No flipping?
Marketing: no.
User Interface: {gap} you wanted the flipping so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I guess but uh I mean most votes count right?
User Interface: But if you if you {disfmarker} If you drop it it it just breaks. And it has to be very strong because of the {gap}. Yeah kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's shaking.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Throwing and the kinetics. Oh. We better make we better make it like this. Eventually.
Industrial Designer: Yeah true true.
Project Manager: Yeah just light on top.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: And it's also for the for the children, it's yeah for people not sixteen years.
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you if you're going for the kinetics {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Safer. Mm. Yeah okay that {gap} the target group.
User Interface: But there are more {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone, so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control. Yes.
User Interface: Yeah okay. That's true. Okay. Yeah?
Project Manager: Well. I just uh ended the meeting.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm just thinking totally different designs also.
Project Manager: You two go design.
User Interface: Okay wi
Industrial Designer: Remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a Gameboy.
Project Manager: Oh. By the way. Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we should try something like that. But yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I uh thought up a name for our product. Yeah. It's called uh the Real Remote.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh right.
Marketing: Yeah?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With a copyright sign after Real. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ooh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright.
User Interface: {vocalsound} The Real Remote.
Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Alright.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I like it.
Project Manager: So maybe you can include that somewhere.
Industrial Designer: Okay. This can go.
Marketing: Good. Yeah. We should work in our own room right? Or not?
Project Manager: Yeah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well.
Project Manager: I don't see any power cables here so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Let's see.
Marketing: Yeah. Yes.
Industrial Designer: What the hell's that?
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think uh it's the sensors.
Marketing: See you two in half an hour uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Good luck. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yep. Okay that's the side. Ah it's it's okay. But do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons?
Industrial Designer: Yeah. I think we do.
User Interface: Or just leave it? Uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll, volume button.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah.
User Interface: For menu. Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah? I dunno. We w kind of wanted to stick with the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah. No, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah I'm just thinking, {vocalsound} if we i we wanna make something different
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: right? So the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: I think.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah you are going to design it so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} | The meeting began with the members'personal presentations on the conceptual remote control. The Marketing would like the remote control to be with an appealing appearance and light material to attract more young consumers. The User Interface proposed to add a speak recognition system onto the remote control so that it would be able to function according to the user's instruction. After the presentations, they spent some time on the button layout and the shape of the remote control. Though the discussion was mostly smooth, they hardly reached an agreement towards the materials. At the end of the meeting, the group talked about the company features on the product, including a slogan and a logo. | qmsum |
What did the group discuss about the function of rolling through the user's favourite channels?
Project Manager: Afternoon guys. It's gonna be {gap}.
Marketing: Rock and roll.
Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} {gap}'Kay.
Marketing: So do we need to re-train Mike on how to put his mic on?
Project Manager: We may do.
Industrial Designer: Think s
Marketing: Okay, can he get it all by himself this time?
Project Manager: I dunno, I'm feeling like a big boy.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Pro
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Probably not,'cause he's'S been listening to {gap} too much.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: He's getting retarded. Yay.
Marketing: I believe I can fly.
User Interface: Alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys.
Industrial Designer: Or not.
User Interface: Or not. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Just what I needed was something exciting. Remember, I'm an old man.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, ready to go?
User Interface: All ready.
Project Manager:'Kay so we've got our conceptual design meeting.
Industrial Designer: Apparently I'm old as well.
Project Manager: Hopefully we've all got exciting ideas now.
Marketing: Thirty's really young, eh?
User Interface: {vocalsound} We do.
Project Manager: Uh k exciting ideas.'Kay so here's our agenda our agenda. Um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm gonna open. I'm gonna talk for a bit about what we're gonna do. I'm gonna take some notes. We're gonna all do a presentation, and then hopefully we're gonna make some decisions now. {vocalsound} Yep. {vocalsound} Well when I say hopefully, we have to. So
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: I'm gonna let you guys talk before we make decisions. And does anyone really want to go first?
User Interface: I guess I'll go first.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You p two?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: What's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Component, I think. Yeah.
Project Manager: Components design.
User Interface: Yep that's it.
Industrial Designer: Presented by name. {vocalsound}
User Interface: My name is {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your name is name?
Marketing: Jose he man is.
User Interface: My name is name.
Project Manager: Huh hi name.
Industrial Designer: My name is Inigo Montoya.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You killed my father.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sorry I did this in a bit of a rush.
Industrial Designer: Prepare to die. {vocalsound}
Marketing: N name.
Project Manager: Right. {vocalsound}
User Interface: So so here's a look inside your really old-looking remote control. Um you've got {vocalsound} a printed {vocalsound} a printed uh circuit board here, and you've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber {vocalsound} nubbies into these little holes that activate {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah we've all broken a remote control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you've also got um {disfmarker} you've got your chip here, your batteries here, and some sorta electronics. Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: I just love you tech guys, huh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah there's a thingy and a dingy and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You press this and it does th
User Interface: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah y do jabber {vocalsound}
User Interface: so you've got {disfmarker} here's here's a transistor, and this amplifies your signal,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um you've got the L_E_D_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board. Um you've got a couple diodes here for I don't know who and whatnot {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I dunno who and whatnot.
User Interface: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} exactly.
Industrial Designer: Nah.
User Interface: So um we've got a {disfmarker} i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here, this is a eighteen pin um uh chip {vocalsound} I dunno.
Marketing: P Yeah.
User Interface: Uh it's two double A_ batteries.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: This is pretty standard remote. So here are options for our power sources. You can use a basic battery, which we've already discussed, um {vocalsound} th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I wanna change that {vocalsound}.
User Interface: I don't know if that's really {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I gotta I gotta flashlight, and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: You shake it.
Marketing: yeah but it's interesting'cause you shake it like this {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like this {vocalsound}.
User Interface: So that's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy,
Marketing: And that's on the camera {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so it's like that flashlight where you have to shake it {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: Uh we've got solar cells, which I don't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night {vocalsound} which doesn't make a lot of sense.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
User Interface: And finally we've got our cradle o our power cradle idea.
Project Manager: Okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here?
User Interface: M battery versus cradle I think is {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I like the kinetic.
Project Manager: So we have battery versus cradle {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I g I I figured you would. Yes. {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: It could be fun {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: It's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty, just to be actually serious for a minute here,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you could {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well it is it is more uh {disfmarker} I mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle'cause you're still using power off the grid with the cradle. So um
Project Manager: Mm. Hmm.
User Interface: our case design. We have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do. Our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic, a rubber latex type thing, uh wood, or titanium. If we go with titanium we're gonna be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it's tough to shape the titanium, and uh {disfmarker} Yeah pers
Project Manager: Wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche, wouldn't it.
User Interface: I think wood i {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It it it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah.
User Interface: I I can't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote, it's just anti-technology really, you know.
Marketing: Uh.
Project Manager: Okay. Hmm.
Marketing: Uh uh to me in a marketing sense it's not it's not relative. We can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever {disfmarker} whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: And what we may be able to do, and I think this might be the best option is to combine some {disfmarker} a couple of these. Um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell, to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a {disfmarker} to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable, and also maybe i I think it feels a little better than the plastic.
Project Manager:'Kay. Do you get a good grip on the rubber? Yeah okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah um {disfmarker}
Marketing: And if you make it from that super rubber, when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: You don't even need to lean down to get it.
User Interface: The advantages of working with plastic and rubber is {disfmarker} w we we'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want. So um {disfmarker} and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: But basically these are {vocalsound} curved and double-curved I I believe that the tech department, in their um {vocalsound} in their {vocalsound} message to me, that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom. I have no idea exactly what they're talking about,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: but that's what they told me, {vocalsound} uncurved, flat, curved, or double-curved.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved, where it's curved on m m multiple axes, right? I think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: or surfaces. I have no idea.
Project Manager: I think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm yeah that's {disfmarker} yeah that's what I see.
Project Manager: yeah that's what {gap}.
User Interface: Oh okay oh like a wave, okay.
Marketing: Yeah that's what I see also.
User Interface: Alright that makes sense okay. Um okay, with the interface we have the following options, we can u we can use push buttons, we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button, and L_C_D_ display,
Marketing: Ooh.
User Interface: or multiple scrolling wheels. Um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh {disfmarker} has at his disposal to put together a user interface.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: For electronics, we have these very technical um {vocalsound} descriptions here. A simple chip, which is the least expensive, but I have no numbers to give you,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: a regular chip, which is {vocalsound} like the medium porridge {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} medium expense uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} D do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip?
User Interface: Yes the difference is, with a simple chip {disfmarker} a simple chip will operate {disfmarker} oh why doesn't this scroll up? Previous previous, okay. A simple chip is required to operate push buttons.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} an advanced chip is required to to operate um the L_C_D_ display, and it didn't say specifically, but I I have a hunch that a regular chip is gonna be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So but yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah that makes sense. So presentation from {disfmarker} I guess design would go best. Next.
User Interface: That's the end of my presentation.
Project Manager: Technical functions or interface concept?
User Interface: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh interface concept.
Project Manager: Yeah that's it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very long presentation. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes, but it has your name on it.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well that doesn't bo bode well for it for it tats as well. Um so, somehow that thing's too big, but um {disfmarker} okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition. They say they could put it to work but um we don't think so.
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No. It it it {disfmarker} you'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and {disfmarker}
User Interface: If the T_V_ is working, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's just {disfmarker} I mean it'll {disfmarker} if somebody says up in the middle of a television show, it's gonna change the channel.
Industrial Designer: Yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and I think that's one of the things we wanna keep.
Project Manager: But what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize? So if you pressed it and went, up?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That kinda would r d
User Interface: Well then why don't you just press the up button?
Project Manager: Man yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah. That would kind of lose it.
Project Manager: But if it's just one thing with a button that you can just go {disfmarker} Up.
User Interface: Even still there's gonna be interf th there's there still will be interference from the T_V_.
Marketing: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay.
User Interface: It might not be it might not be completely confusing, but I think you'll still y it's still {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't think it's practical at all. I think it's a bad idea frankly.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah so um taking that away, our uh {disfmarker} the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You guys know your stuff.
Industrial Designer: it's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls. Um as for the point that we making about losing it. Well, we wanna small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed, but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost,
User Interface: That I would believe.
Industrial Designer: about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But um yeah I think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we'll do that. Somehow. Um so {vocalsound} the the {disfmarker} what I would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without {disfmarker} with a l a less complicated um design, so the numbers, the volume control, and channel control, and teletext access. Uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext.
Project Manager: So we're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume?
Industrial Designer: Ye no it's not
User Interface: That's not a scroll wheel.
Industrial Designer: i i it's just four buttons that are on a cross,
Project Manager: Nah. Oh okay okay. I see.
Industrial Designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that {gap} alone.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Uh, okay.
User Interface: Instead of play, stop, rewind, and fast forward there, that's up, down, louder, and quieter.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah um yeah so I think we w we go for something mid-sized, so something looks good
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost. That be it.
Project Manager:'Kay. So on to {disfmarker} Y functional requirements or trend watching?
Marketing: I dunno.
User Interface: Trend watching has a later date there.
Marketing: Trend watching I guess. Trend watching I believe.
Project Manager: {gap} forty six nineteen fifty seven. Yep.
Marketing: See what it looks like. It's been so long.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}.
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} I don't know what to say. When I s when I see the {disfmarker} when I see the product I I I I don't wanna buy it. I see so many of'em out there. There's nothing about that product that makes me wanna choose that product over other products that are out there.
User Interface: Are you talking about the picture? That's not our that's not our b design,
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: that's just a {disfmarker} that's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like.
Marketing: Okay. Okay. Okay'cause'cause right now I don't have too much to say about how to market this product because we don't have a product to market yet.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: And uh from from talking to Mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now. That's what I understand so,
Project Manager: Upper management said yes.
Marketing: hello.
Project Manager: Uh e excuse that, that's a bit of spam.
Marketing: And and so {disfmarker} yeah I'm a I'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that I'm gonna market? Uh without special or increased marketable features I don't believe the product has a consumer demand. Uh I like the idea of of the scroll makin {vocalsound} there are so many people making these products at this price right now. What are we gonna do to make this one special and unique?
User Interface: What's special and unique about a scroll?
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} well I don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's cool.
Marketing: yeah it's {disfmarker} I I just see it as different. I don't say it's specially mm {disfmarker} I don't say it's special. Uh I say that it's different I {disfmarker} what I'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different. I give me a lower price, give me a higher price, give me some new technology, don't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it's f at the same price. I need something to market about this thing. We're we're a new firm.
Project Manager: I'd I'd say though that we {disfmarker} if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though, the then we have that as well,
Marketing: What i {vocalsound} if when when we have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but wi with a similar {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that's {disfmarker} as as a marketing standard {disfmarker} I need something to market, to make this product unique.
User Interface: Well right I think the two big th points that we have so far are the {disfmarker} having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior,
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable.
Marketing: Mm'kay. Just remember when I made up this report I didn't have the information that we're discussing here.
Project Manager: Mm. Course.
User Interface: Right yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: And and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle, when we have some kind of design, so what I'm saying is, from my perspective, I don't have a product to market right now. Um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost, either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology. That's that is the next step, there's technology and then there is technology, which we're moving into the next phase.
Project Manager: Yeah'cause that's {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And so uh we're gonna have some new technology to enhance the marketability. Yeah uh again I'm not sold on the product because we don't have a product in my opinion yet.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: So I need a product.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
User Interface: Well let's get a product then.
Marketing: I need a product to market. And I just {disfmarker} whatever product you guys put together, we'll find a way to market it. Tha that I'm not concerned with.
Project Manager: So now {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you if you give me {disfmarker} if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then I need to I need to find a lower cost.
Project Manager: So our big {vocalsound} questions here really are cradle or not cradle? Do we go basic or do we go for features? Uh d does anyone really wanna do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first?
User Interface: Well my question is what would the scroll wheel do? Function-wise, what does that do that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh but that was in your presentation {vocalsound} so wh what would you imagine it doing?
Marketing: Yeah wh wh what's the {vocalsound} wh
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Well it's it's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm'kay
Industrial Designer: But would we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay now what I see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons. So from a marketing standpoint I have I have another door to walk through when we have something that's unique.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: If it creates something more complex or more expensive, then I don't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity. But again, from a marketing perspective I want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we're we're co {vocalsound} it's a very competitive market.
Project Manager: What I understand about scroll wheels is they're they're quite expensive to to make.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So I d
User Interface: Th they are gonna be more expensive, but on the other hand, I mean, it {disfmarker} I mean it is an alternative if if you think that's gonna sell some some uh you know {disfmarker} if if we're gonna make up the extra cost by extra sales I think maybe it's worth it to do it, but I mean I would just use {disfmarker} if I was gonna do this I would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down. I don't think volume {disfmarker} or do you think volume would be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I dunno. I'll bet first in volume maybe. I dunno.
User Interface: No we can {disfmarker} we can do multiple scroll wheels but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I d I like the idea of basically focusing the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the {vocalsound} uh dock to put it in {disfmarker} to to charge it. We can target like environmentally friendly ideas, that sorta things.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It s i m makes it easy to market,
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: it's easy to differentiate the product, yeah so.
Marketing: I think it's {disfmarker} that's right. I think so.
Project Manager: And if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product's gonna need to be more durable th thus because you're not going to be ditching it as often.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It's gonna need to be more expensive because of the cradle.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: So if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep. I think we got some exclusivity in that, you know, we got something that nobody else has right now,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it's own demand from it's uniqueness.
Project Manager: So our big decision then is like how do we do um like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details, but d do we have uh {disfmarker} What type of casing? I personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm thinking {disfmarker} yeah something like kinda almost like these pens, you know, where there's {disfmarker} you have plastic bits and then it's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused {disfmarker} the plastic with rubber on the outside.
Project Manager: Okay. Just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip, sorta thing or for {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration, these pens I think are are kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. So then if we {vocalsound} {disfmarker} d d do we want to do anything more basic with the {disfmarker} uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for {vocalsound} um buttons, or do we want {disfmarker} if we're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go L_C_D_? Do we want to give {disfmarker} do we want to have anything else on it?
Industrial Designer: It's only a T_V_.
User Interface: Or from from my perspective I think L_C_D_ is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you're doing {disfmarker} I mean it's {disfmarker} you're not gonna get any information back from the television, so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you {vocalsound} just sent it at last and there's just not a lot of information, you know, there.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: It receives no information.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: So I I don't see any reason for having an L_C_D_'cause it's an increased cost. Unless you can think of something interesting to do with it.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah right now there's {disfmarker} right now there's nothing coming out of the T_V_ to receive, so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the {disfmarker} a cable box or something there's no s I don't see the,
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: I don't see the necessity of an L_C_D_ either. Don't see it.
Project Manager: Okay so the question is now I guess we need t to decide on {disfmarker} well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What what overall things have we not decided on?
User Interface: Well we have to {disfmarker} I think for me it's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gonna be. There's the scroll wheel, in or out? What do you guys like in the user interface?
Project Manager: I think maybe in terms of marketing, is that gonna make enough of a difference to justify the cost?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Again. Well I think it's it's {disfmarker} the more uniqueness you can bring to the product, the easier it is, I believe, for me to market. Uh again the push-buttons I I see are are everywhere. And so we can go with the same thing, but we're gonna be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique. You know the other thing I thought about was you know, do we go to something like this? Make a remote that doesn't look like a remote. It's just another {disfmarker} it's just a an idea, and I don't know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I dunno about like the flip-phone idea, because {vocalsound} I think, as far as durability th it's not a big {disfmarker} well maybe when it's closed.
Marketing: I mean what I see {disfmarker} one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is, when you got children, {vocalsound} their their stuff gets inside the circuitry, they get dirty, they get messy with drinks and stuff.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: This {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: And what I keep throwing out there {disfmarker} I just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: But you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost.
Project Manager: Yeah and I guess th th the question th {vocalsound} th that you're being asked right now is whether {disfmarker} is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product, or do we really need the scroll wheel as well?
Marketing: Oh okay
Project Manager: Because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost.
Marketing: phew.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I think you gotta g get into cost effectiveness. I think if you can have the base station with a with a locator, I think those are two very strong features,
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: if that's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost.
User Interface: The {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The locator's gonna require a radio transmitter, which will {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That's gonna n is that gonna need a better chip as well?
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} we're probably gonna have to go with a like a medium chip, s I would imagine.
Industrial Designer: No it's just different.
User Interface: But we I we will need a receiver, an antenna.
Marketing: Integrated, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So it's just uh I I think that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: It should be a really simple signal though so {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know personally that would be a very attractive feature, is to have a uh have a button I can push to find my remote control.
Project Manager: And it's presumably gonna need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep.
User Interface: That's true yeah.
Project Manager: But I guess a little tiny speaker is gonna be quite cheap, it's not gonna need q quality, is it? It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah yeah. It'll be really cheap.
Marketing: Or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama, you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe not {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Makes your living room more fresh as you watch {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we're doing well for time here.
Industrial Designer: S
Project Manager: Um we've got about another ten minutes. I think that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So the scroll wheel, in or out?
Project Manager: Mm pr my personal preference is out. I don't think the cost is justified {vocalsound} for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that, and I don't s think it's obvious and natural how it would be used.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah I think we have {disfmarker} like and it's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer:'cause it's it it breaks down easier.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: For me I think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know exactly what the increased cost is gonna be, but I think he does have a point, i it might push somebody over the edge when they're looking at our at our remote versus something else, when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels. I think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that.
Project Manager: But then that that surely d depends a little on the T_V_
Marketing: W
Project Manager: because some T_V_s are quite slow at changing channels from like so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sure.
Project Manager: if you've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you're actually keeping in pace with the T_V_'s ability to to change channels. Or do you have to go through and you wait for it?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I think wh what it would be is like like the m like this, where it's maybe you know a digital wheel, right, where it's where it's quantized into you know certain {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh yeah.
Project Manager: Uh I see I see. That's where you {disfmarker}
User Interface: That was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Ah I see I see what you're talking about now. Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's just {disfmarker} it's basically {disfmarker} it it's just a f look and feel thing. It has the same exact functionality as two buttons.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I think there's {disfmarker} you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing {disfmarker} are television surfers, and I see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing.
Project Manager: Yeah if you're just sitting there going {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Instead of going button-to-bu you just {vocalsound} j you'd j j j j j j.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's kinda cool actually.
Marketing: I really I really think that's a really cool thing for surfing.
Project Manager: I like that.
User Interface: Now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid, is a lot of T_V_s won't re the T_V_s won't respond exactly the same. Some of them are gonna be kinda slow switching, so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes, and it'll be like flip, flip, flip.
Marketing: Well there's ano
Project Manager: Well not n necessarily.
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You could basically make it so that it'll {disfmarker} I mean it's just gonna be sending a signal to the T_V_ yeah the T_V_'s ge so if you send about five flip channels, if you did that it's gonna flip once.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: That's right.
Project Manager: If you do that.
User Interface: Yeah it just might be frustrating where you can't make it go as fast as you want,
Project Manager: Other than click click click. Yeah.
User Interface: but I think once people get used to it {disfmarker} I I do like the idea of the scroll wheel though.
Project Manager: And if we're marketing it as a high niche product, then we're gonna be selling it to people who are buying good T_V_s as well, yeah, presumably.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Primarily.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah I think so. I I think so.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Now the the only thing I I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} on the interface side of it, is that {vocalsound} I I I see the dilemma. {vocalsound} But if we have the option of of scrolling {vocalsound} at any particular speed, or the option of jumping direct, okay.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So I can go uh {vocalsound} presuming I have, on my television, something that tells me what channel I'm on, I can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two. {vocalsound} I know what {disfmarker} because it's on the television. The television tells me what channel it's on when I change it. So {vocalsound} I don't know that really that's that's gonna be a a d problem,'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button. Okay?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system? You understand what I'm saying?
User Interface: I think I know what you might be getting at, or or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh I see so if {disfmarker} maybe if we had an L_C_D_ up the top that just did a number on it, right? And then it {disfmarker} that basically {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh no we could read it from the television.
User Interface: Well, what about this {disfmarker} what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels,
Project Manager: Mm. Well that's quite cool.
User Interface: and it c it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You'd need a display on the th the thing.
User Interface: Why? It'll tell you when you flip the channel on the T_V_.
Marketing: Yeah the the television can tell you.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Can.
Project Manager: Oh yeah yeah no I see what you're talking about. Yeah that's kinda cool. How would you program it though?
User Interface: Well you just {disfmarker} it's one extra button. You say programme start, and then type in {disfmarker}
Marketing: Put {disfmarker}
User Interface:'cause you still have the typing you know you'll still have the keypad where you can type'em in manually.
Project Manager: Okay okay.
User Interface: So programme start, zero, one, enter, zero, five, enter, {vocalsound} thirty eight, enter, programme end.
Project Manager: Okay and yeah
Marketing: And then.
Project Manager: and that just basically flips between it and it'll go {disfmarker} it sends out zero, five, and then thirty six, and then zero, one again.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yeah that's kinda cool. I like that.
Marketing: And again we have another another great marketing tool.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: We have about three {disfmarker} we have three or four things here.
Project Manager: That's not gonna be too expensive because that's gonna be {disfmarker} you're gonna be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really. You could basically {vocalsound} come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: I dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology. This may be something that's available through our own uh through our own services.
Project Manager: Might be, but tha that's not gonna be such a costly feature. The problem we're gonna have is making it robust. Making it last.
User Interface: Oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes, between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one, up two.
Marketing: Or we go directional up {vocalsound} we go we go this we go this we go this way for one, we go this way for the other.
Project Manager: So if there's a button {vocalsound} for each type.
User Interface: No because you wanna be able to go up and down through the channels.
Project Manager: Yeah people are gonna have their favourite sorta, whether they do that or whether they {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah-ha okay. Okay, okay,
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: well then you just have, you have a diff you have a mode switch.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah the mode switch.
User Interface: I think we'll need a {vocalsound} we'll need a mode switch, but then if we have a mode switch we're gonna need some kinda indicator
Project Manager: Just the lights behind the buttons.
User Interface: to which, an L_E_ an L_E_D_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You could have back-lit buttons maybe.
User Interface: okay.
Project Manager: Would that work?
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Is that {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: okay we have five minutes. So right details th {vocalsound} that we've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We want {vocalsound} a mode indicator. We want {vocalsound} back-lit buttons. And if we're making back-lit buttons period, do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you're pressing at the time, so that you know if it's actually pressed or not. I've seen some remotes do that.
User Interface: Okay. Just so you know I think {disfmarker} I mean it was my understanding that before we were gonna stay in the mid-market range. It seems we're kind of approaching a higher-end range.
Project Manager: I think we are yeah.
User Interface: I wanna make sure everybody's okay with that.
Marketing: Yeah yeah. Well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this.
Project Manager: Yeah well we don't have {vocalsound} it's not that we have more money,
Marketing: Didn't you say so?
Project Manager: we can push up the the price.
Marketing: That's what I mean.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: We can increase the cost.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Marketing: So I don't know I don't know whether having {disfmarker}
User Interface: I just wanna make sure everybody's on board with it. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. So we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to, though we haven't got to a stage where we're ready to pin down the price of components. But I'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that, and what sorta price can we make it for?
Marketing: Well I think th I think the design and technology has to come back and say, okay to create this product we see it's gonna cost us this much for this volume, because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit.
Project Manager: Yeah no I I think that's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting, our management is really looking for us to push our brand. We're entering a new market here,
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: so I think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay I'm I'm okay with that. I guess what I just want {disfmarker} to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached, and then we have to take this to the next level.
Project Manager: But th what's our ballpark as to what we'd be able to sell something like this for?
User Interface: Well y yeah. Let's let's try and think now, how much would you pay for
Marketing: We have to find cost.
User Interface: {disfmarker} with all these features {disfmarker} how much would you pay if you went to the store, and you were in the market f to replace your T_V_ remote, how much would you pay for that?
Project Manager: But you've gotta think who our target market is because I I'm not our target market.
User Interface: I'm just asking you.
Project Manager: I'm a student, but on the other hand I would think, mm with my Project Manager salary, I would think {disfmarker} yeah I could probably afford this {disfmarker}
User Interface: If {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Then you could probably afford this {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: uh would I buy it? Maybe. If I had a cool new T_V_ and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel, which I think's a really cool idea, that would sell me on it a little. Then maybe you know. I do I don't think I'd go over a hundred Euro certainly, that would be way too much,
User Interface: Oh no no.
Project Manager: but the {disfmarker} I would be happy paying over forty for it, I guess, but not much {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would say thirty five to forty.
Marketing: Yeah, I was gonna say thirty five to fifty.
Project Manager:'Kay. Thirty five to fifty Euros is our sales bracket okay. So the question is what we ca we make it for.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Because one of th one of the things we're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: It's one of the marketing features in this.
Project Manager: That's why the scroll needs to be really robust.
Industrial Designer: Okay so we'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber, robust, with scroll wheel, with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff, favourite channels, and and with a cradle, and yeah and the locator.
User Interface: With a cradle, radio transmitters, and back-lit buttons.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And it's gonna look sexy {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Or not {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Or not. It might look like clay {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Okay so you can market pe depending on that?
Marketing: Yeah yeah. Bas th that's that's easy. That's that's not a, it's a {gap}.'Cause we have about six, six, seven features in that alone.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Marketing: Under the title of uniquenesses.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: Okay. The next meeting starts in thirty {vocalsound} minutes, although does it? It starts at three twenty one, the next meeting. So we've got more than a thirty minutes. Um {vocalsound} we've got more like fifty.
Marketing: Well I have {disfmarker} Is my {disfmarker} three twenty one is the next meeting?
Project Manager: The the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah.
Marketing: That's that's almost uh fifty minutes.
Project Manager: Yeah that is. Uh they've they've changed the times from the presentations.
Marketing: {vocalsound} You guys can {disfmarker} You guys you guys can uh create a {disfmarker} All kinds of things.
User Interface: Probably. We'll let you know when we're done, if we can go earlier.
Marketing: {gap} Thanks, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing's gonna do, look like, how it's gonna work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail?
User Interface: I don't think so. If we have any questions we'll just email you I guess.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think it {disfmarker} pretty much everything's covered.
Project Manager: Okay. This one was quite easy.
Industrial Designer: Coulda been worse.
Project Manager: Always the optimist.
Marketing: Still.
Industrial Designer: Yes I am.
Project Manager:'Kay thanks guys.
Marketing: Thank you. I don't have any emails. This means I can go home. Oh, we all leave. {gap} | According to the user interface designer, to implement this function, the users should press a button to start the program and type in their favourite channels. The project manager liked this idea and the marketing thought it would be another great market tool. In terms of the cost, the project manager believed it wouldn't be too expensive because they could come up with a partnership to produce that quite cheaply, but the marketing held that the technology was available through their own service. Furthermore, this function must be accompanied by a mode switch and an indicator. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Afternoon guys. It's gonna be {gap}.
Marketing: Rock and roll.
Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} {gap}'Kay.
Marketing: So do we need to re-train Mike on how to put his mic on?
Project Manager: We may do.
Industrial Designer: Think s
Marketing: Okay, can he get it all by himself this time?
Project Manager: I dunno, I'm feeling like a big boy.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Pro
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Probably not,'cause he's'S been listening to {gap} too much.
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: He's getting retarded. Yay.
Marketing: I believe I can fly.
User Interface: Alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys.
Industrial Designer: Or not.
User Interface: Or not. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Just what I needed was something exciting. Remember, I'm an old man.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay, ready to go?
User Interface: All ready.
Project Manager:'Kay so we've got our conceptual design meeting.
Industrial Designer: Apparently I'm old as well.
Project Manager: Hopefully we've all got exciting ideas now.
Marketing: Thirty's really young, eh?
User Interface: {vocalsound} We do.
Project Manager: Uh k exciting ideas.'Kay so here's our agenda our agenda. Um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm gonna open. I'm gonna talk for a bit about what we're gonna do. I'm gonna take some notes. We're gonna all do a presentation, and then hopefully we're gonna make some decisions now. {vocalsound} Yep. {vocalsound} Well when I say hopefully, we have to. So
User Interface: Alright.
Project Manager: I'm gonna let you guys talk before we make decisions. And does anyone really want to go first?
User Interface: I guess I'll go first.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You p two?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: What's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Component, I think. Yeah.
Project Manager: Components design.
User Interface: Yep that's it.
Industrial Designer: Presented by name. {vocalsound}
User Interface: My name is {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your name is name?
Marketing: Jose he man is.
User Interface: My name is name.
Project Manager: Huh hi name.
Industrial Designer: My name is Inigo Montoya.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You killed my father.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sorry I did this in a bit of a rush.
Industrial Designer: Prepare to die. {vocalsound}
Marketing: N name.
Project Manager: Right. {vocalsound}
User Interface: So so here's a look inside your really old-looking remote control. Um you've got {vocalsound} a printed {vocalsound} a printed uh circuit board here, and you've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber {vocalsound} nubbies into these little holes that activate {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah we've all broken a remote control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you've also got um {disfmarker} you've got your chip here, your batteries here, and some sorta electronics. Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: I just love you tech guys, huh.
Industrial Designer: Yeah there's a thingy and a dingy and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You press this and it does th
User Interface: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah y do jabber {vocalsound}
User Interface: so you've got {disfmarker} here's here's a transistor, and this amplifies your signal,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um you've got the L_E_D_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board. Um you've got a couple diodes here for I don't know who and whatnot {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I dunno who and whatnot.
User Interface: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} exactly.
Industrial Designer: Nah.
User Interface: So um we've got a {disfmarker} i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here, this is a eighteen pin um uh chip {vocalsound} I dunno.
Marketing: P Yeah.
User Interface: Uh it's two double A_ batteries.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: This is pretty standard remote. So here are options for our power sources. You can use a basic battery, which we've already discussed, um {vocalsound} th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I wanna change that {vocalsound}.
User Interface: I don't know if that's really {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I gotta I gotta flashlight, and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: You shake it.
Marketing: yeah but it's interesting'cause you shake it like this {vocalsound}.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like this {vocalsound}.
User Interface: So that's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy,
Marketing: And that's on the camera {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so it's like that flashlight where you have to shake it {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: Uh we've got solar cells, which I don't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night {vocalsound} which doesn't make a lot of sense.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
User Interface: And finally we've got our cradle o our power cradle idea.
Project Manager: Okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here?
User Interface: M battery versus cradle I think is {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: I like the kinetic.
Project Manager: So we have battery versus cradle {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I g I I figured you would. Yes. {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: It could be fun {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: It's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty, just to be actually serious for a minute here,
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: you could {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well it is it is more uh {disfmarker} I mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle'cause you're still using power off the grid with the cradle. So um
Project Manager: Mm. Hmm.
User Interface: our case design. We have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do. Our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic, a rubber latex type thing, uh wood, or titanium. If we go with titanium we're gonna be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it's tough to shape the titanium, and uh {disfmarker} Yeah pers
Project Manager: Wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche, wouldn't it.
User Interface: I think wood i {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It it it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah.
User Interface: I I can't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote, it's just anti-technology really, you know.
Marketing: Uh.
Project Manager: Okay. Hmm.
Marketing: Uh uh to me in a marketing sense it's not it's not relative. We can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever {disfmarker} whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: And what we may be able to do, and I think this might be the best option is to combine some {disfmarker} a couple of these. Um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell, to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a {disfmarker} to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable, and also maybe i I think it feels a little better than the plastic.
Project Manager:'Kay. Do you get a good grip on the rubber? Yeah okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah um {disfmarker}
Marketing: And if you make it from that super rubber, when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: You don't even need to lean down to get it.
User Interface: The advantages of working with plastic and rubber is {disfmarker} w we we'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want. So um {disfmarker} and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: But basically these are {vocalsound} curved and double-curved I I believe that the tech department, in their um {vocalsound} in their {vocalsound} message to me, that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom. I have no idea exactly what they're talking about,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: but that's what they told me, {vocalsound} uncurved, flat, curved, or double-curved.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved, where it's curved on m m multiple axes, right? I think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: or surfaces. I have no idea.
Project Manager: I think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm yeah that's {disfmarker} yeah that's what I see.
Project Manager: yeah that's what {gap}.
User Interface: Oh okay oh like a wave, okay.
Marketing: Yeah that's what I see also.
User Interface: Alright that makes sense okay. Um okay, with the interface we have the following options, we can u we can use push buttons, we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button, and L_C_D_ display,
Marketing: Ooh.
User Interface: or multiple scrolling wheels. Um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh {disfmarker} has at his disposal to put together a user interface.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: For electronics, we have these very technical um {vocalsound} descriptions here. A simple chip, which is the least expensive, but I have no numbers to give you,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: a regular chip, which is {vocalsound} like the medium porridge {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} medium expense uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} D do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip?
User Interface: Yes the difference is, with a simple chip {disfmarker} a simple chip will operate {disfmarker} oh why doesn't this scroll up? Previous previous, okay. A simple chip is required to operate push buttons.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} an advanced chip is required to to operate um the L_C_D_ display, and it didn't say specifically, but I I have a hunch that a regular chip is gonna be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So but yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah that makes sense. So presentation from {disfmarker} I guess design would go best. Next.
User Interface: That's the end of my presentation.
Project Manager: Technical functions or interface concept?
User Interface: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh interface concept.
Project Manager: Yeah that's it.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very long presentation. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes, but it has your name on it.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well that doesn't bo bode well for it for it tats as well. Um so, somehow that thing's too big, but um {disfmarker} okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition. They say they could put it to work but um we don't think so.
User Interface: No. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No. It it it {disfmarker} you'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and {disfmarker}
User Interface: If the T_V_ is working, yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's just {disfmarker} I mean it'll {disfmarker} if somebody says up in the middle of a television show, it's gonna change the channel.
Industrial Designer: Yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and I think that's one of the things we wanna keep.
Project Manager: But what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize? So if you pressed it and went, up?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That kinda would r d
User Interface: Well then why don't you just press the up button?
Project Manager: Man yeah.
Industrial Designer: yeah. That would kind of lose it.
Project Manager: But if it's just one thing with a button that you can just go {disfmarker} Up.
User Interface: Even still there's gonna be interf th there's there still will be interference from the T_V_.
Marketing: That's right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay.
User Interface: It might not be it might not be completely confusing, but I think you'll still y it's still {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't think it's practical at all. I think it's a bad idea frankly.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah so um taking that away, our uh {disfmarker} the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You guys know your stuff.
Industrial Designer: it's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls. Um as for the point that we making about losing it. Well, we wanna small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed, but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost,
User Interface: That I would believe.
Industrial Designer: about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But um yeah I think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we'll do that. Somehow. Um so {vocalsound} the the {disfmarker} what I would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without {disfmarker} with a l a less complicated um design, so the numbers, the volume control, and channel control, and teletext access. Uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: And um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext.
Project Manager: So we're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume?
Industrial Designer: Ye no it's not
User Interface: That's not a scroll wheel.
Industrial Designer: i i it's just four buttons that are on a cross,
Project Manager: Nah. Oh okay okay. I see.
Industrial Designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that {gap} alone.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Uh, okay.
User Interface: Instead of play, stop, rewind, and fast forward there, that's up, down, louder, and quieter.
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah um yeah so I think we w we go for something mid-sized, so something looks good
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost. That be it.
Project Manager:'Kay. So on to {disfmarker} Y functional requirements or trend watching?
Marketing: I dunno.
User Interface: Trend watching has a later date there.
Marketing: Trend watching I guess. Trend watching I believe.
Project Manager: {gap} forty six nineteen fifty seven. Yep.
Marketing: See what it looks like. It's been so long.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}.
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} I don't know what to say. When I s when I see the {disfmarker} when I see the product I I I I don't wanna buy it. I see so many of'em out there. There's nothing about that product that makes me wanna choose that product over other products that are out there.
User Interface: Are you talking about the picture? That's not our that's not our b design,
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
User Interface: that's just a {disfmarker} that's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like.
Marketing: Okay. Okay. Okay'cause'cause right now I don't have too much to say about how to market this product because we don't have a product to market yet.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: And uh from from talking to Mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now. That's what I understand so,
Project Manager: Upper management said yes.
Marketing: hello.
Project Manager: Uh e excuse that, that's a bit of spam.
Marketing: And and so {disfmarker} yeah I'm a I'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that I'm gonna market? Uh without special or increased marketable features I don't believe the product has a consumer demand. Uh I like the idea of of the scroll makin {vocalsound} there are so many people making these products at this price right now. What are we gonna do to make this one special and unique?
User Interface: What's special and unique about a scroll?
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} well I don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's cool.
Marketing: yeah it's {disfmarker} I I just see it as different. I don't say it's specially mm {disfmarker} I don't say it's special. Uh I say that it's different I {disfmarker} what I'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different. I give me a lower price, give me a higher price, give me some new technology, don't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it's f at the same price. I need something to market about this thing. We're we're a new firm.
Project Manager: I'd I'd say though that we {disfmarker} if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though, the then we have that as well,
Marketing: What i {vocalsound} if when when we have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but wi with a similar {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that's {disfmarker} as as a marketing standard {disfmarker} I need something to market, to make this product unique.
User Interface: Well right I think the two big th points that we have so far are the {disfmarker} having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior,
Marketing: Yep.
User Interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable.
Marketing: Mm'kay. Just remember when I made up this report I didn't have the information that we're discussing here.
Project Manager: Mm. Course.
User Interface: Right yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: And and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle, when we have some kind of design, so what I'm saying is, from my perspective, I don't have a product to market right now. Um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost, either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology. That's that is the next step, there's technology and then there is technology, which we're moving into the next phase.
Project Manager: Yeah'cause that's {gap}.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And so uh we're gonna have some new technology to enhance the marketability. Yeah uh again I'm not sold on the product because we don't have a product in my opinion yet.
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: So I need a product.
Project Manager: Mm'kay.
User Interface: Well let's get a product then.
Marketing: I need a product to market. And I just {disfmarker} whatever product you guys put together, we'll find a way to market it. Tha that I'm not concerned with.
Project Manager: So now {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you if you give me {disfmarker} if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then I need to I need to find a lower cost.
Project Manager: So our big {vocalsound} questions here really are cradle or not cradle? Do we go basic or do we go for features? Uh d does anyone really wanna do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first?
User Interface: Well my question is what would the scroll wheel do? Function-wise, what does that do that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh but that was in your presentation {vocalsound} so wh what would you imagine it doing?
Marketing: Yeah wh wh what's the {vocalsound} wh
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Well it's it's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm'kay
Industrial Designer: But would we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay now what I see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons. So from a marketing standpoint I have I have another door to walk through when we have something that's unique.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: If it creates something more complex or more expensive, then I don't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity. But again, from a marketing perspective I want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we're we're co {vocalsound} it's a very competitive market.
Project Manager: What I understand about scroll wheels is they're they're quite expensive to to make.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So I d
User Interface: Th they are gonna be more expensive, but on the other hand, I mean, it {disfmarker} I mean it is an alternative if if you think that's gonna sell some some uh you know {disfmarker} if if we're gonna make up the extra cost by extra sales I think maybe it's worth it to do it, but I mean I would just use {disfmarker} if I was gonna do this I would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down. I don't think volume {disfmarker} or do you think volume would be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I dunno. I'll bet first in volume maybe. I dunno.
User Interface: No we can {disfmarker} we can do multiple scroll wheels but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I d I like the idea of basically focusing the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the {vocalsound} uh dock to put it in {disfmarker} to to charge it. We can target like environmentally friendly ideas, that sorta things.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It s i m makes it easy to market,
Marketing: Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: it's easy to differentiate the product, yeah so.
Marketing: I think it's {disfmarker} that's right. I think so.
Project Manager: And if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product's gonna need to be more durable th thus because you're not going to be ditching it as often.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: It's gonna need to be more expensive because of the cradle.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: So if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep. I think we got some exclusivity in that, you know, we got something that nobody else has right now,
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it's own demand from it's uniqueness.
Project Manager: So our big decision then is like how do we do um like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details, but d do we have uh {disfmarker} What type of casing? I personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm thinking {disfmarker} yeah something like kinda almost like these pens, you know, where there's {disfmarker} you have plastic bits and then it's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused {disfmarker} the plastic with rubber on the outside.
Project Manager: Okay. Just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip, sorta thing or for {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration, these pens I think are are kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay. So then if we {vocalsound} {disfmarker} d d do we want to do anything more basic with the {disfmarker} uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for {vocalsound} um buttons, or do we want {disfmarker} if we're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go L_C_D_? Do we want to give {disfmarker} do we want to have anything else on it?
Industrial Designer: It's only a T_V_.
User Interface: Or from from my perspective I think L_C_D_ is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you're doing {disfmarker} I mean it's {disfmarker} you're not gonna get any information back from the television, so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you {vocalsound} just sent it at last and there's just not a lot of information, you know, there.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: It receives no information.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
User Interface: So I I don't see any reason for having an L_C_D_'cause it's an increased cost. Unless you can think of something interesting to do with it.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah right now there's {disfmarker} right now there's nothing coming out of the T_V_ to receive, so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the {disfmarker} a cable box or something there's no s I don't see the,
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: I don't see the necessity of an L_C_D_ either. Don't see it.
Project Manager: Okay so the question is now I guess we need t to decide on {disfmarker} well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So, what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What what overall things have we not decided on?
User Interface: Well we have to {disfmarker} I think for me it's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gonna be. There's the scroll wheel, in or out? What do you guys like in the user interface?
Project Manager: I think maybe in terms of marketing, is that gonna make enough of a difference to justify the cost?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Again. Well I think it's it's {disfmarker} the more uniqueness you can bring to the product, the easier it is, I believe, for me to market. Uh again the push-buttons I I see are are everywhere. And so we can go with the same thing, but we're gonna be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique. You know the other thing I thought about was you know, do we go to something like this? Make a remote that doesn't look like a remote. It's just another {disfmarker} it's just a an idea, and I don't know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I dunno about like the flip-phone idea, because {vocalsound} I think, as far as durability th it's not a big {disfmarker} well maybe when it's closed.
Marketing: I mean what I see {disfmarker} one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is, when you got children, {vocalsound} their their stuff gets inside the circuitry, they get dirty, they get messy with drinks and stuff.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: This {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: And what I keep throwing out there {disfmarker} I just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: But you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost.
Project Manager: Yeah and I guess th th the question th {vocalsound} th that you're being asked right now is whether {disfmarker} is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product, or do we really need the scroll wheel as well?
Marketing: Oh okay
Project Manager: Because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost.
Marketing: phew.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I think you gotta g get into cost effectiveness. I think if you can have the base station with a with a locator, I think those are two very strong features,
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: if that's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost.
User Interface: The {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The locator's gonna require a radio transmitter, which will {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: That's gonna n is that gonna need a better chip as well?
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} we're probably gonna have to go with a like a medium chip, s I would imagine.
Industrial Designer: No it's just different.
User Interface: But we I we will need a receiver, an antenna.
Marketing: Integrated, yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: So it's just uh I I think that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: It should be a really simple signal though so {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know personally that would be a very attractive feature, is to have a uh have a button I can push to find my remote control.
Project Manager: And it's presumably gonna need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep.
User Interface: That's true yeah.
Project Manager: But I guess a little tiny speaker is gonna be quite cheap, it's not gonna need q quality, is it? It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah yeah. It'll be really cheap.
Marketing: Or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama, you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe not {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Makes your living room more fresh as you watch {vocalsound}.
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we're doing well for time here.
Industrial Designer: S
Project Manager: Um we've got about another ten minutes. I think that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So the scroll wheel, in or out?
Project Manager: Mm pr my personal preference is out. I don't think the cost is justified {vocalsound} for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that, and I don't s think it's obvious and natural how it would be used.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah I think we have {disfmarker} like and it's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing,
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer:'cause it's it it breaks down easier.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: For me I think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know exactly what the increased cost is gonna be, but I think he does have a point, i it might push somebody over the edge when they're looking at our at our remote versus something else, when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels. I think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that.
Project Manager: But then that that surely d depends a little on the T_V_
Marketing: W
Project Manager: because some T_V_s are quite slow at changing channels from like so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sure.
Project Manager: if you've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you're actually keeping in pace with the T_V_'s ability to to change channels. Or do you have to go through and you wait for it?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I think wh what it would be is like like the m like this, where it's maybe you know a digital wheel, right, where it's where it's quantized into you know certain {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh yeah.
Project Manager: Uh I see I see. That's where you {disfmarker}
User Interface: That was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Ah I see I see what you're talking about now. Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's just {disfmarker} it's basically {disfmarker} it it's just a f look and feel thing. It has the same exact functionality as two buttons.
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I think there's {disfmarker} you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing {disfmarker} are television surfers, and I see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing.
Project Manager: Yeah if you're just sitting there going {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Instead of going button-to-bu you just {vocalsound} j you'd j j j j j j.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: That's kinda cool actually.
Marketing: I really I really think that's a really cool thing for surfing.
Project Manager: I like that.
User Interface: Now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid, is a lot of T_V_s won't re the T_V_s won't respond exactly the same. Some of them are gonna be kinda slow switching, so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes, and it'll be like flip, flip, flip.
Marketing: Well there's ano
Project Manager: Well not n necessarily.
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You could basically make it so that it'll {disfmarker} I mean it's just gonna be sending a signal to the T_V_ yeah the T_V_'s ge so if you send about five flip channels, if you did that it's gonna flip once.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: That's right.
Project Manager: If you do that.
User Interface: Yeah it just might be frustrating where you can't make it go as fast as you want,
Project Manager: Other than click click click. Yeah.
User Interface: but I think once people get used to it {disfmarker} I I do like the idea of the scroll wheel though.
Project Manager: And if we're marketing it as a high niche product, then we're gonna be selling it to people who are buying good T_V_s as well, yeah, presumably.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Primarily.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah I think so. I I think so.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Now the the only thing I I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} on the interface side of it, is that {vocalsound} I I I see the dilemma. {vocalsound} But if we have the option of of scrolling {vocalsound} at any particular speed, or the option of jumping direct, okay.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So I can go uh {vocalsound} presuming I have, on my television, something that tells me what channel I'm on, I can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two. {vocalsound} I know what {disfmarker} because it's on the television. The television tells me what channel it's on when I change it. So {vocalsound} I don't know that really that's that's gonna be a a d problem,'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button. Okay?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system? You understand what I'm saying?
User Interface: I think I know what you might be getting at, or or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh I see so if {disfmarker} maybe if we had an L_C_D_ up the top that just did a number on it, right? And then it {disfmarker} that basically {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh no we could read it from the television.
User Interface: Well, what about this {disfmarker} what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels,
Project Manager: Mm. Well that's quite cool.
User Interface: and it c it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You'd need a display on the th the thing.
User Interface: Why? It'll tell you when you flip the channel on the T_V_.
Marketing: Yeah the the television can tell you.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Can.
Project Manager: Oh yeah yeah no I see what you're talking about. Yeah that's kinda cool. How would you program it though?
User Interface: Well you just {disfmarker} it's one extra button. You say programme start, and then type in {disfmarker}
Marketing: Put {disfmarker}
User Interface:'cause you still have the typing you know you'll still have the keypad where you can type'em in manually.
Project Manager: Okay okay.
User Interface: So programme start, zero, one, enter, zero, five, enter, {vocalsound} thirty eight, enter, programme end.
Project Manager: Okay and yeah
Marketing: And then.
Project Manager: and that just basically flips between it and it'll go {disfmarker} it sends out zero, five, and then thirty six, and then zero, one again.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Yeah that's kinda cool. I like that.
Marketing: And again we have another another great marketing tool.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: We have about three {disfmarker} we have three or four things here.
Project Manager: That's not gonna be too expensive because that's gonna be {disfmarker} you're gonna be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really. You could basically {vocalsound} come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: I dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology. This may be something that's available through our own uh through our own services.
Project Manager: Might be, but tha that's not gonna be such a costly feature. The problem we're gonna have is making it robust. Making it last.
User Interface: Oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes, between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one, up two.
Marketing: Or we go directional up {vocalsound} we go we go this we go this we go this way for one, we go this way for the other.
Project Manager: So if there's a button {vocalsound} for each type.
User Interface: No because you wanna be able to go up and down through the channels.
Project Manager: Yeah people are gonna have their favourite sorta, whether they do that or whether they {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah-ha okay. Okay, okay,
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: well then you just have, you have a diff you have a mode switch.
Project Manager: Yeah yeah the mode switch.
User Interface: I think we'll need a {vocalsound} we'll need a mode switch, but then if we have a mode switch we're gonna need some kinda indicator
Project Manager: Just the lights behind the buttons.
User Interface: to which, an L_E_ an L_E_D_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You could have back-lit buttons maybe.
User Interface: okay.
Project Manager: Would that work?
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah.
Project Manager: Is that {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: okay we have five minutes. So right details th {vocalsound} that we've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We want {vocalsound} a mode indicator. We want {vocalsound} back-lit buttons. And if we're making back-lit buttons period, do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you're pressing at the time, so that you know if it's actually pressed or not. I've seen some remotes do that.
User Interface: Okay. Just so you know I think {disfmarker} I mean it was my understanding that before we were gonna stay in the mid-market range. It seems we're kind of approaching a higher-end range.
Project Manager: I think we are yeah.
User Interface: I wanna make sure everybody's okay with that.
Marketing: Yeah yeah. Well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this.
Project Manager: Yeah well we don't have {vocalsound} it's not that we have more money,
Marketing: Didn't you say so?
Project Manager: we can push up the the price.
Marketing: That's what I mean.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: We can increase the cost.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager:'Kay.
Marketing: So I don't know I don't know whether having {disfmarker}
User Interface: I just wanna make sure everybody's on board with it. So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah. So we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to, though we haven't got to a stage where we're ready to pin down the price of components. But I'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that, and what sorta price can we make it for?
Marketing: Well I think th I think the design and technology has to come back and say, okay to create this product we see it's gonna cost us this much for this volume, because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit.
Project Manager: Yeah no I I think that's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting, our management is really looking for us to push our brand. We're entering a new market here,
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: so I think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay I'm I'm okay with that. I guess what I just want {disfmarker} to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached, and then we have to take this to the next level.
Project Manager: But th what's our ballpark as to what we'd be able to sell something like this for?
User Interface: Well y yeah. Let's let's try and think now, how much would you pay for
Marketing: We have to find cost.
User Interface: {disfmarker} with all these features {disfmarker} how much would you pay if you went to the store, and you were in the market f to replace your T_V_ remote, how much would you pay for that?
Project Manager: But you've gotta think who our target market is because I I'm not our target market.
User Interface: I'm just asking you.
Project Manager: I'm a student, but on the other hand I would think, mm with my Project Manager salary, I would think {disfmarker} yeah I could probably afford this {disfmarker}
User Interface: If {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Then you could probably afford this {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: uh would I buy it? Maybe. If I had a cool new T_V_ and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel, which I think's a really cool idea, that would sell me on it a little. Then maybe you know. I do I don't think I'd go over a hundred Euro certainly, that would be way too much,
User Interface: Oh no no.
Project Manager: but the {disfmarker} I would be happy paying over forty for it, I guess, but not much {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would say thirty five to forty.
Marketing: Yeah, I was gonna say thirty five to fifty.
Project Manager:'Kay. Thirty five to fifty Euros is our sales bracket okay. So the question is what we ca we make it for.
User Interface: Okay.
Marketing: Because one of th one of the things we're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: Right.
Marketing: It's one of the marketing features in this.
Project Manager: That's why the scroll needs to be really robust.
Industrial Designer: Okay so we'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber, robust, with scroll wheel, with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff, favourite channels, and and with a cradle, and yeah and the locator.
User Interface: With a cradle, radio transmitters, and back-lit buttons.
Marketing: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: And it's gonna look sexy {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: {gap} Or not {vocalsound}.
User Interface: Or not. It might look like clay {vocalsound}.
Industrial Designer: Okay so you can market pe depending on that?
Marketing: Yeah yeah. Bas th that's that's easy. That's that's not a, it's a {gap}.'Cause we have about six, six, seven features in that alone.
Project Manager: Yep.
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Marketing: Under the title of uniquenesses.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: Okay. The next meeting starts in thirty {vocalsound} minutes, although does it? It starts at three twenty one, the next meeting. So we've got more than a thirty minutes. Um {vocalsound} we've got more like fifty.
Marketing: Well I have {disfmarker} Is my {disfmarker} three twenty one is the next meeting?
Project Manager: The the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah.
Marketing: That's that's almost uh fifty minutes.
Project Manager: Yeah that is. Uh they've they've changed the times from the presentations.
Marketing: {vocalsound} You guys can {disfmarker} You guys you guys can uh create a {disfmarker} All kinds of things.
User Interface: Probably. We'll let you know when we're done, if we can go earlier.
Marketing: {gap} Thanks, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing's gonna do, look like, how it's gonna work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail?
User Interface: I don't think so. If we have any questions we'll just email you I guess.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think it {disfmarker} pretty much everything's covered.
Project Manager: Okay. This one was quite easy.
Industrial Designer: Coulda been worse.
Project Manager: Always the optimist.
Marketing: Still.
Industrial Designer: Yes I am.
Project Manager:'Kay thanks guys.
Marketing: Thank you. I don't have any emails. This means I can go home. Oh, we all leave. {gap} | This was a conceptual design meeting, at which some decisions on product components, functional design, and pricing were made. The group spent a lot of time discussing the components of the device, especially the scroll wheel and power source. The main topics in the discussion about functional design were speech recognition and the function of rolling through the user's favourite channels. The former was abandoned while the latter was adopted by the group for its novelty and feasibility. After discussing the functions, the group thought they were approaching the high-end market, so they could push up the price. In spite of that, the project manager supposed the profit expectation might not be so important as opening up a new market and promoting their brand. In the end, they agreed to price the product at thirty-five to fifty Euros. | qmsum |
What was the appearance of the prototype as shared in the presentation?
Marketing: It's Play-Doh.
Project Manager: Play-Doh's edible. Did you know that? It's definitely {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because kids {disfmarker} yeah.
Industrial Designer: I used to eat it.
User Interface: I've, I've definitely eaten it before. I didn't know was edible. {vocalsound} {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah. It's it's chew proof. {vocalsound}
Marketing: But um, it's it's made edible'cause, yeah. It's made edible'cause kids eat it,
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: and if it's wasn't edible then {disfmarker} Well, normal babies. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Actually that makes sense, because I remember like, peopl I dunno if my Mom ever did it but I remember other people's Moms making like home-made Play-Doh where you just like make the {gap} colouring and make some sort of sort of dough.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh yeah it is, yeah. Oh yeah.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Everybody everybody ready?
Industrial Designer: Yep.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay, let's have your um {disfmarker} let's get {gap} have the uh presentation?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We've got some {gap}.
Industrial Designer: We've got a cool prototype.
User Interface: Yeah, it's pretty exciting. So, everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber, very simple and easy to use,
Industrial Designer: Double curved.
Project Manager: Nice.
User Interface: yeah, double curved,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um but also something that was gonna jump out at people, something that would be different uh, separate it from the other remotes out on the market. So uh I think if you put this in the palm of your hand, you'll see what a nice thing we have going here.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That is cool.
User Interface: So, basically, if you hold it like that, the one on your thumb, yeah, {vocalsound} the thumb button is the power button.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Your index finger is channel up, middle finger is channel down, ring finger is volume up, your pinkie is volume down.
Marketing: What's the big blue thing?
User Interface: That's the lock button, has a L_ L_ on it
Marketing: Oh cool.
User Interface: and then the M_ is a mute button. And then it also has digit
Project Manager: {gap} what button? Um. Oh mute.
User Interface: For muting the uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: And mute.
User Interface: Um and then then you can also {disfmarker} there's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So it's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available, but we think it's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different.
Project Manager: That certainly does.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So all the, I mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them.
Project Manager: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Which is ant anti-R_S_I_.
User Interface: So you don't you {disfmarker} Yeah. It should be.
Project Manager: Mm.
User Interface: And it's also conformable to the size of your hand. I mean if that's too big, it's a rubber remote, so you can, you know
Project Manager: Yeah.'S great.
User Interface: change that. So d does that uh what {disfmarker} mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh it's so cute.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I have one thing about it, but it's a small thing, but it'd mean we'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one.
Industrial Designer: Oh right, yeah.
User Interface: Ah, that's good thinking, yeah.
Project Manager: But, that's I don't see why that's not possible.
User Interface: Yeah, if we build rocket ships why can't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes.
Project Manager: Yeah. {gap} They make left-handed scissors, you know. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, I didn't I didn't think about that, but I'd {disfmarker} yeah, {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there's left-handers and right-handers in the family, what, they have two remotes?
Project Manager: Yes s
Industrial Designer: Yeah, I know I know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer {vocalsound} for the whole {disfmarker} the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse, and everybody is using right-handed mouse.
Project Manager: Mm. Sure. Sure.
Marketing: Yeah, I'm sure they'll be able to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh-huh.
Marketing: I mean it's only pressing buttons, you don't have to do anything, you know, extraordinary. I think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Imagine d are you right handed?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Imagine you're doing it with your left hand, I don't think it's too {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But we can have both uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Have them in stock.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Marketing: Make'em more appealing as well.
Project Manager: But um other than that, I mean uh and that's um, you know, that's just something, I think I think it's great, yeah, great idea.
User Interface: Do you think it says {vocalsound} R_R_?
Industrial Designer: {gap} I think it does. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's, well, if the R_R_ motto is, we bring fashion to to electronics, I'd say that could be quite fashionable.
User Interface: Fashion to electronics. Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. And it's got the b the black and yellow and blue.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
User Interface: Plus red, which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: {gap}. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} There you go.
User Interface: So that's that's {vocalsound} our end of things wha uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, very good, yeah.
User Interface: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's come up with what we've you know, the things that's what we've {disfmarker} what we were looking at doing, hasn't it, {gap} all seems to be there.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Well done.
Marketing: And all the playing around is uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um before we move on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, I'm just {disfmarker} do you wanna plug in?
Project Manager: I need that cable.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Thank you. Yeah. Um. One thing I do need to do {disfmarker} we need to look at, is the costs.
User Interface: The costs, was that what you said?
Industrial Designer: Play-Doh is very cheap. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well, yeah. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Play-Doh won't last very long everybody'll go like, oops, it's gone. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But it's edible.
Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Chew proof.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well, they'll buy more of them if you eat them, {gap}.
User Interface: That was the main criteria from the last meeting, it had to be chew proof.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Uh right. {vocalsound} Okay, now I think we'll do this {disfmarker} I could do {disfmarker} you know, I can do this o on my own or I could do it with you,
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Oh ho-ho.
Project Manager: but it's just easy enough to go through it with you, so we're going for the kinetic power.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And the electronics, we decided on it being just a simple, the easiest thing that's inside it. Ooh.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} the case, we've gone for the double curved. Um and it's made out of rubber. {vocalsound} The interface is push-buttons. And button supplements well they're in diff special colours, aren't they?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: So {gap} special colours.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: It's better for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Special form, yeah, they're a special form there in shapes and stuff.
User Interface: Yeah, I mean, {vocalsound} these these ones on the side are curved kind of, so {disfmarker}
Marketing: And special material.
Project Manager: Yep. Yeah. Um. Are they made out of any special material?
Industrial Designer: Rubber.
Project Manager: No they're not. They're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything, they're just simple {disfmarker}
User Interface: The buttons are rubber.
Marketing: Well they're rubber, aren't they?
Project Manager: Okay. Right.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: So let's see if that comes within budget. And it does. That is gonna cost uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}.
Marketing: We're under budget.
Project Manager: Yeah. That's gonna cost ten ten Euro seventy cents a unit to make. And our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty.
User Interface: That's cool. Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: So,
User Interface: And we're actua actually making a better profit than we expected.
Project Manager: this is all very very good. The bosses will be very pleased.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay, let's just save this so I can e-mail it to you. Uh.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Save it in {gap} save it in the uh {vocalsound} my documents.
Marketing: It's already saved, I think.
Project Manager: Splendid. Okay. So uh, that's {gap} done with this with this um doodah, so you're {gap}. Gonna do {disfmarker} what you were gonna do,
Marketing: Thank you. Mm.
Project Manager: your evaluation.
Marketing: Oh, yeah. This is where we all get to {vocalsound} I get to write on the, oops, on the board. Right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh.'S function {disfmarker}
Project Manager: F_ eight.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap} I love the smell of that Play-Doh.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I cou {gap}. {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: have some have some.
Marketing: Okay. So, {vocalsound} evaluation. We're gonna do it all together so we evaluate each criteria. I've got the criterias. And we have to do it on a scale of one to seven, one being true, so it's it's more like it's {disfmarker} fits the criteria, and seven being as in it doesn't fit the criteria. And the criterias are, and I'll draw this up on the board {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so we have a box {disfmarker} {gap}. And this is false, this is just like to keep you informed. So seven's here and one's here and then you've got in the middle. {vocalsound} So the first criteria. Do you all get what we're doing?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Okay, cool. Okay, first criteria, look and feel. So the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about? As it {disfmarker} is it colour-wise and is it spongy?
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: So what mark should we give for that?
Project Manager: I would give it a seven.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: As in it's not.
Project Manager: Oh sorry, one, d yeah.
User Interface: Oh, sorry, one. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A one.
Marketing: A one a one. So I'll just write criteria criteria one we get one. Second criteria, new technology. Have we implemented new technology? As in the new high-tech {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, the kinetic thing, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. That was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple, but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new.
Project Manager: {gap}.
Marketing: So it's {gap}. So we'll give it a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well so the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's ergonomic,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but that's not {disfmarker} that's that's a design that's a des that's a design thing, yeah.
Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not a technological thing, that's another thing, i that's another marketing thing.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True.
Project Manager: So on the technical side of it it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. I'd say it's about a a twoish?
Industrial Designer: Two.
User Interface: It's about in the mid in the middle somewhere,
Marketing: Two.
User Interface: maybe, yeah, I dunno.
Marketing: Three.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Maybe three, yeah.
Marketing: {gap} three. So criteria three is is it easy to use?
Project Manager: Easy to use.
Marketing: I think it's a one, I think.
Project Manager: I'd say it's I wouldn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: not if you're left-handed it's not. I would give it a I would give it a two,
User Interface: Mm.
Marketing: Two,
Project Manager:'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people, but {disfmarker}
Marketing: so it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Marketing: But if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then?
User Interface: If we're gonna have one left-handed and one right-handed then I would give it a one, but otherwise otherwise a two.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Give it a t give it a two.
Marketing: Yeah, okay. {vocalsound}'Kay, criteria four is costs. {gap}
Project Manager: Cost. It's come in under budget.
Marketing: {vocalsound}'s great.
Project Manager: So that's a definite one.
User Interface: Yeah. That was great.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Amount of buttons.
Marketing: Like the amount of buttons,
Project Manager: Contains only the necessary buttons.
Marketing:'cause people like a lot le like {disfmarker} So it's a one?
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Um criteria six. R_S_I_ is it good against?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes s yeah.
Marketing: Yes. Very good.
Project Manager: So it's anti-R_S_I_.
Marketing: It's one. And criteria seven, which is the last one, does it get lost?
Industrial Designer: It's yellow.
Marketing: Is it easy to get lost?
Project Manager: I don't think it's gonna get lost easily.
User Interface: {vocalsound} It is very bright, yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No? But it is smallish.
Industrial Designer: Two.
User Interface: It's not the kinda thing that's gonna slip like between a couch cushion or something, you know. Maybe it will. Uh.
Industrial Designer: T
Marketing: Mm. I think i it would, could be, could get lost.
User Interface: You think it could lost {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} two.
Marketing: Mm. Yeah.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: I mean it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean it's not fully it's not fully {disfmarker} like you can't say {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No, I mean
Marketing: I mean, it's not a one, definitely.
Project Manager: I mean, you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically, but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay. Yeah, anything, I mean. Okay. It's bigger than the average mobile, I guess.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: But, yeah, it can get lost.
Marketing: The mobiles get lost all the time.
User Interface: Yeah. Okay, yeah, two is fine.
Marketing: But then you ring'em and you find them. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm.
User Interface: Yeah, yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah. So, that's that. So that's the evaluation, so I'd say {disfmarker} Yay.
Project Manager: Alright it's all all systems go.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We've, we've done well.
Marketing: It's like {vocalsound} {gap} like a number one. Um.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Number one product.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We can't fail.
Marketing: All done, thanks. We fitted all the criterias. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: {gap}.
Marketing: Yeah, so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well done, Reissa.
Marketing: So that's that one.
Project Manager: Okay, I I think um I just wanna put in as Project Manager the you know, little bit of praise for everybody here for how they've worked on it,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know, both individually and as a team. You know you've w everyone's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments, um and then come together and worked in, you know, integrally, you know, at the right times, psp, you know, especially you two.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's all, you know, gone very very well
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: and and and be you know, has been good communication going on. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, during our design I mean there was some s some heated heated discussion,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but we we kept {disfmarker} we tried to keep it cool and and
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: just just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well.
User Interface: {vocalsound} We just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fantastic.
Industrial Designer: It is {gap}.
User Interface: Now you guys have been a a great team. Think we're the we're the envy of all the of all the other R_R_ teams, {gap}.
Marketing: {gap} been cool.
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} So
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I, you know, and I think we've co we have come we've come up with something new, something that hasn't been done before, we haven't {disfmarker} we're not just rehashing an old design.
Marketing: In four diff in in four meetings.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Funny, all designer meetings could be this quick.
Project Manager: You know, maybe this isn't a simulation, maybe this is actually {disfmarker} so it's like Sony or someone like that they're they're just, yeah, {gap} they get {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah I think they're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote. {vocalsound}
Marketing: They're using our ideas.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, {gap} two years'time this will be on the market.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ex exactly that product
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um thum {disfmarker} we'll go, yeah, we designed that and no-one will believe us.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So at this stage, I mean, is this the last meeting of the project? We don't uh have another one after it's gone gone to marke market or something?
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: No,
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: I think when this meeting's finished like officially, there b we'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Y Oh really?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or six, uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just start summarising now. {vocalsound} You can reply to the same message.
Project Manager: I haven't got message.
Marketing: See summary, there. If you just reply to that one.
User Interface: So there's no way to like predict what our {disfmarker}'Cause we had a {disfmarker} we originally had a {vocalsound} {disfmarker} As far as our financial uh um goals, we had a specific number for profits that we wanted. It was fifty mil fifty million {disfmarker}
Marketing: Was it was it fifty or five?
User Interface: I don't remember. But there's not a way to compute that, I mean, since we saved on the on the production cost, do we know how much we're making on profit?
Project Manager: It gets handed over to another department.
Marketing: Depends how much we sell.
User Interface: Uh.
Project Manager: What our what our project was was to come up with the product, basically.
User Interface: Hmm.
Project Manager: {gap} the for the {disfmarker} and just basically is it it come {disfmarker} can {disfmarker} is it within budget. When it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and, you know, the b the profits and all that that's other departments {disfmarker} it's another team that actually work out the mai the {disfmarker}
User Interface: But we have a vested interest {gap}
Project Manager: oh yeah, the {disfmarker} all the guys in the profit sharing, yeah.
User Interface: prof profit sharing {vocalsound}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um. Yeah, that's it. You know, we've we've we've made i we've made
Marketing: We finished an hour earlier. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we've designed the product, we've ma we've got the prototype, it's within budget, it's {disfmarker} does everything that we wanted it to do. It's new, it's it's um something that uh {vocalsound} that isn't out there already.
User Interface: I think actually {disfmarker} and one advantage of of this is that after the uh, you know, after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote, you know.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: We're not we're not you know, tying tying our cart to that one horse {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: Mm.
Project Manager: Well, this is very marketable in that it is it's it's something that's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that,
Marketing: Definitely.
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker} that it's um, hang on, I wrote it down here somewhere {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh no I thi I put it in one of my e-mails that I sent off. Um that, you know, it's marketable in the sense that it's {disfmarker} whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury, our one does the complete opposite, you know,
User Interface: Mm. Mm.
Project Manager: so that's something that's new, which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new.
User Interface: Mm. It make watching T_V_ healthy.
Project Manager: Yeah, and if you're not having a good time with the T_V_, you can f throw it about, you know.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's fine, it's kid proof.
Marketing: Just don't sh don't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them.
User Interface: Uh.
Project Manager: Well, you can break the ornaments, but you won't break that.
Marketing: No {gap}.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. So all in all, I think we've done very well.
Industrial Designer: Mm yep.
Project Manager: Well done everybody.
User Interface: Right, you too.
Marketing: Yay.
Project Manager: Um. Drinks are on the company.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Cool.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In the corporate bar that's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we're that've all just gained access to.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Glad to hear that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. That's it.
User Interface: That's it.
Project Manager: Well, as far as I t as far as I know. Um.
Marketing: Yep. We haven't got the five minute left thing yet.
Project Manager: No. Anyone wanna play I spy? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm mm.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I guess it's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence. Should we call the day then?
Project Manager: Yeah, I guess. I mean we're gonna get asked to fill out another questionnaire.
User Interface: Uh, right.
Project Manager: Um. It's probably gonna be the same as one we've done before.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: But I'm not the authority to say that it is.
Marketing: In {gap} project.
Project Manager: Um how does everyone feel about the technology that's been used in this? The sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that?
Marketing: I love it. {vocalsound} I love it. {vocalsound} I think it's cool.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Being all wired up and a vibrating pen and {disfmarker} it's cool.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Being watched. Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Your moment to shine.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wow.
Project Manager: I thi you know, I'd I'd n yeah, as we said earlier, I've not {disfmarker} never seen that before. {gap} something that t the whiteboard
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: thingy, {vocalsound} that's great. Um, but a p a pen with a camera on it, I don't think it's such a new thing. I mean it's i or in such a new idea. It would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff, but as it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: it's literally that'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text.
Marketing: Mm.
User Interface: Right, I think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that, it's just the first step.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Mm.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Logitech.
User Interface: I guess we should end this, since we're off off topic. So. Shall we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah. Meeting adjourned.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah. | The double curved prototype with anti-RSI buttons was ergonomic and comfortable to the size of the hand and to touch as it was made of rubber. The prototype was also easy and convenient to use as the important keys were right at the fingers. On the other hand, it brought fashion to electronics as the remote was offered in colours of black, yellow, blue and red, which contained fruit and vegetable elements. It was innovative and looked different so it would stand out from other remotes in the market. | qmsum |
In the discussion of favourite animals, what was said about User Interface's choice?
Project Manager: Okay. Hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we're gonna be designing. Um I'm Mandy and I'm the Project Manager. And I know all your names again, Courtney, Fenella and Amber.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Alright. Okay,
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: so first let's go through this PowerPoint. I wonder what button I press?
User Interface: Just do it on the {gap} arrow.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah, or how about I just click? Okay, here is our agenda for this meeting. Um we're gonna start with our opening which was our introductions. {vocalsound} We're gonna get to know each other a little bit better. Um tool training, we're going to, I guess, figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles. Um we're gonna make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting. Okay, here is our project. We're gonna make a new remote control that's um original, trendy and also user-friendly. And how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um {disfmarker} We're gonna have {disfmarker} discuss the functional design first, {vocalsound} how is it gonna be used, what's the actual goal here, it has to operate T_V_, blah blah blah. And we're going to do individual work on that and then meet. Same thing with conceptual design. Just the basic overview of the project and then we're going to do individual work, meet. That's pretty much the the whole process for today. And then the detailed design, just more in-depth, get the actual schematics of the remote. Okay. Alright. First we're gonna start off by using our tools. And the whiteboard thing, do you guys wanna give that a try even though the ink wasn't working or do you wanna do it on here.
Industrial Designer: I think we should forgo the whiteboard since we can't actually see what we're writing.
Marketing: We could {disfmarker} Yeah, we could on here.
Project Manager: Alright, let's go forward then.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um right now so we're all gonna draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal. Even if you are not a good drawer like me.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright.
Industrial Designer: Artistic skills, nil.
User Interface: Fine.
Project Manager: Um.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh, thanks. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Bless you.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I draw like I'm in grade five.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh do I.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay, about one more minute. {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And who would like to start us off?
Marketing: I'll go.
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um this is my picture. I drew fish {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like fish, because uh, you know, their whole water-vascular system thing.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's pretty cool, and um they've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes, sometimes vicious but that's okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Only if they're piranhas.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, they they're easy, you know.
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Who wants to go next?
Industrial Designer: I'll go.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I drew a kitty. It's pretty much impossible to tell that's a cat, but I love cats.
Marketing: No I I see it.
Project Manager: No, it looks like a cat.
User Interface: No, I kne I knew.
Marketing: Yeah, it does look like a cat.
Industrial Designer: I love cats because they're independent, uh they pretty much know what they want, they get it, they move on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I love cats, too. I'm a cat person.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I'm allergic to cats.
Project Manager: Uh.
Industrial Designer: I'm allergic to cats, too. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh, okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you're around one {disfmarker}
User Interface: In my next life.
Project Manager: I had a roommate who was um allergic, but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it, you know,
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, if you're around them for a long period of time {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's weird. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I still can't sleep with them in my room.
Marketing: Oh, yeah, this summer I, oh I had to live with cats. It was crazy.
Project Manager: Okay, Fenella?
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um, I drew a badger. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Badger. Good choice.
Industrial Designer: Yay.
Marketing: Cool. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well, yeah.
Project Manager: Why a badger?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh I dunno, they're grumpy and nocturnal and {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Are you trying to suggest something?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, a little bit like the {disfmarker} Yes. Um. {vocalsound} And then, if you know Wind in the Willows {gap} badger.
Marketing: Oh, okay.
User Interface: Yeah and then uh I don't know if you know Brian {gap}. He's Liverpudlian writer.
Project Manager: Alright.
User Interface: Um {gap}, that kind of books. Badgers are cool in that one too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And I'm last.'Kay. Look at my sad sad giraffe.
Marketing: No, that's good.
Project Manager: No, no, no, it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur, but whatever. I don't know even much about giraffes, but I just love the way they look. They're just such odd creatures, you know. I I like that they're so unique and individual, I guess. I don't know much about their behaviour or anything, though. Only seen a couple in zoos.
Marketing: You don't really have to, I mean, if you like'em {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, but you can appreciate the way they look. Okay. Alright. Guess we're getting straight back into business here.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five Euro, and our profit aim is fifty million Euro. We're going to make this an international product marketed in the States, in Europe, in Asia. And um our production cost to make that profit is gonna be a max of twelve fifty Euro per remote. Okay. So we're gonna talk for a little while. Um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss. Expe our experiences with remote controls um, our first ideas about this new remote, anything that you can bring to the table for this project. So.
User Interface: Now?
Project Manager: Yeah. You wanna start us off? Anybody have anything to offer?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, we wanna make a multifunctional remote, right?
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: One remote for everything.
User Interface: And everything being {disfmarker} Wait, we have what, sound system, T_V_, D_V_D_, V_H_S_, uh TiVo?
Marketing: Right.
Industrial Designer: Um. I think they'll be phasing V_H_S_ out shortly.
Marketing: Yeah, TiVo.
Project Manager: TiVo.
User Interface: But it's still there, so
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: if po if we're gonna do it {disfmarker}
Marketing: It needs to be compatible'cause universal remote controls are never universal.
Project Manager: They're never universal. That's right. Esp e especially if you buy a a not big product, D_V_D_ player, say, usually it doesn't work if it's not one of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or if it's not like a Sony, if it's like a {disfmarker} I don't know.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Something from Sam's club.
Industrial Designer: So we'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: And what we need an insanely good instruction booklet, because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways.
Project Manager: Yeah.'Kay, and um another thing that I think is important is the d the design of the product, how it feels in your hand. If it's just flat and kind of boring th those don't {disfmarker} Nobody wants to buy those any more. They want the ergonomic ones.
Marketing: They want like the flashy lights.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh like this came from Las Vegas.
Project Manager: Ones that ones that look high-tech, too.
User Interface: But at the same time are simple.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Mm yeah.
Project Manager: So that people like my mother can use it.
Industrial Designer: What about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay. Anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just bad ones. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah {gap}. {vocalsound} That's true.
User Interface: Um.
Industrial Designer: What kinda battery would we want to use? Because battery changing is usually {disfmarker}
User Interface: D Double A_.
Marketing: Double A_.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Do some of them use triple A_s though?
Marketing: Yeah some use triple A_s.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Some but {disfmarker}
Marketing: So double or triple?
User Interface: Yeah, I guess then it's {disfmarker} If we need to do triple A_ we can, but most people usually have double A_s around.
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. But that has to do with the size of it too. Well, w as long as we know that issue is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Here we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, if we want it to be more thin, then we'd probably wanna go with a triple A_.
Project Manager: Triple A. But
Industrial Designer: Can you {gap} with a small lithium battery?
Project Manager: it's okay, we don't have to decide about it now, just as long as we remember battery type and size is important.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hey. Anything else? Alright. Moving along. Oh, we're closing the meeting. Next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes. Here's what we're going to do. Um the I_D_, which is who? Okay, you're going to think about the working design. What do you think that means? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And U_I_D_, the technical fun functions design,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do, the functionality of it, operating all those different things. Okay. And the marketing person, that's Courtney, is going to do the user requirements specification. I guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for. Right? I would think so. Okay.
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: And you're gonna get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while. Okay, so does anybody have anything they wanna say before we close the meeting? Okay. This meeting is officially over. | The animal User Interface drew was a badger. When Project Manager demanded the reason for this unusual choice, User Interface first answered that it was because badgers were grumpy and nocturnal. Industrial Designer joked about whether this suggested that User Interface had the same characteristics. User Interface then explained that his/her favourable impression of the badger came from books like Wind in the Willow, where badgers were cooler animals than what people generally imagine them to be. | qmsum |
Summarize the whole meeting.
Project Manager: Okay. Hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we're gonna be designing. Um I'm Mandy and I'm the Project Manager. And I know all your names again, Courtney, Fenella and Amber.
Marketing: Yep.
Project Manager: Alright. Okay,
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Project Manager: so first let's go through this PowerPoint. I wonder what button I press?
User Interface: Just do it on the {gap} arrow.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah, or how about I just click? Okay, here is our agenda for this meeting. Um we're gonna start with our opening which was our introductions. {vocalsound} We're gonna get to know each other a little bit better. Um tool training, we're going to, I guess, figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles. Um we're gonna make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting. Okay, here is our project. We're gonna make a new remote control that's um original, trendy and also user-friendly. And how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um {disfmarker} We're gonna have {disfmarker} discuss the functional design first, {vocalsound} how is it gonna be used, what's the actual goal here, it has to operate T_V_, blah blah blah. And we're going to do individual work on that and then meet. Same thing with conceptual design. Just the basic overview of the project and then we're going to do individual work, meet. That's pretty much the the whole process for today. And then the detailed design, just more in-depth, get the actual schematics of the remote. Okay. Alright. First we're gonna start off by using our tools. And the whiteboard thing, do you guys wanna give that a try even though the ink wasn't working or do you wanna do it on here.
Industrial Designer: I think we should forgo the whiteboard since we can't actually see what we're writing.
Marketing: We could {disfmarker} Yeah, we could on here.
Project Manager: Alright, let's go forward then.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um right now so we're all gonna draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal. Even if you are not a good drawer like me.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright.
Industrial Designer: Artistic skills, nil.
User Interface: Fine.
Project Manager: Um.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh, thanks. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Bless you.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I draw like I'm in grade five.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh do I.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay, about one more minute. {vocalsound} Okay.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And who would like to start us off?
Marketing: I'll go.
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um this is my picture. I drew fish {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like fish, because uh, you know, their whole water-vascular system thing.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's pretty cool, and um they've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes, sometimes vicious but that's okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Only if they're piranhas.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah, they they're easy, you know.
Project Manager: Alright.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: Who wants to go next?
Industrial Designer: I'll go.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I drew a kitty. It's pretty much impossible to tell that's a cat, but I love cats.
Marketing: No I I see it.
Project Manager: No, it looks like a cat.
User Interface: No, I kne I knew.
Marketing: Yeah, it does look like a cat.
Industrial Designer: I love cats because they're independent, uh they pretty much know what they want, they get it, they move on. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I love cats, too. I'm a cat person.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: I'm allergic to cats.
Project Manager: Uh.
Industrial Designer: I'm allergic to cats, too. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah.
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh, okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you're around one {disfmarker}
User Interface: In my next life.
Project Manager: I had a roommate who was um allergic, but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it, you know,
Marketing: Yeah, yeah, if you're around them for a long period of time {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's weird. Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I still can't sleep with them in my room.
Marketing: Oh, yeah, this summer I, oh I had to live with cats. It was crazy.
Project Manager: Okay, Fenella?
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Um, I drew a badger. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Badger. Good choice.
Industrial Designer: Yay.
Marketing: Cool. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well, yeah.
Project Manager: Why a badger?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh I dunno, they're grumpy and nocturnal and {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Are you trying to suggest something?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well, a little bit like the {disfmarker} Yes. Um. {vocalsound} And then, if you know Wind in the Willows {gap} badger.
Marketing: Oh, okay.
User Interface: Yeah and then uh I don't know if you know Brian {gap}. He's Liverpudlian writer.
Project Manager: Alright.
User Interface: Um {gap}, that kind of books. Badgers are cool in that one too. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And I'm last.'Kay. Look at my sad sad giraffe.
Marketing: No, that's good.
Project Manager: No, no, no, it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur, but whatever. I don't know even much about giraffes, but I just love the way they look. They're just such odd creatures, you know. I I like that they're so unique and individual, I guess. I don't know much about their behaviour or anything, though. Only seen a couple in zoos.
Marketing: You don't really have to, I mean, if you like'em {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah, but you can appreciate the way they look. Okay. Alright. Guess we're getting straight back into business here.
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five Euro, and our profit aim is fifty million Euro. We're going to make this an international product marketed in the States, in Europe, in Asia. And um our production cost to make that profit is gonna be a max of twelve fifty Euro per remote. Okay. So we're gonna talk for a little while. Um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss. Expe our experiences with remote controls um, our first ideas about this new remote, anything that you can bring to the table for this project. So.
User Interface: Now?
Project Manager: Yeah. You wanna start us off? Anybody have anything to offer?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, we wanna make a multifunctional remote, right?
Project Manager: Right.
Industrial Designer: One remote for everything.
User Interface: And everything being {disfmarker} Wait, we have what, sound system, T_V_, D_V_D_, V_H_S_, uh TiVo?
Marketing: Right.
Industrial Designer: Um. I think they'll be phasing V_H_S_ out shortly.
Marketing: Yeah, TiVo.
Project Manager: TiVo.
User Interface: But it's still there, so
Industrial Designer: Okay.
User Interface: if po if we're gonna do it {disfmarker}
Marketing: It needs to be compatible'cause universal remote controls are never universal.
Project Manager: They're never universal. That's right. Esp e especially if you buy a a not big product, D_V_D_ player, say, usually it doesn't work if it's not one of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or if it's not like a Sony, if it's like a {disfmarker} I don't know.
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Something from Sam's club.
Industrial Designer: So we'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: And what we need an insanely good instruction booklet, because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways.
Project Manager: Yeah.'Kay, and um another thing that I think is important is the d the design of the product, how it feels in your hand. If it's just flat and kind of boring th those don't {disfmarker} Nobody wants to buy those any more. They want the ergonomic ones.
Marketing: They want like the flashy lights.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Marketing: Oh like this came from Las Vegas.
Project Manager: Ones that ones that look high-tech, too.
User Interface: But at the same time are simple.
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Mm yeah.
Project Manager: So that people like my mother can use it.
Industrial Designer: What about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand?
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager:'Kay. Anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just bad ones. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah {gap}. {vocalsound} That's true.
User Interface: Um.
Industrial Designer: What kinda battery would we want to use? Because battery changing is usually {disfmarker}
User Interface: D Double A_.
Marketing: Double A_.
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Project Manager: Do some of them use triple A_s though?
Marketing: Yeah some use triple A_s.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: Some but {disfmarker}
Marketing: So double or triple?
User Interface: Yeah, I guess then it's {disfmarker} If we need to do triple A_ we can, but most people usually have double A_s around.
Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. But that has to do with the size of it too. Well, w as long as we know that issue is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: Right.
Project Manager: Here we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah, if we want it to be more thin, then we'd probably wanna go with a triple A_.
Project Manager: Triple A. But
Industrial Designer: Can you {gap} with a small lithium battery?
Project Manager: it's okay, we don't have to decide about it now, just as long as we remember battery type and size is important.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hey. Anything else? Alright. Moving along. Oh, we're closing the meeting. Next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes. Here's what we're going to do. Um the I_D_, which is who? Okay, you're going to think about the working design. What do you think that means? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay. And U_I_D_, the technical fun functions design,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do, the functionality of it, operating all those different things. Okay. And the marketing person, that's Courtney, is going to do the user requirements specification. I guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for. Right? I would think so. Okay.
Marketing: Right.
Project Manager: And you're gonna get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while. Okay, so does anybody have anything they wanna say before we close the meeting? Okay. This meeting is officially over. | This is the first of a series of meetings devoted to the design of a remote control, and it aims only at the proposition of general first ideas on the project. Project Manager started off the meeting by introducing the team and their plan for the project. The team got to know each other better by drawing out their favourite animals and justifying their choice. Project Manager then invited everyone to raise ideas about the remote. Their discussion included its multifunctional nature, ergonomic design and battery type, but there was no final decision on these matters. The work was split among the team members, as each took up the task of the working design, the technical functions design, or marketing. | qmsum |
Summarize the meeting
Professor D: OK. So, uh You can fill those out, uh {pause} after, actually, so So, I got, uh {pause} these results from, uh, Stephane. Also, um, I think that, uh {pause} um {pause} we might hear later today, about other results. I think s that, uh, there were some other very good results that we're gonna wanna compare to. But, {vocalsound} r our results from other {disfmarker} other places, yeah.
PhD A: I I'm sorry? I didn't
Professor D: Um, I got this from you
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: and then I sent a note to Sunil about the {disfmarker} cuz he has been running some other systems
PhD A: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: other than the {disfmarker} the ICSI OGI one.
PhD A: Oh yeah.
Professor D: So {pause} um, I wan wanna {disfmarker} wanna see what that is. But, uh, you know, so we'll see what it is comparatively later. But {pause} it looks like, um
PhD A: M yeah.
Professor D: You know most of the time, even {disfmarker} I mean even though it's true that the overall number for Danish {disfmarker} we didn't improve it If you look at it individually, what it really says is that there's, um, uh Looks like out of the six cases, between the different kinds of, uh, matching conditions {pause} out of the six cases, there's basically, um, a couple where it stays about the same, uh, three where it gets better, and one where it gets worse.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: Uh, go ahead.
PhD A: Y Actually, uh, um, for the Danish, there's still some kind of mystery because, um, um, when we use the straight features, we are not able to get these nice number with the ICSI OGI one, I mean. We don't have this ninety - three seventy - eight, we have eight
PhD E: Eighty - nine forty - four.
PhD A: yeah. Uh, so, uh, that's probably something wrong with the features that we get from OGI. Uh, and Sunil is working on {disfmarker} on trying to {disfmarker} to check everything.
Professor D: Oh, and {disfmarker} and we have a little time on that {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} actually so
PhD A: Hmm?
Professor D: We have a little bit of time on that, actually.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: We have a day or so, so When {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when do you folks leave?
PhD A: Uh, Sunday.
Professor D: Sunday? So So, uh Yeah, until Saturday midnight, or something, we have W we {disfmarker} we have time, yeah. Well, that would be good. That'd be good.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: Yeah. Uh, and, you know, i u when whenever anybody figures it out they should also, for sure, email Hynek because Hynek will be over there {vocalsound} telling people {vocalsound} what we did, so he should know.
PhD A: Mmm. Yeah.
Professor D: Good, OK. So, um So, we'll {disfmarker} we'll hold off on that a little bit. I mean, even with these results as they are, it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's really not that bad. But {disfmarker} but, uh, um And it looks like the overall result as they are now, even without, you know, any {disfmarker} any bugs being fixed is that, uh, on the {disfmarker} the other tasks, we had this average of, uh, forty uh {disfmarker} nine percent, or so, improvement. And here we have somewhat better than that than the Danish, and somewhat worse than that on the German, but I mean, it sounds like, uh, one way or another, the methods that we're doing can reduce the error rate from {disfmarker} from mel ceptrum {pause} down by, you know {pause} a fourth of them to, uh, a half of them. Somewhere in there, depending on the {pause} exact case. So So that's good. I mean, I think that, uh, one of the things that Hynek was talking about was understanding what was in the other really good proposals and {disfmarker} and trying to see if what should ultimately be proposed is some, uh, combination of things. Um, if, uh {disfmarker} Cuz there's things that they are doing {pause} there that we certainly are not doing. And there's things that we're doing that {pause} they're not doing. And {disfmarker} and they all seem like good things.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: So
PhD E: Mmm, yeah.
PhD C: How much {disfmarker} how much better was the best system than ours?
Professor D: So Well, we don't know yet.
PhD C: Mmm.
Professor D: Uh, I mean, first place, there's still this thing to {disfmarker} to work out, and second place {disfmarker} second thing is that the only results that we have so far from before were really development set results.
PhD C: Oh, OK.
Professor D: So, I think in this community that's of interest. It's not like everything is being pinned on the evaluation set. But, um, for the development set, our best result was a little bit short of fifty percent. And the best result of any system was about fifty - four, where these numbers are the, uh, relative, uh, reduction in, uh, word error rate.
PhD C: Oh, OK.
Professor D: And, um, the other systems were, uh, somewhat lower than that. There was actually {disfmarker} there was much less of a huge range than there was in Aurora one. In Aurora one there were {disfmarker} there were systems that ba basically didn't improve things.
PhD C: Hmm.
Professor D: And here the {disfmarker} the worst system {pause} still reduced the error rate by thirty - three percent, or something, in development set.
PhD C: Oh, wow.
Professor D: So {disfmarker} so, you know, sort of everybody is doing things between, well, roughly a third of the errors, and half the errors being eliminated, {vocalsound} uh, and varying on different test sets and so forth.
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: So I think Um {pause} It's probably a good time to look at what's really going on and seeing if there's a {disfmarker} there's a way to combine the best ideas while at the same time not blowing up the amount of, uh, resources used, cuz that's {disfmarker} that's critical for this {disfmarker} this test.
PhD C: Do we know anything about {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who's was it that had the lowest on the dev set?
Professor D: Um, uh, the, uh, the there were two systems that were put forth by a combination of {disfmarker} of, uh, French Telecom and Alcatel. And, um they {disfmarker} they differed in some respects, but they e em one was called the French Telecom Alcatel System the other was called the Alcatel French Telecom System, {vocalsound} uh, which is the biggest difference, I think. But {disfmarker} but there're {disfmarker} there're {disfmarker} there're some other differences, too. Uh, and {disfmarker} and, uh, they both did very well,
PhD C: Uh - huh.
Professor D: you know? So, {vocalsound} um, my impression is they also did very well on {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} the, uh, evaluation set, but, um, I {disfmarker} I we haven't seen {disfmarker} you've - you haven't seen any final results for that
PhD C: And they used {disfmarker} the main thing that {disfmarker} that they used was spectral subtraction?
Professor D: yeah.
PhD C: Or
Professor D: There is a couple pieces to it. There's a spectral subtraction style piece {disfmarker} it was basically, you know, Wiener filtering. And then {disfmarker} then there was some p some modification of the cepstral parameters, where they {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah, actually, something that's close to cepstral mean subtraction. But, uh, the way the mean is adapted {disfmarker} um, it's signal dependent. I'm {disfmarker} I'm, uh So, basically, the mean is adapted during speech and not during silence.
Professor D: Yeah.
PhD A: But it's very close to {disfmarker} to cepstral mean subtraction.
Professor D: But some people have done {vocalsound} {pause} exactly that sort of thing, of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} I mean it's not {disfmarker} To {disfmarker} to look in {pause} speech only, to try to m to measure these things during speech,
PhD A: Yeah, yeah.
Professor D: that's p that's not that uncommon. But i it it {disfmarker} so it looks like they did some {disfmarker} some, uh, reasonable things, uh, and they're not things that we did, precisely. We did unreasonable things, {vocalsound} which {disfmarker} because we like to try strange things, and {disfmarker} and, uh, and our things worked too.
PhD C: Hmm.
Professor D: And so, um, uh, it's possible that some combination of these different things that were done would be the best thing to do. But the only caveat to that is that everybody's being real conscious of how much memory and how much CPU they're using
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: because these, {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh, standards are supposed to go on cell phones with m moderate resources in both respects.
PhD C: Did anybody, uh, do anything with the models as a {disfmarker} an experiment? Or
Professor D: Uh, they didn't report it, if they did.
PhD C: N nobody reported it?
Professor D: Yeah. I think everybody was focused elsewhere. Um, now, one of the things that's nice about what we did is, we do have a {disfmarker} a, uh {disfmarker} a filtering, which leads to a {disfmarker} a, uh {disfmarker} a reduction in the bandwidth in the modulation spectrum, which allows us to downsample. So, uh, as a result of that we have a reduced, um, transmission rate for the bits.
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: That was misreported the first time out. It {disfmarker} it said the same amount because for convenience sake in the particular way that this is being tested, uh, they were repeating the packets. So it was {disfmarker} they were s they {disfmarker} they had twenty - four hundred bits per second, but they were literally creating forty - eight hundred bits per second, {vocalsound} um, even though y it was just repeated.
PhD C: Oh. Mm - hmm. Right.
Professor D: So, uh, in practice
PhD C: So you could've had a repeat count in there or something.
Professor D: Well, n I mean, this was just a ph phoney thing just to {disfmarker} to fit into the {disfmarker} the software that was testing the errors {disfmarker} channel errors and so on.
PhD C: Oh. Oh.
Professor D: So {disfmarker} so in reality, if you put this {disfmarker} this system in into, uh, the field, it would be twenty - four hundred bits per second, not forty - eight hundred. So, um, so that's a nice feature of what {disfmarker} what we did. Um, but, um, well, we still have to see how it all comes out.
PhD C: Hmm.
Professor D: Um, and then there's the whole standards process, which is another thing altogether.
PhD C: When is the development set {disfmarker} I mean, the, uh, uh, test set results due? Like the day before you leave or something?
Professor D: Uh, probably the day after they leave, but we'll have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we'll have to stop it the day before {comment} we leave.
PhD A: Yeah, yeah. So
PhD C: Huh.
Professor D: I think tha I think the {disfmarker} the meeting is on the thirteenth or something.
PhD A: Yeah, this Tuesday, yeah.
Professor D: And, uh, they, uh Right. And the {disfmarker} the, uh, results are due like the day before the meeting or something. So
PhD A: Yeah, probably, well
Professor D: I th I think {disfmarker} I I think they are,
PhD A: Yeah, well
Professor D: yeah. So {pause} {vocalsound} um, since we have a bit farther to travel than {vocalsound} some of the others, {vocalsound} uh, we'll have to get done a little quicker. But, um, I mean, it's just tracing down these bugs. I mean, just exactly this sort of thing of, you know, why {disfmarker} why these features seem to be behaving differently, uh, in California than in Oregon.
PhD C: Hmm.
Professor D: Might have something to do with electricity shortage. Uh, we didn't {disfmarker} we didn't have enough electrons here and Uh, but, um Uh, I think, you know, the main reason for having {disfmarker} I mean, it only takes w to run the {disfmarker} the two test sets in {disfmarker} just in computer time is just a day or so, right?
PhD A: Yeah,
Professor D: So
PhD A: it's very short interval.
Professor D: yeah. So, I think the who the whole reason for having as long as we have, which was {pause} like a week and a half, is {disfmarker} is because of bugs like that. So Huh So, we're gonna end up with these same kind of sheets that have the {pause} the percentages and so on just for the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah, so there are two more columns in the sheets,
Professor D: Oh, I guess it's the same sheets,
PhD A: two. Yeah, it's the same sheets,
Professor D: yeah, yeah {disfmarker}
PhD A: yeah.
Professor D: just with the missing columns filled in.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: Yeah. Well, that'll be good. So, I'll dis I'll disregard these numbers. That's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} that's good.
PhD A: So, Hynek will try to push for trying to combine, uh, different things? Or Hmm?
Professor D: Uh, well that's {pause} um yeah I mean, I think the question is" Is there {disfmarker} is there some advantage?" I mean, you could just take the best system and say that's the standard. But the thing is that if different systems are getting at good things, um, a again within the constraint of the resources, if there's something simple that you can do Now for instance, uh, it's, I think, very reasonable to have a standard for the terminal's side and then for the server's side say," Here's a number of things that could be done." So, um, everything that we did could probably just be added on to what Alcatel did, and i it'd probably work pretty well with them, too. So, um, uh, that's one {disfmarker} one aspect of it. And then on the terminal's side, I don't know how much, um, memory and {disfmarker} and CPU it takes, but it seems like the filtering {pause} Uh, I mean, the VAD stuff they both had, right? And, um, so {disfmarker} and they both had some kind of on - line normalization, right?
PhD A: Uh, yeah.
Professor D: Of sorts, yeah? So {disfmarker} so, it seems like the main different there is the {disfmarker} is the, uh, filtering. And the filtering {disfmarker} I think if you can {disfmarker} shouldn't take a lot of memory to do that Uh, and I also wouldn't think the CPU, uh, would be much either for that part. So, if you can {disfmarker} if you can add those in {pause} um {pause} then, uh, you can cut the data rate in half.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: So it seems like the right thing to do is to {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the terminal's side, take what they did, if it {disfmarker} if it does seem to generalize well to German and Danish, uh, take what they did add in a filter, and add in some stuff on the server's side and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and that's probably a reasonable standard. Um {pause} Uh
PhD A: They are working on this already? Because {disfmarker} yeah, Su - Sunil told me that he was trying already to put some kind of, uh, filtering in the {vocalsound} {pause} France Telecom.
Professor D: Yeah, so that's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} that's what That would be ideal {disfmarker} would be is that they could, you know, they could actually show that, in fact, a combination of some sort, {vocalsound} uh, would work even better than what {disfmarker} what any of the systems had. And, um, then it would {disfmarker} it would, uh {pause} be something to {disfmarker} to discuss in the meeting. But, uh, not clear what will go on. Um, I mean, on the one hand, um, sometimes people are just anxious to get a standard out there. I mean, you can always have another standard after that, but {vocalsound} this process has gone on for a while on {disfmarker} already and {disfmarker} and people might just wanna pick something and say," OK, this is it." And then, that's a standard. Uh, standards are always optional. It's just that, uh, if you disobey them, then you risk not being able to sell your product, or {pause} {vocalsound} Uh {pause} um And people often work on new standards while an old standard is in place and so on. So it's not final even if they declared a standard. The other hand, they might just say they just don't know enough yet to {disfmarker} to declare a standard. So you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you will be {disfmarker} you will become experts on this and know more {disfmarker} far more than me about the tha this particular standards process once you {disfmarker} you go to this meeting. So, be interested in hearing. So, uh, I'd be, uh, interested in hearing, uh, your thoughts now I mean you're almost done. I mean, you're done in the sense that, um, you may be able to get some new features from Sunil, and we'll re - run it. Uh, but other than that, you're {disfmarker} you're basically done, right? So, uh, I'm interested in hearing {disfmarker} hearing your thoughts about {pause} where you think we should go from this.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: I mean, we tried a lot of things in a hurry, and, uh, if we can back off from this now and sort of take our time with something, and not have doing things quickly be quite so much the constraint, what {disfmarker} what you think would be the best thing to do.
PhD A: Uh, well Hmm Well, first, uh, to really have a look at {disfmarker} at the speech {pause} {vocalsound} from these databases because, well, we tried several thing, but we did not really look {vocalsound} at what what's happening, and {vocalsound} where is the noise, and
Professor D: OK.
PhD A: Eh
Professor D: It's a novel idea. Look at the data. OK.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: Or more generally, I guess, what {disfmarker} what is causing the degradation.
PhD A: Yeah, yeah. Actually, there is one thing that {disfmarker} well {pause} Um, generally we {disfmarker} we think that {vocalsound} most of the errors are within phoneme classes, and so I think it could be interesting to {disfmarker} to see if it {disfmarker} I don't think it's still true when we add noise, and {vocalsound} so we have {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess the confusion ma the confusion matrices are very different when {disfmarker} when we have noise, and when it's clean speech. And probably, there is much more {pause} between classes errors for noisy speech.
Professor D: Mm - hmm.
PhD A: And {vocalsound} so, um Yeah, so perhaps we could have a {disfmarker} a large gain, eh, just by looking at improving the, uh, recognition, not of phonemes, but of phoneme classes, simply.
Professor D: Mm - hmm.
PhD A: And {vocalsound} which is a s a s a simpler problem, perhaps, but {disfmarker} which is perhaps important for noisy speech.
Professor D: The other thing that strikes me, just looking at these numbers is, just taking the best cases, I mean, some of these, of course, even with all of our {disfmarker} our wonderful processing, still are horrible kinds of numbers. But just take the best case, the well - matched {pause} uh, German case after {disfmarker} er well - matched Danish after we {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: the kind of numbers we're getting are about eight or nine {pause} uh {pause} p percent {pause} error {pause} per digit.
PhD A: Mm - hmm. Yeah.
Professor D: This is obviously not usable,
PhD A: No.
Professor D: right?
PhD A: Sure.
Professor D: I mean, if you have ten digits for a phone number {comment} I mean, every now and then you'll get it right. I mean, it's {disfmarker} it's, uh, {vocalsound} um So, I mean, the other thing is that, uh {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} a and {disfmarker} and also, um {pause} part of what's nice about this is that this is, uh, {vocalsound} um {pause} a realistic {disfmarker} almost realistic database. I mean, it's still not people who are really trying to accomplish something, but {disfmarker} but, uh, within the artificial setup, it isn't noise artificially added, you know, simulated, uh, additive noise.
PhD A: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: It's real noise condition. And, um, {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the training {disfmarker} the training, I guess, is always done on the close talking
PhD A: No, actually {disfmarker} actually the well - matched condition {pause} is {pause} still quite di still quite difficult.
Professor D: No?
PhD A: I mean, it's {disfmarker} they have all these data from the close mike and from the distant mike, {vocalsound} from different driving condition, open window, closed window,
Professor D: Yeah.
PhD A: and they take all of this and they take seventy percent, I think, for training and thirty percent for testing.
PhD E: Mm - hmm.
PhD A: So, training is done {vocalsound} on different conditions and different microphones, and testing also is done {pause} on different microphone and conditions. So, probably if we only take the close microphones, {vocalsound} I guess the results should be much much better than this.
Professor D: I see.
PhD A: Mmm.
Professor D: Oh, OK,
PhD A: Uh
Professor D: that explains it partially. Wha - what about i in {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah, so {disfmarker} there is this, the mismatched is, um {pause} the same kind of thing,
Professor D: go ahead.
PhD A: but {pause} the driving conditions, I mean the speed and the kind of road, is different for training and testing, is that right?
PhD E: Yeah.
PhD A: And the last condition is close microphone for training and distant for testing. Yeah.
Professor D: Uh, OK,
PhD A: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} s so {disfmarker}
Professor D: so I see. So, yeah, so the high {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} so the highly mismatched {vocalsound} case {pause} is in some sense a good model for what we've been, you know, typically talking about when we talk about additive noise in {disfmarker} And so {disfmarker} and i i k it does correspond to a realistic situation in the sense that, {vocalsound} um, people might really be trying to, uh, call out telephone numbers or some or something like that, in {disfmarker} in their cars
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: and they're trying to connect to something.
PhD A: Mmm.
Professor D: Um
PhD A: Actually, yeah, it's very close to clean speech training because, well, because the close microphone {vocalsound} and noisy speech testing,
Professor D: Yeah. Yeah.
PhD A: yeah. Mmm.
Professor D: Yeah. And the well - matched condition {pause} is what you might imagine that you might be able to approach, if you know that this is the application. You're gonna record a bunch on people in cars and so forth, and do these training. And then, uh, when y you sell it to somebody, they will be a different person with a different car, and so on. So it's {disfmarker} this is a an optim somewhat optimistic view on it, uh, so, you know, the real thing is somewhere in between the two.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: Uh, uh, but
PhD A: But the {disfmarker} I mean, the {pause} th th
Professor D: Even the optimistic one is
PhD A: it doesn't work.
Professor D: Yeah,
PhD A: It {disfmarker}
Professor D: right. Right, it doesn't work. So, in a way, that's, you know, that's sort of the dominant thing is that even, say on the development set stuff that we saw, the, uh, the numbers that, uh, that Alcatel was getting when choosing out the best single numbers, {vocalsound} it was just {disfmarker} you know, it wasn't good enough for {disfmarker} for {pause} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} for a real system.
PhD A: Mmm. Mm - hmm.
Professor D: You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you, {vocalsound} um So, uh, we still have stuff to do.
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: Uh, and, uh I don't know So, looking at the data, where, you know {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what's {disfmarker} what's th what's characteristic i e yeah, I think that's {disfmarker} that's a good thing. Does a any you have any thoughts about what else {vocalsound} y you're thinking that you didn't get to that you would like to do if you had more time? Uh
PhD E: Oh, f a lot of thing. Because we trying a lot of s {pause} thing, and we doesn't work, {vocalsound} we remove these. Maybe {vocalsound} we trying again with the articulatory feature. I don't know exactly because we tried {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} one experiment that doesn't work. Um, forgot it, something {pause} I don't know exactly
Professor D: Mm - hmm.
PhD E: because, tsk {comment} {vocalsound} maybe do better some step the general, {vocalsound} eh, diagram.
Professor D: Mm - hmm.
PhD E: I don't know exactly s to think what we can improve.
Professor D: Yeah, cuz a lot of time it's true, there were a lot of times when we've tried something and it didn't work right away, even though we had an intuition that there should be something there. And so then we would just stop it. Um And, uh, one of the things {disfmarker} I don't remember the details on, but I remember at some point, when you were working with a second stream, and you tried a low - pass filtering to cepstrum, in some case you got {disfmarker}
PhD E: MSG Yeah.
Professor D: Well, but it was {comment} an MSG - like thing, but it wasn't MSG, right? Uh, you {disfmarker} y I think in some case you got some little improvement, but it was, you know, sort of a small improvement, and it was a {disfmarker} a big added complication, so you dropped it. But, um, that was just sort of one try, right? You just took one filter, threw it there,
PhD A: Yeah,
Professor D: right? And it seems to me that, um, if that is an important idea, which, you know, might be, that one could work at it for a while, as you're saying.
PhD A: Hmm.
Professor D: And, uh Uh, and you had, you know, you had the multi - band things also, and, you know, there was issue of that.
PhD A: Yeah,
Professor D: Um, Barry's going to be, uh, continuing working on multi - band things as well.
PhD E: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: We were just talking about, um, {vocalsound} some, uh, some work that we're interested in. Kind of inspired by the stuff by Larry Saul with the, uh {pause} uh, learning articulatory feature in {disfmarker} I think, in the case of his paper {disfmarker} with sonorance based on, uh, multi - band information where you have a {disfmarker} a combination of gradient learning an and, uh, EM.
PhD A: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: Um, and {pause} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um, so, I think that, you know, this is a, uh {disfmarker} this is a neat data set. Um, and then, uh, as we mentioned before, we also have the {disfmarker} the new, uh, digit set coming up from recordings in this room. So, there's a lot of things to work with. Um and, uh what I like about it, in a way, is that, uh, the results are still so terrible. Uh {pause} {vocalsound} Uh {pause} {vocalsound} I mean, they're much better than they were, you know. We're talking about thirty to sixty percent, uh, error rate reduction. That's {disfmarker} that's really great stuff to {disfmarker} to do that in relatively short time. But even after that it's still, you know, so poor that {disfmarker} that, uh, no one could really use it. So, um I think that's great that {disfmarker} because {disfmarker} and y also because again, it's not something {disfmarker} sometimes we've gotten terrible results by taking some data, and artificially, you know, convolving it with some room response, or something {disfmarker} we take a very {disfmarker} Uh, at one point, uh, Brian and I went downstairs into the {disfmarker} the basement where it was {disfmarker} it was in a hallway where it was very reverberant and we {disfmarker} we made some recordings there. And then we {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we, uh {disfmarker} uh, made a simulation of the {disfmarker} of the room acoustics there and {disfmarker} and applied it to other things,
PhD A: Mm - hmm.
Professor D: and uh But it was all pretty artificial, and {disfmarker} and, you know, how often would you really try to have your most crucial conversations in this very reverberant hallway? Um {pause} So, uh {pause} This is what's nice about the Aurora data and the data here, is that {disfmarker} is that it's sort of a realistic room situation {pause} uh, acoustics {disfmarker} acoustic situation, both terms in noise and reflections, and so on and n n And, uh, uh, with something that's still relatively realistic, it's still very very hard to do very well. So Yeah.
PhD A: Yeah, so d well Actually, this is {disfmarker} tha that's why we {disfmarker} well, it's a different kind of data. We're not {disfmarker} we're not used to work with this kind of data. That's why we should have a loo more closer look at what's going on.
Professor D: Yeah.
PhD E: Mm - hmm.
PhD A: Um Yeah. So this would be the first thing, and then, of course, try to {disfmarker} well, {vocalsound} kind of debug what was wrong, eh, when we do Aurora test on the MSG {pause} particularly, and on the multi - band.
Professor D: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
PhD A: Uh
Professor D: Yeah. Yeah. No, I {disfmarker} I think there's lots of {disfmarker} lots of good things to do with this. So Um So let's {disfmarker} I guess {pause} You were gonna say something else? Oh, OK. What do you think?
PhD C: About
Professor D: Anything
PhD C: About other experiments? Uh, now, I'm interested in, um, uh {pause} looking at the experiments where you use, um {pause} uh, data from multiple languages to train the neural net. And I don't know how far, or if you guys even had a chance to try that, but {pause} that would be some it'd be interesting to me.
PhD A: Yeah, but
Professor D: S b
PhD A: Again, it's the kind of {disfmarker} of thing that, uh, we were thin thinking {disfmarker} thinking that it would work, but it didn't work. And, eh, so there is kind of {disfmarker} of {pause} not a bug, but something wrong in what we are doing, perhaps.
Professor D: Yeah.
PhD C: Right. Right.
PhD A: Uh, something wrong, perhaps in the {disfmarker} just in the {disfmarker} the fact that the labels are {disfmarker}
PhD C: Right.
PhD A: well
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
PhD A: What worked best is the hand - labeled data.
PhD C: Mm - hmm.
PhD A: Um Uh, so, yeah. I don't know if we can get some hand - labeled data from other languages.
PhD C: Yeah.
PhD A: It's not so easy to find.
PhD C: Right.
PhD A: But {pause} that would be something interesting t to {disfmarker} to see.
PhD C: Yeah, yeah.
Professor D: Yeah. Also, uh, {vocalsound} I mean, there was just the whole notion of having multiple nets that were trained on different data. So one form of different data was {disfmarker} is from different languages, but the other Well, i in fact, uh, m in those experiments it wasn't so much combining multiple nets, it was a single net that had different
PhD A: Yeah.
Professor D: So, first thing is would it be better if they were multiple nets, for some reason? Second thing is, never mind the different languages, just having acoustic conditions rather than training them all up in one, would it be helpful to have different ones? So, um That was a question that was kind of raised by Mike Shire's thesis, and on {disfmarker} in that case in terms of reverberation. Right? That {disfmarker} that sometimes it might be better to do that. But, um, {vocalsound} I don't think we know for sure. So, um Right. So, next week, we, uh, won't meet because you'll be in Europe. Whe - when are you two getting back?
PhD E: Um, I'm
PhD A: You on Friday or S on Saturday or {pause}?
PhD E: Sunday
PhD A: S oh yeah, Sunday, yeah.
PhD E: because it's {disfmarker} it's less expensive, the price {disfmarker} the price the ticket.
PhD C:
Professor D: Yeah, that's right. You've gotta S have a Saturday overnight, right?
PhD A: I'll be back on Tuesday.
Professor D: Tuesday.
PhD C: Where {disfmarker} where's the meeting?
Professor D: Uh, Amsterdam, I think, yeah?
PhD A: Yeah, Amsterdam.
PhD C: Uh - huh.
Professor D: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Um {pause} So, we'll skip next week, and we'll meet two weeks from now. And, uh, I guess the main topic will be, uh, you telling us what happened.
PhD A: Yeah.
PhD E: Yeah.
Professor D: Uh, so Yeah, well, if we don't have an anything else to discuss, we should, uh, turn off the machine and then say the real nasty things.
PhD C: Should we do digits first?
PhD A: Yeah.
Grad B: Oh, yeah, digits.
Professor D: Oh yeah, digits! Yeah. Good point. Yeah, good thinking. Why don't you go ahead.
PhD C: OK. OK. | The project was finally coming to a conclusion and the team was getting ready to share their results. They achieved an error rate reduction for the task, but the error rate in itself was still significant. The team also had to think about how they could make their model efficient for it to be deployed as they continue with future research. They discussed some new directions and were reminded that while the initial phase was over, much work lied ahead of them. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about market potentials for the new remote controls.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} minutes from the last meeting which were essentially that we uh had decided on roles for each of you, however, um there are some changes that I've got from on high
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um are a bit uh {disfmarker} well w what I didn't actually realise it was that the uh {vocalsound} this is for a specific television.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So the all in one idea goes out the window. And {vocalsound} they require that the uh
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: actually I'll get to that at the end {gap} point number four, um we'll get what you've got and then we can see what we can adapt from it. So um, presentations, were you {disfmarker} anybody got, raring to go?
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Raring to go? Okay. Good stuff. Mm.
Marketing: Um. So how {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I need to plug you in. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S {gap}
Project Manager: Just about.
User Interface: Wow. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's a inspired design.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sh do you want me to hold it?
Project Manager: Uh there we go, just screw'em on in. Gonna have to swap them round so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So, after that?
Project Manager: now, it was function F_ eight.
Marketing: F_ eight. {vocalsound} f oh sorry F_ eight.
Project Manager: That's the wee blue one. Blue one F_ eight.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Should do it, good one.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, me again, Rajan the Marketing Expert. Uh, as we have decided in the last meeting that I have to find out, sorry, yeah sure.
Project Manager: Hold on, sorry. {gap} and if you just click that it'll go ahead, one at a time.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Uh actually, sorry I have to see the other {gap}, sorry.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry, uh.
Marketing: Yeah, thank you.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, yes, I have to look at the uh market potential for this product, uh, like consumer likings and everything, what is the potential for this product and are we able to achieve our a net profit or our aims or not? Then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: P press F_ five to start it first.
Marketing: Sorry. Okay. Yeah, I can, okay.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Jesus.
Marketing: Uh then uh the methodology I adopted to find out all this was market survey. A a detailed market survey on consumers was done to find out their likings and dislikings, what they prefer what they not prefer, w what problems they do encounter in all this type of things. And what we got was, we found that {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} uh, what they th what problems they are having with different uh remote controls available in the market. Seventy five percent of users they do find it that the remote controls available in the market are ugly. They are not so good looking. So, we have to put stress on this, uh we have to take care of this fact also like our design, uh should be appropriate, should be good looking for the consumers. And yes that's wi uh this will definitely, this can definitely put uh uh enhance our sales. Uh and even uh the good thing about this is that eighty percent of users they are willing to pay high uh pay more for this uh good looking remote controls also. So even if the available market goes for the available {disfmarker} uh even if the market goes for the available remote control is less even then we can sell it at twenty five Euros, which maybe which may seem quite high but if our looks are are if the re remote control we design have a good better uh better look uh designs, then we can hope that consumers will prefer these g remote controls.
Project Manager: Excellent.
Marketing: Then {disfmarker} {gap} And the second thing, some some companies they think that they should have more and more functions of the users uh or in their remote controls, but rather than those having more functions in the remote controls we should emphasise what actually consumer want, what they operate, rather than making it too complicated. Because mostly it has been found that fifty percent of the users they use only ten percent of the buttons, so there is no point of having ninety percent buttons making the remote controls too bulky, too complicated too expensive a because I think I believe that technology is useful only if uh the consumers they want to use it. Otherwise there is no point of having all this type of things. So this will not only reduce the cost of our remote controls but it will increase our profit also. So we have to take care of this fact also. Then. Uh it was function I want to go to.
Project Manager: Oh you wanna go back? Just escape.
Marketing: Uh, escape, okay thank you. Then if we look at this slide,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: uh these are in your shared documents, you can see,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: like {disfmarker} Uh, sorry.
User Interface: So, sorry {disfmarker} I was just gonna say, what was the question for this? Or is {disfmarker} are you coming on to that?
Marketing: Ah t look all the market potential, what uh how we should design consu our remote controls, what they should be there so as to en enhance our profit, enhance our sales.
User Interface: Okay. So these percentages are are what?
Marketing: Yeah, these are different age group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.
Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.
Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}
Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm, mm.
Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen to twe
Marketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all about
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh market potential by me.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen? Yeah please.
User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.
Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.
Marketing: Sorry.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fun and games.
Marketing: Sorry.
Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.
Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.
Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.
User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.
Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.
User Interface: Um, yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eight?
Marketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.
Project Manager: Function F_ eight.
User Interface: Oh right.
Marketing: Mm s.
User Interface: Okay, cool.
Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.
Project Manager: There you go.
User Interface: Okay. Cool.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh F_ five.
User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do I?
Marketing: Escape.
Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.
User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, User Interface Designer sorry, uh I'm concerned with um w what effect the apparatus should have on the user and um I'm I'm also {disfmarker} I want to point out that our motto, put the fashion in electronics,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so obviously we as a company we want to make our products trendy and fashionable, it's a big concern of ours. Okay, and how do I press n just the next button?
Project Manager: Uh just a left uh
User Interface: The arrow? Okay.
Project Manager: left mouse button.
User Interface: So um I looked at existing designs and also um the information that Raj gave us was very useful about what people like, what people dislike. Um and what people {disfmarker} fashionable, because we said people between twenty five and thirty five were the main um buyers of of our T_V_ I think.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay.
User Interface: So um what they like and what they find fashionable.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And ergonomics, we said um, I don't know I haven't actually been able to do any of this myself,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but um maybe that comes up, I don't know.
Project Manager: That can come under Arlo as well.
User Interface: And the findings, well the basic {disfmarker} that was the basic function to send messages to the television set.
Project Manager: Uh.
User Interface: That's what people want to do. Um, so they need to be included, um, but I've got some pictures here of some leading ones. I don't know how to get to them,
Project Manager: Uh if you if you escape then you can see your bar.
User Interface: {vocalsound} do I press F_ five is it? {gap} escape? Oh okay, cool. I haven't got my glasses on so I hope it's this one.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh okay.
User Interface: These are two leading um remote controls at the moment.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: You know they're grey, they've I mean this one's got loads of buttons, it's hard to tell from here what they actually do,
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and they don't look very exciting at all. Um, personally I prefer this one just because it's looks easier use, it's a bit more sleek with more of this silver stuff,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: um, but there you go, that's what we're up against,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and I think we can do much better than that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We hope so.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Of course. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um hang on. F_ five,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: okay, sorry. Personal preferences. Um, well I think we need to l I think the ergonomics is quite um important, um
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah, particularly if we've uh there was a bit in Raj's about R_S_I_ and things as well.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh-huh. And um I thought not too edgy and like a box, more kind of hand-held more um {vocalsound} not as uh computery and
Project Manager: Organic {vocalsound}.
User Interface: or organic, yeah, more organic shape I think. {vocalsound} Um simple designs, like the last one we just saw, not too many buttons and as Raj pointed out, only ten percent {disfmarker} fifty percent of people only use ten percent of the buttons,
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so I think what we can miss out on the buttons we can make up for in design and and how nice it looks.
Project Manager: Sales, {gap}. Okay.
User Interface: Um, hand-held and portable I think is portamint is important because T_F_T_ have just um released um I think is it a a remote control for presentations or uh and a big seven inch big screen, anyway, so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah it's like a, yeah. {vocalsound} It's {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, no seven inches isn't that big but um anyway um so hand-held and portable and uh m I thought about other functions for T_V_ but as you pointed out people don't actually want that,
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And also the company want to keep it stuck to the T_V_ for uh to keep down the production time.
User Interface: so maybe we forget about that. It's for one T_V_ oh right okay, sure. And so the last thing I thought w which I quickly mentioned in the other one was maybe a bit of a gimmick to set us apart from other people, like glow-in-the-dark
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Exactly. Yeah.
User Interface: um which {vocalsound} does already e exist but it's not very widely used I don't think.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Easy finder with the a whistle function or something,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: or rechargeable station because it's a pain when you run out of batteries.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And I think that, yep, that's it.
Project Manager: That's cool.
Industrial Designer: So uh, I noticed your talk about speech recognition and whistling,
User Interface: Okay? Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and uh I was just curious to know, have we done any research into how many people can whistle? Um, or if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: is that a function we want in the remote?
Project Manager: Um, do you have trouble whistling?
User Interface: Um, I haven't been able to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't, but I I know a lot of people do right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Really?
Industrial Designer: Yeah it just
Project Manager: Ooh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I mean it has to be a certain kind of whistle too, right?
Project Manager: Yeah, I suppose that's true.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, yeah
Project Manager: Well I suppo uh you could y you could have the
User Interface: or some sort of voice {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you could have the basically um instead of a whistle if it's got the voice recognition you could have it just, you know, where are you? {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's costly though.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um a much easier thing is just any loud noise like clapping um, shouting, you know,
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: uh and then, what would the response be? It beeps back at you or something?
Project Manager: Sounds good.
User Interface: Yeah, something.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, uh let me set this up. So I plug it in, press F_ five? Function F_ five?
Project Manager: Function F_ eight for the um the uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or function F_ eight? Okay.
User Interface: Oh you need to twiddle the thingamibobsy thing.
Industrial Designer: Okay. I think it's {vocalsound} uh just to lock it in. It's got it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} So as the Industrial Designer my job is to take an input from you guys,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: um so it's good you went first,
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: and I jotted down some notes as to what are the b needs and uh what kind of novel features we can add to differentiate our product from the others.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Let's remember that.
Industrial Designer: Um so Raj told us that uh consumers are willing to spend more for fancy products, and um he also mentioned that uh the current products don't always match users'operating behaviour. Um, a lot of the buttons aren't used, and uh {vocalsound} he mentioned that they're not fun to use. And uh a novel feature which uh we just brought up was this this automatic speech recognition feature or noise detection feature for when you lose the remote,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: there could be a little microphone on it, and any noise over a certain threshold um it'll pick up as a a distress signal um from you and it'll beep back and say you know oh here I am or something of this sort.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. But sure surely that would have to be um sort of specific rather than above a threshold'cause if you had a loud movie on you're likely to get it beeping back at you.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, yeah, that's true.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well maybe you could have a um hmm {vocalsound} tha that would be a consideration to take into account yes. Um.
Project Manager: Sorry I didn't mean to derail you there. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah well tha that's uh for later down the road um, and then as for the user interface it should be trendy, um {vocalsound} and not computery,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: right, so more low tech and not too many buttons.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So I took these all into consideration and also I have some limitations from the boss.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right um, and practical limitations which I kinda threw out the window.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so I did a little research and unfortunately all I had to work on was our uh our corporate archives of the great products we've made before,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which include, you know, um space craft, coffee makers, and bullet trains {disfmarker} Or uh or a high speed train.
Project Manager: Ah is that what that is? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right and having personally worked with all these products uh I have a great deal of experience with uh with industrial design of these.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. So,
User Interface: Yeah sure.
Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one button
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is it?
Industrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it was fifty million Euros?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them? Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.
Marketing: Fifty million was uh prof
Project Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}
Marketing: As a profit.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.
Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably just be uh your regular batteries {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: um, we don't wanna have it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Would it be possible to have the rechargeable idea? Is that is that gonna mark up a lot?
Industrial Designer: Uh.
User Interface: Or a little base station or something, {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, we could do that too. Um, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} That might cost more though,'cause obviously with batteries we don't need to provide, well we provide the first batteries, but it's more, it's {disfmarker} that's cheaper to just provide batteries.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: I mean if you think about these base stations now it's essentially just a a lead with a sort of self connecting brake in it,
User Interface: A battery in it, kinda.
Project Manager: so I don't think it'd up up the price that much.
Industrial Designer: Right, so so {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: the unirs the user interface
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: uh the canonical user interface for these would be just a bunch of buttons, but since we're a cutting edge company, we uh of course will have alternatives like uh speech recognition, whistling recognition and rocket power
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: behind our product.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um and lastly the transmission interface is uh, just some engineering thing you don't have to worry about.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um so here's you know, a great schematic that my uh apprentice designer gave me.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um as you can see the the remote control have parts and those parts look like that and um {vocalsound} you know it's got a little operating procedure that looks something like that. {vocalsound} And I suppose you all know how it works because we've all used it and we wouldn't be in a company designing remote controls if we didn't know what they were so {disfmarker} uh personal preferences, I think uh programmable options which um just require a small amount of memory, uh non volatile memory, just um so the user can put in their favourite channels and maybe their preferred volume settings so that when they turn it on it's not blasting.
User Interface: Mm. Mm that's a good idea actually I like the programmable options.
Marketing: Yeah, me too.
Industrial Designer: Oh okay. And the uh, the bells and whistles that we mentioned you know, they take more budgeting, um more technical uh expenditure of effort
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it's also much more likely to not work if if we add these bells and whistles.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's all I got.
Project Manager:'Kay, thank you very much, um I'll take that back.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ooh that's tight.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right, also so um a notice I got not very long before the meeting, so didn't manage to forward it on to you, it is {disfmarker} let's see, I'll find it myself, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Ta
Industrial Designer: Okay, I don't think we need to screw it in.
Project Manager: nah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just push it.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We had that um to dis-include teletext um because it's become outdated, and everybody uses the internet anyway. Um, {vocalsound} dunno what Oracle would have to say with that but never mind.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um it's only for the television, which I'm presuming means it's for a specific television,
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: and um instead of colours and sorta colour options, they want corporate colour and slogan somehow implemented in the new design.
User Interface: Corporate colour.
Project Manager: Yellow.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yellow. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I presume. Um, everything, all their sort of uh you know the uh corporate website and everything's yellow.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And the logo uh the sort of slogan we put the fa fashion in electronics uh {disfmarker} I don't know exactly how sort of incorpor I mean, I guess if you're going for a sort of globular shape you could kind of have it working its way round it or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, where am I? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, so, we have to decide on which functions we're going to actually have.
User Interface:'Kay.
Project Manager: Uh, {vocalsound} now, we had as listed options we had
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: speech recognition potentially, flat screen interface, L_C_D_ interface um we also want to limit the number of buttons so we'll pretty much take that one as read.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: We'll use the the basic functions for a television. No teletext. Um {vocalsound} okay hold on.
User Interface: Although the the danger with that is, it could look a bit cheap.
Project Manager: Not enough buttons you mean?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So sorta strike a balance between a a few and a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or it looks like we're just cutting on the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm. On the number of buttons, kind of functions and stuff.
Project Manager: I do however have this from over my head, that they don't want teletext on it.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, okay. Okay, cool.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh maybe Raj you could find out what people would think about that, or maybe they'll send
Marketing: About cost.
Project Manager: some information about that, about um what people, whether people would require um teletext in a remote {disfmarker} teletext option in a remote control.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay um {gap}. So uh I take it your position Arlo is that the bells and whistles we've gotta come up with the {disfmarker} a gimmick but not too complicated a gimmick.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Um so I mean a a the sort of inkling I'm getting from little bits of um web chatter that I'm getting sent is that they're quite interested in a T_F_T_ display, interactive display. However that does sound a bit like the more complicated design that rav uh sorry Raj um {vocalsound} said people didn't like. Although I guess if there's a sort of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Project Manager: If you think about standard interfaces that people use already, sort of Windows-style drop down menus or whatever,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: I think maybe that's a bit, going a bit far
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but you know like in a basic sense that you could have your basic selection of buttons, and if you hit a sort of menu at the top you have um {vocalsound} it goes to a different selection of buttons, so it sorta keeps it simple.
User Interface: Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: Um glow in the dark, is that sort of with a light inside it or is it sort of glow in the dark material?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh.
User Interface: Glow in the dark material I was thinking.
Project Manager: Okay. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, so I I guess that would be cheaper than a light I think.
Marketing: Uh may I say something about {gap}?
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Uh actually I think it's really really very important point uh as if we look at the market because people mor fifty percent people they find that the remote controls are often lost somewhere in the remote, in the room. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Often lost s was that,
Marketing: yeah are lost
Project Manager: Lost, yeah.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: and means they forget where they have kept the remote control last time. But if we add speech recognition as well as glow in the dark then both these factors will help their locating the remote control,
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: like if they come and speak something at the remote control uh replies to something something and it glows in the dark. Both these factors uh both these points will help them to locate the where they have kept this remote control,
Project Manager: That's cool.
User Interface: Mm-hmm,
Marketing: and this will definitely enhance our uh market sales,
Project Manager: That's cool.
User Interface: mm-hmm.
Marketing: so we should take it into consideration also.
Project Manager: Okay, cool.
Industrial Designer: Well hmm.
Project Manager: Um speech recognition I take it {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't, I've {disfmarker} I know of no products um that use speech recognition well.
Industrial Designer: They're act there there was a remote control that came out two years ago that had a {disfmarker} some basic speech recognition on it. You could programme it with your channels and then you say you know like uh B_B_C_ one and it goes to that channel.
Project Manager: Really?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it didn't work very well though because of this noise interference problem. They mentioned you know if the television says you are listening to B_B_C_ one {gap}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah, or a yeah an advert an advert for B_B_C_ two on B_B_C_ one'll switch the channel for you kinda thing.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Right, right, and so there was a lot of this, you'd be watching the T_V_ and then all of a sudden it'd it'd pick up a noise and turn it off or you know or turn the volume off or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}
User Interface:'Kay.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} something
Project Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you find if y
Industrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.
Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speaker
Project Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.
Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}
User Interface: That comes with our remote control.
Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.
Industrial Designer: Right, right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to find it again. If you do have this sorta speech interface to it, you don't even need to find it. You just say you know, um whatever you whatever you want the remote for, you know to change the channel or to uh turn the T_V_ on and off, you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it's within you know, within hearing range. And uh you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you've no idea where it is and it would still do its job.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: That could also be built into the T_V_ though, which might make our remote control a bit obsolete.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well, hopefully we're uh we're ahead of the curve. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It might do us out of a job.
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay. {vocalsound} I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing. Um so I think rather than {disfmarker} and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that,
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: so I th
User Interface: And the expense.
Project Manager: yeah and expense and the time.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So I think if we're going to go {disfmarker} well I mean like the thing about the {disfmarker} there's the problem with the T_F_T_ or the L_C_D_ kind of thing is if you're also wanting the the kind of uh organic globby sort of feeling to it then you might have trouble incorporating the screen.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Um, but I guess not I thin we'll just we'll just pretend that's not a problem. Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} and how are you about the glow in the dark material? Is that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um.
User Interface: Maybe not even all of it'cause we said um colours and fashion w were important so maybe um just like a little l line that's kind of around the outside and then you can make the rest a different colour.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Contrast contra well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, no th the material's cheap but it's just uh the the glow in the dark material needs some light to charge it you know, and then uh if you're, if you're sitting in the dark for too long it uh it won't glow any more.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So if it's dow it's d uh yeah. Or if it's down under the couch cushions
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: um which is where I usually find mine.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay, well we can use {disfmarker} we can still use the glow in the dark as a gimmick essentially,
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: um if we're gonna have to {disfmarker}
User Interface:'cause what I thought, main {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're gonna have the logo on as well, bright yellow logo in our our um slogan.
User Interface: Slogan, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh then you know they're gonna be fairly brightly coloured anyway, and we can have sort of a a a trimming as well, of the glow in the dark material, just as gimmickyness.
User Interface: Right. Mm-hmm.'Cause yeah, that w more than finding it, that was more like you know if you're watching a film in the dark, you can um still see the remote control.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Alright, so n sorta if if if we're gon if we're gonna go with the idea of um {vocalsound} uh of feedback, sort of remote finder, then that kinda stuffs that one out then.
User Interface: That was more of a a gimmick.
Project Manager: Do you think?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Uh it makes it fairly unnecessary then.
User Interface: Yeah, unnecessary. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Um, okay so scratch that. Uh so we've got do we want to go with the T_F_T_ idea or the {disfmarker} is that far too expensive?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah we're getting a lot of features now, I I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well I mean I think I think the sort of find the finder things I mean it's uh I could probably write the circuit diagram for that myself.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, I think a consideration too is that these uh remotes get abused a lot, you know they get thrown around,
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: there's a good chance the the T_F_T_ screen would break or uh get damaged.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: They're pretty fragile.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So is that one of our definite requirements that they wa that it needs a T_F_T_ screen?
Project Manager: Um no, I mean {gap} that was going on ravs uh Raj's sort of um marketing research I guess. Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} So we'll stick with sort of programmability um for the buttons that we do have. Um. {gap} So that's sort of included in your sub-module kind of stuff, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} you were finding out about teletext.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: If you could find out that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Totally, it takes cheap speech recognition, she {disfmarker} they wi
Project Manager: Um I think we're gonna scratch the speech recognition as a bit of a
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: um expensive,
User Interface: Yeah you think so?
Industrial Designer: Oh no it's it's much cheaper than the T_F_T_, it's just a microphone and some some integrated circuits.
Project Manager: no? Oh right, okay.
Industrial Designer: And it'd it'd be a small vocabulary speech recognition system,
Project Manager: Is it not the circuits that cost {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh right, okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh well that kind of takes back the R_F_ {vocalsound} the R_F_ remote sort of idea as well.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um. {vocalsound} Five minutes. Okay. Decisions. Uh, votes, let's vote. Who wants T_F_T_?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No-one does.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Excellent, so we'll go with speech recognition, yeah?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, that's cool.
Project Manager: Um, speech recognition, limited buttons, organic design. And what else was I thinking of that I haven't written down and therefore fallen out my head,
User Interface: Um
Project Manager: programmability.
Marketing: Glow in dark.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: if it's not too expensive s I think it's a good gimmick.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh o okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}
Project Manager: And also, integrating the, remember to integrate the logo and the s slogan. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay, so. Um can you put all these reports in the project documents folder if they're not already in there as well. So, it just helps me summarize them.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Here? Sure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And um I'll put any {disfmarker} {gap} I'm I'm putting anything I do in there anyway, so uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And where is it sorry?
Project Manager: Uh pro uh project documents.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it should be when you save
Project Manager: On A_M_I_ scenario controller.
Industrial Designer: on your desktop, so it goes save as, or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh {gap}.
Marketing: Uh it is in shared documents?
Industrial Designer: And then uh hit that little folder up thing again.
Project Manager: Where am I?
Marketing: Projoct uh projector.
Industrial Designer: Again.
Project Manager: Project documents, yeah, it's on your desktop as well.
Industrial Designer: All the way to the top, yeah that's up to desktop. Right and then project documents.
User Interface: Okay, cool.
Marketing: Hmm. It is not giving anything.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Shared documents.
Project Manager: And I will tr {gap} getting strings of um information, I'll try and forward any specific to anybody in particular, as soon as I get them now, rather than {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: I was about to sort of tell you about the changes before the meeting, and then the meeting turned up, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Did you get my email? Okay.
Project Manager: I did {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just making sure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} What I thought as well about the material is um maybe not this kind of material, but maybe more like um this kind of rubbery material, it's a bit more bouncy, like you said they get chucked around a lot. Um, a bit more {vocalsound} durable and that can also be ergonomic
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: and it kind of feels a bit different from all the other remote controls.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: The rubber rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: More sort of um flesh-like than plasticky sort of.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Wow.
Marketing: Um but we have to take care like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But we have to take care of our children also if they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} means if children catch hold of your or if they chew it it shouldn't be too harmful. So, whatever material we use it should be {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Oh no, ethics, {vocalsound} that's gonna cost us money. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} we have to safety point of view also, we have to take care.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, safety.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Oh I think wi with the more organic shape of it it won't be as {disfmarker} it won't as have many sharp corners as that, so that's something good, um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I dunno, I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could go comp yeah.
Project Manager: It sme {vocalsound} smells good for children. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We could go completely out of the box and make the thing a big red ball foam ball.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it's got the thing on the inside.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And there's no buttons at all, it's always on, and just yell at it, and it works.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That sounds,
User Interface: That's a good idea.
Industrial Designer: And then ch children will love it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah it's gonna have to be it's gonna be have a big yellow foam ball, yeah, sorry.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Interesting.
Industrial Designer: Oh yellow, yellow ball. Right.
User Interface: Yeah, d with the colour, um does it have to be all yellow, do you know?
Project Manager: Please God no. Um. Well, I wouldn't th I mean,
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: my reaction to an all-yellow remote control wouldn't be anything other than horror, so I think just having it
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Small logo with the like a small yellow strip or y yellow {gap} with the logo in it.
Project Manager: surrounding the logo.
User Interface: Having a little bit. Okay cool. Mm mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, okay.
Project Manager: And I'll see if I can argue with boss about putting the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Cool.
Project Manager: what was it? We put {vocalsound} we put fashion into {disfmarker} Whoops, it's not working. Can't believe I've forgotten it {gap}. We put the fashion in electronics. {vocalsound} I bet that'll catch on well.
User Interface: Oh yeah, that's a good one that. Yeah so.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, any last
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Twelve thirty.
Project Manager: worries, queries? Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S s {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: I know what you're thinking.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay then, lunchtime, yay.
Marketing: That's good.
Project Manager: Okay, that felt a bit more like a {disfmarker} something with order and and reason to it than the last one.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is quite fun actually.
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Has anybo oh.
Project Manager: I really don't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Has anybody pressed okay, it vibrates. It's pretty cool.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Check here.
Project Manager: Wow you've {gap} your first page.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I've been using up the pages.
Project Manager: I was just writing really big. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, got small writing. I don't wanna waste it.
Project Manager: I've finished the meeting now.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Another questionnaire.
Project Manager: Oh, everybody needs k questionnaire.
Marketing: {vocalsound} | According to Marketing, seventy-five percent of the users found the remote controls which were available now in the market were ugly. Eighty percent of the users reported having the willingness to pay high for good-looking remote controls. Thirty-four percent of the consumers considered their remote controls were too difficult to operate. What's more, some companies believed that they shall have more functions in their remote controls. However, rather than having more functions and making it complicated, they shall emphasize what actually customers wanted and what they operated. All of these market potentials were required to be taken into consideration in order to enhance profits and sales. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about the functions that the new remote controls would have.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} minutes from the last meeting which were essentially that we uh had decided on roles for each of you, however, um there are some changes that I've got from on high
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um are a bit uh {disfmarker} well w what I didn't actually realise it was that the uh {vocalsound} this is for a specific television.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So the all in one idea goes out the window. And {vocalsound} they require that the uh
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: actually I'll get to that at the end {gap} point number four, um we'll get what you've got and then we can see what we can adapt from it. So um, presentations, were you {disfmarker} anybody got, raring to go?
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Raring to go? Okay. Good stuff. Mm.
Marketing: Um. So how {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I need to plug you in. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S {gap}
Project Manager: Just about.
User Interface: Wow. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's a inspired design.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sh do you want me to hold it?
Project Manager: Uh there we go, just screw'em on in. Gonna have to swap them round so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So, after that?
Project Manager: now, it was function F_ eight.
Marketing: F_ eight. {vocalsound} f oh sorry F_ eight.
Project Manager: That's the wee blue one. Blue one F_ eight.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Should do it, good one.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, me again, Rajan the Marketing Expert. Uh, as we have decided in the last meeting that I have to find out, sorry, yeah sure.
Project Manager: Hold on, sorry. {gap} and if you just click that it'll go ahead, one at a time.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Uh actually, sorry I have to see the other {gap}, sorry.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry, uh.
Marketing: Yeah, thank you.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, yes, I have to look at the uh market potential for this product, uh, like consumer likings and everything, what is the potential for this product and are we able to achieve our a net profit or our aims or not? Then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: P press F_ five to start it first.
Marketing: Sorry. Okay. Yeah, I can, okay.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Jesus.
Marketing: Uh then uh the methodology I adopted to find out all this was market survey. A a detailed market survey on consumers was done to find out their likings and dislikings, what they prefer what they not prefer, w what problems they do encounter in all this type of things. And what we got was, we found that {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} uh, what they th what problems they are having with different uh remote controls available in the market. Seventy five percent of users they do find it that the remote controls available in the market are ugly. They are not so good looking. So, we have to put stress on this, uh we have to take care of this fact also like our design, uh should be appropriate, should be good looking for the consumers. And yes that's wi uh this will definitely, this can definitely put uh uh enhance our sales. Uh and even uh the good thing about this is that eighty percent of users they are willing to pay high uh pay more for this uh good looking remote controls also. So even if the available market goes for the available {disfmarker} uh even if the market goes for the available remote control is less even then we can sell it at twenty five Euros, which maybe which may seem quite high but if our looks are are if the re remote control we design have a good better uh better look uh designs, then we can hope that consumers will prefer these g remote controls.
Project Manager: Excellent.
Marketing: Then {disfmarker} {gap} And the second thing, some some companies they think that they should have more and more functions of the users uh or in their remote controls, but rather than those having more functions in the remote controls we should emphasise what actually consumer want, what they operate, rather than making it too complicated. Because mostly it has been found that fifty percent of the users they use only ten percent of the buttons, so there is no point of having ninety percent buttons making the remote controls too bulky, too complicated too expensive a because I think I believe that technology is useful only if uh the consumers they want to use it. Otherwise there is no point of having all this type of things. So this will not only reduce the cost of our remote controls but it will increase our profit also. So we have to take care of this fact also. Then. Uh it was function I want to go to.
Project Manager: Oh you wanna go back? Just escape.
Marketing: Uh, escape, okay thank you. Then if we look at this slide,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: uh these are in your shared documents, you can see,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: like {disfmarker} Uh, sorry.
User Interface: So, sorry {disfmarker} I was just gonna say, what was the question for this? Or is {disfmarker} are you coming on to that?
Marketing: Ah t look all the market potential, what uh how we should design consu our remote controls, what they should be there so as to en enhance our profit, enhance our sales.
User Interface: Okay. So these percentages are are what?
Marketing: Yeah, these are different age group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.
Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.
Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}
Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm, mm.
Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen to twe
Marketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all about
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh market potential by me.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen? Yeah please.
User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.
Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.
Marketing: Sorry.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fun and games.
Marketing: Sorry.
Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.
Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.
Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.
User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.
Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.
User Interface: Um, yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eight?
Marketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.
Project Manager: Function F_ eight.
User Interface: Oh right.
Marketing: Mm s.
User Interface: Okay, cool.
Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.
Project Manager: There you go.
User Interface: Okay. Cool.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh F_ five.
User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do I?
Marketing: Escape.
Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.
User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, User Interface Designer sorry, uh I'm concerned with um w what effect the apparatus should have on the user and um I'm I'm also {disfmarker} I want to point out that our motto, put the fashion in electronics,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so obviously we as a company we want to make our products trendy and fashionable, it's a big concern of ours. Okay, and how do I press n just the next button?
Project Manager: Uh just a left uh
User Interface: The arrow? Okay.
Project Manager: left mouse button.
User Interface: So um I looked at existing designs and also um the information that Raj gave us was very useful about what people like, what people dislike. Um and what people {disfmarker} fashionable, because we said people between twenty five and thirty five were the main um buyers of of our T_V_ I think.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay.
User Interface: So um what they like and what they find fashionable.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And ergonomics, we said um, I don't know I haven't actually been able to do any of this myself,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but um maybe that comes up, I don't know.
Project Manager: That can come under Arlo as well.
User Interface: And the findings, well the basic {disfmarker} that was the basic function to send messages to the television set.
Project Manager: Uh.
User Interface: That's what people want to do. Um, so they need to be included, um, but I've got some pictures here of some leading ones. I don't know how to get to them,
Project Manager: Uh if you if you escape then you can see your bar.
User Interface: {vocalsound} do I press F_ five is it? {gap} escape? Oh okay, cool. I haven't got my glasses on so I hope it's this one.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh okay.
User Interface: These are two leading um remote controls at the moment.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: You know they're grey, they've I mean this one's got loads of buttons, it's hard to tell from here what they actually do,
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and they don't look very exciting at all. Um, personally I prefer this one just because it's looks easier use, it's a bit more sleek with more of this silver stuff,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: um, but there you go, that's what we're up against,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and I think we can do much better than that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We hope so.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Of course. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um hang on. F_ five,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: okay, sorry. Personal preferences. Um, well I think we need to l I think the ergonomics is quite um important, um
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah, particularly if we've uh there was a bit in Raj's about R_S_I_ and things as well.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh-huh. And um I thought not too edgy and like a box, more kind of hand-held more um {vocalsound} not as uh computery and
Project Manager: Organic {vocalsound}.
User Interface: or organic, yeah, more organic shape I think. {vocalsound} Um simple designs, like the last one we just saw, not too many buttons and as Raj pointed out, only ten percent {disfmarker} fifty percent of people only use ten percent of the buttons,
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so I think what we can miss out on the buttons we can make up for in design and and how nice it looks.
Project Manager: Sales, {gap}. Okay.
User Interface: Um, hand-held and portable I think is portamint is important because T_F_T_ have just um released um I think is it a a remote control for presentations or uh and a big seven inch big screen, anyway, so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah it's like a, yeah. {vocalsound} It's {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, no seven inches isn't that big but um anyway um so hand-held and portable and uh m I thought about other functions for T_V_ but as you pointed out people don't actually want that,
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And also the company want to keep it stuck to the T_V_ for uh to keep down the production time.
User Interface: so maybe we forget about that. It's for one T_V_ oh right okay, sure. And so the last thing I thought w which I quickly mentioned in the other one was maybe a bit of a gimmick to set us apart from other people, like glow-in-the-dark
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Exactly. Yeah.
User Interface: um which {vocalsound} does already e exist but it's not very widely used I don't think.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Easy finder with the a whistle function or something,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: or rechargeable station because it's a pain when you run out of batteries.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And I think that, yep, that's it.
Project Manager: That's cool.
Industrial Designer: So uh, I noticed your talk about speech recognition and whistling,
User Interface: Okay? Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and uh I was just curious to know, have we done any research into how many people can whistle? Um, or if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: is that a function we want in the remote?
Project Manager: Um, do you have trouble whistling?
User Interface: Um, I haven't been able to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't, but I I know a lot of people do right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Really?
Industrial Designer: Yeah it just
Project Manager: Ooh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I mean it has to be a certain kind of whistle too, right?
Project Manager: Yeah, I suppose that's true.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, yeah
Project Manager: Well I suppo uh you could y you could have the
User Interface: or some sort of voice {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you could have the basically um instead of a whistle if it's got the voice recognition you could have it just, you know, where are you? {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's costly though.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um a much easier thing is just any loud noise like clapping um, shouting, you know,
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: uh and then, what would the response be? It beeps back at you or something?
Project Manager: Sounds good.
User Interface: Yeah, something.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, uh let me set this up. So I plug it in, press F_ five? Function F_ five?
Project Manager: Function F_ eight for the um the uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or function F_ eight? Okay.
User Interface: Oh you need to twiddle the thingamibobsy thing.
Industrial Designer: Okay. I think it's {vocalsound} uh just to lock it in. It's got it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} So as the Industrial Designer my job is to take an input from you guys,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: um so it's good you went first,
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: and I jotted down some notes as to what are the b needs and uh what kind of novel features we can add to differentiate our product from the others.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Let's remember that.
Industrial Designer: Um so Raj told us that uh consumers are willing to spend more for fancy products, and um he also mentioned that uh the current products don't always match users'operating behaviour. Um, a lot of the buttons aren't used, and uh {vocalsound} he mentioned that they're not fun to use. And uh a novel feature which uh we just brought up was this this automatic speech recognition feature or noise detection feature for when you lose the remote,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: there could be a little microphone on it, and any noise over a certain threshold um it'll pick up as a a distress signal um from you and it'll beep back and say you know oh here I am or something of this sort.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. But sure surely that would have to be um sort of specific rather than above a threshold'cause if you had a loud movie on you're likely to get it beeping back at you.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, yeah, that's true.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well maybe you could have a um hmm {vocalsound} tha that would be a consideration to take into account yes. Um.
Project Manager: Sorry I didn't mean to derail you there. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah well tha that's uh for later down the road um, and then as for the user interface it should be trendy, um {vocalsound} and not computery,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: right, so more low tech and not too many buttons.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So I took these all into consideration and also I have some limitations from the boss.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right um, and practical limitations which I kinda threw out the window.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so I did a little research and unfortunately all I had to work on was our uh our corporate archives of the great products we've made before,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which include, you know, um space craft, coffee makers, and bullet trains {disfmarker} Or uh or a high speed train.
Project Manager: Ah is that what that is? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right and having personally worked with all these products uh I have a great deal of experience with uh with industrial design of these.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. So,
User Interface: Yeah sure.
Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one button
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is it?
Industrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it was fifty million Euros?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them? Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.
Marketing: Fifty million was uh prof
Project Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}
Marketing: As a profit.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.
Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably just be uh your regular batteries {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: um, we don't wanna have it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Would it be possible to have the rechargeable idea? Is that is that gonna mark up a lot?
Industrial Designer: Uh.
User Interface: Or a little base station or something, {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, we could do that too. Um, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} That might cost more though,'cause obviously with batteries we don't need to provide, well we provide the first batteries, but it's more, it's {disfmarker} that's cheaper to just provide batteries.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: I mean if you think about these base stations now it's essentially just a a lead with a sort of self connecting brake in it,
User Interface: A battery in it, kinda.
Project Manager: so I don't think it'd up up the price that much.
Industrial Designer: Right, so so {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: the unirs the user interface
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: uh the canonical user interface for these would be just a bunch of buttons, but since we're a cutting edge company, we uh of course will have alternatives like uh speech recognition, whistling recognition and rocket power
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: behind our product.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um and lastly the transmission interface is uh, just some engineering thing you don't have to worry about.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um so here's you know, a great schematic that my uh apprentice designer gave me.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um as you can see the the remote control have parts and those parts look like that and um {vocalsound} you know it's got a little operating procedure that looks something like that. {vocalsound} And I suppose you all know how it works because we've all used it and we wouldn't be in a company designing remote controls if we didn't know what they were so {disfmarker} uh personal preferences, I think uh programmable options which um just require a small amount of memory, uh non volatile memory, just um so the user can put in their favourite channels and maybe their preferred volume settings so that when they turn it on it's not blasting.
User Interface: Mm. Mm that's a good idea actually I like the programmable options.
Marketing: Yeah, me too.
Industrial Designer: Oh okay. And the uh, the bells and whistles that we mentioned you know, they take more budgeting, um more technical uh expenditure of effort
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it's also much more likely to not work if if we add these bells and whistles.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's all I got.
Project Manager:'Kay, thank you very much, um I'll take that back.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ooh that's tight.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right, also so um a notice I got not very long before the meeting, so didn't manage to forward it on to you, it is {disfmarker} let's see, I'll find it myself, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Ta
Industrial Designer: Okay, I don't think we need to screw it in.
Project Manager: nah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just push it.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We had that um to dis-include teletext um because it's become outdated, and everybody uses the internet anyway. Um, {vocalsound} dunno what Oracle would have to say with that but never mind.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um it's only for the television, which I'm presuming means it's for a specific television,
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: and um instead of colours and sorta colour options, they want corporate colour and slogan somehow implemented in the new design.
User Interface: Corporate colour.
Project Manager: Yellow.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yellow. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I presume. Um, everything, all their sort of uh you know the uh corporate website and everything's yellow.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And the logo uh the sort of slogan we put the fa fashion in electronics uh {disfmarker} I don't know exactly how sort of incorpor I mean, I guess if you're going for a sort of globular shape you could kind of have it working its way round it or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, where am I? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, so, we have to decide on which functions we're going to actually have.
User Interface:'Kay.
Project Manager: Uh, {vocalsound} now, we had as listed options we had
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: speech recognition potentially, flat screen interface, L_C_D_ interface um we also want to limit the number of buttons so we'll pretty much take that one as read.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: We'll use the the basic functions for a television. No teletext. Um {vocalsound} okay hold on.
User Interface: Although the the danger with that is, it could look a bit cheap.
Project Manager: Not enough buttons you mean?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So sorta strike a balance between a a few and a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or it looks like we're just cutting on the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm. On the number of buttons, kind of functions and stuff.
Project Manager: I do however have this from over my head, that they don't want teletext on it.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, okay. Okay, cool.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh maybe Raj you could find out what people would think about that, or maybe they'll send
Marketing: About cost.
Project Manager: some information about that, about um what people, whether people would require um teletext in a remote {disfmarker} teletext option in a remote control.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay um {gap}. So uh I take it your position Arlo is that the bells and whistles we've gotta come up with the {disfmarker} a gimmick but not too complicated a gimmick.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Um so I mean a a the sort of inkling I'm getting from little bits of um web chatter that I'm getting sent is that they're quite interested in a T_F_T_ display, interactive display. However that does sound a bit like the more complicated design that rav uh sorry Raj um {vocalsound} said people didn't like. Although I guess if there's a sort of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Project Manager: If you think about standard interfaces that people use already, sort of Windows-style drop down menus or whatever,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: I think maybe that's a bit, going a bit far
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but you know like in a basic sense that you could have your basic selection of buttons, and if you hit a sort of menu at the top you have um {vocalsound} it goes to a different selection of buttons, so it sorta keeps it simple.
User Interface: Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: Um glow in the dark, is that sort of with a light inside it or is it sort of glow in the dark material?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh.
User Interface: Glow in the dark material I was thinking.
Project Manager: Okay. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, so I I guess that would be cheaper than a light I think.
Marketing: Uh may I say something about {gap}?
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Uh actually I think it's really really very important point uh as if we look at the market because people mor fifty percent people they find that the remote controls are often lost somewhere in the remote, in the room. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Often lost s was that,
Marketing: yeah are lost
Project Manager: Lost, yeah.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: and means they forget where they have kept the remote control last time. But if we add speech recognition as well as glow in the dark then both these factors will help their locating the remote control,
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: like if they come and speak something at the remote control uh replies to something something and it glows in the dark. Both these factors uh both these points will help them to locate the where they have kept this remote control,
Project Manager: That's cool.
User Interface: Mm-hmm,
Marketing: and this will definitely enhance our uh market sales,
Project Manager: That's cool.
User Interface: mm-hmm.
Marketing: so we should take it into consideration also.
Project Manager: Okay, cool.
Industrial Designer: Well hmm.
Project Manager: Um speech recognition I take it {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't, I've {disfmarker} I know of no products um that use speech recognition well.
Industrial Designer: They're act there there was a remote control that came out two years ago that had a {disfmarker} some basic speech recognition on it. You could programme it with your channels and then you say you know like uh B_B_C_ one and it goes to that channel.
Project Manager: Really?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it didn't work very well though because of this noise interference problem. They mentioned you know if the television says you are listening to B_B_C_ one {gap}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah, or a yeah an advert an advert for B_B_C_ two on B_B_C_ one'll switch the channel for you kinda thing.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Right, right, and so there was a lot of this, you'd be watching the T_V_ and then all of a sudden it'd it'd pick up a noise and turn it off or you know or turn the volume off or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}
User Interface:'Kay.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} something
Project Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you find if y
Industrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.
Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speaker
Project Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.
Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}
User Interface: That comes with our remote control.
Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.
Industrial Designer: Right, right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to find it again. If you do have this sorta speech interface to it, you don't even need to find it. You just say you know, um whatever you whatever you want the remote for, you know to change the channel or to uh turn the T_V_ on and off, you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it's within you know, within hearing range. And uh you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you've no idea where it is and it would still do its job.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: That could also be built into the T_V_ though, which might make our remote control a bit obsolete.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well, hopefully we're uh we're ahead of the curve. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It might do us out of a job.
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay. {vocalsound} I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing. Um so I think rather than {disfmarker} and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that,
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: so I th
User Interface: And the expense.
Project Manager: yeah and expense and the time.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So I think if we're going to go {disfmarker} well I mean like the thing about the {disfmarker} there's the problem with the T_F_T_ or the L_C_D_ kind of thing is if you're also wanting the the kind of uh organic globby sort of feeling to it then you might have trouble incorporating the screen.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Um, but I guess not I thin we'll just we'll just pretend that's not a problem. Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} and how are you about the glow in the dark material? Is that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um.
User Interface: Maybe not even all of it'cause we said um colours and fashion w were important so maybe um just like a little l line that's kind of around the outside and then you can make the rest a different colour.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Contrast contra well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, no th the material's cheap but it's just uh the the glow in the dark material needs some light to charge it you know, and then uh if you're, if you're sitting in the dark for too long it uh it won't glow any more.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So if it's dow it's d uh yeah. Or if it's down under the couch cushions
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: um which is where I usually find mine.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay, well we can use {disfmarker} we can still use the glow in the dark as a gimmick essentially,
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: um if we're gonna have to {disfmarker}
User Interface:'cause what I thought, main {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're gonna have the logo on as well, bright yellow logo in our our um slogan.
User Interface: Slogan, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh then you know they're gonna be fairly brightly coloured anyway, and we can have sort of a a a trimming as well, of the glow in the dark material, just as gimmickyness.
User Interface: Right. Mm-hmm.'Cause yeah, that w more than finding it, that was more like you know if you're watching a film in the dark, you can um still see the remote control.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Alright, so n sorta if if if we're gon if we're gonna go with the idea of um {vocalsound} uh of feedback, sort of remote finder, then that kinda stuffs that one out then.
User Interface: That was more of a a gimmick.
Project Manager: Do you think?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Uh it makes it fairly unnecessary then.
User Interface: Yeah, unnecessary. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Um, okay so scratch that. Uh so we've got do we want to go with the T_F_T_ idea or the {disfmarker} is that far too expensive?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah we're getting a lot of features now, I I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well I mean I think I think the sort of find the finder things I mean it's uh I could probably write the circuit diagram for that myself.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, I think a consideration too is that these uh remotes get abused a lot, you know they get thrown around,
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: there's a good chance the the T_F_T_ screen would break or uh get damaged.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: They're pretty fragile.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So is that one of our definite requirements that they wa that it needs a T_F_T_ screen?
Project Manager: Um no, I mean {gap} that was going on ravs uh Raj's sort of um marketing research I guess. Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} So we'll stick with sort of programmability um for the buttons that we do have. Um. {gap} So that's sort of included in your sub-module kind of stuff, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} you were finding out about teletext.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: If you could find out that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Totally, it takes cheap speech recognition, she {disfmarker} they wi
Project Manager: Um I think we're gonna scratch the speech recognition as a bit of a
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: um expensive,
User Interface: Yeah you think so?
Industrial Designer: Oh no it's it's much cheaper than the T_F_T_, it's just a microphone and some some integrated circuits.
Project Manager: no? Oh right, okay.
Industrial Designer: And it'd it'd be a small vocabulary speech recognition system,
Project Manager: Is it not the circuits that cost {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh right, okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh well that kind of takes back the R_F_ {vocalsound} the R_F_ remote sort of idea as well.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um. {vocalsound} Five minutes. Okay. Decisions. Uh, votes, let's vote. Who wants T_F_T_?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No-one does.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Excellent, so we'll go with speech recognition, yeah?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, that's cool.
Project Manager: Um, speech recognition, limited buttons, organic design. And what else was I thinking of that I haven't written down and therefore fallen out my head,
User Interface: Um
Project Manager: programmability.
Marketing: Glow in dark.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: if it's not too expensive s I think it's a good gimmick.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh o okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}
Project Manager: And also, integrating the, remember to integrate the logo and the s slogan. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay, so. Um can you put all these reports in the project documents folder if they're not already in there as well. So, it just helps me summarize them.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Here? Sure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And um I'll put any {disfmarker} {gap} I'm I'm putting anything I do in there anyway, so uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And where is it sorry?
Project Manager: Uh pro uh project documents.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it should be when you save
Project Manager: On A_M_I_ scenario controller.
Industrial Designer: on your desktop, so it goes save as, or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh {gap}.
Marketing: Uh it is in shared documents?
Industrial Designer: And then uh hit that little folder up thing again.
Project Manager: Where am I?
Marketing: Projoct uh projector.
Industrial Designer: Again.
Project Manager: Project documents, yeah, it's on your desktop as well.
Industrial Designer: All the way to the top, yeah that's up to desktop. Right and then project documents.
User Interface: Okay, cool.
Marketing: Hmm. It is not giving anything.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Shared documents.
Project Manager: And I will tr {gap} getting strings of um information, I'll try and forward any specific to anybody in particular, as soon as I get them now, rather than {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: I was about to sort of tell you about the changes before the meeting, and then the meeting turned up, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Did you get my email? Okay.
Project Manager: I did {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just making sure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} What I thought as well about the material is um maybe not this kind of material, but maybe more like um this kind of rubbery material, it's a bit more bouncy, like you said they get chucked around a lot. Um, a bit more {vocalsound} durable and that can also be ergonomic
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: and it kind of feels a bit different from all the other remote controls.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: The rubber rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: More sort of um flesh-like than plasticky sort of.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Wow.
Marketing: Um but we have to take care like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But we have to take care of our children also if they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} means if children catch hold of your or if they chew it it shouldn't be too harmful. So, whatever material we use it should be {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Oh no, ethics, {vocalsound} that's gonna cost us money. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} we have to safety point of view also, we have to take care.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, safety.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Oh I think wi with the more organic shape of it it won't be as {disfmarker} it won't as have many sharp corners as that, so that's something good, um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I dunno, I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could go comp yeah.
Project Manager: It sme {vocalsound} smells good for children. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We could go completely out of the box and make the thing a big red ball foam ball.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it's got the thing on the inside.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And there's no buttons at all, it's always on, and just yell at it, and it works.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That sounds,
User Interface: That's a good idea.
Industrial Designer: And then ch children will love it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah it's gonna have to be it's gonna be have a big yellow foam ball, yeah, sorry.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Interesting.
Industrial Designer: Oh yellow, yellow ball. Right.
User Interface: Yeah, d with the colour, um does it have to be all yellow, do you know?
Project Manager: Please God no. Um. Well, I wouldn't th I mean,
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: my reaction to an all-yellow remote control wouldn't be anything other than horror, so I think just having it
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Small logo with the like a small yellow strip or y yellow {gap} with the logo in it.
Project Manager: surrounding the logo.
User Interface: Having a little bit. Okay cool. Mm mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, okay.
Project Manager: And I'll see if I can argue with boss about putting the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Cool.
Project Manager: what was it? We put {vocalsound} we put fashion into {disfmarker} Whoops, it's not working. Can't believe I've forgotten it {gap}. We put the fashion in electronics. {vocalsound} I bet that'll catch on well.
User Interface: Oh yeah, that's a good one that. Yeah so.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, any last
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Twelve thirty.
Project Manager: worries, queries? Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S s {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: I know what you're thinking.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay then, lunchtime, yay.
Marketing: That's good.
Project Manager: Okay, that felt a bit more like a {disfmarker} something with order and and reason to it than the last one.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is quite fun actually.
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Has anybo oh.
Project Manager: I really don't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Has anybody pressed okay, it vibrates. It's pretty cool.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Check here.
Project Manager: Wow you've {gap} your first page.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I've been using up the pages.
Project Manager: I was just writing really big. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, got small writing. I don't wanna waste it.
Project Manager: I've finished the meeting now.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Another questionnaire.
Project Manager: Oh, everybody needs k questionnaire.
Marketing: {vocalsound} | After a thorough discussion, the team finally reached a consensus that the new design would have seven functions. First, the new remotes would dis-include teletext because that was obsolete. Second, they wanted to integrate the corporate colour and slogan in the new design. Third, speech recognition would be included. Fourth, the new remotes could glow in the dark. Fifth, there would be limited buttons on the remotes. Sixth, the design was organic. Seventh, the new remotes would be with programmability. | qmsum |
What were the difficulties in applying speech recognition in the new remote controls?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} minutes from the last meeting which were essentially that we uh had decided on roles for each of you, however, um there are some changes that I've got from on high
User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um are a bit uh {disfmarker} well w what I didn't actually realise it was that the uh {vocalsound} this is for a specific television.
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So the all in one idea goes out the window. And {vocalsound} they require that the uh
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: actually I'll get to that at the end {gap} point number four, um we'll get what you've got and then we can see what we can adapt from it. So um, presentations, were you {disfmarker} anybody got, raring to go?
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah.
Project Manager: Raring to go? Okay. Good stuff. Mm.
Marketing: Um. So how {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I need to plug you in. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S {gap}
Project Manager: Just about.
User Interface: Wow. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's a inspired design.
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sh do you want me to hold it?
Project Manager: Uh there we go, just screw'em on in. Gonna have to swap them round so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So, after that?
Project Manager: now, it was function F_ eight.
Marketing: F_ eight. {vocalsound} f oh sorry F_ eight.
Project Manager: That's the wee blue one. Blue one F_ eight.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: Should do it, good one.
Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, me again, Rajan the Marketing Expert. Uh, as we have decided in the last meeting that I have to find out, sorry, yeah sure.
Project Manager: Hold on, sorry. {gap} and if you just click that it'll go ahead, one at a time.
Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Uh actually, sorry I have to see the other {gap}, sorry.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry, uh.
Marketing: Yeah, thank you.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh, yes, I have to look at the uh market potential for this product, uh, like consumer likings and everything, what is the potential for this product and are we able to achieve our a net profit or our aims or not? Then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: P press F_ five to start it first.
Marketing: Sorry. Okay. Yeah, I can, okay.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Jesus.
Marketing: Uh then uh the methodology I adopted to find out all this was market survey. A a detailed market survey on consumers was done to find out their likings and dislikings, what they prefer what they not prefer, w what problems they do encounter in all this type of things. And what we got was, we found that {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} uh, what they th what problems they are having with different uh remote controls available in the market. Seventy five percent of users they do find it that the remote controls available in the market are ugly. They are not so good looking. So, we have to put stress on this, uh we have to take care of this fact also like our design, uh should be appropriate, should be good looking for the consumers. And yes that's wi uh this will definitely, this can definitely put uh uh enhance our sales. Uh and even uh the good thing about this is that eighty percent of users they are willing to pay high uh pay more for this uh good looking remote controls also. So even if the available market goes for the available {disfmarker} uh even if the market goes for the available remote control is less even then we can sell it at twenty five Euros, which maybe which may seem quite high but if our looks are are if the re remote control we design have a good better uh better look uh designs, then we can hope that consumers will prefer these g remote controls.
Project Manager: Excellent.
Marketing: Then {disfmarker} {gap} And the second thing, some some companies they think that they should have more and more functions of the users uh or in their remote controls, but rather than those having more functions in the remote controls we should emphasise what actually consumer want, what they operate, rather than making it too complicated. Because mostly it has been found that fifty percent of the users they use only ten percent of the buttons, so there is no point of having ninety percent buttons making the remote controls too bulky, too complicated too expensive a because I think I believe that technology is useful only if uh the consumers they want to use it. Otherwise there is no point of having all this type of things. So this will not only reduce the cost of our remote controls but it will increase our profit also. So we have to take care of this fact also. Then. Uh it was function I want to go to.
Project Manager: Oh you wanna go back? Just escape.
Marketing: Uh, escape, okay thank you. Then if we look at this slide,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: uh these are in your shared documents, you can see,
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: like {disfmarker} Uh, sorry.
User Interface: So, sorry {disfmarker} I was just gonna say, what was the question for this? Or is {disfmarker} are you coming on to that?
Marketing: Ah t look all the market potential, what uh how we should design consu our remote controls, what they should be there so as to en enhance our profit, enhance our sales.
User Interface: Okay. So these percentages are are what?
Marketing: Yeah, these are different age group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.
Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.
Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,
User Interface: Hmm.
Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}
Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm, mm.
Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen to twe
Marketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all about
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh market potential by me.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.
Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen? Yeah please.
User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.
Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.
Marketing: Sorry.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fun and games.
Marketing: Sorry.
Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.
Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.
Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay.
Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.
User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.
Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.
User Interface: Um, yep.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eight?
Marketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.
Project Manager: Function F_ eight.
User Interface: Oh right.
Marketing: Mm s.
User Interface: Okay, cool.
Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.
User Interface: Oh.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.
Project Manager: Hmm.
Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.
Project Manager: There you go.
User Interface: Okay. Cool.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh F_ five.
User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do I?
Marketing: Escape.
Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.
User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, User Interface Designer sorry, uh I'm concerned with um w what effect the apparatus should have on the user and um I'm I'm also {disfmarker} I want to point out that our motto, put the fashion in electronics,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so obviously we as a company we want to make our products trendy and fashionable, it's a big concern of ours. Okay, and how do I press n just the next button?
Project Manager: Uh just a left uh
User Interface: The arrow? Okay.
Project Manager: left mouse button.
User Interface: So um I looked at existing designs and also um the information that Raj gave us was very useful about what people like, what people dislike. Um and what people {disfmarker} fashionable, because we said people between twenty five and thirty five were the main um buyers of of our T_V_ I think.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay.
User Interface: So um what they like and what they find fashionable.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: {vocalsound} And ergonomics, we said um, I don't know I haven't actually been able to do any of this myself,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but um maybe that comes up, I don't know.
Project Manager: That can come under Arlo as well.
User Interface: And the findings, well the basic {disfmarker} that was the basic function to send messages to the television set.
Project Manager: Uh.
User Interface: That's what people want to do. Um, so they need to be included, um, but I've got some pictures here of some leading ones. I don't know how to get to them,
Project Manager: Uh if you if you escape then you can see your bar.
User Interface: {vocalsound} do I press F_ five is it? {gap} escape? Oh okay, cool. I haven't got my glasses on so I hope it's this one.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh okay.
User Interface: These are two leading um remote controls at the moment.
Project Manager:'Kay.
User Interface: You know they're grey, they've I mean this one's got loads of buttons, it's hard to tell from here what they actually do,
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and they don't look very exciting at all. Um, personally I prefer this one just because it's looks easier use, it's a bit more sleek with more of this silver stuff,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: um, but there you go, that's what we're up against,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and I think we can do much better than that.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We hope so.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Of course. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um hang on. F_ five,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: okay, sorry. Personal preferences. Um, well I think we need to l I think the ergonomics is quite um important, um
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah, particularly if we've uh there was a bit in Raj's about R_S_I_ and things as well.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Uh-huh. And um I thought not too edgy and like a box, more kind of hand-held more um {vocalsound} not as uh computery and
Project Manager: Organic {vocalsound}.
User Interface: or organic, yeah, more organic shape I think. {vocalsound} Um simple designs, like the last one we just saw, not too many buttons and as Raj pointed out, only ten percent {disfmarker} fifty percent of people only use ten percent of the buttons,
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: so I think what we can miss out on the buttons we can make up for in design and and how nice it looks.
Project Manager: Sales, {gap}. Okay.
User Interface: Um, hand-held and portable I think is portamint is important because T_F_T_ have just um released um I think is it a a remote control for presentations or uh and a big seven inch big screen, anyway, so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah it's like a, yeah. {vocalsound} It's {gap}. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, no seven inches isn't that big but um anyway um so hand-held and portable and uh m I thought about other functions for T_V_ but as you pointed out people don't actually want that,
Project Manager: Right.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: And also the company want to keep it stuck to the T_V_ for uh to keep down the production time.
User Interface: so maybe we forget about that. It's for one T_V_ oh right okay, sure. And so the last thing I thought w which I quickly mentioned in the other one was maybe a bit of a gimmick to set us apart from other people, like glow-in-the-dark
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Exactly. Yeah.
User Interface: um which {vocalsound} does already e exist but it's not very widely used I don't think.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Easy finder with the a whistle function or something,
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: or rechargeable station because it's a pain when you run out of batteries.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: And I think that, yep, that's it.
Project Manager: That's cool.
Industrial Designer: So uh, I noticed your talk about speech recognition and whistling,
User Interface: Okay? Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: and uh I was just curious to know, have we done any research into how many people can whistle? Um, or if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: is that a function we want in the remote?
Project Manager: Um, do you have trouble whistling?
User Interface: Um, I haven't been able to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't, but I I know a lot of people do right.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Really?
Industrial Designer: Yeah it just
Project Manager: Ooh. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I mean it has to be a certain kind of whistle too, right?
Project Manager: Yeah, I suppose that's true.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, yeah
Project Manager: Well I suppo uh you could y you could have the
User Interface: or some sort of voice {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you could have the basically um instead of a whistle if it's got the voice recognition you could have it just, you know, where are you? {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's costly though.
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Um a much easier thing is just any loud noise like clapping um, shouting, you know,
Project Manager: Hmm.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: uh and then, what would the response be? It beeps back at you or something?
Project Manager: Sounds good.
User Interface: Yeah, something.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well, uh let me set this up. So I plug it in, press F_ five? Function F_ five?
Project Manager: Function F_ eight for the um the uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or function F_ eight? Okay.
User Interface: Oh you need to twiddle the thingamibobsy thing.
Industrial Designer: Okay. I think it's {vocalsound} uh just to lock it in. It's got it.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} So as the Industrial Designer my job is to take an input from you guys,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: um so it's good you went first,
Project Manager: Alright.
Industrial Designer: and I jotted down some notes as to what are the b needs and uh what kind of novel features we can add to differentiate our product from the others.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Let's remember that.
Industrial Designer: Um so Raj told us that uh consumers are willing to spend more for fancy products, and um he also mentioned that uh the current products don't always match users'operating behaviour. Um, a lot of the buttons aren't used, and uh {vocalsound} he mentioned that they're not fun to use. And uh a novel feature which uh we just brought up was this this automatic speech recognition feature or noise detection feature for when you lose the remote,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: there could be a little microphone on it, and any noise over a certain threshold um it'll pick up as a a distress signal um from you and it'll beep back and say you know oh here I am or something of this sort.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm. But sure surely that would have to be um sort of specific rather than above a threshold'cause if you had a loud movie on you're likely to get it beeping back at you.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, yeah, that's true.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Well maybe you could have a um hmm {vocalsound} tha that would be a consideration to take into account yes. Um.
Project Manager: Sorry I didn't mean to derail you there. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah well tha that's uh for later down the road um, and then as for the user interface it should be trendy, um {vocalsound} and not computery,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: right, so more low tech and not too many buttons.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: So I took these all into consideration and also I have some limitations from the boss.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right um, and practical limitations which I kinda threw out the window.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so I did a little research and unfortunately all I had to work on was our uh our corporate archives of the great products we've made before,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which include, you know, um space craft, coffee makers, and bullet trains {disfmarker} Or uh or a high speed train.
Project Manager: Ah is that what that is? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right and having personally worked with all these products uh I have a great deal of experience with uh with industrial design of these.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right. So,
User Interface: Yeah sure.
Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one button
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is it?
Industrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it was fifty million Euros?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them? Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.
Marketing: Fifty million was uh prof
Project Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}
Marketing: As a profit.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.
Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably just be uh your regular batteries {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay.
Industrial Designer: um, we don't wanna have it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Would it be possible to have the rechargeable idea? Is that is that gonna mark up a lot?
Industrial Designer: Uh.
User Interface: Or a little base station or something, {gap}.
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, we could do that too. Um, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah.
User Interface: {vocalsound} That might cost more though,'cause obviously with batteries we don't need to provide, well we provide the first batteries, but it's more, it's {disfmarker} that's cheaper to just provide batteries.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: I mean if you think about these base stations now it's essentially just a a lead with a sort of self connecting brake in it,
User Interface: A battery in it, kinda.
Project Manager: so I don't think it'd up up the price that much.
Industrial Designer: Right, so so {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: the unirs the user interface
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay.
Industrial Designer: uh the canonical user interface for these would be just a bunch of buttons, but since we're a cutting edge company, we uh of course will have alternatives like uh speech recognition, whistling recognition and rocket power
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: behind our product.
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um and lastly the transmission interface is uh, just some engineering thing you don't have to worry about.
Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um so here's you know, a great schematic that my uh apprentice designer gave me.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um as you can see the the remote control have parts and those parts look like that and um {vocalsound} you know it's got a little operating procedure that looks something like that. {vocalsound} And I suppose you all know how it works because we've all used it and we wouldn't be in a company designing remote controls if we didn't know what they were so {disfmarker} uh personal preferences, I think uh programmable options which um just require a small amount of memory, uh non volatile memory, just um so the user can put in their favourite channels and maybe their preferred volume settings so that when they turn it on it's not blasting.
User Interface: Mm. Mm that's a good idea actually I like the programmable options.
Marketing: Yeah, me too.
Industrial Designer: Oh okay. And the uh, the bells and whistles that we mentioned you know, they take more budgeting, um more technical uh expenditure of effort
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it's also much more likely to not work if if we add these bells and whistles.
Project Manager: Right.
User Interface: Mm'kay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: That's all I got.
Project Manager:'Kay, thank you very much, um I'll take that back.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ooh that's tight.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right, also so um a notice I got not very long before the meeting, so didn't manage to forward it on to you, it is {disfmarker} let's see, I'll find it myself, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Ta
Industrial Designer: Okay, I don't think we need to screw it in.
Project Manager: nah. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just push it.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: We had that um to dis-include teletext um because it's become outdated, and everybody uses the internet anyway. Um, {vocalsound} dunno what Oracle would have to say with that but never mind.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Um it's only for the television, which I'm presuming means it's for a specific television,
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: and um instead of colours and sorta colour options, they want corporate colour and slogan somehow implemented in the new design.
User Interface: Corporate colour.
Project Manager: Yellow.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Yellow. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I presume. Um, everything, all their sort of uh you know the uh corporate website and everything's yellow.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: And the logo uh the sort of slogan we put the fa fashion in electronics uh {disfmarker} I don't know exactly how sort of incorpor I mean, I guess if you're going for a sort of globular shape you could kind of have it working its way round it or something.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: Uh, where am I? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, so, we have to decide on which functions we're going to actually have.
User Interface:'Kay.
Project Manager: Uh, {vocalsound} now, we had as listed options we had
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: speech recognition potentially, flat screen interface, L_C_D_ interface um we also want to limit the number of buttons so we'll pretty much take that one as read.
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: We'll use the the basic functions for a television. No teletext. Um {vocalsound} okay hold on.
User Interface: Although the the danger with that is, it could look a bit cheap.
Project Manager: Not enough buttons you mean?
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: So sorta strike a balance between a a few and a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or it looks like we're just cutting on the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm. On the number of buttons, kind of functions and stuff.
Project Manager: I do however have this from over my head, that they don't want teletext on it.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, okay. Okay, cool.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh maybe Raj you could find out what people would think about that, or maybe they'll send
Marketing: About cost.
Project Manager: some information about that, about um what people, whether people would require um teletext in a remote {disfmarker} teletext option in a remote control.
Marketing: Okay.
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay um {gap}. So uh I take it your position Arlo is that the bells and whistles we've gotta come up with the {disfmarker} a gimmick but not too complicated a gimmick.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
Project Manager: Um so I mean a a the sort of inkling I'm getting from little bits of um web chatter that I'm getting sent is that they're quite interested in a T_F_T_ display, interactive display. However that does sound a bit like the more complicated design that rav uh sorry Raj um {vocalsound} said people didn't like. Although I guess if there's a sort of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Project Manager: If you think about standard interfaces that people use already, sort of Windows-style drop down menus or whatever,
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: I think maybe that's a bit, going a bit far
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: but you know like in a basic sense that you could have your basic selection of buttons, and if you hit a sort of menu at the top you have um {vocalsound} it goes to a different selection of buttons, so it sorta keeps it simple.
User Interface: Yeah. Okay.
Project Manager: Um glow in the dark, is that sort of with a light inside it or is it sort of glow in the dark material?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh.
User Interface: Glow in the dark material I was thinking.
Project Manager: Okay. So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um, so I I guess that would be cheaper than a light I think.
Marketing: Uh may I say something about {gap}?
Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah.
Marketing: Uh actually I think it's really really very important point uh as if we look at the market because people mor fifty percent people they find that the remote controls are often lost somewhere in the remote, in the room. But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Often lost s was that,
Marketing: yeah are lost
Project Manager: Lost, yeah.
User Interface: yeah.
Marketing: and means they forget where they have kept the remote control last time. But if we add speech recognition as well as glow in the dark then both these factors will help their locating the remote control,
User Interface: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marketing: like if they come and speak something at the remote control uh replies to something something and it glows in the dark. Both these factors uh both these points will help them to locate the where they have kept this remote control,
Project Manager: That's cool.
User Interface: Mm-hmm,
Marketing: and this will definitely enhance our uh market sales,
Project Manager: That's cool.
User Interface: mm-hmm.
Marketing: so we should take it into consideration also.
Project Manager: Okay, cool.
Industrial Designer: Well hmm.
Project Manager: Um speech recognition I take it {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't, I've {disfmarker} I know of no products um that use speech recognition well.
Industrial Designer: They're act there there was a remote control that came out two years ago that had a {disfmarker} some basic speech recognition on it. You could programme it with your channels and then you say you know like uh B_B_C_ one and it goes to that channel.
Project Manager: Really?
Industrial Designer: Yeah, it didn't work very well though because of this noise interference problem. They mentioned you know if the television says you are listening to B_B_C_ one {gap}.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Yeah, or a yeah an advert an advert for B_B_C_ two on B_B_C_ one'll switch the channel for you kinda thing.
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Right, right, and so there was a lot of this, you'd be watching the T_V_ and then all of a sudden it'd it'd pick up a noise and turn it off or you know or turn the volume off or something,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}
User Interface:'Kay.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} something
Project Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you find if y
Industrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.
User Interface: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.
User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.
Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speaker
Project Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.
Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}
User Interface: That comes with our remote control.
Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Yeah.
Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.
Industrial Designer: Right, right.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to find it again. If you do have this sorta speech interface to it, you don't even need to find it. You just say you know, um whatever you whatever you want the remote for, you know to change the channel or to uh turn the T_V_ on and off, you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it's within you know, within hearing range. And uh you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you've no idea where it is and it would still do its job.
Project Manager: Uh-huh.
User Interface: That could also be built into the T_V_ though, which might make our remote control a bit obsolete.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Well, hopefully we're uh we're ahead of the curve. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It might do us out of a job.
User Interface: Yeah, okay.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay. {vocalsound} I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing. Um so I think rather than {disfmarker} and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that,
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: Hmm.
Project Manager: so I th
User Interface: And the expense.
Project Manager: yeah and expense and the time.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So I think if we're going to go {disfmarker} well I mean like the thing about the {disfmarker} there's the problem with the T_F_T_ or the L_C_D_ kind of thing is if you're also wanting the the kind of uh organic globby sort of feeling to it then you might have trouble incorporating the screen.
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Um, but I guess not I thin we'll just we'll just pretend that's not a problem. Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} and how are you about the glow in the dark material? Is that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um.
User Interface: Maybe not even all of it'cause we said um colours and fashion w were important so maybe um just like a little l line that's kind of around the outside and then you can make the rest a different colour.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
Project Manager: Contrast contra well.
Industrial Designer: Yeah, no th the material's cheap but it's just uh the the glow in the dark material needs some light to charge it you know, and then uh if you're, if you're sitting in the dark for too long it uh it won't glow any more.
Project Manager: Yeah, okay.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: So if it's dow it's d uh yeah. Or if it's down under the couch cushions
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: um which is where I usually find mine.
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Right.
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay, well we can use {disfmarker} we can still use the glow in the dark as a gimmick essentially,
User Interface: Yeah,
Project Manager: um if we're gonna have to {disfmarker}
User Interface:'cause what I thought, main {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're gonna have the logo on as well, bright yellow logo in our our um slogan.
User Interface: Slogan, yeah.
Project Manager: Uh then you know they're gonna be fairly brightly coloured anyway, and we can have sort of a a a trimming as well, of the glow in the dark material, just as gimmickyness.
User Interface: Right. Mm-hmm.'Cause yeah, that w more than finding it, that was more like you know if you're watching a film in the dark, you can um still see the remote control.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Alright, so n sorta if if if we're gon if we're gonna go with the idea of um {vocalsound} uh of feedback, sort of remote finder, then that kinda stuffs that one out then.
User Interface: That was more of a a gimmick.
Project Manager: Do you think?
User Interface: Mm.
Project Manager: Uh it makes it fairly unnecessary then.
User Interface: Yeah, unnecessary. Yeah.
Project Manager: Okay. Um, okay so scratch that. Uh so we've got do we want to go with the T_F_T_ idea or the {disfmarker} is that far too expensive?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah we're getting a lot of features now, I I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well I mean I think I think the sort of find the finder things I mean it's uh I could probably write the circuit diagram for that myself.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well, I think a consideration too is that these uh remotes get abused a lot, you know they get thrown around,
User Interface: Mm.
Industrial Designer: there's a good chance the the T_F_T_ screen would break or uh get damaged.
Project Manager: Mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: They're pretty fragile.
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: So is that one of our definite requirements that they wa that it needs a T_F_T_ screen?
Project Manager: Um no, I mean {gap} that was going on ravs uh Raj's sort of um marketing research I guess. Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} So we'll stick with sort of programmability um for the buttons that we do have. Um. {gap} So that's sort of included in your sub-module kind of stuff, um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} you were finding out about teletext.
Marketing: Yeah.
Project Manager: If you could find out that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Totally, it takes cheap speech recognition, she {disfmarker} they wi
Project Manager: Um I think we're gonna scratch the speech recognition as a bit of a
Industrial Designer: Oh.
Project Manager: um expensive,
User Interface: Yeah you think so?
Industrial Designer: Oh no it's it's much cheaper than the T_F_T_, it's just a microphone and some some integrated circuits.
Project Manager: no? Oh right, okay.
Industrial Designer: And it'd it'd be a small vocabulary speech recognition system,
Project Manager: Is it not the circuits that cost {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh right, okay.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh well that kind of takes back the R_F_ {vocalsound} the R_F_ remote sort of idea as well.
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um. {vocalsound} Five minutes. Okay. Decisions. Uh, votes, let's vote. Who wants T_F_T_?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No-one does.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Excellent, so we'll go with speech recognition, yeah?
Industrial Designer: Okay.
Marketing: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, that's cool.
Project Manager: Um, speech recognition, limited buttons, organic design. And what else was I thinking of that I haven't written down and therefore fallen out my head,
User Interface: Um
Project Manager: programmability.
Marketing: Glow in dark.
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: if it's not too expensive s I think it's a good gimmick.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh o okay.
Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}
Project Manager: And also, integrating the, remember to integrate the logo and the s slogan. {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm.
Project Manager: Okay, so. Um can you put all these reports in the project documents folder if they're not already in there as well. So, it just helps me summarize them.
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.
Marketing: Here? Sure.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And um I'll put any {disfmarker} {gap} I'm I'm putting anything I do in there anyway, so uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And where is it sorry?
Project Manager: Uh pro uh project documents.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it should be when you save
Project Manager: On A_M_I_ scenario controller.
Industrial Designer: on your desktop, so it goes save as, or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh {gap}.
Marketing: Uh it is in shared documents?
Industrial Designer: And then uh hit that little folder up thing again.
Project Manager: Where am I?
Marketing: Projoct uh projector.
Industrial Designer: Again.
Project Manager: Project documents, yeah, it's on your desktop as well.
Industrial Designer: All the way to the top, yeah that's up to desktop. Right and then project documents.
User Interface: Okay, cool.
Marketing: Hmm. It is not giving anything.
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Shared documents.
Project Manager: And I will tr {gap} getting strings of um information, I'll try and forward any specific to anybody in particular, as soon as I get them now, rather than {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: I was about to sort of tell you about the changes before the meeting, and then the meeting turned up, so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Industrial Designer: Mm. Did you get my email? Okay.
Project Manager: I did {gap}. {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just making sure.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay.
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} What I thought as well about the material is um maybe not this kind of material, but maybe more like um this kind of rubbery material, it's a bit more bouncy, like you said they get chucked around a lot. Um, a bit more {vocalsound} durable and that can also be ergonomic
Project Manager: Okay.
User Interface: and it kind of feels a bit different from all the other remote controls.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yeah.
User Interface: The rubber rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: More sort of um flesh-like than plasticky sort of.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Industrial Designer: Wow.
Marketing: Um but we have to take care like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But we have to take care of our children also if they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} means if children catch hold of your or if they chew it it shouldn't be too harmful. So, whatever material we use it should be {disfmarker} yeah.
Project Manager: Oh no, ethics, {vocalsound} that's gonna cost us money. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} we have to safety point of view also, we have to take care.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, safety.
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Oh I think wi with the more organic shape of it it won't be as {disfmarker} it won't as have many sharp corners as that, so that's something good, um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: I dunno, I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could go comp yeah.
Project Manager: It sme {vocalsound} smells good for children. {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We could go completely out of the box and make the thing a big red ball foam ball.
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: And it's got the thing on the inside.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And there's no buttons at all, it's always on, and just yell at it, and it works.
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That sounds,
User Interface: That's a good idea.
Industrial Designer: And then ch children will love it. {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah it's gonna have to be it's gonna be have a big yellow foam ball, yeah, sorry.
User Interface: {vocalsound} Interesting.
Industrial Designer: Oh yellow, yellow ball. Right.
User Interface: Yeah, d with the colour, um does it have to be all yellow, do you know?
Project Manager: Please God no. Um. Well, I wouldn't th I mean,
User Interface: No.
Project Manager: my reaction to an all-yellow remote control wouldn't be anything other than horror, so I think just having it
User Interface: Yeah.
Marketing: Small logo with the like a small yellow strip or y yellow {gap} with the logo in it.
Project Manager: surrounding the logo.
User Interface: Having a little bit. Okay cool. Mm mm.
Project Manager: Yeah.
User Interface: Mm-hmm, okay.
Project Manager: And I'll see if I can argue with boss about putting the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Cool.
Project Manager: what was it? We put {vocalsound} we put fashion into {disfmarker} Whoops, it's not working. Can't believe I've forgotten it {gap}. We put the fashion in electronics. {vocalsound} I bet that'll catch on well.
User Interface: Oh yeah, that's a good one that. Yeah so.
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, any last
Marketing: Yeah.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Twelve thirty.
Project Manager: worries, queries? Okay.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S s {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm.
Project Manager: I know what you're thinking.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay then, lunchtime, yay.
Marketing: That's good.
Project Manager: Okay, that felt a bit more like a {disfmarker} something with order and and reason to it than the last one.
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is quite fun actually.
User Interface: Wow.
Industrial Designer: Mm.
User Interface: Has anybo oh.
Project Manager: I really don't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Has anybody pressed okay, it vibrates. It's pretty cool.
Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.
Industrial Designer: Yep.
Marketing: Check here.
Project Manager: Wow you've {gap} your first page.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I've been using up the pages.
Project Manager: I was just writing really big. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah, got small writing. I don't wanna waste it.
Project Manager: I've finished the meeting now.
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Another questionnaire.
Project Manager: Oh, everybody needs k questionnaire.
Marketing: {vocalsound} | According to the Project Manager, it was hard to have speech recognition in remotes and no products in the market now used this function well. There was mainly one reason: the noise interference problem, which was too expensive to solve. Luckily, the User Interface came up with an idea to have something built into the TV that people could press and then it would send out a little signal. The Industrial Designer agreed and proposed to have a microphone by the TV speaker and a transmitter there to send back to their remotes. Such design was subtractive cancellation of the noise. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about schools causing concern with questions from Irranca-Davies.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process--it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word'toolkit'--the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist,'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that'toolkit'gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Sian Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the--
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you--about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince--and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them--that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box,'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what--. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability--sometimes, the practitioners are like,'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.'And I think that's been a part of the constant--not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable--. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service--it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn--now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments--the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that--. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system--'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.'But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough--there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right--absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it--you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities'and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve--more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school--and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big,'We must do something'and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on--. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering--. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category--. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to--. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are--
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve--because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities--. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say,'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.'And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Sian, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Sian, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?'You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority--those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account--have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools--11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you--? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school--when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right--we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result--hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups--they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues--leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12,18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental--. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely--. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia--three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that--
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services--scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly--and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that--and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand--not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances--
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though,'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously--[Inaudible. ]--that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015--'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that--. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document--'The implementation of this model will change over time'-- is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service--is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures--you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at--things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think,'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government--. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data--I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly--? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because--. Exams are important--of course they are, qualifications are important--but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely--and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Sian, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some PS10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Sian. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children--not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | According to Kirsty, there were a variety of ways in which schools that needed support or needed to be challenged on their practice would be identified. Basically, they relied on the school categorization system. What's more, in Kirsty's opinion, the school improvement service was a risk-based approach. Luckily, the categorization system on which they depended would continue to evolve to align itself to the curriculum reform and make changes in self-evaluation. It would continue to evolve because it had to be consistent with their overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. What they needed now was a more strategic, longer term approach to reach changes in a school rather than some of the easy-to-fix items that made a school as if it was doing better. | qmsum |
How could the schools that are causing significant concern be identified?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process--it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word'toolkit'--the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist,'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that'toolkit'gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Sian Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the--
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you--about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince--and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them--that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box,'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what--. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability--sometimes, the practitioners are like,'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.'And I think that's been a part of the constant--not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable--. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service--it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn--now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments--the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that--. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system--'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.'But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough--there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right--absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it--you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities'and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve--more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school--and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big,'We must do something'and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on--. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering--. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category--. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to--. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are--
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve--because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities--. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say,'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.'And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Sian, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Sian, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?'You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority--those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account--have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools--11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you--? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school--when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right--we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result--hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups--they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues--leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12,18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental--. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely--. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia--three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that--
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services--scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly--and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that--and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand--not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances--
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though,'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously--[Inaudible. ]--that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015--'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that--. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document--'The implementation of this model will change over time'-- is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service--is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures--you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at--things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think,'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government--. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data--I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly--? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because--. Exams are important--of course they are, qualifications are important--but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely--and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Sian, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some PS10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Sian. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children--not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | According to Kirsty and Huw, the real question was how was it that they didn't identify those schools. Since these schools were not being identified early enough, there was a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Even though they had identified them as needing that extra help, they were not moving at pace away from that system. In Steve's opinion, the importance lied on" What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?" And it brought together what they knew from Estyn, but also, local authorities had knowledge of their schools, and so did consortia. They had got to be better at bringing those together. | qmsum |
What was a level that Kirsty would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process--it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word'toolkit'--the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist,'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that'toolkit'gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Sian Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the--
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you--about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince--and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them--that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box,'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what--. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability--sometimes, the practitioners are like,'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.'And I think that's been a part of the constant--not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable--. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service--it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn--now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments--the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that--. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system--'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.'But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough--there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right--absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it--you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities'and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve--more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school--and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big,'We must do something'and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on--. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering--. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category--. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to--. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are--
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve--because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities--. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say,'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.'And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Sian, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Sian, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?'You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority--those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account--have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools--11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you--? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school--when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right--we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result--hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups--they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues--leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12,18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental--. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely--. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia--three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that--
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services--scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly--and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that--and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand--not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances--
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though,'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously--[Inaudible. ]--that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015--'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that--. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document--'The implementation of this model will change over time'-- is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service--is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures--you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at--things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think,'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government--. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data--I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly--? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because--. Exams are important--of course they are, qualifications are important--but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely--and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Sian, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some PS10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Sian. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children--not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | According to Kirsty, school was going to need a little bit of extra support, so it was not always just a crisis that needed extra support. There were just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. However, it was also right that they had a particular challenge in the secondary sector. That's why they had introduced the new pilot to address those schools. If they carried on doing the same thing, they would keep getting the same results, which was not satisfying enough. | qmsum |
Why did they take Education through Regional Working as an example?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process--it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word'toolkit'--the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist,'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that'toolkit'gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Sian Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the--
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you--about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince--and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them--that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box,'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what--. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability--sometimes, the practitioners are like,'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.'And I think that's been a part of the constant--not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable--. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service--it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn--now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments--the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that--. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system--'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.'But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough--there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right--absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it--you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities'and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve--more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school--and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big,'We must do something'and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on--. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering--. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category--. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to--. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are--
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve--because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities--. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say,'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.'And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Sian, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Sian, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?'You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority--those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account--have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools--11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you--? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school--when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right--we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result--hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups--they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues--leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12,18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental--. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely--. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia--three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that--
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services--scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly--and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that--and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand--not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances--
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though,'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously--[Inaudible. ]--that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015--'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that--. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document--'The implementation of this model will change over time'-- is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service--is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures--you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at--things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think,'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government--. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data--I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly--? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because--. Exams are important--of course they are, qualifications are important--but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely--and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Sian, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some PS10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Sian. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children--not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | In Hefin's opinion, they took ERW as an example because it did things differently with regard to the four consortia. They were interested in the effectiveness of that organization to deliver for children and for teachers since ERW had got particular challenges. What they were seeing the national consortia do is developing a national approach to school improvement services. What's more, according to Hefin, the regional consortia were not a beast of the Government; they were a beast of the local authorities that had worked together to create a school improvement service that met their needs. | qmsum |
What's their opinion in intervening Neath Port Talbot and ERW about addressing the issue of safeguarding their schools?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process--it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word'toolkit'--the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist,'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that'toolkit'gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Sian Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the--
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you--about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince--and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them--that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box,'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what--. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability--sometimes, the practitioners are like,'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.'And I think that's been a part of the constant--not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable--. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service--it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn--now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments--the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that--. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system--'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.'But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough--there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right--absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it--you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities'and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve--more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school--and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big,'We must do something'and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on--. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering--. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category--. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to--. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are--
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve--because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities--. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say,'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.'And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Sian, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Sian, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?'You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority--those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account--have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools--11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you--? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school--when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right--we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result--hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups--they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues--leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12,18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental--. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely--. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia--three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that--
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services--scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly--and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that--and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand--not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances--
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though,'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously--[Inaudible. ]--that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015--'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that--. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document--'The implementation of this model will change over time'-- is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service--is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures--you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at--things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think,'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government--. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data--I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly--? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because--. Exams are important--of course they are, qualifications are important--but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely--and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Sian, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some PS10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Sian. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children--not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | Kirsty believed that it was really important for them to understand how Neath Port Talbot intended to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what was a critical time. They wanted to know from Neath Port Talbot how they were going to do that without being part of the organization. Additionally, Kirsty was curious about how they were going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who were receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot were not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision. | qmsum |
Summarize the discussion about actions towards the document in 2015-" National model for regional working" .
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process--it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word'toolkit'--the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist,'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that'toolkit'gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Sian Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the--
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you--about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince--and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them--that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box,'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what--. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability--sometimes, the practitioners are like,'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.'And I think that's been a part of the constant--not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable--. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service--it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn--now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments--the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that--. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system--'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.'But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough--there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right--absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it--you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities'and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve--more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school--and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big,'We must do something'and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on--. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering--. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category--. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to--. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are--
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve--because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities--. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say,'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.'And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Sian, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Sian, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?'You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority--those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account--have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools--11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you--? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school--when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right--we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result--hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups--they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues--leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12,18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental--. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely--. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia--three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that--
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services--scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly--and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that--and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand--not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances--
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though,'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously--[Inaudible. ]--that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015--'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that--. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document--'The implementation of this model will change over time'-- is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service--is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures--you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at--things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think,'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government--. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data--I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly--? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because--. Exams are important--of course they are, qualifications are important--but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely--and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Sian, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some PS10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Sian. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children--not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | According to Kirsty, it was the current model. Although they failed to persuade the local government to adopt a new national model, the local authorities had already seen the value in it. However, they were at the stage looking to a wholesale review of the national model. Now they were all focusing on the work of implementation. At the same time, they had the risk of losing focus because of the emphasis on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. | qmsum |
How do they come to conclusions about what was working if that was not presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process--it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word'toolkit'--the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist,'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that'toolkit'gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Sian Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the--
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you--about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince--and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them--that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box,'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what--. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability--sometimes, the practitioners are like,'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.'And I think that's been a part of the constant--not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable--. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service--it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn--now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments--the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that--. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system--'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.'But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough--there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right--absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it--you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities'and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve--more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school--and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big,'We must do something'and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on--. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering--. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category--. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to--. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are--
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve--because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities--. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say,'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.'And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Sian, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Sian, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?'You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority--those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account--have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools--11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you--? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school--when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right--we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result--hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups--they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues--leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12,18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental--. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely--. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia--three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that--
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services--scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly--and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that--and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand--not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances--
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though,'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously--[Inaudible. ]--that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015--'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that--. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document--'The implementation of this model will change over time'-- is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Sian.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service--is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures--you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at--things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think,'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government--. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data--I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly--? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because--. Exams are important--of course they are, qualifications are important--but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely--and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Sian, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some PS10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Sian. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children--not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | The real question was not about communicating the data, but about challenging people on how the data should be used. The data was still available, but it was a challenge to them about how to use the data. Sometimes, how they presented data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of the system. Therefore, it was about how they used the data. The focus shall be on the more intelligent use and interrogation of the data, and about truly what it was telling us about the system. | qmsum |