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OpenLLM France 147

[speaker001:] Ah, here he is. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] this morning?? [speaker001:] The quicker these kids get back to school. [speaker002:] Is it them that's causing it? [speaker001:] Oh. It's always the same. Always the same. Every [speaker002:] I'm just off for my my line Doctor. [speaker001:] ? [speaker002:] Aye.... Apart from that I feel great. I've stopped smoking now for four month. [speaker001:] Four months? Very good.... The very first spending stacks of money now,? [speaker002:] I've not got any now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Cos when you smoke you kept your money for your fags, but if you don't smoke you don't need to keep it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I thought you'd have been buying an oil well or something like that []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I know, I didn't realize,. My two brothers are off on holiday now for ten days. [speaker001:] Aye. There's a lot of folk given up, just in the past year. It's terrible. [speaker002:] I mean that that addicted to it, I was like a heroin addict, you know? [speaker001:] Oh aye. Oh aye, I. [speaker002:] and all these years they spend. You [speaker001:] I know. [speaker002:] you telling me to stop smoking for [speaker001:] That's right. That's right. [speaker002:] You see, they tell you to stop smoking [speaker001:] The day it happened the day you got this [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] heart attack, [snaps fingers] that was it. [speaker002:] Well what really set my mind was when I lost my sister and my brother. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Cathy and Hughie like, in two [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] months smoking. [speaker001:] That's right. That's right. I mean we we've got a friend and she used to smoke sixty a day, and she never even talked about stopping, till her pal, into hospital, a dif a bypass operation. And that was it. [speaker002:] Enough. [speaker001:] Tt! That was it. No chance. [speaker002:] I've been off for three or four time before for long a few years and [speaker001:] Aye. Och aye. I know but [speaker002:] back to it. [speaker001:] They go back to it, this is the thing. And it frightens me seeing the youngsters coming out carrying. [speaker002:] That's right. And, you know?. [speaker001:] A couple of youngsters yesterday, seven year old, eight year olds at the very most, they have one of these gas lighters, up round the back of the. It's so that nobody could see them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I know, you can't, you can't. [speaker001:] can't tell them. [speaker002:] tell mine. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right oh.

[speaker001:] Good morning. [Mary:] Good morning. [speaker001:] Well now, what were you doing? [Mary:] Ah. This pain in my back, [speaker001:] Is the dry rot getting further in do you think? [Mary:] It is. And it's coming down my shoulder to my hand. [speaker001:] Aargh. [Mary:] And erm my head's fuzzy you know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mary:] It's like bells in my ears. [cough] [speaker001:] Right. [Mary:] This catarrh, I don't know I think it's catarrh. [speaker001:] Aha. [Mary:] It's in there. [speaker001:] Spitting. [Mary:] And I get into kinks, coughing [speaker001:] Right. [Mary:] to get it up. [speaker001:] Right. [Mary:] And it makes me. Sometimes I cannot get the cough out. And I'm coughing like, it's coughing. You know like, is [speaker001:] Like the whoop? [Mary:] whooping cough? [speaker001:] Like the whooping cough?... Right. Now now. [Mary:] And erm I get a letter back, I'm getting the Attendance Allowance. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] Have not got it yet, but [speaker001:] Yeah. Och aye. So the, with this [Mary:] it's the only thing I've got. [speaker001:] with this changing the rules, about eighteen months ago, [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] they're giving away money. [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Can't can't get rid of it fast enough. Can't get rid of it fast enough. Now, let's get a wee listen to the back of this chest to see if you [Mary:] ? Are you going to take my blood pressure today? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] I haven't had it taken [speaker001:] Sure. [Mary:] for October, I think, when I was up at the hospital and it was down not I was below.... [speaker001:] Whoops! [speaker003:] Sod it! [Mary:] Not [speaker001:] Pressure is alright. [Mary:] Up in the hospital the girl [speaker001:] Ah. [Mary:] told me it was down. [speaker001:] Och, heat.... You don't want to listen to what these women tell you. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] .... [whispering] And that's []... a hundred and seventy, which is what you would expect for your age.... A hundred and seventy over eighty. [Mary:] Mm. [speaker001:] It can't be any better than that. Can't be any better than that. [Mary:] I thought that maybe what was making me feel a bit dizzy? [speaker001:] No. No. [Mary:] No? [speaker001:] No. No.... Not that. Not that, that's as near perfect as [Mary:] Also [speaker001:] most people get. It's near perfect, it makes no difference. N never been perfect [Mary:] Aye. [speaker001:] in your life, but you're nearly perfect [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] you're nearly perfect now. Right. Let's stop with this and this for you as well.... Now... I've given you er a tablet to take Mary, it's the, it's a one that they've used in fact down at the Pain Clinics, these special Pain [Mary:] At the what? [speaker001:] The Pain Clinic, at the, at the Monklands and at the Royal. [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Now, there's a stuff in it that'll help to dry up the catarrh as well. [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] You'll feel the inside of your mouth dry up. [Mary:] My mouth's awful dry and my lips and [speaker001:] Yes. That's right. Right. [Mary:] and I thought I'd [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mary:] I thought I knew, I knew with it I couldn't wear my bottom teeth all week because of the ulcers right beside near the bottom of my gum. [speaker001:] Right.... right. That's. [Mary:] Fed up with myself not being well. [speaker001:] Oh, you get yourself looking at yourself. Indeed. [Mary:] Mm. [speaker001:] Indeed you do. [LAUGHTER] You get fed up working at the cos you have no day in it []. [LAUGHTER] [Mary:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] But er, no, definitely not your blood pressure causing any problem [Mary:] That's good. [speaker001:] Mary, no.... [Mary:] No, cos I'm taking the faithfully. [speaker001:] Yes. Och aye, it's definitely nowt to do with that. Now what about? Are you using any of your? [Mary:] No. I've got, you gave me some last time and I'd got them the week before, so I've got enough. [speaker001:] So you've got enough in the house just now, Mary, [Mary:] I [speaker001:] right? [Mary:] I would like er a prescription [speaker001:] ? Aye. [Mary:] I've got the spare tablets but I mean getting the prescription. [speaker001:] Aye. Well as long as you've got enough to keep you going, that's that's [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] the main thing. But there's no terrible worries [Mary:] Hey? [speaker001:] no terrible worries. You're gonna live for a wee while yet. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you []. [speaker001:] Aye. [Mary:] My grandson asked me the other morning, when was I gonna die? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] Oh, I'll tell you, it doesn't make me feel good or []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] You should've told them [] [Mary:] Oh. [speaker001:] ten years on Friday. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ten years on Friday. Right Mary. [Mary:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now. [Mary:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] Come in.... [Carol:] Hello. [speaker001:] Hello.... Aye. What can we do for this lady? [Carol:] Er it's just to see if I could get a repeat prescription for the pill. [speaker001:] ? Mm. Which one is it? [Carol:] Er I think it's Marvelon [speaker001:] Marvelon Marvelon... No problems with [Carol:] No. [speaker001:] your taking it?... .... That's okay.... Mm. you to sign one of these crazy forms?... And erm I need to check your blood pressure Carol, and I'll get the girls to get one of these forms for you to fill in. [Carol:] Right. [speaker001:] Right, so go and do that. [Carol:] ... [speaker001:] you sit yourself you just sit down there.... [Carol:] What's the form for? [speaker001:] Oh, it's just a wee forms [Carol:] Is it? [speaker001:] for that's for the civil service to run around and play games with. [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Aye, that's what they're all for.... Yeah. Fine.. No problem. Just two, two seconds I'll get one of these forms.... Oh Hello. Hello monster.... Oops. Sorry! [speaker003:] Okay.... [speaker001:] Now.... that out the way. Too many pockets that's what the trouble is. If I get you to sign on that line there. [Carol:] Right. [speaker001:] Right Carol?... [Carol:] Anything else I have to? [speaker001:] No, that's all. [Carol:] Is that okay? [speaker001:] That's, that's lovely. Fine I'll fill in the rest. [Carol:] Right. Thank you. [speaker001:] Right. Okay Carol? Bye now.

[speaker001:] Good morning. [speaker002:] Good morning. [speaker001:] Now, what can I do for this lady this morning? [speaker002:] My gets thicker every time I come. [speaker001:] Ah you see, that's when you're over twenty one, that's what happens. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger all the. [speaker002:] it's Doctor that's treating me but she can't see me till Monday so [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] That's. A long wait. [speaker001:] Oh, that's nothing. That's nothing. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] Oh, it's getting, don't come in the school holidays. [speaker002:] Aha. How is it? [speaker001:] Cos it's pandemonium. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] It's er... full of, full of youngsters. [speaker002:] Not obeying you. Now just because of [speaker001:] What've you been doing? [speaker002:] Doctor gave me er I can't, I can hardly walk I've got a terrible sore back. [speaker001:] Your back been giving you trouble again? [speaker002:] Oh terrible. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] If I get up out a chair it's murder.... [speaker001:] Right. And you say the tablets [speaker002:] She gave me [speaker001:] have helped? [speaker002:] No. I've be I was using what do you call it? tablet but I'd something. [speaker001:] Aha. Not making much difference. [speaker002:] [sigh] No. [speaker001:] No. Right. Let's see if we can get you something to make life a bit easier for you.... [speaker002:] ... Would the ph physiotherapy help it at all? [speaker001:] It might. I was just thinking about that just now, whether [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] we should get you down there. [speaker002:] Cos it helped me the last time. [speaker001:] Was it the Monklands? You? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Was it the Monklands you were in, when you dislocated [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] it? [speaker002:] Monklands. [speaker001:] Wasn't it? [speaker002:] But I was at Strathclyde for physiotherapy the last time. [speaker001:] Yes. That's right. The [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I remember you were, you were in, you'd dislocated your hip, dislocated your hip, [speaker002:] Three times. [speaker001:] twice. Three times was it? Three times. Good. Mm. Still on Road? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Still on Road? [speaker002:] I'm a wee bit [speaker001:] Six [speaker002:] I'm a wee bit deaf. [speaker001:] Six. [speaker002:] A wee bit. I've been a bit dull of hearing and I haven't got my hearing aid in. [speaker001:] [whispering] Road [].... Now, I'll write over and we'll get you back, get you some physiotherapy Mrs. Right? [speaker002:] I think that would help. Mm. Aye. [speaker001:] Fine. Er this is a painkiller. There's nothing else there [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] except pure and simply a painkiller [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] to let you get moving about a bit easier. [speaker002:] Aye. Okay. [speaker001:] Okay. And you'll get word about the physiotherapy. [speaker002:] That's fine. Aye. Aye. [LAUGHTER] How are you keeping yourself? [speaker001:] Fine. [speaker002:] Aye, you're looking great. [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] There we are now.... Now y you get started on that, you'll get a postcard to the house [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] to go back and get some physiotherapy. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] We'll get, get you fit again. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Okay []. [speaker001:] Get you fit for the dancing. [speaker002:] . And the [speaker001:] Oh the bone. [speaker002:] but I don't think I'm ready yet. [speaker001:] Oh, I don't think you're ready for that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Aye. [speaker001:] before the end of the season we'll have you back. [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay Mrs. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now. [speaker002:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] Yes sir, what can I do for you? [Steven:] I was er I woke up Monday morning right, and I had that and the Monklands on Tuesday, right? Because, and they told m he t he told me to come and see [speaker001:] Aye. [Steven:] my doctor in a couple of days to see how it was. [speaker001:] Ah, that's not ready for opening yet, Steven. Did they give you any antibiotics? [Steven:] . Aye, he gave me, he gave me some tablets I don't know whether [speaker001:] What, what sort of stuff did they give you? [Steven:] I don't know the name of actually. [speaker001:] That's it. Erm [Steven:] It was a wee capsule, brown capsule. [speaker001:] What brown? Brown and brown and white? [Steven:] Aye I think it was.... Ah, is it, is that penicillin? [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah. There's a form penicillin in that. What sometimes happens you s it sometimes comes up to a wee yellow head. [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] And when it does that, you can put a needle in there and just all the stuff comes out all the yellow stuff that's underneath. How many of the er wee capsules have you got left Steven? [Steven:] Oh, maybe about half the [speaker001:] About half the amount? [Steven:] Aye. About maybe about half. [speaker001:] Right. [Steven:] take [speaker001:] See you do. [Steven:] Is it four? Or three a day or four a day. [speaker001:] Three or four a day. four. Er I would keep on with those right till they're finished and then come up towards the end of next week. Let's have a look at it again. [Steven:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It might be ready for opening, or it might just have dissolved away itself. [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] Sometimes it dissolves away itself. But occasionally that one it's sort of in between, it could come out [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] to the surface. Get a needle and. [Steven:] Or it may dissolve away itself? [speaker001:] Yeah. Or it might disappear itself, but don't put, don't go putting bandages on it. Don't put leave it alone. And it will go either it will come up to the surface itself or it'll just disappear. [Steven:] Mm. [speaker001:] It depen it depends on your own system but [Steven:] it's come up a wee bit. [speaker001:] Aye and what happens is, it usually starts in at the corner of your finger [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] and then it spreads down towards your knuckle. [Steven:] Aye, well, that's [speaker001:] That's [Steven:] what's happening. [speaker001:] It sometimes goes the, the colour as it, as it starts to heal up the, colour gets a wee bit lighter [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] and ste starts to spread down towards your next knuckle. [Steven:] Mm. [speaker001:] That's okay. No terrible worry about that Steven. [Steven:] Right. [speaker001:] That's okay. [Steven:] And er [speaker001:] That's fine.. [Steven:] . See I've been getting a kind of rash on my face [speaker001:] Mhm. Right. [Steven:] even see it now, there. [speaker001:] Yeah. You can see it quite clearly. And you're [Steven:] Can you? [speaker001:] getting it on your forehead [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] as well. [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] . Aye. [Steven:] see like, see like some kind of spots for the past few [speaker001:] Yeah. [Steven:] months and it's it's annoying me. [speaker001:] Right. [Steven:] I mean I got that one, see it? [speaker001:] Yes. Aye. [Steven:] And it's gone away yet, I mean that's been there about three we about three weeks. [speaker001:] [whispering] Right [].... Now, once you've, once you've finished this penicillin stuff the hospital have given you, [Steven:] Mm. [speaker001:] I want you to go onto this. It's a tablet that you take, one in the morning and one before you go to bed at night. [Steven:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And that's for your er for your skin. And that'll give it a good help.. [Steven:] So am I to take that with [speaker001:] Not while you're [Steven:] the penicillin? [speaker001:] not while you're taking the penicillin. [Steven:] Just finish the penicillin first? [speaker001:] Finish your penicillin first Steven and then [Steven:] Mm. Take that. [speaker001:] and then start on this stuff. [Steven:] Is that for my skin? [speaker001:] This is for your skin. [Steven:] Right. Ah cos th m people won't my skin about. [speaker001:] [whispering] Aye. That's rubbish []. [Steven:] You know what I mean? [speaker001:] [whispering] That's rubbish. Don't listen to half of what they say []. [Steven:] [LAUGHTER]... And my, my granddad was telling me to see my eyes. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Steven:] Mm. Eyes. Now I know I went to a sp a specialist and that I mean it just keeps on coming back you know, maybe I'll [speaker001:] That's right. Aye. [Steven:] just have to keep on. [speaker001:] Aye. No. That's part of the skin problem as well. [Steven:] Is it? [speaker001:] Aye. That's part of the skin problem. [Steven:] Is it really? [speaker001:] Once you get started on this [Steven:] It should? [speaker001:] it'll die away as well. [Steven:] Oh, that's good cos. [speaker001:] No problem. No terrible problem there, Steven. But don't mix these with your penicillin. [Steven:] Right. [speaker001:] Finish your penicillin first and then and then go [Steven:] penicillin first. [speaker001:] on to that. [Steven:] Right. [speaker001:] And that'll get it sorted and come back up [Steven:] Aye I'll I'll put appointment just in case you know [speaker001:] Mhm. [Steven:] what I mean? [speaker001:] Yes. [Steven:] For next week. [speaker001:] Aye. ev even with your skin. I mean don't be frightened to come back and see us about that [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] because it can last for anything up to six months. This spots [Steven:] Aye. [speaker001:] on your skin. So I mean [Steven:] Aha. [speaker001:] y you might need a wee these tablets [Steven:] Again. [speaker001:] maybe two or three times again. And if you do, don't be frightened to come back. [Steven:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay, Steven. [Steven:] No bother. [speaker001:] Right. We'll see how things are doing next week. [Steven:] Right. [speaker001:] Right. [Steven:] Thanks Doctor. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now. [Steven:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] Doctor, do you want to see Thomas again? There is, they're all [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] of. Erm [speaker002:] [whispering] Thomas. Thomas []. [speaker001:] Some of them er [speaker002:] Oh, yes. Right. [speaker001:] there's a few times so I'll give you that four. Is that? D do you want to see him again? [speaker002:] Aye. That's fine. [speaker001:] Right. Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah.

[speaker001:] Thank you.... Hello. What can we do for you today? [Alison:] Er well, I've had a sore throat. It's about three weeks now. The er not a sore throat th you know, it's there for a couple of days and then it kind of eases off, I think it's getting better and then the next day it's as bad as ever. [speaker001:] As bad as ever. [Alison:] This morning I can kind of feel it, but last night it was as if I was when I swallowed there was a big lump. [speaker001:] Like a lump at the back? [Alison:] Erm [speaker001:] Mm.. Stick your tongue out. Oh, aye, a way down, see just in through there? [Alison:] Aha. [speaker001:] Down the sides there, not up beside your tonsils. It's a way down the back. [Alison:] Right. [speaker001:] And see that wee thing that hangs down the back? That's what [Alison:] Aha. [speaker001:] And it's rubbing up against your tongue. [Alison:] Aye. [speaker001:] That's what you're feeling. [Alison:] But I didn't feel it as bad this morning [speaker001:] No. That's right. Oh no. Aye.. [Alison:] up here and I, I've been keeping putting it off and putting it off. [speaker001:] It, it comes back into it, some, some nights it's quite good and then other nights it feels all [Alison:] Aye. It's [speaker001:] dry and it feels like [Alison:] Ah, aye, I'm not [speaker001:] in the morning. [Alison:] I've a right cough as well and a tickle and [speaker001:] That's. [Alison:] what I'm bringing up. It's [speaker001:] Aye. [Alison:] filthy. [speaker001:] You have trouble with your sinuses at all? [Alison:] Erm aye, I can do. [speaker001:] Choke. Kind of choke down [Alison:] Kind of choke down. [speaker001:] again. It might well be coming [Alison:] I've [speaker001:] from there. [Alison:] See I've had a couple of colds the past few months and then you think, well that's me, I'm getting better. And then the next morning I'm up I feel as I was going to take it again. [speaker001:] It feels all choked up again. [Alison:] Aye. [speaker001:] Right. Er it sounds as though it might well be stuck in your sinuses here and this stuff's running down the back [Alison:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and ca la landing in the back of your throat here. Er you're what,? [Alison:] Aye. Three.... [speaker001:] Now, I've given you some antibiotics. They're to take during the day. And I've given you special stuff for nighttime to keep the back of your throat clear at night. Because that's half the battle if you can keep [Alison:] nights, I didn't have a decent night's sleep just for the tickle you know, the. [speaker001:] That's right, the continual it's this continual stuff running down the back that goes for it.... Mhm.... Oops! [whispering] []... There we are. Right, [Alison:] Thanks Doctor. [speaker001:] Mrs. [Alison:] I wonder if I could show you a mole? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Alison:] I've got, I feel as if it's getting and I don't know if it's erm to be I've had it for years and never bothered. [speaker001:] Aye, I know but they change. Let's look.... Yeah. It's starting to get black at one side alright [Alison:] You see I cannot not see it [speaker001:] No. [Alison:] but I just felt it [speaker001:] Right. [Alison:] something's up. I'm not scratching it because I can't scratch it but [speaker001:] No. [Alison:] I'm worried about it. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well I think you better get this seen to. It's, there's a tiny wee corner at the top there where the colour's changing. [Alison:] Is it? [speaker001:] And there's another wee bit there. Aye. Get it off. [Alison:] Right. [speaker001:] Get it off. [whispering] []... [Alison:] [cough]... I've been going to come up about it and g [speaker001:] Aye. It's, och aye, it's one of these things. [Alison:] Do you think it I've had it for all this time, I hope. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well it wouldn't make any difference. Now, all I need for you to go and see the skin specialist and [whistling] get it in the bucket and then there's [Alison:] Right. [speaker001:] no worry about it. [Alison:] Okay then. [speaker001:] Right. Okay Alison. [Alison:] Thanks a lot. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now. [Alison:] Bye. Are you alright yourself? [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. It's no [LAUGHTER] no problem []. [Alison:] [LAUGHTER] it's just typical isn't it []? [speaker001:] That's it. [Alison:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right. [Alison:] Thanks. [speaker001:] Cheerio now. [Alison:] Cheerio. [end of consultation]... [speaker001:] [recording a memo] Letter to District Hospital, thirty two. Dear Doctor, this woman has a mole on her right upper arm. She tells me that this has recently become quite itchy, and when there appear to be one or two areas that have er become discoloured darker than, than the main part of the mole. I appointment to removal and would be grateful for your advice. Yours sincerely. And could you mark that one very urgent, please.

[speaker001:] Come in. Good morning. [William:] Hello Doctor. [speaker001:] Now stranger, what can we do for you this morning? [William:] a long time. A number of years. [speaker001:] Aye, it's a long number of years. You've got spots. [William:] Mhm. I was told it was chicken pox, but I haven't [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] been to a doctor. [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] I've had this for over a fortnight.... [speaker001:] Did it just come on all of a sudden? [William:] I think what happened it started on my legs, here. Right?... [speaker001:] [whispering] Oh deary me [].... [William:] Now for a while, before I went to, I went to. [speaker001:] That's turned into. Right. It's okay. we'll get that cleared for you. [William:] I thought it was [speaker001:] Yeah. [William:] like that. [speaker001:] No. Four or five days and it should all be starting to [William:] I hope it's not turning. [speaker001:] A germ, there's a germ that floats about in the air and if it gets onto the skin when it's broken. It [William:] Was it? Was it originally [speaker001:] . Well it looks as though it could well have been [William:] originally chicken pox? [speaker001:] like chicken pox. Yeah. But that's all it takes, it's just the skin to get broken, and underneath the skin and it just spreads and it's [William:] And you haven't seen my arms. [speaker001:] Same. Alright. Okay. [William:] My arms are really bad. [speaker001:] Let's get that sorted for you. [William:] it was chicken pox and I'm saying to myself it's very infectious. What about, is that infectious? [speaker001:] Yes. That's contagious as well. [William:] And the funny thing was I've [speaker001:] Mm. [William:] only been off my work for about er seven days. I was at my work for a couple of days, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] when this started. [speaker001:] Yeah. [William:] So I must have passed it on. [speaker001:] Aye. Impetigo isn't nearly as easy to pass on as chicken pox. In fact it's, it's really You have to be living in the same house as somebody who's [William:] I was ask asking myself. [speaker001:] Aye. You, you've got to be using that same towels, you know, that sort of thing. [William:] Aha. [speaker001:] You know, actually,mo all more or less direct contact [William:] Aha. [speaker001:] before you can pick it up. [William:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So there's no terrible worry in that way, that you've passed on to anybody. And that, I wouldn't worry about that. [William:] get that thing? [speaker001:] Ah, you could get it anywhere, I mean even, see the likes of that, that wee cut in the back of my hand? [William:] Aha. [speaker001:] Well it could start off in that. Just [snaps fingers] just. [William:] See I always wondered because er... it seemed awfully slow in spreading it, it was there [speaker001:] that's right. [William:] and a couple of days with nothing happening I'm saying, well, at least it's started clearing up, but then [speaker001:] And then it moved somewhere else. [William:] it moved somewhere else and I'm saying I'm looking at it [speaker001:] That's right. [William:] the only place I've not got it is my abdomen and my chest. [speaker001:] Right down the front. [William:] It had nowhere to go. [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] And it started on my back quite a bit, three of four days ago, well it's not just as bad but my arms are real bad. [speaker001:] Right. Let's see if we can get you turned into a human being.... [William:] Oh dear, and I'm saying to myself it was chicken pox [speaker001:] Aye, but [William:] I don't think I've heard of that impetigo Doctor to be honest. [speaker001:] Yeah. it's years and. It used to be quite a common thing. [William:] Yes. Correct. Aye, I remember. [speaker001:] Ah, but it's y you still see it, I mean we still see it about once or twice every week. [William:] Mhm. [speaker001:] But I mean it used to be every day [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] we used to see it. [William:] So, it all cleared up okay? It won't [speaker001:] Yes. Och aye. [William:] leave a lot of marks? No? Well, I suppose it. [speaker001:] hopefully not. No. No. No. Now not nowadays, not with the, not with the stuff we get nowadays.... [William:] [cough] [speaker001:] Now. Now. Now. [William:] And what I've noticed is I've seen my bed linen. It's been weeping at night when I'm sleeping. [speaker001:] That's right. That's right. In your sleep. That's right. [William:] most of this is drying up but the skull must get It seems to [speaker001:] Right. [William:] weep. [speaker001:] That's right. When the skin when we ju move around in the bed, the skin cracks open [William:] Oh that's it, it's all cracking here. [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And the same with the crusty bits [William:] Oh aye. [speaker001:] , when you move around at night it's the crust cracks open [William:] Mm. [speaker001:] as well and you get this weepy, sticky [William:] Aha. [speaker001:] yucky er yellowy green [William:] That's correct. Aye. [speaker001:] coming out. That's right, isn't it? That's it. That's er here you are young William and that should get rid of that for you no bother at all. [William:] Right and er [speaker001:] two things, you've got a special stuff for during the day and a different stuff for bedtime. [William:] Aha. I is it is it oral? Or what is it er? [speaker001:] Tablets. [William:] Both of them's tablets? [speaker001:] Both tablets. Both tablets to take. [William:] Aha. [speaker001:] And that'll get rid of that for you. [William:] So I can get in? What about work? [speaker001:] An anything. [William:] I can go to work? [speaker001:] Yeah. [William:] I feel a bit, I feel a bit embarrassed. [speaker001:] Aye. The only thing about work is are you working with oil? [William:] I do work with oil, aye. [speaker001:] Ah well, no chance. No chance cos that [William:] I'm working on Thursday so I'm [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] but I work with turbines and it's [speaker001:] Aye. No. It's for your own sake, because the o if the oil gets underneath the skin it can irritate your skin. [William:] Aha. [speaker001:] So you're better er out the way of that for a week [William:] ? [speaker001:] or so. Yeah.... [William:] How are you keeping yourself, Doctor? [speaker001:] Me? Fine. [William:] Oh, good. [speaker001:] . Don't have much choice. [William:] I would say I've been pretty lucky recently myself. [speaker001:] Oh, that's a good way to be. It's a good time to be a stranger in here. [William:] a bit guilty, you know? [speaker001:] Right. See if we can keep it that way for another twenty years. [William:] Aha. Right. Thanks Doctor. [speaker001:] Okay. [William:] Right. Much obliged. So, what will I gi [speaker001:] things right now. [William:] give it another week? [speaker001:] Give it a week, oh, within the week it should be a big lot better. [William:] So that'll be the following [speaker001:] . Let's say a week on Monday. [William:] Back to work a week [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] Monday. [speaker001:] A week Monday. [William:] Great. [speaker001:] . Aye. [William:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Okay. Right, Bill. Right? Look after yourself [William:] Bye now. [speaker001:] now. Bye. [William:] Thank you.

[speaker001:] Come in. [speaker002:] Doctor, as you're finished would you mind seeing the next? [speaker001:] No problem. [speaker002:] Thank you. Esther. She's supposed to have Tamazepan and Frumil is it okay for her to take these?... [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] So you've just changed them? [speaker001:] . Aye. Fine. Eh? [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Yeah, she's alright. She won't die with those. [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker001:] Oh,

[speaker001:] That's ideal. Ah, there's a top on it. [speaker002:] That's alright. It's just a top. Merely a top.. Yes. Have we [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] met? Get, get your thieving hands out of there. Oh dear. [speaker001:] I'm up with Daniel again. [speaker002:] Daniel. What have you been doing to Daniel? [speaker001:] I was up last week and Doctor gave him, gave him an antibiotic erm he had [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] really bad cold, but he's still got a cough and he's not getting rid of it. I've been up [speaker002:] What are they doing to you? [speaker001:] for two nights with him. [speaker002:] What's he doing to you? [speaker001:] He's really er [speaker002:] Was he bad to you? [speaker001:] I feel maybe it's gone to his chest. [speaker002:] problem with catarrh. Haven't you? You're full of catarrh. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [whispering] []. his nose, his eyes, his chest, all. [speaker002:] his sinus and stop everything else. Was this sort of fluey thing he had last week? [speaker001:] Er, aye erm [speaker002:] a sort of fluey thing. [speaker001:] But he never er he never had a cough or anything [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] but [speaker002:] Aye. That's his [speaker001:] the antibiotics finished. [speaker002:] Let's have a listen to you and see what you're doing to your poor old self. He's a tickly boy today. Are you tickly? Are you tickly? [speaker001:] during the day, it's at night. [speaker002:] Aye. When he when he lies down. [speaker001:] Aye. It [speaker002:] It stops [Daniel:] Mummy, I've got the. [speaker001:] Mhm. [whispering] [] [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Yeah. And he's actually er Doctor er referred [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] to be tested for asthma. Because [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] since he's been born he's saying he's said got five chest infections. [speaker002:] Aye that's, I think's he got a lot of sinus trouble, I think that's his problem. And the wee thing's and I don't think you'd get a bit sinus in the wee. [whispering] []. Haven't you? Here? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. [speaker001:] laugh, to annoy you. [speaker002:] Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. Right. Let's get you sorted Daniel. So now? [speaker001:] Well he's erm eight months now. [speaker002:] Eight months. [speaker001:] Eight months. [speaker002:] Well, we'll give you a wee bit of that nice medicine, or, nasty medicine. [speaker001:] Nice medicine eh? [speaker002:] What do you think? [speaker001:] Nice medicine. [speaker002:] What do you think? Nice medicine? [speaker001:] ... But he's never been out the, he was born like this.. Attaboy..... medicine should I [speaker002:] Now [speaker001:] give to him. [speaker002:] Ahem. Get him out in the fresh air as much as you can cos [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] this is a good time as well. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [humming] Mm. [speaker001:] And, and did but I don't know whether to take him on holiday Doctor. We used to go on holiday at this time but I think maybe the sun will do him a world of good. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes. Take him away on holiday. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Take you away on holiday. We'll take you away.? that. [speaker001:] . Right. [speaker002:] Get you it. [speaker001:] Thanks. [speaker002:] Okay. Right, Mrs. Right. Bye bye. Bye. You come back and see Thomas another day. Right.

[Sue:] so doesn't matter. Yeah you've met, have, am I the last? [Keith:] Well I wouldn't say you're the last [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] but I have actually seen all of the others. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] Erm I've seen Deborah, Ray and Cynthia. Erm so yes in a sense. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] Erm i the discussions have been interesting. What I did was prepare a supplementary form to the one that we had at the management team meeting [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] which lists the activities erm that we'd referred to before, on the original note [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] and adds a few. And I have with each of the other discussions added other [Sue:] Yes [Keith:] points. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] So I've got a number, I mean I started with, had had about fifteen, we've now got about ninety six. [Sue:] Ooh! [Keith:] Erm they'll probably all common off quite a bit. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] All I'm gonna do after this is reproduce the list with all of the points that each person has agreed. I'm not saying to you or any of the others, no I don't agree with that as a, that's for our debate later. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] This is the list. And I'll look and see what ways we can collect the data erm to provide the er the intelligence if you like. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] And then we'll have the debate. But at the [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] moment it looks to me as though s if we do a spreadsheet it'll be something like eight foot six [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] [LAUGHTER] long []. But we'll only really worry about the last page if you [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] like, the last three or four columns. [Sue:] But as you say it may well be that erm we can look at it and say well really that factor compensates for that one, [Keith:] Yes. [Sue:] in which case we can disregard because it [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] But obviously that'll take a little bit of time through discussion won't it? [Keith:] Yes it will, yeah. I'm not sure how happy we will be able to that but we don't, we obviously have to try. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm now. What I'd like to do, Yeah. [Sue:] is I'll just run through the additional points and these on the list which have been raised by the others, and Right. [Keith:] if you want to comment on any of those while we're going through, or perhaps cross them off your list. And then we'll go through your list. So you'll know what the others have already said [Sue:] Okay. [Keith:] and then you can present yours. Erm [Sue:] Well I wouldn't er I don't expect most things will completely but anyway we'll see. Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah, probably yes. Er I mean I've... the number of part time centres [Sue:] Do you want this back? [Keith:] No you can comment on that [Sue:] No right, okay. [Keith:] if you would Sue. And then just put on the top. Erm number of part time centres, half day sessions, [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] the uniform agreement is that they should be graded up point seven five of a day. [Sue:] Yes, fair comment. [Keith:] Wh which seems to me perfectly fair. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] And to be honest I wouldn't have argued if anyone had said whole day. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] You know cos it [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] it varies a bit. Erm [reading] the number of further education colleges in the division [Sue:] Mhm. [Keith:] would include satellites [] like erm [Sue:] Northallerton. [Keith:] Askham Bryan [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] in the south, [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] Yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] In the north it would include Northallerton Grammar School and the Y C A P annexe. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm and I mean perhaps Bedale Agricultural, but I mean that, that's [Sue:] Mhm. [Keith:] erm they had a number of F E students seen in the last year. Yeah? That's full time and part time. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] Age seventeen to nineteen. [Sue:] Do you want me to comment on that as we go through or [Keith:] No if you [Sue:] Right you're just explaining it to me? [Keith:] You could if want to. Yeah. If you want to add things then we can yeah. [Sue:] Okay and then we'll, we'll go back on to it okay. [Keith:] Erm the number of full F F E students seventeen to nineteen erm full time and part time erm, there are [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] in a division. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah? So that's you know greater percentages than those you've actually seen, that's hundred percent and what you've seen is whatever it is. [Sue:] Right so you [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] that's actually an additional one that you've put in? [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Cos you'd raised that point. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. Erm the number of sixth form colleges in a division, as a separate institution. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] Yeah. I mean not everybody's got them. Number of sixth form students erm seen in the last year. Yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] I've got a scribble behind it, oh annual report I'd get that from. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] And the total number of sixth form students in a division. [Sue:] Sixth form students in a division. Right. [Keith:] Number of special schools in a division. [Sue:] Mhm. [Keith:] And the number of special schools' students and pupils, pupils seen, in years ten upwards. Yeah? [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] I'm not saying, in here, we also want a column of the total number of special needs [Sue:] No. [Keith:] pupils, cos we see them all. I mean if we don't we only gonna miss one or two. [Sue:] Yeah, this is a complicated one isn't it? Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. Now these, this next band, the annual mileage ones, the sickness, and the form seven projections for the next three years, that data will come from Alan. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. Erm and this is going to be the area of horse trading I think. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Er I mean your point about how, how much time is spent in travelling a small number of miles in York. [Sue:] Mm mm. [Keith:] Ray made the same argument for Scarborough, because [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] says the whole of the [LAUGHTER] eastern division because it's all a hol [] and it's [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] got the longest season etcetera. This where [Sue:] Mm mm mm. [Keith:] we're going to get some debate. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm and [Sue:] We well how [Keith:] Mm? [Sue:] has the sickness come about Keith, because I mean [Keith:] Well because if, if we got, if we say you've got a certain number of members of staff, and each full time equivalent offers you two hundred and twenty two point eight working days a year. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Well if the sickness rate in one division [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] is significantly higher [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] than it is in another, pro rata [Sue:] Morale is presumably lower. [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Well there may, well yes possibly, or they may have a much higher morale because they've got a much more benevolent [LAUGHTER] management style []. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Yes, and have more days off. [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, yeah []. I mean it came about because, and I won't name names, one member of staff for example has had an astonishing amount of time [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] off sick. And in some organizations they would not be working for us any more [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] or they'd have been in a different position [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] where sickness wasn't a such a crucial issue. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm and I mean I've had a recent bereavement, I mean I, I lost my mum at Christmas and got three days leave. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] This person's had to three and a half weeks. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] And not from bereavement but because of the, the consequence of the traumatic shock of their eighty eight year old father passing away. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm it's not fair on that division. [Sue:] No. [Keith:] So if we notice [Sue:] Ah. [Keith:] significant [Sue:] Right okay, I mean it [Keith:] differences. [Sue:] erm it's a case of whether I, I would've expected that, that an analysis of that over a significant period of time w would even out, really. [Keith:] It might, but if say we said over a year, and we said there're a total number of fifteen members of staff, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] yeah? And the average time off l fifteen members of staff is fifteen times two hundred and twenty two [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] point eight. What percentage of sickness has that [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] total number got? I mean see whether there, the sickness loss as a percentage of your total of staff time is very different in one [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] division to another [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] over year but I mean in theory [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] you could go back over [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] several years. [Sue:] But it really is no indication as to whether that's likely to be the case in the future isn't it? [Keith:] No, not as raw data but yo you then go to use it as intelligence, I E [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] go back and look at, so like this division was [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] five times more sick leave than any of the others. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Was it all concentrated in one person? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Or all across, if it's all across the, the division then that's a major problem of organization or something. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] But if it's a single member of staff, it's a, it's only a difficulty isn't it? You can [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] solve it [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] theoretically tomorrow. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] But I mean I didn't want to exclude anything anybody's referred. We'll debate it when we're all together. And obviously if one person's [Sue:] I think it [Keith:] got more sick time than another they're [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] going to be more keen on that area of debate than, than their colleagues. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah? [Sue:] I, I, I find it a bit illogical [Keith:] Well [Sue:] I mean I found it almost as ridiculous as trying to sort of say, well half of my clerical staff are fairly incompetent so [LAUGHTER] I think we should have a sort of incompetency rating for each of [] [Keith:] Yeah, fine but if, yeah but what we've got is hard data for every single member of staff and therefore every group of staff [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] on sickness rates [Sue:] On sickness and we haven't on [Keith:] and we haven't got a measure for incompetence but there's [Sue:] No. [Keith:] a reason why we couldn't have is there? You could [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] No [Keith:] award everybody on appraisal process [Sue:] that's right you could. [Keith:] A hundred percent is efficient erm [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] and eighty five percent is less. [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] So you could add up all your members of staff and see what your efficiency rating [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] was. Er you know er [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Anyway [Keith:] I'm I'm interested in making this job [LAUGHTER] last as long as possible but I don't think I want to go to retirement. [] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Erm Ray raised an interesting point, loading for management time, for example Ray would argue that he spends a disproportionate amount of time travelling to meetings, more than any of the other members [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] of the management team. Yeah? You might wish to counter that because it takes you longer to go a smaller distance. [Sue:] Well it d certainly does [Keith:] Right the of the reason is in [Sue:] yeah. [Keith:] once you include that it, because the more he's out of the office the more Sheila has to cover for him. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Therefore instead of perhaps her being fifty percent case load, perhaps she [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] should be thirty. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Or whatever. Yeah? So it's a drain on, on the time, not just his but the knock-on effect. Ray's also introduced a holiday traffic for the Scarborough and the whole division [Sue:] Mhm. [Keith:] to counter your busy York. Erm the number of independent schools in a division. The number of independent schools serviced in a division. Yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] I mean servicing a school regardless of how many people there are is no no but it [Sue:] Yes so it's not, that's not on here is it? Right. [Keith:] will be when I've written [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] them all out. Erm number of independent pupils, erm aged eleven to eighteen, in a, in a division, [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] and the numbers seen. Yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm Ray's raised another point, it's about for example the further education network links that he has to service, the five N Y B E C groups he has to service, erm collating work experience on the database. Now my knowledge of that database is nobody [LAUGHTER] should be spending any time doing anything with that, cos nobody's ever said it works []. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Erm the number of, in terms of work experience there's a, how many schools involved, how many placements do you actually help find or, or whatever. How many placement providers are there, that the careers service is actively involved in working with. It's going to be diffi [Sue:] On work experience? [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] Because there's a wide variety of schemes operating across the county. I mean Trident is one and that has a certain effect. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Erm I don't know but there may well be activities for the divisional staff outside Trident, related to work [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] experience. I mean you know Trident doesn't do it all. [Sue:] No th there [Keith:] So [Sue:] is an impact, it isn't major other than on me. [Keith:] Yeah, right, well that's fair enough then, too bad. [Sue:] And it's the bane [LAUGHTER] of my life []. [Keith:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I I can't, I can't understand why we're involved in it in the way we are. Erm [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Y T providers. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm [reading] Y T providers linked to the division, actively []. [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] Yeah? So [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] they might be out of the divisional area but you, they might just as well be for the amount of you're spending on them. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Yeah? Y T providers associations serviced, the numbers of Y, on Y T, erm numbers of applications for training per division. [Sue:] Yes, I'm particularly keen on that one myself [Keith:] Yeah. Erm yes Deborah raised that one particularly erm so this is Deborah's list now. Erm how many F E students there are with special needs. [Sue:] Yes, another one I'm very keen on. [Keith:] Yeah. Erm a point about the C L, as I E how much time does any, each of the divisions have of C L A time. Yeah? Erm obviously got our eyes on Jackie. [LAUGHTER] Erm the ratio of clerical staff to management and the amount of time managers spend on central management activities. Yeah, so how much time [Sue:] Hang on. [Keith:] are you away from your division [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] because you're involved in county-wide or national things. [Sue:] County-wide things, yeah. [Keith:] And also how much clerical time is used up for non consumer activities in a division, like supporting those things you go off to London and [Sue:] Right, yes. [Keith:] Brighton and Bristol and Birmingham [Sue:] Right yes. [Keith:] to do. Mm? [Sue:] Yes yeah. [Keith:] Erm mileage per school, linked to sessions. Erm so how much time are you spending just going to the school? Now we can't get that from Alan's data because [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] he hasn't broken down the mileage into how it's assigned. But if we get, we, it seemed to me I mean Deborah raised it and I think there is a way of doing it, which would be for example erm looking at the agreements, how many schools have got agreements? How many visits are planned in the agreement? [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Yeah? And each visit is a session whether it's a day or half a day or twenty [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] minutes and there's a mileage from the standard mileage list for that. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] But again it's, it's another one of these things that makes it really complicated. [Sue:] It does. [Keith:] There's a lot more work to get it, we'll have to decide what [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] we want to exclude. [Sue:] But yeah, I mean on something like that there's a potential for getting erm b benefits out of bad management as well. In that you know if you're [Keith:] Too right. [Sue:] allowing careers officers to do t to call in at schools on a regular basis rather than trying to do [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] more than one thing when they're there. [Keith:] Yeah,w w what I think it is it's a management control, [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] because if one division, we know how many, each d i if we've got for each division [cough] the number of agreements, the number of sessions, the number of staff we've got three common factors, different numbers obviously [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] but if the ratio of visits to staff or visits to school is great, really great, significantly different in some [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] then that actually says to that divisional manager, [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] you're not, you don't seem to be using your time as efficiently [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] as others. Not that you're going to get more time because [Sue:] No. [Keith:] of this. [Sue:] But you could use it, yes [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] I understand, so in other words your research isn't actually going to tell us more than [Keith:] It's more a control than a, a, a gift. Yeah. [Sue:] It's going to tell us things over and above looking at staffing levels isn't it? Yeah I understand, yeah. [Keith:] Yeah if we agree that's one of the things we want to include. Erm, and I think that's it, yeah? Er Cynthia raised erm [whispering] []. Yeah that's the numbers linked to the division, erm... Cynthia I mean I was only going to be looking at N Y C C and C S S S funded staff, yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Because they were the part, they are the structure of the service as it exists at present. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Cynthia also wants to look at T F E adult, C S F, erm and see how they're distributed. Erm [Sue:] Mhm. [Keith:] I'm gonna have to look at how that can be done. Because [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] she argues, not unreasonably, that it does have an effect on the management [Sue:] It certainly does. [Keith:] because of the E O E particularly. [Sue:] I mean I have seven erm careers officers working with adults operating from York. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] And people like Murray and Adrian are frequently through my door [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] and yet I've been, in theory I don't actually manage them. [Keith:] That's right, yeah. Plus [Sue:] So I I also think that you know I'm, I'm quite happy to see something like that maybe dealt with in a sense as a separate issue, because it's [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] very difficult to a to assess. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] But er [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] it's, is a factor, [Keith:] Right, yeah [Sue:] Yeah Mm. [Keith:] Erm and the percentage of part time staff to full time staff, which is one I raised. [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] Because that has an effect on how you can use people. Erm [Sue:] Yeah, I was looking at that myself yesterday actually and er if I include three, three Trident staff, erm there are thirty five individuals [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] in York itself [Keith:] Yeah. and only seventeen of them are full time. Yeah, and I don't now but i I mean I'm certainly in two I've been since there's people who've referred to the fact that they don't have those members of staff working for them at the optimum days, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] because people have to come in on meetings so these people h [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] have booked their working days, they're not the best in the division. [Sue:] I have an answer to that, you don't [LAUGHTER] have any meetings []. [Keith:] Well yeah, that's a very good answer to that, yeah, but when, how would you do research? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm but that was, that was er points that are raised so far Sue, [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] so anything you wish to add erm let's, let's [Sue:] Okay [Keith:] add. [Sue:] Well what I'd quite like to do is if we could go back over [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] that Keith. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] And there were a few things that you mentioned as you were going through that a you know I just really want to make a few comments on really. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Just to make sure that erm [Keith:] Mhm. [Sue:] y you're aware of my, my views really. [Keith:] Yeah certainly. Are you going to write them on, down, or do you want me to? [Sue:] Erm, do you want to do it because [Keith:] I don't really mind, okay and then as long as we agree what we've said. [Sue:] the, you've got, yeah w if we and we both sort of jot down what we've [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] then at least if you've got a record of what everybody's said. [Keith:] Mm.... [Sue:] In the list that you sent out, in fact that one there, [Keith:] Yes. [Sue:] that does mention, cos as soon as I saw there were sessions at part time centres you know [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] that's fine. Erm number of careers centre operated of course is significant for Deborah and I. In that we've, if we're talking division we've got two full time centres obviously. Yeah. [Keith:] So Ah, I mean yes you've only got one centre [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] at York, but you've got two centres in two oth you've got three centres in the division. [Sue:] Yes that's right yeah. [Keith:] Yeah and Deborah's got four. [Sue:] Yeah [Keith:] Yeah. Erm that's an area where the divisions are not identical. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah? And it has an effect. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] If York had erm five percent greater number of educational institutions, there's still the same number of young people. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] That would have an effect. [Sue:] Have an impact, that's right. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] What did occur to me though was, if you were looking in terms of half day sessions, [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] you could actually sort of talk about, right a full time centre is ten half day sessions, two full time centre equals twenty half day sessions [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] and you could actually come up with an equitable total in terms of [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] contact time of careers [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] centre opening couldn't you? F if you used that sort of an equation.... Because there is a, obviously Tadcaster is the only part time office. It's only open you know a half day a week. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] But throughout the summer, now I, I ought to find out for you exactly how much time in total this does accrue, but we go to Sherburn Library once a fortnight throughout the summer. [Keith:] Yeah, that's fine. Erm th that's legitimate to include that. [Sue:] Erm so I, I need to [Keith:] Yeah. I'm quite happy to put the number of full time centres' weekly sessions [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] and then what we would simply say is that, I mean a day is one point zero [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] erm and a half day in another location is point seven five [Sue:] Point seven five. Yeah. [Keith:] erm but I just don't, I'm not going to [Sue:] Yeah, yeah. [Keith:] argue I mean there's no, it's not for any one of us to, to come up [Sue:] No. [Keith:] with the final list, unless that one person is Paul or Alan. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] That's fair enough, yeah. [Keith:] But I accept the point fully and that you should include any [Sue:] Now [Keith:] that you do. [Sue:] how are you going to cope with er Selby C or how are we gonna cope with Selby College. It's the only tertiary college. Erm now [Keith:] Right okay. [Sue:] obviously we can't count it twice it's only one institution. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] So we either, in terms of number of institutions I would think we probably count it as an F E institution, because this the A level is, is much smaller than the other F E. But in terms of F E students and sixth form students, what I would want to do is count the A level students as sixth form students. [Keith:] Yes. [Sue:] Yeah? [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] And the so I'm not sure [Keith:] Count all A level students as sixteen to nineteen [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] year olds. [cough] Because the percentage of adults over that age, presumably doing full time A level courses [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] is going to be minimal isn't it? [Sue:] That's right, yeah. [Keith:] Yeah, I think so. [Sue:] So I must check that the figures I've already given you, that's the way that I've done it. [Keith:] Right [Sue:] I'm not quite [Keith:] okay. [Sue:] confident that it is. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] So [Keith:] I mean I don't mind which institutional type you call it because it's not so much the courses, it's the numbers of people and the numbers of places you have to service [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] isn't it? Numbers of clients and the numbers of service points. [Sue:] That's right. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Divide er [whispering] [] yeah, I must check that out. Right th the erm I accept that looking at work carried out, which is what we've got in a number of instances, like [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] number of F E students seen [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] erm number of special needs students seen and so on. If there were a few weren't there? [Keith:] Yes. [Sue:] we got that. Erm again that's valuable information. But there is a major flaw that was pointed out when we had our last discussion about counting that alongside other factors, that you do a certain amount of work dependent on what your current staffing levels are. Were you to decrease or increase those staffing levels, then obviously that affects the amount of work you can carry out. There, there is of course a productivity rate that you could [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] try and identify, per member of staff. But I mean that would obviously be very difficult [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] to do. Erm [Keith:] Yes there are services I know which are doing that, where [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] local managers have got acc I mean f pe people using the account house or the erm one of the other major new computer systems [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] where individual C S M R returns are entered by individuals [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] or the admin assistant. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] And you can actually say that the average number of visits this week was [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] three hundred and two. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] You only did five. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] What, what do you say you're doing? Oh I was out at a school a lot. Not according to this [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] you weren't. [Sue:] Yes that's right [Keith:] Erm and you can actually then produce a percentage. [Sue:] Yeah, yeah. So I, I, I think that that in terms of managing your staff and, and future staffing levels is relevant. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] But obviously we've got to be very careful about looking at actual work carried out, bearing in mind that is [Keith:] What we're doing now. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] All of this of course, particularly related to how many erm year ten and sixth form and F E students we see, is depend we're s talking about setting a structure from July of this year. [Sue:] , yeah. [Keith:] And in less than a year after that the Secretary of State may make it clear that our client group is radically changed and moved [Sue:] Mm mm. [Keith:] up the age range. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] So all we're doing is what we're doing from July until [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] the new operating year really. [Sue:] That's right, yeah. [Keith:] The only other thing I'd say, is that the reason we're doing this is because we're facing cuts not [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] not because we're looking at expanding the service. [Sue:] Mm mm. [Keith:] Yeah? So that's why I would tend to concentrate on what we're doing now. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] What is our work as far as we can prove it today. [Sue:] Mm mm. [Keith:] Which is based on historical data but [Sue:] Mm mm. [Keith:] only going back one year. [Sue:] But I mean take, for example, the two office the two full time offices in my division. Erm there are differing work practices which I try to erode but it is very difficult [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] because obviously there's [Keith:] So you don't agree in the er local accountability [LAUGHTER] theory then []? [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] I, you see for example York College of Further and Higher Education is vast, it is, it is a very [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] big college. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] And our penetration into that client group is fairly small because we're er er er staffing levels and so on yeah. [Keith:] got a reason yeah yeah. [Sue:] We know that as soon as we try and make inroads into that it, it would absolutely mushroom. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Er and w you know we've sort of evidence for that. Now in Selby for example, where I think a we'v Bill and I have tried to offset the balance a little bit, but in the past they have been better staffed. When we lost the I S C O posts, the small [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] office of Selby gained a whole post [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] it was then really went into the school side, whereas the same effect in York was much more minimal because [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] spread much further. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Erm which meant that traditionally Selby gave a great deal more time to the college. [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] In some ca centres that's justified because of the sixth form [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] element of that. Erm but I know that the true colleges it's a disproportionate service. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Erm and that is based on the fact that Selby have, were better [LAUGHTER] staffed []. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] So they consequently did a lot more work [Keith:] Right. [Sue:] in the college you see. [Keith:] But the only, the only facts we've got, is a number seen, and the numbers that there are potentially there to be seen. [Sue:] Mm, yeah. [Keith:] Now I don't know whether we'd be able to get that I mean [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] whether the colleges will be able to say to us we have got [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] three and a half thousand people sixteen to nineteen [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] on any sort of course. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] I mean if they did, fine. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] I don't think they will uniformly. [Sue:] I think we should know as a service [Keith:] But I don't know what else we could get. [Sue:] what sort of penetration we should expect to have. [Keith:] Yeah I, I fully agree. [Sue:] Erm I don't. [Keith:] No. [Sue:] But I think that's something we need to have. [Keith:] But if we know how many we're seeing in a, in an age [Sue:] Mm [Keith:] band, yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] And we know how many there are in the age band we can say we're penetrating to a degree of [Sue:] Yeah, that's right, yeah. [Keith:] five percent or thirty percent. So we've got all, I don't know what else we could add [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] at the moment. [Sue:] No. [Keith:] I mean is there [Sue:] I, I'm really expanding on exactly what that information tells us, and in what sense, you know there's certain bits of information that analyzed as a set of information, tells us something. But it, you can't then put that information together with other information because they're actually telling us different things, if you see what I mean? [Keith:] All of it, yeah. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm I think, I think they're all telling us different things and they're gonna be int yeah [Sue:] Sort of subsets aren't they really? [Keith:] and they're gonna be interpreted [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] differently. I mean this [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] is why i ideally with the original spreadsheet, we had about five [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] items. [Sue:] That's right yeah. [Keith:] But it's the group that have decided that we'll have eighty five items. [Sue:] Yeah. You see I would be quite happy y you know i through negotiation to say, okay Askham Bryan College is in my division, I know that there are satellites and so on. And we do offer them a service, but they're a specialist college, everybody [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] there is vocationally [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] committed if you like. And I'd be quite happy to sort of agree er a penetration level there, that was a much smaller percentage than [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] you would expect in an another college [Keith:] Yeah, yeah. [Sue:] and so on. [Keith:] That's a debate area that's going to have to come to, yeah. [Sue:] So I think that sort of weighting factors are quite important, yeah. [Keith:] Yeah, yeah. I mean it's going to be contentious because I mean erm certainly Cynthia, to a smaller extent erm Mandy, would argue that whilst you've got York College of Further [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] and Higher Education, Harrogate's got Harrogate College of whatever it is now [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] and you know Ray's got Scarborough. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm numbers of those students whose addresses are in other divisions, are [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] actually being serviced at home in the home office. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] How on earth [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] The only way we're going to get that is the number of F E students seen. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm and I'm I'm happy to include the number that there theoretically are. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] And we can make whatever judgments about that we want to, as a group, I won't exclude anything Sue. [Sue:] Yeah, fair enough yeah yeah. [Keith:] And you only mentioned that briefly, once, at management team meeting and it was included in all the discussions, you know Ray was the first one, you know. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Right, so where, right that's the F E sixth form bit, quite happy about that. Erm special needs is a difficult one. [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] But I think that Jane particularly will have a view on that, because it isn't strictly a divisional issue. It is [Keith:] No. [Sue:] more truly a county issue than some other aspects, and I think that, that should help, help us out quite a lot. [Keith:] I hope so I mean [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] I did some figures last year on had this, this, this issue about distributing the special needs staff, which wasn't in the [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] M S U had planned it. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm and what, and, and because the decisions were made outside the division, they were made here, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] we just didn't get any [Sue:] Mm. Yeah. [Keith:] it didn't happen. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm our special needs provision was a erm a scale six member of staff with no prior experience who'd had a rop ropy [LAUGHTER] probation year anyway, [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] you know []? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm and when I looked at the figures, we had a greater percentage of institutions and pupils than the other sharer or partner in the process. [Sue:] Yeah yeah yeah. [Keith:] So I, I am interested in seeing [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] what the numbers say. [Sue:] Yes. Well I know that my, if I was to name my busiest member of staff, it's the person that took on that [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] special needs work. [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] And erm I think it's erm an, an issue for us to look at as a management team, whether we actually give it an even, even greater weighting [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] than we recently have done. I think that would be very justified [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] in actual fact. A lot of the work [Keith:] Yes it would y [Sue:] comes post sixteen, [Keith:] Yes. [Sue:] which is why I was pleased that erm [Keith:] Well it starts a year earlier as well. [Sue:] Well that's right. Erm but it's the,i in York and in Selby, there are very big C P V E groups [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] who have, have got quite significant special needs [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] and it th they're hu hugely time consuming, and th that I, I, you know [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] I was glad that, was it Deborah had raised that, because I certainly see that [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] as a major factor. [Keith:] Yeah yeah yeah. It is [Sue:] Erm [Keith:] yeah, I mean. But again we're not in a growth area. [Sue:] No no. [Keith:] You know the government may well have given a priority for special needs [Sue:] O i yeah if, if we give a higher weighting to special need then we've to take it away from somewhere else. [Keith:] You take it from somewhere else yeah. We're not talking about s adding extra staff [Sue:] But I, I do wonder is that might [Keith:] and seeing who gets their share. [Sue:] No but it is an opportunity to actually [Keith:] Oh yeah. [Sue:] address that isn't it? [Keith:] Yes it is, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] yeah. Yes I mean, yes I mean [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] I, I, I [Sue:] Which is why I'm a bit disappointed Alan is curtailing the discussions at two thirty, on the day that we're meeting to discuss it. But anyway, he's optimistic we'll have sorted it by two thirty. [Keith:] Right well, well we will finish by two thirty then won't we? [Sue:] yeah. Well we'll have to, to, but we've got C S M T the next day anyway. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] But erm [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Okay erm yeah a again related to special needs it the number of training applications [Keith:] Yeah yeah. [Sue:] erm which I think we can assume is reasonably standard. In [Keith:] Well I mean the arguments I've had is that they're not. [Sue:] What that in some areas somebody wouldn't get an application whereas that they would in other areas? Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. Oh no sorry the numbers. Are dy yeah yeah yeah [Sue:] The numbers are not standard I know, I, I know that we, we have a very high [Keith:] Yes in theory we should be doing the same thing [Sue:] I, I think most people would feel, we've been doing it for such a while [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] now and [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] I think that N Y T E C would have said something by now if none, you know if there was a disproportionate [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] or a vastly disproportionate er numbers. [Keith:] Yes. That's right they'd [Sue:] Erm [Keith:] have gone for the lower number wouldn't they? [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [whispering] Definitely low [] so I mean I, I s again I'm very [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] pleased that you're including that one. [Keith:] Yeah. We are including [Sue:] Erm [Keith:] it. [Sue:] what's thi we're including that one, yeah. What's this annual sickness rate for C Ts and? [Keith:] Clerk typists. [Sue:] Oh right. [Keith:] Sorry. [Sue:] Sorry I understand I thought it was careers teachers for a minute. [Keith:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Oh no. [Keith:] Ooh now that's an interesting point, cos how much of a burden then falls to the careers officer? [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] We go back to the incompetence argument again. Erm I accept again form seven projections, that that's obviously you know [Keith:] Yeah I know we're not in growth. [Sue:] No but we can't l year ahead. [Keith:] We can't ignore the next year ahead. [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] Although there is this, perhaps we won't be dealing with year eleven pupils. [Sue:] N i er well no, but it still might be that year eleven numbers is still our gearbox as Paul called it in terms of so whether that's actually [Keith:] Yeah that's our, that's our ratio yeah. [Sue:] wh the group [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] we're working with or not that might be our funding ratios. [Keith:] Mm I must admit I'm, I'm interes be interesting to see the outcome, you know when audit commission and O F S T E D say that thirty percent of people who enter further and higher education fail. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Why are we concentrating on them? Why aren't we concentrating all our resources before they start? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] You know? Still [Sue:] Erm I didn't write down the other things that you mentioned as we were going through that weren't on this list. [Keith:] Right. [Sue:] So I can't remember if there's anything [Keith:] Okay so we've got loading for management time. Holiday [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] traffic. [Sue:] So the management time was times b spent out of the office by divisional managers was it? [Keith:] That's Ray's definition, yeah. [Sue:] Yeah. Oh [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] f it'd fa fair comment actually yeah [Keith:] If it can be quantified. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Erm [Keith:] And if it's going to be relevant, from July onwards if Paul's talking about moving into different premises, [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] it's going to knock an hour off Ray's journey if we're in Thirsk, if H Q is [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] in Thirsk. [Sue:] Yeah. Yeah. [Keith:] Erm and it isn't going to add anything to anybody else about from [Sue:] The problem, we must make sure Ray doesn't include the amount of time he nee extra he needs to arrive at every meeting half an hour early. [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Well [LAUGHTER] yeah that's right. Yes he's not getting, not getting [Sue:] You know [Keith:] extra two members of staff [Sue:] No. [Keith:] because he's not using his time well. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] I mean [Keith:] [LAUGHTER] You tell him that [Sue:] I'm not sure whether, you see I think the management time issue is very related to this, but I think it's a separate issue, it's a major concern I've got at the moment that there is, I mean I know everybody's got their own arguments but there has been no time at ever in the future that anybody who goes back further than twenty years in the service can recall, where York has had such a small amount of management time as it's [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] got at the moment. And there are a lot of, as far I'm concerned there are a lot of cracks appearing. Erm [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] and I think th you know I'm certainly going to be arguing that we actually address management time almost as a separate issue. [Keith:] Well we haven't grown in the last three years as a service [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] in the way that we have in previous years and management teams haven't grown in that sense, but the responsibilities of management have been increased. And we're not doing yet the things that it was planned that we'd be doing of in a year. We're not financially responsible but we were [Sue:] No. [Keith:] expecting to be but you know, how, how could you be [Sue:] Mm [Keith:] without any additional I mean [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] the argument of m the lesson of my project is, that without an accounts technician full time here [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] forget it. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm and I suspect much, you know if you're going to be financially down there, unless you want to get involved in double entry bookkeeping because you're transferring money from one fund [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] to another, which is what we're supposed to be able to do. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Without a part time temp accounts clerk [Sue:] Mm mm mm [Keith:] forget it. Yes I agree [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] with you there. [Sue:] [cough] So I think i it'd be, I can see it being a big pitfall if we got into too much of a discussion in relation to this, about management time [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] because we could end up spending too much time on that [Keith:] But yeah [Sue:] at the expense of actually looking at, at mainline [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] staffing levels which is what [Keith:] Yeah I mean I hope all, I will be able t all I will do is say well we've got about fifty bloody criteria here. [Sue:] Yeah [Keith:] Erm I'll make up a spreadsheet with twenty five or thirty blank columns, but with all the formulas in place [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] and we'll decide which ones we want, and I'll just delete all the remaining empty [Sue:] Yes [Keith:] ones. [Sue:] Do you want the data to go in? [Keith:] I think we've gotta r [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] until we can meet and agree. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Some of the da all of the data I've g I can get I will get. [Sue:] Right. [Keith:] Yeah. Which is the stuff we've had pre before, most of which was centrally collected, yeah? [Sue:] Yes yes. [Keith:] Erm the r everything else is, is, is an area of debate isn't it? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Really. I mean even the simple things, the hard data like annual mileage, is clearly an area of debate because you and Cynthia would argue different points you know. [Sue:] Mm mm. But what about things like post sixteen special needs?... [Keith:] The thing about post sixteen special needs is, it's like F E. It doesn't happen where the clients live. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Does it? [Sue:] No. [Keith:] So you know do you get all the credit for it, because it happens in institutions in your division? Or does somebody else get the credit f or does the credit apply equally because everybody deals with their own at home? [Sue:] Mm [Keith:] Or do you get a weighting because everybody's dealing with their own, but you're actually dealing with the institution, and [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] probably get some of their work? I mean [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] that's theoretically simple hard data. [Sue:] H I mean I'm really talking about the high number of post sixteen special needs people Gail has, has to see that I mean they probably exist in other [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] offices as well, but erm, and I know she's half time and some offices have only got a quarter, but as I say, she's [LAUGHTER] the busiest person I know [] and, and she's [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] very efficient. Erm [Keith:] what would you suggest for r for, what would we do to address that?... [Sue:] Well in one sense I, I would like to see Jane addressing it, because she can do it from a non-divisional point of view. [Keith:] Oh sorry yeah I mean in terms of how, what numbers do we [Sue:] Erm in terms of numbers? [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Well I, I think to t we could try and make an assessment of the case load, special needs post sixteen case load in ter and we'd have to do it in terms of the work we actually do. [Keith:] Yeah but [Sue:] Because [Keith:] but [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] erm... there isn't one in Northern Division. [Sue:] Right but th th [Keith:] So there's no case there's no re no numbers. [Sue:] Well isn't there? If they're saying they work with people that are post sixteen and a special need, then they'll have to identify those people and have to say, but th the [Keith:] Yeah but if you haven't got anybody in the post [Sue:] Right. If we h right. Oh sorry. I understand what you mean [Keith:] And we haven't had any post since last, yeah that's, what I mean is [Sue:] Right, but presumably if that, that work's not just going by the board that's, that's right [Keith:] No it's being done by other members of staff. Yeah. So I mean in terms of identifying [Sue:] So if [Keith:] the staff the mem the post, [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] and what that post case load is, everybody can't do that uniformly. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] But the total numbers of people F E, with special needs, seen in the division [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] regardless of who they're seen by, that's hard data. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] And you could then if you wish say well we've got point five of a post, and that person saw eighty percent of those or ninety percent or [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] whatever. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm and if in another division they saw another number erm but their, their particular post only managed to see twenty percent, erm well that tells that the [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] consumers are not getting specialist services [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] for example and [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] there's, there's got to be a reallocation. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Er I'm quite happy to include the case loads erm of special needs C Os. Erm [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] no I just don't want to exclude anything [Sue:] No. [Keith:] that people feel are an issue cos together we have to exclude it. [Sue:] It's just finding a way of [Keith:] Well let's put, [Sue:] [cough] [Keith:] case loads active. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm special needs C Os yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. And I'm not talking about [Keith:] Not the specia not the [Sue:] specialists. [Keith:] senior [Sue:] No. [Keith:] it's the special needs [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] so not [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] senior. Yeah? [Sue:] Mm. Yeah. [Keith:] I mean how, how we're gonna get all the numbers I don't know but, but I mean that's a, when [Sue:] I think [Keith:] we see what people are arguing, [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] what their people's cases are. [Sue:] I mean I think at the end of the day because we're w going to have to basically in a sense your job I think even though at the moment you're saying you know fine I'm not gonna exclude anything, I think it's actually going to be sort of, to try and eliminate most of this. [Keith:] I think so yeah. [Sue:] Because at the end of the day I think that a although it's quite significant in terms of workload we might be able to address it elsewhere I mean I think the [Keith:] yeah. [Sue:] special needs thing can be addressed [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] in a slightly different way. I think the management thing can be addressed in a different way [cough] erm excuse me erm, oh I've lost my thread now but, oh yeah that's right [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] in terms of when you're taking so much into consideration, the actual lo loading or weighting of that factor would actually s turn into dr into something very insignificant in terms of weighting I think. [Keith:] Yes. I mean Paul's proposal was to have a spreadsheet of hard data [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] but we're obviously, we've got debate about what really [Sue:] Yes s [Keith:] is hard data now. To which we add a whole series of other factors that we then kick around and argue over. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] So we, so we distribute the staff based on the hard data and then you make cases based on other factors. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Erm and if you and Ray make the same case, then you and Ray have to fight for the [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] share of resources, if it doesn't apply to any others. But if [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] everybody makes the same case [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] then either we ignore it or we, well we'd have to ignore it wouldn't [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] we? Cos we're another four [Sue:] Mm mm. [Keith:] of staff. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] So yeah small number of factors in the sheet, and then supplementary debate items. [Sue:] Mm. And maybe issues that are, that are dealt with in a different forum completely but erm [Keith:] Yeah.... Yeah? [Sue:] Right okay. Just remind me again whether a goes towards the bottom or [Keith:] Networks links, N Y B E C, work experience, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] the number of schools in a division, erm [Sue:] Yes.... [Keith:] Y T, everything in Y T [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] C L As, clerical to management, mileage to schools, management time as you said. [Sue:] Yeah so all of those things [Keith:] Economy to scale is another one, Deborah, you need a minimum number of staff erm to service a location. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] I mean it's interesting I mean Cynthia raised that point yesterday, to which the answer, I mean I'm afraid I have to say th th the glib answer is, why are you telling me you need a minimum number of two members of staff at lunch time, for a full time office in the centre of town, surrounded by bloody phone calls, in school buildings, when you send one single member of staff aged twenty one, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] to Stokesley, who if she screamed through a bloody bullhorn wouldn't be heard by anybody? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] You know erm I don't know whether that, I mean I think that's going to be another area of considerable debate [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] how many people [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] do you need. Erm to be honest it's no good saying you need two members of staff every office, on health and safety grounds. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Or consumer satisfaction grounds cos we haven't got 'em. [Sue:] Mm yeah. We can't, we can't say, can't erm really just contradict ourselves like that can we? No. I, I think it's an interesting [Keith:] No, I don't mind the contradiction but [Sue:] argument because [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] I think you can, I, I've, the same argument has occurred to me in relation to special schools. Where there might be a very small number [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] that almost regardless of the number, you've actually got to do a certain amount [Keith:] You've got to, you've got to physically go there two or three times, you've got to form the agreement. [Sue:] relationship with the school even if there's only one person there. [Keith:] Yeah exactly. [Sue:] Erm erm I, I think that you know I, that had occurred to me in the past [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] that we should actually look at a ce a minimum [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] number of days per institution and then the weighting over and above that is on the number of pupils, mm. [Keith:] F for number of pupils, yeah. What's a m I mean we could easily say it's [Sue:] I don't think it's [Keith:] you know it's go you could easily say it's a minimum of three days [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] just to introduce yourself, meet the staff [Sue:] That's right that's right. [Keith:] start the agreement and finish the agreement. [Sue:] Yeah yeah. [Keith:] And that is including [Sue:] I think in terms of schools it only really applies to special schools, I think once y even in some of the small independents, once you get over about forty or fifty, then you're gonna have enough contacts [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] anyway [Keith:] Yes. Yeah [Sue:] erm to keep the thing going. But [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] certainly with some of the specials, especially where the numbers fluctuate so much from [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] year to year, [Keith:] Mm. [Sue:] to maintain the relationship. [Keith:] Yeah, and of course you know when you've got a specialist school that is one site special, special education needs pupils, nursery, primary, secondary, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] all in one school. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm that causes problems as well. Mind you more for the governors but hard luck. [Sue:] So all of these are the factors that [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] people have come up with [Keith:] I'm gonna simply list every single factor Yeah. [Sue:] on a single sheet I hope yeah? Provide [Keith:] Yeah. a magnifying glass. I will asterisk those which I believe are s the simple raw data that Paul referred to, and the remainder are the [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] you know the, the supplementary debate items [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] but which have to come with numerical evidence. [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] So really if we did agree that any of those supplementary factors were going to be significant. And they'd only be significant if we were expecting a significant disproportion anyway [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] erm then we would actually go, have to go away from that meeting on the nineteenth and c and come back with that information [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] for you to process. [Keith:] Well unless I, I ask you beforehand you know [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] I circulate this beforehand. [Sue:] Yes [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] So we come prepared. [Keith:] Which would be the best thing. [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] One of the other things you talked about briefly yesterday, Cynthia and I, was er Cynthia believes that Northern Division operates in a radically different way to other divisions. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] And sh there are a number of reasons that she believes that. Erm but we were also looking, I mean we were looking at you know how many staff you need a minimum number of staff, economies of scale. Now i d in our debate we, we had separately actually come up with very similar f processes. Erm which was to, to audit what staff were required to run a division in a month, of four weeks [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] or a statistical month, I mean a month of four weeks is probably easier. Erm so we were saying for example, and this is what we, we'd actually come up with, the five days of the week, and the three categories of staff, I mean I've just obviously put erm C L As are in either C L or E O really [Sue:] Mhm. [Keith:] I mean they're C O really in terms of grading and what [Sue:] This in terms of th er the careers centres rather than in [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] terms of servicing schools or anything like that it isn't [Keith:] N no everything. [Sue:] Oh it's everything? [Keith:] Yeah [Sue:] Ooh God right. [Keith:] so, oh no sorry this was in centres. Yeah? [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] To staff the North Northallerton office. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] The way the standards require it to be we need the following numbers of staff. And we had to do it over a week and over a month because some weeks you do things that don't do [Sue:] Yes. [Keith:] the previous week. Erm Thirsk, Richmond, Leyburn, Stokesley and in the whole, and that's a hundred percent. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm and then see how many we'd got. You know [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] you need that. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] And how many we'd actually got. [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm and part of the problem's always gonna be there's part time staff who [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] for a variety of reasons only work certain days. Generally speaking those days are agreed by the member of staff's needs rather than the organizations interviewed [Sue:] Or they're historical and you can't change them, yes. [Keith:] Or historical, yeah. Erm or they're related to attendance at meetings you know er no [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] good saying, your job is Tuesday and Friday [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] but actually we have a meeting every F every Monday [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] afternoon [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] so I mean we've got more people in on Mondays [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] not because that's the best day for them to be in to do their work, er it's not, erm but because that's when the meeting is. [Sue:] Yeah well we had, we had to abandon that, we brou we brought all our Employment Officers in on a Friday, erm and we just couldn't staff the office the rest of the week you see [Keith:] Yeah I know. [Sue:] It's gone by the board and I have to confess we've not had a [Keith:] I think a meeting of [Sue:] me proper meeting for a long time. [Keith:] an hour a week meeting is means that there's not adequate communication [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] in the office, doesn't [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] it? [Sue:] I, I'm going to have to have more than one meeting and let people, say you've got to come to one or the other and have them at different times during the week. [Keith:] Yes. I mean I, I, there is actually an argument for having one meeting, everybody knows when it is and where it is, and if people feel they're being left out or not b getting informed they should make the case that I am [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] not being informed. Or if [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] it's evident that they're not informed because they're not doing what they're required to do, [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] erm they, we have make sure they get n get told. But [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] we can't have [Sue:] Yeah. [Keith:] I can't ha I can't function on inflexible everybody comes in for an hour. [Sue:] We've got certain mi amount of erm the factor where people will say well I, I'll swap that week because there's a meeting [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] I'll come in the morning instead or whatever, erm but quite often it means if they're coming in they say, well I'll be in town anyway I'll come in for that hour [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] Th they're building up flexitime which [Keith:] Yeah. [Sue:] has got to be taken off at some other time erm [Keith:] B and one of the issues that we're talking about is operational matters, not all of which is a matter for open debate so [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] they're there to be informed [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] of a management decision. Yeah? [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Erm so as it's not an open debate to produce a decision, very often, and it will be less so I imagine, erm they don't need to be there to listen to this debate. So they need to be there t to hear the answer. And the method that we're going to use. Well those that are there can do that and contribute to some extent. Those that aren't will have the minutes, yeah? [Sue:] Mm. [Keith:] Or clear instructions that are

[Sue:] Right. So that's the charter mark, we're going for it again but I don't think the impact will be, you know the main impact was, was last time. I put on that your newsletter that I sent round in York er to tell staff we were going for it again, so you know th [Bill:] Start wearing your badges. [Sue:] Start wearing your badges yes, yes, keep up appearances. Right [speaker003:] Mrs Bouquet. [Sue:] the next, yeah that's right yeah yeah [LAUGHTER] I put keep on keeping up appearances or something, yeah. [speaker003:] appearances, [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Bids for f various funding, there are three issues on that that came up at C S M T. Erm the T Q M one, which is the er you know the, the quality [Cath:] Mhm. [Sue:] training, quality workshops. We've actually been successful in that again because we've got, last year I think we got six thousand pounds, and this year we've been told we can have eighty percent of the same again. So yeah [Cath:] Very good. [Sue:] so erm you know a fair chunk of money again and er yeah [Bill:] the first two years [Sue:] Alan's already had initial discussions with a few of us and with Graham about what the next stage should be erm but that's really not been finalized yet. But there will obviously be sort of an ongoing training and so on because I, I know that in some ways I think it's been very mixed and I qu I put [Cath:] It is mixed. [Sue:] it on the agenda and I'd quite like to talk about it today. But erm... I think really at the end of the day staff have only really had just that one day workshop, [Cath:] Mhm. [Sue:] some of which went better than others [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] and you can't expect a lot, to achieve a lot from just [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] one day. [Sylvia:] Mm. [Sue:] And I think it's finding [Diane:] People's perceptions of those one days are so different [Sue:] Aren't they? It's really strange isn't it? [Bill:] Mm. [Cath:] the way Val talks I think I must have been at something else. [Sue:] I know. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] I know. But I've heard two people [Bill:] Yes. [Sue:] that went to the same one talking differently. [speaker003:] Mm. [Bill:] Oh yeah, yeah. [Sue:] It's r really quite baffling but [Bill:] I think I think one of the important things about, about that and perhaps it ne needs building in somewhere else and I know it's extra time, is debriefing staff [Sue:] Yeah. [Cath:] Yes. [Bill:] when they've been on courses. [Cath:] Mm. [Bill:] Because I've, I've spoken to staff who, who thought it was awful but when chatted to them about it [speaker003:] Mm. [Bill:] they have, they have got something out of it [speaker003:] Yeah. [Bill:] and certain parts of it were useful, and perhaps it wasn't so bad after all, [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] once you'd discussed it with them. [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] But there were certain elements that remained in, in their, in, in their mind [Sue:] Yeah. [Bill:] that, that spoilt the course or were not relevant and they'd forgotten about the relevant bits. [Cath:] Mm yes, yeah. Yeah remember the parts [Bill:] Yeah. [Diane:] Yeah. [Cath:] good points. [Bill:] But I think perhaps it's no it's not only with that course I th think it's lots of other anyway, haven't you? [Sue:] Yeah with other training as well, yeah we are in, yeah. [Cath:] Yeah [Bill:] We, we occasionally get forms through but er there [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] doesn't seem to be a set system at the moment whereby you know we [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] should be sitting down with staff who've been on courses. [Sue:] Mm, yeah Alan's very keen to promote that. [Cath:] tendency if you talk about it you'd be honest but to write it on a form you'd be [Sue:] Exactly. [Sylvia:] I wasn't scared [Sue:] The other thing is to talk it over with your line manager, so that if you've picked something up you want to implement yourself back at, in the workplace then [Cath:] Yes. [Sue:] you've got support to do that, you're not battling on your own [speaker003:] Yeah. [Bill:] Yeah. [Sue:] really. And if you've told someone else I'm going to change my work practices in this way and it's been supported then is it, it's more difficult to forget about it [Cath:] No. [Sue:] isn't it really? [Bill:] Yeah. [Sue:] So I mean Alan's very keen on it cos it's all to do with investors in people and so on, so er I mean what we really need is somebody centrally like a proper training officer [Bill:] Mm. [Cath:] That's right, mm. [Sue:] with time to really get issues like that under way. [Kevin:] That's right. [Sue:] But erm w we haven't got that, so anyway [LAUGHTER] something [] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Diane:] Kevin shall we get [Sue:] Yes Kevin. [Kevin:] I'll do it. [Sue:] You'd like to do it, yeah. [Kevin:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Mm. Erm the, the second Lost me bit. Oh here it is. The second bid issue is the careers service branch development fund which is the one that's available every year, but we originally had Jane 's project, the F E project and so, erm now this year the bids have been asked to be on certain subject areas. And er we were quite fortunate in this cos I went, had to go to a meeting in Sheffield and I hadn't realized in advance but at this meeting the people at the meeting were asked to give recommendations as to what priorities should be given in terms of awarding the bids. So I came away with this sort of inside information [Sylvia:] Ah [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] of what was going to be favoured. Erm it sort of backfired a bit on poor er Ray because he'd actually written up a bid er for us to do, which was about investors in people to actually h appoint somebody to control that process which would take on board all of the training and [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] quality issues and [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] so on. But at this meeting I went to, people there felt very strongly that services should not be awarded funding to go for investors in people. Because if services [Bill:] Should be doing it [Sue:] were doing it on their own two feet, [Diane:] Yeah. [Sue:] then you know why should it be seen as a disincentive for them to that and services that hadn't been bothered to do that be given money. [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] Erm and also it was felt that the I I P was quite well structured, and that there was potentially less to learn from a service [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] implementing that than something that was a little bit more innovative. So I had to come back and sort of say to Ray, you know, if we go for that bid it's not likely to be supported, erm so we, what we'd done is a different bid which still includes investors but it's, it's a bit broader than that. And what it's actually to do is is to do with this National Standards and Indicators that have been written for the careers service. And that really they're to do with, they cover all aspects of the work that we currently carry out. But when they were originally written erm I think it were f seen as fairly low key but now they've taken, assumed a much greater importance in terms of them being the actual service specification for the new careers services under the, the employment legislation. Erm and so the, the project we've put forward is that we will trial some of these indicators, to see whether they work, to see what they tell us, erm and therefore we would hopefully be able to improve these indicators, so that we think that they're, they're much better in order to er sort of shape the, the performance for the, the future services. But I don't know whether we'll get it or not. We've been quite lucky cos we got the [Diane:] Mm [Sue:] management to put money [Diane:] have been lucky. [Sue:] and you know it's a case of whether you believe that we're in favour because we got this money and therefore we're likely to get [speaker003:] [yawn] [Sue:] more, or whether we're out of favour, especially as Paul's making us fairly unpopular with all this, the success he's having in lobbying. [Diane:] Mm. [Sue:] Which, you know, Alan and I were saying we were a bit concerned about because he's doing i such a good job I think on the lobbying, that North Yorkshire are not going to be flavour of the month in terms of ministers or senior civil servants [Cath:] Civil servants. [Sue:] really. [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] But anyway [Cath:] Double edged sword. [Sue:] Mm. [Cath:] Yeah. [Sue:] It is yeah. [Kevin:] When, is there a, a date when the bids will be announced? [Sue:] Probably, but [LAUGHTER] I don't know when it is []. [Kevin:] You don't know when it is. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] No []. No I don't know when they're making decisions, the deadline for them being in was the end of the financial year, [Kevin:] Right. [Sue:] and one of the criteria that Derek said that they would, would be supporting bids were for ones that would start at the beginning of May. [speaker003:] Tt. [Kevin:] Right [Sue:] So [LAUGHTER] [Kevin:] [LAUGHTER] [Diane:] come under [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] come under. [Sue:] And in fact we said that we would be able to start it on the, at the beginning of May, even though we knew we wouldn't, [LAUGHTER] we thought we'd say that [] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Cath:] Just nod in agreement. [Sue:] Yeah. So you know, nothing might come of that but if it does erm I would be very keen to actually er the, the plan was to second a member of C S M T for six months to do it, and I would be very keen to do it I must admit. Erm but we'll have to wait and see. Erm the third one is we've got a small amount of money out of, think again it's out of TEED and, but it's N Y T E C have got hold of it and it's to do with further development of the Careers Service Tech Partnership, but it's only a few thousand, it's a very small n amount compared, I mean the bid that we've put in for this Standards and Indicators is more like sort of thirty thousand. But erm the one on the er for the partnership is only in the region of about four or five thousand. And I think what Paul wants to spend that on is bringing erm in some external consultant to actually look at models for the future, how to develop our current partnership model [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] into something where [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] the board are executive and decision making [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] rather than advisory. So somebody like erm.... I can't think of the names, you know these [Bill:] Pete. [Sue:] , [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] Pete, that sort of thing. [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] Er and of course erm Roger 's quite keen on that idea as [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] well, and he's the one that'll make the decision I think cos he's got hold of the money. So [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] I think that's what that'll be spent on. You see it's quite nice that erm some money is, is coming in from outside, but I don I think ideally it's not really being spent on what our, our top priorities would [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] be, but I think it's just a case of taking advantage of what there is available [Cath:] That's right, yeah. [Sue:] to see what, what benefit we can get out of that really. There's always a danger that you've, you've, it's a fine balance between it creating more work, so it actually causes more problems. But I think certainly the one on Standards and Indicators is so central to everything we do and [speaker003:] Mm. [Sue:] are going to be doing under the new contract think you could only learn from that really. Erm links with N Y T E C was the next thing on the agenda, just to report back that Jane and Paul have had a long meeting with Roger and Helen from the Tech. I think it was really because Paul felt that everything was going really well with the partnership board, and he'd been erm putting a lot of work in with people like erm from Scarborough, and John and er other people who are on the board, but he'd rather been neglecting building up a really good working relationship with N Y T E C. So he decided he needed to invest some time in, in that. And erm they had a, obviously a very productive meeting and, and it, they didn't say a lot about it but overall they said that really Roger and Helen now had a much better understanding of the direction we wanted to go in in the future and were pretty supportive of it really. And certainly on to the point of wanting to bail out and contract [Cath:] Right. [Sue:] bid for a contract to run a [LAUGHTER] careers service on their own [] [Cath:] yeah. [Sue:] or anything like that. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] Which I understand another er local tech are, are actually doing. Erm we talked about the Y T guarantee. Erm but [LAUGHTER] that's all a bit depressing cos talk about the Y T guarantee []. [Bill:] That's what he talked about at the S W G isn't it? [Sue:] Yes it is. [Sylvia:] Is it? [Sue:] Yeah on the tenth of May there's S W G [Cath:] Hmm. [Sue:] and that's one of the main topics of conversation and a representative of N Y T E C will be there. [Cath:] So it's from a guarantee point of view rather than how to compile the stats? [Sue:] Well [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] unfortunately not. [Cath:] Well it won't be [Sue:] No but I think it will focus on why there are anomalies still between the offices, erm [Cath:] N Y T E C [Sue:] Yeah but I think what w Jane is going to do is invite somebody from N Y T E C to join us later, so that we have chance to get our act together [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] and er paper over cracks before they come. [Diane:] Yeah so [Cath:] So you're all singing the same song. [Sue:] Yeah. [Cath:] Same key. [Sue:] That's right exactly, yeah. So er I'm actually going to go to that meeting, Jane asked if, you know there's anybody i really, really invited anyone from C S M T to go. So I thought as we've still got the biggest guarantee I would go to it. Erm have you decided which one of you are coming or are you both coming or? [Sylvia:] Diane's going to go [Cath:] Diane's gonna go but I haven't had a chance to talk to her about it yet, again. [Diane:] Okay [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Right, great. [Bill:] Yeah Di Diane was off sick earlier in the week so [Diane:] Yeah. [Sue:] Right. [Cath:] And not been in much since she came back. [LAUGHTER] [Diane:] Yeah I've still been working though. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Erm [Bill:] You haven't been in the office is what I mean, in the centre. [Diane:] Thank you. [Sue:] In the centre [LAUGHTER] [Sylvia:] Centre [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] Yeah. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] You've been in the centre of things. You're always in the centre of things []. [Diane:] centre of things, but not in the centre here. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Staffing issues. Really that wasn't actually dis the staffing issues themselves weren't discussed, but just to recap on what the situation is with the staffing issues and what's meant by that. About a third of our staff have got temporary contracts. Most of which I know some of them have already come to an end like Julie's E S [speaker003:] Mm. [Sue:] F contract er and the other E O E S F contracts have come to an end. But there are quite a few contracts which are still temporary, most of them go to the end of June. Erm one or two people are temporary ext extend beyond that like er Norma for example, in T V E I contract which goes to the end of August. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] But de it's been done deliberately that other contracts extend to end of June because, we knew that by round about mid May we would know what our financial situation was, in that what I understand are termed out-turn figures for the, our pre the previous financial year, will have been erm audited as a result of the end of the financial year. So we'll know whether we're in the black, red or where [Cath:] Mhm. [Sue:] we are. And obviously it'll be very dependent on how much money we've got as to what our stavin staffing establishment will be. So obviously no one who's got an establishment contract will be affected from the first of July, but really everyone who's on a temporary contract, those contracts are very much in the melting pot, and we've got a meeting on the nineteenth of May s an extra C S M T meeting, to say, right this is how much money we've got, these are the people with temporary contracts but the third and most important factor really is this is a new assessment of the workload of every office, and whereas in the past careers officer establishment has been based exclusively on year eleven figures and other staffing has been based on pretty arbitrary factors of historical nature [Cath:] Mm mm. [Sue:] and what M S U had to say when they reviewed us [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] er we're hoping now that we will be able to take into account a much broader range of factors. So Keith has been doing a lot of work erm and putting on a database information about office traffic, Y T occupancy, [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] F E, sixth form, year eleven, independent schools, special needs. He's taken all of those factors into consideration. It started to get out of proportion in that he, Ray has been talking to him about the impact of the summer season in Scarborough in terms of how long it takes his staff to get from A to B. [Bill:] Tt oh. [Sue:] People have been talking to him about sickness and that if an office has erm people that are off sick a lot more than another office they're at a disadvantage. [Cath:] Oh no [speaker003:] Tt. [Sue:] And it's got er really absolutely [Bill:] That's silly. [Sue:] totally ridiculous, erm so you know I said to Keith, well you know alright York races, better put that in and a you know I started getting [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] a bit sort of flippant about it [Sylvia:] Yes [Sue:] and [speaker003:] Mm. [Sue:] I hope that when we meet on the nineteenth Alan or Paul will immediately knock all that on the head. Er [Sylvia:] Mm. [Bill:] And we've got the bridge in Selby of course? [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Of course, yes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Kevin:] Yes the bridge. [Sylvia:] Mm. [Kevin:] Should be worth half a careers officer. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] I, I mean obviously I hope the decisions will go my way because Keith has actually argued in the past that we should disregard F E, because he says it's, it's impossible to fairly take account of that, and what he means is there's no F E formulae in Northallerton, so he knows that if F E is excluded Northallerton will be at a major divan [Cath:] Will lose out, mm. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] disadvantage you see. Erm so I really don't know, I mean i tt in a sense I, I sort of feel that, that justice would be that, that our division would come out reasonably well from these discussions [Diane:] Yeah. [Sue:] because I think that when you look at year eleven we're at a disadvantage [Cath:] Mhm. [Sue:] because other things, oh one other thing that I was particularly keen that [LAUGHTER] was taken into consideration [] is applications for training. For Y T. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] Because w in an analysis of that, this division, does getting on fo I think it was forty seven percent of [Diane:] Mm. [Sue:] those. Whereas our year eleven figures are thirty five percent. [Diane:] Mm. [Sue:] So you can see what I mean that these additional [Sylvia:] Yeah. [Sue:] things [speaker003:] Yeah. [Sue:] it just gives us that extra bit of loading [speaker003:] Yeah. [Sue:] in terms of erm time. [Diane:] It's different time groups. [Kevin:] Hmm. Unless a formula can be worked out, if you put all this stuff in, unless a formula can be worked out I mean you might as well just to year eleven full stop. [Diane:] I know. [Bill:] But it's [Kevin:] Each, yeah. [Bill:] the same with the information librarian isn't it? [Cath:] Yes that's right [Bill:] In that if sh the, the case load Charlotte's got here of two offices and, and a large number of schools compared with [Sue:] Northallerton. [Bill:] Northallerton. [speaker003:] Yes. Mm. [Bill:] And yet they've got the same amount of time [Sylvia:] Mm. [Bill:] and it's, it's, it's not right is it? I mean it's [Kevin:] No. [Sue:] No no. [Bill:] I'm not surprised that our offices are in a mess, [Cath:] No. [Bill:] because she's just not got the time [Sylvia:] Yeah. [Kevin:] No that's right, that's right [Bill:] w with her having to be out at all the schools and everything. [Kevin:] yeah. [Sue:] I, it, it was interesting actually because I mean Nor Northallerton is the e is the office at risk in a sense because when they get a fourth of anything, theirs is relatively more and ours is relatively less. [Sylvia:] Less. [Sue:] Scarborough and, and, and Harrogate are pretty even and they're also very close to being a quarter [Cath:] Mhm. [Sue:] of, of things. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] Erm so if we gained it would be at the expense of Northallerton erm and when I, I made this point, well I didn't make this point I, I made the point about York being under-resourced because [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] we're, we're more than a quarter. Erm you know and, and credit to Cynthia, she was the one that immediately thought, spoke up agreeing with me. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] Erm and, but at the same time she is the one that always has, seems to have more to say about staffing problems [Bill:] Cos it's sub offices [Sue:] and difficulty in coping with it there, yeah. This is the difficult thing, how, how do we take account of the sub offices of erm Scarborough and, and Northallerton? At the end of the day there's Tadcaster, [Cath:] Yeah. [Sue:] and we've got two full time offices [Kevin:] That's right. [Sue:] they're talking about five offices as opposed to three. [Cath:] Mhm. [Sue:] Erm [Bill:] And we run Sherburn in the summer. [Sue:] Yeah I know, [Cath:] Yes. Yes [Sue:] I told Keith about that. [Kevin:] [LAUGHTER] [Diane:] office in Easingwold as well. [Bill:] We have to go into Easingwold. [Sue:] Well I don't think we have [LAUGHTER] because I don't think it's been included in the programme this year []. [Diane:] last year [Bill:] But the van every week. [Diane:] haven't got any staff to do it this, we managed to do it last year. [Cath:] Cos it [Sue:] Cath says it [LAUGHTER] wasn't worth it []. [Cath:] If you're looking at that, we maintain three point centres [Sue:] Yeah. [Sylvia:] Mm. [Cath:] during the year don't we because [Sue:] Yes. [Cath:] Sherburn is open. [Sue:] That's right, Keith said that he certainly would take that into consideration. I said I'd let him know the total number of, of contact days or whatever with Sherburn over the period so that is something I need to get from you Bill. So you can imagine the sort of conversations we're gonna have when Ray and Cynthia are talking about the distances between things and I'm going to be saying you know if I want to go from Piccadilly to Tech house, it can take me at least half an hour. [Bill:] Yeah. [Cath:] Exactly yeah. [Sue:] It takes Jane no longer than that to come from Thirsk. [Cath:] That's right. [Sylvia:] Mm. [Sue:] But tt I'm not looking forward to it. But you know I'm [Bill:] No you can't put travel time in can you? Cos [speaker003:] No. [Bill:] everywhere's got its own problems on that hasn't it [Cath:] No, yeah that's right [Bill:] in that they're all [Sylvia:] Mm. [Bill:] Whether it's distance or congestion,. [Sylvia:] And like you say our bridge does make a big difference. [Sue:] It does. [Sylvia:] You can get back from York in quarter of an hour and then you can be sat there for [Bill:] Yeah. [Sylvia:] you know twenty minutes, [Sue:] Yeah. [Sylvia:] half an hour. [Cath:] Yeah. [Sue:] Cynthia also admitted that maybe if they really had got staffing problems they would actually have to look at whether they, they did keep maintaining the, the sub offices that they were. And that you know, look at the traffic very seriously and see whether it was merited or not and that maybe greater use of the mobile. [speaker003:] Mm. [Sue:] But you would go there less frequently. [Bill:] Which is based in Northallerton anyway. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Kevin:] Mm. [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] But the thing I keep coming back to when I look at the figures is that Northallerton is only a third bigger than Selby. Cath's getting [LAUGHTER] fed up of me saying this []. [LAUGHTER] [Cath:] No I was only thinking that when you talk about [Kevin:] Yeah. [Cath:] Northallerton when you think of the traffic that goes through Richmond it's nearly as high as what goes through [speaker003:] Yeah. [Cath:] Northallerton. [Diane:] Yeah. [Sylvia:] Mm. [Diane:] Yeah. [Cath:] So there can't be much going on in Thirsk and Leyburn. [Sue:] No. No Cynthia said that last line didn't she? [Bill:] No she said that that's why last line of yeah. [Sue:] But you see you still have to have a person there while we're [Cath:] That's right. [Sue:] still maintaining the offices. [Cath:] That's right. [Sue:] And er [Diane:] you might end up down to once a week if it's twice or whatever [Sue:] Yeah. [Diane:] you know. [Sue:] Mm. [Diane:] But we're looking to open full time. [Sue:] Mm. [Diane:] Gone on [Sue:] Th it was being looked at at one point [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] along with Whitby being full time, and certainly Whitby traffic has increased enormously since they've got their new office. [Diane:] I've seen it from the outside it's quite erm [Sue:] Yeah it's lovely. But then if you, at, it, Filey it's n there's hardly anybody [speaker003:] Well. [Sue:] goes into the Filey office, I can remember that from when it was my responsibility. This is going to be an interesting meeting, Alan says it will be over by two thirty because he's organized for some training to happen then on er disciplinary issues. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Requested by [Bill:] Personnel training. [Sue:] Personnel training, requested by Divisional Manager West. [Diane:] I'm just wondering whether one or two things that's come down recently on discipline [Kevin:] Disciplinary sorry. Just to sort of tear off on that. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] Got him worried now. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Kevin:] Do you mean how, you mean how, how to, how to discipline? Procedures. [Cath:] procedures [speaker003:] Procedures [Kevin:] Internal discipline you again? [Sue:] Mm. [Cath:] There's been a lot of stuff come down from county. [Kevin:] As opposed to complaints from outside. [Diane:] Oh yeah. [Bill:] Yeah, no staffing. [Diane:] Staffing. [Cath:] And sickness as well if you're looking at [door knock] [Sue:] Yeah. [Cath:] counselling for sickness. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Excuse me. Erm Alison from the Job Centre is on the phone, and I asked her if it was urgent and she said, fairly urgent, it's regards to the article [Sue:] To do with article. [speaker003:] erm it's concerning the photograph, and she just wondered if you had anything in mind for the photograph or if, if you wanted to leave it up to the press? [Sue:] Tt erm I did wonder if this might happen actually I couldn't remember whether they wanted a photograph or not. Cath, can you ever remember whether we've had a photograph taken at the recruitment fair?... [Cath:] Don't think so. [Sue:] I don't. [Bill:] No I haven't seen a picture. [speaker003:] seen two possible but [Sue:] When the p cos the press have been there I mean they ha they had their own stand, they've not taken a photograph have they? [Sylvia:] Oh. [Diane:] No I don't think so. [speaker003:] That on the left, did they have a photograph of it? Try and think about the initial one when the Lord Mayor opened it. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Tt you see the, the press might have something, they're actually taking part in the event that the erm [speaker003:] Right [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] the erm article is about. [speaker003:] Right. [Sue:] A is she on still on at the moment? [speaker003:] Yes she's still on at the phone. [Sue:] Yeah I'v I'll come and have a word with her. Yeah it's okay.... [break in recording] [Cath:] greater York aren't we? [Sue:] Yeah. [Cath:] I mean then we didn't even go into Fulford, we stopped there. [Sue:] Yeah [Cath:] Erm [Sue:] You'd, you'd, you'd, you'd have, Huntington and Fulford You wouldn't have Easingwold or Tadcaster though. It would, it would [Cath:] It wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? [Sue:] No. It would, it would be bigger though wouldn't it? Than it was. Anyway. [Bill:] Hmm. Interesting. [Sue:] Where was I up to? [Bill:] J b been doing staffing. [Sue:] Oh that's right. Oh yeah the, the [Kevin:] I think er actually [Sue:] other thing about [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah [] the other thing on staffing tt which is a related, but in a sense I'm trying to keep it as something of a separate issue, and that is to do with the amount of management time. I've started to talk to Alan about what I see as a lack of, of management time erm in this division. Erm but I must say that I know the view of erm both Ray and Cynthia is that they have a lack of management time in relation to the other two divisions, because they don't have the assistant divisional manager post. So it's yet another argument that you know everybody's got their legitimate view on and erm at the end of the day there's actually likely to be less money in the pot rather than more. [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] And I really don't know [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] what's going to be the outcome of some of this. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] But anyway, so the meeting's on the nineteenth of May, we'll finish at two thirty. [Kevin:] Can I just say that that's the day before the C S M T that I'm going to, so how does it [Sue:] Mm it is, yes yes. [Kevin:] link into that meeting? [Sue:] Because I don't think we'll have made any decisions by two thirty. [Bill:] So you'll think he'll just flow into the next day's [Sue:] So it'll be continuous at the C S M T the next day. [Kevin:] Right. [Sue:] And you see Paul won't be present at the, I don't think Paul'll be present at the meeting on the nineteenth, I think Alan will chair that. [Bill:] Right. [Sue:] So that what we will have to do is make our recommendations to Paul the following day. So we'd have to go through it the next day anyway. [Kevin:] Do you want me to come on the nineteenth as well? [Sue:] So [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Kevin:] Cos that seems to be the day when the arguments and discussions may be er set [Sue:] Yes it is rather yes no I can't get you in to that one. But y you'll be there on the twentieth. [Kevin:] I could just turn up and say, oh am I a day too early? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Cath:] Shame to go back, I'll stay today as well. [Sue:] You'll have to be play it very carefully on the er on the Thursday and not look as if you, yeah [Bill:] You can nod, what you do is you, when you nod [Kevin:] Ah but! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Diane:] I'll kick you under the table or something. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Kevin:] Yes. [Sue:] Two kicks to shut up and one kick to speak. [LAUGHTER] [Kevin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Sue:] Oh. So we shall see. We haven't got er I mean obviously a lot of the staff that are on these temporary contracts are from the adult team. [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] And er that is obviously going to contract because you'll have seen the, the note that went round saying that, you know we haven't got as much money for that next year. [Kevin:] Mm. [Bill:] What ab you know the posts that we've got funded through Y T on action plans? [Sue:] Yeah. [Bill:] Is that, is any news, is that just gonna continue at the moment, what's happening there? [Sue:] Jane's been talking to Paul about it and he's being very non committal because of this Y T S T M review [Bill:] Right. [Sue:] you see? But he's hopeful that it will continue. So they, that funds the best part of a careers officer [Bill:] Mm I see. [Sue:] and, and that has been integrated across a county into the establishment which is why I'm sort of saying [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] you know, we should have more than just [Kevin:] We've never had half of that in the past. [Sue:] we h we did prior to the M S U review. And when M S U did their review that post just got [Bill:] yeah. [Sue:] integrated across the county. It shouldn't have done because it was extra funding it should have been left out but they made [Bill:] Yeah. [Sue:] a mistake and included it in. [Kevin:] Oh right. [Sue:] So but [Kevin:] Mm. [Sue:] you see there's clear evidence on that because the number of action plans that are completed [Cath:] Mhm. [Sylvia:] Mm. [Bill:] Yes still, still [Sue:] erm Jane gave me the figures and as I say this division is about forty seven percent. [Cath:] But following on from that number of second and thirds and fourths that are done? [Sylvia:] Exactly. [Sue:] Well one assumes that that pattern [Cath:] And you know I mean [Sue:] Oh yes I see what you mean [Cath:] Yeah. [Sue:] that the load is more than just the initial action of my division [Cath:] probably do a, a fourth [Sue:] yeah. [Cath:] you know the second time. [Sue:] Yeah. [Cath:] But if you do it in twenty three you're talking about doing [Sue:] That's right, yeah. [Cath:] you know whatever. [Sue:] But the proportions [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] are, are the same but I see the point that you're making is that the workload isn't just the initial action plan. [Cath:] Action plan. [Sue:] Yeah. [Bill:] Not at all, I mean they can be done in three times. [Sue:] That's right [Cath:] Mhm. [Sue:] Yeah. [Diane:] Five in some cases. [Bill:] Are they? [Sylvia:] Yeah I was going to say, a few are aren't they? [Kevin:] That's worth mentioning isn't it? [Sue:] Well this is another thing I raised with Keith that I [Bill:] Yeah, but they only pay for the first one. [Sue:] Yeah. [Kevin:] has the time in that division has to put in [Diane:] But there isn't adequate funding for, for [Bill:] Yeah but that was proportional you could proportion it [Sue:] Yeah but proportionate [Bill:] across the county wouldn't it? Still. You need to, it needs to be based on initial one because that's [speaker003:] Yes. [Bill:] where the funding is. [Cath:] But what I'm saying is the more you do of first ones the more you'll do a second ones. [Sue:] Oh that's right, yes [Bill:] Yes. [Sue:] but the proportion'll be the same? [Bill:] But it's still proportional isn't it? [Cath:] Yeah yeah. [Bill:] Yeah, is that my pen by the way? [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Cath:] It is not it was given to me by a nice gentleman from Napier College doing [Sue:] Oh he [Cath:] C E T. [Sue:] plays this trick Cath, don't fall for it. [Bill:] No I, I, I had one like that, I really liked that and it just looked like that. [Cath:] You probably had one like that, I've got about twenty in the c drawer at home. He retired after the last C E T and he gave me all his pens and stuff. [Bill:] Alright, okay. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] Plus they've changed the name it's not a polytechnic any more. [Cath:] Yeah that's [Bill:] Yes quite a lot of them. Redundant [Cath:] He's liaison officer for the polytechnic he's not at. [Sue:] Which polytechnic was it? [Cath:] Napier. [Sue:] Oh oh well. [Bill:] Which is a good idea. [Sue:] Oh I know the man you mean now. Yes. Nice man yes. [Cath:] [LAUGHTER] such a sweetie. [Sue:] Erm anyway back to the er what we were talking about. [Bill:] sorry about that. [Sue:] oh yes I know what I was going to say, something else I mentioned to Keith was that one of the busiest members of staff that we've got in many ways I think is Gail. And that she, you know her, her, since she's taken on this special needs and I think before with Colette as well, that this special needs role has really mushroomed. [Bill:] Mm mm. [Sue:] And that I, I wouldn't be adverse, I know it means you know you, you, if you put s some extra into one thing you've got to take it away from somewhere else, but I, I, I would be quite happy to see them look at special needs and whether we actually need even more careers officer time for that. [Bill:] Mm I think the thing with that was it was to some extent clouded before wasn't it? [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] Because Colette could be flexible with a wide E P [Sylvia:] Yes. [Sue:] That's right. [Bill:] and, and do it [Sue:] Yes. [Kevin:] Yeah. [Bill:] as, as required. [Kevin:] Yes. [Bill:] Whereas Gail's more definite commitments she can't be as flexible. [Sue:] Or if you had a person that was just half time maybe doing it. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] But it's been really hard for her to juggle. [Kevin:] There is the er the other way of looking at this that you can either change the er sort of C O balance or you can give her some clerical time, because if she can identify clerical work I mean like Diane [Diane:] Mm. [Bill:] erm who helps Woody helps, helps Jackie [Sue:] Yeah [Bill:] erm used to help Colette a little bit. [Sue:] Mm does she no longer help Gail? [Bill:] And I was trying to explore this, I haven't had time to explore [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] this, to see whether Diane can help Gail as well cos if Gail said, fine I can then start identifying some of my work which I can then tr train Diane up to do, you know phone calls and stuff and things, [Sue:] Yeah. [Bill:] which will really take a lot of time. [Sue:] Mm. [Diane:] Well it makes sense cos it must be Jackie's. [Sue:] Well that's right. [Bill:] And so we could possibly you know just increase Diane's time a little bit, which would really help Gail. [Sue:] Mm mm. [Bill:] And that may be the answer [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] I'm not sure. [Sue:] Monica's section is, I don't know how fair it is, but a lot of the pressure that was previously on Steve and before him on Margaret has actually gone to Gail's post. [Bill:] Yeah. [Cath:] Mm. [Kevin:] Mm and a lot of the pressure [Sue:] Because it's the peripheral thing isn't it? It's, it's the, the [Kevin:] it's the follow up it's the phone calling [Sue:] Yeah. [Kevin:] and the follow up of cases [Sylvia:] Yeah. [Kevin:] that needs to be time consuming [Sue:] It's, it's Jackie now in a sense that, it's a bit easier for her to s to say, this client is definitely mine,i i this client clearly has a special need, whereas Gail's dealing with the peripheral ones, [Sylvia:] Mm [Sue:] have they got a problem or not? [Bill:] Yeah and it's more the job-seeker side [Sue:] Yes. [Bill:] than, than the [Kevin:] Follow up [Sue:] That's right. [Bill:] th than the F E side. [Kevin:] Mm mm. [Sue:] Yeah. [Bill:] So. [Sue:] What do you think Sylvia? Cos you have been involved with special needs here [Sylvia:] Hmm. [Sue:] and I mean I know Gail has had difficulty in having much of an input in this office. [Sylvia:] Yeah, I don't know really Sue I mean er... I'm not sure it's, it's difficult to say how, how it's changed really [Bill:] The thing is that it, in this office we, we tend to pick 'em up between Sylvia and myself really [Sylvia:] Yeah. [Bill:] because of the experience [speaker003:] Mm. [Bill:] here [Sylvia:] That's right. [Bill:] that Gail, Gail does the, the spot in the college. [speaker003:] Mm. [Bill:] Erm [Sylvia:] Th that's another thing you see I, I don't really know what work is done in Selby [Sue:] Mm. [Sylvia:] to be honest. [Bill:] No. [Sue:] Cos they're mainly in college [Sylvia:] Because never any any contact. It's, it's rarely that Gail, I don't think I've ever seen Gail in here. [speaker003:] Mm. [Sylvia:] Th I mean she might have been in and out of [Bill:] She just pops in to pick units up but [Cath:] She just pops in to pick units up basically. [Sylvia:] But erm... so, so it's difficult to know exactly what's happening now, and unless I see it in the office. [Bill:] But it's like the residential school ones like from and places like that. They actually make an appointment for, for for, well I've seen 'em [Sylvia:] Yeah yeah yeah. [Bill:] because they're returning to the area. They what's available in the area so I've, I've seen them [Diane:] That's right yeah. [Bill:] erm so I don't think there is a, the role required in the Selby area in the same sense and [Sylvia:] No no no [Bill:] I think one of the things we need to look at when we look at case loads is whether Gail is the appropriate person to be dealing with the college? I think we've mentioned this before? [Sue:] Mm yes, yeah. [Bill:] Erm and I've already sounded Julie out about that. [Sue:] We've got to find ways of reducing Gail's workload next year. [Bill:] Yeah [Sue:] Definitely. But she's, she's got to relinquish a few things herself. That's part of the problem really. [Bill:] That's true cos I've er [Diane:] She's always been an industrious hard-working careers officer [Sue:] Yes [Diane:] and there's no getting away from it. [Bill:] Yeah. [Diane:] Doing more than's expected of her. [Sue:] Yeah. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] Erm... I, I just get this feeling, you know one would expect that year eleven is a reasonable way of working out what the, the sort of workload is, and you would think that special needs would actually be something that really related quite nicely [speaker003:] Mm. [Sue:] to year eleven, but I just seem to get the feeling that we, we [Bill:] Do they give extra weighting for special needs? [Sue:] Yes we, our, our [Bill:] Wh what? [Sue:] funding is on a [Kevin:] Three times. [Sue:] three to one ratio, yes. [Sylvia:] You see when Steve used to erm come down to Selby I mean there were, there were occasions when I used to go into the college with him and sit in on some of his interviews. [Sue:] Mm. [Sylvia:] So that when the kids left th they knew who I was [Sue:] Right. [Sylvia:] and he used to come in here and, and if it, if Y T or, or jobs you know whatever it was going to be, they, they all come in and they knew who Steve is [Sue:] Yes. [Sylvia:] and that's going back sort of three [Sue:] Yes. [Sylvia:] three years or so. [Bill:] But that probably stopped when I started going in didn't it? [Sylvia:] Yes yeah. [Bill:] And, and we've not actually invested that time back in. [Sylvia:] That's right, yeah. [Bill:] Er [Sue:] What about Jackie, does she come down here at all? [Diane:] Now and again, she came in the other day to meet a, a [Sylvia:] Yes she does, [Diane:] young lad, to interview him. [speaker003:] Mm. [Bill:] It's occas very occasionally. [Sylvia:] It's occasionally, mm. [Diane:] It's very very occasionally, it's normally to see a one-off. [Sylvia:] Yes. [Sue:] Yeah. [Bill:] Cos she showed up, a lot of them show tendency at home or er say some of the ones she's just asked us to see in the office anyway. [Cath:] And she got to school [Bill:] In fact [Cath:] and actually wanted, there's one and two at Braydon I know that she's [Bill:] And there's one that we're picking up which, which Sylvia's gonna go to a case conference next week, social services. Erm who was one of hers who returned to the area is in Wetherby at the moment. [speaker003:] Mm. [Bill:] But he's due to come out. [Sue:] Th the big growth area in this seems to be, have been the post sixteen, the F E, special needs, cos that's Gail's biggest problem in York, two really big [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] C P V E courses. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] But part of that problem is that I don't think the course tutors do perhaps as much as they might, I mean they do nowhere near as much as Shirley does [Diane:] Shirley. [Sue:] in [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] Selby. And it's difficult you know where we're having to make, fill gaps that really aren't ours to fill [Sylvia:] Mm. [Sue:] in a sense [Bill:] Yes. [Sue:] but Gail can't do her job properly unless she actually does that. [Diane:] That's right. [Sue:] Er anyway [speaker003:] [cough] [Sue:] moving on, just a couple more things were on this agenda. It's twenty to twelve, erm Y D P just really erm having now come to an end. [Bill:] [sneeze] [Sue:] Keith obviously is still continuing because s again some money was found to keep his, to keep paying him for another few months. I'm not sure exactly what he is doing erm [Kevin:] Isn't he investigating erm [Sue:] training projects. [Kevin:] training projects? [Sue:] I think he could be, yeah. [Kevin:] Yeah, I know that was part of his. [Sue:] Yeah. Erm he's actually reporting to the May C S M T about the Y D P, presenting his final report [Bill:] That should be interesting. [Sue:] on the Y D P. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] So [Bill:] Erm [Sue:] I don't know what will happen to him when his money runs out. [Bill:] Mm. [Sue:] Erm [Bill:] Mm. [Kevin:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] I don't want to say anything about this at all [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] Just bite your tongue Kev [Kevin:] because if I say anything I'm just keeping quiet here. [Sue:] Well I think that it's, it's a shame that the Y D P did come to an end really, because I mean I know there are a lot of problems with it, but I think that Keith was doing a fairly good job of trying to resolve some of them [Kevin:] Yes. [Sue:] and that we do, training credits are going to come [speaker003:] Mm mm mm. [Sue:] and everybody seems to keep burying their head in the sa well when I say everybody I mean the Tech particularly are burying their head in the sand, they don't seem to want to invest anything in preparing for, they're called Youth Credits now aren't they? Erm but before we know it they will be on top of us. [Cath:] Mm. [Bill:] But the,th when we had the Y D P conference at Scarborough, Valerie was saying that the government was looking at career education. And the way she was talking it looked like they were gon they were going to put some more and invest some time, money [Kevin:] Ah. [Bill:] into careers education in the, in the schools er [Sue:] Did it? [Bill:] in, in, in anticipation of training credits. Erm because people were saying you know the Y D P's coming to an end but [Sue:] Yeah [Bill:] you know what, what next [Sue:] yeah. [Bill:] but she'd already partially answered that question by saying, [Sue:] Right. [Bill:] yeah okay it's being looked at. I mean whether they decide to do anything [Sue:] Mm. [Bill:] on it is another matter. [Kevin:] Can I just ask you, what date is it for training credits starting? [Bill:] It's ninety six. [Diane:] Yeah [Kevin:] They actually [Diane:] but that is the leaving, that is the,th that date is the [Kevin:] For school leavers [Sylvia:] School leavers that leave in ninety six. [Kevin:] Ninety six will actually have training credits? [Diane:] Yeah, so unless you've started doing something [Kevin:] ninety five. [Diane:] from at least the previous September. [Kevin:] Ninety four. [Cath:] Yeah. [Kevin:] In fact yes it's ninety four isn't it? [Diane:] Cos you're actually preparing for the credits bef the year, the academic year before aren't you? [Bill:] And is it just, I mean does training credits just go through year eleven or is there preparation work in year ten for it? [Kevin:] That depends on, I mean talking about action planning and [Bill:] contract with the government, [LAUGHTER] [Kevin:] at that stage I suppose, won't it? [Bill:] I depend on how they decide to fund you. Whether you're funded on year eleven or year ten. [Sue:] Yeah or post sixteen which seems to be the flavour of the month at the moment because of the high drop out. Which seems a but cock-eyed somehow to me. [Bill:] Mhm. Mm. [Sue:] There's a lot of unknown at the moment [Bill:] So we're in ninety three ninety four we've got about a year and a bit before we actually have to start really doing something [Kevin:] That, I mean they're setting up the County Working, a County Working Group again aren't they? [Sue:] Yeah. [Kevin:] Er [Cath:] I was just trying work out when Robert left school and whether he would be the first lot, but he won't be. [Sue:] Mm. [Kevin:] Ah, no little guinea pigs. [LAUGHTER] [Cath:] Just trying to work it out in my head he'd be [Sue:] Mm. [Cath:] leaving ninety five,. [Diane:] Year nine now [Kevin:] So he'd just make it [LAUGHTER] [Cath:] So it must be the year more before. [Kevin:] Yeah. [Diane:] If he's year nine now. [Cath:] Yeah. [Sue:] Yeah it's a it's an L E A wide working group isn't it? [Kevin:] Hmm. [Sue:] That Paul is actually on himself I think. [Bill:] Yes. [Kevin:] Is this national then? [Sue:] Oh and it's, it's L E A tech [Cath:] Mm. [Sue:] isn't it? Is it? [Kevin:] Yes yes it [Bill:] all go together then they'll be some sort of erm [Sue:] Well yeah but you see that the trouble is they've been now two if not three pilot phases [speaker003:] Phases, yeah. [Sue:] and there can't be that many authorities left that aren't already involved. So I don't think there will be a big national impact, it'll just be the last few people coming in at the tail end. [Bill:] Well there's only sort of erm I mean who else is round here doing it? I mean Bradford went for the initial [Sue:] Bradford yeah and and Kirklees their, their recent recruitment was for that wasn't it? That's what [Bill:] Mm mm. [Sue:] got a job after. [Bill:] I mean my impression is that the resource has come in on this, I mean extra staffing, I mean you need it you can't do it without, [Kevin:] Well they put [Bill:] actually there's money coming in this. [Kevin:] Yeah they put additional money in on the pilots but [speaker003:] Yeah. [Kevin:] whether they'll actually put additional money in [Cath:] When it becomes [Sue:] That's right. [Cath:] Yeah. [Sue:] You usually get more money to pilot something you see [Kevin:] Mm [Sue:] like T V E I. [Sylvia:] Yes. [Kevin:] Mm. [Sue:] The earlier stages of something [Kevin:] Yeah.... [Sue:] because once it's, it happens erm it sort of, it becomes law doesn't it really? Because if it's written into reforms and so on. Then you know if you've got to do it they're not going to actually give you any more resources to do it because you can't say no. [Diane:] That's what the teachers are talking about at the moment aren't they? The National Curriculum [speaker003:] Mm. [Diane:] same sort of thing. [Kevin:] Should never gone back to blanket. [Bill:] have blanket interviewing now haven't we? [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Well there's a lot of there is a lot of, there are a lot of things that are pointing to this at the moment. Erm there's a, a, one of the other things on any other business that I was just gonna come to was a Thematic Survey, that is being carried out nationally. Alan and I spent all morning on Wednesday trying to complete this survey questionnaire that ask questions about erm [reading] how much time do careers officers in North Yorkshire spend, for example, teaching careers lessons []? We decided to put that none of our careers officers spend any time teaching careers lessons, that we deliver guidance through classroom situations and things like this, but we do not teach careers. Erm because we realized it was politically loaded that [speaker003:] Mm. [Sue:] you know you send a form back that says we teach careers lessons, immediately you're told, right you can stop doing that, that's not your job to do that. [Kevin:] Mm, so you have to really be careful with [Sue:] Oh yes but this questionnaire was absolutely incredible and every service nationally and Wales and Ireland have been asked to complete it. Scotland seem to have got away with it at the moment. Erm [Kevin:] Right. [Sue:] the questions like ev everything that you've got to say how much time is spent on it and then how much does that cost you. And it's really to provide, according to Derek, it's to provide the Secretary of State with some ideas of costings of, if she decides the new careers services to run careers conventions, she would make that part of the specification and she would know how much that that was likely to cost her. [Bill:] Mm. So she's really sort of getting her plans together, her information base together to... [tape change]

[speaker001:] This is Aural History Project tape number one of Mr. My name is, the date is the second of March nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number five of Ipswich Docks.... before we talk about your working life at Ipswich Docks, could you tell me where you were born. [George:] Well I was born at and erm I went to school at then at the later part of my life I went to Hemel Hempstead and then I left only for four months and went to er work for an ironmonger at ten shillings a week. I worked for a month [cough] then I went to the dyers and cleaners and I came home to Ipswich in the, on the Easter time and I started work as a turnboy on the dredger at Ipswich at thirty five shillings a week for fi sixty six and a half hours a week, starting from Monday morning at six o'clock to six o'clock Monday night. [speaker001:] Can I just go back to [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] is that? [George:] yes. [speaker001:] Where is that? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Where is it? [George:] down at the bottom of opposite the. [speaker001:] I see. Wh when were you born? [George:] I was born on the twenty eighth of December nineteen ten. [speaker001:] Can you remember anything of the area in your early childhood? [George:] Yeah I was called a roamer find me. [speaker001:] Where did you used to roam? [George:] I used to roam all just round the country, round this area, which was all fields at that time and when you got at top, top of you were more or less in the country. [speaker001:] Were there any houses about? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Were there any houses about? [George:] Oh yes they start, just start to build the er this estate. [speaker001:] What, what estate is this? [George:] Well this is, well they call this the [speaker001:] [cough] [George:] part of the [speaker001:] [cough] [George:] hasn't any proper name like this cos these are private houses and estate are council houses but the built at top of was called the Old Plantation and the Old Plantation that's when the first houses were built then of course when you er find the company first started which er Old Plantation is right opposite erm and when you came along past you then branched off to that's all fields and you came down as far as and then you branched off to. of what they call, that we call the. [speaker001:] What were the? [George:] Well were just the, all just common ground owned by they own all that ground. [speaker001:] What was the like? [George:] well that's where all rough grass and like erm like erm gorse bushes and ferns. [speaker001:] Did that run down to the river? [George:] Yes it did it run down to the river and we used to have to write to to get a permit to camp on there for the week but then there used to be an old, the old foreman of he used to come round every Saturday night, have you got your permit? If you hadn't you had to clear off and that's when we used to make a tent out of anything, old sacks, bits of tarpaulin, anything then it's covered over with erm. [speaker001:] How long would you camp up there? [George:] For about a week. [speaker001:] This was dur [George:] [cough] [speaker001:] this was during the school holidays was it? [George:] school holidays we only used to get a month they get about six weeks now I think but no we used to get a month's holiday then. [speaker001:] Was that in the summer? [George:] In the summer time August, August was the erm was the month's holiday. [cough] [speaker001:] Did you have any other school holidays? [George:] No only at Easter and Whitsun, Christmas. [speaker001:] How long did you [George:] We used to have a week that's all. [speaker001:] What else did you do in your holidays? [George:] I do anything, roam about, go harvesting on the harvest fields. [speaker001:] Go harvesting? [George:] Yeah catching rabbits a hedge and cut down a stick you know at the corn on the old and if we were lucky we used to get erm we used to er seat the old fella on the boiler and have a ride round on one of the horses. [speaker001:] Did you ride on the horse's back? [George:] Yeah we used to just put an old sack on and more or less bareback. [speaker001:] The farmer never minded? [George:] No he didn't mind no. [speaker001:] Did you catch many rabbits? [George:] Oh yeah plenty and we caught them all but we weren't allowed to keep them. [speaker001:] Why not? [George:] No well we used to kill them with a stick but of course they used to lay the rabbits out at that time to see how many they caught cos that was a little bit of perks for the farm labourers they used to buy a rabbit for sixpence, then they go up to ninepence for a rabbit. Now today I suppose they are about eighty pence something like that. [speaker001:] So they didn't mind you catching them? [George:] Well they didn't mind catching them that these here gamekeepers they come on more or less at the finish of the harvest over the field with the guns what was left. [speaker001:] You went to school in Ipswich? [George:] I went to school at ordinary time from as a kid and then up to till you're about eight years old, then from eight years eight, nine, then you, I went to for about last four years. [speaker001:] Did you say school? [George:] school. [speaker001:] Where is that? [George:] Well school is just down, was down, near the gasworks. [speaker001:] You say was, is it no longer there? [George:] No that's not that school. [speaker001:] What was the school like? [George:] Hard. [speaker001:] Hard? [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] What the lessons you mean? [George:] I mean they'd, they'd, I mean the lessons and if you done anything wrong well you get, you get the cane and anything else. [speaker001:] What sort of thing did you have to do wrong to get the cane? [George:] Oh anything, if you was talking in the classroom that was the cane. [speaker001:] You got the cane for actually talking? [George:] Oh yeah talking yeah. [speaker001:] Did you get the cane often? [George:] No not very often. [speaker001:] What sort of lessons did you have, did [George:] What lessons, anything arithmetic, mental arithmetic, dictation which I was bad at, my school report was about fair, fair, fair, poor, poor, poor, that's what mine was, I only got about one excellent. [speaker001:] Did you do any practical lessons? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Did you have any practical lessons? [George:] Yes we went to erm we used to go through the, the manual for woodwork. No it was what they called the manual that's for learning woodwork, that was once a week. [speaker001:] What was the manual? [George:] Well that was er plane the bit of wood, learn to plane the bit of wood straight or saw the wood straight and then there is a little, the iron part of it was where you made little any little bits of iron them there to make pretty patterns on it. We had two or three years like that from when you was about ten until you was fourteen and that was in that was in the place called. , that was in the middle, more or less in the middle of the town. [speaker001:] And you called that the manual? [George:] The manual school, yes. [speaker001:] You went up there purposely just for woodwork? [George:] That's right, yes. Say about, about half a day a week. That's all you went for. [speaker001:] Did other schools use [George:] Cos all the other schools they filled in the rest part of the week. [speaker001:] So you were all different schools? [George:] All the different schools had er cos then we had, used to compete against er all sports and we used to get an afternoon football we used to march from up to the and erm play football but we didn't go up there until at half-time at erm play-time so they went to school at two o'clock and at half past three then that'd be our break, then we'd go up to erm football till five o'clock. [speaker001:] Was five o'clock your usual finishing time? [George:] Usual finishing time at school five o'clock. [speaker001:] What time did you start in the morning? [George:] At eight o'clock. We start our school at eight o'clock, at nine o'clock it used to be prayers in the hall. [speaker001:] They were long days? [George:] They were long days at school. [speaker001:] How old were you then? [George:] How old was I then, nine or ten. [speaker001:] And then from that school you went on to another one? [George:] I went to Hemel Hempstead er a school called in Hemel Hempstead that was only from the August till December when I left school and then the erm then the Headmistress, cos we had a Headmistress there cos it was a mixed school, and she recommended me for this here errand boy's job, his name was. [speaker001:] You took the job? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] You took the job did you [George:] I took the job yes, ten shillings a week. [speaker001:] Where was this? [George:] That was in Hemel Hempstead. [speaker001:] Did you like it? [George:] No I didn't cos I was on, I used to be on a oil card delivering paraffin oil round the countryside and then cos I used to stink apparently and then I got this job at er on a pushbike [speaker001:] [cough] [George:] unclear lot cleaner, I got ten shillings from them and a shilling from the next door for cleaning their windowsill every morning. That's a small little homemade bakers then on the on the Easter [speaker001:] Thank you [George:] My father come to see me at one holiday and the Easter time he see something happen and they didn't like him and cos all my as cabin boy. [speaker001:] So you came straight back to Ipswich? [George:] Come straight back to Ipswich [speaker001:] And you then started work? [George:] I started work on the dredger. [speaker001:] Mm mm what did your, what did your father do when you were a child? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] What was your father's occupation? [George:] Oh he was on the river he he was always connected with the river my father and in the First World War they towed the dredger from here to Ramsgate and er he was, he was in the Army but he was connected to the Inland Water Transport and cos they were dredging out the harbour at Ramsgate. I have known him to come home he's had a weekend off with a kitbag full of fish, beautiful fish he used to bring home cos no sooner on the train and right home [speaker001:] Mm mm [George:] and they all come home lovely and fresh, plaice and different types of fish. [speaker001:] And that all used to end up on your dinner plate? [George:] That did yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Was your father a dredgerman then? [George:] He was a dredgerman yes, see he was on the river first then he went on the dredger and course that's before my time and that was during the First World War he was on he was at Ramsgate. Course then he finished, they finished dredging at night on, at nineteen thirty two cos they said it was costing too much the did and erm they were building some new cranes down there, so I said to my father, and he was very friendly with the Harbourmaster, he said erm was there any chance of getting one of them cranes so when he went and saw the Harbourmaster he said no he said the boy don't know nothing about electricity either so he said no nor did no other buggers he said they didn't know anything about it so he got the job. He didn't want to know anything he wanted to drive the crane so he give me a start. [speaker001:] so when you started at the dock, you started as what? [George:] I started as a cabin boy on the dredger. [speaker001:] What did that involve? [George:] Well that erm keeping the galley fire which I let out several times. [speaker001:] Was it a coal fire? [George:] Coal fire and er scrubbed the cabin out like that, soda water and soft soap. [speaker001:] When you let the fire out did you get into trouble? [George:] Yeah I just swore at my father did well I said getting up at six o'clock in the morning every day and then go to work till six at night cos during the day I get tired so I use to lay down on his bunk... then he'd lift his little hat a way up and he'd say er bloody fire's out. Cos he'd want a cup of tea. [speaker001:] So you cooked on the fire as well? [George:] Yeah cooked, we done everything on the fire [speaker001:] Mm mm [George:] yeah old galley stove, galley oven just like the old fashioned oven it was, so you had your full hearth and used to bake in the oven and of course you cook on the top, and you had about five different rings cos the fire is to put the damper in the chimney to make the heat go round the oven. [cough] [speaker001:] You used to cook all your own meals on that? [George:] Do all our own meals yes, my mother she used to mix up, to say that we want er suet pudding and erm she had mixed up ready and put the cloth on top and all I got to do is just boil the water and just stick it in. [speaker001:] That was handy then. [George:] She used to make me a plum duff, the old currant duffs and anything like that my mother would make for us. [speaker001:] You never went hungry on board then? [George:] Never went hungry, no my mother always have a good, always used to have a good table, very good, we were a very lucky family, anybody used to come in our house on a weekend they always thought there was a party every weekend. Well my father was earning a good money. I mean women, men in the warehouse they were on about two guineas a week. Now my father was earning five pounds seven and six, twelve and six a week so there was a big difference in money weren't there and then you see be that list when they finished dredging he had to drop right back two pounds thirteen a week. [speaker001:] What else did you do just as a cabin boy? [George:] What else if I, I have to go and relieve er if I want er to only work down the cabin and it come to meal times cos we carried on dredging from six in the morning we do al all the winters round cos they eat on the dredger they used to eat three winches four winches on the dredger cos they'd heave the dredger across the river and back again,wo when they come to meal times I used to have to go on and relieve the man what was driving that winch and I used t cos the er er chins coming round the barrel of the winch they used to override and I used to have a handle to knock them clear. [speaker001:] Why did you have to knock them clear? [George:] Well if you didn't there'd be so much change on the bail that they all start to fall off and there'd be all one big muddle cos that and as chain coming down that used to come right down into the chain locker to the bottom of the ships. [speaker001:] What was the chain locker? [George:] Well a chain locker is where all the spare chain used to like coil up [speaker001:] So it came in and it went round [George:] round the barrel about three times round the barrel then right down into the chain locker but if you kept, let it ride what we used to call let it ride well well now it get so big then you have to run it all off cos you had one lever, that's what you had and the steam valve could have all steamed. [speaker001:] All the machinery was [George:] All steam. [speaker001:] operated by steam [George:] All re even the engine room was steam cos you had the bucket depth of dredging on that ladder was thirty six feet that's what dredger can go down so far with the buckets going round and they used to dredge about thirty six feet. [speaker001:] Actually go down and thirty six foot of water? [George:] Down yes. [speaker001:] Dredge down? [George:] Could do yes. [speaker001:] What do you mean by the ladder? [George:] The ladder is where the buckets er er run on you see that's the ladder like that from what they call the top tumbler what used to be the top tumbler used to have five sides [speaker001:] What do you mean by tumbler? [George:] Well a tumbler is where they, the buckets used to go over the top and empty into a chute into the hopper... and er went cos it was on a continual chain you see cos you had a bucket two links, a bucket two links, a bucket two links, all the way round and that's how you used to dredge all the time round and round and round and that's how it went over to the top tumbler cos you had a bottom tumbler on this layer and a top tumbler, otherwise you couldn't dredge otherwise and that top tumbler, I am certain it had five, five sides to it because at one, at one time you'd tip a bucket on one then you'd get two lengths so it kept the tumbler more or less equal all the way round the wear and tear of it. [speaker001:] And so that, would you lower the, the ladder into the water? [George:] Yeah you'd lower that down. My father used to have what they call a lead line that used to be a wire with a all marked with feet and fathoms on and sound and [speaker001:] So you had to [George:] And then when you dredged across again cos you used t you always went er, you always had er er say every foot he had with a piece of spunyarn in the wire [speaker001:] Spunyarn? [George:] Spunyarn, yes [speaker001:] What's spunyarn? [George:] Well that's like er tarred rope [cough] that's what it was and er used to put a piece through the wire every foot and when you come to six feet there'd be a piece of leather, cut in cut one piece of leather. Then you had this next fathom, the second fathom had the leather cut in two and then have different colours at every feet as well. [speaker001:] And this, so these were attached to what? [George:] Just a bit of wire. [speaker001:] Just a piece of wire? [George:] And of course he used have it in his hand in a loop and he used to top it over the side with a big lead weight on and that and he, he'd know how much deep the er river was. [speaker001:] Was that recognised tools [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] What that a recognised tool for judging the depth? [George:] Oh yes yes you out of that yes. See and then in the finish they went on the wire, they went to chain. [speaker001:] And how did they use chains? [George:] Well they chain just the same way, just marks on it and [speaker001:] Was there any benefit in changing over to chain? [George:] Well I think there's the stretching of it you see, I mean wire w after a certain time it would stretch a bit [speaker001:] Yes. [George:] where a chain wouldn't, that'd wear a little bit but not too much. [speaker001:] So as a cabin boy you had to relieve [George:] I had to relieve, relieve the other deck hands for their meals and I started cleaning their cabin out as well. [speaker001:] Did they all have their own cabins? [George:] Well they had one big long one, they did. [speaker001:] And you had to clean [George:] And I had to clean them and I had to get a bucket of water and sluice it down with a hard broom and. I used to go down the villages. [speaker001:] Into the villages? [George:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What are the villages? [George:] The villages are at the bottom of the ship. Cos then you come to your floor and then your sides used to go up villages on a ship. [speaker001:] And was the water there to go down into the villages? [George:] Yes, cos they usually all water underneath there and that used to be pumped out, every so often the engine room would pump all that out and to heat any water up the cabins there used to be a, a small pump what used to pump the fresh water into the boiler and I used to have a a piece of er copper off that and just turn the steam on a little bit put it into a bucket of cold water and then instead of driving the pump that'd go into the, the er bucket and heat the water and boil it. [speaker001:] And that was your own invention was it? [George:] Yes. But the hoppers they used to be, er two hoppers we had two of them hoppers, we had the er one called the [phonecall starts] Hello, hello girl, yes please a dozen, yeah, er no I don't think so, no I don't think so mate, no, yeah are you on holiday this week? Oh well might have perhaps will you have a spare day... No I want to go out for a meal... No, but I been home but at dinner time just. Yeah alright yeah I mean if your car's in you can take mine do it a bit of good. Right oh see you later. Cheerio [phonecall ends]. That's John, me boy, he's a docker down the erm down the dock he got a weeks holiday this week, so I took me other boy and me daughter out last week and erm we'd left her with dogs so I said we'd take them out one day perhaps when he get his holiday. [speaker001:] Oh I see so you are going out with him later on? [George:] Yeah he'll see what his wife say. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You say he's a docker? [George:] He's a docker. [speaker001:] Actually handling the cargo? [George:] Well he drive these, they don they don't handle much now. They erm, what they do they drive these big Tugmasters now with these lorries so that they plant all these erm forty foot trailers with er with er erm with a container on and place them on the ship. So they load the ships down there now. [speaker001:] Oh like the roll on roll off [George:] Roll on, exactly yeah. [speaker001:] ferry? [George:] That's right, yeah. [speaker001:] It's a lot easier now isn't it? [George:] Oh it is a lot easier cos that all they have to do is run on, drop 'em come off again. [speaker001:] Going back to your life as cabin boy, what other duties did you have to perform? [George:] On the. Well shipping Angus, so you know when the dredgers go on er er er creeping ahead, see we used to have er what we call the head wire there used to be a wire which was all stretched out say about half a mile and what you s and erm and all according what erm how much mud you were dredging for the depth of water and then my father would give the signal to say right, cos on the, on the head wire used to have a pull, we call the pulls and they were like er a jutted piece off the wheel and he'd say five pulls ahead and we'd say one two three four five right and we went ahead with it and then when we were dredging sidewards you see, used to sidewards, you never went ahead with it, not all the time you c you went sidewards across the river, and erm once you got ahead your side chains they moving up cos you got so far ahead th that the side chains weren't much good to you, so you had to then move your side chains so you got a little off the mud in an old boat and then re further up the river. [speaker001:] You say pick your anchors up in an old boat? [George:] Yes. You see well the point was when you pick 'em up erm we had a sm we had a big boat, what we called hanger boat, a very heavy boat and that used to have a wooden so therefore we used to pull it up by hand and pull it ove on a little barrel with a hand power that's what we used to do and once we got the anchor in board we'd pull the chain in by hand and then rerun it again right on to the mud and on the anchor again. [speaker001:] So you actually had to go on to a smaller boat? [George:] Smaller boat, yes. [speaker001:] Go up and get the anchor [George:] That's right [speaker001:] and pull it in to the small boat? [George:] Pull it in to the small boat, lay it on a box and then we'd pull the chain in by hand and then we'd rerun it further up the river. [speaker001:] Why did you do that? [George:] Well I mean if you er, if your chain was going too far astern you might pull the dredger astern too much so gotta keep your chain up the river, that's what you go got to do all the time. [speaker001:] So that was your job as well? [George:] That was my, that was part of our job. [speaker001:] Wasn't that hard work? [George:] That was hard work all the time, my hands my hands used to chap on the backs, used to chap hands and that was only, I was over the wind, I wind and, and er when I used to scrub the cabin out which was with washing soda and soft soap and when you went along cos that was you get, you get erm, ordinary washing soda on the back of your hands and they didn't supply anything then. The docker... docker mission wouldn't supply you with water boots we had to supply our own, now today they supply them with everything even underlinen I think nearly now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] What was the wages like []? [George:] Our wages? [speaker001:] As a cabin boy? [George:] Well I got thirty five shillings a week and I was doing six hou twelve hours a day from Monday till Friday and twelve and a half on a Saturday. [speaker001:] And how old were you? [George:] Fourteen years old. [speaker001:] Was that good money for a fourteen year old? [George:] That was good wages then [speaker001:] [cough] [George:] Apprentice apprentice boys in th in the foundry were only getting five shillings a week. Apprentice boy, my mate he er our friend dead and gone, he's a good turner that runs er er reels, yet erm that's all he got was five shillings a week after er no seven year's apprenticeship. [speaker001:] So you were on really good money? [George:] So I, I was earning good money. [clears throat] [speaker001:] Do you think that's why they asked you to buy your own protective clothing or was that normal? [George:] unclear get to buy your own I, I er didn't have rubber boots, I had big leather boots up to me thigh, that's what I bought and that leather then they didn't have nails in the shoes in the, in the bottom they had wooden pegs, so that the, your leather was held by wooden pegs and the... and the leather at that time were the thigh boots, you could roll them right the way down,. [speaker001:] Were they specially made? [George:] Specially made, yes. [speaker001:] Did you have them made in Ipswich? [George:] No, we bought them all secondhand well they used to come round with this, not secondhand stuff but all new stuff and he used to go round the dock selling different er water boot socks and sweaters and he dealer. [speaker001:] How did he get round the docks? [George:] Oh he used to have his pushbike, go round. [speaker001:] What bicycle with a box on? [George:] Yes, never had a motor car then, nobody had a motor car then only the Harbourmaster and he had a little old Austin Ruby, the Harbourmaster did, but other duty Harbourmaster he had a motorbike and sidecar. He used to go to work on pushbike. He lived in at that time just over the road er down the road here and then something went wrong during the war [clears throat] that was over my father and er cos matter of fact when my father come off the dredger erm the Harbourmaster wanted to give him er he give him the push and turned round and he said my father name was. [speaker001:] ? [George:] , that was his nickname and er he went into the office and he told the Harbourmaster he said if you don't employ back again he said I'm off and out and he took me father back again. [speaker001:] He got his job back? [George:] He got his job back, you see, and erm [speaker001:] Do you know why he was called? [George:] No I don't, no that was just a nickname they give him for years ago, matter of fact I the other day, I was walking up and he called me, so I took me father's name you see, nickname, that was. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Extraordinary, isn't it []? [LAUGHTER] [George:] And me other bro me other uncle he was called. [speaker001:] So the nickname followed on really? [George:] That followed on right through the family but my boys they haven't got that name, cos they older they, old all gone now, old doctors and that. [speaker001:] Going back to the man with the pushbike. Did he come round every week? [George:] Oh yes, that was his living unclear [speaker001:] So he, he was er [George:] Anybody want anything he was there, his name was and he used to run up like er tally, tallyman he was you'd pay at the most ten shillings down about two and six a week, something like that. [speaker001:] What credit? [George:] Yes, so that's, he was round after his money every week. [speaker001:] Oh I see and got wh what sort of things did he sell? [George:] I mean, he sell anything in the clothes line, anything. I know these boots we bought off him they were three pound twelve and six they were. I mean they were lovely boots... I mean a pair of water boots three pounds twelve and six and we used to put them, er make 'em soft, we used to do them over with text oil. That was like er er what you call a linseed oil, they call is text that's some animal's erm oil I think out of the house and cos they used to, used to rub that in and you could them down lovely. [speaker001:] Also made them waterproof as well? [George:] Waterproof as well, yes. [speaker001:] With the oil in them unclear [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] Did you have to wear any other sort of special clothing? [George:] We, when we were dredging, we were dredging now from Cliff Quay and er used to get all this er grey mud and erm and the chalk and when we used to dredge, we got down to chalk er, more or less the depth we wanted to go and anybody dredging down there today if they dredge the chalk at Cliff Quay that's the depth of water you want and erm then we dredged erm just below erm and then we went to Freston [cough] Freston we were dredging peat. Pondoes well you got Pondoes one side and you got Freston on the other and we were dredging up. In that peat there used to be deer's teeth, everything, parts of the jaw, horns, what we were dredging up, then we went further down to erm Downham Reach, that's just before the Cattoes and we were dredging all green clay. [speaker001:] Green clay? [George:] Green clay we were dredging and sometimes you know that wouldn't leave the bucket. The clay wouldn't lea you couldn't clear the buckets, so we used to what we had a grafting tool, that was like a spade but that was, er, that was er, narrow at one end, the spade at the bottom end was a bit narrow so you could cut th cut the clay out of, out the buckets and that was a hard job too. [speaker001:] That was difficult? [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] Was it your job to do that? [George:] Well that was, that was the crew's job you see cos you used to have, they used to be erm, they used to be the master of the ship, my father, and they would still have a mate, he's dead and gone [clears throat] and there was myself one side on the starboard side on a winch and we had two men right aft on the after winch and they used to have to look after three chains. Cos you had a stern chain and two side chains. Because you had to have the stern anchor to keep the buckets off the face of what you was dredging cos if you didn't your dredge'd go ahead too much and er you had big problems there and you wouldn't be able to dredge. [cough] [speaker001:] Did your dredger have a name? Just the [George:] That was just the, yeah, dredger and th the tug was called er Nine 0, the Ninety. Then after that they bought another tug called, then they had another one called the, that was a diesel tug. [speaker001:] What were the other tugs? [George:] Er steam. [speaker001:] Steam? And they... sorry [George:] Cos the the reason they, they er done away with the steam tugs and had a diesel, because a diesel you could start up and er when the dredging finished they tipped the tug at Ipswich and er if they want they one of the big ships up the river, cos then they could start the diesel up quite, right away, whereby a steam tug you a fire there all the time. I mean a steam tug you got to have coal and you got to have the old boiler, old boiler, you got to heat that up for the steam cos that didn't pay then. That was a, that was a tug. [speaker001:] Did the steam always work with the dredger? [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] What was that to move her about? [George:] Well no, that's to, we had two what they call, two dumb hoppers the Roxanne and the Sandbank and those dumb hoppers had to be towed to sea and t take [speaker001:] What do y what do you mean by dumb hopper? [George:] Dumb hoppers well they ain't got any part, everything was hand. [speaker001:] And why did you have them? [George:] Well that's a, that's a thing of that particular day, at that time th th and life erm and then they get what they call, they bought a steam hopper, so the steam hopper would say, could get to sea quicker in half the time the dumb hoppers could and so we were rotating all the time, there used to be one dumb hopper go to sea, one steam hopper and we'd be loading the other dumb hopper and then th course the steam hopper would be back in half the time we'd that and that's how we rotate, day to day. [speaker001:] By the hopper you mean carrying the soil? [George:] Carrying, carrying all the soil to sea. [speaker001:] Oh erm it was dumped at sea was it? [George:] Yeah it was dumped at sea off the Cork, Cork Light... erm Cork Lightship. They used to have an imaginary light er an imaginary mark from Cork Lightship to Walton on the Naze and er the men who bought the Cork Lightship, they would take notice every time that hopper went out there, they'd see when they were dumping cos if that was, if they were a bit cute, some of the boys, they'd dump a bit short of the dumping ground, that's what used to happen, cos they'd report them then to Harwich, Harwich will report them to Harbourmaster at Ipswich, then there'd be a [clears throat] [speaker001:] And who would get into trouble for that? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Well the skipper of the hopper, he get into trouble for that cos he should have gone out to the dumping ground. [speaker001:] And did that often happen? [George:] Oh no that didn't, and cos they got a good job, I mean five pound seven and six a week a skipper's earnings. The mate used to get erm on the dredger the tug and the two dumb hoppers, or the dumb hoppers they used to get four pound five shillings a week [cough] and erm and my father got five pound twelve and six and then it went so long we were given near the end of the dredger and er in the Harbourmaster's wisdom he cut us all down five shillings a week, so we get three pound fifteen shillings. [speaker001:] Why did he cut you down? [George:] Well cos they were getting short of money. [speaker001:] When was this then? [George:] This be about nineteen twenty nine. [speaker001:] Wh why were they getting short of money? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Well cos th the government had allowed them so much I suppose and erm that was costing them so much on wages and that, so they had to cut them down on wages. [speaker001:] So this was a particular project just to river? [George:] That's right and er at that year, that er time, we had a drop of five shillings a week and he had an increase of fifty pound a year. Harbourmaster did. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] How did that go down? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Not very good. That's what he got that was little Irishman. [speaker001:] Were there any problems because of that? [George:] No we couldn't say nothing because I mean that was a time when you had a good job then, unemployment was just the same in the nineteen thirties. I mean nineteen thirty, thirty one was a bad time for employment. [speaker001:] So this job was coming to an end about this time? [George:] That was yeah, that finished in nineteen thirty two. [speaker001:] You were all a bit concerned I suppose? [George:] We were, yes, cos that's when I went on to the crane driving in for a crane and got it you see, that's why I finished up as a crane driver until I went stevedoring. [speaker001:] So go going back to the dredging, did you eventually take over from your father on the dredger? [George:] No, no, my father he finished his dredging harbourmaster, and that's when they finished dredging then. [speaker001:] What else did you have to do on the dredger? [George:] Well anything what was going, anything, change the buckets, on the [clears throat] that used to be every Saturday afternoons, they used to be home. We used to work there from half past twelve till five o'clock at night, taking the bucket out and put another bucket in because the buckets what they used to call the bushes what were connected to the links they used to wear and we used to have to take them, one of them out and used to have a big chain go right the way round and bring the, bring the buckets backwards and they used to loosen up all the, all the pins what used to go through the buckets in the, in the links, so we took them out [clears throat] and then they used to go up to the dock and br they put new bushes in. [speaker001:] Used to bring them up to the dock [George:] Used to bring them up to the dock. [speaker001:] and put them in a boat and bring them back? [George:] Put them up in a boat yeah. They used to, cos they'd put a couple in the old anchor boat what we weren't using it, put a couple in there and they'd tow 'em up to the dock. [cough] [speaker001:] How would you get them into the boat, because they must have been heavy? [George:] Well we had a old wooden crane aboard the dredger, that was all hand power, that's just the old wooden derrick and when they got up to the, up to the dock, they had a, cos they had a crane paint with it or a steam crane. [speaker001:] And they used to come up to the maintenance workshop [George:] maintenance workshop and be done, that used to be the job for the fitters and blacksmiths. [speaker001:] Did you have to wait for it to be done? [George:] No, no, cos we always had so many spare buckets you see. [speaker001:] Oh you carried spares. How large were the buckets? [George:] I would say they be about erm three feet across. That's, that's I'd say three feet across. [speaker001:] And how deep? [George:] Oh about erm three feet deep I reckon they were, I mean to load up er eight hundred tonnes, which we average these hoppers out at, er er we were getting a good soil we'd load up eight hundred tonne in an hour and a half to two hours, between hour and a half to two hours we'd be loaded, that's all depend on what you was dredging, you might be interested in and, and go quicker, if you were dredging greenfly that's be alright you'd, if you dredged peat well that hopper would be full but it wouldn't be half lo it'd be half loaded you see, be half way down to the plimsoll mark. [speaker001:] So, so much lighter? [George:] That's lighter stuff. [speaker001:] If you er dredged ballast, did you used to dump the ballast? [George:] Yes that used to but sometimes they used to bring it up the river and they use a lot the ballast we er did dredge for erm, for the first part of Cliff Quay, used it when they built that. [cough] [speaker001:] You remember Cliff Quay being developed? [George:] I remember it yes. Well before I went to Hemel Hempstead, my father was dredging the first part of the quay at six hundred feet, what we call a six hundred feet, the first part and er I used to take his dinner down, because he'd, he wouldn't have anything cooked aboard the ship. [speaker001:] Why was that? [George:] I don't know but he wouldn't, he wouldn't have it cooked aboard there, my mother used to cook it for him and I'd stagger down in an ordinary shopping basket, in two basins there'd be vegetables in one and his pudding and gravy in the other and I used to take that down for him and he used to come ashore and he used to then go and have it. That weren that weren't far from to er Cliff Quay, do it in about ten minutes on your bike. [speaker001:] How did you get out to the boat? [George:] Well they used to have a little rowing boat and come after it, he used to get one of the lads while they come ashore and got his dinner. [speaker001:] Did they take you back or just the dinner? [George:] No, they just t they just take the, the dinner back. [speaker001:] Did you used to want to go over? [George:] Oh I, I'd gone over several times, oh yes. [speaker001:] [sneeze] Excuse me. [George:] I got swore at many a time, I did. Well I tell you what I was doing, I was in the stern of the boat coming ashore with one oar in the stern of the boat, I was like hell you know, and I was standing on the sculling. [speaker001:] On the [George:] On the seats we'll call it, on the seats of the rowing boat, I was standing on that and my father said to me when I got aboard, don't do that no more, he said, cos he say if that paddle, what we call the paddle, come out of that sculling hole, he said you'll go over the side and the boat will go away from you, he said, you'll be bloody well drowned, which was right never forgot it never. Now it was the truth, I mean when you scull the boat, they call that sculling, rowing, they usually do a figure of eight with one oar and a figure of eight, that's how you do that, that's a hard job to keep that into that here hole at the back of the boat, because [speaker001:] Where was the hole then [George:] The hole on the stern of the boat, see you got your boat come round like that, [speaker001:] From, from a point erm [George:] From the point down to the stern of the boat and then there was a hole in there like that cut out of the wood. [speaker001:] Just like your U shaped. [George:] That's right and put your paddle in that and you scull you had to come down every time and many a time people'd learn that that paddle will come out, but once you got the knack of it you could do it one hand, cos you was cutting down all the time like that's what it was. [speaker001:] So you were, in fact, going backwards, backwards the boat was going forward. [George:] That's right, yeah, that's right you was back to where you were going. [speaker001:] Did you ever have any accidents? [George:] No, no, I scull one hand, like that. [speaker001:] But you used to get in trouble for standing on the seats? [George:] For standing on the, on the seats you see, which I mean my father was right he'd got the experience to know that several men had been drowned like that. [speaker001:] What else did you get in trouble for? [George:] Oh nothing else, no nothing else, well we daren't because I mean my father was so strict, you know you gotta do as your told. [speaker001:] On the dredger what other jobs would you have to do in the way of maintenance, you said you had to repair the buckets. [George:] Buckets, well every night time, when we finished dredging, you had to wash down, wash the decks down cos I mean that the decks used to be covered in mud and slush, so all we had then was an old draw bucket on a bit of rope, over the side, there weren't no hoses then, we used to the bucket and then we used to swing all the mud back in there, in the river. Just wash the decks down. [speaker001:] So you used to put the, drop the bucket down the side [George:] Yes, on a bit.. on a bit of rope [speaker001:] Then haul it back up. [George:] Haul it back up, then chuck it down on the deck [clears throat] [speaker001:] and scrub your decks after. [George:] Scrub the decks clean. [speaker001:] Where was the mud coming from, falling out the bucket? [George:] Co fall out the bucket you see on the... when they over the top tumbler that'd splash on into the chute, there used to be a chute, take it right into the harbour. When that gone down they used to splash cos that used to come underneath the buckets and our cabin hatchway was facing that and many a time that'd come right down the cabin, the mud. [speaker001:] Actually fall down inside the? [George:] That would I mean that'd splash down there. [speaker001:] So it was quite messy on board? [George:] Oh that was messy, you're telling me [clears throat] was messy, I've known cups of tea, you put a cup of tea on there the other cup of tea was there, well we never used to have saucers couldn't afford them, that'd be there a mug of tea and that'd move like that off the table that'd come cos the dredger was shaking so much. [speaker001:] Actually vibrate the whole boat? [George:] That vibrate the whole boat that would do. [speaker001:] Was it noisy? [George:] Noisy, helluva row. [speaker001:] And you liked working on there? [George:] Oh I really enjoyed it, yes. Really enjoyed working there. [clears throat] [speaker001:] Became a way of life for you [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] I would have thought it became a way of life? [George:] Well I think it was I mean that erm we when you dredge from the Causeway I'd say near the Harbourmaster's office and we dredged all the way to Botterman's Bay just below Pinmill and that Botterman's Bay was [clears throat] that's a place where they had and that's where the big ships used to moor then and they used to get.. be lightened, like all grain goods and that used to be loaded into barges by hand and then when it goes so light they used to the fish with about three thousand grain in 'em and then they used to fill them up in the dock, on the same method. [speaker001:] How long did it take you to dredge that length? [George:] Well we dredged them from nineteen twenty five to nineteen thirty two. [speaker001:] And you were dredging all the while? [George:] All the time yes, apart from say about six weeks, used to come in in the winter [clears throat] to repair the... do maintenance on the dredger and then the old harbourmaster would say right, we should have been here for six weeks, he come after a month, he'd say, paint the... cover the rust up he said and bugger off out again. Start dredging, see he wanted to get the job done. I know that on Sunday I was on, on the watch, this weekend, and there was so much ice on the river, our anchor boat which is all made of wood, that's moored up alongside the dredger and when I went along and got, that was about twelve o'clock in the mid-day. That was half full of water and the ice had cut through the wood flow down the river, cos the water was coming in like hell and er cos one thing I had to do about it, had like a chain in the, in th in the boat, so we pulled the chain out, I pulled the chain out first and go just got the, the erm hull just above water so I bail the boat out with a bucket chuck it down the side right quick. That's how I saved the boat then. Otherwise it'd er fill right up down to the side the, the top of the boat, that was on a Sunday. [speaker001:] Were you working this particular Sunday? [George:] Well I was on watch, weekend watch, you see. [speaker001:] What was weekend watch? [George:] Well I went to work on the Saturday morning at six and we were dredging until half past twelve, then we would, then do repairs till five o'clock at night and then five o'clock at night, when the other crew had gone home, when I start to stay there then from five o'clock Saturday night till Monday morning six o'clock all the time just to keep watch on the dredger, I used to sleep mind you during part of the time and erm used to have a big old tortoise stove down the cabin and make good fire. [speaker001:] When you say tortoise stove [George:] Well that was what they call it, tortoise stove, used to be a big stove and that ain't got no grate in they had er they used to feed it from the top, [speaker001:] What with? [George:] coal, and then rake down to the bottom and that's when you open the little door for the draught to go up and they cal they call them tortoise stove. [speaker001:] Is that what kept you warm? [George:] That what kept us warm. I didn't sleep in my father's bunk I used to sleep on the table, I er had an old flock mattress, that's what I had, an old flock mattress and a flock pillow. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Why did you sleep on the table? [George:] Well the was right near the fire. See we had a fire right in the middle of the cabin and I used to chuck this here er flock mattress on the table and the blankets over the old flock pillow and go to sleep that way. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] What were you keeping watch for while you were on board? [George:] Well we had to keep somebody on watch in case there was any damage, say the ship was up the river and a chain broke or they hit you, so you had to put your navigation lights up and to put navigation lights up we had hurricane lamps, we had a red and a white one, they should have been six foot apart, they never were they was about three foot. [speaker001:] Why was that? [George:] Well, that's the quickest way to do it, we used to hang one below the other on the dredger, be put up at sunset and we used to take 'em down early in the morning, but you always had, you always had erm navigation lights up, must... [speaker001:] So this was part of the job at the weekend? [George:] That was part of your job as a watchman, you have to all the little paraffin lamps, that's all they were, sometimes they'd keep alight and sometimes they wouldn't, they'd go out but there was... there was never much erm work at night times on the river, might be an old barge. I remember one time er these barges, old barges when you used to come up there, they ain't got any engine in 'em at all because now they got motors in 'em, but erm, at that time, I was asleep one night and er these barges had been up, they'd been down the... the engine room, cos the engine room and the stoke hall was all in one and th and then I was so sound asleep they'd filled the sacks up with coal and took them up over the and took the only thing they did do they didn't take the shovel they'd used, cos they bought their shovel from off the barge and they left that downhill that's how they'd pinched the coal. It didn't make any difference to me. [speaker001:] They actually came aboard and pinched your coal? [George:] They'd pinched the coal and that didn't make any difference to me because it weren't my coal, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Did you have any coal left after that? [George:] Oh yeah, we had plenty of coal, plenty of coal. I didn't mind them taking any coal. [speaker001:] And you were asleep while they did it? [George:] But I was asleep while the... while they took it. [speaker001:] But then you gained their shovel anyway. [LAUGHTER] [George:] Gained their shovel. Cos their shovel was different to ours, but that weren't any good to us cos that was er, cos what they used to... trim grain with, now a grain shovel was made of tin and cos our shovels what they used to feed the boiler with were all steel shovels. [speaker001:] so that wasn't strong enough to shovel coal? [George:] They weren't any good to shovel coals no, is to give it away again. [speaker001:] Did wha did that usually happen, come aboard and steel? [George:] Oh very often, yeah, very often. Now we used to clean the bottom up cos used to be a big boiler in the dredger and erm we used to close down every six weeks, which they used to call blow the boiler down, that mean that they open the valve and the heat used to take all the water into the river, so er, that used to be blown down Friday night, come Saturday morning we'd start at six o'clock and chip all the fur off inside the boiler, cos the boiler was made with all and what we call the crown, that used to be the two furnaces, cos they're double the big boiler were a double furnace and we had to chip all that fur off them, well it used to take us now from six o'clock in the morning or say seven when we got there had to go down the tug and er go down the tug and erm, then we go aboard and strip off. You didn't want any clothes on, you put a pair of trousers on, that's all you want and a little old thin shirt and chip all this stuff off the... what we call the crown. [speaker001:] Was it hot in there? [George:] That was hot, yes and th in between there used to be that's where your furnace used to go in and come back and up out the chimney and that they put them the in there to heat the water quick you see and yet they ought to be, they had to be sliced out with a what they call a slice, cos they used to get furred up and we used to give them nineteen and sixpence for that to fill the boiler up again, we had t used to have take Pinmill and they used to have to come up to get fresh water into the anchor boat and we used to pump it up by hand, into the boiler. [speaker001:] Everything was done by hand? [George:] Everything was done by hand. Everything. [speaker001:] When you got water, when you came up to the docks to get water, where would you obtain that from? [George:] Well they usually out... out of the er hydrant on the quay cos the hydrant on the quay there used to be a water main a the water main used to go along there and we used to put so much water into the boat and now we come down and used to pump that out and then go back after some more. [speaker001:] Was that a hydrant available for the use of all the steam boats? [George:] Pard yes that was, oh yes. [speaker001:] Were there many hydrants? [George:] Oh yes, on, on Cliff Quay. You get... I reckon you get one about every fifty yards, something like that. Maybe less than that. You've still got 'em round the dock now. [speaker001:] Where are they now? [George:] On the edge of the Quay. [speaker001:] Do they still work? [George:] They still work... I they've got there used to be one man er employed to erm give these er boats water, fresh water drinking water [speaker001:] What would? What would he be called, what was, what... [George:] He just call him the waterman. [speaker001:] Waterman? [George:] The waterman, and he had, he had a clock on top of his hydrant, to say how much water the... the... the boat taken. Soon did... they soon take up enough he used to go on board with his book and get it signed by the mate or the er captain of the ship. [speaker001:] And is... do you know how much they were charged? [George:] I don't know but an ordinary barge used to have a little wooden crate and he want to have a little tank, they put a fixed charge on of two and six pence that's what they done. [speaker001:] Even if he had a small pond? [George:] If he had a small pond it used to be was two and sixpence that's all they used to charge, but of course the other boats, now the boats that used to come from Rotterdam they wouldn't fill up there and they were Dutch boats, they wouldn't fill up in water out of the Rhine in Rotterdam, they always wait until they come to Ipswich and got fresh water. [speaker001:] Why was that? [George:] Well it was better than what theirs was, cos theirs come out of the Rhine. [speaker001:] Which wasn't very clean? [George:] Weren't very clean and er course Ipswich water's all nice fresh water, they always filled up with fresh water at Ipswich, the Dutch boats which was the... we had three boats there, they used to be the Ipswich, Ipswich Progress and Ipswich Pioneer. They had them three boats and then they used to take do away with the small boats and they had one big one, the Ipswich erm Pioneer Progress something like that. [speaker001:] What did they do? [George:] They used to bring all general cargo from Rotterdam to Ipswich. Wh when was this? Oh about erm, let me see about ten years ago. [speaker001:] Oh you're going back ten years? [George:] Yeah, about ten years that's all. [speaker001:] Going back to when you were on watch on the dredger over the weekends, did it ever feel lonely? [George:] Well we had er,th there always used to be one man aboard the dumb hopper,wh they used to leave there for Monday morning and they used to p him, a man with him. With me there, but he'd be aboard the dumb hopper and I'd be aboard the dredger and I remember one man, he turned round, his name was ex naval man he was and er I went round on the Sunday morning and he didn't speak to me on the Saturday. I went to him on the Sunday morning I said morning Charlie, he said morning and I said ni I said goodnight Charlie, he say goodnight and that's the only thing he said to me all the weekend. That's true. Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] He used t he used t he used to take about half a dozen bottles of beer on the Saturday morning with him and that's where he used to be in his, in his galley and he wouldn't move out that galley all the time. [speaker001:] He wasn't a talkative [LAUGHTER]. [George:] Oh he weren't, no. Coo Charlie I always remember him, ex naval man. [speaker001:] So how did you fill in your time? [George:] Eh? [speaker001:] How did you fill in your time? [George:] Just sit there and do anything, do a bit of fishing. [speaker001:] Fishing? [George:] Yeah, you could fish in the river then. [speaker001:] What sort of fish did you used to get? [George:] Small little dabs, dabs and eels. [speaker001:] Did you eat them. [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] You used to cook them on board? [George:] Cook them on board. I know, I went, I got some whelks once and that was in Bay, they were lovely whelks and I put 'em in a bucket and er didn't think and now I used to put some flour in with 'em. If you put flour with 'em, with the whelk they used to make 'em nice and fat and tender. [speaker001:] Why, because they feed on it? [George:] They're feeding on this here, on this flour. Anyhow, the next morning I got up they were all over the deck, they crawled out of the bloody bucket. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] They crawled out the bucket all over the deck. That my first experience of catching whelks. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] How did you catch the whelks? [George:] Well you had a ho used to have a hoop net,a a and that used to be a re like with a hoop. That used to be with er a piece of net in and across the top used to have two piece of wire, one way, and two piece the other and you catch a crab open the crab open and they used to put the crab between there and the whelks used to feed on the crab and then when you pulled it out, they all went to the bottom of the net. [speaker001:] clever. [LAUGHTER] [George:] That's how we used to catch the fish like that. [speaker001:] Earlier on you were talking about erm the dredger bringing up fish or you your father [George:] Oh yes we use cos when you're dredging, you see when the eels came in the mud, eels always go in the mud in the winter time, you don't, many eels swirl out, they go in the mud and when you're dredging and they're going into the hopper, cos they used to get stunned and they used to swim round right down the top of the water and they used to come up to the side, and if they come up to the side you could have your knife and just come here, cos they were stunned, pick 'em out. [speaker001:] What you lean over? [George:] No, well there weren't much to see if your hopper was full, you ain't got far to go cos they only come about a foot off side, you see you could just kneel down there and catch 'em. [speaker001:] Did everybody take fish? [George:] Well there were them what could get 'em. They won't be interest to someone. Something go a hang whether they had cut the fish or not. [speaker001:] Where was the best place for bringing up fish on the river? [George:] I reckon the best place is Finn Mill, cos that was a lot cleaner, see your river, now cos that's polluted now and er all you get in the river now is you get flounders or eels, that's what you get. At that time, I mean, I have known when my, when I was a dredger and they used t we used to clean the bottom, I have known er mussels on the bottom, used to feed on, be on the side of the ship, good mussels, but of course there used to be cockles, winkles. [speaker001:] Mm. [George:] Winkles down at Finn Mill there used to be sm well thousands, millions of them, winkles and the ships used to come round from the Blackwater from Colchester area, come round, stay round the Finn Mill about a fortnight and they used to have what they call a well in their boat and they used to have... fill up little sacks like a sand bag of winkles and take them round there and cultivate them. Now there's no... there's no er winkles in the river today. There are fertilisers gone down the river and they kill them all off. [speaker001:] Where do the fertilisers come from? [George:] Fertiliser factory down here. [speaker001:] What on the dock? [George:] Yeah, Cliff Quay. [speaker001:] When was that built? [George:] Oh was built oh that was built nineteen thirty odd [speaker001:] Mm mm. [George:] And course they used to dump further down the there. Not in my time but they used to be all branched off, there used to be a lot of oysters. Now they're all gone round the Colchester area [clears throat] Cos they're finished, they call them the oyster beds. [speaker001:] When you were on the watch for the weekend, did you used to get extra payment for that? [George:] Ten shillings from Saturday morning, from when they... when the men left off at half past four on a Saturday till six o'clock Monday morning, we got ten shillings and if... and if we were on watch on th on the night time, cos we used to do one watch one week and one night one week and two nights next, cos there used to be the mate and erm three more sailors, used to take turns, well there was only four nights so the man who done the Monday night, they done the Friday night. So he got two nights in one week and the others done the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. That's how they used to work around all the time. [speaker001:] So it was watched all the while like that? [George:] you got to have a watchman all the time on the dredger. [speaker001:] Did anything ever go wrong when you were on watch? [George:] No, never. No. [speaker001:] The... the boats coming up would have passed if... if you were down the river. Any boat coming up would have come fairly close wouldn't it? [George:] That would do, but they should ease down when they come past, but they didn't, they never took no notice. [speaker001:] Didn't they? [George:] Oh no, my father stand aboard there when we have been dredging, you know, and they come up there at speed and he stood there and he swore at... at that part of if, call them all the crazy buggers my father. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] But they never took any notice? [George:] Yes, there was one pilot down there, his name was George and er, my father was in one Sunday and he said to my father, he said he say you only think you know the river. Cos he'd report there was a there weren't enough water inside the place, so he said to my father, say to him, he'd say er don't you tell me all thick he'd say, I dredge the bloody river, he say. You keep in the channel he say you the ground and that was the truth too. He... he went out the channel went on the boat. [speaker001:] How wide was the channel? [George:] Well it was all different widths. The widest part, I think, is what they call near the just below the, that's er what they call that's not in the book now. Hall Point they dunno where that... [speaker001:] Is that Hall Point? [George:] Hall Point that was called. [speaker001:] H A double L? [George:] And then you had one at Pinmill, now they've got erm the in there... in that book now, well that was called Point, one or two of the old names are there like Deer Park Lodge and the river in Foxes Bottom. [speaker001:] Where was Foxes Bottom? [George:] Foxes Bottom was just below Pinmill, opposite Bay. [speaker001:] Going away from Ipswich? [George:] On going away from Ipswich on, yes, on the Pinmill side. Cos you got Nagden the other side, right opposite Nagden Chorlis [speaker001:] The Cat House, where was that? [George:] The Cat House well that's at, the Cat House, that's wher that's where the house used to be, where in er time erm, that's where they used to put a cat in the window for the smokers. [speaker001:] What a real cat? [George:] I dunno whether it was a real cat, I don't think so, as a matter of fact I was just finished reading the book which is interesting, tell you all about the river. [speaker001:] Why did they put the cat in the window? [George:] Well smokers all clear or not I don't know but th that even mentioned in that book Downham Reach and that talk about the Priory Farm where was cos that was all walking about all these smugglers at that time... but the book I, the history I thought about don't seem the same in the book now. [speaker001:] So you used to dredge all that length right the way down [George:] All that length, yeah [speaker001:] right up from in the dock [George:] Right to the dock yes [speaker001:] right the way through? [George:] Yeah, what we call a new cut, we dredge right opposite the Harbourmaster's office and we dredged all and we used to do that tide time, had to work at ti tides, when it's high tide, cos that otherwise there weren't any water there at all. That's when the erm, the pleasure boats used to run from there, the Suffolk and the Norfolk, them, they were erm, they were sharp both ends, the Suffolk and the Norfolk. [speaker001:] Sharp both ends? [George:] Yeah, well they got... they were, they were sharp both ends, they weren't, ain't got no stern, them paddle... they were paddle boats, so there you got one they had a rudder each end so they had to keep one rudder shut and the other one used to steer. That was the old rail roll railway boats, Suffolk and the Norfolk. [speaker001:] Where did they go from? [George:] They went from er the New Cut, near the Harbourmaster's office, the stations are still there, a lot of on there now. Then you had the City of Rochester, that was another boat, after the war, that used to run from. There used to be three, the Essex, the Suffolk and the Norfolk and the Suffolk had two funnels and the er the Norfolk had one funnel. [speaker001:] Where did they go to? [George:] And they used to run from here to Harwich, Felixstowe, that used to be their run, all run by the... you could... you could get a bus oh you could go down go on them boats and you go to Harwich, Felixstowe and then get off at Felixstowe and come on the bus if you wanted to. [speaker001:] And these were pleasure? [George:] That was all pleasure boats. [speaker001:] Pleasure boats, but people could use them for just getting around anywhere? [George:] Yes, yeah there used... there used to be one go down, another one used to be coming up. [speaker001:] Was this every day? [George:] Every day. [speaker001:] What di what did they charge for a trip? [George:] Oh goodness be about one and ninepence. [speaker001:] To go to Harwich? [George:] To go to Harwich, yes, they erm, the Salvation Army, once a year that's where they used to go on their for their treat. They used to go from here to Dovercourt. All people that went to the Salvation Army in they... they always used to have their treat there, other church always used to go to Felixstowe, that used to cost us ninepence to go to Felixstowe on the train. [speaker001:] On the train? [George:] Yeah... Felixstowe. [speaker001:] Why did they bother going? [George:] And at one... one erm, they was er the other one was the Clements Church Hall used to go to Felixstowe but the er, the other one the Memorial Hall down the bottom of down er... that was just off er down there we they couldn't afford to go to Felixstowe, so we went on Cobbles Meadow down here, that's what we had then. [speaker001:] When you say Cobbles Meadow down here, where do you mean? [George:] Well that's near Cobbles, that's where the, there is a football pitch down the bottom of Cliff Lane. [speaker001:] Oh that's down by the dock? [George:] That's right there's a... that used to be an old meadow, that's all it used to be, course now, they've got a nice football pitch on it now. [speaker001:] Is that place now? [George:] place. [speaker001:] That's their football pitch? [George:] That's their football pitch there. [speaker001:] Going back to dredging. You talked about the New Cut? [George:] Yes, well the New Cut, you see, years ago, they used to be the entrance to the dock. Cos if you g if anybody go down there now they could see where what we call the Pier Head, so ships had to go up there and turn in to the lock gate. Now, the lock gates are right, the river, so they can come up straight in, previous they used to have to go up, up the river there, new cut and then turn into the dock. [speaker001:] So there were no lock gates originally? [George:] There were no lock, no lock gates this end. No, that's a long while before my time. [speaker001:] Did you have to do any dredging up there? Yeah, we done dredging up there. We just skimmed it off. When did they put the... the new [George:] The new lock gates? [speaker001:] Yeah. [George:] Oh goodness knows, I mean that them gates have been renewed and I remember them being renewed, these gates what they got there now. They must have been renewed somewhere about the erm I would say roughly round about nineteen twenty seven, twenty eight and that's been renewed as lock gates, cos they took 'em out and they had a big crane come from Rotterdam to lift them up and er things do now well that's surprising what they do do now. I mean, that I known, these people down here now have the old dredger what they got here now. They... they fix it up with wires and they got so far and as the tide rise, cos the ship come up and they take 'em out and take 'em to the dock, take 'em out with a heavy crane. [speaker001:] Mm mm. [George:] See lot lot of these jobs are done by the tide, say you take a ship now what's been sunk in the river, at low tide they'll put the wires underneath, make them fast to the ships and when the tide when the t t tide rise out come the ship, and they can take it where they want to. [speaker001:] How many feet does the tide rise down at this dock? [George:] About, roughly round about er twelve feet in the river [speaker001:] I in the river? [George:] and rise and fall about twelve feet, they tell you in that new book you've got there, the rise and fall. [speaker001:] How deep did you used to dredge it out? [George:] Well we dredged it, alongside of Cliff Quay, that was twenty eight feet of water at low tide, that was... that's what they guarantee, apart from what they call and then two blasts off, two ships was laying that'd be at twenty eight feet, then that would rise ten feet below what they call, cos all in metres now. [speaker001:] What's a docksill? [George:] A docksill is what that takes. Whatever the tide states at the lock gates, the ri the channel is dredged ten feet below that. ten feet deeper. [speaker001:] And who used to work all this out, your father? [George:] No, the Harbourmaster used to do that. He'd tell him, he'd get his orders from the office, cos the Deputy Harbourmaster he would go down all the sound... he sound in river and see what wanted taken out, then he'd say to my father I'll dredge at so and so belo below docksill and docksill what they used to do they used to, my father what he'd do he'd put stakes on the mud, a short stake and a long stake on account of the tide and he'd, he'd make an imaginary on that stake, then he'd go ashore at Wolverston, phone up what have you got on your docksill, the fella might say it's ten feet, well he'd say right we'll make that twenty feet, so that's er, that's what he used to work on to dredge the river. [speaker001:] Used to dredge the channel out, how, how wide did the channel have to be? [George:] All different widths. [speaker001:] What, why different widths? [George:] Well I don't know that's just enough room for a ship to get up. I mean the narrowest part of the river I would say is er where Hall Bridge is, that's the narrowest part. [speaker001:] And how wide is that? [George:] Well could be about seventy five yards I think, that's to see that [speaker001:] And you did this with a three foot wide bucket? [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] So it must have taken a long while? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Yes, surprising, it's surprising how fa far you went ahead. I mean seven years continual dredging for seven years apart from a month they in dock and you were taking out eight hundred tonne every hopper load and some days you were doing five loads and sometimes four loads, was a lot of mud we dumped so much mud out at erm near the Cork Lightship, now you would think they would level theirself off wouldn't you and if they didn't that up. what they have to do, have to go further off now, when they are dredging now they have to go further off into the sea, North Sea [speaker001:] [cough] Why did it build up? [George:] Well cos at er, there weren't enough tide to take it away, I mean you ta you get clay well that's, that's solid and the amount of stuff I was dredge they use and use it, now we're not the only ones got it, they got people from Harwich, people from Felixstowe, they were all dumping out there. [speaker001:] That silts up again then doesn't it when you dredged it up? [George:] And that silts up and tha cos the you get the silt, well I think it silted up about three feet in about three years, that weren't much and the.. course to come up now. With... with dredged up pieces of rocks bigger than that erm machine, bigger than yes, that one yeah. [speaker001:] Bigger than the sideboard? [George:] Yeah, bigger than that. [speaker001:] What's that about... three foot by two foot? [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] And you've dredged up pieces of rock? [George:] And we'd dredge 'em up and they and they used to pick 'em up on a bucket, go in there, pick 'em on a bucket and of course instead of them going over, the tumbler, into the harbour, we used to have to put a chain round and 'em off, cos if not they'd have gone over them, tumbler and damaged the chute. [speaker001:] Er what sort of just ordinary? [George:] Well they've got them all outside the erm lock gates now. Up on the shore what we dredged up. [speaker001:] Do they? [George:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Outside the lock gates? [George:] Outside the lock gates, just as you go into th into near the erm Customs Hut, the Customs place, near the lock gates, all the rock now is what we dredged up years and years ago. [speaker001:] I didn't know that, [George:] Yeah [speaker001:] just sit there. [George:] That's still there now, cos they used to take it up there and dump it when it weren't any good. [speaker001:] Did you often dredge rock up? [George:] Oh goodness yes,wh we if we dredged up, we'd have a say a piece of on deck, we used to land them on deck until we got room, so we came up at Upper Dock. There might be a yachtsman come along and he'd want a mooring, so he'd say to my father, can you fix us up yes, get an old bit of chain and put round, put some wooden wed wedges in tighten 'em up, up, that's his, that's his mooring, he'd take it somewhere in the river, have it dumped, put a buoy on it, that was, that's like his anchor. [speaker001:] So that was quite handy then [LAUGHTER] [George:] handy, that was a lit lit little bit of did it [speaker001:] Perks of the job? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Yeah. Certainly had. [speaker001:] You spoke earlier about dredging teeth and bones up of animals. Whereabouts were they dredged up? [George:] Preston. At Preston. Out of the peat. Now er clay pipes, we used to dredge up and they got dredged up down opposite Pinmill, and they were a long pipe, but cos the, the stem a lot of them had been broken off and wh how they got down there nobody know, I think they used to be like in ballast with the ships, I think. Like there weren't any old boys on there they used to wash 'em out you know and clean them up then smoke 'em. an old clay pipe [speaker001:] Did they really? [George:] Then you used to be able to buy clay pipes, I don't think you could today. [speaker001:] No. [George:] But er a lot of 'em used to erm,use used to smoke 'em. [speaker001:] They used to come up with the dredging spoil [George:] With the dredger yes. We ca we dredged some off erm halfway to the by the near Pinmill. [speaker001:] What happened to the bones and the teeth you you collected? [George:] The teeth there used to be a man come down about once every three months and er where he came from I don't know. Whether he come from this or not, but erm we were dredging the West Bank cos er the kind of ship we got there then were the big tankers and there weren't enough room for them to swing round, so we had to dredge part of the bank out to make the swinging berth and erm there we dredged a bone up about that size [speaker001:] What was that about [George:] and [speaker001:] four foot? [George:] Yeah that's a big and my and that stuck out the bucket like that, well going over the top we had a hood over the top tumbler to stop the flashing, so my father stopped, thinking that was a bit of wood and were gonna break the top of the tumbler, so he stop and out and scrubbed it and found that was this bone and I think if my memory serve me right that's in the, the Fleet Museum now. [speaker001:] You don't know what it came off? [George:] No, they reckon that was an elephant, I don't know so the yarn went. all we see all different bits of bone. [speaker001:] What else did you get? [George:] Lot of sewage but the, the, the, the sewage. That was terrible that was, cos that's where a lot of their stuff was dumped, in the river at one time, cos now that's all taken to sea. [speaker001:] Did any of the, the teeth and the bones erm [George:] like a deer's like a deer's jaw. [speaker001:] A whole jaw? [George:] Yeah, a whole jaw. You part of the horn, you dredged them up, cos you used t the only thing we saw taken out, then this old fella used to come down from the Museum or whatever he was and he used to be pleased he'd stay there all day and pick up them all. [speaker001:] Did you get many? [George:] Good few. [speaker001:] Do you know if they still dredge them up these days or... [George:] Oh I think they do [speaker001:] Mm [George:] See well th the dredger they get now, the little dredger they got now that should hold about four hundred ton. The mud they put out now there is lucky if they put two hundred ton in and that's only had by grab and course they'd make a hole there, then course that fill up again. That's how they do dredging now. [speaker001:] They make the hole? [George:] Yeah,wh when the grab go in, you see them, that's making a hole isn't it [speaker001:] Mm [George:] and course then the sides cave in again and that's the idea they can keep it down level, or try to. [speaker001:] So is that a better way of doing it? [George:] No the only, I would say personally, I would say the best dredging method is buckets because you can, you can keep a level, you could keep a level with a sucker dredger but not a ground dredger... unless like grabbing out the hole. Er er in hole that's like that and you're grabbing out, well you're only making a hole and fill in again but they into that one place don't they... like down at the erm, when I was crane driving, we used to have ships coming from Casablanca, with phosphate in and then there be a, another part there was sulphur, then they used to be erm, there's green oar, what we used to call [speaker001:] Green oar? [George:] Green oar [speaker001:] What's that? [George:] Well that's a he very heavy stuff, that's a er is er like er erm, oh a heavy little lead. [speaker001:] Is it a metal? [George:] Er a well I don't know, I feel that th there used to be something in that, that used to burn it up now what they call their top site and when they burned it they took all the acid out of it, and there used to be all yellow stuff come out the chimney and that, when they finished burn that was always red and the Germans used to come after that before the war, Second World War, they used to come after that and they used to reckon they make paintwork but now you done something else different with it and they use I tell you we used to give it the name of green oar or parites [speaker001:] parites [George:] parites yeah. [speaker001:] Do you remember the Second World War at the docks. What it was like? [George:] Yes, I was a crane driver then. [speaker001:] You moved on from being on the dredger? [George:] no I was made off. I moved off the dredger in nineteen thirty two and I was crane driving from nineteen thirty two till after the war. [speaker001:] Why did you finish on the dredger? [George:] Well cos they finished, they ain't got enough money. [speaker001:] So they... [George:] They, they packed the and sold it. [speaker001:] So this was the Dock Commission? [George:] Yes, Dock Commission sold the dredger, they sold the hoppers and then last the steam hopper went from here to Harwich and what they done at Harwich they, on the foredeck, see a big hopper, what we call hopper number three, they put a crane on there and use it t as a hopper then and [speaker001:] And did they continue dredging? [George:] And the dredger went to erm Hull, that's where it went to, to br be broken up. [speaker001:] Who did the dredging after that then? [George:] Well the. They're a big, they're a big dredging company from London. If they want their dredging done they got them people in which cost a lot more money. [speaker001:] That seems a bit odd really that they paid [George:] Right, yeah it does, I mean there were, that's how things went. [speaker001:] Was that er erm a depressing time at the docks [George:] That was, yes [speaker001:] at nineteen thirty two? [George:] That was because I mean you take now the, the, the Dredging Company what they call the in their funnel they used to have erm a square and in halves that used to be a blue and a yellow. That was our marking, all our ships used to have the blue and er I think blue and yellow in the square, cos they hired these the people who do er you know suppose hire them off now would be the erm the Dutch people cos they're the people what er, they deal in all that type of thing, big dredging, that's how Rotterdam was built [clears throat] [speaker001:] By dredging? [George:] By dredging. Reclaimed land. [speaker001:] Why was times bad in nineteen thirty two for the dock? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Why were times bad for the dock in nineteen thirty two? [George:] Well that's one of those things, like it is today you see, unemployment and new trade coming in and all the rest of that. [speaker001:] Why wasn't the trade coming in? [George:] People didn't want it, weren't the money about, investments I suppose. [speaker001:] So from there you moved on to being, being a crane driver? [George:] I went crane driving. [speaker001:] Mm mm what did that involve? [George:] [clears throat] Well the first crane I drove was a was only at that so I was stuck on one of them and I had to sling me grab all the time and this, this bridge come round and miss the bridge and go over it and rush it down to the hold. [speaker001:] Was that difficult? [George:] It was difficult cos you only had what they we call the joystick behind me and I used to work that and I used to be turn the crane round one way then the other and he got on the same lever but today they got, cos they got big lovely cranes where they stand there with four levers, four controls they've got and it goes up and down. And the jib goes up and down quite easily. [speaker001:] I see what sort of crane did you call them, the new ones? [George:] These are luffing cranes. [speaker001:] Loving? [George:] Luff [speaker001:] Luffing? [George:] [spelling] L U F F I N G []. [speaker001:] They're the modern ones. [George:] They're the modern ones, luffing cranes. [speaker001:] The old cranes sounded quite dangerous. [George:] They were yes, well you could swing them grabs out and come the wire still [speaker001:] Were there ever any accidents with them? [George:] Oh goodness yes. [speaker001:] What [George:] I done plenty of damage. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You did? [George:] I got threatened with the sack once. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] What did you do? [George:] Well I went through a ship's bridge, broke the wheel up top, I did, cos you, at that time, see how things improve all the time, now jib and all that is, that's thirty five feet long. Mine was only twenty feet long, the one I was driving, twenty feet long jib. Now on that twenty feet long, now I'm up about say, you can say anything like about fifteen feet up in the in the air, might be less than that and then you got twenty feet up like that, well then there used to be wire and used to have a big wheel in top, which you couldn't go over the top and with a wire, then I used to have a sling chain, my main hook and that was thirteen foot long and you take th that and on, on working on top of the lorry, see you got to be so careful and there's men working on that lorry as well, course I broke the wheel. [speaker001:] What happened? [George:] They got a new one, they had another, then they had another idea then, they came round and had erm, had, turned round and said, right they done away with part of the wire and they got another big wheel so you can go right over the top next time, they done away with the big hook, so you could shackle your, your chain on to the wire, then you could go right over the top and then they get the old short chains like that. thirteen foot six, they got little short chains like a lot better. [speaker001:] Did you get into trouble for breaking [George:] Trouble yeah, trouble I got put off for a fortnight, on the dole, then he, I was on the dole for a week and er he cos at that time you had to appear in front of the erm, what they call the Court of Referees at the Labour Exchange, that was their Committee. You had to appear in front of them, well this, I'd been off for a week [clears throat] and the old Harbourmaster old he sent for me and he said erm, you can start work tomorrow as I. Right I said I'll start tomorrow morning, I go to the Labour this afternoon, Court of Referees. Yes, he said, I should go, and he wouldn't come, cos he ain't got no answer to it you see, anyway I went and I started back the next morning, he called me back. that one alright. [speaker001:] Was it usual to be stood off if you did something wrong for the? [George:] Oh goodness, yes for the damage and you had to go in front of the Harbourmaster. [speaker001:] This was the Ipswich Dock Commission? [George:] Ipswich Dock Commission coo dear. [speaker001:] And they would generally stand you off work for a while, that was your punishment? [George:] That's punishment, yeah, they would either do that or there was one driver down there [clears throat] he broke a wheel, that weren't his fault, and he had to pay for it, he had to go in the office like I did once. I had to go in the office every Friday night and I was only earning about two pounds seventeen and six a week and they use and Deputy Harbourmaster, Captain, he say, how much you earned this week he say, three pound, I'm asking you four he say, well they'd take it off you [clears throat] and er you'd be paying it now, takes about six months, and he old Harbourmaster see you about the quay he said. Want you in the office and he'd give it all back again [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Did he really? [George:] he only done, they only done that to learn you a lesson. [speaker001:] Yeah. [George:] [clears throat] Dear oh dear, cos he weren't allowed, he weren't allowed to stop money, cos that's against the law to pay for damages. [speaker001:] Didn't they ever get caught out then? [George:] No, no, he daren't say anything cos if you got, you said anything you got the bloody sack. [speaker001:] Did you have any union? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Did you have any union? [George:] Oh yeah yeah, I had a union. [speaker001:] And didn't, didn't the union question why they were taking money? [George:] No well I did, old, old erm what's his name now coo dear there was one old boy he, he, he well he union on this Court of Referees and er cos we got to hear of it. Somebody said, well the Harbourmaster's not coming, I said, right go back to work and that's the time I, that's the time when we had the first baby and erm, that's the first one we lost and anyhow they put me off for a fortnight and erm I went down to, I say go up the Board of Guardians, that was like the D H S S but a little bit lower and I just start to buy this house [clears throat] soon as I said to this bloke, he live in the council house over here this bloke, what was interviewing me... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] where do you live, I say oh you're buying your own house? I said yeah just started, course if I'd have paid money off I said lived on it you see [speaker001:] Mm [George:] and there be twenty eight shillings a week, that's all I allowed him and because that was even better than labour money and so the day, they, I had to keep that they stopped all me labour, so cos I had the money you see. [speaker001:] They stopped that? [George:] They stopped it see, so I didn't gain anything out of it, me mates at work they made a collection for me in their way. [speaker001:] Did the union act for you at this particular time then? [George:] Oh, they did yes oh yes. [speaker001:] What I was wondering was when you said that the dock stopped the money for payment for damages, they'd paid it back to you. Didn't the union question why they? [George:] No, no, no none of that, union didn't know we were paying. Because I knew, the fella that done the damage before I did the same thing, he said to me, he say you carry on you'll get it back. [speaker001:] And so you never told the union? [George:] So I didn't tell the union. [speaker001:] How much [LAUGHTER] [George:] So he say they'll give it to you back so that's what they done they give me me money back, cos they'd already give him back his, you see. [speaker001:] Yeah. Were there ever any strikes at the docks? [George:] Oh, goodness yeah but now they, even today, I mean they have a strike and that's settled just like that. [speaker001:] Is it? [George:] Yes, goodness. [speaker001:] Was it not settled quickly before. When you were there? [George:] No, no it weren't, not when a general strike in nineteen twenty six, that was a bad one. [clears throat] [speaker001:] That's when everybody came out together was it? [George:] Everybody come out, yes. [speaker001:] Well were there ever any strikes that have just affected the docks? [George:] No, not really. I mean I've known little strikes there last about a couple of days and they all got over it. They always used to give way to 'em. [speaker001:] What would, what would they have been over? [George:] Anything, more money, that was the main thing, more money. [speaker001:] And they wouldn't last that long? [George:] No, no, cos you had, see they, these big people they didn't wanna be into it they same getting their money, like and and,,, they didn't want strikes. They al always used to, all used to finish up down here any rate. Alright give 'em it. [speaker001:] Didn't that encourage more strikes though? [LAUGHTER] [George:] No it didn't, no the people,th the dockers were pretty reasonable, they were [clears throat] now I will say that dockers pretty reasonable. That's what I say to a lot of people today, they moan about dockers but they're only fighting for their rights. That's all. [speaker001:] Mm. [George:] I mean lot of my children go over the limit but erm they stir up too much. [speaker001:] But in general that was er [George:] That was er [speaker001:] give and take. [George:] give and take, was yes. Cos there's some, they used to be carrying timber down the dock all one length and what already slung, already stacked for 'em and the way it cost, the way it go put the wires on me for sure now and there ain't much to let now. [speaker001:] You mention a little while ago. Who were? [George:] They were tim timber merchants. They used to saw timber down for planks and that, they had er place in Hull and a place in Ipswich. that was. [speaker001:] Where were they positioned on the dock? [George:] They were down at Cliff Quay. They were, that's where is now. Cos, they sold out the, that's all now and I think came from Yarmouth, they used, they used to have a big place at Yarmouth and we came through the other week and er I see their sheds are nearly all empty now, there. [speaker001:] What at the Yarmouth? [George:] At Yarmouth. But as I say there ain't er, there ain't the timber used to, what there used to be [clears throat]. down at there was one ship down there, that six weeks move. [speaker001:] What was, what were you unloading? [George:] Timber, that were all loose timber [clears throat] that was during the war, six weeks, six weeks that took to unload that ship. [speaker001:] That's a long while isn't it? [George:] That was yeah. [speaker001:] That always used to be a fortnight to three weeks to unload a ship but this one ship, that was called, I remember that was called the lovely ship and that had been bombed, that had a bomb drop right on the. Course and the bomb gone on the broke the winches and that, and that had gone so far, you know, that timber, that has crushed the timber all, more or less all together. Al all the cargo inside was damaged? [George:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Where did this happen in the Channel? [George:] In the Channel, well, It was coming over I suppose from America [clears throat] [speaker001:] Did you have many boats coming in bomb damaged? [George:] Yes we had one or two, we had one coal boat come in, damaged. [clears throat]

[speaker001:] This is old history project tape number two of Mr of Ipswich, in Suffolk. My name is the date is the second of March nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number five of Ipswich Docks.... Do you remember anything happening during the war down the docks? [George:] Yes we had er ships wh we, they call erm these liberty ships come in from America loaded with bombs and when they moved them up there, well they call them down here they call them liberty ships and er the bombs were loaded, so they used to erm put all timber between each layer of bombs and they had proper carpenters who would fix all these and when the dockers went down, they put these bombs out, cos they weren't detonated, [clears throat] the detonators were in the fore end of the ship, right down the lower hull and erm the bombs were loaded into open trucks loaded into, well the dockers they thought it was dangerous, cos we had the Fire Brigade, that's the fire service down there and standing by with the fire engines and dockers they wanted the, they want a shilling, I think it was a shilling a day extra, well a shilling extra something like that and there they got it the shilling or extra pound, cos us crane drivers we weren't on the same par as them, so we asked for a shilling. Oh no, no, no, we couldn't. up in the crane, the dockers on the ground, they wouldn't give it to us, right we say we ain't gonna take any more out, they, we got the shilling. [speaker001:] You got it? [George:] [clears throat] Yeah, we got it [clears throat] and another time you see, when we wer when we used to be crane drivers, when we first started crane driving, the job for a crane driver was to do anything, you were a crane driver but if your crane wanted painting you would paint it yourself, chip to paint it. If a docker, you got to help the dockers down the hold, if you ain't got the crane driving to do, you had to go in the warehouse if there ain't nothing to do. But course now the present day they don't do none of that, they drive the crane and only the crane, they don't even clean the crane. [speaker001:] And you actually had to maintain your own [George:] And we had to maintain our own crane. [speaker001:] crane paint it? [George:] Paint it, yeah, chip and paint off the top of the jib. [speaker001:] What? [George:] Chip and paint up the top of the jib. [speaker001:] Chip it? [George:] Yeah, chip all the rust off. [speaker001:] Oh, I see. [George:] And red lead it and then used to be off the top of the jib. Well you, you got on the cranes down there, you go up fifty feet and then you had to go up another fifty feet to your top of your jib. So you can say you're about one hundred and five feet up in the air. [speaker001:] Needed a head for heights. [LAUGHTER] [George:] And you never had no, no, no safety belts or nothing, just stand there and paint and stand on a piece of angle, if you only want the laugh out of it, cos the cranes down there are the swan lift cranes. Yeah and y [speaker001:] What do you mean by swan lift cranes? [George:] Well the cr the jib went up and then it came down like that, well that swan neck on the cr that used to be what they call level oven, cos as y as you lift your crane out, so this part would come up. [speaker001:] The end? [George:] The end would come up and, and keep your load level on the ground you see, otherwise if you were a straight jib, they'd come down and further you come down the further, the lower your load get. Oh that, that was a lovely crane. Otherwise what they got some of the latest cranes out down there, you had to come off the barrel, go up the jib, come down again, then up again. [speaker001:] Why was that? [George:] Well, cos that's to keep the level oven, you see, what they call a level oven crane, but the swan neck crane, that was one wire right from the barrel, right over to your load. [speaker001:] So the jib was disjointed? [George:] That's right yes, yeah that bit that was just like what they call a swan neck, just like the swan and that was like that and so it kept me at load level, they were built by and some of the best cranes I've ever known on the dock. [speaker001:] What were they used mainly for? [George:] They were, they were for grabbing stuff out for and stone cold general cargo, anything. [speaker001:] What sort of cargoes came in though? [George:] Oh we used to have phosphate and sulphur, potash, coal, granite... you name it anything, general cargo we've had, loaded everything, even dead bodies, we sent, there was one young, one young person, he got drowned up the coast there and they... and he had to go back to Holland and they brought that from out the warehouse and put it on the stern of our ship, his coffin, they sent that back and they erm export er pigs to Poland, all live pigs, pedigree pigs. [speaker001:] How were they loaded? [George:] Into these, just a crate, and they used to get the old pigs and they used to shove 'em in there, shove the trap down, and they used to load them on the ships, they went back to Poland. [speaker001:] Did anybody travel with them to look after them? [George:] Oh yes, they were all fed properly, looked after alright, but they all, they told me they were all pedigrees but I doubt cos I don't know whether that's the truth, but they reckon in Poland when things were bad, when they unload them, they'd make some excuse that one of these pigs got out and run away and course they used to catch it er, somewhere they used to catch it and that was their fee then. [speaker001:] For food? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Yeah, they would, let the bake it we used to Danish foods and cos we used to have a Danish er, we used to have erm Polish ship come in one week and an English ship come in the next week and the, the bacon was just pigs were all killed, wrapped in sacking and tied with string, [clears throat] and they used to be laid in the hold like that. Well after you discharged the ship cos all the blood was there and erm they used to have to wash them holds all out then and this bacon was put on open lorries and taken to London, put in the refrigerator. Now today, cos they all, and all come over in container, refrigerated containers. [speaker001:] How did they keep it cool on the boat? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] How did they keep it cool on the boat? [George:] Well they refrig like refrigerate the hold, the hold was refrigerated, but after handling the smell was re terrible. [speaker001:] Was it? [George:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Did you ever have any of the bacon? [George:] No, I didn't, no. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] Never could fancy it, never could fancy it. I know some people did but [clears throat] no. See during the war we had, we had a lot of er minesweepers down here and they were all in these trawlers, fishing trawlers that's all they were and they used to go minesweeping off the coast, from here to Yarmouth and then, and Yarmouth and Lowestoft they had theirs, they used to like meet and... cos they used to be out four days minesweeping and in four days. Cos they they used to come in here for water and bunkers you see. [speaker001:] Water and? [George:] Bunkers, coal, they all coal furnace you see, [clears throat] and we er they'd come in and we used to fill them up with coal, whatever they wanted [cough] lot of that went over the side coal, beautiful coal that was. [speaker001:] How did it go over the side? [George:] Well when you had your grab, you used to lower it on the deck of the, deck of the erm trawler and when you open your grab, that much, a lot of it hold up in the grab you see, you couldn't get so of course when you did take your grab up, lot of it went over the side. [clears throat] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Did they get charged for that? [George:] Oh, no ch that was government money weren't it? [speaker001:] Government? [George:] All government money and when my father was, after the, after the war he had a little old dredger, little grab dredger and they went along the quay dredging it all up and er, course they took so much out the hole, scrubbed it, all good coal again. What they done, ooh they had one or two bags of that. Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] What other cargoes would you have to unload as a crane driver? [George:] Crane driver, television tubes, light bulbs, do you know these bulbs er, they used to come er, we used t they used to be made here, they used to be sent over to Holland and the brass bit used to be put in and the element inside and they used to go over there in cardboard boxes all loose and there used to be hundreds of them broken, they didn't, they didn't worry about it, as long as they, they reckon that as long as they get twenty five percent a hold they were satisfied and they were just in ordinary boxes, no paper in or nothing, just all loose. [speaker001:] And they went over just to be fitted with the [George:] Just fitted with the brass, that was that was. All stuff, cos then we, they imported a lot of er razors and erm all different television stuff and we had a lot of beer come in from erm Germany, lot of beer come the that stuff, that's a Dutch beer. I can't think of the name of the other German beer but the roll-on roll-off'll be out in the dock, cos we had a roll-on roll- off in the dock at all [speaker001:] When did that come into use? [George:] Well I would say er about ten year ago, cos I was stevedoring then stevedore and erm I used to go up there, and I was very friendly with the old skipper there. [speaker001:] I was going to ask you about your crane driving, how long were you a crane driver? [George:] Well I was a crane driver from nineteen thirty two till I went stevedoring, what time would that be, oh about nineteen fifty five I reckon. [speaker001:] Now stevedore, what did you have to do as a stevedore? [George:] Well I used to do, what you're doing see, you're in charge of loading the ship, see but they did, first of all they, they, we had er, we had a foreman stevedore, then we had, and then erm we had the stevedores and the dockers they went away on these courses, down to ones, they used to go to Southampton and some went to Hull, but when they came back, they called theirselves stevedores, so course our harbourmaster, he say that's not right, they're stevedores, well you gotta be all called foremen stevedores, so Captain come to me, he said, what are we gonna call you? I decided we better call you chief foreman stevedore, and that's what they call me, chief foreman, so that's what they call 'em today, [clears throat] chief foreman stevedore. [speaker001:] And what did that involve? [George:] involve me I used to get out in the morning, get up in the morning and be down there at six, see how many ships and see how many what I want, so many dockers on each ship, sometimes they'd want say six, sometimes eight. There might be another house foreman want a man who would stand on the house and and they want a checker, so I'd go all these men for these different ships, that was my job, being chief foreman stevedore. [speaker001:] Where would you draw these men from? [George:] From the, from the pool, see there used to be a, there used to be a pool, near lock gates, that's where they used to be. One time that used to be further in the dock and I used to be... let the erm, the manager know, the pool manager, cos at one time before the war, dockers were erm casual and when the war started, then they thought theirself, right we're gonna make er dockers more or less permanent, so they all come under the Ipswich Dock Commission then. Instead of having they had to come through the Dock Commission all of the men, they wanted so and so men for that boat, they used to come through to me. [speaker001:] Before that though, and had their own men [George:] Had their own men [speaker001:] unload the boats? [George:] unload the boats, yes. They [speaker001:] They were employed directly by [George:] That's right but they all came [speaker001:] ? [George:] They used to work say one week and have about a month off or go on the dole for a month. [speaker001:] So then what happened was, did the Dock Commission say you can't have your own men any more? [George:] That's right they had to go on a rota. [speaker001:] Run by the Dock Commission? [George:] Run by the Dock Commission. See the dockers then all got together and they said right so many men for that job, so many for that job and that didn't matter who they were, they had to their job, all the way round the dock. [speaker001:] Whether they wanted to go on that job or not? [George:] Whether they want to go or not, they take their turn and the employer had to pay a percentage into the pool what those men earned, so when those men hadn't work at all they drew their money from the National Dock Labour Board. [speaker001:] Is this where the National Dock Labour Board came into existence? [George:] That's how how they come into existence, yes he was a man what introduced that. [speaker001:] When was this? [George:] Oh that's er, I would say about nineteen forty roughly [clears throat] I'd say about nineteen forty that came in, might have been before that. [speaker001:] Before that then if they were ill [George:] They get nothing. [speaker001:] Could they not get any welfare benefit? [George:] No. No they get nothing, they'd get, all they went on the dole, well they used to get, they used to get erm, say yeah well you would get welfare benefit what we call the club, you go on the club and you see used t I, my, apparently had a private club, you could have both you see [clears throat] you had the private club and you got so much from the government, the National Health. The dockers even today, see they're still got the, still got the erm National Dock Labour Board but now the employers wanna do away with it. [speaker001:] Do they? [George:] They wanna do away with that now making these men redundant. Now they're not doing so much that many thousands of pounds, that lot 'em took it some didn't. [speaker001:] But they'll still need men won't they? [George:] They'll still need men, yes. [speaker001:] They can't do away with them altogether? [George:] They won't do away with them, no but cos they, they're trying to do away with the National Dock Labour Board and come back to the old system. [speaker001:] What just the having casuals again? [George:] Casuals or employing their own men, what they want I suppose [cough] [speaker001:] Why did the work, why was the work so casual, was it because boats [George:] Well you could never, you could never rely on shipment, cos one time you'd get a lot of shipment and the next time you might be six weeks and get no shipment, so who's gonna pay them their money? [speaker001:] Mm [George:] That's the reason they brought in this here, decasualized the docks. [speaker001:] But, why did the Dock Commission decide to make it compulsory for the men to be employed by them and not by the firm? [George:] Well no, this was, this was a government thing. [speaker001:] That was the government [George:] It was a government thing it wasn't the Dock Commission. See they said righto, the employer has gotta be the Dock Commission. They, they haven't gotta be or or. No of the port is the Dock Commission. [speaker001:] And what was the reaction to the Dock Authority over this? [George:] Oh, they didn't mind. [speaker001:] They didn't mind? [George:] Oh, they didn't mind they were getting their money they, they were getting paid for when they were going home. See they used to get the, they used t what they call they used to report for work at say quarter past seven in the morning and then they be at work at half past seven, but now of course they don't now, they, I think they start about eight o'clock now. If there's no work for 'em they can go home for the day. [speaker001:] And they get paid? [George:] And they get paid, they say about used to, used to be seven and six pence [clears throat], something like that, but er course today that's different altogether. [speaker001:] So really that was an improvement for the dockers, wasn't it? [George:] Oh, goodness, yes. [speaker001:] Dock paying for them. [George:] That was, yes. Big improvement. [speaker001:] So when you say you used to go up to the pool. The pool is where everyone used to collect? [George:] That's right, yeah. [speaker001:] What would you do then? [George:] I'd, I would go through to the pool man and say right, I want so many men for the Rotterdam, I want six men for purpose. Cliff Quay, I want four men South West Quay on the coal boat for boat. I want eight men on a coal boat at Quay. He'd send them then, he every dock was numbered from one to hundred and thirty and he'd say righto, number one so and so, number five so and so and of course when they come back to the pool, they'd go on the end of the rota. See so after men finished they would, there'd be a steady turnround all the time. [speaker001:] So they all have to be quite adaptable [George:] Yeah, they can do anything. Carrying timber, making timber, carrying bags or today. None of it. [speaker001:] Did any of them ever resent having to do particular jobs? [George:] Some, yeah some did. Oh yes I know one man there now, well he's so dumb he'd rather go down the hold, than he would do marking the pencil and paper. Course he can't do pencil and paper. He's so thick, you know he'll say right I'll go down the hold, I'll do the humping, what they call humping, he'll do that, loading these slings or bags, rather than him standing there and say well ten bags in that sling, put ten down, he couldn't do that, so he'd rather go down the hold [clears throat] that's happened. [speaker001:] Did you prefer, prefer being a stevedore to driving the crane? [George:] Oh, yes I did, oh yes, it was more of a job, it was,. [speaker001:] In what way? [George:] I had more responsibility. you u u use your brain a bit more, see now if er they used to come to me, my brother was one, he'd come to me and he'd say, right I've got a heavy lift, so will you come up here and sling it for me but we had to put the slings round the heavy lift, say, I say right I'll come up and another time we had a railway carriage come down like that'll be shipped abroad, old railway carriage. Well we had er, we took out all the gear for that, so I knew a lot, being a crane driver I'd know what gear I wanted but a lot of these stevedores what are on there now, they were lorry drivers and they ain't got a clue what they do, so there part of my job meant I'd go round and give advice. [speaker001:] Oh, I see, now you would draw the men you need productively and go off and get the job done? [George:] That's right, yes. See like erm l l l lorries and all like that, caravans, I mean I, caravans, we used to load the small ones and er we used to have two bars go underneath with a bit of wood on top and we used to have one hand on one end while they cos that was a damn nuisance. So I thought, in my wisdom I thought, there was easier way than that,wh at one bar and I had one rope come under the draw bar with a tow bar, so I said right one bit of rope, one bar, so all the docker gotta do now is take the bar out, take the rope off, that was alright and you could stow 'em on the, on the deck. They were all happy about that. [speaker001:] And the Dock Commission didn't mind you changing the [George:] more I did I never got anything for but that was easy for the dockers and easy for me. [speaker001:] Mm mm. [George:] I mean, one time, for gear, then they don't, we don't make slice ropes at one time. They don't slice 'em now. [speaker001:] And you had to that yourself? [George:] We had to do that, the stevedores had to do that, my first of stevedoring. Make rope strops. We used to get a collar of rope, manilla rope, put it on to a truck and used to stretch it out first and then cut off the lengths. We always stretched the rope first, before you spliced it. [speaker001:] And what was that used for? [George:] Well for slings, getting bags out of the hold... see the whole job was so interesting, when you were doing these jobs that was interesting all the time. [speaker001:] Did that take you on to different boats from [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Did that take you on to different boats from [George:] Oh, goodness yes [speaker001:] different parts of the world? [George:] [clears throat] I used to, no I only went away on er, we only went to Rotterdam once, that's all. I had to go over there just to see how dockers worked over there, to see if I could improve it here, well I couldn't because dockers wouldn't do what they, they were doing in Holland. [speaker001:] Why was that? [George:] Well they had one man in the hold and they used to have a fork lift in the hold, in Holland, with one man and he could do that job and they sent one man ashore, well over here we had four men in the hold and two men ashore. Well the dockers wouldn't have it here. No, had to keep this four men instead of two. [speaker001:] Why wouldn't they? [George:] They wouldn't do it, no. [speaker001:] Why? [George:] Oh, well er doing away with four men weren't it? [speaker001:] Mm [George:] You see well they were employing two over in Holland, we were employing six. [speaker001:] Have things changed these days? [George:] Oh they changed on account of all containers you see. [speaker001:] Yes. So eventually the they had to give in in the end. [George:] Oh they do yes, well because nowadays, because they got more men on each job now than they really want. I mean that there's half of them go down the dock now, they don't do anything. [speaker001:] Don't they? [LAUGHTER] [George:] No, but they, they get the money for it. [clears throat] [speaker001:] In the early days, back to the early days, what sort of boats would come into Ipswich Docks? Would they be sailing or steam? [George:] Er [speaker001:] Going back to [George:] sails [speaker001:] your early days down the docks. [George:] Sails, well we had one or two sailing ships in my early days come up but the majority are steam. [speaker001:] What sort of sailing ships were they? [George:] Well three masts, four masts, ships but we didn't have many of them, we only had about two or three come up and they came from Australia [speaker001:] Did they? [George:] for a week, and th that in the holds then they were all, that was, we was hauling sacks, what they used to call erm and they used to bring 'em out, out of the hold on a, on a winch, and put them on the scale and weigh 'em and that's what they used to call catch weights. [speaker001:] Catch weights? [George:] Catch weights, so don't matters what it was but that man who was weighing them he got no brains, if [clears throat] one was overweight and go down, the next one gotta be underweight and he'd take that off that and put it on that, he was so quick,wh that's what he, he was a good checker, they were good men then [cough] [speaker001:] did you say? [George:] job they ever done. [speaker001:] That was the only thing he ever did? [George:] That's the only thing he ever done to go and catch weight on all wire. [speaker001:] Catch or ketch? [George:] Catch, catch, catch weights. [speaker001:] [spelling] K E [] [George:] No I think you'd call it a C [speaker001:] catch [George:] catch yes [speaker001:] [spelling] C A T C H [] [George:] Yeah [speaker001:] catch weight [George:] Catch weights And it was up to him to adjust the weight Adjust the weight from one to the other, one sack to the other. [speaker001:] Would they be unloaded quickly? [George:] Well, pretty fair, because then they used to go down Botterman's Bay and where they used to er, the dock was in the hold, that was all loose grain and they used to put four bushels to the, so they used a bushel skip like that,wh which was a wooden one with a handle each side and they'd go into the wheat [speaker001:] Was that about two foot four? [George:] That's right and they'd do into the wheat and they'd on they'd smoothed off, one man'd had a big sack there, they hold her in, they had this one they build one in, he'd go one in, he'd go one and he'd go one, four, four bushels of the corn and they used to tow it up, heave it out on the scale and they used to have a little old hand basin like that, with a handle on, take a little out or put a little in, and then them men down the hold, them ones, then he'd do so many on the left and they'd change over, he'd do that way. They never kept the same place twice. [speaker001:] Why d why did they change over? [George:] Well that was a lot easier I mean you'd get used to doing one way and that man, so that's the reason they changed over, so it was more equal. [speaker001:] Mm stop the shoulders aching I would think. [George:] Well it used to be carried on the back and. [speaker001:] They'd carry the sack on their back? [George:] On the back, the bushel, yes [speaker001:] The bushel? [George:] The corn. [speaker001:] Do you know what the equivalent of is today? [George:] Not now I don't no. [speaker001:] No, I don't perhaps the children [LAUGHTER] [George:] I don't. [speaker001:] much the same now erm, what do you call it now, in that big all the rest of it now well. I mean looking at a book and see the distance between, in there they give you the distance between Leeds, Ipswich, Leicester and Scotland and then you come to kilometres and [George:] That's right. [speaker001:] that's hard job to find out what to do it is for me any rate [George:] Mm [speaker001:] I'm too, getting too old for that. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] The grain that came in was that heading for the mills? [George:] That all, that's all for the grain and then of course we used to import a lot at locust. Locust, locust beans they'd be about that length, they used to be just like a brown bean, they were dry. [speaker001:] Who imported those? [George:] Er they used to import that. [speaker001:] Do you know what they used them for? [George:] Locust beans they used to be animal feed I think. [speaker001:] Mm mm. [George:] And there's children going to school yeah, that be lovely, used to eat this locust. [speaker001:] Was it sweet? [George:] Well it was in a sense. You take this erm, that's like that's like er corn flakes. I've known when they used to deal with the flake, what they call the Flake Mill, that's er down at erm Eagle Mill down near the lock gates when they were making this here which were like corn flakes for the, for the animals and and they were dropped like this, be nice and warm and [speaker001:] You were allowed in the dock with children? [George:] Yeah, well that, that was all open you see that was all open [speaker001:] It still is today isn't it? [George:] It is still open today it ain't in some docks. [speaker001:] No. [George:] No, but it is in the fish dock. Oh dear oh dear. No the experience has been very good you know, going through life all that time. [speaker001:] What sort of changes are you aware of in the dock? [George:] Changes? [speaker001:] Over the years? [George:] Oh dear, well I could say er work has got a lot easier for a start, a lot easier and they ain't as, they ain't as, there ain't so much night work as there used to be. I mean er scrap iron, I mean I've done that erm where we've loaded scrap iron ships but they don't do none of that now and when you load scrap iron put so much in on the floor and then dockers would pull it apart and then there'd then, mean you gotta go and pull a lot of that scrap iron out, load that off, well that the stevedore would say. Do you want a couple of hours overtime tonight? So we'd go and work a couple of hours overtime or all night the scrap iron. It all depends on the scrap merchant, like they used to send a lot of scrap iron erm from Ipswich to Germany just before the war, well they used to send they reckon they send to Danzig [speaker001:] Mm [George:] and then try and ship again into Germany. That's what they reckon they used to do but he, I mean he was an old Jew, he was but he was, he was to the Germans. [speaker001:] Did that stop then during the war? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] That stopped obviously during the war? [George:] That stopped, oh yes and the last, the last erm scrap iron we loaded was er I think the, the Japanese they bought the ships, these old tr old tramps, they bought them. [speaker001:] Tramps? [George:] Tramps, yeah, yeah old car [speaker001:] Why did you call them the tramp ship? [George:] Well they was an old cargo boat, that weren't like a naval boat, they don't call it now, they don't call a naval boat a tramp, well the other ones cos they're faster and th th the old tramp, tramps it was like an old tramp on the road and erm because we used to go very slow, well th the Japanese after the war, they bought these old ships up, we loaded them with scrap iron and they took the whole lot over to Japan, and cut the whole ship up scrap iron. Do you know we had bales of, bales of til tins all pressed together as big as that machine, yeah and they'd dump into the ship and they used to have magnets, put 'em into a net and these er bales of tins, any old tins, they used to find, used to go in there, we used to tip 'em, we used to tip them into the hold they cut the ship right up and that that's what we're getting back in motor cars now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] Shouldn't be a bit surprised, and the amount of er stuff that used to come from er these ordnance places in the army. Cor, there was boxes of brand new tools come down there, spanners, and they used to be the, like these, like a big chopper, well they used to have couple of all with erm breezed up with erm like greaseproof paper over 'em, bag 'em up into the holds, guns, there was guns, what done with the guns they hit the er, just near the barrel or the trigger,th they used to flatten them out so they couldn't use 'em but they all went in the ships bombs, or little shells they used to find in there, all scrap iron. [speaker001:] And this was all being shipped out of the dock? [George:] Shipped out out of to Japan. They went to [speaker001:] Mm mm. [George:] and I reckon we now getting them back into motor cars [speaker001:] Motor cars [George:] shouldn't be a bit surprised. [speaker001:] When you were talking earlier on about the bombs and the detonator coming in, where were they stored, at the docks or were they [George:] No they right away. [speaker001:] They went straight off? [George:] Yes, straight off, yeah, [speaker001:] Where would they go to? [George:] I don't know where they went, to these aerodromes or not, I should think so [speaker001:] Mm [George:] Cos I mean they were, they were, they had so many you know, that was a lot [speaker001:] Were there are lot [George:] Oh oh cos I mean they use today they haven't got these what they call are common users on the railway now. A common user was er, just an open truck with two doors one each side and they used to put a tarpaulin over the top. [speaker001:] And then was, is the general way of transport [George:] Oh yes on the railway oh yes it was. [speaker001:] Was the railway used a lot for that? [George:] Eh? [speaker001:] Was the railway used a lot for that? [George:] Oh it was then, yes, now it ain't that's not used once a week now, cos you got all these containers, see it's still the railway and Felixstowe cos you got these here big freight trailer go on now. [speaker001:] The the engines that pulled the trucks, were they steam? [George:] Yes, steam then they got over to diesel. [speaker001:] Mm, so it sounded quite a dangerous place to be with cranes moving about and trains all over the place. [George:] Yes. Oh yeah I mean you take now the erm, you could say nineteen twenty six bloke, I remember an old union bloke, he was on the railway and er, when they cleaned the fire out, cos he used to get all the out, and er these here firemen on cool it with a that's when they first started to nationalize the docks and he said well, they er, he said waste that he said when nationalization come in, well there was a lot more wasted then after that. [speaker001:] Was there? [George:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] So when was it nationalized? [George:] Oh I don't know, just wouldn't know, just after the war, or during the war, yeah during the war, nationalize the railways. [speaker001:] Mm [George:] Yes, now it's al all back the same way again now. Now the boatmen they used to erm the name, the family of a name of, and the old man, the grandfather his name was and then they had three sons who were boatmen, one was called Arthur John, one had a nickname of Snowball, the other one's name was George and they used to er, some of them at times used to row from the lock gates out to the Cork Lightship together to get a boat, so they made sure of roping that boat in at, at er in the dock or at Cliff Quay and course they used to get the captain of the ship to sign er a bill and they used to take that to the, to the shipping agent and then he'd pay 'em the money. Course they got away with income tax out of that because they weren't, they weren't much erm to do with income tax that time, I mean my tax at that time of the year was about, at that time was about four pound a year when I was erm, when I was working and you only paid income tax once a year. It weren't, it weren't pay as you earn then. [speaker001:] How did they collect it once a year? [George:] Well they used to send you,th they used to get the returns from your employer and then they'd send you the demand note in, so then [speaker001:] put that to one side did you? [George:] so you had to put that to one side. [speaker001:] Do you think anybody ever spent too much [George:] That's in the oh a lot of people did, oh yes, lot of people spent the money but I was one of the fortunate ones I had a little bit left because I mean I was, er I was very lucky myself, I mean I had a decent job at that time from time I left school and when I was on the dredging plant, I mean you take er in nineteen twenty five when er a schoolboy left school, his money was about ten shillings a week as an errand boy but I was one of the fortunate being a cabin boy on the dredger, I was getting thirty five shillings a week which was a lot of money and then after a few months they, I, they wanted another deck hand, so of course I went on there on four pound a week and then I was well off. That was, that was what the crew were getting four pound a week and course my father that time he done away with a cabin boy so I had to do more or less two jobs, see if I weren't working on deck I'd go down and clean the cabins and that's how, that's how we kept the money going course then after a few years when they got to the finish about nineteen thirty one then the harbourmaster turned round and he ruc reduced our wages five shillings a week, so we were getting three pound fifteen a week. [speaker001:] That was three pound fifteen shillings wasn't it? [George:] Three pound fifteen shillings yeah and that's how, that's how the work went at that time but as I say these boatmen erm they used t they used to sit down on lock gates day in and day out and didn't have a ship to come in but I've kno kno known them to row down the river at high tide or it's before high tide and there'd be another erm, there'd be other boatmen there, one was called, he went down, he used to go down and get 'em going, there used to be a race between these two families or the and the first one got the boat, the first one roped it in you see, or wh what we call roping in,moor mooring the ship up, that was [speaker001:] Did they actually have to bring it up the estuary? [George:] What they, yes, what they done, they used to have a large long pull with a hook on and attached to a rope and as the ship was coming up to the river, they would throw this here pole on to a ship with a hook and then pay the rope out and then get towed up to the quay, the ship wouldn't stop for them to pick them up, pick that boat [speaker001:] the boat would tow them? [George:] Yes, the st the er cargo boat would tow the small boat cos the small boat was only about twelve foot long, twelve to sixteen feet, all different sizes rowing boats then. [speaker001:] But the boatman's job was to moor the the [George:] To moor the ship up into th th the quay. [speaker001:] ship? So they used to know how to get there before [George:] That's right, yes The only people what did have a motor in that, at that particular time was the harbourmaster of Pinn Mill cos they always used to call er er er one bloke down there who used to moor the ships up at Bottoman's Bay and er th th th he used to get a retainer from the Ipswich Dock Commission and all he w all he had to do was make sure that was clear of, for shipping, if there was a yacht in the way he'd go and tell them to move and he was what the we used to call him Pinn Mill Harbourmaster. His name was er his name. Then after him they had an, a fella come from I think he finished up as Pinn Mill Harbourmaster, whether they got one now I don't know. [speaker001:] And he would organize the boats in, just in Bottoman's Bay and? [George:] He would he'd moored ships up in Bottoman's Bay and that's when, yeah he had a motor boat then to do that job. [speaker001:] Who would pay him? [George:] Well the agent, that be either or any agent who, who the ship belonged to, see they'd, they'd get through, no doubt they'd get through to the merchants and er they'd find out who the agent is and once they knew the agents well it was plain sailing wasn't it? [speaker001:] Mm so they were all [George:] So tha tha at that time, I mean they might get as much as three pound for mooring one ship up. [speaker001:] Really? But that had to be shared between the number of men [George:] Exactly oh yes that was shared between the men what erm, there used to be two men so they'd get er share the three pound between them or five pound whatever it was. [speaker001:] And did they, they must have had lean times if they sat around and waited for a boat, one didn't come in some days may be. [George:] They didn't get anything at all. [speaker001:] But they all sat down there waiting? [George:] All sat down there waiting for a for a ship to come in. I knew men old he was a chain smoker, he always used to smoke Woodbines and as one went out he'd light the other one er ou on it, he wouldn't use matches, no he'd, he'd light one cigarette off the other. [speaker001:] Would have been cheaper to have used matches. [George:] It would have done but he, he used to be what we called a proper chain smoker, oh he must have smoked hundreds of Woodbines in a week, must have been hundreds, that was his life. [speaker001:] And did they have any other form of income other than [George:] No, they might be on the dole or what they used to call the Board of Guardians something like that. [speaker001:] So they looked forward to a boat coming in? [George:] They looked, they looked forward to a boat coming in. I mean I know in my time when I was a crane driver if they, if one of them didn't turn up dow down at Cliff Quay they'd come along to a crane driver and they'd say, take a rope for us will you. Cos they used t what they used to do in the small boat, they used to coil so much in the then they'd row to the quay and then the they'd run ashore hid past the line and pull a river and put the bollard for 'em and then cos they'd turn round they might give us a quid for a drink you see [speaker001:] Oh I see [George:] so then they'd be about three pound or four pound in pocket and that's how they, that's how we used to help one another but once they get one rope ashore they could do it, the job see but of course there's no boatmen today now, they call theirself boatmen but there ain't one of the buggers going in a boat, I don't suppose they could row a boat now. [speaker001:] They still, they still moor them though do they? [George:] They s moor them but they're employed by the Ipswich Port Authority, the boatmen, these other men weren't. [speaker001:] So they had to,the they were purely working for themselves? [George:] I mean the man, the man what introduced that I think er was Captain the deputy harbourmaster I think, he introduced that. [speaker001:] When was that approximately? [George:] Oh that was approximately about erm, well I'm talking about now in my time it must be over twenty year ago, when he introduced that and the simple reason was there was an argument between the deputy harbourmaster and the boatmen which are the cos they used t it all happened over a ship called used to be a collier, used to run here regular and that used to discharge so much coal at Cliff Quay, then it used to go into the dock at Tolwells Quay and finish unloading because it used to bring two or three different lots of coal, it was a four hold ship, she had four holds, and there'd be one hold for the chemical works and perhaps there'd be three holds for... and that se [speaker001:] Wh what happened over that one then, you said th [George:] Well cos I letting the ships go and they, that was a night time and course I don't know what happened over, over the argument but anyhow these boatmen they lost their job, they n never been happened since cos the then the Dock Commission took over the erm roping the ships in, come under Ipswich Dock Commission. [speaker001:] Were they paid just for tying the boats up or for bringing them up the estuary as well? [George:] No just for tying the boats up, that's all [speaker001:] tying them up but when they went out to the end of the estuary that was just a case of get there first to get the job? [George:] Oh yes, I mean if they were going out to let go of the ropes. [speaker001:] Oh would they, they'd have to [George:] Yes, they'd, they'd get paid twice, oh for letting 'em go and roping 'em in, I mean when a ship was swinging there's somebody, I mean when a ship was swinging at Cliff Quay, there's somebody gotta let go of the erm, the spring what they're swinging on. [speaker001:] The [George:] When the ship was swinging round, they'd go down the river,th that here rope was still on the bollard so to throw it off [speaker001:] Oh I see [George:] when the ship was swinging round and that's what they do tod still do that today. If the ship was leaving the port the boatmen have gotta be there to let go of the ropes. [speaker001:] But they're now employed by the I P A? [George:] They're employed now by the I P A, now, so they're on a regular basis,th th th boatmen today what they call boatmen today, as I say they're not boatmen, they're just ropemen I call it. [speaker001:] Did, did the boatmen more or less live with their boats? [George:] Oh no, no, no, no the boatmen they used to g they used to be go home one stay there the other lot, others go home, they knew within reason when the ship was due. [speaker001:] Oh I see but th they live in the dock area? [George:] Well as I say dock area, they might live about half a mile away that was all. [speaker001:] so they could hear a boat coming in [George:] They'd hear it th th they wouldn't erm they'd know through the agent, when the ships were coming they used to make it their business to go and find out you see but today th they even got telephones on the houses now so they can call 'em out. [speaker001:] So just go down there as and when they're needed? [George:] There was, there was no telephones then, I mean t [speaker001:] Must have been a bit haphazard for you [George:] Oh it was yes, I mean y when you take now erm er a boatman, I mean, and he, he like today well they ring up, I mean today I know the Ipswich Port Authority they lay the phone on the houses and they pay for it for 'em [speaker001:] Do they? [George:] see so if th if they get time off and they want extra men, they phone 'em up or somebody with a boat got bloke in the erm radio tower, cos you got a radio tower on the dock now which every ship that come into port or leave the port have to go through the radio tower and that man's employed twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. I think it's about, I don't know whether it's three or four, these men in the radio tower which at that day cos you'd never had a, a radio tower. [speaker001:] How did they used to get the messages in then that they were coming in? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] How did they get the message down to the port here that a boat would be coming in? [George:] What years ago? [speaker001:] Mm [George:] Well because they used to know through the agent and of course them, them would have to hang, row down the river and hang about and would hang about for two or thr I mean when I was on the dredger them men would st they would come aboard the dredger and wait there, do nothing until the boat came up the river. [speaker001:] And they'd come on your dredger and wait with you? [George:] And they'd come up and wait them but I'd make them a cup of coffee or a cup of cocoa or something like that, there weren't coffee then cos we couldn't afford coffee we used to have cocoa or make them a mug of tea. [speaker001:] It's the other way round now cocoa's more expensive than coffee [LAUGHTER] [George:] Yeah it is yeah that's right, that's what used to happen, yeah. [speaker001:] Were the agents based at the dock? [George:] Oh no they were based in the town, at buildings, used to be at the buildings. Then they [speaker001:] Mm buildings, where's that? [George:] Well that's at the top of, [speaker001:] Oh I know it yes [George:] and [speaker001:] yes [George:] their office used to be there, now they got a place on the dock near the lock gates. [speaker001:] Were they the only agent or were there other agents? [George:] No there's they were, they were called but they were agents for their own ships. [speaker001:] Mm, were they on the dock? [George:] And they were on the dock. [speaker001:] These ones up in the town, did the boatmen used to have to go up the town to find [George:] Oh yes yeah the skippers, the skippers would go up the town cos every time a ship used to come in they got, they got to take the their papers up to the agent, what the papers were I don't really know might be a manifest or something like that, what they used to do I mean then you had erm and you had different agents now there's more agents than ever now. There's so many different things changed today as well, it's impossible really to erm keep up with it now today I would think. [speaker001:] Would you say it's better? [George:] Well I would say it's, yes, better, cos mean with th with th these erm containers you see now I mean, we had about say ten years ago we had a man here he used to deal with the all general cargo, all loose cargo from Beirut and all the Mediterranean ports but course now you got the trouble there now that's a, that's a cargo that's, what's fell away. [speaker001:] Going back to the agents up in the town, the boatmen to get information about a ship coming in they would have to go up to the town [George:] They would have to go up to the town, yes [speaker001:] and find out? [George:] and find out, yes. [speaker001:] So was there very often a race up to the town to get there first? [George:] No I think they'd got to a point where, you know, if you, if you were about erm, they made sure they were the first ones there like the and they, I think they more or less recognized by the merchants they, they were the boatmen. [speaker001:] Yeah, in the know. [George:] In the, in the know in my time and right. [speaker001:] Were there any other rival boatmen, people trying to get in on the scene? [George:] Oh yes, they, I say there was one man and the, they used to try and get in if they could. [speaker001:] Was there any erm aggression between them? [George:] No, never, no. [speaker001:] They just [George:] I mean at that time say perhaps go in the pub the or the or the, I mean there used to be so many pubs round the er, the dock area then, I mean you take the, and erm then there used to be the erm there was all them pubs round the dock then,noth one or two more but I can't re oh the was another one. [speaker001:] And they were situated on the dock? [George:] They were all situated on the dock and the is now what they call the [speaker001:] ? [George:] They call it now they just er they just made into er erm another pub, a posh pub. [speaker001:] Oh yes I saw that in the paper. [George:] yeah. [speaker001:] In the Evening Star [George:] Well it used to be, that's where the, that's where the used to be. And the used a little further past the and then there was another one further up near Cranfield well I can't remember the name of that. I can't cos they used to use that a lot. I mean men at the dockers that day they used to drink and drink heavy. [speaker001:] Did they? [George:] They did, I mean the docker at that time of day he'd take a gallon o beer into work with him. In a in the old stone jar. [speaker001:] They were allowed to drink at work? [George:] Oh yes, there weren't no argument about that, if they didn't they won't do the bloody work. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] They wouldn't, I mean they were old men [speaker001:] Bet it was thirsty work anyway wasn't it? [George:] Yeah that was I mean them, men, men were working like we was talking about a little while ago about head bags [speaker001:] Oh yes, what's a head bag? [George:] see but we had a head bag where they used to fold a sack in half or put one part through the other and put over the head. A lot o lot of these here dockers used to erm have 'em made out of calico. [speaker001:] And why did they do that? [George:] And tha when they were carrying er sacks of er fertiliser, corn, anything like that. [speaker001:] For a bit of padding or protection? [George:] No it used to be just the sacks stop the dust and go down the back and I've known the time what er, when they needed a regular gang of dockers, if they went to work on er, on er Monday morning with a dirty head bag on made of calico, they'd have to buy the beer cos they had, if they ain't got a clean head bag on or a cl clean skullcap, there used to be a little old calico skullcap they used to put on just to keep the dust out the hair and all like that. [speaker001:] Did they make these themselves? [George:] They made them themselves or the wives did. [speaker001:] Yeah, and it was their tradition was it that if one turned up with a dirty [George:] If, if one turned up with a dirty one they have to buy the beer... that's how they used to be. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] Then, course then they used to hav when the man stood in green, I knew a fella named which we was talking about a little while ago and he had a pair of lady's stockings which he used to put over his shoes to stop the grain going in and some of these people in the and, they used to have erm, like er string soles with like calico boots and they used to tie them on tight. [speaker001:] String soles? [George:] String soles. [speaker001:] Wh wh [George:] Well they used to be like er, used t as you used to braid your hair, they'd braid a bit o rope and they'd, they'd make a sole out of that. [speaker001:] Why, why did they make soles of it? [George:] Well the they'd, then they'd sew it on to the calico or the firm would do it for 'em. [speaker001:] Well why did they do it? [George:] Well they were a lot easier, pliable. That's what they used to have f for, for grain. [speaker001:] for walking in the grain? [George:] Walking in the grain, yes. I mean once you get er in the, say you get on in grain and you got leather shoes on, well you'd roll but th when you got, when you got rope, these rope soles, cos they used to grip on the grain, they wouldn't slip about. [speaker001:] And they made them themselves? [George:] And well they, some of them made them themselves, some of them, they were supplied by the merchant. [speaker001:] Mm [George:] Lot o think a lot of them were made, supplied by the merchant and they were made properly by the erm, you can say sh you can say er er any shoemaker perhaps or they'd be a factory what made so many pairs like. [speaker001:] When they, when they stopped using them do you think anybody kept them as [George:] Oh goodness I don't think, I think they stopped using them during the war and I cr see that used to be like the gasworks, the gasworks you always used to have clogs, they used to have wooden soles, did the gasworks and then they used to have erm like a steel bar underneath or round the sole [speaker001:] Why was that? [George:] and that, well th well that was cos there used to be all hot cinders you know like coke, red hot coke and they always had clogs then with leather tops. [speaker001:] To protect the feet? [George:] Yes an I mean and I mean in winter time a wooden sole and a clog they wer they were nice and warm cos I mean you only used to polish 'em you used to put oil on them. [speaker001:] Did you? I mean I bought one or two pair of clogs when I was on the dredger and we'd take the iro iron piece off underneath, that's just like a, a shoe what a horse have, like go round the Oh yeah. [George:] They use t they used to put th the band round the bottom of the wooden shoe [speaker001:] What on the front or the back? [George:] No unde right under on the sole. [speaker001:] On the sole? Yeah, right on the sole and cos we used to take them off the iron and put a bit of leather on and grease the uppers with neat's-foot oil and they were really lovely and warm in the winter. Did many people wear clogs? [George:] Oh yeah a lot of people, lot of people wore clogs then. [speaker001:] Working on the dock? [George:] Working on the dock yeah. I mean the they're a lot better than other shoes. [speaker001:] What sort of people wore them? [George:] Anybody, anybody pair of clogs from the gasworks. [speaker001:] Mm. [George:] Cos they use t they used to supply them. [speaker001:] They supplied them? [George:] They supplied them t to their employees cos if they got an old pair they want to wear, they'd flog another one for about five bob. [speaker001:] Oh I see [LAUGHTER] they'd put in for a new pair and sell the old pair? [George:] They would, yes. That's what used to happen. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] But where did the gasworks get them from, do you know? [George:] No I don't know, they were made by some factory. [speaker001:] They weren't made locally? [George:] Oh I sh I suppose they might have been but where they were made I, cos I mean you get like they used to b they used to deal in all shoes, no doubt they got them from them. [speaker001:] I believe they still do trade don't they? [George:] I mean yeah somebody just retired, cos is down on the now, that's where is. [speaker001:] Were they trading round the dock area? [George:] No I don't know, no co cos they ha they had a shop in I mean that's not far from the docks. [speaker001:] Did the did the port supply you with any protective clothing at all? [George:] The port they didn't supply you with anything, my father was captain of the dredger Dredging Plant and they didn't even supply him with a hat. Now they get everything. That's the truth that is. [speaker001:] So you had to buy your own stuff then? [George:] You had to buy your own stuff, I bought a pair of thigh boots and they were all made with leather and he and I used to put neat's-foot oil on them and I could roll them down just like a b just like a boot. they were so s the leather was so soft and they didn't put nails in the soles, they put wooden pegs. [speaker001:] To hold the soles on? [George:] Wooden pegs in your sole, they used to drill 'em and they used to put wooden, and them wooden pegs would n they'd never come out, cos if you put nails in, the nails would rust. [speaker001:] What was this because you were standing in water a lot? [George:] That's right yes and th the Corporation had to sewage out four ways to s supply 'em. I think that's where they got the idea and they used to be all leather, thigh boots. [speaker001:] Was that the salt water [George:] Salt water [speaker001:] rust them? [George:] and was taken out o the they don't do, they don't do the work now they used to do and years gone by. I mean I've seen men work underneath the sewage and now of course that's all manica mechanical. [speaker001:] Where was the sewer outfall? [George:] Sewer outfall was down at erm Earth Point near the Power Station is now and th and the Yeah and the sewage is still down there. [speaker001:] And that still comes out the same place? [George:] That's, that's still down there just so that was all mech mechanical... me [speaker001:] further down the river then? [George:] No sewage outfall is just the other side of the Power Station, that's where it is. [speaker001:] In the olden days, what did they used to have to do down there? [George:] there, I mean in the older days they used to have a li little railway and they used t used more or less take all the sewage on to his land and there used to be couple little trucks where you tip over and they'd be one down and one up, on and he, old he used to, used to be his, put on his land. [speaker001:] What fertiliser? [George:] Fertiliser. They weren't such thing as, as er fertilizer what there is today, liquid fertiliser none like that there was all human fertiliser. He used to u used to use tons and tons of that at the sewer outfall. [speaker001:] was on the foreshore. Was it? [George:] No is near the where the is now. [speaker001:] Mm [George:] Where the is that's where used to be. [speaker001:] What they had a railway run down from there? [George:] And they used t they used to have a little, they used to have a railway from the sewer outfall, a little one, narrow one, there used to be, as I say used to have a machine up the top of the hill and they used to pull one down and one up. [speaker001:] To the farm? [George:] Farm yes, that's how they used to do it. [speaker001:] Were they the only people that used to use it like that? [George:] That's about the only people that I know of and then, cos later years I would say that they used to cart so much into the erm, into the other farms round here. I mean I've known lorries to go down and get out the human manure [speaker001:] Did they? [George:] from there and now course they got shipped out and then they used to be a ship as well, used to take it to sea called the [speaker001:] Did they? Go from Ipswich? [George:] Used to go from Ipswich, they used to be the number one and they had the number two and the number two, she got blown up in Harwich Harbour. [speaker001:] What during the war? [George:] During the War, Second World War number two. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Was she carrying anything at the time? [George:] Yeah she was. Yeah I know, I don't know whether she was going out or coming in but they got one there now and I think they th the one they got there now I don't know whether the Corporation, that's theirs or whether that's put out to contract and I think that's put out to contract now. [speaker001:] What th they still take it do they? [George:] Oh yes, they, oh yes, yeah it's all pumped in and pumped out now. [speaker001:] Mm. How was it put in in the olden days? [George:] Well that was p that's was through the tube I suppose. I know what when we were dredging down there, we used to have er what we call our safe chains and when we were first dredging down there you'd put your chain in, hands were all purple. [speaker001:] Purple? [George:] All purple. [speaker001:] Why? [George:] That was the mud, cos they used to put so much sewage into the river... [speaker001:] W why did it make it purple? [George:] And course that used t that used to go down on the bed and when you pulled that be there so many years, your hands all went purple and that'd be days before that went off. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] Days [speaker001:] Did you eat your sandwiches? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Yeah, true, yeah [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] Yes yo your hands used to be purple an and the brass work on the dredger cos we had, we had a little bit of brass work they all used to turn green and to clean it, used to turn green. [speaker003:] They used to say the brass is on the other side of the river used t [George:] Well yeah th well that used to turn green, tell you that now. [speaker001:] And it was all to do with the sewage? [George:] All to do with the s I mean th the Dock Commission they claimed a lot of money off the Corporation I think over that cos they [speaker001:] Did they? [George:] they came down with a lot o little bottles and they filled all them bottles up with the mud and they took 'em away and anal analyzed 'em and proved that it was erm human manure you see. [speaker001:] Contaminated? [George:] Sewage. [speaker001:] Wasn't that how? [George:] Well I suppose it was then but course at that time of day well what we used to suffer with, you suffer with diphtheria and scarlet fever and yo you don't hear that today do you? [speaker001:] No that's all gone now. [George:] You don't hear scarlet fever, diphtheria like that. That's all gone, done away with. [speaker001:] I suppose in that way it's an improvement isn't it? [George:] Oh it is an improvement, oh yes. Definite, I mean there's not the sewage go in the river now, I don't think anyway. Cos that was about, that must have been about erm er I'd say time about, yes I should say about nineteen, nineteen thirty four and they built a pipeline out from the sewer outfall and they put two dolphins out there, and they reckon that the water, when it's purified just to go into the river was really clean water. [speaker001:] When you say dolphins, what do you mean by that? [George:] Well they like little, they were like little concrete stages, they was two and the they were in the river off, off this side, they were this side of the Hall Bridge. [speaker001:] And what did they do? [George:] But they, they wanted to protect this here erm, the pipeline what went into the channel. [speaker001:] Oh to stop the ships from [George:] That's right yes. [speaker001:] going over to it, I see. When you were talking about your dredging earlier on, you used to take th the soil that you dredged up in the mud, in your dredger out t employ the hoppers out to sea. How did you dispose of it [George:] Well the point was you see, we had a dumb hopper, the dumb hopper was towed by an old tug, they had to tow that dumb hopper to sea, what was called dumb cos they ain't got no engines and so that was towed to sea and then course the er the dumb hopper ha had four winches, hand winches and then they, cos they had the chains on the but the steam hopper [speaker001:] What are the? [George:] The are on the side of the hold. Now the sides of the hold and the, the chains used go down, they didn't have wires they had chains go down and with a big ring on the top and then when you'd the door out, knock the pin out and the door would drop down the mud and cos the ship would come up because she got two side tanks on er a tank each side to bring the ship out of the water. Now [speaker001:] What with water from the tank? [George:] just air, air was in the tanks the hot water in sea weren't it? [speaker001:] Mm [LAUGHTER] true. [George:] So if y if you if you er what did happen. I mean if you fill a, fill a tank with water that's gonna sink and now the steam hopper had a strong back on [speaker001:] A strong back? [George:] a, a, a strong back which was er er say a, a what we call a back in the centre of the ship and course the d n th the steam hopper could heave their own doors up by the steam winch. They could put the hook in there and they could lower doors away so there's no need for the, cos many a time in the dumb hopper when you knock that pin out, they go down with the force and it'd break and it'd break the er the chain, the chain link. Then we had to then fiddle about and get the chain up with a big pole and heave that up and we always knew that if a dumb hopper come back and they'd what we used to call they'd lost a door, one of the doors used to break, used to be about I would say erm eight doors in the hold, separate doors and if one of them broke they'd fiddle about with a big, what we would call a pole with a hook on trying to get hold of the chain and we'd see that there pole sticking up out of the hold, we knew they lost a door so what they used to do they used to leave with the dredger and we'd finish that off before we load it, had to. [speaker001:] What you had to fix the door? [George:] We had to fix the door then then of course the with the big tow on the other dumb hopper to sea. [speaker001:] Crikey! Could you fix the door from inside or fr or did you have to do it from outside? [George:] No you have to, you'd, you'd, you'd do it in the middle in the hold, not in the middle of the hold on the side of the hold, where your, where your air tank was. Once you've got that you could fiddle around with that and we used to lower a station down, tie the end, we'd do the best we could to do it. We'd always get one, we never lost one yet. And course they were on hinges, the doors, on er the hinges on in the centre hole under the water and course you always knew where then to, where to fit what we used to call fish for th fish for the chain. [speaker001:] So with the pole? [George:] With the pole and a big hook on. [speaker001:] And how did [George:] And when we got and once we got that then [speaker003:] I don't know [LAUGHTER] [George:] we'd, we'd tie, we'd tie a wire round the pole and heave that up you see so far but you couldn't pull the chain up. [speaker001:] So you, you heaved it up by winch? [George:] We heaved it up on hand winch, yes. That's how the work used to be. Cos we used to swear like hell if they'd lost a door [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Made a lot of work for you. [George:] That made work for us. [speaker001:] And you say these doors were in the water? [George:] The, the d doors were in the water right low, they were, they were low say you wouldn't have had say about three foot of water in the hold. Because once the ship come up that's still a certain amount of water in the hold which that must be, cos then once you heave your door up then of course you load your ship again and then cos your ship was going down the more mud you put in, course mud is heavier than water [speaker001:] Yes [George:] that's why I reckon we, we got a river bed because erm they say mud is heavier than water. [speaker001:] Mm. Was there a lot of mud on the river bed? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Was there a lot of mud on the river bed? [George:] Oh goodness yes there's mud, there was like Cliff Quay you had, you had your mud and when you come to chalk and further down the river you come to ballast near, near Al near the Albridge and further down you come to peat, then you come to green clay, then you come to Cattoes you c you start to dredge ballast again, Pinn Mill you'd dredge ballast and then right away down to the sea you'd dredge ballast. [speaker001:] Where was the peat? [George:] Peat was Al Alfreston [speaker001:] Did they use it for anything? [George:] and when we and when we were dredging that up, that used to be all like er er trunks of trees and you could, I mean you could see it when they come up it was very light. I mean you could never load er, you could never load a hopper down to its plimsoll mark with peat, that was so light and cos you couldn't put any more in so you used to have to take it to sea perhaps we we well you would call it half loaded. [speaker001:] Yeah. [George:] Bu but your hopper was full. [speaker001:] But with only half the weight on there? [George:] And only half the weight. [speaker001:] So when you had peat on, were your doors in the water then? [George:] Oh yes [speaker001:] The hopper door? [George:] Yes they were in the water. Cos they we yeah [speaker001:] They were right on the bottom of the boat [George:] They were on the bottom of the boat, you see. [speaker001:] We when you say on the bottom, sort of was the bottom put on the side slightly? [George:] No no, cos e on the bottom of the ship used to have your, a, your keel of your boat so that is in the centre of the ship [speaker001:] Yes. [George:] so therefore then your doors were connected by hinges to the keel and from the keel to the cones, that's where your door was, so that'd swing on the keel and then your chains were fixed to the other end of the door and you hauled that up on your cones. [speaker001:] Mm [George:] Then put the pin in, then you could load your hopper. [speaker001:] Yes.... wonder who designed it? [George:] Pardon? [speaker001:] I wonder who designed it? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Well I don't know that must have been some clever fella to do it didn't he? Like there is today, I mean things are altered when you get a ship now, when you get the dredger what was in the East Anglia Daily Times er yesterday, where a ship open in half, so th they load it with a grab and that go to sea and ship open in half, drop it down so there's no doors. There again you see they can still muster out the air tanks, keep it afloat. [speaker001:] To keep it clear of the water when they empty it now? Yeah. [George:] Yes [speaker001:] Moving on from the, the dredger back to when you were a stevedore you used to sort out the different work for the, for the men, where did you used to congregate first thing in the morning? [George:] Well I used to have me own office down at Cliff Quay. [speaker001:] Whereabouts was that? [George:] That was at er was near factory. [speaker001:] And would all the men come to your office? [George:] No they'd go to the Pool Manager. [speaker001:] And where was the? [George:] The Pool Manager what lo he at the finish, where he is now, he's at the lock gates. [speaker001:] Do they still meet there today? [George:] And they still meet there today and they get er [speaker001:] Is it a covered building or do they just meet outside? [George:] Er no there's a covered building and he reallocate the men right away, quarter past seven in the morning. [speaker001:] In your days did they have the building then? [George:] Oh yes they, that was further in t that was further in the dock [speaker001:] Whereabouts was that? [George:] and that, that Pool Manager wasn't employed, there's a Pool Manager now but he only give the information to the National Dock Labour Board. [speaker001:] Mm. [George:] But the man what was Pool Manager is employed by the I P A now. [speaker001:] Mm. Whe where did, in your day where was the, the pool? [George:] The pool was just bel just beside the harbourmaster's office just a little further where it is now, cos what we had, what we call the yard, that's where the engineers' workshops was, the carpenters' shop, which is still there and then little further up th up the Newcut East there was the pool place for the National Dock Labour Board. [speaker001:] Oh The National Dock Labour Board is still there isn't it? [George:] That's still there, yes [speaker001:] Oh I know where you mean, [George:] That he'd do that in the morning as a little part time job for 'em, and all he'd do is erm, the Pool Manager, which is at Lock Gates, he know what ships come in the day before and he really know the man and then in the morning they'd say well so and so ship has arrived but perhaps he might know it, then he'd send, he'd know what men to send and this, cos I, I used to get the latest information, they didn't worry him, they worried me about lates latest information... and of course we knew what ships was due for the next day so we knew what allocation we wanted. [speaker001:] Did you ever have not enough work for the number of men you had? [George:] Oh goodness yes, they have today. Today I mean they, I mean when you take, years and years ago when there used to be man handling everything same as timber, I mean we had about three hundred dockers then. [speaker001:] Good many then? [George:] Yeah, three hundred, now today you only got hundred and thirty because they the manual work. That's all mechanical you see. [speaker001:] When you had... too many men for the jobs that needed doing, did the men get paid? [George:] They get paid through the National Dock Labour Board. What they call stand-by money. [speaker001:] Stand-by? [George:] What they call stand-by mo they do today, they still guarantee a day's, it ain't much mind you but they still get guaranteed so much a day. [speaker001:] On flat rate? [George:] Flat rate. [speaker001:] And then they got more if they worked [George:] If they, they got they got piecework or they got th th the, they get either piecework or they get so much for the job so much, an hourly rate for the job. [speaker001:] Was there a time when they didn't get paid if there was no work? [George:] Well, before the National Dock Labour Board. [speaker001:] Mm mm. [George:] See he was the man what brought in decasualization during the war. [speaker001:] Mm. [George:] That's when you had a coalition government and erm then course he, they denationalized the docks then and course now ther one or two docks the they're putting 'em, making 'em redundant because I said there's not the manual work today, that's like London, Liverpool. See dockers are only protected, when they say they go on strike, they're only protecting their own jobs in my opinion. They're protecting their own jobs. Why should we have bloody machines doing work when human beings should be doing it? I mean a machine,d well they do, they do carry timber but you gotta have the men there haven't you? [speaker001:] That's true, yes. [George:] I mean y when th I mean a gang on a timber boat, they'd be ten men and one hatch man and that's eleven men. [speaker001:] Hatch man. [George:] Ha er a man on the hatch,t to tell the crane driver what to do or where to go, well you w you would have four men in the hold making up slings of timber. Then you would have six men ashore that carry it away and stack it but course now today they don't do that. That's come already in lengths, already slung so all the dock you got, you ain't got so many dockers there. [speaker001:] So you just need your crane driver really to un to unload the? [George:] That's all you want the crane driver and about three or four dockers, that's what you want, instead of eleven dockers. [speaker001:] When you said they used to carry it away, to stack it, on dock. [George:] They used to stack it on the quay. [speaker001:] On the quay? [George:] Yeah. And then course that used to be different, er used to be different size timber two by sixes, four by twos, inch by one, er inch by ou I mean inch [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] inch by two and you had to tell these dockers what size it was and they'd take it out of that particular stack. [speaker001:] Mm and then what happened [George:] And then after that when the ship was finished, then they used to sort that all out, the timber, different sizes, then y and then or were there, their own people to stack the timber and when they stacked it, they stacked it and they used to put splines between each layer of timber and that was to season the timber. [speaker001:] Oh what to let the air through? [George:] Let the air through. [speaker001:] Mm. [George:] But now they don't even do that. [speaker001:] What happens to it now? [George:] That's all bundled up and that's why half the bloody stuff is rotten [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] before you get it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Didn't last very long. [George:] Well tha that is so today. [speaker001:] Was everything that was unloaded off the boats stacked on the quay? [George:] Not everything. I mean we import but we imported once erm, like lemon peel and orange peel [speaker001:] What is that? [George:] in, in barrels. Now that was er, it was er or they were oranges what had been cut in half and they had the centre taken out so it was just the orange peel and that was pressed into these barrels, filled with water and that was then brought up on to the quay, left on the quay and that used to go to. Every so often they'd come down and they'd take the bung out and put more water in. [speaker001:] Why did they do that? [George:] That was your candy peel. [speaker001:] Candy peel? [George:] Candy peel what you eat. Cakes, you we that's lemon peel and that's how all these oranges were cut in halves, scooped out the orange and then all put in, one bit in the other. [speaker001:] Why did they keep adding water? [George:] Well to keep, keep it all, keep this candy peel moist, well keep the peel moist. I mean once or twice when we unload it the beer barrel break and when they, be surprised you'd never get it back together again. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] Never. Cos they s cos that's compressed in, these barrels, and that was all done abroad and once these barrels broke, well you couldn't do nothing about it but we never, they never, there was none of that wasted, never. They always used to cart it away I suppose to wash it and use it. [speaker001:] Did they? [George:] That was candy peel. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] We had, I think we had about two ships of that, that's all. [speaker001:] Yeah. Did you ever get any cargoes that split or broken? [LAUGHTER] [George:] Oh goodness yes. Yeah, I mean they, even wool, we had begin th f beginning the war. [speaker001:] Wool? [George:] Wool we had big bales of wool come in and once wool was packed together and banded, that was heavy. [speaker001:] Did it ever break open? [LAUGHTER] [George:] some of it did, yes. The bands' d break, cos they never used to worry about it. [speaker001:] What happened to it then? [George:] I don't know they used to cart it away. I mean er down the dock now they got a, one big warehouse there now. In my time they erm, the sugar beet, sugar beet pulp. We exported that, now you don't see so much sugar beet pulp now. I think that's animal feed. [speaker001:] Yes it is. [George:] Sugar beet pulp. Well y it always used to be stowed down at, come from er Sprawton and stowed on the dock, [speaker001:] From the sugar beet factory? [George:] From the sugar beet factory. Cos I mean sugar beet pulp was very light [speaker001:] Mm it was dried wasn't it? [George:] Yeah dried, that's just like little pallets. [speaker001:] Yeah. [George:] That's what it used to be. [speaker001:] And who did they used to export that for? [George:] Well we loaded one ship for America... and we put so much in [speaker001:] But when stuff came down the dock to people off, on to a boat, would that be stored in a warehouse first and then go on to the boat or would it be [George:] No they come with the lorries and we'd load it direct. [speaker001:] Direct? [George:] Direct, the same as erm fertiliser coming in, a lot of lorries would come down there and get the fertiliser, different say merchants, different farmers, they used to go through the agent and they'd buy so much off the agent, this different fertiliser if couldn't supply it, what they wanted. [speaker001:] So the men had to be there at the right time you had t? [George:] Oh well, you you'd be waiting. [speaker001:] So it all had to be organized really didn't it? [George:] Oh it did, yes. [speaker001:] To make it work. [George:] Yes. You had different, different companies do the, do the job so you used to get say I mean th you get a receiver for that cargo, well it, perhaps he got so much for receiving that cargo, then that was his job then to allocate it to different people... but he, cos that was another job for him which you don't do now. There ain't receivers now. [speaker001:] How do they work it now? [George:] How they work I don't know. How they work it now. I don't know. Things have altered so much now. [speaker001:] So i years ago then there was a lot of smaller jobs for a lot more people really? [George:] Oh yes. See I me so many agents, you got a lot of agents today now so...

[speaker001:] you do not mind my taking this method of answering your letter... and I hope that you, I did not put you to too much trouble to locate a recorder to listen to the tape, I am just too lazy to write it all down and think that what I have to say I can put it better in words than what I can on paper, I'll let you do that part. The first questions that you brought up [cough] was, if possible I would be very grateful to you for a brief description of the two raids to Gdynia Pole ninth of October in Colesfield tenth of October nineteen forty three. To go back to the Gdynia one on the ninth of October nineteen forty three, I have to state that when our crew arrived in England we went to er through school at Bovingdon for a couple of weeks then we were assigned to the Ninety Second Bomb Group and they wanna be sure we fit in. At that time the navigator and bombardier starting going on missions because evidently they were short so by the time the Gdynia mission came around the bombardier and the, and the er navigator had missions under their belt so this was to be my first mission. I flew as co-pilot, we had a veteran pilot who would be Aeroplane Commander, the rest of the crew was green or also on their first mission. So that on er if you look at the crew picture this is the crew that flew the first mission to Gdynia, Poland except kneeling the second man from the left is, he did not go, I flew the co-pilot position. The trip to Gdynia, Poland to me was a remarkable one by the Eighth Airforce because of the distance involved and the location of the target that was hit in the daytime. I feel sure that the German Luftwaffe must have looked at it especially the leaders, and saw where the Eighth Airforce hit and seeing what we did and gave them some thought and consideration, actually with our Bomb Group going in we had no fighter attacks on the way in over the target, we had flack but we did not have air opposition, then on the way back we crossed the Danish peninsula and I think of course by this time the Luftwaffe knew we were coming back that way, and they had the fighters up there and this was our first time being on this mission that we saw air to air combat with the fighters against the flying fortress and in our ammunition, in our guns there, every fifth bullet was a tracer and it was amazing to me that as the German fighters came in it looked like just a hail of tracers going out but they were able to get in there knock down a B Seventeen and leave, it seemed, unscathed untouched it almost seemed impossible to me that a fighter could go through that many bullets and escape unharmed. Evidently I did not see fighters go down that day but I know they did but this was a first realization as if there was somebody up there to kill me and I guess this is the point at which you realize that you are going to kill them before they kill you and all of a sudden we are in combat all our lives and we take a complete change in outlook from everything because up to now everything had been practise and training just for this except we did not have that realization that they are there to kill us, who's gonna be killed first? I sent you the articles that I had in my scrapbook from Colesfield on October tenth, I am looking now at the ones from Gdynia, Poland, on October ninth and its headlines [reading] Port Libs hit Poland and Prussia with vast damage caused by wrecker raid on four targets deep in the East, Gdynia, Danzig, German plane plants are blasting great weekend blitz, Bremen and Hanover get it again []. Underneath that I have another article to which was kicked out sometime later but I have it in here, it says, raid on Gdynia would surprise to Nazis to say refugees in Sweden tell how the non Germans cheered in the streets but the two refugees eye witnesses to the American Bombing Attack on Gdynia, October ninth, reported here that the raid caught the Germans by surprise and that non German workers stood in the streets and cheered amid terrific destruction. The refugees provided this picture of the attack which occurred with deepest thrust yet made into Europe by Britain based American bombers. The Germans thought Danzig might be bombed but not Gdynia, since the latter is a Polish City. Germans were confidently walking in the streets when the alarm sounded but they didn't take it seriously and failed to go to air raid shelters. They came as a lightning surprise to them when two hundred American planes came over the city clearly visible in the cloudless sky, the Italians kept separating in two camps because of fascist and non- fascist fleet ran around frantically trying to get fog machines working, trying to obscure the target but the fog prevented warships in the harbour for putting up an effective anti-aircraft barrage. The bombers came in from two different sides of the harbour and from the direction and. Five small war... warships and one larger vessels were wrecked by the bomb hits on a dry dock. Three coal boats and three tugboats were sunk. The biggest coal crane and unloading machinery as well as six were damaged. The terrific bomb blast shattered every window in Gdynia. Headquarters for the Gestapo and police were wrecked. The Germans announced only one hundred and eighty casualties but there were at least twelve hundred German military personnel and six hundred civilians including one hundred and twenty Poles. So this was quite a mission which I believe has not been adequately covered in the history and was a forerunner of things to come and like I say we got through that mission without any damage, our gunners got to shoot at the first German fighters and we were an experienced crew with one mission under our belt. The next day we went to Colesfield. Now the mission to Colesfield was with the crew that you have pictures, have the picture of, as you look at the picture from left to right standing in the back is or I should say,,, and his home town was Louisiana, he was a waste gunner. The second man from the left to the right is his home was, the third man was a gunner and his name is his home town was Stirling Nebraska and he was the oldest man on the crew. The fourth man in is from New York City, he was the gunner and engineer of the crew, he is now deceased. The fifth man is, he was a gunner and armourer and flew in the and the man furthest on the right standing is from Chualar [spelling] C H U A L A R [] California, he was a waste gunner for two waste gunners on the each end of the standing group. Kneeling, left to right, of course there's myself and I was from New Orleans, Louisiana at that time. Second man in is and he was from Sanco Texas er he only flew a few missions with me, in training I'd had another co-pilot and er I had checked the co-pilot I had when the crew was organized out, so he could go back through and come as er as a Plane Commander with a crew. joined us just as we were ready to go overseas, he had just come out of er Flight School and of course his heart was set on being a fighter pilot and here he became a co-pilot so he was a very disappointed man and he did not stand up well in combat so there weren't too many missions, about five and I bounced him off the crew and wouldn't fly with him any more and got then other co-pilots to fly with me from our Squadron. And the third man kneeling, the navigator who was from Milford [spelling] M I L F O R D [], Utah, and the last man is and he was from Dekalb, [spelling] D E K A L B [], Illinois. Now the thing about this crew and the crews that you were talking about from the Hundredth Bomb Group, the, I guess the most famous crew from the Hundred Bomb Group is with the Roses Rivetus Now our crews were at the same time. and myself or as he was better known, came through B Seventeen Transition School at in Florida together and where the crews were formed so that the names in the Army of course are worked alphabetically, so everybody on my crew is trained with everybody on crew and their last name is just ahead erm in the alphabetic in the class that they were in, so that my navigator came from the same school, the same navigation class as. The same way with the bombardier waste gunner, radio operators, engineers and all the gunners, so that our crews were all buddy-buddy. crew and my crew were buddy-buddy from the minute we were formed, right on through, I guess you might say the rest of our lives here, even though we have not gotten together since the war but I have talked to on the phone one time when I was in New York City. The er other thing about our crew was that er one time there, I guess after was the only one that got back and they, they had to get him back on flying service. He flew to our base, the reason there all of his crew members to visit with all of my crew members. Then one time after we've had a rough mission and trying to get back on flying status an'all, we flew over to your Hundredth Bomb Group field and this did the there with crew. Once again each man visited with his own buddies that they'd gone through training with here in the States, so we feel very much attached to the Hundredth Bomb Group and. Of course this picture was taken at Tennessee, right before we went overseas to start our bombing missions so that the aeroplane behind us course doesn't have a name, was one that was used for training. So when we got overseas course we flew with the Ninety Second Bomb Group the Three Two Six Squadron and er all we were pretty well into our missions, I would say about six, seven, eight. When a new plane came in and they assigned it to our crew, it being the principle crew and we got to name it and we named our plane Skyscraper, I do have some later pictures but er it taken in front of the plane of the crew that I was flying with at that time and the ground crew in front of Skyscraper. But this is the crew and the picture that flew to Colesfield on the tenth of October of forty three and we had nothing out of the ordinary to report about that mission and that was the Gdynia Mission the day before, it certainly stands out on our minds because of the length of it and then of course the next one on the fourteenth of October to Schweinfurt which changed our lives. I don't know if you have the book by is the history of the Ninety Second Group and in case you don't have it I would just bring in about these two missions. On October ninth, the Ninety Second Group participated in the Eighth Airforce's longest mission to assault the harbour area at Gdynia, Poland on the western side of the Danzig, twenty one aircraft led by took off at eight hundred hours and twenty returned ten and a half hours later. The aircraft by Second Lieutenant failed to return, victim of savage enemy fighter attacks. The following mission to Colesfield on October tenth but Ninety Two Ninety Second planes leading the Division. excuse me failure to combat when Commanding Officer directed the attack flying. Twenty aircraft was despatched and sixteen attacked. covered the town in returning crews claimed it wiped out. Photographs made after the attack on the German Naval Base at Gdynia showed the five hundred and fifty foot liner Stuttgart burning fiercely, three other ships in the harbour were left burning and dock railway yards and workshops hit. That was directly. I was just checking here in from the book by and I was looking at the chapter here on Roses Rivetus and er... and it was on the mission to Munster here that er... Third Combat Mission once a day for three days' running was to Munster it was this ill-fated mission that made the reputation as the bloody Hundredth and of course this is the one that he only came back from. They also see that on page hundred and ninety nine, they have a picture here of crew of Rivetus and I was just getting about these names to mind, his radio operator's name was, mine was. Nobody must have been his bombardier, mine was and my navigator was and I see his would have been. His flight engineer must have been mine was. That was very interesting and I thought a good write up of and the things that he did, there to survive the World War Two and of course I go back to when the crews were formed and we flew together training at Pyo Texas and at er Dallasburgh, Tennessee and then from there went overseas, we went to er Scotville, Illinois and picked up new planes in Petermover and it was, we went to Stagen area. Now it was there that we became separated, I developed a very bad throat and could not fly, just before we were ready to leave for overseas as in his crew and the other crews that were there went on whereas I got held back and of course the way I feel about it is that that week that I got held back, saved my life. I hope this little titbit of news about the crews that were formed and especially the ones of Rivetus because that is what you're writing about, since he was the only one back from the Hundredth Bomb Group but how well we knew him in training since the two crews trained together and of course the flying part of it and myself have coordinated our flying with our co-pilots, we used to, just the two of us go up, and we would actually fly a circle around one plane over another, so one plane was and the other plane would fly circles around it and keeping up with it and this calls for close teamwork between the pilot and the co-pilot because as you're keen and went into view and... and then of course we switched roles and I would become the leader and he'd fly circles around me, training with his co-pilot. Then of course the there were area combat missions, area missions but these had nothing to do er with the work training I think that and I did and in developing of our crews so that we were able to survive and of course er our mission that we thought that would probably be the same as was on the fourteenth when we went to Schweinfurt and we made it back and not only that but we got back to England, we'd manage on about the third pass to get in to this one field and there was another plane trying to get in and they went up and bailed out and after we were eating our supper here they brought the men in the fields er where they, on the bombers' field where they had landed the never got in so they went up and set the plane on automatic pilot and bailed out because they couldn't land the plane but we managed to take them out and I think there was the... extra good flying training and I did together that made us able to survive the savage attacks that we had, he had it on the Munster mission, I had it on the Schweinfurt mission. So now that's about all I have on these two missions for you and I hope this will be of some help and er be only too glad to hear from you. You can continue on with this tape. Go on I tell you what why don't you flip it over and start on the other side, even though it says this side done, this is an old tape from a seismograph and er we were afraid to use it in our work but I think the sound's alright on it, you flip it over and where it says this side down, put that side up and use the other half of the tape and let me hear your comments back. Because if you will have a had to get a recorder to listen to this side so you might as well put something on the other side and send it to me but of course there is no rush and in return you'd be showing you take off anything or any part that you care to use.

[speaker001:] [shouting] Come in! []... [speaker002:] my son, Doctor. [speaker001:] Oh. What've you been doing to this poor soul? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Has she been bad to you? [speaker002:] He did trying to get off the drink. [speaker001:] Oh right. Aha. [speaker002:] He got two week ones then he got a four week one. But he fell back on it on Saturday there. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] So it's bad with his nerves and everything. [speaker001:] What's happened to your nerves dear?... [David:] Sleeping all day and then at night time [speaker002:] house. [speaker001:] What's making you sleep all day pal? Do you think it's the drink that's doing that? [David:] Aye it must be. Looking at one you know. [speaker001:] Let's get you... sorted out. Er what age are you now, David, sixteen? [David:] No, twenty four. [speaker001:] Are you! Already? [David:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Twenty four. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] How'd you get as old as that, eh? Fifty was it fifty two? Fifty two.... You're in, aren't you? [speaker003:] Aye.... [speaker001:] Now, do you want to go and see the specialist about this drink problem, David? I [cough] mean I can help you a certain, a certain amount, [David:] Mm. [speaker001:] but I mean er there is, there is a, a clinic, a special clinic... f for fellows that have got trouble with drink. Would you like to go and see the specialist? [speaker002:] He was going to the A A meetings [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and he was doing alright till then but his pal came back again, but I've chased him now, [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] so he's trying hard again. He says he's going to start going to his meeting again. [speaker001:] Aye. [David:] I'm too nervous, I cannae go out the house without control. [speaker001:] We can soon stop your nerves and that, that's an easy bit. That's the easy bit. [cough] We'll try this for a couple of weeks and see how things do. If this isn't enough then we'll get in touch with the specialist. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Right?... Come back and see me in, what, a fortnight today? [David:] Aye. [speaker001:] Right. Okay.... Now one in the morning, one at teatime, and two at bedtime.... Here we are David, and I've got, er now you've some special tablets to get your system boosted up again. I've given you some other special ones to take during the day just to settle your nerves [David:] Aye. [speaker001:] and take an extra dose at night to try and get you into a sleep so we can get you back into sleeping... rather than up prowling about during the night, cos it does no good at all. [speaker002:] He got a big pellet in his leg Doctor and he went for X-rays, up to Monklands, wasn't it? [David:] Aye. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] And he, he was drunk and he got into the back of his leg with his glass and he got it out, it was a great big steel [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] thing. [David:] Do you know. [speaker001:] Oh it should, it should come alright. Wh when was that David? [David:] Well I was I was me leg for a bit too But I went up to Monklands and [speaker002:] Taken X-rays. [speaker001:] X-rays. Aha. And did they did they take it out for you? [David:] No they [speaker002:] No [David:] No [speaker002:] No they [speaker001:] It's still there? [David:] I took it out the other night? [speaker001:] You took it out the other night, right? Let's have a wee look and see what it's like.... Oh aye. Aye are you gonna take the? Oh aye right, the right. That feels okay here and now all right. Keep it, keep it clean outside and inside, you don't need to, if you want to go swimming or anything, fine no problem at all. like that [speaker002:] Doctor. [speaker001:] You as well did you? [speaker002:] Aye.... [speaker001:] There you are David. We'll see you in a couple of weeks again and see how you're doing. [speaker002:] I'll have to come up I'll have to come up and see your [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right []. We'll get, I'll give you it just now. [speaker002:] Er it away, I might use it [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker002:] in my sitting room.... [speaker001:] It's an eight week, is it an eight week one you get? [speaker002:] No it's thir [speaker001:] Is it a thirteen? Thirteen weeks. [speaker002:] No, twenty six weeks,. [speaker001:] Twenty six is it? Twenty six. [speaker002:] Aye. Six months or something. [speaker001:] Six months. What was on your last line, can you remember? [speaker002:] He never [speaker001:] Just, just [speaker002:] Listen Doctor, I wonder if you could... I'm eating seven boxes of chocolate a week. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It started with the grandwean, you know, when she's and I'm taking a bit, and then I seem to get addicted to it, and I'm buying seven boxes. What's caus David says it's a lack of vitamins, [speaker001:] [whispering] No no [] [speaker002:] Is it no? [speaker001:] [whispering] No no [] [speaker002:] Do you think it'll do any harm? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Oh my God. [speaker001:] Through time it will. [speaker002:] Will it? [speaker001:] Yes. You could well get sugar [speaker002:] Oh. That's about a year ago now. [speaker001:] [whispering] Let's see if we can do something to, to help you []. Are you in? [speaker002:] Aye that's right. Aha. [speaker001:] [whispering] []. Eighty one? [speaker002:] Eighty one.... [speaker001:] There you are, you get started on that, and see [speaker002:] Oh good [speaker001:] if that can keep things under control. [speaker002:] Right. Thanks Doctor. [speaker001:] Right, okay now. [speaker002:] Cheerio. [speaker001:] Cheerio just now. [cough]

[speaker001:] [cough] Come in, come in, come in Jon. [Jonathan:] Morning. [speaker001:] Good morning. [Jonathan:] Is it? [speaker001:] Oh aye. I was laying a heavy carpet yesterday, and my [Jonathan:] Oh right. [speaker001:] my chest's full of st... [Jonathan:] It's er [speaker001:] gunge. [Jonathan:] . [speaker001:] Was it a s... this time of the month already? [Jonathan:] Aye..... [speaker001:] Good? [Jonathan:] I dunno er are you taking blood cos I've Doctor to see this afternoon. [speaker001:] Er... it's immaterial to me I mean I'm, I'm, I'm totally unprejudiced. I mean if... maybe it'd be better if he does it Jon because he [Jonathan:] Oh I was [speaker001:] Aye. [Jonathan:] I was thinki no I'm no being facetious. [speaker001:] No no no no no no no [Jonathan:] It's just [speaker001:] I'm just thinking. He'll, cos he'll see the results then, [Jonathan:] Aye. [speaker001:] and there's less chance of them getting lost because if we send it over to Monkland and it comes back here, it goes to Doctor, you know how he's all over the place, [Jonathan:] [cough] [speaker001:] and he's doing it all day, seeing [Jonathan:] clinic. [speaker001:] as he's got Strathclyde, and he's got er [Jonathan:] Aye. [speaker001:] Stonehouse as well. May be better if he does it this afternoon pal [Jonathan:] Well that's [speaker001:] for, you know for, for the sake of getting the, the, the stuff all in the right place at the right [Jonathan:] Aye [speaker001:] time. [Jonathan:] Aye aye. [speaker001:] But urine test, absolutely fine, no problem there at all young Jon. [Jonathan:] That's smashing.... Got a wee bit of reaction to the Sulfasalazine and the penicillin, mind. [speaker001:] Oh right, aye. [Jonathan:] Er... normally thirst. [speaker001:] Right. [Jonathan:] I'm drinking water and and tea [speaker001:] That's okay. That's alright. Anything. [Jonathan:] Coffee. [speaker001:] Anything at all. [Jonathan:] But that's about the most I had. I started off at the s at the start I was er I was getting mouth ulcers, and then well I didn't get them to the severity that I got them with the sulfasalazine [speaker001:] That's [Jonathan:] Er [speaker001:] funny, cos sulfasala I've been s I've certainly been using it for years and years and years with different folk fo er for something completely different. [Jonathan:] Aha. [speaker001:] I mean it didn't come for, come out for... arthritis. [Jonathan:] Arthritis, no. [speaker001:] It came out for something else. And I've used it oh, for about thirty odd years. I never found anybody with any trouble... ever having any trouble with it. And yet when folk got it for their arthritis, okay? [Jonathan:] Yeah There's no trouble with er with the Sulfasalazine [speaker001:] Aye. [Jonathan:] So there should be no problem. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right. [Jonathan:] Renal problems and er I was having bowel problems... ulcers in my mouth. [speaker001:] Mhm. That's right. [Jonathan:] And I was quite amazed. [speaker001:] Eh? Oh aye. [Jonathan:] I was quite amazed. But er if you. [speaker003:] [cough] [sounds like a duck] [Jonathan:] said... you know? [speaker001:] Aye. [Jonathan:] But er... I was away for a week there, I only came back on Saturday. [speaker001:] Good, good [Jonathan:] Er [speaker001:] did you get to? [Jonathan:] I was away up er Nunkton Kildray it's between Invergordon and Paine [speaker001:] It's not my part of the world at all, [Jonathan:] It's beautiful [speaker001:] don't know it, I don't [LAUGHTER] know it [], is it? Oh. Oh, right. Right aye. Oh [Jonathan:] [LAUGHTER] So my w Jessie and I had a wee break. [speaker001:] Peace and quiet? [Jonathan:] Aye,we we've been having a lot of trouble with the people next door, and er [speaker001:] Mhm. [Jonathan:] it, it's really quite amazing. [speaker001:] Oh [unimpressed noise]. I can believe it. Erm trouble with neighbours is [Jonathan:] Well it's [speaker001:] not unusual in. [Jonathan:] I hardly think that I'm able to run about banging doors at four o'clock in the morning.... It's I'm up a [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I haven't seen you too often []. [LAUGHTER] [Jonathan:] I'm up against the six footer, and a five foot ten wife [speaker001:] Aha. [Jonathan:] er... and you know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jonathan:] having a that's what it's. [speaker001:] That's right, that's right. [Jonathan:] Thanks. [speaker001:] Okay., Jon. Right. [Jonathan:] Bye.

[speaker001:] Come in. [speaker002:] Doctor, can you change my?... [speaker001:] There you go, thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you very much. [speaker001:] ... [cough] [Jean:] Dr because for all that, she says well I don't know what'll happen. I says well you'll need to cancel it because they send an appointment to that person. We will be charged for it, even if they don't attend. [speaker001:] That's right, that's what I thought. [Jean:] So I've asked her just to phone... cancel it out, and that should just be the end of it. [speaker001:] And that's, that's it, okay. Right, that's great Jean, thanks.... [John:] Good morning. [speaker001:] Good morning. Well young sir what can we do for you today? [John:] I was going get an employed Doctor. Er thought I might ask you while I'm here about [speaker001:] Ah. [John:] how my blood tests went and er [speaker001:] Blood tests. Er [John:] labs have got it. Erm I'm attending this Doctor, I go back at the end of the.... [speaker001:] Blood tests seem to have been alright, yeah, [John:] Oh aye. [speaker001:] Good, that's good John. Yeah. [John:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Er now... he wants you to stay on your tablets [John:] Aye. [speaker001:] just the same as before. [John:] Aye well, while I'm here could I get another supply because [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] actually... I, the dose that I had to take, I cut them down to see how it would go but, I must admit, I suffered from it Doctor, [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] it didn't do me any good, you know.... U we went [speaker001:] That's right, that's right.... And the other thing was the Brekanil [John:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Brekanil was the other thing he wanted you to have. It's the inhaler. The puffer thing. [John:] Oh I, oh I see. Fair eno oh well. Aye.... [speaker001:] [whispering] There we are []. [John:] And I cannae, cannae sleep lying down horizontally, I've got to kind of you know kind of [speaker001:] Right. Propped up a bit. [John:] propped up. Doctor, you know.... [speaker001:] Now that's, that's that [John:] Anything [speaker001:] let you get a wee bit of a sleep.... Just if you take this just about an hour before er bedtime. [John:] Oh is this something? [speaker001:] Just something to let you get over into a nice... easy sleep, John. [John:] Right Doctor, fair enough. [speaker001:] Save you getting any wheezing during the night.... There we are John, that'll keep things right. Er [John:] Thank you Doctor [speaker001:] erm are you due an insurance line today? [John:] Yes, I am Doctor. Er if you actually date it from yesterday? [speaker001:] Mhm sure, [John:] Is that possible as well? [speaker001:] sure. [John:] It being the holiday. [speaker001:] Aye.... [John:] Er chesty in the morning then, bit chesty at night you know? [speaker001:] That's right, it's... that's it. There you are young John. Right. [John:] thanks very much. [speaker001:] Okay John. Cheerio now. [John:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] [cough]... [speaker003:] Oh. [Flora:] You can ask him if it's alright to keep you in your tablets. I'm going to start. I tell you when I was in here it was just keeping calm. And I'd no been to bloody. [John:] Aye well... Nothing Doctor can do, [Flora:] I know but he. [John:] He would need to go up and see. Doctor [speaker003:] Ah. [speaker001:] What's up with young John today? [John:] Oh my Strathclyde Hospital on Wednesday, [speaker001:] Aha. [John:] and they er sort of X-rayed me, took a urine sample, took a blood sample, er Doctor [speaker001:] Aha. [John:] He examined me. Erm he f he found, know how they were wrong about a slight murmur on my heart? [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] He couldn't find it. He says it could have been anxiety [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] or hospital [speaker001:] Aye just [John:] So there was nothing really [speaker001:] nothing to worry about. Good. I'm delighted to hear that. [John:] But he did say that er it'll take three weeks before he can get back to me about sending me to the Law [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] He says that, see the biopsy and the other? [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] He says that I might not need to get it right? Because he, he'll be able to tell off my blood. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] So he, he's still to decide about that. [speaker001:] Yeah. Right. [John:] Aye, and he also agreed with you about the lump in my back. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] Right? [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] And he s he said the same as you, that er [speaker001:] If it's not bothering you, leave it alone. [John:] Aye. [LAUGHTER] Said the exact same as you. [speaker001:] Oh aye. Och aye. It's not, not sensible. Now then.... Here you are young John. [John:] [cough] Honestly, I'm gutted with this cold the noo, could you give me [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah, [John:] something for it? [speaker001:] sure.... How're you doing with the, the drink? [John:] Oh. I have my good days and bad days. [speaker001:] How many good ones and how bad ones? [Flora:] during the day. [John:] Too many bad ones.... I just cannae seem to get off it at all.... [speaker001:] Well, keep it down as low as you can because the lower you keep it, the less chance there is of getting this biopsy done.... [John:] I thought they were just going to X-ray me back, but they X-rayed everything. [speaker001:] Oh they would do. [John:] They done the lot, [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] front, back, side. [speaker001:] Yeah. Oh aye.... There you are John, And [John:] Right. [speaker001:] that'll get you rid of that. [Flora:] Doctor [John:] Aye, we're really worried about him now. [Flora:] He's getting worse. [speaker001:] Aye. [Flora:] I mean see last night, we went to bed last night, he came in at noon didn't he? I'm moving out. I'm moving out, I'm going to go stay at me granny's. I cannae stick my dad. I'm just, I'm just moving out and er I just cannae cope any more. They're [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] everybody's talking about me. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] I mean I, see the tablets you gave him? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] I've got them. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] I'm actually scared. [John:] He's threatened, just a couple of times to take an overdose. [Flora:] I'm scared to too [speaker001:] Mhm. Right. [Flora:] too many at the one you know what I mean? [John:] He's seeing Doctor and [Flora:] I was wondering if you'd heard anything from Doctor? [John:] Doctor what, if that happens Doctor says that the next time he wants to see us along with him. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah yeah. [John:] Because he's worrying us. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Flora:] See I don't know if it's just part real... or if he's just trying to frighten me. [speaker001:] Mhm. It could be. This i this is the thing, with youngsters like that, you never know. [Flora:] I mean he doesn't want for nothing, he gets as much as I can give him. [speaker001:] It's nothing it's nothing to do [Flora:] He's got, he's got everything he could want. [speaker001:] Aye, it's nothing to do with wanting. [Flora:] I mean see my see my next door neighbours, they're good [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] neighbours aren't they? [John:] We don't even take any money off him for keep [speaker001:] Aye. [John:] or anything like that. [Flora:] And he came in [John:] let him keep everything. [Flora:] he's sitting he's sitting in the living room on Sunday night. Now these new wheely-bins, you take a turn each. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] I'll just take the two, and Billy'll take them out the next week. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] But on Sunday night we weren't in, and Billy looked in the kitchen. [John:] We were at a night out. [Flora:] He must have looked in the kitchen window. Just to see [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] whether to take the bins out or not. But our John was sitting reading the paper. He's got a, they're all talking about me, he says they're listening at the walls or standing in the clossies [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] I mean the things he's coming away with aren't real. [speaker001:] Aye. Why is he seeing Doctor? [John:] He's. [Flora:] He's gonna see him again, don't get me wrong, Doctor said he'll send for the both of us, right? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] But he's getting to the point where I'm ready for saying to him away you go down to your granny's right, but my mam cannae live with him either. [speaker001:] No no. [Flora:] Cos she's the same way. She's phoning me. She [John:] I think Doctor only sits once a month, and [speaker001:] Oh no. No. [Flora:] No. [speaker001:] Every week. [John:] Is it every week? Is it? [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] I thought it was only once a month. [speaker001:] No. [Flora:] See when he's thing, you see when he's er down at his granny's, my mummy and my daddy are actually talking round about him trying to kid on that they're, they're ignoring him. [John:] They they try to ignore him. [Flora:] Know what I mean? [speaker001:] Mm. Right. I'll get on to him and we'll soon get this. [Flora:] See I cannae walk by a bus stop. There're two people at a bus stop, they two people's talking about him. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Flora:] The night that they brought him up here.... A man walked in and he says hello to John and that and how's it going and that, he came into see you and I sat, I mean I came in [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] out of the road, what's that man saying about me? Aye I heard him saying how do you put up with an arsehole like that? [John:] Thinks, he's paranoid. He thinks everybody's talking about him. [speaker001:] Aye. [John:] You know what I mean? [Flora:] But this has just come on. [speaker001:] Mhm. Oh aye. This is how it comes. This is how it comes, just [Flora:] And I mean... I'm not wanting to make up any. Ah but Doctor, it's plain to you, John's [John:] It may be the best thing for him. [Flora:] John has been... put under psychologist because he was slow at school right? [speaker001:] Aha. Aye. [Flora:] And this is the start. This is what's in his head.... He's no equal with anybody else. Yet [speaker001:] Ah. [Flora:] he is cos we paid dear. [speaker001:] Yes yes yes. But this is the thing, if he doesn't go there, if he needs to go there and he doesn't go there, he's going to get worse. [John:] Aye. [Flora:] Aye. [speaker001:] I mean he's going to get worse and worse and worse. [Flora:] See, the way I feel I've, it's not a case [John:] She even thinks [Flora:] I know there was [John:] see because he w he was slow, he had trouble with learning [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] at school, right? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] See he [John:] S he thinks that all the ones that were at school with him are s talking [speaker001:] about him. Mhm. That's right [John:] Still yet. [speaker001:] that's what he said, the first night he came in. [John:] Aye. [speaker001:] The f the thing is if he needs to go in for treatment, he's only going to get worse if he doesn't get it. [Flora:] But he'll say to me [John:] I said that and all. [Flora:] But as I, like you know John when he talks about it. If they found out I'm up there like I'm just going to stay up there, I'm never mind to come back here. [John:] Do you know, she went to the bingo yesterday her mother, right? For that day out at the bingo with her mam. And er he roa er he ranted for three hours too. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] Kept repeating himself and, right? [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] And I'm sitting watching the telly trying to watch a film. [Flora:] Tell him what happened with the police the police a fortnight ago. [John:] I had to send for the police. [speaker001:] Mm. [Flora:] Because he didn't [John:] I thought he was I thought he was going to do something to himself. [Flora:] Or smash up the house or something. [John:] See he smashed up the house on Christmas day. [speaker001:] Aha. [Flora:] But he never [John:] For no reason at all, [speaker001:] Aye. [John:] right. Er then he, he, I sent for the police because he walked out the door and he, he threatened to kill himself. I had to get the police to get him back. [Flora:] See and I don't know whether he's tormenting us, or whether he's [speaker001:] Oh, you never know. You cannae take the chance. [Flora:] And I've got every tablet. Even his. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] I've got of them all. [speaker001:] You can't, I mean there's, there's no way you can take a chance on it, Flora. I mean if he's just [John:] I mean he's, he's the only kid we've got, and he's been [speaker001:] Aye. [John:] spoilt, you know what I mean? It's no as if we've [speaker001:] Doesn't, doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter what age they are. I mean, we've had them doing this at eight year old. [John:] Aye. [speaker001:] And I've seen them doing this right up till they're in their eighties. [Flora:] Do you think if I, do you think if I gave him a fright,s see the, time he says he's going off to his granny's and I say away you go, and my mam says she's not taking him. [speaker001:] Would you would you like to take the chance? [John:] No. I wouldn't either. [Flora:] I know he's starting all these things, see his computers and that? S maybe if I says to him away you go to your granny's and then and you're not taking anything with you.... No? [speaker001:] No. It's not worth the risk Flora. If he did anything [Flora:] Well that night he walked out I was wasn't I? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Flora:] And he must have been, I've a feeling he was standing somewhere bloody well [John:] Watching you. Aye. [Flora:] watching me. [speaker001:] Yeah. Oh aye. I mean,i if he, if you said something like that to him and he went away and he didn't turn up for two or three days, you would never live with yourself. [Flora:] Maybe that [John:] Exactly. [speaker001:] Oh no. No no. Ju hold on. Leave it with me. I'll get in touch with Doctor. Hope we'll get it organized as quick as we can. [John:] Right, thanks Doctor. [speaker001:] Okay? Right. [Flora:] Right, thanks Doctor. [speaker001:] Okay, right Flora. [John:] Right. [speaker001:] Don't do anything [Flora:] I wouldn't. [John:] Aye. [speaker001:] o okay. [Flora:] Right then. [speaker001:] Right. Right, cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Good morning Thomas. Well now [Thomas:] aye. [speaker001:] what can we do for you today?... Thank you. What can we do for you today, Tom? [Thomas:] Ah... she's not getting out of bed at all. [speaker001:] She's not? [Thomas:] No. She's not. [speaker001:] Aye.... Well we'll get the specialist to go in and see her and see what he makes of her, see if he can get her back on her feet.... She still in bed all the time? [Thomas:] Aye. Aye.... [speaker001:] What about her leg? How's it doing? [Thomas:] It's not doing very good. [speaker001:] Is it not? [Thomas:] No.... No it is not.... She that er that cream, and I couldn't doing it any good. [speaker001:] Is it not? [Thomas:] No. No.... [speaker001:] Right.... Oh I'll get that sorted out for you. No problem. [Thomas:] Mm. [speaker001:] And what about yourself Thomas, how are you doing? [Thomas:] Och. Up and down. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Good days and bad days. [Thomas:] Aye. Up and down. Er... I wanted... some tablets Doctor. [speaker001:] Some tablets? [Thomas:] Aye. Chest trouble, you know. [speaker001:] Right.... And your... your stomach. Bottle, are you needing some more of that Tom? [Thomas:] Aye aye aye aye er.... [speaker001:] And your Paraven [Thomas:] Parav plenty of Paraven [speaker001:] Plenty of them Tom? [Thomas:] Aye. [speaker001:] What about the Cimetidine [Thomas:] Aye, I need them. [speaker001:] You need some of them? [Thomas:] Aye..... [speaker001:] Now what about Alice, is she needing? [Thomas:] Aye er... er Lus Lustril [speaker001:] Need some of the Lustorol [Thomas:] Lustorol... Bolterol er [speaker001:] And Bolterol [Thomas:] ... Er Ni Nikram,Ni Nikram tablets. Nikram [speaker001:] Nikram [Thomas:] Nikram tablets. [speaker001:] What's she taking that for Tom? [Thomas:] Inflammation.... [speaker001:] She's only supposed to take that for a week at a time Tom. [Thomas:] Er is she? [speaker001:] Aye. That's dangerous stuff that. [Thomas:] Is it? [speaker001:] Aye. If she takes that for more than seven days it can poison her system. [Thomas:] Oh aye. [speaker001:] So le leave it off just now, [Thomas:] Aye. [speaker001:] is she still getting trouble with the inflammation? [Thomas:] Aye, aye, [speaker001:] Is she? [Thomas:] aye. [speaker001:] Right.... Well Nikram was fine thirty years ago, but it, it's too dangerous now. [Thomas:] Ah, ah, ah. [speaker001:] Cos er it was alright [Thomas:] Ah. [speaker001:] way back in the old days but... Now then, [Thomas:] Er some Stella Stelladine [speaker001:] Some Stellazine [Thomas:] Stellazine aye.... [speaker001:] And [Thomas:] Norvex? Nordex [speaker001:] Sorry, Norvex [Thomas:] Norvex aye.... [speaker001:] No. Don't know that one. [Thomas:] Mm. [speaker001:] Wh what's that one for Tom? [Thomas:] Er... what was that one for?... tablets and then capsules.... [speaker001:] Oh right, right. Capsules. Right. [Thomas:] ... Nor it's er Nor Normax, Normax tablets. [speaker001:] Normax That's right. That's right. Right. Erm aye. That's right. That's the one, [Thomas:] Aye. [speaker001:] that's the one. [Thomas:] Normax... [speaker001:] That's that.... And... there we are young Thomas. Th keep that going for a wee while again. [Thomas:] Aye.... [speaker001:] See if we can get her ready for the dancing. [Thomas:] Mhm. Mhm.... Er she, she brought up er a, a black it was all, all black. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Thomas:] All black. [speaker001:] Aye. [Thomas:] And er... she was gonna er... erm. [speaker001:] Mm. [Thomas:] The black mass she up. [speaker001:] That's right. That's, that's the Voltarol probably doing that to her. [Thomas:] Voltarol [speaker001:] Aye. That'll be the Voltarol doing that to her. [Thomas:] Aye. Aye. [speaker001:] She'll need to watch she doesn't take too many of them. [Thomas:] Mm. [speaker001:] Cos they must be a wee bit too strong. [Thomas:] Ah, aye, aye. [speaker001:] So keep her... three a day. No more than three a day and if [Thomas:] Three a day. Aye. Aye. [speaker001:] you can keep her down at two, so much the better. [Thomas:] Ah, aye. [speaker001:] But tell her she'll need to watch because that's the Voltarol [Thomas:] Mm. [speaker001:] beginning to react [Thomas:] Aye. And the other ones too? [speaker001:] choke her. [Thomas:] the other ones. The er that erm... what do you call it... erm when you very dangerous. I've been telling her about that and all. [speaker001:] Aye, tell her about that one as well. [Thomas:] Aye. Aye. [speaker001:] Aye, that, it'd be the Voltarol that would give her the, the black stuff coming through. [Thomas:] Black stuff, aye. Coming through, aye, aye. [speaker001:] That would do that. But the Negram er it can put her blood right away down. [Thomas:] Oh. [speaker001:] Within, within two or three days. [Thomas:] Mm. [speaker001:] If she takes too much. [Thomas:] Too many? [speaker001:] Aye. So tell her or else. [Thomas:] Aye, yeah. [speaker001:] Or else [mimicking ferocity] [Thomas:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] she'll get a punch. And er... what's er what's wrong with her leg at all, is it inflammation did she say? [Thomas:] Aha, yeah. Inflammation in the ligaments in there. [speaker001:] aye, aye. We'll get it cut off and put in the bin, that's what they'll do with it. [Thomas:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Don't tell her I said that. Don't tell her I said that or she'll be up... fighting me []. [Thomas:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er what else er n you got [Thomas:] Er [speaker001:] everything for yourself? [Thomas:] I've, I've got everything, aye. [speaker001:] You've got everything? [Thomas:] Aye. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right. Right Tom []. [Thomas:] Alright. [speaker001:] Okay now, go easy, and we'll get that, we'll get something sorted out for her. [Thomas:] Aye. Aye. [speaker001:] We'll let you know. Okay? [Thomas:] Okay, right. [speaker001:] Right Tom. [Thomas:] Right you are. [speaker001:] Okay. Right, [Thomas:] Cheerio. [speaker001:] cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Good morning. [Charlie:] Er, it's an insurance. [speaker001:] .... [Charlie:] Updated for yesterday. [speaker001:] [whispering] twelfth []... [Charlie:] Can you give us a prescription for these? [speaker001:] Just some more of those? Aye, sure. That's that covered. That.... Twenty second [whispering] [] [Charlie:] Twenty sixth I've got an interview.... [speaker001:] Are these helping? [Charlie:] Aye. [speaker001:] Good.... [Charlie:] Aye, I think I've a wee touch of the flu. [speaker001:] You must be the only one [Charlie:] Is it back? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh aye. [Charlie:] Aye? [speaker001:] Oh, it's never been away. [Charlie:] Oh, I feel terrible this morning. [speaker001:] Never been away, it's been... the last month [Charlie:] Oh I never caught it, right enough, but I feel as if I've caught it now. [speaker001:] [whispering] Well let's see if [] we can get things quietened down for your life. Have it easy. In the past month in here, well, it's been like that every day. Been like that every day, there's never been a, a quiet day.... There we are Charlie, that'll keep that right for you. [Charlie:] Okay, thanks. [speaker001:] Okay, right. Cheerio now. [Charlie:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] Hello. Well [Cathy:] Hello. [speaker001:] monster? [Gary:] Aha. [speaker001:] What've I to do to you today? [Cathy:] No, it's not him, it's me Doctor. [speaker001:] Is it mum? [speaker004:] Mum. [speaker001:] What'd you do to your mum? [Cathy:] mum for a while. [speaker001:] Were you bad to her? Were you bad to your mum?... What can I do for you? [Cathy:] My bust again Doctor. I'm having terrible pains in my chest.... It's only the, the right one, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] that I have any pains in. Now I keep taking this Shelabruse it clears, and it comes back. You know how sometimes you get a lot of vein running down [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] your bust? Well it's sinking in, it, it goes into your grove. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] But it's still the same, but it's the pains that I got the last time that's gon it's like sharp pains that's going round about, just the insides of the nipple.... I have put a wee bit of weight on, so I was wondering if it was maybe [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] that. [speaker001:] Mhm. Could be that. [Cathy:] But it's been for about two month now, but it's [speaker001:] For two months? [Cathy:] aha.... [speaker001:] Are you on anything just now [Cathy:] No. [speaker001:] to try and ease the soreness, Cathy? No. [Cathy:] No. It isn't, it's not a pain that's there all the time, Doctor. It just comes. [speaker001:] It just comes. Is it a sharp sort of shooting pain? [Cathy:] Very sharp it's as though something's bursting. You know, something's [speaker001:] Mhm. [Gary:] running, it's like that.... [speaker001:] [whispering] Right. Stop that for you [].... [Cathy:] I had an appointment and I cancelled it, a couple of month ago, because it wasn't too bad. Then I had to get this one. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [whispering] Now then this er [] [Cathy:] I was going to cancel this. [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] Better not to. Better not to. [Cathy:] Er my mother's waiting to come in, so I was going to give her it.... [speaker001:] Will we give your mum nice medicine or rotten medicine?... [Cathy:] Oh he's not really sort of speaking to me. [speaker001:] Is he in a bad mood? [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] Aye []. [speaker001:] In a bad mood this morning? Are you? [Cathy:] Wee boy playing with the toys out there and they told him to shut up.... [speaker001:] Is your gran out there? [Cathy:] His gran's out there. [speaker001:] Is she? [Cathy:] No well. [speaker001:] What've you been doing to your gran? Were you bad to your gran?... There we are.... [Cathy:] What is this Doctor? [speaker001:] Will you take that for your mum? That's a boy. Two things Cathy. I've given you something to try and take the swelling off your chest, and that should ease a bit of the pain but I've also given you er stuff to stop all this bursting [Cathy:] Mhm. [speaker001:] on the inside. So now, I want you to use that for a full month, and come back up, and let us know how things are doing. [Cathy:] Will do. [speaker001:] . That should give you a good help with that. [Cathy:] Just too heavy busted, I think that's what's. [speaker001:] No no no no no no no, it's nothing to do with that, I wish it was as simple as that. [Cathy:] Right. [speaker001:] Wish it was as simple as that. [Cathy:] Okay Doctor, [speaker001:] Right Gary? [Cathy:] thank you. [speaker001:] Right, cheerio now. Cheerio Cathy.

[speaker001:] Come in. Hello. Well, what can I do for this wife today? [speaker002:] Aye. Well. I'm a lot better than the last time you saw me. [speaker001:] Feeling better, that's [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] good.... Are you... your pain disappeared? [speaker002:] It was er blood pressure. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It was for my blood pressure. [speaker001:] pain round the side that's all disappeared as well? [speaker002:] No, it's not really, it's er it comes and goes, but it's not as bad as it was. [speaker001:] Easing off? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Right. Come on then, show us your muscles. [speaker002:] I only had a few wee tablets that... pump the vein [speaker001:] Is that right? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] I got up to go to the toilet but they er must have been too quick for me,. [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] given them []... often do that.... Now, stretch your arm out up. Here we go. This is a, that's feeling quite good.... [pumping sound] A hundred and sixty. That's good.... A hundred and sixty over ninety. Doing fine. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You said it []. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You said it []. that place out there. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] That'll be better next week [LAUGHTER] when you as well. But his back is alright now? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] But er no, I would just keep on exactly the way you're doing, I wouldn't change anything at all.... Don't change anything at all. Er what about your, your stomach bottle, now, are you needing? [speaker002:] Oh, that Gaviscone aye I take that sometimes cos [speaker001:] Aye.... [speaker002:] there's a wee bairn been in the, in the, in the, my daughter was staying in, and I had the other two. [speaker001:] Aha. That's all you need. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] That's all you need when you've got high blood, high blood pressure, is two youngsters. Two youngsters in the house is [speaker002:] Two battling, two battling youngsters. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I don't think two youngsters ever get together without a battle. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Don't think. There we are, that'll see that right, we'll see you in about a couple of months again, Mrs. [speaker002:] Okay then. [speaker001:] Okay, right, [speaker002:] Cheerio. [speaker001:] Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Doctor, we're now, Doctor, we now have no appointments for the rest of the week.... Would you maybe do a surgery on Thursday morning? [speaker002:] Oh aye, aye, sure. [speaker001:] Instead of going out with. Would be a, be quite a few calls, but we'll just maybe have to try and I don't know what we'll do. [speaker002:] to clear the surgery. [speaker001:] Whether we'll have to take them off Thursday now, put them forward to Wednesday. There's o a couple of erm p poor blood counts, but Alan reckons they don't need done.... So [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] you know [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] just put it in for Thursday morning, see what [speaker002:] Yeah, sure. Aye. Aye. More work for Thursday, yes, no problem. [speaker001:] [talk distant] Right thank you Doctor... [speaker002:] Good morning. [speaker003:] Morning Doctor. [speaker002:] Now then. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Busy place this morning [speaker002:] Och yes. Oh yes. Keeps us out of mischief. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Keeps us out of mischief. what can I do for you? [speaker003:] My due in today, Doctor.... Lot of kids in this morning.... Is there a lot of wee bugs? [speaker002:] School. The school holidays. [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] It's always, always the same. [speaker003:] Lot of wee bugs going about? [speaker002:] Yeah.... [speaker003:] I'll get my prescription when I'm here too Doctor. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] I've cut myself, know how I was twenty? And I've cut myself down to one. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] And my Tamacipan [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Well, Bill's er got that patch he was trying to stop smoking and he wasn't sleeping at night, you know. So I gave him half of mine, half of it, you know how it's a tablet now? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] I've been giving him half of it. And he's [speaker002:] I'll give him I'll give him something to get a good sleep. [speaker003:] Aye, he, I mean he's been doing quite well, cos that's George usually smoked you know? And [speaker002:] The patches are great. [speaker003:] Aye. He only bought three weeks. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Then he bought the chewing gum. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Mm. It was my wee, my wee granddaughter that got through to him. I mean he wouldn't listen to anybody else, and she said one day, papa you er you give me a cough with that smoking. He's the only one in the family that smokes. And it gets in your hair and it gets in your clothes, she must have been listening to the television. [speaker002:] Yeah. Oh aye. [speaker003:] So it was him who sh I think it got, how it got through to him. [speaker002:] [whispering] Oh yeah []. I was just, I was hearing the other day that somebody had smoked sixty a day [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] and didn't make any difference... until her best friend went into hospital for a heart operation. [speaker003:] And that. [speaker002:] Stopped it. [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] Stopped it dead.... [speaker003:] It's great what can just move you, isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes, oh aye, it's [speaker003:] Oh I had an awful last couple of days. See those very wet days last week? I would be sitting then I get up and this pain would come through me ankle, right into this p remember I fell down the stairs, and this always was the weak bit? It goes right into there, and I was staggering all day, you know when I would get up? So obviously she doesn't. I just take a couple of paracetamol. [speaker002:] Ah that's, yes that's right. And just keep going. [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] And just keep going. [speaker003:] Keep going. [speaker002:] There we are. [speaker003:] when you're it's not so bad sat down. [speaker002:] It's not so bad. That's right. When you sit down for a wee while. [speaker003:] And you go to up [speaker002:] And you [speaker003:] Doctor [speaker002:] I know the feeling. I know the feeling only too well. [speaker003:] Can I just get my Tryptophan [speaker002:] Oh oh you need some Tryptophan as well? [speaker003:] Aye, and the Carisamol [speaker002:] Excuse me. [phonecall starts] [telephone conversation ends] Eh. [speaker003:] Tryptophan Doctor. [speaker002:] There we are now. [speaker003:] Good have you given me something for the? [speaker002:] Yes, aye. Put it put it on there. And that'll keep him right, [speaker003:] Oh well. [speaker002:] keep him out of mischief. [speaker003:] Er he doesn't pay for his, he's a pensioner now. I'll send away [speaker002:] Is he? [speaker003:] for my, I've go I've got my... I send away my thing. [speaker002:] Aye, aye I sh I would hope so. [speaker003:] It's due to go. It's due to go again. In fact [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker003:] I'll do it today. [speaker002:] Yeah, put that in today. [speaker003:] And I'll not put that prescription in till [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] that's fine. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Away and look after him. [speaker003:] Thanks very much. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Cheerio now. [speaker003:] Bye bye.

[speaker001:] Morning Mrs. [Agnes:] Good morning Doctor. [speaker001:] Well now, what can I do for you today?... [Agnes:] I've been coming for sh three weeks now.... And I came to ask the doctor if I could get H R T. And she took my blood pressure and it was too high [speaker001:] She chased you. [Agnes:] so she didn't give me anything the first time, but she [speaker001:] Mhm. The second time. [Agnes:] The second time, it was a different doctor again, and she gave me tablets and I can't remember the name. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] It was I just took the last one on Saturday, and I then threw the [speaker001:] Aye. The wee white ones, [Agnes:] Aye. [speaker001:] Right. [Agnes:] Brusc something [speaker001:] Aye. [Agnes:] So [speaker001:] Right. Show us your muscles. Let's see what you're doing to your poor old self. [Agnes:] I don't know why I think maybe the, the tablets helped, but erm I was saying I was kind of having second thoughts whether I was wanting to go on the H R T or [speaker001:] No. [Agnes:] No. [speaker001:] No chance. No chance. Not, not with your blood pressure up like that. [Agnes:] No er well she didn't say much, but she [speaker001:] Well, no chance I can tell you now. [Agnes:] Whenever er [speaker001:] Just get yourself down. [Agnes:] And I thought er and er I had wee tablets that you gave me a while ago, Brusdeximit [speaker001:] Mhm. [Agnes:] And I was wondering maybe if I'd be better going back on them. [speaker001:] Aye, you'd be safer a lot safer on them. And they won't er they won't fight with your blood pressure. Here just let your arm. [Agnes:] On second thought, it'd be. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Aye.... It's, it's amazing how many folk come up to see about it, and they, they decide eventually not to.... Doing fine. You're fine but you'll need to stay on your wee tablets... I'm afraid. And er I think you can forget the H R T. [Agnes:] I will, I felt maybe er when I came up to see, oh I was having all these heavy sweatings. Just was it was really [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Agnes:] pain up sore back, so. [LAUGHTER] And [speaker001:] Falling to bits. to bits. [Agnes:] then I had another I had another wee problem that I'd been, I had been to see, and it was Doctor I had been, and the doctor that I saw the last time er I had three big bruises on my back, and she [speaker001:] Mhm. [Agnes:] says I don't know what this is. But this was a wee sort of lump that I had down at the bottom of my vagina. [speaker001:] Right. [Agnes:] I don't know whether you would call it a lump or not, I said to her it was like a wee spot. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Agnes:] So she, she says well I don't know what that is, she says. So I'll send you to the hospital. So I've to go on [speaker001:] Yeah. [Agnes:] Friday to see [speaker001:] Right. [Agnes:] Doctor. [speaker001:] Right. Now... have you got plenty of the wee tablets or are you finished? [Agnes:] No, I finished 'em. [speaker001:] Finished all that lot. Right, Agnes. [Agnes:] Finished them on Saturday. Mm That's how I was, I was saying had been at the hospital, come back and says no, my [speaker001:] No. [Agnes:] tablets are finished, I'd better go to the doc [speaker001:] No, you'd better. You need to get that, need to keep that down because if you do go to the hospital, and they did decide to take that out, they would ne d they would check your blood pressure and they would chase you. There's no way they would touch it at all. [whispering] So [] [Agnes:] It's no, I don't really know cos the doctor says she didn't know what it was either. Doctor seen it first, she thought I had pulled a hair and it was kind of septic [speaker001:] Septic Aye. [Agnes:] and she gave me tablets, [speaker001:] Aye, that leaves [Agnes:] antibiotics. [speaker001:] leaves a wee cyst underneath the skin.... [Agnes:] Is that what it would [speaker001:] Mhm. [Agnes:] be then? [speaker001:] Yeah, that's probably what it is. [Agnes:] It it's no really er giving me any [speaker001:] No. Just, no. [Agnes:] much trouble or anything, but it was just the fact of it being there. [speaker001:] It's there. It's there. And it's always a worry when you don't know what's going on. And the trouble is it can turn septic again, and put the whole thing sky high again. But s what about your Dixevit Are you needing any more of them? [Agnes:] I haven't got them. I've no I haven't [speaker001:] Nothing? [Agnes:] been taking them [speaker001:] Oh well. [Agnes:] for ages and ages. [speaker001:] Keep some in the house in case you do get a bad spell. Because they're s they're safe. [Agnes:] Would it no be similar to kept taking Dixevit instead of the other ones Doctor? [speaker001:] No. [Agnes:] No? [speaker001:] No, they wouldn't affect your [Agnes:] Wouldn't do anything [speaker001:] wouldn't affect your pressure. [Agnes:] No. [speaker001:] They wouldn't affect your pressure. They're very they're good and they have very few side effects, this is the beauty [Agnes:] Aha. [speaker001:] of the Dixevit they keep the flushings down, [Agnes:] Aye. [speaker001:] and they don't affect your blood pressure. [Agnes:] Aye. [speaker001:] So, stick with them, if, if you're having a bad time, use them. If you don't... leave them be. Leave them be. But keep on your wee white ones every morning, Agnes. One at breakfast time, [Agnes:] Aye, er I [speaker001:] er [Agnes:] oh well I took them, took them regular, because [speaker001:] Aha. [Agnes:] you gave me only thirty, [speaker001:] Yes. [Agnes:] and that was enough. [speaker001:] That's right. [Agnes:] So [speaker001:] Well, we'll see you in a couple of months again. [Agnes:] Er will I have enough to keep me going,? [speaker001:] Er yeah. You'll have enough to keep you going for a couple of months. [Agnes:] Could I get some...?... [speaker001:] There we are now. [Agnes:] See how the boy takes... Zantac Doctor, is there two strength of Zantac [speaker001:] Mhm. [Agnes:] And he's [speaker001:] Yeah. [Agnes:] getting the lesser one do you think? Would it be advisable for him to get the... higher one? [speaker001:] Er [Agnes:] He's [speaker001:] with the, with the bigger strength you only take one, they only allow you one a day. [Agnes:] Mhm. He doesn't really, I think at the moment he takes one and er he doesn't sort of take them like [speaker001:] Mhm. [Agnes:] constantly or er when he gets the heartburn [speaker001:] Er that's [Agnes:] sort of thing [speaker001:] that's [Agnes:] he takes [speaker001:] Aye this is... this is the very strong one. [Agnes:] Just. [speaker001:] Aye, just one of these a day. When he needs them.... [Agnes:] I was going to put the thing in there, but I thought I would ask first before... you know. [speaker001:] He's still living with you at? [Agnes:] Aha. [speaker001:] Hasn't run away and got married or anything? [Agnes:] No, not till the sixteenth of July. And he's not running away he's getting. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Same thing. [Agnes:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Same thing.... peace and quiet, [Agnes:] What about your own family? You still got them? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Agnes:] Oh well. [speaker001:] Yeah, they're still... [Agnes:] Still keeping you [speaker001:] still keeping me out of mischief. [Agnes:] Still keeping [speaker001:] Still keeping me out of mischief. [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] Are they keeping you out of mischief? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Ah well []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh aye. Oh aye. [LAUGHTER] Okay Agnes []. [Agnes:] okay, [speaker001:] Right, [Agnes:] thanks very much, Doctor. [speaker001:] cheerio now. [Agnes:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] In you come. Oh. That's better. [baby cries] Here. Here. Come here. [speaker002:] Who's, who's making all the noise? Is it you? You shouting? [speaker001:] There you are. [speaker002:] Are you shouting?... Well, what can I do for you today? [speaker001:] Oh. Well is the results of th that X-ray in? I was away getting my hand X-rayed.... [speaker002:] Clear as a bell. [speaker001:] Is it? [speaker002:] Mhm. Yeah. It's a neuralgia kind of thing. [speaker001:] Is it? [speaker002:] Yeah. I'm afraid [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] so. [speaker001:] well, I need another prescription for. [speaker002:] yes. [speaker001:] Doctor see about this hair of mine, it's just not coming back in. [speaker002:] It's not coming back in? [speaker001:] No. And I feel it's getting really really thin. I mean [speaker002:] Is that right? [speaker001:] I have took alopecia before I mean I thought maybe [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] it was because it was the wee one, but that's her [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] fourteen months, so I mean it should be [speaker002:] Oh aye. [speaker001:] showing as wee bit er of improvement. [speaker002:] be alright. Yeah. [speaker001:] But I mean i it's not.... And that bit there's completely bald. To there. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] And this bit here at the top is... kind of starting to go.... [speaker002:] Right. Get you over to the specialist and see what's [speaker001:] And I'm beginning to get a wee bit worried about it, [LAUGHTER] you know []?... [speaker002:] Er now. [speaker001:] But sh er well distalgesics [speaker002:] Are you ne are you ne are you need [cough] are you al you alright? [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] my voice. [cough] Excuse me. You're not needing the pink ones?... [speaker001:] What? [speaker002:] The wee pink [speaker001:] The wee pink ones No I've still got cos I've only taken [speaker002:] diamond shaped ones. Still got some of them? [speaker001:] Is it two a day? [speaker002:] Two a day. That's right. [speaker001:] Aye. Still got some of them. [speaker002:] Still got some of them. Right, and the dist the distalgesic? [speaker001:] [cough] [cough]... [baby cries] [speaker002:] Getting restless?... Are you?... [speaker001:] So where is that I'll go Doctor for my hair? [speaker002:] Er, I can make it [cough] I can make it Monklands, or Strathclyde? [speaker001:] Strathclyde's nearer [speaker002:] Is that handier for you? [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] Oh. Er it's immaterial, I mean it's just a matter of putting a different address on the letter. Aye. [speaker001:] I mean it's just I wouldn't like it to go any [speaker002:] No, oh no. No no. [speaker001:] to go any further. [speaker002:] ta-ta. Ta-ta. [baby noise] [speaker001:] Say bye bye. [speaker002:] No, no, she's desperate to get away. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You're desperate. Right. [speaker001:] Right, thanks Doctor. [speaker002:] Right. Cheerio now. [speaker001:] Cheerio.... This way. This way, look.

[speaker001:] Good morning, good morning. [Jim:] Good morrow. [speaker001:] How are you today? [Jim:] I'm fine. How are you? [speaker001:] I'm alive. Causing trouble. [Jim:] [LAUGHTER] I suppose you're ahead of the game if you're alive. [speaker001:] Yes. That's it. Now then young man, what can we do for you today? [Jim:] Well. [speaker001:] You're alright, check that. [Jim:] You know the young man er... [speaker001:] Yes. Yes.... [speaker003:] [cough]... [Jim:] Trouble? [speaker001:] No problems. [Jim:] Mm? [speaker001:] No problem. [Jim:] No problems, good. [speaker001:] No problem there at all. [Jim:] Good.... [speaker001:] And how're yo how've you been doing? [Jim:] Er, I'm er... the last er f five days or so, I've been getting up less. [speaker001:] Good. [Jim:] Three times. I've been getting up three times. And, and one day I got u up once. So it must be making a difference. [speaker001:] Good. That's great. [Jim:] [cough] [speaker001:] Keep on with it for another [Jim:] Ma maybe, maybe another once or twice er and I'll h have the job done. I hope. It's, I mean it's going anyway, it's working. [speaker001:] It's making a difference to life. [Jim:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Good. Good. [Jim:] Oh it is.... And er I want some pills for circulation, I've only got two left. [speaker001:] Right.... [Jim:] Three a day, they don't last long. [speaker001:] No, you go through them. [Jim:] [cough]... [speaker001:] [whispering] four []... How's May getting on? How's May? [Jim:] Brighter now. She's er having trouble walking now, she's not walking very well. [speaker001:] She not? [Jim:] No. Er and the poor girl can't tell you what's the trouble. [speaker001:] No.... [Jim:] Otherwise she's as cheery as ever. [speaker001:] She's happy as ever? [Jim:] Aye. [speaker001:] Oh that's good. Well that's a good sign. [Jim:] Yeah. [speaker001:] There we are, that'll keep you going for a wee while longer James. [Jim:] Thank you very much. [speaker001:] Right.... Okay, right Jim. We'll see you in [Jim:] Aye, bye bye. [speaker001:] five or six weeks again. [Jim:] Thanks. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Next patient Dr.... [knocking] [speaker002:] Come in, come in. [Katrina:] Morning Doctor. [speaker002:] Good morning. Now what can I do for this lady? [Katrina:] My daughter's Doctor. I didn't really want had a mastectomy. another lump there. [speaker002:] Another lump? [Katrina:] It might only be breast tissue, I don't know that. [speaker002:] Mhm. Let's have a wee look. [Katrina:] And she called him in on Sunday night, I mean I wouldn't have.... No.... [speaker002:] Right. [Katrina:] It's hard. But i it's like where the stitches are you know. [speaker002:] Where where the stitches were, right. [Katrina:] Well, partly where they are.... [speaker002:] Right, er [Katrina:] I just happened to feel it because the wounds haven't been healing Doctor, [speaker002:] Has it not? [Katrina:] using that erm what's the name of the cream? That steroid cream? [speaker002:] Eumobate [Katrina:] Aha. [speaker002:] Right. [Katrina:] Well, I've been to see Mr, and then I was off again to see him, and he said I was right. But he didn't say whether I, I just continued with the cream, but it was the other night I just felt wee. Could be a bit of breast tissue, I don't know.... But it is quite a hard lump.... [speaker002:] Aye, he was quite happy. He couldn't feel anything [Katrina:] No he [speaker002:] to worry about? Mhm. [Katrina:] That's what he said. [speaker002:] Yes. [Katrina:] Here I felt a lump. Yes, [speaker002:] In a different [Katrina:] aye, it's a different bit. It's higher. It's up... he didn't actually examine that part where I think there's a lump.... See after a breast operation does it take a long long time with stitches? [speaker002:] Oh yes. Oh aye. [Katrina:] Aye cos I tried the prosthesis and I tried the, but it just catches, and then er. And it's [speaker002:] Keeps, keeps rubbing against this, this is [Katrina:] so sore. Aye. [speaker002:] That's the worst bit. [Katrina:] That's the worst bit. But [speaker002:] In here. [Katrina:] but that's no where the lump is. [speaker002:] Let's have a wee look at this lump and see what... [Katrina:] Stupid, you're into a state, isn't it? [speaker002:] No, not. Cos [Katrina:] [sniff] [speaker002:] in that bit. See what's going on here.... [Katrina:] Oh right you know what I. [speaker002:] That it? [Katrina:] Oh [speaker002:] I think that's your rib. [Katrina:] My rib? [speaker002:] I think that's your rib. [Katrina:] No [speaker002:] Aha, that's right. Oh yeah. [Katrina:] That my rib? [speaker002:] That feels like a rib. [Katrina:] Oh Jesus. Is it? [speaker002:] Aye. That's your other one, that's the one on top, there's the one underneath. And then there's, the other one's just underneath that, so there. [Katrina:] Oh it's a rib then. [speaker002:] See that, that's your rib. [Katrina:] Aha. It's hard? [speaker002:] Aye, oh it's hard. Very very hard. [Katrina:] Because so was the last lump, hard and then it was like you know? [speaker002:] That's right. That's hard, yeah. Right. That's, that's, that's er the edge of your rib. [Katrina:] [sigh] [speaker002:] I don't think, I don't feel anything else there, Katrina. Now when are you going back to see Mr? [Katrina:] I go back [speaker002:] Right. I'll drop him a wee note, and tell him that you, that you, you know, you can feel this er I'll tell him I've had a look at it, and think it's the rib that's showing through. I'll see what he says. [Katrina:] I've had a lot of bother with a wee bit of red blisters [speaker002:] Aye up the top. That's, that's, that's the stitches. [Katrina:] you know it's a bit of a and it's really sore like. And then as the day goes on, I've got to go and tear this off, cos it gets, these bits get red, [speaker002:] Red red raw. [Katrina:] oh really sore Doctor, you cannae [speaker002:] Right. [Katrina:] Then it comes in like a tingling feeling. Like a, a ne a nettle stinging you you [speaker002:] Right. [Katrina:] know. And it's just [speaker002:] Sounds [Katrina:] the clothes that are doing that. [speaker002:] Aye, it sounds like the stitches right enough. [Katrina:] And does that take a long time?... I mean [speaker002:] Yes. [Katrina:] I thought, I didn't think that it takes as long as that. I mean he did say they were stitches that come out er what [speaker002:] That there, you get, there are some stitches that c [Katrina:] They stay in but he says that [speaker002:] That's right. [Katrina:] in the body. But they don't come out with your, you know your bath. [speaker002:] That's right. They're they're too [Katrina:] They just integrate in the body. [speaker002:] They're too deep underneath the skin. [Katrina:] Aye, he said that. [speaker002:] The way the way [Katrina:] Cos I heard it takes as long. [speaker002:] That's why they take so long.... there's... now [Katrina:] Just keep on with that cream? [speaker002:] U use this stuff instead of that er Eumobate It's [Katrina:] Aha. [speaker002:] slightly stronger. [Katrina:] Aha. [speaker002:] And that might do that, I'll drop Mr a wee note, tell him that you've been in, [Katrina:] Aha. [speaker002:] so that when he sees you the next time, he'll double check that. [Katrina:] Aye. Aha. [speaker002:] But I don't think there's anything [Katrina:] Er [speaker002:] to worry about Katrina. [Katrina:] I hope not. No. [speaker002:] No. [Katrina:] I just, I just felt that it was the cream the other night, and then I just felt oh, you [speaker002:] Mhm. [Katrina:] know b what I've been getting on Friday and Saturday night was an awfully big [speaker002:] Yes. [Katrina:] in my shoulder. [speaker002:] Up, up over the top here. [Katrina:] On the shoulder, more [speaker002:] Yes, that's right. [Katrina:] I've always been getting a shooting pain there that kind of happened and I just [speaker002:] That's right. [Katrina:] thought it was the stitches. [speaker002:] That's, aye, it's, it's everything's beginning to get tight. [Katrina:] Tight now, aye. [speaker002:] This is, this is you starting to feel the sore bits. But er I'll, I'll drop him a wee note anyway. [Katrina:] Aye. Okay. [speaker002:] Right Katrina. [Katrina:] else I feel Doctor I've, [speaker002:] Aye. [Katrina:] got angina, and I've got the like the heart failure. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Katrina:] And I didn't want any breast off, naturally. [speaker002:] No no. [Katrina:] I mean but see the tremendous strain that it's putting on me? [speaker002:] Ah. [Katrina:] You know, I feel that is left, left angina, because I've got to rip the brassiere off at a certain time of the day [speaker002:] Aha. [Katrina:] extra weight. [speaker002:] The extra weight, [Katrina:] you know? I didn't want any off, I think I'd have. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Katrina:] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Right Katrina []. [Katrina:] Cheerio. [speaker002:] Right, okay, cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Well, Cathy what's sister do to you? [Cathy:] Just me back Doctor. I've had an awful weekend, right. I think maybe I've got a chill or something. And I was [speaker001:] Aha. [Cathy:] just in there. [speaker001:] You're a bad woman. You're a bad woman doing that to yourself. [Cathy:] That and constant headaches,.... But I had to get an appointment, I had to get something I [LAUGHTER] I put hot water [] [speaker001:] And it's made no difference, made no difference. Right.... Now what are you on in the way of tablets, Cathy?... Are you still on your Froben [Cathy:] Aye. [speaker001:] Still on the Froben What about the Tylex [Cathy:] I tried the they keep me, now and again with them Doctor, they make [speaker001:] They're not [Cathy:] me awfully sick. [speaker001:] They make you sick? [Cathy:] But I don't tell that doctor. I've told him and he gave that wee white one and it's, I still take the kind of, but I do go on them you know, when I'm really bad. [speaker001:] Aye. [Cathy:] But this pain's down in here, it's [speaker001:] Right. [Cathy:] it's awfully sore.... I, I told them when I was over week, but he just says to keep giving 'em a tr... give 'em a chance. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Aha.... Well don't keep going too long with them if they're doing that to you Cathy cos [Cathy:] No. [speaker001:] nobody thanks you for it. [Cathy:] It's the sickness, it just, you seem to take in every kind of sickness with it. [speaker001:] That's right. [Cathy:] Even with the wee tablet. [speaker001:] Yeah.... [Cathy:] If it really gets bad take them. [speaker001:] Well.... There we are now. I've given you something to kill the pain, Cathy, and I've given you an antibiotic [Cathy:] Aha. [speaker001:] to get the insides cleaned out as well.... [Cathy:] Think maybe it's a chill or something? [speaker001:] Sounds awful like it. [Cathy:] Oh it's awfully sore. [speaker001:] Sounds awful like it. There we are curly, and that'll set you out of mischief for a wee while. [Cathy:] Just for a [speaker001:] Just for a wee while. [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] . Geriatrics. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Coming to bits, coming to bits []. [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right Cathy. [Cathy:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Right, cheerio now. [Cathy:] Cheerio.

[Simon:] I think it actually does end up by saying have a nice day. [John:] Oh oh. [Simon:] Have you changed the disk before you get anything.... [John:] Read the s read the screen. Thank you. I'm very glad you're here. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] I def I definitely should have done this tomorrow night []. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Or th or last night. Last night would have been very nice actually. Right disk number four? [Simon:] Three. Which you might have already had actually, but it did say insert three.... [John:] I had three ready here. Right. And you can it's alright, it'll only ask and say I don't like it, put the proper one in, silly idiot. [Simon:] Probably yeah. [stapling sounds] ... Yeah it's got all these little pop-up utilities. [John:] I don't know what the parents of some of my students are going to think when I'm showing them how to do G C S E maths on the computer instead of the rather. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER]... Er it's, it's not a problem, it just er it shows up in odd little corners of the. Oh one of the things it'll load shortly is er... [John:] files. Ooh. Pretty sounds through the speaker.... I do like that and it is so easy to do and [Simon:] Mm. [John:] it's been proved [Simon:] Well worth it. [John:] time and time again hasn't it? People don't mind waiting if they know [Simon:] the frustration. [John:] how long they're waiting for. [Simon:] Exactly.... Er... yeah you get loads of nice things, you get paintbrush... er calculators, [John:] Card file even. [Simon:] er you get, you get quite a good editor, just comes free with Windows. [John:] Mm. [Simon:] Quite a good word processor. [John:] A word processor? [Simon:] Which is vag it's basically a subset of Word.... Erm [John:] Mm. [Simon:] it, it, it looks a lot nicer than Works and yo it allows you to, obviously it allows you to access Windows fonts, which is a great advantage. [John:] This is the reason I wanted it [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] is to have fonts and then I [Simon:] Yeah. You've got a super font selection. [John:] [whistles through teeth] [Simon:] Erm... [John:] Right. [Simon:] it lacks some capabilities of Microsoft Works. [John:] Mm. [Simon:] I mean obviously what they want you to do is buy Word. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Erm... er for example s [John:] Mm. Trie tried to persuade Sue to ask er them if the they could all change to Word at work. [Simon:] Are they on WordPer WordPerfect at work? [John:] Yeah. And stuck on it for life I think. All the ones, the old secretaries who've been using it for years think it's absolutely wonderful. [Simon:] Mm. I d I, I don't think think it's so bad. I... you know [John:] Mm. [Simon:] it, it, it... it is unconventional in the sense that it doesn't [John:] Yeah. I, I think it's things like I was trying to do Setup last night, I was trying to set... page length, you know paper size, and [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] erm the default font. And they're all on different menus and they're a you're trying all sorts of different keys.... F, F One I don't, I don't, F Three, F One [Simon:] Mm. [John:] [LAUGHTER] F One, F One [] to get your... keys up, your [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] template for your keys and try and find out which one does what. [beeping] [Simon:] Oops! a new disk. [John:] Whoo!... [Simon:] Course there are versions of Windows for the Two Eight Six. [John:] Yes. [Simon:] I wonder if that would be worth getting? Probably not. I think they've probably lost the backward compatibility by now. [John:] Erm they're somewhat cheaper. They weren't very good. [Simon:] No [John:] Erm... [Simon:] huge complaints at the time weren't there? [John:] Cricklewoods I think were selling them about sort of fifteen quid each. Erm I've got a Three Eight Six version. Windows Three Eight Six is no good to you? [Simon:] No. In one of the er tacky comics was selling, I think [John:] Right. [Simon:] it was like Windows One... that was it said the last Windows version that would run on Two Eight Sixes.... You playing with your mouse again? [John:] No I'm just turning the brightness up. [Simon:] Oh.... Oh it's got a passable er database called Cardfile. [John:] Yeah. you know if you were just keeping your [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] records collection on it or something. [Simon:] I was, I, I've always said [John:] Actually it would be ideal for these wouldn't it, for these tapes? [Simon:] Yeah, yeah keep your accounts [John:] Set records for that and just [Simon:] I only got it cos we were going to run this D T P package [John:] Mm. [Simon:] and erm when I, when I installed it I was very pleasantly surprised, at the... basically at the number of useful little applications that they threw in with it. [John:] Mm. I, I think it's, it's great for the price. [Simon:] Oh! I was reading the other day th th you can check this out. There's supposed to be something in here called erm it's an undocumented feature of Windows Three Point One an [John:] or [Simon:] n er n no it's a, it's a, it's a, an er diagnostics utility... [John:] Ah [Simon:] for [John:] yes! [Simon:] er DOS or something called A D M or something like, or D M A or I dunno what [John:] Yeah I read that [Simon:] but it's just hanging about somewhere. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] So I guess you just do a directory of all the executable files and see if there's anything in there... erm but I like diagnostic programs. [John:] Does it set up a lot of directories? [Simon:] Just two I think one within the other. I think it sets up Windows [John:] I like [Simon:] and Windows flash system. [John:] Good. Well that's tidy the way I like [LAUGHTER] it []. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Smart Drive going in, the new Smart Drive... p p presumably it will put my mouse driv my new mouse driver in for me for the day when I want one? [Simon:] Think so. [John:] And then I can ah... well I'll try a... I don't know whether to try a mouse or a MyMouse. I should have had MyMa MyMouse in there and then it would have picked up the MyMo MyMouse driver. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] But presumably I can put a mouse driver in later? [Simon:] Yeah you can just [John:] Yeah [Simon:] get... once your Windows is running it has its own setup menu [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] which you can go to and p [John:] Mm. [Simon:] do things like that. [John:] I've read a bit about sort of erm... there's a special editor for a system file isn't there? [Simon:] Erm I don't know much about that. There's [John:] Th th a [Simon:] th th there's, basically there's an ord it has an ordinary editor which is sub right, it's an ASCII editor that appears in a window and it's for using, for editing the ASCII files. [cough] But I don't know enou much about the system part of Windows.... [beep] [John:] Well this is, this compared to... WordPerfect is an absolute dream [Simon:] I only actually sort of drink want a coffee or something? [John:] Yeah, yes please. there's one of my superstitions you see. [Simon:] What's that? [John:] Erm when I'm doing things like loading things that are close to the operating system I don't turn kettles [LAUGHTER] on [] [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Avoid spikes! [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Oh dear! [John:] I almost turn the fridge off but not quite, no. I think oh well, so what, you know the fridge is going on a lot [Simon:] Mm. [John:] the kettle. [Simon:] Yeah. They got all these stupid fucking suggestions... [reading] now would be a great time to remove the serial number []. Now would be a great time to get off my screen and go back to Microsoft. [John:] ... are they going to ask for this at the end of the installation? [speaker003:] I dunno [Simon:] Hey! [John:] type courier? [Simon:] Oh better ones than that. That's just the beginning. [John:] Bold.... Now this, is this is going at a fantastic rate.... [Simon:] Yeah. Compared to the WordPerfect. Courier ten fifteen. [whispering] []. [John:] It hasn't asked me any questions about how weird my machine is or wh what are you doing with an Amstrad or anything. [Simon:] ... [speaker003:] Modern. [Simon:] Er I think [John:] and this is the other thing that [Simon:] Yeah? [John:] O Olayan D L L stuff, I can just whip stuff from spreadsheets to word processors and st stick it on a clipboard. [Simon:] Supposedly I, I think there are problems with it working. I, I, I er I ge end up never really tackled these problems but I have heard rumours that [John:] Mm. [Simon:] erm not enough people exhaustively enough implement O L E in their applications [John:] file. Yeah. [Simon:] or you'd be able to exchange it. So the capability is there but not used [John:] Amipro We've got a version of it. [Simon:] What's this? [John:] Amipro [Simon:] Amipro [John:] We've got a version of Amipro that doesn't write. [Simon:] There you go, Times Roman in [John:] Hey! That's a Cambridge I think. [Simon:] That's a tasty one, that, that [John:] Yeah? [Simon:] it's a good one. [John:] Yeah. I've got erm... proportional space code which is very similar to it on the Microsoft Works. Have you got Panasonic? [Simon:] Depends on your printer [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] driver. [John:] Panasonic Panasonic. [Simon:] Mm. I did have a, a Panasonic Times. [John:] Has this got erm joined up writing as well? Two types [Simon:] Er... Don't remember. It's got all kinds of funny ones. [speaker003:] . [John:] [singing] Bom bom bom []. [Simon:] It might ask you a question about the A Twenty driver. [John:] It should be okay actually. Erm DOS Five was one of the best buys I ever made because [Simon:] There's something there called W S swap, I wonder if that's a word processor to word processor converter... another undocumented feature. [speaker003:] I think [Simon:] I s I, I never really played with Windows, I just installed it to do the job of running this one application... and then left it alone. [John:] Well I I got it cos Sue needs to know, I mean the things they do at, at her work are just unbelievable. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I mean there's one woman there working on a Three Eight Sixes twenty five megahertz and she works off the floppy all the time, she doesn't use the hard drive. She's got an eighty meg hard drive. [Simon:] Yeah, presumably it's what she's used to, she's used to floppy. [John:] It's what she's used to. And she was sort of telling Sue to do this, and Sue said this isn't is it? And I'm thinking work on your, work on your hard drive and when you've got it the way you want it and when you've got it the way you want it save it to the floppy and [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] erm n they won't buy disks, they got about twenty sort of faculty heads [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and they can all give them work. There are about half a dozen who regularly do and [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] say you need a box of disks for each of them [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and you keep their work on their disks and if they want it [Simon:] Yeah [John:] doesn't belong to the typist it belongs to the [Simon:] Mm. [John:] the faculty head. And if she wants to do her own bit of typing and give it to someone else sh [Simon:] b selection! [John:] Right no printer attached so... I will have a [Simon:] You need your mouse. [John:] a Panasonic. Can I page down? [Simon:] You can probably cursor down, yeah. [John:] Or tab? [Simon:] Cursor down. Tab will move you to a different part of the [John:] Erm page page [Simon:] se search. [John:] down. [Simon:] Yeah should be able to do that... you might even be able to jump by typing initial letter [John:] Erm [Simon:] but I doubt it [John:] y yes [Simon:] Ah there you go! [John:] I did I didn't doubt it for a minute, I thought I know this [Simon:] Which one have you got? [John:] I've got the K X B one hundred and twenty four [Simon:] That's a huge one that is. [John:] it really is [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] it doesn't do colour [Simon:] Well what do you expect? [John:] Okay. Erm That's all I want, really. [Simon:] Good. You might not know how to select multiple ones but [John:] Erm if I want another one I [Simon:] Ah, do you know what you want? [John:] I do want. [Simon:] What's E P T, is that like a network? [John:] Ooh ooh I don't know [Simon:] Printer port or something I've never seen that before on a menu [John:] E P T E P T crunch crunch. Now WordPerfect did that [Simon:] Mm. [John:] It buggered about on it [Simon:] Mm. [John:] and [speaker003:] Pow! [John:] and ever since then er well the only thing I've done on it since then is to just er Sue loaded [Simon:] Mm. [John:] WordPerfect on it to compare it with the other one [whispering] and it was... I er said [] [Simon:] Presumably it's just fragmented your [John:] Yeah. I said I'm going to have to clear that and delete a bit of stuff off and load it with and load WordPerfect again. [Simon:] Do you want to use my disk? [John:] Que est-ce que c'est? [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes I would love to, I would love to erm ooh look at that! [Simon:] That's so cool! [John:] Yeah I've wanted to [speaker003:] Defrag me disk [John:] about the last month or so I've felt it getting slower. [Simon:] And you haven't got a utility to do it, you just have to take it out and put it back on again? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... chug chug chug chug chug chug.... [Simon:] Wow. Oh this is where it er loads all your applications. Er this I don't understand, I fucked up at this stage. [John:] Right. Setup needs to know the application name for DOS edit. [reading] Select the application name form the following list and choose [] okay or press enter, and its DOS editor [Simon:] It is in fact it is that isn't? [John:] That's what I would call it, yeah? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So it was a good guess there. [Simon:] Mm.... You got GEM have you? [John:] Yeah.... the disks that might work [Simon:] Real GEM? [John:] Real GEM, GEM. [speaker003:] Log off. [John:] the GEM [Simon:] GEM [John:] Well I've got one that came with erm Timeworks which is, it works properly and [Simon:] Mm. [John:] it looks nice. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Ah this looks prettier though. [Simon:] Yeah, [John:] Let's see. power. [Simon:] That's okay. That's that is Works Two isn't it? [John:] Yeah, that's Works Two. I could, I would very much like Works for Windows some time. Perhaps we can [Simon:] Mm. [John:] buy it between us one day. might buy it. [Simon:] The people upstairs who must have got it. And the I had a look at it once, it did look a bit [John:] It is [Simon:] flasher. [John:] it is better it's got erm, there are things... I think one of the, I'm [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] not sure but I think one of the things is [Simon:] Yeah that's right. [John:] erm that you can have character strings as the arguments of functions in the spreadsheet and database. bloody ages doing things like if, if mode so and so to work out whether it's a Monday or a Tuesday or something and then trying and everything else to try and get [Simon:] Yeah [John:] set something to a Monday. [Simon:] Mm [John:] Erm that was okay, wasn't it? [Simon:] No. [John:] Ah. Right, sorry that's erm none of those. Okay, so that was loading W P Fifty One. Doesn't it allow to type in? [Simon:] I don't know. [John:] You do it late, okay. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Ah, that's an old version of it... Works. So should I say none of those [Simon:] Might as well I don't know [John:] I'll say none of those because [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] In case they don't want to handle because it's going to, yeah and it's gonna get it's just a backup for Works [Simon:] Mm. [John:] for a quick and dirty on the same disk. [Simon:] Ooh, it knows about WordPerfect! [John:] [LAUGHTER] It would! Multilabel office and all sorts of things it knows about. [speaker003:] Slow. ... [John:] I don't think O S Two runs Windows faster than that! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Somehow []. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] It's, it's quite a fast hard drive you've got isn't it? [John:] It's a [Simon:] You've got G W Basic and M S Microsoft Basic. [John:] Yeah. I'm getting rid of one of those. [Simon:] So they'll all get icons now, they'll appear as icons on your er applications. [John:] On m on my highly.... Oh that's good I can go round. [Simon:] And your mouse driver still doesn't work! Er well there's no point running the tutorial until [John:] go to mouse. [Simon:] Yeah er so the tutorial [John:] exit Setup exit Setup. [Simon:] N er s sk skip tutorial, don't exit the Setup, no exit the Setup might eliminate further setup [John:] Right. [Simon:] steps. [John:] Okay, right okay.... Skip tutorial. [Simon:] Probably exit Yeah. [John:] I wasn't thinking there.... [reading] Now setup remove any floppies from your drives [], thank you I'd forgotten. [Simon:] Yes I always d forget that. [John:] We'll leave the last one in. [Simon:] [cough] [John:] Soft boot, restart your computer. So, erm, if I [Simon:] We turn him over to DOS first and modify your mouse driver file from [John:] Exactly. [Simon:] mine. Mm. Yeah [John:] And my button pops in and out does it? Oh well I think I'll ju I'll just play with the tab and make it pop in and out a few times [Simon:] Oh alright! [John:] Oh [Simon:] It's great isn't it? [John:] [LAUGHTER]... [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Right, loading Windows, and it was just like that eh? That [Simon:] Mm. [John:] was that was... [Simon:] really painless wasn't it, considering the amount of software that was loaded. [John:] Yeah.... Right it [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] funny to see how much disk space was you've got left []. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Ah, now we won't edit. First of all let's use the mouse to edit, see what dri driver it picks up. [Simon:] Mhm [John:] No it's not MyMouse it's Microsoft it's Amstrad Mouse, cos I haven't got me real mouse with [Simon:] Mm, [John:] me. [Simon:] right. [typing noises] [John:] Mouse slash D one slash nothing, default [Simon:] It'll figure it out. [John:] Right, Microsoft Six Point Two Six, that's my old one.... I think. [Simon:] Maybe it reads all the Microsoft [John:] there's a I think there's, oh I don't know. I think that's the old mouse driver. [Simon:] Well, when you have a look in the autoexec you'll probably find that there's been a few [John:] Anyway [Simon:] modifications made.... [John:] [yawn] we won't save their version in case we wreck it, will we? [Simon:] Er [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] Yes we will but watch this. wiggle my mouse off.... [Simon:] [yawn] [John:] Whee! It works. [Simon:] Oh good [John:] Good... What I though it was [Simon:] I haven't got a mouse pad unfortunately. [John:] Right, erm [Simon:] Now what's it done? It's added s Windows to your path, that was very discreet of it. [John:] So rem MyMouse. [Simon:] It's put Smart Drive in at the front. That wasn't there before was it? [John:] Er, no it wasn't. Smart Drive goes in first eh? Then comes dis it remmed out the com spec. [Simon:] [yawning] Yeah []. [John:] Stuck a few things, hmm? [Simon:] It's put in front of the path hasn't it? And it's, it's [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] declared a temp variable for temp files. [John:] Okay.... And I remmed out those echo on [Simon:] Yeah, prompt. [John:] prompt [Simon:] Keyboard error [John:] I remmed out the graphics.... Erm was there a C colon in front of that slash DOS? [Simon:] No no, there wasn't. [John:] Perhaps there used to be and I lost it. [Simon:] Well there wasn't when I first looked at that file. [John:] Yeah. Perhaps there was at some stage and I lost it. [Simon:] There doesn't need to be anyway. [John:] No no got some more. [Simon:] Well there you go! [John:] I didn't do much to that at all actually. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm I don't need to touch that because [Simon:] No. [John:] I don I don't put MyMouse in there, I put Mouse in choose which one I want it in Okay. [Simon:] Well when you reboot it then remember to type your mouse command before you start Windows.... [John:] It doesn't automatically boot into Windows then? Ah. [Simon:] No. [John:] win and various parameters to get it [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So click on our we exit. We don't alter that. [Simon:] Yeah........ [John:] Oh [Simon:] [yawning] Yeah []... it will have done things like, given you more files and buffers. [John:] We don't need to be editing w probably only gonna look at it now. [Simon:] Yeah, probably.... No it doesn't seem to have given you any more files and buff [John:] fifty perhaps [Simon:] what you had before, fifteen to twenty five [John:] Yeah, okay. [Simon:] I guess you had enough. [John:] Er rem shell. [Simon:] Now you high load Smart Drive don't you? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Oh no you commented that out. Or did it comment that out? [John:] I did. [Simon:] You did. Cos you put the date in there. [John:] Yeah. Erm I, I thought that was a good idea, putting the date of when I remmed it out. [Simon:] Mm it is. [John:] I think only trouble is it's hard to put the date of when you remmed it back in [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Unremmed it in. [Simon:] Yes. [sniff] Er puts that in. [John:] Right. it says in lots of we shouldn't put that in anyway, but I wasn't sure what it did. [Simon:] I've no idea what it does. I think it's only a Windows thing. [John:] . Okay that's fine isn't it? [Simon:] Yeah.... [John:] Mm.... character pointer. Erm before we go anywhere... [Simon:] Wow. [John:] I want to keep up Q Basic. Er what do we want to do? see the survival guide.... [Simon:] Wow. [John:] Erm index. [Simon:] That's great! You know what I have to do with my G W Basic? I have to sit there like typing in random keywords to see if it's a keyword. [John:] Yeah, it's so easier. Erm function [Simon:] Ah, I'm not sure whether I ever did that! [John:] is the obvious one. Hurray! [Simon:] Ah! [John:] [LAUGHTER] So it was worth it just for that going [Simon:] Yeah! [John:] into Q Basic. Erm, right. You want a copy of Q Basic? [Simon:] Yes please! [John:] Right, well, I think before we start Windows... I'll erm I'll reload... I, I'll un-rem that. [Simon:] This is my do it yourself manual, that I just learned by trial and error. [John:] Oh, excellent, excellent. An ideal WordPerf word processor application that. Okay so you can play with your own. So we'll get out of this I think... Okay. I mean we could load one if you want to play. Where are we? Er let's open something and see what we've got.... Erm star dot pass... Where does it keep its? In DOS doesn't it? [Simon:] Yeah,. [John:] So over there then. [Simon:] E T [John:] this is just like sort of Microsoft Works, you can play about with that erm [Simon:] Yeah, it's good that. [John:] DOS. [Simon:] what is it? Microsoft Works is wri written in Q Basic [John:] Yeah. Erm, gorilla is throwing bananas at the gorilla and you have to get that traj je trajectory right. So if you look at the source for gorilla [Simon:] Ooh! [LAUGHTER] [John:] you'll see I had to calculate parabola, [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. [John:] erm nibbles. Nibbles is an interesting one that I played one night and I was going cor! I can do this! Let's have a quick nibble, okay. [Simon:] [yawn] [John:] Loading and parsing nibbles, one or two players. I c I, I won't be able to do any of this but you can have a quick go. Erm... Shift F Five Shift F Five. Okay. Are you ready for this worm? It goes creeping round and you have to pick up numbers in order [Simon:] Mm. Mm. [John:] and you have to use your cursor keys [Simon:] Ah, right. [John:] to turn it. You don't have to play if you don't want to. [Simon:] I don't think I'm capable! [John:] Right, okay. [Simon:] I wan I want to see Windows going, I want to see your mouse going on Windows. [John:] Okay you want to see the mouse going on Windows. Now [whistles through teeth] [Simon:] I'll tell you something else [John:] Yeah? [Simon:] on quite a few occasions, Windows ran until the first time I rebooted the computer.... [John:] Oh dearie me. Well if [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] it does that I suggest that we look at it again tomorrow. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah, yeah that's a good idea. [John:] Erm [sucks teeth] [Simon:] So start your mouse d have you rebooted yet? No [John:] No I'm just thinking of using the, of using Laplink first, no, we'll do that tomorrow. [Simon:] No, no need, yeah. [John:] because we, it doesn't automatically draw up into Windows, that's what I keep thinking. Right. [Simon:] Yeah, yeah. [John:] Do you think it needs a hard boot? It should n't. [Simon:] W er I, I've had a lots of problems with soft boots, but that's cos I use UNIX [John:] Mm. [Simon:] and funny er [John:] Mm. [Simon:] funny BIOS. [John:] I, I have occasionally th just of sort of had a feeling I think I'll do a hard boot this time. Brr!... Is it very smelly in here or is it me?... [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] I dunno. [LAUGHTER] Maybe it is time to go and make a.... That's Alan Sugar doing that isn't it? That display is Amstrad's BIOS.... [John:] Yeah, they erm I got DOS Five, loaded it up, and it says unable to find a twenty line and I was, it was still under guarantee [Simon:] Mm. [John:] just about, so I phoned up erm [Simon:] graphics. [John:] Rentaf Rentafone or whoever do it, and erm eventually got to spoke to so get to speak to somebody. Right [hands rubbing together] [Simon:] Oh mice driver, mouse driver. Load your mouse driver [John:] Okay [Simon:] You didn't load your mouse driver? [John:] No, I will do. I only having a look at it. [Simon:] Oh, right. [John:] Three Eight Six enhanced mode, standard mode. You know all about this? [Simon:] There's on expanded mode and enhanced mode. The best one's, is expanded mode [John:] Three Eight Six I reckon Three Eight Six. [Simon:] You could set that up in your setup options so [John:] Right. [Simon:] you just start it in standard mode or in default mode. [John:] Create file boot log. [Simon:] Oh I don't remember that. [John:] How about a boot log? Just in case something goes a bit wrong [Simon:] Sure, yeah fine and [John:] Troubleshooter, [LAUGHTER] for when Windows does not start correctly [], now that is very [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] very confidence inspiring isn't [Simon:] Yeah [John:] it? Ooh well I can do with that cos I got a Three Eight Six, it should be perfectly fast. Mine's [Simon:] Ah, but you need a thirty two bit controller [John:] Yes [Simon:] which you probably haven't got. [John:] four bit controller [LAUGHTER] on this [] two bit controller. [Simon:] Sixteen bit controller are standard. [John:] I'm sure it'll be a sixteen bit controller. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] I must say n nobody knows, probably a two bit. Okay [Simon:] Yeah. Wrong address. [John:] Er er okay. [Simon:] You don't need any of that stuff. [John:] I probably might. It might be able to grab some er some of me video that's not being used. [Simon:] Yeah. I just, I just typed in [John:] I will start me mouse, excludes all of the. [Simon:] That's using video memory. [John:] So these are the include and exclude [Simon:] Mm. [John:] things. Right, let's have mouse. Jolly good.... That's right, install. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] I've never thought of that as a v verb [] Win [John:] Slash B [Simon:] What for? [John:] block [Simon:] Block [John:] Okay? [Simon:] Yeah, alright, I don't wanna debug it though so. [John:] Erm used for troubleshooting when it doesn't start. You a D as well? [Simon:] You actually have to pick a sub-option. [John:] Does it, does it mean [LAUGHTER] does it, does it mean that when you use D it then doesn't work? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [] [John:] If you want it not to work use the slash B... Okay slash B and that's it.... Ah on one disk for Sue this, this sort of woman who was there sort of telling [Simon:] Mm. [John:] a load of rubbish and [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] erm Sue could probably do with spending a bit of time learning about DOS, but I don't see the point. I think she'd be better off spending, they've got Windows on the machines but they run under DOS [Simon:] Right. [John:] erm, but I don't see why she can't, whenever she wants to look for files, copy files and sort out other people's mess why she doesn't erm this is the first, this is it is it? Ooh, ooh, ooh ooh, [Simon:] Nowhere [John:] ooh ooh, [Simon:] Hang on. [John:] Can you can we use the, oh hang on, num lock off, can we use these [Simon:] well hang on, we should, we should at least be able to oh if we cursor about, that's it. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] go into Windows setup. [John:] Can I cursor with these? [Simon:] Don't know. [John:] Set up the mouse [Simon:] Mouse Microsoft, oh it already thinks you've got a mouse. That's a bit of a shame. [John:] Yeah, we've got a wrong driver... and I didn't have one in my things so I might have to regroup with a proper [whistles through teeth]... let's have a look in DOS and see what mouse drivers it's got.... Or Window. W i it'll be in Windo where will it keep its mouse driver, in DOS or Windows? [Simon:] Er [John:] Or do both [Simon:] I you mean in terms of directories? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Er here i i i this is where you control it from anyway. [John:] Yeah but where will the mouse driver live? [Simon:] The actual file? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] system probably, but it might use them on. DOS... erm damn erm [John:] just change, escape form that? Just escape and then we won't have done.... [Simon:] Now we got to cursor key to go through the options. Now systems... now systems [John:] Ooh hang on, hang on, hang on hang on hang on hang on hang on hang on. [Simon:] What? [John:] the other one, the other one is. Sorry erm it isn't a BUS do you think? [Simon:] What? [John:] This one. It's a special mouse port. [Simon:] Oh then maybe this [John:] Actually I think it's m I, I would try [Simon:] Okay. [John:] P S Two plus mouse... P S Two [Simon:] And it's not?... [John:] No, well I don't think so. [Simon:] That system's. See that's the driver it's already using. [John:] Yeah, because that's the one it found, if it doesn't find the Amstrad one [Simon:] Mm. [John:] the Amstrad is hidden and it's patched. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] So it's messy. So [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I would give it that one and I [Simon:] Right [John:] think it might work. If it doesn't, then we're no worse than we are at the moment, really aren't we? [Simon:] Mhm.... Oh dear. [John:] That's a socket, that'll [LAUGHTER] time for a cup of coffee I think, while we have a look at, and we'll have a look at the, the boot log file in a minute and see what it did.... Ee I'm glad you're here young man!... Let's go to M S DOS... and see if we can get the mouse working in M S DOS [Simon:] . It, it was working wasn't it?... [John:] Yeah. Now [Simon:] Mouse. [John:] something about using mouse in the in the DOS box. [Simon:] Oh this must be like mouse. Right. [John:] Double click, test. Let's have a test.... [speaker003:] Er... [John:] [humming] [Simon:] Oh this is where you really do need a mouse. [John:] Yeah. Changing mouse options, [Simon:] Mm yeah, very good bit confusing sometimes but. Er right.... [John:] What y what are you doing here? [Simon:] Closing the, closing [John:] Yeah, yeah [Simon:] the window. [John:] Closing, and what, what were you doing to close it? [Simon:] Alt er I, I er er I a actually have three different methods there. All [John:] Mm. [Simon:] of them began by pressing Alt in which [John:] Yeah [Simon:] case the sort of top leftish menu highlighted. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] In some cases I opened that menu and selected exit. [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] And some of them just hit return. If I had a mouse I just click in the top corner. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Which is the iconic way of doing it. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Erm, I'll have a look in drivers. [John:] Change [Simon:] but erm [John:] its settings for mouse... let's have a look in drivers erm... you haven't got a mouse, have you? [Simon:] No. [John:] any, any other sort of mouse I could have brought me mouse with me and we could have run it off the serial port... erm it's a pain that Amstrad mouse.... [Simon:] General help system. [John:] What I would like erm the, the dreaded Vine Micros sell one that's Amstrad compatible. So we don't want P S Two mouse, so it might be a, it might be just a serial port there after all then. [Simon:] Yeah, I don't know. It's erm I, I, I, I don't really understand that. How, how that bit of hardware works.... This is a er I think this is a slight defect in the design of the interface [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] erm, it, the,i the, the er means of closing a window is not always in the same place. Here it seems that it's going be generally it's in the top left menu, but some of them don't have menus. Erm [John:] Right. [Simon:] General General help mouse... program manager now general help Oh, I know what we can do.... Alt menu. Erm... we've already tried. Oh yeah try to get into. [John:] Let's go into file menu and have a look at what, what drivers are about.... [Simon:] What do you mean? File manager help or file manager? [John:] Er no, file manager look at the fi look at the drivers that are in DOS or in Windows.... [Simon:] Where's your Amstrad mouse driver?... [John:] In the root directory I would think. [Simon:] When you were [John:] This would only have looked in DOS. Now I'll tell you what happens. It's a weird thing erm it starts off in the root and then it erm u used a single mouse fix to patch it and then DOS dots it.... erm, how d how do we erm [whistles through teeth] do it by... er sort of D I R by extension. [Simon:] Erm I think if it, in this file menu there'll probably be an option to er t to specify [John:] Ah [Simon:] a wildcard. Er... y... [John:] Name, type is presumably extension is it? Yeah [Simon:] Yeah [John:] Yes. all quite tidy [Simon:] all quite tidy [John:] drivers and stuff together then.... directories [Simon:] directories.... And there's something called mouse.... MyMouse, Mouse Com, Mouse Fix [John:] Right. Right. Now MyMouse Com is for running the serial mouse. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Erm I mean nothing to do with this one. [Simon:] So what happens when you run Mouse Com? [John:] Erm, how about running how about running. No I think you'd run Mouse Fix first. How about running Mouse Fix and see what happens? It can't make it any worse can it? [Simon:] Shell out of DOS first. [John:] Oh it just gave us a nice thing saying I've fixed your mouse, thank you very much. And it's, I reckon. [Simon:] No. yeah yeah, you're right [John:] I reckon. [Simon:] It's a funny thing for it to do. [John:] have a go? [Simon:] No it's alright. [John:] Now we'll try, now having fixed the mouse we'll try and run Mouse Com.... [Simon:] Oh I hit enter. I double clicked on it [John:] what it might have done is that probably didn't need doing because Mouse Com was probably already fixed and now we're unfixing it? [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Mm, well it will only be for this session anyway, movement? No. [John:] Erm no. So we haven't got a better mouse driver. Let's get, go, let's have a look at DOS. Where's DOS?... [Simon:] It's awkward using this without a mouse. [John:] Right, let's get into DOS directory and pick up a Mouse Com or a mouse driver from there erm and execute, it will copy it into the root. Yeah? [Simon:] Mm, into what? [John:] We're overwriting that mouse driver there, because that is my old mouse driver I think. files [Simon:] So a real mouse driver somewhere? [John:] Well, that mouse runs [Simon:] Mm. [John:] it runs everything erm and all you do is just say mouse. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Ah, do I see mouse, do I say mouse? [Simon:] You say MyMouse don't you? [John:] No no no no no, I don't say MyMouse. Erm, have a look at [Simon:] See it's working. Okay so it's working, it's loaded. [John:] It's alright in DOS. [Simon:] Yeah [John:] And despite the fact that it's just been patched, [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] and run again, it still [Simon:] Mhm, and generally buggered about with. [John:] Erm... so, right. [Simon:] Reboot it, start Windows without running your mouse driver, see if Windows will run it itself. [John:] Okay.... soft boot? No hard boot with a mouse. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] want a cup of coffee while it's doing it? [Simon:] Yeah it's definitely time for a cup of coffee. Ooh! [sound of chair moving] [John:] Who's been painting the chair then? [Simon:] ? [John:] [LAUGHTER] Who's been painting my chair [] Oh!... if I come into your bedroom in the night and pee on you, [Simon:] Yeah? [John:] It's nothing personal just I get lost! [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] ... [kettle boiling] [speaker003:] ... [tape change] [Simon:] haven't we? [John:] We've got but it'll be alright [Simon:] toothbrush... I always wanted to do that I read an article somewhere this journalist [John:] Stick a pencil in [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] You can j you can just stick your pencil in your fan and it doesn't do any damage but [John:] Mm. [Simon:] it's the sort of thing you want to try on someone [LAUGHTER] else's [] [John:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] get off []! [John:] My fan stops by itself, mine, [Simon:] Yeah? [John:] wonderful. [Simon:] Yeah? [John:] I was even thinking of of [Simon:] Is th [John:] paying [Simon:] is that just yours then going? Or [John:] thermostatic fan. [Simon:] mine going rather?... Oh that's yours. [John:] Yeah it's noisy this one, [Simon:] It's drowning my fan out! [John:] [LAUGHTER] it cos I've got a Three Eight Six see, [Simon:] Oh that's right. [John:] a louder fan [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Vroom! Vroom! [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] All that energy rippling off the chip. [John:] Right, well I've [Simon:] Is that a key thingy? What's this here? [John:] Don don't turn if off. That's the key. [Simon:] Oh wow. [John:] Take that off you see and no one can run programs. [Simon:] Yeah. Unless they open the case. [John:] Right now I I've, I've bought this copy of Windows. I'm not sure what I've done with the instructions, so it's [LAUGHTER] it [] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Oh. I suggest you start with disk one. [John:] Th that's what I would say. [Simon:] Unlike Works where you start with, start with disk four [John:] Disk four, and then go on to [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Then it's disk three, and then back to disk one and [John:] Oh. [Simon:] yeah. Oh, me biscuits! I'll ju I'm just going to go downstairs. [John:] Oh okay. [Simon:] like to go downstairs for [John:] Right, put that in and type install, how about that for a guess? [Simon:] Yeah, er [John:] Cos it's Microsoft [Simon:] yeah, yeah I think so, you could do a directory of it first [John:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] now i now he says [] [Simon:] Do a directory [John:] [LAUGHTER] it doesn't know []!... Right. [Simon:] I think. Yeah, it might be called Setup, install install wouldn't it? [John:] It might be Setup, [Simon:] Have you never done this before? [John:] Never ever ever ever. You, you've done this fourteen times [Simon:] Yeah [John:] Erm [Simon:] I've done it with D R DOS Six, which is much more complicated. It's really easy just to do it with Windows. [John:] Now what have got there, that looks as if [Simon:] The f the first thing they ask you, right is i it says [John:] Expand. [Simon:] it says do you know what you're talking about? You know, and the answer is no. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] It says [John:] Go and read the manual [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] It says would you like to accept the defaults or would you like to specify things yourself. So I always say, oh specify things myself [John:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] And me []! And me! [Simon:] Yeah and then [John:] Right [Simon:] it asks you er what would you like to do with that and you say I don't even know what it is! [John:] We've got a setup here. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] It looks like setup. I bet you're right, just cos you've done it forty times [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] you're bound to be right. And the setup sh! Oh, [Simon:] [yawn] [yawning] Is there anything there called install []? [John:] I don't think so. There's [Simon:] [yawning] Oh []! [John:] one way to find out. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Let's r log on to the A drive first presumably? [Simon:] Don't have to. Er, oh! Er [John:] Some of them you do. [Simon:] yeah, sometimes you have to show added precaution. [John:] Okay, so [Simon:] Yeah [John:] we'll try install and see if the respond [Simon:] Oh yeah, there are two ways to do it, D I R install. [John:] good [Simon:] There you go, installation WordPerfect? Ah! [LAUGHTER] [John:] Oh! [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] That is the problem with typing install. [John:] [reading] Would you like to continue []? No. [LAUGHTER] Cos it's on the [Simon:] Yeah [John:] path. [Simon:] It's a, yeah [John:] Right, we'll have, we'll have [Simon:] explicit that [John:] A colon setup, thank you. From A colon [Simon:] We'll try install,bu but give it an explicit path. [John:] Okay.... I'm pretty sure it's setup. [Simon:] Mm. We'll see. Yeah, guess so. [John:] Thank you. [Simon:] Well that's a good name for an installation program, isn't it? Setup.... This wouldn't work for me cos I've also got, I've got D R DOS Setup on my path, so whenever I'd type setup I'd get D R DOS Setup. [LAUGHTER] Or whatever it is I'm trying to configure []. [John:] My, change someone's path [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Yeah.... Yeah. Ooh that's doing something. Chugging away on a floppy. [John:] this is dead slow. This [Simon:] Is it? [John:] floppy. Erm, he, I complained about the disk. When [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] I complained before it went out of warranty and again after it had gone out of warranty and it was sort of very dodgy and I had [Simon:] Yeah [John:] let him do what he did. Erm, but he basically de-soldered the resistor from the motherboard, soldered another one in to make it run slower. [Simon:] How does that work? And why did he do that? And stuff like that. [John:] Ah he said he was go he promised that he was going to bring a new disk, and then he hadn't and then he did this and I thought mm I'm not going to get a new disk out of him now it's out of warranty and at least it's working now and [Simon:] Mm. [John:] it wasn't so. Okay. [Simon:] But wh why would disks have different speeds anyway? [John:] Erm [Simon:] Were they at different transfer rates? [John:] The processor speeds. The processor can't handle, you know s similar to weight space [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] in memory, but [Simon:] It's like interleave factors and stuff [John:] I mean my X T for example, [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] just couldn't handle... [LAUGHTER] the transfer rate from that []. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] It couldn't take one cylinder of it [Simon:] Right. [John:] It take two bytes at [LAUGHTER] a time [] [Simon:] sector and wait for it to come round again and take the next sector. [John:] Yeah, and wait for it to come round again and t by which time it will have shoved it off somewhere and [Simon:] Yeah, yeah [John:] to take the next one. So... [Simon:] Now why are you using append? Append is the data version of subst or something, isn't it? Append is where you look for data files if the path is not otherwise specified. [John:] Right, let's see what's it's got. [Simon:] It's just telling you to, to run it, to get rid of incompatible programs. Y you've used append to declare an append [John:] It says that the [Simon:] directory. [John:] is running. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm, they used er well M S DOS Five Setup append for me to append to its path. [Simon:] Why? [John:] I don't know why. It did it [Simon:] D you think it needs data files? [John:] Erm [Simon:] Cos append is like a path for data [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] rather than f for programs isn't it? [John:] Yeah, and I usually consid I mean don't like it but I usually think it's reasonably safe [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] join and subst and stuff like that which I didn't touch. [Simon:] Yeah, [John:] I never use append cos I don't have any need for it. No. [Simon:] Well you're going to have to get rid of it, so. [John:] Well I can C, C to continue setup. [Simon:] Er, recommended that you quit and get rid of it. [John:] Alright, let's [Simon:] Er [John:] F Three to quit setup and have a look at it. [Simon:] If this, this, this is Windows, you should be able to open a window into Setup Dot T X T and then resume your installation procedure where you left off. Rather than have to bail out and do it again. [John:] Ah, okay, okay. [reading] It's not completely set up, if you quit Setup now you will need to run Setup again []. [Simon:] I would a based on my, my hard-won experience of fucking around with Windows I suggest that you take all recommendations [John:] yes [Simon:] do it totally by the book, and [John:] Right. [Simon:] if it doesn't work, [John:] Erm, right. [Simon:] you start playing with things. [John:] Okay [Simon:] Why are you in reverse video? Are you normally in reverse video? [John:] If I've set my prompt to that. [Simon:] Ah. [John:] Cos I like looking at I think it's easier... It's a change [Simon:] Yeah it could be. Could be [John:] to read sort of black on white rather than white on black. [Simon:] change [John:] Erm, I'll give you the prompt if you like to do that. Make it in blue and white,. [Simon:] It's an escape sequence presumably [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] is it? Yeah, might as well. [John:] So, we'll have a look at it in a minute.... [Simon:] What's Edit? Is that a thing that comes with DOS Five? [John:] Yeah, it's a nice little editor [Simon:] This is the editor that comes with DOS Six which is a clone of WordStar. [John:] It is better than, it is a lot better than Headline, on the old [Simon:] Oh yeah [John:] on the old DOS, and that's not saying much. [Simon:] No. [John:] a right-handed mouse here. [Simon:] I'm just going to put a rem statement in my autoexec which copies your prompt so that I can use it later.... [John:] Er I'm on the A drive, that's why. Right okay. [Simon:] Wow, menu driven. Okay. [John:] It's nice, it's Mi sort of Microsoft standard. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] So, it is my config sys I'm looking for isn't it, while I find an edit.... You can have Edit actually, if y if you should happen [Simon:] Ah! [John:] to want it because it's Basic. It's a Basic program.... Erm, [Simon:] With what Basic [John:] it does. You need Q Basic, you need Q Basic [Simon:] I haven't got Q Basic's supposed to be quite good. [John:] It's not bad. I had a little [Simon:] I was talking to this guy the other day who works as a programmer and that's what he uses. [John:] Mm, it's pretty well structured and it's [Simon:] Mm. [John:] you know it does the things you need to do. [Simon:] Where does this come from? [John:] Now we've got a load of stuff in here, erm after the path I would expect an append wouldn't you?. [Simon:] Can you search for words? [John:] Y... you sure can. You can even replace, search and replace. [Simon:] Search for the word append.... [John:] ... I don't think it's case sensitive.... It'll be in lower case anyway. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Lying toad. Is it in my erm [Simon:] It's in your autoexec, it won't be a [John:] autoexec [Simon:] You can only y [John:] Right. [Simon:] you can only put DOS commands in an autoexec file. [John:] Okay, so let's.... I'd rather autoexec [Simon:] No,yo you've just copied didn't you? So, so you've got your copy so you can edit this with impunity and it [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] probably won't be the first time you have to edit it either. [John:] No no. And it might not anyway. [Simon:] Beca becaus needless to say Windows has not examined all the things it wants you to fix. It's just found the first one, bombed out, told you to fix it. [John:] Right.... [Simon:] I don't know what that does. What's that do? Switch E. [John:] Right, path. Well let's try it, erm, you haven't got DOS on that. [Simon:] What if you prompt prompt, oh it's not there. [John:] [whistles through teeth] Can't. [Simon:] I'll tell you what I have got that you haven't got. [John:] Yes there's me prompt me prompt.... There's the prompt. [Simon:] Oh. Er [John:] Dollar E open square bracket, [whispering] ready []?... Dollar E open square bracket zero semicolon... thirty four semicolon... forty seven, M Dollar, P Dollar, G. Erm after the thirty four,. [Simon:] Yeah. Probably,. [John:] Erm, yes. [Simon:] So it's escape, zero comma thirt semicolon thirty four semicolon forty seven M dollar P dollar G, Ooh er. [John:] not even want to and see what happens next time yo you get it up. [Simon:] Yeah [John:] want to reset your prompt to [Simon:] Well I wouldn't remember that one either. [John:] Ah.... Right. Oh yeah I had one of those, I've got on I've got one of those on the X T, date and time. [Simon:] Right, I'm going to find out about append. [John:] Thank you.... [Simon:] Er, I mean it's ancient, it's for things where you can't give a path as an argument. Use with care, blah blah blah. Slash E kept in the environment. [John:] Ah right. [Simon:] So it passes it when it shells out. [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] And the other one just specifies what the path is, doesn't it? [John:] Right. [Simon:] What was it? It was, path [whistling] er append C slash DOS. [John:] So it's gon it's gonna muck up my path anyway erm [Simon:] So it's looking for data files in directory DOS, why would it do that? [John:] Why would it do that? Because it'll have DOS Help for a start. From wherever you are, you'd want [Simon:] Well, would it not know where that is [John:] okay, so we'll knock it out eh? [Simon:] Yeah, bin it. [John:] Then it won't object....... [Simon:] Do you know what pisses me off? Is I haven't got any like super flash graphicy type programs. You know I always get, you know this could be an N D A display. When in fact it isn't, if you run the O S Two demo it looks super fa you know super fantastic. [John:] ... I've got some of those. Now,... Alt S, [Simon:] Oh yeah, so you need more. [John:] It's that one, that's the same one, still on there. So... [Simon:] What's the mode check? [John:] Erm it checks the video mode I think so if it's, if it fails, mode black and white [Simon:] Right. Yeah, yeah, mm, right, mm, mm [John:] more appends. Seems to go back to the start again.... Yeah it goes d off the bottom and back up to the start. So that'll do, we'll save that, okay.... I could be doing this with the mouse but. [Simon:] Right, back to the installation thingy. Oh have you got any Windows directories, on your hard drive [John:] called Win, or Windows or no, not [Simon:] cos if you do it i i basically can't cope with it. It tr [John:] Right. [Simon:] it does the worst possible thing, [John:] It tries to be clever [Simon:] it tries to cope with it when it can't. Rather than simply giving up [John:] [whistles through teeth] [Simon:] or, [John:] Okay. [humming] [Simon:] whatever the other alternatives are.... [John:] So I'm learning a lot and I haven't even got Setup running. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah [].... Oh dear. [John:] No, I've read sort of odd letters from b bewildered of, of [Simon:] Yeah, yeah [John:] [LAUGHTER] I've, I have tried for three weeks to get my Windows loaded [] and [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] I keep getting mystery error number seventeen, or [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] something. [Simon:] Well next time buy it factory loaded. [John:] Right. The best way. [Simon:] Is the answer. [John:] ... is reading Setup inf, that's sounds good,. [Simon:] Ye er, it says that, it says that before. Erm actually there is a kind of a readme file, which it might not be totally inadvisable to read before installing. Ah, you haven't rebooted so you will again [John:] I've still got my old one drive [Simon:] Yeah [John:] Okay. [Simon:] er [John:] So we'll F Three and get out of that. [Simon:] Yeah, but's let's have a look at that erm thingy file t to see if there are any other nasties waiting. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] F Three to exit... and Edit Setup Dot T X T... On A. [John:] On B. [Simon:] Not necessarily Edit on A but Edit Sys Dot Dot T X T on A. [John:] Have a look at A colon Edit or just have a look at it? Ar [Simon:] Dunno. [John:] are we going to edit it or just to see it [Simon:] No, we're not going to edit it [John:] No, right we'll [Simon:] Why, have you got a read only editor? [John:] w we'll browse it. [Simon:] Ooh! [John:] [LAUGHTER] It's only a list show word thing. [Simon:] Right. [John:] Erm, I, I just call it browsing. [Simon:] Ah, well the reason I always use an editor is so you can go back on yourself. [John:] Mhm. You can d do things in this. [Simon:] Yeah, oh show me. show me, [John:] it's A colon have a c [Simon:] impress me. [John:] have a copy of this over the, over the magic link [Simon:] Aargh! [John:] and send your registration thing off shortly. [Simon:] Oh, no naturally. [John:] And you'll have to tell me the name of your [Simon:] Er Setup Dot T X T.... Ooh. Ooh that's a bit dark, I can't see that at all. [John:] No, I think probably if you pay for it you get it in [LAUGHTER] black and white []. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER]... Right, information about... Blah, blah TSRs and stuff. Yeah it's mainly TSRs of course [John:] [cough] [Simon:] blue you know, I think it says, top of file. Yeah [John:] y y you s [Simon:] any, any of those. [John:] you can just go down a bit like that. [Simon:] Hang on, hang on [John:] Or you can page up and page down or [Simon:] you're missing the content here. Er but okay yeah if you can scroll back that's ideal isn't it? [John:] Mm. [Simon:] That's all you need. Erm so do you need any of those drivers, Himem, ANSI or whatever,? [John:] I do I do. [Simon:] Do they appear in that order? [John:] Himem Sys. C M and ANSI Dot Sys. [Simon:] Who knows? [John:] Not sure about the ANSI but I would put the Himem before the erm Three Eight Six. [Simon:] Yeah you'd have to, wouldn't you? [John:] Or it wouldn't do much. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm I'm not using Compaq, okay so I'll page down. I haven't got [Simon:] Not using a Teeger Or a Safari? [John:] No. [Simon:] Bet you wish you were using a Teeger [John:] I'd swap them. I wouldn't mind. You've got one on. [LAUGHTER] I'll swap you for an old X T Myrtle [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Hey, I've got erm, I've got a er a possibly V G A card with me somewhere. [Simon:] Ooh. [John:] I think it's under the bed actually. [Simon:] Right. [John:] I probably, I probably knelt on it when I was getting the computer. [Simon:] Oh no! [John:] Erm [Simon:] Er [John:] displays. this is a par this is a paradise [Simon:] Increase conventional [John:] type and it, it's [Simon:] Is it? [John:] it's compatible with most software. [Simon:] Aha. So it's not [John:] A T I Graphics [Simon:] It's not G G I S [John:] These are the super [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] advantage with [Simon:] Well Teegers are quite flash aren't they? [John:] Oh very, yeah yeah.... Okay er [Simon:] Er any of those [John:] Hallity is the six forty four eighty sixteen colour, no. Erm this is a [Simon:] S Threes are accelerators aren't they? [John:] Yeah, S Three yeah. [Simon:] You're not using stack fortunately. [John:] Or that [reading] do not use Smart Drive to cache the compressed file []. Now I haven't got Smart Drive in. [Simon:] Mm it's only I had, that's the problem I had with Smart Drive and [John:] I'll take the [Simon:] disk doubler. It, okay i er Smart Drive's actually er [John:] Mm. [Simon:] good, recommended [John:] Mm. [Simon:] but not if you've got a disk doubler of some sort. [John:] Okay so I reckon [Simon:] Leave that [John:] probably get it loaded and doing something and then optimize the Smart Drive. [Simon:] Er well that's no er yeah [John:] Well you'll probably do it all in one go. [Simon:] That's the other problem with Windows is there're a lot of things you can't twiddle after you've installed it. [John:] Right okay. [Simon:] And not only not only can't you twiddle it, but it will let you twiddle it, not [John:] And then it and then [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] surprise it's now a disaster. And you c you can, you can't [John:] Er thank you [Simon:] you run it and it crashes and [John:] Right. Okay. [Simon:] So do it right first time. [John:] Ah, what what it is to have an expert. That's great. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm erm now... set up Sys, Smart Drive. [Simon:] Block device drivers. Ooh what have they got. Presumably that's a character device driver is it? [John:] removal, hang on Setup does not modify... boot drive okay. Reference, contains references to block device drivers. Are they ta are they tape drivers or CDs? [Simon:] Disks tend to be, tend to be block device drivers and serial ports tend to be character device. [John:] Yeah, but erm ooh I wonder I think it might be a good idea, [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] to take me laplink out. So if we're going to do any laplinking [Simon:] It might be prudent, yeah [John:] it might be better to do it before we put Windows on. [Simon:] Mm, yeah, yeah. Windows directory in disk start up, er blah. [John:] Rem it rem it out and put it back in later and see if it crashes. [Simon:] Yeah, That's a good thought. [John:] Okay, files are already installed and Setup cannot be. That's a thought, check for a read only er cos I do have a habit of making some of me DOS files read only. [Simon:] Yeah but there won't be any Windows files on your disk [John:] No. [Simon:] so be alright. [speaker003:] Right. [John:] changes. [Simon:] Those changes. That's good. Oh yeah and then you go through this like, that's quite good actually, you go through this erm split screen editor with with its proposed autoexec bat in one [John:] Mm. [Simon:] and yours in the other. And then in er on a case by case basis it says implement this change? [John:] Yes I [Simon:] Or don't or manually type it in. It's er [John:] I was told [Simon:] excellent [John:] I was told this is the up to date version of [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I asked that when I bought it of course. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] XGA, you wish []. [John:] No, P F Two. Out of environment space. [Simon:] That's not very likely... er you haven't got a network [John:] got a network. [Simon:] T S Rs [John:] Right. Got T S Rs [Simon:] you must have billions of them,? [John:] Erm I don't load many of them, apart from the, you know, the usual DOS ones. [Simon:] Right, which are what? [John:] Erm... Well, ANSI [Simon:] It'll try and take them [John:] ANSI DOS Sys graphics [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and things like that. Erm [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] mouse drivers [Simon:] Right, mouse drivers [John:] mouse drivers, take the mouse drivers out. [Simon:] Yeah, cos if it own [John:] it'll, it will look for [Simon:] mouse driver [John:] Right. [Simon:] er th it'll install for you, so. Oh as I remember it installs a backward compatible mouse driver which will... do [John:] backwards. [Simon:] will do all your previous mouse jobs but also work with Windows. I reckon [John:] I know there should be, I should have an up to date driver for this one, and I haven't. Okay like it. [Simon:] In cache.. [John:] Good name for a computer. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] yeah it's erm append [Simon:] Append, do not use. [John:] names ooh. [Simon:] This is a different setup thing than the one I had, I think. [John:] Ah so you don't know how to do it at all then, right. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Well, probably it's got like an expanded [John:] No. [Simon:] list, [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] than [John:] Hopefully it's easier [Simon:] Mm. [John:] than the one you normally use. [Simon:] Yeah. Root Com. [John:] Ah. [Simon:] Erm, you haven't got that have you? [John:] Erm I have got a copy [Simon:] Mm but [John:] erm [Simon:] you don't use it. [John:] but I haven't loaded it yet. [Simon:] Just as well. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] I was just thinking that. Boot Sys, ah actually it might be a Boot Sys I've got..... Right I don't think we'll try and get fancy, like Boot Com and Boot Sys, until we've had a good play with Windows. Cache Two Point, haven't got one of those. Or that. [Simon:] How many partitions have you got in the hard disk? [John:] Or that. Just the one.... [Simon:] sixty five megabytes? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Cor [John:] Graphics. See that's erm [Simon:] Mm. [John:] that's a T S R. Could cause unexpected results. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [] [Simon:] Yeah. Yeah. But why the graphics is just so you can do screen dumps isn't it? [John:] Screen dumps. Erm screen [Simon:] In certain circumstances. [John:] And something else. Erm, it definitely does, is it, you can't do screen dumps without [Simon:] Isn't it one of those sort of semi obsolete things that only applies if you've got M S DOS [John:] Yeah [Simon:] One? [John:] Yeah, I think so.... Er I might have it in [Simon:] Graphics. [John:] Still we will get shot of it. [Simon:] [reading] Print screen key to print the graphics display on y on your printer [] So what does the print screen key usually do? [John:] It prints erm it prints words not, not pictures so if you prin [Simon:] Ah right [John:] if you printed that, what you got on there [Simon:] You get the text but not the menu bar [John:] This lot this lot all comes out as sort of Xs and [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] stuff and gets thrown out, so that it cuts everything, cuts it all out. [Simon:] Not really something you need on a routine basis is it? [John:] get the, get the graphics off, cos there might be graphics in there from [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] an old, an old one. Okay. disk. No, took that out years ago. [Simon:] Yeah, R E M M [John:] No. Someone's I B M Intell, no haven't got that. Join, wouldn't use that. [Simon:] No. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Dot Com. Load it from starting Window.... Presumably you have got a keyboard command? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] ? [John:] Yeah. Okay, so that's erm, keyboard and graphics so far. [Simon:] [yawning] Yeah []. [John:] menu. I've got erm [Simon:] Oh and ANSI Dot Sys to be at the end. [John:] Yeah. I haven't got a. [Simon:] quite common that one. [John:] Mirror in use. Ye yes. [Simon:] You cannot remove it. [John:] Okay.... no no. [Simon:] So that, that editor is written, is erm is written in the interpreted Q Basic? [John:] The one that I was using? Yeah. [Simon:] Yeah. Cor. So presumably th those menus are all like, thirteen instructions [John:] They're they're standard sort of Microsoft menus with sort of [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] for files [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Alt F X to exit. [Simon:] But what I'm saying is that the er m Q Basic must have the facilities to put those menus up by just sort of saying put up menu. [John:] Yeah, it's part of the erm Q Basic [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] It's erm I haven't d [Simon:] Cos I've got G W Basic and it's [John:] I haven't done anything with it. I've just sort of, I've just looked at it and thought, that will be good one day when I ever get round to programming. [Simon:] Does thi that comes with M S DOS Five does it? [John:] Yeah. I mean M S DOS Five I think was very good. Okay it was only keeping up with [Simon:] Mm. [John:] With D R DOS [Simon:] Yeah [John:] erm [Simon:] but it was an important step. [John:] Yeah. P C Quick [Simon:] utilities P C Quick. Do not use. That's crap. Well okay, put it this way, there's a big dispute. P C, Windows say do not use P C Quick, use Smart Drive. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] The people who make P C Quick say do not use Smart Drive, use P C Quick, it will work. So there's a big argument over wh and they're both saying their one's better. They're both saying that they [John:] Well I'm sure, I'm sure Microsoft will prove it doesn't work by changing something and not telling. [Simon:] Changing the code, yeah. Yeah, and then say told you so. [John:] all in backwards so that on, on April fool's day or something. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] I mean it's so easy to put stuff like that in isn't it? That [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] only DOS, only Microsoft programmes would know about. Right, little piece of code in to scramble everything. [sucks teeth] Print [Simon:] Print?... Well you're not on a network so you're alright. [John:] Printer assist, no. [Simon:] Screen saver. We're going to start screen savers, that's one of the, one of its many nice features. [John:] Mhm. page, no. I keep looking at them and thinking I wouldn't buy one of those. no. [Simon:] There's loads of stuff. [John:] Subst no. [Simon:] Didn't we have P C Quick before? [John:] Yeah, this is P C Quick's dish disk cache [Simon:] Ah, ah right. Erm [John:] U M D. [Simon:] [reading] there is no reason to use two disk cache utilities with Windows []. Is there ever a reason to use two disk cache utilities? Sup [John:] Again have a read and write cache [Simon:] Super P C K say it's better. I actually use Super P C, well I've got, I've got three machines around the office. Some of them use super P C K and some of them use Smart Drive and buggered if I can tell the difference. [John:] [LAUGHTER] So they're both better than the? [Simon:] Yeah.... [John:] Sys [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] act like X M A, it's incompatible, okay haven't got that. [Simon:] No, you're alright. And you're as well so [John:] and that's the end of the file. [Simon:] [yawn] [yawning] So [] go back and edit your config sys. [John:] Right. [Simon:] And your autoexec. [John:] hopefully you will remember which. So which shall we do first? [Simon:] do both, do both. [John:] Yeah, which are we doing first? [Simon:] Config first. [John:] Right.... [Simon:] Ooh this is fun. I like installing stuff actually, even though it's sometimes frustrating. [John:] Ooh, it's a bit bright isn't it, [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] get out of the erm [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] the green screen. [Simon:] Yeah. Okay so [John:] So [Simon:] you want to to ANSI Dot Sys and make sure it's after erm [John:] [sigh] [Simon:] which it looks like it isn't. There's Himem. [John:] Oh. Nobody's turned the mouse on. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Er [John:] I don't, I don't put the mouse on in the erm the config sys or autoexec bat [Simon:] What was [John:] two of them. [Simon:] You got Hi yeah, Himem, EMM, Smart Drive and C, so they're in the right order. [John:] right order [Simon:] Er Display Dot Sys, problem with. [John:] Right, let's have a quick look through. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] We had a Keyboard U K somewhere [Simon:] Oh yeah [John:] countries [Simon:] that, that, had to go before Windows. [John:] File control box and files and buffers it will have to probably [Simon:] It'll change those [John:] don't need files, but it'll do those. [Simon:] It'll play with them so [John:] Right. Yeah, shell, it'll sort that out. [Simon:] What's H D Three Eight Six? [John:] Oh it was one that came with this which was remmed out. [Simon:] Oh, okay yeah. [John:] Erm [Simon:] be nice. Er DOS high. [John:] prior to DOS Five. [Simon:] Erm, then install equals K B Dot Com, cos that's going to go before Windows is running, so that's alright. Er, why have you remmed out fast open? [John:] Erm, I think I read it in a magazine somewhere. [Simon:] Yeah? [John:] Get used, space. [Simon:] It does use a fair amount of environment space [John:] I was looking for space for something, I've forgotten what it wa Oh I had a big spreadsheet [Simon:] Mm. [John:] and it suddenly starting erm swapping, fucking about a lot [Simon:] Mm. [John:] swapping, flashing. [Simon:] Okay, and it's got Smart Drive is remmed out er, it'll probably try and put that back in. [John:] Okay, well we can put it back in for it if it likes. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm it can set its parameters to what it thinks is suitable then. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, erm now we'll rem out that I think. [Simon:] Okay. Yeah, that would be prudent but, yeah use Smart Drive because it, as you say it'll probably insert it with parameters it thinks are appropriate. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Erm it didn't say to put Smart Drive after ANSI did it? It said to put ANSI before Windows, or keyboard before Windows? [John:] Keyboard before Windows. [Simon:] Oh Setver that's the thing that make it pretend to not be the [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] version that it is. I've got one of those. [John:] It, and the other thing is that I, I presume that it would h it would have a file [Simon:] Mm. [John:] it would have a list of, and it would sort of say that sort of command Dot Com,vers version three or something. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Doesn't, it holds it all, it holds it in its, in itself [Simon:] Mm. [John:] and saves itself again. [Simon:] Ah. [John:] And I though oops, I don't like playing with this [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I knacker it up I can't be a different version. [Simon:] Mm I haven't got that, and of course I couldn't run your version of setver unless I had setver cos it would say [LAUGHTER] incorrect DOS version []. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Incorrect Setver [] [Simon:] Actually that would, that would be interesting to see, that, erm [John:] No, I think I'll try. Set Setver isn't it? [Simon:] Well you could yeah I guess you I er mean it's something they had to write into the program to check the version number isn't it? [John:] Yeah [Simon:] [whispering] [] [John:] So Smart Drive remmed let it put one in when it doesn't find one. Okay, now all these device highs should be alright. [Simon:] Yeah. Oh Ram Drive Dot Sys oh that's remmed, okay, so there's no [John:] Okay. [Simon:] problem. Yeah. Share should be okay. [John:] Now, Share [Simon:] you don't need Share do you, cos you've got Five Point O. [John:] I read somewhere, at some stage, some problem that's got rid of by using Share. We'll take it out before it objects to it I think. [Simon:] I mean it's basically in, if it's, if in, the main reason that people brought Share in for the large media restriction of pre [John:] Yeah [Simon:] DOS Four, isn't it? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Erm, cos otherwise it's er it's only if you have multiple applications running. Which I guess theoretically you can do under Windows but presumably it has its own locking mechanism. [John:] And that should handle it. Okay. [Simon:] Yeah. Okay, so goodbye to that. [John:] So, Alt F. to save [Simon:] autoexec [John:] ...... I do have to type it again. [Simon:] [yawn] [John:] Because it's a program and you can't just have three. You could use your DOS key... Edit. [Simon:] so far so good.... [John:] ... Right, MyMouse is remmed out cos I don't want I don't erm I, I choose when I start, which mouse driver I start on one, one of the mouse port and one of the serial erm times. [Simon:] Two Why did you do that? [John:] Well one of them is this. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] [LAUGHTER] If you've ever used one of these you'll know why I use the other one. [Simon:] Oh I see. [John:] And that erm probably, possibly could run it off there as a P S Two mouse but erm I've heard [Simon:] That's intelligent [John:] that Amstrad mice are sort [Simon:] Mm. [John:] of electrically incompatible. [Simon:] Ooh, erm, yeah [John:] Erm and I thought I don't want the risk of blowing. [Simon:] I've, I've fried a mouse and a port doing that. [John:] Yeah so I thought well. Right [Simon:] you fool I thought [John:] what are we looking for then, down here? [Simon:] Stuff basically, just anything. [John:] Path. [Simon:] There's Keyboard Com again. [John:] Well this is what DOS Five for. [Simon:] So you've bo you've got it on the, on the erm config sys and on the autoexec [John:] And on the autoexec, yeah. [Simon:] That can't be right, can it? [John:] No. [Simon:] Well I guess [John:] yeah. Mode, mode check. There's a big menu here for mouse type,. [Simon:] What is that? Is that [John:] Er rem, let's get rid of that. [Simon:] What is Mirror? [John:] Oh it's remmed out. Sorry? [Simon:] What is Mirror? [John:] Erm you know that delete undelete [Simon:] Right. [John:] erm [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] keeps a file of what's gone [Simon:] Yeah [John:] and how to get it back. [Simon:] Yeah, yeah. That's a good sor that is it. It's, presumably it's a T S R is it? [John:] Yeah. Er rem. [Simon:] What does that call do. Oh you're gonna anyway [John:] Oh that, that's erm that gives me date and time. In great big, something is resetting my clock. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] It's leaving the time [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] But it's resetting the date. [Simon:] Shit. [John:] And erm I'm using me diary for my students and wham straight into it [Simon:] Mm. [John:] and start s set an appointment for [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Hang on, what year? This shouldn't be a Tuesday, where are we? Whoops. [Simon:] Oh no. [John:] So I've just, I'm run I, I'm running [Simon:] No, that's terrible [John:] my important things now I'm running with a batch file. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And wel when it, when it boots up it shows that, and save that [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] nothing else not nothing needs [Simon:] Yeah, that's right [John:] changing does it? [Simon:] No, no, that's fine. [John:] Right, so we'll just exit. [Simon:] Oh save anyway in case you did change something and you forgot it. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Being redundant. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right, meanwhile, back at the setup. [Simon:] Back at the boring old setup program unless you bloody setup Dot I N F file again. I got so sick of looking at that.... I also got so sick at waiting for the bits that happen after you get through setup [John:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] There's more []? [Simon:] Oh God yeah. It sits there all day. Decompressing [John:] Many many many disks full. Yeah. [Simon:] them. [John:] Right... Er... keyboard getting sweaty. [Simon:] I, I have a superstitious belief [John:] Mm. [Simon:] that if you're working on a floppy drive it's still better to have your log drive as a hard drive. [John:] Yeah I, I [Simon:] Presumably crea creating temporary files and things like [John:] Yeah, [Simon:] that. [John:] yeah, yeah. But a lot of these installs want you to log onto the A [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] drive and then run it from there. [Simon:] Oh it's not rebooted. Oh that's easily done. [John:] What a silly sausage, you will take that out before we reboot. [Simon:] That's a good idea. [John:] I've n I've been using the other keyboard all on the X T and I can't get used to this one yet. I'm still going over here for the function keys. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER]... I wonder what happens if I optimize that super store host partition. Well maybe I'll find out one day. Wendy assured my she's got backups of everything. [John:] That looks very very impressive by the way, that. [Simon:] It is. It's a shame I never got [John:] Does your monitor colour? [Simon:] No. It erm I think the card does actually. Er I think it's a colour card. [John:] That's nice, if you want, oh you'll probably want to keep it won't you? I was thinking that if you do want to get a colour one at some time [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Brenda is looking for a computer at the moment. [Simon:] Oh, right. [John:] Erm, so you might be able to sell her a monitor. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Or you might not I mean might not, you might not want [Simon:] Then again I'm not sure I can afford a colour one, cos it's a couple hundred quid really. Well I've seen 'em for a hundred now actually, a hundred quid. [John:] There are C G A ones about. [Simon:] one thing you've got to watch out for apar I go I remember I, I was thinking about getting colour monitors for work and I read lots of articles about them [John:] Mm. [Simon:] and the cheap ones have sort of fuzzy dot resolution and [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] they're actually more [John:] What do you think of that one? [Simon:] trouble than they're worth. I think that's good. [John:] I think that's very good. Especially especially I was looking at the C G A monitor all night, [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] every letter composed of dots that seem to be six inches apart. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Yeah. No, I think that's very comfortable, especially in that, that blue and, whatever that is, configuration. Blue and other blue I guess. [John:] Oh.... It's a bit easier to read isn't it?... [Simon:] So, ooh hang on hang on, you're not logged into A cos you haven't put the disk in. You want to abort at that point, oh yeah retry'll do. [John:] no we won't forget about the A colon cos it's going to take it out of C drive first.... [Simon:] So does Sue use WordPerfect on this machine? [John:] Yeah, erm she's go she's quite good at it actually. R Good, good typist, she's learning the, the limitations. I mean what does Wendy think of it? [Simon:] Wendy likes it. I, I [John:] I I would not, I genuinely would [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] not give it room on the disk [Simon:] Yeah. That, that's always been my attitude and [John:] I think it stinks. [Simon:] and that's always been my attitude and Wendy has slowly [John:] Microsoft Works [Simon:] Yeah, Wendy's convinced me that, that if you're a power user, which she is [John:] Yeah! [Simon:] you could do a lot with it [John:] If you're a power user you can afford Microsoft Word, or AmiPro or something decent. Wordwriter [Simon:] all that stuff [John:] I mean I know it'll do it, [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] it'll do everything I mean D Base and all the other things [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] will do it, [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] but if you were to spend five years learning weird codes [Simon:] [moan] It's not that bad I mean [John:] Ah bu it's, I mean thing about WordPerfect is you [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] do everything twice. You say erm you want to go into sort of C colon my D I R [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] right and it says, and do you really want to do it? Yeah, you press enter again [Simon:] It wants you to press enter again by the way. [John:] What! [Simon:] You do everything twice in this setup program. [John:] [sucks teeth] [reading] To learn more about Windows press F one, to set it up press enter []. Ping. [Simon:] Oh, you're not going to the help are you? Right, here you go [John:] No I pressed enter [Simon:] this is express or custom. This is where it's says do you know what you're talking about? [John:] I am. Which would you recommend? [Simon:] Er, I only used custom because [John:] Which do you [Simon:] I was, I was hybridizing it with D R DOS. [John:] Aha. [Simon:] Erm, so I'd go for express. [John:] This is a funny machine, the Amstrad [Simon:] Ah. [John:] so I would go for the recommended and hope by this version of Windows it knows about Amstrads and will sort it out. Because [Simon:] Mm. [John:] D R DOS, er sorry M S DOS Five did, I thought I was going to have a lot of trouble, and it didn't. It knew about Amstrads, [Simon:] Mm. [John:] knew about funny way of handling the A Twenty line and voomf! [Simon:] Great, okay, we'll hav let's have a go at express. Ah there is something about er an A Twenty handler for Windows. Something [John:] Mm. [Simon:] called Win A Twenty in fact. [John:] There is, I've [Simon:] Er [John:] got one. Er [Simon:] It's a device driver that it loads. So yeah go for express, you can always try custom later. [John:] Press enter. [mimics sound of hard drive access]... [Simon:] I, I, I don't know how to use WordPerfect and I hate, I occasionally have to. We get some disks from the States once a month, that are in WordPerfect [John:] Yeah [Simon:] and I have to translate them into DOS, and it's a hassle and I don't like. But Wendy, you know, can do a hell of a lot with it. [John:] I mean that is so simple to do and such a, so much better than the WordPerfect setup which [Simon:] Mm. [John:] last night on the X T [Simon:] Mm. [John:] ten minutes of disk fifteen minutes of disk maybe. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I remember thinking, come on you're having me on. You're [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] just going to sit, see how long I'll sit and wait here and [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] still think you're doing something. Cos [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I'll [Simon:] that's the installation program not the [John:] Yeah,o on this erm this was the server [Simon:] Mm. [John:] so, every now and again it was sort of, it would sort of flash and say the server was being accessed and sort of brrp [exclamation] it was gone. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] And then there'd be a five, ten, fifteen minute wait and nothing. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Nothing happened with the [Simon:] No, Five Point One's probably not written with the X T in mind. [John:] No. I don't think so. [Simon:] But, yes I mean it's very good to have this kind of feedback system when you're doing a time consuming operation. [John:] Yes and you can look at it and say, okay, we've go time to go and make a cup of coffee, or oh, this is going well. [Simon:] Actually it looks like we've got time to make a cup a coffee. [John:] by the time we've calculated what's th the remaining sixty five percent of [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] which is now s down to sixty. Optimization complete. [Simon:] Well that's the second time I've done that tonight, so it, the algorithm th the os optimization algorithm doesn't always get it right first time. Or doesn't, you know, exhaustively optimize it on the first pass, all the time. [John:] Beep. What! [Simon:] Sometimes it does [John:] Insert disk labelled, okay. Now while it's there I'm going to move this. I won't pinch any of [Simon:] you can't can't. [John:] I won't pinch any of your [Simon:] Well at least take the floppy out before you move it. [John:] Why? Cos the [Simon:] cos the heads are very nearly in contact with that, and they'll [John:] Okay. [Simon:] bounce on it. [John:] Right, can hang on to that for me? [Simon:] Yeah sure [LAUGHTER] [John:] Without pressing too many keys. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Oh [John:] Control del. [Simon:] This is quite a nice keyboard, it's a, yeah I like it. [John:] It's [mimicking] very nice [] I think. It's quite wonderful. [Simon:] Mm.... And four megabytes, cor blimey. [John:] Cor blimey, it's no good that four megabytes. You wanna buy it then? You want to buy four megabytes. I c i it's about four about hundred and eighty quid to update to sixteen megabytes, [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] which is the only update I can do, cos they're in banks of four. [Simon:] Right, so you've got to swap them all out. [John:] So I've got to take the four one megs out and put four four megs in. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And some people do sort of Amstrad kits and [Simon:] Four hundred and eighty quid! Wow. [John:] and I think for four hundred and eighty quid I could get a very nice real computer. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Mm. [John:] No, it is very nice, it was very good when I first got it. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] It's just like anything else, once you've got it there are [Simon:] As soon as you buy it it's obsolete, because it's a computer. [John:] That's it. That's it. So one's done. Number seven, number two. [Simon:] , I thought it came on seven disks not six.... [John:] Right. [Simon:] Ooh, what will happen? [John:] The second disk in. I bet it reads. [Simon:] The really critical phase is on about disk three [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] it, it starts installing itself under Windows. [LAUGHTER] [John:] As long [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] as long as it's not like WordPerfect's critical stage [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] which is when you've been there for a for genuinely over an hour and a half. It says now we're going to set up your printer drivers and you'll have WordPerfect going, and it goes [exclamation] [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] But yeah, when it, when it, when it starts in when it starts installing itself under Windows is when it first really goes splat and you know [John:] Oh [Simon:] it'll just say... privileged instruction violation, [John:] Hey this is g this is going well [Simon:] stuff you. [John:] I don't think there is time for [Simon:] No. [John:] for coffee on this.... Go on, ask for disk three next. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] and get disk three whether you ask for it or not [] [Simon:] [yawn] [John:] Ah,thi this is very helpful. Sort of just having someone being there cos otherwise I'd, I'd spend a you know [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] two days reading the manual before I'd dare [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] do it. [Simon:] It's a fairly good [John:] It's a [Simon:] installation program. It's just [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] I had a lot of hassle cos I was mixing it up with D R DOS. [John:] Mm. I think [Simon:] And also I took shortcuts which I shouldn't have taken. [John:] any of the Microsoft installations try at being [Simon:] Mm. [John:] very very helpful, and you can see what's going on and grrr! [Simon:] Whoo! Stepping, stepping, machine guns ready to go. [quoting queen song]... Presumably that er, that noise i indicates that it's crossing cylinder boundaries a lot. On its own particular [John:] Ooh we've got a [Simon:] Ooh ooh it's booted with a

[Kay:] I'd like to welcome you all, and thank you very much for coming on time.... This is our fifth session... and it's The Gifts of the Spirit.... If we could just pray together.... [praying] God you are mother and father to us all. Be with us as we pray. Pour out your spirit upon your people, and grant us a new vision of your glory, a new experience of your power, a new faithfulness to your word, a new consecration to your service, that your love may grow among us, and your kingdom come. Through Christ, our Lord, amen [].... If you remember at the last two sessions we've talked about signs and symbols.... And particularly over the last session we talked about the symbolic actions that make up... the actual point of confirmation, the confirming of the sacrament, of the sacrament of confirmation.... And you had some... work to do at home... on that.... It was the Can You Remember?... section... and there were some missing words to fill in.... So if we could just check that we've all got this right. [reading] God speaks to us in many ways.... In the beauty of a sunset or a flower... in the power of the sea... in the kindness of people we know. God also speaks to us in the seven sacraments... the special symbols of God's love and care.... And on the day of confirmation I will be confirmed by the bishop. The special symbol of confirmation has four parts. And they are the laying on of hands, the anointing with the oil of Chrism, the signing with the cross... the words, be sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit. And when the bishop says the words, you reply Amen [].... And it's very important... to finish off with amen... and to actually do it in a very convincing way. If the bishop can't hear you or if you forget to say it, he will ask you... you are saying yes... to all... that the spirit will give you?... What we want to do now... is to actually erm do a er a guided scripture meditation with you. I don't know whether any of you have ever prayed in this way before... but it is a silent way of praying.... And I will actually... draw or paint a word picture for you to put you in the scene.... What I want to make sure first of all is that erm you understand what has gone on before the scene that we actually want to... find ourselves in.... And we're actually going to think about the evening of Good Friday. So we've actually had... Maundy Thursday and the last supper.... Jesus has been through the agony in the garden... he's been arrested... he's been abandoned by his apostles... he's been through a trial... and he has actually been through the crucifixion... and he's been buried in the tomb.... So I'll close the curtains... and the room... now will be quite dark.... I just want to you to get yourselves comfortable... during this time.... We have to be silent, we have to be still.... At the end of the meditation, towards the end of the meditation, I'll ask you three questions... and I'll leave some time... of silence between each question.... And I want you to think about the question that I ask you... but I don't want you to speak out the answers.... If you can just close your eyes... and picture the upper room.... This is the same room where Jesus a few hours earlier had celebrated the last supper.... The room is quite dark.... There are one or two little oil lamps... which are flickering.... But even in the gloom you can make out the apostles' faces.... Have a look at them.... They look tired and worn out.... They talk quietly amongst themselves... sometimes finding it hard to speak.... Some of them are near to tears.... There's a sudden noise outside in the street.... Immediately they stop talking and look anxiously at the door.... Very quietly one gets up and goes noiselessly to check the bolt's on the door.... Everyone is very tense.... Can you imagine... what they are feeling?... What are they remembering?... What are they saying?... If you'd like to open your eyes... and if you would like to... list your response on a piece of paper for me.... The questions I asked were... are... what are they feeling?... What are they remembering?... And what are they saying?... For the feelings... you've... used words like frightened... nervous... worried... sad... anxious... curious... shocked... numb... guilty... confused.... What are they remembering?... You've used words like death... last supper... good times... sad times, the past couple of days... all that Jesus had said and done... their betrayal... their cowardice.... And what are they saying?... They're asking what the noise could be... who it could be... were the guards coming for them?... They're asking each other did they know what was going to happen?... How long were they going to be there?... Would Jesus actually be raised from the dead?... All of these things are pretty negative.... They were feeling lost and all alone.... I'd really like to... erm tell you the brief story of the events which lead on from Good Friday to Pentecost Day.... [reading] On the night of Good Friday, the apostles must have felt a painful sense of loss.... It was not just that they had lost a friend through death, but the death that Jesus had suffered was long and cruel, and above all it was unjust. The apostles had hoped that Jesus would have been the one to set the people free. Only a week earlier on Palm Sunday, it seemed possible that Jesus could have led a rebellion against the hated Romans. Much as they admired him and loved him, he seemed to have let them down. But they too had let him down. One of their friends, Judas, had betrayed him. But then hadn't they all? Only John had had the courage to stay close to Jesus throughout the terrible events of Thursday night and Friday. Perhaps none felt it more than Peter, who boasted that he would never leave Jesus. Friday night, Saturday and Sunday... were a nightmare. They were terrified that the Jewish authorities would come for them and that they would suffer the same fate as Jesus. On Sunday morning their confusion and bewilderment increased. Some of the women who were followers of Jesus had returned from the tomb where Jesus had been buried, saying that it was empty, that they had been told in a vision that Jesus had risen from the dead. On Sunday evening nearly all the apostles were together in the upper room where Jesus appeared to them.... Now they knew that the women had been right, Jesus had indeed risen from the dead. During the next forty days Jesus often appeared to his friends. He reminded them of all the things that he'd said and done and he prepared them for their mission in the world. Forty days after the resurrection, Jesus took his friends to a hill top [yawn] outside Jerusalem. This was the last time they saw him. He gave them his last instructions, and then he was taken from their sight [].... I have an exercise for you... now. It's called a word match.... And there are twenty four words... at the bottom of the page... and we have Good Friday, we have Easter Day and we have Ascension Day. And there are eight words... that need to be fitted in... to each day. Eight words that you think... would be most suitably des that would most suitably describe... the feelings of the apostles on Good Friday, on Easter Day, and on Ascension Day.... If you can just work spend the next couple of minutes working through that.... You can work on your own or you can work in pairs.... Right let's see what we have for Good Friday.... We have end... sorrow, death, shame, guilt, despair, confusion, gloom. For Easter Day... we have joy, amazement, life, beginning, waiting, resurrection, hope, and wonder. And for the Ascension Day we have leaving, promise, command, glory, peace, question, waiting, expectation.... We see there with Good Friday... all the words are, they're negative... words aren't they?... Whereas Easter Day and Ascension Day, the words seem full of hope... for the future. New life.... Okay, if we want to finish there and erm have a short break.... You can have a drink and erm a biscuit. And during the second half, Jim will lead the second half. And in that we're actually going to look at erm... the actual... what Jesus promised with erm... with the coming of the Holy Spirit, and what the Holy Spirit can actually do for us. [tape change] [Jim:] It's erm... now we're doing this you know so that the Holy Spirit, as you er remember is the... third person... in the trinity that we call God.... Erm... and we're looking at his role in, and I use the word advisedly, his erm... in our lives.... And er again just to... you know recall some of that to you know the... some of the ways that we think about that will be developed in this section. You know some of the ways we think about the Holy Spirit... and... some of the ways in which the Holy Spirit helps us. It's more than help actually, it's an empowering. Er what we can do with the Holy Spirit... is more than we can do on our own. What we can do with the Holy Spirit is something that we cannot do on our own. And er, you know just briefly, that's what this... er section is about. Er we've got this thing called Command and Promise haven't we? [Kay:] Mhm. [Jim:] Right.... [Kay:] Do you want to give them out then Peter while I'm... [papers being passed]... [Jim:] In order to [cough] fill this in, this little... er... section... you have to look at the er the chapter that they recommend you, er Saint Matthew's Gospel chapter twenty eight. [Kay:] Would you, you two share? Okay. [speaker003:] Right. [Kay:] Twenty eight, right to the very end of Matthew's Gospel. [Jim:] You have to read that in order to er [Kay:] Okay Peter if you, there and on to the next page right to the end.... Same for y for you, if you... if you... want to take that for yourself, twenty eight, on to the next page.... [whispering] Twenty eight [].... [Jim:] Erm.... Have you read it? Okay. You'll, you'll have noticed that er in reading that that it's, it's the part er on er Zeffirelli's erm Jesus of Nazareth that erm... that is actually... what we saw on the film is actually what's written here.... Er and these, these little exercises er are meant to give you erm... they're memory aids really, they're not meant to be homework, they're simply so as er you know like if you, you want to remember er a difficult name you can sometimes do a funny thing with it you know to, to remember it you know. Well the these exercises are erm designed so as that you will remember. So you've seen the film, you look at the er the scripture and now you should er fill that Command and Promise in. Erm it says... er [reading] before Jesus ascended in to heaven, He gave a final command... which was? Look at Matthew's Gospel []. And the command is in four parts... erm and you're expected to write in what those four parts are. Er so can you remember from what you've just read what the, what the command... is?... Anybody er wants to shout, that will help all of [LAUGHTER] us [].... Right, good. Can you read it out, the bit that you feel that's er... think you're, you've got the most difficult one there. I think you've er you know. That's right, that's the first part of the command. Er now these, you know you can actually write that in, go on, if you want. That, that's the top one. Erm... you know perhaps in, in years to come you're looking over this work just to, to check on it, you the the these'll, these'll be a help to you.... [speaker003:] ... [Jim:] Any offers on the er the last er... three parts of that?... Last three parts of the erm... the command. Well we have [reading] Go to Galilee [], and now we're looking at er... erm at er at the other parts of that command. Yes, go on.... Right, Tara's... helped us there by, they're the last three parts of the command. [reading] Go therefore, make disciples of all nations []. [Kay:] You'll find them at the very end... of, of... chapter twenty eight. You should find it it's actually written in the last sort of four, five lines there. [Jim:] Yeah that's it, that's the part there.... [reading] Go therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [].... That's the first part. [reading] Teach them to observe all the commands I give you [].... Tara's also read the, the promise that comes in the last of that section. [reading] Jesus also made a great promise, what was it? []... What was it Tara? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [reading] And I will be with you always []. [Jim:] That's right. And in my translation here it's got [reading] And know that I am with you always, yes to the end of time [].... You could always fill this in at a later date, there's [Kay:] [whispering] Aha []. [Jim:] no need to hurry it if you're rushing it too much. It's important just to know where it is, that's all.... Erm to save you er searching through... your Bible, I think I'll read this next bit out.... [reading] Much earlier at the last supper Jesus had promised that when he returned to God, he would ask for a gift to be sent to his friends []. In John chapter fourteen... it tells us what that gift is.... [Kay:] Don't worry about finding it. [Jim:] No it's, it might, might be in here... later on you know.... [reading] I shall ask the Father and He will give you another advocate to be with you forever. That spirit of truth whom the world can never receive since it neither sees, know or nor knows Him. But you know Him because He is with you, He is in you.... I will not leave you orphans []. He says.... Okay so that's that particular part.... So just to recap again... we have to try and link... Ascension Day to Pentecost.... Because all of these ha all of these events are happening... fairly rapidly.... And the whole thing is accomplished within fifty days.... After the first meeting with Jesus... in the garden, Easter Sunday, there comes a period of forty days. And in that time Jesus appears to... er people who will be what he calls his witnesses. People who will say to other people I know Jesus... I know that he loves us, I know that he forgives us, I know that he is risen from the dead, and... that... the good news is that we will also rise from our own deaths. The big fear that all humankind has is that when you die, that's the end of it. Jesus' resurrection means that we will not die, not in the sense of eternal death. We will move through a period now that we call death, but we will not die in the sense of annihilation. Jesus' death and resurrection means exactly that.... So let's just er to put it in context again, we saw that on the day of the ascension Jesus instructed his friends to go on proclaiming the good news throughout the world... to help others become disciples, and bring to them, and bring them to membership of the church through baptism.... Jesus knew... however, that before they would be ready to undertake this work... they needed power, they needed a special power. The apostles didn't... have the understanding or the courage to do this by themselves.... When Jesus had returned to his Father the apostles did as he had told them and returned to the city. Once more they felt lost and afraid. When Jesus, when, while Jesus had been with them they had had the confidence. Now they were not sure what to do. For ten days they hid in the upper room.... Then on Pentecost Sunday, Pentecost Day, ten days after the Ascension and fifty days after then resurrection, the apostles had an experience which not only changed them but changed the whole history of the world.... You see man from the very beginning, man and woman has been afraid.... And the thing, the biggest thing that we've been afraid of is death... and the things that lead to death like sickness... and like infirmity... like weakness. These are the things that make us afraid, and we build ourselves secure places so as that we can't or don't have any need to be afraid. What Jesus is saying is, you don't have to be afraid of death any more. I've, I've been through death and I've conquered death.... Pentecost.... You see it's one thing for Jesus to say that... it's another for us to believe it and accept it. I mean I can tell you that there's water in the pipe if you're thirsty, but you need to go to the pipe with a glass and turn the tap on in order to er not to be thirsty any more, in order to receive the water. There is something you have to do in order to receive the gift. Even if it's only stretching out your hand to receive the gift, it's something yo you... all of us have to do. Er but in order to stretch out our hands, in order to turn the tap on... er sometimes that takes courage... er because s people might be laughing at us. They'll say, oh there's no water in that tap, you know. And you say, well there is, I know there is. And er sometimes it takes a bit of courage to walk over to the tap when everybody's saying there'll be no water, and for you to turn that tap on. Of course when everybody finds that there is water, there's all sorts of excuses then. Oh yeah, somebody must have been there, you must have put it in yourself, you must have done. People give you that sort of excuse.... Er right.... Er can I read just through this Pentecost er with you.... Erm [reading] When Pentecost Day came around... they had all met in one room []. Notice there immediately, when we're frightened we like to have other people around us. [LAUGHTER] We don't like to be on our own []. It's harder to be frightened on your own. [reading] They'd all met in one room. When suddenly they heard what sounded like a powerful wind from heaven, the noise of which filled the entire house in which they were sitting. And something appeared to them which seemed like tongues of fire. These separated and came to rest on the head of each of them. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in foreign tongues as the Spirit gave them the gift of speech. Now there were devout men living in Jerusalem from every nation under heaven, and at this sound they all assembled []. Evidently the sound that has been heard in the upper room is not just in the upper room but it's... er it's... audible within the whole district. These guys come to the sound. [reading] Each one bewildered to hear men speaking in his own language. They were amazed and astonished. Surely, they said, all these men speaking are Galileans. How does it happen that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes, Aramites, people from Mesopotamia, Judaens, Capodoceans and Asian, Phrygia and, Egypt, and the parts of Libya around Syrene, as well as visitors from Rome, Jews and Proselytes alike, Cretans and Arabs. We hear them preaching in our own language about the marvels of God. Everyone was amazed and unable to explain it, and they asked one another what it all meant [].... Can you imagine that, you know just using your imagination again to slip back to those... er... these things hadn't been experienced. You know I mean it's difficult to... erm to grasp. It's rather like you know... you know one remembers the feeding of the five thousand. these were extraordinary occurrences, they weren't... you know things that were daily available.... But... for our... need at this moment, we have to look at what the Holy Spirit is doing. So the Holy Spirit and the symbol that was er found most useful by the Holy Spirit, was fire. Just as you look at the candle flame there burning, erm... it's a symbol. I mean it's actually giving light out, but er there's one over there if anybody [Kay:] Yeah. [Jim:] can't see it. The er... it's actually giving light out, but if you were to try and grasp that light in your hand, you couldn't. You know you can't feel, you can't grab hold of light in your hand. And you can't actually grab hold of wind er in your hand either. You know I mean if you try... and grab the wind all you you're left with is a clenched fist.... But those symbols of fire and of wind are useful because... when we say God is in us, when we say the Holy Spirit is in us, we can't actually grab anything and say... you know we can't actually put it on a video and say, that little bit to the right of my heart is the Holy [LAUGHTER] Spirit. You can't do that []. The Holy Spirit is erm... is not visible in, in the same way that wind isn't visible. And yet... the, to say that the wind doesn't exist because you can't see it... would be erm... would be pretty dangerous if you were standing on a cliff and saying there's no wind around here, and there's a howling gale [LAUGHTER] blowing you off [] [LAUGHTER] and into the water. Erm so some of the things that we can look at with wind for example of the er... you know the power and the... the destructive nature of wind, the cooling nature of wind, the refreshing... nature of wind, the disturbing nature of wind. Erm you know when you're th we were just talking about the upper room, and erm and the great wind that was noise that was felt. There aren't many people who aren't afraid when there's a lot of wind about. Most people on a very windy day, and we had a couple you know in the winter there didn't we, and storms wind storms, and there aren't many people who say, you know in the middle of that storm, oh I feel quite comfortable, I'm quite happy with this. You know I mean you're wondering whether it's going to blow the chimney pot off or all sorts of things. But having said that, if you're standing... er at the seafront after a hot day or something and there's a cool er breeze coming in off the sea, the same thing... is... er is a pleasing thing. It's hard to define. Fire too is a similar thing. It can be warming or destroying, it can be purifying, life-giving.... It can symbolize enthusiasm, you're on fire with love, you know and er... you know the, the power that's generated by fire. Okay. The... thing that's suggested just to sort of er bring that round to you to you know rather than just have me speaking, is to suggest that er if I start a sentence... er perhaps... you know people could join in with the finish of that sentence, you know. So if I say, the Holy Spirit is the one who gives us.... [LAUGHTER] What would you say? How would you finish that sentence? The Holy Spirit is the one, there's no right answer to this let me say. It can be anything that you feel you know. The Holy Spirit out of all that we've been speaking about and listening to you can give us the end of the sentence. [speaker003:] Hope. [Kay:] Hope. [Jim:] The Holy Spirit is the one who gives us hope. Mega. I mean... this generation needs hope. The Holy Spirit is one who... gives us? [speaker003:] Strength. [Jim:] Strength. Yes, indeed.... The Holy Spirit is one who gives us?... [speaker003:] Comfort. [Jim:] Yes. True. The comforter. Erm... any more? The Holy Spirit is the one who... gives us? [speaker003:] [whispering] Protection. Protection [].... [Jim:] They're some of the things that you can think out and er... work out you know, that's, that's what we've been trying to do. We've got a thing called The Changed Man, er... little handout.... And you're asked to complete this work in pairs if it's easier. working in pairs.... Getting a bit short of time. [Kay:] Yeah I think it might be if you could just actually talk through it really rather than asking them to do it. It might be... as well. [Jim:] Oh right, yes.... Now let me just work through this with you so as er wh... you know it's unfortunate there's such a lot in these things that er [Kay:] Mm. [Jim:] y you tend to run short of time so... [reading] Then Peter stood up with the other eleven apostles and in a loud voice began to speak to the crowd []. This is after Pentecost now. This is after he's filled with the Holy Spirit. [reading] Fellow Jews, and all of you who live in Jerusalem, listen to me and let me tell you what this means. This is what the prophet Job spoke about []. This was a prophet in the old writings of the Jews... and er one of their, one of the people who they looked to for wisdom. And what he said, prophesying about the future, saying what would happen in the future in this case. [reading] I will pour out my spirit on everyone. Your sons and your daughters shall proclaim my message []. The Holy Spirit has been poured out and it's enlivened man. It's rather like... er I had a plant the other day, a marigold, and it had been there for about two weeks and it was a lovely plant, and er I noticed it beginning to droop and I thought, oh well it's finished now, it's in a pot. And then I poured some water on it, and it's lasted a further two weeks. It [LAUGHTER] took on a []... a whole new lease of life. Erm... when the spirit is poured out on us, our life changes too, and from being mortal we become immortal.... [reading] Listen to these words. Jesus of Nazareth was a man whose divine authority was clearly proven to you by all the miracles and wonders which God performed through him. This Jesus you handed over to be crucified, but God raised him from death, setting him free from its power. God has raised this very Jesus from death, and we are all witnesses to this fact. What you see and hear is His gift of the Holy Spirit which He has poured out on us. All the people of Israel... then... are to know for sure that this Jesus, whom you crucified, is the one that, that God has made Lord and Messiah. When the people heard this, they were deeply troubled and said to Peter and the other apostles, what shall we do? Peter said to them, each of you must turn away from sin, and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of his Holy Spirit [].... So we've got column one... and we have the picture of the cock in the background crowing. as if it wasn't bad enough [LAUGHTER] there was [LAUGHTER] there was []... there's the cock crowing in the background, and in column two we have the picture of Peter er smiling and confident, welcoming just like the Spirit that imbues him really.... I think it's fairly... erm... straightforward isn't it? In, in column one we may think er bewildered, fearful... hiding, weak, afraid, are words that might describe Peter's state of mind, his emotions. After the coming of the Holy Spirit we might say that he is strong, sure, courageous, confident, powerful... leader. A changed man.... Just like to, we should have had a little bit of discussion there but we're moving quickly.... In our day and age, can you... think of someone who has been so full of the Spirit that... he's had the courage to... to preach...... even when his own life was at stake?... Someone who's had the courage... who... knowing that what they were saying was upsetting powerful people, still taking that risk and saying what they felt to be true and just?... Can you think of anybody?? [speaker003:] Erm Martin Luther King? [Jim:] Martin Luther King.... Absolutely.... [speaker003:] Romero. [Jim:] Romero. Archbishop Romero, he was a bishop in... El Salvador... and er... he was an archbishop and erm... he was shot because he opposed the people who were in power.... And we can think of other people like... Mother Theresa too, in the face of... so much er you know what people have said to her is, you know, don't you think that er... what you're doing is just a drop in the ocean? You know you've got a million people and you're just looking after a thousand, maybe more. And she has got the courage to look at that million people, which takes courage, and look at the thousand which she is helping and saying, no... love is never wasted. You know it's er it's... it's a mystery force, and what I do for one in some way affects the million. That takes courage, to actually think in those terms.... Okay we'll move on to the... seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. We've got a thing there I think with them on have you? Ah. [Kay:] Oh sorry.... [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] [LAUGHTER] [Kay:] They have now. [Jim:] They have now. [LAUGHTER] Right [].... The dove there is representing the Holy Spirit traditionally and from the dove... are seven channels. [cough] Seven is, in Jewish thought and in Christian thought for that matter, is a perfect number. It's er it's not meant to encompass all of the gifts that the Spirit gives us. Er it's simply meant to say that any gift that the Holy Spirit gives you is... a perfect thing, and it's erm... that seven there... it's erm it's just trying to bring that idea across. Notwithstanding that, there are seven things that we can talk about er when we say gifts of the Spirit. Erm we might say for example er that all of these gifts, you've heard of the word grace?... Er sanctifying grace... natural grace, you know now they're... it's all, it's all help from God but clever thinkers have decided to split them up into various things, just like the way... I mean... for example er there's so many different things made from oil, you know er... like erm... turpentine... er petrol, diesel. It's all oil, plastics. It is in fact all oil, but for trying to understand the thing it's better to try and break it down if we can, and that's what's being done here. So wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit... and that particular thing is to... er help us to judge in the way that God does. Erm... what is the way that God judges?... I think He judges with mercy, you know erm... it's erm... perhaps sometimes when we're asked to be in a situation where we have to give an opinion, then it should be, if we have wisdom... er a merciful erm... balance.... To help us to understand. The gift of understanding is to help us to understand all that God has told us.... Which is a lot isn't it really, once we come down to it, you know we've had a two... solid hours of what God has been trying to teach us today.... Right judgment is to help us to know what to do in difficult situations. These are things that when you're confirmed... you will have the... ability to reach into.... You will have the erm... When you're confirmed there'll be a difference in you... that isn't there now. You will have the ability to turn the tap on. At the moment... in a way, you don't have that ability to turn the tap on. Erm but after you're confirmed, you will have... er... you know the ability to say, yes Lord I want to have wisdom, I want to have right judgment. Courage. The courage of Peter er after his denial is something that was given him by the Holy Spirit. But Peter had to accept it. And Peper Peter had to accept it not just... once you know and then he was a changed man. He was a changed man, but he also, there were times when he failed again, when Peter failed again. And if you read the scriptures, you'll discover those where... er... he, you know er he was with Paul on one occasion, and er he'd been eating with Gentiles and er then some Jews came up who believed that eating with er non-Jews even though they were followers of Jesus was wrong. And er and... and Peter because of his fear of the Jews says, okay I, I won't do that any more, I'll go and, I'll just go and sit with the Jews. And Paul comes up to him and says, you're totally wrong, out of order here Peter, erm you know what, what you know I mean... you're afraid, that's, that's your problem. And er and, and Peter says, you're right, er I was wrong to do that. You know so you have to reach out on a daily basis for these gifts. You know so when you're confirmed, it won't be, okay I'm on the boat now, it will be making use of those gifts, whatever they may be, and they'll be uniquely your own in each one, the mix'll be uni uniquely... you know, to the person, you'll have to make use of it on a daily basis, not just simply, okay I'm on the boat.... Erm... I think that's about it really. [Kay:] Okay. [Jim:] We can er... [Kay:] Right. I'm sure that we'll, we'll... touch on those again... To actually finish erm... To actually finish with erm our prayer.... [music in background] Just put your papers down for... a couple of minutes... please.... Jesus said... I shall ask the Father and He will give you another advocate to be with you for ever.... Let's pray in the silence of our hearts that God will send the Holy Spirit to fill us with promised gifts. Perhaps there is one gift you feel you need very specially.... Without getting your papers out, can you remember... erm finish with.... [praying] Day by day... [speaker003:] [praying] These things I pray. To see you more clearly, to love you more dearly, to follow you more nearly. [Kay:] May God bless us and keep us. May God send us His Holy Spirit and make us courageous followers of Jesus Christ our Lord []. [speaker003:] Amen [].... [Kay:] Thank you. There's just one more... handout that I need er to give you.... If you fill this in... at home.... Erm... have you all got the date when we're meeting again?... Yes. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Kay:] Can you all remember?... [speaker003:] ... [Kay:] Now I'm not sure whether it's [speaker003:] Saturday. [Kay:] Twenty first? Yeah.... Yes.... So there's two Sundays off.... Right.... There's Easter Sunday and the Sunday after that because some of you may well be off on holiday. So we're meeting back here on the twenty fifth of April at two thirty. Okay. Erm... we've also, there's also a bit of homework in there, do you remember that was given out erm one of the early sessions, and you will be expected to have erm thought quite a lot about that and to have worked through that. If I could also ask those of you who haven't decided on a confirmation name, I think really by the time we meet again... you should. So I mean I won't take them now if you have thought erm... and if y if you have er decided on a name I won't... erm... make a note of it now, erm but if you can all remember that that we definitely need the confirmation names sorted out. Also I do need the name of your sponsor and their address... and also I would like to see if possible by then any erm baptismal certificates that we haven't... seen. Have you got a got a problem with it or? okay. Erm the problem being that if, if erm if it is from another parish erm the priests in that parish can really be very slow in erm supplying you with erm a copy of it. Erm so if erm she doesn't leave it any later than Monday, if she gets in touch with the parish priests would be very grateful. Erm we'll talk some more too about the away day... at the next session. Erm really what er I wanted to do was erm to sort out the, the person who is actually going to the Chrism mass.... Erm so... Catherine you said you didn't think you'd go, you could go. [speaker003:] I can't. [Kay:] And Kate you can't go. Can you go Fay? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Kay:] So we've got Fay. And you're, you don't think that [speaker003:] I'm I'm not sure. [Kay:] So... [speaker003:] I'll... find out for next week. [Kay:] No. That's no good because the mass is on Thursday. It's Thursday [speaker003:] [whispering] Which Thursday []? [Kay:] this Thursday coming. Are you around or did you say you thought you were going away? [speaker003:] I thought, we are going away... to Wales. [Kay:] You don't know when? [speaker003:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Kay:] Right. Ben what about you? [speaker003:] Er I'm not sure. [Kay:] You're not sure, so you haven't... right okay. And what about you Tara? [speaker003:] I'm going, I am going away. [Kay:] So you're going away. So Fay it looks as though it's down to you. Alright, so would you like to do that for us? I explained quite... quite well I think didn't I on erm... Friday when I saw you, what was involved. Erm if I just give your name to Liz she'll, she'll probably get in touch with your mum. Erm but she may well pick you up about eleven o'clock. starts at half eleven, alright Fay? And then you will be coming to evening mass won't you? Because we'll need you to... process. Erm... so you're definitely away? Are you, are you definitely away Catherine or are you, is it just the day that you're going out? Will you get mass? [speaker003:] Yeah I, I don't know. [Kay:] I'll get in touch, I'll give her a ring, because we actually, we were looking erm out of the twelve of you altogether we were looking for six of you to actually have your feet washed on Maundy Thursday evening at the, at the, the mass at the service on Maundy Thursday evening. What happens is o you know, you know that erm... twelve people have their feet washed er during that erm service, and erm what we wanted was six confirmation ca er candidates to actually have their feet washed on the sanctuary erm by Father and then to ask those six to then go down into the congregation and wash the feet of one other person each making twelve altogether. Really sort of as a sign of service erm to, to community. Erm it doesn't look really as though out of, certainly out of this six that we're going to get three. But you may be around mightn't you?... And you may be around [speaker003:] Yeah. [Kay:] Peter anyway. Erm are you around on... [Jim:] may be around. [LAUGHTER] [Kay:] that? Right. And Tara you're, when are you going away? [speaker003:] Well we're going away erm on the Friday morning. [Kay:] Ah right okay. Well [speaker003:] We might be able to come to the mass but I'm not sure. [Kay:] Alright I'll, I'll, I think it's probably better if, but Kate you're away definitely. Okay. Well I'll, I'll give your parents a ring then. It's probably you know better me to do that and make certain erm... But if, if, if you were here, would anybody be prepared to do that?... To actually have their feet washed and then go down and wash somebody else's?... It's nothing to be bothered about really you know it... it's a good thing to do. [Jim:] It's only a, it's only a token. [Kay:] Yes it's not erm you do have to sort of take your sock and shoe off, but only of one foot. And you'll just have a, some water you know... poured on top and then you'll have a towel to wipe your feet. You won't be involved in that Fay really cos you'll be part of the erm procession with the oils you see.... But erm what we would like is for any of you who are actually here at that time to attend that mass and to be involved in some way, to do some sort of erm service.... So okay. Think about it anyway, and I'll try and get in touch with your mums and dads erm... [Jim:] It's not because we can't get anybody else, [LAUGHTER] it's because we want to involve you []. But er [Kay:] Yes it is. Be be because you know it, it really is, it's erm... er... it is sort of really we see it as sort of part of the confirmation programme really and your involvement in it, and it's all sort of quite erm... special to confirmation so... it would be nice if you could be involved. Alright. But I'll

[Joyce:] You were saying that th the, the trainers pay for all these horse walks and maintain them? [speaker002:] Your [Joyce:] Erm... What do they [speaker002:] heath fees, there's heath fees, and there's all, all you have to pay for the heath fees and all, you know. [Joyce:] Hmm [speaker002:] Oh, yes. [Joyce:] Was that for training? [speaker002:] Yeah. Training was very very dear today, I dunno what it is now... it was very very dear... to train 'em. To own an animal you wanna be a millionaire you see. Well, you want a lot of money, don't ya? [Joyce:] To do it well. [speaker002:] Well, you know what it is buying one yourself. You gotta feed it properly [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] Cost you a fortune, wouldn't it? [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] Th th then, there the field, if you got a field to turn it out in, provide hay ever day, buy tons of hay for it, that's alright. You don't want it to have a lot of corn. You only want corn when you're working them. When you're hunting them and doing things like that. But hay suits any animal. But you that you can. [Joyce:] Mm. Going back to the war time, the Second World War, you said that racing wasn't considered to be an agricultural industry. Breeding of horses was, [speaker002:] Yeah [Joyce:] but not racing. So what, how did the racing industry get on during the war. How did they manage? [speaker002:] Well, they had to, they only raced at Newmarket. All through the war, they raced at Newmarket see fetched it all to one meeting, so that they didn't have to travel about. See, the animal didn't have to travel about so and most of the trainers come here, you see. Oh it was very good in the war time, cos there was only just I can't tell you now. I could tell you offhand, if I'd known how, where the race was or there's not many places. but all, all my races was run at Newmarket. Some was run somewhere else, but I couldn't tell you where now, not offhand. But all the races was run at Newmarket or Newmarket Heath. All everything. That were all, all cos of the war, see? [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] And, all run here, everything was run here, and animals, animals that won here, well er well I think they put them down as better animals than animals that raced before the war, you know, cos they had to do such a lot in a short time. You see, because all the Air Force had all the heath, they didn't have a lot of heath to train horses on, you know, then. You only had little bits, they claimed Waterhall for, for farming. We had to had to plough that up, and put and put er feed in it. [Joyce:] Where was this? [speaker002:] Oh what we call Waterhall. [Joyce:] Waterhall? [speaker002:] Yeah, where you come down that hill from the boy's grave. [Joyce:] Yes. [speaker002:] Well, on your right that's all, that's all Waterhall down there. That's all training round in there. [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] See? [Joyce:] That's on the, mm, that's on the Kentford Road from Bury coming in, isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes yeah. Then when you get down into Well Bottom. You see a house on your left, don't you, pass the house on your left, well all on the right is a what they call the Limekilns. [Joyce:] Yes. [speaker002:] See? there the Limekilns are on Well Bottom to the top of the Down. Till you get traffic lights. [Joyce:] Yes. [speaker002:] All laid out special, you know for training. [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] Galloping ground. [Joyce:] During the war you had to grow food on it, you said. [speaker002:] What? [Joyce:] During the war you had to grow food on it, you said to me. [speaker002:] Food. [Joyce:] You had to grow food... [speaker002:] Yes.... [Joyce:] during the war, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Joyce:] you had to grow food on those... areas, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Joyce:] where you said. You weren't allowed to use them. [speaker002:] Oh no... you weren't allowed er only the Limekilns we was allowed to use. Oh yes they'd be erm, tt agriculture. They'd ere pinch 'em, you see. They'd have to give so much away. Same as the south fields they pinched all a lot of that. We had to grow potatoes and saffron everything, you know. [Joyce:] And these were usually on the training grounds [speaker002:] Otherwise they'd have built on it or summat like that you see. That's why we have to do it. But it's all, all back again in its own place now. [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] See, but th th the south fields, what was, was a good training ground for all of us. Two mile round, there was er the Air Force was on it, you see, the Ninety Ninth Squadron was, was down here see, all, all the war, all them, all that ground was under, under, all undermined with big petrol tanks. Oh yes, all down there that's where they bombed when the war was on and when they killed the people in the town.... Oh yes. Th this was a great place, this was, very, very, very dangerous. [Joyce:] Was there a lot of people killed with the bomb? [speaker002:] One, two, four I, four I think... four I think was killed tt [Joyce:] Whereabouts did it fall? [speaker002:] Outside the picture place. Outside the er Odeon what you'd call it, you know where outside there it fell. Killed the girl in the Post Office, I know. Post Office is this side of the road in them days. [Joyce:] What, on the opposite of what it is now? [speaker002:] two, two and three in the town were killed. Market day it was, you know, oh yeah. [Joyce:] It was during the day? [speaker002:] Yeah, I was down the paddocks, I was, I was. I was down the paddock. Before, I couldn't get down the High Street for bricks and houses, but [LAUGHTER] they're not there now. I couldn't get out quick enough []. I didn't know where it was. [Joyce:] How did the war affect yo your training of the horses? [speaker002:] Oh, it didn't interfere didn't interfere with th didn't interfere, the only thing about it, you had to do everything in daylight, there were no lights allowed at nights, you know. [Joyce:] Mm [speaker002:] You didn't have none of this. [Joyce:] No electric lights. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You had to do everything in daylight. You know very, that was, that was about the hardest part about it, cos no sooner you were done, you had to start again you understand? [Joyce:] Mm [speaker002:] Cos you had to get, do it with lights, and every window was blacked over, oh terrible. Terrible to work in it. But er, we, we got through it all, didn't we? We got through it. But that's, that's what happened. [Joyce:] Did the horses do as well? [speaker002:] Yeah, oh yeah. They didn't worry about them, they... carried on just the same. you done everything exactly the same, only you didn't have the... time to do it in. You woke up about an hour, you know the nights are shorter. Well, you see... you finish in the morning about half past, half past twelve we used to, cos no sooner you get your dinner and had a drink, you had to be back again two o'clock or half past two to start on 'em again, you see, [Joyce:] Mm [speaker002:] which, so that you got the stables shut up before it got dark at four o'clock, ain't it [Joyce:] Mm in the winter time mm. [speaker002:] see, for the lights... so you weren't allowed to put the lights on you see for the bombers. Show the Germans coming over, you know see 'em now you didn't have no street lights, did you. You didn't have no street lights. No. All treated all the same, you see. [Joyce:] Mm [speaker002:] Ah ah. [Joyce:] Did racing continue the same during the war? [speaker002:] Racing? Oh yeah, we raced just the same even though we had to do it early, so that some of them leave, and we started at sometimes half past eleven. Finished at half past two, you see, you know, shortened it up like that. Oh yes, they, they got, they got through everything alright pretty good. They're very good, very good indeed. Marvellous how it was run to tell you the truth. Oh, yes those horses come in horse boxes them days bit of luck instead of trains. They got them here, you see for the races. They used to come a day or two beforehand, you see, so they could be settled down and then race. Oh yes, everything was, it was very well run, it was manoeuvred very very cutely it was. Very, very cutely. But, of course you didn't, you didn't have the time to do a lot in... the muddy light beat you. But you see you had to do as good as the same amount now, you know. You only got the same amount of money... [LAUGHTER] end of the week. You didn't get no more []. No it wasn't easy. [Joyce:] Talking of rac the racing itself. Have the racecourses always been as they are today? Or, or were they different in your childhood? [speaker002:] No, always the same. Just the same as they are today. You know there were no difference in them only... er as they go along now they're putting plastic rails up instead of being wooden, you see 'em there. See so many accidents happen, you see they're putting plastic up now. Then when we're bump against it would just bends over, you see. [Joyce:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh yeah, that's the only difference they be doing every racecourse like that. And you'll find in time th the racecourse'll be made of this here special stuff what they're galloping on. On the heath a special stuff they gallop on, you know. [Joyce:] Oh, the all-weather... [speaker002:] Yeah, the all-weather [Joyce:] gallops? [speaker002:] yeah,wh what we call the all-weather gallop. [Joyce:] Mm [speaker002:] Well, some of the racecourse gonna be made like that and it cost a fortune, mind ya. I suppose Newmarket will be first one to make two,th they've got two courses here as it is you see. They'll do one, experience on it you see. See how it goes and make it all, all the one meeting that have July course, like we was all through the winter. All through the war, with July course you know you see. You didn't have no racing on the first course. [Joyce:] Which is the first course? [speaker002:] the first one. [Joyce:] Mm [speaker002:] As you go er the bottom one. [cough] Then there's one half way up up the Cambridge Road ain't there? [Joyce:] What one's that? [speaker002:] July Course they call i they call that. See, there's two racecourses in Newmarket. There's none in Newmarket, really. There's a... there's erm... let me see one, two, three, there used to be one, two, four meetings in Burrough Wood and two in Stetchworth. See, the July Course comes under Stetchworth [Joyce:] Yes [speaker002:] see, and n the first course comes under Burrou Burrou Burrough Wood you call it. See. That's how they're so rich. There's footmark, footpaths all over the heath you know, where people can walk, and they keep sticking sticks in the heath now, but they knock 'em down. They can't stop 'em. [Joyce:] They stick... [speaker002:] Well bits of sticks in [Joyce:] sticks in? [speaker002:] you know, so they don't make paths for horses who jump over. See, you can't stop the people walking on cos th th th it's a law, you see. There's a byelaw all paths you see. [Joyce:] So who puts the sticks in the ground? [speaker002:] The heath men. They do. You know, trying stop you from walking on the [Joyce:] Ah [speaker002:] walking in the path. But you pull them out chuck 'em aside you see people do. Th they don't take no notice of it. See there was a case a little while ago weren't there, about farmer ploughed up a p footpath you used to get on a stile to walk across the field. Then you used to get some they're all byelaws, weren't there. Ah, in the end they fined him a lot of money, and they had him... can't stop the public, you can't do that you can't. No [Joyce:] So people walk over the racecourse, do they? [speaker002:] Ah yeah, you can't stop people, [Joyce:] The July Course? [speaker002:] The July Course, you see. That was attached to for the July Course the Jockey Club runs a long way right near round on to the Swaffham Road, yeah see runs right up, right up to the Swaffham Road, you see. And all in there, there's Edginton House. You could go to all... where the King, King Teddy owns you know. Edginton House. MacDonald's bought it or somebody after MacDonald's. That one's got, bought now. It's all different now, and years ago was King and on the side of the roads was special gallops for the marsh trained for King, King Teddy. There was always [Joyce:] King Edward [speaker002:] special ground for 'em, you know, everything. Oh, you could see Newmarket once they're stabled from Edginton House. From Edginton House to Lordship. They were all studs, big studs, with Edginton House was in, belonged to royalty. See there's down on the ground now cos somebody called Mr bought it now, I think. I, I can't tell you much about it. [Joyce:] What royalty did it belong to? [speaker002:] What? [Joyce:] Which royalty did it belong to? [speaker002:] King, King,K King Edward the Seventh. [Joyce:] Edward the Seventh? [speaker002:] Yeah, the seven, and em er diamond jubilee or summat like that. Oh yes. Ther was er er private trainer to the King. Dick was. [Joyce:] And they had part of the July Course? [speaker002:] . If you were going to you were going to or Cheltenham Cheltenham. [Joyce:] Norfolk way. [speaker002:] Er er what you go into Sandringham, tt on that back road from where you live, on that back road, going the back road. You'll see t the big w on the stone what they call Sandringham Stud. Blooming great fine statue of p and then you went down to the road where the Wolferton. That's another stud of his all along the estate. T beautiful place all rhododendron, you know, big bush rhododendrons. All you see over there, you never saw only them with, only them golden pheasants, that's all I saw. [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You seen them, have ya? [Joyce:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Beautiful, ain't they? [Joyce:] Mm. Lovely. [speaker002:] Yeah beautiful, I would like to get one of them. There was hundreds when we used to go there, yeah, never see oth never see any other colour. That's all I saw. [Joyce:] Just the golden. Did the studs round Newmarket used to keep... erm [speaker002:] What? [Joyce:] did the studs round Newmarket used to keep fancy birds? [speaker002:] Always. All studs did didn't they? [Joyce:] Don't know. Do they used to keep decorative things about? [speaker002:] Ooh, yes. Plenty... there's s s stud what the just bought. Making a fortune ain't he? He went into ooh, Down Hall, ooh beautiful place. Then the other one just bought er all this Wooddidden and er Dersley. The other one just bought that, and somebody else has just bought Manor, Manor Stud and Banston, Benton Manor. [Joyce:] Were all these studs about before the First Wor before the Second World War? [speaker002:] Yeah and the First World War. [Joyce:] So they've been here a long long while. [speaker002:] Yeah, they've been here years. Been here years. All jockey big-heads on the Jockey Club, you know first started them off like, you know? [Joyce:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Benson along the Ashley Road. Dougie the bookmaker used to own that. That belongs to a man called now... he owned... he owned North... now what does he own now? He owns Indian I believe that'd r runs tomorrow., he he owns them big stud, Beech House Stud, that's a all along Ashley reach right down here to your, to, to Upend, you know land. That was a Stetchworth, Lord Elliesmere, phworgh, horse studs. All wealthy people. [Joyce:] Mhm. [speaker002:] that's what I said. houses in them days, if you worked on a p work on a place, you had to live on a place, you see, if you got the sack you had to get out of 'em. Nowhere for you to go, was there? [Joyce:] Is it [speaker002:] Today they can't do it. [Joyce:] Mm. If you'd got the sack [speaker002:] What? [Joyce:] [shouting] if you got the sack [] [speaker002:] Yeah. [Joyce:] would you have found it difficult to have got work at another stables? [speaker002:] Oh, no. You wouldn't find it difficult. You wouldn't find it difficult. Very seldom you heard of 'em getting the sack. Very seldom. Same as stud grooms, you never heard much stud grooms getting the sack. Or head man. See, you th you, you got so controlled, you knew the runs of the horses, you knew the ways of your horses, you knew the ways of your guvnor and, you change, you got to start a role all over again. You see what I mean it. That's why they don't sack people like that. You keep er and blacksmiths, that's why they own their own blacksmiths. Well, you see, if you keep changing the blacksmiths about and they're altering horses feet all the time, putting plates on, putting shoes on, you see... it's a game of its own. It's one, one consistent game of its own. [Joyce:] So, a blacksmith, then will [speaker002:] Ah, they they all had their own blacksmith. You got one [Joyce:] You got one [speaker002:] one blacksmith does that yard, they l or two, two do the yards now, cos there's a lot of. Then two do them between them. [Joyce:] And the blacksmith, is he an independent person? [speaker002:] Oh... yes. The guvnor is. Well he can't interfere with him. All you do is you put on the list all will want shoeing. Or come and send for him,h he what has to be in the yard, the blacksmith has to look thirty to forty horses their blacksmith has to look round every one of them. He has about sixty here. Every one of those horses he has to look round for fo all four feet up. That's two up, that's two up at er two or three up at, or. [Joyce:] Are they employed by? [speaker002:] Yes. That was on the place. [Joyce:] Oh, I see, he had his actual own [speaker002:] Oh, yes [Joyce:] blacksmiths? [speaker002:] Oh, yeah. [Joyce:] Because there are also some independent blacksmiths [speaker002:] Oh er, oh yeah, got his place, well his men go round, he had got two or three men in every yard he has,. [Joyce:] Mhm. [speaker002:] He's just died, he has er he was head man of the lot of 'em. The head blacksmith, of the lot. He was Jockey Club man in charge of them all, oh yes. You couldn't come and, you come bouncing in here and say you were a blacksmith. You couldn't get started. Oh, no. So strict. [Joyce:] So you have to be... [speaker002:] You had to be certified and serve your apprenticeship. [Joyce:] And accepted by the Jockey Club. [speaker002:] With everything, yeah,fo for a blacksmith today. [Joyce:] What about in days gone by? [speaker002:] What? [Joyce:] What about in days gone by? [speaker002:] Days gone by? Well, you had to send miles for them, didn't you er er blacksmith. Blacksmiths were the thing on the side of the road, didn't he do all the wheeling, mend your wheels, and all horse, all iron wheels, and things like that, won't years ago, and you had to send for him to come and do 'em,w well, he had men that he'd, that he'd taught like boys, apprentices. He, they used to go out and do all the outside work for him. [Joyce:] All the horses? [speaker002:] Yeah. Oh yeah. Blacksmiths started on the side of the road, that's how blacksmiths started. Who's gonna do all th them years ago, was all horse and carts, [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] who was gonna... axles and the bicycles and everything like that. [Joyce:] But in Newmarket with the racing stables. [speaker002:] Oh, there was always blacksmiths here. Always blacksmiths. [Joyce:] Did they have their own blacksmiths then, or would there be like in the town that went round? [speaker002:] No, no, they didn't have. They used to have... some had their own blacksmiths. The Honourable George like Lord Derby, he had their own, always did. They've shops up there now, all got blacksmiths shop, you see. Every stable. We had, you see, everything, everything, tooling for the plates, everything you wanna make. Your irons used to come longer than this... irons, where you measure horses feet and you know, measure 'em up. You know they measure across from heel to toe [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] then across from there to there. [Joyce:] From side to side. [speaker002:] Always do on a bed of wheat straw, so you nip it off from where the you see, and you know your measurement. Yeah. Oh yeah... asking a man on this television the other night,th the heath man. I don't know if you seen it or not., his name is. Now how can you tell the one horse from another? Well... he said it would be by the markings. Yes, but he wouldn't get the markings unless he be through me. Or somebody in the yard he was paying. And you had to get, get a bit of paper and you drew a straight line, straight line, see like that, and if he had two white legs you put a cross, two white... see, if he had a long one, he had put a big cross, if he had a long, two long white leg, if he had me behind you put a cross. If he had a white face, you put a mark down that way... see. [Joyce:] So it's like marking the points out on a horse, with crosses? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] I'll show you before you go, give you a bit of paper [Joyce:] Yeah. [speaker002:] wh where we used to mark 'em. And when they say what we call 'em touts they were called then you know. Touts. On the heath. Some people chase them away, wouldn't let you see horses work and all that, you know. [Joyce:] Oh, these were people trying to find out what horses might win a ra [speaker002:] Yeah. [Joyce:] yeah, be fit enough to win a race? [speaker002:] Race, yeah. [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] Very strict years ago, very strict. They used to get up trees with glasses and look with everything they [Joyce:] Would they? [LAUGHTER] Like spies []. [speaker002:] Oh, very strict years ago. They wouldn't let you th see anything. Oh no... er er that's the secret of er that was. Oh yeah, oh,h have a good look. Foggy mornings, you used to gallop them in the fog, the best, gallop horses in the fog. See say you don't gonna gallop five fur you didn't gallop five furlongs, well, they might think you're gonna finish five, you only galloped 'em four. See pulled up. You done 'em all like that.... Ah.... Get up early in the mornings,gallo take 'em out and gallop 'em, take 'em back in. Shut the gates. Some of the men didn't know they'd been out exercising. [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Ah, I'm telling you the truth. That's where I served my time they didn't... phew... [Joyce:] These, these touts. What were they looking for? [speaker002:] Why, the books, report in the papers. They all had a paper the Evening News, the Standard, the Star, the Sporting Life ah all the papers wanted to know about the horses. So the tr the owners who owned them them days you could read about them, but they don't do it today, cos the trainers ring them up and tell them how they're going, don't they? [Joyce:] So when you put these markings... on your piece of paper [speaker002:] Yeah. They paid you for it, they had to pay, to pay [Joyce:] Who paid you for doing that? [speaker002:] wanted them on the heath. [Joyce:] What the heath men or the touts? [speaker002:] Touts. [Joyce:] Ow! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Touts. Of course,yo you don't go tell him, it don't come on there does it. Cos you can live down there you know you're doing this you see. But that's how they used to know. Oh yeah. Al any mark or a white spot on them... all tricks of the trade. If the lads had any brains th the touts used to say yearlings, they, in the yard got any, yes, get the markings for us, you see. They used take them and give them a drink. [Joyce:] Really? [speaker002:] But then, most of them relied on the head men, we used to tell them you see, to keep their mouth shut. So that when we galloped them they didn't know, see, mm, years ago they were very particular an another man didn't li, say I had horses and you had horses, I wouldn't like my horses galloping with yours. See my meaning? [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] And th I, I wouldn't want yours galloping with mine. You understand? [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] So you had to be pally so that your owners help one another. [Joyce:] Yes. [speaker002:] Get my meaning? [Joyce:] So [speaker002:] Oh yeah, they don't stand for that today, you know. Galloping one owner's horse with another. Oh no. Phew, you'd be surprised. Oh it ain't all, ain't all cushy, it's, it's a bit secret on some things, you know. Owners don't know everything. If they see their horses done [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You shoot me when you have a read of that. [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] No [] [speaker002:] Giving secrets away. Oh yeah, very, very, very... phew oh yeah, they didn't like it. They used to ring one another up owners and they know one another in the yard. Oh definitely, they don't mind helping one another. See? [Joyce:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's why Lord wouldn't have to give all that money. What was it, ninety, ninety odd, ninety five thousand pound. won last week at somewhere didn wasn't last week to lead Slip Anchor. To lead him work, instead of borrowing other people's in the yard. [Joyce:] To lead him? [speaker002:] To lead the horse. Yes, you have to have a lead horse in work. In front of your good ones. [Joyce:] What so you can pace, be paced by it you mean? [speaker002:] Yeah [Joyce:] He's doing this horse now, Reckless Boy, he's leading him now. Oh yeah. That's why we Slip Anchor won so far he wasn't from here to cross the road. Mhm. [speaker002:] See, cos he had this lead horse you horses jumped off. Made off couldn't catch him. That's what this one'll do. You see. See him far up ahead. They'll be coming down here saying thank you, what's the date today. Oh first of May tomorrow, yeah, no, Friday [Joyce:] Friday [speaker002:] about the twenty ninth today. Well, you can always say I missed tomorrow's till the end of April. They tell me he'll win the Derby. Yeah. Going well he is, I tell you. [sigh] [Joyce:] Is he? [speaker002:] I think th I think the Frenchman will win the one thousand tomorrow and er, will ride the winner of the two thousand, Different to Me, or something, it's called. I don't think 'll stay, myself. Different people, different opinions, that's my opinion. [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] That's all I know. [Joyce:] So what would race days be like in [speaker002:] Race days? [Joyce:] years ago? [speaker002:] Oh, they stayed just the same as they are today,yo you carried on just the same, only the difference in them now, race days years ago, the heath was shut at half past nine. You couldn't go on the heath and train horses up after half past nine. You understand, not this side. [Joyce:] Mm. [speaker002:] Race people, race days you see, people come to their races and put their tents and things up. And you all had to go over that side. [Joyce:] Over the Bury side. [speaker002:] Over Bury side, where you come down that hill. [Joyce:] Yeah [speaker002:] They always worked over that and around there. The other places look across the heath as you come up the, the road anywhere, but not on this side. Half past nine they finish. Same as the Limekilns, they are today. There's a certain gallop on the Limekiln shut at half past nine. If it's not shut at half past nine, it don't open till half past nine. You understand? [Joyce:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it don't open till all the people have used the short gallops. See cos you have to cross over 'em. You have to start at the top of the town that way, and go down over down and come round like that, finish off start down Norwich Road and come up Bury Road. So that's how far round it was. I suppose a mile and three quarters, I think. And one red house to the top of the lights, traffic lights. From one side of the road up the other. That's how it used to be years ago. Of course I co couldn't tell you now the different ways, they do what they like now. That's all I can hear about allowed to gallop his horses across the heath, er and all this rot. Terrible. [Joyce:] did erm on race days, how did they organize the races? When you were a young lad. [speaker002:] Organize... well, they organize theirselves. The jockeys [Joyce:] That's me, it's all right, it's my microphone. [speaker002:] that's erm, erm nothing to do with us, the Jockey Club do all that. Th they organized all the races. All we got to do is enter, enter the horses in you get a paper called the Calendar. When you have that calendar sent you, it's a lot of money now. It used to be three and sixpence I think, it is about five pounds now. Well, you look through it, and every race meeting that's on there, probably five or six weeks. And you look through every horse wherever you want to put your horse in them races are in that Calendar and you pick your race out, put your horse in, pay your forfeit. Then you have to pay another forfeit if you leave him in. Understand? [Joyce:] Pay another forfeit if you leave him? [speaker002:] Forfeit. You pay a forfeit to put him in that race. See, if you want him to stop in it, you gotta keep paying the forfeit all the time th them weeks that go by. Same as years ago. I don't know, I don't think, think it's altered now, years ago you had to enter your y Derby horse. You had to enter them as foals, and then when you entered them it cost you fifty pounds to enter them, and it cost you fifty pounds for every quarter of that lifetime of that foal. So you run in the Derby. [Joyce:] Why did you have to enter them as foals? [speaker002:] Oh, I don't know, that was their idea, years ago. But I think it's changed [Joyce:] Just [speaker002:] but I think it's changing now, I don't know. I, I, I been out it a long while now. [Joyce:] Did, did the racecourse used to be busy? [speaker002:] What? Busy, you couldn't get through the streets for charabancs and charabancs in them days. Cabs and all all lined up outside the White Hart Jockey Club Rooms. All lined up the street. Cabs, you used to jump in and drive them up the road cos there were no motor cars. Oh no... there weren't motor cars out for years, called them charabancs, charabancs you know. You used to meet in the Avenue, meet in the High Street. [Joyce:] What taxis? [speaker002:] Meet at the station. Used to be specials from the station. at station charabancs. Ooh... all sorts, heath carts, donkey carts everything. [Joyce:] So there was quite a bit of business in Newmarket for anyone who [speaker002:] Oh the pictures, it's a pity I haven't got some. I ain't got some of the old pictures for ya. But it was a, a very good, very good in the old days. They sold horses outside the Jockey Club room years ago. [Joyce:] Sold them? [speaker002:] Sold them, yeah. A man used to stand on,no not them gates was there years ago there was a wall there. See be on a block, standing on the block. You used to run your horses up and down outside there and they used to sell them. [Joyce:] What, racehorses? [speaker002:] Yeah, anything, and anything. You sell... everything. Anything. They sell anything. Up and down that's what they used to do. [Joyce:] When was this? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh, this is the old fashion, years ago. There's photographs of some people, I wish I could get them 'em. Marvellous. The things that used to go on in Newmarket. Ah, God yes. [Joyce:] Was that this century? [speaker002:] Ah? [Joyce:] This century? [speaker002:] Oh, yes. Ah, yes, of course it was. Yes [Joyce:] What before the...

[speaker001:] about when you worked at er [Ivy:] Yes. Well where I was born in Needham Market [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] need I say where because I, I can't day. I don't [speaker001:] Oh, I see. [Ivy:] the people to know [speaker001:] You was born here then? [Ivy:] I was. [speaker001:] Ah, right well let's say you were born in the house you live in [Ivy:] Well you could say [speaker001:] without act without actually saying where it was. [Ivy:] That's right, yes. [speaker001:] You don't often get that nowadays. [Ivy:] No you don't. because er I naturally I went away to work but er I was born here and er you see and, and wh what else did you want? [speaker001:] where were you born, because you must be one of the oldest residents in Needham? [Ivy:] Yes, I, I was born in this house but er I don't wish people to know er because er this is a funny world, I, I don't know whether that's being recorded I expect [speaker001:] Yes, it will all be dow that will go down on [Ivy:] because er well I er I, as I and I've got young neighbours who I very seldom see because they are out at work er therefore I am quiet and that's how I like to be [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] an. er erm, well I mean we, we live in a strange world [speaker001:] Mm, [Ivy:] it's all very different to when I was young. [speaker001:] Yes, yes. What did your father do? [Ivy:] Oh my father was a shoemaker. [speaker001:] Really? [Ivy:] Yes and he worked in the High Street and er he what would you say suppose that's the proper word. He lived down Gypsy Lane with his two sisters, he was a single man you see and my father and mother lived here and my, they not only mended shoes but they made them and er course naturally, you know, well of course Needham wasn't as big as it is now but they made them for the best people, if that, if that's the right, not the right expression say, but er but you know what I mean er and er and he, you know, all his life you see he did that and then one day he had a shock because his er, what would you call him colleague, he, he died suddenly in the night. So my father said what shall I do? I said, well just carry on and so he used this er workshop at the back. The black and there was all cement drawn and everything and we had a big table in there and he just carried on he didn't make shoes and he died when he was er, well he had a bad stroke and, and he was in the other room for seven years. You see they didn't do things then that they would have done today, you see, seven years and you see I at that time, well I used to used to have a day off and instead of having a half day a week we used to have full day a fortnight and so of course on my day off I came home to see what I can do to help, you see and er my mother died. My father died in nineteen forty six and my mother died in nineteen fifty seven. Well my husband and I were married in nineteen forty four, you see, and er as you see I go every year and it's nineteen eighty six, so therefore erm I you see I, I don't really want people to know my age [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] you see because living here like this and er I mean, I mean only yesterday I heard of an people burst in the door and this old lady on the head and where's your money and that sort of thing, you know, so it it's really terrible. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] It's a lovely world, beautiful world but it's the people in it you see who are spoiling things so much and I don't understand youngsters you see but because young people erm there, there was a time when youngsters just er do just as they like and they weren't reprimanded by the parents, whereas my parents were very strict you see and it didn't do me any harm and I'm glad now that they were. We were brought up nicely to go with my father who used to sing in the church choir. They haven't one now. Well I was sent to the erm United, well it wasn't a United Reform Church then but it was called the Chapel and I was sent to there, to Sunday School there, mornings and afternoon and we went two by two across to the Chapel, you see, so while my father, we used to walk down the street together. He went to church and I went to the Chapel, you see. [speaker001:] So he sang in the C of E Church, Church of England? [Ivy:] Oh yes and there were eight choir men, you see, well no choir at all there hadn't been for years, you see so er and I had a photograph somewhere of my father with eight choir men, you see, and er well after that [speaker001:] Did they have a, did they have a band or anything in the church or did they sing without music? [Ivy:] Er well they've got a piped organ there and er oh someone plays the organ yes. An old gentleman from Stowmarket, his name's Mr I'm sure it was because er, you see, my father and I used to go up Stowmarket Road sometimes after church or chapel and er and go for a walk up there and used to meet this Mr who played the organ Stowmarket and very course but erm but I had a wonderful life really [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] and then, as I say when I was sixteen well erm when I left Needham School, you see, I passed through. I missed several classes because they put me up in, for instance I, when I came up from the infants to the big school I missed the first standard and they put me into standard two and I went from two, three, four, five, six, seven and seven and I was only eleven, you see, so I did pretty well and then the Headmaster came to my parents and said, why don't you let her go in for a scholarship to Stowmarket Secondary and so I went in for that and er there was one other girl went as well, there were two of us and erm, and of course we only heard during the summer break and er we passed. Now this other girl came down one Saturday morning and we had a letter to say that I'd passed and I said well, so have I. we did so hope that we'd both pass, you see, because, you know, been terrible [speaker001:] How old were you when you passed that scholarship? Well I I was eleven but by the time but I had a birthday, you see, er in the summer and er er well August actually and so when I started at Stowmarket I was twelve, you see, and er and er I was at Stowmarket School and scholarship for four years and er well I don't know whether I really liked school, did you? Bits of it, not all of it. [Ivy:] [LAUGHTER] No that's right, as I say but erm anyway then after that when I left at say sixteen, you see, er er er a friend of ours who was a railway clerk at Needham Station came and told us that they were taking on girls on the Railway Company and would I like to do it and so of course I had to pass exams and er actually, can I read some notes that [speaker001:] Yes [Ivy:] Oh this er when I said er I was just looking through again because last night I sat up late writing these [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] and then I got in a muddle and I was so tired I was, because it's my eyes you see [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] I can't see very well Yes and of course I can't see anything at all without my magnifying glass [speaker001:] Without your [Ivy:] yes I know I'll read this first page [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] and, and erm I put after leaving Needham Market School, I won a scholarship to Stowmarket Secondary School for four years. Then I was told that girls were being taken on the railways so I had to go to Ipswich and take two more exams and started work as a booking clerk at Needham Station when I was sixteen. I learned how to use the single needle telegraph instrument. Well now I don't know whether you know anything about that but it's a make words. [speaker001:] Morse code is it? [Ivy:] Oh yes er yes code yes then I had to learn that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] and er, you see, and I can still do it because [LAUGHTER] I know N D N D N D and they keep answering that. I know it's, I knew it was Needham Station and it was between station to station, you see, not er anything to do with the public but that's where I learnt so we used to er take er messages from station to station and I used to speak to the girl at Merrith down the line. She was also the Stationmaster's daughter, you see, and we used to talk to each other telephone you see and erm, well that's as far as I've got now. I hope you're finding it [speaker001:] This is just what I want to hear. Oh [LAUGHTER] oh well, yes, well of course er I kn I know about take two more exams and er I know the second one was mental arithmetic. Mental arithmetic and reading and I also had er er take an eye test because they said if there was a train accident and I couldn't see the signal whether it was red or green or whatever, you see, you never know. So I had to take an eye test, I remember. Erm and er... oh yes, er no wait a minute I had and take two and started work as a booking clerk, I've said that before at Needham Station when I was sixteen. I learned how to use the single needle pantograph instrument, sending and taking messages from station to station. Issuing tickets and taking in parcels. The parcel door was the other end of the office you see and er oh I loved it, I loved the work I really did. I took early and late turns with the Chief Clerk, you see, and er well there were two lads who did a middle turn but I needn't mention that, but they did a sort of nine to six you see Mm, and you would do, which turns would you do? You'd be early and late [Ivy:] Early early and late. [speaker001:] How early? [Ivy:] Seven o'clock in the morning at seven o'clock till four, I think it was and then er it would be two till ten, you see, but the Stationmaster was always about just in case I was late er you know, not there by seven. To book out the seven ten train. So he was always always there and such a kind man he was and er yes Chief Clerk. The clerk whose job I took went on the district as a relief clerk and later relief Stationmaster. I am talking about during the First World War, you see. I was there until the end of the first war, what some people called the Great War, anyway, the first war that'd be ni and I was there until nineteen nineteen. Well it was over in nineteen eighteen. However, I stayed a bit longer and when all the girls, all of us had three months' notice to leave, it was dreadful, you see, because we were fully trained by that time you see. But er, course I'm talking, I'm forgetting all this is being recorded. [speaker001:] It's alright, don't worry about it. [Ivy:] Oh, you'll sort it out later on [speaker001:] Yes we'll sort it out don't worry. [Ivy:] Yes, and the girls had three months' notice to leave and on the last day at three months I heard that a young lady had left the Post Office. I went to see the Postmistress and she said I've known you all my life, so start work on Monday morning because, you see, it was so quick and I hadn't got my references back from the Railway Company but that's what she said er I can start work on Monday morning. I enjoyed the work, issuing dog licences, gun licences and old age pensions and of course stamps. [speaker001:] When did the old age pension come in? [Ivy:] Well I can't remember but my parents got it but when it first came in I can't remember the year but [speaker001:] No. [Ivy:] I was too young but it was about five shillings a week [speaker001:] Is that all it was? Was that for a couple or single? [Ivy:] No, I think, I think they got ten shillings between them. If I remember rightly [speaker001:] Yes [Ivy:] but I can't. I have no idea of the date when it started but erm... and of course it er anyway, it's better now thank goodness. Erm... whilst there I learn how to use another sort of telegraph instrument. When I was at the Post Office. Er taking off and sending telegrams, you see, erm then I was told that the Railway Company wer were taking girls on again, so I applied and I had to go to Ipswich to pass two more exams, you see, and er and started work and the in the Catering Manager's office at Ipswich Station as, as a clerk doing typing and general office work as the Manager had to go on the district. Every day to the ten refreshment rooms. So he was starting at Chelmsford, Witham, Marks Tey, Colchester, Ipswich erm Bury St Edmunds, Newmarket er down so far, Manningtree and er there were ten altogether. [speaker001:] So what do y you prepare, helped prepare the food for all the trains? [Ivy:] oh no I didn't do any cooking. [speaker001:] You didn't? [Ivy:] I was just in the office. [speaker001:] Aha. [Ivy:] I was just in the office typing and er and general office work and while he went on the district you see. There was only the I was going to say but when they had w oh when I was in the I went to evening classes to learn Pitman's Shorthand. Erm, I was at Ipswich Station for ten years [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] you see. Now when they were busy and had important people in our dining room at Ipswich, there was one, there were two waiters. Er, one and another one who did, who was a waiter but part-time when they had somebody important in, which I think I've put down here, that one's finished with. [speaker001:] But did that be for the staff catering? Would that be the that you are talking about the canteen for staff [Ivy:] erm well [speaker001:] dining room? [Ivy:] The dining room, oh yes the dining room I was [speaker001:] that would be for the staff, railway staff? [Ivy:] Mm. Oh no every er er ordinary customers. [speaker001:] Oh, I see Oh, I see actually, it was actually at the station? [Ivy:] oh yes [speaker001:] different now when it, where it's just a cafe isn't it? [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] I don't know I haven't been up for years. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You don't, I mean they don't have proper dining rooms at all. [Ivy:] Don't they? [speaker001:] No. [Ivy:] Oh. [speaker001:] No, that's why I was wondering. [Ivy:] Oh goodness. [speaker001:] There isn't at the station for the customers. [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker001:] just like rolls now and a cup of tea [Ivy:] Oh my word, how it's gone down. [speaker001:] Well what sort of meals did you have to provide? [Ivy:] Well I can tell you. I've written it all down. [speaker001:] Oh really, oh good. [Ivy:] Yes I, you see, in those days it was quite different [speaker001:] Yes [Ivy:] you see er what it's like now it was a large adjoining the, the, the large room, what they call the you see and over the, over the other, across the line, to the railway line there was another place called the Down Bar and the Tea Room adjoined. I don't know whether they're open [speaker001:] No, [Ivy:] not there? [speaker001:] No, nothing like that there. [Ivy:] I can't believe it, you see I thought things were still as they were. [speaker001:] No, they're not. I think you'd find it hard to recognize the old railway station now. [Ivy:] Well every, you know erm I can remember the time er when I first went and they used to have silver er plated of course, silver plated water jugs on the counter and silver plated sugar bowls with tongs and loaf sugar for people to use and of course well and when you see the war came along, you see, they were all taken away because, you see, we had troop trains we were up day and night so the troops with tea. You'd get a message from the R T O the er Railway Transport Office to say supply three hundred and sixty cups of tea at such and such a time and then of course the troops would the train would start, the troops pour out and pour into our place and there we were dashing around. I used to help of course and we were up day and night. I've got a, a photograph somewhere where we had this trestle table er on the platform and if you were the tea and of course the men had to stay o overtime, they didn't get paid for it and we, we it was a seven day week for us, we were never paid for Sunday. It was seven days a week. We had every other Sunday off, you see, but otherwise we worked and didn't get any extra for it but of course the girls like myself well erm we couldn't lift these huge urns of tea so they had two men keep them on, you see, and er, and we were er perhaps I know one day we didn't finish until five o'clock in the morning and we'd been up all night serving troops and er, you see, and then the Manager said, well look er now and have some breakfast before we get th another telegram and we were next door to the Telegram Office, you see, and when, when the erm war, during the war, you see, the man would come out of the Telegraph Office and he would say er and er, you see, all the lights went out except a few lights along the back of the counter. Then he'd come red and you'd know that a erm a bombing raid was imminent, you see, and er er [LAUGHTER] when I look back you know, but as I say everything has changed so much. [speaker001:] Now that, you're talking about all the troops coming through. Was it Ipswich Station? [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker001:] And yet when is it, when were you working there because I thought you said you'd finished. You worked at Needham during the war and then went to Ipswich. [Ivy:] Ah, yes, well we after I left Needham, then I went to the Post Office for a year [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ivy:] which I told you [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ivy:] but you see erm, well I wanted to get on [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] and I thought I can be here until I'm ninety, you know, [speaker001:] Yes, and not get anywhere. [Ivy:] that's it [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] and so when I heard about taking on girls again, on the railway [speaker001:] But they were still getting troops and bomb bombing raids? [Ivy:] Oh yeah, well it was during the nineteen fourteen eighteen war. Oh yes, you see, they, I mean [speaker001:] But I think that you were working then at Ipswich, I thought you were just at Needham. [Ivy:] Er ye well er, it was when, no let me think I went to Ipswich, I did a till the First War ended. I see what you mean. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] Well, and I went to Ipswich well it must have been just after the war then [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] but you see er, yes that's right and then of course I'm, since then I was up at Cambridge and that was during the second year [speaker001:] yeah [Ivy:] you see, so yeah and er we used to have as I say er, well for instance I've been up in the office. If they had important people... like er such as Mark and his wife, the pianist, erm you've heard of him of course. Well he, he, they were on their way to Norwich but they stopped off at Ipswich for a lunch, you see, and er I had, I looked after them, so, so that it shouldn't interrupt the other girls behind the counter or, or the waiter who was looking after his regular customers in the dining room, you see, er and so I used to erm and once I had... I remember there was six black doctors came in and er and I was glad because it was nice to move about and instead of sticking in the office typing and then going out all alone, you see, while the Manager was on the district, you see, I liked it and er anyway that was a long time ago. [speaker001:] Yes. So in the wa in the dining room, they had waiters as well? [Ivy:] Oh, yes. They had er his name was Jimmy they had er well one used t one old gentleman used to be a yes and his name was Jimmy, the waiter, that's right I, I get a, I have to think because I, I sometimes get mixed up and I'm at Cambridge and you see... it was a long time ago, you see, so, since I was young and I was then. Well I can tell you I went to Cambridge er on er the twenty eighth of December nineteen thirty one. Well that's fifty, how long, well I daren't think [speaker001:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] Fifty years ago. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ivy:] You see and [speaker001:] Oh. [Ivy:] that's a long time [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] I'm sure you don't want to hear all this [speaker001:] I'm really interested about Ipswich Station just cos it's, it's so different now. [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker001:] That they used to have waiters and tables with silver, plated silver [Ivy:] Oh, yes. [speaker001:] and tablecloths [Ivy:] Er no they didn't have tablecloths, no, er in the dining room of course [speaker001:] Yeah, in the dining room. [Ivy:] oh yes, but not in the ordinary er there was a huge place, where you could put tables all round the tables, you see, and, and er it was a and er I liked it, I, when they were busy, you see, I used to, especially if they had an order for these hundreds of cups of tea, er, you see, I used to go down and give a hand then, I used to like it, you see, somebody would give a shout and I would come down from the office and [LAUGHTER] and left them anyway and then er I heard of this job. I thought well after ten years, I thought, well I want... I still want to get on and erm... so I heard of this job down at Cambridge Station as Assistant Manageress at the Refreshment Rooms, you see, and er it wasn't quite the same because er at Ipswich, you see, although the Catering Manager's office er my work was office work and typing you know general thing and er because he was away most of the day, most days, because of er er the ten stations er from stretching as I say from Chelmsford, Witham, Marks Tey, Colchester and er I think it was Clacton and er and Manningtree and er I think, I don't know Manningtree and Ipswich of course and er then er Bury St Edmunds and, and that's it and I am not sure whether you went to Newmarket or whether to Ca whether to Cambridge now Newmarket but er, you see, so the days went on and we worked every other Sunday and of course I know things were a lot cheaper then but you see the pay wasn't, wasn't very good. [speaker001:] No, how much would you have earned? [Ivy:] Well because I was in the office I got a pound a week, you see, [LAUGHTER] and the, do you know the Manageress there who, she was the Manageress then sorry, I've got a photograph and she said that when she was Manageress at Colchester and she only got fifteen shillings a week I and the girls, that's, that's all they got fifteen shillings because I was in the office I got a pound [LAUGHTER] and mind you we slept in, we had all our food, you see, and we had to all sleep in. [speaker001:] Where at the actual [Ivy:] On the station [speaker001:] On the station, at Ipswich Station [Ivy:] on the station [speaker001:] they have rooms? [Ivy:] Oh yes, upstairs, they're still there I expect I don't know. [speaker001:] Goodness. [Ivy:] We slept there you see. [speaker001:] So what you had your own room and [Ivy:] Well no I had to share a room with a, with a, I think there were five beds. Four other girls, that's right and of course there were housemaids there to do the work and er yes housemaids and er and er you know and in the, in the kitchen, you see, there was the chef and er a cook, the kitchen maid and er a young man, a boy, well just left school to scrub the tables down and do the floors and that sort of thing... and er and whi and er while I, of course I had to go down every day to type, to see what the chef said, what was on the menu and type it, type out the menus, you see, that was one of my jobs and er and if... let me think, yes there was quite a number of staff, that's just in the kitchen [speaker001:] Mm. [Ivy:] you see and ther I su I suppose there was about ten or a dozen girls behind the counter because it was early and late turn for them because you see we were open, you see, until ten o'clock at night, you see, and er then, well, anyway, after that erm I heard about this job going as Assistant Manageress at Cambridge... and er so I applied and the Manager said to me, I thought well I'll be here ten years, erm I can be here until I'm you know, donkeys years and er so he said well look you may not get a job because he said that another girl coming from Norwich to go to Cambridge to see the Manager as well as you and so you might not get it, she might get it, and, however, I went and er I, I met the Manager and the Manageress in the front office, the Manager's office and we all had a chat but I didn't see the girl from Norwich, she must have gone some other day and anyway I got the job, you see, and er, and so I went to Cambridge as Assistant Manageress and I very well and I got to know all kinds of people, all nationalities being a university city. Well it was a town then but since then it's been made a city, you see, and I got to know all kinds of people and one gentleman came in there, used to come every evening and write a book... and er, I used to look after him if I happened to be that end and er, you see, and then he'd say, oh just an exchange you know about the weather and just in general thing and then I'd leave him and he'd get on with his writing and one day he said to me. When I've finished this book and it's published, I'll give you one [LAUGHTER] he said you won't understand anything about it because it's all about electronics and electricities but he said never mind and, and he did and it's up on that shelf, er [LAUGHTER] I've still got it []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] Yes and [speaker001:] Never read it? [Ivy:] Well, er er er it's all on, well I couldn't understand it, he said, but he said I'll give you one because he said after all I wrote it here didn't I? You see, he was exceptionally nice and he used to lecture at the colleges and er he was a real, very nice gentleman and er and so he, of course he, he, he took his drink across to the table with him and sometimes I took it for him it just depend and he, he wrote this book and er [LAUGHTER] I forget now, perhaps you would like to read and see what he says the second book down, it's with a mauve coloured book that one yes [speaker001:] Elementary Technical Electricity by Samuel [Ivy:] Yes [speaker001:] to Miss Ivy [Ivy:] That was my name I married. [speaker001:] with compliments and kind regards, Robert Samuel. [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker001:] This was nineteen thirty eight [Ivy:] Oh, well there you are [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] amazing [Ivy:] see how I've saved it all those years. [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] You see [LAUGHTER] yes [speaker001:] Extraordinary. [Ivy:] It is isn't it? [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [Ivy:] Yes, yes he gave me one Yes I thought you know when I retired and left Cambridge I ought to bring that with me you see [speaker001:] Oh, yes. [Ivy:] and of course, as I say, being at Cambridge there was a little theatre there and er we used to see so many of the actors and actresses that used to come into our lives you see because there were five places on the station, for instance, there was the tea room adjoining the, there was a large kiosk, large kiosk one girl in there, you see, and er there was, then there was this large which is the biggest and then the dining room that, you see and er so and, and one year I, I wrote it down but erm, one year I remember we took forty four thousand pounds which was a lot of money and er, you see, well er I got on very well with the girls [speaker001:] And you ran all this? You were in charge of all this? [Ivy:] No not, not till the Manageress, I was just going to tell you about that. The Manageress there [clears throat] erm I was there and she, I, after I'd been there eighteen months, she had a heart attack and the girl [clears throat] took up her tea tray, one of the girls took up her, because she wasn't on duty till about just quarter to six to do the money. It was my job to go to all these various places and collect the money and take the numbers on the till and collect the money and put it in a bag, put it in the safe. That was my work, then when she came down on duty, she would sit one side of the table with her books and I would sit the other and count all the money, you see, then I would take this money er, in a bag, through on to the black through the, past the ticket collector and take it to the booking office and they took it from me and took it when they took their money to the bank, you see. Well do you know... sometimes I'd taken it through and perhaps a train would come in, a London train would come in and people were crowding through. We never thought anything about being mugged in those days, you see, and er and th that's what happened, as I say, so we took lots and lots of money, you see and er [speaker001:] So you were a sort of Assistant Manageress? [Ivy:] Yes but you see at this time the girl took up her tea tray and, and when she took, she knocked on the door and when she opened the door the Manageress was lying on the floor foaming at the mouth, she'd had a heart attack. Well of course she came running to me, you see, and we immediately phoned for the doctor, you see but, however, and I said, look, phone for the doctor, I said, and then I said go across to the railway police just across the yard and I asked one of them to come to me and I said I will go up with her and be with her until the doctor arrived, er he was with her the police sergeant when she died. There was me as well, you see, and there was nothing we could do and er she'd had this erm, it was awful, they took her to the mortuary because some of the girls, you see, erm, you know they went hysterical and er I'm not gonna pass her door, that sort of thing. Er, you know, well of course they were young girls and er, you see and there's, there was nothing we could do, you see, and, and er, anyway the doctor, as soon as the doctor did come, it was because th the young staff er they had to, they took her away to the mortuary, you see and erm then I, I had to carry on with her work and, and do the best I could and mine as well, you see, but of course er the Manager he appointed another Assistant Manager to go and collect the money which I used to do got it in because I took her times of duty as well and er, you see, and then after that er after several weeks I suppose it was, I don't know how many because I forget how many, that they appointed me as Manageress and I was in that position for twelve years, you see and [speaker001:] Until you retired? [Ivy:] Until I re and, well until my husband retired at sixty and I thought well if he's going to retire at sixty, I might as well retire, you see. [speaker001:] So when was that? So that [Ivy:] Er, that would be oh well he was a, he was a railway clerk er on the station [speaker001:] At Cambridge, is that where you met him? [Ivy:] Yes, that's where I met him. [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] He used to come into our place and erm, and er, I always knew when he was g every night, hale, rain, snow whatever, he was there, you see and he used to have his pint of bitter, no more or no less and er, you see and all his friends, there were six of them. All bachelors, stood along the counter, you see, and er they were all good friends and though some of them had, had retired, one had retired and we, well there most of them had retired because er my husband was fifteen years older than me and er yes anyway erm he, he, he retired, let me see, we married er when I was forty four, you see and erm... he would then be, well no, yes he'd be just fifty nine, you see but nevertheless, we had thirty two years very happily married and so when he died, he was ninety one. Yes and he was buried up at Creeting you see. He was cremated and buried up at Creeting in my parents' grave and that's what's going to happen to me, you see I will be cremated because erm, you know they make a sort of well and take off the top stone and the pebbles and things and er and then the ashes go in the and so in a casket don't they and you see and so we shall [speaker001:] All be together. [Ivy:] be together [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] you see [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [Ivy:] in my parents' grave. [speaker001:] So when you retired you came to live here, was that it? [Ivy:] Well yes and er so after that, you see, when he retired at sixty. Mind you he was, this is my husband. [speaker001:] Oh, I thought that might be him, yes. [Ivy:] There, isn't he handsome? [speaker001:] Yes [Ivy:] Now he was a, oh, he was seventy one when that was taken. [speaker001:] He doesn't look it. [Ivy:] No. [speaker001:] I mean he could be in his fifties. [Ivy:] Oh yeah, he doesn't look it. [speaker001:] he's a very young [Ivy:] picture of me when I was younger [speaker001:] Oh yes, yes [Ivy:] but I forget how old I was [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] but he was really handsome [speaker001:] Yes [Ivy:] and so [speaker001:] he was. [Ivy:] so quiet and so well respected, he was so kind, you see, and so I'm grateful and of course before I married, you see, I, we used to have three passes. I had three a year and of course in between times you go we had quarter fare if we want to go anywhere, you see and er of course it was the old money in those days and I would come from Ipswich to see my parents here for sixpence halfpenny then and er, you see, I used to go on holiday alone. Now really as far as you're concerned er I could tell you a lot about our holidays we had. [speaker001:] That's amazing that you went on holiday alone because surely you would have done much [Ivy:] well you know I, I wouldn't do it now. [speaker001:] No, no. I wouldn't do it now because I, ever since that, that woman was on the train was stabbed and thrown out, I wouldn't go alone on holidays now but in those days, well maybe I was a lot, course I was younger then but you never heard of such things But yo it sounds as if you were a very independent person. [Ivy:] Oh I was. [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] Oh I was and I used to go, and the first place I went to, let me think, it was Dunoon. I wanted to go to Scotland and I remember I came to say goodbye to my parents and that was in the evening and I went by train to Liverpool Street and it was pouring with rain and I had to make my way, I had a taxi across to Euston, you see, and er and I went up th the left side of the country, see, past Carlisle and and then across and across and then and to Greenock er er to Dunoon, you see. [speaker001:] How do you spell that, I can't think of the name. [Ivy:] Dunoon? [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] Er it's er D U N double O N isn't it? [speaker001:] Oh, yes, yes of course it is a Scottish place [Ivy:] Oh yes, it's in Scotland, you see, and whilst there, you see, every day er because a lady laughed at me and she said, she was staying in the same hotel and she said er I, I used to book up in advance of course but never took a chance. I used to book up in advance and I thought oh go to Dunoon, you see and er I got a free pass, so I went and erm she said talk about a holiday, she said you soon you've had your breakfast you're off. I said well that's what I came for. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] so what did you do when you [] [Ivy:] Up and down the lochs. [speaker001:] Yes [Ivy:] Up and down different ones, different loch and er you could see Inveraray Castle in the distance we, er after we married we went to Inveraray Castle, went over it [speaker001:] How old were you when you went, first went to Dunoon then? [Ivy:] Oh goodness, well... [speaker001:] You must have been in about in your mid twenties? [Ivy:] Er... well I started going for a holiday by myself when I was about er [speaker001:] What [Ivy:] when I was sixteen because it's then I started to get these free passes and I had a sister then who lived at Rye and I had never been across London so the next door neighbour came with me to see me across London er because I was so young you see and I said right as long as you show me across London I can come back alone, you see, and so I came back alone and I, that's when I started, so from sixteen and er and as I say I went to Cambridge in the nineteen thirty one, it was the last day of well say nineteen thirty two, you see, and, and also in the twenties I was going on holiday alone and I went to once er to the Isle of Man and when I was er I, I sat next, well being by myself, you see, they put me in, to a little table near the wall. I booked up in advance of course. They put me by a table er near the wall but it for a table for two and then another lady came by herself, I remember her name was Miss and erm and she said, have you been here before? I said, no, and she said oh I have lots of times, I only live at Manchester, you see, and of course, you had to go by boat you see, and I caught the boat train from Ipswich at eight o'clock in the morning and I got to Manchester at lunchtime about one and then went on to Liverpool and the train there took us almost down to the docks. Well of course when I went to the Isle of Man, see, I went on the boat and er, you see, and er it only cost me ninepence for a, a landing er for the landing stage. I had to save ninepence because I had these free passes. Three a year which was very nice and er oh well whilst I was there, you see, erm I landed up in, in Peel because I was going on a and she said to me one day this Miss er what are you doing today? And I said er, well I'm going on a coach trip to rou around the island and she said, may I come with you? I said, of course and I said it would be nice company and so she said er... you sit near the window, I've seen it lots of times before, as I only live in Manchester. So she ca the two of us went together. Well we went off, we got off at Peel which was the other side as you know and there was Peel Castle right on the hill there and erm well after, and she said we won't go to these sea front cafes, well I know a nice restaurant, she said, up that road, and she said, just turn to the right and there we are, see. She said, may I come with you. I said, of course. I said it will be nice company and so she said er, you sit near the window, I've seen it lots of times before as I only live in Manchester so she t well the two of us went together. Well we went off and got off at Peel which was the other with the all bandaged up and she said the chemist advised me to go to the police and er so she said that's why I've been a long time because I've been to the police and reported it. He said it's happened before and he advised her to go to the police and er so he, he said er when and the police st told her, when you come back we'll have all this typed out i... and she came back all with a flask all bandaged up and she said the chemist advised me to go to the police and er so she said that's why I've been a long time, because I've been to the police and reported it. He said, it's happened before and he advised her to go to the police and er so he, he said er when and the police told her when you come back we'll have all this typed out, your statement but we'll need you to sign so tell the coach driver to stay at, stop at the police station for you to sign it and I, I said to her, how, how did you manage to stop that boy? Oh well, she said, you see, it's my work, she said I work in a, in an insurance office and she said I'm in and out the courts all the time, you see [LAUGHTER] so [LAUGHTER] he knocked down the wrong person [] [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] [LAUGHTER] well [LAUGHTER] anyway [] er, you see and well anyway er so when, that night and we were by coach of course bus, went there by bus and so that night she said to me, what are you doing when, in the bus, she said, what are you doing this evening? Well I said I think I'll go to the theatre and off I went to the theatre. I was rather late back, when I got back I heard a knock on my bedroom door and she said it's Miss and er I said, oh come in, I undid the door and she came in and er and so she said to me er, I just had a telephone message from Peel er to say that you have been subpoenaed to go the Police Court next Thursday and I said what a day out of my holiday and she said, well I'm sorry but you'll have to go. [speaker001:] Yes. [Ivy:] So the two of us went off to Peel and er anyway they paid us, they paid for our lunch and er and so that was alright and of course I had to go in the witness box, you see and swear on the bible, you know, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, you see. I was a witness and so on you see and down below and the sergeant said to me, the sergeant came up and said to me, you'll have to be careful because he said that boy, he was sitting there with his mother, poor woman, all in black and er the em the boy's employer had got a solicitor on his behalf, you see, and I said well I can only speak through and say what happened, that's all I can do and er, so of course when I went into the witness box this man came and er asked me all sorts of questions. Where, why didn't you walk on the pavement, on the path. I said there wasn't one, you see and er he said, er so you were walking, were you arm in arm? I said, certainly not. So he said, are you two friends? I said, no, we're not friends but we're friendly if you know what I mean. We're staying at the same hotel and sharing the same table, you see. He said, oh. So erm then er oh he asked me other questions. So he said, you were on the right and this lady was on the left near the gutter side? I said, that's right it's and there was a narrow road, yes. So he said erm, well in that case, he said erm, you were walking together but not arm in arm? Yes, that's right. So what else did he ask me? Oh I know, he said erm, let me see, oh he says, er like that, if it was a narrow road er you er pretty well covered the road and I looked, I said, covered the road, I said I know I'm big, but not that big a and of course everybody, the magistrates on the bench and everybody laughed, you see and there were newspaper reporters sitting down there writing all this down, you see [LAUGHTER] and so I said to the [] sergeant, I said, would you be kind enough to send me a newspaper to er tonight and he to I am not sure if I can oh yes I think I did. I suppose I've still got it somewhere. Anyway, I over it and er so he, he, he said, yes I will, I'll send a piece [LAUGHTER] on to you [] [LAUGHTER]. Yes I can see them now, they all laughed you see [LAUGHTER] oh dear

[Ivy:] I'd had er er er strange life really [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] but very [speaker002:] Very interesting. But what, [Ivy:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] but what I find so interesting is because people talk nowadays as if it's only recently women have had jobs erm [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker002:] and careers but you obviously had one [Ivy:] I've had one all my life [speaker002:] all your life [Ivy:] all my life, you see [speaker002:] Yes. That's what I find so interesting. [Ivy:] Yes, mostly of course, well [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] it's all office work [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] and er you see and, and anyway I finished up my holiday and the sergeant said, he kept his promise and er sent me a report over the newspaper, you see, and er and of course and I liked the Isle of Man, you know, I went for trips around the island and various places and er, and I did see a Manx cat [speaker002:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] no tail [] oh dear oh dear but you see then of course and I was still not married but you see I, as I say, then I went to Cambridge and that's when I met my husband and all his family were so kind to me, er he had erm two sisters living in a flat round the backs, you've heard of round the backs Mm. [Ivy:] haven't you? The back of Kings College I spent hours and hours around the flat, back of Kings College, Cambridge and er, you see and we, we went sometimes for a service. His mother died when she was sixty unfortunately. Or sixty two rather but his father lived until he was eighty six and his father was the District Goods and Passenger Manager at Cambridge and er later on, of course, er when he was old enough, he, he was in the same office as his father was but not the same position, you see, but he was a clerk, a railway clerk, and his brother was Stationmaster of Colchester and his grandfather was also a Stationmaster and that would be in Queen Victoria's reign when, when railways first began and then again, you see, in those first days, you see, when there were highwaymen and that sort of thing erm signalmen, signalmen were issued with a truncheon for their own safety, you see, and I've got one. [speaker002:] Really! [Ivy:] Yes [speaker002:] With. [Ivy:] but I don't want er many people to know [speaker002:] No. [Ivy:] about it, because you see I don't want anyone breaking my door down and bashing in, you don't know who's who these days, do you and er but you see they, that's how. So that I married into what you call [LAUGHTER] a [] railway family. [speaker002:] You did, didn't you? [Ivy:] I did, yes and er, and so, and er as I say er I've had a most wonderful life and I've been a widow now for ten years. It's ten years ago since I lost Hugh but er, I don't feel lonely er not really. [speaker002:] Well you've got so many friends and sisters, haven't you? [Ivy:] Well I've got so many happy memories, you see, well then of course when Hugh and I married, you see, er we had a apartments down at [speaker002:] Oh, really? [Ivy:] Yes and we u [speaker002:] That was, that was divided into flats then was it then? [Ivy:] Oh no, no, no, well there's an old lady lived there named Mrs and her husband was a clergyman. They called him Father. At one time he, he lived at, they lived at but er er she was a widow and she was ninety but she was very good to us and, but we had er, we had apartments but there was a lock on both sides of the door, you know what I mean, we were quite self-contained and we had er er a narrow stairs and because of the war I couldn't, you couldn't er, I used to scrub the stairs down because you couldn't buy carpet in those days, you see because of the war and to the shortage of stuff and so I used to keep those stairs nice and, we had a, a, we went, as we went up these stairs erm it, I suppose originally, you see, it would have been back stairs for the servants, you see, in the hall and this old lady used to go in and if ever she had the doctor she used to ask me if I would go and sit with her and hold her hand while the doctor came, you see. She had other daughters in the town but she always wanted me and if ever she wanted anything to do with her papers and books and financial things, she used to ask my husband to go in, you see the day after we got there she brought us a huge dish like that with mushrooms which er grew f er well there are houses built there now but er at that time they had a big meadow there sort of a copse er in it with a bunch of trees and you see and all these mushrooms grew, you see, and they were, you know, they're nice you see. We paid rent to be there and er and of course either Hugh or me or both of us came up to see my mother every day, you see, unless we knew she was going to have a visitor and then we used to take a day off [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] and we'd go off to Felixstowe or somewhere but you see we still went away because he had four first class passes a year [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] being on the railway and er, you see, er and of course I went then under his pass I suppose Mr and Mrs then and er and then of course we started to er when my parents first died we, we started to get around. [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] You see, and so we went to oh Inverness, Aberdeen and across to the Isle of Skye, and down the Skye and back across the water to Mallaig you see and er then we stayed one time at Fort William and because I love Scotland, so did he and erm and, and then and all r and then, and another thing, erm, this is before I married erm I went down, oh no, both of us, that's right, we went down to stay at erm not, not Portsmouth er Southsea er there, there's a place near there, next door [speaker002:] Eastbourne? No, not Eastbourne, erm Gosport? [Ivy:] Southsea [speaker002:] Don't know. [Ivy:] Nex anyway it's quite near Portsmouth and we heard that the first Queen Elizabeth ship, they don't say it's the first but they call this one the Q E Two but there was a Q E One, you see at one time and so we took a coach from there to Southampton because we heard that she was in dock there and so we went and there were crowds of people and all in a queue waiting to go in. Well we took our turn and we waited to go in but once we got in we broke away from the crowd and when they all came out and went to lunch in the town we didn't. We stayed on board and we went up on to every deck and there was even a gentleman, he showed us up on the bridge on that er on that and, and of course there was the little shop and I bought... I thought I must buy something on the Queen Elizabeth and I bought a pen. One of these er, I suppose it'd be a ballpoint or whatever you call it and this, I've still got it, it says on the Queen Elizabeth, see, and er, you see, we said, we said, well never mind very much, we can have something a snack afterwards and so we stayed on there from eleven o'clock in the morning until three in the afternoon, you see, and er er and we were wandering around and we saw the dining room, we saw the captain's table and er, you know it was, and, and then we looked along one deck, we were high up, and down below there were rows of, rows of lifeboats in case you see [speaker002:] There was an accident. [Ivy:] of an accident [speaker002:] Yes [Ivy:] you see, but oh I enjoyed, we had some lovely holidays. [speaker002:] Yes, sounds like you did. [Ivy:] I, I did, and then of course as I say er, you know, with my husband, well I had lovely holidays before but when you've got a companion it's all too different isn't it? [speaker002:] It is [Ivy:] I really, that's what I live on now, memories of the happy holidays I've had with him and, and even to this day I keep in touch. Janet posted a letter for me last week to a friend who I worked with at Ipswich, she was one of the girls behind the counter and at the moment they, her and her husband, he, he, he, he was on the, he finished up but he started as a lad in the kitchen but he finished up as a chef on the dining cars and they married and er and they've got er two children erm they're married to and, and we kept, we've kept in touch with each other for sixty years [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] sixty years, I wrote to her last week and I had a letter from her the week before [speaker002:] Yes [Ivy:] and we've kept in touch and they live up er Witton Churchley [speaker002:] Oh yes [Ivy:] You know where that is [speaker002:] Yes I do. Yes [Ivy:] That's right and we've kept in touch all those years [speaker002:] that is nice isn't it? [Ivy:] Well its wonderful really you see [speaker002:] Yes yes. [Ivy:] and she we we we were good friends, you see [speaker002:] Mm [Ivy:] when er, we've kept friends you see, they don't come here often, like me they're getting old [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] and she's got arthritis, well in her knees, same as I have but not quite so bad because er, well up to now, but then again she's younger than I am er several years younger than me and, but she's getting on and so is Jack you see and er, and er so erm I've had a, as I say, I've had, I've had a wonderful life really. [speaker002:] You have haven't you? You know you say you lived in at Ipswich Station? [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker002:] Erm, didn't, at Needham Market didn't people live in there or main entrance? [Ivy:] Where? [speaker002:] At Needham Market Station. [Ivy:] Oh, well,n I don't know what it's like now but because the booking office is closed. [speaker002:] Yes,th that used to be through the main entrance, isn't it, the booking office. You go through the main door up the steps. [Ivy:] You go up the steps, in the main door [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] and the booking office was on the left [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] and the Stationmaster's office faced the platform but there is another door that to get into as soon as you got in the main door to the left, you see and with a flap and that's the door that we used to take in the parcels, you see and very often we used to go in that door or sometimes we would go through o on to the platform and go in the Stationmaster's door, you see and then there again, if I took messages to the Stationmaster on the single telegraph er I had to go down the steps because th more often than not that they were in the basement. It was, there's the basement and then a large room above where they used to have meetings er, you see, and er, and er, well they did they had friends from Stowmarket go and visit them, you see. [speaker002:] Didn't the Stationmaster and the clerk live on the premises? [Ivy:] Er, oh yes, they lived in the station next you see. [speaker002:] That's the bit that joins on one side of the main entrance area? [Ivy:] Yes [speaker002:] They've got there are two little doors aren't there, which are probably their front doors? [Ivy:] Well,th yes, well that's it, they are going facing the station and it used to be so much prettier than it is now. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] pretty the daisies and things and the Stationmaster lived that side [speaker002:] Which side, what on the left hand side as you face [Ivy:] As you face the station, he lived that side you see and er there, the room where they used to entertain their friends was just the other side of the wall the booking office, you see, and er he was such a kind man, his name was Mr [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] and his, his er son was one of the lads who worked in the office doing the middle turn, you see, and er I don't know if he's still alive. He must be eighty, because I mean there wasn't all that much difference in our ages. [speaker002:] You don't know where he went to when he left? [Ivy:] Well I, he lived at Stowmarket for years but then I heard not so long ago that they had moved to Ipswich but where I don't know but they must be, whether he's than I have now I don't know either. [speaker002:] On the other side was th the Chief Clerk would live? [Ivy:] No, he, no I think it was er, I can't remember who lived there. I think it was one of the signalmen or [speaker002:] Aha [Ivy:] I can't remember exactly who lived on the right hand side, I've forgotten but th I know the Chief Clerk lived just a little way down, you see, er [speaker002:] In one of those little red brick cottages? [Ivy:] Yes, that's right down there, down there, down and as I say who I took early and late turns with and er why I same as at Cambridge. There were twenty five staff. [speaker002:] Was this at Needham? [Ivy:] Ca no, not Needham. [speaker002:] Oh [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] No I had nothing to do with the staff at the [speaker002:] No, no that was at Ipswich [Ivy:] He, he were a Stationmaster, you see, er he was exceptionally nice man. You never heard him say a bad word or anything like that. Well he was... quite, he was a good man. He used to. Oh I cried when I left there, I really did, it upset me. [speaker002:] Yes. But and when we all quite shock How many were working there, how many girls were working there then at Needham? [Ivy:] Only me. [speaker002:] So you, yes. [Ivy:] Only me in the office. [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] You see, and er the porters did the er er cleaned the waiting room and dusted, you see. Well, there was a porter there, called Len and he, he was eighteen and er of course you know well I I was as I said sixteen, so he was a bit older than me but he, whilst he was at Needham he said well when I'm eighteen I'll get my calling up papers. Cos that's during the First World War, you see, and erm, he did and so he said goodbye to us all and he said... I'm going up now to say goodbye to your mother and he ran up the street here to say goodbye to my mother. She made some tea, she told me afterwards and stayed and stayed and stayed and he lived at Prindon and his mother was very very deaf and my mother got worried because he was going away the next day and she said to him, Len don't you think you ought to spend the evening with your mother and he said, yes, I'll go now and he ran off and he ran back again and he said, you don't mind if I write to Ivy do you? She said, no you write and he'll, she'll write back, you see but, and he went out to France and he was killed in three months and and his name, so they told me was on the er, on the board at er. Do you know I often wonder what happened to the honour board at Needham Market. There used to be an honour board and I was on it and so was Miss 's brother, er Ivor because er who whoever won the scholarship, you see, their name went on the honour [speaker002:] Oh, I see. [Ivy:] board, over the door [speaker002:] In the church? [Ivy:] No, no, in the school, er in the er, no it wouldn't be in the church, no [speaker002:] in the school, oh [Ivy:] and of course I'm talking now about the old school [speaker002:] Mm [Ivy:] Because I don't know anything about these new schools. [speaker002:] No. No I don't know what's happened to that. [Ivy:] No, I, I wondered because er it was quite an honour to have your name [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] put on the honour board. [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] You see, and my name was on there, as I say and Miss was the top. No I don't know whether hers was on, but I know her brother's was, you see, I, he died of course. [speaker002:] Yes. So how many worked there, there was a lot of people worked at Needham Station then. There were what, two porters [Ivy:] Er, yes there would be two porters, yes. [speaker002:] Then there was you [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker002:] and two clerks [Ivy:] And two t these two lads er [speaker002:] So there'd be two clerks and two lads? [Ivy:] No, one clerk [speaker002:] One, one [Ivy:] Chief Clerk [speaker002:] Chief Clerk two lads [Ivy:] and I took early and late turns with him [speaker002:] Yes [Ivy:] but the other one went on the district [speaker002:] Oh, I see, yes. [Ivy:] as I said before as a relief clerk [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] for holidays and sickness and so on and then later on relief Stationmaster [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] and you see eventually he got a station of his own at Thorpe le Soken. [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] You see down on the [speaker002:] Yes [Ivy:] So that's how many [speaker002:] and then the Stationmaster of course the Signalman. How many signalmen, just the one? [Ivy:] Well no cos he had actually So there'd be two signalmen, would there? Yes. [speaker002:] That's nine people worked at Needham Station. [Ivy:] Yes, I, I [speaker002:] No one works there now you see. [Ivy:] They don't work there? [speaker002:] No, no, the signal box is closed. [Ivy:] Oh, now, is it really? [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [Ivy:] Well I heard not so long ago that they were going to either pull it down or [speaker002:] Well I think they want to keep it, either there or move it somewhere [Ivy:] Oh, well I, I think that'll be a shame. [speaker002:] It would be a sha I think they've re they don't want to lose it. [Ivy:] No. I hope not. But as I say they might They have how things have deteriorated since [speaker002:] it's amazing, that there was nine people who worked there at the time of the war. [Ivy:] Yes. You see, and of course when I was at Cambridge, you see, and that was during the Second World War, well of course, you see, I remember seeing a plane because of course the station was a prime target [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [Ivy:] and somehow I don't know how, but somehow they always knew when the train was being loaded up with tanks and then that was the night we would get a raid and of course, you see, they all ra tried for the station. Well, you know,it you see, time were, I don't know I suppose, I don't know but I never seemed to be afraid and I used to have my... or something round my waist, a belt with the keys hanging on and they supplied me with a as well, one of these, I don't know what they're made of they weren't all that heavy but still they were heavy enough to keep on. I mean they weren't aluminium so they blew off I used to wear one of those and er, you know, for safety, you see, but er anyway I survived the [LAUGHTER] survived the war [] and [LAUGHTER] but wh it's amazing really when I look back how we d how we managed because we had such nice people in there, as I say and like these actors Jack Claude Cecily. They all came down and used to come in our rooms and all sorts of other and I met some very ni and of course, all nationalities, you see and no matter what they were, well of course Cambridge has always been noted for different nationalities, hasn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] And of course I loved the town and although the station was about a mile from the town centre, people used to come from the town centre in their cars, they had lunch at our place er er at Cambridge, you see, and there, there were two waiters and one, one of them took part-time cellar work, you see, and er, they were two brothers and er their name's [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ivy:] the younger one they call tiny because he was the yo smaller than his brother but the other one you see and we did enormous business, especially during the war. [speaker002:] Mm [Ivy:] But er [speaker002:] yes [Ivy:] you see and I'm glad I didn't miss it, I'm glad I went through all what I did and, and this particular raid, you see, the siren went and they said a telegraph office read, you see,an and then I thought I'll go to the back door and I went to the, well it was actually on the front of the station and I went to the front of the station and there was this plane swooping down like that and of course, you see, the bombs didn't fall down straight like that but they went as the plane went and they knocked down a row of houses at the end of the road. Yes a row of houses and of course when I saw I looked out the door and there was this plane swooping down like that and it seemed so low because they were aiming an and the bomb fell in the cattle market and, and I threw myself on to the stone floor, you see, and er and presently one of the ambulance men came round to my office door and he said, are you alright? I said, yes thanks. I sat by the fire knitting and er he said, [LAUGHTER] I can see []. Well you took all this sort of things in your stride but the next day we heard about these houses being knocked down, you see, and I think that's the nearest I've been to be killed but one day, one Saturday and that was in a daylight raid, one Saturday afternoon because, you see, I was off every afternoon but I worked till ten every night, you see, and er so erm but of course Hugh worked during the day and he was off in the evening, that's why he used to come down to see, to see us and er he used to come in er you see and leave his lodgings and, oh be about nine o'clock and he spent the last day up there perhaps with his friends, have a chat, and er, you see, and but er and I was walking along it was called and suddenly a plane came over and I thought oh I expect it's one of ours. When all of a sudden they dropped a bomb and I thought there wasn't at all, you see, and no siren had gone, nothing, you see, and there was broad daylight. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] You see, of course we heard about it afterwards, you see, [speaker002:] Yeah, yes. [Ivy:] but er I don't know perhaps we were braver than these days, perhaps you were braver when you're young [speaker002:] Mm, yes, perhaps that's true, yes. When you worked at Needham, you must have seen all the toings, comings and goings on station yard, yard and a lot of cattle coming and going. [Ivy:] Well no, er we, no we didn't, the only cattle we saw was when they were on the train, cos I don't remember they, they seemed to. I don't know whether they dealt with cattle. [speaker002:] Aha [Ivy:] It was mostly seeds and stuff like that. [speaker002:] Yes but you know Russell. [Ivy:] I know he, he's older than me. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, well he's I interviewed him er last year and he was telling me that he remembers going up into the loft in 's erm, the whole of the station yard was full of cattle. [Ivy:] Oh. [speaker002:] So loaded off of the train. [Ivy:] Oh, oh I didn't know that, I, I perhaps that was, perhaps that was [speaker002:] I think they were all going to market because obviously had a farm. [Ivy:] Oh yes they did. [speaker002:] So it's possibly one market day I think he said. [Ivy:] Yes, well that might be the time, you see when perhaps I was at Cambridge. [speaker002:] Yes. It might have been later than, than er when you worked there. [Ivy:] Yeah y [speaker002:] He was saying people going on the trains is it when you worked there rather than animals [Ivy:] Oh I no animals [speaker002:] No [Ivy:] you see, no animals were er, only in the, in the trucks, you see. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] passed through, because they didn't stop at Needham and er but I always thought, you see, there were, I don't know several clerks in that office as I remember but I can't remember who they were anyway I didn't have, we didn't have much to do with them. [speaker002:] No, no. [Ivy:] You see, they were just more or less sort of, I thought they were just sea merchants. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes that's probably to do with farm. [Ivy:] Er, yes [speaker002:] No, not the mill really. [Ivy:] Aha, yes. [speaker002:] I imagine. [Ivy:] I, I don't remember any cattle [speaker002:] No it may have been later [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker002:] or being older he may have remembered times before that. [Ivy:] Yes, yes that's true yes because how old would he be now then? [speaker002:] Oh, he must about ninety. I tried to remember when you said he was born. [Ivy:] Oh. [speaker002:] I can't remember maybe, he must be about ninety. [Ivy:] Yes, well I was er, you see born in eighteen ninety nine. [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] So of course I go as the years go [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] you see and like eighty six, now this year, I shall be eighty seven but you see when it comes to the end of the year, the turn of the year, I'll still be eighty seven [speaker002:] Yeah, yes. [Ivy:] you see, until my next birthday, that is, you see, but I, well each year, you see, I always say well to my friends I am so thankful for my friends who drop in and each year I say, well I don't suppose I will be here much longer but I shall be here, I hope, while I can walk [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] but when I can't walk well I shall call in the doctor. Cos I n I don't have a doctor year in hardly ever. I'm thankful for my good health, you see, because apart from arthritis, you see, I'm as well as anything and I hope I'm still in my right mind, you see, but I, now and again, I forget names [speaker002:] Mm, but then I forget names, my husband is dreadful with names [Ivy:] Well er [speaker002:] he would even sometimes recognize [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker002:] with people he knows quite well. [Ivy:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] I think it's just some people are a bit like that and some are [Ivy:] I I forget people, I forget but then, you see, as I never go out. Well I went out once last year, you see, and I was lucky enough but and for years and years and years I took Fynnon Salts and which is supposed to be good for rheumatism. Matter of fact this last couple of days I've started again but you see er of course that was before paracetamol came on, on the scene [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] and I have tablets from the doctor and you see as I say from the waist upwards I'm [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] I feel well and th and I try er and my husband's nieces they often ring me up er well I was on the phone to one of them when you came yesterday. Er and she said I'll ring you ag I said oh dear someone now coming to the door, she said, never mind I'll ring you on Saturday, so I said alright and er and she lives at Wyndham, Norfolk, my husband's niece and erm, you see, and then there's the other one and she said, auntie you're always so cheerful [LAUGHTER], I said, well I try to be cheerful because like everybody else I get a little depressed sometimes because, you see, I have no sisters and brothers, I have three elderly cousins who live away and who I, who I see, one was here a fortnight ago er er er my cousin and his wife er, you see, it will be on a Wednesday, a fortnight today, no Thursday, yes, you see, a fortnight ago and they said, we'll come again an we've always bought you a bunch of daffodils so we shall come again when the daffodils are and er and they bring me over bits and pieces because er she was a cook and they bring me something nice to eat [speaker002:] That's nice, isn't it? [Ivy:] Isn't it nice but I haven't any er [speaker002:] Close relatives [Ivy:] no and of course being, marrying at forty four er no family [speaker002:] Mm [Ivy:] you see, you haven't got any family? [speaker002:] No, not yet. I'm married but I haven't got any family yet [Ivy:] Oh, that's what I mean er and you'll have to make haste won't you? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh I don't know, I don't know whether it'll be like Mark and Jenny and [LAUGHTER] perhaps never get round to it []. [Ivy:] No, I know, well I mean what is there for young people to look forward to these days and I feel really sorry for them and I mean all I hope is that Jenny will get a job [speaker002:] Oh yes. [Ivy:] when she's finished [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] er but I don't know whether there's any prospect, do you think she [speaker002:] Don't know, don't know. When y you know you said your father was a shoemaker? [Ivy:] Yes. [speaker002:] Whereabouts in Needham did he have his... shoe [Ivy:] Well it's where the bomb, where it was bombed out [speaker002:] Aha out yeah [Ivy:] quite near the United Reform Church. [speaker002:] I knew there was a shoemakers there. [Ivy:] Yes, Mr Yes and my father and Mr [speaker002:] What was your maiden name again? and he worked for Mr? [Ivy:] I didn't [speaker002:] No, did your father work for Mr? [Ivy:] Yes that was his name, you see well, well my father, as I say, he had a stroke and er he was in, in bed in the front room for seven years, you see. He er, Hugh and I used to come up every day do what we could, you see, in those days if you had a stroke you had to lay there till you died. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] Er but nowadays I suppose they take you up to Ipswich and you'd have er [speaker002:] Physiotherapy or something like that [Ivy:] That's right [speaker002:] to make you, to get you going again. [Ivy:] Yes, that's right [speaker002:] Yeah they do so much more nowadays. [Ivy:] Well that's it, but they didn't then, you see and er and Doctor used to come up here [speaker002:] Oh yes I've interviewed his widow. [Ivy:] Mrs er Mrs er [speaker002:] she is [Ivy:] Isn't she nice? [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] Oh I knew her years ago [speaker002:] Yes [Ivy:] and of course, well she was er I haven't seen her for years and years [speaker002:] but she's [Ivy:] but but, you see, I am told that she's going to live next door to the, where she used to live the doctor's house er er unless that's pulled down, you know almost opposite the United Reform Church. [speaker002:] Which house is that? [Ivy:] Well there you, I don't know what it's like now but they u [speaker002:] It's not quite opposite, is it? [Ivy:] Er [speaker002:] It's more or less opposite where your father's shoe shop was. [Ivy:] Oh, is it? Oh [speaker002:] You mean the big red brick one next door to the doctor's surgery? [Ivy:] Er i er, yes the doctor just there. [speaker002:] Yeah that's it I how [Ivy:] Mrs 's father-in-law. I am going back to old Dr [speaker002:] Oh, old Dr, oh yes. [Ivy:] you see, and he was, he, he probably brought me into the world, you see but, er you see, and Mrs erm, you see, she was married to Doctor... and he used to come up to see my father and we had a different door then door being that's got a yale lock on now but he he'd say, hello Frank, you know [LAUGHTER] always [] so you got, oh he was so nice and it was such a shame that he died [speaker002:] He was very young when he died. [Ivy:] He, he was and I forget how old he was [speaker002:] I think he was only in his forties. [Ivy:] Was that so, oh [speaker002:] Yes [Ivy:] dear he was so nice [speaker002:] Yeah, everyone said how nice he was and old Dr was quite a character [Ivy:] Yes he was, you see and he used to come down, you know, and everybody's family waiting to go into that tiny tiny little surgery but I don't know if it's the same now and the door half open in er well, anyway, still er he, he, he, he used to put something in a bottle and fill it up with water some liquid [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] you see I'm talking about his father but I liked er Mrs 's first husband, you see and er I hear that her second husband isn't all that good. [speaker002:] No, no he wasn't well, I went to see her er I think he may have had a stroke and he can't get about very well at all [Ivy:] Oh dear [speaker002:] and I think he finds it difficult to speak [Ivy:] Yes [speaker002:] as well [Ivy:] an and is he, is he at home? [speaker002:] Last ti when I saw her he was, yes [Ivy:] Oh he was [speaker002:] but [Ivy:] because he's had a spell or two at Stowmarket [speaker002:] Yes [Ivy:] he had er new place there er er what's his name they've got a, they opened a new nursing home didn't they? [speaker002:] Oh, did they? [Ivy:] Er works for er there's only, oh I can't remember his christian name, David, David and his wife, you see, and I think he, David still works and of course [speaker002:] He lives along the road from me. [Ivy:] Oh you know Mr [speaker002:] Yes, yes [Ivy:] and, and erm so on. Mrs was very kind, she sent me a box of... mince pies and barley water and shortbread all sorts, you know. Christmas time and she did last year [speaker002:] Mm [Ivy:] er and of course I've known Walter for years but I don't know his wife, I've never met his wife and of course not being able to get out into the street now, I should get out for about two years after I lost my husband and then I got this er awful pain nobody knows unless they have it er this arthritis in my knees, you see, and erm and then I found that it was too much for me to er otherwise I used to walk up to the post box road and I used to count the steps, three hundred and something steps there and three hundred and something back, you see, and to the front door, you see, but I, I can't do it now but I have with help and I went out last year with er Mrs and er twice we went to Dulwich which I enjoyed and so did she and the last time we went to and er we had our lunch and we went to see my cousins at West Suffolk and and, and then came home again, you see, and that's the only time I went out last year and usually I used to go to for a day and I am hoping that if I, I am hoping, well you can only hope, that I might perhaps go so out one Sunday, once, just once in the, you see, because er,th that's when when you're old you've got to keep, you've got to hope for something [speaker002:] Mm. Yes. [Ivy:] and you've got to keep busy and you see now my sight has gone I now, not long distance, I can sit here and see television [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] you see I moved a bit more now but and I I've still got good hearing er apart from this ear here, this ear, I can't hear so well, quite so well, this side, you see so I always have to say excuse me while I, hang on while I turn off the television, you see, and then they have to wait a minute till I turn it off and then what I do is because I have this phone extension put in [speaker002:] Yes. [Ivy:] you see I've got one in the front room and I had this one put in so then I say if I am in the kitchen, I say, I lift up the receiver, hello, and hear who it is and then I, I say hang on while I get round the chair and then you see I sit on the arm of this chair and talk because er it's difficult to stand too long [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] you see, but er, otherwise, you see, er you know I, I get on well really by [speaker002:] You do, yes [Ivy:] and I, I have a meal on the Friday and er brought to me [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] and, and they're such nice people [speaker002:] Mm. [Ivy:] Do you know Mrs and Mr [speaker002:] Oh yes, they live up in Creeting yes. [Ivy:] and, and Mrs? [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [Ivy:] Now er her husband came down one day and I said to him, what's your name, and he said Mr

[speaker001:] This is an oral history project tape, my name is and I am interviewing of Ipswich. This is tape one of recording number two of the Ipswich Transport Project. The date is the eighth of June nineteen eighty seven. Right, oh thank you Mr. Mm I wonder if you would start of by telling me where you were born? [Albert:] Yes, well er [LAUGHTER] I'm Ipswich bred and born. I was actually erm born in although most of is gone now for the development of the grounds. The house that I was actually born in is still there, number twenty five er after a while I moved across the road to a bigger house when, cos my mother had an another son and a daughter and then we moved over to the, so when we were quite a bit in the Stoke area. Stoke area was chosen I suppose because my father worked on the railway and you either worked on the railway or if [LAUGHTER] you lived over Stoke, it was well known for that. Erm twenty second of July nineteen sixteen so I'm a first war baby.... I then er, we then broke away and went up to the er, I suppose it's the, I don't know what part of the, but it's the Dales, that's where I moved to then and then to because my dad couldn't, getting on in years, he couldn't take the hills up and then from I got married and we moved into this address here and then that was the day after war was declared that I got married. [speaker001:] thirty, thirty nine. [Albert:] Yes, yeah fourth of September nineteen thirty nine and course erm the erm and six months after the,aft to the day really, I erm went into the forces and served in the Army for just over six years. [speaker001:] Right, well did you, you went to school obviously locally? [Albert:] Yes. [speaker001:] When did you leave school? [Albert:] Well, actually I left school, I think it was the either tenth or eleventh of November nineteen thirty one and I went straight into the Transport Department and I think my record will show that I actually started there on the twelfth of November nineteen thirty one. [speaker001:] W w why is it that you went straight from school into the [Albert:] Well er I [speaker001:] Did you apply to go? [Albert:] No I didn't apply, I erm, although I was interviewed for the job. How it turned out was that we er, I was attending the, what was called the Secondary Modern School and we'd moved premises from up to. Well I was a bleeding age but I hadn't got a job and erm I decided to keep on and we actually used a lot of our August summer holidays to help move the stuff from to School. I hung on there until, well my fifteenth birthday was in the July and it was November before I actually left. What happened was I happened to be in the corridors there and the gentleman came in, that's on the Friday afternoon, gentleman came in and asked to see the Headmaster, so I took him along to see who was the Headmaster then, and erm shortly after that I was called up to see and erm asked me if I'd like to apply for this job because had seen me erm bringing me up to, bringing him up to see and he said erm, well what about that young fella who brought me up there and would he like to apply. So I went down there and er well I suppose fell in love with the job right away. It was good, everybody had told me that erm, you know, you didn't get very much money when you left school, about ten shillings and to offer me fifteen shillings I thought was out of this world, so erm [speaker001:] Wh what did you actually start as? [Albert:] Well I suppose a very junior clerk, the first job I was given was, well it's unheard of in this day and age but what they had was what they call a bundi clock and there every driver and conductor had got a key that was inserted in this clock and on it was his personal number, well [clears throat] when he reported for duty, he inserted this key into the clock, turned the handle and stamped on to a piece of paper, a roll of paper, his number and the time he reported and the next day it was my job to go through and record from this piece of paper how many minutes they were late f reporting for duty and if they erm were more than, I think about three or four minutes we had to send them a memo telling them, that's how things were in those days that people were, they toed the line or else. So it was a case there, and course at the end of the day you rolled the little roll up, put elastic round and stood them up in a file and they stood there like little [LAUGHTER] soldiers [] and you could always go back to the actual time, sometimes you found a man hadn't re erm signed on, he'd just gone and joined his bus up in town centre, well you, that was er subject of another letter. So, you know, they were very strict in those days. Erm, that carried on for a while, I thought I was doing very very well, being able to do a job like that. It's the first job [LAUGHTER] I'd ever had [] you see, and then erm I, I suppose my next job was erm recording the bus mileage. In those days they didn't use mileometers, what they did was they took any particular route number and the number of journeys they did, because in those days a bus kept on a route which applied, say between Witton and Rushmere Heath all day, didn't run around like they do nowadays and erm when the schedules were prepared, each bus had got a route number or was placed on a route number, say one Witton, two Witton, three Witton and a copy of its schedule was recorded on another sheet and the mileage, having known what the mileage was and we'd used to obtain that from the Borough Surveyor's Department, er I think it was about nine point one four miles a return trip Witton and Rushmere Heath, er you'd work out how many journeys they did there and say well that bus was due to run a hundred and twenty six miles during the day. Well sometimes they didn't do that f for reason, perhaps a driver missed his duty or there was a defect on the bus and you used to get a record each day of what we call lost mileage or an extra mileage perhaps on the odd occasion when an extra journey was run but erm the lost mileage was recorded and say you had this bus was due to run a hundred and twenty six miles, it didn't for some reason complete its erm hundred percent journey, you'd take that off and then record against that bus that, that run say hundred and twenty miles. Now that was, the reason that all this mileage was done because that mileage is the basis for which all statistical information is recorded. Speeds per mile, pence per mile, cost per mile and everything is erm referred back to the mileage run by an undertaking during its year, week or what have you. It also, in those days was mileage for the tyres was paid on the number of miles run per tyre, so at the end of the month you could record, you knew what tyres were on a certain bus, you knew of how many miles that bus had done, so you recorded that particular tyre on that bus had run so many miles and it was that that we paid for our tyres that way. I think it was round about a ha'penny a mile in those days. We had to pay er there was two lots of erm tyres, there was one set of buses were fitted with and another one with or I forget which it was there but I know those three were involved at some time or other and we used to record the mileage, send it off to them, showing what each bus ran during the month. How many days it was out of service and this that and the other and erm they used to send us an invoice on the mileage run because at the same time we knew what tyres were on the bus we had to inform them of any tyre changes and they kept records the same as us. [speaker001:] So you didn't actually buy the tyres then you were sort of an overseer [Albert:] No we didn't buy tyres, no they were tyre mileage rates and erm mileage was the, tyres were paid for on the mileage run. [speaker001:] How long did that go on for? [Albert:] Oh, it did, went on for up to the time I retired. It maybe still the same now, erm because right up to the time I erm retired we, we had on occasions to pay for the residual value of a tyre, perhaps a bus had been in accident and the tyre had suffered damage which it wasn't possible to repair it or retread it, perhaps a hole had been pierced through the wall, they scrapped that tyre and we had to pay for the residual value, mind you being in accident we could then claim it off the insurance company but, so right up to the time I retired that's how tyres were paid for. I mean we could never have paid for all those tyres and when I retired the erm, they actually had a tyre fitter supplied and paid for by they were the, they took over the whole of the tyre maintenance, they had a tyre fitter down there and he used to go up to depot, change any tyres over there that were necessary, he inspected them each day and changed them over but of course he was notifying erm at the same time. Over the years we didn't have quite so much work to do with recording which tyre was on which bus because he took it over, but it was right up until I retired in, well five years ago that we were paying tyres that way. [speaker001:] Where actually were you working? In this early part, where were you [Albert:] At, I never moved from there. We erm, we hadn't got a lot of room for expansion down there, we were in, when I joined the department it was known as the Ipswich T Electric Supply and Transport Department and er we were in some buildings which were rented from the Electric Supply Department which housed the generators for the electricity, so we hadn't got a lot of room for expansion there, I think we were all confined into about three offices. [speaker001:] What were they like well the facilities there like? [Albert:] Well they were two storey buildings, we had one office which was partitioned off for us clerks and the other half was for the traffic superintendent who was responsible, directly responsible to the general manager of the Ipswich Electric Supply and Transport Departments, so erm and then we had another office adjoining that which was a store room because in those days we used to have to erm record and keep in safekeeping all lost property, [LAUGHTER] no end of things we used to have [] but we, you know, we used to have pigeon holes and lost property that was brought in, was placed into these pigeon holes it'd be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. We'd keep them for a fortnight in those pigeon holes because most people claim stuff if they realize where they'd left it within a day or two and then as the weeks went round we used to take stuff out of there and just lump it altogether, having duly labelled it up and erm record it and used to have tuppence an item if anybody [LAUGHTER] lost anything. Odd gloves we never used to charge for [LAUGHTER] had to get rid of them and er so apart from those two offices er there was immediately above us was a biggish office spreading over these two blocks of offices, called the ticket office and there at that time about eleven girls working in it on tickets. Er nearer the actual bus garage was what was called the depot office and the paying in room. Now the depot office the they in those days controlled what a man's duties were for the next day and a man didn't know what he was on until about twelve o'clock one day what he was on the next day. In those days a man was allocated duties, it is true they tried to arrange that he was on early spread, medium or late duties but it didn't always work out because of holidays, sickness or that but erm there were no restriction on hours. In those days a man would run in about half past eleven at night and he could very well be on an early shift the next day. There was no sort of law against erm employing people without a certain amount of rest and erm that was employed, er that was occupied that office from first thing in the morning when the bus went out from five o'clock [clears throat] and erm he would, the depot clerk would go off round about dinner time, there'd be his relief who came on at nine o'clock and worked with him until dinner time and he'd carry on till five and then we had, what was called, the cashiers come on duty then, there was a cashier and erm a hand. It was a shed hand actually, he didn't, wasn't responsible for cash although he helped the cashier and er, I well remember this erm... in those days the conductor used to either run into depot with the bus or he'd get relief on the Cornhill, he walked down to the depot carrying his cash in his cash bag and then he'd sit in the paying in room and he'd laboriously cam carried out his cash, piling the pennies into stacks, the ha'pennies, the tokens, the sixpences, every denomination. Then he would place them on one of the old time boards which was er board about nine inches by nine inches and then hand that through the pigeon hole to the cashier and in front of him that cashier would laboriously count that money and agree the total there and then. You can well imagine when all the buses ran in between eleven and half past eleven that there was a mad scramble to get their cash in and [LAUGHTER] someone [], very often somebody's cash would get knocked off the board, so there was a scramble on the floor. But that's how cash was counted in those days and erm, the waybill was marked to agree with a man's statement of what his cash added up to and then the cash next day was counted up bolt because there was Priory Heath to take care of, although that wasn't a media when I first went down there, that opened later on, but there was the two got to be married together and then conveyed to the bank the next day, or, on the Monday if it was a Saturday or Sunday. But that sort of thing went on in those days, money was physically handled all the time. It was in the later days that you gradually got the... the buses were then fitted with these, these safes, they've got the safes on the ticket machines on the buses, whereby every man's cash working on that bus that day went into a vault on the bus. The vaults were then changed at night or when the bus had finished service and then were counted by a different means, they were counted by machine coin counters and er so, instead of say erm what, sixty or seventy conductors paying in their money, this was all erm on the bus, so there may have been five or six drivers had worked that bus that day and all the takings he'd taken during the time was all in this night safe in this vault. So er, you know, things did progress a great deal. [speaker001:] With so much cash about, was there any, any problems with security? [Albert:] No, because er I always put it down to the fact that most of our takings were in coin, it was very seldom that you had a pound note, you possibly had a ten pound note in those days but most of it was coinage and the cash when it was married up, was put into steel bound wooden boxes. They was made that two men had to lift 'em, so there was hardly likely that any thief was gonna get in there and run off with one of these boxes cos you'd never lift it. So, you know, it, it, it, never at any time was paper money to the fore, you didn't get very much. The most time was on Fridays when the drivers and conductors or fitters, everybody used to get their pay packet which was mostly in notes they would immediately go to the depot and say, can I [LAUGHTER] change it []. So that's, that's the only time that we really had lots and lots of notes. [speaker001:] Did you have to wear a uniform to go to work? [Albert:] Not me, no the drivers and conductors and inspectors, they had a uniform and it was seen that they did wear it. Just before my time down there, if a man reported for work with a dirty collar or something like that you were sent home. He wasn't allowed to work that day, so people turned up in a white shirt and tie and looking smart, they had to wear uniforms even a cap but unfortunately nowadays, although a lot of the I have seen quite a few people their uniform has changed since I left, but erm they do come to work in very very casual work now. Casual wear, jeans and [LAUGHTER] open necked shirts [], no caps,no [speaker001:] Mm. [Albert:] but erm [speaker001:] There was no, no uniform for the office, so you had to provide your own? [Albert:] No, no just went in ordinary civilian wear, girls sometimes had some overalls because they were handling the ticket boxes, they were metal, they got wet, they rusted up and that was a filthy job for there was really, in those days it was a two box system, a man drew his box which contained a certain amount of tickets of different variable classes and erm, it was listed on a waybill, he was given a half an hour to check his box and join his bus at town centre. So he, he sat in the mess room there and checked his box against the tickets which were shown on the waybill. If he agreed it he signed it and put the to which that was called a total waybill. He placed it in the box and that eventually returned itself to the ticket office. He also had another er, what we call a journey waybill and that, he used to record on there at each termini he used to record the time and the ticket numbers that he'd got in his rack at that particular time, so it could be seen between certain times that a ticket perhaps was sold between Witton and Rushmere Heath. We didn't ask them to do Electric House because that would have meant that you'd gotta have enough lines there to take a bus timing every half an hour because Witton, well every quarter of an hour really. Witton to Electric House quarter of an hour, Electric House to Rushmere Heath, quarter of an hour and it did the reverse direction. So it meant every quarter of an hour you were asking a man to record his numbers, so we boiled it down to termini. Witton, Rushmere, Vauxhall Road, London Road and those sort of places. So that was the journey waybill and that was handed in at the end of the day and from that and a visual check of the tickets that were returned by him to the ticket office, they could tell which tickets were missing and therefore they were sold to him and er... there be, there was the odd shortages but in those days if anybody was short in his takings by, I think it was about sixpence in those days, he was the subject of a another warning by letter and if he persisted, well then he was brought in to see the Traffic Superintendent who erm, could suspend him for two or three days, so he lost pay for two or three days. Discipline was very very strict in those days but of course with the war coming on and lots of those men going to the forces, things changed drastically during that time and discipline was somewhat more lax after the war. Every one of those men who went in the forces, who lived to tell the tale, was given their jobs back when they came back, because their jobs were replaced by women during the war, drivers and conductors, they were replaced by women and as the men came back, so the women were paid off, so everybody who came back from the war was given their job back. [speaker001:] So before the war y you, you did the mileages and you did the clocking on and clocking off [Albert:] Yes yes. [speaker001:] What other jobs did you do? [Albert:] Well lost property, I already touched on, that was one of my jobs and then [clears throat] erm, we called it the ticket book, that was for want of some other name I suppose. It was the record per week of the different classes of tickets that were sold. Penny, tuppence, three ha'penny returns and every denomination of tickets was recorded so that you so showed the erm number of tickets, erm it was possible for a at the end of the week to record what the takings were, per route and the mileage and so, as I told you before, the mileage played a great importance in that you were able to say how much that route was producing per mile run and the erm, [LAUGHTER] in those days [] it, the erm [clears throat] the receipts worked out, daily receipts, weekly receipts and the progressive total in that year, were always published by the Ipswich Evening Star, round about Tuesday or Wednesday and if you missed them, there'd be somebo member of the public ringing up to why, answer why [LAUGHTER] you hadn't put it in [], it was, you know, looked upon then you were, were public transport and the public [LAUGHTER] team [] that you belonged to them. They they thought they had the right to boss you around. I pay for your salaries, cos we were, in those days, on the rates. Any erm deficiency at the end of the financial year was made up by a rate demand, erm so i the it wasn't the same in all municipal undertakings, some of them were allowed to carry forward their balances but Ipswich, whether it was erm, er by law or er a, oh I don't know what it be, perhaps needed that they got to be, the erm balance of the year had to be balanced at the end of the year, so you had a rate demand and of course that rate demand went on to the next year's rates. So i more often than not we were on the rates and of course the public say, oh I'm paying your [LAUGHTER] salaries []. [speaker001:] So you can imagine that erm, er during the war of course,th they buses made because they made to the trolley buses made plenty of money because erm, labour was cheap and erm, you had the soldiers they were, lot of them, no other form of transport, petrol rationing and that, so the buses really did come into their own during the war. [clears throat] du during this during, before the war, it was trolley buses? [Albert:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] When did the motor buses come in? [Albert:] I think the first ones we had were about nineteen thirty six I believe. My memory doesn't er, is not all that clear on it. But there were certainly trolley buses when I went there in nineteen thirty one and trolley buses first came in in nineteen twenty three and it was all trolley buses by nineteen twenty six. Erm, motor buses came in, I, I can't recall, I think now on reflection that it was after the war, motor buses came in. Erm nineteen forty eight, forty nine, something like that. I, I couldn't be adamant about the date of those but er c the reason that motor buses came in is because it was too costly to extend trolley bus routes. [speaker001:] With, with putting up new, new cables? [Albert:] Yes,you you've got to extend the route, well of course you've got to put up, trolley poles every for about forty yards and then of course there was two lengths of trolley wire that had to go because as you know trolley buses used to have two arms, positive and negative supply and er, of course the bus had to come back er alongside the premiu the outward route, it come on, so you had four wires up there and the cost of copper wire was terrific so the motor buses were developed and we expenim experimented with the buses on, on extensions mainly but when the extensions were finished we then begradged because trolley wires were then beginning to wear out, rather than replace them they would convert a trolley route into a bus route, and erm because the erm, there was a lot of people hated to see the demise of the trolley buses because they were so clean and silent [LAUGHTER] and the buses came, you got the deal sloke and lumbering of the old engines, that a lot of people hated to see the trolley buses go but cos that was the, the reason that they went. They were very very reliable because erm, the motive power was in a motor, electric motor, not a lot of parts to go wrong but er once you started the motor buses they had to send people away to to be taught the mechanics of motor buses, so you had the old die-hards of the fetters, trolley buses, who never did take to motor buses and course the younger ones came into their own then, who were able to adapt to the modern motor bus. [speaker001:] Do you remember what you were paid at the outbreak of the war? [Albert:] Well, yes, I, I, I did merely remark about it, I think I got fifteen shillings per week. [speaker001:] That was when you started in nineteen thirty one? [Albert:] Yeah, when I started in nineteen thirty one and in those days you got a rise every six months and I got a one and three rise after they'd been there six months and at the year I was earning seventeen and six. Now I got married in nineteen thirty nine and my wage then was forty eight and sixpence and that's how my wages were and erm [speaker001:] How did that wage compare to the, to drivers and, and conductors? [Albert:] Well it was a wee bit under because I was only an office clerk, I, I wasn't the junior but by then had come there and there were other, other clerks, some girls who'd come into the office and I'd got a little bit of step up you see and took over a little bit more important work, erm, I did just before I went in the Army have a dabble at erm running times, that was preparing the schedules for buses. For some unknown reason before the war we used to have a route change every year. If the buses ran from Bramford Road to Lattice Barn one year, they'd decide they'd send them from Bramford Road to Bourne Bridge the next. They were always changing them to try and balance up the take I suppose, on each, each leg of the route and there was always was the chief clerk then and him and I got on very well together and he really initiated me into running times. I didn't do very important part of it because erm, it was, sometimes you'd get the same sort of schedule. A bus would repeat itself every hour and he'd say, run that one down, or that was running it down hour after hour until about seven o'clock when certain buses were run in. The other buses were either spread out in their running time or cut down to form the evening frequency which was less than what it was during the peak time and so I, you know, I'd, I'd left it at then, when I went in the forces then, he carried on. I came out of the forces, he was only waiting for the time that I came out, for him to retire. He hung on until I came out and I was given embarkation leave or demob leave rather and I didn't even have a chance to have that, they wanted me down there so quickly, I think I came out of the forces one week and I was working down there the following week because was way past his retiring age. Though er, I really got into that, I was forced into it, I never had a time to think about it, I was wanted there, I who was the Traffic Superintendent then. He was very very tolerant with me and he brought me back into it without a lot of undue pressure and erm because transport wasn't my life but I'd sort of dedicated myself to it. I, I got stuck in, I used to bring stuff home at night to work on and er there were no exams to sit then, you just sort or did it by, you either could or you couldn't do it. [speaker001:] That's on disk. W w w what did you actually do during the war? went away? [Albert:] Well [speaker001:] Is that transport related or [Albert:] No, it wasn't transport related, I knew that my, my group, because everybody was placed in a certain group by age and, er I knew that I was due to go and I thought oh well this is hanging around you sort of wanted to get on with it. I volunteered for the Grenadier Guards, well I had to go to Chelsea Barracks and after a week there, they decided that I wasn't medically fit for them, although the doctor or the M O at the Ipswich Recruiting Officer said, oh yes, you're A one you'll be fine for the guard but cos I was fairly well built, stature wise. Oh, yes, you're just the sort of bloke we're looking for for the guards. So I fell for it and I volunteered for the Guards, but after a week, they decided I, I'd got flat feet [LAUGHTER] which wasn't [] very good for slamming your foot down as the guards demanded in those days. I came back on the Friday night and erm, well I've packed my job in at the Transport Department, I better go down to the Recruiting Office and see what else. Well, having been downgraded to A two from A one erm I said well what else can I volunteer for, cos I didn't fancy going back to work and then being called up again. So I erm, I erm, was put into the Royal Army Pay Corp and posted up to Barnet, North London and I was there for quite a while, we all transferred down to Winchester. Well we went into the Rifle Brigade Barracks at Winchester and used to work out at a big house outside of Winchester so we had to march out there and then at the time of Dunkirk, they were looking for places to put all the soldiers that they'd brought and er, we were cleared out of Barnet, er out of Winchester Barracks and posted up to Nottingham and we worked in the factory, which was taken over by the Army then and erm, and then whilst there, I suppose that was about nineteen what, about nineteen fo coming up to nineteen forty two, they decided to have a recheck or rethink on medicals, so we were all subject to another medical and they put me back to A one and says, right we're getting rid of all A one personnel out of the Pay Corp, you have a choice Royal Army Ordnance Corp or the Royal Artillery. Well my brother was in the Artillery and I thought well it be nice if I can get with him but that didn't work out that way. I was posted to the er ack-ack brigade [LAUGHTER] and I was posted to Norwich, just at Norwich, Coldershaw really. At the Brigade H Q. Having served as sort of er apprentice there as an artillery clerk, I was put, posted up to Woolwich to go through a erm clerk's course. I was up there for six weeks, I passed the course and was posted back to Brigade H Q to a wider posting to a regiment. My posting came through and I was [LAUGHTER] posted [] to Swordstone this side of Norwich, so I was still quids in, I could get home once a week, twenty four hour pass and then erm after a while erm, having served at Regiment, I was posted up to, as the Sergeant Artillery Clerk with the Brigade, an ack-ack brigade up at Coventry, just outside Coventry and then of course the A T S were coming in, were coming in in quite large numbers then and they were replacing male personnel and then I was posted abroad and I went to Egypt where I was there again, fortunate enough, I suppose, to go into the echelon, the second echelon which was the Records Office of all the forces or the armoured personnel in the Middle East and I worked there until I was actually demobbed from there but I was out in Egypt there for two, just over two years, came back to Northampton where I was finally demobbed and allowed to come home and as I said I came home one week and I was back at work the next. So I was actually messing around with the Tax Officer for quite a while because I was on demob leave and I was also [LAUGHTER] working [] so he wasn't gonna let me have two lots of [LAUGHTER] sa [] wages. [speaker001:] How had th the transport changed then in that period you were away, sort of five years? What were the changes that you noticed? [Albert:] Well, [speaker001:] Ha had things been allowed to run down over the war? [Albert:] No, no but th erm erm, the only real difference was that lots and lots of the trolley buses were of the utility type. They were made to wartime restrictions, wooden seats and erm mass produced really, erm there was none of the erm cushioned seats at all, that were a part of the feature during th before the war. We had lots and lots of trolley buses and er who was the General Manager had sought powers to run all over Ipswich. Oh the by-pass road, you know the north northern part of Ipswich, along the by-pass and of course had ordered trolley buses, because you had to order 'em about two years ahead of time, erm, to take care of that but it didn't materialize and we had a surplus of buses and some of them were sold off, I think some went to Walsall, some to Wolverhampton and er I, I think it was one of those that was sold to Wals Woolwich, figured in the national newspapers that had toppled over. It er gone on its side but erm, I da I wouldn't say that things had deteriorated that much. It was erm, they had expanded, they brought in the Clapgut Lane route during the war. As they say things were different during the war. If it was er public transport, certain facilities were afforded to public transport which went to private under enterprise erm because of the nature of taking factory workers to the ammunition factories and such like. But I wouldn't say that er, that it had deteriorated. Mind you the, the erm, the wages had risen [clears throat] quite a bit during the time. I was fortunate in that I was married before the war and the Ipswich Council had decided that married men's wages would be made up. Erm, so I was constantly getting rises, less my service pay and erm it got to a state there where sometimes my service pay was more than what the erm salary I would have got at home was and my wife had to pay to keep my superannuation live. She had to [speaker001:] You turn it up. [Albert:] fears I er I'm coming back from the forces I went into the main job, taking over from the previous scheduled clerk by breaking the schedules and the duties. The duties being erm what a man had to do to cover that er period of that scheduling. As I said before a bus was on a certain route number, say you had one Witton what was had now and then, well that [clears throat] that ran from six o'clock in the morning perhaps till eleven o'clock at night. Now that had to be manned by a driver and a conductor for that day. Well obviously he couldn't work six in the morning till eleven at night. So you had to have, in that day erm, about five men to cover one bus right the way through, can you just a moment. Five men during the whole day. Erm why I say five men, you might think that peculiar because there was a man and a conductor each time but we used to reckon that two buses, full-time buses would be scheduled by te or run by ten men because there one man would come off at nine o'clock, have a relief of hour and fifteen minutes and then another one would take over from him. So it's er, how we used to marry them up was... erm two long buses as we called would take ten men to do five duties. Erm, then the erm, the insistence of the driver's conductors was they didn't like the long periods of duty [cough] they erm, they wanted the new set up so I introduced what we call straight duties, narrowed the relief portion, so they didn't go home for a meal, they had about a half an hour off, so they were able to get their eight hour duty done in a shorter period and they'd probably finish about two instead of half past three, four o'clock. [cough] [speaker001:] At this time then after the war, how many vehicles were there running? [Albert:] Oh dear [clears throat] I suppose seventy odd a day. [speaker001:] And how many men would that, would you employ? [Albert:] I think at erm, at the peak time there was about two hundred and twenty six drivers and conductors. Erm, when, when I came back out the forces, a man's guaranteed week was a forty hour, forty eight hour week. It went down to forty six, they negotiated things that er reduced it to forty six. It went down to forty four, forty two and now I believe they are on a forty hour week. Whether they've got down to thirty eight, I don't know but it was a forty hour week when I finally left. So and then erm, of course they start bringing in one man buses and the conductors were no longer required. Now er I could make a point here that when they introduced one man operated buses, they thought they were on to a new thing but one man operated buses were in this town before the war. Trolley buses had one man to do it. Now they thought they were in a new thing in nineteen fifties when they brought in one man operated buses but they weren't. [speaker001:] There's only one person on a trolley bus, [Albert:] Yes. [speaker001:] there's no conductor then? [Albert:] The, they used to put a conductor on for peak time and then about nine o'clock the rear door was closed and the driver took over issuing tickets, taking money and then perhaps the conductor would come on from about twelve or two and then again, perhaps from half past four till half past six. So a conductor's duty weren't very very nice then, probably three piece duties, which were spread duties but you know people thought they were bringing in a wonderful thing to be one man operated but it was before the war that we had one man operated buses. Cos I remember the duties, there used to be a driver you would get more pay for bringing the bus, one man, so underneath each duty was just how many, how many hours he was one man and how many two men. So it's, it wasn't a new thing when they brought but nevertheless erm that went on and on and on then and er cos the staff really went down, the requirements for staff went down and erm I, I think erm, they got it down when I left there to round about a hundred and forty six staff was, was all that was required. [speaker001:] Mm how many were, were in the office at this time? Was the clerical work still there? [Albert:] B no erm the, the clerical erm staff on the erm, shall we say the traffic side increased a bit because er there was mo more and more demanding work but the ticket office, they went down, erm I have mentioned perhaps before that they had the two box system and there was about eleven, twelve, thirteen girls in there and their duty was to check a box that had been used one day, stock it up with tickets, get it ready for the day after. So there was constantly two books, two boxes going. At the same time they had on Mondays and Tuesday we used to sell weekly tickets, so they had to go out in another box on Mondays and Tuesdays. Then there was plenty of work for them but then when the erm, the one man buses really got going and they introduced the night safe on the buses, the ticket office was cut drastically, they didn't need to have all this information. We had waybills that we could extract this information from but it wasn't so accurate because man wasn't required to record the erm numbers of each class of ticket. All we were concerned was, was the total ticket registers. We could get certain information recorded from the ticket machines, of just how many of different types of tickets were issued because what we'd, they had double readings. A man when he issued say two, two tuppeny tickets, there were two tuppeny tickets but he pushed a little lever and issued two tuppeny tickets which came out almost together, that was a fourpenny fare and that would record once [speaker001:] Mm. [Albert:] on little numerator. So we were able to tell how many tickets of certain classes were sold each day but not route by route, we'd lost that that facility because the waybills just weren't big enough and of course the,wa everything got mechanical but now I mean I don't profess to know anything about what happens now but I was introduced to it when I went down there for a retirement [clears throat] and believe me it's, it's all electronics now they can tell how a ticket machine is issuing tickets at any particular one day by this, this electronic business, this computers. So they really brought it down to a very fine art now. [speaker001:] Was the,wh were there trade unions in, in, in the Transport Department at this time, were they quite active? [Albert:] Oh yes, yes the erm, the main one was the Transport and General Workers' Union which erm, did all the drivers, conductors and cleaners and semi-skilled staff but erm you had the erm N U V B which is the National Union and Vehicle Builders and of course you had the Electrical Trades People, so they, they were all working in there but the main one covering most of the men was the Transport and General Workers' Union. Now the office staff, there was no closed shop there but our union was NALGO. The National Association of Local Government Officers. I don't know whether you in. Well that was the, the erm union for us, erm I think erm one of the great assets of being in public transport was that we were in a local erm pension scheme, erm when, when we in the office started, we had to wait until we were eighteen and then we had to wait for a vacancy because there was a limited number of people that the Council were prepared to back by paying a similar amount. Drivers and conductors had to wait three years, they had to be employed three years before they were accepted into the pension scheme but you know, believe me I'm glad that I paid in for it. It was a bit of a pill at the time and y used to pay a shilling in the pound, well a shilling was [LAUGHTER] a lot more valuable [] than it is now and erm I used to begrudge paying in it forty eight and sixpence but it does provide the, well the pleasures of life now, whereby the pens the ordinary old age pension wouldn't. Erm I told you that erm during the war if my army wage went above what the recorded salary was, my wife had to pay to keep the superannuation going and when I see the buses now running around, they seem to run everywhere I don't on earth what kind of running board they've got because in my day it was so well regulated that erm you just recorded certain intermediate stages and I quote Witton and Rushmere you get, used to get Witton Terminus, Norwich Road Bridge, Sherrington Road, Barret Corner, Electric House and you gave an indication of the time that those buses should be passing those times. Er and then we'd used to repeat right the way through the day, we had a bus say for sixteen hours and it erm repeated itself every hour [LAUGHTER] and that was boring job [] just writing it down and repeating it. [speaker001:] So wh what was a running board then? [Albert:] A running board was the information given to the driver of what, where he was expected to run, what time he was expected to leave the various termini. They w it's erm,lo [speaker001:] They were prepared by the office and given to each driver daily? [Albert:] Well there were running boards, they were, they were written out, well eventually,we were typed out but they were written out and first of all... it was really funny we used to size them on to these wooden boards, let that dry, then varnish them and that board was used day in day out. A man used to hand it back in when the bus ran in and it was given out the next day. It eventually got that they were typed and put into cellophane covers which made it a lot easier. It was funny in my day, when I first started there you used to get, mix up some size and er in a pot, in a proper pot and take it down into the mess room and put it on the stove, coal stove, heat it up and [LAUGHTER] you let it boil over there was a terrific smell about the place [] you can imagine, the size but that's what we used to do in those days. Things were much easier then but th all these running boards were, were interpreted, if that's the right word, on the master scheduling. Now you used to say perhaps there's an hourly service, er an hourly run from Witton to Rushmere and back again and you wanted a ten minute service. Well that would take six buses to do that. Six tens being sixty and they were all prepared in a master schedule, you'd write down twelve o'clock, twelve ten, twelve twenty, erm that sort of thing you see [speaker001:] Mm. [Albert:] and then each, that would take six buses, one, two, three, four, five, six Wittons we used to call them and then the running board was a copy from that of all what number one Witton was gotta do. So from a mass master timetable, each bus, route number was interpreted on to a what we called a running board and er it was that that the driver ran to. [clears throat] You got complications some time in that erm when the Six A Twos, the Fours and the Six B routes were running erm it was found sometimes that if you married them together, did a Six A trip one time a Six B, a Two and Four, you could save what we call a bus, you could save a whole bus by marrying them together because routes were only of thirty minute duration from Electric House out to Six A R Gainsborough and back again was, was half an hour. Now [clears throat] you could have two buses doing that and forming fifteen minute service because one bus went out in thirty minutes another one fifteen minutes behind it, that came back so that the first bus was able to do the third one. Now if you want to decrease the frequency, say at evenings, and you wanted a twenty minute service, you can see that you're in all kinds of muddle. It was fifty, it's thirty minutes to do the run, you only wanted a bus to repeat itself every forty minutes, so you got ten minutes to waste. You couldn't afford to have drivers sitting around for ten minutes not doing anything, so you married these routes up together and were able to, by manipulation, get them to a more economical run. Er, but even so the running boards did look very complicated because on one half an hour he'd probably go and do a Six A run, another one a Six B run, a Two and a Four. [LAUGHTER] You can imagine that some drivers er went the wrong way, and it was just that they, they just didn't concentrate on the run but nowadays they seem to run all over the town. So how on earth they keep them to a schedule I do not know but I don't want to know now. [speaker001:] What was the social life like, was there a social club? [Albert:] There was a very very strong social club. was the General Manager then, he was very very keen on sport and erm in nineteen thirty eight, er saw the opening of the erm sports ground at Barragh Close, Flindburgh Road. I remember because in nineteen thirty eight, er we were scheduled to have an opening in about the September and we got a team coming down to play us at football and we were going to have a social evening, darts and that, at, in the evening and of course at that particular time, the war was a definite threat. You remember Chamberlain [speaker001:] Yes [Albert:] and his white piece of paper, so everything was cancelled. Er as regards to the team that was gonna come down from London and I was Secretary of the Football Club at that time. said erm, oh we must have something. So I, I rang the Power Station people at Norwich and they sent up a team to open it. So it was in nineteen thirty eight that the, the erm sports ground at Priory Heath was opened. Now erm was the instigator of the Ipswich Interfirm Cup and erm, in those days if there was any erm going begging at Portman Road, would give them a job on the, the gangs. The electricity cable laying to give 'em a job so you could play for the Ipswich Electric Supply Team and we had a jolly good team, we won the cup for the first three years that it was in being but the finals used to be on Portman Road and course that was in those days a thing to be looked forward to. Erm there was the cricket, there was bowls, tennis, swimming section, gardening section. The swimming section was more or less brought back to mind to me the other day when they showed the old Stoke bathing place. Though we u that was over Stoke Worstead Road way, when we used to have the open air swimming pool there. It was only water that was let into a confined space but we had a Sports Association which had a section for the swimming and er I way remember bought a couple of old single decker buses from somewhere, I don't know where and he had them fitted out and rigged up at Stoke Bathing Place, especially for us to go there and change and w we did have quite a good strong section, we used to hold our, an annual what you call a regatta, or, no not a regatta but er in the St Matthew's Swimming Baths a festival, a swimming festival a gala, yes [speaker001:] Mm. [Albert:] and you know we could, in those days because of the number of people employed being Electric Supply and Transport, we could erm, manage to keep it a viable proposition for an evening's entertainment then and erm, you probably can turn this up in the, the Star they're showing erm as he was then, one of the drivers swimming from erm Stoke Bathing Place to Felixstowe. Er I was, I think I've got pictures about it somewhere or tha that was in the Evening Star not so very many years ago. They've got pictures of it, of him preparing all greased up. It was our, our answer to [LAUGHTER] cross channel swimming []. He, he did it once or twice, had to give up when he got to the mouth of the River Orwell because he mistimed the currents but he did, he did eventually do it from Stoke Bathing Place to Felixstowe. It was a long swim in those days. [speaker001:] At what stage did they split the power and the transport? [Albert:] Oh,a at nineteen forty eight they split up the electric supply and the three was nationalized and erm it, it just went out of the control of the local councils, it was government controlled then and there was a distinct possibility that the transport section would be sold off to private enterprise and the only private enterprise that was capable of taking over then was the Eastern Counties but erm I think the, the erm local council having had the transport under their wing for so many years, fought off that erm feeling and erm they kept with it and er, of course all the accountancy went to the Borough Treasurer and the certain members of clerks from the Borough Treasurers, which was at in those days, er seconded on to transport accounts. So we were really answerable to the Ipswich Borough Council, rather than to private enterprise which some people really wanted to sell us off as being a, you know, a weight round their necks because if we didn't make a lot of money after the war, the accounts would show that we were making a deficiency every year and erm, well there was no way that you could recoup it because our routes weren't really long enough to charge lots of fares erm, maybe tuppence was the town centre to the extreme termini [speaker001:] Mm [Albert:] and, and you know you couldn't get a lot of money, although of course nationally, the rates of pay were governed nationally, they were going up and up and up and there was no way that we could keep pace, we couldn't keep on increasing the tuppeny fare. They are increased now obviously but erm, you know to put anything on a tuppeny fare then was well a ha'penny which was twenty five percent on terrible, every year we were going for a fare increase and in those days you really had to go through the Traffic Commissioners. You had to go to Cambridge. Loads and loads of information had to be supplied. You had to satisfy the Traffic Commissioners, that what you are proposing would, would answer the cause, wouldn't give rise to erm great hardships to the travelling public and erm oh you're preparing a fare increase about a year before it actually came up to, in front of the Commissioners and then he would erm, perhaps make some alterations or give you a date when you could apply. You had to then notify the public at least twenty f twenty four I, no fourteen days before it was due to come in. Everybody then had the right to make erm protests against this and could be heard at Cambridge, protesting about fare increases. So i it wasn't a very easy thing then to get them and as I say you'd be preparing a fare increase which, perhaps a ha'penny on certain fares and a penny on fares above a certain range and you had to allow for depreciation, or resistance in the public travelling but er as long as you could always bring in a little extra from a fare increase it was worthwhile going forward. As I say it was very very difficult in those days, you had to satisfy the Traffic Commissions. [speaker001:] So,i in the fifties across to be one man operated buses? [Albert:] Yes. [speaker001:] What were the changes that followed that, that then? How did it develop in the sixties? Was it, the town was growing then? [Albert:] Well the town was growing then. As I said the er, the trolley buses were being phased out and the buses, the motor buses were being used more than ever and I don't know the date of the last trolley bus running but I well remember it being reported time, it was the erm, bus was packed on its last journey from Electric House and people were photographing it. It was its last run and it finished up at Priory Heath... erm [clears throat] was on the Gainsborough route. The last ones to be motorized and erm [speaker001:] Why those routes? [Albert:] Well I suppose it because, as I told you, those four routes were always treated as a separate entity because they were on, there were possible chances of marrying those routes together to get them to run the most economical way. [clears throat] There was four routes there now and we had as many as ten buses operating those four, so it meant they were left, you couldn't sort of segregate them. You couldn't say well we will have motor buses on the fourth and not the other three because they were so closely interwoven. So that they got to all go off at once. So all the other routes were motorized and then those when we got a, a big batch of motor buses come in. It then erm, they would, they went out in one complete entity you see and the trolley wires were just taken down. Erm, motor buses very very expensive. Another thing you might not realize is that erm, erm when you ordered motor buses you had to get authority from the Ministry of Transport and you used to appl apply for a bus grant. Now in its infancy we used to get a fifty percent grant, that was the price of the bus was halved at, Ministry would pay. It got phased out so that the Ministry didn't pay anything at all but [clears throat] to get this grant you had to keep tremendous records [cough] copies of invoices and you had to get er and the bus grant and the, the permission from them. It was very difficult to get these things but of course erm, it did when you were talking about seventy two thousand pound for each bus. [LAUGHTER] You were glad to get half of it [] [speaker001:] Yes. [Albert:] [clears throat] cos trolley buses, in this town were... really the erm well I suppose they really came about, rather than motor buses right at the start because built trolley buses and so did of Laiston. You had er, in fact used to use our overhead, to erm test their chassis before they went to the body makers. If they were going to a different body maker anyway. So they, [speaker001:] Mm. [Albert:] we used to charge them for using our overhead... and erm, so I suppose trolley buses were used here because it was so convenient. right on the doorstep making them. [speaker001:] Yes supply them. [Albert:] I, I, it's in or this may be a little bit disjointed to want an chronologically tell you everything that's happened but there are some of the highlights in my life. The sports section that you, you talk you harped on a little while ago. It was a thriving thing and, but when electric supply in nineteen forty eight went nationalized, we lost a lot of members and er, we did try to carry it on, just Ipswich Borough Transport. I think the snooker section, the table section they're still flourishing actually but as regards to football, you just hadn't got enough members. You, you can't have a transport football team because you can't get enough of us together at one time cos they're working you see, when people want to go to and from work... but er [speaker001:] So you, you came up for retirement what in nineteen [Albert:] Well it's er I've been retired five years now, that was eighty two, yes. I, I worked up to the end of May and because of accrued leave I er [clears throat] I left then. My actual retirement date was the twenty second of July. I had worked there, and that was when I was sixty five, so I'd worked there all my working life, apart from the, the war years... and had served under quite a number of people really. When I first went there we had who was a tall heavy built man and you walk well I did, I walked in fear of my life. If I could get away from him, not talk to him I was happy but if he spoke to me I was ju literally shake in me shoes, he gave you that, he was that erm type of man, although he was kind enough really, but he was really gruff. Bowler hat, little moustache and spats and when you came through the shed, my God, nobody slacked cos [LAUGHTER] he had eyes everywhere [] and the Traffic Superintendent was, he was directly responsible to him... erm then erm retired and erm then retired during the war and they had another fella come in from he came from away. He wasn't there all that time. I think he had a little bit of ill health and my immediate superior took over as Traffic Superintendent and he was there throughout the war and when I came out he was my boss and er you see and er and then in nineteen forty eight was made Transport Manager, because as you say we had to split from Electric Supply and he carried on until erm nineteen seventy two and erm, we had government reorganization and erm [clears throat] they did away with people like the Town Clerk and Transport Manager and erm erm was retired, early retirement, the same as the Town Clerk and erm they brought in a General Manager from away and brought in more staff with him and that was came in and er so I then applied for the position, which was going, there was, there was Traffic Superintendent was going er Chief Administration Officer, Chief Engineer and erm er Bodywork Maintenance Superintendent. All those positions were going for want of an application, so I applied and because brought in people who he knew, certain of them were automatically filled but they want the Chief Administration Officer, so I applied and really I don't kid myself that I got it because of my qualification because I hadn't got any letters after my name. [speaker001:] Mm. [Albert:] I think I got it because of my local knowledge and the that gave him the facility of being able to carry on without interruption. If you'd had all people come in and try to bring in new ideas on to an old system, I don't think it would have worked. So they had me as continuity and I got the job and it was a bit of a struggle because I'd always been traffic, traffic at work but this was a little bit different in that if you had to do more accountancy and I had to pick it up. I had a lot of help from people and erm well I'm fairly adaptable and I sort of took over this job of Chief Administrator's Assistant. Sorry Chief Administrator Officer and I had to provide quite a lot of statistical information which I'd never done before but nevertheless I, I made a fairly reasonable job of it, I had an assistant and erm... I, I think I got fairly well known amongst the councillors and people who mattered and then went. He had some ill health erm he, he was, they brought in a bloke who was retired from some place up north, Sheffield I think it was. They brought him back as a Caretaker to General Manager and really I didn't see eye to eye with him. He came in with the ideas, give the drivers and conductors everything they asked for whereby my training had always been to only give them what they were really entitled to, not give them anything extra but he gave them the earth and that erm didn't sort of go very well for the new Manager who came in, he had a lot of undoing to do there, that this fella had given away, in his six or seven weeks there. In fact, you know, he gave the drivers and conductors a lot more than what they were really entitled to but conduct [speaker001:] What sort of things? [Albert:] Well, he did there in, in the various agreements there, there were scheduling anomalies which erm, if they... I can't recall the exact wording now but if they er, their average wage, working week was between forty two and forty four hours, they had to get make up pay and all that sort of thing. Well we argued that erm, they weren't entitled to it. We read the, read the agreements differently to what they did but he'd lean towards the drivers, conductors and he gave away a lot of what had tried to erm stop them from having because they weren't really entitled to it but he saw differently and gave it away and course once you've given it away you, no way of retracting it, but then came in and, well, I mean he was a real transport man, his, his vision and his ideas were really good and he made it what it is today. He was really and, lovely man to work with. He was genuine, he appreciated everything you did and I don't think you get a better manager and of course he's now under this new Transport Act when transport, this was erm, was nationalized isn't it? He, that he's now a Director of this Ipswich Buses and I don't think you can get a better man to do it because he is heart and soul in transport, he, the things that he brought in, the different innovations that he brought in were good, I mean he brought in, he brought in all this erm operated vaults and all that sort of thing and all this electronic gear that they are working now. Mm. [speaker001:] So you, you think you had er, er er you know go back, well looking back on it. Quite happy with the way it's all gone? [Albert:] Oh yes, I had a good life. I, I think er erm when I first started down there, it was a job, I thought well this is a good job fifteen bob a week, that's, that's a lot more than some of the other boys who'd left school got, they were twelve and six you see and erm, I think erm I came back out of the forces and took over more responsible jobs, I don't think I could have gone to anything else but transport. You were with the public, direct contact with the public and er I would hate to have been sat in an office and just looked at four walls. I, I used to roam around the building. Go and talk to the fitters, interest myself in what made buses work and how they worked when down in the pits. I, I couldn't bear to have sit in four walls and not [LAUGHTER] move [] [speaker001:] Yes [Albert:] from the desk. It, I think I had a good life there and I've got no regrets... I think to be public transport is, is a good thing. Anything to do with the public. [speaker001:] Oh yes, right. [Albert:] You get, you know the slings and arrows but they don't hurt you, you, you get a lot more people who appreciate what you do than slings and bats. [speaker001:] Oh well. Thank you very much [Albert:] [clears throat] Well I, I don't whether that's of much interest to anybody. Probably listening to it, it probably sound like a drill [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] thank you very much indeed. [Albert:] Yes.

[speaker001:] would you like to start off by telling us when you joined County Council, in which department? [speaker002:] Mm, it was the eleventh of October nineteen thirty nine. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It was a Michaelmas Day or at least the old erm Quarter Day for paying rents and erm it was generally known in those days as muck spreading because erm it was [LAUGHTER] [] usual time for erm, the farm workers to get ready for the winter ploughing. Anyway, if I could just erm describe how I managed to get there in the first place, which was all a matter of luck I suppose as much as anything... erm I... went to the East Anglian schools for erm blind and deaf children at Gorleston on Sea from nineteen twenty eight to nineteen thirty six, erm, in those days erm education for the... er disabled er continued until sixteen. They always assumed that er, the disabled were two years behind the normal child so that er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] we had to spend [] a couple of years erm longer at school. Erm, I never had any idea as to what I might do when I left school, in fact erm, apart from basket making and er one or two manual skills of that sort erm, there wasn't much available. But erm, it was suggested... about a year or so before I left, that I might take what was called The Gardeners Scholarship to erm The Royal College for the Blind, which in those days was at erm Upper Norwood S E nineteen and erm so erm I had no objections, I didn't, [LAUGHTER] I didn't [] see any future at all in it anyway, but erm I took this erm scholarship examination, went up to the R N C to... work erm some papers and to be interviewed and erm, much to my surprise they erm offered me one of these scholarships which was worth forty pounds a year for three years in the Commercial Department of the College which was an innovation really as... erm primarily a College of Music for erm blind students and erm... so off I went to the R N C of sixteen and erm did my three year course and got erm some R S A certificates and... erm was reasonably successful I suppose I, perhaps [LAUGHTER] I wasn't [] as diligent as I should have been. I was much more interested in football and cricket really, but erm, anyway, I left in the July of nineteen thirty nine when things were getting... a bit erm dubious in the international sphere and erm [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] still had no prospects of employment and I don't think er, er my parents had any erm particular ideas and my father who worked for erm Roads and Bridges Department was speaking to the Chief Clerk at that time, that was, er, his name was in fact and erm he was a very sympathetic character and er he said he'd have a word with erm... with somebody in the County Council and erm see if they could find me employment as a typist and erm using the argument of course that the Education Department had up to that time at the R N C erm paid the balance of the fees for my course, erm I could just mention to you that the scholarship was worth forty pounds a year fee. Full fees were a hundred pounds a year and erm the Education Department ha [clears throat] had assessed my father's contribution towards the fees at six shillings a week which was about fifteen pounds a year. They were paying something like forty five pounds a year for my training.... Well erm... erm had a word with erm who was about oh fourth in line in the erm education hierarchy in those days and erm [clears throat] then spoke to who was the Chief Education Officer and er, I think they were a bit erm, bit apprehensive about employing a blind typist because erm it was something that they had never had any experience of... but in the end they thought it was worth a try and er especially after supporting me at the College and erm also perhaps they had in mind that [clears throat] many of the erm employees would be leaving if war broke out and erm, in fact by that time war had probably started [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but anyway, erm, it came as a bit of a shock to me when who was at that time the Horticultural Adviser or Horticultural Organiser as they used to call him, turned up at home at Debenham where we lived at the time and er said he'd come to collect my typewriter [LAUGHTER] we had no notice of this anyway was erm a jolly old soul and erm he went off with my typewriter and erm shorthand machine and the next day my father brought me into Ipswich and erm, well I saw and did a bit of typing and erm, that's how it all started. [speaker001:] You were the first blind person to be employed in the County Council? [speaker002:] In the County Council, yes. Mm, well there have been subsequent erm employees of course but [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I felt that it was a bit of a responsibility to erm, to justify the [LAUGHTER] employment [] of [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] erm a blind person. I also remember, incidentally, the first letter that I had to erm type, a young chap who was erm shortly called up for service in the Army came in and erm dictated a little letter to me to see how erm, how I got on and erm it was a letter to parents in Halesworth [clears throat] whose daughter had just been er transferred to a grammar school and erm in those days of course the, if the distance was more than three miles... the Education Committee er provided a cycle and cape and leggings and erm the object of the letter was to find out the child's inside leg measurement [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well [LAUGHTER] yes, yes [] I wondered whether I'd got it right you know, it sounded just a silly thing to ask and erm and I erm had to consider that probably asked whether I had erm made a mistake in my shorthand [LAUGHTER] before, before [] I actually typed it but erm, anyway they seemed erm reasonably satisfied and everybody was very kindly and erm considerate and [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and so I stayed there but erm travelling from Debenham wasn't very easy of course that were [speaker001:] How did you travel? [speaker002:] By, by bus mhm and erm but erm even so getting to and from the bus was a bit of a problem, unfortunately I've never had erm been one of these people who have got the nerve to erm go about a great deal by themselves and erm being up in London you know, immediately before the war I had erm, it wasn't very easy getting about so erm and erm I wasn't very [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker002:] confident really [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but anyway, erm people used to be very helpful and erm [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] so I managed for a few weeks and then I went to lodge with my sister at Trimley [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and from there of course the bus service was erm much better. They had two or three different bus services and erm, the bus went past County Hall so that it was quite, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] quite easy, well it was comparatively easy, [LAUGHTER] only trouble was of course that erm at night erm one had to go right down from County Hall to Barrett Corner to get on the bus because they were so full by the time they got to County Hall and erm so I used to walk down there with erm a chap from the Education Department, who was in the Works and Stores, a chap and erm, he was quite helpful. [speaker001:] Mm, you never had a guide dog? [speaker002:] Oh no, no. In fact there were very few guide dogs at that time and erm I've never felt that erm it's, I mean maybe... just my... erm silliness really but I, I never wanted a dog lying about all day because once at the office I stayed put as it were until it was time to go home and I could have taken the dog I suppose during the lunch hour but I preferred that time to erm to reading [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and just relaxing and erm in any case as I say er guide dogs were few and far between at that time [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] and I've never wanted one since because er luckily I've got erm my wife who, we get about together. [speaker001:] Mm. What, can you remember what your salary was when you? [speaker002:] Yes it's erm... it was seventy five pounds a year at age nineteen [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm I actually received twenty seven and twopence a week, to start with it was paid weekly but subsequently erm we went on to the monthly erm payments and er but that's what I had and er... I used to pay my sister fifteen shillings a week for, for lodgings. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But erm interestingly enough my salary until after the war was charged to erm Civil Defence. I think it was erm a bit of a ploy that erm I was extra to establishment really and I was only temporary, on the temporary staff until erm well a year or so after the war when all these things were sort of sorted out and erm I was on the permanent [speaker001:] How many hours a week did you work? [speaker002:] Erm... well [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker002:] I think it was about forty four [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but of course erm as a sort of public to the er, er a gesture to the public erm but one stage during the war when things were getting a bit grim on the war front, it was decided that erm, we should work extra hours as erm, to show that we were pulling our weight [LAUGHTER] [], so we used to, instead of starting at nine o'clock until erm half past five, and working on Saturdays as well of course, erm, we had to start at half past eight and finish at six and it was a bit of a fiasco really because nobody erm, you know, well the end of the half past five you were pretty well tired out so erm the rest of the time... [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] you were really kicking your heels and erm quite apart from which in the winter time the er conditions were pretty grim because they had the erm anti-splinter netting over the windows and erm big blinds which had to be drawn as soon as it was dusk because er, of course you weren't allowed to show a light and erm if that was it became really thick [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] mm, I don't think the cleaners were all that erm good at their job, I mean they, they were, er perhaps that's a bit unfair to them to say that because erm the collection of dust was erm [LAUGHTER] pretty dreadful [] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] with all the books and files around and er, it became, anybody with any chest troubles erm [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] found it v very difficult cos erm atmosphere as I say was erm really dreadful [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] it got very hot and erm stuffy and unpleasant [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] so erm, and that went on for, I suppose till the end of the war when er, when we had a reduction in hours again, we went back to the normal nine till half past five. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm, we did have to, oddly enough there was always a tradition when I started er... of working on Tuesdays erm an extra quarter of an hour because that was Committee Day and erm... I don't know what the idea really was, I think it was possibly so that erm, that people concerned with the Committee Meetings could erm sort themselves out and [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] for a little more time to [speaker001:] This was just presumably Education Committee? [speaker002:] Yes, it was just the Education Department [speaker001:] Yes, mm [speaker002:] at least as far as I can remember. [speaker001:] Mm mm. Mm do you remember anything about the A R P during the war [speaker002:] Oh, yes, yes, its erm, erm County Hall of course was the County Control Centre for erm air raid precautions [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm,ca before I go on to that can I just erm tell you what erm, where we worked? [speaker001:] Yes, certainly, sorry. [speaker002:] Erm, the archway from St Helens is still there isn't it? [speaker001:] Mm, yes. [speaker002:] Now just on the left as you go under the archway there was a small door [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I don't know whether it's still there but [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] erm you went into the small door and then turned right [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] there was erm, men's cloakroom on the left hand side and then our enquiry office was immediately on the right hand side. You went a little farther along, past erm 's room. being the Chief Clerk and then turned left and down quite a long corridor, which in those days was erm shorned up with four by four timber posts because er, presumably they thought if the County Hall got a direct hit the ceiling might come down [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] but er they were a bit of a nuisance because more than once, I must admit I erm, I collided with them which rather made me aware of their presence but anyway erm, then just beyond... I am sorry, on the erm right hand side, a little way down this corridor, were the stairs up to the next floor which was in those days Public Health [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and right next to those were stairs down to the basement but they've still got the basement, mm mm [speaker001:] Yes, yes that's right second floor is Education now. [speaker002:] Is it? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Oh yes because erm [speaker001:] [clears throat] I know it because I finished up... erm then just beyond the erm the stairs down to the basement was Arthur 's room Mm. [speaker002:] and then [speaker001:] got the General Office now. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] mm mm, and then the next erm one down on the left was where I worked with erm a chap named Tom. Erm his, he passed away s some years ago. Erm,interest interestingly enough erm Cyril was very friendly with er Tom's son Kenneth who was erm Planning Officer in some area now Sussex [speaker001:] Mm, mm. [speaker002:] I think but continuing down the corridor erm which was all the Education Department, you came to the typists' room right at the bottom of the corridor on the left [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and then erm turning right you went past the ladies' cloakroom and before you got to the door out into erm Grimwich Street [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] there was a large room which was the Control Room and er in there they had erm four, three or four erm telephones which were manned constantly for twenty four hours [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and they took messages from the erm various A R P points throughout the county. We're talking about East Suffolk of course [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] not erm the whole of Suffolk and erm the County Hall staff as a whole was divided into six shifts, erm and each shift was on duty for twenty four hours a day, for twenty four hours on [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm so that erm the shift that was on say Sunday, would erm erm be on again on the Saturday and so it erm, you know you got a different day [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] each week and erm, the shift which was on duty say on Sunday would have Monday off, they were, they could erm go home on Monday [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm... the six shifts had erm Controller and generally speaking these were Heads of Department, the erm, the Mr who was Chief Education Officer at that time. Incidentally, he wasn't known as Chief Education Officer, he was Secretary for Education, he only became Chief Education Officer after the war but erm he was the Controller of Shift E and most of the education staff were on Shift E. It so happened that erm Tom tha who I was working with, see he was on Shift er Shift F and er [LAUGHTER] there was always a bit of rivalry [] between the various shifts as er, as to erm, you know, who did the better job and all this sort of thing They were always erm, making caustic comments about the entries in the, in the log book which the telephonists had to keep, erm, of the messages that came through [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm... they erm, they had their meals in the canteen which was one of the committee rooms adapted for that purpose... and erm, I think erm, the youngs younger people used to quite enjoy it really I mean they used t ha [speaker001:] What did you think of it? [speaker002:] Well I was never on it [LAUGHTER] I was exempt and erm the younger people were, they had the opportunity of not erm being on the shifts [speaker001:] Oh I see, it wasn't compulsory then? [speaker002:] It wasn't compulsory er erm up to the age of about eighteen I think, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I think erm, you know there were one or two sort of erm clandestine meetings and that sort of thing [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yes []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] as you could imagine [] because erm they had all the whole building to erm to roam about in [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] and er, I think the younger people quite enjoyed it but the older ones, of course, found it bit of a bind, er particularly after erm the sort of patriotic fervour [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] wore off a bit, I mean there was erm, everybody was feeling very patriotic at the beginning of the war but after four or five years the erm novelty wore off [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm [speaker001:] Was there any financial incentive for [speaker002:] Not re no, no, no, no. But erm... as far as financial incentive goes, erm... it was about a year or so after erm I started there I think when er they introduced it, the erm war bonus, which was a supplement to normal salaries [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm as usual this was erm, this created a bit of controversy because erm temporary staff, according to the reading of the minute, didn't er, weren't entitled to war bonus because erm, they'd been appointed at a certain salary and er that was that and er, but in the [LAUGHTER] end we [] managed to get our war bonus as well so we were on equal pegging with the, with the other staff. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But erm there were one or two little hiccups of that sort where erm temporary staff were erm regarded as a bit er second rate citizens [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm, with all the erm younger men and some of the girls of course er, volunteered for the services [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] er we had quite a number of married women coming in to er, to work as part of their war effort and erm, so that there was quite, there was quite erm... quick turnover of staff at that time [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm... to be fair to them, I don't think that erm some of them were particularly interested in, [LAUGHTER] in their work [] and er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] the war effort was really erm a way of getting out of erm away from home because the women were erm, found themselves left on their own [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] cos the men had gone to the services. [speaker001:] Mm.... [speaker002:] But erm... yes that was the erm, that was the A R P erm [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] story. [speaker001:] Yes. Bu coming on now to your relation working relationship with West Suffolk, I mean did you have much contact with, with staff in West Suffolk or? [speaker002:] Very, very little really, erm we had contact with other Authorities of course, in the course, in erm er particularly in connection with evacuation, erm... evacuation took up erm quite a lot of staff and, and time at that er particularly initially because erm Suffolk was in a peculiar position or at least the East Suffolk was, erm at the beginning of the war of course erm East Suffolk was an evacuation, er was erm a reception area [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm there were all sorts of funny stories and erm some of them not quite so funny about erm the way that the children and erm mothers from Dagenham came by sea and landed at, at Felixstowe [speaker001:] Yes, I've heard about that, yes. [speaker002:] and erm it was really remarkable because er, I mean presumably the Germans were told about it and erm kept U-boats and [LAUGHTER] [] and the from shipping out the er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] out the area, but to bring them from, by sea from Dagenham to erm Felixstowe is a bit [speaker001:] by, by rail. [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] and erm, then of course when they reached Felixstowe, everything was a bit chaotic because th they had to sleep on the floor in the schools down there [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and then they were bussed to an Acton crossroads where erm a rather bemused erm billeting, Chief Billeting Officer then had to decide where the buses had got to go to [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] and so [] you know looking back on it, was all rather funny but erm, it wasn't at the time of course particularly for the children and erm mothers. [speaker001:] Did evacuation just take place over two or three days or? [speaker002:] Yes, mm mm, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm it had sorted itself out after, well more or less after a week or two a lot of the evacuees of course didn't stay very long, they went back home because erm... I know mother had a, a little boy from erm Guildford when we lived at Debenham and er he went back after a while, the mother used to come down and visit him from time to time, they were very, came from very poor circumstances and the [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] mother used to spend most of her time in the local when she did come and er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] in the end she took the children home with her, erm it was so different from what they'd been used to in those erm [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] East, well in the East End particularly, Guildford was not much better [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm... erm... anyway... the erm children were absorbed into the schools of some sort [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm then became, we got round to the erm question of getting the children into similar schools to the ones that they'd been in and erm I came into this, in fact I came into all sorts of things erm well by accident then I suppose anyway [LAUGHTER] not for any other reason [] but erm Mr erm who was the Secretary for Education, he had a Personal Assistant a chap named erm erm he was a very likeable chap erm and er a rather ec bit of an eccentric really because erm he'd been erm, he'd trained as a doctor and erm he'd left the course before completing it. Then he went erm into the Navy for a short time and for some unknown reason he managed to get out of the Navy and came as Mr 's Personal Assistant and erm one of his jobs was to erm get these pe children sorted out and I used to write no end of letters for him to erm places like erm Ilford and Wanstead and mainly the northern suburbs of London erm about certain children who had been attending central schools which were something, which were something that erm East Suffolk couldn't offer and erm trying to decide whether they ought to go to grammar school or one of the area schools as they we then were [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] in Suffolk and erm most complicated situations we got into. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] The erm billeting actually was dealt with by a section connected with the er County Accountants Department [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] which subsequently became the Treasurers... and erm... they used to erm collect the contributions from, from parents and there again I got involved because they were short of typists at one time [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm we had to write to parents and er collect contributions which were overdue. [speaker001:] Mm. How large were the, were the classes with these influx of all these,di did it boost up the numbers in the? [speaker002:] Yes, somehow they used to accommodate them but [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] you see it wasn't very long after that that [LAUGHTER] they were deciding somewhere in er erm, I think Whitehall that erm Suffolk should become an evacuation area. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So that at that point erm, we ceased to receive evacuees and Felixstowe went to Redditch, Felixstowe Grammar School. I am talking about grammar schools actually because erm the work that I was concerned with was in the secondary education which erm translated really means meant grammar school education, so that the schools that erm I had most contact with were the grammar schools. Felixstowe went to Redditch and Worcestershire. Erm, oddly enough Leiston Grammar went to Sudbury. Erm Lowestoft, which was the only other one which evacuated in total, they went as a school rather than a, you know, the individual children. Erm Lowestoft went to Worksop in erm Nottinghamshire. [speaker001:] Mm, how we how were the children transported? Just [speaker002:] Oh they went erm [speaker001:] by train? [speaker002:] they went by train, yes. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] And erm the they went as a unit, staff as most of the staff as well went [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] with them and one or two remained behind but er, yes it was interesting how erm... I always found it rather funny that er you had to go to Leiston to Sudbury to evacuated to school [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and erm... if I could just mention that we had eight grammar schools, there was erm, in alphabetical order they were Bec Beccles, er Beccles Sir John the Man, er Bungay Grammar which had er small boarding house. Erm, Felixstowe,Fam oh sorry I missed out Hy Grammar School which was the really famous one. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm,Fe Felixstowe Grammar School, Famlyn and Mills Grammar School, Leiston and Lowestoft and Stowmarket. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Lowestoft was by far the biggest, erm and Lowestoft had a peculiar sort of administrative set up because they were what was described as erm a Divisional Executive and erm they had powers over their own committees... apart from higher education which in modern parlance is further education. We used to call it higher education, and erm so we had to deal with the, the Lowestoft Grammar School in the same way as we did with the other schools and also with the erm Technical Institute which was at Lowestoft, that was the only erm purpose-built erm centre for further education in the, in the county at that time. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Ipswich of course was a separate power, we had nothing to do with Ipswich. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] The erm Lowestoft Technical Institute was actually in Clapham Road and that got a direct hit [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] er luckily, as far as I know, nobody was erm, nobody was erm nobody was killed. There may have been one or two injured [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but the Principal of the Technical Institute at Lowestoft was quite a character, a Mrs, a Miss G C and I remember it was the day after the erm, the bombing and the building was pretty well devastated and er Miss rung up and said, she'd got an idea she [LAUGHTER] said [] erm how about hiring a bus, a double-decker bus, I could have my classes in the bus and erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] it c it could er be driven around when there are air raids to get out of danger [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] but she was a marvellous person, erm [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm it may be that erm because of my generation, but you don't get the same sort of personalities [LAUGHTER] nowadays [] as you did in those days, erm Mr for instance he was, he was a most benign sort of erm fellow of what one would describe as a real gentleman mm, mind you he used to have his paddies at times but [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] he was erm a very fine man really, I suppose, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I remember erm one morning he came in in a bit of erm... he was obviously very annoyed about something and er, when he was in those sort of moods he used to expect erm all sort of reports to be presented and er he wanted er statistics which nobody else had ever thought of and erm Arthur who as I have s hinted before was erm really my sort of [LAUGHTER] guardian angel [] he, he sort of er did a great deal for me. He was erm the chap, sort of chap who was erm, who was able to calm things down, he er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] he had a way with him and he was, got on very well with Mr and er he told us afterwards that erm the whole trouble was that the children's baths had leaked that [LAUGHTER] morning [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear []. [speaker002:] and it [] turned Mr into a bit of a tizzy, but erm Mm. [speaker001:] I don't suppose you'd er get that sort of relationship nowadays and of course it was during the war when people er the fact that erm there was a war on erm was a levelling down or up or at least a levelling of, of people's situations they, Mm. [speaker002:] they were all in it together and er, there was perhaps not quite so much erm side [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] as erm as they would otherwise be. [speaker001:] So there was more sort of community spirit? Sort of [speaker002:] Yes that sort of thing yes. Yes I well remember er I use when I was staying down at Trimley there was erm a lady there who worked in the Billeting Department, who ca who herself was evacuated from London and er, I used to catch the same bus with her but she never would speak to me, erm... and erm... one morning er she lived down at Curton and one morning they had some erm er German planes over Curton and they were doing some machine gunning and that sort of thing and erm [LAUGHTER] and we met at the bus... stop and she was full of it and erm that sort of broke the ice it was [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] it was really amazing, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] how erm,gonna just because there'd been this, this scaring incident, it made her loosen her tongue and er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] because if I might say so disabled people were treated oddly in those days, they are not er, erm people I think were a bit er diffident about making contact with them and erm, a lot of people wouldn't erm, you know, give you a hand if you were [speaker001:] Oh really? [speaker002:] crossing a road and that sort of thing. [speaker001:] Oh really, that's a sort of discrimination [speaker002:] It's, it's much better now er erm, you know people have become a little more... understanding of course. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm, must have been very difficult then to get around sometimes then Oh well it was, yes, and erm you know if people are friendly and er talk to you and, you know even if you don't want help, if they offer it's always appreciated. Mm. [speaker002:] Erm [speaker001:] Would you like to say a little bit more about the actual work of your Department? [speaker002:] Yes, erm Arthur as I have mentioned earlier was erm the fourth in command as it were and erm if I can just sort of go down the erm the pecking order, mm, Leslie was the Chief Education Officer. In those days called the Secretary. He had a Personal Assistant who er, well didn't come into the reckoning really erm because he merely erm was filled in when Mr couldn't er attend various functions. Then the, the Assistant Secretary for Education was erm a very interesting chap erm he was a Mr A O D and erm he was, he had erm an elementary school background, he hadn't a degree or any qualification but he'd been in so long that er he'd worked his way up to erm,s erm to Assistant Secretary for Education and he was a jolly chap and erm and he produced a, a dictionary of erm, of the Suffolk dialect which has became quite erm, quite a classic work really [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] and then erm next in order was erm Alfred who was the Chief Clerk and then there were a number on level pegging, there was erm Cyril in charge of Works and Stores, Arthur who was erm, as I've said was my... erm the guardian and erm in the Finance Section was Charlie and erm then there was the typing pool. Erm, when I first started erm I think the typists felt that erm as an ordinary typist I ought to er be in the typing pool but the [LAUGHTER] I'm glad I didn't [] because I don't think I would have felt very happy amongst er [speaker001:] Other women? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes, so many ladies I d I don't know how many there were about erm five or six I think [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] so I've shared a room with erm this chap Tom who was er... he had been in the First World War and er though he seemed old to me at the time, I suppose he was probably in his thirties and erm... he joined the Home Guard and erm lived, because he was bombed out where he lived in he moved out to Coptock had accommodation out there and er he was in the unit at Coptock and so that used to take up quite a bit of his time and other erm members of staff were, of course also had fire watching and erm various civil defence activities, quite apart from the work on the A R P shifts. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Arthur erm he was exempt from erm er these sort of civil defence activities, I think bit of in the road where he lived. Yeah that is. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But erm he'd always had a temperamental heart and erm at times he wasn't at all well [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] mm it's interesting t to think that he's now in his eighties and er [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] he's survived all the er heart condition that he ever did have [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and in fact er latterly he was much erm, much fitter than he was when I first knew him. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But he was a very very kindly man and er he introduced erm me to a lot of things which I wouldn't otherwise have erm... been able to do, or at least I wouldn't have g had the erm, been invited to do. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] And the work of our little section erm, which consisted of Tom, Tom, myself, Arthur and a young girl erm of about fifteen, sixteen. Erm... was the erm running of these eight grammar schools... erm evening institutes... erm Tom was er sort of Commander in Chief of evening institutes [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] erm, then there were all sorts of odds and ends which I think very largely were erm the result of Mr wanting to erm... build up a name for his Suffolk doing rather more than perhaps some other Authorities [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and er particularly in the field of agriculture... erm... we had erm an Agricultural Organiser... and erm he ran experimental plots in erm places like Tunstall and Wickham Market. We also had an Agricultural Orga Horticultural Organiser erm with experimental plots and he went round to schools as well and er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] looked after erm the work done in school gardens [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm... one of er, of the various committees that erm Arthur was in charge of was an Agricultural Sub Committee which in turn had a Sub Committee called the Poultry Sub Committee. Now erm for [LAUGHTER] some reason [] or other we were responsible for the accredited Poultry Breeding Station Scheme which was erm initiated by the Department of Education or the Ministry of Education as it was then at that stage. Erm, sorry of Agriculture not Education [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm these were poultry breeders be erm scattered all over the count er county who... yes the erm accredited poultry breeding station scheme was erm initiated by the Ministry of Agriculture... and erm there were a number of farms scattered all over the county... erm where they were open to inspection and erm we had erm had a Mrs who went round and inspected the flocks and erm they had to reapply each year to erm sustain their accreditation [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm you'd be surprised really how much er [LAUGHTER] correspondence [] and er erm arguing and er they was going on about this because if Mrs went to a farm and then said that she saw some hens there that didn't look particularly fit erm and said they'd got to be culled and if the farmer thought otherwise then we got into all sorts of tangles because we knew nothing about poultry. Mrs er presumably did [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm there was no final erm sort of er judgment to be had so erm then we had to call meetings of this little Sub Committee who finally made up their minds and I remember typing reports, quite long reports, about erm Rhode Island Reds er crossed with Light Sussex and Light Sussex crossed with er Brown and erm I, I knew precious little about poultry at that time. [LAUGHTER] Don't know very much now [] but er it er became most monotonous and I used to [LAUGHTER] and I used to like [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] meetings with the Poultry Sub Committee which then reported to the Agriculture Sub Committee [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and that in turn of course reported to erm, to the full Education Committee.... Another sideline of this erm little secondary education section that erm Arthur was in charge of was the library and erm the Library Sub Committee he erm had to look out for much to the annoyance of erm Bill who was the librarian at the time [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] because erm Bill thought that er really the library was his pigeon loft er not Arthur 's. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm so that erm... there were all sorts of erm little by- products from the agriculture and library and that sort of thing that er we had to erm deal with. [speaker001:] Who actually was responsible for buying the books in the library? [speaker002:] Oh, the librarian was [speaker001:] Librarian, mm. [speaker002:] but he had to report, of course, to the Library Sub Committee [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and Arthur was erm sort of Clerk to the Library Sub committee [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] but erm Mr took t felt a bit I think about er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] having to go through another person [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm he was alright, very friendly really [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm in fact, we were looking erm... my wife found a copy of the fiftieth anniversary erm of the County Council the other day. We were looking through that and erm Mr was the first er County Librarian in East Suffolk [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and we knew him quite well because er before we moved, my parents moved to Debenham, we've lived at Trimley and he lived erm well next door but one to us and er so we knew Mr quite well. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm... the work that I became, as it happened, mostly concerned with was the erm granting of major scholarships as they were then called which subsequently became called County Awards and er which were attainable in those days only at universities [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and erm... er... we had er... each, there was a Ministry of Education form to be completed, a statistical return and erm when I first started there there were no more than seventeen university students with these major scholarships. Now it doesn't mean to say of course that there were only [LAUGHTER] seventeen people [] in [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] East Suffolk at university because a lot of erm the more well to do parents would erm would probably turn up their noses at the small amount of [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] of the value of the scholarship and not bother to apply in the first place, but the major scholarship was worth at its maximum a hundred and fifty pounds [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] a year, for three years [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and fifty pounds of that was loaned which had to be repaid at the end of the course in sixteen equal quarterly instalments. [speaker001:] Oh, I see. [speaker002:] So that erm [clears throat] erm the collection of [LAUGHTER] of the loan was erm quite a major operation in itself because though erm there was a form of agreement and each agreement had to have two sureties and erm you could always go to the sureties if the student after the course [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] erm failed to pay up it erm, there were all sorts of circumstances which erm made it difficult for the student or difficult for the student or there were certain students of course who just erm tried to avoid paying altogether [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm at that time of course when we got to that sort of crisis we erm had to send a memo over to the er Clerk of the Council's Department er. The Clerk of the Council is now, of course, the Chief Executive [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm he would take er legal action or at least that was the idea, we hardly ever got any erm any [LAUGHTER] change [] out of the Le Legal Department and as often as not it was written off. [speaker001:] Mm, probably cost as much to, to get the money back [speaker002:] Oh yes yes, but erm this we found wa always was the case with the er County Council Legal Department that er by the time they got round to it the people had [LAUGHTER] either [] gone abroad or something had happened er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] so it was written off in the end. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er the most interesting case erm, I remember was a chap who erm having completed his course erm joined the R A F and erm he was missing at Dieppe when they had the rather abortive attempt at landing at Dieppe during the war and er, but he was never... erm posted as... as erm having died and erm it was years afterwards, it was in the nineteen fifties in fact before we could get the Department of Education to agree to the loan being written off because erm obviously he was, by that time he had to be assumed as [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] dead and not just missing. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But erm another [LAUGHTER] funny story that er always sticks in my mind is er when we sent memos to the Clerks' Department and there was only the Clerks' Department, they were, they were trying to erm improve their public image as [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We were told, because of the shortage of paper, we were told only to use... secondhand papers er paper that had already been used for letters or memos when writing to the Clerks' Department and erm we erm used to get the grubbiest paper that we could and then you had to condense it and type it erm without too much space... and erm that went over to the Clerks' Department, then erm when it got over th oh sorry you had to trim off the edges erm so that there was no spare paper left around the memo so that er you know there was just this little bit of paper [LAUGHTER] [] with the [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] message on it or the er instruction on it [speaker001:] Mm mm [speaker002:] and then when it got over to the Clerks' Department they used to stick it on another piece of paper so that they could put it on the file [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and er that may sound er a bit exaggerated but I can assure you that's what happened, that er, to go to, to be able to file these, these little scraps of paper they had to [LAUGHTER] stick [] it on another sheet [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] it was rather funny. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... Do you remember the introduction of, sort of computers or any sort of mechanized typewriters? [speaker002:] Not erm, not within the the time which we are talking about really. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] This was erm well we were at County Hall of course and er subsequently we erm, they built this what was described as a derelict aircraft carrier and [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and er we moved over there because erm the Department was splitting at the seams really, because immediately there was erm, the war was over and there were all sorts of plans for erm for development and that sort of thing and erm as I've already mentioned there were two, only two graduates in the whole of the Education Department who was Mr and er his Personal Assistant and erm then after the war there were three graduates appointed, all of them from erm, ex service men, there was Arthur who was erm Lieutenant Commander in the Navy, there was erm Bud, I can't remember his Christ proper christian name. He was in the R A F erm erm and then there was a chap named Harold who was Lieutenant Colonel from the Army. Erm he subsequently went to erm Huddersfield as Chief Education Officer [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm, and these people were assigned erm three separate sections erm, Harold for instance, he took over Further Education which was a term which hadn't been erm, was not an accepted term in those days because we'd always er referred to it as Higher Education [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and Bud was erm, dealt with schools and erm... er, no I'm sorry Arthur dealt with schools. Bud had a very special job, he erm, he was in charge of the Post War Planning and erm, he spent no end of time and er a great deal of research having er committee member er committee meetings to do with the setting up of County Colleges [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm the reorganizing of erm secondary education which all stemmed of course really from the nineteen forty four Act [speaker001:] Mm. Yes. [speaker002:] and erm er in the end of course, hardly any of it was implemented. We never did get erm any county colleges. [speaker001:] Mm. funds, funds were limited for school buildings. [speaker002:] We er yes, yes, we erm, one thing that did happen of course was that the area schools as they were called in those days became erm, described as modern schools [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm they was erm... quite funny really because erm Rentham School was then Rentham Senior School erm was on the black nineteen twenty six blacklist of schools erm for erm closing and er, erm resitting somewhere, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but er, under the nineteen forty four Act, Rentham Senior School then became Rentham Modern School and we thought [LAUGHTER] we thought that the [] silly term to go to a school which in nineteen twenty six had been er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] on the blacklist [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] because there was erm before the war there was a blacklist of schools which... were due for reor reorganization and erm [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] resiting. [speaker001:] Can you remember where any of the others were, on the blacklist? [speaker002:] Er, no that was er erm, most of, most of the blacklist had been dealt with erm it had been a fair amount of erm reorganization and er rebuilding [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm... [speaker001:] Course it was the Butler Act of nineteen forty four which set up this three stage [speaker002:] It was, yes. [speaker001:] national ladder. [speaker002:] There was grammar, erm secondary, secondary grammar, secondary technical and secondary modern [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but there again secondary technical erm really didn't get off the ground, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm there were... some erm secondary technical erm facilities of course at one or two of the schools [clears throat] before the war. Erm they had a machine, quite advanced machine shop at the Leiston Grammar School and er interestingly enough that became er used whilst the grammar school was evacuated as a training centre for erm. Er one of the members of staff of the Leiston Grammar School, a chap named Johnny erm, was in charge of his trainees and erm there again erm Arthur and our section became responsible for erm all this in-service training for er, er women mainly because the men of course had joined up and erm the used to come in quite often and er he got, used to get so upset because he couldn't erm, he got at cross purposes with some of these ladies [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and erm he was always talking about erm different types of lathe and chucks and things like that and er, none of us had any idea what [LAUGHTER] he was [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] talking about it was far too technical for us but erm Arthur used to listen and in the end er, I think Johnny went off, you know, satisfied that somebody had listened to him [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] but erm that was erm financed of course by the Ministry of Labour at erm... as the erm Education Department were responsible for the... the general administration of it [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and erm Wickham Market had erm Machine Centre erm, that was used during the war for erm certain courses er particularly for erm tractor drivers, they used to er have a week's course, they had to apply to the Education Committee and er we got these applications in and erm they spent a week at Wickham Market, then in they used to stay in lodgings if they came from great distances and erm... they would learn about the maintenance of erm of tractors and er, I suppose it's quite a good thing really because er, it was difficult to get any repairs done in those days [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and er that was one of Tom 's extras because [LAUGHTER] I could [] very well remember, erm we had very little... erm time off at Christmas and there was one year that erm, we just had the Christmas Day and erm... erm Tom had this meeting on the Christmas Eve to decide who should erm attend the next week's tractor course and erm, everybody was sort of feeling in the, sort of Christmas spirit and [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] er perhaps Tom himself was erm not really concentrating very much but I know when we came back after the Christmas Day, the Boxing Day that is, erm, Tom was [LAUGHTER] quite oblivious as to what had gone on on the Chr on the Christmas Eve, so I remember we c we put our heads together and erm came to erm some arrangement as to who should be [LAUGHTER] invited [] for this next tractor course and nothing was ever said so I expect the right people went after all but erm it's funny how when... he was [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] a bit befuddled and I think everybody else was er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] a bit unconcerned as to what was going on on the Christmas Eve. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] The erm education for the forces was another erm [speaker001:] Oh yes, you mentioned that. [speaker002:] another sideline of course and erm... there again erm Mr who er kept a finger in, in a lot of pies, he erm with the W E A of course and erm the Cambridge Extra Mural Board of Studies. He was very friendly with erm who was in charge of the Extra Mural Board and erm... then possibly because of this connection erm we were asked by the erm Ministry of Defence to provide lectures and courses for erm units of H M Forces stationed in the area and erm so a panel of lecturers was erm formed and erm they used to go out, the, the units used to have their own Education Officers, usually a sergeant or perhaps a second lieutenant and erm they used to come into the office and say that they'd like somebody to go out to their Searchlight Unit or A A Unit stationed somewhere out in the sticks and er lecture on this that or the other and erm we were supposed to try and fix them up and erm the panel erm, it had quite a number of erm people on it that erm, I can't remember... who they all were, I know that erm... [LAUGHTER] you'd hardly believe this but there was a chap named Mr and another chap named Mr [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []. [speaker002:] and they used to erm, they were ornithologists [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and they used to go out to these units and take slides and er lecture to the, to the men about birds and er natural history and Mr himself he, he was famous for three different lectures that he used to offer. One was from erm... from Baghdad to Barqu and the other one was from Barqu to Basrah because he was in the First World War, I think he was serving with the Middlesex Regiment and erm, I don't know how he managed this, I never did understand. Anyway, he was a Captain in the Army and he had these slides of erm his, his journeys erm er in Arabia and he used to show this with er great regularity not only to erm Units of H M Forces but also to the er shifts, the A R P shifts he used to amuse them by [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] showing these films. Then he had another one about er Gertrude who was erm, I never did know very much about Gertrude but she was erm a lady of some repute in er in Egypt a at erm either just before or just after the First World War. Then erm, of course there were people who lectured on er gate courses on elementary German, there was a friend of Doctor, who used to go out and, to units and erm give lessons in German and erm... there were, there was a unit of Polish erm soldiers stationed, they had an armoured train, believe it or not, which was erm parked at Saxmundham and erm every so often, particularly at night, they used to trample up and down the line. Now what they, what they were supposed to do erm I never did know but there were quite a number of these er men who lived in this train and they had a lieutenant who's quite a handsome chap by all accounts, he used to come into the office a chap named lieutenant and erm erm this was one of the things that landed on Joyce 's plant er plate and er she used to meet these Education Officers and arrange for courses and in the er in Lieutenant 's case of course there was er, instruction in English which erm erm Stanley who was a Headmaster of er Area School he undertook classes for these Polish chaps... but er so often of course these erm, these units were only in the area for a limited space of time so you couldn't arrange anything very, very comprehensive [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] erm [LAUGHTER] I remember [] one er, I think it was Bedfield Hall or some big house at Bedfield where erm they had erm erm a hostel for Wrens, I think they were probably in training there and erm their Education Officer came in and wanted us to arrange a course erm and she wanted it described as a school for brides [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] about erm, you know early marriage and all this [LAUGHTER] sort of thing [] and erm that was a bit of a puzzle because erm, nobody [LAUGHTER] knew really [] what to [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] lay on for them... and erm... also of course erm, I know, people like erm Mr and Mr they used to... be picked up by er, by some chaps in a jeep or Army truck. They used to go all the way out to these erm Searchlight Stations and erm they used to, very often they, they were situated in a, in a sort of pit in a dug out and erm when they arrived of course er the Education Officer had forgotten to tell the, the troops that there was a lecture that they were supposed to attend and er nobody turned up. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] They used to get erm these people on the Election Panel used to be paid a couple of guineas a time for their lectures [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but they were always a bit erm unhappy when they gave up so much time and er there was nobody there to listen [LAUGHTER] to them when [] when they got there. A bit unfortunate really. Erm, another lecturer that I can remember was erm a chap named who was head at Reydon R E Y School near Southwold. He was very interested in astronomy and he used to lecture on the stars and that sort of thing. Erm, of course it has to be remembered that all these lectures, or at least most of them, were erm voluntary compulsion and the men used to turn up because they were told to and er whether or not they showed little or no interest very often and it was all... erm well a bit of a waste of time. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. What would you say were some of your happiest memories of your time spent with the County Council? [speaker002:] Erm... ah, now that erm... I think I was reasonably happy most of the time, erm I know if I can sort of look at the other side of the coin erm, I became a bit apprehensive as the war went on and er, obviously it wasn't going to last much longer. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er men were coming, young men were coming out of the forces and er they wanted their jobs back and er I began to wonder what was going to happen to me, if, because I was on the temporary staff and erm there was no guarantee that I'd be able to stay erm, and then of course erm I was thinking of probably getting married and erm... er the salary at that stage wasn't er, wasn't very much to [LAUGHTER] get [] married on. I can't remember wha exactly what it was but er it erm had gone up a little since erm, since I first started. But I certainly remember going to Mr and erm, I felt very bold when I went and said that er, you know, sooner or later I'd erm, I'd get married and er set up a home and that sort of thing and erm I said er, what are the prospects of erm getting a reasonable salary? [LAUGHTER] He was then on a f salary of about four hundred a year I think. So it gives you some idea of what the salaries were like in those days. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] He said, erm, well what would you think was reasonable? Er what would you be able to manage on, sort of thing and I said about two hundred and [LAUGHTER] fifty [] a year and er, you know, that was quite realistic in those days but erm obviously it wouldn't go very far now, would it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No []. It wouldn't. [speaker002:] But erm, if I could just erm... erm expand a bit on this erm... on this erm major awards, er because it was quite interesting, particularly because of the present er, uncertainty about what's going to happen about students' grants. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm... just er when I first started, I've already mentioned I think that erm there are about seventeen... erm students at universities with major scholarships within the maximum of this erm hundred and fifty pounds a year and erm we inter had to interview all these erm applicants, erm which wasn't a very arduous task because [LAUGHTER] there weren't [] so many of them but [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] we had to get erm reports from the Examining Boards erm on their performances, in the Higher School Certificate Exam erm, they had to take two main subjects and two subsidiaries and according to the recommendations of the Examining Boards, then, by and large, they er received a major award or, or they didn't but erm there was a consolation prize for those who didn't erm get a major award... because there were a few, what they called, special loans... erm offered by the Education Committee. These were fifty pounds a year [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and, but of course, they were loans and had to be repaid at the end of the course. Er teacher training erm, which was then, of course, a two year course. Erm, they were not interviewed, they... if they were accepted by a teacher training college they received erm a maximum of, of fifty pounds a year but erm as far as I can remember there was no loan erm element in that but I m I may be wrong because er but I never can remember erm writing to recover loans from the training college student. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But erm, after the erm forty four Act of course, things began to er develop quite quickly and erm... we then had what we called erm discretionary awards or minor awards we called them in the first place [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm for various things and er one of the earliest er minor awards which the Education Committee had was to erm a girl from Ruth who wanted to take erm erm a course for erm the N P S, the Pharmaceutical er Society's [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Exams and erm she was about the first I think and there was erm somebody else who wanted to take a course in erm Youth Leadership but erm, very quickly the numbers increased till the time I left... of course we, we were dealing with thousands [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] literally thousands and the expenditure had, had gone up to well over a million pounds. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But that was er not until [LAUGHTER] ninete [] oh at the time of reorganization that we, of course the numbers increased dramatically then with erm, when we took the Borough students over and er also those from West Suffolk. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But I erm became responsible for erm awards. Well I say responsible, I was really responsible to erm the e what we c that were then known as Assistant Education Officers. Erm, but erm, I had go was allowed a great deal of latitude. I don't know whether, people thought that erm if they interfered with me I wouldn't er... I wouldn't play or what it was but then, anyway... erm when the war ended, as I say I got a bit erm worried and erm I then got in touch with er Mr who was then er, then taken over from Sir Cecil Clerk of the Council or Chief Executive and erm, he suggested that erm I might take a course for the erm Home Workers Diploma For The Blind which erm was, well it was a sort of specialized er social worker really. They used to have people specializing for erm, erm blind individuals. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So erm, both my wife. My wife used to [LAUGHTER] work [] in the Education Department, incidentally and erm, we both decided we'd take this diploma and er Mr erm in his kindness let us erm erm go off to the workshops and do some practical work and erm my wife lived at Stow Upland and I was lodging in Ipswich and er... he even allowed us to study in the, in the erm Enquiry Office in the evenings. I think he was a bit apprehensive [] about that because he didn't know whether erm he was doing right by allowing us to be together in the [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Enquiry Office after office hours anyway. Erm, we did er the studies and erm too I took the diploma. Phil, my wife, erm had measles just at the time of the exam. So she didn't take it in the end but erm anyway I got this diploma and er then I was quite annoyed because erm... Social Services then erm pu the Welfare for the Blind was dealt with by the Public Health Department and a vacancy occurred in the Public Health Department for erm Blind Welfare Officer, or at least a Welfare Officer for the Blind and I applied for it and erm, they er didn't make an appointment because they didn't er get in other applications but they [LAUGHTER] di they didn't [] offer me the appointment. So I had a bit of an up and a downer and er erm created quite a stir with erm Mr the Clerk of the Council Professor. I thought this was very unfair and erm, but then... luckily really because erm I don't think I would have let the job would have been difficult even if er I'd had my wife as, for transporting me around to these various people. Erm... I then, erm sent a memo to the t erm County er Clerk of the Council and erm applied for upgrading and erm... so I was then taken, I was put on the permanent staff. Taken off the typist's grade on to what was then called higher clerical and erm given the job of erm... looking out for erm er awards, er both university and teacher training and erm the minor awards or discretionary awards as they became and that's erm, I was given this job and er that's how it's... built up really over the years. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It started from something erm quite small and finished up with... something [LAUGHTER] fairly large [] really [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] and it's be it's been a very fascinating job because... in the course of the years, obviously one has met erm, parents and students and lecturers and erm university tutors we've got to know quite well because erm there were all sorts of problems as you probably know with [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] in these establishments [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and er the students themselves have all sorts of problems and latterly of course we had erm a great number of mature students [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and er... as often as not they were ladies who had been separated or divorced and er they had all, a lot of sort of marital problems and it [LAUGHTER] became [] almost a, a we welfare of job [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] as much as erm a grant situation. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] The grants, the of the grants of course increased over the years and the main thing about erm awards of course was to assess them and this is something which erm, I always felt a bit self conscious about because, we had this erm very comprehensive form where parents and erm, oh individuals when they were the students themselves had to complete and give very precise details of income [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and financial circumstances and erm, this was something of course that I had to leave to the people who were working got himself another job. So that erm, nobody really kn was the most monotonous job when you had to erm assess literally thousands of students in the end. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] [clears throat] And erm, I always felt sorry for the people working in Inland Revenue because er, [LAUGHTER] they were, they were [] having to do it all the time [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm, we never used to get the new rates of grants and the new regulations out from the erm Ministry until oh early June and all this work had to be done, erm, obviously before the [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] new term st new academic year started [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and everybody was clamouring to know how much they were going to get and er we were always trying to head them off by saying that er, theirs was next [LAUGHTER] on the list [] and er [speaker001:] Mm. So sometimes students would get their grants quite late? [speaker002:] We always tried to get some payment to them before a term started [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm, it never, with reorganization it was a bit of a problem because erm [LAUGHTER] I well [] remembers too just after reorganization the County Treasurers took all the telephones off the hook, so there was no communication between our department and theirs. So you couldn't tell whether their, whether a student's cheque had gone out or not [speaker001:] Oh dear [speaker002:] and there was no contact at all department er it got really chaotic [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and erm of course computers didn't help in the slightest because er, I think the er, I may be wrong about this but as I understood it erm the computer programmer worked for West Suffolk but at the time of reorganization he'd got himself another job. So that erm, nobody really knew how to program the erm, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] the thing and in those days they used to have the punched cards, you know, erm they still have this [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] and erm they used to have to send these cards to Birmingham to be processed and there used to be a van going out from er Milner House to Birmingham. I think two or three times a week and erm, they had er, er a lot of girls over at Birmingham who used to prepare these cards for the computer [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but erm, it was erm... rather silly really [speaker001:] Right well, thank you Mr it's been a a long and varied career [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] It's erm eventful. it hasn't really been erm all that eventful but at least by staying put rather than going off at, I, I'd, I'd thought about, at one time, erm emigrating to New Zealand but er... erm when I found out what the conditions were like out there I decided to stay and er [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] we had the ch young children then so that erm all in all I am not sorry that things turned out as they did because erm as luck would have it, you know, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] it's er worked quite well. [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and er I managed to get er do forty odd years and erm now I'm quite happy on the pension that [LAUGHTER] they gave me []. [speaker001:] You retired in nineteen eighty? Er July nineteen eighty, yes. Mm. [speaker002:] I could have gone on of course erm, longer but er I wanted to do erm, I've always wanted to write and so I've er been able to do that since. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] And erm, my wife who's a teacher... had erm a very devastating experience just after I retired so it was erm, it was as well that I retired when I did because I was then able to stay at home and er [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] see after her. [speaker001:] Yes, [speaker002:] That about su [LAUGHTER] summons [] it up I think. [speaker001:] Right, well thank you very much Mr.

[Dick:] Conference, could you be upstanding and welcome on to the platform, Catherine and, delegates from the Lancashire region... where last year's congress was held, to unveil the G M B banner. [music for approximately two minutes] [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Congress, it gives me great pleasure to declare congress open. This in fact is the first time that the G M B has held its conference in Portsmouth. We're absolutely delighted to be here... not least because we have membership throughout the spread of Portsmouth in the various different industries which we as a union represent... the naval dockyards... the utilities, energy, water, gas, electricity and many other industries including the. So we're delighted to bring our conference to support our members in Portsmouth. Equally colleagues, we're delighted to be here not least because the Labour Party has made significant inroads into Portsmouth. And with now fourteen Labour councillors as opposed to seventeen Tories and a few Lib Dems... the Labour Party in Manchester, in, sorry, in Portsmouth... [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping]... [Dick:] well in Manchester as well [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Dick:] will soon join their colleagues on the south coast in Southampton and gain power in Portsmouth. So it's my great pleasure to declare congress open and to welcome everybody to Portsmouth. Colleagues, for the benefit of first-time delegates... this is going to be the running order of business for the week... the final agenda, this includes the rule amendment motions... the general motions... the standing orders committee guideline for congress business... and the standing orders committee first report which we will come to later this mor this morning. And then in addition there are the thirty one composite motions that regions have agreed since the pre-congress delegates' meetings... and finally an index to the general motions... so that's very much an explanation for the benefit of first-time delegates to congress. Can we now proceed to welcome the Deputy Mayor... to ask him to give us a civic welcome. Can I introduce and welcome the Deputy Lord Mayor of the city of Portsmouth... Councillor Jim. Jim was born in Buttleberry Berkshire... and comes from a farming stroke dairy background. a short time in farming Councillor worked for Fosters Electrical Engineers, Basingstoke... as an electrician's mate. He joined the Royal Navy in nineteen fifty one as a cook... being demobbed in nineteen fifty eight. In the same year he joined British Gas Southern as a driver in the transport section... he has now nearly completed thirty four years' service with British Gas and has been a member of this trade union for nearly thirty four years. Jim was elected to Portsmouth city council in nineteen seventy six as a member for where I understand he tried to play football occasionally... until nineteen eighty six. After a year off he then returned as a member to the in nineteen eighty seven. During his term as councillor Jim has served as chairman of the transportation committee and also on numerous committees. Outside council business Mr is a representative of the Langstone Harbour Board... activities... the Lord Chancellor's advisory committee and has been governor of five local schools. Jim is married to Joy who has lived in Portsmouth all her life... they have one daughter Julie who still lives with them in. Jim's hobbies include philately... an interest in most sporting events... walking his dog in the countryside and do-it-yourself. Can I thank Jim very much indeed for attending our conference this morning and ask him to give us a civic welcome. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Jim:] Mr President... brothers, sisters, and friends... I know I'm amongst many friends here. I am delighted to be here today to open the G M B congress for nineteen ninety three as Deputy M Mayor of this great city of Portsmouth, and not Manchester. [clapping] Mr Chairman, er, I'd like to thank you for those nice words of introduction... but I am particularly delighted as I am a lifelong member of the G M B, of almost thirty five years' standing, due to my employment with British Gas and my long membership with the Labour Party. The G M B annual conference is the supreme policy making body within the union... all members... branches... officers and sections... national committees and conferences... are subject to its authority. I know the congress considers and determines all questions of policy affecting the general... industry, political or social welfare of membership... and attracts around two thousand five hundred delegates, visitors and guests. This includes leading British and European politicians... representatives of foreign embassies in the United Kingdom... international trade union leaders... senior industrialists and employers. The G M B is widely hailed to be the most progressive British trade union and is regarded as a key opinion former of all matters of industrial and economic and social policies. The G M B's influence in the British labour movement and congress also provides a sounding board for the views of the political nature which can have a significant impact on the direction of the Labour Party. Mr President... Portsmouth is a thriving maritime city with much to be proud of... we have many supreme attractions... Victory... Mary Rose and Warrior amongst others... which I hope you will have a chance to visit some time during your stay here in Portsmouth. Our ferry port which opened in nineteen seventy six is now the second largest ferry port on the south coast and it is city-owned... yielding profit... they are reinvested back into our city. We are very proud to be the home of the Royal Navy even though we have suffered tremendously from the defence cuts. We are confident that we can overcome these difficulties by encouraging diversification within our local industries. We are delighted to have you here... you are most welcome... we do hope you will enjoy yourself so much you will return as soo as soon as you can, to perhaps take advantage of our ferry port links with Normandy, and now Bilbao in Spain. It now leaves me with only the very pleasant duty to declare the congress open and to wish it great success. I hope my duties will allow me to spend some time with you, but I will be attending this evening's Red Rose Rally and I look forward to seeing you there. Thank you all very much. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, to... to mark the event on the occasion of Councillor 's, er... civic address and welcome to conference, it's my great pleasure to present by John and a suitably inscribed tankard made by our members in Sheffield. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, can I extend a very warm welcome to a number of special guests who are attending conference... Ryan, head of the international department of... and John, U S Embassy's councillor for labour affairs... I'm not sure exactly where our colleagues are... yes John... [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] and an omnibus vote of, er, an omnibus welcome for a very large number of colleagues who are attending, er... conference this year, Kevin, Birmingham regional president... Jack, retired Lancashire regional secretary... John, retired Liverpool regional secretary... John, retired London regional secretary... Cyril, retired Midland regional secretary, hang on, it goes on... Andrew, retired Northern regional secretary... Jim, Scottish retired regional secretary... Derek, retired Southern regional secretary... it's a good job we've got a good pension fund [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Dick:] but one that's gonna top all that without any shadow of a doubt, he must be the youngest pensioner this side of the Mississippi... and that's Alan, retired executive officer... who's on a busman's holiday this week... Roger union solicitor... Bill retired N I O, hopefully won't be having any accidents this week... retired education and training manager. A warm welcome colleagues to all our colleagues. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] The general member auditors, er, I'm told that they, they look after the money... they've not been able to find themselves seats I understand this morning, so hopefully everything's in order... but somewhere around... Eric... George and Arthur... are they around? Oh they're there, ah they're at the front, that's the best place for them. A warm welcome colleagues. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] And trusty Jim [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Now, we've got quite a long list, colleagues, of, er, members of the European Parliament and members of Parliament who will be with us during the course of the week for... for short stays... er Euro European MPs first, er Linden, Cheshire West... secretary of the European P L P... Steven, Durham, deputy leader of the European P L P... Hugh, Strathclyde West... Barry, Yorkshire West... and from the G M B parliamentary group, er, these MPs may only be present for short periods... Nicholas, Newcastle-upon-Tyne East... Doug, Newcastle-upon-Tyne North... Gerald,... George, Hamilton... Clive Hammersmith... and Giles who's drawn the short straw, who's going to give us an address this morning. Colleagues, a warm welcome to all our parliamentary colleagues. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] And the official verbatim writers... couple of people who work very hard indeed... er, during the course of the week... Mavis and Michael... Mavis, sorry, and Michael... warm welcome colleagues. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] And colleagues, a couple of colleagues that, er, few of us appear to appreciate from time to time, and those are the signers who do a very important job for some delegates who are here this week. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] That's Margot and Brenda... our colleague on the platform and our colleague sat there... welcome. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Can I now ask the general secretary to do the roll call... John. [John:] John calling the roll... Birmingham and West Midlands... [response can be heard in background]... Lancashire region... [response]... Liverpool, North Wales and Irish... [response] London... [response] Midland and East Coast... [response] Northern... [response] G M B Scotland... [response] Southern... [response] South Western... [response] er Yorkshire and North Derbyshire... [response] er, those, er, changes that haven't already been notified, could they be notified to the congress office. Thanks President. [Dick:] Thank you very much John, and could I ask the General Secretary to deal with the appointment of. [John:] Er, Birmingham region, Brian, who will count G M B Scotland... Lancashire region, John who will count Southern... Liverpool region, Alan who will count South Western... London, Bill who will count Yorkshire... Midland, Colin who will count Birmingham... Northern, Derek who will count Lancashire... G M B Scotland, Mary, who will count Liverpool... Southern, Jack who will count London... South Western, John, the other John, who will count Midland... Yorkshire, Ray who will count Northern... er, and now the pep talk... it should be emphasized that tellers must remain in the congress hall while congress is in session... and of course that delegates must be in their allotted seats when a vote is taken. Colleagues, can I now take, er, a moment of your time and it gives me very great pleasure to call upon the President to deliver his address to congress. Your President, Dick. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much, er, conference, and indeed it gives me great pleasure to address you this morning. You may recall delegates who were at congress last year, that I spoke about governments having the moral support of the people. Not just having a majority in parliament to govern you... and that was being described at that particular time by the Tory government that their majority would be adequate... they had a majority of twenty one. But much has happened in that short fourteen months since the general election. And we said that people would realize the mistake in voting Tory... and haven't they? Manufacture industry barely surviving... thousands of job losses... a public service borrowing requirement at a staggering fifty billion pounds... Black Wednesday devaluation... government climb-downs, U-turns, defeats on Maastricht, the mines, education, railway privatization... V A T on heating bills. The country effectively run by fourteen Tory backbenchers... a Prime Minister who was told by his Party and has been told by his, by the country consistently to get rid of a chancellor who is totally and utterly incompetent. And after losing all but one of the shire counties and a major by-election defeat... sacks his chancellor and then effectively promotes to number two in the government the person who wants his job! And the right wing of the Tory Party in open rebellion. A government clearly that is split both politically and is totally incompetent... the government's majority is now down to eighteen and all the predictions are that within a few weeks it will be down to seventeen. It will be amazing if this government runs the full course... and as we saw in nineteen nineties... the Tories just love leadership elections... putting the knife in. What they don't like is turning up at the House of Commons and having to do some work, because they can't stand the pressure. The Economist... that bastion of left wing thinking... commissioned an actuary to estimate the likely number of vacancies during a parliament... ten point seven three... sorry to be precise about this colleagues... Tory MPs can be expected to die over a full five year term, I'm sorry for being morbid. Rebellion is now a habit that could become institutionalized. I suppose on both there is such a thing as divine providence... there is as much chance of Major holding the Tories together as Manchester City winning the Premier League! [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [Dick:] In Britain, unlike many parliamentary democracies in the world, we have an opposition that is actually paid to oppose the government of the day... I think. Last year, this union held a ballot... and a hundred and forty thousand members took part in that ballot for the leader of the Labour Party... and they made it absolutely clear to the executive that as far as they were concerned they wanted a part and a say in who was the leader of the Labour Party, and they di decided dem democratically. For the last six months the momentum has grown... we've been lectured to by ex-leaders of the Party... by ex-parliamentary stars... by Give-us-a-Meal Roy... by budding prima donnas by the wagon-load, [shouting] telling us how we should be gagged []! And how they should be no longer answerable to ordinary working people... they know best, they will decide... their political record is far from impressive... lost four general elections... the last one was on their agenda! You remember it... the razzmatazz... no trade union involvement, involved... keep out of it boys, we'll deal with it. On the doorsteps in Rochdale, in Newcastle, in Birmingham, in Nottingham, there wasn't a mention by, of the trade union movement. It was not a trade union agenda. And there was no public outcry. We do indeed have the right to ask... who really are our friends? Amongst the activists in branch, at branch and constituency level there is much speculation about the parliamentary leadership's desire to br bring in one member one vote. O M O V... you can't buy it at the chemist... it isn't a new type of bread for some religious festival... it's not a new cleaning detergent... O M O V... what is O M O V? It narrows the franchise of those entitled to vote in the Labour Party because the fact of the matter is the Labour Party membership is declining. So all these people who lecture to us about democracy should really examine the situation... it's got nothing to do with democracy whatsoever... when less people are entitled to have a say. Do they want to float free... answerable to no one and free to trade with other political parties... of political power in exchange for new voting systems, which have absolutely no credibility with us and absolutely have no credibility with the British people, cos they don't want it! We stand for a de democratic party... but we will not allow a bunch of politicians to hijack this party! [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] The fundamental issue is this... that if the Labour Party is to remain a party of labour... it must have as an integral part the trade union movement, [shouting] it's as simple as that, colleagues []! [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] And for those who want to propose alternative tenuous links for the good of their own egos... whether they be members of Parliament or full-time officers of other trade unions... they do this movement no credit or good whatsoever. For those who cannot maintain, who cannot support the maintenance of the links of the trade union movement Party, we say this... [shouting] start packing your bags... there's the door, we'll stick around []! [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Instead of shooting ourselves in the foot our people are asking, where does the fi fight start? Against the worst and most incompetent government in living memory. The Timex workers in Dundee... left without any legal protection whatsoever, and is this a forerunner for what other unscrupulous employers will use? The attack on the trade union movement... check-off our, our existence... the existence of the trade union movement is under attack... union membership and others... the shipyard workers at Swan Hunter... the thousands of local authority workers who have lost their jobs... [shouting] those are the issues in which our parliamentary party should be addressing now on behalf of our people []! [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Last year congress carried a motion on racism and fascism... expressing its alarm at the rise of fascism and racism in Germany and France... this has always been a trade union issue. We were the first union in nineteen seventy six to come out with our policy on the then Race Relations Act... it's always been a trade union issue... whether it was the trade unions in Germany in the twenties and thirties... fighting Hitlerism and Nazi-ism... or whether it was the trade unions fighting Moseley and his black shirts in Britain... it has always been part of our ideals and principles. We stand for solidarity between workers of all races and colours and we are opposed and must stop unscrupulous politicians and racist groups using the race issue to divide working people! [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] We thought that last year... we hoped that last year, the murder of migrant workers in and the demonstrations of fascist thugs was clearly not isolated. We are appalled at the attack and murder of the migrant Turkish workers and their families in Germany. And in Britain between nineteen eighty eight and nineteen ninety one there has been a doubling of racist attacks... in large areas of London it is now commonplace for such attacks to take place. The facts are there... there has been a staggering rise in attacks and murders... this union must take the lead... we call for the British government to bring in legislation to ban the evil nationalist and fascist political parties, and insist that government strengthens legal protection for third country nationals. We want the E E C to do the same... we don't want pious statements... we don't want words... we need action and deeds now, colleagues. Colleagues, we have much work to do and many challenges to face. Trade union congress will shortly have a new general secretary... a new leader. The G M B has argued for change in how the T U C operates. We believe the T U C's role should be one of more services to its affiliates... to direct membership... with greater emphasis on health and safety and recruitment. New unions have now emerged which we have not faced before... we must not dodge these challenges because they may appear difficult or hard... and we must be prepared to learn off anybody who has something to show us... to close our minds would be a mistake. Colleagues, eight years ago our union, along with other organizations in the trade union movement, balloted for a political fund. Five hundred thousand of our members took part in that particular ballot... four hundred and fifty thousand of our members decided that they would support a political fund... it was the first awakening, in my opinion, since nineteen forty five of the political views of ordinary trade union members. Shortly congress... this union will be required to ballot again on this politically motivated move. I believe again that our members will support the call and in so doing call for a general election to dismiss this totally incompetent government! Thank you very much indeed. [speaker002:] [clapping] I would like to now to call on Steve, Dick's namesake, regional secretary of Midland region, to move the vote of thanks. [Steve:] President, colleagues, Steve, on behalf of the central executive council Midland and East Coast region, and can I assure delegates today that this is not an outbreak of nepotism. Whilst it might be unusual for, probably unique in fact, for a to thank a, can I reassure all delegates we are not related... so rumour has it. President... just spelt out... very clearly... why in fact we're in the G M B... and three words came to my mind... three very simple words... compassion... care... and change. Compassion for the victims of this sick Tory society... compassion for the millions of people who have no work... compassion for the victims of racists and racisms... compassion for the victims of the public service cuts, whether it be the miserable one and a half percent pay offers... compulsory competitive tendering... job cuts, low pay, the pensioners, the elderly, the sick, the child, the list is never ending. And who picks up many of these victims? Well the G M B does. When this government talks about safety nets for those in need, I tend to look six inches below ground level to find it... often the G M B is the only safety net above the ground... which leads me to my second word... we do this because we care... we care about our country... our economy, and our people. We care about the old age pensioners... the poor... the single parents... and all those people who in a winter's time are going to struggle and some are tragically going to fail to pay seventeen and a half percent V A T on fuel and heating bills. We care about low pay and low incomes... and it's estimated that in this country... this so-called wealthy country... that we have about eleven million people now on or just below E C poverty standards. Twenty percent of our population... one in five... what a disgrace. Which actually then brings me to my third and last point... President... care needs change. Now we need change to benefit our people... our members... your families and your friends. And we need a political voice to do that, President... a political voice and influence through a Labour Party that's committed to strive for our goals... by working with us and through us... and we're not ashamed of our links with the Labour Party. I just wondered, colleagues if Azil Nadir of Polly Peck fame... currently I understand sunbathing in Northern Cyprus... would be prepared to say how proud he is to be associated with the Tories... of course in saying that I do include Michael Mates, and I just wondered whether or not this watch he sent was in fact a Timex watch. We have no hidden gifts and no hidden donations to the Labour Party... we have an open and upfront relationship with them and we intend to carry that through. You referred to the ex-parliamentary stars, President... the budding prima donnas well I should, I would suggest that they ought to go away and look at their roots. We in the G M B know about our roots and we always will because of a very, another important word... we're accountable... we're accountable in the real world to real people with real issues and real problems... not the hothouse world of some sections of the Parliamentary Labour Party. We need to get on with the real tasks... working closely together... the G M B and the Labour Party... because working together will achieve the objectives of change for the good. Now cousin, oh er ah, I'm sorry, erm, President, because you know you get all sorts of distortions on this don't you... can I say, President, er, cos call him brother... at times... colleagues, on behalf of congress, can I thank you President, very very much for the very positive and very strong challenges that you've put before us, and the theme that I believe will carry us through the rest of the week. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed, Steve. Can I now, er, ask congress to stand as a mark of respect for departed colleagues... [John:] [speaking very quietly] Colleagues, while we're standing, can I remind you of a number of colleagues of ours who have died in the past year... George, national office... Dick from Scotland... of South Western region... Lord from Southern region... Julie from Southern region... William from national office... from Northern region... from Birmingham... Harry, London regional secretary... Grace from London region... from Yorkshire region... and many many others not mentioned here that have given their energy and their commitment on behalf of the G M B members, we remember them all... [Dick:] Thank you very much colleagues... Colleagues, can I ask the general secretary to report on the constitution of the standing orders committee. [John:] The standing orders committee is made up as follows... Birmingham region, John... Lancashire region, Noel... Liverpool, Les, London John, Midland Paddy, Northern Jerry... G M B Scotland John... Southern Peter, South Western Keith, Yorkshire Kevin... and I am delighted to tell you that the standing orders committee have elected as chairman this year, John. [Dick:] Thanks very much. Will conference confirm the appointment of standing orders committee?... [general sounds of approval] Thanks very much. And could I now call upon the Chair of the standing orders committee, John, to move standing orders committee report number one. [John:] President, congress... on behalf of the standing orders committee, I move standing orders committee report number one, which you will find on pages one four six to one four eight of the final agenda. On behalf of the committee I wish to thank all of those delegates and their regional secretaries who cooperated so well in agreeing thirty one composite motions. The composites are printed on pages one four one to one seven six of the final agenda. Since the report was printed the committee has given permission for a bucket collection to be taken at the end of this afternoon's session for our colleagues involved in the dispute. The committee has also ruled that an emergency motion from the Southern region on the Crawley disp Crawley dispute is in order and will be emergency motion number one. The committee has given permission for a bucket collection to be taken at the end of congress on Monday to help these colleagues as well. Would the officers from Southern and Birmingham regions who'll be, who will be responsible for these collections, please come to the S O C immediately on completion of this report. The standing orders committee has been involved... I'm sorry, the standing orders committee has been informed that the central executive council has withdrawn motion two. The standing orders committee has also been informed that the central executive council will submit to congress a special motion on Swan Hunter... a special motion on a proposed transfer of engagement from the Furniture, Timber and Allied Trades Union. The central executive council will also submit to congress a motion, number one O six A, amending rule sixty seven. President, congress, I move S O C report number one. [Dick:] Thank you very much, John. Conference accept er conference arrangement report... thanks very much. Yes. [Hughie:] Chair, I'd like to challenge standing orders on motion three O one..., an example being in the part-time workers' qualification into... it was done by a recommendation of and we therefore request that it stays on the agenda. [Dick:] That was motion three O one, colleague... that three O one? Three O one... anybody else on the S O C reports?... John. [speaker002:] Thank you [Dick:] Yes. [Peggy:] Well it seems that, er, motion [Dick:] Could you give your name please, colleague? [Peggy:] Oh yes, Hughie, London region. Motion one O nine... it states here, this motion seeks to amend rule T twenty one. Now, I've gone right through all the bloody rules to this and I can't see where this has been expired. If it has, it should be printed. concerned... this rule still stands... and it has not expired. So... [Dick:] Okay [Peggy:] Could we have clarification of that, [Dick:] Okay... John. [John:] Thank you President. Motion three O one... motion three O one specifically calls for changes to the local government superannuation scheme through the steering committee. That committee is in effect a negotiating body. This motion should therefore be dealt with by the committee itself... but before it is, it should be considered by the relevant local authority industrial conference. It is a pure term of, and conditions motion. The mover of the motion might want to take part in the debate on motion three seven one, pensions.... Motion one O nine seeks to amend rule T twenty one, paragraph six. That rule is part of the rule governing the transition from the B M S section to the technical crafts section. It opens with the words... for the period ending the third of December nineteen ninety one. The technical crafts section national committee shall consist of... congress will appreciate that the clause ceased to have any relevance on the fourth of December nineteen ninety one... it would be quite illogical to seek to make a respect retrospective amendment to this rule. President and congress, I move. [Dick:] Thanks very much, John. Do our two colleagues wish to press the reference back?... Colleague! [whistles to gain attention] Do you, do you wish to, hang on a minute Hughie. Colleague! Do you wish to continue with the reference back? No... Hughie? Do you wish to press the reference? No, don't come back again Hughie... do you wish to press the reference back? You do. Reference back has been moved, colleagues, is that seconded?... Yes, it's seconded. All those in favour of the reference back of S O C report number one... against... that's lots. All those in favour of the S O C report... against... that's carried. Thanks very much John. [John:] Thank you. [Dick:] Colleagues, we now to come to a, an item on the agenda... which is always very pleasurable at our annual conference... and I refer of course to the presentation of the G M B gold badge. And this morning we're presenting two activists with the gold badge... the women and the men's... and during the course of the week, we'll be presenting the youth award to one of our young members. If I could first of all deal with the presentation of the women's gold badge... and the executive has decided that the award should go this year to Peggy from the Midland and East Coast region. Peggy has been a member of the union for twenty three years... been a shop steward for eleven years... the last nine at K P Foods... and also branch quality officer, been a branch committee member and a member of the Midland and East Coast regional council... member of the regional Labour women's conference and she's been to G M B congress, congress on a number of occasions. And Peggy's represented the G M B at the international women's... er, food conference in Gene Geneva. Peggy's held numerous positions in... [tape change] and trades councils. She's been a school governor... a Labour councillor... T L P executive member... member of the Social Security and industrial tribunals. And, quite frankly, colleagues, the list is endless. But it's not a question of holding office for the sake of holding office. Whenever Peggy has been asked to serve, she's willingly and gladly undertaken the duties. She was the first woman delegate to the Humberside County Association of Trades Councillors... and the first woman on the executive... and has had an enormous impact on the Association's efforts on women's issues. But I think that the greatest tribute of all that can be paid to Peggy, and I feel sure it would come from her members... and it's this, and it's basically what the trade union movement is all about... and it's about representing ordinary people at the shop floor... because whenever anybody asks Peggy to do anything for them, to represent them, she's always the first one there. Colleagues, an excellent record and a worthy winner of the G M B's gold badge... Peggy. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [long pause with background noise with talking and people moving about] [Peggy:] President, colleagues, I am so proud and honoured to receive this gold badge, more so because this is the award given to me by you President, I do want to thank a number of people I also want to thank the regional secretary, Steve, who thank you, Steven, for your support and guidance. Next, I would like to thank John for his support and encouragement I'd like to mention Carole who has always been there when I've needed At this point who again has always been very supportive I also want to thank members of the regional both past and present, but particularly I'd like to thank all the regional officers and staff for their assistance and particularly George, Hugh and the officer I would also like to thank regional political officer for the Midlands and East Coast... we now hold all the major positions of the Labour Party with I would also like to thank the national food and leisure committee for their help and support and particularly to David, Nick and... To conclude, President, I'd like to express my sincere thanks and love to those important people around me, my family. I pay a great tribute to my dad, who as a trade unionist on the railway would have been so proud to see me receive this very great honour. To my mum who along with my dad helped me my daughter, who I'm very proud of as now she's started taking greater interest in G M B. To my mum who at the moment doesn't enjoy the best of health, who over the years has had to endure a daughter who, er, on some occasions has not been a very great help to her, has guided me through very difficult times, as mums always do. Finally, to the one person who throughout my life has been a great friend and now my husband,. I don't know how to put into words the very great depth of gratitude that I owe for his patience, for his advice, and for his friendship, but most of all the love and respect that I, as I have for him. Conference, I accept this award on behalf of all women activists within my union because, sisters, we know it's not always easy for women, however, I'm here to prove that we can achieve, but we need the encouragement and support of our male colleagues. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] [shouting] Thanks very much Peggy []. Colleagues, I now come to the presentation of the G M B gold award for men. Erm... I can personally testify that the, the award winner that this year is somebody that I've known for something like twenty six, twenty seven years. Again another colleague with a really outstanding record of service... not only to the trade union movement and the Party but more so to the G M B... and I refer to Eric from the Lancashire region. Erm... Eric in, in Manchester from where he comes is extremely well known... obviously within the G M B... but his record he's one of the individuals in the trade union movement that I think are becoming somewhat of a rarity these days... I know that many of us when we first started in the movement were very easily able, and, and very relaxed about combining trade union and political activities together... but of course as time goes on and, you do tend to become more involved in the one and the other, because of course it's all time-consuming... but I can honestly say that in Eric's case... he's never deviated one iota from his commitment both to the trade union, this union in particular, [LAUGHTER] and [] to the Party... never deviated at all. He spent a great deal of time in his efforts certainly for this trade union... and in recruitment where he works, he's made it not hundred percent, hundred and ten percent... and is constantly, er, recruiting... constantly recruiting. Politically... well yes he's involved at every level as indeed many comrades are... but if, the sign of his political influence, I think is as follows... that if there are any... anything major going down... in his territory... any major political problems coming up, then the leader of the council, one of the first people he contacts is Eric. Er, what goes on behind those closed doors, even I don't know. [clapping] But that's a measure of his influence. The other thing I would say is this... that... the management, whilst they very rarely agree with what Eric has got to say... I've never met a member of management at any level, at any level... that doesn't respect what he's got to say... and that's a tremendous, er... psychological blow before they even get round the table, because he's completely disarming... and his record in terms as vic er for, of victories, for individual members and groups of mem er, members, er, is legendary and I think apart from his ability it's the respect in which he's held by, by everybody, by everybody. So I could go on at great length, colleagues, to tell you that he's on this committee and that committee well er and that would take me a good half hour because he's, he's on, he's involved in everything... in everything in the Party... in the union... erm, and his commitment is absolutely second to none. I was absolutely delighted, colleagues, when the, er, recommendation came through that Eric should be awarded the gold badge because I could personally testify that there can be no better winner or holder of the G M gold badge. Eric colleagues. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Eric:] Thank you. Well I think I heard the violins then, you know. [clapping] I really did. Ah, what I'm going to say today, this is not me swan song... don't anybody think it's me swan song. Though I've retired, I'm still active for the G M B in my city... and six to eight weeks of retirement nearly did for me trolley... so before anybody jumps for it, think about it, because it's boring. Now down to business... I would like to thank the executive for awarding me this gold badge. Many times I have sat down there... amongst you the, the delegates, and seen the acti activists receive this, this award. I never thought that I would join their ranks... for me being the steward and the convenor was always enough. It was what I wanted, to receive the gold badge is pure bonus... thank you, thank you executive committee. Many people own a share of this gold badge... with me, my wife and family, who have helped and supported me in whatever I have been involved in... especially Betty. Over the years the G M B has been a major part of our family life... the night meetings... sometimes being away from home... the disputes I have been involved in... you have shared them with me and listened to me, and because of my involvement you have always supported me. Thank you Betty... for helping me to win this award. and sweepers who I always represented, and though I am now retired, I cannot do without them. Also the other men and women I represented when I became convenor... they made me what I am and I thank them. My region I thank for nominating me... the region I am so proud to belong to. To my regional secretary, Ernie... Ernie, remember when we occupied the Manchester City Council chamber on council day? You kept saying we'll all be locked up, [clapping] yet you stayed with us. I was hoping we would get locked up, [LAUGHTER] to have shared a cell with you, it would have been hilarious, really []! I have laughed at that thought many times... these are the things to remember. Ernie, I thank you. Nearly thirty years ago now, as an honorary member, I organized a thir first strike in my depot. Our then new young branch secretary came in to sort out our grievance... before he left the yard, our grievance was sorted, and I was the new collection steward. Oh... just been a collection steward, the new young secretary said. I said, just a collection steward, that is the agreement. Yes, said, so the agreement between us was made... signed in blood I thought... then I shook hands with him... the signature faded before he left the yard. When I remind him of our agreement now he tells me to get lost. On the handshake... it was only when I got notified that I'd been awarded the gold badge, I realized I never got my hand back that day. It was a fair price to pay, Richard... I made a good and trusted friend that day. Life for me has never been dull around you... what more could I ask? Thank you, Richard. Richard, our enemies were always the Tories and the bosses and we have fought them for everything we got. We still have our two traditional enemies, but now a third looms... an enemy in the Labour Party... an enemy supporting the now ancient cry of the Tories and the Tory national press, for one man one vote replacing the vote in the trade unions... a distancing of the Labour Party from the unions... if we let them get away with this, it would mean none of the established political parties represent the interests of ordinary working people... the people who I've always represented, that's what I think about, just them! Business and employers organizations are well represented in parliament... their secret funding of the Tory Party buys them influence and Tory Party policies, and nothing is said. We need to be in the Labour Party... it is only there that we the unions can take part in making policy about the future of our industries and services, and taking care of our members. Better that we get rid of these people... in the Labour Party if they do not want our involvement... let them go and form their own party, as a trade union ordinarily formed [shouting] originally formed the Labour Party []! [speaker002:] [clapping] [Eric:] And that must be the cry... tell them, go and join your own party. Let us remind the Labour Party that they should be attacking this useless Tory government, not supporting them, not voting with them, not supporting them by abstaining when necessary... we'll never get power that way! We must organize against them in the wards and in the constituencies to drive this menace out! [speaker002:] [clapping]... [long applause and background talking] [Dick:] Well, we've now got a member of the parliamentary panel to follow that colleagues. [clapping] [LAUGHTER] I can see him coming as well [speaker002:] Settle down President. [Dick:] Er, colleagues... it's now my great pleasure to ask Giles, MP for Durham North, to address congress on behalf of the G M B parliamentary panel. Giles is a longstanding me I must finish my speech [Giles:] Sorry [Dick:] Gi [Giles:] I'm so eager to get to my [Dick:] Yes I know, I know. I'll be watching very very carefully. Erm... Giles is a longstanding member of this union, colleagues, and... er, many colleagues may not realize it, but was formerly the res the national research officer of the union for many years before he, he entered parliament... and of course, from time to time, enters into the script of things... and many colleagues will know that er... one of the great biographers of the trade union movement is of course, Constructive Militant... you know, a must for all G M B new stewards and new convenors and branch secretaries... a must to be read. Giles is the author of that particular work. Colleagues, it's my pleasure to call upon Giles to address congress this morning. Giles. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Giles:] Dick, thank you for those kind words, er, specially about er my book, and I think I am considering appointing you as my agent... er, you also said er that I'd dr drawn the short straw... indeed you er whispered to me that I was the sacrificial lamb this morning... well we'll see about that... but I do know that I have the great honour to be invited to speak to congress this morning on behalf of the G M B parliamentary group. Now the G M B parliamentary group is a powerful and influential organization... it's well balanced between front-benchers and back-benchers, between men and women... and between the youthful and, how shall I put it, the more experienced... and as you would expect, its members are prominent in the attack on this weak, incompetent, and rudderless Conservative government. But I want to begin this morning by thanking you on behalf of the group, because all of us owe the G M B an enormous debt of gratitude... none more than myself. It's no exaggeration to say that I owe my start in politics to the G M B... because after having worked, as Dick said, for the G M B for a number of years... it was the support of the G M B which helped me win the nomination for Chesterly Street... and in the early eighties I can remember when er the Labour Party was going through a difficult period... it was officials and members of the G M B who were a steadying influence in my constituency, as they have been ever since. And when, as shadow education spokesman, I was a frontline campaigner in the nineteen eighty seven election, it was the G M B which provided me with the necessary facilities to carry out that role, and I thank them for it. Throughout my political life, I've received restain sustained help from the G M B. In a very real sense, the union has been my political family. Now I've dwelt for a moment on my own experience because I think it epitomizes that of the Labour Party as a whole... from to John, the G M B has been a tower of strength... always there to assist... not only with money and resources, but also with advice and support... and on behalf of my parliamentary colleagues, I want to thank the union for all it is, it has done for the Labour Party. And I want to stress this morning how essential it is that the link between the Labour Party and the unions be maintained. Now there have been some allegations flying around that there are people in the parliamentary Labour Party who want to get rid of that link... and I want to categorically say that there is no serious figure in the Labour Party who shares that opinion... there's no one in the G M B group who takes that view... there's no one in the Shadow Cabinet... and what is more, I know from my own personal experience, and my dealings with him over thirty years, that there is no greater supporter of the trades union link than John Smith himself!... It was Ernest who said that the Labour Party grew out of the bowels of the trades union movement. But it isn't just a matter of history. There are strong, practical arguments for the link today... for the trades unions... trades union involvement in the Party ensures that trades union interests are represented in parliament. In addition unions have wider social and political concerns and objectives beyond collective bargaining which are best represented through the Labour Party. For their part... for the, for the part of the Labour Party, trades unionists provide a solid and substantial electoral base which, which, which will hopefully increase during the nineteen nineties. And there is also the crucial issue of political financing which we've heard about already this morning, and which is such a vexed question in French... Spanish, and Italian politics... now everybody wants to see more money coming from an expanded, er, political membership. There is also the case for state financing, which is the position of the Party... but for the foreseeable future the Labour Party will need trades union money, and as Steve said... even our fiercest critics have to admit that the money the union gives to the Party is open and above board... and that's more than can be said of the money that's used to finance the Conservative Party. The Tories don't publish proper accounts. There are sinister stories of donations from dubious sources including Communist China and Azil Nadir. Indeed... arguably... the only reliable evidence of who has given money to the Tory Party is the honours list which is published twice a year! But... as important as our joint interests are our shared values and I think a very good example of this is our common approach, er er, to the question of the Social Chapter for which the Labour opposition... led, I may say, by two leading G M B spokesmen... Jack and George... the Labour opposition has fought long and hard for this in parliament, indeed, we have secured a vote on the question... er, after the Queen's ascent, and last month, I myself, as a guest of the Danish social democrats, took the argument to the continent in the Danish referendum, in the second Danish ref referendum, which I'm very glad to say was won! All of us in the European socialist movement... in the European trades union movement... insists that employees are not just units of production, but are entitled to rights at work across the European community. So the real question facing us at the moment is not whether there should be a relationship, or whether there should be a link... but in what way we should modernize it and arrange it today. Our constitutional arrangements were established as long ago as nineteen eighteen... though it's true, of course, that they were amended in nineteen eighty, eighty one. But I think it's fair to say that the changes in the n nine, early nineteen eighties... particularly those which gave the unions a predominant position in choosing the leader, were not of the unions' making, certainly not of the G M B's making, as I know from personal experience at the time. I think that in the nineteen nineties, there is agreement that some reform is need is needed... that there should be a better balance between the different groups at conference, and that decision making in the parties should be seen to be democratic... open and based on one person one vote. But it's no secret, however... and er we've heard echoes of that this morning... that there is a lively debate as to the pre precise details of what a reform package should be. John Smith... the leader of our Party... has put forward his own personal preference for one member one vote for the selection of candidates, with a special cut rate for trades unionists who pay the political levy. Now his view obviously has to be seriously considered... put forward, as it is, by a leader who has the support, when he was elected, of ninety percent of the Party, including ninety percent of the unions. So we will have to consider it. Now... speaking to you, as chairman of the G M B parliamentary group... I can tell you that we have met twice over the last few weeks on this issue of modernization... and we are agreed on the need to avoid a damaging public row from which everybody... yes including the unions, will lose. What is clearly required is a constructive solution which provides a proper basis for modernizing our joint relationships. And I think it is, we would all agree, that it is essential that an agreement which is acceptable to all sides is reached, and I'm sure that it's going to be... because let us not forget that we're not in business to remain in perpetual opposition... if we are to achieve proper rights for employees, which have been so reduced by the Conservatives... if we are to save the welfare state, which is now so under threat... if we are to obtain decent health and education services, which are also under threat... if we are to create a strong economy and a strong recovery which provides the jobs which we so desperately need... then we must win power! And with your help, a modernized Labour Party will be in a very strong position to turn out this disastrous government... working together, we shall win, we can win... and we shall! Thank you very much indeed. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much indeed, Giles, for that address. Er, colleagues, before we turn to a period of, er, rule amendments and general motions, could I just advise congress that a pair of spectacles have been handed in... er, Vision Express, look like, well they could be ladies or gents, multi-sexual these days, colleagues. Very nice pair and a very nice brown case. I understand they were, they're better than the general secretary's anyway. Yours colleague.

[Dick:] Okay, thanks. Right colleagues, could we turn to a period of rule amendments and er general motions now. Rule thirty seven on branches, er motion seventy seven, rule amendment to be moved by the Midland and East Coast region. [cough] And colleagues, could I start and remind delegates that if there are seconders or additional speakers on this side, if they would use this rostrum to my right, if they would use this rostrum. Now there are chairs available for additional speakers so if they would come down it would certainly expedite the business of congress. [Ken:] Thanks President. President, conference, Ken Midlands and East Coast region moving motion seventy seven, otherwise known as go-lightly. Conference, this particular motion calls for an increase of members required to form a branch or be allowed to continue as a branch should it lose members. An increase from fifty to a hundred members would allow greater flexibility for our regional committees in the regions to decide whether they allow the branch to continue or to amalgamate with another branch. Therefore the increase in numbers to a hundred, for this particular rule, seems to be a logical move, as a branch with less than fifty would be unrepresentative of the G M B both from a democracy point of view and an administration point of view where cost plays an enormo important role. With the document being debated this week, we should beware of making branches accountable to its members, and increasing the numbers to one hundred gives us a greater base to work from than fifty. Therefore conference, please support, I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much colleagues. Is that formally seconded? Formally seconded. are recommending you to accept motion seventy seven colleagues, all those in favour... against, that's carried. Thanks very much. Pensions and social security benefits, I call composite motion twenty six, women and state pensions. G M B Scotland to move and London region to second, priority in debates Northern region. Okay, if the seconder and additional speakers would come down to the front, please.... [pause while people take their places, background talking] [Mary:] Conference, chair, Mary, Falkirk, G M B Scotland. We have argued for many years that the present discrimination on the grounds of sex and state pensions and retirement age is unjustifiable. A much wider consultation process must be initiated, before far-reaching changes can be agreed. The whole question of an adequate income in retirement can be achieved, and changes necessary to enable them must be worked at. Few, if any, of the media commentators nowadays for the status quo. The need for equalization of state pension ages seems to be all but agreed. The main focus has centred round the age at which the basic state pension and SERPS are available and whether some flexibility is desirable. For this reason we will argue for current level basic state pensions and SERPS from the age of sixty, to both sexes. The present sixty, sixty five regime is discriminating against men, but when in reality it is the women who are in the much inferior position. The fact that families when one woman in six retires with an entitlement to a full basic pension, based on her own level of payments, speaks volumes. Even when members of occupational schemes, women's length of membership generally means that the level of benefit payable will be inferior to men. Many people are unaware of that fact. The fact that the basic state pension is not a universal benefit, but is based on the level of payment,. You have to earn enough for long enough, ninety percent of your working life, to qualify. Consequently we will argue that for the very least we need current levels of basic state pension and SERPS, and see that they are available to both men and women from the age of sixty. The conclusions are, discrimination must end at the earliest opportunity for both men and women... changes should include a full and p proper consultation exercise. For those in occupational schemes there should be a provision that if a person so wishes, they should be allowed to work to sixty five without any loss of pension rights. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker005:] Congress, president, Ed, Westminster trade union political staff's branch of the London region, seconding the composite. Congress, this composite is about a deceit, a deceit by the Tory government, of men and women, over their working lives... women in particular who have been contributing their stamp all their working lives and are now being told that there is a danger that they will not get their state pensions at sixty. Conference, it is absolutely vital that those people are protected. We must ensure that we campaign as hard as possible, that sixty becomes the state pension age for all our members, men and women. Congress, if as a trade union, and if as a labour movement, you stop going forward in campaigning, there's only one thing that happens... you start to go backwards, because this government will always try and take from working class people, all the time. We must campaign strongly to ensure that men and women still have a state pension that isn't just a pittance at sixty. I second. [speaker003:] [clapping] [John:] President, congress, John, supporting composite twenty six. We trust the C E C to campaign vigorously against the Tory Party proposal of increasing women's pension age to sixty five. This Tory proposal must be seen by one of the most unacceptable, and unprincipled acts of this government. Look at what they've done... given nine billion to their wealthy friends to move them into private pensions... supported pension holiday because company funds are so big... increased national insurance so we're all paying more, even though we get less... and compare this with the disadvantage, women first. Very few enjoy a personal pension... very few enjoy an occupational scheme... the greater majority gain nothing from SERPS... only one in six receive a full state pension. So you have on the one hand, handouts to the rich... on the other hand, money taken from the poor. A typical underhand, unprincipled Tory policy, wouldn't you say? A policy supported by their backing group, the C B I... both in the game of using frightening tactics in attempt to prove their case, saying whilst they would like to equalize pensions to sixty, it simply can't be afforded, claiming it would cost upwards of forty billion, and adding the usual, this cost will damage the economy. Whilst we all agree, they know how to damage the economy... we also know that the cost of equalizing at sixty would be no more than ten billion. Now it's funny, but same amount as they have spent on persuading their wealthy friends to take out private pensions. Congress, we are bound to come to only one conclusion... that equalizing pensions to sixty will be of benefit to all people, and the Tories are definitely not supporting that approach. and those in advantageous positions, the rest of us just don't count. Support our motion, don't let this unprincipled lot get away with this policy. Let's tell the people and do this with an effective national campaign. Thank you. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, could I just advise congress at this stage what we're, we've gotta do... erm, and I think this will form the basis of what we're trying to do to expedite business during the course of the week. We're gonna take groups of motions together, and in this particular section, the next one will be motion three six nine which will have movement seconded, motion three seventy, three seven one, three seven two and then composite twenty seven. Now there are several of those that will require a statement being accepted by the executive but there'll be a statement on behalf of the C E C, and there's at least one where there'll be a qualification. So, at the end of the debate I'm gonna ask the C E C speaker, in this case it will be the general secretary, John, to repl reply to the whole of the er, the debate. So, not saying that will be the situation in every case, but certainly there will be a number of occasions during the week, er when that kind of arrangement will apply, and hopefully it will help us to get through the business a little bit, er, quicker. I now call the mover of motion three six nine, standing charges to be moved by the Lancashire region... and if there is a seconder, if he or she could come down. [Bernie:] President, conference... with the introduction of V A T on gas and electric bills, this motion becomes even more important. It was bad enough when pensioners had to pay the standing charges on their gas, water and telephone bills. It is even worse now that they have got to pay V A T on those bills as well. These pensioners have to pay standing charges whether or not they use the service, just to ensure that they can use the service when needed. The telephone... is very often the only link these loyal citizens have with the outside world... they can no longer walk in safety to the local telephone box to make their calls, and even if they could, when they get there it is out of order. It is pensioners in particular who paid for British Telecom when it was owned by the State... their taxes ensured that the telephone system in the U K, it became amongst the best in the world. We owe it to these people and British Telecom owes it to these people... just let them pay for what they use... get rid of the standing charge. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] seconder. Formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion three seventy television licences. Lancashire region to move again... I know. [Bernie:] Well, up twice in the first day... er, sorry, Bernie, Lancashire region moving motion three seventy. President, conference, as I say, up twice in the first day... it's a cracking conference that starts with motion three seventy and works backwards to number one... it's better than Thunderbirds really. Seriously though, motions like this one have been debated over and over again. Anybody who disagrees with giving the pensioners the right to watch T V without having to pay a licence charge is either the English football manager... hoping to God nobody sees the team playing, or is a Norwegian player wanting to protect our old older members of the community from an early grave. Let's not be tight... let's not begrudge those who have paid into the system all their lives a bit back. Let them watch television... if they want... when they want... free of charge. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Bill:] President, congress... I've gotta up and say to you, I had, I've had to borrow the wife's glasses this morning cos I left mine in the car... [Dick:] Could we have your name [Bill:] Oh, you certainly can, Richard, it's Bill, Lancashire region, er, seconding motion three seventy, television licences. My television licence is a colour television and it costs me eighty three pound for this year. In nineteen eighty seven, it cost fifty seven pound... this has increased by almost twenty nine per cent in the last five years. When the government broke in, broke the link between the R P I and the old age pension, they must have known that this kind of rise would not be paid by our pensioners. Many of the millions of unemployed will also have trouble in finding the cash for this particular commitment.... many would also object to this kind of contribution to John 's wage packet. The television, for many old people who are afraid to go out at night, an important link with the outside world and the sources of ent entertainment. Many of the youngsters unemployed cannot afford to go out seeking entertainment and a television is an important part to them. This motion has been before this congress before and I am still pleased to be here to second this motion. John Major's classless society... is a pipe dream... for without money there are no grounds for freedom of choice or opportunity. It is... er, it is closer to a nasty video... let's make things a little more... compassionate, for those who are out of work, or are elderly. Pensioners who have given a lifetime's service to the nation should not be asked to pay for a T V licence, and those out of work through no fault of their own, except for a government policy. Congress I second. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three seven one, pensions, Southern region to move. [Charlie:] Thank you, Dick. Charlie, Southern region and a pension fund trustee. We have heard quite a lot, colleagues, about pensions and pension schemes over the last eighteen months... perhaps we have to actually thank Mr Maxwell for raising the issue, even if those pensioners he cheated won't thank him. There are even now other issues on the pensions debate... we have employers like Telecom using pension funds to fund redundancies... we now even have the government looking to see if they can get hold of pension fund money in British Rail and in the Coal Board to see if they can also fund job losses. These issues have been well raised and aired over the last few months... I would like to now raise another issue that I don't think has been publicized enough... that is the issue of under-provision in old age. This was very common in the past and I'm sure many shop stewards here who've dealt with redundancies in the past, know about the poor members who get quite a nice lump sum redundancy, but in fact, they've only been in pension schemes a short while, so they can't provide for themselves in old age, once they've spent the redundancy money. Now that has been addressed, particularly by the G M B, and we've campaigned to have pension funds in employ with employers to be open to all, so everybody can join pension funds. We've got a number of good pension funds that ordinary working people can join, but the issue that has come about since compulsory competitive tendering... privatization... is those members that've been in pension funds for maybe twenty, twenty five years... now they're out on the open job market... with the wonderful privatized world that we live in, with a free market, and they can't afford to make adequate pension provision for themselves. This time bomb is ticking away, colleagues, and in about twenty years' time, we'll be back to where we were... we'll have a lot of people who've got small pensions, based on their previous employment with a health authority or a local authority, British Gas or the electricity companies... then they've had to go out on the open market and they will be under-funded and have inadequate pension when they retire. But what they will have is a small pension that will be preventing them getting State Benefits... and they will be in the poverty trap. Now I don't believe that this issue has been aired wide enough... it's understood by a lot of people what the problems are going to be... these problems aren't gonna occur in the next ten years, they will happen in twenty years' time. Now I believe it's the duty of the G M B and the trade union movement to first publicize the problem... then we need a campaign and a strategy to avoid it, and that is going back to decent pension funds. Now the State has already got a problem because in the next century, it will have insufficient people at work to pay for old age pensions... we already know Mr Portillo is doing a pension review and is looking about only targeting it to the needy at the bottom... well that means a lot of people like you and me will miss out on State pensions. If we'd been forced like myself I believe in a couple of years' time, I will not be able to enjoy the pension fund that I'm in at the moment... we will have a problem, and we need to deal with that problem, and we need to raise the issue now and have a strategy, and I think it's the G M B's to take a leading role in looking at this. Thank you. [Dick:] Thank you Giles... [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is three seven one seconded? [speaker003:] Er, it's formally seconded, brother. [Dick:] [clapping] [Dennis:] Congress, president... Dennis, Southern region. Er, as Charlie just pointed out, it is of great concern and it's a time bomb that is definitely ticking away. Having been employed now for British Gas for the last twenty five years... er, I've got seventeen years of pensionable service, which has only just been negotiated through the G M B since nineteen eighty to nineteen ninety three... and now it is probably one of the better pensions, company pension schemes, in the country. Now, I'm fortunate, I've actually got seventeen years... come July when the M, M M C reports back on British Gas, might split it up into seven, thirteen, fifteen different companies. Where is my pension fund going then? I'm gonna need a pension when I reach the age of sixty, sixty five... I recommend that we support this motion and vigorously campaign for pensions for everybody on an equal status. I second. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three seven two, pension funds, to be moved by Lancashire region. [speaker003:] Terence, Lancashire region, moving motion three seven two. Congress... the motion is calling for changes in the law to protect workers' pension rights. It is clearly unacceptable that workers' pensions are open to such abuse by the employers. It is not satisfactory that workers' pension funds remain vulnerable to the predators. The law must be strengthened and operate on an open basis, rather than under a cloak of secrecy. Employers are using pension fund contribution holidays to boost profits... rather than improve benefits. Brothers and sisters, the Maxwell scandal was only the tip of the iceberg... inadequa of the iceberg in, in exposing the inadequac inadequacies of the current pension laws... excuse me [sniff]. John... remember the importance of winning the seven demands in the pension charter... the key one was pensions equal pay, and therefore members need majority control of the trustees that run the scheme. Let's stop the rip-off. I move. [clapping] [Dick:] Mr President, delegates, Graham, Lancashire region, seconding motion three seven two. I endorse the need for, and the urgency of, our union to spearhead the campaign... prevent the contributions of our members being used as a corporate slush fund. The reluctance of this government to introduce legislation only strengthens my belief that the scale of the Maxwellian type fraud is far greater than any of us ever imagined. For the prospect of a retirement pension for all those presently under fifty years of age is looking distinctly forlorn... we must protect the pension rights of all contributing members... we must insist that trustees are elected from the shop floor and not appointed by some faceless director who may not even reside in this country. We must never again allow, now that we're all too painfully aware of the consequences... any company to cheat and swindle any working man or woman... after a lifetime's toil... from the right to a happy and dignified and financially secure retirement. I second the motion. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much, colleague. Composite motion twenty seven, pensions fund law, Lancashire region to move and second. [Ken:] [fast] Duncan, Lancashire region, moving composite er twenty seven. Er... it's a bit difficult coming on the end of a debate cos everyone's nicked your speech by the time you get here. I mean I want to start with, with pensions pay and er, basically what's happening is that everyone's suffering pay cuts... er... and er th th what the government is doing is, first of all is attacking the State pension scheme... er, and it's allowing, er, employers to continue to rip-off occupational pension schemes... and er... since it's pay, and it's our pay, we wanna make sure we control it and I don't see why the employers should be allowed to continue to exploit... er, us both at one, both in terms of the pay we get now and the pay we get when we retire, whether it be at sixty... whether it be er, whenever we wish to er retire... and er, I think it's very important if the government is er committed to crime prevention, that it actually starts doing something about those for, those, those employers, and Maxwell has, has been er referred to already, he's just the tip of this very big iceberg... er, and er, up and down the country, people are suffering substantial thefts of pay... er employers are systematically organizing wages snatches, that's what this er pension fraud is all about, and it's about time that our government actually got round er and tackled this very important corporate crime issue that's actually going on at the moment... and er, I think that it's very important that we ensure that we're involved in er managing our own pension sch p pension funds, and therefore we should be pushing through demands of the er th the, the charter for pension fund democracy, and ensuring er that the government actually listens to what we're saying, and actually er comes up with answers why we cannot have the right to control our pay... cos I can I can't see an any reason that they come back and say why democracy, why they can't, why, why they won't allow us to have a greater say and control our own pension funds... and that's I think is a legitimate demand that we should be campaigning for, up and down the country. So, er, in terms of composite twenty seven, it's a very simple resolution, and it's basically saying we should be supporting the er demands of the er campaign for pension fund democracy and the charter, and that we should abandon the committee takes those on, those demands, and er, we should be campaigning for that very very important issue, which is affecting increasingly millions of people up and down this country, not just the p the er the Maxwell pensioners. Now we'll see what the government does in response to er all their friends who are going bankrupt in the Lloyds... er cos er that, in that scandal, on the one hand you've got the government trying to save its neck with its forty four MPs who've had their, had their hand in the till... at the same that they're doing that, they won't actually meet the just demands of people who've worked all their lives to actually have some sort of security in the future, and that's the ol er sort of double standards they're gonna try and er and use to get off the hook on that one... because they owe people in this country a decent, we should have the right to a decent pension and security, employment... and er with this, this campaign, we should be, we should be concentrating on as a major issue for this union in the forthcoming year. Thank you, I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaking in background] [Mary:] Kish, Lancashire region, seconding composite twenty seven. President, congress... we know that the Tory government, Tories' er agenda is to abolish State pension, thus more and more people will rel have to rely on private, and company pension. We need to have strict laws protecting our members'... pension funds. The media has highlighted Maxwell's abuse of pension funds to prop up his crumbling businesses... there's potentially hundreds of employers like Maxwell. Within our Oldham branch there have been two recent cases of such abuse... one being Hartleys where an employer took sixty thousand pounds out of the pension fund and put it into Hartleys, which at the time was in financial difficulties. Subsequently the company went into liquidation and left our pension holders with less than meagre pensions. So it's imperative that we can achieve to get trustees onto pension fund bo pension fund bodies... to stop... er employers misusing the pension fund... and finally we commend the G M B's submission to the good re good committee and hope that the G M B's submission becomes law in the not distant future. I [speaker003:] I second [clapping] [Dick:] Well as I indicated earlier, colleagues, I now call the general secretary to respond to the debate. [speaker005:] John, general secretary, replying on behalf of the C E C. Well we used to think whatever else was gonna change, at least the pensions were secure... but as this bate debate shows... not any more. Duncan said it, I think... there is now a two-pronged attack on our pensions. Unscrupulous employers... mean-minded government. Every week brings a new pension scandal. Kish has just given you one example... I'll give you one of the others. Haywards Food. The pension scheme has a massive surplus... so what does the management do? They take five million pounds out of the scheme as a refund... they give themselves a five year contribution holiday... and not one penny of that improvement goes to the members. So the Inland Revenue gets a bonus... the company gets a claw-back... and the members get nothing at all. And the G M B demands that when the good committee report... it makes such behaviour illegal. As motion twenty seven has said so clearly... it's the members' money. We support motion three seven two, on the basis that the majority of trustees should be representatives of the pension fund members... and any surplus should be spent not by the employer at the employer's own behest, but by agreement. After all... we don't allow employers to take money out of our bank accounts... and they have no right to take money out of our pension funds! [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker005:] Security of pensions is fundamental to a civilized society. We don't believe that pension rights should be undermined by privatization or by C C T. We agree with motion three seven one but add one qualification... the best way to provide protection for members threatened in this way is to force the government to honour its obligations under European law... and push for pensions to be included in the regulations. And then there's the second prong of the attack... the government offensive. Make no mistake about it... by all the processes of the government propaganda machine... by kite-flying and carefully placed links, the government is trying to soften us up to the idea of increasing the State pension age for women to sixty five. They prattle on about equality, when really what they mean is a down-grading of women's rights. We've had a lot about politics this morning, and if the Labour Party wants to mobilize working women... many of them who didn't vote Labour at the last election... here is a ready made campaign to take into the next election. Mary, Ed, John... they all said it. Composite twenty six is right. We should reject this government claptrap and campaign for a pension age of sixty for everyone... men and women, with proper protected rights for women. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker005:] Lastly a word about our members in the coal industry which Charlie mentioned. They have the worst of both worlds... a government who wants to attack their pension rights and an employer willing to do the government's bidding. Very strange story this. Heseltine had to find a subsidy to stop the coal revolt by Tory backbenchers... a short-term subsidy to the coal industry. That subsidy cost, remember this figure, five hundred million. The government then told the Coal Board to hold back nearly five hundred million that it was due to pay into the Coal Industry pension scheme. So it looks as if our coal members are being forced to fund the government subsidy... there can't be much nastier behaviour than to pay your own money to get the government off the hook of making your own members and your colleagues redundant. Of course, the government denies it all. In a letter to me, government minister Tim says... better quote this exactly because er, government ministers always tell the whole and complete truth, we know that, experience... the issue of the pension fund money, he says, is quite separate from the subsidy that the Coal Industry which will be financed by the Exchequer. Of course it is.... it just happens to be the same amount at exactly the same time... but how nice of him to explain and how silly of us to be taken in by this string of coincidences. But just to be on the safe side, we're taking the Coal Board to court. We don't yet know whether the Coal Board's action is illegal... but sure as hell it ought to be. So the advice from the C E E, C, C E C is... support composites twenty six and twenty seven... support motions three six nine and three seventy... support three seven one and three seven two with the qualifications given... support the campaign for pension fund democracy and let's work hard to clean up the pension scandal in Britain. Thank you very much. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] As the general secretary indicated, colleagues, all the motions are being accepted, so I now put them to the vote. All those in favour of composite motion twenty six... against... that's carried. Motion three six nine, all those in favour... against... that's carried. Motion three seventy, all those in favour... against... that's carried. Motion three seven one, all those in favour... against... that's carried. Motion three seven two, all those in favour... against... that's carried. Composite motion twenty seven, all those in favour... against... and that's carried. Thanks very much indeed colleagues. We now turn to the benefit systems and in this particular group, colleagues, we're gonna call the following motions... motion three eighty, motion three eight one, motion three eight two, motion three eight three and motion three eight four. It will be the same procedure... and then I'll ask for John er to a statement on behalf of the central executive council. I now call motion three eighty, privatization of S S P and S M P, Lancashire region to move. [John:] Willy, Lancashire region. President, congress... I ask this congress to do all in their power to campaign on behalf of all sick members and pregnant women regarding the breakdown in the control over sickness and maternity benefits... employers are depriving their employees of millions of pounds... since the privas privatization of the benefits. Accounts are no longer controlled so the system has broken down, so says the auditor general... Sir John. Sir John, who investigated whether payments were correct, found errors in one in three cases and two areas. There were also large underpayments... th these amounted to hundr four hundred and fifteen thousand pound in sickness benefits. The privatization which handed over administration of benefit payments to employers was the brainchild of Sir Norman... do I need to say more? In nineteen ninety one, Sir John stated that the average overpay for maternity benefit was two hundred and forty pound per person. I ask you... do you know anyone that has been overpaid? More like underpaid. So I ask this congress to watch closely this benefits agency, and let's make sure that the sick and maternity grants get paid correctly to what they are entitled to. I move. [Dick:] Thanks very much. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Will the seconder... seconder for three eighty... formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion three eight one, unemployment benefit, Lancashire region to move... Is it formally moved? [speaker003:] Formally moved. [Dick:] Formally seconded? [speaker003:] Formally seconded. [Dick:] Thanks very much. Motion three eight two, benefits, Northern region to move. [Bernie:] President, congress... Alan, Northern region, moving motion three eight two, benefits. Congress... fourteen years of Tory rule have taught our people many bitter lessons. They have witnessed jobs destroyed... services slashed... opportunities wasted. In no area, colleagues, is the despair caused by Tory mismanagement more abundantly clear than in the area of welfare benefits. As our economy has declined... as our recession has turned to a slump... increasingly it is the low-paid, the sick, the disabled and the unemployed who have been forced to pick up the tab for the Tory policy failure. Congress, as we all know, the latest Tory plans have once again hit the least well off. To cut entitlement to unemployment benefit... to tax invalidity benefit... and to mean test benefits... congress such a tax most vulnerable in our society must be opposed by the trade union movement. Motion three eight two calls upon the C E C to adopt a clear policy... to resist the attacks on the poor... and to launch a campaign to, to defend our people. I urge congress to support motion three eight two... and to demonstrate clearly our belief the least well off in our society should not be forced to pay the price of Tory failure... re to regenerate the nation's industry. Congress, I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Bill:] President, congress, Gerry, Northern region... seconding motion three eight two. Congress... as we all know, the failed economic policies of the government has pushed our nation to the very edge of bankruptcy. Our nation's annual deficit budget now stands at fifty million pounds. Against such a background, colleagues, our nation has only one choice... get rid of Major's mafia first! We need to invest... we need to encourage research and development... we need to provide quality training. In short, congress... we need to build out of recession... because only by building and by investment can we reduce unemployment and cut the nation's budget deficit. Faced with such a stark choice, however... the Tories, as we all know, have found another way... they plan, colleagues, to cut benefits... to reduce entitlement to unemployment benefits and to d tax invalidity. That congress is an insult... it's like making a victim of crime pay compensation to the muggers. Colleagues... the G M B should resist the tax on the poor... on the victims of Tory policy. I urge you, support motion three eight two. Mr President, I second. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three eight three, reduced T V licences... er Lancashire region to move. [Bernie:] Bernie, Lancashire region, moving motion three eight three. President, congress... well, third time lucky, eh? All my motions on the first day. Wherever you go nowadays, be it swimming, the pictures, fitness centres, or pop concerts... they all appreciate that the unemployed cannot afford to pay the full charge. They have all introduced a discount scheme to enable those unfortunate enough not to have a job... not to have a proper job... the same access to all these facilities as those in work. For the vast majority of these people, unemployment is a direct consequence of a government who only cares about those who have, and could not care less about those who have not. When you are unemployed, there is not much left after the job centre... and the twenty third job application form to occupy your time. [clears throat] Television is at least one escape and just like all the other trivial pastimes, should allow the unemployed to participate at a reduced rate. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Charlie:] Mr President... congress... Bill, Lancashire region. this is gonna be done from the heart, there's no, nothing being put there in front, because when you see what I've got and what my branch has achieved working with unemployed people... your branch earner... and that lady up there,, twenty seven years in this union... we started this football team, it was this dream that I had... and I come from Salford, which is not far from which is devastated with drugs... burnt out cars... people robbing each other, and of course,. Just across the river... we've got Manchester City. This gentleman behind me, and myself... I beg you pardon, did I say Manchester City? I thought meant Manchester United. This lad... behind me, Dick, and myself, we're both City fans. [Dick:] Don't tell everybody for God's sake [Charlie:] They're proud of it, never mind what you said before,Unite Uni City wouldn't do what? Give over! I've got a piece of artwork on the floor that I never thought I'd see. It's called the Tripyer Shield... and it's a local amateur thing... Eccles and District... and to win it it's like winning the F A Cup... and this G M B team that we started... we lost about three or four matches and we started losing the players, so when you don't lock the doors and you'd end up with about seven players and you'd think is it worth bothering? Course it's worth bothering because a lot of young men that was unemployed come down to the school where I'm the caretaker... and they said, we know that you're running short... is there any chance of getting in on the scene? So they got in on the scene and I seen young men that was walking the streets... that had nowt to do... put a football kit on with G M B written across the front... turn out and become super human beings, you never seen nowt like it, they were so pleased to associate with like something like that. I just want to end up by saying I know it's all about reduction for unemployed and the telephone... this union has worked very hard with the community in Salford... throughout the country... if you just give me a moment, Mr President, I'll get this unclear [Dick:] Is this, is this what's known as poetic licence, Bill? Did you say telephone or television then? [speaker003:] television. [Dick:] Oh, television, right... If that's real silver then I'll have that, [clapping] [Charlie:] It is real silver. Colleagues, this is the G M B at work in the Lancashire region... working with the unemployed. Thanks. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed, Bill. Motion three eight four, telephone assistance for the elderly... G M B Scotland to move. And if there is a seconder, if he or she could come down please. [Dennis:] Morning team, congress... Jackie, Scotland. It is to the shame of this Tory government that er er our senior citizens have to struggle to feed and clothe themselves... and to try to keep warm, and as inadequate pensions that they receive from this government... if you compare the way in the other European countries... what they get and what the British government gives to our old age pensioners, our senior citizens... they're more... they're worse off than actually second class citizens. But over and above this is a terrible fact that despite what they are already putting up with, they've got more... they've got the seventeen percent coming on... their. If they're a pound over, they've still got to pay the money. Why are they doing this? If they heard a knock at the door... or if they heard shouting and bawling in the street, but there's nothing they can do... what we're asking for here is... and I'm asking for support... is a phone to the people who cannot afford one... whereas if they hear something they can phone the police, or they can phone the support unit... because are two people staying together in this day and age where they cannot walk in the streets... they're attacked even in broad daylight going to get their pensions... never mind at night-time. What I'm asking for is... that we keep this approach up to fight this government to give er our senior citizens a better chance in this life, cos a lot of us here would not be here today if it wasn't for the senior citizens who brought us up. What we're asking for is... is a phone to the people who can't afford it... to the police stations. It would only cost the... the B T very small... and a telephone unit. Now... up in Glasgow, we've got a Strathclyde Labour authority who's actually putting schemes like this in. If it's alarm systems... if the alarm goes off they phone the person in the house. If the woman answers... [tape change] citizen in Britain... not just in certain areas, and I move for support. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder for three eight four?... Formally seconded? Thank you very much. I now call John to put the... Yep. [speaker003:] President, conference... Mal, Lancashire region. Er... I come up to draw the President's attention... erm to a problem we have within the delegation and that is that when er Dick called the mover of resolution three eight one in the name of the Lancashire region... John who was going to move the resolution was in fact sat in his seat within the delegation. Unfortunately, John does suffer from a hearing defect which er causes him loss of hearing... and apparently when he puts his hearing aid in... the speakers are causing some interference and a whistle within his ear. He's got the hearing aid out and unfortunately he didn't hear the President call motion three eight one, and in view of that I jumped in and formally moved it to erm save the motion falling... and I would ask you with your indulgence, if John could come along and move motion three eight one. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Well... I mean... the motion actually has been moved, I do take the point, I mean it's a fair point, but... erm... not sure where John's sat... sat at the back, yes... [speaker003:] [clapping]... [Dick:] where you going, John? Did [LAUGHTER] yeah []. Did somebody tell him I was speaking? [speaker003:] [clapping] [clapping] [Dick:] Okay, well look... we are we are a little ahead of time and it, we're certainly gonna complete the business but, so on this particular occasion [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] providing he doesn't wreck the bloody rostrum of course. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Right John. Mr President, congress... Is the loop system working or not? [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] I knew he was gonna ask me that! I knew he was gonna say that! Well... Three eight one you're on, John. Mr John told me last year he paid a lot of money for all this... and it's still not bloody working! [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] [clapping] [Ken:] But I'll get on to my resolution... which is unemployment benefit... and I'll say this... it's a bloody disgrace... and I mean it. And for unions to stand by and it's bloody unbelievable. You work forty years of your life... you're made redundant... all that time you paid insurance, tax... and after twelve months they've got the gall to take money you paid all your life off your unemployment and throw you on income. That's all I'm saying. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks John. The motion was formally seconded, colleagues, so I now call John to put the C E C position... John. [speaker005:] I was hoping, Dick, I'd get one with no light on! [clapping] John replying to these resolutions on behalf of the C E C. Before I kick off... I... to reply to them I put at the top of my scribbled notes three words... poverty... hardship and loneliness... and I think those three words typify and sum up what the majority of these resolutions are all about in this retarded society that we've lived in... er under... in the last fourteen years. If I can pick up with motion three eight zero... which refers to the privatation of sat statutory sick pay and statutory maternity pay... the C E C would like reference back on this for the very basis that... the point is they do still remain State benefits... and those who qualify them, for them, are legally entitled to do so. We ask for reference back so that a closer look can be taken at these problems in the administration of the benefits. When I move on to three eight one, three eight two... there's a lot of things been said about these benefits this morning which doesn't leave much left for me... but looking at the situation of the way this Tory government... has in the last thirteen years, certainly since nineteen eighty two... crucified the benefits paid genuinely to people... is in itself a crime upon society... and it reminds me of the... the words of the song... it's the rich that get the gravy... and it's the poor that get the blame... and nothing, but nothing has changed since those words were written many many years ago. Since nineteen eighty two... when they took away the related earnings from the unemployment benefit... they have introduced a further nine retrograde steps to the plight of the unemployed... and now the proposals... as has already been pointed out... they now have a look, because there's a fifty billion pound shortfall... at how they can best tackle the sick and make them pay, as well as people who are struggling to keep a roof over their head. We ask you to accept these two resolutions. On the reduced T V licence fees... well I think we all recognize that everybody who's unemployed isn't living in the lap of luxury... drinking ten double whiskies a day... hitting the racecourses with a top hat and tail on... the only pleasure, especially people who've got young children to bring up... is the television... and such is the price of the licence nowadays that in order to sustain that... other things in the family are going short. This again is an indictment on our society when people are being forced into that position... again the C E C asks you to accept this. On the standing charges regarding motion three eight four... for the rent-free telephones for our senior citizens... it is really an extension of three seventy... but the C E C asks... to... while you, while you accept this resolution... ask for a qualification on the motion. We say it is unclear why free phones should only be issued for incoming and outgoing calls and for nine nine nine calls. What we are saying... there are other emergencies and I get down to the word loneliness now... is there any reason why senior citizens shouldn't have the facility whereby they can make telephone calls if those, they so desire, to members of the family who in many instances they haven't seen for long periods of time? There are many many people... who live in houses on their own... can't get out... and again... it's an indictment on our society when you hear and read about the telephone profits that er that B T are making. I don't consider it is wrong in this day and age... that it is wrong to try to uplift and give to our retired people, every decent condition that is going in order to enable them to live their, the way they are entitled to do. On that basis, chair... and having got this off my chest... I'm gonna get me bucket and spade, and I'm gonna go to the beach this afternoon. Thank you. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] John, we've got business this afternoon. [clapping] Right, colleagues, er, motion three eighty, the C E C as John has indicated are seeking reference. Does the mover accept reference?... Congress agree? [speaker003:] [sounds of agreement] [Dick:] Thanks very much. Motion three, three eight one... C E C are recommending your acceptance, all those in favour... against... that's carried. Motion three eight two... C E C are recommending you to accept it, all those in favour... against... that's carried. And motion three eight four... C E C are recommending you to accept it, all those in favour... against... and that's carried. Colleagues, that in fact concludes the morning's business, we're about twelve minutes ahead of time. Just before we break... can I remind all women delegates, officers and guests... there will be the reception to be held at twelve thirty to two o'clock in the Lord Mayor's banqueting hall, in the Guildhall. The bad news is it's a cash bar... attendance by ticket only, please do your best to be there. Now colleagues, refreshments and the exhibition halls are stationed in the north and south reception areas... on the first floor of the Guildhall. Can I please urge you to visit the exhibition hall during the course of congress. Congress stands adjourned till two P M this afternoon. Thank you very much.

[speaker001:] We regret the use of the word genocide in the motion since it is quite out of proportion erm as well as being offensive to many. Motion three three eight calls for full implementation of the content and intention of the European directives. Congress, G M B has been to the forefront of the campaign to ensure that the laws of this country are brought into line with European legislation. It is ironic that a government that talks so loudly about law and order should subvert the rule of law by blandly disregarding its obligations under international treaties. This government is subversive in the true sense of that word. G M B has brought cases under the equal pay directive and the enquir acquired rights directive. We are lobbying hard both here and in Europe to ensure that directives are fully implemented but any revisions to existing directives do not weaken their impact and that new directives are as strong and effect effective as is possible. We have alerted the T U C and European Commission to the danger to workers in insolvent enterprises if the acquired rights directive is watered down. We have done more than any other union to help prepare the T U C's complaint to the European Commission that the abolition of the Wages Council is a breach of the U K's obligations under European law, and London region has recently won a test case on the application of the acquired rights directive to the opting out of schools, and potentially of sixth form colleges and hospitals. The C E C also, also wi wish to make a statement on motion thee five two. A widespread myth among personal, personnel managers is that they can change terms and conditions by simply giving notice of intent. In fact they have no contractual right to do so any more than we can give twelve weeks' notice to increase the pay of our members. Unless the contractor expr expressly says otherwise, employers need the consent of workers or their union to any change in terms and conditions. Our difficulty is that the contractual position is clearer than unfair dismissal law so employers can sometimes, though by no means always, achieve the same result by issuing notices of dismissal and offering new contracts of employment. However, the new Trade Union Act applying a European directive will require employers to consult with trade unions before issuing dismissal notices in such cases. Such consultation will have to be with a view to reaching agreement. A requirement which will strengthen our hand in erm holding employers to their contracts. They may not find it, they may not find it impossible to change contracts but it will become increasingly harder for them to do so. Congress, please accept motions three three eight, three fifty, three five two, three five three, and three six five, and accept the motion three two three with a qualification, thank you. [clapping] [speaker002:] Thanks very much indeed. Put the motions to the vote. Motion three two three, all those in favour?... Against?... That's carried. Motion three three eight, all those in favour?... Against?... That's carried. Motion three five O, all those in favour?... Against?... That's carried. Motion three five two, all those in favour?... Against?... That's carried. Motion three five three, all those in favour?... Against?... That's carried. Motion three six five, all those in favour?... Against?... That's carried. I think, colleagues that's as far as we can go today. Just one or two announcements. We've had sixty nine speakers in total today, fifty two men, seventeen women. The important point is there's been fifty eight regional speakers and eleven C E C and officers. Can I remind conference that there'll be a collection for the Burnsall strikers, that's being taken at the door, immediately you going out. Tonight should be pretty lively, political rally, we all know what the subject's gonna be about. Seven thirty to nine o'clock. John Edmonds, John Prescott, Claire Short, chaired by Tom, should be very interesting indeed colleagues, try and get there. There's gonna be yeah sorry that's here, [speaker001:] yeah, he left his notes [speaker002:] the Banqueting Hall at the Guildhall. Cambridge anti-apartheid sponsored walk [cough] John from the London region, he's trying to get sponsors, he'll be circulating er leaflets to that effect. Colleagues, don't forget, conference tomorrow morning doesn't start at ten o'clock, it's nine thirty. Please be on time, conference stands adjourned till nine thirty tomorrow morning. Have a good night, thank you.

[speaker001:] Good morning, hope you all enjo hope you all enjoyed the meeting last night and er just by way of a change today we've got er er resolutions and debates on the Labour Party... and from one socialist party to another can I extend the warmest congratulations of the G M B Labour Party Conference to our comrades in Spain who've been successful in winning a fourth general election. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] All against the odds, they've come through. Congratulations to Phil Philippe Gonzalez. Er colleagues can I start the today's business by extending a very warm welcome indeed to Councillor Dr. Alan, leader of the City of Portsmouth council. Councillor was born in Carlisle, and he's lived in Portsmouth since nineteen sixty six. Attended three universities, Durham, Indiana and Southampton. Indiana, by the way, is not in Britain. He is currently the principal lecturer in Phys in er in Fac Faculty of Environmental Studies at Portsmouth Polytechnic, and in nineteen seventy nine he was appointed a Justice of the Peace. Councillor 's political background started in nineteen sixty two when he joined the Labour Party. He's been a candidate on six occasions in Portsmouth municipal elections, and in nineteen eighty six was elected to the Havelock ward. From eighty six to eighty nine he was planning spokesperson for Portsmouth City Council and in nineteen eighty nine he was a candidate for the Euro election fo for and East Hants, coming second with fifty one thousand votes. In nineteen ninety, Councillor was re-elected for the Havelock ward, and in nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one he became leader of the opposition for Portsmouth City Council. Colleagues would you extend a very warm welcome to Alan. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Alan:] Erm, Chair, delegates thank you for the welcome and thank you for the invitation to speak to you. I think I've got five minutes which is probably more than some of you delegates have got so I'll keep it fairly short and sweet. I'm, we're very proud that the G M B has come to Portsmouth at last er and er that your flag is flying in the Guildhall square. Last week we had the Co-op Congress, and the week before that we had the Basque flag flying from socialist Spain because of our new links with Bilbao the ferry service there. I asked my neighbour, er I'm not a member of the G M B unlike the deputy Lord Mayor who spoke to you yesterday [speaker002:] Give him a [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] er [] [murmuring from the floor] [speaker001:] You can collect your application form on the way out [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alan:] if, if, if I could, I would have been I assure you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alan:] Er, I'm a member of N A T F E, one of those funny educational unions. But erm, one of my neighbours works for A C A S and I asked him er, his opinion of the G M B, and he said good negotiators, hard negotiators, but very good at getting better conditions for their members and I think he, and certainly I knew before, that the G M B is one of the most progressive trade unions in this country and we're very pleased to have them in Portsmouth. Er, delegates, I think sometimes conferences are held in a bit of a vacuum, you know, here you are in, in the hall, in the Guildhall er outside in the City of Portsmouth so can I say just a few words about Portsmouth. It's a real place, in many ways, if you if you walk round the small terraced houses, certainly in the area that I represent in Southsea, it looks a bit like a northern city. Neat terraced houses, densely populated, it doesn't vote like a northern city unfortunately. Very dependent on defence, and I know some delegates here work in our local defence industries, or in the dockyard, always been attached to defence and vulnerable now because of defence cuts. We have a, an unemployment rate officially of twelve thousand, probably the real figure as you well know is up probably sixteen thousand in a city of less than two hundred thousand. We have some new industries, I B M for example, but I B M are shedding labour at a very fast rate, something like seven hundred people are going in the next year, so we have our problems in Portsmouth. Don't let anyone suggest that it's all flourishing on the south coast, not so. We have a Labour-led council, which I'm proud to be the leader. We have only fourteen Labour councillors out of thirty nine and you'll be wondering how we manage to lead the council. Well, rightly or wrongly we've come to arrangements with the Liberals, not because we like the Liberals, not because we wanted to, but we, we were fed up with be being in opposition to tell you the truth. Year after year, watching the Tories make a mess of it, so we we've done, we've come to this temporary arrangement, and it's worked I think. Most of the time, comrades as you well know, it's damage limitation. In local councils, in trade union movement it's damage limitation, it, it's stopping the worst of Tory legislation and policies, in particular C C Ts. I'm proud that in the last two years under my administration we have not had one compulsory redundancy, and it's not easy I can assure you. We've had to make a million pounds savings this last year. We've got our ferry port, very proud of our municipally owned ferry port, I hope some of you will use it, or if you haven't done so already. A huge success, the government have said next year we can only borrow one million pounds to invest. Nowhere near enough, they're trying to get us to sell it off by the back door and we will resist that. A lot of employment there, and important to the local economy and we've managed to take some important initiatives in terms of helping the pensioners in the city, crime prevention, and other issues, so we think we've done a reasonable job. At the moment we're also trying to move our football club er rather a difficult exercise, you can imagine. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alan:] Anyone from Leicester here? Where are the Midlands?... I think I'll erm pass on er issues relating to the Labour Party leadership and er Labour trade union links. I, I've got my views, I'm sure you've got yours, and I shall listen later in the morning to the debate, but I would finally say delegates, that I hope you enjoy your stay in Portsmouth, in particular Southsea where most of you are staying... if you have a chance go to the rose gardens, have a walk along the sea front there, there it's magnificent this time of year and a tribute to our staff in our direct works organization for their hard work. The heritage area also, I'm sure Jim said to us yesterday, is well worth a visit if you have the time, to see the Mary Rose and the Victory, and we have a very good selection of Indian restaurants, I recommend the Kashmir in [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alan:] Anyway, welcome to Portsmouth, we're delighted to have you here, and we hope you come again. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Colleagues, to mark the occasion, I'd like to present on your behalf er a copy of John 's Barrow Bright, and also a suitably inscribed tankard to Alan. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thanks very much Alan, before we move on to the agenda colleagues, er could I announce that the collection yesterday for the Burnstall strikers realized a magnificent sum of five hundred and forty-nine pounds. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] and could I extend a very warm welcome colleagues on your behalf to a representative of one of the German trade unions I G which our union is working very closely with in the chemical industry throughout Eur Europe. Reinhart [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] welcome. Right colleagues if you would turn to the General Secretary's report, on page, page one hundred and eighty, and we'll go through the pages from one eighty two to two six nine, one eighty, one eight one, one eight two, one eight three, one eight four, one eight five, one eight six, one eight seven, one eight eight, one eight nine, one nine O, one nine one, one nine two, one nine three, one nine four, one nine five, one nine six, one nine seven, one nine eight, one nine nine, two hundred, two O one, two O two, two O three, two O four, two O five, two O six, two O seven, two O eight, two O nine, two one O, two eleven, two twelve, two thirteen, two fourteen, two fifteen, two sixteen, two seventeen, two eighteen, two nineteen, two two O, two two one, two two two, two two three, two two four, two two five, two two six, two two seven, two two eight, two two nine, two three O, two three one, two three two, two three three, two three four, two three five, two three six, two three seven, two three eight, two three nine, two four O, two four one, two four two, two four three, two four four, two four five, two four six, somebody get me a drink! [clapping] Two four seven, two four eight, two four nine, two five O, two five one, two five two, two five three, two five four, two five five, two five six, two five seven, two five eight, two five nine, two six O, two six one, two six two, two six three, two six four, two six five, two six six, two six seven, two six eight, two six nine, applaud! Thank you very much [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Colleagues, I now call the Section Secretary's report, Donald, to ask to give his report. Donald.... [Donald:] Donald, National Secretary. President, delegates, the events of last October, and the coal crisis, dramatically showed at once the strength and the weakness of the trade union movement today. Our strengths are obvious, that of compassion, support and feeling for our people when in trouble. The higher feelings of human nature, of concern for another human being. The basic qualities that come from our socialist tradition. It was these strengths that brought thousands upon thousands of people flocking to the banners on that wonderful wet Sunday in Hyde Park. Many, not all, but many were trade unionists who instinctively sympathized with the plight of the miners. That sense of right and wrong, preventing those in power walking all over those weaker than themselves. A memorable and a proud day. But we also remember how that wasn't sustained, and the cynical political fix of the Tories a few months later, that for the moment has coped with the government's political crisis, and temporarily has bought a little time for a few pits. It's done nothing to tackle the short-term nature of the market in energy. It's done nothing to tackle the desperate need for a balanced energy policy that looks at the long-term needs of the country. That problem won't go away. The coal crisis exposed vividly the type of market in energy the Tories had introduced through electricity privatization. This is no natural market, it's a market that scandalously encourages the burning of scarce resources of natural gas, for the production of base load electricity. It's a market that despite our rich coal reserves, is fixed in such a way that it ensures that before the end of the century, will be a net importer of energy. How ridiculous, and all because a politically created market is rigged against coal. It's a market as well that's created a few monsters of its own. It's created companies that are more concerned with their future international profits as global energy companies, than in expanding their home base. It's created senior executives in water, gas and electricity, who have made a killing through massive pay rises, but they pall into insignificance, when you look at the scandal of the share allocations and what's been going on there. In the water companies alone, if you, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds have been made by one or two people, as directors or chief executives of these companies. Severn Trent which held the record for disconnections last year, the chief executive, Roderick sold one hundred and thirty seven thousand shares at four hundred and eighty eight P under a share options scheme, and that was after buying them the same day, for two hundred and sixty two P. It's one of the quirks of the system, one of the little perks of the job, that he has therefore been able to make erm a rather quick killing of three hundred and ten thousand five hundred and thirty five pounds. John who was in actual fact the chairman of the company when it was a public service, he in actual fact made a killing of a quarter of a million. Northumberland, Northumbria Water, the chief executive, David, netted one hundred and fifty nine thousand and the former manage managing director, Robert a hundred and eighty six thousand. All from little deals that pass away quite quietly unless we can bring it to the attention of the public. We know a bit more about their massive pay increases, but not so much is known about the beautiful profits, about the wonderful conditions that they've allocated to themselves. It's a scandal, and it's got to be stopped... It's these same senior directors of these same utility companies who are lecturing our members about the problems facing their industries. The problems facing their industries and the need for them to show restraint. It's our members who've the problems to face in these industries. The fragmentation of water and electricity industries, further privatization of water and electricity in Northern Ireland and water in Scotland, market testing in the National Rivers Authority, changes in British Gas with four reports to come from the Monopolies and Mergers Commission in July. The government review of the nuclear industry, brought forward to ninety three. Privatization in nuclear and atomic energy industries on the agenda. It's our members in these industries who've been given a hammering since privatization and who need as much support as possible to give them the confidence to face further difficult years ahead. Far from being lectured by those who're making millions out of privatization. We must take heart from our experience in Hyde Park, we must nurture that support and build up the confidence of our members. It will take time, I've detected, as I'm sure you have too delegates, a feeling of confidence in our debates so far at this conference, a confidence that hasn't been there recently. It's our job to transfer that confidence from the conference hall to the workplace. It won't be easy, but we must take the first steps now. Leading and promoting the debate on energy policy that the government wants to stifle, that presents us with just such an opportunity, if we don't begin to take the fight to the enemy the future is clear. More of the same, more privatization, more fragmentation, more job losses, and more demoralization with our membership. The debate on energy policy is a vital one, and one which the G M B as the only union with a sizable membership in all of the industries concerned, is well placed to lead. It will be a debate, an argument and a fight we must win. Not just for our members in the coal industry and their communities, not just for our members in the coal-fired power stations, not just for all of the rest of our membership whose industries depend on a secure supply of cheap energy, but for our children and the generations to come after us, whose very prosperity will depend heavily on our success in that campaign. The fight back begins now, I commend my report. [speaker002:] Here, here. [clapping] [speaker001:] Thanks very much indeed, Donald, page seventy six, seventy seven, seventy eight, [speaker002:] Yes... [speaker001:] okay colleague, come and wait at the front, alright. [Dave:] Er Dave, London region. Just a question for Donald and just er an observation on our negotiation pay conditions from last year, the V I S council and the minimum acceptable performance levels. Many of us in the industry feel that British Gas have broken the agreement by altering er the review dates, now put on a three monthly basis rather than a six monthly. Some of our members have lost their consolidated rate and it's now become a bit of a running sore on the pay negotiations from last year, it needs to be sorted out, if confidence is to remain in last year's pay, pay deal.... [Les:] President, congress, Les, Midlands and East Coast region. Very pleased to hear Donald, er, make comments on the rig rigged market er energy market. It's quite clear that Heseltine and co will not implement the committee's findings. In the East Midlands region, National Power applied to build a gas-fired power station, all the regional authorities rejected the planning application. They went ahead and applied to Hesel Heseltine, who agreed to let them build the power station. Building of this not only closes the thirty one pits but also threatens four further pits in the Notts area. Not only does it close four more pits but it threatens five power stations in the area. Five power stations with fifteen hundred jobs, mostly G M B members. Blatant disregard to the committee's reports and also public opinion. British Coal paid out less in ninety one ninety two, four hundred and ninety two million pound in wages alone. This has been taken out of the local economy in Notts. Thanks. [speaker001:] Seventy nine, eighty, and eighty one. Donald. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Donald:] Er, first of all on the comment from Dave in relation to British Gas and the minimum achieved performance level or M A P L er the initials that I've come to er know and love over the past few months, never having heard of them before. Erm, I couldn't agree more, er with er what Dave was saying, erm that er the whole operation of that bonus scheme needs to be thoroughly examined with British Gas. I have informally intimated to British Gas that we'll be taking it up with them, not as a mere procedural matter through the joint secretary's machinery, but as a negotiating matter, with the negotiating committee. There are a number of inconsistencies in that scheme, not least British Gas' delightful decision to interpret the er scheme in a way which they hadn't interpreted six months ago. I'll be delighted to hear from British Gas as to how they can actually turn round and change a national agreement without having any formal discussions with the trade union side at any time at all. So it's absolutely essential that we do go forward formally and take up all the issues in relation to the minimum achieved performance levels and the scheme arising from the consolidation of the effects of last year's pay settlement, but as er most of the delegates from British Gas will know, I've been er ensuring that we first of all get all of the reports in from the regional joint indu regional joint trade union secretaries to ensure that we have as much information for once as British Gas has, about what's going on within the company, and secondly we've had er full debates on the trade union side to ensure we were well aware of just exactly what our recollections were of what happened last year and to ensure we're going forward in a clear and a positive way. So I couldn't agree more, and that will be taken up in the fairly near future, following the information that I've been gathering in the various meetings that I've been having round the country on this. I had a most interesting meeting in Scotland with all of our lay delegates there, erm on Friday and some of you within British Gas will know that in Scotland they've even more problems with the M A P L than any of the other regions because they were operating a different system to start with in the first place. So we've major problems and they need to be taken up. You're quite right. Les on the rigged markets, and I think this go goes to the heart of the problem in relation to the difficulties that we have in relation to coal, the problems in relation to pits, and everything in relation to the whole campaign and what we need to campaign in relation to erm er energy policy and this is absolutely crucial not only for our members within the Energy and Utility Section but for our membership and for their families throughout er throughout the country. It's absolutely essential that there, we make the government recognize that the debate on energy policy is not going to go away. They want to stifle it well and truly. There was a problem during the er evidence to the various committees that were looking at the coal crisis and the problems in relation to coal, in that very often people were translating it into tonnage and the number of pits etcetera, whereas the argument needed to be that the rules of the game had been rigged in the first place at the privatization of electricity and the rules of the game need to be changed if we're gonna succeed. And that must be the way we go ahead. I give you this pledge on behalf of the [speaker002:] [clapping] [Donald:] membership within the Energy and Utilities Section, erm, who recently debated this issue at their conference, that we will pursue the question of er the policy in relation to energy policy. We will pursue it vigorously, and we will campaign to get changed the basic rules which ensure that a country which is rich in coal resources ensures that it makes the most of the use of these coal resources, and changes the rules automatically excluding coal from being used from sensible base burning for electricity laws. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Right, colleagues, we're now going to the Energy and Utilities debate and er I'd like to propose that we do it in the following fashion. We'll take composite fifteen, erm motion three O eight, motion three O nine, composite sixteen, and composite seventeen. Now, the C E C have got various different positions on, on all these motions, so I'll then call John to put the C E C position on those motions at the end of the debate. So composite fifteen, energy policy to be moved by Southern region, Midlands region to second and again colleagues if supporting speakers could come down the, the front I'd be very much obliged.... [Charlie:] Thank you Chair, Charlie, Southern region, moving composite fifteen, energy policy. Delegates, some years ago I attended an international energy conference in Geneva. At this conference one of the African delegates described energy as the lifeblood of the nation, but the problem that he had, coming from Africa, was that the country he lived in, they had no coal, they had no oil, they had no gas and they didn't have the technology for nuclear. Yet here in the U K we actually have every one of these. It is important that er we actually develop these for the use of the nation. We have coal which we're leaving now under the ground or we're stockpiling it. We have oil in the North Sea which we are just wasting, we have gas which we get from the North Sea which we don't quite know what to do with it. It used to be regarded as a premium fuel for domestic and commercial use, now we just send it up the chimneys of power stations. And we have the technology for nuclear power, yet again we don't know what to do with it, we haven't developed it, we've just left it and we're creating nuclear power stations and we still haven't even decided what to do with the waste. And we've got technology there that we could perhaps use and export but we just leave it alone. We also have technology on renewables, this country is one of the most advanced, technologically advanced in renewables in the generation of electricity yet we don't put money into investment and resources of it. What do we have? We have a policy called market forces. This leaves coal in the ground, it burns power in power stations to generate, to generate electricity from gas, waste of a premium fuel. No good, has anybody heard about this magic word conservation lately? Since we've privatized all the power generators and the British Gas nobody even talks about conservation any more. It's burn as much as you can, use as much as you can. Now I'd like to just turn to British Gas where I'm employed. British Gas since privatization, and I think rightly so, and understandably, has had a defence policy against this government, and that defence policy is to turn itself into a multi-national energy supplier. It's been quite successful at that, but British Gas within two years, will be no different to Shell, B P or Esso. British Gas is subject, as Donald said, to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission report. That is due out in July. They have a defence mechanism for that, and their preferred option at the moment is to divide British Gas into seven companies, and let one of those companies supply gas in the U K, and I think they're ready to abandon it. If they can't get sufficient profit out of supplying gas in the U K I think British Gas is on the verge of withdrawing from the gas market in the U K, and that a lot of jobs in this country and I think we ought to be aware of that and I think we ought to be campaigning to make sure that doesn't happen. For British Gas, its defence policy is its share price and its shareholders, not its workers, not gas supply in the U K. Who's gonna be responsible for safety once we allow the private market to dominate? We have a regulator that all he's interested in is in fact doing Michael Heseltine's work for him.... The previous nationalized energy companies, that was gas, it was electricity, it also covered the water companies as well, were good employers, not only good at employment they were good at their jobs. The they gave good employment, stability of employment, good personal pension schemes, good career progression schemes, they put a lot of money in research and development, security of supply was the key issue for the customer, they put a lot of money into conservation, energy development, and of course, one other thing that they did that this government doesn't like, they actually recognize trade unions, and had trade unions represent the members who work there. Well, none of these unfortunately equate with the free market. The free market is where it's all going. Yet in energy terms the U K is the best po placed country in the whole of Europe. It has oil, it has gas, it has coal. What it doesn't have is a proper energy policy. Now I think it's up to the G M B to push this debate out, and we should say energy is the lifeblood of the U K, not the lifeblood of the speculators in the City of London, or the Tory Party, it's the lifeblood of the people in this hall, and the people outside, and I think we should support a proper balanced energy policy for the U K. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Steve:] President, Congress, Steve, Midlands and East Coast, seconding composite motion fifteen, energy policy. Energy policy colleagues, in the U K, is non-existent. The philoscity philosophy doesn't exist within this Tory government that would allow an eler energy policy to be framed. I'll tell you what does exist though, piecemeal short-termism. Quick political fixes in the name of free market philosophy. Doesn't protect people's jobs, doesn't protect the consumer, short-termism that doesn't seek to safeguard our vital natural resources for future generations. Quick political fixes that have a complete disregard for the environment. The efficient use and planning in a coherent, coordinated and balanced way of all our energy resources is essential in the long-term, to safeguard in the long-term, the energy needs of our nation for ourselves and our children. We have the resources but we import coal. Columbian coal, mined by women and children, we have the resources, but we import electricity via an undersea cable from France. We have the resources, but we import gas, and I'm a gas lad as well, and I find that situation farcical. Colleagues, let's end this situation, let the G M B, as the motion states, be in the fore forefront of pursuing an equitable, balanced energy policy to serve this nation now and in the future. Congress, I second. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Motion three O eight, Scotland to move.... [Sammy:] Sammy, Scottish region. What the, President and colleagues... as well as presenting himself as a great European leader, a demand which is not seen as be particularly, although at the moment, John Major and his government have sought to present themselves as green. Well, if they're green, all I can say about us, that we must be cabbage-looking. One of the agreements which our government signed at Rio, was for the setting up of a sustainability plan for a British economy, yet ever since the end of that conference, these proposals have been getting successfully watered down and deleted. We need to demand that Major keeps his promise, Britain is already, our willingness to go lightly on transgressors in the pollution field, is becoming legendary. Does it have to take another oil disaster like the Braer tanker, before Britain acts? Already, we're miles behind with catching up with standards which are accepted elsewhere. The labour movement has a role to play here, we need to start building bridges with the ecological movement, Friends of the Earth, and others for a strategy for jobs, for the economy which will tackle unemployment. But not at the expense of the environment and the living conditions of this and future generations. I move [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] The seconder for three O eight... seconder for three O eight. Formally seconded, thanks very much, motion three O nine, G M B Scotland to move.... [Peter:] Chair, congress, Peter, G M B Scotland, water privatization. The issue of water and the ownership of water in Scotland is a very emotive issue. It's an issue which has totally united every aspect of the Scottish community. I don't have to preach or tell our colleagues in England and Wales the effects water privatization's had on them since nineteen eighty nine, they can see it for themselves every day. and workers made redundant since nineteen eighty nine, huge rises in water charges and the disconnection of water supplies to ordinary people and their families who cannot meet the new high charges for water. It's disgraceful, colleagues, in the later half of the twentieth century in John Major's Britain we have private companies disconnecting the water supply to people, a basic necessity of life itself. Ian Laing in his consultation paper, Investing for our future for Water and Trade Services in Scotland, set out eight options for consideration. The people of Scotland considered these eight options and duly replied with ninety percent of the rep replies including Tory councillors, and Tor Tor and some Tory, Tory-run councils, totally rejecting any form of water privatization in Scotland. But just show Mr Laing that he's not the only one that can Strathclyde water engaged Sir William, in, not exactly a name that friendly with labour councils or trade unionists, to undertake a brief external overview of its strat strategy procedure in capital expenditure programme at a meeting on the twenty third of March. The overview was focused within the documents securing the future, Strathclyde's regional council's er response to the consul date consultation document Investing for the Future. The findings indicated there was probably no major savings in efficiency to be made which would produce a commercial charge more than the present public authority cost. In addition, which previously act previously acted on behalf of private water companies in England and Wales said Strathclyde was providing an appropriate service, with an affordable price which was responsive to local needs. The fact that highly respected consultants verify our conclusions further strengthens an already watertight case against removing the water service from public control. Therefore, we should urge our union and the er sponsored MPs in Parliament to oppose any form of water privatization in Scotland whatsoever, and to campaign for a turn, a return to the water services in England and Wales under properly controlled public authority. I move. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] The seconder for three O nine.... Formally seconded? Thanks very much. Composite sixteen, Public Utilities, Lancashire region to move, Southern region to second.... [speaker002:] Samantha, Lancashire region. Congress, President, public utilities, the name says it all. Essential public utilities for every single member of the public. Things people need for a basic quality of life. Privatization, high prices, disconnections. People calling round from next door for a bucket of water, the elderly and sick dying of hypothermia, or unable to light the house after dark, that's what Sid, and all the others who bought shares in the various sell-offs have a share in. Closing pits, the dash for gas, that's what privatization results in, the quick buck, buddy can you spare a pound for the water meter, VAT on fuel, how many more will die? You lose your job, you're at home all day, you heat the house to stay warm, get cut off because you fall behind with the bill. You want to get connected, the meter is fixed, so it's stay warm, don't eat. That's Britain today. Radical change is needed. We have to end private monopolies. Democratize utilities, involving con consumers, trade unions and the government. Privatization has failed Britain. We need to place these utilities under the control of the public. Rationalization is the best way to ensure that nobody dies because they cannot afford to use the basic services. Nationalization of all the utilities at the earliest opportunity, that is the task of the next Labour government, a basic quality of life for all, that is the meaning of clause four, so tell Sid, no VAT on fuel. Congress, I move. [clapping] [speaker001:] President, congress, Denny, Southern region. I'm here to second this composite, number sixteen, as regards public ownership of utilities. I believe that nationalization has become a dirty word in this country over many a year. I think it's about time we actually put that word back into the dictionary and made it a good word to have. The government over the past year has mugged the people of this country by privatizing all the public utilities we have. They are now increasing all the charges across those utilities. They are about to re-mug yet again by breaking up British Gas and I'm sure they'll break up every other utility they can. They're after making money. They're not after looking after consumers or the workforce, this trade union should start considering how to go about re-nationalizing the public utility energy companies within this country. For number one, they could start considering doing away with the regulator, and having an elected body to do regulating over the utilities. Yes, it is gonna be a long-term project, yes, the money isn't there to actually just go out and re-nationalize them, but by regulation approved elected bodies also with trade union members on them elected bodies then I'm sure we can start looking after the public and not the financiers and the accountants. I second. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Composite seventeen, Lancashire region to move, London region to second.... [Alan:] President, congress, Dave, Lancashire region. I tried to write a speech last year and I made a right mess of it, so this year I'm gonna speak from the heart, because I might get a boo like the leader of the council here, I install water meters. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alan:] Erm, when I was a kid, I asked me dad what politics were about and he said, well Tories are for the rich and Labour's for the poor. The only thing the Tories can't tax is fresh air. Well, water meters proved that wrong, because what happens is, Billy is over there laughing at me, if you put a water meter in, to get that water back in the main what does it need? It needs to push all the air out of the water main. Where does that air go? Through the water meter. You weigh that all up, how much it's gonna cost over the years, you're paying for fresh air on water meters. Tories have done it again. On T V last week there was a programme, tuberculosis has come back into Britain, said it was the Asians bringing it back. It's not. People are frightened of using their taps, their baths, their toilets because of using water and paying for it. I pay through my wages, twenty P a week for something they call Water Aid. This sends money to the Third World. This money pays for villages and towns in Africa, Asia to have clean, portable water. They did an experiment, there was a, a tribe in Africa, I'm not being racist, they did, this tribe lived six mile from the nearest river. Every morning the full tribe got the pots, pans and went down to the river, washed, got the clean water, carried back and they lived well. Water Aid came in, don't do that, and installed a pipeline. They installed a six mile pipeline and put standpipes in the centre of the village. What happened? People started washing, using as a toilet clean water, they all got dysentery, malaria, diphtheria. They wiped out a village. Now that is what's gonna happen in this country. We have got good medical facilities, but as you just heard Samantha just saying, they're destroying that as well, the only people who wanted water meters, is when houses were on ratable value and they were paying two hundred thousand pound for a house at large rates [clears throat] and the water rates was the same house. So what they did, they said can we install a water meter, the water company said yes. There you go. Now they don't do that. Who just said they turn all the Leicester is it, they turn the water supplies off, Severn Trent sorry, Mr, Mr. They turn the water off, and then when they say do you want the water back on you can have a meter, but they don't tell you, you pay thirty five pound a quarter for the meter, and that's without a bit of water going through it. So right, you get the water meter in, you then start paying for the water, you get a bill between hundred and seventy to two hundred quid a year. And this is for a terraced houses that used pay thirty five to forty pound a year. Now as I say I install water meters because it's me job. I went into the water industry at seventeen years, and I've still not figured out how to do these new ones and make them go backwards I can do the other ones. [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [Alan:] But on a serious note, if we go along this line of the one thing, to me then, of getting what we need, we have gas, we have electric, the one thing we do need, nobody could survive without, is water, Congress I ask you to support this m this motion. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Donald:] President, er, Congress, David, London region, I speak in support of composite seventeen. Erm, just a word about the previous speaker, I'm also involved with water meters and if he wants to know how to, how to make them go backwards, if he can speak to me afterwards I don't have. [speaker002:] [clapping], [clapping] [Donald:] Domestic water metering should not be imposed because the likely effects will be increased and excessive charges. This will result in self-regulation of the use of water to the point where the health of the individual, the family and the public at large, will suffer. Availability of water and freedom of its use should not be governed by the size of one's wallet. I should also, erm, it should also be remembered that those with special health needs, may require to use more water. Why should they be financially penalized because they happen to be sick or disabled? The effect of metering will hit the poor and the disadvantaged. Perhaps the water companies, before embarking on a policy of compulsory metering, should put their own house in order first. I refer to the estimated twenty five percent of all water pumped that leaks away in broken mains. No amount of metering resulting in self-regulation by the sick and disabled [speaker002:] And the poor [Donald:] and the poor, will solve the problem of loss from worn out mains. I therefore urge you to support composite seventeen, to protect the life and welfare of all of us. I second the composite. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [speaker001:] Conference I now call the C E C speaker to put the C E C position on the various different motions. John by the way has recently been elected President of our Energy and Utilities section. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dave:] John, Midlands and East Coast region, speaking on behalf of the C E C. President, Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite fifteen, support composite sixteen, with a qualification, and also to support composite seventeen. In addition, we are asking that motion three zero eight be referred and that you support motion three zero nine. The Tories have failed miserably to develop a cohe coherent energy policy for the needs of Britain. Beyond short-term market forces this has backfired b badly upon them. The decision to close thirty one of our pits, was er, erm, I was gonna say a major error, I should maybe rephrase that to a Heseltine error. The President of the D T I chose to ignore what I thought was an excellent report from the special committee, which was headed by Dick. A fiver a ton subsidy Tarzan recommended, and we heard yesterday where he was getting the fiver a ton from, the miners' pension fund. Utterly disgraceful. The fiver a ton was never enough anyway. I can give you an example. At our first Energy and Utility Sectional Conference, we had the Chief ex Executive of National Power as a guest speaker. After the conference in conversation with the section secretary and myself, he stated that the fiver subsidy was a joke. National Power were buying coal from Australia for half the price of the subsidized figure. British Coal was charging forty one pound a ton to National Power. With the fiver subsidy got it to thirty six pound a ton. They can ship it, National Power can ship it half way across the world and get it for eighteen pound a ton. Totally immoral. The increased use of gas to produce elect electricity will result in faster exhaustion of our resources while the subsequent closure of the mines will deny us access to hundreds of years of our richest and greatest energy reserves. Britain needs a balanced energy policy, which ensures that our varied and rich reserves are utilized in the most efficient way. The qualification with respect to comp sixteen is that congress needs to be aware that a future Labour government will have to decide between many competing priorities. The Tories are also attacking our Health Service, our children's education, and are failing to invest in the training and research necessary to produce substantial economic recovery. A Labour government, with the trade unions with them, using a progressive agenda, will clearly have to prioritize the demands that will be made upon it. With regard to comp seventeen. Compulsory water met metering will impact most heavily on the poor, the sick and the elderly. Suggestions of water shortages are not acceptable. The U K is the wettest country in Europe and water companies should be forced to cut leakages from corrode corroded pipelines which allow up to twenty five percent loss from the water supply before it reaches the consumer. Metered water costs ten percent per year more than non-metered water. Where a household seeks to cut back on the use of water, it will be at the risk of hygiene, fewer baths, toilets left unflushed, and less washing of clothes and dishes. Ask the people across the water on the Isle of Wight what they think of metered water, a resounding thumbs, thumbs down I can assure you of that. The C E C is asking that motion three O eight be referred. While well argued, the motion if agreed, would threatened thousands of G G M B members' jobs in power generation. We believe that power stations should be fitted with clean coal technology and that energy taxes should be based upon emissions rather than the use of a particular fuel. To summarize colleagues, the C E C ask you to support composite fifteen, sixteen with a qualification outlined, and seventeen. We ask for three O eight to be referred or opposed if it is not and that you support motion three O nine as it's in line with current policy. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thanks John. Colleagues, I propose to take the vote, composite fifteen is being accepted, all those in favour?... Against?... That's carried. Reference is being sought on motion three O eight, does Scotland agree to reference? [speaker002:] Agreed [speaker001:] Conference accept that? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Thanks very much indeed. Three O nine has been accepted, all those in favour?... Against? That's carried. Composite motion sixteen, has been accepted, all those in favour?... Against? That's carried. Composite seventeen, has been accepted, all those in favour?... Against? That's carried. Thank you very much colleagues. Erm, could I, probably timely colleagues, could I advise you that you can replenish your water jugs at the entrance on my right.... Colleagues it's now my pleasure to call upon the deputy General Secretary, Tom to move his section of the report and to address conference. Tom. [Les:] Tom moving the deputy General Secretary's report. Colleagues, er since we meet in Portsmouth, let me begin by pinning my colours firmly to the mast and acknowledging that the one issue that will dominate my comments here this morning, alluding to anything else in the time that's allocated to me, in moving my report I think would simply not reflect my activities on your behalf over the last twelve months. Five years ago, you nominated me for the National Executive of the Labour Party. I was elected. Twelve months ago you nominated as Treasurer of the Labour Party. I was elected. Armed with your support I look forward to my first year in that position, to sorting the Party's problems. Maybe introducing a touch of that pragmatic responsible approach to financial control which has been a feature of this Union's development over the years. I look forward to tackling the Party membership system, I wanted to make some of the sound admin system and modern communication methods which allow this Union to send each new member a new membership card, were introduced to Walworth Road. Above all, I look forward as the new Labour Party Treasurer to bringing the party membership fee down from the dizzy heights of eighteen pounds to the level which we in the trades unions know ordinary people can afford. [speaker002:] That's true [Les:] Well, we've made some progress in some areas, but not as much as I would've liked, although I intend to keep working at it. We could have been a lot more down the road to genuinely modernizing the Labour Party, making it a bit more in tune with our own members and those many thousands who should be members of the Labour Party. But of course, the modernizers have got their eye on a bit of the Party operation in need of their attention. Another cause waiting for a champion. So for the past year, I've sat on the Labour Party Trade Union Review Group, a working party set up in the heat of an election defeat, to defuse a potentially damaging row about the strange phenomenon in the party of Labour. The desirability of the link between the Labour Party and the trade union. Well, we didn't do too well did we? Even twelve months ago, the issue was the political flavour of the month, of real concern and anxiety only to a half, a handful of parliamentarians and a bar full of lobby correspondents. Now, it's the biggest issue in the movement. It's overshadowing the proceedings of this conference and other union conferences. It's keeping the Labour leader awake at nights, the column inches, full of knocking copy, and letting the Tories off the hook. And we have to ask the question. Why? We owe it to our members, if nothing else, to find the answer. Why, oh why in this most fertile season imaginable for a growth spurt in Labour popularity, have the green shoots of a Labour recovery been choked back yet again by our stupidity. Let's have this clearly understood, this is a self-induced, home-grown disaster. I've travelled up and down the country in the past few months, I've spoken to union branches, I've spoken to regional councils, regional committees, party meetings, general committees, regional conferences, and they all said the same. Indeed, it was said loud and clear at our political rally last night here in Portsmouth. Union Labour links. We don't want to know. It's not important. Get on with the real issues. An own goal yes, but even so, the review group was set up to smooth away a little local difficulty. That indeed is what it should have done. A private internal affair needed resolving, and I went on that review group, I was prepared to do all that I could to resolve it. Armed with a policy which you'd clearly stated, and which incidentally, coincides completely with the official and existing party itself, about the involvement of affiliates in the selection and reselection of members of Parliament. I went on the review group to sort the matter out... too many of us went onto it convinced that the matter was already sorted out. Their minds made up, their stance adopted, immovable objects, objects before discussion had even begun. O M O V is the answer, now what's the question. I've seen political naivety in my time, but never at such close quarters. Colleagues, there is an arrogance abroad in certain quarters of our movement that is a dangerous thing because it's [speaker002:] [clapping] [Les:] it's arrogance and inflexibility which has led us to where we are today, and that's on the brink of the crisis. Colleagues every other item on our agenda this week is yet another good reason why we can't afford a crisis in the labour movement. Let's start getting things in perspective. Let's take the pan off the boil. The plain truth is that after one year, an abundance of vitriol, a little mud slinging and some very bad publicity, we're right back where we started. In some ways, we're much further back from the starting line. Nevertheless, it's time to call a halt before it's too late. Those who can't see a role for the trade unions and the Labour Party need to be given time to see the error of their ways. And of course they will. The closer you get to an election, a general election campaign, the clearer things' ll become for them. The forward- facing electors without our campaign exp expertise, back-up and money will not dissolve any deeply held if only recently announced objections to union association, for we all know what's likely to happen at the party conference in October if the brakes are not applied now. There can only be one outcome, the trade unions will retain their involvement in the Labour Party, I've been saying this all along, as have others, during the course of the last year, the trouble is, nobody listens. Now, perhaps, people will be more inclined to do just that, and if they are, then what we may need is a trade union link review group mark two. A reconstituted group which, perhaps with some different faces, which can do what originally so graphically this group failed to do. That's reach a common understanding which reflects the realities of a relationship we enjoy at the present day so that we can all get on with the task of serving our members and forming a Labour government. I move my report. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thanks very much indeed Tom, and now I'll deal with various different sections of Tom's report, pages eighty two, eighty three, eighty four, eighty five, eighty six, eighty seven, eighty eight. Yes... [Charlie:] President, Congress, Peter Middle and East Coast. Tom eighty eight, bottom G M B Direct, it reads [reading] G M B Direct, it is now established as the best trade union journal. Published bi-monthly, becomes necessary reading in the labour movement []. Direct seven was sitting with Gillian Sheppard on the, the front. She's the one that's making us out of work. I wrote to this lot up here, and questioned it, and all of a sudden the ball starts bouncing, somebody starts supporting Fulham. We're in the premier league here, this union. We're not in fourth division. We can do without anybody but this movement in that document, and it's about time somebody starts listening. Tom, if you're in charge of that, let's get these delegates on them front pages, we can do without the Tories. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Eighty nine, ninety, and we now move from one O, sorry. [speaker002:] Good morning Congress, er back to page eighty eight, President, sorry er, couldn't get your eye. Er, Tom it's regarding erm, Direct. by the way representing South Western region. It's regarding Direct. My colleague who was just up here was talking about Gillian Sheppard who's on the cover of Direct. Being a representative of a national race committee, I'm often dismayed at the ne the lack of black people demonstrated or portrayed in Direct. Recently on the cover of Direct, was a young black person who was er, a depiction of somebody unemployed in Britain today. Unfortunately, the photograph could have been er, mistaken as a stereotypical photograph of somebody from Los Angeles, or any other part of the world where there is problems in inner city area. Please, Tom when er placing photographs in Direct, please try to make them a little more appropriate. Thank you. [clapping] [speaker001:] Now turn to page one O four, one O five, one O six and one O seven, and one O eight. Tom could you respond to those points please.... [Les:] First to er, Peter's point about er Gillian Sheppard, on the er, on the er Direct, I must say to you, I got a bit of a surprise when I saw Gillian Sheppard in such brazen er fashion on er on Direct, but you know, you've quickly got answers in this organization, and somebody said ah well, it was meant to be an obituary to her and they were a bit perceptive in that er respect. But that's not the reason, of course. The reason was that we were touching three million unemployed at that particular point in time, and it was felt that the best way of making an impact was to highlight this in the way in which it was done. And whether it did anything else, I can tell you Peter, you're not the only one that's made reference to Gillian Sheppard being on the cover of our journal. I've been inundated with calls. I'm still not sure whether it was right or wrong, but it certainly got the reaction that was necessary that people appreciated that she was there, she was the Minister for Employment, and indeed she was causing a hell of a lot of problems for G M B members. On the other point that was raised in respect of er Direct. I think our delegate will appreciate that er, it is a difficult issue, we do try as much as we possibly can to project all aspects of our membership in a fair fashion, and we go out of our way er, to be fair in respect of er certain er areas. I would simply conclude that while we're always open to any sort of criticism, we're always open to any kind of recommendation that might be made, erm to us in respect of er Direct. Direct, itself you know, it did win the T U C award. It wasn't anybody else's awar it was a T U C award and you can imagine the very issue that has been raised here today are the very aspects that are critically analyzed by the T U C in determined award, but I will take on board the points that have been mentioned. Thank you President. [speaker001:] Thanks very much Tom. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Right, colleagues, could I now advise Congress as to how we're gonna proceed from here. Er, first of all, we're gonna have a debate which I would term as politics, which will take in motion three nine seven, the Labour Party, motion three nine eight, Sponsored Members of Parliament, and then I go, gonna ask the deputy General Secretary, Tom to respond to that particular debate, then Party and Union links, there'll be the C E C statement. Labour Party and trade union links to be moved by the General Secretary and to be seconded by Pru from the Central Executive Council. I then take composite motion twenty nine, Labour Party trade union links and then motion three nine six, G M B Parliamentary panel. We'll then, I'll then invite a speaker from each region on the C E C statement and following on from that we'll then take the vote on the statement and comp twenty nine and motion three nine six. We'll then move on to motion three nine four, representation at Labour and T U C conferences, and motion three nine nine, Labour local authorities. Motion four O two, Labour Party subscription contributions, and then motion four O three, Labour Party member awards. I will ask Robert Thompson member of the C E C to respond and put the C E C's position, and we'll take the vote on those particular motions. Is that clear colleagues?... Thanks very much, I now call motion three nine seven, the Labour Party, to be moved by the Lancashire region. And again colleagues, it would assist, er, if movers and seconders and supporting speakers and speakers who're speaking on behalf of the regions, if they could come down to the front. David. [Alan:] Thank you. David one four sorry, one four eight Rochdale, Lancashire region.... [clears throat] Coming down here this week, I came a week early actually, I, I used a week's holiday as well, and er my lady friend says I think we'll buy a house in Goodwood. I said no, she said you won't leave the... union will you, I said no, she said alright we'll buy one at Haydock, still in the Lancashire region... and the reason why the union is my second love, obviously my first love is me family, is what it's done for me, but I also think what I've done for those people who represent me and yourselves in Parliament. Now when those people in Parliament are absent, by their silence, they may be there, you don't always see 'em, you then get a bit annoyed, but I tell you, you get bloody annoyed when they walk past you, which happened to me and to the regional delegates at Lancashire North West Labour Party, I won't name who they are, but they didn't even acknowledge us. This president behind me led a delegation of er fourteen of us, one of 'em got a gold badge yesterday, Eric, half of 'em sat down there, and we went canvassing in Rochdale, last election, just before ninth of April, that disaster we had. We didn't canvass in a nice little area, we canvassed on the side of the bloody moors. It was blowing a gale, am I right Dick? And he's there shouting right what do they vote, right okay, and we heard this row, and I look round, it's Eric, got the gold badge yesterday, and he's dragging somebody out their house [shouting] you voted Tory, you voted Tory []. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alan:] So we all sort of gathered round, was it Eric or Ernie, I think it was Eric, so we all gathered round, that was the, the zeal that we had, to make sure that we got a parliamentary candidate sponsored by the G M B, in Rochdale. That was down to us, they voted Liz, Liberal. But the energy was still there, we know full well, that there's other MPs there, I think it's thirty seven we've got and we, the only one that I know well is Gerald Kaufman. You can get hold of Gerald Kaufman just like that. Great, he's not even in my constituency. Mine's a teacher, I think, Jim. Talking to John Prescott this morning, I went to his speech last night, and John Prescott's never altered. Three years ago in Blackpool North West Labour Party, he said I stand up he said and people say I lose me temper. Now, I'll never believe that of John Prescott. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alan:] but I saw him on the television last week, breakfast T V, not last week, week before, just before I got into work, and this woman on the television asking this stupid question, she said why don't you put any opposition up in Parliament, and he hit the roof, but what the television did, they didn't switch off when he played bloody hell with 'em, excuse my French er President, but this is how it went, he couldn't give a damn about you bloody lot, he kept the television on, it just showed his frustration. Now to me, and John Prescott's not even in our union, shame, that man should be is doing what every other G M B member of Parliament should be doing. Now we see, you go into work, or as one delegate said before, you don't go to work because the places are boarded up, we've got management in North West Water, arrogant, it's unbelievable. Directors, they've signed one off sick, from British, er Vicker's shipyard, and give him sixty thousand pound a year directorship. How can you be retired sick and get one of them? But the arrogance of the people and yet when we're going to work, we've got to try and combat these people, and what help have you got? You've got your shop stewards, your activists, you, in my region, we've got some great officers, the one that I have, Pat is great to work with, but in the last two years, I've had to get hold of Pat more and more, myself. But do we get hold of M Ps? Not a bloody sign of them. And I'll tell you summat, I'm getting sick and tired of it. I have one pair of shoes at a time, and I wear them out pretty quick because I'm doing all the canvassing for our lot. They don't do it. How many members have they recruited to the G M B? Go on, name me one. Not one. How many members have they recruited to the Labour Party, there won't be so bloody many. But I'll tell you something, we haven't got to get sick, we've got to get people who support us. People who put our message across, I'm gonna finish before red light, here, people who're gonna do the job for us in Parliament, showing the G M B is the number one union, and we've got to make sure it's right. Support this motion, thank you Congress. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sammy:] John, Lancashire region, supporting motion three nine seven. Congress, time and time again, the majority of our sponsored MPs appear unable to sustain any sort of attack on this government's policies. In fact, when they raise an issue, it's either for a, a personal ego trip, or they're just paying lip service. I'm of the opinion that the reason they remain in opposition is that many of them have very little in common with the very people that they're supposed to represent. How do we ensure issues that directly affect the G M B members and there's millions about, now I say nowadays, are highlighted in their proper manner. We support these MPs time and time again, which we should be doing, but in return, we certainly want their support. Support the motion. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thank you John, motion three nine eight sponsored members of Parliament. Midland region to move. Yes Well, thanks very much, I hadn't realized it had gone, I don't know to be honest, I bet it's hiding behind there. We'll check it out [Peter:] Colleagues, President, Congress, Alan, Midlands and East Coast region. This co motion calls for a simple thing. It calls for this union's sponsored MPs not to pair with Tory M Ps. Yesterday, we had the debate on, on the abolition of Wage Councils. Indeed, this union had a campaign of sending postcards out to MPs asking them not to vote for the abolition of Wage Councils. Yet, when the vote was taken, it showed a considerable number of Labour MPs had not voted. That vote condemned over a million workers to poverty pay. Yesterday, in your address to Congress, President, you said that Labour MPs were paid to oppose this government and they, and that they should be accountable. And John mentioned the sleazy way that this Tory government goes about things. Every time a Labour MP pairs with a Tory, leaving that Tory MP free to go about his other business commitments, most of them highly paid, that MP abstained from taking part in opposing this government's policies. The C E C in opposing this motion, are also guilty of abstaining, of abstaining their responsibility to its low, to its lowest paid members, members it has pledged to fight for. I move. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Les:] President, Congress, Les, Midlands and East Coast region, seconding motion three nine eight. Peer in, when I saw this motion, I took immediate interest. I didn't realize it happened. We've all seen debates on T V, er, only an handful of MPs are present. Where are all the rest. Paired off. Such, such issues as Maastricht, VAT on fuel to name but two, when first debated, only a hand handful of MPs are present. Can this do the movement any good? No. I attended a public sector lobby at Westminster. This organized by the T U C, Mary was also there. We listened to Jack Straw among others. What an experience, talk about Tory wets. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Les:] I must give credit to one speaker though, an MP from Burnley. He really livened up the debate. Peter he's incidentally a G M B member. Burnley can be proud of him. After the lobby, I managed to speak to Jack Straw. Asked his opinion on pairing. His answer, I believe pairing is necessary. Short and not so sweet. I then spoke to Geoff, MP for Ashfield C L P, and until recently also an M E P, strongly in favour of pairing. His answer was he could not manage his commitments without pairing. Alan my own MP was next. He explained the Party line, in favour. He then explained his own position, which was quite different. Strongly against, but he could see the need for some front bench MPs to pair. New MPs tend not to pair and will attend most sittings, he said. Usually it is when, it is the old guard when apathy sets in. We in the trade union movement know about apathy. Ex-officio N E C Dennis Skinner was next. I asked Dennis his view and I was taken aback. He agreed pairing was a good idea. Could I have caught him at a bad moment, could he have mellowed, I couldn't believe it. Dennis Skinner saying pairing was a good idea. He then explained. In seventy one when I first came to Westminster, I was introduced to pairing. At my first important debate, I paired up with five of the Tory buggers and then I turned up. Pairing allows Tory MPs to sit on their boards of directors, manipulate your pension funds, to rally support for their party, and enhance their salaries. We should not be supporting this practice. Congress I second. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Colleagues, the C E C are recommending accepting with a qualification, three nine seven and are seeking withdrawal of three nine eight. I call Tom to respond. Tom.... [Les:] Thanks er, President, the C E C are accepting erm motion three nine seven with a, a qualification and erm oppose three nine eight. Now the movers of the motion from Lancashire quite rightly identified that the major issues that should be concerning Labour MPs and particularly sponsored MPs are issues like unemployment, the National Health Service, and local services. All of these are key political issues. Er, we call on Labour Mem Members of Parliament to give their support in each of these areas mentioned, and we do constantly have a dialogue and provide what is the union line in terms of erm these particular er issues. But I wouldn't wish anybody er to get the idea that we as a union wish to take away what really is the parliamentary privilege that members of parliament have got to have to look after their own constituencies in addition to being sponsored members of parliament. Now I'd hate to think that anybody got the impression that we actually gave them instructions. We're simply not able to do that. There might be occasions when we feel that we'd like MPs to take a particular line, in fact there are occasions when I'd like to see MPs take a particular line, but we can only ask them, we cannot in fact insist that they do take a particular line. It's a little bit unfair I think as well to generalize, on sponsored members of parliament because, you know as well as I do, on some of the issues that have been very very important to us, not the sort erm, er the sexy issues that head, hit the headlines, but issues that mean a lot to our members, our sponsored members generally do work very, very hard. But I can think areas er like on Europe, I don't there's been anybody who's been in terms of projecting the issue erm, er better than George Robertson has dode done in terms of the European er issue. On the er three nine eight, erm, the C E C are erm asking for withdrawal of these, this motion, they asked initially for withdrawal. That wasn't the case for very much the same reasons of course. We expect sponsored MPs to be present at important votes, and particularly on these occasions when our members are likely to be infect affected. The motion goes on to say that sponsored MPs should not pair with erm Conservatives. Now, I've heard what the move move movers have had to say, and you did, I don't need to tell conference that most of the business of running the country is actually done outside of the chamber itself, it's done in the various committees I mean, Dennis Skinner was mentioned there. Now Dennis will not sit on any of the committees, well we simply could not get our view and the representation that we want if we did not have erm membership of er particular er committees. So the pairing system does allow that sort of work to go on. In addition to that, John Prescott was mentioned, and John could not attend the meetings that he does around the country if he did not have the facility to be able to be away from Parliament during times when erm, there are votes that need to be taken. So I would simply suggest that, erm, on the two motions, er President, as I said at the outset, that we would support three nine seven, and in view of the fact that three nine eight is not withdrawn, the C E C would ask you to oppose three nine eight. Thanks. [speaker001:] Thanks very much Tom. propose to take the vote, colleagues, er as Tom has said the C E C are [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Alan:] Dave, Lancashire region, on three nine seven, Chair, when I got elected to the Labour Council in Rochdale, I took a whip that I had, did what the policy was of the Rochdale D L P. Surely, if a Member of Parliament takes a G M B sponsorship they should take the whip that we give and follow our rules and not go against us by going by constituent. Either go for the constituent, or be sponsored by G M B [speaker001:] David, David, it's not a point of order that. I mean you're exercising your right of reply, but for what particular purpose, I don't know because the C E C are accepting the motion. [Alan:] Ah, but with referral, with a qualification, Mr President. [speaker001:] But, nevertheless, it's being accepted. [clapping] Colleagues, I propose to take the vote on three nine seven. The C E C are accepting it, all those in favour?... Against... That's carried. Is the Midland region prepared to withdraw three nine eight? [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] Okay, propose to take the vote. The C E C are therefore opposing three nine eight. All those in favour of the motion?... Against?... That's lost.... Colleagues, Party, Trade Union Links, the C E C statement, Labour Party trade union links to be moved by the General Secretary, John. [speaker002:] [clapping]... Colleagues, John, General Secretary, speaking on behalf of the C E C and beginning with a rather unusual announcement. Er, our press office tell me that we have just had a call from ten Downing Street, who want a copy of this speech. This is not a joke [clapping] this is not a joke, absolutely true. And I hope that John Major and central office of the Conservative Party study it carefully since it is about party democracy and the Conservative party have a few lessons to learn in that direction. [clapping] But colleagues, I, I, I turn to the regrettable series of events that Tom has er already described because a virulent form of spring fever seems to have infected the Labour Party. Three million unemployed, homelessness and poverty on a scale not known for a generation. Health service falling apart at the seams, and this the moment when, instead of attacking this awful government, a number of Labour politicians have decided to attack us, the trade unions who founded the party, and loyally supported the party through thick and thin. And recently there's been quite a lot of thin. I don't know what the three million unemployed think of that sense of priorities, but I think it's appalling. Apparently some Labour politicians think we're an electoral liability. We heard that claim, I would call it a slur, at the last election. So whatever our reservations at the behest of the party, trade unionists kept in the background. We organized, we supported, we gave a great deal of work behind the candidates of the party as Dave has already mentioned, but we kept off the television, we kept off the radio, we kept out of the newspapers. The Scarlet Pimpernel would have been proud of us. There was of course a massive mistake in that general election campaign, but it wasn't of the trade union making. Quite the reverse. In spite of trade union protests, not just by representatives of this union, but by representatives of a number of unions, all within my hearing, the public heard little about our vote winning policies for full employment, or a minimum wage, or decent rights at work, the Party said next to nothing in high profile terms, about child care or maternity rights or the exploitation of part time workers. That was our agenda, it wasn't the Party publicity agenda. Instead, the Party prof professionals decided that the campaign should be fought on the basis of what they called themes. What this meant in practice was that we overplayed the Health Service, we underplayed almost everything else, and then got into an awful muddle over proportional representation. So were the trade unions to blame? Not on your life. I visited thirty eight constituencies during that campaign and I'm convinced of one thing. If we'd fought that election on the trade union agenda, we would have won a lot more votes than the campaign issues chosen by the professionals. [clapping] Hear, hear, that's true, yeah. Some critics of the trades unions have pretended that we oppose the modernization of the Party constitution. That charge is nonsense. Remember this booklet, some of the longer attending members of the G M B will do, we debated it in the conference of the old G M B five years ago. A radical programme for the Labour Party reform of the future. Far more radical than anything that's been discussed in the last few months. In that same year, on behalf of the union, I went to the rostrum at the Labour Party Conference, to move a resolution calling for the end of the block vote. I actually used the phrase this motion is the death- knell of the block vote, and the beginning of individual voting of trade union members within the part Party. I have to say that if some of those born again modernizers had supported us then, we could have settled these issues long ago, and got on with the business of winning elections, which I thought was what party politics was about. [clapping] But the core of this disagreement is about what we really mean by democracy. There are two groups of members in the Labour Party, something over two hundred thousand individual members, who pay an individual subscription, and the four million trade unionists, who pay through the political levy. Two groups, not one. And one group is an awful lot bigger than the other group. Some Labour politicians want the important decisions in the Party, selecting Labour candidates, or electing the leader, to be made only by the two hundred thousand individual members, without any voice for the four million trade union levy payers at all. They call that one member one vote. I repeat it to you with a sense of irony. Our executive has a different view of democracy. We believe that everyone who contributes, should have the right to participate in Labour Party democracy, [clapping] and that means colleagues, that means not just the two hundred thousand individual members, but also the four million trade union levy payers, who back the Party through those payments, strengthen Labour's organization, and give invaluable support at election time. We balloted our levy paying members last year in the election for the Party leader, you remember it well, over a hundred and forty thousand G M B members took part in that secret ballot. With constituency support, and the votes of other trade unionists, John Smith was elected Party leader by a larger number of contributing members than ever had the chance to vote for John Major or Paddy Ashdown. That's the contrast, and that should be a matter of pride. I wish Labour politicians would spend less time searching for points of disagreement in the Labour Party constitution, and more time pointing to the total absence of democracy in the Tory Party where there is no participation, no ballots, and they don't even have the confidence to tell Party members where the money comes from. [clapping] Just remember the G M B's reform programme. Ballots of trade union levy payers. A new system of policy making with wide ranging consultation. A total reform of the Party conference. That's our reform programme. If you want to label people modernizers, we got there in this union first. But we are not in favour of any policy that squeezes trade unionists out of the Party or of any policy that denies trade unionists a voice in Labour Party democracy. [clapping] Perhaps both Party leaders will be interested in that bit. [clapping] I end, I end colleagues, with a comradely warning. Financially, and organizationally, the Labour Party is in something of a mess. With a small individual membership, the Party badly needs the trade unions to provide that broad and representative support across classes and across occupations. Unless they're very very careful the supporters of one member, one vote so called will create a narrow and exclusive Party, limited to those lucky people who can stump up an eighteen pounds membership fee without thinking too hard, and in the Britain of nineteen ninety three there aren't quite as many of those as perhaps we would like to see. Our reports on the options that we support offer a different model for the party. Wider, larger,

[speaker001:] Colleagues just before we er commence with today's business, one or two announcements to make. The first one is that I, I've received a number of complaints about colleagues smoking in the, in conference.... [LAUGHTER] Are you taking that line because you're in favour or opposed to it []? Anyway, it's not a matter for us I know, that er depending on where you sit in conference you can have difficulty seeing the no smoking signs, but I've every confidence you're gonna take my word for this. Normally, normally, when it's switched on there's a sign up there. It's not switched on yet, so can somebody switch it on. And equally colleagues... there is also, it's true believe me, and normally there's another one up there, a no smoking sign so please be restrained, if only to help me to get through the week with my voice which is usually very bad! Er, the other thing is of course colleagues that the doors at the side are, are open for very good reasons and I mentioned yesterday from time to time that once we get er we get talking there's a that goes and colleagues at the side of Congress have a great deal of difficulty in hearing and listening to the debate. So please if you feel the need that you need to speak to somebody, please go out of the Conference. Discipline has been very good indeed so far. Thanks very much. Now just another couple of things colleagues. You'll remember yesterday that we had the collection for the Crawley Strikers and that the General Secretary, rather, I was gonna say foolishly then, generously er said that we would double whatever was collected. Of course after he made that statement he didn't realize that the London Region were gonna put a thousand pound in the bucket! [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [speaker001:] Yes but such is the life of mice and men. Anyway, the collection realized six hundred and thirteen pound, plus the thousand from London. That came to six hundred, sixteen hundred and thirteen and that will be doubled by the C E C. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Colleagues I've had a message from the strikers at Crawley and they've had to return. They want to place on record the generous support that they've had from you and for the, yes in a moment, the seconder of the emergency motion for er moving her support. They've been out a long time colleagues, seventeen weeks. I spoke to them yesterday afternoon after we broke. They appeared to me to be as committed as ever to winning that particular dispute and I'm sure you would wish to send your further best wishes to them colleagues. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] One other matter before I ask the General Secretary I think our colleague might want to say something after the General Secretary. Erm colleagues who attended the Blackpool Conference last year will recall that there was, that we had a visit from a young boy called who was the son of one of our officers and that er was suffering from I think I recall a very severe form of leukaemia. I know that some colleagues are aware of this but sadly recently passed away and I must by the colleagues in the Midland and East Coast region er to thank everybody who put into the er the collection on behalf of the. Very sad colleagues, but thank you very much indeed for that. Can I now ask the General Secretary to say a few words. [John:] Well just colleagues about the Burnsall dispute erm er clearly and I'm just anticipating the views of Congress that since we adopted a particularly way of making up the er Dispute Fund, I think we should certainly adopt exactly the same practice in relation [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Mel:] The point of information President Mel Lancashire Region President, Conference. I see on the agenda this morning that an invitation has been extended for to come along and speak to us. Can the General Secretary give this Conference assurances that a speaker from Timex can come along and address this Conference before the end of closing. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [John:] Yes colleagues, what I will do is this, erm no one will be in this Congress for the last three days without knowing the strong feelings on the Timex issue. I refer to it in my speech and many others have referred to the terrible situation at Timex. If there is an approach for the Timex workers to come through the proper channels, I will recommend on behalf of the Executive for the Standing Orders Committee that we hear a Timex worker before the end of the Conference. If the Timex worker wants to regard that as a right of reply to Neil 's speech, so be it. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Right colleagues, er on with the business. Can I announce that the C E C has informed me that motion eighty four Lancashire Region due for debate on Wednesday afternoon has been withdrawn. Motion eighty four has been withdrawn. I'll now turn colleagues to the Section Secretary's Report Mick Apex Partnership, pages twenty nine to thirty four. Mick. [speaker002:] Thank you President. Good Morning Congress. Mick National Office. I can just remember in the so-called heady days of the early nineteen eighties the then Prime Minister saying that you would make Britain a great trading and a great economic nation once again. But she also said it'd be a nation which did not need a manufacturing industry, nor an industrial base. The Britain of the nineteen nineties and beyond, according to her, would be based on a service sector. Thousands of jobs created, foreign investment would be forthcoming and what happened? The mines, the steelworks, the shipyards, all killed off and with them communities killed off. But all would be okay, according to Thatcher. New jobs would be created in the service sector. In retail, in finance in recreation and in leisure. Yes, many jobs were created. Part time jobs, low paid jobs, temporary contract jobs, non-unionized jobs. But all the gains that we had made out of labour movement, improvements in working time, improvements in health and safety, equality issues, legal rights all went out of the window, and what has happened to the vast majority of those service jobs? They've gone. The same way as the steel workers, the coal miners and the skilled crafts people. Gone and never to return unless we have a government elected which is committed to education, to training, to investment and to the future. It's obscene, in the nineteen nineties at a time of three million plus unemployed that we've still have a skill shortage in this country. We all know that Britain will only become a world class economy if we have a strong well-balanced manufacturing base, employing skilled, trained workforce, a workforce which has decent conditions of employment and has legal protection, but we do still have some members within the service sector and within the professional rank and what has happened in the last five or six years to those members? They've seen the introduction of new macho management techniques. They've seen the introduction of performance related pay, personal contracts, new working practices, pay freezes, pay cuts and always the fear of redundancy and all of this has been going on at a time when increasingly companies are withdrawing from national collective agreements, are establishing separate bargaining arrangements, restricting the activities of trade union officials and increasingly de-recognizing trade unions. Increasingly we see longstanding and well used recognition of procedure agreements torn up. We've seen new and harsher disciplinary procedures introduced, safety measures ignored and regrettably increases in the number of cases of racial and sexual harassment. We need to ensure that our white collar members have the help and the support and the advice available to them, but that help and that advice needs to be at the right time and at the right place. As more and more decisions are being taken by management at local level, we need to ensure our local representatives have the necessary skills to cope with the new macho management techniques. We need to ensure that our representatives are trained in human resource management, how to combat human resource management. We need to offer advice on performance- related pay, on health and safety issues, on environmental issues. It's been particularly bleak for many workers. Many white collar workers thought they were immune to the recession, but Congress there are thousands of white collar professional, technical workers out there who need a trade union. A professional trade union with the new knowledge, the skills and the services appropriate to their needs. That is the effective partnership. I commend my report. [clapping] [speaker001:] Twenty nine. Yes.... Anybody else who's coming up between twenty nine and thirty four, if you could come down to the rostrum colleagues. [speaker002:] Well that's me morning jog! Morning Conference, you all awake? Hope you enjoyed yourselves last night.... Conference, thank you Mick, Apex is going places, there's no doubt about that. I heard what er John had to say yesterday about the Apex membership must accept the conditions of the merger. Well we fully accept that John and the reason I get up here under Mick's report is under the item number two Apex Partnership National Conference. I tell you why I get up, I get up because I came back from that conference. It was a bit of a disaster in some respects, but in other respects it was a lively vibrant conference. Membership expressing real views, real concerns and John if you listen very carefully, it was also about wanting to see a delivery of the promises that were made about the merger. That's what it was about. [clapping] But there was a brave paper presented to Apex conference, a paper on sectionalization. That conference discussed it, discussed it in great detail. They put a lot of effort into it, but I tell you what, if I read Access, I would never have believed I was at the same conference. There wasn't a single word mentioned about that particular paper and the very fact that that conference rejected it, because they failed to consult properly with those who were involved in that section and they were very unhappy about the way Apex was being fragmented. I was very disappointed that there's no comment in here at all. Let's be honest, I didn't wanna see good sections, I wanna see strong sections, I wanna see vibrant sections, but I also want to see the truth in those documents when it comes back afterwards, so I'm disappointed on this issue and er I hope something in future will be done about to report the real things that we discussed at conference as well. Thank you Conference. [clapping] [Bill:] Bill London Region. Mick, we took a decision at erm Apex Conference two years ago erm whereby we decided that er anywhere where we had G M B members we would attempt to ensure that we have recognition with the private security firms used. Here we are at er Portsmouth G M B Congress, we've got, we're using that, well the Guildhall are using erm out front. I'd just been talking to the guard, twelve hour shifts, sixty hours a week and he can't even have any time off for tea breaks or meal breaks. Erm can we look into that? I do know that we've been trying to get er recognition for about fifteen years with that company but can we pursue that issue? Erm, on page thirty you talk about the erm Employer's Federation in the er minimum terms and conditions, well I'm only hoping that my own firm Securicor don't have any er input into that, because er as you know they unilaterally reduced all the terms and conditions Securicor guarding and cleaning recently... erm I'd like to know when we intend meeting with Securicor Cleaner I do know you've written to them on a number of occasions and their refusal to meet with us. I also know that you're attempting to get a Memorandum of Agreement and a Recognition Agreement with them. Erm, I'd like to know an update if possible on the Branch Secretary's erm restructuring. I know that we're meeting with the company next week, but whether or not anything's come forward on that and also erm in reference to the pensions section, erm, just correct your deliberate mistake and part timers can't enter the Securicor Pension Scheme. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Page thirty, thirty one, thirty two. [Ron:] Yes. Ron Securicor Yorkshire Region. Er page thirty two about er the Guarding Company. I mean I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea what it says we've resolved eighty percent of the outstanding grievances. I mean these people have had a pay freeze since November nineteen ninety and these grievances were as a result of a new pay structure last year that actually worsened the terms and conditions since nineteen ninety, but till then we've been making steady progress in getting better improvements and we've gone backwards. Securicor have joined the cowboys on the contract guarding and really I mean you must be getting sick of us getting up every time about security guards, but it's an important problem and you must know that a lot of you must work at places where you've got guards on the gate and we all should take a bit of interest in going to see these guards, find out that they're working for two pound or two pound forty an hour, they're working as many hours a week as they'll actually work with no overtime rate, no night rate, no benefits worth having and I mean really I wish you'd go to your companies and try and arrange site allowances, cos that's the only way we'll get any improvements, but when we talk about resolving grievances, we just took in Yorkshire region someone to a tribunal for constructive dismissal. Well the judgment's deserved on that but we're hoping we're gonna win it and we're hoping that that is a beneficial thing to the other guards, but I wouldn't put any money on it. The final thing is that a review of paying conditions will take place in May nineteen ninety three. We've actually had a Delegates Conference in April and we meet the company in July and I don't expect any sold the bread waiting for a massive increase in pay. Thanks Conference. [speaker001:] Thank you very much [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] thirty three and thirty four. Mick.... [Mick:] Thank you President. With response to Kevin, yes the National Committee Paper on the future structure and organization of the Apex Partnership was rejected by the Conference. There was a full and detailed report put by the Central Executive Committee on that point and, as you are well aware, there are motions for debate this morning in respect of er that particular point. The from London Region, yes Shorrocks is a cowboy outfit. We've been retrying to get recognition nationally and locally for fifteen years. Yeah, lousy pay, lousy hours, lousy conditions. Yet another example of why we need regulation and licensing within the industry. Unfortunately at long last we are making some progress along that line. Bill also makes the comment about Securicor. Yeah, you're dead right Bill. Securicor were at one time synonymous with quality for they have paid to be synonymous with quality. They tried to take the cowboys on at their own game. A world leader with the security industry is actually going down to the levels of the one man and a dog outfit. We're meeting in July on the pay and as Ron and Bill know we are seeking full restoration of the losses in respect of base rates, working time and premium payments. The then secretaries, yes negotiations are ongoing in respect of the company's proposals on restructuring. All the then secretaries have been kept fully involved in those negotiations. The Regional Secretaries have been advised of the position and regularly updated on the position. I'd made a commitment to the Branch Secretaries and to the Representatives that there will be a full Representatives Conference of which those proposals will be debated and discussed. I accept the point Bill about the error in respect of pensions. I think that covers the points President. Thank you. [speaker001:] Thanks very much Mick [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Colleagues I now propose to take motions one hundred and fifty eight Sectionalization, motion one hundred and sixty six the Apex Merger. Er and then we'll ask for Mick to respond on behalf of the C E C because the C E C are opposing one five eight and accepting one six six with the qualification. So first of all Mmotion one five eight South Western Region to move. [Denise:] ... Good morning Congress, President, visitors in the balcony. Denise representing Bristol and District Staff Branch and the South West Region. Could I firstly start by thanking those delegates who after Congress yesterday have expressed support about the two rule changes that we lost and to give some encouragement to new delegates here that even if you get up here and you lose it, there's some one hell of a lot of support out there on the floor. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Denise:] Thank you. Motion one five eight. I note that the C E C is opposing this, but I feel that maybe they've missed the points and the branch should actually take some responsibility for this because the wording could be better, we concede that point. The motion isn't actually asking for each individual member to be sent a questionnaire and to say where would you like to be because obviously that is totally ridiculous. People who are in one particular workplace and that workplace makes up the branch, then it's clear from the sort of jobs that they do which section they should be in. But if you're in a general branch such as I am, which is made up from people of all sorts of industries that have come together because none of us are large enough to have a branch within our own industry on our own, then which section do we go to? It's not always necessarily obvious. And who makes that decision where we should go? Delegates in this room from Apex may recognize me as someone that used to get up and say I was representing Apex Public Service and Management Branch. It might automatically be assumed that because that was the name of our branch, we should be in the public service section and that it why we've changed the name of the branch to Bristol and District Staff because we are an odds and sods branch. We didn't want there to be any confusion so that people would automatically put us all into public services, because the majority of our members shouldn't be in that section. Surely the best way for members needs to be attended to is for them to actually make the decisions on which section's relevant to them. We're not talking about individual members saying I wanna go here or I wanna go there, we're talking about groups of memberships within these sorts of branches. Surely the needs of the members should come before the administrative easiness of putting people into sections for the Union and as I've said who better to judge where they need to go and what their needs are than the members themselves. Congress has already discussed the fact that we're very concerned about the drop in membership. Providing a service to our members is absolutely paramount and we need to show them that we are considering their needs in which section we put them in. As I've already said, we agree that the wording could have been better. The C E C when they're talking about motions sometimes say that they accept them with the qualification and I'd like to say to Congress this morning will you accept a qualification from the branch moving this to say that we are talking about groups of members and their needs not individuals? The members' case must come first, otherwise everyone is gonna be put into the odds and sods section which is Apex, because it hasn't got a subject such as public services or energy and utilities. We want Apex as Kevin has already said to be a real section, not where everyone gets pushed because the name of their branch or there's nowhere else to put them. I urge you to support this motion. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] One five eight seconded. One five eight seconded. Formally seconded. Thank you very much. Motion one six six Apex Merger Liverpool Region. [speaker002:] Formally moved and you've formally seconded. Thank you very much. You did that twice Peter you can do that. I call Mick to put the C E C point of view.... [Mick:] Thank you President. Congress, the Central Executive asks you to, the Central Executive accepts motion one six six with a qualification. However the C E C is asking you to vote against motion one five eight. The qualification to motion one six six is that the C E C believe we should prepare a paper on relationship between Apex Partnership and all other sections of the Union, not just the public services section. In other words we should examine the whole subject, not just one important part of it. In respect of motion one five eight, the C E C is opposed because it is based upon a misunderstanding of the purposes of sectionalization. This Union faces strong competition in almost every sector in which it organizes. In order that we can respond, we must organize ourselves, industry and by sector. That means making what might have to be some very difficult decisions affecting longstanding practices and even loyalties that have developed over many years. We cannot leave it to the of individual members, that would produce chaos and could leave to destructive manoeuvring. The membership of each section is clearly defined by rule. The C E C and the Regional Committees have ample discretion to, to fine tune in certain areas. So we are urging you to vote against one five eight and accept one six six with the qualification outlined. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Denise:] I don't go anywhere without a fight Congress. You've heard my explanation of the fact that it was poorly worded and I think that is a great shame. I'll be talking later on in Congress about the fact that we could perhaps bring amendments and that would help the wording on things. Please think of our membership, think of what their needs are. Yes, we're in competition and we want to be able to say to our members don't go to that trade union because they will put you all in one lump, go to this one because we've got sections, because we look at our members with individual needs and please support this motion. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Colleagues I propose to take the vote one five eight as Mick's indication is being opposed by the C E C. All those in favour of one five eight... against... that's lost.... Motion one six six has been accepted. All those in favour... against... that's carried. Colleagues we're now going to the transport debate and there are five motions listed here. Motion three one four London Region to move. Composite eighteen G M B Scotland and London to second. Motion three one six Birmingham Region to move. Motion three one eight Midland Region to move. Motion three one nine Midland Region to move again. So colleagues if the moves of motion three one four er would come down and move their motion and with other colleagues if they would come down to the rostrum please it would save time.... [speaker002:] President, Congress, Dave Southend Branch London Region moving motion three one four British Rail Privatization. Congress, this country gave the world football, cricket and railways. We are now in the second division of world football and world cricket. The railways are now in division three and the government's plan is to take them into the non-league. [clapping] At the moment we have old and dirty trains which are expensive to use, with many rural towns without a railway at all through years and years of underfunding. So what is this crazy useless government's answer, extra funding? No. Privatizing... what is the first thing the government do to make B R more attractive to the private sector? Announces a huge redundancy programme that will lead erm which will result in a lot more unstaffed stations and a hell of a lot less maintenance. Now let's look at some facts that the lying Tories won't tell you. Our rail network is the lowest funded, the lowest staffed and has the lowest investment programme in Europe with the poorest quality service and the fastest declining level of safety, but B R has the highest fares. Since nineteen eighty three the government has reduced financial support by over two billion pound and reduced staff by seventy thousand, resulting in less maintenance and falling safety standards and with, as I said higher fares, but fewer services. Now I ask you, do you think that a privatized network that has to pay a divided to investors will lead to a better, safer, cleaner, cheaper railway? Of course not, in fact it will probably be the reverse with even higher fares, less if any off-peak services and maybe closures of unprofitable lines. The government plan to help private operators by robbing the Railworkers' Pension Fund of millions of pounds to subsidize their operations for passenger and freight on a scale that B R have never ever known. This has got to be immoral if not illegal! It is obvious the way the railway should move forward not privatization but a reversal of the underfunding and a move to a total commitment of higher financial support. If Richard Branson wants to run trains, let him build a network and, and compete against a properly funded British Rail. Congress, the vote in the House of Commons was lost unfortunately, but our sponsored MPs must ensure that the opposition in the House of Lords fights this ridiculous legislation as vigorously as possible, and we must support our brothers and sisters in B R with their fight. Congress I move. [clapping]... [speaker001:] Thank you. Dave London Region seconding the motion on rail privatization. Colleagues once again we see the Tories operating an example of what I call fag packet policies. Policies driven not by realism or efficiency, but based on dogs simply on dogma. They make them up as they go along. It's very difficult to find any support at all for rail privatization outside a handful of ministers. Even Tory MPs are against it and have to be whipped into line to get it through Parliament. The effect of privatization will have a wide range of effects. For the staff it will mean job losses as lines are cut and worse conditions as more and more work goes out to contract. Today we learn of nine hundred job losses at what used to be B R E L in the engineering section. For us the customers, it will mean higher fares and fewer services as unprofitable and social services are cut and this is only if we are left a train service at all. I come from Norfolk and with privatization many rural lines will be cut as the private sector being as unattractive and unprofitable. Transport organizations predict that only the three main lines to London will be left and only those with a peak service. Services which provide trains for both rural villages and holidaymakers will be cut. The lines under threat Ipswich to Yarmouth, Norwich Yarmouth, the North Norfolk Link, they may all go. Train spotting in East Anglia will take on a whole new meaning. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Cuts have already begun to... as the British Rail cow has fattened up. In King's Lynn where I live the freight line to the docks has now been closed. This has forced fifty thousand tons of coal traffic and ten thousand tons of toxic chemical traffic onto East Anglia's already congested roads. Chemicals that in the Common Market are not allowed to travel by road, they're forced on to rail. When the Minister of the Environment was contacted to help in putting pressure on B R, the Council were told why were they contacting him, it was not a matter that he was interested in. The Department of Transport, they were very little help, we contacted them and after initial propaganda visits, we were told that sixty thousand tons of traffic wasn't worth bothering about it wasn't large enough to warrant any help or subsidy. This is, this is the way it will go and will continue to go. The people in rural areas... train lines are, are an essential way to move around communities. For many people without that they will simply be isolated in their own small communities. Colleagues, I urge you to reject the dogma, look at the practical integrated policy and support the motion. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Composite eighteen Floods of Convenience G M B Scotland to move.... [John:] Mr Chairman, colleagues, David G M B Scotland Composite motion eighteen Floods of Convenience. Colleagues, the Parliament of the European Community and of the United Kingdom have seriously considered the consequences of the spillage of eighty five thousand tons of oil from oil tanker which ran aground on the coast of the Shetland Islands on the fifth of January nineteen ninety three and for a considerable time socialists of the European Parliament have been complaining incessantly for greater safety at sea. Although they have gained the support of the majority of MPs, but when the submission reached the Council of Ministers, they unfortunately find that their representations have been shelved. Quite recently, the European Parliament have been calling for oil ships which do not meet E E C standards to be expelled from community waters. Also ships carrying dangerous cargoes in sensitive waters, for example an area similar to where the went ashore or perhaps the Dover Straits where cargo collisions have been reduced by eighty percent since radar surveillance was introduced. Colleagues, great credibility should go to John Prescott, Shadow Transport Secretary, who has demanded that all foreign registered tankers should provide details of routes when they set off from port so that all operators can be dealt with. Not surprisingly however, John McGregor the Transport Secretary, although he did not oppose John Prescott's submissions, made it quite clear that this would be extremely expensive. Colleagues action of this nature should not be measured in terms of money. Only last week we saw a collision in the Channel at a real cost, eight seamen's lives. Chair, colleagues, I ask Conference to support composite motion eighteen. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Mel:] Don London Region seconding composite eighteen. President, Congress, brothers and sisters, the issue here is very, really very simple. We want the E E C to enforce laws at least along the lines imposed by the U S A after the Exxon Valdez disaster. These are not perfect they're only a starting point. They include a greater control of shipping and the use of double skin hulls for dangerous cargoes. There's a certain irony here in the fact that the world leader in free market philosophy should be the one to try and bring some regulation into this area, because that's the problem here, almost complete deregulation the use of convenient ships, low skilled, low paid er exploited often Third World workers, used and abused by ship owners the world over to increase their profit margins, with a subsequent lack of concern over both the environment and people's lives. As my comrade from Scotland says John Prescott has done a good job here, but I have to say it's not up against very much. After both the disaster and the sinking in the Channel last week, the government will Lord did you know he's the Shipping Minister? Hardly is! After every question on oil tankers, he talked about how they started to put passenger ferries safer. If ever there was an example which helped the case for the abolition of the House of Lords, then he is it, but that's another resolution for another day. We talked yesterday about a lot about Europe about the importance of workers' rights in Europe, but here we can expand upon this. Use the E C's political and financial muscle to bring about proper registered and regulated bulk carriers. Maybe our MEPs could help here. Support this motion, it's important that free marketeers aren't given licences to destroy our environment. [speaker002:] Aye seconds. [clapping] [speaker001:] Motion three one six Single European Market Birmingham Region to move.... [speaker009:] Congress, fellow delegates, President. Val Birmingham Region. Moving motion three one six Single European Market. It is with regret and concern that I find myself moving to this resolution since the members as members of the European Community want would like to have been possible to travel freely between members states. However, this is not the case as some of our partners are operating tours for coaching, coaches passing through their borders. This motion was triggered by a particular case which happened within the Birmingham region on the first of January nineteen ninety three which should have been a start of the European Market the people's Europe. Twenty five coaches with one thousand three hundred passengers returning from Christmas break in Austria were met with blunt piece of discrimination which broke communities laws. When entering Germany you are supposed to pay a toll which is only charged to non-German coach operators. A Warsaw based European holiday coach company were supposed to pay seven thousand four hundred and fifty pounds as a toll which in itself was an illegal act of discrimination. Now it is, now this matter has been taken up on behalf of the company, by the constitutary European Member of Parliament John Tomlinson and colleagues. I have here correspondence that has been exchanged between Mr. Tomlinson and the European Commission and German President. Anybody wants some copies I have a few copies here. However, it seems that as far as I can make out from the correspondence, the Commissionaires are split... in their opinion as to the legality of action of the German government. Colleagues, this is simply not acceptable and I call on Congress to support this resolution and instruct the E C to raise the matter in the proper government departments. I understand that C E C's accepting this motion and asking for remittance for further consultation. I agree. I move the motion. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Er, it's not quite correct that that's a new one accepting er and then referring. We're actually gonna be asking for reference, but we're gonna have a look at it and the C E C's people will make that clear. Okay? Er is that seconded three one six? Formally seconded. Thank you very much. Motion three one eight, full car licence new drivers Midland Region to move. [speaker010:] John Midlands and East Coast Region moving motion three one eight. Brothers and colleagues statistics show that the majority of car accidents are mainly within the first year of people passing their driving test. At present a person can take a few driving lessons and pass a driving test and he is then free to purchase any type of car they can afford, regardless of how powerful that car is. It doesn't matter that they have very little experience driving cars on our road. As soon as they pass their driving test, they can get out of the supervised test car and hop into a two or three litre car and off they go down the road to possibly death and destruction. Some of them are capable and sensible drivers, but as the records show there are those who not only put their own lives at risk, but that of others as well. At present there are people who choose to display a green learner plate for a period of time after they have passed their test, but this is only optional and may lead to other coloured learner plates being sold which then may not be taken seriously. I believe that we should support the principle of a universal sign which identifies the status of the driver as an important step forward to ensuring safety on our roads. This union has always been at the forefront of health and safety issues within the many industries that we represent. Health and safety also applies on our roads and bearing in mind, we may be acquiring a large transport section, we should be seen to take an interest in not only our members' safety, but the safety of others as well. In the interest of road safety colleagues, I ask that you support the motion. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Bill:] President, Conference, Ken Midlands and East Coast Region seconding motion three one eight. Conference, if you think back to all those times that you have sat at home watching the news after a day's work like I have, and listen carefully to what is being said, you may well have been horrified and saddened to hear the many stories appertaining to people who have had accidents or died due to the fact that the machine they have been driving has been too powerful. By obtaining the full car licence, you are able to buy a vehicle which is and can be a lethal weapon in the hands of wrong people, but this motion calls for constraints to be placed upon people when they obtain that full licence and at twelve hundred C C you can have enough power as well as enjoy the driving for the future. We should be looking to educate and train all people a lot more than we do at the moment where driving is concerned, so that from the very moment you pass your test you can feel confident, other people can feel confident and we can all have confidence on the road. Conference, to have a sign in the front and rear of your car may help all new drivers to understand that as a new driver you are entering a system that we are not aware of, speed, which is associated with many other items causes the very things that we work in our day-to-day lives under health and safety to stop. Accidents. Conference, please support I second. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Motion three one nine.... [Ron:] President, Congress and the Delegates guests. Owen, Midland and East Coast Region. Moving motion three one nine. Congress, it's against the law in this country to ride a bicycle without lights during the hours of darkness. So why are they not fitted to all new pedal cycles during manufacturing? The law has not been adhered to in the recent years, as it was in the past and every night when you're out you usually see more than one cyclist driving without lights, often on the pavement. This causes an hazard to the pedestrians. The modern cycle has enormous gears and other fitments for riding on all types of roads and usually no fitted lights. I stopped a cyclist recently, he weren't very big by the way [clapping] who was showing no lights. When I asked him why he said it would spoil the looks of his bicycle to have them fitted now. That's a cycle that cost him over two hundred pounds... and it would cost him more money to have lights fitted now as an extra. If lights were fitted as a standard requirement during manufacturing of pedal cyclists... they could be made to blend in with the colour scheme of the cycle. A major campaign was launched regarding the wearing of cycle helmets and there has been a great response, favourable response to this, cutting down enormously under a number of fatal accidents involving pedal cyclists. So it's now up to Congress to pressurize the manufacturing of cyclists, of cycles to fit rare and rear lights. Sorry, to, I'll say that again [clapping] to fit front and rear lights during production thus cutting down the number of accidents involving cyclists not showing lights during the hours of darkness even farther. In the meantime Congress, we call upon the police to enforce their powers on cycles, cyclists riding without lights during the hours of darkness. Now I urge you to support. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Mick:] [cough] I'll try not to be as shaky this morning. Whitecliffe, National Race Committee, South Western Region. Yesterday I handed you a message regarding er the request renewed to make a statement over the phrase Black Wednesday, a phrase that was coined by John Smith two days after the event. You have not made that statement. There are four members of the National Race Committee here today and I tell you now [speaker001:] Whitecliffe [Mick:] if you do not make the statement [speaker001:] Whitecliffe [Mick:] we will walk out of Conference [speaker001:] Whitecliffe [Mick:] Thank you aye [speaker001:] er, Whitecliffe, it's not a point of order because the point of order has no relevance to this particular debate [Mick:] [shouting] It has no relevance to this debate but it has [] [speaker001:] Whitecliffe [Mick:] plenty of relevance to the black membership of this union [speaker001:] Whitecliffe. Whitecliffe. The point of order has no relevance to this particular debate. I will make the statement at the appropriate time to Congress. We've got the statement here. Don't come back. the statement is here the statement will be made. Second the resolution list. [speaker002:] Midlands and East Coast Region. With the increase in public transport costs, road tax and insurance, more and more people are changing to the humble bike as an alternative form of transport. In nineteen seventy nine their sales topped the one and a half million mark. In nineteen ninety two this has risen to two point two million and the indications are the ninety three figures are going to be much higher. In fact told me this is an expanding market. As the favour, biking cannot be beaten, the cost of the average bike is between ninety nine pounds and one hundred and ninety nine pounds. If you compare that cost with the average cost of public transport, you will realize you can soon recoup your initial inlay outlay within six months and unlike cars there are no parking problems. On the debit side biking can be positively dangerous, that is why in nineteen eighty nine Congress passed a motion calling for the provision of cycleways. I move that resolution and on I've yet to see any evidence of them. Delegates I ride a motorbike, so I am familiar with the hazards faced by cyclists, I am also too well aware of the lack of road sense of some cyclists. I'm aware of most of the crazy things they do. They could give kamikaze pilots some lessons! So I tend to give them a wide berth wherever possible. However, much harder to anticipate is their sudden appearance in front of you from nowhere in the dark with lights on and it's not just kids, it's adults who should know better. It's no good depending as Owen said waiting for people to fit lights themselves, they won't because they don't think accidents can happen to them. One accident is one too many. Please support this resolution. [clapping] [speaker001:] Conference wish to put a point of view on several of these motions and I call Frank.... [Denise:] Frank responding for the C E C and motions three one four, three one six, three one eight, three one nine and composite eighteen. Congress, the C E C has asked me to accept motion three one four and composite eighteen to refer motions three one six and three one eight and to accept motion three one nine. On motion three one four British Rail Privatization. This government has got to be really be joking with its proposals for example the West Coast Line from north to south is estimated to require in the region of eight hundred million to cover track repairs and modernization as well as outdated rolling stock and signal replacements. All the speeds will have to be reduced for all rolling stock used on that line which will increase the cost for uses of the of that service. Because of privatization plans, British Rail hasn't got any rolling stock on order. If they won't order the stock, do they really expect a new franchisee to do it? I don't think they will. At least not when I'm passing on that cost to you the users... and as any cost increase will decrease the use of further track closures will follow. Another example is from region rail which is a totally independent system... but over the years the five local authorities have ploughed millions of pounds of investment into improving a system, the stations the track and the rolling stock... which in accordance with the Rail Bill will be put out of franchise next year... but will anyone have to buy it? No. The company that requires us to pay out the smallest subsidy will be given the franchise and allow to use or probably allow to decay a facility that's been established over the years while it takes its profit and distributes them to its shareholders. On composite eighteen what more needs to be said? This system is used to reduce wages, increase company profits and totally undermine training and health and safety procedures for crews and provide hazards for all the countries around whose coast they sail with the death and environmental problems that follow from accidents such as occurred in the past week. Lives should be, and are, more important than profits through exploitation. Motion three one six refers to tolls on passengers. It appears that German states are opposing a VAT-like tax on in an inconsistent way, aggravated, aggravated by a failure to warn of any increase in the tax in January nineteen ninety three. I would ask you to refer this motion so we can investigate the background more closely. In the view of the C E C motion three one eight has wide implications for a transport industry as a whole and alternate safety measures need to be examined. However, we have no difficulty with the idea that cycles should be fitted with lights. Should many cyclists ignore this law or are hurt as a result, it's always possible for lights to be removed if necessary. Colleagues the C E C is asking you to accept motion three one four and composite eighteen to refer motion three one six and three one eight and to accept motion three one nine. Thank you. [speaker001:] Thanks Frank. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Conference I propose to take the vote three one four is being accepted by the Executive. All those in favour... against. That's carried. Composite eighteen is being supported by the Executive all those in favour... against that's carried... motion three one six reference is being sought does Birmingham agree? Conference agree? Thanks very much. Motion three one eight reference is being sought does Midland agree? Thanks very much. Conference agree? Motion three one nine is being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried.... Colleagues we now turn to the special report, a new concept of trade unionism G M B cooperation with the T & G. I propose that the General Secretary should move this we'll have it formally seconded. We'll then take motion two five five T G W U. Motion two two eight Changing Employment Patterns moved and seconded I will then invite speakers from each of the regions on the Special Report. General Secretary to move. [John:] John General Secretary moving the special report and you may have noticed that the television cameras have gone. This is only about the possible er partnership of two of the largest unions in Britain. An organization which if it ever came to be formed will be representing nearly two million people. Pity our media showed a different sense of priorities. But colleagues, five years ago I looked forward to the merger between G M B and Apex and predicted by the year two thousand there would be only four major unions in Britain, call them the four super unions. In fact as you know the world has moved a good deal faster than any of us expected. Last year the A W U was formed and next month UNISON comes into existence. This debate is about how we will respond and in a very real sense, it's about the future of the whole trade union movement in Britain. In the mid eighties we decided that if we were going to be one of the super unions, we had to be amalgamation-friendly. We've been uniquely successful in the amalgamation stakes. Textiles workers, Greater London Staff Association, Apex, tailor and garment workers, they were all wooed by other unions but they all had the good sense to merge into the G M B. In the next few months we'll be joined by members of E F T A T. I am delighted that the Special E F T A T Conference voted in favour of the G M B. I welcome that decision and I pay tribute to the many colleagues who worked so hard to achieve that victory. We'll be seeing the E F T A T colleagues on Thursday, I hope you'll give them a very very warm welcome. That's the good news. The bad news is of course that our successful amalgamation policy has been made against the background of falling union membership. We've done better than most, but our membership levels have suffered as well. High unemployment, anti trade union laws, macho management, they've all had their damaging effect. We all know people who want trade union protection, but dare not join because they fear victimization. Because of political hostility trade union membership in Britain is being held at an artificially low level. If we have the same legal system even as continental Europe, trade union membership in Britain will be at least two million higher than it is today, but let's not delude ourselves. Political spite has done us enormous damage, but it's not the whole story. During the last ten years Britain has changed, very often for the worse, the nature of work has changed and we the trade union Movement have not changed fast enough to keep up with the pace. Think about it for a moment. What are the three pillars that support trade unionism in Britain? Recognition by employers, check-off agreements, reliable shop stewards and activists. Our problem is that one by one these three pillars are crumbling away. Many of you know John here today. He's a distinguished delegate to many many congresses and was London Region Secretary before Paul. [speaker002:] [clapping] [John:] The point of mentioning John is that he used to work at the massive Hoover plant in West London. It closed a few years ago, they couldn't knock it down because it was meant to be a prime example of nineteen thirties architecture. John always said that they spent more money restoring the facade than they ever spent on the thousands of workers who worked inside the plant, but then when it closed they couldn't knock it down, so they turned it into a superstore. That seems to me to be a fable from Thatcher's Britain. From manufacturing to retail, from workshop to shop work, from full time to part time. If you look around the towns and cities of Britain, you will find the same story, be it steel plants, those vast chemical plants, the big engineering works, they scarcely exist any more and if they still are there, they've shrunk to a tiny part of their earlier size. The old industrial landmarks are disappearing. Instead we have what I'll call a bits and pieces economy. Service industries, small workplaces, short-term employment, and more and more employers who don't know anything about trade unions and don't want to know. In workplace after workplace we find exploited workers, frightened workers, vulnerable workers, but little chance of recognition no hope of check-off and no one brave enough to come forward as a steward. Our problem, our central problem in the British trade union movement is that we have a trade union movement that operates very comfortably in one world, while over half the people of Britain work in an entirely different world, a world where trade unionism is scarcely ever mentioned and if it is mentioned, it's mentioned with a hint of fear. The challenge set out in the introduction to our report, the first page, it was very carefully written, is to build a new trade unionism on a model to fit this new world. A new concept of trade unionism that offers a vital and effective support system for everyone at work, everyone at work, not just the ones in the big workplaces, but everyone. A new concept that doesn't depend on recognition, doesn't depend of check-off and doesn't depend on representation by shop stewards in every workplace. Where we've got those conditions great, but we've also got to find a trade unionism for the rest and the growing majority of employees in Britain. Now of course we've got some experience in these things and we can put together some sort of picture of what that trade unionism for a new world might look like. The first thing you've go to do is you've got to provide services that mean something to everyone at work. Legal representation very important, maybe also pension schemes that can provide real pension protection. Quick-fire advice down the phone or face-to-face on work-related issues. Then of course you have to ensure that you can offer representation whenever it is needed, but most of all, we've somehow got to create the feeling of lifetime loyalty to the trade union movement and to a particular trade union. Not just a situation where you work in one place and when you leave you leave the union as well. With fast changing employment, there's no future in that. Somehow we've got to say to people we will provide this valuable service to you from your first job until your last breath, wherever you work. If we get recognition, we'll bargain for you, but if you don't, we'll protect and support you in any job you fill. Well, that's just an outline, but it's an outline to meet a need that no other union at the moment is even trying to meet, and what a need, and what a demand. Do you know that nearly nine hundred thousand people walked off the streets of Britain into Citizen Advice Bureaux last year to ask for their help on employment issues because they had no trade union? We could offer a service that no CAB can match. So how do we do it? And this is where I come to the point of cooperation and maybe more with other unions. We don't start from scratch, a plug for the T & G, they started down this track with their own link-up campaign and in the G M B we've pushed forward the frontiers of trade unionism into professional small businesses, legal offices and of course other commercial services. But how do we give a new impetus to that development? Well, we've got somehow to think our way out of the current difficulties. The best chance of success for working people no doubt would be if the two great general unions, the T G W U and the G M B, found a way of doing it together, found a way of creating the most powerful union that has ever existed in Britain. Calling our resources, uniting our activists, achieving by cooperation what we've never achieved by wasteful competition, but then of course that's a vision. And then the practicalities come in, and that's why your Executive is being very cautious in this report. Maybe the task is too ambitious. Maybe a hundred years of history and tradition will defeat us. Maybe the T & G doesn't want a partnership of equals, maybe it wants a takeover. That wouldn't do for us. The G M B won't be a kebab on anyone's skewer. [speaker002:] [clapping] [John:] So that's why we move carefully. In all honesty the difficulties are formidable, but I tell you this, for too many years trade unionism has been in the doldrums and with such a prize, however difficult to achieve, it would be a betrayal of our heritage and a betrayal of our members if we don't give it a good hard try. So the report is about the possibility of a grand enterprise. The industrial cooperation between our unions should continue of course. Our members wanted it and in many industries it makes sense, but the bigger task, the main event, is to see whether by a more formal relationship, a more formal partnership, we can build a union which is better than the T & G, better than the G M B and better suited for modern conditions than any trade union so far created in Britain. Now it's important to understand what the Executive is looking for. This is not an amalgamation for its own sake, it is not an amalgamation to manage a continuing and more comfortable decline, it's not bolting together two super unions into one mega union and just hoping for the best. What we should try to create is a flagship of the labour movement. Modern relevant and as successful in recruitment of the workforce of the nineties as we used to be in recruiting the workforce of the sixties and seventies. The flagship of the British labour movement, nothing less, that's the vision, that's what we want to try and create and that's what we want to come back to you and tell you about the prospects next year. That's our vision. The flagship of the labour movement and our task now if you pass this report is to find out whether that flagship can be built. Think about it carefully. I move. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] We have the report formally rescinded. Thank you very much indeed. I now call motion two five five T G W U London Region to move.... [speaker002:] President, Congress, Roy London Region moving motion two five five on the T & G. Colleagues, let's make it clear, this motion is not opposed to a merger of the T & G. What it seeks to do is put forward another idea which is to continue to work closely with the T & G on a wide range of jointly agreed. For we desperately need a common approach in such areas as the T U C, on the General Council, on the General Committee and Congress, and more importantly joint roles in the Labour Party. We need to jointly work together in public services if we are to combat the problems faced by the. All that work is positive and in the interests of all our members a slow and measured approach are coming together by general consent, building trust and commitment to a new big union. Colleagues, I believe the building of a trust is the most important fact in the whole of this debate. We shouldn't kid ourselves for in factories and workplaces around the country G M B and T & G are at each other 's throats. That trust will take some building, especially in the Liverpool area region, sorry. This motion calls upon the C E C to seek a structure which would keep both unions autonomous, keeping their structures, their conferences, their regional government etcetera. Let the two unions come together by building the links in the common ground. Colleagues, the C E C statement report told er considered trade unions and its conclusions recommended that preliminary discussions for Transport and General on the feasibility of a merger with a report back on next year's Congress. The danger with that we believe could be that we would set a date for the merger and take all the important issues and discussions, how many regions will it have will we have, the those regions and a hundred and one other problems raised by that merger into a tight timescale. This will only cause problems with consultation with the members and they're the most important, the bloody members, but it could lead to and a scramble for jobs. It could also tie up members of the C E C, the General Secretary, the Regional Secretary, the President, Officers and many others in internal wrangles new union just at the time when we need to look outward in the next two or three years. The danger is it could damage the very relations we tend, we need to build. A structure as I've said previously will give us the vital time and for the detailed discussions and consultations we need if we are to build the trust for the merger we all wish to see. Colleagues, please support the motion. [clapping] [speaker001:] Seconder colleagues for two five five... [speaker002:] Yes... London Region er Group Four Security, have you noticed we've lost another prisoner last night and he nicked me trousers! [clapping] [clapping] [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] We er we concur with the General Secretary's er when he said two years ago there will be four super unions by the year two thousand obviously that's gonna be a reality. Er, it's something that will be welcomed by the trade union movement, a new forward, a new beginning to join once again the fruits of our labour with partnership with other unions and the Labour Party which was what we all need, but it must be done with careful planning and the brains at the top of the union must be telling the of the union, the members on the shop floor, the right direction in which to walk. Clearly at the state of the talks with the T & G, we still have a long long way to go to reach this new goal and there's a strong rumour that there has been discussions between Sir John Edmunds and Lord Bill Morris [clapping] the name of the new union already and I think an apt title for the union at the moment would be Yugoslavia [clapping] because we're in ethnic groups, we are sections, we've got the boiler makers who are still claiming things they lost ten years ago when they merged. We've got Apex who've been brought in to bring in the new the white collar worker unions to form another concept of trade unionism. Lovely, now me, I'm an ex-M A T S A member, I'm in the security industry, at the moment I haven't got a section, so what am I a Bosnian, a Serbian or a Croatian I don't know. [clapping] So surely we got to tidy up our own act before we go further forward and as a trade union surely we are to fight unemployment. Now surely will this merger cause er unemployment amongst our staff? Will we need two general secretaries, two presidents, two vice presidents? And then again [clapping] look, Look [LAUGHTER] at Congress []. Obviously, if we're gonna be two big unions obviously Portsmouth is no longer going to fit the bill and I think that's a shame because several congresses I've been to and this is the finest weather I've ever enjoyed. [clapping] [clapping] [speaker001:] Can't argue with that. [speaker002:] And what a lovely place Portsmouth is I must say went to the gentlemen's on, the toilet at the seafront last night and as I left, I looked at the sign that said er, please adjust your dress before you leave. That's equality for you. [clapping] [clapping] And then what are we gonna have? Are we gonna have an annual congress, a bi-annual congress, a tri-annual congress? When are we gonna have rules revisions, there's a long way to go and as the, the er General Secretary said, be careful, because I've been to talks with, on, from the Regional Committee with the T & G yes we got on lovely with them, they're fine, they, they gave us a nice big er commemorative medal of the dockers' strike and it's got my granddad and my great granddad on it cos they was there in the other union mind you [clapping] while we've done all the striking and that they stood by, but nevertheless they're not bad lads anyway and as John said we must be careful that we are not the ones that are gonna be taken over, because I remember that old song of the fifties, never smile at a crocodile [clapping] [LAUGHTER] don't be taken in by his welcome grin, he's imagining how well you'll fit beneath his skin []. Brothers, sisters, President, we've still got a long way to go. General Secretary, you may be ready to dive in now, but we but [clapping] we want to wait till the time is right. I second. [clapping] [cough] [speaker001:] Goodness me, keep taking the tablets. [clapping] Motion two two eight Midland Region to move. [John:] Can't follow that. President, Congress Bob Midlands and East Coast Region moving motion two two eight. Changing employment patterns. Many of the points that I make in this speech have already been covered by John, but they are important and deserve to be repeated. The matters of employing people is changing and in the main those changes fly in the face of traditional G M B organization and make recruitment and retention of membership more difficult. Whatever the reasons for these changes, be they because of a hostile government, new technology or the European dimension, we must respond and change if we are to survive as a creditable organization. [cough] The employment situation described in the motion are no longer the exception, they are the rule and as such we must sharpen up our recruitment act. That is not to say we should adopt the hard sell or abandon our traditional value, but we must seriously examine how we can appeal to more desperate scattered membership. We must seriously examine how we can involve such membership in the decision making of the Union and carry them with us through change. We must seriously examine the relevance and method of delivery of our range of benefits. How can we appeal to part time workers and convince them that we can change things for the better, many of whom are home workers who are working in appalling conditions and often for less than fifty pence an hour? What can we do for members in small workplaces where even basic health and safety standards are exempt by law? How shall we respond to the loss of check-off as the proposed legislation means we surely will? How can we react to the loss of local authority standards of paying conditions and negotiation practices? How can we service and maintain our appeal to members opting to work in Europe and how can we recruit Europeans working here? Clearly this is a wide ranging motion designed to provoke thought and debate with no easy answers. I welcome the decision of the C E C to examine the issues involved in greater detail. I move. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Mel:] Liz Midlands and East Coast. The speaker from the Northern Region will get on very well with my three year old granddaughter, she don't like crocodiles either. However, in the interest of brevity, I will my remarks to points A and B. Since nineteen seventy nine there's been a major shift away from our industrial base towards service industries. Consequently part time work and casual work is now a significant feature of our economy. Effectively we've become a low-waged, low-skilled economy with virtually no protection for many of our fellow workers. At the same time, home working is on the increase, it's been estimated one million people do paid work at home, seventy three percent of which are women. They take on this work, not for pin money, but to provide for their family's basic needs. They are forced into accepting low paid jobs, exposed to health hazards with no job protection because of family responsibilities or affordable child care. You know delegates, when most people think about home working, they really think beyond the traditional jobs associated with this group of workers. I recently read the A B C of Homeworking, it was quite... never mind, I can't say the damn word, I could see very clearly, the potential for injury and exposure to other hazards is frightening. I fear the element is the growth of white collar working. It's my guess and it's an educated guess, within the next decade this growth will speed up partly because of new technology and the employer's needs to cut costs and maximize profits. You know delegates, this resolution is about recruitment and retention, but it's also about the ideals on which this movement of ours was founded. If as a union we are to meet the challenges that lie ahead, then please support this resolution. If not, we can stand here like and get our feet wet, because that's what's gonna happen. Please support. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thanks very much indeed Liz. Colleagues, I now come back to the special report and will take speakers from the regions. Liverpool Region. If colleagues from the back of Congress are intending to speak, if they could come forward. [speaker009:] Alan Liverpool Region. President, Congress, Liverpool Region support the document. We do need closer links, not only with the T & G but also with other unions, but let's not forget that other unions are organizing to build up their membership at the expense of the G M B. We need to make up our minds do we want an amalgamation or not. If we do, we must act quickly because our members in the Health Service, Local Authorities and all public services are in danger of being approached by the creation of UNISON. Our craft members are in danger of being approached by the A W E U [speaker001:] Alan, Alan I'm sorry to interrupt you, I do apologize. Colleagues [cough] this is a very important matter. I'm sure we're all agreed about that. So let's have the best of order for the speakers please. Right Alan [speaker009:] Thank you President. Our craft members are in danger of being poached by the A W E U. An amalgamation may not be some people's ideal, but it will take away a lot of the friction between the two unions. We will only have one set of policies and one set of rules. There would also be another benefit in amalgamation. We would get back the two and a half thousand members the T & G poached in Liverpool City Council. [clapping] One final point, the Liverpool Regional Council strongly recommended that amalgamation talks should start as soon as possible. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Scotland. [speaker010:] President, Colleagues, Geoff G M B Scotland. Supporting the C E C Report. Colleagues, G M B Scotland welcomes and congratulates the Central Executive's initiative in bringing forward the of this Congress the big important debate of this Congress between ourselves and the Transport and General Workers' Union at some time in the future. [cough] The paper quite rightly says and I quote [reading] the relationship between the T G W U and the G M B has all been marked by a blend of competition and co-operation []. It then goes on to detail a number of joint initiatives covering the the country and all the G M B regions. To be fair, the C E C have not tried to say that everything in the garden is rosy, they've also highlighted a number of problem areas that still exist. Indeed [cough] all look at the recent decision by the and Allied Trade Union to the members who have amalgamated themselves Transport and General Workers. It's only dirty tricks and underhanded tactics used by the T & G during the approach of the Workers' Union... so must realize Congress, to be more positive, one of the major benefits or more, the major benefit from future amalgamation with the T & G would be the free help of officials from both unions and and negotiations both national, regional and even at times individual company level where both unions help members. Colleagues, the time gained by having only one and recruitment and on negotiations rather at least two could be much better utilized than the certain, the day to day needs of membership. Colleagues, G M B Scotland subscribe to review that the benefits from the future amalgamation between the two great general unions within the United Kingdom would by far any possible deficits. Congress, G M B Scotland supports. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] London Region. [Bill:] Congress, President. Ed Westminster Trade Union Political Staffs Branch, London Region. Congress, I'm a Labour Councillor and whenever I sit on the Council I also ask Conservative members to declare their interest before they speak on an issue, so I better declare mine. When I first went to work, I went and joined the union, there wasn't one in the factory I was working in and so I went to the nearest er trade union office and joined. That union supported me as I recruited the whole of the workforce and er, I was then sacked after four weeks! [clapping] Some things don't change! The union then supported me further when I got another job and was a steward there, a branch secretary a district committee member and then on the regional committee and they also helped to put me through polytechnic and into the job that I did looking at mergers at the University of Warwick. That union was the Transport and General Workers' Union. That's my interest. Having looked at mergers then from both sides, I've seen the prejudices that go into any debate that takes place between any unions coming together. Obviously unions have their own traditions and their own ways of doing things in their own organizational structures. Clearly in any merger between the G M B and the T & G there are big hurdles to overcome. There are, and I know because I've seen both sets of prejudices, prejudices from both sides. The T & G traditionally have looked at the G M B as er look down at sometimes at the G M B. I've heard them described before as the sweepers up union and various other things. Derogatory terms. I came into the G M B and heard exactly the same kind of derogatory comments about the Transport and General Workers' Union. Comrades we must put to one side these kind of, this kind of fighting. We must I think look to go forward together. The union movement is under attack, we cannot afford ever to waste our resources on fighting each other we should look to always work together. However in doing so, it is important that we take time, because time allows people to come together in a sensible way, not to be forced together. We don't need to see er leaflets and so on urging us into merger before they're actually ready to take place from the membership itself. Go steadily forward, work towards the merger, but don't force it too quickly. I support the document [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Midland Region... [Ron:] President, Conference Alan Midland and East Coast Region, opposing the C E C document. Conference my region isn't against amalgamations with other unions. The G M B's got a long record of joining forces with others which has proved to be successful, but if we're gonna be honest, it's always been recognized that we would be the predominant union and yes Apex members we should have been honest with you at the time of merger, because it's quite clear you was gonna lose your identity to at least to some extent and we should have been honest about that. The only thing I would say delegates is that the we will also swallow the goldfish and there's a message in that for all of us. A merger with the Transport and General Workers' Union will be like any other previous arrangements. The problems that are gonna manifest themselves will any possible advantages. Consider for example what's gonna happen to the rulebook and to our structures. Let's think about the number of regions we have, the T & G have got seven, we've got ten. Perhaps we'll lose a region, or three. How regional councils and the C E C operate? What I do know we'll, we'll to get everyone in. How are we going to organize Congress? Perhaps President we could solve the problem by the T & G having theirs one year and us the next. I suppose that's that kind of bi-annual arrangement. What's going to happen to the Regional Committees, to officers and staff? These will be the issues that'll concentrate but more importantly, what's in the best interest of our members? Will their concerns be at the forefront of people's minds once the powerbroking bloodletting starts, and blood will be spilt you know. Ask the T & G officers what they think to the way they were when the redundancy notices were handed out so full time officers in the [speaker002:] [clapping] [Ron:] [shouting] in the audience, be careful cos you're going []... don't be under any illusion when your region, your job, or your elected position is under threat, it's human nature to protect your back and when this happens, it's the members who end up being the casualties. Conference, the document quite rightly identifies the common ground between our two unions. It points to the cooperation which already exists. So why do we need to formalize these arrangements, why rock the boat at time when the political climate is? You don't believe for a minute that this government will stand by while the two biggest general unions get together, no way, they'll attack us in any way they can and I warn ya they haven't run out of ideas yet. I'm all in favour of fighting the Tories to protect our members' interest, but we won't be doing much fighting because we'll be using all our efforts sorting out internal squabbles. We can also expect de-recognition by employers who are frightened to death by the T & G. It it's already happening. I tell you another year of feasibility studies will take us to the point of no return. Bill the and John started holding hands about a year ago and it's already resulted in their engagement and it's clear that they're planning their big day for the summer of next year! [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [Ron:] We should tell them to forget about having their banns read and advise them stay just good friends. [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [Ron:] Colleagues we have an opportunity today to vote this document down, to vote against it because the future of our union and the interests of our members is at risk. Let's take it and prevent a constructive

[Graham:] Right, next piece of advice.... er if you've got formulae, when you set them up, you should set them up so that you can copy them. Erm here I've got some formulae calculating production figures er we've got different quarters formulae found are somewhat similar er there's a [cough] so that I can copy one to any of the other adjacent cells outside will work I don't have to edit the formula or do anything to it soon as I copy it, it's alright for that cell. So it helps first of all when you're setting up the spreadsheet I suppose you can create one formula then copy it instead of having to edit each one individually, erm but later on you might accidentally or maybe deliberately in some cases overtype a cell and er... if you have to put it back again [sneeze] and what you probably do is copy it from the adjacent cell and then you have to study the formula to try and understand it, and then edit it if it wasn't the copyable formula and, er it may take a little time to edit it but it could take you a lot longer to understand it. At the time of creating the formula you're probably fairly clear about how it works, but several weeks or months later, [cough] you've forgotten... an awful lot. So er, it only takes you a second to er copy from an adjacent cell but it could take you a minute or two to get that formula working again if it's not copyable, erm, it would probably only takes you an extra few seconds er when you're actually building the formula to make it, copyable in the first place so it's well worth investing a few extra seconds up front to save you maybe a minute or so later on. Erm, something else that I may well do with this spreadsheet as well I can foresee is, insert an extra [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Graham:] product, we've just got one row for one product at the moment but in the future you might want to insert another row and er the product B and then all I would need to do is just copy the formula down and I know it would work cos I made it copyable down as well. I don't need to copy it down when initially build it but er I might just put a little bit of extra work in I can make so and can copy it down. So make all your formulae copyable left and right and up and down. How do you do that? Er in most cases, the vast majority of cases you erm need to use the absolutes. Are you familiar with using the dollars in the formulae? Are you familiar with er what this C dollar four means? And what does dollar G three mean? What does the dollar G three mean? [speaker002:] I thought it was just an absolute on one of those not all. [Graham:] So you put dollar in front of the column or the row or both? [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] Three options I suppose or neither, I suppose there's four options [LAUGHTER] er so what does the dollar G three mean? [speaker002:] If it sticks with G then it might go down to G four or G five. [Graham:] Yes, that's right so if you copy the formula then they erm the G will always stay as a G no matter where you copy it to, but if you copy the formula to another row you copy it from the cell below then the three becomes a four and er this one? Means the four never change if you copied the formula? The C can change if you copy it to another column and the C put it to the right the C changes to a D if you put a dollar in front of them both then neither can change. So for the majority of formulae that's all you need to do to make the formulae copyable, so when I got this extra product to insert just insert the rows, copy the formula down and that change is made very quickly indeed, I don't have to spend a lot of time understanding and editing the formulae.... Our little trap there there is important that you do all the inserts first. [cough] The natural tendency is probably to insert a row, copy it down, insert another row and copy it down, insert a row and copy it down, er, you need to do all your inserting first and then copy your formulae cos otherwise you end up with wrong... formulae. Erm, take this example here, er, I've got sales being calculated, say units, times the price, C four times C six, now I want to add a product B so I might, I might be here and think oh I'll insert a row here and copy the formula and go up to there and insert a row, and so on. But if I do that, well, I copy the C four, C six down have C five, C seven... and then when I go in and insert the extra rows then er, well that formula's not going to refer to those new [cough] rows that I insert it's still [cough] cell the right of price and the right of sales the wrong sales certainly. You must do all the inserts first and then copy down so that you end up with the right formula at the end of the day which is the C five, C eight. [blowing nose] Next topic is on memory. A lot of people are confused about memory as to what it is. They're not quite clear about, a bit vague about what it is. I get people calling me up saying erm they've got a memory call problem and er, I've deleted a number of files off the disk, and the problem didn't go away. Well the disk is quite a separate thing from the memory so let me er try and explain, what the... what the two are. I've got er a file named A B C dot dot U K One on a disk so it could be a hard disk or a floppy disk it doesn't matter and er when I retrieve the file, Lotus takes a copy of that file and places it, places it into what's known as the memory of the computer. Do you know what memory looks like? Have you seen memory, if you saw it would you recognize it? [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] Inside the computer if you open up the computer you see these little chips, silicon chips they're about a centimetre perhaps in length and you'll see a row of, nine or ten of them, that's physically what the memory is. You might see several rows, depends how much memory your machine's got in it. Erm that's where your file is... yo yo you're retrieving copies of them, removing copies that puts the copy into the memory. So when you're looking at a file on the screen, what you're looking at is the file as it is in the, in the memory of the computer, and if you change your spreadsheet, then all you're doing is changing what's in the memory. You're not changing anything that's on the computer at all. Sorry, not you changing anything that's on the disk. The only time you change what's on the disk, is when you save the file. Lotus then takes a copy of the file that's in the memory and overwrites the one that's on the disk, the only time you change what's on the disk. If you get a memory full error, it means you've run out of space here. If you get a disk full error message, it means that you've run out of space on your disk. So if you get a memory full error, deleting files off your disk, of course, is not going to make any space,. Memory is a bit of a misnomer erm, because if you switch the computer off and switch it back on again, the file won't be there any more, because it hasn't remembered it. The disk, however does remember keeping the file there, if you switch the computer off, your hard disks will keep the file there, floppy disks, of course, keep the files on the disk. So that's why you need to save frequently. There's all sorts of accidents not only having the computer switched off, you might accidentally mess the file up or erase it or whatever, er, you've still got the original copy on the disk so if you keep saving it every ten minutes or so, then you always lose more than ten minutes' work. How do you know how much memory you've got, on your P C?... [speaker002:] I know I've got enough memory [Graham:] Yes, so when you're getting low on memory the bottom of the screen the little red M E M appears, telling you you're very low, about to run out, er, so how can you check how much memory you have got when you're in One Two Three? Well if you do worksheet status, actually the screen is a little bit different from two point four, but it's looking similar like this. Er, you get two rows saying conventional memory and expanded memory, and two numbers. That's how much memory you had, to start with, three hundred and twenty thousand... bytes... and that's how much you've got left, two hundred and eight thousand bytes... i if you've got a spreadsheet in memory so it's using up some of the memory. Erm, what's a byte?... Or what can you put in a byte? How much can it hold? Sorry. How many bits?... So many. What's a bit then? You've heard it somewhere or other. Oh that's right, yes, well we'll come to that, yes er, well a byte is a bit not that that means a lot, er, what's a bit? It's a zero or a one, everything in computers is stored as zeros or ones. A bit is an abbreviation, of binary digits something about what it means, erm and eight of them together, makes a byte. A byte is enough space to store a single character, a letter. Now everything in computers is stored away as, er numbers and a certain set of numbers represent all the different characters. An A is a sixty five, and other numbers are sixty five. Er if I remember... erm... so erm, that gives you a indication of how much space you can provide, erm... we've also got some called expanded memory, expanded memory an I'll be explaining the difference between the two. Erm, oh you mentioned er, megabyte and things. What's er... K, you know the word K? What's K? K byte? Kilobyte? What is it? How many bytes does it... It's approximately a thousand.... It's not exactly is it? Does anyone know the precise number? [speaker002:] A thousand and twenty four. [Graham:] A thousand and twenty four, yes, and you want one K, equals a thousand and twenty four bytes. [clears throat] There's a strange number, one O two four. Not a strange number to a computer, though. Do you know what's special about one O two four?... It's er [speaker002:] the power of two [Graham:] Yes, it's the power of two. It's te it's two to the power of ten. Two times two time two times two. But to a computer it's a very round number. What's the next up from a K? A meg, which is an abbreviation of... megabytes, and i the size of it. What is it? Approximately, that is. Precisely, it's... [speaker002:] one O two four. [Graham:] one O two four times... one O two four. It's a bit. You know what the next level up is... after megabyte. It's usually referred to as neg... [speaker002:] Computer bytes [Graham:] Yes. Computer bytes. That's right. [cough] Which is what... one O two four. I don't suppose anyone knows the level up? Yes, that's right. How do you know that? [speaker002:] [clears throat] twenty five years ago. used them. [Graham:] Oh, right. Right, that's error bytes, yes. Er disks on your P Cs are known, normally measured in megabytes or your memory on your P C might be measured in megabytes. You're using up a lot more disk space than you are memory space. On a typical P C you might have a hundred megabyte disk. Do you know how big your disks are?... Do you know how to find out?... a memory. I don't know what machines you got. Four megabytes is typical these days for memories. They tend to have a lot more disk space than memory. Erm, to find out how much disk space you've got. How big your disk is. How much you've got left. You can type ch disk, C H K D S K er press enter. The disk will whizz around for a few seconds, and then you get the rows of statistics. disk is fifty six million bytes in size, and er you used most of them down to three million left available. Erm you might, can you do us. You might get a message like this telling you you've lost some of your clusters. Have you ever lost any of your clusters?... Er, if you've got DOS Five or Six, then er [cough] it doesn't say clusters, it says allocation units erm... it's bits of your disk that er been er reserved as unavailable by DOS. It's not being of any, of any er anything in there, that's of any use. So what you really need to do is to free it up. Make some free disk space available er yet if you haven't done this check the disk for er six months or more, you probably have quite a lot of disk space, I would imagine, that could be freed up. So what you do is, to type check disk space slash and then it asks you wh if it comes up with a question, which I expect it may well, if you've never done this before. Tells you about your chain and your clusters and things, and it says do you want to convert them into files. You say no. This fact sheet actually says yes here, but eh, if you say no, then er it will free up disk space. Could be a free megabytes of disk space, quite possibly.... Right... so. Let's now explain how a memory is used... within the spreadsheet. I've got this spreadsheet with the column matters across the top and the row numbers down the side. We've got this red grid over the top of the spreadsheet erm within a single column, covering er four rows you've got these little er blocks let's call them... erm... memory is used in, used in columns, so er, if you put an entry in any one of those four cells there, then er, within a, within a box, it will use sixteen bytes of memory. There's nothing else in this whole column, so that total column is using, using sixteen bytes. Erm... in this column B, you put an entry in this block, so that uses up sixteen bytes, you've also got an entry in this block and that uses sixteen bytes. How many entries in that block, but because it's between these other blocks that uses sixteen bytes as well. You've got nothing else in this column, so that whole column uses forty eight bytes.... That's quite significant. Now, let me go [cough] spreadsheet. Let's start off with all of them for your worksheet status, to see the memory. So, at the top there it says conventional memory, two seven four O four eight, of two seven four O four eight. We'll just ignore the expanded memory at the moment. Just look at the conventional memory er [cough] if I put an entry in a cell in the first block of this column. Then that should use sixteen bytes of your worksheet status. And that number on the left has gone by sixteen O three two sixteen there. Put an entry in the third block and er with the worksheet status again and the number has now gone down forty eight. So sixteen in the first block, sixteen for the third block and sixteen for the intervening block. Now if I go all the way to the very bottom of the spreadsheet, and put some er, an entry, somewhere near the margin there. Now its using sixteen bytes for that block, but also, sixteen bytes for all the intervening blocks, and there's an awful lot of intervening blocks between that and that in your worksheet status again. Er, you see the number on the left is two hundred and forty one thousand and two hundred and seventy four thousand so it's gone down by approximately thirty three thousand bytes. I have only got three cells with any entries. I've used up an awful lot of memory. And er, if I was to put entries all the way across the top of this spreadsheet like this, and then, all the way across the bottom of the spreadsheet, do you know how I got to the bottom so quickly, by the way? [speaker002:] End and a down [Graham:] End and a down. That's right. Erm and now very quickly again because, it's filling up all gaps between this bottom row and the top row of the spreadsheet. Go into worksheet status, and just eleven thousand bytes. I'm trying to put an entry in this cell, in I eight one nine two, but we can't because we were require thirty three thousand bytes and we only have eleven thousand bytes left. It only starts counting from the first row of an entry and stops at the last. So, if I've nothing in these first four cells, and something in that one, and something in that one and nothing below. So, for that whole column, it's still only using forty eight bytes. If I go back to the diagonal layer, quite often I get a question. Does the diagonal layer use up more memory. But as you can see now... it doesn't, because you're only using memory where you've got the entries. It stops counting there, and it stops there. Er, if you was to put everything on top of each other, for example, then erm, there's probably little gaps between one section and another, and those little gaps are using extra memory. So, that now I am releasing the amount of memory you could actually use. You can't use less than that... I suppose you could things going across, that reduces the amount of memory, not ruin the layout. Instead of deleting rows, you mess up all the others. Er, several entries will use up additional memory, as the minimum amount of memory they will get used erm, but certain entries don't use any extra memory, and in fact, in this column here I've put an entry, a whole number six, seven, eight, nine, ten etcetera, into each of these cells and er that [cough] column there, still only uses forty eight bytes of memory. In certain entries th tha which I'll come to shortly, do use extra memory, er, just say a few things about er, the one, three of these, three of the Windows products, which er, one of you is using, erm, it uses memory slightly differently, er, if I put an entry in row one, and a ro and an entry on row five one two, then yes, it er uses memory for that whole range there. But er, if I also put something of row fifteen thirty seven, then it doesn't use memory for all those rows between there and there. The way it works in three, is it only uses memory within these five hundred and twelve row boundaries, so any between one and five one two, five one three and one O two four, one O two five and one five three six and so on, it'll fill in the gaps within those ranges, but not outside of those ranges. So that spreadsheet is just sorting them all way across the bottom and all the way across the top. Er, we've not used very much memory at all. [cough] That's three of the Windows product. Erm, so other entries will use additional memory, if it's er, a whole number less than three two seven six eight, then no additional memory will be used. But if you put a number that's bigger than that, or it's got any decimals to it, then er, you'll use eight bytes for each number, additional eight bytes for each number. So if in A one to A four, you got the numbers one hundred thousand, that'll use sixteen bytes for the block, plus four times eight... forty eight a total for this cells. Erm, labels will use additional [cough] memory. Er, six bytes across the number of characters over the four characters. Er, [phone rings] er, the entry that uses the most memory is er, a formula. Even a very simple formula, a plus and a will use an additional thirty two bytes... and the longer the formula, more entries in the formula... The more, the more, the more you put in the formula, that more memory it takes, but even a very simple formula, uses up quite a lot of memory. So you'll tend to find on most of your spreadsheets, it's the formulae that use up most of the memory.... Now you're limited to about three hundred and three hundred three hundred and forty K of conventional memory, and you can't increase that, you can't,yo you can buy more memory, and instal it into the P C, but er, you can't increase your conventional memory available to your spreadsheet, much more than, let's say about three hundred and forty K approximately. Er, but what you can do is instal something called expanded memory... expanded memory, and you can have up to twelve megabytes, so that's er, [writing on board] twelve thousand K. This is not to scale, this is going to be much bigger than that. So, sounds fantastic, you could make spreadsheet enormous. But unfortunately, you can't use... more than about, probably five hundred K. Nearly a thousand K, but probably about five hundred K on its standard memory. Probably about the maximum you can use. Even if you've got twelve megabytes, you can't use them, let me explain why, erm, it uses the sixteen bytes per block, solely from conventional memory. It puts only certain things into expanded memory. It puts formulae in, that's very useful, as I say it's formulae uses up most memory, but it doesn't put everything. And, the more you put in a spreadsheet, the more and more of the conventional memory you are using up, and eventually when you fill up your conventional memory, you get a memory fault. Even if you've got lots of expanded memory left unused, you can't use it once your conventional memory fills up, that's it. You get a memory fault.... You don't have this problem with problem. Erm, if you erm, maybe erase part of entries of the spreadsheet, you think, oh that's going to free up a lot of memory, er, probably it won't. Once Lotus uses sixteen bytes for the block, it doesn't let go of it. If you put an entry in a cell, put a number one in the cell, then immediately erase it, it doesn't free up that sixteen bytes for that block. And if you're working on a spreadsheet, you may be working on a spreadsheet during the day, start in the morning, you're working several hours, you may find yourself running low of memory, then the memory light comes on or you get a memory full up message at some stage, and you think oh that's not fair, because I haven't made the spreadsheet any bigger. Well, er, all sorts of things cause memory to be used up. Er, one thing that tends to use up a lot of memory, is when you insert columns on the left of the spreadsheets. There's nothing in that new column that you insert, but nevertheless, it uses enormous amount of memory. It uses up as much memory as any maximum column on the right that uses memory. Erm, so what can you do? Well, the answer is pretty simple, you save the file, and you re-retrieve it, and when you re-retrieve the file, erm, it erases the memory to start with, and then erm, fills up the memory from scratch and if there's nothing there any more, then it won't use any memory for it. So you're simply saving. Find yourself running low on memory, save the file and retrieve it back again. Then you may well find a lot any extra memory. Er, when you use range erase to erase a cell, to erase the contents from the cell, so that's er, put the numbers in the cells here. I'll format out ones to the next two decimals, range formats, I'll make that unprotected cell the range protects. Ah, suppose I erase that cell there with range erase... then I get rid of the number of course, but the cell, the cell remains formatted, you can still see the F two at the top grid references. That means it er, formatted to fixed two decimals, and er, that counts as an entry as far as memory is concerned. That will cause sixteen bytes to be used in that block. Even if you save and retrieve the file, it won't free up the memory. And similarly, if you've got an unprotected cell, this one is an unprotected cell, if I erase it, range erase, then the number goes, but still the cell unprotected. How do I know it's still unprotected? [speaker002:] There's a U. [Graham:] There's a U in the top left hand corner, yes. Er, and that counts as an entry, as far as memory is concerned. Erm, so... you would leave what I call this deadwood lying on your spreadsheet, cells that are using up memory, they're not needed any more erm, on many people's spreadsheets I've discovered quite a lot of deadwood using up large amounts of memory, like in some people's cases two-thirds of the memory used by the deadwood. [cough] Certainly, you need to get rid of it, erm, you know how to erm, get rid of the F two don't you?... You gonna tell me? Yes, that's arrange format reset, could get rid of the F two, and you know how to get rid of the... I thought there was more people on that side of the room. [LAUGHTER] ask questions. Sorry, er, what would you do. Somebody say something. Er, changing the global protection doesn't affect the U. Range protection. You need to re-protect, the range protect. Erm, so, if you really want to erm, make sure there's no deadwood, what you would do is do a range format reset of the range you want to erase first of all. Do a range protect on that same range and then a range erase of that same range. You know, it's a lot of tedious having to do all three steps. That's what you would need to do. However, there is a tip to erm, you can do it in one operation. What you would do is copy a blank cell. So you got a cell that's not got any entry in it, is not formatted, so you're looking at the panel you can see that there's no, nothing in the parenthesis, and there's no U. So if you copy a blank cell, over what you want to erase. That's the best way to ensure that you've reset everything. When you've copied the blank, erm, it's not formatted, it's not unprotected, as well any more... So [speaker002:] How can menu [Graham:] You would still have to save and retrieve the file to create the memory, but yes, that woul would be the idea of it. You don't leave deadwood on your spreadsheets, cells that are formatted or unprotected, cos not only do they use memory where you've got the cells but [cough] between that and something else. So quite large areas of your spreadsheet could be using up memory unnecessarily. [cough] [speaker002:] If the memory's full erm, is it to stop you putting up your as files, is that right? [Graham:] You could save and file, yeah. Erm, that's all very well, er, saying it now, but you might have a lot of deadwood on your spreadsheets, er,ho how can you get rid of it? Well, the problem is, you don't know where it is. But it's not invisible unless you move the cell pointer around all over the place looking in the top left hand corner. You can't find these deadwood cells. There's not really a practical to move the cell point to around every single blank cell on your spreadsheet. Erm, one thing you can do is er, if you know that there's a certain range in the spreadsheet that's of any use. That's the only part of the spreadsheet that's of any use, then you can do file extract formulas. Highlight that range, and save it to a file. And er, into that file you save everything, that's within that range, so you save the of course, the numbers, the labels, er, the column widths, range names. So anything of any use, within that range, you save into the file you extract to. But anything outside of that range is not. So cells that are formatted with nothing in them, cells that are unprotected with nothing in them. Unless you know the type of deadwood that occurs in many people's spreadsheets is, the space character itself. No doubt, there's several of you here who are guilty of this. When er, when you delete, er instead of using range erase, you use something else, don't you? Sorry? [speaker002:] is it the space bar? [Graham:] The space bar, yes. That's right,s so there you go. I knew it would be the case. So as long as you get rid of that one, two, three, four, you can press the space bar and then enter. It looks like we've deleted it, doesn't it? Erm, what I've done is, I've put a label in the cell. See the label prefix in the top left, and following it, there's a space, that's a space character, which is invisible. But it looks like we've deleted it. I it is a character, as much as a another letter A is a character. Which is an invisible character, I thought. You wouldn't go typing Ass all over the place, would you, but er, spaces, no problem. And er, it's understandable why people do use the spaces, it's a nice big key. And, if you're just deleting the one cell, it's just the two keys. big space bar, the key at the front, and the big enter key. It's an easy, it's a lot less fiddly than slash and then trying to find the R and the E and then enter.... That's why people do it. Erm, you can other problems as well with the space characters, got no memory. And so I don't recommend you do it. Erm, in two point four, you just do it with one key, if you want to delete a cell out that's del. Just press the del key, and it's gone. You know about that one? It's a bit dangerous if there's two ways you can accidentally press them, and not realizing you've just deleted the contents of the cell. So, that's right. So watch out for the del key. Deletes straight away, with no warning. Gone. I've pressed it a few times by accident and then needed it. Nor normally I just type it in. Right, any questions on any of this so far? [LAUGHTER] [cough] Er, diagonal spreadsheets is also good for getting rid of any deadwood. Erm, cos what you would do is you would er, reset that whole range, that whole range, that whole range, that one and that one, that one, that one, that one. I know I would never put anything over there, or over there, or over there, over there. Knowing quite happily to just rid of all of that. Copy a blank erm, and that would get rid of any deadwood that there is on the spreadsheet, once you've done that, and you've got rid of any deadwood. If you hadn't been consistent in laying them out like this, then you can't so quite confidently go round, go round erasing large chunks of the spreadsheet. And you tend to have less deadwood on a diagonal spreadsheet. Instead of erasing, you can more often will delete, whole rows or columns. You don't need that row any more, so you delete it. And you do and then you not only remove the contents, but the cell formats and the unprotection... I'll ignore that, we any more. Two point four.... [cough] Right so, now you understand how the memory works, and you obviously realize not to leave big gaps between one thing and something below. Erm, when you start One Two Three, if you get er, the menu at the top saying One Two Three, think about and translate or you just go straight into the spreadsheet, you do get the One Two Three... you're starting er, from what's called the access menu. Er, in DOS, if you type Lotus, you get that access menu, with One Two Three translate, if yo in DOS, type one two three, the numbers one two three, you go straight into the spreadsheet, and you have eight K more [cough] conventional memory, if you do. You don't go through the access menu, an eight K conventional memory means could put more into expanded memory more conventional memory you've got, the more you can put into expanded memory. Right, any questions on that? [speaker002:] that much expanded memory if you they can only use five hundred K? [Graham:] Erm. Well, they probably don't have that much. Do you know anybody that's got that much? Erm, a lot of people have got, maybe, five thou three thousand. Depends how much ma if you, maybe new P C these days, it would normally have it already on it four thousand K of memory, and three thousand left could be converted to expanded memory, but it's not worth it only use five hundred K of it probably. And you might could try a thousand K, erm, with oth other programs, if you start using Windows,y you need to use the so software called Microsoft Windows if you're going to use one to four. And yet, that would use all of that memory.... But er, one two is that, you can't use all the memory you've got. [cough] Erm, the short section here on useful formulae, in fact, basically just one formula. It's useful in design. Erm, I've put a label A B C, in one cell, D E F in another cell, and in this cell B five, I've got the formula, plus the three ampersand B four, and th the result of it is this longer label, if you join the two labels together to make this label A B C D E F. Anybody using ampersand at all?... You have used it. Erm, what have you used it for? [speaker002:] for that sort [Graham:] That sort of thing, right, and why... did you want to use it? Erm, let me just demonstrate how it works. A B C D E F you put ampersand that. And it's a formula, so if you change those cells, the formula will be calculat no, let's type my first and second names in, and er, it's the two names together. It doesn't look very good, having erm, first and the second name without a space between the two, but I can actually put a space there if we entered a formula, by putting a double quote space, another double quote, and then another ampersand, filling the spaces of D six. There we go.... [cough] So why would you use it, er, that's have a look at.... So, I've got a parameters s section that we were talking about before, putting all the things that you might change into one part of the spreadsheet. So a department name, the admin department, a department code, one hundred, and as I was saying er, you wanna to get in the top left hand corner, any information that keeps you informed so I wanna get both the department code and the department name into that one cell. You've only got the one cell left available. I need to get both pieces of information into that one cell. And I can do that with this formula. I can do that... ampersand... that... or those two cells have got range names the range names. Erm, if I put a space in, it might look a bit better. You don't have to have a space, you can have anything you like. That, perhaps... [sneeze] and I change the name of the department, the er s marketing department, department, erm, one O two. Let's change that.... The one O two you might notice here, has been entered as a label. If I was to enter it a number, one O two.... It's a number now on a label, then, this formula doesn't like it. It says error. Cos you can't join a number to a label. By the way, you can convert a number to a label with a certain add function. I don't suppose anyone would know. [speaker002:] a chart. [Graham:] Er, it's something like that [blowing nose] er, is the word that two parts, two arguments to the string, there's the number B four comma, and then a number [cough] for the number of decimal places you want in your label, so zero, so I get a label with three characters here one O two. If I put a two there, I'll have an extra three characters and gives me a full stop and two zeros. [speaker002:] Sorry, that change of one number to label. [Graham:] That's a label now, yes. See, it's left align, whereas that's right align. That's a label. Now multiply that by two then er, zero on rather than the two. Erm, so what I can do is to put the B four here inside of that string comma zero. There we go.... So, that's the use of that. There are many other uses for these formulae. The formulae that work on labels, they're never string formulae. The ampersand joins one label to another, I use the word join erm, it's not the official technical word for what it does, does anybody know what the erm, official word for what this does is known as? [speaker002:] Concatenate? [Graham:] Yes, concatenate. It concatenates. Concatenation is the alteration that er, the ampersand does. Programmers concatenate a lot. They concatenate their variables. If you ever hear programmers talking, you might hear them say something like that. Have you concatenated your variables today?... But er, these the word joining spreadsheets terms. Bit shorter, not as funny. So, that's the er, I want cover in the next section. We'll now have er another test. I'll give you a few minutes to revise, then er, we can see if the er lesson... Does anyone know what time the coffee break is er?... [speaker002:] The canteen's just opposite there [Graham:] Right... Right, do you know where we er slot the last one? It was just after er, page thirty nine, so on page forty three onwards... Right, are you ready? Er, the left started last time, so the right can go this time. Erm, what was my convention for lines? [speaker002:] table, erm, double dashes for the total and full stops for your sub total. Yeah. [Graham:] Oh yes, quite right, across almost right, not quite. Ah, cheating. [speaker002:] That is. double line at the bottom of the [Graham:] Which side are you on? [speaker002:] Total, yeah, he's on our side. That's what I said. Single data sub-total. Double for the total and a row of dots for your sub, sub-total. Your two lots of double lines. ... [Graham:] Have you got any an answers on that on the right? One of you... left sorry, on the left, you're not on that side, are you? [speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Erm, well erm, what you said was correct. Th the double line doesn't mean necessarily th that the total of it is the end of the sub-section, the dots,sub sub-section. So er, I won't give anybody any points. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh [Graham:] Er, over to the er left this time. What was my invention for indenting. How did I do the indenting, with the sub-titles and totals? [speaker002:] Well, you [LAUGHTER] you indented them []. [Graham:] Oh no, no, no, [speaker002:] You have them in the style of how you physically did it. [Graham:] The style, yes. [speaker002:] No, you had yours [Graham:] I'm not sure [speaker002:] Then, then all your erm, your data under underneath your heading you indented. [Graham:] How much how much was various things indented? [speaker002:] Two or three points. [LAUGHTER] So it looks good, but it looks alright. [Graham:] Alright, erm, well I remember how do I get a sub-title and then a total at the bottom? You know, you had the sub-title and things indents below that, then a total. So, how did I indent the sub-title, the detail and th the total line? [speaker002:] Your first title was indented the same amount as your first title. [Graham:] Right. Yes. [speaker002:] Then your grand total was right over to the left hand... side. Yes. [Graham:] Er, oh in the example that I gave, yes, because it was totalling what... the grand total. [speaker002:] Well, A B various sections. [Graham:] Er... what was it lined up with? [speaker002:] What? The grand total or... [Graham:] Yes. The grand total. What was [speaker002:] It was lined up with the erm, the title of that column, Which was the [Graham:] Erm... [speaker002:] the actual heading, yes. [Graham:] So, in the example you're referring to, I had like a title and then I had a sub-title and further details and another sub- title and further details, and then I had a total line... [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] sort of grand total here. So, what was that gr the total was totalling everything. The whole of that. So what was that? How here. What was that line here that one. [speaker002:] With the top line. Top line [Graham:] That's the one, yes. Right, that was my. [speaker002:] Give me about two points for that actually. [Graham:] Shall we give them two? Erm, in the titles of the spreadsheets, in the top you know the top rows of the spreadsheet. What did I put where? There was various types of information... [speaker002:] Are, varied wannit. No, variable en [Graham:] There's things. Yes that vary and things that don't vary. Where did I put them? [speaker002:] Yeah, the thing that varied the less was the top and the most at the bottom and the middle was the middle. Yeah. [Graham:] And things that don't vary? [speaker002:] Bottom. Either in the top... Er, the... along the line at the top, you know [Graham:] Not the top left. [speaker002:] like the date and the time you know along the top right... [Graham:] The right. Not, not yes, that's good. That's it. Right good. Over to this side now, erm, [cough] give me three things that you can do to make it easy t for the eye to see what er, particular number is refer w which rows is referring answer to? [speaker002:] The shaded one [Graham:] Yes, that's one and what every row? [speaker002:] You know [cough] wouldn't it [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] Testing. Right. [speaker002:] Inset row, [Graham:] That's one, shading, every so many rows. [speaker002:] Blank rows, every so many rows. [Graham:] Inset what, sorry? [speaker002:] A blank row. [Graham:] A blank row, yes that's two yes. [speaker002:] And put your titles on both sides. [Graham:] Put your titles on both sides, right. Okey-doke. put the side [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] You've [Graham:] How should you format your spreadsheets?... [speaker002:] Could you rephrase that please. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Erm [speaker002:] On the large side [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] erm I could guess. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] I don't think I will [speaker002:] Diagonally. [cough] If you were putting form, you wouldn't have to. [Graham:] No, I'm talking about the cell formats, you know I can fix two decimal, the comma format. How, how do you... set the comma format? [speaker002:] load Load [Graham:] How do you do that? [speaker002:] erm, range format comma two enter. [Graham:] Erm, we've got several different answers to the same thing. What's the er... how do you do a global format? [speaker002:] global formula in [Graham:] Right, okay. Alright, I'll give you that then. On the other side, on a new spreadsheet what is the new global format called? Brand new spreadsheet. What is it set to? [speaker002:] two points. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] graphs? [speaker002:] General. [Graham:] General! Right, yes. [speaker002:] Which is what? Which is what? Indent. [Graham:] It's called the general formula. [speaker002:] Yes, but isn't the general formula got a [Graham:] Er, it's, it fits the number you can, to be typed one, two three point one, you'll see one, two three point one. [speaker002:] Oh, right. [Graham:] Er, if you type a very big number, you might get the scientific, that is what the E thing. Erm, right. Okey-dokes. right again. Erm, erm, what's the advantages, two advantages of using these global formats? [speaker002:] two erm, [Graham:] That's right. [speaker002:] And global. it, it's easier to have the global change things come out of the global and change things. [Graham:] Yes. It's easy to change things if you say, I want, three decimals instead of two whenever. Change them over and everything. All the global settings change, yes. That's one reason. Two reasons?... [speaker002:] It would be easier than a password if you need to check out changing the [Graham:] Yeah. You don't have to format something and put them in. That's right. That's it. Right. Good... to the other side. Erm. Give me er, four pieces of advice in a bag. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Don't go out after nine o'clock. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Don't do after nine o'clock. Erm. A wise advice about the typographical style, you might call it, er, [speaker002:] Don't use more than [Graham:] Don't use more than two, yes. Okay, that's one. [speaker002:] Oh, this thing about landscape and style consisting. [Graham:] Give 'em one, there, yes. Two. [speaker002:] Don't use auto compress. [Graham:] Don't use auto compress, yes. You need one more. [speaker002:] Don't know, I can't think. You know the we got, you don't need it on. Or is that related to auto compress? [Graham:] Sorry, what did you say? [speaker002:] Don't attach with you. Because if you got auto [Graham:] Don't erm, right now, now say erm, realize that when you are using it. [speaker002:] Oh, right. Not too many lines [Graham:] Yeah, okay, too many horizontal vertical lines I also mentioned er, not marrying the row heights, get more on a page. that. Okay. Erm, now over to the right. Erm, what should you do with the At Sum? [speaker002:] below that row. [Graham:] below, yes. Okay. Erm, on the other side. Why? [speaker002:] So that if you don't. If you insert a line... At the bottom. Total. If you insert a line underneath... [Graham:] Right. Okay. Certainly not right. Erm, what did I recommend you do with whizzy-wig. In the case out sum. Er, well draw a line, you do have to have an extra row put on it. So what you could do with it. With the bottom line. What did I say? [speaker002:] to the top. [cough] at the top That's right, you completely... You can reduce that row And you could put a line in [Graham:] At least there are you can about one and put a line on the top of the total line, er, afraid that's wrong. [speaker002:] What was the question? [Graham:] Erm, with, when you, when you drawing a line with whizzy-wig, and you got the At Sum below it, how should you do it? [speaker002:] Oh, That's what she said. [Graham:] That's what she said, yes, but er, she got it wrong. [speaker002:] Yes, it they did. Oh, I don't know [Graham:] Yes, that's right. That's one point. But what's the other point. There's also got wrong on this side. About the line. Where do you put the line? [speaker002:] bottom of the line. On the bottom of the blank line. [Graham:] Yes. Put on, on the bottom of the blank line, rather than putting it top of the total line. Yes, because if you do that, you know where you've put the insert. Right. It's the left's turn again, I think, isn't it? Right. Erm, what's a danger with long formulae? [speaker002:] Chopping the [Graham:] How can, how does the end get chopped off? [speaker002:] [cough] If you insert more rows than the numbers... [Graham:] Cell addresses [speaker002:] Cell address get longer [Graham:] Get longer. And they get chopped off where? [speaker002:] About to two hundred and forty characters. [Graham:] Erm, but what, what do you have to do to chop it off? [speaker002:] Nothing. If you didn't say anything, if you didn't give a me editing for a formula... or copy it [cough] to somewhere else where the cell adjusting are longer, then it makes the formula longer and then you get [Graham:] So the formula get longer, okay, but it er, works alright, until you do something. What's that thing, something you do that causes it to get chopped off? [speaker002:] Call F two call it up again. [Graham:] What did you say then. [speaker002:] If you press F two... [Graham:] F two, that's what I was after, yes. If you press F two, and then do what? [speaker002:] It loses the chopped, the end of it. [Graham:] Yes. [speaker002:] Oh, so if you don't, if you don't call it up to edit it, you can keep changing it and it will still stay the same? [Graham:] That's right. [speaker002:] Oh, right... confusing [Graham:] Er... yes, [cough] right erm. What did I say about how not to input certain numbers? Slightly vague question. What shouldn't you do when you're inputting several different numbers? Vague question. It's an easy answer... to a vague question. So it does look. You've got several numbers to input. What should you do? too vaguely. [speaker002:] Several digits or several numbers? [Graham:] Different numbers. You got sales figure and the unit sales. Sorry... [speaker002:] Yeah, erm, down the individual figures. [Graham:] Yes. [speaker002:] of one. [Graham:] Yeah, give you half. [speaker002:] Oh, that's unreasonable. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] graphs. [speaker002:] What was the, what was the answer? Yeah, but they didn't put it down individually on spreadsheet. [Graham:] Yeah, then put all the, all the separate inputs in, in one cell. [speaker002:] You remember when you did that formula hundred divided by an eight brackets, something, something? Oh, I see, oh right. [Graham:] Right. Erm, how cross checks. I want precise details on this. [speaker002:] Put F formula. [Graham:] F formula, right. [speaker002:] Underneath the two... [Graham:] Where do you put your F formula? [speaker002:] Up in the right hand side of the work in the bottom of your column. [Graham:] Okay. Yes. And how do you... [speaker002:] The... erm... er the question checking the answer. You put a test in, don't you? Test... Whether it's greater or less. [Graham:] What's the test? [speaker002:] If it, if it like this, then put this answer, if not... [tape change]

[Graham:] Insert one row and copy and then insert another row and copy. [speaker002:] You mean insert [Graham:] Insert [speaker002:] formulae? [Graham:] That's right. Over on the other side, erm... you're given a range name. You got a formula. You see a range name, erm, average exchange let's say. So you [cough] same address divided by average exchange. If you copy that formula down to the cell below, what would you see? [speaker002:] Erm. Then whatever cell was below average exchange. Erm, it would jump down one, unless you adding... [Graham:] That cell address divided by average exchange. The cell below. You copy it down. [speaker002:] It down erm, it would come down a different, the wrong figure. [Graham:] So let's, suppose you had C twenty six divided by average exchange. Copy it down you see. [speaker002:] E three divided by average exchange. [Graham:] That's getting on to the right. Yes, not an absolute... [speaker002:] No. [Graham:] Okay, over to the other side. Erm,... erm how do you check whether... ho how do you check how much, how big your disk is? What do you type precisely? [speaker002:] C H two B S blank [Graham:] Right. Okay. How do you find out what memory you've got? To develop into your spreadsheet? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Sorry? Where's your systems? [speaker002:] Data [Graham:] Data status? [cough] [speaker002:] No. [Graham:] Changed your mind on that. Right. Check disk. [speaker002:] No, no that's on the disk. It's, you go into status... [Graham:] Another unanimous What the unanimous... decision of the team? [speaker002:] Worksheet status. [Graham:] Worksheet status. Are you happy with that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Happy with that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Happy with that? [speaker002:] Yeah, [Graham:] Yeah, I'll give you that. Don't put you off. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] [cough] Right, erm... how does memory get used in One Two Three, Release Two? [speaker002:] Rapidly. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] It, it may be true, not the answer we need. [speaker002:] Is it column blocks? [cough] [Graham:] Column blocks. Okay. [cough] Bit more. [speaker002:] One... [Graham:] What's the key thing about memory, how it's used? [speaker002:] It uses up all the gaps in between the gaps. [Graham:] The gaps in between. That's what I was after. Right. Okay, how does Release Three and want to check the Windows differ? [speaker002:] It doesn't use the gap... it doesn't use up the gaps... between erm the distance working [Graham:] Big distances. What defines, what's a big distance? That's right, is it? [cough] When he fills up the gaps within the five hundred and twelve row blocks he gets. Okay. Er, why can't you use all of your expanded memory?... [speaker002:] Yeah. out the room. I think it's because it can't address it. I went out next. [Graham:] No, you were all in here at the time. [speaker002:] on the phone [Graham:] Oh, were you? Oh, you might have been I but most of you were certainly here. [speaker002:] Got as far as you could only use five hundred and forty odd or something was it [Graham:] Saying you could probably only use practically only five hundred K Why? [speaker002:] Because your main memory won't take all the expanded memory anyway. Will it? It will only expand, take something [Graham:] Er, I'm not with you, sorry? I'll pass it across. [speaker002:] Could you condense some [Graham:] Yes. When your conventional memory runs up, you can't put more into expanded memory. What,wh wh feeling slightly bigger, you get three and a half, but er... what goes into conven what goes into conventional memory? What uses up the conventional memory? [speaker002:] spreadsheet [Graham:] Well, I can't deny that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] like erm, all the extras. The additional things. [Graham:] Er, it wasn't what I was after. [speaker002:] certain things to go [Graham:] Yes. Okay. Yes [speaker002:] Like formulae and things [Graham:] So what doesn't go into expanded memory, then? [speaker002:] Data. It is the actual text the input bit... [Graham:] That's supposed to go into the expanded memory. [speaker002:] Oh. [Graham:] What did I say, doesn't go into expanded memory? [speaker002:] Numbers. [Graham:] Well... [speaker002:] Labels. [Graham:] It's partly true, but... [speaker002:] Labels. [Graham:] No. No, I think you're on the wrong track. [speaker002:] Is your conventional memory? [Graham:] What does, what... what only goes into conventional memory... not into expanded? Erm, I'd better tell you. It's the sixteen bytes block. That's the minimum amount of memory that gets used. That is used solely out of conventional. [cough] I'll give you half, anyway. Right, er, same again. Erm. If you find yourself running out of memory, and you're working on a spreadsheet for a while, what should you do? [speaker002:] Save it and retrieve it. [Graham:] Save it and retrieve it, that's the one, yes. Right, why's that? The other side.. Why should, what does it do, if you save and retrieve? Or what I want to know is but the question is... [speaker002:] You take anything that you've in that you've erased on it and then put it back in. [Graham:] Yes, when you erase something, it doesn't free up the memory straight away. Okay. Erm, when you erm, erase a cell, with range erase. What do you get rid of? [speaker002:] Everything. Just, just typing with any erm [Graham:] You get rid of the format. You get rid of when you do range erase. [speaker002:] No, you don't, no you don't. Range erase, you just get rid of what's in the cell. You don't get rid of the format. memory in. [Graham:] Right. Yes, that's right. You don't get rid of the format. Okay, fine... very generous there. Er, erm, right. How do you get rid of, what's the best, what did I say was the best way of getting rid of everything out of the cell? [speaker002:] Copy it all in to... Blank cell. [Graham:] Copy a blank cell. That's blank... in what way is it blank? [speaker002:] no formula [Graham:] No, no formula and what else is not... [speaker002:] Not protected. [Graham:] No protect. [speaker002:] No labels. [Graham:] No. No protect, is that what you mean? [speaker002:] Whatever. [LAUGHTER] top there. [Graham:] There's no what at the top? [speaker002:] No Us or... [Graham:] No U that be unprotect. Right, and no format. Right, okay. I'll give you that. Erm. How do you get rid of deadwood? [speaker002:] You chop [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] What's that? [speaker002:] I'll take a guess at you want [cough] and then it deadwood exact part of the spreadsheet, [Graham:] Can do. That's one way. How, exactly do you do the extract? Or what menu options do you choose? [speaker002:] slash range. [Graham:] So the other question enter extract. [speaker002:] File name extract it all in one go. [Graham:] file name [speaker002:] Formulae or... Oh, values or formula. Values... [Graham:] Which of the two? [speaker002:] Well, formulae will take the labels and everything. Values will just take the figures. There's no formulae I know that [Graham:] So which one you want then? [speaker002:] Formula. [Graham:] Formula. Right. Okey-doke. Alright, I'll give you that. That's one way of doing it. Er, what's an another way. Getting rid of deadwood? [speaker002:] Clearing columns and rows. If you've done a diagonal. You should be able to clear all columns the rows to the right of your [Graham:] Oh, right, erase [speaker002:] Coming down, yeah [Graham:] all those different ranges... [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] would you say? Right. Okey-dokey. Erm, I can't think of any questions there.... Er, how can you have eight K more memory than most of you seem to have? [speaker002:] rather than print the erm... Yeah. Without getting the print wrong. [Graham:] How do you... [speaker002:] One Two Three, [Graham:] Right, that's it. Good. Right. Okey-doke. That's the end of the competition. Picked the right one on that one as well, didn't I? Most of them were wrong on this one Right. I missed some questions out Right. Linking files, copying data from one file to another in various ways. Erm [cough] so, there's various methods, we'll go into specific methods in a minute, but er, when you are passing data from one file to another, you ought to use passing and receiving areas. This is the same, in the same way that we had passing and receiving areas, of passing data from one part of a spreadsheet to another part of a spreadsheet. Erm, so you bring all the data down, passing over the simple formulae and then do one copy. So file combine is the method. You've had a look at that before. Combine at range, try and arrange all the files into another file. You only need to one file combine, that's one advantage, instead of three, so it's about three times quicker. But er, there's also an advantage of passing and receiving areas as there is before. Er, all to keep in clear order where information was going to and from. Erm, instead of you can combine directly a range from one file into another file. You can also er, another method, you could while you're working on this file, use extract to save that range of that file to a separate file, [cough] and then when you retrieve this file you can com you combine this file here. This small file to there. So you can either go that way or you go direct. Erm, the advantage of this way is it [cough] tends to confuse [cough] most of the time, but it's a lot quicker. It only takes half a second to save that relatively small range. That small file, and it only takes half a second to combine that relatively small file to there. But it might take half a minute to combine this range from this relatively large file. [writing on board] So in terms of overall computer speed, that method could be quicker, but I don't recommend you use it actually, because it's risky. It's risky in the sense that you change this file. You save it, but you forget to extract that range to a separate file. And then go to this file, and then you combine in this file here to there, and you don't realize it's an old copy. That's a risk, that's where you get the wrong answers. [speaker002:] When you, when you expect that that that that takes the copy back in the old file. [Graham:] Oh, it does. When you do file extract, just er, saving part, it's not removing it from this. [speaker002:] Its copying it though. [Graham:] Just copying it, yes. Like you do a file save. When you do a file save. Your file doesn't disappear. Right, now, the specific methods, file combine, is one method. Er, file combine has its problems, though. Anybody had any problems with file combine? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] What's the problem you had? [speaker002:] the that, sometimes you can get combine figures with, with file display, but it doesn't combine correctly, or edit properly, or edit formulae [Graham:] Formulae. Right that's the problem. Formulae. Er, let's look at this spreadsheet here. I've got an input number there. A number on the grid. In that cell I've got a formula, just multiply the number above by the number of the left. Then got a label and then got another formula in a cell. I want to copy those four numbers into another file. So you each give those four cells a range name, which I have already done. Range name, create data. It's not my normal name if you notice, but the name those four cells data, okey-doke. And er, I'll save the file, and er, I want to copy that data, let's say to here. Put the cell point in there. If I do a file combine and then copy and then just part of the file, so it's name you'll specify the range. What range? It's the range the range name data. So I'll type that in. Now what's the name of the file? Well, the file is called F C V. Press enter, and there's the hundred, that's fine, but this should have a... thirty in it, it's got a zero in it. The reason being is that it's copied for formula across, see at the top F eight time E nine, and that formula has gone and recalculated... straight away. It's multiplied a hundred above by a blank cell on the left and you get zero. So that's why, it's copied the formulas across. I didn't want the formulae. I was just wanted the numbers... [speaker002:] menu. [Graham:] There isn't an option unfortunately, erm, er, one potential solution er, which may well work, is to use file, combine add instead of copy, let's have a go with that one. Add main range data file F C V and ah, there we've got the right numbers, a hundred and a thirty. Look in the top left, there's no formulae. Not that we want it, just the number, that's fine. Er, what we haven't got though, is a label there. There was a label in that cell, er file combine add, doesn't copy labels. It doesn't copy formulae, it doesn't copy labels either. But if, if you don't need labels, then file combine add is an acceptable way of coping the data across. [speaker002:] I just want to tell you, time I done that done that on a number of spreadsheets compared with the same label on one, on one [Graham:] Yeah, that had a label in the cell, if I had A B C in that cell. If I was to do a file combine add again. File, combine add take range. Take F C V. It doesn't know I've written the A B C, [speaker002:] Right. [Graham:] so it, any, whenever I have a cell, put a label in [speaker002:] Oh. [Graham:] it or a formula in it. What it also does, as you see, is it adds what you combine combining two of what's on the spreadsheet. So it's got two hundred there now. So before you do a file combine add, you need to erase first, and then do the file combine add. So that it doesn't add the numbers to what's on the screen. Now, if you do want labels, as well as the numbers. What you doing to do? Well, this is the solution. You set recalculation to manual, first. You put a slash, worksheet, global recalculation... and manual... and then you do your file combine copy again. File. Combine. Copy. Name range. Data, and F C V then file. Right, so there's all the right numbers, and the label. Still copy the formulas across, you notice. But the formulas haven't calculated yet. sorted out in your calculator, as soon as you combine them. What I need to do therefore, is get rid of the formulae, just leave the numbers there. How do you do that? Er, how do I get rid of these formulae, that one and that one, but leave the numbers there? [speaker002:] Or some... value. [Graham:] Something value, yes. [speaker002:] Erm. Range value. [Graham:] Range value, yes, that's it. You do slash... range... value. It works just like copy does. With one difference. What's the difference? Exactly the same as copy, but there's one difference. The way copy works. [speaker002:] copy [Graham:] Anything said at the back. Yes, it is. [speaker002:] It doesn't copy the formulae. [Graham:] It doesn't copy the formulae. Yes, that's the difference between copy and range value. So, erm, highlight what you want to copy, which is that, and then ask where do you want to copy to. So where should I copy to? [speaker002:] Same place. [Graham:] The same place, that's it. Normally when you copy, you copy somewhere different, er, which I could do, but er, I'm gonna copy it to the same place. So I just press enter. [speaker002:] If you copy it to a different place, does it leave the blank formulas... [Graham:] In the original place, yes. [speaker002:] somewhere else. [Graham:] Use the second one just with the numbers, that's right, yes. But I've copied over to the same place, what it seems to be doing provided the cell pointed out, you're looking at the top left. You don't see the formulae any more, just the number if there's one there. [cough] So that's the solution. You set recalculation to manual, do the file from my own copy and then use range value to remove formulae... So that's the file combining method. Getting data across... We'll go on to another... another way of getting data across from one file to another is with a special type of formula. Like this one at the top. If I type that formula in a cell on a spreadsheet. What's the two the name of the file, two greater than the cell address and it er, gets to the data from that cell and that other file. Have you ever done, used these formulae. Anybody used them? By linking formulae. You've used them [speaker002:] Linking files together. [Graham:] For linking files together. Right, and there's various pros and cons to be aware of. So that's rather good. So let's demonstrate first of all how they work. I've got a file named sales one. Here it is, and erm, leave these er, on this row er twenty five, I've got a total sales figures, and it's that total sales figure there that I want to pass across into another file. Let me save this file. That's the cell C twenty five that bears the total. I've got a file called income two, and let me just erase what's here first of all. Right, so we'll type a formula into this cell, this is where I want the total sales figure to be. So type plus two less thans, the name of the file, which is sales one, two greater thans, and a cell address, C twenty five and then enter... and that number one five four is, you got from that file sales one, in cell C twenty five, and I can copy that formula to the right, just like any other formula, I can copy it. Erm, there we go, and er, we copy right C twenty five E twenty five, that's it.... Let me save this file. Letting me go back to the sales file. Have to change some of the numbers. Right, let's save the file. Let's retrieve the, the er, other file back again, and as soon as you retrieve it, updated it, data from the other file. So, as you retrieve it, it's updated the file. That sounds very good. You didn't have to press any buttons, it just did it. [speaker002:] Shouldn't that be a range name instead of a cell address? [Graham:] Er, well, yes, we'll come to that. Wh why might you want to do that? [speaker002:] of spreadsheets are... [Graham:] Sorry? [speaker002:] Well, a group of spreadsheets [Graham:] You put re you would want to put range names on the cell. Instead of C twenty five, you have a range name. Is that what you mean? [speaker002:] Yeah, well I manually combine at the moment... the range names. A number of range names from a number of... [Graham:] You file combine? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Oh, I think what you're trying to say is can you combine a whole range and not just one cell. Right. Well, I'll come back to that. Let me go back to er the inco er the sales file. Let's say we're gonna research a number of products. The product er... F [writing on board]... write numbers. Here we go. Save it away. Let's retrieve the other one back again... the numbers... [speaker002:] absolute type [Graham:] That's right, erm, I can save it with the row on the other files, but the total is now on row twenty six, but this is still referring to the same cells, C twenty five. [speaker002:] Oh. [Graham:] The row twenty five is no now contains a dash blind. Erm, so that's not very good. Erm, at least I spotted it here, and I can rea realize what the problem is. Change that to a twenty six and then copy this er right. But, er, you might not have spotted it, and furthermore, you might have er, referred to another row that contains numbers. Here it was obvious that something was wrong, because you saw a dash. But you could have er, be er could now be referring to a different row that happens to have the same numbers in. Might not seen obviously wrong. So, therefore you get wrong answers. So, this is a big risk with these highlighted formulas, if you do it this way. Of course, we're always going to be inserting and deleting and moving things about, so, er, the risk of this happening will be very high. But there is a solution, and that's to use range names. [cough] So let's go back to the file again.... Er, I could name that cell with a range name, that cell there, the first cell. range name create, erm, in fact, I've already done it. Th this cell, erm, C twenty six, I've named cell zero one. That cell there. Name cell zero one. Cell zero two. Name that one. E twenty six, I've named zero three, and so on. That's my normal naming convention, my normal naming convention is use the first two letters W L. W I've explained, and L stands for linking. So you have to create a range name for each cell that you're going to link. Let's go back to the other file... er, I'm going to put a range name in, cell zero one on that one. Cell zero two on that one.... Right, so I, I've put, got the range names on the first two, but not on the others. Let's save this file... and then retrieve the er, other one back again. Let's insert yet another product. Type in the numbers... save it, retrieve the other one back again. So at least the first two cells are still picking up the right two numbers, because we used the range names, we've inserted a row on the other file, but er, we're still about range names found where those cells are. Whereas here and in that range name it's still referring to row twenty six.... So that's the solution. Use the range names when you file formulae. [speaker002:] Sorry. I want to erm, go ahead and put files formulae information three files one point one down [Graham:] Yes, [speaker002:] Can I do that? [Graham:] yes, you can have diff different opening formulae with a different part name in it. Yes, but no not into the one cell. You have to bring the two separate cells into fourth cell, total number. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Erm. You can't link a whole range to a whole range, you can only have [cough] to one cell. So this a thing you won't like about it, is that if you've got er, thirteen columns and ten rows, that means you have to create hundred and thirty range names, which you won't enjoy doing. Erm, but you really need to do it, cos the risk of things going wrong are very high, you don't... Right, let's file I wanted to say a fe a few things about One Two Three Release Three, cos there are some differences on the Windows products. When you retrieve the linked file one two three, release three of four, it doesn't automatically update itself, and it does here. So what do you need to do in order to release three or four? One thing you can do, is do file admin link and that goes and gets the data from the file on the disk. It takes it then. But I don't use it, er, because it's incredibly slow. It can measure it and wait hours. If you've got a, if you're linked to a big file and you got a lot of linking formulae, you can wait hours for it to finish. So you want to avoid it at all costs in release three of four. So what should you do? Well, in release three of four you can have more than one file open at the same time. Let me... show you. Here's the first file that I've got, this is the sales file, and, to bring the second file into memory in this, this One Two Three Release Three, you do file open. That leaves this file in memory, but brings another one into memory. Er, might as well move the next one in... and that cell's got a file linking formulae which is updated cos of the files in the memory. Let's just create a window, so we can see both files on the screen at the same time. Right, so in the lower window, we've got the sales file, and the upper window we've got the income file. The linking formulae in that cell. If I change a number here, you'll notice,si since I change that number here it recalculates through... to the other file. The two files are in memory. When you change one, the other automatically recalculates through. So if you need to pass data across from one file to another in release three or four, they don't convert the files and then they, data transfers across virtually easy... Any questions... on that. Right, er, we got tea or coffee or a soft drink [speaker002:] ... [everyone talking] [Graham:] Ten, fifteen minutes. How long do you need? [fifteen minutes] Well, a little bit about managing your files. Is there a tape recorder in here somewhere? [speaker002:] has got it By the wall here. [Graham:] Oh, right. That's why you're quiet over there, is it? [LAUGHTER] So a bit about managing your files. Er, you shouldn't put too many files in one directory, cos then you can't find them, when you're looking for a file. You see a whole list of files you can't retrieve, you get a whole list of appearing. And, er, you probably retrieve half a dozen files before you find [crockery noise] the one that you want. Has this happened to you from time to time? You can't remember what you called a certain file, and... [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] it looks like it might be that one, got to try that one. Not the one. Er, is it this one? No. No, it's not that one. You can retrieve quite a few,wa waste a lot of time, anyway. [cough] Erm, what you want to do is to create lots of directories and put different sets of files in different directories. Are you familiar with directories? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] DOS. Making directories. Erm, the analogy is the filing cabinets. Er, you wouldn't have a great big stack of paper in the corner of the room. [LAUGHTER] Well, er, if you did, then if you were looking for something, you couldn't find where it was, you know, you'd have to delve in, and you take ages to find whatever you're looking for. But er, if you file everything away in filing cabinets, then er, you can go to the right filing cabinet, open the right drawer, maybe there's some folders in there. Pick out the right folder, if it's got a tab on it. Then maybe between various other pieces of paper, you find the one that you're after. And, find thing quickly. Erm. So. Erm, you want to put your own computer files in directories in the same way.... You ever created a directory? How do you do it? [cough] [speaker002:] Erm, you have created a sub with DOS. [Graham:] Created a sub-directory, right. [speaker002:] In erm, DOS, do you do M D... [Graham:] M D, that's right... [speaker002:] space, back-slash... [Graham:] What does M D stand for? [speaker002:] Main directory... [Graham:] You, if you get the C prompt. You've seen the C prompt, have you? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Graham:] And, you wanted to create a, a sub-directory off the root directories [cough] known as root directories you would type M D... space... suppose you wanted to create a directory named put, put your budgets in. Keep them in, press enter. So that creates... a sub-directory, off your root directory, called... put. You may have a list of directories as well, off the root directory, and then you've got a directory called One Two Three One Two Three programs in. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Graham:] And you may have some other directories. Then if you've got one called DOS. Put the DOS programs in there [speaker002:] All that, all I can do is pick a file out of my come under One Two Three, but if you do that in Lotus you have to do the one two three first. No, you can create a separate sub-directory. I've got one two three and a black-slash But if you put two three and I put in in the sub-directory. Yeah, that's what I mean, you have to do it on one two three. No. No, when you do make directories, you just put you wouldn't save it into... Oh, I think it... Saving it into one two three Yes, but once you, once you [cough] automatically. Yeah. [Graham:] How do you get into DOS? If you're in One Two Three of that suppose you wanted to make a directory. [speaker002:] use it. [Graham:] How do you get into DOS? [speaker002:] We have to go out I'd exit out... Yeah. [Graham:] You could quit. Yeah. You could do, but then you have to restart One Two Three and re-retrieve your spreadsheet and all the rest of it. [cough] If you choose system from the top menu, that puts you into DOS, but it leaves One Two Three there. So you quickly get back... so it's pointing at my one two three directory, so if I do M D... [speaker002:] yeah. [Graham:] if I do M D space put here, it will create a sub-directory, below the one two three directory, but if I want [cough] as a sub-directory from the roots directory, I have to type M D back-slash put. That would make it off the root directory. Erm. You can also point, well you start, you can point at the root directory, if you wanted to. Do you know how to do that? At the moment it's pointing at this one two three directory, back-slash P back-slash one two three Now you point at the root directory... [speaker002:] You directory [Graham:] You use You do C D [cough] sorry, I should have said M D [cough] If you want to make a directory off the root directory, [cough] you type M D to make directory. If you want to point at another directory, you do C D... change directory, and that's pointing at the root directory there. Er so, when I want to create a directory called put off the root directory. I can do M D space put. I've got a directory here, now. You may want to put further sub-directories below that, maybe for different years, ninety three, ninety four... ninety five. How do you how do you do that? [speaker002:] back-slash one two... [Graham:] Don't you do... [speaker002:] Do the and then the back-slash and then the [Graham:] Yes, you can do er, you can M D... [speaker002:] Put. [Graham:] Put... M D I can do back-slash got a lot of space put here back-slash ninety three. Or you could [cough] you could point to that directory called put first of all. You do C D space put, so you're pointing at that directory, and then if you do M D ninety three, M D space ninety three, and then I've created a sub-directory in ninety three, below this directory. You do M D space ninety four, and create that one, and so on. And you can go further down under the ninety three and you may want to create further sub-directories. So, the put is like your filing cabinets. And these directories are like drawers in your filing cabinets and then you've got further sub-directories still, below that, then er, they're like folders, within your er, filing cabinet drawer. So you put your files in these different directories and then, when you're looking for something, er, you'll find it more easily. If you're looking for a budget file, for a particular year, and you know where to look. How do you erm, well, to get back into Lotus, type exit, and then enter... Hang on right back to the spreadsheet. [cough] How do I erm, change it, so that when I do file retrieve, it lists directories in... put ninety three. It lists files. If I do file retrieve it, it lists the files in put ninety three. That's the directory here. How do you do that? Well, you could type it all. [speaker002:] what I do and then I could [Graham:] Sub-directories... Er, yes, you could type er, back-slash back-slash put and then press enter, and it lists the sub-directories and you highlight that and press enter [cough] and then it would list where the files are in that directory, of course, I haven't got any, we've just created those directories. Erm, but then ev every time I wanted to retrieve a file from that directory, I'd have to type in that put and the ninety three and all the rest of it. How can I set it so that, soon as I do file retrieve, it lists the files from that directory? [speaker002:] Worksheet file directory. Put the name of the directory. [Graham:] Erm... [speaker002:] Not files, yeah the [Graham:] Well, [speaker002:] worksheet directory. [Graham:] You're almost right [speaker002:] Worksheet directory. [Graham:] Erm. The file directory. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] You do file... [speaker002:] Directory... [Graham:] Directory... [speaker002:] Yeah [Graham:] Here. So the display'll change the current directories. The current directories, gotta be this one. If I wanted to point at the put directory. Put ninety three. I type that in, press enter. And then if I do file retrieve [speaker002:] bring that up and [Graham:] it's listing files from that directory... [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] straight away. Sorry? [speaker002:] What I've done in the past, is erm, for file retrieve and then erm, on top of the original do a slash put and then enter, and that then gives me a sub-file. [Graham:] Basically, it lists the files on that directory, yes. You have to type put every time. Not like saying, if you do this file directory, type the put in, then er, you wouldn't have to type put in every time you retrieve the file, from the directory. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] Right. Let me just put the directory back to where it was. File... directory... right. Erm. So the advantage of pu putting your files in different directories, is you find things easily. One of the advantages. Probably some others as well here. As regards to various er other chores like deleting a set of files or copying a set of files, if you don't want the ninety three files any more... you just delete all the files in the directory. You don't have to pick out the ones that are ninety three, cos th they're all ninety three in that particular directory. Er, another thing that's useful to do, is to name your files in a particular way. Have a convention for how you name your files. So the maximum length of the file name is, is what?... [speaker002:] Eight... [Graham:] Eight characters, that's right. So you could use different characters of the file name to mean different things. Er, for example, the E A year as part of the file name, like eighty seven. Erm, you may well have got different directories, for the different years. It's not a good idea to include the year as part of the file name as well, because you might accidentally copy some files into the wrong directory. You might copy the ninety three file by accident into the ninety four directory. And if you've got the same file names, and you're doing a copy in DOS, you just overwrite them, and you overwrite the ninety four file with ninety three file there. But if each file has got a unique name, then that can't happen, so er, if you copy the all the files in that directory have got nine four as part of the file name, then if it's got nine three then, er, you won't be able to overwrite any files, you have two sets of files in there, and you can sort it out later on. Erm, in this particular spreadsheet system, there's a number of different files, for different departments. So I've got the department number. Just the two digit number in this example. There's the second and the third character of the file name. If it was a s single digit er, department, like department number six. I'd enter that as zero six. It always takes up the same number of positions in the file name, and that's useful as you shall see. Erm, I may have budget files, actual files, forecast files. There's a letter to indicate er, what that, er, is B for budget, A for actual, and F for forecasts. Er, the different types of files perhaps, there's a, maybe a payroll file, I have a P there, and I have a access file I have an A there. So, when you're looking for a file, you know you want, oh yes, it's for er department er thirty six er it's er payroll file, it's for nineteen ninety four and it's budget. Before you start looking for the file, you know what the file name is. So when yo you get a list of the file, you do a file retrieve, they're all listed in alphabetical order. You can, you alre can very quickly focus in on the one you're after, and you'd be sure that was the one, and you retrieve it and it's there. Very quickly. You don't have to retrieve any different files. Go searching through long lists of file names to find what you're after. So that's one advantage of having a naming convention. You find what you're looking for quickly. Erm, another advantage is erm, with various er chores, which is copying or deleting files. If I wanted to copy all of the department twenty two files to the, the A disk, the floppy disk. In DOS I could type copy space D twenty two star dot star to A. You familiar with these er the asterisks? What these mean? What does an asterisk mean? [speaker002:] The whole file. The whole, whatever's on that erm. Would be all D twenty two. [Graham:] It would have to begin D twenty two, and anything that follows erm... suppose you wanted to delete all the nineteen eighty seven files. What would you type in? In DOS. You type del, I'll give you that? Then what? [speaker002:] Star dot, Eighty seven. Eighty seven. Eighty seven. [Graham:] Sorry. Wh what eighty-seven? [speaker002:] Whatever it is, the department number, whatever. [Graham:] Well, it's all dif all different departments. Erm, eighty seven, then what? [speaker002:] Dot star dot star [Graham:] Star dot star. [speaker002:] you've delete your column eighty seven. [Graham:] Erm. Well, it says are you sure. What do you say? [speaker002:] No. [Graham:] [LAUGHTER] That's an honest answer. It's not what you normally do, is it? Er, most people, when they see a question like are you sure, they say, course I'm sure, yes. And er, that does delete all the nineteen eighty seven files, that's true. In fact, though, it deletes everything. It's the same as typing star dot star. Which you probably recognize as being everything. Says are you sure. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] Say yes, it deletes everything. So save yourself a bit of time like that. [LAUGHTER] And, so that's not quite right... [speaker002:] It deletes star dot eighty seven. [Graham:] Star dot eighty seven. Now as soon as you put the dot, what you're saying is erm, that's the extension. These are the last three characters and then into the extension,the they're probably going to be W K one. [speaker002:] Ta take the asterisk out. [Graham:] Er, in erm... you need to use another wildcard. Do you know any other wildcards other than an asterisk? [speaker002:] Question mark. [Graham:] Question mark. That's the one. Now what would you type then. Down [speaker002:] One, two, three, four, four questions marks eighty seven. [Graham:] Four question marks... eighty seven [speaker002:] Question mark. [Graham:] Can do a question mark, I suppose. I suppose in the year I needn't do a star, a star if you wanted to. Er, so what that question mark means is...

[Graham:] So certain things on testing. You're probably very proud of your masterpiece, and erm, there's ot there's the temptation to keep making minor improvements, just to make it a bit better. Er, but any change you make to a computer system, is likely to introduce bugs into the system, so that it doesn't give the right answers any more. Er, so you have to resist that temptation. If there's something that isn't working, there's a well known adage with computers, don't fix it. Erm, what you need to do is, if you can, save up all the changes, for one batch and then do them all together. Cos there's economy to scale on, first economy is the scale on understanding the system. Before you can make changes to the system, you have to understand it, and that takes an awful long time. Er, so there's economy to scale on that, and there's the economy to scale on testing too. If you have to test... an something, then there's economy to scale if you test the ten things instead of one.... Erm, when you start testing, you shouldn't input the real numbers, to start with. You shouldn't start with nice simple constant numbers, maybe thousands all the way across, cos the eye's very good at detecting irregular patterns, and when you put nice simple numbers in, the eye can see these irregular patterns clearly, and highlighting errors. On this spreadsheet here, I haven't input my s constant round numbers. [cough] If you look at that spreadsheet, then nothing seems wrong with that, seems okay. seems wrong certainly. But if I put nice round numbers in, the green cells are the input cells. Thousand across all the columns here, erm, nice round numbers input elsewhere. Then most of the, the rows also come out with nice round numbers, except this one row here, stands out. Numbers look a bit odd there. I'll have to investigate. So you start with nice, you may then change one or two of the numbers, to check various aspects. You start with nice constant round simple numbers. There's all sorts of ex it's probably impractical to test every single cell. You have to concentrate too on extremes, the first and the last in a row or a column. Erm, there's no many different aspects of two extremes. Does anybody here write spreadsheets for other people to use? So it's solely for your own use. If you write a spreadsheet for somebody else, you might be using a sixty six megahertz four eight six duel processor erm, spaceship, and, somebody is using a steam driven I B M A T or something, and it runs quite acceptably on your machine, a reasonable speed, and you give it to somebody else on that steam driven thing, and it takes ages to do anything, and er, you press a button and they wait half an hour... sort of thing. This happened to you... some way or other? You need to research into this, don't you? But it's given you a spreadsheet it takes ages to load it [speaker002:] even load it. [Graham:] So, there's that to consider as well if you're writing spreadsheets for other people. Erm. When you finish testing, well, as you test you start off with simple numbers and you then start changing some of the numbers, to test other aspects, and eventually you're happy that everything seems to be working alright. Now, what you probably do is just reset all the input cells back to zero. Erm, and you lose that test data set. It's a good idea to keep that test data, because later on, you're almost certainly going to make changes and you'll therefore need to re-test the system, and a quick way to re-test the system is to put all that test data in again and see if you get the same answers. And if you don't, then you can see very quickly what's gone wrong, and probably where it's gone wrong, as well. So, keep that test data set. That's another good reason for keeping all your inputs in a separate area. It then makes it easy to save all your inputs into a separate file, when they're all in one separate input area. If you've got them scattered about all over the place, it makes it much more difficult to try and save them, and, later on, get the data back in. It's very easy to do all in one separate area combine and put the test data file back in again, but very difficult when scattered about. Erm, said that. No matter how erm, simple or small a change you're making, you'll probably think oh, that's bound to work, no need to test that, such a simple change. You'd be surprised. You have to test every single thing. Now even if you test things thoroughly as you're building your spreadsheets, then it's quite possible that something you do later on affects something you do earlier on. So, you need to go back when you finish the whole system, and test everything again. Erm, but you won't remember all the things to test, as you forget very quickly, so as you're building the spreadsheet, you ought to write down a list of things you're going to go back and test. Sorry. that's a point testing certain aspects. It'll often pay to think about er, the order in which you test. Because if yo if you got to the end of testing and then you found an error, you might have to go all the way back to the beginning again, because what it affects affects something that you did earlier on, so you have to go back and test everything again. But if you thought about the order that you test, then, if something doesn't work, you may only have to go back a few steps and re-test. When do you enter? Yeah, well, that's a fact of life for the boasts out. I suppose you might a very simple spreadsheet, then er, just adding up a column of numbers is hardly get that wrong. Er, that's true. But then there are underlying boasts in One Two Three and in DOS and a certain rare combination of circumstances, it's possible that. It's highly unlikely that summing up a single column of numbers. But it's possible. This could be certain circumstances, and there are, when you get the wrong answer. That column of numbers. If you knew what the combination of circumstances were, then you could perhaps re-do your spreadsheet with a different way to avoid it. But, er, you're not going to know all bugs that there are in the software. But having said that, if the something doesn't work. Well, human nature being what it is, then erm, you're likely to blame Lotus. So oh, Lotus is not working properly. But ninety nine times out of a hundred, it's your spreadsheet that's at fault. You had this experience before? Blamed it on Lotus. Test, er, documenting in the next topic. The same reasons as er, testing, er, you ought to do it as you go. Because if you come back later on, and try and document your spreadsheets, then an awful lot is forgotten. So you have to spend time or time to re-understand what you were doing before you can document it properly. When I write a system for a client, then I do the documentation in advance... of writing the system. Erm,an another advantage of doing that is, it ensures that you do in other things, which is design a system. Nobody documents the spreadsheets. Nobody designs the system. People just jump straight in, do the first bit, erm, having done the first bit, they then think about how they're gonna fit in the next bit, and you end up with a rambling mess that er, doesn't fit together, doesn't work together too well. If you plan things as in most in life, if you plan ahead, you can actually er, do it a lot quicker. And that certainly applies to building computer systems. Planning ahead, building your spreadsheets. You probably end up writing the system file quicker, and have a much simpler system which also maintain in far less time. You can also have far less errors etcetera. So, if you do the documentation in advance in the documentation... yeah, in the documentation, I explain what spreadsheets there are, where things are on the spreadsheets, the various procedures for how to do certain things. You do this, this, this, go here and there, and go there, do that and so on. You've actually thought through exactly erm, how the spreadsheet is going to be designed. Er, now certain documentation are very valuable. One of those is the spreadsheet map. It's a bird's eye view as to where everything is on the spreadsheet. So this is the whole spreadsheet, and erm, these green boxes within the spreadsheet, are the different areas within the spreadsheet. Erm, so in the top left of this spreadsheet I've got some documentation, below that some blank rows, a key parameter section here. Below that to the right, is some imported data, and so on. So I know where things are on the spreadsheets. And not only that, I've written some text on the spreadsheet showing the process that's going on. So the first thing that happens is data gets er, imported into the spreadsheet here, and second thing that could happen is er, the unwanted records get deleted. Step three, is something called run flags, so something specific to this spreadsheet gets extracted, and so on. So I've got a good idea what's going on on that spreadsheet, what's on it, where it is, and what's happen what happens in the processes. They're very useful pieces of documentation. As I was saying before, the most important thing to understand is the overview. Once you understand the overview, you can start to work your way, and understand the individual detail. Er, it's a good idea to got documentation actually on the spreadsheet itself, because then it doesn't go missing. [cough] I'll put the file name, the date, and time, that's what we were talking about before. If you want a file naming convention, you might want to explain the different elements of the file name. Erm, if you're responsible, you might want to put your name down, if you're the creator of this spreadsheet. You probably don't want to do this, I would imagine. But anybody who inherits your spreadsheet in the future erm [phone rings]... Anybody who inherits your spreadsheet in the future may want to understand something about it, so you're obviously going to be a good source of providing that information. Or there's anybody in your own organization who is responsible name the PCs and the files etcetera may want to know, is this your file. Do you want to delete it or whatever. It might be useful to know who was doing that. Erm, even if you inherit some spreadsheets from this person that's left, that's useful knowledge because you don't have to spend time searching for whoever might have created this spreadsheet. [speaker002:] Erm, this is a general method spreadsheet that Harlow's code handled it applications and department say that erm, [Graham:] Did you hear that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] She had to stay here to midnight. [LAUGHTER] [cough] Right, erm. So, er, what the description was there by the way, it's not meant to be a description of the person. What it is, is this thing that follows, is that any changes you make, any modifications are likely sources of problems. If... somebody calls you up and says something's not working, always ask, well what did you change recently, and ninety five percent of the time, it's that that's the cause of the problems. The that they changed recently. So you want to make a note of what's changed, so when you make a change, who made it,. A description of the change. Why does this spreadsheet exist? So that's an important thing to know. What's the overall purpose of this spreadsheet? So here is some text explaining that. On this slide I've kept the text pretty small, because stays on this line, but er, you've got more text than I've got there, to explain the purpose of this spreadsheet. and very importantly is er, a list of instructions on how to use it, in order to erm, update it for the current month. You do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this. To do some other tasks, you do this, this, this, this and this and so on. So you have a list of procedures for erm, what you have to do, and this one will certainly be very useful to anyone else, who's going to use the spreadsheet. But it's also useful for yourself, because you can forget a couple of steps, even though you've built this spreadsheet, and er, when you update this spreadsheet for the following months, you know, occasionally you might forget a step. Well, it's like you check the lists, you can quickly, even if you think you remembered it, [cough] you can still quickly read through to see whether you've done all those different things, and you do sometimes forget, so it's useful for that as well. Er, if you were writing a written article, then you may well include references, or sources of information that, that help you write that article. Same way on your broad spreadsheets, you may include sources of references, mainly people that you've spoken to, that provided you information. Maybe various manuals, such as the Lotus manual. You may be using some particular part in the spreadsheet that you consider to be unusual, er you may want to include a page reference, so that er, [phone rings] you can understand it again... [speaker002:] [phonecall starts] Hello, yeah, yeah, I'll get him to call you back, then, bye, bye [telephone conversation ends]. [Graham:] Er, then... then it, when you're looking at the back, unusual part of the Lotus again, you know which page of the manual to go, or all of the help screens. Tells somebody how to get to particular help screens or people often have difficulty finding things on the help screens, so, some instructions for where to find a particular piece of information on the help screens can be useful. You can create a basic form of map on the spreadsheet. In fact the whizzy-wig, whenever you use it, you don't have to actually draw a diagram, that map that we just saw with boxes and arrows and things, you could draw that on the spreadsheet with the whizzy-wig. On a text spreadsheet though, you can't draw things, but er, you could use some letters positioned roughly where the different parts of the spreadsheet are. So you could, you could create a crude form of map on the spreadsheet, particularly on a text spreadsheet like this. Good idea to have a list of all the file names, cos er, you may want to copy this system to some other computer. But you you'll probably, I would imagine, over a period of time, put a number of extra files in that directory that you're going to need. So identify which of the files you need, er, would be useful, so that's what this would do. [speaker002:] Sorting them [Graham:] Okay. Thanks very much, and if you er were to er, accidentally lose some files, you would know which files have gone missing. Er, another useful piece of documentation, is a diagram listing all the files that you've got in your system. So there's a box for each file, and there's a flow of data from one file to another, a little arrow showing how the data passes from one file to another. Er, it'd be a good idea to also write the file names. These are just the descriptions, but the file names would be useful to appear on those ends of those boxes as well. And if you were to write a manual, er, though that's probably unlikely for most of you. Basically, if you write a manual for somebody else to use, then er... there's a standard layout of manuals, computer manuals, that is to have a Getting Started section, tells you how to instal in... some of the basics like how to start it running, erm, the How To section is very important. The procedures and how to do certain, certain tasks. You ever used a Lotus manual? [speaker002:] No. [Graham:] A lot of people don't. Never seen it most people, I don't think. Er, but they have a lot of steps on how to do things. You do this, this, this and this. For all sorts of different tasks. So that's probably the most important part of the manual. Er, with reference section, perhaps describes all parts of the system, and the index is very useful, even though it's only a dozen pages long, your manual. So if you're looking for something, [cough] bit of a pain having to wade through half a dozen pages, if you can go to the index and then jump directly to the relevant page, and then save you a bit of time. On most modern word processing software, it makes it very easy to create an index. Ho who uses any word processing software. What software do you use? [speaker002:] Couple Playwrite. [Graham:] Playwrite. I'm not sure I'd call that modern word processing. Does that cre create indexes for you? [speaker002:] No. [Graham:] Not that you're aware. Oh, right. Okay. It it's that what you're used to... [speaker002:] No Word for Windows [Graham:] Word, Word for Windows, which certainly is, that is a modern word processing package, right. Er, er, any questions on that. Er, have a quick revision, then our final test... Oh, right, okey-doke, alright, thanks very much. Bye-bye. [speaker002:] See you, Bobbie Bye. Bye, Bobbie. Cheerio. Have a nice weekend. Thank you very much.... [revision] [Graham:] Did you want to go on this side? So the last time we had a break was er, well, actually, we didn't do the useful formulae, did we, last time? So we can include that in it.... Right, are you ready?... Right, I think it's the left turn to go first. Erm, if you got er, a label in B three and another label in B four. How do you enter a formula that joins them together? [speaker002:] Plus B three ampersand B four. [Graham:] Right, good. [speaker002:] Right. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Er, if you got a, a number in one of the cells that you're joining. You got a label in one cell and a number in another cell, you want to formally join the two together, er, what's the formula?... [speaker002:] ... B three B four. [Graham:] B three B four? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] So the number is B four, let's say. Yes, it is. That's right... plus... [speaker002:] do you think B three... [Graham:] B three, B four's got the number. [speaker002:] plus B three, erm... and you got a brackets, that way and erm, B four has the at stream... [Graham:] At stream, yeah. [speaker002:] Open brackets... no, at stream, open brackets... [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] B four [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Close brackets. [Graham:] Oh, yeah, er, give you half for that. Put it across to this side, you know the question [speaker002:] Never done it before. [Graham:] You didn't get it quite right... [speaker002:] The brain [Graham:] [LAUGHTER] There would be a plus in front of the... ampersand... comma zero you missed th the ampersand [speaker002:] Ah. [Graham:] now string B four comma zero four no decimals. Okey-doke. Er, over to the left, erm... if you're using file combine copy to copy data across, and you want to copy both numbers and er, labels. There may be some formulae, but you don't want the formulae, how do you do it, the file combine copy. What do you do? There's three steps, I want. [speaker002:] Well, the way I'd always done it before was, change it to value, before I combined it. But then you [Graham:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. When you got [Graham:] three steps. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, is, is it range value. [Graham:] Ah, well that's one of the steps... [cough] [speaker002:] you've had it and you combine A [Graham:] Ah, well that's another method. I'm saying, if you're using file combine copy, because you want numbers as well as labels... Yes, that's the first step, put it on manual... [speaker002:] Then you do file combine... [Graham:] Then you do the file combine, yeah... [speaker002:] And then you do the... range copy range value... [Graham:] You do range value, do you? Er, and how do you do the range value? [speaker002:] added value to the field that you're into the field that you are in. You copy it into the field that you're already in. [Graham:] You copy it to itself. Okay, you can now try. Yes, yeah, there you go. Er, range. Erm... what's the disadvantage of the, the extract method? That is er saving a range from the prompt file, using extract, and then going into the other file and doing a file combine in that extracted file. What's the disadvantage of that method? [speaker002:] It on things. the extracted file take it to the combined product. [Graham:] Yes, you er, change the from file, and you save it, but then you forget to do the extract. Th that's the, the risk with it. That's the same problem with your method, by the way. If you use range on the from file to copy it, you may change that file, save and forget to range value to a different range. Right, okey- doke, over to the left. Erm, what doesn't file combine add to copy?... [speaker002:] Sorry? [Graham:] What doesn't file combine add, copy. [speaker002:] Labels. [Graham:] Labels, is one thing. There's two things. [speaker002:] Erm Formulas. Formulas. [Graham:] Formulas, that's it. It doesn't copy labels. Or whatever. Right, the other side. Er, if you create a file linking formulae... in One Two Three Release Two, erm, when you retrieve a file that contains [cough] the file with the formulae, er, does it update the file links, as you retrieve it?... That's the question. Yeah, when you retrieve it, does it update the file links automatically, or do you have to do something to make it update? [speaker002:] Update it manual. Yeah, I thought you did... [Graham:] Yes, why I am asking you... or I did I say... [speaker002:] it does automatic but it wasn't.... Isn't that right? [Graham:] Yeah, well that's right... [speaker002:] therefore it was on automatic. [Graham:] Yes, that's right. It is automatic, in Release Two, but it's not in Release Three, that was the other question. Never mind. [speaker002:] Oh, sorry [LAUGHTER] two part mistakes. [Graham:] Across to the er, the left, erm, can you erm, create a file linking formula, that links not just one cell, but a whole range of cells. So you create a range name in the from file that covers [cough] a range of that say ten cells. Erm, does that work? [speaker002:] No. You can only do one... [Graham:] Yes, you only link one cell to one cell. That's right. Okey- doke. Erm, in One Two Three Release Three, erm, when you retrieve a file, it doesn't it doesn't automatically update a file. Er, give me two methods of updating... the linking formulae in Release Three or Four. Two methods. [speaker002:] Does it... [Graham:] Er, in One Two Three Release Three and Four, it doesn't update the, the linking formulae, when you retrieve the file. Er, give me two methods... for, for how you can update the linking formulae?... [speaker002:] Would it [Graham:] No. I'll pass it across. Over here One method? No. No, the one method was to open the other file, the on the prompt file and the two files. You had both files in memory and automatically updates. Yeah. And the other method was to go to the menus and choose, file, admin link refresh. Alright. Erm, over to the er, left erm... how do you make a directory? [speaker002:] Go into DOS first. Into DOS. [Graham:] I want to create a directory called put off the root directory. Go into DOS, right. [speaker002:] Go into DOS backslash C D. [Graham:] Backslash... [speaker002:] C D when you can do anything, anything [Graham:] Right. So what d how do I make a directory put, then... [speaker002:] M D backslash [Graham:] Right. Fine. the root directory. Okey-doke. Er, over to the right. [cough] One Two Three and you want to change the current directory, to point at this directory, put. What do you do? [speaker002:] backslash directory I think you can just type in file. [Graham:] Yes, file directory, I'll put there then. Okey-doke. Over to the other side, erm. How do you delete all files that have two two in positions three and four, of the file name? [speaker002:] Delete space question make, question mark, what was it? Two two [Graham:] Er, twenty two. [speaker002:] Twenty two, asterisk dot asterisk. [Graham:] Yeah. That's it. The other side. [speaker002:] Sorry. Only occasionally. [Graham:] Erm, when you start testing your spreadsheets, what er, type of numbers should you input? [speaker002:] Even or round numbers. Round numbers. [Graham:] Nice ro that's one aspect of it, yes. Round numbers. what do you call a round number? [speaker002:] A hundred. [Graham:] A hundred, yeah, okey-doke. Erm, one aspect... [speaker002:] golden rule [Graham:] That's it. Yes, that's without a consistent across all [cough] there. Good. Well done. Er, right, over to the other side. Erm, What's an advantage of having your inputs in a separate area, for the purpose of view testing? Erm, what's the advantage of having your inputs in an separate area from the view of testing? [speaker002:] You can use them again, if you're re-testing. [Graham:] Yes. Aw use it again, er, yes, can you say a bit more? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What do you want me to change? a bit more. [Graham:] Er, you could use them again, that's true, but you could do anywhere, I suppose them again but er, [speaker002:] But that's why you never put them you put them in numbers. [Graham:] And that means? Sorry? [speaker002:] Save them. Save them, extract, yes. [Graham:] You can save them more easily, than when they're scattered about. Yeah, you can do that. Right, okey-doke. Over to the to the right, erm, give me er three very important parts of the computer documentation? [speaker002:] the design specifications, is that what you mean? [Graham:] That's wa that's the overall thing you're talking about is it? No,t the actual... main parts of the documentation. [speaker002:] Who wrote the spreadsheet. [Graham:] Because that's detail really, er, I was looking for the main parts. [speaker002:] What, on the spreadsheet or design the spreadsheet. [Graham:] Er, off or on the spreadsheet. [speaker002:] Sort of like, things like, if you've got a, if contents spreadsheet, where it comes from, what files [Graham:] Er, well, you used, well, you're getting a bit more detailed, but wh what is that thing? Sorry? [speaker002:] cleared out... having cleared directory [Graham:] Clear directory. No, perhaps my question was too vague. I wa wanted sort of major pieces of documentations of the individual details on that documentation schedule, major bits. [speaker002:] The input area. The report to calculations. [Graham:] Oh, no that's... I guess I'll just have to rephrase my question. Er. Well, what's a spreadsheet map? [LAUGHTER] That's another question. [LAUGHTER] What do you put on a spreadsheet map? That's one of the important of the documentation. [speaker002:] and then it then it goes down... Yeah, then it goes down to to orgies or whatever [LAUGHTER] what they are [LAUGHTER] has any of that worked? [Graham:] I don't know, somebody's spreadsheets [speaker002:] That's three things that are in there. [Graham:] So wh how do you, what's on the map? [speaker002:] Erm, come on. you've got squares... [Graham:] You've got squares... [speaker002:] You've got writing. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] what the lines what the lines showing... [speaker002:] Showing the cells... the different cells. [Graham:] Shows you, yeah, you got boxes showing you where things are on the spreadsheets, and you got some tags saying what those are. You got arrows showing flow of data. What else do you have on the spreadsheets? [speaker002:] Erm, the name of what the, what the erm, spreadsheet looks like. [Graham:] Er, not in that, well, there might be on that, but er, but that there what resources are on the spreadsheet. On that batch. How are things that were numbered one, two, three, four, five, six... [speaker002:] Oh, extra process. [Graham:] Yes, extra processes that are going on. I'll give you er, four for that. [LAUGHTER] well, you didn't get the rest of the question at all. Erm, what... give me erm, give me erm, seven things yeah, seven things to put on this spreadsheet. Seven pieces of documentation actually on this spreadsheet. [speaker002:] Amendment [Graham:] That's one, yes. [speaker002:] Date. What the amendment was. [Graham:] The date. [speaker002:] The date, time, file name. [Graham:] Date, time, file name. Yes, that's two. [speaker002:] Who created it. [Graham:] Sorry, who created it. Yes, that's three. [speaker002:] Run instructions. [Graham:] Run instructions. Yes, that's four. [speaker002:] What it's for. [Graham:] Yes, the purpose of it, that's five. [speaker002:] File names. [Graham:] Had that one. [speaker002:] The date it's been and updated. [Graham:] We had that one. [speaker002:] Who updated it. What it [Graham:] We had that one. [speaker002:] References. [Graham:] I suppose you could, but it's not one of the things I had listed. Did somebody say references? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] What did you mean? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Who do you talk to if you need any information. [Graham:] Oh yes, that's right, yes reference. That's the right thing. Six. One more... [speaker002:] Give us a clue. [Graham:] I've just talked about it. [speaker002:] Who to talk to? [Graham:] Sorry? We've just talked about it in this room. The other thing. [speaker002:] the map. [Graham:] The map. That's it. [speaker002:] Well done, [Graham:] Shall I give them that? [speaker002:] That's a quarter. Quarter. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] I'll give you that, yeah. Right, over to the right, erm... erm, give me another important piece of documentation. Map was one... [speaker002:] The invoice. [Graham:] The invoice. I'll pass it across. [speaker002:] created How about the user manual? [Graham:] Well, yes, er well... that's one I was after. There's two pieces that are missing. Not including the user manuals. Can't give you that one. [LAUGHTER] Two other useful pieces of documentation. [speaker002:] What amount. [Graham:] No, he he's said that one before. [speaker002:] Is there a design document? [Graham:] Well, may well be, but er, I wasn't after that... Has anybody think of anything? We only did it er, seven minutes ago, it shows you how quickly you forget. Er, list of the file names, that's one of them, and one of them, open this to everybody, anybody who can get it, gets a point. [blowing nose] [speaker002:] What directories in it. [Graham:] No, well, maybe, but er, it wasn't what I was after. [speaker002:] updated modifications... [Graham:] Er, well, that's part of what's on the spreadsheet, It's some sort of diagram. Sorry? Not exactly, well, not exactly Diagram representing the things that are in the system... [speaker002:] folders [Graham:] Files is that what you said? [speaker002:] I said folders actually [LAUGHTER] Yeah, files. [LAUGHTER] Well, you already got one [Graham:] Well, I don't think anybody got it really. There was too many. So let's see, the left got seven, that's nine, and the right got er, three, four [speaker002:] Who's that for? [Graham:] Right, thank you all very much for having formulas now.

[Martin:] I've got your form here somewhere [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] and erm... I, it tells me what you wanted to talk about. Yes. Erm... oh that's right. You're third year English aren't you? [Lente:] Yeah, that's right. [Martin:] Yeah. Okay. And er oh you er it's social work you're interested in is it? [Lente:] Yes. [Martin:] Yes. Erm... okay. [whispering] Yeah []. [reading] Can I get on a postgrad two year course next year []? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You mean to apply now for autumn? [Lente:] Yes. I think that's very optimistic really. [Martin:] Well, and what experience have you got? [Lente:] Not very much. I mean I, I, I took er a gap year out in Birmingham working for a church. [Martin:] Oh I see. [Lente:] Er [Martin:] And what did you actually do? [Lente:] Well it was called a Discipleship Training course erm [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] so a lot of it was teaching. Erm but the relevant [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] bits to this would be erm I ran er a youth group in Ladywood which was er central Birmingham. [Martin:] Oh yes. [Lente:] And er we did a couple of weeks erm teaching in schools and we helped run a erm a lunching club for old people. [Martin:] Oh yes. [Lente:] But the, the, probably the relevant thing would be the youth, the youth work. Erm... [Martin:] Yes. Y what did you do on the youth work side? [Lente:] Well we... it was run from a local church but erm [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] the... the fairly elderly couple which, who started [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] the work up erm [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] he was ill or something or going away and erm er the church we were working for was invited to take it over. [Martin:] Oh I see, yes. [Lente:] And er so we were the kind of... erm the team who were there the, at the time so [Martin:] And [Lente:] a couple of us took it on. [Martin:] did you sort of play table tennis with them, or what [LAUGHTER] did you do []? [Lente:] Well that I mean that t to get them in yeah that's the sort of thing we started with erm playing pool and er table tennis and that. [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] Erm [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] and then we went up to more interactive things. We had... I mean you couldn't do that much but it was [Martin:] No. [Lente:] you know a ten, fifteen minute discussion and stuff like that. [Martin:] On... what sort of topics? [Lente:] On r on religious topics mostly. [Martin:] Oh I see, yes. [Lente:] I mean we did you know stuff like erm er... what's the one I did? Are, are Christians boring. Erm [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] [Lente:] you know sort of thing like that. [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] I see []. So, so you weren't really doing anything on... their sort of personal development or their social... problems or, you know, could they get jobs or could they get work or what were the pressures on them, how... [Lente:] No. [Martin:] how did they... sort of cope with their relationships or anything like that? [Lente:] No. I mean th we did er [Martin:] No. [Lente:] we talked informally about erm their [Martin:] Oh. [Lente:] relationships and things like that cos that was [Martin:] Oh right, yeah. [Lente:] the sort of thing that cropped up. [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] I mean there was nothing on a, on a formal level or anything [Martin:] No. [Lente:] like that welfare [Martin:] No. [Lente:] or jobs or anything like that. [Martin:] No. So I mean it doesn't, I mean, I mean the point about social work erm... you know doing... er some experience is I think so that you actually experience the erm... sort of so the, the group dynamics of people who are in trouble and can't cope. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And I, that's why I was wondering... er how much you did on that front really. [Lente:] Yeah, I mean that... par apart from the youth and I've done some at home as well erm [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] ... the only other relevant [Martin:] Not much. [Lente:] thing would be [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] erm... er holiday... schools work. [Martin:] Oh yes? Yeah. [Lente:] Which I've done since I was sixteen. [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] Erm... but that was just group leader stuff really. Erm but... no I ne I need erm to get on a voluntary placement next year probably. [Martin:] I think you probably [Lente:] But [Martin:] do, yeah. Yeah. [Lente:] but erm I don't know what sort of thing wou would get me the best experience. [Martin:] Well the thi one thing you could do is go and talk to... one or two admissions tutors of the social work... courses. I mean there is one here of course. [Lente:] Right, yeah. [Martin:] And you could go over to... erm the Social Work Department in and try and you know get an interview with the admissions person. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm and... say you know, what sort of... idea, you know, what would you think would be good experience? I mean I think it might be good if before you did that you could try and explore a bit on your own and, and have some idea but I mean [Lente:] Yeah, sure. [Martin:] in a sense, when you've done that, er it's a good thing to check it out. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm [Lente:] Well I've, I've got a couple of applications on the go. I mean I've got erm seven, well. [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] [Lente:] But there's one [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] er... erm it was in the Church of England Newspaper of erm... [Martin:] Mm. Mm. [Lente:] er there's a place in Dover which, which'll be a residential thing for a year. [Martin:] Ah. [Lente:] Erm [Martin:] That sounds... what, what sort of... er people have they got there? [Lente:] That's, that's erm adults with erm learning disabilities. [Martin:] Oh I see, yes. [Lente:] Erm or there's, there'll be... the other one er... [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] I've got contacts with is [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] SHAD erm working in London with erm a placement with someone with a disability working [Martin:] Oh yes? [Lente:] forty eight hours on with them and then forty eight hours off. [Martin:] Oh I see. [Lente:] And that's [Martin:] Now what's SHAD? That's Single... [Lente:] Erm... I can't remember what [Martin:] no. [Lente:] the exact acronym is. [Martin:] No. What sort of people are there? I mean er [Lente:] Erm well there're all sorts of er range groups but [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] erm it's mostly physically handicapped people. [Martin:] Oh I see. Yes. [Lente:] Erm [Martin:] Well it might be good. Erm... er is er now does that have a religious basis, SHAD, or [Lente:] SHAD doesn't, no. [Martin:] No. [Lente:] Erm the one in Dover does, [Martin:] Does, yes. [Lente:] but it's not... erm er it was, it's welfare based rather than [Martin:] Yes, I see. I mean I, I don't know how you feel about it but it might be a good thing... to do something that was not religious based, erm [Lente:] Yes, definitely. [Martin:] ... y you know, just to get in with er a different sort of group of people with different sort of motivations and so on, [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] erm to show you know you have the broader erm experience. I mean hav have you looked at our Alternative Opportunities section out there, or [Lente:] Erm... [Martin:] That's the yellow files. [Lente:] that's the yellow files. [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] Yeah I did I did go through it. [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] I've taken a [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] f erm a couple [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] of addresses down. [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] But there there wasn't, mm, well there was nothing that seemed immediately er relevant I must say, but [Martin:] No. I mean you've not looked at er a lot of the mental health stuff? I mean er people like the Richmond Fellowship, or... did you, you didn't find them? [Lente:] No. [Martin:] Maybe you don't actually, don't want to do mental [Lente:] I don't [Martin:] health, or [Lente:] well, I don't know. Erm but... [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] I'm not really sure what, what I'm looking for. [Martin:] No. What, do you have any idea what sort of social work... you would want to do in the end, or not really? [Lente:] Erm... well, I had a look at probation which is a a different [Martin:] Oh yes? [Lente:] but similar avenue I suppose, [Martin:] Yeah. Mm. Mm. [Lente:] erm but there, there are elements of that which come into social work, I would have thought. [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] Erm... er young off w work with young offenders or something like that. Erm [Martin:] Yes. Yes. I mean there are broad categories you see in a sense. I mean certainly the social services now divide up a bit. I mean... er you know the, the, the erm... training is supposed to be a generic training so that you learn the various erm ways of coping with clients you know, and it [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] doesn't matter whether they're ninety five or... you know sixteen, there are [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] certain sort of listening skills and er erm the, the idea that you, you've got to get erm people to look at the things maybe they don't want to look at [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] but in a positive way, and those sorts of things will obviously apply whatever group you're dealing with. But on the other hand I think the erm social work is now going... back again to a situation where it's really rather more specialized. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Certainly I know, somebody I know who works with North Yorkshire, they seem to have divided up into the... old and the young. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm so you've either got you know the, the, the sort of or the old people, or you've got the young people, and that reaches back down the age range into things like child abuse which is now, you know, very er much er on the agenda. Erm... so I mean I think, you know, it might be useful, well, in some ways it would be very useful for you to have erm two sort of six month stints in rather different environments so that then you'd sort of keep your options open a bit. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm if you were interested in probation then maybe you could get work in a probation hostel... er you know as, as some sort of er assistant. Unqualified helper or something. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Erm which would give you some contact with erm, er you know people who'd er... er just come out of prison or, or you know had been serving some sort of sentence or other, you know, maybe not a custodial one or something. Erm... but that might be interesting. I mean I'm sure if you asked erm... you know the probation service... people in York, I'm sure they could, well I mean if you're thinking about probation, you probably ought to go in and look, unless you've already [Lente:] Yeah, sure. [Martin:] ... done so, I mean and as part of that you could... ask questions about whether, you know there might be some longer-term... placement you could do or something. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Erm... so I mean that might be... worth it. Would you do this erm... I suppose if you, well I don't know, it depends whether it's residential or not. You you'd be... erm quite happy to do residential... [Lente:] Yes. [Martin:] would you? Mm.... I think that's good because I think most of it probably is residential. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm and of course you get... erm you know a rather more intense... sort of experience I think if you do that. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm I mean it's not what everybody wants but erm I think it is quite er interesting. I mean the, the Richmond Fellowship things are quite interesting. They've got sort of mind you they have their own training sort of regime as well, which in some ways is, means it's quite good experience because it is... structured in, in a, in a... way to give you some training, whereas of course if you just go in to do a job then erm how much... sort of training you get varies a bit. I mean one would hope you got some wherever you [LAUGHTER] went [] you know, [Lente:] Mm, sure. [Martin:] er but sometimes you don't get very much. Erm and if there is erm... a sort of definite regime then that, that may be quite good. I mean it depends... er whether you're in a... fearful hurry to start the training... you know,t and get [Lente:] Erm [Martin:] qualified. I mean erm... [Lente:] No I don't think, no I'm not in a fearful hurry. It's just... I've, I've done three years at university now and I, I [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []. [Lente:] ... and it's, it's a subject which I've enjoyed doing a lot, English, [Martin:] Right. Yeah. [Lente:] erm but it's, it's had n you know no vocational direction whatsoever, [Martin:] Right. Yeah. [Lente:] and erm... er i now er now I want to... I don't mind training again but it, it's got to be vocational. [Martin:] Right. Yes. [Lente:] And so... erm... the, the experience in w the work experience I get now I want to be with a, a definite view to get to, get in training [Martin:] Right. Yes. [Lente:] in order to get [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] ... a job. [Martin:] Yes I see. Yes, what I really meant was I'm, I... forget exactly but we could look it up in... you know the Richmond Fellowship file out there, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and they've got quite a big place at Harrogate where you could go for a day or two to observe what was going on and so on. Now I think, if I remember rightly, they had a sort of two year... sort of training pattern, [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] which you do, and then you're er you know in their eyes you're, you're sort of trained to some sort of level for their sort of work. Now that's n not the same thing as the... the erm study year you know, the [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] social work qualification but, erm, on the other hand... you know it's a structured sort of and therefore you get, you know, there'd be reviews and all this sort of thing, and therefore you'd get something out of it. Erm it's just that er and I don't suppose you need to stay two years if you don't want to. I mean if it was working... well then maybe you'd stay an extra year and... sort of finish it off but [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm if, if you know you, you felt you wanted to go off and do th start the professional social work training well that would probably be alright. Erm I think too of course the thing about probation to go back to that, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] is that you have to be accepted by the Home Office as well as the erm you know particular institution running the course. I d I don't mean that's er er a terribly difficult thing but it is just that that does have to happen. [Lente:] Right. Er that [Martin:] Erm. [Lente:] whe what sort of thing are you talking about? I about past criminal offences and stuff? [Martin:] Oh no. No I think it's, well I mean yes presumably. I mean I [Lente:] Well [Martin:] don't think they like... [Lente:] Well I haven't got, well I got stopped [Martin:] No no. [Lente:] for not having my lights [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] on my bike once but er [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Well [LAUGHTER] no I don't I don't think that's too serious []. [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] No it, it wasn't really that,i it was erm although I'm sure they do... check that. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But, well I think they check that sort of thing for social workers don't they? [Lente:] Yeah they do, yeah I read that yeah. [Martin:] Cos they... have to be very careful, especially with this abuse... [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] business you see that, er anyway, erm... no, I think it's more that the Home Office want to be satisfied that you're the sort of person who will make a good probation officer. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Erm pardon? [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] W er yeah, yeah. I mean er they don't... I, I think it's more like an interview you know... er really, where they w they will be trying to assess your suitability as well as the actual institution that's going to give you the course. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] So you've got two of these sort of sessions er er to go through, that's really the only point. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Erm and... I mean I'm not too sure, you'd probably need to ask the probation people, what specific things they were looking for, but I suppose the probation service, I mean you are an officer of the court, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm which means there is a sort of er disciplinary er sort of element in it. I mean I suppose there is in all social work in a sense, that if you go in to look at a family and, and you're trying to assess... you know whether the children should be taken into care, well you're exercising a... a sort of statutory erm... er sort of responsibility, and as far as the clients are concerned, er if you, like that can sort of get in the way of er... er a more human sort of relationship if you see what I mean, because [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you know, in the one case you're, you're the representative of court the probation... erm officer and they know that if they break the probation or you sort of erm do a bad report on them, maybe they've got a suspended or something and they'll, so you know there's a, and, and you somehow have to handle that [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] so that it doesn't alienate the person... and, and, and they regard you as a, you know and that's actually probably quite tricky, except of course that you can't just let them off, because you [LAUGHTER] are actually [] an officer of the court. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You see what I mean? And er probably they'd be interested to know how you would sort of handle that. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Erm and er the, I suspect, I mean there are probably as many answers to that as there are [LAUGHTER] probation officers []. Er but it's a particular problem for probation, you know? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm... and the, the social work thing has also something of that. You know, if the erm... that if the family think you're going to actually take the child off them because they're not looking after it properly, then I mean obviously they're not perhaps going to be as frank with you as they might otherwise. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And you know that may hamper you in really reaching a decision about... erm... the real nature of the relationship they've got with the child.... So you know there are some quite interesting... sort of angles [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] ... erm... mm. But basically I think most courses now, not sure there's actually a legal requirement, I don't think it is, but most of them want a at least a year's sort of full time... experience in erm, you know,d dealing with underprivileged people really and their problems and people who can't cope for one reason or another, and how... er y you can er er sort of help them and what sort of relationship you can build with them and so on, and how [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you feel about it and all that. And then you can talk about all that in the interview, about your motivation as to why you want to do the... job you see? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And, and probably you pick up some of the language used to describe this, you know. [Lente:] Yeah.... But erm [Martin:] mm. [Lente:] er York apparently ask for two years' experience in... [Martin:] Do they? [Lente:] the postgrad course. [Martin:] Oh do they? Yeah well you could go and talk to them and see what they... what they thought you ought to be doing in that two years. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] I mean erm... well I don't know, would you want to stay here, or er [Lente:] Erm... I don't know. I mean is it... I shouldn't think so. If I, if I was t two [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] years... erm [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] ... training in between [Martin:] As well as two years' placement or something. [Lente:] Yeah. I mean I've, I've very [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] much enjoyed my three years here but [Martin:] Yeah,. [Lente:] I think it would be nice to go somewhere new. [Martin:] Mm. Mm. Mm. [Lente:] Erm [Martin:] I think one of the things is of course to try and use the placement to sort of check out for yourself erm perhaps what sort of group you want to be working with in [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] in general terms, you know. I mean one of the problems with probation I think to a certain extent is that... er obviously if you get these people who keep going into prison and coming out again, er it's really pretty difficult to erm... er... influence their behaviour positively probably. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And that can be a bit depressing, I think. Erm... whereas you know maybe with the younger people you feel, well at least there's... you know more, more chance. Erm [Lente:] I think you feel that you've put in more a more positive input. [Martin:] Yes. What if y well that's right, yes. Yes you know there is a chance still to er get them on a... er a route which will give them a sort of positive... er relationship to society maybe rather than a negative one. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But on the other hand of course you've often got to deal with not just them, but their parents or, or people around them or the people they relate to and... [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you know er e so even, even that can be... quite difficult, but on the other hand... you know there's probably more, more chance of... creating something positive. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But I mean it depends. I mean some people actually... erm... depends what you think of as positive. I mean I, you know some people actually... erm... quite like looking after the older people, where [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] really I mean what you're almost sort of presiding over is a sort of steady decline, really, but on the other hand I think some people think if you can make that as erm as sort of dignified as you can and actually give them... sort of support when they actually need it, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] then erm that's actually quite a worthwhile, you know some people get quite a lot of satisfaction from doing that. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] So it's a very personal... sort of thing really, you know which area you... want to go into. And I suppose... it's not necessarily always the one that you've had experience in so far, you know. [Lente:] Yeah. That's true. But I mean the, the [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] ... I suppose... the, the sort of things that made me think I might be suitable for social work have been coming from working... with the young. [Martin:] Right, yes. Yes. [Lente:] Erm but you see I haven't... I don't know. I suppose in interview, especially with er a C V like mine, that I might come over as quite... erm... naive... [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] and I, I ha I've had a privileged background. You know even [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] the very fact that I'm sitting at university, [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []. [Lente:] would denote that. Erm... but I... I want to... and I'm not sure where to go from here, I'm not sure [Martin:] No. [Lente:] where to get the contact that I would need. Erm [Martin:] Well it may, it may be that... you, you will... it'll be a sort of growing thing, you know? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] What whatever you start with, that'll, that'll give you another... erm... er sort of experience. I mean I think that's why in way it, it would be good to go outside the religious context, because then you'll come up er y you er you know you'll meet people who have a er a rather different motivation [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] to your own, but you'll be, you'll understand it, you know, and you'll, you'll... erm er get to understand what, what their motivation is, which [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] I think'll be very important because [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] probably er the majority of your colleagues are not going to be religious. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] I mean unless you actually do go and work for a specifically religious... charity, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] which of course you, you might be able to do. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But erm that would er... y you know limit you er very much, and even if you did, er you would almost certainly be, be erm... having to relate to other professionals in, in, in the er area who, who were not... religious, so it would be a very good thing to... [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] do that I think and, and see another... side. And I mean in that way you might sort of really want to go and look at one of these erm... er... sort of... er rather awful inner city areas. But I suppose Birmingham is not... er er [LAUGHTER] [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] marvellous [LAUGHTER] is it really [] from that point of view. [Lente:] That's right. Er where I was working erm in the [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] last er half of that year [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] erm w in Ladywood erm er [Martin:] Mm. Oh right. [Lente:] erm the people who came to the youth group they... [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] erm they were erm... underprivileged. [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] I mean the schools they went to weren't... er weren't really what I was used to [LAUGHTER] you know []. [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] No []. Yes. Yes. [Lente:] Erm... but to be honest I, I think you're right about the Christian angle because I do think that erm, although I enjoyed that year, [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] erm if [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] if I had er if I could do it again I'd do something... erm really different from that, [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] erm a lot [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] more practically-minded than it was. [Martin:] Right, yes. Yes [Lente:] Erm because it was a, a sort of a student thing as well, [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] and there was, there [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] were, there was bible teaching and all sorts but... I don't know. I don't... [Martin:] Mm.... Mm. [Lente:] I, I should think you're right, I would get [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] er boxed in. [Martin:] Well I, I think it would you know you th there there's, there's... I mean that's not to er deny the importance of erm er you know Christian motivation, [Lente:] No sure, mm. [Martin:] it's ju it's just to get a look at the other side so that you can see that erm [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and erm... I think too you, if, if you can think perhaps... for yourself, try and think out what you want to get out of this experience. You know what you want to get out of it, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] er in terms of equipping yourself for erm er you know being er erm... er... well better able I suppose to, to work out... where you could make er a, a, a, a real contribution you know? [Lente:] Mm. Mm. [Martin:] Now what do you need to [LAUGHTER] know [], you know, about yourself or about how you relate to particular groups of, of underprivileged erm or... er you know inadequate people, I mean people who can't cope in various ways, particular erm areas, I mean age groups or particular forms of erm... er maybe disability er or handicap or whatever, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] which you know maybe you, you, you'd like to... erm... sort of er see how you related to those sort of people. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm... er it's a huge area of course. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm and, and I think in a way you y you know you may start the exploration and then that may lead you on to do something else, and, and you may spend... actually a bit of time before you actually want to start the training. [Lente:] Sure. [Martin:] You know before you're sure whether it's... cos you know if you get into probation you see, that's quite a specialized... area and, and it may I think actually it might be... it's quite difficult to get into. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm... er so er you know it may be that you would need to work, and I'm sure they would probably expect you to have worked with offenders erm [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] or ex-offenders or something in some... category o or other, or er perhaps amongst young erm you know underprivileged groups who... provide a lot of the erm juvenile criminals. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know so that you are trying to do that. Er and also it's not always easy, I mean... there's all this youth work business and sort of detached youth work and so on in... erm... er you know in the very underprivileged areas, but actually I, I think people say that the erm... er the disaffected teenagers are actually some of the most difficult people to relate to at all. I mean some people have a knack. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know. But, but they really are quite... quite difficult you know, and almost you want your sort of most skilled [LAUGHTER] people []... er doing that really erm [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and er it's sort of a question of erm... how much challenge you want to undertake both during the placement period and immediately afterwards. But that's one of the strengths I suppose of the social work qualification, that it is a generic one so [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you can move about afterwards... [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and so on. But... [Lente:] And the, and the training [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] er I mean er especially [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] er with it changing, I mean that's er it's very much [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] placement based isn't it? [Martin:] Oh yeah. [Lente:] But you see the thing [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] er... that would be... erm... structured in a way that y... the people who are er training are making sure you've got the best out of it and are making [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] sure you were... [Martin:] Oh yes. [Lente:] erm examining what you [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] were learning as you went along, [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []. Yeah. [Lente:] and erm... [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] you know that's exactly what I want. [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] But I need [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] this experience to get on the course [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] and I need to ensure that this experience erm... well I... I need to make sure that I will be evaluating it in a similar way as I went along. [Martin:] Yes. I think that's right. I think if you can... now, it may be that you could find a sort of semi-structured thing like the Richmond Fellowship. Now I've no... [LAUGHTER] brief for the Richmond Fellowship [] [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] you know, [Lente:] No. [Martin:] j it just happens to be one that I know about. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] There may be lots of others which do very similar things, but I think this is a question of you working out the criteria for your placement that you want, you know, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and, and what you're trying to do and what you hope to get out of it, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm and er then you know you'll, you'll have a bit more of a, a shopping list... as it were, and, and that may help you to erm actually define where you want to go within this huge range of... of er you know possibilities. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm... I mean... there are erm... it's very interesting. Cos there's also another th area I know a bit about is, and, and don't take [LAUGHTER] these as [] being the only areas, it's just it's easier if you actually discuss a... a sort of case, you know? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm... there's this erm Rudolf Steiner community which is part of the Camp Hill Village Trust. They actually set up villages, which are in erm... you know usually in rural er surroundings, and erm er they have erm... usually I mean they're mentally-disabled people there, and erm er they set up the village so that there are able- bodied people in there, and yet they live with the er mentally disabled people, you know they have houses and they the erm in inverted commas normal people have... erm... [sigh] children and all this sort of thing, erm and yet they have erm er... some of these mentally defective people living with them in the house, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and they have to you know... let their children get used to them and so on and [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm er... it's very interesting because of course the children grow up... probably much more comfortable around people who've got mental problems than you or I [LAUGHTER] would be [] [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] because they, they just know they're different and they, they learn a way of coping, you know? And now that's a very interesting thing to see, [whispering] I mean [] [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm now those sort of villages, there's one at Botton Village near Danby, which is out near Scarborough. And you could go to that for a weekend if [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you wanted to, to see what was going on. And I'm sure you could have great discussions with the people there and so on about all sorts of things. I mean, I mean there are er there are, I mean they probably... I think a lot of them probably are not social work qualified. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Now I don't know what training they've had actually. Erm I mean maybe they haven't had very much, [LAUGHTER] but erm [] but in, in a sense there's a sort of huge commitment on their part to that, because they actually, I remember some chap came over to do the talk and... I think he's got four kids and he said, well you know, I didn't know how my kids were going to react to people fine you know [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] . I mean you have to watch things a bit, but you know basically it's a good experience for them. And erm... he said, I've got no... erm... pension or anything, you know I, cos they don't, they pool the money you see, they, and I mean they do things like erm oh I don't know have cows and make cheese and ice [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] cream and grow potatoes and all this and probably they have bees and sell honey and you know they eat er they really try to be self- sufficient... sort of community as much as they can. Obviously some things they probably have to buy, shoes and... [Lente:] Mm. Mm. [Martin:] that sort of thing, so they make some things and sell them. Erm and er but he's worked at that you see, but he doesn't get any money for it I don't think. I don't know what they do about... must have some sort of spending money, but [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you know it doesn't... they... they don't erm... sort of exist in the social security system like the rest of us do, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and therefore that community's going to have to look after him when he's old.... And of course I don't know how long... don't know how long that one's been going for, but obviously that's another... sort of problem in some way. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But I mean there are huge ways of er you know very very different ways of giving service really. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And you might find out some... sort of interesting things about that. Er the social work qualifat qualification's a good one because it, it... is a sort of base for all sorts of things, and, and you know you might learn specialist erm... I don't know, sort of psychothera therapy techniques of various sorts, but probably the social work qualification would be a good starting point to... to build from. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know, so erm... [Lente:] good starting point the... social work qualification. [Martin:] Okay. Okay, well you know. Yeah. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And then you see where it goes on... from there. Mm. [Lente:] But what if... [Martin:] Yes? [Lente:] if erm ... well where do I go from here really? I mean if I want [Martin:] Well I th I think you, you, I, I would erm... er go and, and have another look at this alternative... thing. [Lente:] The. [Martin:] And obviously there are some of them which relate locally to organizations which are national [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and you could go and look at the local one and talk to the people there and see what they're doing and [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] all this sort of thing. Erm... and I'd try and go and see the admissions person on the... C Q S W here, [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] erm and ask them you know and say, and if they want two years, say well you know I'm pretty keen on this, now what, you know I [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] necessarily expect you to have me... [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] when I come back and apply [] but I mean you know what sort of things do you think I should be doing? And try and tell them briefly what you've done in that... sort of area you know, and, and see wh see what they say. And erm maybe have a look through erm some of the erm well there's a file on... social work isn't there and all the stuff about the qualifications, and get some of the prospectuses and so and [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm... maybe go and see one or two others if you can get to see them. Erm and er... you also try, so, so really it's a question of developing your own ideas about what you think... you want to explore and the sort of skills and things that you want to try and develop, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm and also checking with them that you know you're not [LAUGHTER] going one way and no no [], they'd want you to do something else, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm and, and trying to er... er both satisfy yourself and them... that, that you know you're getting the right sort of experience. [Lente:] Yeah. Okay. [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] And er, yeah.... I suppose I wanna be a bit careful that... the experience I get isn't too specialist as well. [Martin:] Well, erm [sigh] [Lente:] Do you think that matters or not? [Martin:] Mm. I think a lot of it is about... erm... how these er... people, you know how really a lot of the problems for people are in their relationships with the people around them, [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] and, and if those are bad or not supportive enough or actually destructive, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] then n you know they can't cope with it. And, and, and it's getting the idea of how that works... is very important. Now you, you can do that in all sorts of ways. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm and er I think, I think that's one of the most important things. And also how erm if you are a, a helper... what sort of pressures that puts on you. You know, what sort of emotional stuff they try and dump on you, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and, and what do you do about it, you know whe when they er y you know, I mean, I mean I think one of the things is you, you can start off erm you know very open and so on, but if you're not careful y y you actually take on responsibility for them... you know in a, in a way which is actually not helpful to them and is probably very bad [LAUGHTER] for you [] [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] because you've just taken on too much. And you, but you, of course you have to take on something. There's only [LAUGHTER] if the []... person you're talking to thinks you don't care, well I mean they're not you know they're not going to think very much of you are they? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But, but if, if they discover that... you know they can really get you erm er to er do all their worrying for them, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] er then maybe they will try and do that. And that's not very good, you know. I mean your own aim is really to make yourself superfluous in the end. I mean you may have to support them through a... sort of bad patch, but the idea is to erm get them so that they can look after themselves, you know. And they don't really want to go on using you as a... a sort of prop, because I mean you can't afford that because you've got lots of other clients and you, you know really the aim is to try and get them back to... self-sufficiency. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But... there is a lot of er sort of emotional interaction going on, and you'll have to get used to that.... And I mean part of the point of doing the training of course is to get the hang of how to handle that. [Lente:] Yeah, sure. [Martin:] Erm [Lente:] But, yeah and then, but er in the context of the training, [Martin:] Right, yes. [Lente:] I'll be given structures in which to evaluate that and people will be continuously assessing me I suppose. [Martin:] Oh yes, and seeing whether you'd... yes, how you were coping with it and whether you got too involved or whether you didn't get involved enough or whether you actually were able to sort of get this balance between erm... the sort of emotional support you give and the actual practical help which maybe they need in some sort of way, you know because I mean [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] I mean... erm and sometimes of course you can't give them... the practical help they need, you know, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] because there isn't a grant or there isn't whatever it is and... you know and, and how you actually manage to... er cope with that yourself. Because you know you don't have unlimited... resources. In any helping profession you've usually got this problem, you haven't got enough resources. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know. Er I mean you obviously have to make erm... decisions about that and so on. And the nature of caring is changing to the caring professions. I mean now, the erm... the social workers erm are care managers in a lot of cases, in other words it may be contracted out to somebody else to do the actual caring and you look at the package which the client is getting, [whispering] you know it might be I dunno some old dear who needs... meals on wheels and visits every... week or something [] [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and maybe it isn't you that do the visit, it's somebody else who's, who's being paid to do it, but you may be responsible for exercising professional judgment about whether that's the appropriate thing that should be happening and perhaps assessing whether they're doing it properly. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Now that's a comparatively new development but, but, but it's, it's coming in now.... Erm... [Lente:] Mm.... [Martin:] but I think you're right, I think if you, you can get qualified that's the thing and then you can begin to look... thereafter. Except that you do need to have an idea of... I think which area cos that will determine your placements and things you see. [Lente:] Yeah. Well I mean all, all I know in that at the moment is that I, I'd I would be... most naturally drawn to youth, I would have thought. [Martin:] Okay, well I should start there... you know, erm... and, and er see what options there are for getting involved with erm... you know young people, erm [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and... but they are the toughest, that's the only other thing I think. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Except it may be easier for you cos you're nearer in age you see. But that, that causes its own problems because erm, you know, do you just become one of them or what do you do, and [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] erm ho well anyway, anyway. Er but if that's what you're drawn to I should start there, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and, and, and see, but try and see what sort of various experiences there are. Of course there's also you can use one of the agencies like Community Service Volunteers... to [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] try and get a placement. You know they're a... erm placements... agency basically. I mean they don't charge you anything, and er I don't think they charge the employers anything, but their raison d'etre is to get volunteers into appropriate places. [Lente:] Oh that sounds. [Martin:] Erm... but even although that's their raison d'etre they've also only got so many places, so many [Lente:] Sure. [Martin:] volunteers and they try and match them, so [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] the clearer you are about what you want... er the better, you know, the more likely you are to get... w er you know what's appropriate for you really. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So I think you probably need to sit down and try and think out some... criteria for yourself about what you want. [Lente:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I mean... I'm sure you're right, but I just, I just don't know with the information I've got how to make those sort of decisions. Is it a case of wading through files, or [Martin:] Well erm... er yes. [Lente:] can you only get those sort of erm those sort of [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] [Lente:] ideas through the er placements themselves? I mean I [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, I see what you mean []. Well to a certain extent I suppose it's true, erm but I suppose if you said, well... erm you know, can I think of skills that I need to develop?... Erm... and er if I can, what are they? And erm er what er you know how, how might... that be, be developed, you know. And what opportunities would I have for that in these various... er situations? You know. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] I mean I think there is a danger quite a number of the C... erm Community Service Volunteer placements involve things like looking after very severely handicapped people who are erm in higher education or something. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] I mean really severely handicapped so they really need sort of helpers with them for... you know at least fifty percent of the day or something. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Well now I'm not sure that that's actually a very useful... sort of thing to do. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] I mean, I mean I'm sure it's useful in the sense that it gets one person through er doing a degree who couldn't have done it otherwise, but whether it would actually give you the sort of... experience you want, I'm much more doubtful. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And maybe you would know about that. Erm... y I mean if you read er or somebody suggested that to you you might [Lente:] Mm. Mm. [Martin:] have a view about that. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But I think if y if you read some of the stuff and you said well, could I do that? Would that be what I wanted to do? And then you thought well no, no it wouldn't because, and why wouldn't it, er but on the other hand there might be some good things about it and what were they, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and sort of write them down, you know. Er I mean I don't think you want to spend hours and hours and hours doing it, but... but, but [Lente:] Well I can't, I've got a degree to get. [Martin:] Yeah. Well you know, if you spent an afternoon looking through some of the files and what the opportunities were. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Er and I think also it should be helpful to go to er a tutor, an, an, an admissions tutor and say well you know, what, what sort of skills... do I need to get? What are you actually looking for? [Lente:] I'll certainly get that fixed up. [Martin:] Yeah. Mm. And if, if you get... stuck with it, well come back and we'll have another... discussion, you know. [Lente:] Okay. I th I think... the, the most suitable placement I've found was that one in Dover but there, there, then there's the... the erm the Christian motivation. [Martin:] Yes. I mean I wouldn't want to labour that too much. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Er what was it there? You [Lente:] It was er it's a residential place for [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] erm adults with learning disability. I mean it you know that would give you the sort working in a team and working with people and... erm [Martin:] Mm. Mm. Mm. [Lente:] I dunno. [Martin:] It depends though. If you want to work with young people, [Lente:] Yeah that's true, yeah. [Martin:] maybe you should try, you know, and it may not be possible to get the [LAUGHTER] absolutely perfect answer either []. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm but I mean on the other hand if you start trying to develop your... criteria, and I'd go out and... look at Botton Village and look at... the Richmond Fellowship or something, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and you know talk to people who do it and so on. Now say, there's a social work contact we've got in York, who's [Lente:] I've read that, yeah. [Martin:] Well go and talk to them about it, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and try and find out what they want and what's happening to the social services and y you know what they think about... er what they'd, what skills they'd like you to have and the sort of experience you need and so on.... I think the more people you talk about it to about it the better, especially people who are in it, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] or doing the selecting for courses or for jobs and so on. So maybe if you had a chat to the admissions person and a chat to the social work contact we've got in York, [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and try and get out of them what skills, you know, and chuck in a few ideas of your own, you know, [Lente:] [whispering] Yeah []. [Martin:] maybe that would, that would be good. [Lente:] Okay. [Martin:] Does that sound alright? [Lente:] Yeah, that's very helpful. [Martin:] Good. Okay, erm... fine. Well I should think that's probably about it then. [Lente:] Right.... Erm [Martin:] Is there anything else? Erm [Lente:] Er I'll make er other appointment, another appointment as and when I. [Martin:] Yeah, that would be fine. You know, I mean we're here, well are you going down... at the end of the week or something? Or [Lente:] Erm no, I've got too much [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] , I'm gonna stay here through Easter. [Martin:] Oh right. Well we're, we're here except for Easter. Well you've probably seen, we've put a notice up on the front door to say when we're open and when we're shut over... the Easter vac, you know, but it's really basically a week we have at Easter and [Lente:] Mm.... [Martin:] sometimes there are odd days... in the vac when we do other things and we shut, you [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] know, but erm... [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] And you can always catch me, if making an interview is difficult in the time [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] then you can catch me or one of the other careers advisors out [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] in the Information two till four every day. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm during term that is, unfortunately [Lente:] Right. Well of course I, I should have done all this last year, you know. [Martin:] Yeah. Oh well. Never mind. It's, at least you're doing it now, and [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] erm... getting it right's important. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But I think you do need to plan a bit, you know in spite of the fact you've got the degree to do, if, if you can spend time going to see these people. You know, you don't need to spend... ages doing it, but, but just take a bit of time to do it and... [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] to have a look at the opportunities in the files, thinking about what you actually... might want to do and, and so on and what's on offer.... [Lente:] Mm. Right. [Martin:] Okay? [Lente:] Right er, thanks a lot. [Martin:] Right. Jolly good. Oh, now... I've got to stop this thing haven't I? [Lente:] [whispering] Oh []? [Martin:] [whispering] Er what happens er I stop [].

[Segal:] back issues have turned out some previous lectures but you can pick them up afterwards rather than now. Today still unfortunate cos you've got a two page handout. [speaker002:] Why? [Segal:] Cos they do little trees on them which takes space. Er, well this, this is the last week at Kings term which means that this is the last lecture in this series so if you come back next week you'll be disappointed. Erm the service continues next term with me starting and then Mike taking over half way through and what I'll be doing is supplying the general two theoried two theoretic semantics that I've been talking about erm two specific instructions in a natural language I can get what six [speaker002:] [cough] [Segal:] definite descriptions and names something like that.... So today I'm going to talk about notions of structure or... about sentence structure and logical form, so point one a reminder something that I keep saying, knowledge of language is knowledge of a bod a body of rules that assign phonological, syntactic and semantic properties to words and sentences. Thanks. You've got a box in your head and it's got rules of those three types, at least those three types.... Erm now, something that puzzled me for quite a long time when I started out doing philosophy of language er one or two years ago erm... frequently you hear claims or we hear claims to the effect that this is a logical form of this sentence or this is the structure of this sentence, or this is the semantic structure of this sentence and I was never quite sure what that actually meant erm it's partly because... apart from Davidson, erm a lot of people who write on these issues don't actually tell you what the background theory is and exactly what the point of the assignment of structured sentences is supposed to be, erm however after thinking about it for a while, I've arrived at the following [LAUGHTER] following general view [] there are at least three rather different enterprises er which might lead you to assign sentence structure and er one needs to figure out the relations between them. So point, sentence structure. There are three distinct projects logic, syntax and semantics which might lead you, which do lead you to assign structures to sentences. Logical structure accounts for certain inferential relations among sentences. I'm gonna elaborate on all these a bit in syntax a lot as we proceed. Syntactic structure accounts for well and ill-formedness. Semantic structure accounts for the derivation of meanings of complex expressions from those of their components. It's not obvious a priori whether all or any pair of these projects converge on a single set of structures.... And now just to spend the rest of the lecture elaborating on what I just said. So logic first erm point three. Logic needs to account for logical relations among sentences the sort that we'll learn about in elementary symbolic logic. For example, needs to account for why if the sentence P and Q is true, then so is the sentence Q and in order to do that it assigns a certain structure, for example as on the handout in my assigned structure and brackets P Q.... Erm... anyway erm it just has and has a separate particle operating on two distinct sentences that are not ordered... syntax needs to account for the well-formedness of the structure, sorry P and Q. The ill-formedness of P Q and... the similar grouping of and with or that is in English between sentences and where you can find one and find another... but not with, not... you don't say John loves Mary not Peter loves Jill. A slightly more subtle data the well-formedness of the following dialogue Sally likes Jill yes, and she likes Mary versus the ill-formedness of Sally likes Jill yes, she likes Mary and.... Well what this suggests is that... and she likes Mary accounts as a legitimate string with and at the beginning of the sentence, but she likes Mary doesn't, so you can't stick and at the end of the sentence. Thanks for. Okay, erm... okay moving on to semantics, we're half way through point three. Semantics needs to account for our understanding of P and Q on the basis of our understanding of P, Q, and and. It might just assign a structure P and Q, three separate constituents between their structure. In each case the assignment is part of a large theory with its own particular data and goals. So it's a priori possible that the three projects don't converge. Erm... okay I'm going to talk about syntax mostly erm is everybody happy with the, the role that the assignment of structure plays in, in logics and semantics? I'll come back to semantics a bit at the end. But if you remember your symbolic logics there should be no problems. That rules... deduction rules of whatever kind er derivation rules or rules er... applied to sentences in logic on the basis of the structure brackets what kind of connectives you have and so on.... Okay. Semantic syntax and then afterwards the relation between syntax and semantics so I'm actually going to do some real syntax. Lesson one in syntax. Point four erm sentences are made up of noun phrases and verb phrases... those phrases can be composed of intransitive verbs standing alone, or transitive verbs and objects... so you can have four, the structure what sounds like Florence smiled actually has a structure as on the handout... in the sentence composed of a noun phrase and a verb phrase, the noun phrase contains a single noun Florence and the verb phrase contains a single verb smile or you can have something like four two, Florence teased Dougal and there the verb phrase contains the verb teased and another noun phrase containing the single noun Dougal. Okay, that's the question is why, why does it have that structure? It might be that the subject noun and verb phrase go together to form a constituent, so you have Florence teased Dougal or the structure might not be that it might just be... three separate constituents with no firm structure forming a further constituent, so why that structure? Okay, well I shall now give you evidence for that some which is straightforward, some which is a little bit more subtle. So point five, evidence for verb phrase structure.... First of all ellipsis. This is where you drop something from a sentence or phrase and you leave a word or a phrase out. You can often allow a verb and an object together, but never a subject and a verb, so sentence three and five you can say Florence said she teased Dougal and she did, I E she did tease Dougal, but... sentence four is ill-formed. Florence said she teased Dougal and Dougal, which is what you'd get if you allowed it and Florence teased, so you can allow teased Dougal, but you can't allow Florence teased. So here's the hypothesis to explain that ellipsis is confined to constituents... where constituents are just what they sound like, genuine components of a larger thing which is signalled by sticking brackets, labelled brackets round them so they make a phrase and you can do certain things with them.... Okay. Second, four B, erm the proform substitution where a proform is like a pronoun or a proverb or... if you fancy a pro-sentence... erm sentence five Florence teased Dougal, and Brian did so too... did so means teased Dougal the sentence for that is a proform. That's fine but sentence six Florence teased Dougal, and did so Brian too... doesn't sound right... but notice that's exactly what you would get if you could substitute the proform for... a subject verb construction and then it would mean Florence teased Brian too.... Okay? C, the third piece of evidence idioms tend to be either whole sentences or noun phrases or verb object instructions, but never verb subject or rather subject verb instructions. When an idiom is just... something that has the form of, has a certain apparent grammatical form but actually occurs just as a single unit of a fixed meaning, so it has no genuine... semantic structure from which you can determine its meaning, for example kick the bucket means die and you don't get that in the meaning of kick the bucket.... but notice kick the bucket appears as a verb phrase and eat humble pie, get your knickers in a twist and so on. So if you just generally think about the idioms like that, frozen pieces of language and fixed meanings you'll find they come in formed sentences and subject expressions and verb phrases... but not subject verb. [speaker002:] Could you say I walk, I walk? [Segal:] I walk? By idiom? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Segal:] Erm... well really... it's just what I said, it's er... roughly speaking it's when er a string of words doesn't have the meaning you'd expect on the basis of the standard semantics of the language, but rather has a fixed... different meaning and whenever there's any apparent structure in it, I E several words, er, their, their normal meanings are irrelevant which is the meaning of the whole phrase. So like I said kick the bucket, the meaning of that idiomatically is just die, sorry die. [speaker002:] It's a metaphorical meaning originally? [Segal:] Er, it might be I don't know in this particular case. It often comes about that way, it starts as a, a metaphor and then gets frozen. [speaker002:] What do you mean subject verbs and? [Segal:] Er... what I actually mean is whenever you have an idiom, you can substitute in the position of a whole sentence or of a verb phrase, but you can't substitute it for a subject and a verb, leaving the object of the sentence intact. Yeah, so, so... Okay then the general I'm for is that in a subject verb object sentence... there's very important sense in which the verb and the object go together, they form one unit and one constituent of a sentence, whereas... subject and verb don't.... So in point of fact idioms is... you'll find that they always fit in either this slot or in this slot, but you won't find an idiom which has to form such that if you remove the subject and verb from a sentence you can stick the idiom in there and it will make sense. You're the literary one. A, because it's not an idiom, and B even if it were it would be a whole sentence, because walk is intransitive.... Well think about it I mean... there might be one, in which case we have to do a little bit er [LAUGHTER] dancing around [] [speaker002:] Why doesn't the idiom just take the place of the verb, because if you get rid of the object as well? [Segal:] Well it's a verb phrase so erm... they just, all that means is if you take a subject expression and well, what goes, what goes after such expression is a verb phrase, that my opinion not just you know.... So, although... in all these three, kick the bucket, eat humble pie, get your knickers in a twist er all look like fairly complex transitive constructions. They look as though they they don't really they actually intransitive. So that's okay, the point is that they can substitute in a sentence intransitive verb or transitive verb object grammatic [speaker002:] How about erm God smiled upon John, God smiled upon someone? [Segal:] Er... [speaker002:] Meaning he was talented. [Segal:] ... Mm, yeah, good.... I don't know, I'll think about it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Very good [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] [LAUGHTER] Well [] unfortunately if they're idioms, then they do. God smiled upon him, er... idiom? It does seem to be doesn't it?... Because if you substitute something into the God, it doesn't really work or smiled upon... fortune smiled upon him. Fate smiled upon him. Yeah, it's not an idiom. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Notice it really isn't smiled upon, smiled upon is one, is the idiom. so that's just a, a verb and then you can put, put in anything such that if such thing smiles upon you, you are blessed, God, destiny, fate, fortune. [speaker002:] I'm sure there are things about [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Well there might be er... and that's the trouble when one starts doing philosophy and there's real study of language, it gets really difficult. Erm okay, moving on to point six, and now we soon get a little bit fancy. This is more evidence for... the claim that you get a verb phrase in a sentence erm, but it introduces, er... it's also an example of how you can account for grammatical phenomena in terms of er structural relations in sentences and large expressions. So, point six erm... okay... look at the sentences one and two under six, one is apparently ill-formed, herself left, except in... I think some Irish dialects... actually yes, well it has a rather special meaning... where herself is given special status... erm in the context, but in normal English, English herself left is ill-formed, but two, Florence saw herself is fine... herself is a reflective pronoun refers that herself... each other or one another, the other are reflective pronouns.... Erm and then if you move on to sentences four and five underneath them... er anyone left... is ill-formed, but no one saw anyone is fine. Still, ideas that the reflective pronoun herself and the item anyone which is called a negative polarity item, the item anyone needs to have something else in the sentence in order to license them... they can't just occur freely... in the normal position for er nouns, even though they are nouns.... So Florence licenses herself and Florence herself and no one licenses anyone in anyone. Okay, but the item that licenses them... the other licensing sentence you need... in order to license these items, you can't just go anywhere in the sentence... so sentence three, herself saw Florence is no good, even though Florence is there, it's in the wrong place relative to herself and similarly six, anyone saw no one is no good, even though no one is in the sentence.... So what we need to do is you need to figure out... what kind of items license erm... reflects the pronouns like herself and make it a polarity items like anyone. What kind of items license them and where do they have to be in the sentence.... Well the position... the relative position is to find in terms of pre-structural notions. Erm, okay the notation for Flo Florence teased Dougal is it can be expressed, converted directly into the explicit tree notation on the handout. That just depicts the same structure in terms of constituents and sub-constituents, so the whole thing is a sentence which in the bracketing notation just has the sentence with its bracket and the other bracket's way down the other end, and this is mirrored by... the label sentence occurring at the top of the tree, it means it covers everything below it roughly. The sentence is divided into noun phrase and a verb phrase... and so on verb phrase. That's just a bracket notation... made more explicit. Okay, we can now define certain pre-structural... relations which we'll then use to explain the behaviour... of things like herself... so it's only over... okay, and node X dominates a node Y right, where a node is the point where a label appears, sentence node, node and so on. So node X quote dominates a node Y if and only if there's a path leading down the tree from X to Y. It's straightforward, just means it's higher up... in the tree, and there's a path connecting them. Okay, we can now define a further notion called C command... the phrase X... C commands a phrase Y, if and only if A... neither of X nor Y dominates the other... so neither is directly above the other and in the path... and B, the first branching node is dominating X, also dominates Y... so let's find out if X and C commands to Y, you go up the tree from X and you find the branching node, the first branching node dominating X and see if that node also dominates... Y.... Okay. Well I've just defined it as constructural notion and am now going to show the point, having done that. What C command really is is a scope, it's er syntactic correlate in the notion of scope from logical semantics. No, I don't think C means anything. It's erm terminology... it comes along with government binding. Dominant. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Which is if, I mean... when he was giving lectures in government and binding, people would... invited him would put up posters saying government and binding so he got all the wrong audiences. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] It was quite a serious problem I mean that you, you get hundreds and hundreds of people in a room to get jobs to talk about politics and he'll start [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Okay. What's the point for a C command? Well, well the main point is that actually it's the proper, er syntactic definition of scope... and, but in this context it'll explain stuff about, er negative polarity pronouns. Yeah. Yeah. So if you look at the tree T one [cough] okay. Florence C commands both saw and herself because if you go up the tree from Florence you find the first branching node, that's the S node... and that dominates both saw and herself. Okay and saw C commands herself because if you go up the tree from saw to the first branching node, you'll find that branching node also dominates herself. Okay, but saw doesn't C command Florence because the first branching node dominated saw, it's a verb phrase and that doesn't dominate Florence, it's on the wrong branch.... Okay, so the, the reflective pronouns require a C commanding antecedent, antecedent really is just [LAUGHTER] a noun phrase from which it can get its reference like herself back to Florence. [speaker002:] Florence er C commands Florence [Segal:] Er... er... yeah I think it does actually... erm, yeah cos Florence doesn't dominate Florence and the first branching node dominates Florence dominates Florence erm, Okay, now I've just used this one example, but if you look at erm... each other and one another there is also a reflective pronoun to find that they work in the same way in the appropriate antecedents and it also works for quantifier pronoun relations every girl admires herself... which is fine but herself admired every girl doesn't make a whole lot of sense.... So I just picked two examples, but you'll find that they generalize a some interest. Okay, negative polarity items, that's the... anyone case, they require a C commanding trigger, so if you go on to tree T two, no one saw anyone, no one C commands anyone... but notice if you reverse that and you had anyone saw no one, with no one in object position, anyone subject position... no one would then not C command anyone.... So that would predict what we found, that anyone saw no one is ill-formed. This also generalizes er... the trigger, is basically some kind of negative element. People, I don't think anybody really knows how to define the notion of trigger properly, but there's always some negative connotation like no one erm... and you can say I don't like anyone, but you can't say I like anyone. Well you can actually, but you can't say... I like you any more... but you can say I don't like you any more.... Erm, well C commands roughly it's just a noun phrase, which can endow the pronoun with a reference or an interpretation, so if Florence saw herself... Florence is a noun phrase and gives herself the reference Florence. It does work for quantifiers... Every doe saw herself... and there the interpretation of herself is like in logic.... Every X, X doe... X saw herself... cos all the does are standing around looking at the lake, seeing their reflections... so there is just a quantifier.... Herself... works very much like a variable from logic. Erm Right, no one itself isn't a negative polarity item [speaker002:] [cough] [Segal:] negative polarity item is the one that needs to be licensed by something else. Given them the negative polarity item... I give a damn. I don't give a damn. Actually the trouble is the grammatic ones is people deliberately messing about, especially Americans. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] How about erm the grim reaper called upon you can't do that the same thing as God smiled upon? [Segal:] The grim reaper called upon. [speaker002:] Yes, it's different because the [Segal:] First of all the grim reaper... [cough] grim reaper's just a name for a fictional being and I think that is a normal [speaker002:] Yeah. [Segal:] It just means the grim reaper has been called upon... probably just means called upon. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] since you know what the grim reaper does when he or she calls upon you. [speaker002:] Yeah, but whole thing is an expression and you can change the object. [Segal:] [sneeze] I think you can change also, expressions... [sneeze] [speaker002:] But that doesn't mean Well, maybe. Well let's say this, okay I just don't accept it. I mean let's say this [Segal:] [sneeze] [speaker002:] erm, let's say that... erm... erm the crow sang his name, was an idiomatic expression meaning er that his time was up, he was, he was, he died, so he sang his name. Erm, now you couldn't do that with that and that sounds intuitively like the kind of expression that we might have, just because I can't think of one doesn't mean that [Segal:] But that's a whole sentence [speaker002:] Erm, the grim erm, the, the crow sang John's name, the crow sang James' name... do you know what I mean? And that doesn't sound funny at all. We must have some like that. [Segal:] ... [cough] Erm... Well that's tricky, because the, the object... isn't what goes in here erm it's actually the whole thing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Segal:] The crow's name. [speaker002:] But that doesn't destroy... I mean as soon as the class is over, I'll think of one, that's the problem, or in the middle of the night [Segal:] Mm well maybe, I mean to come up with a, a clear example. It doesn't matter a whole lot, I mean because the... er, all it would show is that... metaphors needn't take the form of constituents in sentences. Sorry, not metaphors, idioms, sorry. It wouldn't show that the verb phrase wasn't a constituent. [speaker002:] And does this er, does this only matter when the subject have an object that, that is? Because I mean there's plenty of epigrams like a rolling stone gathers no moss, but that's a subject not a verb, and it's actually saying something totally different, or every time [Segal:] Er [speaker002:] about the situation and sort of used in a sense about somebody's situation. [Segal:] Yeah, it's just, just that's the whole sentence. [speaker002:] Yes. [Segal:] A rolling stone gathers no moss. [speaker002:] But it's and a verb which are idiomatic and are used. [Segal:] [cough] Well the whole, the whole thing is a single idiom in that case. I just wanna go over the form of the argument erm... subject object.... Now, the, there, it appears that there's a whole variety of phenomena er... which suggests that sentence divides up in this way and that can be explained on hypothesis we just call such a division a constituent, and then we stipulate that, as certain operations can only apply to constituents. We suppose that's a rule in our minds and that explains our judgments... about for example and proform substitution and so on that's so we define the notion of a constituent plus label it with brackets, and then we make certain predictions about operations that can or can't be performed on. Okay, now one of the predictions made is that metaphors to, sorry idioms to form into this plus. That might turn out to be wrong, but that wouldn't impugn the other data the stuff about, er proform substitutions and particularly erm... the stuff about reflexive pronouns and polarity items, yeah, that's why it's not, it's not actually crucial. But of course if, if you start, if you find that the other evidence dissolves as well, then, then you give up eventually. Yeah, the whole sentence is, is a constituent itself er it and can be a constituent of larger sentences obviously. [speaker002:] It's just that it's the [Segal:] yeah. [speaker002:] It just can't be, be the, I mean if you think of all the, I mean like say you've got a, a, a sort of er cockney expression for if he's got syphilis might be something like you know Johnny Rotten's kissed him or something you know, there must be things like that, you know, there must be loads of things like that. You know, there must be loads of things like that. I mean that just sounds like familiar you know, I mean not that Ha? [Segal:] No, Johnny Rotten kissed object. [speaker002:] Yeah, but it's what you're standing in, in well [Segal:] Yeah. The subject and verb stay the same the object [speaker002:] subject and verb by themselves which [Segal:] Well Johnny Rotten kissed [speaker002:] That's it, yeah [Segal:] Yeah, and then the idea is the verb you plug in there, whatever then you plug in there is fine. You then get a grammatical sentence and means this person. [speaker002:] syphilis [Segal:] You're right, it doesn't sound odd, but then the question is why does this all really occur? [speaker002:] It does really occur, I'm sure if it doesn't sound odd, it must occur [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] If it doesn't sound odd, you'd expect it to occur. [speaker002:] I'm sure it does. [Segal:] I know that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Yeah. [speaker002:] how would you [Segal:] We'll be just like T two with no one and anyone reversed. [speaker002:] Yeah, but [Segal:] Yeah, but the, the claim is that... anyone needs to be licensed... by the C commanding trigger which is no one and the point is that erm... anyone will then not be C commanded by no one, because no one is too far down the tree.... Erm... but notice if you stick an if in, you have if anyone saw no one, then I'll be surprised, that does actually make sense.... If nobody saw anybody yesterday I'd be amazed... it's fine because if is the legitimate trigger and it would C command no one.... Okay, erm, just carrying on quickly [cough] it's very hard to see how you could account for erm the stuff about reflectives and the polarity items... if you didn't have the structures of the kind you get with T one and T two on verb phrases, erm and the reason's just... erm you want that kind of a symmetry... between say Florence and herself... between their positions in the tree and no one and anyone except you can't reverse them, things like that. If you had less structure as in T three... which is a ternary branching tree, instead of binary branching... be just an N P B N P, it's real hard to see how you can account for the data. You can try it of course, you can try and use erm linear ordering and things like to explain the data... just turns out often these doesn't work.... So now point seven. Neither semantics nor logic... requires V P structure, a priori, that is there's no particular reason why you'd expect verb phrase structuring in particular from either of those two enterprises, because either could get by with... er... either the flat structure Florence teased Dougal, that's the structure in T three... three separate constituents, or teased Florence Dougal where teased is one constituent and Florence Dougal is another which is the way we most standardly do it calculus... and that works fine. So erm, if you're looking, if you're looking for semantic structure, which is... any structure such as and you then provide interpretations for parts of sentences and rules are getting sentence meaning from word meaning in the structure, you can get by with crude structures that don't discriminate very much... and the same applies to logic.... When you do syntactics, you get finer structures, more detailed, more complex.... So now, what are the relations between them erm we talked about the logical bit last time, but about semantics and syntactics and point eight. Well here's an actual hypothesis to make, semantic structure just the syntactic structure. Why? Well, A, this would be an economical and elegant way for our knowledge of language to be organized. Syntactic structure does appear to be suitable for semantic purposes, one can develop compositional semantic rules that apply to syntactic structures.... Basically because in syntax you get all the structure you need for semantics and some more, which doesn't do any harm. Now, suppose you are designing a language learning and using machine... you really wouldn't want to have separate levels of structure for syntax and semantics. It would be pointless it would be messy it would be inelegant and it would create the problem of the relations between the two, you'd have to have transformations to get you from one to the other. So the first thing you'd expect on just... by the false but enormously appealing principle that the world is simple and elegant, is there is just one level of structure there.... It's a terrible thing actually, because you always... pretty much er once they work, once they to the data and people still worry about it, why have rather than some other. They it's simple, it's nice, it's elegant... and it's not an item at all unless you have a further premise that the world itself is simple, nice and elegant and [LAUGHTER] you have no reason [] to believe that at all, but since that applies across all sides, I think linguistics is in no worse shape. Okay, secondly and more importantly eight B [cough] the idea that syntactic and semantic structure are the same, or rather that semantics just works over the syntactic structure, erm that would help solve the acquisition problem. [cough] Remember the acquisition problem infants acquire language on the basis of minimal evidence, that's called a poverty of stimulus problem, which I talked about a bit in lecture one or two. It's just it's very very very... well, put it this way, children seem to learn language very very very very quickly and they've got very very very little data to go on when they learn the language.... [speaker002:] [cough] [Segal:] small number of sentences number that they come out understanding and that's rather mysterious... So to explain just in general terms, you're interested in describing language in such a way that... it's the kindest thing that's easy to learn, rather than hard to learn.... That's the basic idea and the fact that we do actually learn, becomes less mysterious. So now, if syntactic and semantic structure are the same... then both kinds of evidence, both semantic evidence and syntactic evidence will, will constrain the choice of structure. One of the things the kid's got to do... learn his language sentence... and in the context he can figure out what the sentence has to mean, like radical interpretation... kid, the kid is sitting playing on the floor, a rabbit's bounced by and the mother goes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Okay. Erm, the kid's got to figure out if it's going to use that to project the other sentences then it might come across it's got to, it's gotta decompose that into structure. Right. That's one of the important tasks. Well, if there's only one level of structure then evidence about the and evidence of that meaning are both going to bear on that. the same structure. If there were two levels of structure, the task would be much much harder.... Okay, so language would be much easier to learn if this hypothesis were true, rather than if it were not true.... Er, for example? More or less yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, [Segal:] Are they a related meaning? I mean [speaker002:] Yeah [Segal:] It might just be a case Yeah Yeah, obtained, just... they're just photographs. Words that are spelt and sound the same just like and [speaker002:] How about identifying the normal and identifying the philosophy? [Segal:] Erm... what's that going to find the philosophy say? [speaker002:] identify it. Er, well as in the English you'd probably say if you didn't study philosophy, you'd say were identified as Venus, but it's not the same thing. [Segal:] Er, yeah.... It's just I mean as philosophy just very standardly takes... words from ordinary language gradually gets a technical meaning, er which is different from the original meaning and then when ordinary speakers use it in the original meaning they get told off. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Er, that's I mean, I think... if you really, in these cases you have to count them as different words... just like I mean maths and physics doesn't mean what maths used to mean in English. Energy certainly doesn't. [speaker002:] necessary [Segal:] Necessary er... all those things. It's hard, I mean it's, it's difficult to tell, difficult to decide when the meaning has actually changed... it's a notoriously hard problem, which nobody really knows how to solve in the principle way. Nevertheless sometimes it clearly has and other times it clearly hasn't, so there does seem to be a line there, even if we don't yet know, we certainly have to draw it. Mm. Erm... I don't know if I mean remember that in order to do any compositional semantic theory, you have to assign structuring. Remember the little truth theory that we did in lecture two or three, or when you do semantics in logic by swinging two model theories, when you interpret the expressions of a logical language, you have to assign a structure... and, er... the claim here is just that the natural language, that structure, structure that the semantic interpretation rules apply to, it's just the syntactic structure.... Is that okay? [speaker002:] Yeah, [Segal:] It does, I mean it's... it wasn't clearly formulated until er about nineteen sixty eight I think by Gilbert Harman Davidson... Davidson kind of claims this in semantics in natural languages which I suggested that you read, but Davidson puts the claim the other way round, that is there's no more syntax than that structure needs in semantics and that's just false, that's just false because... you're not going to account for all the data I've been talking about, about verb phrases. Semantic structure? [speaker002:] Er, yeah, it doesn't really er [Segal:] But Davidson actually makes the claim that you to assign no more structure than what's required by a truth theory just to get the coming out right. Don't ask me what truth theories. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Segal:] Okay. Davidson says, I think he actually claims all you need to do is, is to develop your compositional semantics to get the truth theories coming out right and that's the only notion of structure you need. He doesn't really, doesn't seem to have room for his idea of having independently motivated syntactic structure... I don't know why cos simple idea, but I think... [speaker002:] But is it true about the semantic structure where you can say it hasn't got a verb phrase [Segal:] yeah. [speaker002:] then the other one still has to have the equivalent of a C commanding although it's in a, in a different way. [Segal:] But you wouldn't have C command, I mean that if you take the first structure in seven, that's just the one in T three.... Okay... so now suppose you have Florence as the first noun in T three and herself... no do it the other way round, suppose you had herself as the first noun and T three Florence... okay... then you'd find Florence does C command herself... but it shouldn't... [speaker002:] Erm, [Segal:] Oh, right. [speaker002:] Er... say if you look in seven you've got er, say the. [Segal:] Yeah, that's erm... [cough] actually, there's... that's this structure... [speaker002:] Okay if you said the first one was saw, [Segal:] Mm. [speaker002:] and er and the last I believe there was herself... then er the middle item has got to be a particular type of item. [Segal:] Yeah, erm [speaker002:] And it's then related in the same way as the C commanding [Segal:] er in fact Florence does C command herself here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Segal:] So that's er on the other hand, erm it would do if you also, if you'll reverse them... herself Florence... which would, which would presumably be herself saw Florence structure, but that's [speaker002:] Yeah [Segal:] but that's ungrammatic. [speaker002:] Yeah, but that's what I'm saying there's [Segal:] So that you'd have to you'd, you'd have to, well you don't, you don't because the thing is... you want an asymmetrical relation between Florence and herself, because Florence or herself is okay and herself or Florence isn't. Here it's symmetrical. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Segal:] Now, you, you could have the linear ordering that's an alternative proposal erm, but then you've actually got erm... you've got to come up with a kind of proper account of these structures of how they come about and of the relation and then you've got to check it out against all the other data and all I can say is as it happens, I've tried that and it doesn't work... but that's only and we want to find out if you can see that the quite a long way. So I mean by, by all means don't take any of this for, for granted. Yeah. Well you have to you have to decide if that really is [speaker002:] [cough] [Segal:] structure, it may well be that it's a structure structure is the other way round... in which case

[speaker001:] without picking serious note of Freud, it's a bit like... you know discussing space high on gravitational without mentioning Einstein, I mean, you know th that's wh what people seem to do, and it strikes me as ridiculous. Er, but, you know, Freud discovered so much about consciousness and unconsciousness that erm, you ignore it, strikes me as just silly. Well, I think a lot of what happens in the academic world is, and my guess is the fundamental reason they get away with it, is that young people won't buy much, spending their own money on it, and I think if they were, you couldn't serve up a lot of the crap that passes for higher education today. Consumers would want something better. [speaker002:] Most people end up neither of them are prepared [speaker001:] No, well, that's true. But erm, and it's a big book that book, isn't it [speaker002:] Oh, yes [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] A hundred and fifty thousand words, at least. You'll notice that I gave that one a miss, because I had erm, so much more pressing things to do. But, erm... perhaps I'll get round to it. Anyway, he's coming to the conference, so I dare say I'll sit and hear what he has to say. [speaker002:] So wh what kind of writing are you doing anyway? [speaker001:] Well, I'm writing a popular science book, at present. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Called Psycho-Darwin, cos you know there's a big boom in popular science publishing and erm, I got a New York agent called who's very good at selling people books, and he's sold, he's sold mine. And so now, I've just got to write it. That's coming on quite nice. And I'm trying to present the kind of things I do in this course and my other course. Erm, in oth in a way, you know that any erm interested reader could understand. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And for me, it represents an opportunity to complete the kind of Freud-Darwin synthesis I've been working on really, for the last ten years, and it kind of represents the completion of the synthesis, as it were now completely merged... in my mind into a single, the single kind of entity that I, I know call psychoanalytic. So that's basically what the book is about. It's primarily put over as a kind of erm, power line to the future. [speaker002:] Well I mean, would you, would you have said to begin with, or [speaker001:] Not, yes, it's based on what erm, on the kind of stuff we've done in this course. The idea that, that human beings are a species whose social interactions are very critical, as we know social interactions are also very important to reproductive success, and so I bring in inside this analytic cooperation the idea about deception and the evolution of the unconscious, that press deceivers don't know that, deceiving. Did you do that paper? [speaker002:] did that paper [speaker001:] You did, you did. Fine. Erm, well, what you did, when you talked about that, and then erm, linked it up with Freudian insights into the unconscious. [speaker002:] Ye yes, so... so you aren't happy with to begin with. [speaker001:] No not, problem neurological. [speaker002:] so you're saying... naturally arises because of its complexity of how it interacts? [speaker001:] Yeah, I'm talking about how it arises from the evolution point of view, as an not, I don't go in at all to the whole neurological question, or how the brain is produced consciously. I honestly don't think we know enough, well, anyway I'm not qualified, erm. Well, even if I were qualified, I would be very, very sceptical, because I think we just don't know enough about that yet. About having brain cells. But then it does go into that side, because it goes into... [speaker002:] Yeah, that's, that's well. [speaker001:] I mean, what does he call himself, a cognitist scientist or some other thing? [speaker002:] I think so, yes [speaker001:] That's his area, and cognitist science is supposed philosophy, psychology and... [speaker002:] Computer science [speaker001:] and computer science... I mean, that's where the answers all come, I'm quite sure, I'm just sceptical, that we know how much about it. And what about the role of language, does he, cos my theory an and, and Freud's for that matter, original, but erm, does he give a role of importance to language? [speaker002:] At the end, I gathered [speaker001:] Cos my thing is, that language is critical. I can't see how you could be conscious, without it matters, but it's interesting you know the hearing tests we were talking about. I mean, you were I know you said something about that in the past. That really is trying to, erm, discover whether the person on the other terminal is human by means of language, and really, you can't think of any other way of doing it.... Well, it's five past according to my watch. And I'll do, I don't know about the other they seem to be all over the place today. Right, let me find my evolution... folder, which is here. Okay, and here. Bits, bits of it are here. Erm, er who's performing today? You are, and what are you telling us about? Right. So you are. [speaker002:] , can I just ask [speaker001:] Mm, today. [speaker002:] I won't be able to to your lectures, cos [speaker001:] Oh, how irritating. Erm, well, I'm sorry about that. That kind of thing shouldn't happen. Could you change your class if it were really... [speaker002:] Yeah, the other one's at the printer form now, by the way. [speaker001:] Oh, I see, I see. That's the summary I handed out the last week, you wouldn't have got... [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] and that's the summary of today's lecture, you would get next week. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Well, I'm sorry about that, I mean that, that's really very naughty of them. Wh what, what er, answers that? Mm, I suppose they have to do it because of the computing erm, departments, has some equipment they want. Oh, dear, I'm sorry about this. Anyway, it's only for a few weeks, you said. Okay, well, er, complex. Tell us all about it. Well done, excellent, erm, as you can see, in some ways quite a complex er, issue, and it's one of those things really, I think to fully understand this, you got to sit down with a pencil and paper and work it through yourself. I'll, I'll go through it, erm, fairly carefully in the lecture. Erm, let's start with the simpler issues though, that mentioned at the beginning. Erm, and that is the whole question of conflict about parental investment in general, and er, she put it very well and, and, and, and very clearly, and I'm sure she understood it, but let's make sure that everyone else does. Why, should there be conflict over parental investment, because after all, children are the link product of success of their parents, so shortly child and parent have got exactly the same self interest haven't they?... Yes, and that's a good erm, starting point. The, the point as says, one has to bear in mind is that, okay, in general fostering are the successful parents, but the parents probably have more than one offspring. So, erm, how many people here have got brothers and sisters? you do, well everyone's got brothers and sisters. Well, erm, you've all heard of sibling rivalry and sibling conflict. Thank you. Erm, does anybody not believe in sibling rivalry and sibling conflict? It is something that everybody is... with you, yeah, Right, well now how does that relate to what just said. [cough] Wh what's the... what's our theoretical insight into it, given what we've done about natural selection parental investment. How could we explain that? That's what our peer would lead us to expect. It is true, is that right,. What do you think? [speaker002:] Erm, certainly when you're, you're very young, I mean that when you're driving for attention. [speaker001:] Mm. Could you give us an example, or... [speaker002:] Erm [speaker001:] You got an example. You got attention. [speaker002:] Attention. Yes, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] yes, just for instance, my brother pulling my hair in the back of the car and annoying me. You know really screaming and getting raged [cough] really resentful and then, you know, back knows ultimately you're wanting parents to side with us. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] So it's sort of, you know, we want to be favoured because we want all the reward, we want to be given a sweet, we want [speaker001:] That's the basic idea, isn't it? That's an excellent is your brother older than you? [speaker002:] No, younger. [speaker001:] Oh, younger, I see. pulling big sister's hair. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah I still got the blame for it [speaker001:] Oh, yes, life is never just. Erm, does everybody else go along with that? Is that everyone else's experience? would y does this happen in Japan? Are, er, little brothers just as naughty? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Erm, yeah. My brother is much younger than I. I don't know. [speaker001:] So you're expected to give your sweets to your older brother, dear oh dear. You were younger, was he younger or older? [speaker002:] Yeah. I, I older. [speaker001:] So he was younger? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I see. So, even though he was younger, erm, and did you resent that? Were you angry about that? How did you feel about... Sad, sad, you were sad [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] Erm... the... why should a parent, looking at this pretty critically why should a parent want an older child, like to give up something to a younger one? Is there any biological action can you see any? Right. Right the rationale is that the degree of parental investment and its effect on the offspring vary with the offspring's age, and as says, one of the fundamental erm, principles of this is that the, by and large the younger the offspring the more valuable any unit of parental is to it, and the more efficacious it is, and the most obvious example of that would be food. Obviously, if you're a very tiny newborn baby, the amount of food you need to er, put on extra pound weight, is, is not going to be the same as if you are a much larger child, and you want to put on proportionately the same amount of X pounds, whatever it would be, it would be same the same proportion of your weight. Er, it could be one pound possibly with a child. You'd have to eat a lot more. So the idea is that erm, a parent may have an interest in diverting the sources from older offspring to younger ones, because younger ones might benefit more from the same unit of resource. Because they're so much smaller, and perhaps this is what was happening in your case sounds very unfair, to me, but er, but, but, but there we are. Perhaps it did. The erm... perhaps the best example of this to bear in mind, and again that mentioned er, erm and explained very clearly, but I think we to mind, is weaning complex. Now, did everybody understand that? do you understand about the weaning complex? Well, mentioned it. Perhaps we ought to lo well, what is weaning? Everybody knows what weaning is mm? What's weaning for? I'll explain, what weaning is. Ya, ya. It means erm, specifically, wean the breast, so that the child accepts solid food or that's what in general means erm, getting a child off baby food as it went on to adult food. Erm, okay. Why should there be a conflict about weaning? Again, surely both child and mother have the same approach on it, erm, where does the conflict come in over weaning? [speaker002:] It shows more child, whereas [speaker001:] That's absolutely right, well done. Yeah, the, I don't think erm, mentioned this in her paper, but er it's a, it's a point worth, worth mentioning in passing because it er, it er, underlines what er, you've just said. But in, in mammals, as a whole, I think there are few exceptions, and certainly including human beings. The er, sucking of the offspring inhibits the mother's cycles and it is the sucking, it's not the actual of sucking, it's the neurological stimulation of part of the mother's nipples. This inhibits her sexual cycles for varying periods of time depending on the species it's about two years. Now, you can see that in the ma mammal where this happens, there could be a very clear contrary as says, between the mother's desire to start another offspring towards the end of the period of, of breast feeding, and the offspring's interest in having some more milk and postponing the birth of the sibling. So, we can expect conflict and, and did make this point, but we need to underline it, because it's very important. When we talk about paradoxical conflict, we can expect the conflict at the margins we, in other, if we made er, if we made er kind of diagram of the parents' self interest in providing parental investment and the offspring's self interest in demanding parental investment, we find that there are large areas of overlap. For example, erm, in the case of newborn, or young or a very young offspring, and a, maybe a mother has already put a tremendous investment into that offspring, as you've already seen. So, her self interest and the offspring's self interest are the same as father's intended. She has a self interest in giving her milk to, to er grow to a point where it can survive on its own. She's already invested so much that, and the offspring has got a self interest for getting as much as it can, so their self interest coincides. Where their self interest comes into conflict, is at the margin, and the margin can be in any dimension. One dimension might be in this time, as we have seen, the mother might reach a stage where, she, it's in her productive self interest to start another offspring, and she may want to wean the existing one, so she can do that. Switch resources, as it were. But the existing offspring may benefit more, may need a little bit of extra milk, so the existing offspring may try to erm, demand more milk, or at least milk for longer than the mother to supply. Right. That's right. The same thing will apply in the terms of quantity. The offspring will probably be selected to want a greater quantity of parental investment than the parent because again, a little bit extra for the offspring probably means more than what to its reproductive success, than it er would mean to the reproductive erm, success of, of the mother, as far as the offsprings are concerned. And the example that, that gave following which was a good one, is crying. Now, erm... why do you think, why do kids cry so much? And so in intensely? Cos half the adults don't do they, or if they do, it's normally taken as a sign of severe... erm, upset, isn't it? Erm, if erm, if one of them contradicted me in the class, I burst into tears, I think you'd think something was seriously wrong with me, wouldn't you? Whereas, if I was a kid, and you took my sweet away, and I'll contradict my you wouldn't do it, would you? You wouldn't be so concerned, why is that? Well, that's the way we rationalize it, don't we, but supposing we were Martians, you know, weren't used to it. [speaker002:] it's all I want is attention [speaker001:] Well, that's true, that's true as well of course. But the, the reason why that's true maybe, mightn't it, that if you look at it from the child's point of view, the crying is a, is a signal it's sending to its parent. Basically to say, er, look after me, or give me what I want, or er, do what I want you to do, or whatever it may be. In some counts, a signal of distress but is attempting to solicit something but is usually what we would classify in our abstract concept of parental investment. Now, if, if a child sends a distress call to a certain level of intensity, it may get a certain amount back, but it may have a sibling who sends the distress call a slightly higher level of intensity and might get some more back. So the idea is idea is that a kind of arms race will develop between the siblings to amplify the signal to get as much back as they can from, from the parent. So the result will be, that the young children will cry an awful lot over about very small things, because what they're doing is they're amplifying the signal to a maximum level. The parent on the other hand, will tend to get erm, a little bit, erm, a little bit sceptical about this. The parent will tend to recalibrate their response, as, as, as you have said, parents will come to expect children to make a lot of fuss about nothing, and consequently won't pay so much attention to a child's distress as they would to an adult's, because we regard it as natural, children to cry or make a fuss about the treatment we contribute, but the reason for that could be that we, we have as it were, readjusted our sensitivity to distress and we, we really have a double standard. We have a standard for children which assumes they can either send very strongly amplifies the distress, and therefore, we are not going to taken them terribly seriously, or at least they can actual reach much higher intensities before we do take them seriously, whereas for adults we have a different standard which, which assumes that even slight expressions of distress in adult could be serious. So so erm, basic idea about crying is this kind of arms race situation, which offspring have been selected to amplify the signal, because it promotes their reproductive success, to get every little bit of extra parental investment we can for themselves. Parents have been selected to become erm, relatively insensitive to signs of distress in the offspring, because erm, as where they cry wolf all the time, and as a result, erm, parents don't take crying as seriously in children as they do in adults. There are other examples of this, and one interesting experiment that we've just done with birds, was with the gape response in birds. You know that when birds are chicks in nest, they gape, their little mouths open wide, like this, and they, whenever the parents come back to the nest,wi with a worm or something, you see the little chicks, their little mouths wide open, they kind of reach out of the nest and, and, and try to to their feeding. Well, in this particular experiment, what the experimenters did was, when the parental birds left the nest, they stuffed the erm, the chicks as full with worms as they could possibly stuff it. their throats were completely erm, full of worms, and they couldn't get any more worms into those throats, so they knew these chicks were totally full, as full could be. When the parents came back, the erm, gaping behaviour was exactly the same. There was no difference between a chick that was totally full of worms and couldn't have handled any more worms, but still as it were, behaved as if it was on the point of starvation, and a chick that was really hungry, had in fact, observation shows that, what parents do when they come back with, with the food is, very often they, they probe the throats of the chicks with their beaks, to see which one's got much most room before they actually put the food in. So you often see on nature programmes, for example, when a bird comes back to a nest with several chicks in, you see the parental bird kind of poking its, its beak in the in the gaping beaks of all the chicks. Not because it's feeding everyone, if you look closely, what it's probably doing is checking how much food is in their gullets. It's got a worm, and it finds one that's relatively empty it sticks the worm into that one. So the parents are being discriminating, but the chicks are being very demanding as it were. have got totally banished, and, and they, they grow but the parents are being discriminating, because it pays the parent to discriminate and feed the ones who really need it, but pays the offspring to, to demand as much food as is possible. So everybody with me so far? [speaker002:] weaklings, you know in erm, how intervals, affect the survival of offspring. So could you say this was in the modern society effect. You know to keep [speaker001:] Oh, yes, you could, you certainly could, and as I said for long periods, parental an and offspring self interest will overlap. It's at the margin where they're probably wont. In other words, there will always be a tendency for, probably for the offspring to want the mother to go on breast- feeding for that little bit longer tha tha the mother may. So that th the weaning conflict will occur towards the end of the period of parental investment. An interesting example of this, I read about recently in the press. Last week's New Scientist, I think it was, or the one before, was a study of one particular type of bird with, I can't remember wh what kind of bird. It was kind of dark, and apparently what happened to this, towards the end of the period of parental investment, when the parents come back to feed the ducklings, they insist on the ducklings following them. They run away from the ducklings and the ducklings have to follow them, and chase them as it were, and the one that catches them, is the one they feed. And it looks as if this behaviour is all about encouraging the ducklings to erm, go off on their own, as it were an and to start to run off and look for food. So what the parents are doing is they're rewarding the duckling that runs the furthest and the fastest, to erm, they're trying to reinforce that behaviour, because what they're are trying to do, is get the ducklings away from the nest and start looking for, for food for themselves, presumably. So here here's a case where this conflict of interest leads the parents to actually kind of encourage their young to leave the nest and, and, and wander off. The supposition being that it's always easier for the offspring just to sit on the nest and wait for the parent. Erm,th that's easy, it doesn't expend any, any energy and er, from the offspring's point of view that's worth facing. But not necessarily from the parent. Okay. So is everybody with us so far, because this is when it starts to get difficult. Because now, let me try and confuse you on that. I hope I will, erm. Are you chilly? I'll go out, I'll go get the windows that shouldn't be open north. Perhaps the central heating's going down, one minute. If I can turn on. Erm, let me try and confuse you first, and then enlighten you later. Because you know it's a common trick in education. Erm, let, let me give you the confusing bit. Surely, surely human altruism shouldn't mean, that there shouldn't be sibling conflict, because human altruism shouldn't mean that since all siblings are equally related to their parents, given you that they're called siblings. There should be harmony, not conflict, shouldn't there? [speaker002:] No. You've still got your own brother. [speaker001:] Right. Can everybody see that? You see, you could say, surely there shouldn't be a weaning conflict, because an offspring should say to itself, okay, my mother wants to wean me, to have more offspring, but those offspring she's gonna have are my siblings, I'm very closely related to them. In fact, I'm as closely related to them as my mother is, if you think about it, because I share half my genes with my four siblings and my mother shares half her genes with my four siblings. Therefore, our degree of relatedness is the same. Therefore, my self interest in having siblings and my mother's self interest in having children are the same. But that argument is fallacious why? Oh, yes, I've only just said it. Right. This is the important point, you have to know it. That's the best way. But this is the way er puts it, and I think it is a very good way of, of, of putting it, as both and say, the point is, that every individual offspring is twice as closely related to itself, as it is to its, to its siblings. So it's quite true of course, that the, the individual offspring wo may be affected by inaltruism. In other words, erm,whateve the R is greater than C. Do you remember our, our formula for penaltriate benefit of an altruistic act exceeds the cost discounted by the degree of that's between a half normally. The offspring ought to be so put to that's perfectly true. However, the point you have to erm, recall, is that if it's a conflict between parental investment in a sibling and parental investment in myself, I am twice as closely related to myself as I am to my sibling. So when my parent is handing out the parental investment, I will be selected to want the parent to give the investment to my sibling if the benefit is twice as great as it would be to myself. But if it's less than twice as great, I'll want it for myself. Does everybody see that? Right, now comes the next step. How does the parent see it? We've described it from the offspring's point of view. How does the parent see it? Because the parent doesn't see it the same way. How does the parent see it?... you, you're a parent, you've got a unit of reproductive success. [speaker002:] Erm, what you mean, if, if one reacts about it [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Bear in mind that see it but it's more likely to pass on energy units, because it's the stronger, you know. It's more likely to reproduce it in itself. [speaker001:] Yes. Yes, it might, it might, but, but, but now you're getting a little bit, you're getting a bit too, too sophisticated now, we're going to come on to that later. Erm, we're looking at all other things being equal. Let's assume that all the offspring are the same, in quality. Even, let's even make them all the age. Let's say they're all the same in quality, they're all the same in age. There's still a difference as far as the parents are concerned. Can anybody see what it is? Well, alright, I mean. Let's deal with the first bit first. Why should they treat them all equally? Why, why does the parent regard its offspring equally? In what sense? Why? This is the important one. From the parents' point of view, it is equally related to all its offspring. Now this is, this is the counter-intuitive bit. Supposing I'm a parent. In fact,let let's do this in terms of a little diagram. Let's put this on the board. I'll do this in the lecture. But let's just do it. It's easier if you do it on the board, and you can see it. Let's, supposing that I am the parent. Okay. I'm the parent P. Here am I, parent P, okay. I have two offspring, A and B which are smaller, little er A and B offspring A and offspring B, and they are exactly equal in eve every point of view, size, quality and animal okay. Now, erm, supposing that er, I have ten units of parental investment, and I invest ten in A and ten in B because I'm equally related to both of them. Okay. Now, supposing that I want A to do something for B, like in 's case, A to give up a food item for B. Okay. Now as far as I'm concerned, if the benefit to B is greater, supposing for example, they're not the same age, sorry, I shouldn't have said that about being the same age. Er, supposing they're not the same age. But supposing I invested equal amounts of parental investment in both and supposing that if offspring A gives two units of parental investment to offspring B, the benefit to B's reproductive success will be three minutes, which it could be, if B was younger. Okay, A gives up two units of reproductive success, a food item to B. This benefits B by three units of reproductive success, whereas it would only benefit A by only two units of reproductive success. In arbitrary units, okay. Now, clearly, I will favour that, because now, B has a total of thirteen units of reproductive success and A has er, a total of eight units of reproductive success, because it's lost some. So totals here are thirteen and eight. Thirteen and eight is twenty one. In other words, the total reproductive success that my parental investment has produced is now greater than it was before I started. So, since I'm equally related to both, in other words, I have an equal number of genes in both offspring,th this, this transfer has promoted my overall reproductive success. Therefore, I as a parent will be selected to want that kind of thing to happen. Okay. You with me. Now, let's go back to what and say and look at it from offspring A's point of view. Offspring A looks at it differently, because offspring A says, my sibling B has only got half my genes, therefore I will make sacrifices for B, wherever B R and greater than C as we saw. Now, in this case, the, the sacrifice is er, two units of reproductive success, they benefit er B by adding er, one unit of, of reproductive success to it. So the cost to me is two, er the benefit to my sibling is one, and the degree of relatedness er, is a half. So the sum has to be one, times a half, is greater than two, which it clearly isn't, cos one times a half is a half, and that is less than two. In other words, I as the offspring are not gonna want to transfer those two units of reproductive success. So when my parent says to me, give those two units of parental investment that I just gave you, to, to offspring B I don't want to, because the benefit to offspring B, or rather the genes I share with offspring B, doesn't compensate sate me for the, for the sacrifice. I'm losing two units of reproductive success. My offspring is gaining one unit, that it wouldn't have had otherwise. Erm, and, that is, that is not a good deal as far as my shared genes are concerned. So the... Oh, sorry, three, yes. Okay. Yes, you're right, sorry. cos it two... [speaker002:] three times half. [speaker001:] Sorry, three times a half. So, it's three units that I'm giving my siblings. Right, three three. The total benefit is three units of reproductive success, three times a half again, is one and a half, it's not erm, it's not the of two. If you think about it, er, there are numbers that will, that will make it work. Larger numbers. If erm, what would it have to be? It would have to be at least, erm, what would it have to be, it would have to be at least the benefit, yes, the benefit would have to be at least four on the, on the B's side, in order for that to work. Anyway,the these erm, numbers don't matter, this is just an arbitrary example. The fundamental point that you have to grasp is... that parents want any transfers between their siblings that will result in a net gain for the, a, sorry, parents want any transfers between their offspring that result in a net gain for reproductive success. It doesn't really matter to the parent, which offspring has gained, as long as there is a net gain. All other things being equal. The offspring, however, don't take the same view. For them, all other things being equal, they will only be selected to make a sacrifice, where the benefit is twice the cost. If you work it out for other relatives, the discrepancy gets even bigger. As mentioned, if you work it out for maternal erm... for maternal cousins, for example the benefit turns out, has to be at least eight times. So the principle, the fundamental principle is that, conflict between parents and offspring, over a we over a... altruism, over self-sacrifice, or, selfishness, which is the other side of it. Because, this works just as well for selfishness, because, if you think of it, selfishness is negative altruism. It's the opposite altruism. Parents will always want twice as much altruism, or half as much selfishness as the offspring, our certainty to. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. In other words, the conflict between parents and offspring, over offspring behaviour is not rooted in culture and nature, as we often think it is. It's rooted in evolution. It's rooted in biology. fo for example, says, that he, about his first erm, experience, was as a field observer of baboons in er, Kenya or somewhere. And this is one of the first, on the first day, he was astonished to see, an older male baboon intervene in a fight between two younger ones and stop it. And this astonished him, because he'd seen this kind of thing at home. He'd seen human parents intervene in conflicts between pa er, between er offspring. You know, like, like er parents did, when her brother was pulling her hair, and she wanted to clout him. I daresay they intervened to stop the fight. [LAUGHTER] Well, what observed exactly the same thing with, with baboons, and said to himself, why are these animals doing this? There has to be a reason why, all the male baboons who have got no particular self interest in, well there's no obvious sign, in a fight between two youngsters, nevertheless he intervened to stop it, and he had realized that the reason, well he ultimately realized, development of parental investment, the reason they intervened to stop it, is that parents do not have the same self interest as their offspring do, when it comes to behaviour of offspring. There's a fundamental ineradicable conflict of interest, because the parents will want any gain to their offsprings net reproductive success. In other words, they favour any act of altruism. But the offspring will only favour acts of altruism where the benefit exceeds the cost discounted by the figure we agreed. [speaker002:] How do you erm, [speaker001:] Well, what, what I mean is, my genes for altruism are present in my body one hundred percent, okay. Any gene I had for making a sacrifice, on behalf of a... a sibling, are one hundred percent in my own body. However, because of the way it relates in this work, they are only fifty percent present in my sibling, so any sacrifice of gene me er, it's not my actual inquest for your finding of the problems, the reason is, this is something we did last term... in, in penaltriusm theory, so the others have got an advantage over you, they've already done it this time. I'm, I'm not surprised that, erm, you're erm,you you're having problems with it. But, it, it ba it's basically the penaltriusm idea that, for example, supposing I sacrifice my life, saving three of my siblings, okay? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I lose my life, so a hundred percent of my genes for altruism are wiped out. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But, I've saved three siblings. Now each of my siblings has fifty percent of my genes. So a hundred and fifty percent of my genes for altruism are saved in three siblings, compared to one hundred percent lost in me. That's a net gain for gene for altruism. Therefore it would be selected, cos that's what natural selection is. More copies of original. So the point I'm making is that... offspring will be prepared to make sacrifices under those conditions, where erm, the R is greater than C. But parents will want offspring to make sacrifices, wherever B is greater than C, and the parent is not concerned with the discount parameter R, but agreed on relatedness, because parents are equally related through their offspring. So any sacrifice by an offspring, that results in a net gain in reproductive success, is good news for the parent. Because obviously the parents' got genes in all its offspring. Can you see that? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] It's counter see you, the reason, the reason that this seems difficult to understand at first is we're not used to thinking of it that way. And the reason is normally we look at human relationships from one point of view or another, or assume that perspectives are the same, but clearly they're not the same, the perspective of an offspring is not the same as the perspective of, of the parent. That was "s basic insight, and it's a very important one. As I have said, I'll go over it in the, in the lecture in more detail, but this is key insight.... So does everybody see it now? Or at least got hold of the basic... as I have said, the best way to do this, is to sit down with a piece of pencil and paper and work it out yourself. Try and do the sums as it were and think it through, and if you do that, I think you'll see that er, it does work out this way And of course, it gets er, even worse if you consider questions like relatedness through parents, because clearly I may be related to my mother's sister's children, my cousins, er no it's actually nieces, because my mother and her sister share genes, but I'm not er necessarily related erm in the same way, erm, through er, my father's er relatives, for example, because although erm, because my er, my, my relationship between mother's kin and my father's kin is purely through marriage, so they have no joint genetic relatedness. So, although I am genetically related to my mother's brother's, or my mother's siblings' children or my father's siblings" children, the fact is, the siblings of both groups are genetically related to each other. And that produces further conflict, because the parents now take a different view. The parents now who they're related to. But their relatedness is not the same as the child. For example, my father is not related to my mother's er sister's children. Normally, if we assume, you know, completely non erm non-relatedness of marriage. So my father doesn't have a kin altruistic interest in me being grouped to my mother's sister's children. But my mother takes a very different view. She is related to her sister's children, so she has a genetic self interest in me doing things for my, for, for her er, female, er for her relatives and my father doesn't. So my parents er aren't gonna ag agree about my altruism. My mother will want me to be more altruistic to hers, than my father will. My father will want me to be more altruistic to his relatives, than my mother will. And this again will be a cause conflict. Sometimes is, and here of course is conflict between and married partners. [speaker002:] How do we judge who's gonna be greater than we can't say that erm, how do we [speaker001:] In practice, you mean? How do we do it in practice? Well, I suppose the simple, the short answer is, we don't know... exactly how we do it. The, the longer and more and less precise answer would be presumably, human psychology has evolved in such a way, as to allow us to make those kind of judgments that would normally be reliable. Er, I mean, for example, erm, if we... if you made us, well, let's go back to th your example. Giving up your sweets for your brother. Presumably, if you felt sad about that, what you're saying is, you weren't as happy about that as your mother was. Your mother presumably, who forced you to do that, was happier than you were about it happening, and that's what made you sad. [LAUGHTER] The, in other words, your emotions were reflecting these kinds of calculations. You seem to have an emotion, that made you resent making a sacrifice to your brother, and, and presumably, would have stopped you making it, if you'd been free to choose. Whereas your mother, presumably, had a different emotion, which made her think this was right and proper, or er, if it pleased her, issuing up this sacrifice. So it looks as if you, people's emotions have been tuned in such a way, that mothers look on these situations from their point of view and feel happy about it, and offspring like you look at it from their point of view and feel unhappy about it, and your emotions are the way the evolution has equipped you to deal with these problems. So if you'd been given a free choice, you wouldn't have given your sweets to your brother, would you? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] However,ho how, what was the age disparity between you and your brother? [speaker002:] Four. [speaker001:] Four. My guess is though, that if, if the age difference had been something like erm, seven or eight years, by the time your mother was asking you to give up sweets for your very much younger brother, you would probably have matured sufficiently and perhaps identified enough with your mother to see yourself playing a more kind of maternal role, as, you know the grown up sister. You might not have minded... giving up your sweets, because you, you'd have got a different kind of gratification. You would have felt oh, I'm being like mummy. And, and I think that kind of thing happens, in fact you notice it happening in families. Where there's a big age gap, between the children, the older child often will go along with the parental wishes much more, merely because it's much more mature. It won't be competing for the same resources. For example, it may not want the same sweets as, as the little kid, you know little kids like little kids' sweets, and grown up kids like more grown up sweets, they may like bubble-gum and things you wouldn't give to a little baby. So the very fact that the offspring are more mature, would reduce conflict, because the degree of value of the sources is going to be much greater, in other words, you could give up the sweet. The, the relative cost to you would be trivial, but the relative benefit to a much younger, erm, sibling of yours, might be much greater. And because you are so much older, you wouldn't see yourself as competing for the same resources, and you would probably have matured in ways emotionally, that would make you accept and identify with the parental values, rather than, than feel sad or, or resentful, because you felt you were more like your brother, as it were, and you were being discriminated against. Does that answer your question? I mean, it's not a very good answer, because frankly we don't know,th the full reasons for this, but... [speaker002:] obviously some variations in [speaker001:] Oh, absolutely, it would. And, of course, I mean, we have, have to remember, that when we talk about ageing altruism, this is just an abstraction. I mean, we're not, erm, we're just simplifying a very complex situation, and in fact, probably large numbers of genes are, are involved, and they're, there are probably complex interactions between different sorts of altruism. kin altruism will certainly function within families for reasons that we've just been looking at, but this will also be a fertile and erm, encouraging er, framework for sibling altruism. So it may be that elements of the sibling altruism will develop in families, too. For example, you might have been a mere, much more happy about making a sacrifice for your brother, giving him a sweet, if you knew that on other occasions, he would give one to you, and because you are related to each other. In other words, you met each other a lot, and w we know you had the kind of situations that... [tape change]

[speaker001:] Now, a slight apology to make. This, things aren't going very well for me today. Er, I missed the train, the video thing wouldn't work when I showed my film lunchtime and er, the book that had to read, er, unfortunately, is not in the library, so er, the le let me explain the background to this. In previous years I haven't had a class on the and I thought I had one this year as an experiment [phone rings] and er, pardon me just a second... [telephone conversation starts] hello... yes, that was a little annoying to say the least, cos those students have come in specially for that, yeah,... yeah... yeah... yeah... yeah... right... Oh dear... right... certainly not... well, would it be easier to show them in my office, that's seven, seven, seven? Well, I could fit most of them in, I'm currently getting in about twelve, ten or twelve, I could fit them in.... Alright, let's do that. Could we, could we have it from next Tuesday in my room? That's seven, seven, seven. Yeah, and you could perhaps let me, let me have erm, let me have one of those little ones. Perhaps I could keep it, could I?... Right, okay... yes, sure, sure, sure. Well, shall we have it in my room for next week? Thanks a lot. Bye [phonecall ends]. This audio visual, ah I apologize for that. Sorry, this will be printing for a while. It's just my new book. I'm sorry. You'll just have to put up with the printer chugging away. As I was saying, yes, er erm, I put it down, erm are you gonna tell us the history of the book, or? [speaker002:] Yeah. There is a bit of [speaker001:] Right, okay. Well, let's wait and hear wh what says, he'll probably explain to you the history of why it is like this. But as I said, I do apologize. There was a copy in the library at one stage, although not listed under it was under, but I now see that when the other day I looked erm, according to er, there isn't even anything under. Did you look under too? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Right, right so I'm very sorry. I won't do it again next year. We won't have a class on that's just somebody that republishes the book. But erm, anyway er, tell us what you made of it and we'll take it from there, I think. [speaker002:] Well, the book was er published in the early nineteen, well, it was written in the early nineteen thirties but er, it wasn't actually published until nineteen sixty seven. Erm, for instance idealistic man primarily, Wilson, President of the United States. So basically, subject given account of er Wilson's life and his personality. In context the psychoanalysis in order to explain erm Wilson's actions and er, attitudes in the pres presidency of the United States during the First World War, basically con concentrates on erm. Despite highlighting er Wilson's intellectual and physical achievements, for instance, he er wrote a very er, well respected book called Con Congressional Government in his earlier cabinet career, and also he initiated domestic reforms, the book is er generally quite scornful, reporting character. Especially the neurosis he suffered from erm, throughout his life on which the his presidential and political career. The main argument put forward by er, er, was that er was that Wilson suffered as an adult, because of the over oppressed rage he, oppressed rage he possessed, which was directed towards his father. As a child, Wilson was er, regularly subjected to the darkness father and criticized and lectured the young Wilson. However, instead of er releasing and dealing with his rage, Wilson er instead chose to strongly identify with his father, erm argued er Wilson never grew beyond his father identification, because the situation whereby er Wilson was full of, of the conviction that his er mission in life was somehow divided. In identifying with what he regarded as his father, Wilson thought that he would er emerge from the war as a saviour to the world, so to speak. two went further in an effort to oppress his rage against his father, and to avoid a highly threatening career situation. Wilson identified with his father, to the extent of wanting to have genital, genital contact with him, since Wilson saw his father as the author of all his skills, his strength and all that he'd been grateful for. This was based on apparently wrote to obtain er, or basically to obtain. This is arguably supported by the close contact of the relationship Wilson had with his father, and Wilson's deeply held religious conviction, which he espoused in his presidency. However, this subconsciously held conflict with his father in subsequent over identification with er led Wilson to be somewhat stubborn, perhaps even complicational as a, as you know, as presidency of the United States, which were, were often directed towards or often only minor details of his work, but he wouldn't he wouldn't actually range them towards say, any major. Er, accompanying this accompanying this frequently not himself, which it occurred throughout his life, through his childhood as well, and his general er sustained willpower which was highlighted by frequent illnesses, especially in his er president of the university, where Wilson suffered defeats and conflicts and transfer of reform of rebuilding the university, and also we see there er back part of his life a Wilson of his own er, seem to direct some of his rage against er, a coloured colleague of his, a. Graham argued that all this is indicative of a person who hasn't grown, fully grown out of his childhood worries, problems, especially the er, he hasn't actually dealt with the true feelings that he had towards his father, and who instead chose to vent his rage on others and political career, which resulted in Wilson being, er well, losing some of his rationality, which led to his poor performance in er negotiating and gaining acceptance of the Treaty of after World War One. Erm, apparently that's what the trouble with the ratifying in Congress that led him erm, some degree to another centre in Massachusetts. Erm, and this also explains in part, why he er complains made by-rules and all concerned what was into Europe, did not materialize. Er, I think if you're gonna try and erm, explain you know, try and assess the validity of the book. Agree or ask yourselves why you agree. Tell us about various reasons, not just study of value of the great of the greatest value there. It seems Freud and perhaps even wanted to er, vent their anger on Wilson, because of his failures concerning the war and its aftermath. Immediately after the war, when Bullett first approached Freud er, with the idea of writing the book, Freud was apparently feeling very depressed, and er, he was savagely critical of his own work, and er, because he had little access to patients during the war, he generally felt quite down and also by presenting written for him, all he would need to wr all he would need to write, and according to er, other people, perhaps he was eating, he was receiving just sort of waiting to die. Whether that's er, I'm not too sure. Erm, anyway, this was when Bullett actually first approached Freud ninetee nineteen hundred and twenty. The disappointment with Wilson felt like Freud must have sort of lingered for quite a long time, cos it was not for eight years that he actually ventured on. This was highlighting the fact, that although, er, Freud thought psychoanalytic should be used in a neutral nerve and not used for any active aggression, an exception seemed to be made with Woodrow Wilson. Although some may be quick to say that the vast majority of the book was actually written by Bullett, and not by Freud, no less than the actual intellectual framework of the book apparently seems to have been due to Freud's input, er, Freud certainly was psychoanalytically trained, in any, in any sense of the word. Er, perhaps the whole project could also be attributed, mainly I think, to Freud's desire to try and keep open the er, the er, analytic publishing house, which he founded in and which er, basically was kept together financially from the er, forwarded, forwarded er, royalties which Bullett sent from America. er, the book has been very heavily attacked by contemporary writers even mentioned passing for the. Complaints have been made, for instance, by erm, er,. The er, book is based on an inaccurate and sometimes even fabricated evidence, due probably to the er, rather idealistic er, excitable ambitious er Bullett, rather than the peaceful like of Freud. Nevertheless, evidence er, was dealt with by our assorted version parent. Much due to the influence of Freud, cos of course, Bullett wasn't a. Contemporary studies of Wilson by, for example, or perhaps even are apparently based much more on fragmented material than Bullett and Freud, Freud would allow. I can't really clarify that. Erm, for example, it appears that Freud and Bullett er, misinterpreted Wilson, especially as regards to the nature of his father. For example, argues that Wilson did not have any sort of homosexual likeness for his father. But that Wilson longed for a psychic union with fantasy, fantasy father. So that er, Woodrow could experience a full sense of self, to actually relate back to his himself, which er, Wilson er, experienced only as a child. His childhood. Er, you have a sexualization of such a long period, Wilson, er, didn't seem to have, sort of, being recorded to his sexual fantasies of that nature. Although there is er a general agreement that Wo situations were, were re really more complicated, in the Wilson family, er,Wil erm, Wilson actually certainly loved his father, his er his mother an and his er father. Er,Wi Wilson, er, did not seem to allow his father's wit and criticism to get him as much as Freud had er, suggested. Er, certainly evidence seems to suggest that a very genuine and close relationship developed with his father. For ex for instance, they er, often confided in one another, usually when they to see what they actually er share each other 's deepest thoughts, and this continued throughout later life, it could be argued bu but it continued throughout later life and what they, they often communicated by er, by letter. It could be argued from this, that er, Wilson's father began to identify more of his son rather than the other way round. Especially as Wilson's academic career flourished, and he er, and he wrote to his father less and less. So of er, resulted in a rather er, sad feeling in his father, the thought that actually his son was starting you started to by his son. argues that er, Wilson suffered from strokes throughout his life, not even emotionally recorded due his psychological condition. The reason why this occurred er erm, the reason why this occurred was not due to some sort of er, due to emotional problems that he suffered within these repressed relations with his son. Erm, and also the reason why Wilson could not actually read until the age of eleven was not due to the emotional er, problems of his father, it was due to a sort of a form of dyslexic er,th there's a hell of a lot of debate about this, er, all these things just what er, Einstein is er, criticizing. But er,sad sadly there's er, evidence that sh show that if there is a dyslexic. Erm, however, it maintains that er, Freud could not have er, known about this, although it seems to invalidate if they are correct. Erm, if the move on the was psychoanalytic issue, er despite the book being generally regarded as an embarrassment to psychoanalytic, is somewhat non. It er, has initiated others to demonstrate how the use of a psychoanalytic science for the actions of upstanding, public, historical figures. Biographical studies can be found on a variety of historical people, including various artists or politicians. But this simply underlines a point that psychoanalysis is, by the very nature biographical, thus historical point, er, historical methods to trace one's actions and reports in the presents, present er, relation to those who they've experienced in the past. If your psychoanalysis is reports, and not just the actions, of it can be a, used as arguments to er, allow this story to emphasise what the human ages evolved at specific suicide of men, erm, goes on to show examples of his erm, he actually claimed to have used this as a sort of process of identification of even fantasizing, in order to try and er demonstrate how er, I think it was Hadrian's Wall was built, try to identify with engineers and architects who built Hadrian's Wall, in order to try and work out what the actual function of the wall was. It wasn't, it wasn't regarded, it was regarded by a positivistic er, as just being er a big wall to stop barbarians er, attacking. People have said he er, they seem to think, that he was more, he was more the sort of territorially divide sheriff sort of er, league of division between er, the two lands, and he was also a sort of lookout post. Erm, this er, again, try to be right be er try to understand the mind, instead of just, just looking at the harsh facts, the hard cold facts and trying from there. So, in effect, there's a subjective animal which can be very useful when trying to explain a glimpse, for example, employed for example the total I E prime and er, also in the psychological. These books also extend beyond a biographical compass of the history, by examining the development of insecurities in society, like as in the future of civilian. And also the relationship between the leaders and the masses in history, er, between the different groups er and then comparing the relations between these masses and different groups and different parts of history. Er, and it can be also er, also er, course in civilizations in history and trace in theory [sneeze] selection in society. Er, psychoanalysis is important, because it acts as a realis as a realistic er, dimension to historical analysis. There is a tendency to try and lo er, continually adjust the plain hard facts, without recognizing that they are, they are in fact socially constructed. That's the objective. It must be supplemented with the subject. For allowing ourselves to look at the report and find the actions, and not just the actions themselves. Erm, so in this, so in times of the Woodrow Wilson or perhaps Freud er, took the subject too, too far. Allow his own feelings and thoughts just to run away with him, which later er, in rather er, a nasty very er, made some very disparaging remarks of the family. But despite the er, rather individualistic nature of the context used there's enough flexibility and openness within the subject content, to say. The psychoanalysis can be used to a limited extent, despite more collective, historical roles er, within disagreed over conflicts in people, or perhaps you say that all the time. Erm, going back to the subjective erm, psychoanalysis introduces erm, no, that's the subject erm, psychoanalysis introduces. Also historians themselves, historians themselves can't actually completely stand outside the events they are actually studying. I mean,th th they're just moving away from the issue, because it it's using a psychoanalytic stories. Try to give a psychoanaly psychoanalytic study issue. Erm, can you keep with me? The er, the very important experiences of this story were never to be received into his work. Or our work. And would be useless the er, content and electrons. I suppose er, suppose that, suppose that er, main department store other contents from other dimensions. Psychological content, but again, in that content, in that er, particular content, psychoanalytical context can be useful. [speaker001:] Well done,w well done, excellent, I mean. Although as I said, it was perhaps a mistake, erm, both classes produced excellent papers, that th it was a first class paper, in the other class and so was yours. didn't read the book. Where did you get all that material from then? [speaker002:] Erm, books on psycho history publish yours. [speaker001:] Right,. Oh, you went through all the psycho history books? Yeah, well done. Erm, well it's a great achievement. I think that given that you were er, you couldn't find the basic book that you were expected to read, I thought you, you gave an excellent account of it, I mean, if you hadn't told us that you hadn't got the book, I don't think we would have guessed, would we? You would've got away with that one. But erm, no, absolutely first rate. Well done. I think you can, you can really erm, you can really be proud of yourself on that. And erm... well, what do other people think, I mean what, I suppose no one else began to look at it either. I will be giving a lecture on it, so I'll have my say about it. Erm, has anybody looked at any of the other books, like for example, the one on? Did you? [speaker002:] I didn't have time. [speaker001:] Has anybody got the time? I'll tell you the reason why I did this. Erm, in a way this was a bit provocative. What I... what I thought was, well let's have erm, Woodrow Wilson, okay, as you said at the beginning of the book, Freud admits that he didn't like Wilson, and that he felt betrayed by Wilson, like a lot of people in Central Europe did I suppose, because you know, Wilson came over erm, with fourteen points as the saviour of the world, and went away leaving with a piece of. And Freud and a lot of other German speaking people, thought that he had let them down, because he didn't have the political goodness. Erm, and so Freud at the beginning says that he er, he, he had a personal dislike of er Wilson, and resented him for what he had done and held him responsible for the subsequent disasters. So, so Freud makes no bones about it. Erm, the book by Leo who's er Labour, was a Labour M P, no longer er keen collection reports. Erm, on, I put in because it was the worst example I could find of the abuse of psychoanalysis for destroying somebody's personality, personality assassination by, by er a psychoanalysis. You could imagine what it's like. I mean, erm, if you didn't know it was meant to be serious, you might think it was a great send off of psychoanalysis, you know. Kind of make you hoot with laughter half the time, erm, and the contrast with that is the point, which I don't know whether any of you has looked at, of course, called Gandhi's Truth. Well, as you might tell from the title, Gandhi's Truth is the exact opposite to book, because it idealizes Gandhi, it makes a, a kind of psychoanalytic behaviourography, you know as if Gandhi was some er, great great kind of saint. Despite the fact that Gandhi... one would have thought provided rich material for psychoanalysts, like going to bed with his erm, nieces and his lady doctor erm, and naked and claiming that this was a specific exercise, erm. Nice work if you can get it. Erm, and so on, so, so, so this was the, this was the, er this is what I was trying to do, try and contrast the use of psychoanalysis in, in biography, from character assassination on one hand, to hagiography at the other, and with Freud's Woodrow Wilson somewhere in, in between, but perhaps nearer the character assassination end, because erm, neither of them, er neither of the authors were, really had, had much of a brief of Woodrow Wilson. And, and really it was just as experiment, and erm, the reason I put it in was, I thought, well, you know, this is, this is an ignored book, and as you, as you found to your cost, it's actually hard to come by, harder to come by than I expected. [speaker002:] It's out of print. [speaker001:] Yeah, it's out of print, and erm, but I though it raised interesting issues, anyway. I mean did other people think that? And what kind of issues did you think it does raise? [speaker002:] It's not worth psychoanalysis [speaker001:] Right, now as mentioned, there's a whole literature on this course,ps psycho-history, isn't there? They've even got their own journal. Have you, have you read any of this stuff,? Erm, this is, this is what this school of thought tries to do. In the past I used to have a, a class on psycho- history, and I dropped it, and one of the reasons why I dropped it was, the lit a lot of the literary was very poor quality, for a start, and erm, people, er, students, er got that too, and I couldn't really blame them. And, er, the other problem with it is, you really have to know quite a lot about history, or biography to really... to really get into. I think you found that with Wilson... [speaker002:] There was one chapter in the book, I read it in the. All the pages in biography. Five or six pages instant analysis and it hardly [cough] [speaker001:] No. Absolutely, so... [speaker002:] Two novels [speaker001:] If yo I hope you, I suppose you could have a whole course in psycho-history, if you really put into it enough, but... for just one class, I thought it was too much to ask students to attend, to try and have to get into psycho-history, so I haven't erm, done very much of it, and this, my excuse here really was, well Freud did write a book called Woodrow Wilson. It is touching on the social sciences in the sense that Woodrow Wilson was an important political figure, and there is an historical dimension. So that was my excuse, for, for, for bringing it in. But as says, I mean it raises er, a fundamental issue, which is, is psychoanalysis or, psycho, are psycho insights applicable to for example history or biology, and this is the issue, isn't it? What do people think that? Is it just, is it, is it, is it just trivializing, to think, to talk about, for example, Woodrow Wilson's childhood? I mean, does anybody think that's a trivial approach to history? I mean... Do you think so? Yeah. Do everybody agree with that? [speaker002:] you tell it [speaker001:] Yes, of course, erm... the point has to be made, that Bullett, unlike contemporary erm, biographers of er Wilson, those people you mentioned, actually knew Wilson, and an you know, being his administration on that man as it were, and apparently Bullett had a lot a first-hand erm, biographical data, didn't he, according to the book? [speaker002:] Also tended towards to make a judgment of him, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I think [speaker001:] Right. Right, and the background to that of course is, for those of you who may not know, Bullett was I suppose a more junior person in the State Department, when he went to Europe with Woodrow Wilson in nineteen eighteen, and nineteen whenever it was for a peace conference, and Bullett was the only one of the American delegation who resigned and confronted Wilson and said, look, you've gone back on the fourteen points, you're not doing what you said you would do. How can you go on with this, and Bullett was the only one of them who resigned and went home. And er, later of course, he became the American Ambassador of Vienna, so Freud met him, but so, so, Bullett had a personal stake in this, but I must admit, er my own view was, was rather to admire Bullett for his stand, because it's a rare politician who stands up and says look, you know, we've been there, having made promises, we've broken all of them, and we ought to resign, or you ought to resign. He told Wilson. And, and he said, you know, if you aren't going to resign, I certainly am. And he did. So erm, it's quite true that Bullett had a personal axe to grind, I think it was a rather justified axe. But erm, it er, that fact remains, he did nail Wilson. He was at the conference, and a lot of the book, if you read the book, is concerned with what actually happened at the conference, and basically, the basic problem with the, the book tries to look at, and this is where we, we get back to question of the childhood days. Why couldn't Wilson stand up to the allies, why couldn't had stand up to Clements or Lloyd George, in particular? They seem to have bullied him and made him er, make concessions, and the question that Freud and Bullett constantly ask is, why did Wilson make these concessions, especially since his position was already defined before he came to Europe, you know he already laid down the fourteen points, and sold it to the American people. And then he came to Europe and, and really, let it all go. And their answer of course is, look, here was erm, there's no political or historical reason, because Wilson had all the cards in his hand. The, admittedly the French and the British were on the right side, they won the war, but France er was er battered in the war, lost an awful lot of people, it's a common and although this country, although, you know, fighting in Britain, the er, British economy was also badly damaged. We were borrowing money from the Americans to keep going, and er, we certainly weren't in any shape to dictate the terms of the peace to the Americans. And er, so Freud and Bullett say, look if Wilson had all the power at the time, and some ways the world in nineteen eighty to twenty was a bit like what it is today, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, really, you really only got one superpower. If, if the Americans had all the power, why did Woodrow Wilson just sell out to the Allies? So, Bullett and Freud conclude, well, it has to be something to do with him personally. And their conclusion is, he couldn't stand up to, to Lloyd George in and the reason was these were strong, erm, male leaders, and Wilson, when it came to being with men, er, was weak, and the question asked is, why was he weak in dealing with men? And the answer is, well, if you look at his relationship with his father, er, he was very overawed by his father, he was very passive and submissive towards his father. And so there they, they claim that his childhood was relevant, because of this character defect in, in Wilson, his inability to stand up to strong men. Even though objectively, he had all the strength on his side, and if he'd only stubbornly insisted, the allies would have had to accept the fourteen points, because there was no way that they just didn't have any erm, any clout really when when finally settled in peace. Wilson could almost have dictated it to them, and perhaps another man would have. So this is their justification for bringing in the childhood. What do you think of that remark? Is that legitimate, do you think, or not? [speaker002:] Yeah, I think it is. erm you have, when you see the statesmen [speaker001:] Well, what about the view, let me kind of play devil's advocate here against Freud and Bullett. What about the view? That in history, the important things of economic, er historical, social forces which transcend any individual. What about that view, that the individual person, even a powerful one, like the President of the United States, doesn't really count, compared with economic social geo-political forces, what about that argument?, how does that. Is that the kind of argument that carries any weight with you? [speaker002:] Erm, I can tell you what the other to look at the personality things like that [speaker001:] Right, right. [speaker002:] It seems, you know, because Freud didn't actually analyze just to make a generalization about things he knew about some of the people. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] And that sort of thing counts for what [speaker001:] Yes, that's [door knock] that's, let me see who that is? [answers the door] Hi. Well, that's his office there. He's not there now. I don't know. Have a word with his secretary. [door closing] Erm, the, yes, I mean, this is a big problem, isn't it? The question is, as you rightly say, in psychoanalysis, the analyst usually has a vast amount much more than people normally realize, I mean, I recall from my own analysis, and mean I was going between two and four times a week erm, for an hour each time and it was a good six months before she would make any interpretations, and I used to get very frustrated, you know, I used to say things like, well, what do you think of this, Miss, you know. What do you think of that, and she would say, well, it's too early, or we don't know yet. You know, and she would constantly say that, and... before six months, there weren't any interpretations at all. Then when interpretations did come, particularly if I disputed them, then it would be, she would be ready with the information. She would say, there, there's the of that dream, or those associations, with this you did. There was all that, and so on, and she would be ready with it, and there was a lot of material there. The problem, as you rightly say, with this kind of secondhand announcers, that how do you know if you've got enough material, and that it's right? Also, if you actually read the book, there is quite a lot of material in the book, it's quite a big book in some ways, and er, the material on Wilson's childhood and so on, erm, is pretty detailed. I mean there is quite a lot seems to be known about Wilson, and he himself, erm, wrote a lot in enormous correspondence and so on, and many of the points they make, are erm, are fairly well validated. Why, for example, one of the, the points that Freud's book makes, is er when Wilson was confronted with a conflict, particularly with a stronger male, like an elder brother, or his father, he would retreat into speech making, and apparently he used to have a barn where he did it, and he used to go and give speeches in the barn. He used to speak to the hay, as it were, and he would do this, er, rather compulsively. This kind of speech making. And of course, when he was a man, he was famous for his speeches, apparently, he was a great, was a great waffler, you know, it was the age of wafflers, I suppose. Erm, we heard a great, he was a great erm, refratition So when Freud and Bullett say, look, Woodrow Wilson was a great refratition and you can see him doing this in his childhood. There is actual evidence that he did do it in his childhood, and th so they're not erm, they're kind of building everything on a single sentence like Leo does, you know, amazingly enough, Leo "s book starts with entry of Who's Who in a single phrase, where she calls herself daughter of, her father. Doesn't mention her mother, and Leo 's whole thesis about was built on this single phrase in Who's Who. words, some future researched, that the printer here, missed that bit, you know, she should have said, and her mother's name, but her mother's got missed out on the proofs or something, I don't, this is the kind of thing that happens, of course. Leo 's entire book will collapse, er, as, as, as perhaps it should. Being a writer of course, being the data problem, er, this is a big problem in psychoanalysis, because whereas erm, in an analysis, the analyst has er hundreds or probably thousands of hours" data from the pre-associations of the patient, at the end. The er, that kind of thing is never published, and or even, of course, it can't be published normally, and the result is that when analysts draw conclusions based on this very confidential data, or who were talking vastly extent. It, it's very very difficult to, to validate perhaps erm, publicly. Yeah. [speaker002:] making explanations the other way round. [speaker001:] They are... [speaker002:] theory that you made a mistake, and you've got to somehow explain that [speaker001:] They are... They are, they're starting with the end result, and of course in this particular book, they're, what they're starting with really, wasn't a general psychological biography of Wilson, so much has, the problem, why did Wilson give everything away in the conference? That. They work backwards as, as, as you rightly say. The, the, the best defence you could make of that, if you wanted to make a defence of it, would be that in the nineteen twenties and thirties as we've been seeing in the lectures, I'll be saying a bit more about that some... psychoanalyse was, was developing. It's analysis of the egos as, as we've been seeing, in analysis was really all, all it could do at the beginning, after the First World War, shall we say. breaking point. After the First World War, ego analysis was developing. Now one of the consequences that ego analysis was, analysts began to feel confident that they could analyze the defences of the ego, as well as what the ego repressed as a result of its defences. As a result of that, you could examine a defensive structure, and work out why it existed. For example, supposing you erm, this, this, this was used principally in child analysis, which didn't exist before the First World War, it was developed afterwards. The problem with child analysis is, children won't be associated, that can be made to free associate. I mean, don't ask me to explain it's technical and... so it's a very technical matter of ego psychology that you must accept. They can't be induced to do it. And anyway, they don't have the motives. Children are always for analysis, usually by their parents, they don't usually come of their. So the analysts found they couldn't use free association with children. What they could use, was defence analysis. So for example, if you saw a child, who was pathologically independent, wouldn't form emotional attachments or dependencies on other people of the way the child wanted it. The analyst might conclude, well why is this defence structure excessive independence present in this child? A good suggestion might be, in the past this child has suffered a loss of some figure it was dependent on, and has compensated by becoming highly independent. This was a common finding, and Freud often found this in all children during the war. Some of them compensated by becoming highly independent in the end. So what you could do, you could see the defence, and then from that you could work backwards, to the motive of the defence. So, perhaps the reason is the loss of a love object, and then of course if you found there was a in fact a loss of a love, love object, then you might to see in greater detail, how this whole thing came about. Particularly if you discover that that child didn't have a bad characteristic in their in their ego before this event occurred, and so on. So that kind of thing made analysts think that they could go on more than just free associations, they could look at a person's character, as it were. The structure of ego defences, and then draw conclusions. And really, you see, that's what Freud and Bullett are doing in this book. They're looking at Wilson's character, which was quite a, a peculiar one, in both senses of the word, and not just peculiar in the sense of, of, you obviously need to him a peculiar sense of kind of funny, funny peculiar. And they try to work backwards, as you rightly say, to his childhood, to explain why, and, and of course they felt that their explanation, explained the favour of conflicts, because the whole thing was... here was a man with an almighty father. Who saw himself as Jesus, really, and although Jesus came to save the world, he saved the world in a rather masochistic manner, by getting crucified. Well, that's exactly what happened to Woodrow Wilson. He came to save the world in nineteen eighteen, but he got crucified by Clements or Lloyd George. They made mincemeat of fourteen points. And er, so it's, it's an attempt to work backwards, but it has a certain justification in analytic technique. But of course, as you and er, er er, rightly said, in an analysis you would always be able to confirm these interpretations from the patient, because in the end, of course, psychoanalysis is done by the patient, the analyst doesn't do it. The analyst normally just helps. In the end, the analysis is gonna occur, it's the patient who, who really doesn't analyze their ego comes to grips with the unconscious. Of course, in a book you can't handle them, and you can't handle them when the subject is dead. So that will, corroborating dimension of psychoanalysis, what the patient does for himself and cannot possibly count, and as you rightly say, this leaves analytic biography erm, in a, in a kind of limbo. Which is, I really do unsatisfactory. And er, one has to admit, when you look at the literature of like, you know Gandhi, and and this kind of thing, and a lot of it's psycho-history stuff. Erm, you can't help feeling that there has been a mistake. Is that your impression of this? No one does that, yes, that's erm... Well, what, why do you think [speaker002:] Why? Erm, just having different it's different than what [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it's different than what people normally think [speaker001:] Yes, it's interesting you see, if you, if you can compare Freud with other writers who are in the same kind of area and league like. Why do people put up with anything from. Er, we know that systematically seduced a lot of his female patients. He forced his wife to put up with having his mistress living in the house with them. Unfortunate woman erm, er, he as long as they were winning the war, was, was open in his admiration of Hitler and the Nazis. His none of this is ever mentioned about, you know, mention to anybody, and there's er, you know, er, you know, he's one of the good guys. But er, if Freud had done any of that, you'd never hear the end of it. Freud, Nazi lover, you know, Freud, seducer, all this kind of stuff. People would go on about. Erm, and yet erm people like could get away with it. Er, you know, great ethologist, local supporter of the Nazis before World War Two. All forgotten afterwards. Somehow is an okay man. Okay total crap about the aggression of something, a book on aggression. Totally wrong. Nobody animal er behaviour accepts that, that, that nonsense any more. Yeah, you know is okay, he's an okay name. But erm, Sigmund Freud as you rightly say, a moment there's anything you can see wrong if, certainly happens to Darwin. You can have hardly few weeks or months go by when you see some, you know er, latest lunatic disproof of Darwin, you know, appears in the press. Everyone says, oh I know Darwin was wrong. It's almost always crap. The latest book was total crap. I mean it really was. It should never got any, any attention in the press, yet there was all bits in the Sunday Times, Darwin disproved. The reason could be, of course, as you say, that, that people like Darwin and Freud have made really important discoveries and that's why nobody can leave them alone.,, basically crappy people, crappy people. And do you know, so what, so what, you just forget about that. There've been plenty of people like that, all down history, and plenty of them psychologists, who've had lunatic and silly ideas that everyone's forgotten about. But... [speaker002:] take the time just to study [speaker001:] Oh, surely... That, that, that's one of the big, that's one of the big problems. It could be of course, that we're too near to them, because if you think about it, this has happened to most great pioneers in, in science, they were, for the first erm, certainly for the first century, there's often a tremendous er, rejection. I mean take erm, people like Copernicus, er, Galileo and Newton. If, if you look at their work, for about the first hundred years after all of them, their work was widely, er, disparaged and rejected. Then after about a hundred years, suddenly people seemed to change their, to change their minds about it. Of course, the hundred years is only just up for Darwin and not yet up for Freud, depending on when you start the hundred years it makes a. Erm, the er, there seems to be kind of latency period when great, innovations in human thought are followed by considerable turbulence and upset, and the figure responsible becomes a kind of er, you know bogey person, that, that, that, that people get, get perhaps that's certainly true of Darwin, though I think it's abating now. But er, it was certainly true of er, even be true of people like Einstein, you know, the tremendous anti-Einstein ruled particularly in Germany which denounced it. It was Jewish and so on, and because Einstein was Jewish and therefore he had to be more Jewish science and erm... there was a book published called fifty against Einstein. Einstein's comment was, one would have been enough [LAUGHTER] and as usual of course, Einstein was right. One would have been enough, if they had any good arguments or data which er they didn't have. I erm, I suppose this is, this is a phenomenon of human history. The trouble with Woodrow Wilson, of course, is if you want to get some, get Freud, well, this book is very handy, because as you've seen, it does solve all your problems. My guess is that in about twenty or thirty years' time, it would be reprinted and people would start to re-think, oh well, perhaps this is not so... True. But, but in writing historical erm, analysis and, and biography, presumably people, I mean, people can't help er writing, writing history, and trying to answer questions, like, why did Woodrow Wilson erm, not the fourteen points through, and presumably, one possible explanation is the kind of Freud Bullett approach, and presumably if you can find erm, relevant data and if you convince, and if you can convince that that's plausible, it's a legitimate thing to attempt to do. We are not saying, that necessarily it's the right thing to do, but it seems to me people are going to do it anyway, aren't they. People are anyway going to try and look for,lo look for explanations, and it may be that, you know, in fifty or a hundred years' time, peoples insight into, into Freud's findings are different. And this is my personal view, as you know I think that people see, er, Freud completely differently in fifty or a hundred years' time. Possibly because Freud himself, you now, was misunderstood. To such a large extent some of the things were misunderstood that he discovered. And when people see psychoanalysis in a different content, then they might look back to things Freud and Bullett studies, and say, well, perhaps it wasn't so amusing after all. Erm, the... sorry one thing I was going say before we finish, because is our only American here, and since Woodrow Wilson was a great American. What's the, what kind of impression have you got from, er you know, from your education and, and er and trying to, focus at home about Woodrow Wilson? How does he seem today, by America? Does he, is he regarded as a great figure, or... Mm. [speaker002:] Erm, he is erm regarded as in terms of erm, he tried so hard and just [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah, Right, be with you in a sec. Yeah. Yes Yep. That's right. That must be the, that must be the consensus [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Because I asked in the other classes, three or four American students, and I asked them the same question. [speaker002:] It's very... [speaker001:] And they gave the same answer [speaker002:] The history erm, you know America, history of very interesting and erm, [speaker001:] Oh, really, oh are you? Er [speaker002:] Between the wars, and you didn't know this that erm loads of the history that I read here in Britain very different from the history [speaker001:] Yeah. So they, so do you think there's a tendency for Americans still to kind of idealize Wilson, but for Europeans to be a bit more cynical. [speaker002:] Well, I think not that they're afraid not to be but... [speaker001:] Well, I think they have a lot to do, quite a lot to do with it. [speaker002:] obviously, that erm, I just think that... I don't know, it, it's very different from. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Whereas God is not always really always the truth reality [speaker001:] Mm. Yes. [speaker002:] this is history that you really believe it. [speaker001:] Sure. Yes. [speaker002:] But, at the same time, you should go some place else [speaker001:] To get a different view [speaker002:] To get a different view, and yet I... it's been very interesting it's been very interesting you know what I mean, you know, always. I nearly cost her a and she don't know. [speaker001:] That's true, that's true, yes, sure, yes, yes [speaker002:] Not fair. It's on a personal level [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well, it, it's just coming up to three, er, well done. Congratulations and apologies. As I said I won't do this next year. Not unless the book comes out again. Can I remind who isn't here. Right, if you see tell her... Yes,. Now if you see tell her how much we missed her. Er, next week we're gonna miss her even more, because she's supposed to be doing the paper. As we'll see another... if this was a black book of Freud's, and in some ways you would say this was one of the blackest. The other blackest, other blackest book is on next week, when we shall see Freud, erm psychoanalysing not Woodrow Wilson, but Moses. So don't miss it folks. And certainly, make sure doesn't. Thanks. [speaker002:] Erm, I've managed to write an essay or two, would you...

[David Koresh:] [sound of burning and dramatic music] [reading] Revelation. And I looked to behold a pale horse and his name that sat on him was Death. [] [John:] David Koresh, like Jesus Christ, died aged thirty three. British followers of Koresh are facing trial for murder. Tonight Panorama has new evidence about the Waco tragedy. [David Koresh:] For the great day of his wrath is come. [theme music leading to triumphant climax] [rock music] [John:] David Koresh was an uneducated product of Rural Texas. He liked rock music, cars, guns and teenage girls. But to the Branch Davidian Sect he was the Lamb of God. Today there is dispute about how far he caused his and his followers deaths, or they were victims of a needless tragedy. The American government has just brought out two new reports providing fresh evidence about the life and death of the man who called himself the sinful Messiah. [rock music] Koresh lives on in the hearts of such Branch Davidians as survived. Two of them revisit the site of the Mount Carmel centre, their former home outside Waco, that Koresh renamed Ranch Apocalypse. They've come to look for their belongings.... Janet had been a Branch Davidian for years before Koresh came along. [Janet:] There's not much left is [LAUGHTER] there []. Just a heap of rubbish, hard to believe that there were over a hundred people living in there, is there? [John:] Her husband is in jail in Waco with the other men, soon to go on trial. Sheila lost her husband and four of here seven children in the fire. The site was bulldozed immediately afterwards. Last week the Justice Department's report reaffirmed that the fire was deliberately started inside. Most survivors dispute that. If the cause of the tragedy is contentious, the scale of it is not. Eighty four people died here on April the nineteenth, of whom at least twenty were young children. Twelve of the youngest were found still wrapped in the charred bones of their mothers' arms. Of all the dead about twenty four were British. And of the Adults who left during the siege, or who managed to survive the fire, three Britons will soon go on trial for conspiracy to murder the federal agents who were killed or wounded in the initial shoot out. Many of the Branch Davidians seem to be educated and articulate people. The question remains. How did people like that come to finish up in the holocaust that happened here?... The Davidians split off from the Sabbath Day Adventist church in the nineteen thirties. They take the book of Revelation more literally and believe the second coming of Christ is imminent. Among the wreckage here are the belongings of families who came from Britain and from all over the world. [Janet:] I like to have the memories of them [speaker004:] Yeah I don't. [Janet:] but you hate to think at the same time what happened how they were burning you hate to think of [speaker004:] Yeah I I [Janet:] those things. [John:] The government calls them a cult because of their devotion to David Koresh. [speaker004:] Their spirits are with us and that we got to keep on going. [John:] and their loyalty remains. Having lost your husband and four of your children, you don't think that David Koresh might have been er a unwise leader? A misguided figure? [speaker005:] No, no, no. He's he's always been very kind, very considerate always very mindful of our sins. I don't think so, no. [John:] Don't you ever feel that he dragged your family in to this terrible holocaust unnecessarily? [speaker004:] No sir. No sir I think that we were all there we all stayed because God would take care of us. [Janet:] We still believe that there's going to be a kingdom over in Israel and that David Koresh is going to come back and be the head of that kingdom and that it's going to be a peaceful place as prophecized in the Bible. It talks about the heathen being astounded and being envious and jealous because they are going to see peace and harmony and happiness and this is what we are looking forward to this is why we're not mourning, why we're not you know all upset because we know this is going to come. [dramatic music] [John:] Three British Branch Davidian men are in Waco jail and will be tried for murder soon. I spoke on the telephone to one of them Livingstone who comes from Nottingham. [Livingstone:] This is no different to the Christians that lived back two thousand years ago. It was either the system or God that's what er the position of the F B I put us in. We did not fear death at all. The thing about it is that it is not death of the body that is important to us, it's the soul. [John:] David Koresh grew up in the Bible belt. He was born Vernon, the illegitimate son of a fourteen year old girl. Brought up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church he would later be expelled and join the Branch Davidians. His mother, now Mrs Bonnie, knew young Vernon's vocation was to be a religious leader. He was a failure at school, but as a teenager he became obsessed with Christianity. He would pray for hours and memorize large sections of the Bible. His mother remembers his growing talent as a preacher. [Bonnie:] I knew it had to be a gift from God. And all a prophet means is a mouthpiece of God, it's nothing he's just a man you know but I felt that God was leaving him I really did. He amazed me, it was awesome. [John:] He described himself as the sinful Messiah. [Bonnie:] Mhm. [John:] What does that mean? [Bonnie:] Well [LAUGHTER] he he he was a sinful person, as we all are erm, I think he did not as the way I understand it, you know Jesus came perfect in everything but he had a he had a a message to give and he could give it better, I think because he had experienced so many things. The sins of the world and all this kind of stuff. [John:] Waco sheriffs officers close in on Mount Carmel, not this year but six years ago. Vernon was arrested for leading an armed attack on the then Branch Davidian leader one George who'd thrown him off the property. Shots were exchanged and firearms seized. In a bizarre leadership contest had dug up a dead Davidian and challenged his rival Vernon to bring the body back to life. In court the jury concluded that was insane. Vernon David Koresh to be, escaped conviction because the jury couldn't agree on his guilt. The vital evidence was removed from the Waco courthouse and guns were returned to him. George had been toppled as Davidian leader. Vernon returned to Mount Carmel with his young wife and a handful of followers, the undisputed leader of the sect. To consolidate his power he needed new members and his recruiters fanned out across the world. Koresh's closest aid, right up to the end was Steve. He flew to London in nineteen eighty eight. He headed for the Seventh Day Adventist College, New Bold in Berkshire. had been a student here back in the seventies before he was expelled for getting drunk. [speaker008:] came as in the Christian community would say a wolf in sheep clothing. No one knew of him coming, hardly anyone knew who he was. The first thing he did he made friends amongst the young men in the college. [John:] He was a latter-day John the Baptist preparing the way for David Koresh. A former Adventist himself, he was well equipped to give the students he met Koresh's new slant on the book of Revelation. [speaker009:] I've pondered over a couple of the things. [speaker010:] Good. You know as an Adventist do you know what it says in the book of Revelation? [speaker009:] Yeah [speaker010:] Revelation fourteen and lo a lion was standing on the Mount Zion and with him a Hundred and Forty and four thousand which were redeemed from the Earth. Any man that worships the beast and the image the very same shall taste of the wine of the wrath of God. [speaker005:] He took things out of context and everything focused on Armageddon, the end of the world, apocalypse. Koresh zeroed in on this and tried to bring it closer to where we are to make it more real so it was uppermost in the minds of all his followers. [John:] When Koresh himself came to Britain banned from New Bold he had to hold meetings in peoples homes. [David Koresh:] God in the flesh, do you know who I am? God in the flesh. [John:] New Bold college couldn't prevent its students from going along and some young Seventh Day Adventists were predisposed to be receptive. After all Koresh's apocalyptic vision, his talk of the seven seals that only the lamb of God can unlock, sounded like refinements of what they already believed. Dissatisfied with mainstream Christianity they were impressed by his apparent certainty, but he persuaded his potential British followers with more than just his Biblical knowledge. [David Koresh:] What better sinner knows a sinner than a godly sinner, ha? Gradually the meetings got longer and longer until eventually they began, not in the evening, but they began in the morning and they lasted from perhaps ten in the morning until the early hours of the next day. Course people were very tired. The the evening I was there there were about twenty five people in the room and people were falling asleep. [John:] But what's the point of holding a meeting that goes on for more than twelve hours? [David Koresh:] Well I I only see one point and that is to try to confuse somebody, to brainwash them. [John:] But those who accepted Koresh's teaching deny they were being brainwashed. [David Koresh:] Every sin Isaiah says, I'm guilty of, I agree. I'm perfect to give you this message. [John:] As a recruiting exercise the meetings were a success one who joined then, now a nurse, was Janet. We were not spell bound by David. You know we were intelligent people who asked intelligent questions. Now remember we all of us came from the background that, you know this world was going to come to an end very soon. That God was going to do something catastrophic, Okay? Erm exactly what, we didn't know, we were al we all knew a little bit about the seals, however we had studied about the seals in a different way and it didn't make sense and we were young people who who were searching. As well as Janet, four students at the meeting became Branch Davidian recruiters in Britain. One was her brother, theology student John who recruited in Manchester. He was to die in the fire. Livingstone from Nottingham was a former Seventh Day Adventist pastor. As we've seen he's now in prison. Cliff from Derby was another New Bold student, a gifted artist he too would die in the fire. And Diana, John former girlfriend, and a psychology graduate. She had two brothers and two sisters at home in Manchester. [music and singing] Manchester South Seventh Day Adventist Church. The family used to come here. The father Sam, a builder still worships here on a Saturday, the Adventist sabbath. All five children were musical and destined for academic success and professional careers. John was able to convince most of the family to follow the sinful Messiah. [telephone being dialled, overlaps next part of speech] Diana returned after her first visit to Waco to go about recruiting Manchester Adventists using her father's church membership lists. [Janet:] Hello it's me. How are you? [John:] Her father was the only member of the family to reject Koresh's teaching and the only one still alive. The fire in Waco killed Diana, both her brothers, both her sisters and her mother Zilla. [speaker004:] When she decided, with the rest of the children, to go to Waco Monday and they told me the Sunday. Just a few hours, I would say before, less than twenty four hours before they went. That they were going and that nearly killed me, that nearly killed me because I knew then this was serious. Very serious. [John:] This came as a shock to you? [speaker004:] It was more than a shock I put my head in my in my hand and I remember kneeling right at this spot and just crying my heart out. [John:] You are a bereaved husband and a bereaved father. [speaker004:] Definitely I am. [John:] In in in this situation, have you apportioned blame for the deaths of your family? Whom do you blame? [speaker004:] I The main There are two persons whom the Devil used as instruments in the destruction of my family, equally. And one is They call him David Koresh, and the next is a woman in London call Vicky. I think that's her name. [John:] Why do you blame her? [speaker004:] Because her home was a headquarters for Vernon in Britain. [John:] Victorine is vacating her flat in North London. It was never a headquarters as such, but David Koresh, the self-styled lamb of God, stayed here when he visited London. And here he held Bible meetings that convinced Vicky, and over thirty others, to come and join him in Waco. She was allowed to leave the Mount Carmel centre halfway through the siege.... Speaking for the first time Vicky is now disillusioned with the man she once thought was a prophet and is writing a book about it. [Livingstone:] I still believe that that someone is to come by the name of David and setting up of God's kingdom but but [John:] But it's not David Koresh? [Livingstone:] No it's not David Koresh. [John:] Vicky was filmed at the Mount Carmel centre, last year, by an Australian cameraman. She lived here on and off for three years. Conditions were primitive. There was no sanitation. Life consisted of laborious work, punctuated by lengthy sessions of Bible study addressed by the prophet himself. [David Koresh:] I will the Lord has said unto me thou art my son. This day have I begotten thee. Ha. Someone's the son of God, someone [John:] It would become clear to Vicky that Koresh's contempt for the outside world, that he called Babylon, included contempt for some of its laws and for normal standards of behaviour. [David Koresh:] Someone is going to rule whether the big world likes it or not. Thou shalt break them with the rod of iron, thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. The guy's tough. He's got more than guns. He's got God. [Livingstone:] Sometimes his Bible meetings are very interesting and another time it can be very boring. He would tell us about his love affairs and things what he did. You know just raw, you know. What he did, how how he'd do it and things like that. And you know children, men and children would be there and he just don't care. [John:] Sorry Wh what How would you mean, what he did? [Livingstone:] You know, how You know how he make love, he would tell us. [John:] The Mount Carmel compound in the Texas countryside outside Waco, had a despotic leader. Once his followers, many educated people, were convinced that Koresh was a prophet, a mouth piece of God they would do anything he asked of them. Koresh had married Rachel who was the fourteen year old daughter of another Branch Davidian. Together they had three children, all of them would die in the fire. But Koresh believed himself entitled to all the Davidian women. [Livingstone:] David established that erm in Isaiah, two twenty two, it says Seize Eve from man, and this is one of the prophecies that that David showed us that er shows the man, or the women, that they have to leave their wife or If it's the woman, she has to leave her husband and her and her boyfriend and become his wife. [John:] So he used a verse of Isaiah [Livingstone:] Yes. [John:] to justify sleeping with all the other mens wives? [Livingstone:] Yes and all the men give give their wife to David. [John:] So how many of them got pregnant? [Livingstone:] Many many of them. [John:] So how many children do you think David Koresh had? [Livingstone:] David had many children. [John:] So so that if any of the women were pregnant at Mount Carmel, David Koresh was the father. [Livingstone:] Yes because all all Every every man give their wife up. [John:] Even Koresh's closest aide, Steve, had to give up his young wife Judy to the sinful Messiah. She had Koresh's baby and called herself Judy Koresh. The whole harem was known as The House of David. [dramatic music] But Koresh didn't just take Davidians wives. He demanded their young daughters too, and most parents consented. Koresh was discreet about his sex with underage children and they left his room in the early dawn. But one Branch Davidian, who later went to the police, was a witness to what went on. [Bonnie:] He came to me He had a problem, he and I were good friends and he said that erm... that this one girl s erm Michelle, was his favourite wife and that he had been with her since erm she was twelve. The problem that he was having was that she was his legal wife's sister and there was some rivalry or jealousy developing between his legal wife and er this other girl and he wasn't sure what he what to do about it. [John:] What did you think about David Koresh sleeping with twelve year old children? [speaker008:] Well I think it was terrible but the parents agree with it. Both mother and father, they agree that erm that David should do that because, you see, David established that he is the only he is the only man on this Earth who who who have er holy seed in him. [John:] Holy seed. [speaker008:] Yes and [John:] That's what he called it? [speaker008:] Yeah he call it the holy seed and that he could have righteous children. [John:] If Koresh broke the law, it was the County sheriff who should have intervened. The Waco sheriff habitually turned a blind eye to Koresh's activities. But when Mark defected and made allegations of child abuse sheriff Jack eventually sent social workers to visit the Branch Davidians. [speaker009:] There was really no evidence of er of child abuse. There was only allegations and and again I say today that we have not ever found any any proof of any child abuse out there. That's not to say there wasn't child abuse now, I I have my own thoughts and in my own feelings feel that there could have been some child abuse especially ch sexual abuse. Erm, but we could never prove that. [John:] Wayne was David Koresh's legal advisor, but took his turn in helping construct the flimsy wooden building. Thinking himself safe from the law Koresh committed more excesses. was one of the so called mighty men. King David of the Old Testament had mighty men to enforce discipline, so did David Koresh. There was a paddle with which Koresh beat his followers and he intimidated them by openly boasting, in crude detail, about even worse brutality. Upon Julie who feared for her young daughter and wanted to leave. [Livingstone:] What I am saying here now is not hearsay, this is what David telled us in his Bible meetings. What he did. He took Julie upstairs in his room and he he push her he push her on his bed and... he he raped her.... He said to us that... you know that is dick was so hard and he told us everything of what he did to her, he push his dick inside of her and he said he was very very rough with her and she was crying and crying and crying. [John:] For entertainment Koresh forced the Branch Davidians to watch violent and horrific videos, usually of films about the Vietnam war, to instil a militant and defensive mentality. [sounds of violence and gunfire] Koresh had guns from the beginning and he made his mighty men in to trained marksman. [speaker010:] His weapons were part of his his message. You see if There is going to be a war, and God's people had also to be warriors and so there was that element of religion as well that that we had to be trained as warriors for the Lord. [speaker009:] On several occasions they had er displayed guns where people would back into their driveway or er show some indication that they were going on to their property, then guns were revealed, people coming out of the the buildings out there with guns and what have you. There was some reference to it as being their country. I I would not go out there on to their property without letting them have knowledge that I was coming to their property. [John:] But of all Koresh's dubious activities it was gun dealing that would bring him in to conflict with authority. One of his members had a dealers license and drove to cities like Houston to buy and sell at gun fairs.... Koresh financed his sect by trading in weapons. A common place enough business in Texas.... This was Koresh's business premises. A building near Mount Carmel called the Magbag. Here Koresh took receipt of mail order fire arms from all over America including machine guns, like the A K Forty Seven, the simple kits that convert semi-automatic weapons into automatics and even hand grenades. Fully assembled they are all illegal. Only when a package burst open did the sheriff receive a tip off from the postal service U P S. [speaker009:] Er U P S er called us one time on some hand grenades hulls er the kind that you would use sat on your desk for a paperweight. A box of them had had er they were delivering had erm They had damaged the box and some of them had fallen out. And they called us to go out and look at them. They were not the illegal so we couldn't stop them from delivering them. Then we received information, black powder and and er other er types of er conversion kits for semi automatic rifles to convert them to automatic rifles, and that kind of thing. All of this information we were giving to the federal people, A T F, who are responsible for investigating and control these kind of activities. [John:] As a result this house opposite Koresh's compound was occupied in January by agents of the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms bureau, the A T F. An agent called infiltrated Bible classes and a log was kept of Koresh's movements. Warrants were issued to arrest Koresh and to search Mount Carmel for illegal weapons. [dramatic music] Koresh used to regularly drive into Waco in his black sports car, he had no fear of arrest. Last week a government report said that if the A T F had arrested Koresh in town, all the mayhem that followed need never of happened and those who died might still have been alive. Instead the A T F decided to mount its biggest ever raid. Over a hundred armed agents set out for Mount Carmel. The raid was meant to have speed, simplicity and surprise. Speed, the A T F were transported in cattle trucks that were visible from miles away. Simplicity, the raid was preceded by three military helicopters that were fired upon before the cattle trucks even got here. Surprise, the raid had been talked about in Waco for days. The news media were alerted and were following the police convoy. One television news cameraman got lost near here and asked a postman for directions adding, there's going to be a big gunfight with those religious nuts over there. The postman thanked him for the warning and drove back to Mount Carmel. He was David, David Koresh's brother-in-law and one of the mighty men. [sounds of intense automatic weapons fire] Withering fire from the Davidians automatic weapons greeted the A T F men when they tried to enter the building. Last weeks report shows that not only was Koresh forewarned of the raid but the A T F's undercover agent had told that to the raid's commanders. The report says they should have called off the operation once the element of surprise was lost. [sounds of sporadic fire] With both sides suffering dead and wounded, Davidian lawyer Wayne, put in a desperate call to the deputy sheriff, Larry who he knew. Against a background of gunfire the call was recorded. [David Koresh:] Yeah this is Lieutenant may I help you? [John:] Yeah, they're shooting at us in Mount Carmel. [David Koresh:] Mount Carmel? [John:] Yeah, tell them there are children and women in here and to call it off. [David Koresh:] Oh man, I can hear the bullets. God almighty I knew this. Wayne? [John:] Tell them to call it off! [David Koresh:] Who is this, Wayne? [John:] Tell them to pull back! [David Koresh:] What? [John:] fight to the last man They started firing first. cease fire. Oh shit. [David Koresh:] What's the matter? [John:] They're What do you think they're doing all this firing on us right now. [David Koresh:] Alright, I'm trying to make contact with the forces now, standby. [intense gunfire] [John:] Why do you think such extreme violence was used against law enforcement officers when they arrived to carry out their duties? [David Koresh:] Well, er because it was provoked. Because the A T F provoked it. Violence begets v violence and when the A T F assaulted er those people, they defended themselves. [Janet:] When you think about a hundred plus people inside of a compound with all of those weapons, you need a a mass a large scale operation. The important thing was that it go forward only with the element of surprise. Unfortunately the element of surprise was lost and the operation still went forward. [John:] Ronald report concedes that with four A T F men killed and sixteen wounded the raid was a fiasco. But there could be no let up now. Koresh was confronting not just the local sheriff but the government of the United States. Federal officers were dead. A tragic process began to unfold and faced with a entrancement they could not understand, officials made a series of misjudgments that would end in an even greater loss of life. David Koresh and his followers were where they wanted to be, inside the fortress of Mount Carmel. They settled down for a long siege and so did the outside world. President Clinton replaced the A T F with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the F B I. Meanwhile the army provided armoured vehicles and helicopters. The aim was to get the Davidians to give themselves up. But over the succeeding weeks only a handful came out the rest chose to stay. [speaker004:] Everybody else for a look through the field glasses, it doesn't cost you [John:] Last week's report for the Justice Department acknowledges that the F B I's tactics didn't work. Instead of a swift resolution the siege dragged on into its second month. Initially the F B I's fear was that there would be a mass suicide. When Vicky came out after three weeks she confirmed that fear. [Livingstone:] Evette, she brought er a green thing A round thing and she gave it to one of the ladies, I cannot remember which one. Saying that erm you know th you know that it's a grenade and it's going to be quick death. [John:] Even in that early part of the siege a decision had been made that you were all going to die. [Livingstone:] we are all going to die then they all they they that th that they're going to blow the place up. So a mass suicide had erm you know the people were planning a mass suicide in the first few days of the siege. [John:] Is this because David Koresh had persuaded everybody that their lives would have to end in this siege? [Livingstone:] Well David said that we were at the end, everyone believed that they were that the time has come that we was at the end of the world. [John:] If that was the mood in the early days of the siege later on the F B I knew that Koresh's attitude may have changed. Koresh's lawyer,, were one of the few the F B I allowed to speak to him. gave Panorama evidence that Koresh intended to survive the siege. The tape of a phone conversation, late in the siege, that has not been heard publicly before. [David Koresh:] This is what my focus is, once I go out of here I want to go out walking. I told them, you know, I had no intention of committing suicide, I'm not that way. [Livingstone:] Let me tell you the word there spreading is that you have vowed to kill all everybody. Er [David Koresh:] That is baloney. [Livingstone:] that there would be a mass suici, I know it it's i [David Koresh:] that's not that's not even sane. [John:] Koresh told that he'd give himself up once he'd written his prophetic interpretation of the seven seals. We know Koresh started work because the computer disk containing his first chapter survived the fire. Although the F B I thought this another delaying tactic, it helped persuade them that mass suicide was unlikely, and that it was therefore safe to force a conclusion. At dawn on April the nineteenth, fifty one days into the siege, their patience ran out. President Clinton authorized the F B I's tanks to bash holes in the walls, spray C S gas and fire in gas canisters. Over loud speakers the F B I told the Davidians it was not an assault, just an attempt to force them out. But the Davidians stayed put. Last week's report would call the entire gassing operation a failure. [Bonnie:] What you had was, F B I agents who were trained to be proactive, to be to do things, to force a conclusion. They didn't have to do something. It's this macho attitude, we've got to bring this to a conclusion, that I'm arguing about. I think the best conclusion would have happened if they'd just let it happen, rather than trying to force the issue on April the nineteenth. Er it was the it was the wrong decision. [John:] Six hours after the gassing operation began, around midday, the Mount Carmel centre burst into flames in three different places. About a hundred were inside, just nine escaped. One told be his experience, on the phone from Waco prison, British survivor, Renos. [speaker008:] Er I myself went for the nearest exit which was out a window, I assume everyone else erm panicked and I could hear quite a few people running running down the corridor from the first floor. Erm I myself came out a first floor window erm a lot of a lot of entrances had already been blocked by the tanks [sounds of burning] [John:] How did the fire start? At the time the government didn't expect a mass suicide. But F B I agents are now hinting they knew the fire might happen. They had listening devices in the building, and early on the nineteenth allegedly heard Koresh ordering paraffin to splashed around. The Justice Department won't release those tapes but its investigator has no doubts. [speaker009:] There is substantial evidence that er demonstrates that the fire was caused by those inside the compound. Not just caused by them but that it was intentionally set. Er we do have interviews with the number of members who had exited the compound indicating that there was er inf er erm m petroleum type products that were being spread around the compound. Er that the fires were set at about the time that the erm er that the armoured began breaching the walls of the compound. I think the evidence will be overwhelming that that fire was set intentionally by Koresh and h some of his core followers. [John:] But the British eye witness, Renos, says that the fire was started by accident. [speaker008:] I was in there with the flame and er there was no erm for any erm or anything like that. I'm not sure if David keep us from erm the building, we know then that there was no [John:] But as the fire here at mount Carmel started in three separate places, the F B I is probably right that it was deliberate. But there is no proof of mass suicide. The question remains therefore whether the F B I was wise to force the issue with the gas attack or whether it aggravated the situation. The Justice Department report exonerates the F B I. But many in America have received that report sceptically. To avoid an agonizing death by fire, many Davidians shot one another, or themselves. David Koresh had already been wounded. F B I agents now believe that is was his trusted lieutenant who had given Koresh everything including his own wife, who shot the sinful Messiah in the head with a rifle, before turning the gun on himself. No weapon was found near the body of David Koresh. A high velocity rifle lay beside the remains of Steve. The flag of Texas symbolized the reassertion of state authority over Koresh's kingdom. What little remained of victims of the fire was carried away for identification and autopsy. The survivors and the government cannot agree about responsibility for their deaths, among them young Cliff,, John, the family, Wayne and four of his children. [speaker010:] Why did all So many people have to die like this? Why did they You know, when you think that they were in er One place there was thirty two. In that square place that was over there, it was a pantry, some of them were so fused together they were holding each other. There was like five or six bodies at one point. They realized later that these are messed together. Such a heat, and such a a closeness, they were afraid. They would not have done this. They wouldn't have allowed them, you know, didn't want to kill themselves like that. They didn't want to die. We all wanted to live, I know my children too. [speaker005:] In order to make his own sort of erm prophetic vision come true. Erm he decided to stage a fire in which it would make it appear as though er this was a result of some sort of erm armed confrontation between law enforcement and his group. But who Actually he wasn't given what he wanted, which I believe was an armed conflict between law enforcement and his group in which he expected to die, in which he expected his membership to die. [John:] The shattered mementoes of the sect, decay on the devastated site of Mount Carmel. Koresh has been demonized by the government, and his followers ridiculed as cultists. They became the object of public outrage and loathing. And very few stopped to think about what had happened. [David Koresh:] The true test of a free society is not in how it treats its best citizens, but in how it treats its worst, its most despised. And if we can do that to someone because, well they're religious nuts, they're they're a little bit different. Or they're a lot different. Then we can do it to you or me or anyone else, and that troubles me. [sombre music] [John:] What remained of David Koresh was secretly buried here, in this unmarked grave in the small Texas town where he grew up. The Branch Davidian Sect still exists. Its members believe Koresh will return soon and today they are still actively trying to make converts, in Britain and wherever people are susceptible to the appeal of a Sinful Messiah. [theme music, reprise, to end of job]

[Julian Pettifer:] [theme music. engine noise] In the past decade Amazonia has experienced one of the biggest gold rushes it's ever seen. Fortune seekers, up to a million of them, have inflicted terrible damage upon the environment, on public health and law and order. Now another threat demonstrates just how frightening is the real price of gold. [music] What is gold? An empty bubble. Bewitching, transient shining trouble. [music] This is Cripo Rison a frontier town that serves numerous gold workings or Garrimpos The itinerant gold diggers that flock here are called Garrimperos When they visit town, Garrimperos come to sell their gold, in the numerous gold dealers' shops that line the single street. [car noise] With the proceeds of the gold they buy provisions, heading toward numerous pharmacies for drugs to combat diseases, notably malaria, that afflict them all. And they come to buy mining equipment, pumps and pies and engines to extract gold bearing gravel form the rivers and streams. Also on the shopping list are sex, booze and gambling. So bars and brothels are plentiful. Even those that live in Cripo Rison find little to commend the place. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] Cripo Rison is a filthy, violent and inaccessible place on the banks of a polluted river. It has no hospital, no doctor, and save for the police, no government presence of any kind. It's a place you'd be happy to leave, unless you're a Garrimpero who must head back to work. Some of the human wreckage from the Garrimpos washes up at the hospital at Itti Tuba Hundreds line up daily for malaria tests. Children are often born with the disease. It's no coincidence that malaria took hold as the gold rush intensified. Conditions in the Garrimpos made it inevitable. Here blood tests will confirm the type of the infection and determine the treatment.... [speaker002:] [speaking portuguese] [Julian Pettifer:] Dr is the local malaria specialist. On his hospital rounds he routinely treats Garrimperos in the terminal stages of the disease. This patient has been infected more than twenty times. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] Nearby is a man who paid the price of gold with a bullet in the back, A victim of Garrimpero gun law. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] As well as victims of violence, many suffer from venereal diseases. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech]... [Julian Pettifer:] It's hard to believe but this river, the Cristolino is part of the same Tappajoss river system where Garrimperos have caused such devastation. Cristolino by name, the river is still crystalline by nature. Why? It's protected by nature reserves on both banks.... This is Amazonia as it used to be, before the coming of the settlers and the seekers after gold.... Appearances are deceptive. Even the Cristolino river is polluted, and by something far more dangerous than mud. The fish that swim here carry in their flesh a poison that can make you very ill. And if consume enough of it, will kill you. That poison is mercury. Messenger of the gods, quicksilver, stuff that fascinates the child in all of us. And yet, with the exception of lead, this poisons more people every year than any other heavy metal. And it's now found in disturbingly high quantities, not only in the fish, but in the air and the soil and the water throughout the Tappajoss river system. And where does it come from? From the Garrimpos Just a few miles down stream, the silvery waters of the Cristolino flow into the Tellisperos river, and vanish, stained by it's burden of silt. Once this murky torrent was crystalline too. But with the coming of the Garrimpos it's grown steadily filthier and more toxic, contaminated by things visible and invisible. Oil and detergent, as well as mud and mercury. [music] And it's the same story in many other rivers throughout the Amazon basin. A vast area that drains one third of South America and covers half the land surface of Brazil. Up to twenty five percent of all water that drains off the Earth, is carried by the Amazon. And now, sadly, much of that global resource is contaminated by mercury. Worse affected by the gold rush than most rivers is the Tappajoss and it's tributaries. More gold has been produce here in this present gold rush than in any other part of Brazil. [car noise] It's Garrimpos like this that are doing the damage. Polluting the river with mud and mercury. This is one among thousands of similar rafts, or balsas, that employ divers.... Working on the river bed with a hose attached to a powerful pump, the diver hoovers up gold- bearing alluvium. This is pumped onto the raft to be processed. The alluvium passes down a sluice where particles of gold, because they're heavier, are retained behind wooden ripples, and up on the carpet that lines the sluice. When the time comes to recover the gold, the ripples are removed and the carpet is shaken. It's at this stage that mercury comes into the picture. It's unique property is to bind with gold, however small the particles, to form an amalgam that's easy to collect.... Mercury will be mixed with the sludge to separate the gold. Inevitably, some of it escapes into the river. As a trip down this tributary shows, this is a huge industry. It employs at least a quarter of a million people, in operations large and small. Few will ever get rich, but between them they've produced, in recent years, nearly five hundred tonnes of gold in the Tappajoss region alone. And for every tonne of gold at least twice as much mercury has thought to have been lost into the environment.... Everyone uses mercury and some use it in much larger quantities than others.... Mercury that is not amalgamated with gold, slides easily from them pan, while mercury mixed with gold leaves more reluctantly.... [speaker002:] [speaking portuguese] [Julian Pettifer:] After excess mercury has been run off, the residue is strained through a fine cloth.... This expels any further free mercury.... What's left is the gold that the days work has yielded with an equal mass of mercury. Finally the mercury is burned off using a butane torch.... This job could be done simply and safely using a retort to condense the mercury. But that never happens. As the temperature rises the mercury is driven off as a toxic white gas. has absorbs dangerous amounts of it. Tests show he's carrying ten times the acceptable level of mercury. But then he's been burning gold every few days for ten years. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] In gold shops they also burn off mercury on a huge scale. The law says dealers should recover ninety six percent floats away to be breathed by all and sundry. No one seems to worry. They've come to sell gold and it's the money they're after. Money that will be used in part to buy more mercury, that's supposed to be a controlled substance. According to Brazilian law the responsibility for controlling the sale and the use of mercury lies with the national institute for the environment, IBAMA and in theory these controls are very strict, all importers and dealers are supposed to be registered, and the use of mercury in any process and in whatever quantity, how ever small, requires an official permit. What's more the law specifically forbids the use of mercury in Garrimpos unless they're licensed. Here in Cripo Rison you can buy as much mercury as you like and no questions are asked. I've just bought this little flask, I have no permit, and nobody asked for one. It says here the mercury's for dental purposes, but I don't think there's much doubt what it's actually for. This was once a gold shop. Mercury vapour form gold burning below, wafted into the flat above, and this is what happened to it's occupant.... The mercury caused Manuel sever neurological damage. By the time the cause was discovered, and his condition was diagnosed, it was too late. The received no compensation, and all the expensive medical treatment they've had to pay for themselves. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] Is your father now completely dependent on you to nurse him and look after him? [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] This woman works at a Garrimpo and has also been exposed to mercury vapour. She's worried that she may be in the early stages of mercury poisoning. She's brought her worries to Dr, who's seeing more and more patients with similar symptoms. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech]... [Julian Pettifer:] The destruction of Amazonian forest is all too familiar a story. But it's connection with the gold rush should not be overlooked. It's the search for gold that opens up virgin land with roads and airstrips, and then other settlers follow. This is the result, and it seems there's another connection. Here around Alto Foresta in recent years, hundreds of thousands of acres of virgin forest have been burned and continue to be burned to provide pasture for cattle. On some days the smoke is so thick here that it obscures the sun. To find out what effect all this burning may be having on the upper atmosphere, particularly upon global warming, the Brazilian space institute, in collaboration with NASA from the United States, has been carrying out a research programme. One possibility that's emerged from that research, is that mercury vapour from gold burning may be combining with the ash and the other products of combustion the forest, to produce an even more toxic ingredient in a lethal brew. [music] On a satellite photograph of an area near Alto Foresta ranching and gold mining show up as pink scars on the green of the forest. The large clearing is one hundred and fifty square miles. [music] Sandra is one of a team of scientists trying to find out how mercury levels in the air are influenced by weather and other factors. The team will investigate the human consequences of the mercury pollution.... This work is of special importance for pregnant women who risk fetal damage from mercury. [speaker002:] [speaking portuguese] [Julian Pettifer:] Results so far signal danger ahead. Here mercury levels are one thousand times greater than one would expect in such a remote area.... Although the inhalation of mercury vapour and dust is an obvious hazard, there is another danger that's potentially more long lasting and insidious. Much of the mercury that escapes in to the soil and the air and in to the water, finishes up here in the rivers, and there it reacts with naturally occurring compounds to form a compound called methyl mercury which is far more dangerous to man than is mercury itself. This methyl mercury is absorbed by small organisms in the water which are eaten by fish which are eaten by larger fish, and all the time the poison is being concentrated as it moves up the food chain. In some of the larger and older predator fish concentrations of methyl mercury can be very high need, and of course these are precisely the fish that are most sort after by the fishermen and by their customers. Now if this contaminated fish is eaten in large enough quantities it can cause symptoms of Minimata disease. [music] The disease is named after a terrible industrial accident that occurred at this chemical factory at Minimata in southern Japan. Methyl mercury was accidentally discharged into the sea and as a result the nearby fishing communities suffered terrible consequences. [music] [speaker002:] [crying] [Julian Pettifer:] This child's name is Tomo. Tomo means wisdom. Her mother showed no signs of mercury poisoning at all. Yet this is how Tomo was born. The result of eating contaminated fish. Many children were born with Minimata disease but more than one hundred adults died while thousands were severely disabled. [noise traffic] Although the situation in Amazonia is different there are worrying similarities. Here too fish and shellfish are eaten in large quantities. [market place noises] Here too fish in certain areas are found to contain high concentrations of mercury. In Minimata mercury poisoning was diagnosed first in cats. Here mercury levels in pigs near Garrimpos are disturbingly high. Despite all these danger signals evidence of mercury contamination of people is very limited. Work has been done on contamination of fish and water and air, but little has been done to study it's effect on the human population. In the Amazon research is hampered by the sheer size of the region and by the reluctance of scientists to work here. [children screaming] But one individual researcher has not been deterred.... From his base in Santarem Dr Fernando travels to a number of riverside communities. Today it's the turn of Brazilia Laygal a large village on the banks of the Tappajoss river. Dr is a cardiologist who in the course of his work encountered cases of mercury poisoning. Some came from fishing villages, so he began a clinical study concentrating on fishermen and their families. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] These tests are designed to detect early signs of neurological damage. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaking portuguese] [Julian Pettifer:] The fisherman has high levels of mercury because he catches and eats large fish that lie in undisturbed pools and lagoons where methyl mercury settles, but so far he has no conclusive symptoms. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] In this tranquil and untroubled spot, they've heard the warnings of Dr about mercury but still feel powerless to combat such a mysterious threat. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] If if it seemed advisable not to eat the fish, would that be a big problem for the? [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [happy children] [Julian Pettifer:] Dr comes bearing small gifts for the children. [speaker002:] [speaking portuguese]... [Julian Pettifer:] In return for his balloons, he will ask the children for a lock of hair. Methyl mercury shows up in hair, and by taking samples at regular intervals he can keep track of it's level and how they relate to clinical symptoms when and if they appear.... Hair samples collected by Dr are sent to the institute of biophysics at the Federal University at Rio de Janeiro.... Here they are freeze dried, treated with chemicals and then analyzed.... The hair frequently shows methyl mercury contamination well above safe limits. These findings were confirmed by a joint British-Brazilian scientific team. They ran blood tests on fisherman and came up with equally alarming results. Bad news for the eight hundred thousand people living in the Tappajoss river region. [Rubens:] In some areas we have measured a contamination which is much bigger than in the Minimata incident in the Japan. Er the only reason for the fact that we we didn't have a tragedy is that the population in the in those areas is very sparse. But it's true, we recognize the problem and we are serious trying to avoid it. [music and song] [Julian Pettifer:] This protest song suggests that some at least are aware of the mercury menace and the plight of the rivers and are calling for action. [drums] [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] The price of gold. This piece of street theatre is performed in Sanatrem by members of the Amazon defence group, warning of the dangers of mercury poison through eating contaminated fish. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] The aim of the drama is to do what government is failing to do. Tell the people of the Tappajoss the truth about gold. That it's ruining their river and that mercury could wreck their lives. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] The play is a curiously light hearted account of a fisherman who eats contaminated fish and dies. [speaker002:] [speaking portuguese] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] At Rio's federal university, scientists says that even if the use of mercury ceased, the danger remain. [speaker004:] It would persist for many generations. We've done research in other places and there's mercury from a hundred a hundred and fifty years back. But st it sticks around. [Julian Pettifer:] So to call this a chemical time bomb is not unduly alarmist? [speaker004:] No it's not. [bell ring] [Julian Pettifer:] It's a time bomb that's been ticking for centuries and the fuse has always been gold. This is Auro Preto which means black gold. Built three hundred years ago on the profits of the first gold rush. But those who dug the gold never lived in these fine houses for they were African slaves. They payed for all this with their sweat and their lives, just like the Garrimperos today. [gunfire, celebration] The Portuguese came to Brazil to win souls for Christ and to win gold for the king. In both they succeeded, but at a terrible human cost. [band] The ancestors of those who now process with marching bands, once crouched in rows panning the streams under the eye of armed guards. [band music] Much of the gold dug by the slaves went back to Portugal. Enough remained to build magnificent baroque churches. In this one church hundreds of kilos of gold were used to glorify God. But perhaps more fittingly it might commemorate the slaves that died to win it form the Earth. This church, Santa Ephygenia was where the African slaves came to worship, to pray to the saint to protect them from the dreadful accidents they faced in the mines. As with the Garrimperos today, so great were the physical dangers of extracting gold, that the risk posed by mercury poisoning must have seemed derisory. Oh yes. They used mercury in those days too. And evidence is coming to light that present generations may still be suffering the consequences. In the old gold mining regions of Min Sherice and Gojas scientists are finding an unusually high incidence of mental retardation, and other congenital conditions, and the finger of suspicion is pointed at methyl mercury that's accumulated in the soil and in the ground water. If it can happen in the old gold mining regions, it can happen in the Amazon too. It's another piece of evidence suggesting a long term buildup towards a serious mercury crisis. [car noise] For a mercury crisis is not an immediate or indeed a long term worry. In Amazonia he's what is called in the Garrimpo world, a donno The owner of the gold digging area and it's machinery. But here on the Rato river, is more than a Donno he's a king, or at least he acts like one. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] Not just king but an absolute monarch. Mr started in a small way, but now two hundred and fifty Garrimperos work under him. [machinery noise] In the local government he's the secretary responsible for mining, and for the environment.... As surveys his operations, is it with the eye of the secretary for mining? Or the secretary for the environment? One wonders.... He also uses mercury in large quantities, and as secretary for the environment, one might have expected him to seek less damaging alternatives. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Rubens:] We haven't been trying hard to persuade the Garrimperos to adopt different technologies, more modern technologies that would avoid the contamination of the mercury, but as I said I believe the only way of reaching this goal is if we can organize the Garrimperos to have er a kind of er institutionalized way of exploiting gold, not the sort of gold rush i that is being on and on On and off in Brazil for two centuries right now. [Julian Pettifer:] This cheap and simple piece of technology could transform the mercury vapour problem. [Roberto:] This is the part of the retort, we have water in here. [Julian Pettifer:] The mercury gold amalgam is burned in a closed retort rather than in the open air. How efficient is this, Roberto? [Roberto:] Ah well it'll recover about ninety five percent of the mercury. Ah th the problems that the mercury causes are not erm easily seen Immediately seen. So you have to show them that is very important, not because of the mercury recovery but because of their health. [Julian Pettifer:] Yeah. The retort is not only safer, it saves money. Recovering the mercury for reuse. Why is something so obviously superior not being used? [speaker004:] We have to work with the garrimperos we have to try and convince 'em. As er as you can imagine, it's a very difficult task, nobody wants to go up in the region, it has malaria, it's dangerous, it's it Transportation is difficult. But we have to manage to find out how these people think, how we can convince them Even to protect themselves, one of the things we'd like to show is look, using this mercury, you're killing yourself. But this takes a long time and a lot of convincing. [Julian Pettifer:] Could, local secretary for the environment, be convinced If the right equipment was readily available, would he encourage it's use throughout his kingdom. Because if he wanted it done, it would be done. [machinery noise] [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] The trouble is the culture of the Garrimpero is a macho culture, of gambling and drinking and whoring, and hazardous work, where mercury is the very least of his concerns. He's more likely to die in a bar brawl.... And why should the Garrimpero heed the advice of the authorities when the authorities ignore him. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Rubens:] It is at the bottom a social problem. It is the failure of Brazilian society to provide those people with jobs, with a decent living, which er has led the Garrimperos to this activity. And the problem is, although they are er very negative for the environment, they destroy rivers, they effect the navigation, they are quite popular with the population, with the peasants, with the indians, because they bring money, they bring activities, they bring weapons, they bring all sorts of things that break the isolation of those populations that live along the rivers or er in the middle of the forest. [plane overhead] [Julian Pettifer:] Nothing has broken the isolation more than the light aircraft. It's these little planes that make this gold rush possible. And it's the people who own them and fly them, and those who supply the Garrimpos with food and fuel and medicines who make the real money. They've grown fat on gold, not the Garrimperos... They're a strong political lobby and would never allow business to close down over the little matter of mercury. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] But they can't ignore them all the time. Elsewhere in Amazonia, a thousand miles from the Tappajoss federal police recently responded to the murder, by Garrimperos of seventeen Yanamami Indians. In a fierce crackdown they destroyed gold dredges operating within forest reserves. But the suspicion is that this was little more than a public relations exercise. Garrimperos put out of business here, are likely to reappear elsewhere in the vastness of Amazonia.... Indeed in the Tappajoss there has been a sudden increase in the number of big dredgers. Although the number of Garrimperos has declined, the scale of their operation has increased. And as the large machines move in the destruction grows. So does the consumption of mercury. And those that operate the dredgers are quite indifferent. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] He and his kind are unlikely to be deterred by exultation. More dredgers are under construction and this activity will continue and intensify. It's one of number of worrying developments.... [speaker002:] [speaking portuguese] [Julian Pettifer:] Garrimperos are now beginning to sink shafts to mine primary gold. These youngsters work seventy metres below ground in appalling conditions. One of their team was killed by explosives the week before our visit. Deep mining also produces environmental damage. Developments like this mean that even if alluvial gold gives out or becomes less profitable, the uncontrolled search for wealth will continue and accelerate. And although the technology is different, it still involves the use of mercury. Large amounts of mercury are mixed with the crushed gold bearing rock, and are agitated in a concrete mixture. Yet another source of pollution adding to the risk.... One remedy that's being proposed calls for drastic action now. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech] [Julian Pettifer:] A distinguished economist er suggested to me, the only way to deal with this Garrimpo problem is to close them down. Now is that a politically possible solution do you think? [Rubens:] No it's not realistic because you know that there are thousands of people involved with the in the Garrimpos and er there is no way you could er shut them down without offering them an alternative. In a country like ours where half of the territory er is still in the frontier situation, er there is an enormous difficulty in enforcing some laws. It's not the same situation as you are used to in Europe. [car noise] [Julian Pettifer:] While the politicians seem impotent and indecisive, riverside communities continue to live under the shadow of the mercury threat. Some would like to forget it but it won't go away. [speaker002:] [portuguese speech]... [Julian Pettifer:] In the final stages of the journey from river mud to glittering metal, gold is treated to remove the last stages of Garrimpo mercury, then it becomes pure, but not innocent. In Brazil gold is guilty of crimes against the environment and against humanity. And the criminal record goes back for centuries. Whether the new charge of conspiracy to poison the people will be proved, is still unclear, but the evidence cannot be ignored, and unless decisive steps are taken it could be too late. [theme music to end of recording]

[Tricia Lawton:] [theme music] At police stations across England and Wales more than two hundred thousand people will be given cautions this year. To get a caution they'll have to admit their part in the crime but they won't have to go court. [door closing] A caution doesn't mean a criminal record but it does mean the police can solve crime with the minimum of fuss. Research also suggests it discourages some people from re-offending. [speaker002:] He's gone into Boots, he's admitted to doing the offence erm picking up some perfume from the counter in Boots, put it in the basket then placed it into his bag and walked out. [speaker004:] What's his previous his [speaker002:] He's [speaker004:] previous record? [speaker002:] He's got He's got one previous erm which actually date back to nineteen seventy seven erm for handling stolen goods. [speaker003:] Come this way please. [speaker004:] The best thing for this chap would be to caution him for this offence. How'd How'd do you think he'd react to that? [speaker002:] Well he's been very remorse throughout the interview anyway he's you know he said sorry throughout and he regrets doing it now he's he couldn't understand why he did it. [Tricia Lawton:] Cautioning was originally intended for first time young offenders and those, like this man, guilty of a minor crime. [speaker004:] What intended to do with yourself is were going to caution you. Now what that means is that you've admitted the offence which you were arrested for which is er [Tricia Lawton:] But more adults are now being cautioned and for more serious crime. It was the government's own guidelines three years ago which encouraged cautioning. They said cautions were acceptable for all age groups for a wide range of unspecified offences. There was no reason to limit cautions to one, prosecution should be the last resort. [speaker004:] I want you to sign here and er the bit at the bottom does say that you admit the offence which you were er b er arrested for and then your release for custody will we'll give your your er property back and you will be released. [speaker005:] Right. [speaker004:] If you sign just there please. [Tricia Lawton:] The cautioning guidelines were intended to ensure consistency among police forces, but in fact they gave chief constables wide discretion. As a result in some parts of the country you're three times more likely to be cautioned than in others. [speaker004:] that's sealed in there, there you go sir. [Tricia Lawton:] In some police stations we've identified criminals actually stand more chance of being cautioned than prosecuted. [speaker003:] Follow this officer she'll show you out. Okay. [Tricia Lawton:] For this man the ordeal of several hours in a police cell is over there 'll be no court case, no difficult explanations for his employer. All he has to cope with is his own shame. [speaker005:] It's something for my wife which I can't afford cos I've been off sick so I thought it would be something nice for her. [Tricia Lawton:] Can I ask you what your reaction was when you knew you were going to be cautioned and not prosecuted? [speaker005:] Total relief. [Tricia Lawton:] What would have been the consequences for you had you been prosecuted? [speaker005:] Possibly the loss of my job. [Tricia Lawton:] It's a salutary lesson for you is it? [speaker005:] Oh certainly yeah, yeah. I'm grateful for being let off. [noise traffic] [Tricia Lawton:] Cautioning has advantages and not only for the offender. It saves the government more than a hundred million pounds by cutting the number of expensive court hearings, and it's a quick and easy way for the police to clear up crime. The most dramatic rise in cautioning in England and Wales has been for adult offenders. In Cheshire, according to figures obtained by Public Eye, adult cautions have nearly trebled in the last four years. In Hampshire the figures have nearly doubled. In Merseyside too the number of adult cautions has almost doubled. Overall, cautioning for all offenders, which was falling before the nineteen ninety guidelines were introduced, is now steadily increasing. Last year there were two hundred and sixteen thousand cautions given for indictable offences, those serious enough to be tried in a crown court. But under the present Home Secretary, Michael Howard, the climate is changing. [Michael Howard:] I think repeated cautioning and cautioning for serious offences are completely unacceptable and I know you do to. [applause] [Tricia Lawton:] If the Home Secretary is worried about cautioning he need look no further than Folkestone, his own constituency, and the rest of Kent. The latest Home Office figures show that Kent has the highest cautioning rate in the country. Magistrates, victims of crime, the police and even offenders agree cautioning has got out of hand. A more serious concern is the extent to which it is undermining faith in the criminal justice system. [dramatic music] Across Kent crime rose by fifteen percent in nineteen ninety two that's more than twice the national average. Unpublished figures obtained by Public Eye show that fifty seven percent of offenders were cautioned rather than prosecuted. You stand nearly three times as much chance of getting a police caution in Kent as you do in South Wales. [speaker007:] I'm concerned that er people are not being brought to justice. And er that er very often the criminal fraternity are looking at it as a ways and means of getting out of coming to court. [Tricia Lawton:] These young men are known to police in the county. Some have criminal convictions, all say they have been cautioned or warned by the police several times. One of them three months ago for a violent attack. Causing grievous bodily harm to someone now you might say that's a very serious offence which you should expect to be prosecuted. [speaker008:] it is but [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] then again all I turned round and said the bloke that I hit, he said he didn't want to press charges, but then I thought the police can bring out their own prosecution against me but they turned round and said no he doesn't want to press charges so we'll just caution you again. [Tricia Lawton:] You must have been very surprised that you weren't pro [speaker008:] I was then, cos like I done his jaw in, I done his nose in and I thought this is it. I thought I'm going down this time. And they just said were caution you and I walked out of there and I started laughing.... [Tricia Lawton:] What sort of things do they say to you? [speaker008:] Er they take you into the office, tell you to sit down, and they look at you as if you're a little schoolboy. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker008:] And they say right Mr we caution you for er what ever you done next time you do it we'll take you for court for it. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] You just walk out the police station I run up the road I was laughing my head off. [Tricia Lawton:] Do you think it's an encouragement also to erm go out and commit more crimes if you're cautioned? [speaker009:] Yeah you do, you tend to go out and commit more crime because of You've been let out you've been let off really... [speaker008:] That's the buzz of it, innit really? [speaker009:] And you go out and do the same thing again and you're getting le let off for the same thing all the time and you think you're going to get away with it all the time. [speaker008:] Yeah. I wouldn't say it encourages you but it sort of you know you're going to get away with it. You get one caution an and er I thought the limit was two you get t two cautions and you get took to the court. So I knew that I could go out again and get another caution, that's why I did it, really. Then if I get caught I just get a caution and that's it. [Tricia Lawton:] What does cautioning mean to you? [speaker010:] Nothing. You go down there they slap you on the wrist you walk away from it and go and do it again. [Tricia Lawton:] What about if you'd received a harsher sentence? [speaker010:] You'd think twice about doing it wouldn't you? If they like sentence me straight away for doing something like I'd think to myself is it worth it? [Tricia Lawton:] Kent went to the top of the cautioning league under Paul, now commissioner of the Metropolitan police. When the new Chief Constable took over in March he ordered an immediate review. The result is likely to be far fewer cautions. [speaker003:] I myself take the view that the criminal justice process generally is the appropriate way to deal with criminal offending and I'm not too happy with the idea that people who commit criminal offences should be dealt with outside the courts. [Tricia Lawton:] Isn't it the case though that people in Kent, offenders in Kent, have become used to the idea that cautioning will be the norm? That they won't be prosecuted, at least for some minor offences? [speaker003:] I think this is not just a problem in Kent, I think that there has been a erm an undue er move in this direction nationally, er for what ever reasons public policy was very much about keeping people out of the courts, er I suspect that this is er er a policy which is of doubtful philosophical underpinning. [captain pugwash music. video arcade] [Tricia Lawton:] In Margate crime rose by twenty percent last year we found that for the victims of crime here the use of cautioning has undermined confidence in the justice system. They can get compensation only if the case goes to court. [electronic beeping] This centre for the elderly has been broken into four times in two years. All on his own little willy number one. [speaker003:] Ooh. [Tricia Lawton:] You poor old Many of the volunteers are pensioners themselves. The last time it suffered a break in, the intruder badly damaged a door. He was caught in the act but got off with a caution. You lot of woofers. [speaker002:] We had been told at the time he had been in trouble before. We got a letter from the Kent constabulary to say that erm he'd been let off. And I felt absolutely horrified, devastated to think that he could have done that sort of damage and just walked away he didn't even have to pay for the damage he'd done. I was I was so angry and and I see him a out and about and when I first saw him about I could have I could have run him down. [Tricia Lawton:] Figures we've obtained for the first three months of this year show astonishing variations in cautioning rates across Kent. In Margate for example there were far more prosecutions then cautions, the same is true in other places such as Medway and Tunbridge Wells. But in other areas, like Canterbury, offenders are more likely to be cautioned than prosecuted. The same applies to Ashford, where according to our figures the same has happened for the last three years. So how can it be that there are such enormous variations between different parts of Kent? [noise traffic] Privately police officers have told us, decisions on cautioning can depend on how much or how little faith they have in the courts to pass adequate sentences, and on how much paper work is required for a prosecution. [speaker003:] I would be deeply suspicious if the level of consistency were such that the figure were absolutely the same in every area because that would suggest to me that no discretion was going into the process. If if if you were talking about er high levels of variance then clearly erm they need to be addressed. It is exactly because of that level of variance and because we considered er that multiple cautioning on some occasions, I think on the figures I have examined about six percent of occasions, er were unjustifiable that we have reviewed our policy. [noise traffic] Are you aware of other people in the area [Tricia Lawton:] John would welcome anything that might put more criminals back in court. [speaker004:] Well not as many, er there is the odd break in here and there but no one has had the sort of amount that I have erm [Tricia Lawton:] He's a former chairman of the magistrates association and has spent thirty one years on the bench. He's witnessed a substantial fall in the number of offenders appearing in his Ashford court. [speaker004:] They know we're out and they're targeting their premises. [speaker003:] Do you reckon it's the same man? [Tricia Lawton:] This experience is reflected across the county where the number of criminal cases has fallen by ten percent in the last three years. He attributes part of that to the rise in cautioning.... John joined other senior magistrates who told us they're concerned about cautioning. Magistrates who are unused in public at least are criticizing the police, they say their policy has gone too far. [speaker005:] They are making decisions behind closed doors, they are making decisions erm arbitrary decisions, without the benefit of accountability to the public and that to me is the most serious er long term aspect of the increase in cautioning. [Tricia Lawton:] You're concerned at at there being private justice not public justice? [speaker005:] Indeed, well I d I I don't call it justice. It's private decision making. [Michael Howard:] I honestly believe that this is a a a financial exercise that the government have imposed on the criminal justice system. Now I'm not opposed to cautioning, of course not, the odd one or two occasion I think it's highly effective. But it is being used I believe as a scapegoat to get the government off the hook for financial reasons. [Tricia Lawton:] What evidence do you have from your own court about multiple cautions? [speaker007:] Only last week, the last time I sat in court er there was an instance of one individual who had had twelve cautions in a period of eight months er he was still a youth so his name obviously can not be divulged, erm and it's not only the cautions, I wonder how many warnings he'd received as well. We as magistrates do try and be consistent in our sentencing er throughout the country, I think it's beholden on the police to be consistent in their approach to offenders, as well, and it seems quite wrong that someone in Folkestone gets away with doing something with a guy in Wigan er goes before the court. There is a a colossal amount of inconsistency er of a kind that if we were to practice such inconsistency in our courts there would be there would be absolute outcry and it's it's something of a scandal I think that er that the police and the executive generally are apparently able to get away with inconsistencies which we are not. [swimming bath noises of screaming children] [Tricia Lawton:] The story of Dave is a remarkable tale of coincidence and injustice. He was coaching his local swimming team when police told him his car was being broken into. The damage amounted to two hundred and fifty pounds. [speaker008:] those legs, go go go. [Tricia Lawton:] It was the sixth time in a year he'd been a victim of crime, but this time the culprits, two youths, had been arrested. [speaker008:] After a little while they got back to me and says right one's finally broken down, the seventeen year old, it took them an hour and an half, we've broke him down he's admitted he's done it. I said right, what's the situation now? They said we've got a good chance now of prosecuting 'em. Would you be willing to prosecute? I said bloody sure I'd be willing to prosecute. I'd said after all I've had done to me I said you've caught 'em, I'll prosecute. [Tricia Lawton:] Twice a week for four months Dave would contact the police waiting for news of the court case. In the summer he was stopped by the police for overloading his builder's van. When he returned from a holiday in August he had some unwelcome news. [speaker008:] Right, I have two letters on the side I open the first one. The first one relates to the child who broke into my car, I won't call him a child he's a bloody toerag as far as I'm concerned, who broke into my car has been given a caution, a bloody caution. Caught him with a screwdriver in his hand he's admitted he's done it and he's got let off. Ta da, don't be a naughty boy again. I open the second letter, would you please appear in court cos you were overloaded, you are being prosecuted. Well I thought if that ain't British justice I don't know what is. To get two letters in one day I is I thought it was a classic. Thank you very much, you've copped it both ends Mr [Tricia Lawton:] The final irony, it was the same Chief Inspector who had signed both the letters he received. One of the victims we have spoken to in Kent received two letters on the same day. One informed him that the seventeen year old offender who had caused two hundred and fifty pounds worth of damage to his car had been formerly cautioned. The other letter informed the victim that he was going to be prosecuted for overloading his builder's van, he was in fact prosecuted and fined. His comment to us was British justice, that's not British justice. What do you think of that sort of situation? [speaker009:] Erm, I would share his view. [Tricia Lawton:] You think it was wrong that he should have been prosecuted and the person who damaged his car should not? [speaker009:] Well I don't know th th the er the detail of the circumstances nor the matters that went into the judgement, but in the way you have explained it to me and if all those facts are as are as simple and plausible as you as you say, then yes I would agree with him. [Tricia Lawton:] And you wouldn't want that sort of thing to happen in future? [speaker009:] I would not. [Tricia Lawton:] Elsewhere in the country similar views are being expressed among victims of crime where the offender was cautioned. More than two thirds of people surveyed in Gloucestershire said they were dissatisfied that the offender involved had been cautioned. Most of those said they wanted them taken to court. Three quarters said they hadn't been consulted before a caution was given, and sixty two percent of our sample thought offenders should only be entitled to one caution no matter whether the crime was committed by an adult or juvenile. [noise traffic] The picture is different in Northamptonshire where a pioneering approach to cautioning appears to have the backing of victims and those involved in the criminal justice process. [door knock] But there are fears that the government's vigorous attempts to clamp down on cautioning could mean the end to a well supported and apparently successful scheme. Here there are few of the excesses of cautioning seen in some other areas, even though prosecution is considered very much the last resort. [speaker010:] There are certainly criteria being fulfilled which allows me to deal by means of a formal caution. [Tricia Lawton:] Just over a third of those guilty of indictable offences are cautioned, that's around the national average and well below that in Kent. [speaker010:] Can you sign there to indicate that you accept the formal caution then [Tricia Lawton:] Custody officers are specially trained to handle cautions, they follow a detailed grading system which helps determine whether a caution is suitable. Points are awarded or deducted according to the impact of the crime on the victim, for example, and whether the offender is genuinely remorseful. [speaker003:] The person's kept himself out of trouble so is it really right for us to get him back before the courts again? It well may be that erm you know with the help that er he can be referred to, they help him keep out of trouble again, for a lot longer. Okay, thanks very much so they're the new cases. Has anybody got anything [Tricia Lawton:] The key to the approach though lies not just with the police but with the Northants diversion unit. Social workers, a history teacher and probation officers get together with the police to consider how best to deal with offenders. [speaker003:] He says he thought the passenger was then going to hit him so then he hit him first and er I think [Tricia Lawton:] The unit tries to keep the offenders out of court, an aim that sits uneasily with the government's new philosophy that prison and punishment work. But the unit also negotiates with offenders to try to encourage them to compensate their victims. [noise traffic] One of the units success stories is Richard. By accepting a caution he was spared a criminal record. birthday and I'd been out, had a few drinks and that. A few too many. And I was walking past and for some silly reason I felt like putting my fist through a couple of windows. Instead of going to court he paid six hundred and fifty pounds for the damage and apologized to the shop's owner. [speaker002:] It was quite a shock. [Tricia Lawton:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And then we found out that they'd actually caught you. [Tricia Lawton:] Yeah. And you were jumping around for joy and saying [speaker002:] Well not really, No no. [Tricia Lawton:] Hang him hang him hang him. [speaker002:] Well also I could think of [Tricia Lawton:] Both victim and offender are satisfied with the way things turned out. However one problem with this reparation scheme, as it's known, is that the offender can't be forced to pay up. [speaker004:] All of our reparation work is based on the fact that we want people to volunteer to do this work. We want them to volunteer to to pay compensation to the offen Er to the victim, because that way we know that they genuinely have concern over what they've done and they've faced up their responsibilities. They don't have to pay the the compensation, or make restitution in any way. It is entirely voluntary. [Tricia Lawton:] In some cases though there's no victim to pay compensation to, and there are always those offenders who clearly know how to exploit the system. It's four o'clock on a Sunday afternoon. A twenty year old man has been called in for a chat with an inspector. [Michael Howard:] Do you understand why you're here? [speaker007:] Yeah. [Michael Howard:] Okay, you tell me why you're here. [speaker007:] For caution erm for carrying an offensive weapon. [Michael Howard:] What I'd say to you is, don't mess up and throw away the opportunity you've been given, because if you do you'll only have yourself to blame. [Tricia Lawton:] Whatever goes on inside, outside this man says the caution isn't a deterrent. [speaker007:] It's not. It's just summat not to go to court innit? It's not got to court for sort of like, four or five weeks get adjourned or come up to the police station and then like get your hand slapped. Just listen to a copper sit there and talk rubbish for a few minutes. [Michael Howard:] reckon if you're seen carrying a knife again, then there's only one clear alternative for you and you've got to know what that is. Do you know what the alternative would be? [speaker007:] Custodial sentence. [Tricia Lawton:] You're now saying that potentially you would do it again? [speaker007:] Yeah, but if you tell them you won't, you just get a caution innit? No fine, nothing, you just get let off with it. And you're out again on the streets. [LAUGHTER] [Tricia Lawton:] So it's a bit of joke really isn't it? [speaker007:] Yeah it is. System You know the system just suck. Sorry I sound like a right right one but it does. The system's pathetic. [Tricia Lawton:] While such attitudes disappoint the police, officers don't find them wholly surprising. [speaker004:] There are obviously individuals like that. Similarly there are individuals that go through the court system and are punished, that are perhaps sent to prison, and come out of prison saying it's not going to make any difference, I now know how to break into every type of car, every type of building. And they're a much more efficient criminal if you like. [Tricia Lawton:] Isn't it demoralizing for police officers to see offenders not being prosecuted? [speaker004:] It's very difficult for police officers who are vi visiting victims of crime every day, to see an offender apparently getting away with it. But we must look at the long term view. Our primary objective is to prevent, or reduce, re-offending. Now we know that our diversion system allows us to do that. [speaker005:] Nationally the A Ts have see a dramatic reduction [Tricia Lawton:] At one of their regular training days Northamptonshire magistrates are hearing about the virtues of the diversion scheme. [speaker005:] custody. This is the the bear results In nineteen eighty three [Tricia Lawton:] These are the converted. Here there is, unusually, judicial support for cautioning. One reason is the ninety two percent approval rating it gets from victims of crime, according to a local police survey. There are plans to expand the scheme in the county to take in more adults. Magistrates say they're worried the government's attitude to cautioning may mean an end to this local initiative. [speaker008:] Well I think it would be disastrous. And I think governments would do well to talk to the people at the sharp end, like magistrates, who use this system, work the system, liaise with all the various components in the system and do know what they're talking about. They're appointed because they're intelligent beings and I think they should be treated as such and consulted. [Tricia Lawton:] The new guidelines will tell the police to give no more than two cautions, except in rare circumstances, and to caution only for minor offences. This is merely the latest example of the home office overturning policies earlier pursued with such vigour. There've been five home secretaries in four years and civil servants are unclear which direction ministers will take next. One of them told me the changes they've put now are so dramatic, there might as well have been a change of government. But Michael Howard is unbowed. [Michael Howard:] In the last thirty years the balance in our criminal justice system has been tilted too far in favour of the criminal and against the protection of the public. The time has come to put that right. [applause] [Tricia Lawton:] One of the officials in charge of shaping the more liberal policies favoured by the home office in the eighties was David. Now an academic, he's alarmed at what he sees as a policy reversal on cautioning. He says it'll fail. [speaker009:] For large numbers come into the criminal justice system unnecessarily, erm that is likely to set back the progress which was made during the nineteen eighties and er increase and reinforce criminality. [Tricia Lawton:] How much of a danger do you think there is that we'll get yet another sea change at the home office and policies on cautioning and criminal justice generally, will be reversed again? [speaker009:] I'm concerned about a policy which is based on er conviction and punishment. I mean the policy that er I helped er Douglas Hurd to develop in the nineteen eighties was based on prevention, consultation and cooperation, and moderate use of imprisonment. A lot of that has been set aside in substance and certainly in the attitudes and language which come from the government. [speaker010:] The court has considered the application for bail that has been made by your solicitor, [Tricia Lawton:] Toughening up on crime will cost millions. the new cautioning rules will put tens of thousands more in court. those with first hand experience of crime will be watching closely. [speaker003:] You've got to bring back some deterrent to this bloody country, otherwise the next thing you'll be getting is vigilante groups, and if you get vigilante groups then this country is in a hell of a bloody state and you will have bleeding trouble. This offence for which you have been found guilty [Tricia Lawton:] The name of the game is how can we reduce the amount of offending in this country. If cautioning could do that we'd all be right behind it. the fact is that it's not. It's not a punishment, but even the punishments are not deterring criminals either. [speaker003:] Accordingly we propose to adjourn the matter today [Tricia Lawton:] The home secretary may care to ponder this thought. Cautioning may have fallen into disrepute but to abandon it will mean a return to the punitive policies that this government had only recently said had failed. [speaker003:] Accordingly you'll be remanded in custody for a period of seven days. [theme music to end of recording]

[speaker001:] Tonight, as the lottery bill becomes law in Britain, in America there's growing concern about how lottery companies win contracts worth millions of dollars. But first flying in the face of the worst ever recession in air travel, Virgin Atlantic is doubling its fleet and adding new routes, a high risk strategy. But can Richard Branson land safely? [Richard Branson:] I would put pretty well everything into making sure that er that Virgin Atlantic is here in twenty years' time. [Floya:] Okay I'm off now. [Tessa Curtis:] Floya flies with Virgin Atlantic, perhaps Europe's best known independent airline.... Tonight she's on the flight to New York, although Virgin Atlantic flies to seven international cities and is now the biggest part of the Virgin group. [speaker006:] Across the U K this is Virgin twelve fifteen [Tessa Curtis:] Virgin radio is one of the latest additions. [speaker006:] Phil Collins. [music] [Tessa Curtis:] The megastores, computer games, publishing, and even airships, all trade under the Virgin name. It's become one of the most famous brands in the world. But increasingly it's the airline that fascinates the man who built all this. He's one of Britain's most popular businessmen, Richard Branson. [Richard Branson:] It's completely addictive I think an anybody that gets involved in the airline business will say the same. I think for me I love erm er er er I love a challenge, and er I suspect the fact that before I went into it people said it was erm something which was erm absolutely impossible er er and that the their was no way that one could make a go of it erm made it made it made it perhaps all the more [LAUGHTER] challenging to try to prove them wrong []. [Tessa Curtis:] For the crew this is just another New York flight, but it's been a rough ride for Virgin Atlantic. Having won a libel case against British Airways over the much publicized dirty tricks, it's set to announce losses exceeding fourteen million pounds for nineteen ninety two, and all airlines have been tightening their belts in the recession. [speaker007:] Anybody whose ambitious at this point in time is taking a risk, in the last three years the world's airlines have lost between them about ten billion U S dollars. Now at first people thought that was because of the gulf crisis an and the downturn in traffic, but actually it's the economic recession which has cut off demand er and which is lasting much longer than people expected.... [speaker008:] Drinks courtesy. [Tessa Curtis:] Thank you... First class service at less than first class fares has become something of a slogan for Virgin Atlantic, but that's put it on a collision course with big international airlines, especially British Airways. Virgin wants to make itself less vulnerable, and it thinks it can do so by offering even better service to more passengers flying to more places. Trouble is, competition for passengers has never been so fierce and Virgin is still a tiny airline that's losing money. But Richard Branson is so determined to win he's now betting with his own fortune to put more planes like this one in the sky, it could be his biggest gamble yet. The picture looks very different from Virgin's early days in the record business. In nineteen seventy Richard Branson was making waves as a young businessman, even then he had aspirations to take on the giants. [Richard Branson:] Virgin Records is t starting up new groups who ac you know have been scorned by some of the big companies. [Tessa Curtis:] [music] He took a risk with the sex pistols, and landed up in court. [music] Then came the city, Branson floated Virgin but soon went private again. With every new stunt his boyish enthusiasm hyped the company's name.... And of course his own, then, nearly ten years ago Virgin bought its first plane. [music] As money from Boy George and Culture Club poured in the airline really took off. And then last year Branson sold the music business to Thorn E M I for five hundred and sixty million pounds so he could focus on the airline, which was losing money. [Richard Branson:] Well obviously one would like [LAUGHTER] to make money rather than lose money [] erm I mean there's the there are quite a few factors why erm Virgin er lost money last year er first of all you know we had er the very well publicized er dirty tricks campaign being waged against us. Er we believe that cost us many many millions of pounds, secondly, there was the worst recession that the airline industry has had, thirdly, has been er a you know we're a growing company, we're investing. [Tessa Curtis:] We built this model and asked professor John, an airline specialist, to explain Virgin's commercial problem. [John Kay:] Running an airline is an expensive business at the best of times, during a recession it can be a way of using up money really quite quickly, now Virgin's particular problem was that they began this recession with relatively little in the way of capital and reserves, only about thirty six million in nineteen ninety one. [Tessa Curtis:] So what would have happened last year when they lost over fourteen million pounds? [John Kay:] Well that has to come out of their capital and as you can see it takes out quite a large chunk. [Tessa Curtis:] How bad is that? [John Kay:] Well that can be very serious. If you lose the same amount of money for a second year you're down to a position where one small slip would take the business into insolvency. [Tessa Curtis:] So what can Virgin do to turn this round and start trading profitably? [John Kay:] Well what most airlines have done has been to try and trim back their scale of operations, but what Virgin are doing is using Richard Branson's personal money to try and expand out of trouble. [Tessa Curtis:] We can reveal he plans to invest about a hundred and fifteen million of his own money without going to the bank, much of it's for planes, staff and facilities, but we discovered he's just used forty five million to buy out Saboo Saison the airline's Japanese shareholder. [Richard Branson:] We have erm er just bought Saboo Saison out so er the twenty percent share holding they had in the airline we've now bought back in-house. [Tessa Curtis:] So does this mean you actually want to be in control of it yourself er or not? [Richard Branson:] I think for the time being I I'd I'd I'd I'd I'd I think that it makes sense to be fully in control of it, I think that I you know have great faith in Virgin Atlantic, erm I think that it erm it's got a great future, erm but erm er I don't think it would be that easy to to erm you know to to I don't think we'd have partners falling over themselves to get into the airline business in in in this recession. [Tessa Curtis:] This may look like drinks for the passengers, but it's actually part of Virgin Atlantic's expansion plan. [speaker010:] Great, lovely Lisa, if you'd just like to stop it there, that was lovely. Can you remember when we did the classroom training. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker010:] Which passenger would you normally serve first? [speaker003:] The window seat. [speaker010:] And today what should you have done? [speaker003:] Well that's right... [Tessa Curtis:] These trainee hostesses our among nearly five hundred new recruits being taken on for flights to up to eight additional cities starting in the new year. [speaker001:] You're all looking very smart. [speaker003:] [cheering]. [Tessa Curtis:] Celebrations as the new recruits graduate, some of them will be flying the new non-stop service between London and Hong Kong, which had been a duopoly for British Airways and Cathay Pacific. [Richard Branson:] ... with Steeros we're both going to Miami and back... [Floya:] Oh, which one? [LAUGHTER] [Richard Branson:] I quite like it. [Tessa Curtis:] Experience suggests that fares to Hong Kong will fall once Virgin arrives, the danger is that in flying to new places Virgin may reduce the money in it for everybody. [John Kay:] Virgin will not pull it off if they add too much capacity in too many routes in a very short period of time, because filling capacity is becoming increasingly difficult. To fill the seats you have to drop the fares, there's a price war going on, especially in the markets that Virgin's involved in, price wars mean very low fares, fares which in many cases will not cover the cost of flying the aeroplane. [Tessa Curtis:] What would you say to the criticism that by opening up new routes you simply add to the problem of over capacity, and so there's less money for everyone? [Richard Branson:] I don't think the consumer would ev say that and I think sometimes one forgets er people forget the consumer I mean the erm er but obviously by us going onto the Hong Kong route we are going to reduce British Airways and Cathay Pacific's profits on that route considerably, we we think that because our costs are considerably less than British Airways, and I suspect considerably less than Cathay Pacific, that the player that er could be around in thirty or forty years' time is Virgin Atlantic. [Tessa Curtis:] To open up new routes Virgin needs more planes, and it's come here to Airbus, in the South of France for some of them. Airbus is building four A Three Forties, like this, to fly on Virgin's long distance routes, in fact this one will soon be off to Hong Kong. Virgin may only be a small airline, but so far this year it's Airbus's biggest customer, that's because many bigger airlines struggling in a tough market either can't afford new planes or are cancelling their orders. Virgin says that by expanding aggressively and bucking the trend it's been able to get some really hard bargains. [Richard Branson:] Ah, wonderful. [Tessa Curtis:] Richard Branson has come [Richard Branson:] Magnificent [Tessa Curtis:] to see his new planes for the first [Richard Branson:] Thank you very much [Tessa Curtis:] time very first delivery. [Richard Branson:] Yeah, were going to be using the first plane on Hong Kong on February the first... [Tessa Curtis:] It'll cost Virgin an estimated five million pounds a year to lease each new plane, with six on order [Richard Branson:] then the others [Tessa Curtis:] including two from Boeing, that's over thirty million. [speaker006:] [footsteps] Urgh. [Tessa Curtis:] And then there are other things to pay for like new in-flight gambling systems. [speaker006:] Seventeen, this isn't I'm not going to [speaker007:] No good I'm not playing with this thing any more. [Tessa Curtis:] Virgin argues its new planes [speaker006:] What else do you have? [Tessa Curtis:] are much cheaper to fly but simply having more of them will push up costs so it'll need about twice as many passengers. [John Kay:] Well we know that they plan to have fourteen planes in operation by nineteen ninety six and I reckon that will raise their cost of operations to something over six hundred million pounds. [Tessa Curtis:] And how many passengers do they need to make that kind of money? [John Kay:] Well to make that sort of revenue they will actually need to fly rather more than two million passengers a year, and in the present state of the world aviation market I reckon that's quite a tall order, in fact if they fell short of it by five percent in a particular year that would be capable of using up the kind of capital and reserves which we've been talking about. [speaker008:] Well this looks fine Alan, how about the summary? [John Kay:] Well [Tessa Curtis:] The new survey for travel group O A G on what business passengers want. Whilst they only fill a tenth of seats they bring in a lot more income, in Virgin's case almost half. Ian, formerly Virgin Atlantic's marketing manager, says business passengers do value good service, but increasingly cost matters too. [speaker010:] We discovered that the significance of value for money is creeping up the scale, particularly for the corporate buyer, the person in a company that's in charge of buying travel services. They are becoming increasingly more important as they want to er and try to impose policy on travellers, and therefore price is becoming much more of an issue with them. [Tessa Curtis:] This man is a corporate travel buyer, the sort of customer that Virgin Atlantic most needs. His name Charles, his job director of the city bank Merrel-Lynch, his task to decide which airline staff here can fly, his annual budget for this is six million pounds. [speaker003:] [car starting] Okay pilot, ready for take off. [music] [Tessa Curtis:] With special services like this bike to airport escort Virgin hopes to tempt big wheels to send business travellers onto its flights. Such gimmicks have helped to make Virgin's upper class service tempting to business passengers, but Virgin knows the real business is done by men like this, and they're not just looking at service but also cost. [speaker001:] Hello. [speaker003:] Hello. [speaker001:] Good afternoon. [speaker003:] Good afternoon. A lot of companies actually er reviewed there there policies, and have down graded. We, for instance use mid- class on Virgin as well as upper class for some er levels of staff and departments. Prices are coming down because discounts are being raised, and it's got very keen in the market place. [Tessa Curtis:] So to stay in the frame is Virgin going to have to get in there and [speaker003:] Yes they are indeed, there going to have to compete on price as well as on service and value added. [Tessa Curtis:] Clearly corporate buying habits matter to Richard Branson. [Richard Branson:] Morning all. [Tessa Curtis:] Everybody at his house for lunch is a corporate travel buyer, he has lots of these lunches. Branson wants feedback from people like these. [Richard Branson:] The erm crucial questions I'd like to ask is that of cost. [Tessa Curtis:] He assures them Virgin Atlantic can and does compete on cost as well as service, but he claims British Airways isn't playing fair and has complained to the European commission that B A is offering anti-competitive deals Virgin claims it's losing business as a result. [Richard Branson:] If they can go around, for instance, and pick off all our key accounts and use their dominant route structure to effectively take all our principle clients away er we won't have any anybody flying on our planes, so er so we've got to strike quickly, erm you know relatively soon after they started this new attack to make sure that it erm it er it doesn't get doesn't get out of control. [Tessa Curtis:] Sir Colin, British Airways chairman, rejects accusations of foul play. [Floya:] Thank you very much. What we are doing is what is being done er in the market generally there is nothing unique about British Airways position in this regard, in the event the European commission er should find against er our interest in this respect er they are in effect going to find against the interest er of the er European airlines as a whole, and that would be very detrimental to the interest of European business and travellers. [Tessa Curtis:] Most corporate buyers we spoke to agreed that B A's doing deals much like those from other airlines, indeed Merrel-Lynch said they'd just dropped B A having got a better deal elsewhere. [speaker003:] I think British Airways offer a fair deal erm but it's not necessarily the largest deal, they invest a lot in in their service and what they do, and I think erm Virgin do offer generous deals. [Tessa Curtis:] Right so is there anything unfair in your view about the kind of deal British Airways is offering? [speaker003:] Erm in my experience erm I don't think so. [Tessa Curtis:] This flight simulator, Virgin's lofty lady, is part of another row with B A which is just as important in the battle for business passengers. Inside, Virgin's pilots are landing on runway twenty seven at Heathrow, in the simulator they can take off and land as often as they like at this the world's busiest airport, but in real life Virgin says it has to fight for slots to take off and land at the times to suit business travellers, it blames B A. B A says it doesn't allocate slots or monopolize Heathrow Airport. [Richard Branson:] B A er had a very clear dominance at Heathrow, erm it was a dominance that erm has effectively been erm given to them on a plate by the government, or successive governments over the last fifty years, erm and which in effect saw off you know, Laker, B Cal, Dan Air, Air Europe, erm and er and er and er it's it's them having that dominance and then being able to erm er effectively misuse that dominance by er by using the dom the dominance on say the routes which say Virgin Atlantic don't fly to er actually damage Virgin on on on the routes that erm that we do fly. [Tessa Curtis:] Virgin's determined to fight, on Thursday it began legal action here in the United States. Virgin's filed this complaint against British Airways here in the federal court of New York. The central allegation in what's certain to be a bitterly contested case, is that B A has a monopoly based on its dominance of Heathrow, which it's abusing in a bid to force Virgin out of the market for transatlantic travel. In establishing this Virgin finally hopes to win compensation for the dirty tricks affair and damages awarded here could easily run to one billion dollars. In bringing its fight to the streets of New York, Virgin also hope to win an injunction restraining B A. B A say there's no basis for the claim. It all hinges on B A's share of slots at Heathrow which is about forty percent. The complaint is really a litany of er a whole host of the old grievances there that we have heard several times er before and we will be dealing with the matter in the proper place through our U S council in the U S courts, in terms of er suggestions that it is that it surrounds the question er of monopoly we certainly er do not accept that thirty eight percent of slots at Heathrow in any way constitutes a monopoly it certainly does not. According to anti-trust lawyers, independent of both sides, most successful anti-trust cases involve market shares of over sixty five percent, Irving Sher who recently acted in another aviation anti-trust case says they often last three to five years and cost millions dollars. And this case looks tough. [speaker006:] It would seem from what you've told me that the market share is on the low side of a monopolization case and that kind of case to begin with is always a complicated and long drawn out case. [Tessa Curtis:] How sure can Virgin Atlantic be of winning this case do you think? [speaker006:] I don't think they can be extremely confident if there basing it on a forty percent market share. [Tessa Curtis:] So with a fight on two fronts, in the market place and the courts, what are Virgin's chances of success? [speaker006:] It's certainly a tall order to win both courts and market battles and we have to recognize that the background is one in which number two scheduled airlines in the U K have not been successful, look at British Caledonian, look at Air Europe, look at Dan Air. [Tessa Curtis:] So how do you rate their chances? [speaker006:] Well it might be that this turns out to be an extremely successful gamble, and Branson has expanded Virgin into a world recovery, or it may be that this airline runs into more serious financial difficulties in the middle of the decade, and it either contracts or it sells out to either an American or a continental European carrier. [Tessa Curtis:] Branson's already ruled out bank loans, so if there is serious need in future will other Virgin companies fund the airline? [Richard Branson:] No, fortunately the other companies are stand alone companies erm making erm you know making their own way, and they don't have to fear erm Richard coming and stripping them of their hard earned earnings to put into the airline erm because erm you know because fortunately we've got resources elsewhere to look after the airline and see its development through. [Tessa Curtis:] It's here in the Channel Islands that most of Richard Branson's money is held. It may seem curious given Virgin's talent for publicity that the full details of its financial affairs and ownership are actually intensely private. St Peterport here in Guernsey is one of the offshore tax havens through which Richard Branson and his family control most of Virgin's shares. Many of them are held through trusts with names like Jupiter, Venus, and Mars, registered here at Morgan-Grenfell. It's hard to tell how much money's in these trusts because they're not open for public scrutiny, but they may indeed be the main source of funding to expand the airline. Our research suggests that after the sale of the music business to Thorn, the trusts would have got about four hundred and fifty million pounds, even after paying off debts and setting aside money for the initial expansion of Virgin Atlantic, that would still leave about two hundred and fifty million. That sounds a lot of money, but it's not difficult to spend it on an airline. Neither Branson nor Virgin Atlantic as a private company, have to make such matters public. Using offshore trusts like this is entirely legal, it also frees up extra money, and that may be needed in future. [Richard Branson:] I would have had to pay tax unless I'd set up trusts, er by setting up trusts I could then effectively delay paying the tax er use that money to invest in new companies. [Tessa Curtis:] You've told me that you're putting in about a hundred million pounds for this initial expansion, is that the limit? [Richard Branson:] I suspect that erm er that erm er a sane person should say, Yes definitely that's the limit. erm but er I don't live my life erm er just with a profit motive in everything I do. As I said at the beginning I love a challenge and I would put pretty well everything into making sure that Virgin Atlantic is here in twenty years' time. [Tessa Curtis:] But the future of this airline could be decided much sooner than that, and with it the levels of service and fares we can all expect on long haul flights. In the end it may all depend on the depth of Richard Branson's pocket, in moments of nostalgia even he may wonder if he sold the wrong business.... [speaker001:] With annual sales worth four billion pounds, the British lottery is expected to be the biggest in the world. As lobbying becomes fierce for lottery licenses here, across the Atlantic how companies win contracts is under investigation. [music] [Tessa Curtis:] Saturday night is lottery night here in the streets of Dublin, where Ireland's game of chance is engrained on the culture. [speaker007:] Grab a hold of that please, and give it a good hard tug. [cheering]. [Tessa Curtis:] Everyone's hoping for that dream ticket, and tonight there's a big win. [speaker007:] Five, four, three, two, one, thirteen thousand pounds. [cheering]. [Tessa Curtis:] Now it's Britain's turn. With the granting of royal assent on Friday, the lottery is finally on its way. [speaker008:] Millions of people undoubtedly will gain great pleasure from their weekly flutter. [Tessa Curtis:] Targeted revenues could top four billion pounds a year and provide a war chest for good causes such as sport and arts, the treasury's cut will be twelve percent of proceeds, leaving a honey pot of six hundred million pounds of turnover a year for the operator. Four consortia have already declared their intention to bid, the Great British Lottery Company comprising of Granada, Vodaphone, Hambrose Bank, Carlton Communications, and Associated Newspapers. N M Rothschild and Tattersalls of Australia, the Rank Organization, and Camelot comprising of G Tec, De La Rue, Reikel, Cadbury Schweppes, and I C L. Installing computers and ticketing machines will be a key part of the job for any lottery operator. World wide there are only two major suppliers, and the question of how those crucial contracts are awarded is now under scrutiny across the Atlantic. [music]. California, the richest and largest state in America, here the state lottery is big business, with annual sales of more than one point seven billion dollars, it helps fill the Federal coffers through taxation and provides about one percent of the states education budget. [John Kay:] Hello, California state lottery, this is Nicol, can I have your retel I D number please. [Tessa Curtis:] Federal government officials run the California lottery and equipment is supplied by G Tec, the company has experienced meteoric growth, it now runs lotteries in twenty six of the thirty six U S states which operate them. Today G Tec boasts world wide sales of over five hundred million dollars. [speaker010:] I'm gonna need three. [Tessa Curtis:] Shops like this sell lottery tickets all over California, these machines link directly to G Tec's mainframe computer. G Tec has supplied the lottery with equipment since nineteen eighty six. Its contract expired earlier this month, but last year an independent consultancy recommended California replace its existing system, it had already purchased it outright from G Tec for sixty million dollars. [speaker003:] Sure. [speaker001:] I hope so. [Tessa Curtis:] Sharon, director of the California lottery since nineteen ninety one, was appointed by the state governor. A former nurse, she used to run the Illinois lottery. Last February, acting on the report she recommended that a new four hundred million dollar contract be awarded to G Tec for a replacement system, there were no other bidders. [speaker001:] The lottery business is basically a very very small business with limited competition, and for a state the size of California it makes it very difficult to have large competition because only a certain number of companies can actually put in a system of this size. [Tessa Curtis:] The decision created ripples throughout California, Joanne is a computer expert, she was head of the technical division at the California state lottery until her firing earlier this year after a period of sick leave. She has argued for more competition in state lottery tenders. Why did only one company bid for the contract in California? [Richard Branson:] I think there was a perception from other vendors that the bid itself had specifications that could only be met by G Tec. That it was unfairly biased towards the incumbent vendor and therefore chose not to participate, it is very costly for companies to put together proposals to bid for an online game. [Tessa Curtis:] These concerns were reflected in memos like this, Gordon head of the state lottery finance department was part of the team charged with evaluating G Tec's bid, he warned on November the third last year. [Floya:] If we are accused of structuring a massive bid proposal to expressly favour G Tec, and if G Tec end up being the only bidder we should expect to encounter major public relations and or legal problems, and we could end up paying far more than we had anticipated for the needed goods and services. [Tessa Curtis:] Three weeks later in another memo he wrote. [Floya:] I continue to have graver concerns that four months is simply not enough time for any vendor other than G Tec to implement a turnkey online gaming system. [Tessa Curtis:] It was memos like these that concerned politicians like state senator Tom, better known as Jane Fonda's ex-husband, he teaches at a religious college in Oakland. He dislikes gaming, but he is also concerned about the way in which the contract was awarded. The largest er state contract in the history of the state of California, something like four hundred million dollars was let to G Tec, and competition, er I believe was suppressed. Why? We don't know, and that happened not once but several times, leading to er er er a good ne honest professional members of the lottery commission er to warn in internal memos er that this was going to raise legal and public relations problems. Sharon defended the decision, she argues that few companies have the resources to undertake the hefty capital investment needed. [speaker001:] For instance to er to put in this lottery, and put in the new system that we just converted, recently, a couple of days ago err takes tens and tens of millions of millions of dollars, and most companies who come in and work on a percentage of sales, don't get their capital investment back until several years into the contract. [Tessa Curtis:] The contract was probed by the governor's office last March, as a result Pete Wilson sanctioned the go ahead of the G Tec deal, but said that the state lottery's bidding process needed amending. Processing scratch cards like this needs a central computer system, last year a hundred and fifty million dollar contract to do the job was awarded to a smaller rival, High Integrity Systems, in April Mrs cancelled that contract, after, the company says sixty five million dollars had been spent on the project. HISY is currently suing the California lottery. [speaker006:] No luck. [Tessa Curtis:] But a third, much smaller contract twenty three million dollar contract for scratch card machines brought things to a head at two public hearings. Sharon recommended the contract should be awarded to G Tec without any competitive bid, there was a public outcry, ten days ago she was forced to change her recommendation to the state lottery commission and opt for a tender. [speaker001:] There was a lot of controversy involved, a lot of name calling if you will, erm a lot of accusations, none have merit I'll put that right up front, none have merit, I would recommend that you go out to bid to satisfy those concerns. [Tessa Curtis:] That was after Joe, HISY's lawyer had claimed at a previous hearing that yet another G Tec rival, Scientific Games, had been told not to bother bidding by lottery officials. [speaker007:] It is our understanding that were it not for the contact that was made by the state lottery with Scientific Games, that they would be a bidder, the Scientific Games system is a good system. [Tessa Curtis:] G Tec say the allegations are unfounded, and the companies representative Robert was dismayed at the loss of the contract. [speaker008:] We are beginning to wonder what it what it takes to engage in good faith negotiations as a business with the state of California, if all it takes is one person to get up, make some kind of scurrilous allegations, and throw the entire bidding in into cast some kind of doubt upon it. [Tessa Curtis:] But it's not just contractual procedures that are under scrutiny in California. Here at the Sacremento federal court the trial of a lobbyist, Clay, is now under way. has been indicted on twelve counts of racketeering, and offering bribes to elected officials to advance the interests of his clients, one of whom was G Tec. State Senator Allan was a regular recipient of 's patronage. [John Kay:] I'm not going I'm not prepared to in any manner er discuss er the case of the proceedings. [Tessa Curtis:] Senator is now serving a jail sentence for racketeering and tax fraud. In an affidavit at his trial he said... [John Kay:] As part of my agreement with, I received campaign contributions totalling thirteen and a half thousand dollars from G Tec in October ninety eighty six. The campaign contributions were in return for my agreement to, and actually taking, official action at 's request. [Tessa Curtis:] This is where Senator sold his vote to big business. When a G Tec rival Scientific Games sponsored a lottery bill detrimental to G Tec's commercial interests agreed to vote it down. In a new development on Thursday the court heard a conversation between Clay and Senator secretly taped in November nineteen ninety one as part of his cooperation with Federal prosecutors, during that conversation the lobbyist Clay boasted to his one time crony that Sharon, newly appointed by Governor Pete Wilson, was our girl. [speaker010:] Pete Wilson put a new gal in, who's our gal, yeah the woman from Illinois, she ran the Illinois state lottery. [Tessa Curtis:] Sharon was unavailable for comment this weekend, but her spokeswoman Joanne described the recording as a bunch of boasting rantings. In London this weekend Robert described the revelations from the Clay trial as media sensation, Mr who is still on the payroll, he said has not lobbied for G Tec for more than a year. [speaker008:] I think the bottom line of this issue, frankly, is that the U S er attorney the governmental er investigating authorities in this matter have had this information at their disposal for several years now, had there been any question of G Tec's behaviour er we would certainly be the subject of something that we are not right now, and that the bottom line is we have been assured from the outset that G Tec has not been a subject of this investigation, that G Tec's behaviour has been above reproach, and as far as his comments go we we don't really know what context to put them in. They certainly weren't speaking on behalf of the company and appear to be, frankly, incomprehensible ramblings. [Tessa Curtis:] What is the relationship between er your company and Mrs Sharp? [speaker008:] Our relationship between any lottery director and G Tec as a company has always been professional and above reproach and as far as our relationship with the current director in California, we've had instances were we've been successful in California in gaining business while she was a director, and we've been unsuccessful. [Tessa Curtis:] But doubts about G Tec have spread beyond California, in Baltimore, Maryland, the company also operates the state lottery, here too the awarding of contracts is being scrutinized, a forty nine million dollar contract to provide a popular computerized casino game called Keyknow is being investigated by a grand jury. Leon is a local Maryland politician. He dislikes gaming and was instrumental in triggering the current Federal investigation. [speaker003:] In California there was no competition, in Maryland there was no competition, every place that G Tec operates, they go in, they hire the highest price talent, they hire the most politically connected talent and they end up getting the contract. Now what we have to know is whether or not they are in fact getting these contracts because they are the best and the cheapest, or whether they are getting it because they have the best connections and they are paying the most money. [Tessa Curtis:] What do you personally believe? [speaker003:] I believe it's because they have the best connections, and they're paying the most money. [speaker008:] I I can't comment on on comments that you are referencing, however I will say that in Maryland er we displaced an incumbent vendor who had been there a long time, er that vendor was a bit upset as you might imagine with being displaced as a vendor, and in Maryland we had a situation that kind of evolved into the same kind of political row you would expect when a company loses a long time business. [Tessa Curtis:] What are people in Britain to make of this as you come here to present yourselves as a a future er lottery operator? [speaker008:] What people have to keep in mind, and what people really should be very concerned about here in Great Britain is the fact that this is a very contentious industry, that there are a number of competitors out there who have taken to slinging innuendo around as if it were mud. Er frankly, these investigations at any level are very thorough, we depend upon the very thorough investigations in probity of all the government jurisdictions in which we operate. [Tessa Curtis:] The government announced on Friday the appointment of Peter as the National Lottery's director general, he's to ensure the propriety of the national lottery. [speaker001:] Our preoccupation er straightforwardly is that we have a lottery which is run with probity and without impropriety, and the director general has very widespread powers, fact to investigate the backgrounds of any bidders. [Tessa Curtis:] A flutter for the punter is the battle cry, but much will ride on how the burgeoning industry is regulated. [recording ends]

[Christopher Hird:] John former associate of the Krays, we were offered details of his criminal record for four hundred pounds. Rodney, general secretary of Britain's largest trades union, secrets of his credit card and bank account are on sale for two hundred pounds. Sarah, someone who jealously guards her privacy, we bought some of her secrets too, and everyone's personal details can be bought. Tonight Panorama asks, how save are your secrets? [music] Personal information about us, once typed on record cards or stuffed into filing cabinets is now kept on computer, information which once even the bank manager or doctor couldn't find is now accessible to thousands through a computer keyboard, and everyday this information is routinely sold, to employers investigating potential and current employees, to companies investigating competitors and customers, and to anyone willing to pay in a trade which grows, uncontrolled, daily.... Literally dozens of companies in Britain deal in personal data. Earlier this year one of them approached us. Robert said he could reveal the secrets of people's credit card and bank accounts, health and criminal records, national insurance and tax details, and ex-directory telephone numbers. So we decided to test these claims. Nowadays there's an enormous amount of information about us kept in computers, and there are laws which certainly sound as though they should stop it falling into unauthorized hands. Despite this there is a growing market in the sale of personal data, as companies and employers try to find out the details of our personal lives. But how do they do it? To find out four people all well known in their fields agreed to let us find the details of their financial, health, police, and other records. The results of our investigation are deeply disturbing, no individual in the country can be sure that their secrets are safe, banks and other data holders seem powerless to stop the growth in this trade and the Government is unwilling to crack down on it.... We started our investigation by asking Robert to come and see us, we prepared for his visit by hiding a camera in this umbrella, which lay on top of a brief case. [speaker002:] Financial superstore. [Christopher Hird:] Settled down with a cup of tea Robert explained how easy it was to roam the databases of Britain collecting details of people's private lives. There's not a great deal of danger of detection is there? [Robert:] No, no there's not I mean I've been doing this for fifteen years, and quite simply is, if you like, I've been up the ladder, the contacts that were I've had were relatively junior fifteen years ago [speaker002:] Yeah. [Robert:] are reasonably senior, and the great thing is once they do you one favour that's it, and it's better because rather than have, for example a junior police officer, who has no idea of covering his tracks [speaker002:] Mm, mm. [Robert:] the people that I deal with are are D T Is and stuff like that [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [Robert:] and they make sure they every time they do something like this there pension's on the line, there job's on the line [speaker002:] Quite, quite. [Robert:] they make sure that they cover their tracks completely [speaker002:] None of their yeah, yeah. [Robert:] absolutely no chance of detection. [speaker002:] Right, right. [Christopher Hird:] We told that we had to do some preliminary research for possible television programmes. [Rodney:] He said that he who gives a service is worthy of his hire [Christopher Hird:] One of the subjects of our investigation was high profile leader of the low paid, Rodney, head of the trades union UNISON [Rodney:] you won't move over and let a labour government introduce a national minimum wage. [Christopher Hird:] His salary is a matter of public record, but we wanted to discover the truth about his bank account. [speaker002:] We are interested in, you know, in his finances [Robert:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and how much he has in the bank, you know, how he stands with his credit card, so on and so forth. Erm we don't know where he banks, but we do know his home address. [Robert:] That's alright. [speaker002:] Erm so I just, that's the first, I mean, how easy is this going to be do you think, and... [Robert:] Reasonably easy, and reasonably inexpensive. To pick up his bank and credit card details and to check them out, assuming we've got a current address, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Robert:] erm we're talking under two hundred pounds. [speaker002:] Right, okay. And so how long does it take? [Robert:] Anywhere between three and five days. [Christopher Hird:] And indeed, within the week was on the phone with the details of 's bank balance. A few days later he came to the office to give his report in person. [Robert:] Right that one. [speaker002:] This lot, I say it's amazing isn't it? [Robert:] These are all balances as at... what day was yesterday? Either Wednesday evening. [speaker002:] He's just got one account at Midland has he? [Robert:] Yep. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Christopher Hird:] This is a copy of the letter they sent, if you'd like to look at it in your own time and tell whether the information in it is correct. [Rodney:] Bank correct, sort code I wouldn't know I assume it is, balance is er correct, er the cards, erm I mean the information's correct apart from er saying it's a Barclay Card but in principle yeah I mean all that is correct. [Christopher Hird:] Seeing it there, the n the y name of your bank, the fact that amount that's in the account, the the er gon details of your credit card, what's your response to that? [Rodney:] I am just appalled that it's so easy, obviously, to get into these er accounts and and the health records as well, er I mean there really bright here, Mr has no criminal record, I don't know where they went for that, it's true, it's nice to have it er made public but er where did they go to to get that information? Police records? Erm er it's er it's obviously annoying for me personally, er but the worst thing about it is that it can be done at the drop of a hat, you say, I want information on X. and they say, Yes we can provide. And they do provide, er er h I mean I know we want an open society, but that's ridiculous. [Christopher Hird:] 's bank in Catford was just one of 's targets, we do not know exactly how he managed to penetrate their security, but he was undoubtedly helped by the fact that his main business is debt collecting, and he numbers most of the big banks among his clients. This gives him an unrivalled knowledge of the way in which banks operate, and contacts inside them. [Robert:] I mean it's, a case of, er if you like a back scratching exercise, I've got one contact down bank, which for no real upfront money or anything else [speaker002:] Mm. [Robert:] I've helped develop his department into the best collections department in Britain, as far as the the banks are concerned [speaker002:] Yeah, in terms of the response rate [Robert:] yeah [speaker002:] that he gets yeah, yeah. [Robert:] He's got he's got an excellent department, and he's kept it within the bank's old fashioned, nineteenth century guidelines. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [Robert:] And I mean the everybody, everybody in the debt collection industry talks of this department. I've done it for a number of smaller companies and charged a fortune for it [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [Robert:] But this guy I haven't cos this guy can get me a great deal of information [speaker002:] Yeah. [Robert:] and also supplies me a great deal of work. [Christopher Hird:] This back scratching may include taking data directly from the banks computer, but more often it provides details of the bank's systems, which makes it easier for the enquiry agent to embark on the well timed impersonation. [speaker005:] The best time of day would be between twelve noon and three thirty or four o'clock, this is a time when the manager is generally out having one of [LAUGHTER] his long [] lunches, er the assistant manager would probably return to the bank about round about two, two thirty, and the situation in the bank er between these times would be that there would be only a handful of staff, usually junior staff on duty who are more susceptible to passing information than the senior staff. [Christopher Hird:] And it's not just a problem for the bank's branches, it's a similar one for the credit card companies at Southend. They know about the unauthorized release of personal data, they have procedures to try and protect data, but there is a commercial imperative to keep customers happy when they have a problem with their credit card. [speaker006:] What you do not want to be told is erm sorry you've got to come down in person to our offices, they're in Southend by the way, erm please bring along your passport certificate, D N A chart, and chit signed by erm the spiritual leaders of at least three merger major world religions. What you want is to be able to answer a few sensible questions uniquely identifying you, the trouble is there's probably a repertoire of only ten of those questions, you're going to get asked three or four of them, but those questions, your date of birth, your telephone number, the er address of your bank and so on and so forth, if you're a private detective you can get those, you can have them on a sheet of paper and you can pretend to be whoever you like. [Christopher Hird:] Incredibly, impersonation of this sort to get hold of data is not a criminal offense, in this country there is no law as such which makes it illegal to steal information, and the main piece of legislation, the Data Protection Act contains a massive loophole, it only applies to the holders of information not to third parties trying to get their hands on it. Under the act the holder of information has to disclose the type of information they hold, where they've got it from, and who they intend to disclose it to. This is the entry for one of the big banks, they're entitled to disclose information to a whole host of organizations, like debt collecting companies, credit reference agencies, private detectives, and so on. A disclosure of data under the act is only unauthorized if they knowingly give it to someone who is not entitled to it. [speaker005:] There's not a lot the act can do in terms for example of prosecuting people who use deception, it may just be possible I've been advised, but it's extremely difficult from an evidential and other point of view to do that. The act really sets out to control the computer users who have information on all of us, or on individuals generally, and their servants or agents, their employees and so on, it doesn't set out to control these third parties. [Christopher Hird:] The computer misuses act sounds like another law which might help, it's enforced at this police unit in London, but it too seems powerless to stop outsiders impersonating or bribing their way to get hold of personal data. [speaker006:] The computer misuse act is aimed at criminal activity, it was primarily aimed at people who either hack into other computers or misuse the computers that are in front of them. It did not aim for the situation that we've been discussing, where people are trying to get the information. Now because of course we now have more computers in society than we ever did before, and we don't have lots of paper files before us inevi invariably, the information is being held upon the computer. So we ourselves as members of the public erm we don't have the formal protection in law, probably, that we should have. [speaker007:] It is aimed either at the external hacker of which there are far fewer than press reports suggest or at the employee who though they have legitimate access legitimate lim limited access to a computer, nevertheless go beyond that authorization, but in order for the act to be successful, in order to get a successful prosecution, the prosecution have got to show that the access was unauthorized, and in the absence of clear codes of conduct, clear on-screen messages, that can be quite tricky. [Christopher Hird:] So, there is no the two acts that people might think have some roll in stopping this do not [speaker007:] Do not actually provide the protection that people think. [Christopher Hird:] So is there any sort of protection in the law? [speaker007:] No. [Christopher Hird:] Banks don't like to admit that there employees let secrets escape from their computers, which is possibly why none of the individual banks were willing to appear in this programme. Privately they know it happens. But it's not just financial details which are for sale, you can buy virtually anyone's employment details, as we found out. [Naomi March:] Bing bong. [Lenny Henry:] Darling, I'm home. [Christopher Hird:] Naomi is an actor, known for her part in the Lenny Henry show. [Lenny Henry:] [clears throat] Have a nice day at the office, dear. [LAUGHTER] [Naomi March:] Hello parks and gardens yeah, I'd like to report a missing flower bed. [Lenny Henry:] Claudette. [Christopher Hird:] Like many in her profession, her work is intermittent, and with her permission, in August we asked Robert to try to get hold of her employment details. [Lenny Henry:] Saying it with flowers. [Christopher Hird:] quickly obliged. He told us that, at the time was unemployed, and within a few days he even gave the date and place where she signed on for unemployment benefit. [Naomi March:] I don't know when when you got this, at that time it was correct that I was no longer working, that I'd finished working... for as it says here er Bill theatrical company on the fourth of September. [Christopher Hird:] That's correct then is it? [Naomi March:] That's absolutely correct, yes. Er as is my tax reference number and my [LAUGHTER] national insurance number []. [Christopher Hird:] Both of those numbers are correct? [Naomi March:] Absolutely correct. God... erm [Christopher Hird:] Now subsequent to erm us getting that letter, they told us that you er you'd signed on. Is that correct? [Naomi March:] Yes. [sniff] [Christopher Hird:] They told us within three days of your signing on. [Naomi March:] My Go what within three days?... They what they knew after I'd had my fresh claim interview or something like that? [Christopher Hird:] Mm. [Naomi March:] But how it's so sh how? [Robert:] Basically what happens when you start signing on is you go into a national unemployment computer, and that national unemployment computer will pick up, as long as you've got the date of birth and the national insurance number, you can pick up when a person started signing o and where they're signing, you then check with the local office to see what address they're claiming from and what their claiming for and everything else. [Christopher Hird:] also managed to gain access to yet another computer, he got her ex-directory telephone number. Worrying for her, and the twenty percent of the population who are ex-directory. Like many people, some years ago was troubled by nuisance telephone calls. [Naomi March:] Everybody gets phone calls like that, unfortunately occasionally, but it kind of I went through a phase of it happening to me so I therefore had to change my phone number because it was er it was really unpleasant being woken er up by these calls. [Christopher Hird:] And how long has that particular number been your ex-directory number? [Naomi March:] Er probably about three years, and I've had no dodgy calls. [Christopher Hird:] There are private inquiry agents who offer the service of getting hold of people's ex-directory telephone numbers. How are they able to do that? [speaker010:] Right, erm that's something that I don't really think I should erm reply to even though we are aware of the situation and are taking steps to identify the problem and put a stop to it. [Christopher Hird:] But it is something that you recognize as a problem? [speaker010:] Oh yes, yes, obviously we need to keep our data secure. [Naomi March:] Well it's a threat to your personal safety. Absolutely, I mean I feel more so about my phone number and address, my phone number particularly erm you know money's money and so what, but when it's when it's your personal safety I think I think it's appalling. [speaker010:] The an ex-directory number is available to lots of other people, erm you if you were ex-directory yourself would give your ex- directory number to friends, family, maybe work colleagues, maybe er er you might fill in forms, mailshots and you may put your phone number down on that, salesmen. [Christopher Hird:] So you think that the number of instances where it's your s your security that fails are really relatively small when people get hold of ex-directory numbers. [speaker010:] Yes I do, I think it's very tightly controlled within B T. [Christopher Hird:] Do you think it's at all possible that anybody who has this number, like presumably your agent has it or friends have it, is it at all possible anyone would have given it out to somebody? [Naomi March:] No because everybody who has it is aware of the fact that you know they've se known that I've changed my number before and they know why. [speaker010:] If a B T employee did disclose information against all their training and against the rules that we've got in place in B T, then we would obviously take that very seriously indeed and erm dismissal would no doubt follow if it was found that th the person had disclosed information. [Robert:] We've got the see if you can get us this number, and nine times out of ten he comes back and says here it is, and on the tenth occasion he'll come back and say, Too risky. [Christopher Hird:] The risk which a B T employee runs for unauthorized disclosure is a criminal prosecution. The same sanction is also meant to protect criminal records in the police national computer, but even here it's not a sufficient deterrent. Is this sort of out of the question, or [Robert:] No, we can pick up on a a criminal record if he's got it. [Christopher Hird:] Right... I mean I don't want to sort of pry into how [LAUGHTER] you do your business [] that the in the the getting of that information that's that is relatively straightforward, is it? [Robert:] Yes it is it's literally frightening a police contact, erm that simple [Christopher Hird:] Yep, I see. [Robert:] it's relatively straightforward, his own computer will give access to it. [Christopher Hird:] Right. [cough] To test this claim we set on John. Well we want that. [Robert:] Tim's got it. [speaker002:] I've got it. [Robert:] Tim, Tim. [Christopher Hird:] Thanks very much Mr [Rodney:] Shaun you want wine, you want wine. [Christopher Hird:] No, no, no, no. [Rodney:] Well it's not mine [LAUGHTER] never drink when I'm working. [Christopher Hird:] Once an associate of criminals such as the Krays and Richardsons, he has a number of convictions for violent crime. But now living in South London he hasn't been behind bars for ten years. Just finished. [Rodney:] Good on ya. There you see a man that works in Peckham, you don't see many of them. [Christopher Hird:] You agreed that we could try for the purposes of this program to find out what we could about your criminal record and also about your health records. [Rodney:] Yes. [Christopher Hird:] Things that are not available to the public generally. [speaker002:] Well I was shocked when I heard that that that that yours whi yours you yours would attempt to you got my permission, yes but, I'd be highly surprised if if you got them. [Christopher Hird:] 's criminal record, along with five million others, is stored here on the police national computer, based at Hendon. In these data banks are also vehicle details, fingerprint descriptions, and a vast amount of other information. This can be accessed within seconds by police officers across the country. The senior police officer with overall responsibility for data protection is John. [speaker005:] It is most important that the people have confidence in the way in which police handle this data. [Christopher Hird:] Why do you think it's important it does remain confidential though, I mean why why shouldn't all this be, you know, in the public domain anyway? [speaker005:] Well now, there's a question which raises the whole problem of privacy. Erm that in fact one of the odd points here is that when a person is convicted, that information is public, but nevertheless as the years go by and indeed er this has been recognized in for instance the rehabilitation of offenders act, it becomes private information and if someone's looking for a job the fact that he was convicted of an offence many years ago should not be er er relevant. [speaker006:] Hold on one moment and I'll just check for you. [Christopher Hird:] And to keep this sort of information confidential, those operating the P N C have to follow a detailed compliance manual. Every enquiry and who made it is logged, and there are regular spot checks, but still information seeps out. But their have been failings of the system haven't there, I mean there have been occasions [speaker005:] Oh I I would be it would be nonsense to say that there hasn't been failings of the system, sometimes through the carelessness of an officer, sometimes, certainly in the initial stage, because of their lack of awareness of the er provisions of the act. But I think that has now been tightened up and indeed the log of which I speak, and the audit manual has indeed increased the awareness of officers, increased their care in the handling of personal data, and the number of complaints is in fact reducing. [Christopher Hird:] These measures may make getting information off the P N C more difficult, but they do not make it impossible. More than one and a half thousand local police stations have online access to the computer. When we prepared for our next visit to, the secret camera was hidden in a jacket, the lens behind a badge in the buttonhole. Relaxed and expansive in his office, explained how he used a local policeman to obtain details from 's criminal record on the police national computer. So is that off the the P N C ultimately or all from his local? [Robert:] No that's that's off the the P N C it I mean it's obviously through his local police station but it's off the the the national computer. [Christopher Hird:] Right. [Robert:] But our guy very I mean basically what happened is our guy waited till a senior officer went into the the screen [Christopher Hird:] Mm. [Robert:] erm when he was asked about and stood over his shoulder and trying to take mental notes. [Christopher Hird:] Yeah, yes. If there's a lot there, hard to take the note I suppose [Robert:] Yeah. [Christopher Hird:] I mean it's cos it's not of course as we know, it's not a secret that he has one, it's just a question of exactly what it is, it's the [Robert:] Yeah. [Christopher Hird:] erm. [Robert:] That's it. I don't know, I mean these are definitely the sentences. [Christopher Hird:] What we were told about that your criminal record is that you had convictions for armed robbery and aggravated assault, is that out of the record that you were aware of is that correct? [Rodney:] Yes, yes, I'm that is correct, yes, but th th this is just amazing to me, that er this th this can happen, you know what I mean? [Christopher Hird:] But there are companies who advertise in Yellow Pages that they will do investigations on behalf of employers of future employees. And when you talk to them they will say we can find out whether they've got a criminal record or not, how can they offer that service in the public domain without having access to your computer? [speaker005:] ... The service which is provided by those people is in fact questionable, and indeed we ourselves would be interested in how in fact they obtain that information. [Christopher Hird:] But it wasn't only criminal records we were interested in, we said we wanted 's medical records too. [Robert:] His health record, for someone that does this sort of work, his health is terrible. [Christopher Hird:] Without the knowledge of 's G P, obtained information from his medical files. There's a reference there to you being referred by her to Greenwich district Hospital. [Rodney:] Yes. [Christopher Hird:] Erm for a certain treatment in October ninety two and ag also more recently, is that correct? [Rodney:] yes, that's that's that's that's that's correct, yes. [Christopher Hird:] That's correct, and that the further down, I mean it says that er there is a er it says that the reason you've had been the reason you've been sent for this treatment is because of er a particular condition you've got. [Rodney:] Yes. [Christopher Hird:] Yeah, that's correct? [Rodney:] Yes, straight. [Christopher Hird:] And the la I think the last paragraph which is er refers to some advice that has been given to you. [Rodney:] Advised by his doctor to give up, straight, [LAUGHTER] to give up smoking [] [Christopher Hird:] Yes. [Rodney:] [LAUGHTER] and give up drink [] yes that's right yes. [Christopher Hird:] So all of that information matches? [Rodney:] Aye yeah that's that that that I mean I've went to that doctor and and it's like a doctor's surgery surely is should be sacrament yo you shouldn't, know what I mean? Medical confidentiality you're you're just sitting there with bloody... a private conversation we that I went for treatment with my doctor, and and the recommendations that she's given me in, well well what's the point er what er what's going on? [Christopher Hird:] Now why I mean do you think it matters that these things are so that these things are so, that these things which we thought were in, you know private to you, and not available to other people so easily, why do you think it matters that they actually are apparently in return for mo payment, are available to anyone? [Rodney:] It's scandalous, scandalous, that means that people in this country have got no privacy at all. None whatsoever, they can can't even have a confidentiality with a practitioner. If that's the day they'll be telling me they can get documentation now from priests in the confessional, that'll be the next bloody thing you'll be telling me, I can't under you know what I mean, what's it all about? [Christopher Hird:] Although 's G P herself did not release the health records, getting hold of such data seems to be an easy task for the private investigator. At the beginning of September we asked Robert to investigate our fourth target, Sarah. And I don't know whether her health records will be of relevance or not really, erm it's much more likely the health records of her daughter who's called Flora. [Robert:] Right. [Christopher Hird:] Erm and Flora she's called. [Robert:] Mhm. [Christopher Hird:] Erm would be of, you know, could be of relevance. [Robert:] Okay. [Christopher Hird:] Yeah? [Robert:] No problem. [Christopher Hird:] It should have been a problem because the personal details of Flora are meant to be secret, under the terms of a high court injunction granted in the middle of last month, Sarah is not allowed to discuss anything about her daughter with anyone, other than her legal and medical advisors. [speaker007:] They have information about daugh about my daughter which I do not, I cannot imagine how they have obtained it, I am absolutely appalled. I spent the past nine and a half years doing everything I can to keep everything about my daughter secret. They have the name and address of the school she goes to,... I, goodness, this is monstrous. I had my daughter treated under an assumed name until she was five, to try and prevent the press from finding out things about her, and they have the secret name that I used for here in here. It is believed that this surname is used by her mother to divert attention from her. The names of my G Ps and their address, when I was last seen, or when Flora I suppose their talking about Flora, Flora was last seen, by our G P.... Outrageous, this is wicked, it's monstrous, but I'm absolutely appalled, now I'm not allowed to speak about her because that's going to be harmful to her, but any Tom, Dick, or Harry can get information which they have no right to about her and about me, about anybody else, and can flog it. [Christopher Hird:] seems to have got most of his information about Sarah from the data held at her local Family Health Services Authority in Bristol, registered under the data protection act, it holds a large amount of information on patients within its area including the name and address of a patient's doctor. One day in September, Flora's doctor received a call from someone who claimed to be from the Family Health Services Authority, asking for details from his files, suspicious, he gave nothing away. [Naomi March:] I then rang the Family Health Authority er myself, and they'd never heard of the person and had no trace of of the name I gave them. Erm told me that they had a lot of or a lot a number of people ringing purporting to be someone asking for information, and they like to keep a log of these bogus phone calls, I then rang the patients mother and and told her what had happened as quickly as I could. [Christopher Hird:] What is the thing about this that concerns you most of all? [speaker007:] The implications for my daughter's safety and security, and and mine and the rest of my family's, because there have been a number of occasions over the years when I've had to turn to the police... because of my anxiety about that when... there's been a lot of attention from the media and when the press have... published our address and so on erm and we've had I've had specific death threats particularly against my daughter on one occasion.... So it's that is very alarming to think that erm somebody putting it about... or happy to make available to others information about my domestic arrangements and my habits.... And of course the pro the information about Flora is the is the thing which concerns me most. [Robert:] Er, anything else? [Christopher Hird:] Erm, yes there is one other thing about the program, er which you might be interested in. [Robert:] Mhm. [Christopher Hird:] The program's about you. Erm it's about how people sell personal data er for money to other people erm and erm you're quite er you will be quite a substantial part of the program. [Robert:] ... Hmm.... Naming us? [Christopher Hird:] Yes, that's right. I just wondered what your response to it was, seeing as er what you're doing is getting information to which you're not entitled, and selling it for money to other people. [Robert:] Ah, I'm sorry I can't comment. Thanks. [gets up from chair and leaves] [Christopher Hird:] Well don't you think that it's really rather improper for you to be doing this? After all people are entitled to some secrecy [running down stairs] aren't they, about their [breaking furniture] You don't feel that there's any need at all to give any explanation of your behaviour? [noise traffic] You don't think that an explanation is due here? This information after all should have received confidential and does belong to other people, doesn't it? [Robert:] What I thinks embarrassing is that [Christopher Hird:] And you're just stealing it you're just stealing it so that you can make money aren't you? [noise traffic] [shouting] Do people have a right to have their health records confidential do they not? []... Have you got nothing to say what so ever? [Robert:] 'Fraid not, no. [footsteps]... [Christopher Hird:] Robert is not alone in selling personal information from data banks. Many companies, using only the most casual euphemisms, offer these services, so we spent a day on the phone talking to detective agencies listed in Yellow Pages, asking them what they had to offer. We said we were a research company thinking of vetting a future employee. Before they came we removed all trace of our connection to television, rearranged the office furniture a bit, and hid a camera in a bankers box. [Lenny Henry:] The bank enquiry line [Christopher Hird:] If they're clean. [Lenny Henry:] Okay. [Christopher Hird:] Yeah. [Lenny Henry:] To obtain overdraft facility, current bank balance, and comments on how the account has been run, [Christopher Hird:] Yeah. [Lenny Henry:] that would cost you fifty pounds for that. [Christopher Hird:] Right. [Lenny Henry:] Plus V A T. [speaker010:] Right we can supply bank information for instance we can supply you with the balance, erm we should be able to let you know what sort of standing orders there are, erm but that... would be charged at an extra rate because [Christopher Hird:] Yeah. [Lenny Henry:] we would have to find out [Christopher Hird:] Yeah. [Lenny Henry:] about the bank and that's not easy. [speaker010:] It's a grey area, and everything that we do is totally ethical and professional, but obviously what were talking about is obtaining information. [Christopher Hird:] Yeah. There is a hell of a lot of information er at at mm the Fraud Squad Yeah. I E associates and that sort of thing Yeah, yeah. which I can have checked, you know what I mean Yeah, yeah. you throw the name Bill Boggins into that Yeah. and it'll come up that he's and that's probably the sort of person your going to get somebody who's is a smell about rather than Yeah. do you know what I mean? Yeah. [Robert:] And so that's why erm you know we we only use certain contacts who we know are very reliable [Christopher Hird:] Yeah, yeah. [Robert:] erm and in a position really where where they wouldn't be challenged [Christopher Hird:] Right. [Robert:] but of course they they want to be paid... quite well I [Christopher Hird:] Sure. [Robert:] hasten to add. [speaker002:] To ascertain s criminal record hundred pounds, to ascertain that. If it's got a full criminal record if their known er that could be it could be as cheap as fifty pounds, for a criminal record I can't make any guarantees on that [Christopher Hird:] Right. [speaker002:] Because the there's only one way of obtaining somebody's criminal record and that's getting a police officer to do it. [Christopher Hird:] To do the enquiring? [speaker002:] Yes. [Christopher Hird:] Right. [Rodney:] Basically we have erm access. Not official access, but we do have access. [Christopher Hird:] Yeah. [speaker005:] I know people in this sort of line of business who will sit here and tell you all sorts of [Christopher Hird:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] crap. [Christopher Hird:] Here, here. [speaker005:] Excuse me er anyway it's bu really there's no, we haven't got a crystal ball you know. [Christopher Hird:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker005:] It's about grey matter and tr and and a bit of, you know, ducking and diving and a bit of erm cun and it's it's who you know and not what you know [phone rings] I mean really, excuse me one moment. [phonecall starts] He's a good lad. [Christopher Hird:] Yesterday we got five tracing agents to come into our office, all of them offered to get details of people's bank accounts, [speaker005:] Mm. [Christopher Hird:] details several cases details from the er the police national computer, er for sale at prices varying from sort of fifty pounds to a hundred and fifty pounds [speaker005:] Mhm. [Christopher Hird:] and we've just rung these people up from the Yellow Pages, I mean this does suggest doesn't it that there's quite a f quite a a big market out there for this stuff? [speaker005:] Well it may well suggest it, I mean I have no no reason to doubt the statement you've made or even statements made in newspapers, they've added to my concern from my own investigations. What I cannot do is go around and do a full enquiry to find out what the position is, an enquiry indeed might be difficult, because you may have found these people but actually pinning down er to who does it and what actually happens may be more difficult. [Christopher Hird:] It is not clear why it should be that difficult, routinely, every day, enquiry agents are used to discover details of employees and customers financial, health, and criminal records. Very, very large solicitors firms, insurance companies, and very large multinationals, these were just some of the customers of which the private detectives who visited us boasted. And they will never be short of custom until the government acts. We asked the Home Office to appear in this program, but they refused, instead they sent us a letter full of encouraging noises about how seriously they took the question of data protection. However, serious action to close the loopholes in the law will have to wait on the parliamentary timetable and the European legislation, until then, with more and more companies wanting to know the truth about their employees, competitors and suppliers, and with more and more information being put onto computers, the trade in personal data looks set to thrive. [speaker005:] In the security world everything is a compromise, as there are no absolutes erm you want an absolutely secure health service, don't have a health service, don't let ever give any information out, erm if you fall ill away from your home er you're called into a hospital, you would like the thought that er the hospital can ring up your doctor and get information about you fairly quickly you don't want to have a whole bureaucratic erm apparatus saying no that information isn't available. [Christopher Hird:] It sounds as though it's going to go on forever then. [speaker005:] It could well go on forever unless one of two things happens, unless everybody guards themselves against giving information away, which as a matter of practice many will do, and many probably won't, or secondly that some legislation is brought about to make this an offence, and to treat it seriously. [Christopher Hird:] There seems little doubt that legislation would reduce the extent to which confidential personal data is sold. But as those who want the information get more cunning, we may find that our personal privacy has been eroded forever. [speaker006:] My own feeling is that er er as against someone who is er reasonably determined and reasonably methodical there is very little privacy, there is more privacy if you are extremely rich and can afford to have bank accounts in Liechtenstein and can afford to hire lawyers to prevent stories about you appearing in the newspapers, but for th for the majority of us erm there is very little privacy. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Check that. Okay that's on. [Ned:] We er when you. [speaker001:] Right okay. [Ned:] Forty three. [speaker001:] That's it on now then. [Ned:] Yes. Well that's when I first started farming. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] After I left the council, I worked for the council for ten years and then I stopped the council in nineteen forty six for I I telled you that afore have I. [speaker001:] That's right. Yes. [Ned:] I couldn't leave them you see with the war on. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Well then in later years t baling came to be a great fashion in Orkney here. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And er J and W in Kirkwall started to bale hay in Orkney but it didn't pay for you to take to Kirkwall everyday to go to since the war. And if it was bad weather he'd to take them home again. So he asking me if I would do it. So he gave me a baler and I did all of Ork around about Birsay and Sanday and round the area here and baled their hay to them. And then he bought another baler and he worked with two balers. But there was no balers in Orkney then at all, that was the first balers that came here. [speaker001:] Aha. So was that first baler belong to this chap in Kirkwall? [Ned:] J and W. [speaker001:] Oh right? [Ned:] He was the agent you see for for International Balers. [speaker001:] I see. [Ned:] And he was going to start old Charlie, a very old man. The grandfather of the people that has it now. And he wanted to help me to get under way you see but I wasn't long started farming. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] So then he bought another baler. Well then people started to get balers of their own and er d I didn't er get so much work. But I did the whole of Orkney for a while I did everything that could be done. And then later on combining started. And er for the and then at Rendall took on two new combines from Ma from the Massey Ferguson company that was them days. And of course they didn't hire with them. But the man who lived at in Rendall, he was going to retire. So I bought his combine from him. So I hired it out to people and work night and day when the weather was bonny, combining their barley and that. And then I bought another one and then I bought a third one so that I had three combines but there were no other combines on Orkney at all. That was the first of the combines. But what date it was I couldn't tell you but if you like to mind when when they first started. [speaker001:] Aye. [Ned:] I think it'd been about nineteen sixty maybe but I'm not sure. [speaker001:] Mhm. So [Ned:] And the and then the the council, they used to cut the roads with scythes you ken, cut the weeds on the roads. and I worked for the council so he spoke to me one day and he said, Will you cut the roads with a tractor and a mower. I says, Yes I'll cut them. So he in the paper then asking farmers, anybody had a tractor and a mower if they cut a certain section of the road. Well he didn't get much satisfaction with that for some people wouldn't do it. So I said, I'll cut all the roads in the West Mainland if you want. So they took me on and the to cut all the roads from Kirkland right to West Mainland right out into Kirkwall and. That's the end you see. Some other body did the East Mainland. And I cut the whole roads in three weeks time with a mower. And I oh it's you see three weeks to cut the Isle of Orkney mind. I wonder how long it takes them now to cut the roads. And they paid me sixteen and six an hour for the tractor and a mower and myself. And I started in the morning at eight o'clock and I didn't stop till midnight. I did sixteen hours every day, six days a week. I didn't cut on a Sunday. For I had to stay at home and look after me farm for. But me wife was good then you see and so was my son and they both worked the farm you see. And looked after it and I went to do this job for. It was. [speaker001:] Mhm. Was it? So what happened afore the machinery came in? Did they actually have folk with scythes? [Ned:] Scythes. Aha all cut with scythes long ago. I mind it all cut with scythes. [speaker001:] The the verges? [Ned:] Yes. [speaker001:] The road verges? [Ned:] Yes. See the road verges wasn't the same long ago, it was ditches. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] On the roads. But as i told you before, when the council started preparing for Hitler, in when I went on the council work in nineteen thirty six I had to fill the ditches in there. And make verges on the roads. And they widened the roads and tarmacadamed them. Well they only started tarmacadam in nineteen thirty six. That's the first they started in Orkney. It was the road was still there he had to do it and they were put there by the government. To be a road surveyor and a travelling foreman. And Peter was a super foreman. But he was coming for doing the borders Peebles and Selkirk down that and Roxburgh. [cough] And they were a they were you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] At the job. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And they took me on in nineteen thirty six to help them you see. For I was looking for a job I was newly married in nineteen thirty six make a pound or two. [speaker001:] Mhm. I see. So how did they work it with the scythes? Was the council chaps employed [Ned:] Council men put out with scythes. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] And a lorry you see to cut the road verges. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Well they found they could do it far better with a tractor and a mower. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And then you see the the council I did that for nineteen years. And then I stopped farming in nineteen seventy cut it till sixty nine. Well the council started then and they took on machines of their own. Which they work on the same system as a as a rotovator. And it cuts up the grass in wee bits and instead of er making the roads better it makes them worse. For it cuts up the grass like farmyard manure, it chops it up you see and it rots quick and makes the grass grow quicker. But when I cut the roads it was cut with a finger mower. And it lay flat and it rotted the grass out. And it only needed to be cut once a year. Now when they cuts the roads every week if there was a watch as you go by, you see them cutting the whole time with a tractor. The council. How do you like to hear what it's costing now. The old fashioned way was the best way to do it. [speaker001:] Mhm. And when they cut it with scythes, did they gather it? [Ned:] No no they left it lying. [speaker001:] They just left it lying. [Ned:] Yes I rot it out you see. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] To rot out the grass. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] See anybody who cuts their garden with a mower, if you drag the grass off, it doesn't grow so quick. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] But if you let it lie it manures it you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Till you put it down on a on a field. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And that's what's happening with the council you see. They cut it and chop it up. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And makes it s small. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] Well it rots quick. [speaker001:] That's right. Mhm. So when you had your combines, did you did you go round the neighbouring peedie farms [Ned:] Yes they used to book for cutting you see. I used to go and cut their barley to them and I bought a thing for drying the barley too. [speaker001:] Oh. [Ned:] A great big Leicester thing. That blowed the moisture out of it. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Ned:] If you'd anything to put in it you'd blowed the a the dampness out you see and dried it. [speaker001:] Oh. [Ned:] What they called a moisture extractor. I bought it from. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] A very powerful thing. You couldn't stand in front of it there was that much power in it. [speaker001:] Oh right. And was it mostly the bigger farms that wanted you [Ned:] Anybody who wanted combining I did it. [speaker001:] Aha. Was it mostly the bigger farms or did the peedie ones [Ned:] Oh the peedie ones did it four or five or six acre you cut the and bag it the barley to them put it in the er the bagger on the machine you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] But in latter days they came with a tank and they put it out and put it in a trailer you see but I just worked with bags when it was the first of it. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Ned:] But you can't get bags now except plastic ones it was all jute bags then. I worked every day there was weather. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] If it was a bonny day you worked on till sometimes three in the morning they were doing the. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] You would work any hours to suit the weather you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah. [Ned:] And it's never hurt me hard work. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It must have been quite a spectacle though when the first combine came [Ned:] Oh folk folk came form far and near to see it. [speaker001:] Is that right? [Ned:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ned:] On a bonny day. [speaker001:] Ah. It would be quite a unusual thing at first. [Ned:] Oh it was the first that ever started in Orkney, nobody ever thought You see before they used to cut their crop and set it in stokes. Then you used to build it in a stack and then you used to take it in the barn and thresh it. Going with a combine it's all done in one operation you see. The the barley's in the bag. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Then you do the it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And three great big bins from from the they called them and I had three bins in my shed that I stored the barley in and I put the moisture extractor into them and it blew It had wee in it and it blew all the moisture out. And when you brought it for your cattle like the highland parkway making whisky. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] It fermented you see the cattle was for it. [speaker001:] Oh. [Ned:] It fermented and made it very sweet. And it made your dairy cows milk awful good. [speaker001:] Oh right. Mhm. [Ned:] We worked with dairy as well, seventy two dairy cows. [speaker001:] Mhm. Right. I suppose the milking machines coming in would have been another [Ned:] They come in in nineteen forty seven, I started dairy in nineteen forty seven. I shifted to this farm in nineteen forty three but I d worked on the council in nineteen forty six. And then I start dairy work. Well dairy cows. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And bought a milking machine. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] used to start to work with the farmers you see but I didn't. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And put it in bulk tanks you ken taking milk away down in a tank I mean we used to take it away in cans. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Ten gallon cans. On a lorry. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Take it into Kirkwall. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. Mm. A big change from the from the milking by hand. [Ned:] Oh same as always. Yes [speaker001:] You know [Ned:] I never milked by hand it was always the machine. [speaker001:] Yeah. Do you mind seeing folk doing on the [Ned:] Oh yes er when I was at home as a wee boy everybody milked by hand and give their calves the milk then to drink. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] But then later to suckle their calves, it's less work. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Everything their doing now is always making less work and that's why there's so much unemployed. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] They're cutting labour you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And there's no It doesn't help any for anything's so expensive to buy, the machinery. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] like a combine now's about thirty or forty thousand. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Well that's a lot of wages. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And they's only used a s short time of the year. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] But it's only used in the bonny weather you see. [speaker001:] I see. [Ned:] Tractors are used for the twelve months you see but not a combine. [speaker001:] Mhm. More worthwhile getting a tractor right enough. [Ned:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. That's true. [Ned:] And then i when I was was about the trout fishing in the loch here. Well my gra my great grandfather came from Sanday with his wife and a wee daughter. And my grandfather married the daughter and he came to. Harray Loch and the Stenness Loch were fishing. With the tourist trade so they always kept boats you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] So we worked with boats those lochs for four generations. And my mother came from the farm along the shore and they were in the same position they worked with boats too. And you hired them out to the tourist trade. But in them days there wasn't many tourists came to Orkney for they didn't have transport, no cars. But latterly you see there's an awful lot of folks coming and buses on tours and that and the tourist trade on the Loch here's busy you know. There's more folk working don't make so much money on it. [speaker001:] Mhm. Did your father do that when you were peedie farmers? [Ned:] And my grandfather and my great grandfather. All did and so did my mother's side, they came from the farm up the L up the Loch I mean, that's where my mother came from.. [speaker001:] Mhm. What sort of folk was it then? Was it gentry folk coming up for their holidays? [Ned:] Yes they came for for their holidays. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And no they come from all the world and hire boats that people would make. All over the continent and all over the States and that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Aye show you people you'll see in the Loch not last July but the July came to the States. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] I can show you photographs of them in the Loch here. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah. So when you first started hiring out boats was it where did you get your boats from was it [Ned:] Well I mean, they were handed down for generations. our forebears had boats see and you either bought new ones or repaired the ones that was there. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] But my family done that for four generations. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] On the Harray Loch and the Stenness Loch. [speaker001:] That's some while. [Ned:] It was a while ago. [speaker001:] Yeah. That's some while. Were your boats made by a local boat builder? [Ned:] Well somebody built them at the boat builders in Orkney built some. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] They used to they they started boat building in Finstown where the the builders is now you ken, what do you call them. [speaker001:] Aye [Ned:] builders, what do you call them? [speaker001:] Erm [Ned:] Well that's where they started boat building there. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] At that big shed. [speaker001:] I see. [Ned:] What do they call that place now? [speaker001:] Erm has the dolphins, that it? [Ned:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] Well that's where they started building boats at. [speaker001:] Something I can't remember what it is. [Ned:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. I see so that was originally where the boat builders was. [Ned:] And they came with a and started there. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] was the name. And the same firm's working in Ayrshire yet. Descendant of them making making boats in Ayrshire. But I get people to the fishing here asking if the boat's built there. By. And all grand boats. They built awful bonny boats. But there a that builds boats some of them you're in the builds boats. [speaker001:] Mhm. Right. And I suppose they would be wooden boats would they [Ned:] Aye, timber boats but now they're making fibreglass ones but they're not so good in the loch for the the water runs up them quicker they're so smooth. bodies are made in in planks you see and there's a rib in it. And it keeps the water from running up them so quick. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] In windy weather. When you get strong winds here in the sometimes in the Summer. You get gale force winds sometimes. [speaker001:] Mm. Did you fish much yourself then? [Ned:] Oh yes I always went fishing as a wee boy, me and my brother. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] We used to catch a lot of fish and it was always in them days you used to catch the trout in the Summer and you used to dry them on the on the dykes and hang them on the line like you could see haddocks and that drying. You've seen that on South Ronaldsay you know. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Ned:] We used to dry the trout here. [speaker001:] I suppose trout would be your fish of the Summer rather than er [Ned:] Well get it Aye it was only trout you get in in the Harry Loch you see. You'd get a chance salmon. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. What about Stenness, do you ever get the sea fish coming. [Ned:] Well it used to be the Stenness Loch was very good till they built the barriers. The barriers spoilt it. [speaker001:] Is that right? [Ned:] Yes when the barriers wasn't there you see, the water came right out through Hoy and went right out at. And kept Stromness and Kirkwall clear of sewerage. Now you see it's blocked and good now is at. Or [speaker001:] Mm [Ned:] or er Hoy. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] So it made the Stenness Loch polluted for the as pollution comes in the Stenness Loch and it f spoilt the fishing here. Since the barriers was built. That's my experience of the happening in my time. [speaker001:] Mm. Do you mind actually, what would you ever get sea fish in Stenness Loch then? [Ned:] Oh it's sea trout you get there. Come from the sea. [speaker001:] Would you ever get like or sillocks. [Ned:] Oh yes you get sillocks. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] And Stenness it's sea is salt you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. Would you get a mixture, would you ever get the freshwater fish as well as the sea fish? [Ned:] Oh yes you get them too. They come through to the [speaker001:] Aha. Must be kind of it's kind of unusual really [LAUGHTER] [Ned:] Yeah [speaker001:] both the sea and the [Ned:] Well when i was a wee boy the loch had never looked it before the barriers was built When I was going to school Well I was born I started a co school at nineteen eighteen. Well there was a air station at Howtown at er Stenness then for sea planes landing in the loch. That was during the the first war. And seen gillies going out for the Stenness Hotel s with sailing boats, I've seen eight leaving there in the morning I went to school. All on Stenness, they never went to Harray for there were plenty of fish in Stenness you see. But now you can fish Stenness all dy and you'll never see a fish. The sewage has spoilt it whether you can't come it it's all dirty. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Would that be where the local the local sort of gentry tourists stayed then at the Stenness Hotel? [Ned:] there wasn't there's no other hotels, one at the but there's very few hotels then. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] It was it was called Hotel then. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] built it and he built he had the Kirkwall Hotel, the Stenness Hotel and the Stromness Hotel and an hotel in in Shetland. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] And the hotels he put up, he bought them in Glasgow, there'd be an exhibition hotel made of wood, built in Glasgow. He took two of them up here and took them in sections and built one in Stenness and another in. And this man came from the Highlands of Scotland. I remember him finding going to the school. His son took over the Kirkwall Hotel when he grew up. And his grandson did couldn't manage the hotels at all and him he went away he lived in Vancouver and Canada a while. And I don't know if he's living or dead. That was three I remember. [speaker001:] Er. So did they just keep the hotel open all year for these visitors? [Ned:] No but they didn't use it for they didn't have a license then, they only got a license after the war you see. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Ned:] And the same the Kirkwall Hotel was kept open and the Stromness Hotel but the Stenness Hotel was closed. For they'd no work you see and the staff there was paid off. For I remember it all shut up. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] They'd no They'd no electric or nothing there you see and they'd water through a well. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] But then the got the electric and the county water but the Sten the Kirkwall Hotel and the Stromness Hotel and the Stenness Hotel was all connected with the man's own private phone. He had his own private phone. For he quarrelled with the telephone people and he put another wire on the other side of the road to himself.. [speaker001:] Good grief. [Ned:] He didn't th he didn't have a public phone that was a private phone he had. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] I remember the school. [speaker001:] Mm. Heavens. So the Stenness Hotel has been up for a while then. [Ned:] It was up nineteen five I think for tourists or nineteen three somewhere ni Just after the turn of the century. [speaker001:] Heaven sakes. [Ned:] But I think it was built maybe in er in the er nineteen eighty or early eight maybe nineteen ninety five or thereabout but it took a while while they got it erected. And they came from Glasgow. In sections. And they added onto it and made it bigger since. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] But the last the first part of it that was built went on fire not long ago. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And it was rebuilt, that's the only part burnt out. And it built of timber. [speaker001:] Which would be why it was such a terrible blaze, it ripped the roof right off. [Ned:] Yes. Yes it was all timber. [speaker001:] Aye. [Ned:] I remember I remember first war starting. [speaker001:] Oh I see. So did this fella keep visitors right up through the year or was it just the Summer [Ned:] Not in Stenness. [speaker001:] Not in Stenness. [Ned:] But in you see travellers and that came up to Stromness and the Kirkwall Hotel. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And then he used the Stenness Hotel for visitors but there's not you got some. See in them days of the old steam boats and they came from er from Leith and Aberdeen. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] And then they had to walk. No cars you see. I remember people walking. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] pony and gig. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. Would did the local folk get employment there? [Ned:] Oh yeah, that's what I'm saying, there's eight people used to go up I've seen eight people leaving the Stenness Hotel crofters were around go round gillying for for the Stenness Hotel. I've seen eight boat leaving there with sails on them. [speaker001:] I see. [Ned:] When I was going to school. [speaker001:] How big would these boats be? How many folk would they carry? [Ned:] Two folk and the gilly. There was two folk one each end of the boat and the gilly in the middle. They boats were anything from ten to twelve feet. That's the size the boats were boats you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah. [Ned:] That's a making some of them fourteen feet long now. [speaker001:] Mhm. And I suppose er l some of the lasses would have gotten work as [Ned:] Oh they all got work making food you see waitresses. [speaker001:] and whatever Yeah. [Ned:] And chamber maids. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] All the local people you see there's nobody goes to work now there's nobody to work. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] the houses, there's nobody. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] There used to be big families I've seen down at there were six girls there. We'd have plenty of work for them you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. And did did anybody ever hire out like ponies and gigs for this [Ned:] Yes everybody nearly had a pony and gig then. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Now then you see the motor cars came. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] My father had a pony and gig. Every family nearly had it. [speaker001:] Mhm. Right. [Ned:] And my father used to gilly in the Summertime. And my brother and my grandfather used to and my great grandfather they all took helped on the loch you see. [speaker001:] Mm. Did you do that too? [Ned:] Oh yes I did it not long ago. I used to I gillied here. [speaker001:] Mhm. Would that have been a kind of enjoyable job? [Ned:] Well if you were interested. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Ned:] The first pay they got was two the the first I remember people gillying for the Stenness Hotel, their pay was two and six and a gill of whisky. That was the days pay. Two and six. That wasn't much money. [speaker001:] No. No no. Would that be straight from the folk that [Ned:] At [speaker001:] they gillied for? [Ned:] Yes the [speaker001:] or from the chap at the Hotel? [Ned:] No they they were paid from the people that employed them. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And they give them a gill of whisky that was supposed to be for their lunch you see. [speaker001:] For their lunch? [Ned:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ned:] A gill of whisky's not much. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ned:] And it was good whisky they got was too new made you see. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. Mm. [Ned:] Yes. And there were a woman in Stromness at a White Horse there were a garage in Stromness they call the White Hors. Well there were a woman that used to have have that and they called her Maggie and she used to serve drinks there, whisky and that was before Stromness was voted dry you see. After the last war you see it was voted dry. Did you know that? It was voted completely dray and the people who wanted to drink had to go to to Finstown. Well Maggie at this place they called the White Horse and it was two er two pence for a nip. And they used to heap the glasses. And she always gave them good measure and did an awful trade. But then they voted Stromness dry you see. There was no drink in Stromness of any kind. [speaker001:] Was that just after the second war or just afore it? [Ned:] The first war. [speaker001:] Oh the first war. Ah right [Ned:] Right and they didn't get a license back to the second war. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] I remember Stromness dry for I was I used to drive a car then I used to pick up folk and take them to the Pomona and take them back again. But I used to do work for customer down the garage there he used to have two cars to hire and I drove one in my spare time. [speaker001:] Oh right. I see. So was Stromness voted dry after the first war then or afore it? After. [Ned:] After the first war I think it was. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Ned:] And there was a big distillery in Stromness you see. [speaker001:] Ah. [Ned:] I can't remember the people that'd be in records, there used to be a distillery there. [speaker001:] I've heard of that right enough. Cos there [Ned:] Yeah. [speaker001:] was a bottle of of whisky from that distillery went for a huge p price at one of the big [Ned:] Yeah. [speaker001:] auctions South. [Ned:] Aye. I and I can't mind forgotten. I can't minded there. [speaker001:] Mhm. Right. I see. [Ned:] The man was heard of him. I don't know he's the same s in South Ronaldsay or not would he be different s? [speaker001:] No idea. [Ned:] Would it be the same a draper in South Ronaldsay is it not. Used to be. [speaker001:] That's right. Yes that's right. [Ned:] Are they there yet? [speaker001:] No. Er well not the same folk. [Ned:] Oh different ones. [speaker001:] The shop's still there, [Ned:] Yeah. [speaker001:] it's kind of it's it's calls itself the Treasure Chest now. [Ned:] Well that man bought the distillery in Stromness and broke it up and sold the timber out of it. Grand timber in it you see. [speaker001:] Aye. [Ned:] It was a big place. [speaker001:] Mhm. I see. [Ned:] And I can't remember what they called the whisky. They shipped it South you see. [speaker001:] Shame though you know. [Ned:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. Stromness must have had a big temperance movement then. [Ned:] Yes. And the herring fishing in Stromness they used to walk with the boats right across the pier. They would walk over the boats, the herring boats, herring fishing. And then it stopped and they went to Stronsay then. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] But Stronsay fishing from the herring fishing. You've seen old photos of that. [speaker001:] Yes. Mm. Quite amazing the number of peedie boats just available. [Ned:] I'll show you a photo here in the water right up at the c the cathedral. You ever seen it? [speaker001:] No. [Ned:] I'll show you a photo of that. [speaker001:] Oh brilliant. Is that just with a high flood? [Ned:] No there was no houses there. [speaker001:] Oh I see. Oh right. [Ned:] Back road wasn't there. [speaker001:] Ah right. Oh yes I'd like to see that. That'd be great. [Ned:] . See folk well maybe bairns plying in boats right up to the cathedral. [speaker001:] You'll not mind it like that though do you? [Ned:] No but I mind it Well the power station, I mind it no road there. Great Western road. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] I mind no road there. For I worked at the council they were trying to make a road there then. dumping rubbish in that end you ken driving the council lorries. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] They built the council garage with built for the when Scott came here. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] And he built a new house at and they call it Scott's House yet. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And they call the road Scott's Road. Is that finished? [speaker001:] No it's a wee while to go yet. [Ned:] They call it Scott's Road you see. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] He's a marvellous man, he came to Orkney to improve the Orkney roads. That's about him and Peter, they're two men who could do it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] They understood what they were doing. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mm. Well there must have been a lot of roads. You know that they did improve [Ned:] Well they made an awful lot of new roads since you see. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] Well if it was a narrow road then they made it twice as wide. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] I mean you could hardly pass two buses on it then. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And the road here was just grassy road grass road in the middle of it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Now it's a having buses on it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] Since the war Orkney's changed terrible. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mm. Yes the amount of machinery and changes in farming and everything it's all just [Ned:] Yeah. [speaker001:] all the all over really. Mm. Mm. What about going right back again, what was what relation of i of yours was the the had something to do with breeding horses is that right? [Ned:] My gran my father [speaker001:] Ah. [Ned:] start the what they call they what did you say the name of it again? [speaker001:] Horse breeding [Ned:] Central Horse Breeding Society. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Ned:] And then when he gave it up when his wife died, he stopped it then and they changed it into the West Mainland Horse Breeding Society. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Ned:] And they used to wh Why they used to work this breeding you see, they used to ad well some people in the South stallions they wanted to travel to Orkney to make money and advertise them. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And they used to call a meeting and this horse breeding society would have called a meeting you know the ones that looked after choosing the horse they were gonna select for this certain season you see. They started in April and they travelled on till July. [speaker001:] Oh. And was it his job to take the stallion round [Ned:] Well the man travelled round the man travelled round with a pony, riding a pony and the stallion walking alongside you see. And er they like I told you before they used a whole a crafty in Kirkwall. That's where the Phoenix is standing right now there was great big piece there and they held a crafty there in the very first early in April. And all the people that had stallions South been left in Orkney all Winter somebody had kept them. They all paraded in there. On a certain day. And I used to get in when I was a young boy and see them when I started working on a farm I always to see them. It was awful interesting to see bonny horse. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Ned:] And then you see they when the crafty was by they used to set out the next day, some maybe taken for the West Mainland and some taken for and some were. And they went round on their rounds and they called along every eleven days. [speaker001:] Why every eleven days? [Ned:] Well that's when your when your mare came in season. [speaker001:] Ah. [Ned:] And then when you put her in foal, served her with a stallion. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] When they served her with a stallion you see, it was three weeks elapsed then before she if you didn't go and foal with that service it was three weeks elapsed afore you game again. But if she took the stallion at the end of that three weeks, he came back in another eleven days in case er she wasn't settled you see. [speaker001:] I see. Mm. And is that when they would say that you know, they had so many good foals the year before or [Ned:] Well you see then er say a man owned two stallions here, and he'd two grooms travelling. Well er they they took so much money when the end of that when they stopped travelling the horse when they was finished the season, they went round all the farms and collected what they call the fairways money. Which maybe be two pound for every mare. Or three pound. At the end when the mare proved in foal, you'd pay another three or maybe four pound. Well they went round then the spring and collected all that from the farmers but the men that travelled the stallion went to the house first to see the mare was in foal. For some farmers would say their mare wasn't in foal you see. And the grooms went round to make sure she was in foal before he took the money. And they would collected maybe maybe a hundred and fifty pound for the season for travelling round. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mm. And was that their main wage was that how they got paid? [Ned:] Well that's that's that's groom what they call the groom, then he had another job he did in the Winter, he out in the council with the roads or any kind of job like that. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] But he usually travelled the stallion for three month. [speaker001:] Mm. [Ned:] Well they started in April. April, May, June and July you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ned:] And some travelled the horse walking it, but some rode a pony. But in later years they got a gig and it was far easier on the pony you see with a big heavy man riding a pony is awful tiresome on the pony you see. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. And would [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Okay. recording is that? Now if you jut want to say your name or something, just to check check that's re it's recording. If you just give me your name or say hello or something. [Davie:] Dave. [speaker001:] No say say it towards the [LAUGHTER]. [Davie:] Oh Dave. [speaker001:] Er do you want to say it now? [Davie:] David. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Walter. [speaker001:] Okay right that's not bad. That's just [Davie:] Is that working? [speaker001:] That's working fine. Okay, well we'll just we'll just start then. I mean [Davie:] Mhm. [speaker001:] don't be frightened to speak loud. [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] No no [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] See the clearer you speak the clearer it'll be on here. [Davie:] [LAUGHTER] Ah yes. [speaker001:] Okay. [Davie:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So then and er is that a bit uncomfy [Davie:] No it's fine. [speaker001:] for your there? [Davie:] It's fine it's fine. [speaker001:] Is that is that okay? [Davie:] Fine. [speaker001:] But Okay then So I'm here speaking to Walter and David and you've both worked at Lyness during the second war. No the first [Walter:] No the second war. [Davie:] No no. [speaker001:] It's both it's the second. Right you are. Well I was just actually gonna ask you about about what you did afore it. How you got into this work. So I'll start with you Walter. [Walter:] Well [LAUGHTER] when I left school I stayed in the island of Hoy to Lyness. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And er my first job I had at Lyness was working for William on the tanks outside, tarmacadam under the tanks. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And then when I finished there, came and I was employ employed number one by them. [speaker001:] So your first job was was working with the tarmacadam. [Walter:] Yeah, with William. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Doing it under the tanks. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And then when that job finished I started with. And they were the firm that were make a tunnel up the hill. But first they had to look for a camp site so Mr was the chief engineer I was employed by him, to have a look round and we discovered Lyness farm to be a suitable place. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] So they decided to build the camp there. They bought the farm from the late William Wards and built the camp there. [speaker001:] And would that be the first camp buildings on Hoy or [Walter:] Oh no there was more camps afore that. There would have been Sir William before that. [speaker001:] Mhm. And er so what er what er sort of era was when about was this still right at the beginning of the war when you were doing this or [Walter:] That would have been I would say maybe August nineteen thirty eight. [speaker001:] Nineteen thirty eight. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Cos I was reading in Hugh 's book that the very first sort of work was in surveys done in thirty seven. [Walter:] That's right and testing the heathers for the tunnel. [Davie:] Mhm. [Walter:] They did drill holes up the hill. [Davie:] Mhm. [Walter:] But before that was working there on the tanks digging out the tank farms. And their amp was the Fleet Canteen. [speaker001:] I see. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And while while the while they were testing, did they employ any of the local folk for this? [Walter:] I think there was somebody employed dragging the stuff up the hill. I don't know how many how many were employed. There wasn't many men there was just a company come up and test bored in the hill. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mm. [speaker001:] And was this testing for possible underground fuel tanks? [Walter:] That's what it was testing for. Yeah. [speaker001:] And did you know that on Hoy? [Walter:] No Well [speaker001:] Were you to told that this is what they were planning? [Walter:] Nobody knew they they they said it was something to do with tanks but nobody knew [Davie:] Rumours. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] That would kind of be kept a bit quiet was it? The [Walter:] Well not in that base no, but [speaker001:] Not in that base, no. [Walter:] there were quite a bit Lyness, because I remember once the Hoy Head coming down from Stromness with a lot of party makers aboard it and cameras out and afore they knew where they were the admiralty men was there whipping the films out of the cameras. [speaker001:] Is that right? [Walter:] [LAUGHTER] Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm and this was just an innocent party [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] party [LAUGHTER] Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] So they they do they test for the for the hill would be the first thing. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What can you mind what was the first sort of action on Hoy that impressed you cos Well you'd been there all your life you would have really seen the whole process happening. [Walter:] Well the first would have been the building of the tanks, the outside tanks. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] When came to dig out the foundations and like the buildings round the tanks. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] That was the first. [speaker001:] Mhm. And did you go straight to school? From school to doing that? [Walter:] No I was working various small jobs before that. [speaker001:] Mhm that on Hoy? [Walter:] On Hoy yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. So did they just have you on right away? [Walter:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] Full time? [Walter:] There was no trouble to get work then. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] There was no shortage of work. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] And and what about you Davie? You wouldn't have [Davie:] Well I started on farm work. [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] I started on farm work and then er we left that and we started with the County Council. On the [speaker001:] Yeah. [Davie:] roads and quarries and [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] one thing and another. And then we decided that me and me brother would go chance our hand at Lyness. [speaker001:] Ah. [Davie:] So the camps was up then of course when we came down. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. What [Davie:] So. [speaker001:] time would that be about that you started [Davie:] I think about the same time as Walter for the war was declared when we were down there on the third of September. [Walter:] Aye you'd have been there in thirty nine.... [Davie:] No the war was declared in thirty eight. [Walter:] Aye well that was the that was [speaker001:] thirty nine. [Davie:] Thirty nine was it? [Walter:] That was the crisis thirty eight. [Davie:] Ah. Ah it was thirty nine. [Walter:] Yeah that's the crisis. Yeah. [Davie:] Ah yes. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] So I mind war was declared then. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Davie:] Frightened the life out of us altogether. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And where are you from yourself? Are you from the mainland? [Davie:] Yes just here I belong I belong here. [speaker001:] Oh I see Mhm. Right. So it wouldn't be too big a step just to go to Lyness really it was kind of a natural thing? [Davie:] No no just just caught the boat at Stromness and old Hoy Head and down there and Took a bit One and six it cost on the ferry [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mm. And and why did you go there? It was [Davie:] Well for better money that's Better prospects, that's why [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] we went there. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Erm [speaker001:] Yes that really would be where the employment was. [Davie:] Yes yeah. We were working with the council at ten pence and hour so we thought we were going to improve on that a wee bit. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right I'll stick it atween you again now. Er... Now and I'll sit in front of you listening. [Davie:] Would you like a table to sit? [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. I'm dead right with this [Davie:] Ah. [speaker001:] . Okay.. [clears throat] So what would your first job be then when you actually [Davie:] Working in the quarries er loading the lorries with a hand shovel. [speaker001:] Hand shovel. [Davie:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is that all the equipment they gave you? [Davie:] That's that's all we got. And they was high sided lorries it was a quite a a throw up. [speaker001:] Jesus. [Davie:] And old boss old West, Do you mind old West? [Walter:] Tom West and John West. [Davie:] Aye. [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] He always said, Chuck it well over, chuck it well over. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] All blooming right for him when he was six feet in the air. [Walter:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is this the lorries? [Davie:] So Yes that's the Burn Transit lorries that were loaded. [Walter:] They were Dodge lorries. [Davie:] Aye Dodge. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And were they did you see them coming up? Were they transported specially up? [Davie:] Well Yes from London. It was a London firm. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] But they all didn't come at one time, they were always had new ones coming again. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. And and was i how did you work it, was it like a certain amount of men per lorry or did they just come in convoy? [Davie:] Ah well they d Well as you see it's three or four lorries there so many men at each lorry. [Walter:] Mhm. Yes. [speaker001:] Mhm. And was it continual like, as soon as one lorry drove away did you get an empty in? [Davie:] Oh the the lorries were standing waiting for you. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] Worse luck. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] About how can you mind how many of you there would have been? Roughly? [Davie:] Er in the camp? Well [speaker001:] Working in the quarry. [Davie:] Oh my goodness. [Walter:] Be twenty would there? [Davie:] Aye it'd been about twenty or thirty. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Twenty or thirty. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. And and where where would you have stayed? [Davie:] In the camp. It was all camp. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. And that was was that was the camp just right on the Lyness Fell. [Walter:] The Lyness Fell right on the point yeah. [Davie:] Aye right down to the shore there. [Walter:] Yeah the shore. [Davie:] In the middle of a turnip field. there was turnips underneath. [Walter:] They were building the camp on the top of the tatties and crop and turnips. [Davie:] It was turnips underneath the huts. [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] And er put the huts up. Of Paisley. [speaker001:] Is that right? [Walter:] They employed a lot of local labour of course too. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] They had a lot of joiners up from Paisley and they employed a lot of local labour as well. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Mhm. [speaker001:] But despite that it wasn't the first camp up. There was camps up for the tank workers [Walter:] No er they had tanks up for their men yeah. They had huts up for their men. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Davie:] And did not? [Walter:] they had the Fleet Canteen. [Davie:] Ah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] They had the whole Fleet Canteen,. They maybe had a a few huts for their bosses or huts round it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] But they used the Fleet Canteen which was there in the first war. [speaker001:] And it was right near the pier was it? [Walter:] In the centre of the tanks. [speaker001:] In the centre [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] Mhm. [speaker001:] of the tanks. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] And then later of course you'd get all the the rest of the camps. Was this was still fairly [Walter:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] early on in what nineteen thirty eight, thirty nine? [Walter:] Thirty eight thirty nine yeah. [Davie:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. And then it would er at that time you would just have the tank workers and the quarry workers. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is that right. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] And the ones up the hill. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Digging the road up to Wee Fea. [speaker001:] Ah right. [Walter:] And trying to get the light poles up. There's a London firm did the light poles,. [Davie:] That's right [Walter:] From London, they did the poles up from the Lyness up to the hill. [Davie:] Mm. [Walter:] For the lights. And right over the hill from North to South. Yeah. [speaker001:] Was that lighting inside? [Walter:] Lighting inside yeah. [speaker001:] Ah. [Walter:] But the lights to keep power [Davie:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So you changed jobs then really did you both you both kind of started out in the quarries [Davie:] Yes as labour for [Walter:] Oh no. I actually started with eng civil engineer, going round looking for the camp site and then we did tramp the hills. [speaker001:] Ah right. [Walter:] And lay off were the tunnel was going to go and the road up to the hill and lay off the power station and [Davie:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] All that on the hill and then go down to the and measure from there to the top of the hill to see how much pipe for the [Davie:] Aye. [Walter:] for the to pump water to the hill. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker001:] So how many folk would you be working with? [Walter:] It was just two of us along with the surveyor. [speaker001:] That would be kind of the cushy job [LAUGHTER] [] [Davie:] Yes. [Walter:] carrying that theodolite and labelling [Davie:] I mind [Walter:] Yeah [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mm that would that would still be seen as likely a better job that [LAUGHTER] [] [Davie:] Oh yeah [Walter:] Yeah yeah [Davie:] It certainly was. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [Davie:] But I got promoted to the road roller and then into the power station so [Walter:] Mm. Mm. Mhm. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm you you [Davie:] It was a different outfit altogether. [Walter:] Then I left the surveying surveyor civil engineering I went in the black gang. Along with the fitters at the tunnel, looking after the locos and slushers in the tunnel and all the rest of the [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Mm. [Walter:] tunnel gear. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Can you mind roughly h how long it would have taken you to get the rough survey. How long was that done? [Walter:] Oh there was weeks of it. [speaker001:] Weeks of it? [Walter:] Weeks of it because the after the put in all his markings the admiralty came and checked the whole thing then. To see if it was right [Davie:] Mhm. [Walter:] before they was allowed to go ahead. [speaker001:] Mm. [Walter:] And e every week the admiralty had a clerk of works going round watching the progress. And er they had a surveyor gang checking all the lines in the tunnel that the surveyors put up to keep the men driving the right tunnel it shouldn't go p one past the other. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] They were working with both ends. [Walter:] Both ends you see. They were working from both ends. [Davie:] They had so many men they had to start at the other end and [Walter:] Aye [Davie:] to the other side so as they [Walter:] Met in the middle. And [Davie:] And they did meet. [Walter:] Did meet yeah. And then they [Davie:] Just a few inches. [Walter:] And then they had the adits coming down from the top. The two adits coming down as well the [speaker001:] What's adits? [Walter:] Well they were tunnels too. [Davie:] It's just a vent-hole really for [Walter:] And they they they chaps down to the pumps. The pumps was at the bottom of the adit. The pumping for the tunnel. [speaker001:] Mm. [Davie:] pumping they'd a pump away along used to pump it along [Walter:] Aye but they had two at the bottom. One in each down at the bottom yeah. [Davie:] Oh it could've been. Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And and they pumped in there. [Davie:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Right. [Davie:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So you would wait till did did you ken what you were doing, did they explain it to you? [Walter:] The surveyors? [speaker001:] What was happening. Aha. [Walter:] Oh yes they told us it was to be underground oil storage. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] They had three surveyors there. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And they finished. And they had an, an assistant, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] A chief engineer, Edward. And [Davie:] Aye they had plenty of bosses. [Walter:] , [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] he was a local, he was the engineer up the hill. [speaker001:] Mm. [Davie:] At that was boss [Walter:] Aye Magnus, yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] mhm. [speaker001:] Ah right. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Oh well I'm going back in time to catch up with [LAUGHTER] your side []. Wh did the when you were erm still shovelling, did they ever provide you with better equipment? Than just your shovels? [Davie:] No you just had your shovel. it going. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh I see [LAUGHTER]. And was it all. [Davie:] down at the survey I wasn't very long there, I was only about [speaker001:] Mm [Walter:] Mm Mhm. [Davie:] three or four weeks. [Walter:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] On that kind of work and then [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [Davie:] then I was on this roller and then we got er started up at the power station with the [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] with the engines. [speaker001:] mhm. And your your roller, that would all be shipped from down South as well was it? [Davie:] Well it was there when I came I don't know where it Yes. Mm. [Walter:] Yes. It come up on the boats. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] All the machinery come up from wherever the headquarters was. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mm. [speaker001:] And could you drive already or did they [Davie:] Oh land rollers is no bother to drive [speaker001:] No [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] Just one lever. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] Forward and start. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] And the biggest job was keeping the water in the boiler and keeping the You had to get steam. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Oh of course. [Walter:] Mhm yeah yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Steam roller. [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Aha. Right. Yeah. And and to get the stones, you would be working with just explosives? To start [Davie:] Aye you you'd be blast it down It was drilled and blasted. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Yeah. And then the road roller. So once you were road rolling, was you still on that job when you started to make the road up to up Wee Fea? [Davie:] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. That would be another major operation. [Davie:] It it certainly was. [speaker001:] Getting a road up that [Walter:] A lot of it was done by hand. [Davie:] It would have been mostly done by hand. [Walter:] There were some bits the digger was in, but mostly by hand. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Yeah. And then it was all with stones and [Davie:] Aha. [Walter:] and pitched and tarred. It's still standing good yet. [Davie:] But all the machinery was put up before the road was [Walter:] Yes. [speaker001:] Afore the road? [Walter:] Yes yes. [Davie:] Afore the road, yes they just towed through the mud and [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Was that because they were so desperate for it? [Walter:] Yeah [Davie:] Yes they had to get lights for for working. [Walter:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. And I suppose that would have been this [Davie:] Aye that's the [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] the Blackstone. Six cylinder er four er six cylinder Blackstone. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And and what were they? Just g g generators? No? [Davie:] They they drove generators? [speaker001:] They drove generators. [Davie:] Aye That's [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. [Davie:] fixed down on a concrete bed and then your generator goes on the end on [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Coupled. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Its flywheel and all this are going after it's. [speaker001:] what would you call one of them then? [Davie:] A six cylinder Blackstone. [speaker001:] Ah right. Never heard of one of those. [Davie:] That's what it is. Mhm. [speaker001:] Oh. So would you mind describing how you got it up there again cos I thought it was quite a good story. [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] Well they set off they towed it up and then they had at least six six of them Burn Transit lorries all towing it up. [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] And er our road roller was pulling too. And we got half up and stuck. [LAUGHTER] And then er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] they put a pulley away up the hill. That was kind of a massive pulley in concrete. And then put the ropes round the pulley and pulled down the hill instead of pulling up. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Right. [Davie:] So we got it up that way. [speaker001:] Mhm. That's quite clever, use gravity to help you along. [Davie:] Er yeah. Yes downhill. [speaker001:] And [Davie:] See the roller smooth tyres wheels that could pull nothing up there. [Walter:] No. [Davie:] But with its own weight going down you could er Oh we got it up. [speaker001:] You would need steep rope for your pulleys? [Davie:] Oh yes. Oh yes. [speaker001:] Aha. Can you imagine down a hill in road [LAUGHTER] roller []. [Davie:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] It's just a nightmare. Yeah. So there was there was no accidents caused by all that going up? [Davie:] No it all went [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [Davie:] sticking here and there but er [speaker001:] Aha. [Davie:] we got it there. [speaker001:] Mhm. And then once she was up, you did you have your power station already built? [Davie:] No oh well the floor was there. It was what the I think [speaker001:] What was the station? [Walter:] That's part of the station. [speaker001:] Is that? [Davie:] That is. That's the station. [Walter:] Yeah. It's a it was a [speaker001:] Oh right. [Walter:] corrugated iron building. [Davie:] It's corrugated iron building, that's the station. [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh right. Of of course it's just quite a peedie building isn't it. It's not a great big. [Walter:] Oh it's not [Davie:] No no. It's not very [Walter:] No. [Davie:] not very big but my there was some noise inside there [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] When that big er belt [Walter:] Yeah Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] er and what was actually inside it then? [Davie:] Well there was nothing in it but the engines and and the [Walter:] And [Davie:] generators. [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] And compressors. [speaker001:] And and how many engines would there be? [Davie:] Er [Walter:] Five was it? [Davie:] It was er three, two hundred and forty horse Blackstones, [Walter:] Yeah. One small one. [Davie:] On hundred and forty horse. [Walter:] Ah and a Crossley. [Davie:] And a Crossley was three hundred and fifty, it was the biggest one of the lot. [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. [Davie:] There'd gave been five five engines [Walter:] Five engines yes. [speaker001:] And how many generators would that run? [Walter:] Five generators [Davie:] All the all the generators. [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] Five. [Walter:] So you had to have an engine for each generator? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. And then that was all erm giving light to the tunnel? [Davie:] Light and power yes. [Walter:] In fact, Lyness got light off it to begin with. [Davie:] Aye. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] Because they had no power station at Lyness. [speaker001:] Of course [Walter:] Un until the admiralty put in two stations later on. A and B station. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Aye. [Walter:] mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] It was the Blackstones [speaker001:] Mhm. Ah right. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] your compressors, was that for air? Were [Davie:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you feeding air [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] into the tunnel? [Walter:] For the drilling. [Davie:] Aye the [speaker001:] Ah. [Walter:] And for the mechanical shovels, the slushers. [Davie:] Aye it was all compressed air. [Walter:] Compressed air. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Ah right. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] What about the folk working in the tunnel, would they need air at all? [Walter:] Yeah. No no there was plenty of fresh air. [speaker001:] Plenty of fresh air. [Davie:] Ah but they had a vent-line [Walter:] They they had they had round to suck out the [Davie:] A big [Walter:] the gelignite fumes and the diesel fumes yeah. [Davie:] It was a fan blowing it out. [Walter:] Flan blowing it out yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [Davie:] And if you went past the end of it with your hat on and you're whoof [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] You'd a bald head. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] The fans are still in it yet, for the [Davie:] Oh. [Walter:] for the admiralty the fans in it yet but they're [speaker001:] Oh right. [Walter:] not wired up of course. [speaker001:] Aha. Aha. [Walter:] no lights. [speaker001:] And what was your day to day job then? In in [Davie:] Oh well worked in shifts. Three shifts right round the clock. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Seven to three and three to eleven and eleven to seven. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] One week about. [speaker001:] Ah right. [Walter:] And you were supposed to work half past seven to half past five. [Davie:] Mm. [Walter:] But there was no limit to working time, four to ten at night if they wanted you. [Davie:] Mm. [speaker001:] Ah right. [Walter:] There was no hours worried about. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Work on work on. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] Aye. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And once your surveying was done, did they actually put you inside the tunnel? [Walter:] Oh you the whole time with the surveyors. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Walter:] Because you had to put in the level plugs for them to keep the level and the centre lines to keep the centre. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Every day you were in with the [speaker001:] Of course you would survey the outside [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And then you would just need to be b used to build the whole of the inside then. [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. They surveyed the whole hill, right over the top. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And then er decided where the entrance was to go in. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And then er kept the centre line then. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So d you had a North South [Walter:] Aye North South, yeah yeah. [speaker001:] East West? [Walter:] No. [Davie:] No No. Just right through. [speaker001:] No just North South. [Walter:] Right through. [Davie:] Right through. [Walter:] That was right through and then once they got it right through, they cut the big chamber then. They drove a ten by eight tunnel on that side. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] To the right and a ten by eight to the left and then they went up a grade and they drove up same on both. Till they got a good piece through. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And then they came back and they drove shafts down to the bottom. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] And once they got that down th cut the arches then, the wide arch. And they 'creted then As they took the big piece out, they kept pumping concrete and shifting then pumping again. So as the roof was all secure before they blasted the centre out. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] And it was on rails that [Walter:] On rails Yeah. Mhm. [Davie:] And then pumped the concrete in at the back. [Walter:] Section at a time. And once they got that section all set, they started to cut the next in. And then they shift again. Pump that one in and kept moving on. [speaker001:] Mm. [Walter:] They got the roof secure, cos it was a wide [Davie:] Mhm. [Walter:] hole then. [Davie:] It was a massive job. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. And then they blasted the centre out. [Davie:] Mhm. [Walter:] The side and the b floor put in then. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And was it off this one central chamber that you took the tank chambers round? [Davie:] Yeah off the first one, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Davie:] and then you drove another tunnel out to the right [speaker001:] Right. [Davie:] and you so far out and then you drove another one in to the next chamber. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Davie:] Same again to the next until you got your six chambers. [speaker001:] I see. [Davie:] And then they drove another tunnel out, an access tunnel which [speaker001:] mhm. [Davie:] Once they were concreting the pipe tunnel as they called it. [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] They used that to take all the muck out then. [speaker001:] Ah I see. [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] And how were your six chambers arranged? Was it in a circle like that? a central one No. Aha. [Walter:] No. No no. One l one like that and then the entrance into it. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] The next in like that. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] And the next and the next just the same. [speaker001:] Ah I see. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] And the same off this side then? [Walter:] No. [speaker001:] No? Just all the one. [Walter:] Just this one. [Davie:] Mhm. [Walter:] Six on the one side. [speaker001:] Ah I see. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] So you would like come in to the main entrance and then [Walter:] Come into [speaker001:] you'd have all the tanks right [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to one side and then your exit. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Ah. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] I see. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] like I imagined it at all. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] And where did the expertise for this job come from? They would all be folk engineers for South [Walter:] Engineers for South yeah. [speaker001:] Aha. And was that 's job? [Walter:] 's job yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Davie:] Mhm. Mhm. Course checked the whole time by the admiralty. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] They were there checking the whole time. [speaker001:] mhm. [Walter:] See that nothing was [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] faulty or out of place. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Condemning if it was wrong. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Were they pretty careful then? [Walter:] Oh they were. Yes. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] They watched everything closely. [speaker001:] And what about your your workmates? Were there any other local fellas on it or [Walter:] Oh yes, a lot of local fellas [Davie:] Oh yes, yeah. Everyone who was spare was [Walter:] Everybody as they left their school got a job doing something. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] They worked in the kitchen or or huts [Davie:] Yeah. Working in the huts. [Walter:] or running in the running to the [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mm. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. And you see a great lot of the people stayed locally Well they had their wives up. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Yeah and they stayed in local houses. [Davie:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And of course had their own camp and their own agent's bungalow Lyness, down on the point. Where the Gord Gordon stayed and [Davie:] Aye. [Walter:] Ian and Jimmy and Bert and er Tom and all that ones. Tom and and John John John both of then stayed there. [Davie:] All the gentry was down there. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] And if it if it came an air raid you started scurrying to the hill to get in the tunnel. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] [LAUGHTER] The air raid shelter. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Er [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And then of course erm would it be later that they took up the English miners? [Walter:] No they came up pretty soon in it, when they were digging the road but [Davie:] Yeah. Yeah. [Walter:] they didn't think too much of the weather like this. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] No. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] mhm. [speaker001:] Is that right. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] D Ho roughly how many came up [Walter:] Fifty or sixty I think. [Davie:] Aye it was about sixty. [speaker001:] About sixty. [Walter:] Sixty in the first lot. Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] But then men came from all over. They came form and and Aberdeen and [speaker001:] Mm. [Walter:] Inverness and [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Shetland and all through the North Isles of Orkney, everywhere. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] They flocked in. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] And Spitzbergen. [Walter:] Spitzbergen. I was not there when they [speaker001:] The Norwegian lands? [Davie:] Yeah. Yeah. [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. [Davie:] Grand workers they were. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] Great big tall men. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Walter:] mhm. [speaker001:] Did you have special clothing? did you [Walter:] No we got we got an oilskin coat and a pair of rubber boots. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] For to to protect you in the tunnel they said you wear a helmet, but nobody hardly ever wore it. For [speaker001:] Is that right? [Walter:] on your head. [Davie:] Aye. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And folk weren't keen on wearing them? [Walter:] No they hardly e there were maybe some did but very few. [speaker001:] Ah right. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And did you get any masks for the fumes? [Walter:] Oh no no no. [speaker001:] No? What about you Davie were you in [Davie:] I was never I didn't work in [speaker001:] What about working in the power station, did you have any Did you get ear muffs for the noise. [Davie:] No. Didn't have them but we should have had. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] But what a noise was in there. [speaker001:] Mm. But you didn't get them. [Davie:] No. [Walter:] No. [speaker001:] No. [Walter:] No. [Davie:] I had a wee office but it was kind [Walter:] Yes. [Davie:] of sealed that you could go in and have a cup of tea in. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Ah. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. So was your main work in the power station, checking everything was running alright? Checking [Davie:] Aye, just looking after engines. [speaker001:] Aha. Aha. Mhm. And d had they shown you like were you sort of trained if anything did go wrong, you would have fixed it yourselves? Aha. [Davie:] Oh yes, most of the things we'd have done the work ourself. We did all the engine repairs. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Er we dismantled one of the six cylinder engines, we did it in a shift. Me and Tommy. [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] We [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] removed the pistons and [speaker001:] Mm. [Davie:] new liners and that in the eight hours we were on shift. It took a bit of doing.. [speaker001:] Yes, that's going [Davie:] And the blooming heat and the [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] noise in there. We never spoke we just worked with signals. [speaker001:] Ah. [Davie:] You know our our putting up the pistons more or less a which is we had a big of er Tommy would know what I meant and I would know what he meant. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yes you would need some form of communication like that cos shouting would just be useless [Davie:] Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. No. [speaker001:] . So it would pretty well train you up as engineers by the t by the time you'd done that then? [Davie:] Oh yes oh yes certainly knew you had to know what you were doing with it you know. [speaker001:] Did you have any kind of basic training afore it like? Did they take you for a week and show you [Davie:] Not really well we the Blackstone engineer fitting up engines, he stayed with us for a while to show us the ropes like you know. [speaker001:] Aha. [Davie:] But after that you just had to do it yourselves. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Ah right. Mhm. And [Davie:] And air raids, I mind the air raid [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] We'd we'd to clear out. You couldn't work with the lights you see [Walter:] No. Shut the lights down. [Davie:] You used to switch off the lights and run. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Oh really. [Davie:] Right along the hill. [Walter:] Mhm. [Davie:] And you'd hear the tracer bullets rattling about the tin sheds. [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] They had a they had a air raid shelter below the power station later on. [Davie:] Aye after. [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Oh. [Davie:] But er when you were after the power station so when clean away from the station altogether. [speaker001:] Did you never enter the tunnel like you were [Walter:] Well they were in the tunnel anyway. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Davie:] Ah we were too far away. [speaker001:] You were too far away. [Walter:] We didn't go in always, we used to If we were on the top of the hill we used to watch from the top. [Davie:] Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] I think one time there were some folk up from Lyness they cleared out and they were in the tunnel and of course they blasted. And somebody says, Oh they've dropped a bomb on the tunnel. [Davie:] [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] It was the blasting in the tunnel. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] Aye quite safe in the tunnel. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yes. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You would be in the dark though were you if you shut the power down. [Walter:] No the li the lights was on in the tunnel. [Davie:] Oh yes. [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] Oh yes you could leave the lights in the tunnel but they could see the lights that were, any light about the station, they could [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] see that. [speaker001:] Ah I see what you mean. [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Were very particular about lights they I think it was about a hundred feet in the entrance that there were [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] there was no lights at night. So as the light wouldn't have reflected through the entrance. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. And then they had a tip outside where the lorries backed into [speaker001:] Mm. [Walter:] to pick up the s the er muck out of the tunnel. They had a very small very faint light and they had a blue light. [Davie:] Aye. [Walter:] A very light man tipping the skips into the bins could see what he was doing. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] And the three lorries could back underneath and load and go down and tip at the Golden Wharf at Lyness. [speaker001:] Ah right. Oh yes I'd forgotten to ask you about that. Yes [LAUGHTER] [Walter:] Mhm. Mhm [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That was the. And [Walter:] And of course a lot of the muck was tipped on the hill, you can see the marks of it yet. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Where the rail track runs from the North town to the South town or you could go go by rail from the one side of the hill to the other. Inside or outside [Davie:] Aye. [Walter:] Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Yeah that must have been quite something to see [LAUGHTER] something chugging round Hoy [] [LAUGHTER] [Davie:] Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Think what you would think of it nowadays. It's just crazy. Mhm. Aye I must ask you once you once you had your sort of main tunnels built and your light and then you would start concentrating on your chambers? [Walter:] The chambers yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Davie:] Mm. [speaker001:] Now h wh what did it look like inside one of these chambers? [Walter:] Well the [speaker001:] Once it was or while you were building it and once it was up. [Walter:] When we were working on it it was just a load of excavations. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] And you could see all the tunnels going in below. And the tunnels at the top and the shafts down to the top. [speaker001:] mhm. [Walter:] To get ready for putting the arches in. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] It was only when you blasted the centre out that you actually [Davie:] Yeah. Yeah. [Walter:] saw the big [Davie:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] cavity then when the roof was secure. [speaker001:] Mhm. Did you did you go up right through the hill at all to get light? Never you would stay a good bit underneath [Walter:] No no. No there'd be there'd be about It must be two hundred feet above. [Davie:] Oh yes. Oh yes. [speaker001:] Aye. [Walter:] So we'd be half up the hill I would think. [speaker001:] Aye. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So when you came to blast the the centre out, was there like a special warning to everybody [Walter:] Oh there was [speaker001:] who was working in the hill to [Walter:] The No oh no they the you just moved back [Davie:] N Aye, shifted back [Walter:] Shifted back out of the blast and you got boom boom. That's all you got. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Walter:] You you'd think there was somebody knocking on your ears. [Davie:] Yeah. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is that all is sounded like? [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] Aye, it wasn't a big charge it was [Walter:] No. [Davie:] just breaking up the pieces of stone. [Walter:] Yeah. yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] You n you were never concerned that the whole lot might [LAUGHTER] come in or something []? [Davie:] No. No. [speaker001:] You wouldn't be with your concrete [Walter:] No. [break in recording] It was just if it was a clay seam like number five chamber, were the full of clay. [speaker001:] Mm. [Walter:] And they made it shorter for that reason. [speaker001:] Right. [Walter:] But most of the hill was quite safe. [speaker001:] Aha. [Walter:] Er but er [Davie:] Lots of slates falling down on [Walter:] Yeah. [Davie:] the top of your locomotives [Walter:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Ah. [Davie:] Coming out. [Walter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Be terrible dark would it not be? [Walter:] No it wasn't dark at all. [Davie:] Mm. [speaker001:] No? [Walter:] No. You got water running in places but not badly, in the wintertime it wasn't too bad. [speaker001:] Mhm. and you said there was actually this the two Irish fellas that got killed in the tunnel? [Walter:] Yes they [speaker001:] What h [Davie:] boys. [speaker001:] What happened to them? [Davie:] It was a roof fall. [Walter:] Mm. [speaker001:] Ah. [Davie:] After the blasting. [Walter:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Ah. [recording ends]

[Agnes:] What what was the story about the witch again?... [David:] Well... she l... she lived I think... up on the hill above here. Millfield land somewhere. And she was supposed to be... a witch right enough and the men... from all round about here... er had a... meeting about it and... they... I think met at the... barn of Dale. [Agnes:] Where was that?... [David:] Dale's the farm... just over the hill. And they all had their flails with them. So they went to the Kildingy Well which was s supposed to have some kind of magical properties you see and er I don't ken if it was a a holy well or exactly but it certainly was reputed to have... some kind of properties that could cure supposed to cure any disease save the black death. So they went to the Kildingy Well and dipped their flails in the water. To sanctify the whole operation. And then they and took this poor old wife and they beat her to death with the flails. And er they couldn't bury her in the in the Kirkyard.... You see in consecrated ground so they buried her in this bit of wheat land at the Muckle Water there. The Millfield Gupps. So they say. And she was reported to have... er... have said when they when they took her out, that there would be nothing nothing grow on the site of the house but runcho And I don't know the they were awful hungry for land in that day you ken and there was quite, there was more than one occasion there was old folk just putting up with the house just to get the land that it stood on. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] So whether... the fact that they thought that she was a witch was maybe kind of half an excuse just for getting her out of the house I don't know.... But they they'll tell you that you can still see where the house was because there's a runcho grows there.... There's different stories about I know that long ago about men being put out of their putting out of their houses just to and they just er demolished the house you ken and [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] just to get the land it was. There was a man that used to that worked in the mill. His initials is carved on a stone above the the kiln fire. And I think it's eighteen sixty six. Peter and was a house just up the road hereabouts. And he was just terrorized out of his house. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] And they. Put hens in his bed and... he come in one night and there was a s a man a stray man you ken an effigy of a man like and it was hanging by the neck from a rafter in the house. And I think they'd just been hounding him for a while and that was the last straw. And he came down he would have been working for he would have been at that time my great grandfather maybe or and he came down and he lived in lower Millfield after that and just as soon as he was out of his house, they just had the house demolished. Blew it up. [Agnes:] Mhm. and then divided up the land. [David:] Mhm.... [Agnes:] You were telling about that witch story afore, is that something that your father told you? [David:] I think it must have been indeed. [Agnes:] Mhm........ [David:] They are oh I don't ken when but they must you ken obviously a long time ago story. [Agnes:] Mhm. kind of story [David:] [LAUGHTER]... Er... well... story about the man from Rathlesholm. It was the harvest time and they were going to brew. Which they I you ken they were all all the houses would have about harvest time. And you ken and all their friends and neighbours came around to help with the harvest they'd have this home brew. So this man I think he came from Rosevale. Which is out along the shore in Rathlesholm. And he was going to somewhere in North End I think it was Huip to get barn to make this ale with. So he got the barn and he he had it in a peedie pail you see and he was on his road home and he was coming by this that hillock at Yensetter there.... And he heard this awful grand fiddle music. So he stopped and he listened to this and went to have a look, see what was going on. And this was the trolls having a celebration of some kind.... And so er whether the trolls keened he was there or not I don't ken but he he was watching this all the all the dancing. And listened to the awful grand music. And he stood and listened to this for a while and then he thought he was delayed long enough so he set off home. When he was coming along the road, the they were sawing.... And there was a mark on his... finger where his the handle of the pail was just sunk into the flesh of his fingers he was stood there the whole Winter listening to this music. [Agnes:] I've heard one like that, I've heard about the one where the man goes into the and and is there for years. [David:] Mm. [Agnes:] You know listening. [David:] [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] slightly different I think. Can you tell me about the one. [David:] Erm [LAUGHTER] There was a there was a man from Greentoft in Eday supposed to be. It was Gre he was out at the Caithes and it blew up a a gale a Westerly gale and blew him across to Norway you see. And... he was likely in poor shape by the time he got to Norway. But he survived it anyway and there was er folk found him there and kind of looked after him. And nursed him back to health and whatnot. And he was there but there was no way of getting back. And he was there for quite a while. At nights he used to go down to the shore and look out across the sea you see and he wondered what was happening back home at Greentoft and fairly homesick. And this had gone on for some time and he was down on the shore anyway one night and looking out across the the sea and thinking long for Eday and he met this man. And the man... was asking him what he was er... looking so mournful about and what. He said he told him the story and he said if you could just get back to to Greentoft, he says, I would give you the best two cattle out of my byre. If I could just get back to Greentoft. So the man told him to be down there the same time next night and he returned. So the next night this m the man comes down to the shore and here was two men with a rowing boat. This man he was spoken to the night afore and another one. With a rowing boat. I don't think he was just too impressed with this set up but [LAUGHTER] it was the only chance anyway so. They got him in the boat and... they he had to lie down in the bottom of the boat and they and they covered him with a tarpaulin. And he couldn't look out. So they got him settled in the bottom of the boat and just as they were putting this tarpaulin over him, and getting ready to set off, the one man He heard the one man saying to the other, he says, Right, forty miles a wee stroke of the oars. So they set off anyway and just in no time at all they were coming into the shore below Greentoft.... And it didn't seem very long to the man anyway. And er... he was just delighted to be back of course and... first thing he did was up to the house and... had a he had a look round and he was in the byre and had these two awful grand. And he was awful proud of them. And they were grown apiece while he was away and they were better than ever and the deal was been that he had was gonna give them the best two cattle you see and this was this was the best two animals he had. He was very loath to part with them. And he did kind of consider taking the two the next wasn't fairly so good. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] But he thought, Well that was the deal. So he stuck by it so he loosed these two and them down to the shore. And as soon as the the first ones forefeet touch the deck of the boat, the boat just disappeared and it was the trolls that was taking him home. [Agnes:] And that was the last he saw of them? [David:] And that was the last he saw of them. And he didn't have to part with his cattle after all. But what would have happened to him if he'd not [LAUGHTER] taken the cattle down I don't know. [Agnes:] that's another story with a an unusual ending cos I'd have thought when you were saying that he wasn't that he didn't give them the [David:] Mhm. And some something [Agnes:] the nice ones and something happened. [David:] terrible befell him but. [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] are there any more that you're about trolls or whatever? [David:] I don't think so Agnes.... I've really ne you don't hear many stories about trolls at all. [Agnes:] Mm.... [David:] I mind them they used to say too when [LAUGHTER] afore having a... boiled egg, you know just peedie. Insisted that they pu [LAUGHTER] put the eggs the shell. When you were peedie. Which I don't think mum entirely approved of cos she [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] seemed to think it was just quite proper table etiquette maybe but. And it was so that the fairies wouldn't sail away in the eggshells. [Agnes:] Mm. [David:] [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] But you [David:] Well it it was this this old wife had a a fairy that lived with her and apparently it wasn't an uncommon thing. And the fairies was boat you see but they were kind of wandering kind of things. [LAUGHTER] And this fairy was it was found an eggshell. So it'd got this eggshell in the bottom and they used they would work a a mast a sail on it. [LAUGHTER] And they'd got this eggshell in the bottom anyway and away it went. And it sailed off to a island that it came to. And there was just a whole loads of fairies on this island. And the peedie fairy was just delighted to start with but soon realized that there was something kind of fishy going on and it wasn't a very happy place. And it turned out that there was a big goblin that lived on this island and he just ate fairies. And he used to come around everyday and kind of size them up and pick the kind of fat juicy ones. And he would tell them that when he was going back to get gonna be his next meal.... And er of course the fairies was kind of gradually disappearing. So it wasn't a very happy island right enough. But this peedie fairy anyway, it was wandering about one day very disconsolate at the prospect and found a sparrow with a broken wing. So it... kind of nursed this sparrow you see and got its wing bandaged up and whatnot. And er and the sparrow started to get better and er it was starting to fly a peedie but again and was just getting its strength back. And this goblin came along one day and says to this peedie fairy that like he was coming to get her in the morning. So tearing off to find the sparrow. And er the sparrow thought he would maybe make it back to the mainland now so the peedie fairy climbed on his back and the sparrow flew it back to the mainland. And the peedie fairy came back and lived with the old wife been afore. And it never wandered any more after that it was seen enough of the big bad world outside. But the old wife... always put he egg spoon through the bottom of the eggshell when she had a boiled egg after that. [Agnes:] I've never ever heard of that before. Is that something that other folk on Stronsay know or is just something you [David:] I don't know. There's maybe not enough folk knew it because I don't know that there's very many fairies around. [Agnes:] [LAUGHTER] No. [David:] [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] . Where there never many ghost stories speak about some of them but [David:] Och I don't ken. [Agnes:] there's not very many black stories here that you've heard. and then came back and took a woman back with them as their servant. Are there many in Stronsay that you've heard of or not? [David:] that happened in Stronsay. [Agnes:] Did it? [David:] Mhm. [Agnes:] Tell me about that then. [David:] Erm well but the the descendants of them still here. [Agnes:] Is that so? [David:] Mhm. [Agnes:] I mean it's happened all over but [David:] But there's no ghost stories or [Agnes:] No. [David:] anything associated with it. But I believe it did did happen. [Agnes:] Mhm. ghost stories [David:] Ah I don't ken there's not really an an awful lot of ghost stories. There's Lower Millfield's supposed to be haunted. You see and it's likely one of the oldest houses on the island. You ken it's Well among the oldest houses on the island. [Agnes:] When you say that, roughly how old do you think have you got any idea how old it is? [David:] No I haven't a clue. [LAUGHTER] The mill has been I don't ken how long there's been a mill on the site there but the mill as it stands at present 's been there from eighteen sixty. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] Eighteen sixty one is the year it was heightened and extended and whatnot. But there's there was a peedie single story building there [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] before that. And you can see on the gable end just here, you know where it's been heightened you can see the the old gable end And there was a there was two water wheels. one where the water wheel is now. That was fed by the. But there was another wheel at the other end and there was a loch that the the f there were hill fields up between. The toft mill at the other end. And... as I say as I say I don't ken how long it had been there but that see that... likely about the same time as the as the mill was heightened and er the kiln would've been putting on. You see there wouldn't have been a kiln at the mill before that I think it every house had their own kiln and they dried their own you ken. Dried their own grain afore they took it to the mill. But so about the same time as the mill was heightened, I think that th land was drained. For my grand uncle could mind the man that dug the ditch that drained it. You ken, he was an old man then. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] So that in about nineteen sixties. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] Sometime. [Agnes:] Mhm. And that bit that comes right. [David:] Mhm. That's right. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] That's right. And [Agnes:] You don't have any idea [David:] No I've never heard of the mill being on anywhere different from where [Agnes:] No. [David:] it is now. No. So I would think it's just always been at that that site. [Agnes:] What what was what was the ghost story? [David:] I don't ken, nobody ken's where the ghost came from. Or who it is really. I think I've heard that that it it it was er it was the doctor's house some time. I don't ken how far back that is. But er there was something about a servant lass that got... pregnant. And committed suicide to avoid the scandal.... Or something. So it's possibly her that [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] Aha. [David:] that haunts the place. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] But it just manifests itself very very rarely. [Agnes:] Have you ever heard it yourself? [David:] No. No.... But mum has heard it. Maybe twice. And dad had heard it. [Agnes:] And what form did that take? I mean if they heard [David:] It m it makes an awful racket sometimes. And always at night. Terrible bangs and things that there's just no explanation for. [Agnes:] But [David:] No no. Just noise. The the last time that it happened was er... on it must be maybe twenty year ago or so. There was a beautiful night in the Summertime and the house was just full of women. There was mum and her and my grandmother, her mother. And Eleanor, sister. There was a friend of Eleanor's from Austria in the house and Kathleen. Yeah there was five women and dad was away and I was out at the fishing just for the night. And I came home about I don't ken, maybe eight o'clock in the morning or something a beautiful morning. flat calm. And here all these women was up [LAUGHTER] And er... the ghost was surely been performing that night. They'd heard this awful racket you see and they'd thought it was me coming and falling or something on the stairs. But you ken, very early in the morning. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] And they all, they got up in the morning and I wasn't home still [LAUGHTER] And must have been the ghost. [Agnes:] Eleanor heard it as well. [David:] Aha. Yes I'm sure Eleanor was there. [Agnes:] Mhm. [David:] [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] I don't know, it's not a very malicious ghost anyway, just... [Agnes:] Unexplained noises. [David:] Just the sort of unexplained noises thirty year or so. [Agnes:] [LAUGHTER] Were you speaking to about another ghost story or was that the one? [David:] No I [Agnes:] No. [David:] I don't ken. There's not really many ghost stories on the island I don't think. [Agnes:] That was the one that I'd heard about. What about any other stories linked with characters around about here that you've heard? Old characters that maybe you don't mind but you've heard spoken about. [David:] [LAUGHTER]... I [recording ends]

[Kitty:] When my mother was young she was down there. And she gave the school, no she gave them did that much, that they brought for here school books, and she finished her education in. And if I mind right I think it was some kind of relational that used to e in the bank, that was a teacher there. And then she they they lived in Stummerslake she was born in Greamsee [speaker002:] What size of a school would there have been in [Kitty:] Oh it would have been half as small, and she used to tell us grand stories with them setting off in the morning with their a bottle of milk and their, it's like a pi with them, to keep the fire going to keep them warm and everything. Oh what grand stories she did tell. [speaker002:] And what was it like as a small bairn Pharay then? [Kitty:] Well she thoroughly enjoyed the life, in fact right up, oh till nearly the end she spoke about Pharay and as long as she was able she used to go and she imagined she could see it better with the spy glasses. She loved Pharay, she loved the country she loved the people. And they were half a good smile, and they did not tell who's ninety two. Mhm.... [speaker002:] And what was it like for for a bairn on on Pharay? [Kitty:] Oh I think that the... well more or less kind of like what it'll be when we were young. They made their own amusements, and she learnt to knit and they had long winter nights round the fire o and they used to go She used to call it, we used to go after day set, that she called evening. And they'd visit one another and take their knitting with them and sit and yarn, and that was all the enjoyment. I don't Never heard her speaking very much about games. But oh she was perfectly happy there. [speaker002:] How many were at the school? [Kitty:] [LAUGHTER] I don't ken. [] It wouldn't have be so a great number. [speaker002:] How big is Pharay? [Kitty:] Oh God, I don't ken. I have no idea. It's not that big. Would there have been maybe about How many houses? Maybe about a dozen houses, I don't ken. I have visited the house that my mother stayed at, er called the North House Aye, it was just a pretty bit of a But and beam [speaker002:] What did the folk do? [Kitty:] Well they crofted in small way I suppose, and went the fishing. And they had what they called a floating shop, you know just a bit of a s a boat that came, Oh I think it was once a week, and they used to go and get supplies off of it.... Aha. Oh no, she loved the life in Pharay. Mhm. [speaker002:] And you've always lived in Stromness? [Kitty:] All my days and hope I finish it here. All me days. [break in recording] Can't understand what families want to go away at all. [speaker002:] What was Stromness like when you small? [Kitty:] Oh it was super. It was quiet, but there was different things that amused us that the bairns would just laugh at today, I mean, there was no pictures or things like that. That we'd go to the shore, and we'd spend a whole day there, no lemonade and biscuits then. A bottle of water or a pale of water and maybe maybe biscuits, I don't ken, and we had different games, and there was a a game. like those certain games that you played at certain seasons of the year. Like maybe now about this time of the year we would start with skipping, and then in the winter time, we well there was has a lot of, we would just seem to amuse ourselves. We Peedie concerts and things like that. And Oh me mother was good. She would read and everything else, and there was nine of us children had that much time, but we had a very happy childhood in lots of ways. They did not have electricity, it would be oil lamps and some of them I cannot mind when gas would come. But it would be old lamps and Peedie bits of and when you speak about long ago times I associate the smell of paraffin and sawdust and cooking apples and all that you go into Peedie shops and there was a fine relationship, you go in and Well I used to be for the old folk and they were all awful good to me, and the particular and we used to go every Saturday night to a shop called Blacks and it stayed open till nine o'clock. But there was Oh what to me seemed, in that days, to be oh awful grand shops for baking and what not. Folk would not look at it nowadays. been a kind of peedie that's indust industrious and what not. And it was basically long ago in the Well in me mother's day, there was the herring fishing, it was a busy time then. [speaker002:] Was your mother involved in that? [Kitty:] Well not in the herring fishing but er there was also a a salt fish kind of processing place out in the Hens And me mother work at it and she used to tell us about I supposed they'll be not rubber boats in that d days. Or the protective that we have now, and they would have sometimes have to weigh the whole. And send a whole day with, and it never hurt them. And then in the herring fishing time, oh it was very busy right enough, and you see they did they did no fish on a Sunday and they would come in on a Saturday night. And me mother used to say y you could you could have walked from the point of Ness, to the pier, how were the boats were that tightly packed in. And I remember herring fishing in me young days. It was the it was boats in me mother's day, of course then the drafters was. Anyhow it was like the sea and boats and everything else and I used to I was working in a shop and I use to get up early in the morning and go down and tally all the numbers and names of the boats and and there was an old man came in to shop while I was working in and asked about a certain boat, I says oh I can tell you, [LAUGHTER] trek down []. And I give him the whole book what lists names and numbers and what not. And I got a great big box of chocolates of him. Oh Well I always loved the sea, i don't think I could live without seeing the sea. [speaker002:] You said your mother could walk across? [Kitty:] Well when the tide was low, they would walk for the outer homes, then their hens and back again. And sometimes it would be a good of water you see, and they would get their feet wet. You can still walk across it low tide. I've done it myself when I was young. [speaker002:] What kind of a job did you do then? What what white fish was it? [Kitty:] [cough] It would be cod and ling and maybe haddock, I don't ken. Just what salt fish you had. [speaker002:] And who was processing them? [Kitty:] Well if I mind right, I think my mother used to speak about man,, that had this fish curing station over at the hens [speaker002:] And did he employ fisherman to fish for him? [Kitty:] Maybe the local fisherman did, where he got the fish I could not say. Or it might have been a bigger concern than I ken. And maybe he had other outside boats took fish to them too. But me old mother certainly spoke a lot about this and the and the salt fish. [speaker002:] How did they cure them? What what kind of a job was it? [Kitty:] They would salt them down and let them lie in the brine for a while and they would take them out and dry them. What way they dried them, whether it was in the sun or if they'd anything to dry them with, I don't ken. But they made a great thing with the salt fish. [speaker002:] It must have been awful bad in the hens [Kitty:] Mhm. I don't think they would have rubber gloves or any in that days. It was the same with the herring gutters that was here, I mind them working on the pier down here, and they all had their fingers tied up with Clotes There was the skill that work in this. [speaker002:] Where did all the rest come from? [Kitty:] Oh well they the North east a lot of them, if they all Oh my they would not do it nowadays. No. In all weathers the poor critters would be standing parking and what not. For very little money. [speaker002:] What sort of hours did they have? [Kitty:] They would start in the morning er I would say maybe eight o'clock, I dunno maybe sooner. And they'd still be working well on after s What we call tea time. [speaker002:] And what about your mother, when she worked at the the white fish station? [Kitty:] Well i think she'd go off early in the morning and then would come home about teatime. they'd take a piece with them and that was all they had to sustain them the whole day. Oh it was hard hard times. It's a wonder that they were as fit as they were. I would only been six or seven when the war started. It started in nineteen fourteen. First I mind about it was the first zeppelin that came over. Great big thing like a huge balloon and lived out at Ness and I mind me mother coming and getting us early and this great big thing come over. [speaker002:] Who was in it? [Kitty:] Why it be Germans. [speaker002:] What were they doing? [Kitty:] Reconnoitring about the fleet likely. That was the bigger threat The big thing that brought them to Orkney. It was not I suppose for anything other than the Flow that they came up as far as Orkney. [speaker002:] Do you remember the British warships being in the flow in the first? [Kitty:] Oh yes. When they would come in there would be like a all lit up, beacon. [speaker002:] What were the bairns told at school about the war? [Kitty:] Oh we Oh I suppose we were told about the war but being young and heedless we would not take it all in. I was ten when we could. And all I ken was that we got word that there was to be a school trip and that we were leaving I forget what tie in the morning, and going down to see the German ships. [speaker002:] Did you know about the fact that they'd been captured? [Kitty:] No, I did not realize it. And I was only one out the family of nine that volunteered to go and none of me brothers or none of them that was all keen on the sea, they did not seem to want to go. And I went. I dunno it was arranged but it was a a small water boat that took us down, the Flying Kestrel. Oh we left and oh we were all excited about going on what a great big boat and it was in fact only a small water boat. And we were all enjoying it and looking forward to going to see this big ships and whatnot. Sailing along quite the thing and we were right down I dunno how far, if we were right in the middle of them or just on the edge of them, but we were not far from them. When there was a sense of unrest and what not, and then first one ship then the other, starts shuddering but before that happened we saw Germans coming off in the rafts and that. Some of them swimming in the sea and whatnot. I was terrified. And then the the ships shuddered and and some would go down by the stern and others would topple up and they'd be great fountains of water. By his time I was terrified and I don't ever be so and our teacher took us down below and tried to play games my mind I distinctly howling my. And eventually we got they were frightened you see, that the suction of the boats going down would pull the the water boat under. So we turned and came back and oh it was grand. We got a grand welcome home. [speaker002:] Did nobody have any idea what was going on at the time? [Kitty:] I don't suppose No they wouldn't have any warning about this going to happen or they would never have taking a lot of bairns down among it. It was just very spontaneous surely. But they had it very well arranged, the Germans did. But there was a big loss of life as well, but what frightened me was this Germans coming over on Peedie bits of rafts and the men swimming in the sea and whatnot [speaker002:] Were you frightened because it was Germans? [Kitty:] Yes. I was terrified of the Germans. [speaker002:] Well what did you think they were going to do? [Kitty:] Well i had no idea. Maybe come and kill us or something [LAUGHTER] like that. I did not ken []. I was just terrified out me wits. When our people what was going on and one thing and another. But I As I say I were young and I wouldn't have been paying particular attention. But oh we were told about the war and what was happening between the Germans and whatnot. [speaker002:] And did you think that the Germans were were bad or? [Kitty:] Oh yes very bad. Well there was lots of families you see that had their boys and men and sweethearts and all at the front it was a sad time. People that you knew, you know, getting wires and that to say that their menfolk had either been killed or were missing or some like that. That sticks out in my mind. But our family was too young to me in the war like me brother. In [break in recording] What I mind of the last war it was too busy then. Very very hectic. I forget how many troops were here. But we lived near a battery, we lived out at Whale Park And when they they deciding give the Elizabeth was just a baby then and I used to grab Elizabeth and go in the bed and the d down quilt and the pillows on top of us and lie tight and send you until the was in the sitting room and the search light follow the plane was at The plane was that near the house that the searchlight come right into the window, and the next I ken was the bullets ricocheting off the roof. [speaker002:] Where did the bullets come? [Kitty:] The German plane that the searchlight was following. It was a German plane coming over. And the searchlights the the battery that we were The camp that we were near, they opened fire and the battery would open fire at that, and the searchlight anyway came in through the window. It was not a very fine experience. [speaker002:] Were there a lot of air raids at that time? [Kitty:] Oh well there was quite a lot of warnings and whatnot but er on the whole there was a lot but no more than any other place. But oh it was busy busy then. [speaker002:] Where did all the troops stay? [Kitty:] There was some of them billeted in private houses, and we just had a two r bedroom house out at Whale Park a Peedie bungalow. And you were If you had a spare room you were all Well I think you were forced to take in troops and we had Elizabeth, a baby, and we had lodgers, nearly all the wartime. We kept two at a time, sometimes one and not what not. And then there was the were staying our, the Stromness and the commercial and and that. And the distillery and then, of course, there was camps at the Belt [speaker002:] What about amusements? [Kitty:] Well speaking personally I had plenty of amusement butt here was pictures and there was mess dos and parties and what not. Oh it was a gay life. [tape change]

[Isa:] Oh well there was clothes and gardens and and just the same as it is now. But oh that's where the Was it the Clydesdale bank that's at the top of Castle Street? Mhm. That was and that was a grand shop. We used to all wear pinnies, white pinnies, on the top of our dresses and going to school and I used to go into old Mr n and he would say to me And what colour of the bow do you want on your pinny today? And I would say He'd wait for me to say, Blue to match my eyes. Just as a kid he would lift me up on the m up on the er counter, you know and me [LAUGHTER] I was born in and then we shifted to the bottom, you know that white house, I think it's all offices now, in the the erm big gates of the cathedral. You know at the bottom of the market green. Well the house, you just went in a gate there and went up the stairs there. So it was just My mother used to see me across the road with my shilling to pay for my pinny. And one day I dro [LAUGHTER] I dropped it down the the drain as I went into the shop. And I tears of course, you know, and er the poor old man he was a very small man, Mr, and er he lifted me up and told me never to mind, i could get another shilling. But I don't know whether I ever got [LAUGHTER] []. Or whether I got the pinny for nothing, I might have easy. [LAUGHTER] Yes? [speaker002:] Did you have to have a different pinny every day then? Oh very nearly. Oh yes, but they were just things that you tied at the back and and er had a frilled round here They were bonny. On the top of your dress. And what was the pinny for? Oh just dress. You were dressed in a clean one, you had a clean pinny on. [LAUGHTER] You know, just a thing with sleeves and and er han hang loose on you. You've seen pi pictures of that surely. [LAUGHTER] Was that to keep the dress clean? [Isa:] I don't know I think it was just to make us look pretty with a white pinny on the top of [LAUGHTER] our clothes []. [speaker002:] And did all the bairns wear t All the girls wear these? [Isa:] Oh yes. Nearly every girl. Well when they were tiny anyway. Mhm. [speaker002:] Well it must have been an awful job to keep all these white? [Isa:] Oh yes and then we Oh whenever we had anything like picnics or anything like that, we had lovely white dresses that were made of what they called nun's veiling. What could I say it was like? It was a sort of woollen soft material but very er thin. And the ladies all when they were dressed they would have a skirt made of this and a frilly blouse with a high neck and er a silver buckled belt round their waist. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Did they wear very tight corset? [Isa:] Oh mercy yes. Yes my aunt was Mrs David, and goodness me I can remember her having the laces pulled in. [LAUGHTER] just slim waists waists. Big bottoms I always [LAUGHTER] used to say []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What sort of things did they have to keep their waists in? They looked terribly tough. [Isa:] Well just corsets like that, and they're fastened on the front with things that clicked in and then sometimes they would have a What they called a Oh what on earth did they call that?... It was a thing made of whale bone that they shoved down side without fastening. And there were just as stiff as boards. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Did they have to keep that on all day? [Isa:] Oh yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well did that not do any damage to their ribs then? [Isa:] Well you would think so wouldn't you but it Nobody ever to say anything about it.... [speaker002:] Did did they have to wear lots of Do you remember your aunties or your your mother Did they have to lots of layers of clothes or they seem to be. [Isa:] Yes. And they they they very often, when they were dressed, they would have a little shawl that they would lay over their shoulders instead of a a long scarf thing you know? They'd have a little fancy shawl or My Grandma used to always have a fancy shawl that Just a small thing that came, you know, a bit down their back and And my Grandma used to wear erm a white much It was just thing like a baby's A cotton thing, tied with a just a string, you know just to erm just a tie under her chin and it would have a wee bit of lace s on the corner, or the or the end of the tie, that was through the day and it was all ruffled, and then [cough] when she was on holiday and came into town she had a a thing on her head made of velvet and it all had fancy little things in it. Very posh. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Did she live in the country? [Isa:] She lived in Deerness. Mhm. [speaker002:] Was it a big event to come into Kirkwall [Isa:] Oh yes. My goodness yes. Some some of them were never in t I well I didn't know my aunt when I met her with a hat on. My aunt. There was one time she was all dressed up to go to town and I didn't know her because she had a hat on. [LAUGHTER] I never seen her with a hat on in my life before, but Grandma wore a a bonnet, when she came into town. [LAUGHTER] and Grandma was the same, she had a she had another little fancy hat that she wore. Funny little things then. [speaker002:] Did Could everybody afford to have their own horse and gig or or was there a bus that came in or? [Isa:] Oh never such a thing as a bus, was brakes in these days that went to the country. [speaker002:] They didn't have a horse bus of any kind, did they? [Isa:] No Well Yes they had what they called brakes that came in. And erm they the w it was a place called diamonds in Deerness. Er Diamonds was the name of the farm or the place and then it came along to the lighthouse corner. New Lighthouse was the name of the house. that was one of mu un uncles that had that house and Well my cousins have it now. And then they set off from there into Kirkwall about What time? About nine o'clock in the morning. And we sat in two rows and two horses pulling at us. [speaker002:] And did they have to stop and change the horses? [Isa:] No no. Just you see? No no they didn't do tat. But Granddad had a lovely little What could you call it? A little gig It wasn't a gig either, he did have a gig but he had this thing, a sort of long shaped er What would you call it? I I've got mixed up with the names of the things. [speaker002:] Before my time [Isa:] I think it's Oh by Jove it is. Er and they used to sit in that.... Erm... two little doors at the Well it's just kind of the shape of What could I say it's the shape of? Well there would be a seat they would be facing each other in their seats. There's a picture of Granddad in in erm that new Orkney book that came out. Erm What's the name of it? [speaker002:] What the [Isa:] N David David Stanley had a whole lot of pictures and there's an awful lot of pictures in it belonging to my Granddad and Grandma. We're not in it but me cousins and uncles and aunts and everybody's in it. [speaker002:] Is that the the one. The all the old photographs of Orkney I've seen that one. [Isa:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Isa:] Well if you see an old man sitting there with a a shining fronted cap on you'll know that's me Granddad, in a white beard. [speaker002:] Is there any sort of shelter? [Isa:] Well when No no. No shelter. [speaker002:] What happened if it was a pouring day rain? [Isa:] it must have poured on us but I can't [LAUGHTER] ever remember it raining [] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] You know there was [] [cough] when we used to go to Deerness I had very long hair and we And Kirkwall wasn't just the cleanest of place at places at that time. And my hair was... gingery, more or less the colour of the map you know, or a little darker than the colour of the map. And when I When it was opened out for me going to Deerness, well that was a great event. Grandma used to always say, Oh I know she's on the bus because I can see her here. And er when I went to school, Miss the old teacher, she used to take me out, er I used to go to the school ready to go to Deerness, we had to ask out a quarter of an hour early. And erm when Because we went the first day of our holidays, right away, to Deerness to my mother's people. And er... I had to ask out this quarter of an hour early, well I got me hair all combed out all ready to go you see? But Miss used to take me out into here, to the teachers cloak room and and er er plait my hair up again and s say to me, I'll take it out before you go away Isa, because there was It wasn't a clean place in [LAUGHTER] Kirkwall []. [LAUGHTER] Such a thing's never heard of nowad days I don't think. [speaker002:] So You said that there wasn't an upstairs downstairs kind of thing at all then? [Isa:] Well I didn't feel it. I never I never had that feeling. We certainly were like being in the army more or less, and er there was the head servants and erm the under servants, you know? But it was er we all sort of had a respect for each other and each other 's jobs, but there was none of this erm upstairs downstairs and running frightened for people or anything like that. We all kept our place but we all It was As I said, just as if they gave you credit for what you could do.... It's in er Well how can I describe it to you?... [teeth sucking] But we never were made to feel inferior or er erm anything like that. I never I was never made to feel that way anyway. I just get so annoyed at this English women that wrote that book, Upstairs Downstairs, you certainly th th th We know that the butler and the cook are boss, you know. They're the They're the head ones and they're place in you're sort of in charge. But you don't rub up against that horrible feeling.... [speaker002:] What was society i in Orkney just before you left, you said you were a young girl and you left about nineteen nineteen. [Isa:] Yes. [speaker002:] Was there er was there a big gap in society in Orkney, were there You know were the rich were rich and the poor were poor? [Isa:] Oh yes, dreadful. Far worse than anything I ever met in the south. And er there r there are no real er gentry in Orkney you see, and you'll always find that if anybody gets a a a Well as I said to one boy here, I said to him look here I said your old grandfather worked in that shop till his backside was hanging out his brigs. And I said that's the reason that you can get a car anytime you want it. I said I've lived lo long enough to know that. I said And I always say that it's the Orcad [tape change]

[speaker001:] This week our guest on Sharing Time is Erlend who is one of the survivors of the Piper Alpha disaster and is one who has come back to Orkney this last week, staying with his family here in Orkney. First of all, looking back on those harrowing times of the sixth of July, what do you remember about the incident Erlend? [Erlend:] Well it was at night and I mean I was lucky enough to be working which is a thing that's probably accounted for saving a lot of people. Most of the survivors were ones who were working at the time. And I was working upstairs in er what's called the gascon module, Which was shut down at the time for repair work and things like that. And a call came over the radio that there was a problem with one of the pumps downstairs, so seeing I had nothing better to do at that time I went downstairs to give them a hand. Which again is a part of the luck which probably saved me and er when I got down to the pump which was directly below where the explosion occurred, there was about three or four of us there and er as I said that the only indication that we got out it was a an enormous bang just directly overhead. And there was dust and everything went black, all the lights went out, so I mean from that w we could ascertain that it was fairly serious what had happened. And er we moved away to the side of the platform to get out from underneath whatever had happened and had a look around. There was nothing visible downstairs where we were, so immediately went up the stairs at the side to the production level where the blast had come from, and there we met a group of people who had just come out of the control room and they were cut and suffering from shock 'cos the blast had obviously well it d nearly blown the control room apart. I mean the doors were hanging on their hinges then, things like that. And by the time we got there we could see a fire round at the back of the the crane pedestal which was in B module where most of the oil separation plant is. And er at that stage we tried the fire hydrants but I mean there was no water in the pumps the electric pumps there was no ele electric power 'cos the elec electric er generator was blown to bits, well they weren't working anyway. And er the diesel pumps weren't on and er there was a couple of guys putting on breathing apparatus and trying to get in to restart them, but I mean by this stage the smoke was so thick they couldn't even find where the pumps were. You can hardly see your hand in front of your face and er I mean there was no way to fight the fire, so I mean all we could do was sort of stand back and look 'cos we were up There was about At that stage there was twenty or thirty of us standing in this north west corner of the platform. And er th the fire was getting that bad that I mean the smoke was blowing directly across the platform at that stage. And er take a couple of steps away from the corner you couldn't see your a thing, so we were more or less stuck where we where. We could go downstairs to the sixty eight foot level was er er fog horn and lighting system for in the fog It's a Navaid system they call it. And er that was a platform down there. And off that there was a big knotted rope which c was thrown down. And er guys started to go down that to the twenty foot level where they were picked up by an inflatable off the standby boat. But I mean it was about twenty to thirty guys as I said. And I mean as they went down we got the the diver, so there was a few of them there. And er the ones out of the control room they managed to get down that stage we would be about half an hour after it, after the initial blast. And be about five or six of us left then, and we were just getting ready to get off when we got hit by the second big blast, which caused most of the burns to all of us then. And at that stage it was too late to go down the rope so it was just instinct more than anything else that we just jumped over the side from where we were then. And er after that it was just well every man for himself I never really saw any of the guys except for the o one guy who was on the platform with me at the time. I saw him when we got picked up off the I mean it was half a lifeboat we were left sitting on. When we got picked up and he was on it with me then. But I mean being in the water I had no life jacket or anything like that so it was a matter of trying to keep afloat and er kicking off my boots and getting me overalls. And er I mean it was all luck everything that sort of happened to me that night anyway I mean it it wasn't so lucky for other people but I suppose most survivors have their their tale or so. Fortune having smiled on them, and I mean if it hadn't been for a lump of expanded foam out of one of the life boats that had blown up at, if it hadn't come floating past me, I mean I would have been a goner as well, but I got hold of that. I managed to keep afloat then till, as I said we found this half a lifeboat and there was couple of fellows and er I managed to swim over to that and pull myself up on it and for there the inflatable off the standby boat came alongside, picked us up and put us on then standby boat. [speaker001:] At that stage then there was accounts of the sea almost being on fire with the oil and the mixture. What sort of experience How did you find that? [Erlend:] Well I never saw the sea on fire but f when we wen went into the sea I mean we were directly beneath the platform, and at that stage I mean the whole platform was on fire. And we couldn't You couldn't just swim on the surface because if you let any part of your body above the water for any length of time, I mean it just burnt. So I mean you had to sort of come up, and grab a breath, and go under the water and try and swim away from it. Which in the sea was pretty futile really, I mean you just had to go where the sea took you. and luckily it just took us round the side of the platform and away then. [speaker001:] Were there quite a few vessels around at that time that were giving assistance? [Erlend:] Well I can remember when I went Was in the water at the start, there was You could see a lot of boats coming in alongside the platform. But er it wasn't long after that there was another big bang on the platform and they all sort of turned tail and went away for their own safety. Which was pretty demoralizing for us that were in the water at the time but [speaker001:] So at that point then did you almost give up hope that you would be rescued? that you more or less were going to end in the sea at that point? [Erlend:] Aye, well I mean that There's there's so many things that go through your mind that In a situation like that. I mean you've got to try and keep yourself afloat, and then even that's not going to help you, if nobody comes along and picks you up either, so I mean that But I mean I I didn't Oh well I Suppose I could say I gave up hope a few times but obviously if you s The struggle to survive comes through in the long run, and I mean it's it's not easy to give up hope, [speaker001:] At that stage when you were picked up then, what happened the, where were you taken to after that. [Erlend:] Well we were taken up to the standby boat which is I mean every vessel in the North Sea, every rig and installation has a boat that circles it, non stop, twenty four hours a day and I mean that The standby boat on Piper I mean it was the the two inflatable boats off it that picked everybody up, and most folk up, and one of them was lost, they lost two of the crew off that. I think that was hit by debris off the platform. But I mean it was it that we were taken to first, and I mean thee was a lot of people on it and I mean it had obviously saved a lot of lives. And er we were on that for about an hour or so and then they got rid of the the badly injured were taken off then and put on the Therris it's support vessel that was Just happened to be there at the time. And it and it's emergency hospital on it, and I mean they'd flown doctors out from Aberdeen, and medics off other platforms round about. [speaker001:] So you were actually Were you taken to Pharros as well? For treatment? [Erlend:] Mhm. I was taken here but at the time I mean I wasn't one of the really seriously burnt, I mean I was still conscious and I was still walking around. And it was just me arm and me hand and me face that were were burnt and and at that the time I mean I wasn't in any pain and I think there was more serious ones to be dealt with. [speaker001:] At that point then you were airlifted back to a hospital in Aberdeen. [Erlend:] Aye. It were six Five or six o'clock in the morning I think I arrived in Aberdeen at six o'clock. To Aberdeen Royal Infirmary where I were treated. Yeah. [speaker001:] And there'd been quite a number there, obviously in that burns unit, who were suffering from the same type of er injury. [Erlend:] Well I mean it's Considering the number of s survivors, there wasn't that many that were burnt. I mean there were only been about at the most ten who were suffering from burns. maybe five or six that were quite serious one. I there was a couple that were really seriously badly burnt, and one of them didn't survive. [speaker001:] When actually did you sustain your your burns, and you said that was actually on the second blast, [Erlend:] Aye that was Well that that was on the platform when I got me face burnt and me left hand, which I think was burnt trying to protect me me head or face at the time. I don't know how me right hand survived it, I mean it's quite good. And er after that I think my right arm's got badly burnt. But I think that was when I was in the sea holding on to the bit of foam, and more or less just let myself float under the water, but me arm was round the top of the bit of foam, on the surface, and I think it got burnt by the the heat off the platform then. [speaker001:] Obviously you were in hospital for a number of weeks. What about the treatment that you were given in Aberdeen? Did you find that they were obviously sympathetic to what happened and the spirit in the hospital would have been quite hight really? [Erlend:] Aye. Well I mean I can't say enough for the people in the Aberdeen Royal Infirmary, I mean they've got a great burns unit there and I mean er er I think the plastic surgeons and what knot are about they must be some of the best in the world. [LAUGHTER] Just looking at what they've done to me. And er they treated me there I mean I was about two weeks in a room on me own, and taken out then into the main ward for another four weeks. And I mean the nurses and everybody, the doctors were really great, and they give us the best of treatment there, and I don't think you'll speak to anybody that was in the hospital that'll say anything differently, they were really great. [speaker001:] Obviously with that number of weeks that you were in hospital, it must have given you plenty of time too, to think about future prospects in a fairly dangerous industry in the North Sea. What about your feelings now looking back on it? Do you think that you would like to return to the platform work? [Erlend:] Aye well we've all spoken about it before and I mean yo When we were in hospital we spoke together about it and er obviously it's it's it's something you that won't really be able to tell unless you give it try. And I mean I would like to go offshore again, just to prove to myself whether I could or could not do it. I mean whether I'll ever work offshore again's another thing, but I would like to to try going offshore I mean then again I mean I reckon I could work offshore no problem at all, but whether I could sleep on the platform is a completely different matter. [speaker001:] There would always be that fear that it a similar incident might happen and er and that er it was those who were asleep at the time who were unlucky enough not to survive. [Erlend:] Well they wasn't the most unlucky. [LAUGHTER] To put it like that. But er I mean we We've spoken about it before, on the platform, and things like that, that I mean everybody knows the score that if something happens [LAUGHTER] if you're [] if you're sleeping you've not got a an excellent chance, put it like that, I mean you er I mean nobody ever expected anything like what happened on piper to to happen any on that scale. I mean even wh when we saw it ourselves, I mean you couldn't comprehend the scale. I mean I can remember being underneath the platform, being on fire and I mean I I just kept saying to myself that this wasn't really happening. [speaker001:] How about the the safety er precautions that were taken on board Piper or in fact on board any oil platform installation. It wouldn't have been able to cope with such an immediate diaster as as happened on on that night. [Erlend:] No I mean I I don't think what happened on Piper can be put down to basic safety. I mean I don't think it was a gas leak, it wouldn't have caused an explosion to the extent of that. And at the time, I mean it's half past nine, all work had stopped, mostly at that time of night anyway. So I mean there was no poor operating but this is going on, I wouldn't have thought. So I mean it goes down to must be something like equipment failure which is something that nobody can really allow for. [speaker001:] What sort of safety training had you had for an evacuation or in fact a a slow evacuation from the platform while you were out there? [Erlend:] Well I mean, everybody goes to Robert does their off shore survival which takes you into helicopter survival and l launching lifeboats off the platform and life rafts ev and er that done I mean you get your certificates and what not for that and everybody is to get refresher courses every two or three years, I'm not really sure which. And then on the platform every week there's a evacuation drill where it's usually on a Sunday night or a Saturday night it was changed to recently. But the platform general alarm goes off and everybody goes to their master stations by the lifeboat. And then they test the evacuation alarm then, so that everybody knows the alarms and er where to be and then th Every six eight weeks or something they take you for a helicopter evacuation where everybody's taken from the lifeboat master station. Taken the whole way upstairs to the galley where they go through their er helicopter evacuation drill then. But er all of that was negated by the fact with the amount of fire and smoke that was on the platform, nobody could get to the lifeboats. And plus the fact that with the control room had been taken out nobody could sound the general evacuation alarms either, there was no alarms or anything or any warning for anybody on the platform either. [speaker001:] And as you say at that stage it really was just a matter of erm every man for himself really. [Erlend:] Aye well that's it er I mean there was no, as I said there was no alarms for anybody else or anybody who wasn't there really wouldn't have a much of an idea to how drastic it was and what was going on at the time. As I said you can't envisage or set up emergency procedures for anything as as drastic as what happened there that night. I mean wh when your whole control room's wiped out and er you can't really expect anything like that. I mean un unless you make the control room blast proof, which is maybe a thing to be looked in to in the future and then again they're speaking about making the accommodation module separate from the platform itself which is another thing, but I mean that's all to be looked at. But whether you scrap all the platforms that are at present built in the north sea's another thing all together. [speaker001:] There has been some criticism of general safety precautions on board rigs and platforms out on the north sea. Do you have any general feelings about that, do you feel that things could be tightened up? [Erlend:] I suppose there's always a room for safety procedures to be tightened up, I mean it's like in any place you work. Everybody's completely happy with the procedures that that go on. But er, it's difficult it's difficult at sea. I mean from rig to rig things work differently and I mean on on Piper, I would say there were probably things that could have been tightened up but then again I don't think they were part and parcel of what happened and there on July the sixth. [speaker001:] The government has now said that they're going to order oil companies to install shut off valves below platforms. Do you feel that that would have solved the situation on Piper Alpha altogether or how far would it have gone to perhaps lessening the the blow of the the occasion? [Erlend:] It's hard hard to say how much that would have helped the situation out there I mean it definitely would have helped in some degree, but I mean there was still all the oil that was present on the platform in the separators except those which were left under pressure all that would have had to burn. And er as I've said before, I haven't seen a a barrel of oil burning and the heat and smoke that comes off that you consider the amount of oil that would have been in the separators on the platform at the time, I think it would have still have caused an awful lot of heat and an awful lot of smoke and fire, and er just shutting off the oil coming back to the platform maybe wouldn't have helped that much. But I mean a any anything in a situation like that's going to help. [speaker001:] Again, with the time that you were in hospital considering your future, what did your family think about your possibility of you going back out? [Erlend:] Well I mean they've never really spoken about it one way or another, encouraged me or discouraged me, which I think I'm grateful for. I mean if there's a decision to be made I hope they'll just leave it up to me. I think that and I mean you go with the sort of attitude, that lightning will never strike twice in the same place, but then again I mean who knows? [speaker001:] Clearly it was a time when so many people were lost, and it was the world's worst oil rig disaster. Looking back on that then, you must have lost a great number of colleagues and workmates that it must give you sort of mixed feelings looking back on it? [Erlend:] Well it does, I mean it's it's I mean I've been there about just over three years, three and a half years. I mean when you're working for a week at a time with the same blokes week in week out I mean you get to know them really well. It is difficult to to come to terms with the fact that I mean it's people that you've worked with for a week, at a time and I mean for three and a half years every second week you're working with that guys in a confined space, you get to know them really well. And I mean it is your sort of second home, and the guys that you work with every every week, I mean sort of become, I mean it's a bit of a cliche to say, but I mean part of a family that you living out there that you live with out there and it is a real I mean when you think of the number that was lost, I mean there were a lot of close friends involved in it. [speaker001:] Obviously having such a a close brush with death is something that you you've you've obviously lived through and be something that er you must feel strongly about. Do you feel that this particular incident has changed your attitude towards life? [Erlend:] I can't honestly say that up to now I've thought that much about it. I mean I've only just come out of hospital and as it is I'm still fairly well Macked with it. And you think that you're lucky to be alive in that respect, but I've never really thought that I was specially picked out for some reason to carry on living. But then again in the future it might sink in that [LAUGHTER] that there was a special reason for it, I don't know. [speaker001:] Obviously with so many having lost their lives on the disaster, you say that you don't feel it's maybe an act of God int hat sense, that you were picked to to be saved, but erm you don't feel any guilt as such either,o that you were one of the ones and er so many others had been lost? [Erlend:] No I don't feel guilty, I mean I would I would love to see everybody that was on the platform still alive. But then again I think I would I would be lying if I said that, I wish it was me rather than anybody else. but no I mean I i mean I've lost a lot of good friends on it, and I would love to see them back alive but, there's nothing much I can do about it. [speaker001:] Very shortly after the incident an appeal fund was set up and money poured in to that from various sources including the oil companies themselves. What's your reaction to that sort of appeal fund? Don't you think that perhaps it might have been better for the oil companies to have perhaps done more at an earlier stage, in the the safety side of things? Or how about the the questions about an an appeal for for the victims and er relatives of the disaster? [Erlend:] Well I personally think with an appeal fund like that, I mean the amount of money that's gone into it is ridiculous considering the amount of compensation that everybody's going to get or hopes to get after it. I mean the only thing that an appeal fund like that should do is to give the widows and dependents of the the dead of the platform, it should give them immediate money to tide them over until they get their compensation which they need. And er the amount of money that's in the appeal fund, whereas it shows a great feeling of warmth from the general public, I think I don't I mean there's people dying all over the world, even at home here in Orkney, there's people that dying, they don't receive any great compensation for that. And I mean I think that if it was spread more I mean if if if people locally gave more to to bereaved in their own areas, I mean it would go down a lot more good there. I said that the Occidental are gonna They'll either willingly pay or they're going have to pay a lot of compensation to the bereaved and er fund more or less just going to top up any money when it's probably not going to be necessary in the long run. [speaker001:] At this stage then having spent so many weeks in hospital, how long will you be required to continue further visits to you know,up update the treatment? [Erlend:] Well I mean I I think the grafts that they've done, the major grafts anyway, are finished and er they seemed to have taken really well, so I mean it's just a matter of time, really, for them to settle. And I mean they say with skin grafts it takes two years before they're completely settled and accepted. And er I've got to go back next week for a sort of check up and I mean I suppose that'll continue for weeks to come. But er it's just a matter of time now for the discolouration to fade a bit, and things like that, that's mainly the worst that's left. [speaker001:] So in sense then that er the extent of your injuries really would not debar you from working offshore as far as you understand? [Erlend:] I've never really asked the extent The limitations of the injuries that I've got. I mean I'm going on the on the opinion that full function'll come back and I'll be able to do any work that I was doing before, and there'll be no change at all. The only problem is with er the skin grafts and that. They say that I mean any changes any in temperature are very noticeable so w Like it is working in the middle of winter offshore would be something I would have to come to terms with but no I mean I don't think there's any problems work-wise. I would hope not anyway. [speaker001:] Clearly it has been a an extremely trying time for you. How have people reacted and responded to your treatment and really erm how they feel about things now? [Erlend:] Well in hospital, I mean the number of cards and get well cards and well good wishes I received, and offers of help from people. I mean there's people I hadn't even seen for years that were staying there in Aberdeen came along and offered help. And everybody that sent cards, I mean it was really great I mean get well cards are sort of things that you see in shops and you never really think about it, but when when you're lying flat on your back in hospital and you get cards for people, I mean it really does give you a lift. And I mean I can't thank the people enough that sent them all. And I mean there are too many to to name individually as well. But I mean it's it er it was great I mean the fact that I was I mean in in Aberdeen I was away from home, I mean you didn't even notice it, because of the number of Orcadians that popped in by the hospital and as I said sent cards and letters, it was great. [speaker001:] Well thank you very much Erlend, for sharing time with us this Thursday lunchtime, and we'll wish you a very speedy recovery and hope it won't be too long, in fact, before you're back at work. [Erlend:] Thank you. [tape change]

[Kieran:] Good morning. [speaker002:] Good morning to you. [Kieran:] What happened to sunshine? [speaker002:] I don't know. You might have arranged it better. [Kieran:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] How many lifeboats are you going to land on today sir? [Kieran:] Well we're going to have two. We have this one and then we're going further south and operate with the other, the second one. [speaker002:] What happens now, now that you are winched down? [Kieran:] Well the aircraft, simply do an orbit, come back around, back into wind and then come winching in under my directions using hand signals. Th the only thing I mentioned to the crew is to be aware of static, there's a lot of static electricity at the moment. So er just er let me handle that. Okay? [speaker002:] Yes, thank you. [helicopter] [Kieran:] Kieran, winch man on the Sumburgh coastguard helicopter, and the rest of the duty crew that morning were winch operator Terry, pilot Norman and copilot Tim. The honourary medical officer of the Longhope lifeboat is Dr Tony, and he would normally be assisting casualties to be uplifted, but that day he himself was to be winched up from the lifeboat to the helicopter, and once that part of the exercise was completed and he was back, safely on deck, I asked him, How was that? [Tony:] That was great. Absolutely [speaker002:] You enjoyed it? [Tony:] lovely, it was a bit of an anticlimax I thought. I mean I thought I'd be absolutely frightened out of my mind but erm no. I think you just have a philosophical attitude, if they're going to drop you, they drop you and that's that's [speaker002:] What did he mean when he's saying the static? [Tony:] Static electricity. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Tony:] Well it's like getting out of a car on a hot day and putting your putting your hand on the door, I think. But I didn't feel anything. The only thing was noise. [speaker002:] Have you done it before? [Tony:] I was involved a few years ago in the in the Lance, the rescue er That the lance went ashore on Hoy and er the helicopter there took the casualties of the Lance and dropped [speaker002:] Yeah. [Tony:] them onto the lifeboat. [speaker002:] Was that a soft landing you had back there? [Tony:] No, I got a very sore [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. Dr Tony, honourary medical officer. Once the exercise was completed satisfactorily, the coastguard helicopter duly saluted us and flew of at speed to rendezvous with the Stromness lifeboat. The Longhope boat, the David and Elizabeth King, E B, is a solent class self righting lifeboat and has been on station since nineteen seventy. Once she was safely winched back up the slipway into the lifeboat shed, I spoke to some of the crew. Firstly, Jack, coxswain, since nineteen seventy. Are you going to be sorry to see that boat go? [Jack:] Och well you have to shift with the times, and the new boat which is much faster will be a great help. [speaker002:] Have you been out with the helicopter before? [Jack:] Yes, quite often. We've been exercises, this is the third exercise with the helicopter. [speaker002:] When was the last called out? Not on exercise with the helicopter? [Jack:] That'll have been the trawler run ashore on on er Pearworth Gareth and we were all come ashore on but it wasn't er. I think that'll been the last helicopter. [speaker002:] Have you worked with that helicopter that was on exercise today? [Jack:] Well er everything, Navy helicopter from Lossiemouth, we were out with [speaker002:] The big Seakings? [Jack:] Seakings. We're were out with before. Yes, we're never out on an exercise with the [speaker002:] Jackie, coxswain of the Longhope lifeboat, who was awarded the R N L Is bronze medal for gallantry for his part in the rescue of the crew of the Ross Turn from the Taft Tail of Swona in nineteen seventy three. The new Longhope lifeboat will be a forty seven foot tyne class, fast slipway launch. She'll be a tonne lighter in weight but very much faster. I asked the mechanic, Ian, who'd looked after the David and Elizabeth King, if he'd regret seeing her go? [David:] No I'm I'm really looking forward to getting the new lifeboat, because I think it'll be a great advantage from the station here. At least we'll have a lot of speed, The show a big advantage and a bigger speed, er out here. [speaker002:] Have you had any problems with this one over the years? [David:] Oh none at all. It's gone like a dream, it's er I've had no major problems with it at all. It's just been a good boat to us. Really. [speaker002:] But you are going to be sorry to see that one go because you've looked after her for so long. [David:] Ah yes I have looked after it for ever since it was new and er and it was the one that reopened the station after the boat's lost here, but as I say you've got to look forward and I think it's a good idea to to have a new boat here. Cos it's a good young crew, and everybody's pretty enthusiastic. [speaker002:] Ian, mechanic. Billy has also been in the crew since the David and Elizabeth King came on station. And I asked him about that particular morning's exercise with the coastguard helicopter. [Billy:] Well it's like what most exercises are, it seems like a lot of nonsense but actually when it comes to the crunch, you actually know what's going to happen, you know the the procedures and everything like that. So that it's it it has certainly got a lot of value an exercise like that, even with entirely good conditions. [speaker002:] How many exercises have you done with the Sumburgh coastguard before? [Angus:] Oh we've done two or three, we usually do one Well er I wouldn't regularly but probably one every year or you ken something like that. [speaker002:] Today it was winching. [Billy:] That's just what they usually do for an exercise, there's no much You cannot actually simulate an actual rescue so that's the best you can do. [speaker002:] But the conditions today weren't exactly calm anyway so it was a pretty fair exercise. [Billy:] Well I suppose but er you can imagine a lot worse than that. [speaker002:] Billy. And the rest of the crew that morning were Billy, second coxswain, John, assistant mechanic, Jimmy and Vincent. Also Angus, who was the youngest on board that day. [Angus:] Well I'm not actually signed up but I'm going to start signing up now as a crew member. I just go out on exercises now and again, fill in for somebody. [speaker002:] You have a relative though, already on the crew? [Angus:] Yeah, dad, he's the coxswain. And I also have a brother that's on the crew. [speaker002:] Have your family always been involved with the lifeboat? [Angus:] As far as I've been told and remember, Dad's always been on the boat, yeah. Different boat. [speaker002:] Will you going to on the new one? Will you be here when it comes, do you think? [Angus:] Yeah. By that time hopefully I'll be signed up as a crew member. [speaker002:] Angus. And my thanks to all connected with the Longhope lifeboat, for my day out. I spoke later to Jackie, lifeboat secretary, and asked him how many of a crew he had to call on at any time. [Jackie:] We now have fifteen men who have past the medical exam and the board of trade eyesight test and are now fully enrolled lifeboat crew. There is one or two not quite completed training yet. [speaker002:] There's a great family tradition, obviously, in Longhope as there must be in every Orkney and Shetland lifeboat. [Jackie:] Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah the the crew seems to evolve. The the father would be on the boat, and the son would, as a young boy, would come to meet the workers that came back and he begins to help with the ropes and the winching up of the boat and the washing down, and so on, of the boat after she's been on service, and so on. And as the years go by and the father retires the son comes on to the boat, so it is really a very family thing, the lifeboat service. [speaker002:] What particular memories have you got of this lifeboat? [Jackie:] My memories of this boat would be mainly the the big rescue she did and the Taft Tail of swanal Aberdeen trawler Ross Turn. Was ashore in a cleft among the rocks there and the the lifeboat had to turn in a position that was just about twice her own length. The crew were all clinging on to the side of the trawler and the last men off, Billy and John took 'em They got hold of them by one leg and they pulled them off. And the lifeboat was able to turn and to get safely back out again. Which was really quite a rescue. I out there the next day and all that was showing above the water was the mast. Wee bit at the top of the mast of the trawler. She has sunk by that time. My earliest memory of rescued people being landed by the lifeboat would be in the nineteen thirties, see. Going down with my dad who had been president of the lifeboat here for about fifty years, to meet the lifeboat as come in with survivors, I was just a wee boy at the time but I remember the Icelandic trawler, the Geyser and one of the first to be put ashore off the lifeboat that night, was a wee lassie, and she came across the pier and she came to me, because I was the only kid down there that night. And er maybe about five six years ago, a parcel of blankets came from Iceland for the Longhope lifeboat, from this same woman, and there had been no contact whatsoever between the time she was rescued and then, which was amazing. [speaker002:] Have you heard from her since then? [Jackie:] Never never heard from her at all since then. But it is the R N L I it's something like a huge club because er go where you like, you're always received well among the fishermen and the shipping people. And so I've quite often been in Stromness and somebody said to me, how are you getting home tonight? You see? As much as to say, well if you need a lift home, just let me know. So it is It's a marvellous thing really, the R N L I. [tape change]

[Marcus:] give him. [speaker002:] Just take your pipe. [speaker003:] Can we go a little bit into the background of the boys' ploughing match, Marcus? How did it originate? Do you know? How how did it all begin? [Marcus:] Well there's been speculation about that, but no nobody can actually tell us how it began but it's it's easy enough to imagine how it began, I think. Because er if you look at little boys on farms today, they play with toy tractors and things don't they? And er they don't necessarily er er do things with these toy tractors er Well th they they tend to things with these toys to imitate the the real thing er so I th I think the same thing would have happened, maybe a hundred years ago or maybe less, in regard to ploughing with horses on the in the fields. And er they would maybe er devise or make or r find a piece of suitable wood or something to to scratch in the garden or in the sand or on a piece of nice soft soil, to make furrows and er imitate maybe what their Dad was doing out in the field and er they had no concept of doing anything else to play really, it was just pretending they were pretending they were grown up and working. And I I think that it it it would just grow out of that kind of activity and then eventually when ploughing matches er, as such, in the you know, in the adult farm, with horses, became the great thing er which was the second half of the last century, you know after the farming revolution. Er ploughmen and horsemen were the elite of farm workers and the sons would could only aspire to do what they did and And er eventually I suspect it got to be a little more organized and er they had these little games of of ploughing matches, maybe in a rudimentary farm to begin with, but it eventually came to be as we see it today, over a long period of time. [speaker003:] Is it possible then that perhaps there were boys' ploughing matches on all the other islands as well, and the tradition has only survived in South Ronaldsay? [Marcus:] Mm no it's er It was in Berry, it was in Berry. I've seen photographs of the ploughing match in Berry. Er pre-war. Er but in South Ronaldsay and Berry only, I'm pretty sure it wasn't anywhere else. [speaker003:] it used to be at a different time of the year, though, didn't it? [Marcus:] Well it fitted into the easter holidays, erm and in fact it followed the farming seasonal pattern. You see no nobody ploughs in the summer time, really, on a farm. You plough in the spring, you plough in the winter. And you get the seeds sown in the spring. So they er would have done the same thing in those days, the children, and erm it fitted in to the easter holiday time to have the actual ploughing match, you see? [speaker003:] No in in your memory, of course, you've been involved in it for a long time, haven't you? [Marcus:] Well off and on. I haven't been so much involved in it as perhaps some other people and I don't pretend to be an expert. But I I did take part in it when I was a a boy in school, and that's a that's a fair while ago, now right enough, but er er I used to attend the er Well a primary school, I went to the small Grimness school, in the north end of South Ronaldsay, which has now been closed for over twenty years. And er we had our own little ploughing match there you see? Maybe not more than half a dozen in in fact, I remember only four I think, the lat one I was at. Er on the sand at Grimness Now there's hardly any sand there then, you had difficulty finding a patch, not not like where you've the huge area now at the Barrier And so er I I I know that in the Hope they had a bigger one, and I believe in the Wyvell area they had one as well, you see? But I was never really involved in those ones at all. [speaker003:] How much has it changed in the costume and the ploughs, nowadays compared to when you were young? [Marcus:] Well it's become much more elaborate and sophisticated and er dare I say, expensive? You know [LAUGHTER] to do, er in regard to the so called horses costumes. Er as I remember it it was pretty rudimentary and er you didn't keep a costume or a suit for the job. People couldn't really afford to that then. Er on the day of the event you went either your mother or somebody else's mother Usually the custom was that the [clears throat] the boy who was to be the horse would be decorated either by his own mother, say, or or perhaps the person who he was s s he Who he was partnering as as as ploughman, you know, horseman. With the ploughmen and er in my own case I remember going to the house where I was er I was to be the ploughman for this so called horseman you see? [] If you understand that. And had these things kind of pinned on, wore First World War army badges. I remember one with the R G A, the Orkney R G A, Royal Garrison Artillery, I remember that badge being pinned on and er bits of braid, you know, sown round the bottom of your of your trousers, short trousers. And it wasn't a lot, and then as soon as the event was over it was all smartly taken off, you know. [speaker003:] What about the judging, is that really based on the the turnout or is there any ploughing skill involved in that as well? [Marcus:] Th th the ploughing? [speaker003:] Mhm. [Marcus:] Oh very much a very much a very much a skilled job you know? You won't get a prize unless you're up to it, The er the ploughing has to look professional. It has to resemble the real thing as done in the fields. Even today tractor ploughing is You know, there's a pride in doing a good job and er while the the single furrow plough, the techniques are a little different, the the end result is much the same. [speaker003:] What about the ploughs themselves, now, they of course are all handmade specially for the match, [Marcus:] Mm. Mhm. [speaker003:] were they always made by the local blacksmiths, or did somebody sometimes construct one, as you said at Out of wood or other material? [Marcus:] Yes. The the blacksmiths made some and they were rather heavier and slightly different proportions, prewar after what they are today. Er they tend to be more sophisticated and slimmer and nice looking, but we have quite a few craftsmen around now, no blacksmiths as such, but even in the old days er you had rather cheaper versions made with wooden handles and just a nice piece of light Tinwooey bent over to form the board, the mould board and that. Erm now you're getting them much more er s ooh sophisticated you know? With nice hardwood and stainless steel boards and things er because people have access to these materials and you have chaps who are er good with their hands and can do it, make a plough for their son, that sort of thing. [speaker003:] Have the rules changed over the years, for example have the age groups or allowing girls to take part or anything like that? [Marcus:] Well the age group was always just school age which was up to fourteen. now of course it's up to sixteen or rather under sixteen. That is includes fifteen. they tend to drift away when they get to the last year anyway, you know? Er girls were never included as horses as I remember it, but nowadays there are of course, which means that you have more boys available to be ploughmen and this perhaps helps the numbers. The girls used to join in the in the party afterwards, you know? But no They didn't take part in the event really. [speaker003:] And does it have to be young people resident in South Ronaldsay, or is it more of an open contest now? [Marcus:] Oh it's always been confined to the Really it was to the school areas, you see? Er each school area. It wasn't run by the school as such, or anything, it just just kind of happened but the er I mean teachers or anybody like that was never involved in it. But it ran with each school area, you know, Berry, Grimness, Marketthorpe and so on, [sigh] and now of course the total areas as one but I think perhaps it would be permissible to somebody with local parentage maybe not resident in the area. Don't see much of that happening actually. It's a very strong local tradition and I think it'll stay that way. [speaker003:] So we have to hope for a fine day for this on Sunday, obviously. What happens if i it is a really bad day? Has it ever been, in your memory, postponed or cancelled, or do they just carry on regardless? [Marcus:] I don't remember it being postponed. Although at easter time there is some shocking bad weather sometimes, you know really cold sleety showers and it's just a question of getting out there to the sand and get it over quickly. But in those days you didn't have many visitors at all. There weren't many people looking on. Now that it's become a summer time exercise it's er good for the tourist you know? And this helps to foster it because the tourist contribute well to the funds and this gets the children more prize money and so on. [speaker003:] Lovely. Right, anything else you want to add on that Marcus,? So how did the event get the title of the festival of the horse? [Marcus:] Well er to me it doesn't quite ring true, it's always been the boys' ploughing match and it always will be as far as I'm concerned but I think this happened at the time post war I can't say exactly which year, when the date was changed from easter time to August. This was partly to get better weather I think, for the competition, and also to attract tourists. And I think originally it may have run in the first year both at easter and at August. Erm and it was organized then as a tourist thing. And this title er the festival of the horse was, shall I say dreamed up, erm and in fact we had one or two horses, Clydesdale horses, on show down at the Crummery square in the Hope. Just to make it more of a horsy event. So that title to some extent still sticks with it, but it I can't hel I'm old fashioned enough to th to think of it as being a bit a bit false, you know? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] That's grand,love [break in recording] [William:] I couldn't put you right with that because I'm not sure then or no. I can't remember. They could have been mind you. But the only difference that I see was that they pushed their ploughs there, so they must have been smaller than the ones we use. But we had er [LAUGHTER] horses [] [LAUGHTER] Pair of horses, no or lasses or whatever. And that's what What year? I don't know how many years had There's a chap in the village, Jim, he might be remember, but he ran out of time too, to win the cup I think. You see I think he'd win it three year. It's just like the World Cup. [speaker005:] Where did people get their ploughs from? [William:] Well the blacksmiths made two that I know of. And there's one hanging in the village that you'll see in a window. And me dad, he made three anyhow, course there'd be non of them to the for they were wood. They were just wooden Stalch you know, on end. A beam made the wheel and the counter as we called it on it and all. Wood is a good working thing. We'd a very good job. He was a good hand. In the sand you see the iron although it broke it more but this plough he'd kept the thing fairly together. I mean about the job, that's why I got fast you see? It was keeping the thing just like what you do in the land. in the ploughing matches you see the size and smooth, that's how they were and that was, what this wooden plough did. The sand i's solid, more solid than the earth you see? And it just you curled it up with a plough you see? Just lovely And was no broken again it was just standing kind of like, Really made a good job. It's was our wood plus the Bore had made. I don't know how many years it went on and then there were a lot of ploughs and boys a lot of their own ploughs I think. They couldn't afford to get a smithy made plough you see? [LAUGHTER] pucky poor in that times you know? couldn't afford to get one made. But that certainly was in Stronsay, and that's the to prove it. [speaker005:] An and that had stopped by World War Two would you say? [William:] Oh aye, aye, stopped before World War Two I think. I don't know why it stopped, they had to get out of it you see? More modernized you see? Er there were tractors now for Peedie boys,. [speaker005:] As well as William I also spoke to Jim. [Jim:] in nineteen thirty and ninety thirty one I won the cup, I'd been twelve year old then. onto the sand here in Bay and then there seven site or plod laid off for every plougher that was there you see? And you had to plough that within a certain time. I think it was two hours for me I had to plough that one. And I was judged by the judges and [speaker005:] Was there an upper age limit that you could compete? [Jim:] Yes, there was. Fourteen I think was the limit. [speaker005:] How often did you manage to win it? [Jim:] twice. But you had to win it twice before it became your own property. So I won it twice. [speaker005:] Er do you have the cup yet? [Jim:] Yes I do. It was just like, just like looking at any ordinary cup standing in the black ebony stand, and er lions head in each side with rings in it's mouth. And it's silver cup. [speaker005:] Do you know how long the boys' ploughing matches went on for? When they stopped? [Jim:] in thirty six, somewhere thereabouts. Not ju exactly sure. And in the thirty five i think. [speaker005:] What sort of plough did you use for the competition? [Jim:] Iron ploughs made by a blacksmith. I tell you why, because he we he won the smithy window across the road there. [speaker005:] And what did you use for horses? [Jim:] Two boys. like a pair of horse,th they pulled the plough. I don't mind whether we used reins or not,th th they just Well I mean they knew what to do you see? In fact we had the two boys pulling we had th it just as near as possible to the proper thing. [tape change]

[Sandy:] Started with this device this is the thing I made it at the grammar school when I was working there. [Mike:] It's like a a wooden box with a glass lid and inside looks like perspex, is that right, perspex wheels [Sandy:] Yeah, that's right. [Mike:] Switches inside. [Sandy:] There's a a motor been on here, it was on to ring the school bells. [Mike:] That's like a a sort of electrically driven timer. [Sandy:] Yes, that's what it is, and in the grammar school they had biology wanted to have plants growing in the dark but provide a light for them. One plant had to get light for eight hours per day and the other one had to get light for sixteen hours a day, so another wheel at this end did this job when this went around so many times. [Mike:] Aha. Ah so that controlled the lights to your plants then. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Mike:] I see you've made several versions of [Sandy:] Yes, that's right. This one had a whole lot of switches on so it can be altered from outside without going inside. [Mike:] That was what looks like a satellite dish what on earth is this? [LAUGHTER] It's a very... [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah it looks like a satellite dish, it's only a yard in diameter. The focus of this is about fourteen inches from the centre and if you put a microphone here when this this thing is outside it's ideal for picking up bird song. You can pick up birds from a mile away. [Mike:] We'll have to have to get a few of these in Radio Orkney I can see. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] Yes it's quite good for long distance. It's ideal for birds with the high frequency voice, but for people they the speech is a bit lower in frequency and doesn't work quite so well. [Mike:] So you can't use it for eaves dropping. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] no [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Did you make this thing? [Sandy:] I had a satellite mirror found in a quarry, and took i used this It was a mould for this to get it a perfect parabolic shape. [Mike:] And it's made of fibre glass is it? [Sandy:] Fibre glass. [Mike:] Yes I see. And er underneath it here we have a a glass box, I see. [Sandy:] There's a mirror inside there. [Mike:] Frosted glass screen on it. [Sandy:] Yes. So when I take this out and pout this through the window it shines straight up and you can look at the clouds and you can tell which direction the wind is. [Mike:] Ah I see. Ah right so the the direction the clouds are moving in against this frosted glass screen [Sandy:] Yes. [Mike:] you can use as a [Sandy:] Just see them go you can't see it today when there's just one cloud. [Mike:] Ah yes it's continuous. A continuous cloud. [Sandy:] and you can tell by the speed they're travelling what sp speed the wind is. [Mike:] Aha. I see, so that measures the speed of them across the screen this way you can time it. [Sandy:] Yes, I had a seconds timer there as you can see. [Mike:] So the the pendulum you've got set up here you can use as a a timer against [Sandy:] Yes. [Mike:] that. It's a simple timer. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] Well simple minds can simple things. [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] I never had any education since I was fourteen so I used the very simplest things when I find the very simple things can do very complicated jobs. Yes. So on the bench here we have a a device on a a tripod, again, it has wheels on it where marked off in what looks like degrees. Am I right? [Sandy:] That's that's degrees yes. Aha. [Mike:] Two wheels, one on top the other and a What looks like an eyepiece to look to look through. What what's that for Sandy? [Sandy:] Yes, well, it's at at an odd angle, you noticed th that because we are in latitude fifty nine, so the centre of this has to look at the pole star. [Mike:] It's an astronomical device then, yes I see. [Sandy:] And er this th has to be thirty one degrees to the level, so that er you follow the stars as they travel around the sky, because they're always highest in the south and like the sun and the moon they're always highest when they're due south. So this is the same idea and if there's a star Something that I did see a wee while ago, I saw a f a light very close down to the horizon and I said I've never seen a star so bright way down there. So I looked through this device and er found what the reading it gave, so I went to my map and I found that that's where Mars should have been. So I ass assumed that this was Mars. When I got my telescope to look through it was gone. So it was on look for it later, so I traced it up and it was Mars. [Mike:] So you can use to identify stars [Sandy:] Stars. [Mike:] just from their position in the sky. [Sandy:] And er the sun doesn't always travel at the same speed it goes fast and slow so [LAUGHTER] we can also measure the [LAUGHTER] the sun. [Mike:] I see, so you take that top wheel off and you have another one underneath where alternative reading [Sandy:] And that's and that's in hours. [Mike:] Of course, yes I see. [Sandy:] And er the sun can be as much as nearly twenty minutes slow or fast. [Mike:] So you can adjust for the the differences there. [Sandy:] The sun is only at th the correct time four times in one year. The Earth doesn't take a circular path around the sun so it passes it quickly sometimes and slowly at other times. It makes the sun appear to vary in its time keeping. [Mike:] So you've bui built this machine to incorporate that error so you can compensate for that. Oh I see. [Sandy:] I canna look through the sun at it, but I see the the sh the shadow of the one on on the other. [Mike:] Ah yes, [Sandy:] eyepiece, it's painted white so it gives a sh shadow. And it also tells me how high it is in the sky. [Mike:] So it's a bit like a sextant almost in a way. [Sandy:] Oh well [LAUGHTER] aye [], I suppose. [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] It's an interesting machine. [] [Sandy:] This is the same idea over here. [Mike:] Oh yes [Sandy:] And the camera goes on there and a wee electric motor over yonder, which drives it around at fifteen degrees per hour, which makes it follow the stars as they move around the sky. [Mike:] Oh, so it's so it's for photographing the star and [Sandy:] Yes. Well it's a time exposure. If you take a time exposure of the stars with a static camera you just get streaks, because of the Earth's movement, and I should make the device follow the stars at the correct speed, you can get an awful lot of stars that's completely invisible to the naked eye. It picks up the very dim stars. [Mike:] So this this allows you to follow them along while the camera's shutter's open. [Sandy:] Yes, that's right. You can take an hour's exposure with this one. I've never done any more than fifteen minutes. [Mike:] Have you got any photographs that you've taken by this means? [Sandy:] Yes I have indeed. I took my early ones in black and white, but the later ones I took in colour and er I saw to one side of Orion what looked like the Plough. You can see the stars there are quite bright. I've looked with binoculars and I can't see them with the naked eye. These are so faint and they only show up because of the long time exposure. [Mike:] I see, so so a way of seeing stars that you otherwise would not be able to see at all. [Sandy:] You can't see. Here's the the Belt of Orion and the Sword. You can see the centre one is red. [Mike:] Tremendous. Is this just an ordinary camera you've used? [Sandy:] Just an ordinary camera. [Mike:] Thirty five millimetres? [Sandy:] Yes thirty five millimetre. [Mike:] Ha, gee you wouldn't have believed that was possible. [Sandy:] And this is the the picture of the moon. How big the moon appeared with this. [Mike:] It fills the frame, yes. [Sandy:] But er the only problem here is we're too low down and there's too much sh shimmer in the atmosphere, difficult to get anything really clear. [Mike:] I see, presumably this is why all the big observatories are near the equator, is that right? [Sandy:] Yes well, they get on top of mountains if possible to get rid of the shimmer. The moving hot and cold air. [Mike:] Now I'd I notice there's a an enormous telescope behind us here as well. What size of telescope is this? [Sandy:] Er it's er it's a ex W D lens, after wartime they sold these things they sold them in catalogues and I sent of for this one, and it's about a stone and a half in weight. [LAUGHTER] And er [Mike:] That's a size. [Sandy:] the glass is six inches in diameter and is a thirty six inch focus. I have another eyepiece on the end which is suitable for looking at the stars and planets. It's also a piece of ex W D equipment and gives a right-angled viewing and turns the picture right side up. Most astronomical telescopes view everything upside-down and er I drew two hundred lines to the inch inside this eyepiece. The lines are so close together that two of them can be seen crossing the planet Jupiter at any one time. The lines are about eight point eight inches apart at a distance of one mile. [Mike:] I notice we have a chart on the back of the door here as well a circle measured off in angles and er this is lovely it's got Venus [Sandy:] Yes. Well [Mike:] Earth, Mars and then it's measured off in [Sandy:] Saturn, Saturn is as far as we can see. [Mike:] This is already erect now to find the the planets and stars when you're using the telescope, yeah. [Sandy:] Yes well they would. [Mike:] Well brings us very very conveniently to your your first choice of piece of music Sandy, too is this [Sandy:] Yes [Mike:] part of the Planets Suite by Holst. [Sandy:] Yes. [music] [Mike:] astronomy God then Sandy? [Sandy:] Oh well it must be my before I was a teenager. And I very young days. Living on the farm we were quite isolated, we had no street lights outside, there were no lights Very many lights anywhere at that time. And we had very clear skies and showed up the s the stars quite brilliantly. I found a lens in an old box and I used, I got another two lenses, and I fitted them together in an a tube, I had no tubing but there was an old bicycle at the house and I cut up the frame and put one lens at the one end of the frame and the seat pillar, I used the seat pillar for focusing. And my pictures were upside down but I could see the rings of Saturn with it, which was more than what Galileo saw first when he looked, he thought there was two stars at either side of Saturn. [Mike:] If he'd had a bike he would have er done better then. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] We found then that the bigger the objective lens was the more light could be got and the bigger you could make it, so as I got bigger and got er the chance of making my own lenses and building up lenses of various kinds, I found that I could get quite a good magnification. [Mike:] How do you actually make a lens? [Sandy:] I got a porthole from the Fulforn when it was being sent off for being scrapped. And it was about ten inches in diameter. And of course I had to get another lens, a piece of glass about the same size, in order to grind it, because you grind the glass with another piece of glass with a grit in between. Grit and water. Carborundum powder and water. And you rub backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, and I ground like this for several hours every night, after I came home, for three months. [Mike:] That's a long project. [Sandy:] And that took the centre of the glass down by maybe a a one and a half millimetres. That was all of the glass that was worn away in that time. But er it did not do bad, got a fair good picture with it. [Mike:] Now we've got some interesting photos here now in this this album of people standing beside themselves [LAUGHTER] I would say []. [Sandy:] Ah twins, yes. [Mike:] How did you how did you achieve this? [Sandy:] Well er I had a lot of friends here and there, and when I've had a lot of photos to develop for them, and then when I got everything done, you felt a sigh of relief at getting it all done. So you tried then to do something to use up the rest of the developer. And there's one here with a a group of people and I found that a stone wall makes an ideal thing to trick photography with. Because you can join it anywhere and it doesn't look messy. [Mike:] Ah yes. I er see the the way the the two parts of the photograph are joined on the [Sandy:] I [Mike:] the stone wall. [Sandy:] I turned out the f the negative upside down to do the other half, which makes 'em look Keeps the [LAUGHTER] the group equally s h [Mike:] Yeah, it looks like a large family group. [Sandy:] four sets of twins. [Mike:] And over the page here we've got got some more. the Borry jungle this this photograph's called. [Sandy:] Yes. This was a a real life picture with great big trees and a real forest and it was done by It was a footpath through ferns, and the [Mike:] I see. [Sandy:] ferns are only about two feet high. Or rather less, but the jungle track through the centre helps to show you it's a a roadway, though it's only about a f a foot wide. So the camera was right down on the bottom. Now there are a few branches there, there's one that's lying kind of horizontal, it'll be an idea to set someone on top of that. So we have this in the next picture, and it was another one vertical, we got one to g grab a hold of it [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Mm. [Sandy:] lean on it. [Mike:] Yes er it looks either like tiny folk or enormous ferns. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Mike:] This is done in two exposures presumably? [Sandy:] Yes. That was done a different way from the other pictures. You actually take the peoples' photographs first, cut them out and plant them on the original. Rephotograph it. This got me into some problems too [LAUGHTER] with a chap in Braigh who was very fond of black Polled cattle. Knew a fellow somewhere in Evy that wouldn't be seen dead holding a black Polled cattle, so er he er came along to me with er farmer's weekly, and a black Polled cow on it, and gave me a photograph of this man. So [LAUGHTER] he wanted it me to make this man hold this cow. Anyway I had to photograph the man, I photographed the cow and I had to photograph a background. And I had to merge all these pictures together. [Mike:] It looks very convincing I must say, it just looks like a farmer [Sandy:] The [Mike:] holding the b the the halter or [Sandy:] feet of the cow was not in the original photograph so I had to go up to a a farm and ask for straw to hide the [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] [Sandy:] the the animal's feet. [Mike:] You went away with a photograph to show us. [Sandy:] Yes, and I never heard of this And there's another lady that brought me a picture with four generations in. But a fifth person appeared in the reflection of a window, can I remove them? So I had a shot at this, but if I cut it out that part of the window was black, it didn't look right, so i put a shade over it. Now it was a fairly white, it still [Mike:] Aha. [Sandy:] didn't look right. So Oh I say, I'll cut it out and make a wee hole and transport part of the wood work across the window. The window was completely boarded up, it took me a while to do that. The next thing I got was an order for twenty of them. I [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] [Sandy:] whole thing twenty times over. [Mike:] Well, what's your second choice of music then Sandy? [Sandy:] Well er [last dying piano chord] [Mike:] This is a photograph of you as a a young fellow walking the high wire. [Sandy:] Yes, That's right. [Mike:] Oh w where did you get this high wire to walk across? [Sandy:] Well this one here is a water pipe, it's er what? An inch and quarter or something in diameter. I found it in Hoy, and there's some deep gullies there. There's ditches where er s the water has run away all the boulder clay and left maybe a ditch, this one was nine feet deep. And I put balanced it out across this, and I set my camera down er down below, on a time exposure which runs off in about one minute, so I had one minute to run up the side of the thing and get out here and balance myself. I had another l pipe, piece of water pipe, which I used as a balancing device, but I found, with the watering pipe you are so stable you feel it's a shame to be seen holding on. [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] I say you don't look very stable to me up there, I must admit Sandy? [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] Aha. [Mike:] So you took the photograph yourself, as well? [Sandy:] More or less aye. There's er this other one here with a I carried a fish box out onto the wire and set it down and sat on it. I had no balancing pole then. [Mike:] I can see that. That looks like a bit of a balancing feat right enough. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] What led you to try this? [Sandy:] I don't know. [LAUGHTER] It's just something I just felt like doing and i couldn't have any real reason for doing it. [Mike:] Well I don't think there's any better reason than that. [Sandy:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] On this page we have the the Churchill barrier. This is er early stage of construction. [Sandy:] barriers were getting closed up and above water we were permitted to walk across. So I was still in Berry then and working at the grammar school, so we had to walk across all three causeways for some time. There was at th near the end or the middle, number two causeway and I was crossing there one day, and the tide was out and er the big ship that was along the causeway was very close to the s to the stones. And I saw a hole in the bottom at the side of it where they had blasted a hole in it in order to sink it. So I says I'll pop down and go inside to see what like it is. I had my camera with me and I saw there was a ladder up on the top deck and when I got up on the top deck it was quite a giddy height, not to be bit I looked at the mast then I climbed up the mast [LAUGHTER] up three quarters of the way up the mast and er the view from up there looked right down on the causeway. [Mike:] Oh, I see. I thought that was an aerial photograph some height up there. [Sandy:] we photographers go to daft places to get photos. At times, it was Leonard's top seller for about fifteen years. It's in books a few books have it in it. [Mike:] Well Sandy, we've only looked at a few of the things in your shed and a very few of your photographs but it's been fascinating. Thank you very much for your time. What's your third choice of piece of music then Sandy? [Sandy:] Well I'm not awfully good at music but my wife is very keen on music. What about the the Churchill barriers? [Mike:] Very appropriate I think very appropriate. [Sandy:] Yes I think that might be my. [tape change]

[Jean:] Quite a long time I would have start probably with more than thirty years ago, because me Mum always make cheese and I just thought making when I was still a girl at the school and since we came here and farmed on me own behalf well twenty six years we've been making cheeses here. [speaker002:] Is it all your own milk that you use for cheese? [Jean:] Yes we have our own cows and its all our own milk. [speaker002:] I've got a churn of milk. How do I go about making it into a cheese? [Jean:] Well when it comes in from the cow it's at blood heat, and e you put it through your strainer and then you drain it and er you leave it be and it coagulates, goes consistency of yoghurt, slightly thicker than yoghurt, and after that stood a certain time you apply heat then you warm it up and you stir it, you break up the curd, and the whey gradually rises to the top and your curds settles to the bottom. And again you leave it standing a certain time and you pour off your whey and take your curd in to a muslin and er hang it up and again more whey'll drain off cos it's hanging up. And after a a certain period again you break up that curd and then you pack your curd into your er cheese cokes then and er apply pressure. It goes in the cokes mid-afternoon you leave that until next morning and take it out, put in a clean muslin and turn it back in the coke and more pressure until the next morning. [speaker002:] It seems to be one of the things actually that people that are home on holiday to Orkney, you know, maybe you have lived here in the past and Orkney cheese is one of the things they want to take back with them, a farmhouse cheese. [Jean:] Oh yes er a local people coming home always like to take farmhouse cheese away and Orkney people go on away on holiday again like to take ones off to their friends and relatives in the south too. [speaker002:] Now I believe you're having your dairy overhauled at the moment. How how is this going to affect things? [Jean:] It shouldn't really affect things er a lot it just makes things slightly more convenient. There's been a few small alterations. I had a dairy before, it's just been updated a wee bit because I make slightly more cheeses than I used to make and it'll make it er easier hopefully. [speaker002:] What's your output of cheese? [Jean:] The season of the year makes a difference, presently I'll be making approximately eight pounds probably everyday. That will increase very shortly I'll have more milk. It'll probably go up by another three, four pounds and then later on er when the cows goes up to the grass I'll be making not quite double probably, but er quite a lot more than I do now up to maybe fourteen, fifteen pounds in a day. [speaker002:] How do you see things in the future then? [Jean:] Things can change very quickly, but presently the demand is very good. In fact it's increasing the demand exceeds the supply at the moment. [speaker002:] It's small round cheeses that you make. What's the reason for that? [Jean:] They're very popular with the tourists, I think they feel they are taking back a whole cheese as opposed to a portion cut off a bigger cheese. And some of the markets that I supply, it's the hotel and restaurant trade that some of them go to, they like the small whole cheeses. They can put the whole cheese out on the cheeseboard, again I suppose to just a portion going on the cheeseboard. And I have packaging specially for the small ones, it makes them easy for people to post if they want to post them off to friends. They're quite safe in their own packaging. Tourists that take them back they have the label on the box to say where they have purchased this cheese. It's a an attraction I think as well. [tape change]

[Edith:] From my country upbringing I can remember fields of blaggets less common now but I do know of it still being grown in Orkney. It was easier to grow in less fertile soil. Its finer straw is preferable for gloy as straw for the straw blagget stools was called, now called Orkney chairs. And there was grinnets not grown in any great quantity, but derived from the late sown seed oats. Perhaps to make use of the end dregs of a field where turnips had been sown. Still fresh and green at the back end, it could provide a juicy supplement to the diet of a early calving cow, or for the smallholder's animals newly brought in to the byre for the winter. Grinnets would be the forerunner of silage. To turn back the pages to my early memories of harvest time, on the smaller farms is to have opened a book on nostalgia. For in the mind's eye the harvest field is peopled by busy farm folk from the neighbourhood I knew. I can see the horses and even the timorous harvest mice scurrying through a forest of stubble. A sight that might have intrigued Professor. In fine weather it was pleasant to be in the harvest field, but as the season wore on lashings of cold or bleak shafts of wind driven rain made it disagreeable to handle the wet sheaves. Whether gathering after the scythe, or the reaper, or stoking the sheaves, clothes could become sopping wet. Long black shiny oilskins could blow about and still the slanting rain got in. Who said Orkney had horizontal rain? In stooks standing for too long in wet weather, the bottoms of sheaves might become moussed as dampness set in. Sharp corn skegs from the heads of bair could creep irritatingly up the inside of a sleeve, as I well remember. Green seeds of corn were termed corn ends. As some of the old Orkney words and expressions fall in to disuse, links in the valuable heritage that thurls us to our Viking ancestry are broken. They are much more than just quaint old fashioned words. A cold drying wind expressively called a yerdzook dried out stacks that were on the wet side. Straw ropes called symmons unwound from cloothes were tied round about these stacks or screws to protect the sheaves from the gales. Stooks would blow down and be set up to blow over again and wet heavy sheaves might have to be stoked over and over again. Tea and eatables brought in a big Orkney basket to the harvesters and eaten while seated in the lea of the stokes was a special treat. Menfolk lit up stubby pipes and soon the air was full of the pungent smoke of twist tobacco, I think it was probably called X X Boggy Roll, and many a yarn was spoken while they were thus enjoying their break. [tape change]

[speaker001:] Can I begin by asking you how [speaker002:] Yes you do please I'd rather [speaker001:] How. [speaker002:] you did [speaker001:] Yes. How do I address you? Is it Nurse? [speaker002:] Yes. Yes. That's right yes. Nurse or Mrs, which you like. [speaker001:] Yes. Were you born on Anglesey? [speaker002:] I was. In did you want to hear that? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] In. Primrose Place, and it's still there now. The little house [speaker001:] Were you born into a big family? [speaker002:] Yes. Five of us and we're all alive. [speaker001:] What did your parents do? [speaker002:] Erm well my father was a like a on a far a small farmer's son you see. And he was a man of all trade in the end because my grandfather's like that. He could do anything. But he did help most in the... with the graveyards in the end and he used to ring the bell in the church. He was a bell ringer for years. My father was. And my great grandfather he was a bookbinder. He's buried in. And er I used to think in the old days that bookbinding was a very common thing, but since I've grown er and gone through the world, I thought he was a very clever man. he's buried in and he was the only bookbinder round here. [speaker001:] Did you got to school in? [speaker002:] Yes. I went to school in till I was fourteen. [speaker001:] Did you enjoy school? [speaker002:] Yes I did I would have liked to have gone much farther but I couldn't. My grandparents said they couldn't afford it. But I think they could have afforded, just the idea of me leaving home. I'd have to stay in Holyhead for a few nights. [LAUGHTER] And no bike you see. [speaker001:] Is that how most children got to the school there? [speaker002:] Yes. And most er most of the children you see went from to Holyhead. there were no buses them days. They had to walk to Valley Station to the train unless their people could afford to buy them bicycles. So erm [speaker001:] Did you have any ambitions at school? [speaker002:] I did. I wanted to be a teacher. Or a nurse.... [speaker001:] So what did you do when you left school? [speaker002:] Erm well I went to Liverpool. I was promised that I could learn t I could be a nurse if I went and I went to the Bishop of Liverpool's erm household in Liverpool. Er I met them in when they were on holiday and that's how I got in. And she took to me and she took me to Liverpool and they were very good to me. I was there till I was married. I forgot about the nursing. I they were so good and I was so happy that the nursing went you see. [speaker001:] So what were you doing there? [speaker002:] Er well I was doing all kinds really there was a staff then and of servants but I was lo I was er looking after the old lady more than anything. And doing afterwards I did t er See the war came and they couldn't get people. People went to do ammunition and all that. See there's more money. So I erm took I I helped the parlour work. When the when the er what do you call him? The butler went off, there was no butler then so I really helped with the with the with the with the food and all that you know. I enjoyed it very much. I forgot about my nursing. And see good nice people visited you see, and they were always very kind. [speaker001:] Did you miss Anglesey? [speaker002:] Well no I didn't miss Anglesey at all because er my outlook was to get away and to do something different. You see. I was never homesick. [speaker001:] How long were you in Liverpool? [speaker002:] [whispering] Nineteen [] j from eighteen to thirty three, what does that come to? [speaker001:] Er fifteen years. [speaker002:] . Eighteen and ten, twenty years. [speaker001:] Twenty [speaker002:] Yes you were right, fifteen years. Yes. I was married in nineteen twenty three.... From the Bishop's Palace, in the Welsh church in Liverpool. It's not there now. A lovely Welsh church. And the Bishop married me there and the vicar and er quite a lot of people had come there from all over like because I was being marrying in the Welsh church you see, I didn't have a lot of And the Bishop married me, that was something for them to come. And I went to Liverpool to London for my honeymoon. My husband came from Hastings. [speaker001:] How did you get back into nursing? [speaker002:] Well I lost my husband in nineteen thirty three. It would be. In nineteen thirty three, my husband died suddenly. I don't want to go into that. And erm it's a sad, very sad tale. And then you see I gave up my home in Liverpool and came to Anglesey to my people. Well I wasn't happy here, I wanted my own place. And I wanted to be doing something so I went I went back to nursing. I went to do midwifery. I went to London for my training. [speaker001:] How long did that take? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] How long did that take you? The training. [speaker002:] It took two years. Because I took midwifery and I took a little bit of erm school nursing and general you know, so that I was capable take a district on Anglesey. I wanted to be on Anglesey because my son was at school by then you see in. He was only four and a half when his father died. [speaker001:] After your training did you come straight back to Anglesey? [speaker002:] Yes I came to back to Angl to Rhos-y-Bol. Well I did a little a bit round er like Llan not Llandudno. Rhyl and that area. because my superintendent from Anglesey, she was superintendent from as well you see. And then she was short of a nursing there and then I went there for a bit. There was a gap in Anglesey. [speaker001:] What was it like in Rhos-y-Bol? [speaker002:] Er quiet. People were very kind. Very kind indeed. They'd share anything with you. And erm er they relied on you, they depended on you. Always worrying you if there was something for the least. I think really they wanted just to get to the house something to talk about those days you see. The men were kind, very kind. Nobody'd let me wheel my bike or carry my bag. If they were about. There wasn't kinder people anywhere than Rhos-y-Bol. The er the older generation. They're going now you see. [speaker001:] Was it a lot smaller then? [speaker002:] Lot smaller then. Oh yes they've built oh dear dear, they've built houses and houses I don't know Rhos-y-Bol today. Although I only live three miles away you see. And I left Rhos-y-Bol when I retired because I felt I they'd have to have another nurse there, and you see the other nurse would never be able to enjoy the They would always be running to me a and it wouldn't be fair to another nurse. Erm they wouldn't she'd be alright for the first time you see, but they would get tired and then they'd be they'd be on to me. I mean it wouldn't be fair to anybody to start afresh there. So I left and came here. I bought this plot of land and built this bungalow on it. [speaker001:] How big an area did you have when you in Rhos-y-Bol? [speaker002:] It was quite four and half miles round the area you see. Five miles in some places. You see the area and I did on a bicycle you know.... Not like today. You went twice a day in those days to the mothers and babies. And you visit them for there was one time we visit them for fourteen day... daily but I don't think they do it now. And then it coul com cut down to ten days. But by the time you see I had the St David's Hospital opened by then in Bangor. See when I came to Rhos-y-Bol in nineteen thirty three, there was no St David's Hospital then, all the babies were born at home. And er there was only the workhouse at that they could go. And I oh I fought hard I never wanted a baby to be born in the wok house cos the word workhouse to me in the old it was a terrible name. And I wouldn't like a child of mine and I managed just two I had to send to the workhouse and a mother and baby died there, it was a bad case you see. And the other little boy was born there but I used to visit him, I see him on the district and it always came back to me fancy Humphrey's the only one Shouldn't mention name really. Was born in you know. It's a great thing to keep them from and to me in those days. Cos I used to remember w er Liverpool erm I can't think something Hill in Liverp Wharton Hill workhouse. Oh everybody dreaded going there. Things have changed, things have improved you see. [speaker001:] What did Anglesey people think about the workhouse? [speaker002:] Well in those days everybody was afraid and erm oh it was a blow if anybody had to go to the Valley. Valley was the name those days. Oh dear dear it was worse than I c anything I can think of. But today you see, the Valley Hospital is lovely. It's a different view altogether. I've been there and I find how happy people are there. It's really a treat to go there and see how things have changed isn't it. People are so kind today. [speaker001:] Did you use a bike all the time you were at Rhos-y-Bol? [speaker002:] I used the bicycle from nineteen thirty five... until nineteen fifty. And I tried to save up for a car cos my son was in the army. Yeah he was taken to the army from the Grammar School in Holyhead [cough] and I did want a car when he came home. I thought, I'd like him to think that I'd improved a little bit. And erm managed to buy a car and I paid four hundred and ten for it. Just think of it. [speaker001:] What sort of car was it? [speaker002:] It was a lovely little standard. And then I m I exchanged in twelve months cos I was lucky I had put my name in two places to get a car. You couldn't get in those days d during the war you see. And erm I managed to get one twelve months after and that was an Austin ten. That was a great car we thought you see. The Austin ten and I had that when my son came home from the army. So he taught me to drive see and It was much easier then you see with a car. Then th they added to my district then again. The Rhos-y-Bol practically finished. Cos you went to some much bigger area you see. So i did a little bit of here and there in Rhos-y-Bol, relieving different places after after retired really for a couple of years. [speaker001:] How many districts were there? [speaker002:] Well when I started I'm sure there was about twenty. And we we see we'd only have these small areas see. See there'd be Amlwch, Rhos- y-Bol, Well now it's one area see the lot of it. And then there's Menai Bridge, and nearly one there's Menai Bridge was one, was one. Then the area, that's right, there's three or four areas that way again you see. [speaker001:] What was your most common sort of problem? [speaker002:] Common problem? Getting about I think. See the weather you see was bad if you had it bad but I I kept well in health considering you know. And you know people were very good. See people didn't have cars, and if it was now, they could only help me by bringing a horse to meet me or erm or a tractor if they half way. And then perhaps we could then perhaps they could somebody would shovel the snow and it was very hard in the Winter you know, some places. Perhaps you could c come from you see, but you wouldn't be able to come near Amlwch or you could get to Amlwch and you couldn't get to. They were h hard times you know. And there were no telephones you see when I first came. Didn't get a telephone till nineteen well I couldn't tell you really. I was years without a telephone in Rhos- y-Bol. [speaker001:] How did people get in touch with you? [speaker002:] Well they had to fetch me. They had to come see. In their own way. With a bike mostly, then I'd go with them on the bike see. But the t we did have a telephone to the post office when it first came. And then people were making use of that. But the post office people didn't like it again. They had to come, give me my messages you see. People left messages but that wasn't right again. So they didn't like telephones. [LAUGHTER] Then er the county then had to give us telephones. But really it was it years without. [speaker001:] What was the prelavent case you had to treat? Was it usually just childbirth? [speaker002:] Well it was erm... I don't think I can remember.... Bleeding you know what do you call. What do you call it now. It was the babies you see that they were Well you had to have the doctor to you. I only had to call Mr once. To a case. And he was the superintendent of Angle started you see, St David's Hospital. And he came once to me on the district to me I don't know he went to others. [cough] And called him. It was a case of right in the face. Post parting haemorrhage. And anyway he'd survived. And we took the mother to Bangor next day in the ambulance. Oh it was a terrible place to get the ambulance into. It was in the fields outside in the bogs there. And people just come here. And there was an old lady there and she fell down and broke her arm, we had a terrible night of it. But she survived and she lived and brought her children and they left to be in England again. They were English people. [speaker001:] What was your most unusual case? [speaker002:] Unusual case? [LAUGHTER] Oh what shall I tell you now? Well I've had cases in the bus you know. Babies in the bus has been born. I've had them born in the car on the way... the the mother have come to see me the father has brought her to see me thinking that if she could just see me she'd be alright. But anyway the baby's been born in the car before he got home. [cough] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] It's a scream isn't it. They're happy days you know. Happy days and the money was small but still, don't worry. [speaker001:] Did that did that get better as time went on? [speaker002:] Oh yes. Yes. Yes, when it first came, it was only two pound a week. And I had to pay my rooms out of that. Five shillings. Out of that you see and my insurance and all that isn't it. And it wasn't a lot you see. But erm I was lucky mind. People were comfortable and I could always go and get something I wanted. And pe people were very g farmers those days. They were farmers those days, they were you know people with feeling. You see today it's the men servants of the old farms that are farmers today. See the old farmers they were very generous. What they had, was yours. Potatoes,car any anything they had, butter and milk, you never came from a farm in the old days without something in your hand. When you were the district nurse. And the minister used to get the same. The minister was well looked after those days to. We were the we were the poor ones weren't we. [speaker001:] When did that change? Was there a sort of point when it all changed? [speaker002:] Yes well it changed see when the war came. When the er when the war came, this last war it would be wouldn't it. Erm and people had been paying insurance i it changed then cos some of the farmers could go on their pension they'd been paying this new scheme you see. And then the younger generation took the farms on. That's when it changed. The farming changed all together. And our money was better by then. I think I was getting nearly five pound a week by then. Well er today see it's my pension is three times as that. More. When you think. So I was paying my superann you see. I always paid that, it's a good thing I've done it you know. Otherwise you see that helps on my pension today. In one way it's a great help. But I suppose if I hadn't got anything I'd get it from somewhere. I find those that haven't got anything are just as well off today. [speaker001:] Did you have a union?... [speaker002:] Well I suppose you would call it a union wouldn't you. Erm the midwives... the midwife had erm Now what did you call it? It was like a union for the midwives you see. Er the nurses had but we didn't we more district midwives on the district you see. the things changed and after that.... [speaker001:] When you first arrived at Rhos-y-Bol, were you taking over from another nurse? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Did you take over from another nurse? At Rhos-y-Bol or were you the first there? [speaker002:] Yes I did yes. The nurse had just got married. The district was only twelve months old. She'd only been there twelve months. [speaker001:] Did you find it hard to get accepted? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Did you find it hard to get accepted? [speaker002:] No I didn't. They were ve no they were very good they were. They were pleased to have a nurse you see cos they hadn't had a nurse. The f the nurse before me was the first one. Only they didn't know how to treat a nurse.... Er it was all new to them you see. They thought Seemed to think you were on duty morning noon and night. They's come to the door any all time you see. But it didn't matter as long as you could help isn't it. You got used to it. get bad tempered sometimes but then [speaker001:] Were there any superstitions around? Did people still use folk remedies? [speaker002:] No I don't think so.... And I don't think so really.... Can't remember anything like that. [speaker001:] What was Anglesey like during the war? Did the war affect [speaker002:] Oh yes it did. Cos we had evacuees here you see er during the war. there was plenty to eat here you know. You see they came from Liverpool a lot of them. But they used to get very lonely.... When they came, that was the trouble. But they used to I had my house packed to the wall. Friends from Liverpool I opened my house to. They would come see perhaps for two or three weekends you know. Then they's go back to Liverpool. When it starts in Liverpool again, they'd come back again. I le let my an open house to my friends from Liverpool. Friends that had been kind to me. Then they got very in er after two years after the was had started erm South of England got it badly you see. So my in-laws were South of England people and I opened my house to them. They came for the first lot for nine months, then they went back. They came back again, they were here nearly two years. My in-laws. From Hastings that was you see. So I was I I had my house full all through the war. [speaker001:] Did the evacuees mean a lot more work? [speaker002:] Well I didn't work, I opened the house for them and they looked after themselves. I never fed them or they were to look after themselves. There was a bed for them you see. And a room to eat. And er Liverpool people were very good, very kind, they always had a meal for me things if they could. And I used to get vegetables you see in from the farmers. And very often if anybody was killing a pig or anything, I'd always get a piece of erm pork something like that. Not the people were very kind in Rhos-y-Bol. The old Rhos-y-Bol people. [speaker001:] Did that change after the war? [speaker002:] Changed after the war, yes. It was the new lots growing up then you see. They've been brought up different way haven't they. More. You see there was milk cheap and different things after the war for them you see. To babies had this dried milk and some of them got it cheap and I suppose there was no work and then they were poor weren't they. They used to pay me fifteen shillings a week. If I had my case at home without a doctor. And they thought that fifteen pound was an awful lot of money. But if they had a doctor you see, they'd have to pay a pound. So I used to try and manage. And I did too, managed very well. Considering. [speaker001:] Were most of your patients Welsh? [speaker002:] All Welsh those days. After the t after the war you see. But when the war came you see they came as evacuees a lot of them and then they never went back. And it got on from that you see. And then er people left the towns and their their relations. I suppose Rhos-y- Bol is all English today. i don't know who lives there. See all those houses they built. [speaker001:] In your time as a district nurse, what were the greatest changes you noticed? [speaker002:] See it's the war that changed everything didn't it. The war changed everything. And then went.... And then the land you see they worked more on the land didn't they. The men did, farming took er more men didn't it. And then the camps you see, during the war, you see people were out of work during the war e before the war in Rhos-y-Bol. Be sitting on the wall by my a lot of the men. But you see the camp when the war came, opened somewhere in er near Valley and everybody got a job. And a lot of them went away after. W So er things changed completely didn't it. Everything changed after. [speaker001:] What about on the medical side? [speaker002:] Oh the medical side was wonderful. We've had wonderful doctors in Amlwch. Sir Thomas, oh he was a marvel. He was a dear father and he had two sons, doctors. Marvellous sons he had again. And then Dr, he was a genius, and he was a born in and I knew h my family and his family knew one another. And you know I adored Dr, he was a wonderful man. He was kind, didn't say much and worked hard. He died young in about sixty. A man that understood the people. We were very fortunate and we're still fortunate. We've got lovely young doctors here now. A Dr from he was Sir Thomas's son you know lovely. So kind you know, nothing was too much for him. [speaker001:] Is there still a district nurse as such? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Is there still a district nurse as such? Or is it now just er surgeries? [speaker002:] Oh no no they have district nurses now. Cos Dr offered me the the other day, a nurse to do my leg. We're awfully fortunate here. You've got a team of young doctors again, to see me. I think they're marvellous. We're most fortunate I think. I think the young people today, they're very kind you know. It's only an odd one I think. But mind you, people can be awkward too can't they. Erm it isn't the doctors you see that are awkward. But people can be very awkward. I only found about one say a couple of awkward people, all the twenty years I was in Rhos-y-Bol. But they were the same family the same Same people all through the years. The awkward ones. [speaker001:] Why were they awkward? Just for the sake of being awkward? [speaker002:] I don't know, they demanded more you see. Er they wouldn't look for you when you were there, but if you'd gone out somewhere, oh they'd be looking for you. They wanted to cause trouble. For there were always something you see with them. Er only one or two of them. And I think they're still there in Rhos-y-Bol. I don't think they'll get rid of them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] They'll grow up and a little bit'll come from somewhere over there. Mm. Nothing gives me more pleasure now and if I go to the to the libraries and a young lad I say a young man like you will come to me and say, Hello Nurse, How are you? I's very well thank's. How are you? He said, You remember me don't you? Well not quite, I said. But oh yes. And er you know, it's lovely really to see them and to think they remember you still isn't it. Mm. I used to shout at them you know. Mm.. My son used to Don't shout at them mother, he said. Well, I said, they are naughty. They were running round my house they were. So this night my son said to me, Mother, he said, when those boys have grown up men, do you know what they'll be saying? I said, No. They'll be saying, Do you remember a a big fat woman living in that their house, with a white apron running after us. They'll remember you like that you know, he said. It don't worry me how they remember me. [LAUGHTER] [cough] [speaker001:] Mm. Do you still stay in touch with the other district nurses? [speaker002:] Oh yes, but there's very few of them, you'd be su I'm eighty four you see. And erm you see most of them have k very few of them. I Nurse hers was lovely to work with. And Nurse Williams into the clinic to see her, they're much younger than me you see. And they're lovely young people they were to work with really. It's only those two now I think. Because you know a lot of that had died you know. They were A lovely little nurse we had in me and nurse Williams from. She was very [recording ends]

[John:] Just before m w when my father and mother when they were courting before they they got married to with, yeah? [speaker002:] Yes fine, okay. Right. Off you go then.... [John:] Well my father was a farmer working at home with his mother who was a widow in. And my mother, she was a dress maker or an apprentice dressmaker if that is the correct term. And er they were courting and er my grandmother she was renting the the Park Front they called it in, Plas, in where the agricultural college is now. Er were the name of the gentry who were living in in in the place. And erm my father and another lad who was working out in the had to go Called Michael, had to go down every evening to pump water for the the animal. There was no running water in the fields, only a shaft with a pump. Then they had to go and pump water for the stock. And the ambition of all the farm lads then was to get on good terms with the maids in in the Plas because after the gentry, they'd had their dinner, the maids could invite whoever they liked into the cellar and saloon for supper. And erm my father and Michael had got to know the maids in in the Plas but Michael had grabbed the the the the good looking of the parlour maid and my father had to make do with the cook. And well, it's not nice to say that a girl is fat these days, but she was all ample proportioned we'll put it like that. And she was called Tiny. But it wasn't to be the for the friendship with Tiny that my father got to have the rattling good supper that that they provided in in in the servants room. And he'd be there once or twice and then on the Wednesday evening as was his custom, he went down to to the village, he had a date with my mother and there she was standing by the shop in the square and when she saw him coming down she turned and said,, she said and swirled her skirts round. Go back to your Tiny, she said, and off she went home. Well my father wasn't giving in so easy. And then h instead of walking home from the chapel on Sunday night with my mother, he started walking home with her father. My grandfather, Thomas, he was a a carpenter. And the were they lived, it was on a a bit of a rise about the square in and he was a very keen gardener. His curtain could be seen from the square and it was something worth looking at. And that was his pride and joy. And then my father became a very keen gardener and asking Thomas, How do you do th this and how do you do that? Well my boy, said the old man, It would be easier if you were to come over you see, for me to show you, than try to tell you here. So my father went over on the Monday evening and after such a a young man paid such interest in the garden and paying so much compliments, Well you can't go home without coming in for a cup of tea. And that is [LAUGHTER] how he he he got on good terms with my mother again. [] In. And he went duly they got married and very fortunately there was a little of twelve acres just in the bottom of the field adjoining. Called. And the that is where they started their married life. My father working at home with his mother and farming this l twelve acre holding and my grandmother erm sub-letted the the park for him. He was doing a bit of dealing as well. We'll have a chat about the old dealers later. Doing a bit of dealing and er keeping the stock he was buying and selling in this twelve acre park in. Well it was quite a change for my mother from being a dressmaker to being a a well a smallholder's wife. She had no idea about milking or anything, but she very very soon got used to it. Erm but the most unfortunate thing that Old Edward the the old chap who owned the place he was living in part of the house and Old Jane, his housekeeper, my mother she could bake bread and wash, her mother had taught her that, but it was making butter that was the problem. And old Jane said, Don't you worry my girl, er I'll make the butter for you. And my mother, they were keeping six cows there after churning, old Jane made the butter and er taking it to to erm Mrs from who used to buy my grandmother's butter my my mother took her stock as well on the Thursday to market. But the following Thursday Mrs said, Well I'm very sorry my dear, I can't accept your butter because last week's lot didn't keep. Old Jane hadn't take enough trouble to make it proper and wash all the buttermilk out. And it had gone bad. [speaker002:] Ah. [John:] My mother she cried oh she did she cried all night. After going to bed that night. She was so insulted you know. A young farmer's wife having her first batch of butter er rejected. And erm She was determined that she would have a go her own, the following week. And the following Wednesday, she just didn't know how to tell the old lady but it's odd how fate takes a hand occasionally. The old lady was er opening the the the not a just what we call the chamber, er the the downstairs bedroom. Opening the window, and somehow or other, the the sash it fell back, caught both her hands and jammed her finger. And there she was crying and shouting in there. Well my mother was very very sorry that the old lady had hurt her fingers but th on the other hand she was very very pleased that she couldn't make the butter. And from then on, er there was never a hitch at all, my mother was considered to be one of the best butter maker i in the vicinity. And as I had told you before on the previous er chat we had, how my father took over er when when I was two years old we moved up. His mother gave up farming and he took things over. And for the first five years of my life, I just led a very lonely life with only the my grandmother and my parents and the farm men. And I was v the and my grandmother, they had got me hooked on horses then. Not realizing that they were pr preaching about the glory that been. And I would be always be with John in the stable and I got until I got into er some danger walking er underneath a horses legs and he'd he'd send me out banned me from the stable and shut the door. Then for a day or so, I would be the cow man's mate. When I was with the cattle I always wore my the cap on the side of my head. That was way the co sign of a carter wearing his cap right on the side of his over his ear. [speaker002:] Was it? [John:] But the cow man he wore his cap w with the peak over h er er the back of his head. Back to front, cos he'd be carrying a lot of of hay on his back and that was to stop the hay seed, going down between it shirt and his skin. And then I'd be wearing my cap back to front for a day or so. Working with with the with the cow man, but I very soon got tired, I'd be begging to be allowed back into the stable because the horses were my first love. Well when I was about five, one morning, my father fixed a cushion over the back bone of the bike. That was the way we travelled then. Practically nobody had a car in at the time. And then er tie a cushion over the back bone of the bike and have me sitting er on on this cushion on the f bike in front of him. He had we started out somewhere I had no idea where we were going, until we arrived at this big building with a high railing surrounding the yard and a crowd of children shouting and playing in the yard. It was then that I realized that he was going to leave me on my own. In this building. And I had never been away from home because er too far from the village. I had never had been playing with other children. And when I realized this I started kicking and crying. And he said, Well what would you prefer, go to school quietly or come with me over the hedge to have a spanking. Well both are awkward, I said, but I will stand a light spanking if I can come home with you after. But then, Miss the I learned later she was the infant's teacher, one of the the kindest, noblest er teachers imaginable, she came out. Er never you mind the children, she said, you go home, I'll take charge of him. And she got hold of me in her arms and carried me kicking and screaming into the school. And I was very upset for the first day, then I started settling down. But then Miss see couldn't move out of my sight, she was the only friend I had amongst all these strangers. And I wouldn't leave her side. and one day she said, Now then John I want to go to the other school to Mr, the schoolmaster to get a book. Don't you move from your seat. And she got about half a dozen of the strongest boys from standard one to stand guard at the door. But as soon as she was out I dashed like a bulldozer through these other boys and dashed out into the bottom of the yard where there was a a certain little building in the bottom of the yard, and I opened the door, and there was Miss sitting on the throne. I said to her, Ah I thought that you were going Why did you lie to me saying that you were going to get a book. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] But eventually I settled down. Erm to to the work and I kept er going you know like I I didn't dodge I didn't miss school. And I suppose I was an average sort of of of pupil. As we the time went on. And when I went over to standard two, Miss was the name of the teacher with the the middle classes. And she had a custom she we had to have a book called observation book. None of us had any idea what observation meant, but we had to write down a sentence or something we had noticed on our way to school. Which was a very good thing and what children of today miss when they're being whisked on a bus to school. They have no chance to notice or see anything erm and make them observant and looking out for things. In the spring when the f the daffodils and and the snowdrops started coming, and then there'd be bird's nests and all the different flowers, the farmers would start sowing, cultivating, mares would have foals, they had the harvest. There were any amount of things you could write about in Summer. But in the depth of Winter say, er from November up to after Christmas, there were very very few things you could notice and erm goodness knows how many times I fell back on he was one of the last persons to be churning with horsepower. You know, a horse turning round and round in in what they called a horse power. A long pole and it worked a lot of cog wheels and the shaft going through to the dairy to turn the churn. And er I had to fall back very often just write, I saw Mr follow the horse in in in that that churning power. I had to fall back on that many time. And erm oh the games we used to have. Whatever was going on in the village at the time when say the threshing machine was going round. We played at threshing and er shifting the thresher from farm to farm we had been w watching with horses then. And the the way was to get the heaviest boy he would the be the the threshing machine machine. And the second boy would be the the shaft horse and the other children catching hold of each other 's jerseys pulling. And we had seen the horses er er struggling and kicking Strange horses. And then that would happen and very often I've seen the the the the shaft horse having kicked the thresher in his leg, had the two fighting. Breaking the whole thing up. And then we used to be playing top, we'd a top right round the village, see how far we could go. And then playing a a hook, bowling a hook with a sort of a long hook to An iron hoop or hook it would about two foot six in circumference. And see how far you go with that. And then we'd be playing marbles. The yard then it wasn't tar just a loose surface. Then we're twist a hole with the heel of our boots, and everybody t trying to get their marbles into this hole and then whatever, if you could get your you whatever you won you could keep. And er there would be a an Eisteddfod, a competitive meeting. In in the village and then we used to have that at dinnertime. There were no school dinners then of course. All the children who were living far away, they brought a sandwich and a flask with them and eating in the desk in the classroom. And we'd have this competitive meeting and there would be a chairing ceremony erm and it's amazing the r the tidy little poems that er some of the children made then you know, children under fourteen. Some of them were a bit earthy wouldn't be very proper for me to repeat here. And they wouldn't sound the same er in English, they were Welsh poems of course. But it's amazing ho then we'd have a. Where one lot would be the hare he'd start about ten minutes before. This was during the the dinner hour. And all the rest of use would be hounds chasing after him. And maybe we'd be oh a long distance away from the school when we heard the schoolmaster blowing the whistle. And we'd be pouting away and arriving about five minutes past one and then [LAUGHTER] we'd be in for trouble then []. Because we were late for the afternoon lessons. Erm I don't know if I told you before, I hated any sort of games. No ball games or what we called drill which was erm P T you call it now. But I had been er made a mon I think I told you this before, a monitor and I used to dodge all these sort of things and erm I used to go after I'd been putting the books out for the next lesson, I could go to the library and I used to sit down and read. And I think that is why er er I acquired my taste for it, still I read a lot. And that was the way it went until I was eleven. And then there was a scholarship class then. You had to go sit scholarship to go to the county school we call they called it. And this was the the school master had a special class and he used to keep us in after school to have extra lessons. But I just didn't want to go, it was to my grandmother and old John they used to say, Oh no, you don't want to school, you're supposed to stay here at home. Working w with your father. My mother was the only one was keen for me to have some sort of education. But on the morning Saturday morning when the exam was being er sat in the county school in I was very very ill, too ill to get up until about eleven o'clock when it was too late. And then I missed my chance and then I had only had the little primary school in until I was fourteen. And well that's about the the erm well a rough story of my school days I think. I was average with my lessons. And not the worst and not the best, just about average. But the I offended the schoolmaster very much not sitting this exam because erm his record depended upon how many pupils he could get to pass this exam. And if he wanted a promotion to go to a better school. Erm the inspectors used to come round and it was the number of pupils he managed to get into the county school that added a lot of points to his record. And then he was very er well now I'm sorry after he'd put all the hard work with me, he was very very annoyed and disappointed that I had let him down so. But we got over it and I finished my school at fourteen and came back to work at home. At. [speaker002:] How did you how your m mother er come to terms with the idea that you weren't going to go to the county school? [John:] She was very very disappointed. But there was nothing she could do about it then and it was too late. But she made certain that my sister who was six years younger, she made certain that she went to the county school. She became a teacher later on. And erm my my mother my father was neutral about the whole thing. He didn't didn't take side one one way or another. He was neutral. But my mother was very keen and she was very disappointed because I had missed out. I suppose if I had gone to school, my life would be completely changed. But I have no regrets. I left led I would say an uneventful life, but I've been very happy you know, ups and downs. Never very rich. And n no great heights and no great depths either. D depths either. Just sort of a a medium eventful life. I have no regrets really. Nothing nothing to worry about I was I was happy leading my own erm quiet little life you know. And that is how I have got along for the last sixty six years. [speaker002:] When you became the [John:] The yes at home. Doing all the odd chores, helping a lot. And the women in the house, peeling potatoes, getting the coal, carrying water. Erm I used to carry a lot especially in in Summer. Erm carry all the water from a shaft in the bottom of the field for all the the animals as well in in into the and all the pigs and the calves. And er when I was Well before I was fourteen, and I believe that is why I stoop so much now. My my s young bones they've been pulled down with carrying these er er all these pails of water. [speaker002:] How far did you How far aw w w away? [John:] Well, down the bottom of the field you know, it was a a fairly big field. And there was a a path which had been trodden back and forth down to to this er shaft with a pump on it. We had to carry in in Winter we had the rainwater off the roofs which filled two brick cisterns for the livestock. But in Summer those were dry we had to carry all the water then. When the men were out working in the field, I was left in the yard erm I helped with feeding the milking the cows, feeding the calves and the pigs. And helping the my mother. When I l left school, my mother didn't have a maid in the house shortly after that. I was doing the most of the peeling potatoes and getting the coal and the firewood. And laying the table, washing up the dishes. And churning and the carrying water for er for to for for the household and needed a lot of water when you were churning to to wash the the butter properly. And when my mother was baking in a huge ovenware basin, then she'd have the the erm the flour and the the erm what do you call it that made it rise? [speaker002:] Yeast? [John:] The yeast yes that's the word. And then she put had some warm water and er she had to have it to the proper consistency and then she'd have a a bucket of water w standing by her side with a a jug. And once she'd had the her arms in the dough, I had to stand by her side just to feed a drop of water gently. And I remember the first time, I poured a whole jugful of [LAUGHTER] water in. Without realizing I was lucky that her hands were stuck in the dough she w she would have given me a thick ear you know for for for doing that []. And er anyway later on I used to er go out into the fields with the men. Oh another job that the. The men would be working out in the fields in the Summer. Then they used to have their which was a cup of tea at ten in the morning and then having their tea at four. Out in the fields. And that was part of my work. A big erm pitcher full of tea and then a basket tied on my back with the sandwiches and and the cake of scone my mother used to back more often. And another basket in my hand with with the cups. And I used to to carry out their meals to the men, and they used to be eating out in the field then. And the dogs would be sitting, staring up in their faces. They used to throw an odd crust to to the dogs. [LAUGHTER] And er that was the way. That was my my life. Until later on. I became a horseman myself. And we had another. [speaker002:] W w w when did a person or when did you stop being stop being a? [John:] Well when I was about sixteen say. And then w that was when I were big enough in in in the hay and the corn harvest to er [cough] be in charge of the carts. Be able to make a load and strong enough to pitch it into the stack, that was the problem. And making a load of hay especially, you had to work it, roll every pitchfork you had, roll it and set it properly so that you knew as you now then you must have numbers on them so you know how to unravel that lot. Every erm pitchfork must come out one You can't start fighting and and pulling it against the grain otherwise you you would be in trouble. So every pitchfork used to come out er one after another as if you had numbers on them you know. Came out in layers. As it wasn't so heavy but that was an art, making the load. So that's and you said, if you erm don't er sweat a little in making the load, you will sweat a tremendous amount when you were busy pitching it into the into the stack. [speaker002:] S so was that was that considered to be particularly skilful then? [John:] Oh it was it was yes, some people were considered to be very very good at building a load. They said it was like a box you know, and they could up to tremendous heights, putting I don't know how many layers. When we first started, erm erm only a tiny amount just er sort of an untidy lump on the centre. Er of the ca There were there was a a frame which stretched out the carts. Bigger on the bo you know the the of course. And then y when you came into the stockyard with a Caw, Caw,li like a a crow saying it was just something like a crow's nest. just an untidy lump. That was how they used to insult someone who had a [LAUGHTER] and untidy load you know. And er that hurt and that made you much more determined to improve and be able to make a proper load as quickly as possible. [speaker002:] W [cough] At this time,w w would you be having help from other farms? [John:] Yes, yes and you used to do a lot of sharing er one f u farms helping each other. That was quite common in those days. Er w w w well common. [speaker002:] W w would people go out of their way to seek to find someone who was particularly skilled and with building a load and did they take [John:] Well you couldn't er the men were hired on the farms for for a term of six months you know. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And some of those well like in every other trade were better than others. Erm the erm the erm periodical men who used to come over harvest their job was to pitch it up in the field. Er they they didn't go out with the cart, just with a regular who used to go out with the with the horses and carts. Then you had a a spare man what you sent over the harvest, which you hired for a a month of occasionally they only used to come by the day. There were some er farms say of fifteen or twenty acres which wasn't quite big enough to make a living. And then these other men they used to be sort of a freelance, working a day here and a week there. They used to do what little chores they had in the morning and then again after their wives did most of it. And then they did the the heavy work erm in the in the morning and in the evening. And they weres those were like er a freel we called them freemen. And n not hired in one farm for six months. And mostly those were er married men who had a small place of their own which wasn't quite big enough to to keep them full time. And it was er er too big again for them to b become tied in one place for for a whole six months. [speaker002:] Were they er were they Would they be treated in any d different was say er er people who had their own farms would they [John:] No. No. But er if they were just working for a single day, it was long day up till ten o'clock at night in a harvest you know. And erm their their wages were a bit higher. Th they they demanded a higher wage er for erm just because Er m a man wasn't too dear if it was a good er harvesting day, a man wasn't too dear at any price. Cos without him you couldn't get your harvest in and tomorrow it might be raining. So nobody grumbled at all about paying an extra er bit for for these men. Cos it was good to have them when you were pushed when you had a lot of of work to do. Of course the regular men they were kept on or when if it was a rainy day when they couldn't go out and just do some odd jobs in the building say, when it was a a rainy day. So it was a sort of a give and take. Some days er they worked longer hours and harder work and there were other days which er which erm they couldn't do anything much, just potter around in the buildings. And erm but with a man coming in over the harvest, they were working hard and long hours every day and they demanded and they deserved a higher wage. [speaker002:] Was there any sort of understanding that part of the wages would be pain in food, anything like that? [John:] Oh the food was included. Nobody er erm or it was nobody thought about it li that was taken for granted. N nowadays I hear erm or the lads who have been they go out They've been working with contractor and they say how different it is when your mother was alive, everybody who came here they they used to join us for their dinner. You know the the the odd men. But now we go around farms, nobody ever ask us if we want a cup of tea that's gone out of out of practice now. And er very few men live in and er nobody er think of offering them a meal. they've got to carry their own food. You know contractor's men. but in those days it was n nobody thought i you know it was the done thing. Nobody thought of anything it was just everybody coming in for their meals. [break in recording] Oh a great help to sandwiches and a sit down meal at dinner at table with the family, it was far better than a dry sandwich eaten in the barn. [speaker002:] Er can you ever remember any what might be called, failed harvests or d d difficult harvests? [John:] Oh yes yes. Yes. Erm remember the hay we would be turning it w with pitchforks you know, and erm not a well goo drying day but you had to risk turning it and hoping that it'd be dry but er it would be raining again the following day. Yes I've seen hay spoilt but you had to make do with it. You couldn't do anything else. And I've seen the corn harvest again, the the sheaves growing green out it stook. The the the the grain sprouting. And the sheaves getting stuck together er sprouting and getting stuck yes. I've seen that happen too. And I remember hearing a story, er erm it was just they'd got an old farmer he had a field of hay, just ready to cart and just as they were getting the horses, it came down to to rain and they were all sheltering in the barn, and the said, More rain, more rest. What did you say? said the old farmer. More rain, more grass, said the little fella. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Quick thinking. [John:] Yes. Yes. Yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And another job we had to do erm especially on a rainy day, ready for the worst. Er we had no hay barn then, then you had to thatch the the stacks. And you had to make what we called straw. Well er you could see the One erm wooden erm turner on the Winter there now. You see that n what n erm You you see it out the window there. [speaker002:] Erm oh yes here it is. [John:] Yeah, that. Then we used to have two of those. [speaker002:] A clamp like a [John:] Y yes. Used to have two and er had a a bit of a rope round middle and two then There'd be two men sitting in one end of the cow shed. You'd ha you'd have it fixed two of them fixed like this on a a bit of a erm er straw rope. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] There were two of them. Then be backing and turning it round like that. Two of them like this. And then there'd be two men in one end of the of a long cow shed. They had the straw which had been er pulled out even previously. And then they would be feeding the straw, making these straw ropes. Two of them. And then I as the would be turning round and round and backing right down the cow shed and the calf pen which was oh about sixteen yards length in all. And then after they had reached the other end, erm one of the men would go and stand in the middle of the two and the and the other sitting down. And we'd start I'd just turn with my right hand to join both ends of the rope and then we would be turning again. And the m th chap in sitting in the top, he'd be turning round and the other one would be walking down slowly backwards er grabbing a rope wi to to join the two to make it into a a double rope. To to to put over the stacks. [speaker002:] Ah. How would you start them off them, straw? [John:] We Jus Ha a length of them, put it around this thing like that, and then when you started twisting, it would have a They'd be feeding more That was a quite an art again, feeding more and more straw into it you know, as I backed along. And then twisting it round and round. It was an art to give just the right amount and that it wouldn't break. And I remember we had two men once, one used to keep his hand very very tight, squeeze it hard and the other used to make a very big, loose, untidy, whiskery sort of a rope. Well to keep his rope tight, I had to pull on the other, and the other chap would jerk me back. Don't pull, he said. Then I was going slower to suit his Well the other fella his rope would be dragging on the ground then you know, it was difficult to to to get the two to cooperate together. That was a a job on a rainy day. And then I used to the to erm coil them round. There'd be a big pile of them ready for erm for thatching the stacks. [speaker002:] And then how would you do that then? [John:] Well after you know the the stack would be a bit untidy straight after and after it had cooled. It used to heat so then you had to give it time to cool and settle down. Then you'd be plucking the sides to make it tidy and carrying it to make a round top sort of a roof on it. Then you would have a a thick layer of straw right along the ridge. And then my father would be standing on on top and throwing one of these er straw ropes up then he'd let er an er end down on both sides. Then we had a a little wooden rake, the length of the head was a yard. Then we used to measure with that, between each rope and then, one of use each side of the stack, we'd pull hard and pull a handful of hay from the and twist it round and this handful of hay. And then when he was thatching, you would start on one end and erm putting er f pushing the the the st the thatch into the stack. And then you'd have a length of erm either you made little thinner straw ropes or erm what we called er it was a sort of a coconut twine. Erm that again had been rolled into balls and then he'd have erm about a dozen sticks which which held these balls and stuck them in then after he'd he'd erm er thatched one erm length, one row, he'd pull the string over and attach it to to the the thick s er rope that was er going over the stack. And that from one end to the other. And then there was these these thick er straw ropes going over and then there were the other which were going sideways along the roof to hold the thatch down. [speaker002:] And how long w would he take t t t to thatch on of those then? [John:] Well it depended on the length. You know a fairly long stack could take a couple of days. And they did look really good when when they had been finished. And erm not a drop of water would get in. [speaker002:] No? [John:] No. It would be b because the straw, the thatch had been pulled all straight it would flowing down, and then they used to er they used to th throw it over, it would be throwing the water away from the stack had been built like an egg you know. Bulging out from the base, bulging out and then coming back again. You know it was shaped just like an egg. And then that'd be throwing all the water away, it w it wouldn't soak in. And it was important, the way they built a stack. They used you know th in different layers. Then they used to put a thick layer round the sides to start with, then they would fill in the middle and keep that always stronger so that each layer er it curved. So that it would if it were were just like a trough. It would draw the water in but since there was much more more hay on in the inside, than the out, it er er it curved and then it wouldn't er erm absorb any water at all. if you didn't put enough middle in it, it would sort of sink then, then it would be drawing the water in [speaker002:] Oh I see. [John:] and it would spoil. [speaker002:] Did you w [John:] Y yeah that that if there was a depression in the centre. But after they'd put the the outer layer and then they used to tread and walk hard and tread the middle down. [speaker002:] Did they? [John:] So it would be hard and solid. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And then when you were cutting it in the Winter, you could see the the the layers you know. In a sort of a a a a half shaped in the stack, you could see every layer, the way it had been built. That was the art of a good stack builder again. [speaker002:] Was there ever any danger of those catching fire? [John:] Oh yes, it you carried it too green. If you carried it too green, erm I can't remember that happening to our but I've heard of some people, having to cut a shaft down into the stack you know. We always used to push a long wire in to see how er every stack used to heat a little but er er touchwood I've never er never saw a stack heat that badly. But er there was a time, they got so If you had carried it too green, erm you er it could catch fire. And on the other hand, if you carried wet, well it would go mouldy then. And and stink and it would be all clamped together you know. And a lot of dust in it which was very very unhealthy. That was why a lot of of the old men used to get farmer's lung then, feeding this stuff in the Winter. And nobody knew anything about spores or farmer's lung or an Everybody are very conscious and they wear masks when they're feeding hay now. To stop them breathing these er spores which can affect their lungs and cause farmer's lung. [speaker002:] Was there ever any time when you just had to accept the fact that the hay would have to be carried in wet? B because of the [John:] Well erm you kept it out as long as possible but the weather spoilt it and the more you turned it, the bla blacker it came. And all the goodness was being washed out of it. No er eventually you would get it dry of course. It was better to let it rot out on the field then go to the trouble to carry it wet because it would only rot or become mouldy and absolutely useless. And then eventually you would get it er dry enough. But then when you cut that in the Winter, it would be black and there wouldn't be any any any er er feed value, any sort of nourishment at all in it. It had all been washed out. [speaker002:] When you came in the Winter, to gain access to the stack, [John:] Yes? [speaker002:] how would you how would you do it? [John:] Get at it? [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] Well you used to took er take one length bet from one s er erm er straw up to the other, that was about a yard. Then you had a very sharp knife, er and you used to cut down half the what we called the face of the stack, you know, half the width of it. To start with. Then cut that into into er chunks again. Those again would be about a yard wide and a yard deep, then you had a a big er wire with a loop on one end with a sharp point. And they used to push this through the amount w which you had cut. And erm er grab this wire. Have one foot on a ladder or the other stack stuck into the f into the into the erm face of stack and then you would struggle and work yourself underneath what w we called it the trinkling. I suppose you would call it a truss in English. And carry it loose into the the cow shed or into the sheds for the out-wintering cattle. Or into the barn for chaffing for the horses. Always made certain that the horses had the best hay. [speaker002:] Yes? [John:] Yes. The the the seeds hay, the first crop after after er a filed had been reseeded, the first crop you grew, that was reserved for the horses. And then the cow man would be grumbling, maybe he had some second class [LAUGHTER] hay for cattle. And then he'd be [] grumbling, Why is the the horseman getting all the best stuff. Why can't I have My my horses and my cattle you know. Well the men considered their stock as their own then. And looked after them and er after them and took pride i i in to have them in the best condition. Oh they were not the br bosses' stock, they they they were their stock. My cattle and my horses. And the carter used to steal a lot of oats for for the the the the gaffer used to give him a ration for a week, and the granary would be lo locked. And many were the tricks that the carters They used to get on the right side of the maid and get her to make an impression of the key on a block o of soap. Then he'd take it to someone who could cut er a key er so he could open the up the granary the late in in the middle of the night, when everybody were asleep, and steal oats for the horses. It was a it was a competition between the carters to get their horses into the best condition. And then they used to go around on a Sunday morning from farm to farm to see how the other chaps are getting on and to say how much better their horses looked. Compared to [LAUGHTER] what they had i in the next farm you know []. Oh they were very very keen. Keen competition. [speaker002:] W w why why was it that horses were were given pride of place over the cattle? [John:] Well the horses had to work hard. And er with the ploughing and the the cultivating, the sowing, the carting manure, carting in. Er everything depending on the the the the work of the farm would come to a standstill if erm if the horses y if they were not kept in good condition, they wouldn't be strong enough to keep on going every day. [speaker002:] How would er how would the the the the carter's day begin and how would it progress and how would it end? [John:] Well he'd be getting up about oh shortly after five in the morning, to er feed his horses, muck out the stable, and groom them. And then he'd harness them, all except the bridle. And erm shortly after seven, breakfast would be served. He'd be in the house having his breakfast at seven so he'd be ready to take the horses out to start erm ploughing in Winter, at eight. He'd be out most most days, ploughing. And on a farm when there was only one team, if they wanted to have half a day, carting, aye well the carter was very very annoyed, he didn't like that job at all. [speaker002:] No? [John:] But the fairly large farm, they used to have er two teams. The second carter would be having Well the the first carter h the head carter had the best team of course, ploughing. And then the second carter would be have another pair er carting er and carting manure. And doing all the odd jobs round the farm. [speaker002:] So the actual So w why was it the fetching of etcetera, were thought of as being not so good? [John:] Well erm it was a sticky bus you know, er a field in Winter, it was just er bare soil, there was n no no grass on it and with the cart trudging back and forth, getting towards er a gateway, you would up to your knees in mud you know. Erm and it was rather a a and heavy work, you had to have a team of horses to pull a load of suedes and you had to get them in Some you used to to carry out on and just drag them I mean s spread them out on the field er for the store cattle and the sheep. Then you had to bring some into the yard which were put through the scrapper for the dairy cows and the young calves that were housed. And then the the the store cattle they were in big open yards during the nights and then you used to let them out and eat these off er a grass field in Win i in in in in the daytime. And you used to pull them e every four rows, making them into a row. Er throw two and two together into the centre. And the ones you brought into the yard to put through the scrapper, you cut the leaves off. Of courses otherwise that would choke the scrapper. But the one that were carted out on the fields, they were left with the leaves on because the cattle ate the leave as well. [speaker002:] W w w w what exactly was the scrapper? [John:] Well er there were two they was a slicer and a scrapper. It was a machine which you we had an oil engine in the barn. There was the crusher for grinding the corn and the chaff cutter for chaffing the the the er hay or straw and there was the scrapper. And it had plates inside er it used to cut the the the the into like big chips. [speaker002:] Oh right. [John:] You had sort of a these eyes on on this big plate and it was turning round and it would be er churning them up you know, cutting them into like big er chip potato chip you know really. Into these log thick chips. And they were there was another er er slicer. There were two blades on that, cutting them into into round slices about oh three quarters of an inch thick. Cutting the that was for for the or the dairy cows. And for the for the young calves you had to scrap them cos they couldn't eat the the the big big thick sl slices for the young calves. [speaker002:] How was the slicer powered then? [John:] Oh erm with with a We had a er erm a a paraffin driven er a Crossley, a big oil engine with two big flywheels to it and a big piston like a bucket. And then you you used to have a blow lamp to heat it up and after that you you erm put it on half compression and you were turning one of the big flywheels round until it it started and you had to keep the blowlamp on it. That w w w pet th there was no petrol engines then. And er eventually he came er an engine which er there were some which started on petrol and then you turned on to to paraffin but most of the work, just going on petrol, with a plug and a magneto. You used to start that with a handle of course. But er with the the the er the original the the first one, you had to heat it up with a blowlamp and you had to be very very careful to get it just to the right heat, before if you tried to start it too cold, it would kick back and if was too hot again, it just wouldn't start. And that was er Oh it could break your arm you know, this huge big flywheel and you were taking hold of one of the of the of the spokes and turning it, if it were to backfire suddenly, it could break your arm. And on on the other hand, if it started and took off suddenly, it could pull you, you might fall, right on er face into the flywheel again. the safety [LAUGHTER] officers of today, oh they'd have a blue fit if if they saw such things you know []. [speaker002:] So th this this was a standing engine was it? [John:] A standing bit on on a be big concrete base. And then there would be a big, what we called a big shafting, going along the the side of the barn with pulleys on it. And the erm the erm oil engine would be in a little shed outside the barn, and this shafting would be going through the wall. and there'd be two pulleys on that, what we called a loose pulley. And then you had a sort of a gadget what would slide the st there was strap coming from the pulley of the oil engine onto There was a loose pulley and there was a gadget, you could slide the strap onto the loose pulley, then that that was only just er turning loose of course, then you slid it back on the fixed and it's be turning all this shafting along the barn and then there were pulley sets on that and in direct line with crusher and chaff cutter and the scrapping machine you had a a strap form those. Those were fixed as well. Not in concrete of course but er you had erm They were wedged from the the erm Oh there was a a granary above barn, then from the rafters there, you had a big a bit of wood to to wedge them down solid. So they wouldn't move. [speaker002:] So there was a sort of clutch, er this sort of sliding [John:] Yea o Yes er there was no clutch, only something you could erm it was sort of a forked iron er over the strap, and then you had a a long plank in in above the chaff cutter, that was the most dangerous thing. And then there was an iron bar going from this plank, through the wall, and you could Er then this sort of a a pronged thing that was over the strap, you you could s push it over with that pu pulling the the plank up here. It pushed the strap, from one pulley to another, to the loose pulley or the f fixed pulley on the end of the long shafting. [speaker002:] Why was the the chaffer considered the most dangerous then? [John:] Well, you had to feed it you know erm Then there was this erm er sort of a whipping in in there was a long trough leading to to the knife and then there were some cogwheels which pulled it into the knife. And should you be careless enough to get your fingers caught in there, well that would be the end, it would draw you in and it would chop your fingers and your arm off in in half inch er bits you know. And then er er but it was this was fixed right above, then you could, reach if you did feel you hand getting caught, you could slide it off and stop the p switch it onto loose pulley immediately. [speaker002:] So t So so so there were at least three pieces of machinery that you could run? [John:] Yes. Yes. [speaker002:] The chaffer, the slicer and the scrapper. [John:] Yeah and and and the corn crusher. [speaker002:] Oh. [John:] For for for grinding the oats. But there were some people you know on a smallish farm, they didn't have an oil engine, then they would have to turn the scrapper by hand. And that was real hard work. Er I saw how they used to do it in the after they'd finished work, used to be at it till till nine or ten that night. And at one time, we used to feed what we called, for the used to chaff some of the the poorest hay and straw and spread it out in a thick layer about oh twelve of fifteen inches high on the floor of the of the barn. And then, scrap the and throw that over. Make it into a a thick layer, and then in a day of so, the juice from the would have soaked into this second class hay and er you used to mix it with a fork and load it into into bags. And when you were carrying it on your back into the sheds for the cattle, the juice would be would be soaking through the bags. [LAUGHTER] Your back would be soaking wet. It was not very healthy food erm we gave up doing that because er as you know cattle, they chew their cud. Well they like to cut their food in their own length, and roll it into balls in their mouth and then they can er regurge it up and chew it. Well with this stuff, they couldn't do that and then they they they their stomach used to get compacted the they they they couldn't er couldn't er get their cud up and caused a lot of stomach trouble. So and they were tempted to eat erm poor stuff which they they wouldn't eat otherwise because there was the juice of the soaked to it. And er that went out of fashion because of the two reasons and the most was because it's it was it would compact in their stomachs, they couldn't lift it up again. Couldn't get their cud up. [speaker002:] Oh I see. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] With er... this machinery [John:] Yes? [speaker002:] er were you ever a in a position to sort of to help other farmers er if they wanted their [John:] F with the with the corn grinding. [speaker002:] Corn grinding slicing or [John:] Oh no no just they were bringing the corn to put through the crusher. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] Er not with the hay or with the. But with with the corn er few people had Then they used to er to bring it over. I I remember er that was the way my father used to get a a bit of pocket money to buy tobacco and things, a shilling a sack and the other farmers they used to find the the biggest sack they could find you know, and cram it with oats and then you used to be after supper. I can remember waking up up about one o'clock in the morning, and to hear this old oil oil engine going, Puff puff, puff puff, puff puff. And the and the whine of the crusher you know, the two plates rubbing against each other. About one o'clock in the morning he'd be at it, getting it ready for the neighbours to collect the following day. For a shilling a bag. U maybe he'd be at it till about two o'clock in the morning. [speaker002:] So he would actually do the work himself? [John:] Oh yes yes then after after the men had gone to bed of course. [speaker002:] I see. [John:] And then th that was the his tobacco money. And he was a heavy smoker, an ounce a day. Although it only cost about eightpence ha'penny an ounce then. [speaker002:] Mm. Were you involved in in operating this machinery? [John:] Yes yes yes when when when I grew older, of course it took all the men When er you know one would b the the whole lot would be going together you know. The erm the the crusher, the hopper was fixed underneath the granary and then there'd be a little trap-door in the floor or a granary, right above and you could er shovel the the corn, the oats down into. Then that would sort of feed itself, but you had to have one man feeding the the scrapping machine and another man with a shovel, pulling away the the the the the the scrapped at the side and then you had to have another man feeding the long hay into the chaff cutter. And another one moving the chaff away to one side. So it took at least four men. Wh when the fo the three machines were going together. Needed at least four men to attend them. [speaker002:] So in fact, although they were there to save labour [John:] Y y y y y [speaker002:] they in fact involved quite a lot [John:] A lot of labour yes but that was far far better than to have to turn them by hand you know. That was just slavery. [speaker002:] Mm. How long would they all be going? Over what period of time would th would you have all of them going together? [John:] You mean, during the day or well it took about an hour say. About two afternoons a week. [speaker002:] And how often how often does that go on throughout the year? [John:] Throughout the Winter. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] Say w when we would used to bring the the stock in at the Menai Bridge Fair, that was the twenty fourth of October. And then you started erm getting food for the chopping and grinding food for them. And that went until they went out in late April. From the end of April to from the end of October to the end of April say. [speaker002:] Mm. Can d d d during the Winter, what sort of things would the carter b b b be up to then? [John:] Well erm he t in the Spring after you had turned the cattle out, the the sheds you know, the cattle it would be full of manure. Then after you had finished the sowing, that would be the next job. Clearing out all the manure into the er big heap down into the fields where you wanted to spread them next Winter. And then erm, as soon as the threshing was over, before you started ploughing, you'd have two carts going carting this m this manure out and [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Erm er Ken, could you er just give me an outline of what what happened? What's happened to you. What's sort of going on since the last time I interviewed you. Which was about [Kenneth:] Er [speaker001:] is it two years ago now I think. [Kenneth:] Is it two years? Good Lord. Er that time we we was living in Bay wasn't we? [speaker001:] That's right yes. [Kenneth:] Yeah. Erm we was living in the High Street I believe. [speaker001:] You were. [Kenneth:] Yeah that's right yeah. [speaker001:] Quite a nice place actually. [Kenneth:] Er yeah. That was only a t a temporary temporary house. Er we managed eventually to get a a erm a flat off the council. We was in a two-bedroomed erm council flat but they were intended for old age pensioners like you know. [speaker001:] Right. [Kenneth:] So that again was temporary. Erm I think we was there about nine months. It wasn't a bad place but er a very small one you know. Erm from then we got a council house which is where the wife's living at the moment. Erm... I think... I think we'd have been there about nin No. About a year when we decided to split up. So consequently she's living in Bay and I'm living on my own in up in Holyhead. I moved back to Holyhead and been living in a bedsit since June.. Er and I got the job at the Centre in August. Erm... went back into photography, that's basically all that's happened to me. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er did you s... w w when er when I saw you when you were living in [Kenneth:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Erm you gave a a very full account of the sort of pressures that erm you were under because you didn't have a job and you related it to the necessity of involving yourself in what you euphemistically called the black economy. [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm er you've you've indicated that er you've separated now from your wife. [Kenneth:] Yeah, that's right. [speaker001:] Erm do you think the fact that you didn't have a job, er contributed to that in any way? [Kenneth:] Er that's a hard question. Erm... I don't think it did. I really don't think so. Because we're both level headed people and... not having a job was obviously a big thing in our lives and I'd indicated to Anne that if we did move away, I would stand a much better chance of getting a job. But she preferred to stay up here with her family and her friends. So I then told her that if we were gonna stay here, the chances of me getting a job were very slim. So she'd have to face the prospect of me being on the dole for a long time. And she says she preferred that to to us having to move away. Erm, I took her at her word, I still looked for work, I didn't stop looking for work but I took it that she was happy enough me being on the dole if it meant that we could stay around Bay or Anglesey. [cough] Erm we didn't have any major pr er the major problem was was money. That was the only that was the only problem associated with not having work. I kept myself very busy anyway erm in various erm hobbies that I had. So she was ne er I was never under her feet. I'm not the sort of guy that sits around the house like you know. So I was never under her feet or any of them sort of problems that a lot of people find. I find that friends of mine who are unemployed, their wives tend to th tend to think that they get under their feet a lot. They're never away from each other, erm whereas myself I was always out. And er I'd come up and stay with my brother in Holyhead about two or three times a week. Er overnight like you know, er when I was doing my work at the centre, the unemployed worker's centre. When I was involved in various projects I'd stay overnight so, I'd be out of the house at least six hours a day. So it was just like I was working really except very poor wages like you know. Erm... I think the the biggest problem we had in our marriage, and the reason it broke up, is because er I'm a a mixer and I love to get involved. And Anne isn't. She's the sort of woman that likes to stop at home and watch soap operas and and gossip about this person, that person and the other person. With her friends like you know. Erm and when she was talking to me about different people, I'd never know who they was, [LAUGHTER] because I was never I was never that interested in Bay to er to find out who they was or to remember she'd point out somebody and say that's so and so and then when she'd mention him a couple of days later I'd go, Who's that? You know? So I'd never get involved in the er in the gossipy side of Bay life. Er consequently we couldn't talk about anything. She wasn't interested in my photography or er whatever I was involved in the centre. And I wasn't involved in the gossip in Bay. We didn't stop talking like but the talk s just sort of stemmed around the house and the kids and it didn't go any further than that. Although I tried to get her interested in hobbies, she just wasn't interested so. And I put that down to the biggest contribution. Just a lack of interest... in each other or. [speaker001:] You did express some er anxiety if I remember when you spoke to me about erm not about not providing enough [Kenneth:] Mhm. [speaker001:] for the for the family. We were you ever under any sort of direct pressure to keep the money [Kenneth:] [cough] [speaker001:] keep it coming in for for whatever? [Kenneth:] Erm Th it seemed to fluctuate. There was pressure at times like er coming up to the start of a new season. Obviously there was new school clothes that was needed. Erm the mot pressure erm from that... for that sort of stuff was was came form me. I felt I had to I When I went to school m my father couldn't afford very much and erm I remember starting the first term of first day of the term with shoes with a big split in it. And the headmaster taking me on stage and showing everybody what a bad example I was, because I had shoes like crocodiles. And that that made a big influence on me and I swore it'd never happen to my kids. So the the biggest pressure for that type of thing came from myself. I always made sure my daughter had new clothes to go to school with like you know. Not just but in g in good order all the way through the year. So consequently at times there would be er periods of stress for myself, where I just had to get enough money to give my daughter some new clothes like you know. And then there'd be clothes for Anne. Anne liked to feel that er although she wasn't a teenager any more, that she was at least smartly dressed as well as the other women in Bay like you know. Myself I never worried about I was one of the biggest scruffs you've ever seen in your life actually. Erm looking back on the photographs. That was taken in the last few years, er I j I I've never bothered about clothes in my entire life. What I look like. Since I since I left school and I was able to afford my own clothes and I knew that erm a responsibility for my own clothing was on my my own shoulders, it has never bothered me since, for myself. but it always bothers me for other people like you know. Erm but no real stress. Once Anne had accepted the fact that I wasn't gonna work in the foreseeable future, and it was her choice that we stay, cos I gave her a clear choice, it was either move away where I could get work, or stay and suffer the wages of the dole like you know. And once she'd made the choice that she wanted to stay, no matter what the consequences were as far as money were concerned, well that was it. I didn't worry about that too much except just these periods when say a bill'd come in or clothes were needed, something like that. [speaker001:] How did you solve the problem then of er [Kenneth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] of providing [Kenneth:] Erm... a lot of it was working on the side. Er that is what you call the black economy yeah? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] Er when it was needed it wa it was always needed in a hurry. Although we had we had warning that erm obviously that you knew the kids were gonna start a new season in September, you'd start saving the money and a bill would come up. Something would come up, you'd need the money. Now I think I told you last time that er the whole time me and Anne had been together, we're not drinkers. It's very rare we go out. We both smoke but er I smoke roll your own cigarettes and I and half an ounce lasts me a week. So it's not a big expense like you know so that we weren't spending the money on ourselves, it's just needed in the house and needed for the kids like you know. Erm we didn't waste money in any way. But when it when a bill came up and it would take away the money that we'd saved for Kelly's new school uniform, so it always seemed to come in a rush and there was always something needed like you know. Like next week you had a week or whatever, and then I'd just go out and er ask me friends wh who's hiring whatever. I've done everything from working on a building site for a week and promising to bring me cards in and giving a false name, to er potato picking erm doing hay, anything. There's a lot of it around there's people just A lot of people these days see... the working on the side is a necessity. And it'not just the people who are on the dole but the employers too. The local farmers erm, building site contractors. They see it as a necessity. I was talking to a guy here now, erm who comes to the centre, about er two weeks ago. And he'd he'd been on the dole er I think two years, and he's just started up a a building site. [cough] a contracting business, and he's done it by the skin of his teeth. But he's done it he's sold his he's mortgaged his house up to the hilt and everything. And he won't employ [LAUGHTER] he won't employ full time workers. He takes somebody and gives them the work on the side. And he doesn't pay them any less than he pays a qualified man. Than he would pay a qualified man. He just won't do it. He says the guys on the dole need need the work. He says, I'll give it to them. [speaker001:] I see. [Kenneth:] But he won't take anyone on full time for the simple fact that just takes one guy off the dole and and makes his life good. Whereas, taking him taking one guy a week for a week, is putting no-one in jeopardy and giving somebody a decent wage for a week. He says, I'd rather do that. [speaker001:] So when when you s use the word n necessary [Kenneth:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you meant that they thought it was a good thing to do. Yes? [Kenneth:] Erm... not a not a a good thing to do when I when I said necessary,... without it a lot of people would er I don't know er aggravate I don't want to make it say more drastic than it is. But myself, I'd have had to send my daughter to school on m more than one occasion with a tatty uniform. And by working on the side wh which I say as very necessary to get her that uniform. It wouldn't have made any difference to my daughter's well being, but it made a hell of a difference to her erm her social standing. To the other kids. Wh which is a major thing. Th this impression that I got or er erm... that incident at school, played such a big part in my life after that, I was mortally embarrassed for the rest of my school life. By that one thing. Everybody knew that incident. Everybody used to call me crocodile. And it stayed with me right until I left school. Even though I changed school halfway through. Erm our school was pulled down and three schools amalgamated into one big co comprehensive. And before the end of the first term everyone knew me as crocodile. Even the other two schools you know. So... it's a thing that stayed with me for a long time. And that made a big difference to my life. Erm to my self respect and I just I was determined that it wasn't going to happen to my daughter, so in consequence I saw that working on the side to get to get the uniform so that she could go to school in a new uniform same as all the other kids as a necessity. Er it wasn't a a good thing it was just necessary. And a lot of people that I've spoken to who've had problems have turned to that alternative because they could see no other. If I'd have gone to the to the social services or er the D H S S and says to them, my daughter's got to have a new uniform to go to school with because her self respect is gonna suffer if she doesn't, they wouldn't have given be nothing. They'd have just turned round and says, Well we can't help that, I'm sorry. So I just went I knew I did the only thing that I knew I could do. And that's work on the side and hope to get away with it. And touch wood, I've never been caught.... [speaker001:] You said that... in the nature of things you've always needed the money almost as of yesterday. [Kenneth:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm so you have to get work fairly quickly. [Kenneth:] Yeah. [speaker001:] When you er I mean you're in that er situation, how do you cope with the idea that you need the money, you need the job, but you've got to somehow sell yourself and get employed on the best terms? [Kenneth:] Yeah. Well obviously you compromise. Erm... the most important thing was getting the money. So you didn't haggle. At all. If a guy I mean I've worked for farmers I I actually worked for a farmer once from seven o'clock in the morning till nine o'clock at night for five quid. And that wasn't the first day, that was eight days er eight days solid from Sunday to the Monday following Monday. And I worked for him for five pound a day because we needed the money. And there was nothing else going. And that guy took advantage. [LAUGHTER] He knew I needed the money and he knew he'd got me for for a he'd have got me up at six o'clock in the morning if he'd have needed me. No problem at all. I was actually living on his farm at the time. And he he used to get me up at seven o'clock, come to work for him. He used to get me up at six to go in work for seven. And if he'd have needed me at six he'd have got me up at five. He used to give me an hours warning and then we'd work through until it got dark out in the fields and then we'd go into the sheds and restack the hay or whatever he wanted to do. And he'd make sure he used me till about nine o'clock. He just knew he had cheap labour. I couldn't argue with that. There was nobody else to turn to. You know there was there was no other work going at that time. So I just put up with it, and worked it. And we got the money. [speaker001:] Was there ever a moment when you f when you were striking the [LAUGHTER] bargain [] if one could call it that, [Kenneth:] Mm. [speaker001:] when you when you knew that he'd got you by the short and curlies? [Kenneth:] Oh yeah. Definitely. All the time. [speaker001:] You knew that he knew that. [Kenneth:] Oh yeah [LAUGHTER] it was so obvious yeah. Erm... [cough] this guy that I was working for h he's er he he was quite well known for it in the area. Erm... that he w he he he knew that you needed the work. And consequently that's why he only p I mean I'm talking now about... oh about four years ago. Which is erm No I'm talking less than four years ago, I'm talking three years ago maybe. And all the other farmers were paying the guys who were working for them on the side, ten pound a day, for working from nine o'clock in the morning till about five at night. And yet this guy was paying me f er half that for tw nearly twice as many hours, yeah. Erm he just knew it and he was well known for it. He he was the last resort of anybody I knew. But if they needed it, they knew they could always get work with him. The guy was taking on ten people at o he he had ten people working for him in one day. All at five pound a day. And all working long hours. I've never heard of anyone working the hours I worked but then again I was living there and that was my disadvantage. He could get me any time. And he knew I didn't have to be home for the kids or whatever, he knew my circumstances so well and he knew th exactly how much he could use me you know. And he wouldn't let me go at nine o'clock if he thought I hadn't have been knackered and ready to fall down you know. He'd have kept me there longer than that. [speaker001:] So in fact he knew that he was known as the last resort [Kenneth:] I'm I'm not so sure that he knew he was known as the last resort. [speaker001:] Ah. [Kenneth:] But he knew he was well known for knowing that he'd got you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] And when when you come to him, you were desperate for work. So he he probably did realize that he was he was the last resort, but I don't think he was the he was the type to actually think that out you know. He just saw you as cheap labour and that was the end of it. I don't think he actually thought about it. Otherwise he his conscience would have bothered him I think. He was a terrible guy. [speaker001:] Since I saw you last, has your has your girls gone to secondary school? [Kenneth:] No. She's still in er still in the small school. [speaker001:] Mhm. Erm Wh wh wh what other means did you use to ensure that there was this you know, the family circumstances were kept up to par? [Kenneth:] [cough] Erm well we sold things. [speaker001:] Did you? [Kenneth:] Yeah, we've had to sell things now and again. Another extreme last resort. And that was the extreme last resort. Erm oh God, she sold the wedding rings. But that was quite early in the marriage that was. Erm... we've sold endless tape recorders and Hi Fi's. You name it, we've sold it. We've had to. And then we've basically the only two The only thing I haven't turned is crime. If you don't call working on the side as a crime which I don't. Erm I've never turned to stealing. it's been uppermost in my mind a few times but the... I daresay I wouldn't go to prison the first time. But you'd to me you don't you don't turn to stealing to do it for a one off. If you're gonna turn to stealing, then from then on it's gonna be not the last resort any more, it's gonna be one of the first resorts because it pays so much quicker. And in in the circumstances I'm talking about where I would work on the side, then it's always gonna be erm turning to the quickest resort, rather than the last resort you know. So stealing being a quick resort, you'd I'd f I I know for a fact I'd find myself turning to it firstly and not lastly. Which is wrong and I'll end up in prison. And that's where I [LAUGHTER] don't want to be []. And I've never wanted to be. Although I have been there myself. But not for stealing, for erm something else. So er I can't think of any other resorts I've turned to. [speaker001:] You [Kenneth:] No. [speaker001:] you you talk er you know, when you were saying that you'd erm you'd sold an endless succession of of things,wh wh when you bought things, er you know when when you were married,it was there always that element in it that it was here for a just [Kenneth:] [LAUGHTER] A short while. [] [speaker001:] a short while? [Kenneth:] That that used to be mentioned between us er er a few times, I can remember it being mentioned a few times. I wonder how long we'll have this one. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Erm [] er... I think it wasn't really a problem. Erm it it could have been a problem if we'd have both been so me materialistic that we wanted to keep everything we'd got hold of you know. But... we knew that it was probably inevitable. But we knew that also that erm if it had to go, I t had to go. I if it was necessary then it would go, same as everything else. Everything else would go too. Erm but one thing I would say, is that erm... we didn't go into long term erm debt to get things like three pieces and and bedroom suite and things like this. I suppose we could have pushed ourselves and got these things, but I think we both knew that erm if we did, we'd probably have to sell them halfway through paying for them. And end up the same circumstances we was now, er with out the stuff that we'd we were paying for for the next six months of the year. So this was mentioned in fact, I think at one stage. We had so many conversations about about economy and all this er can't really remember. I think it was mentioned once. [speaker001:] When er when the time came that you decided that er y you and your tape recorders whatever, had to part company, how do you how would you go about trying to get the best price for them? [Kenneth:] [LAUGHTER] [cough]. Erm I don't think it was it was that difficult actually. Er being on the dole and having friends who were long term on the dole, we tend to buy from each other a lot. [speaker001:] Ah. [Kenneth:] So all you'd do is you'd cast about for a friend, you'd decide on a price that you would accept and if it was a friend, if you had to sell it and you needed fifteen quid to buy a pair of shoes or whatever, erm and you'd like twenty, you'd turn to a mate and go, Have you got twenty quid? and he he'd say yes or no. If he says yes, then he's holding the tape recorder, if he said no, you'd say, Have you got fifteen? And er he'd maybe say yes and he'd get it for fifteen you know. But I've always had at least ten friends who are long term unemployed and we've always bought each other 's stuff. You know he I I've even bought m my own tap er no it was a wireless. I had erm an eight ba er eight band wireless which I bought for a hundred and twenty quid when I was working. Erm when I first came out the army. Paid a hundred and twenty pound for it. [cough] I sold it once when I was skint for fifty quid, that was before I was married. Erm and while I was married I bought it back for twenty and a few months later I sell it for ten pound. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] [LAUGHTER] To the same guy that I'd bought it for twe er for twenty off. [] [speaker001:] Mm. [Kenneth:] So you know. And he'd bought it off his friend who'd paid fifty for it. So I couldn't I couldn't charge him twenty cos he'd only charged me he'd only charged me twenty so I had to sell him back to him for a tenner you know. But er this hundred and twenty pound [LAUGHTER] radio [] was knocking away for a five quid in the end er I er I heard. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] And it was an excell it was an excellent radio. It really was an excellent radio. That's just the way it goes you know. [cough] [speaker001:] So er... there was er a market for there was a market for all this? [Kenneth:] Yes definitely. [cough] [speaker001:] Amongst er really a a small group a relatively small group. [Kenneth:] Yeah, erm of course er some some you'd sold it to you might have other friends who you didn't have as friends. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Kenneth:] So it would slip out of the group. [speaker001:] Right. [Kenneth:] You know. Erm... but like I say w er I'd have always had about ten friends who I would buy things off and they would buy things off me and they're all on the dole. It's very rare you you'll find actually somebody who's working who would who would buy these things off somebody unemployed because they'd expect too much off them. You know? Er like if I was selling somebody who was employed, I erm I had a radio, if I was willing to accept twenty pounds off a friend of mine who was unemployed, I'd expect thirty of a guy who was working. I wouldn't charge I I I'd try and get as much as I could off him cos he was working. And he'd know that and he m he probably wouldn't buy it off me. Because he knows that somebody else has has been offered it for twenty quid. Or at least it will go for twenty quid in the end if he doesn't buy it. So he won't buy it. That's what I've always found anyway. [cough] [speaker001:] So when it came to... er I haven't really asked you whether you found the process of selling painful. But I just assumed that it was. Yeah? [Kenneth:] Not at all. [speaker001:] Wasn't it? [Kenneth:] Never never been that attached [speaker001:] No? [Kenneth:] to things materialistic, no. [speaker001:] Do you think the blow such as it was in s s selling something, was it would it have been softened because you s there was a you knew the people you were selling to. I mean if you had to take it along to a shop and [Kenneth:] Erm... that's fu it is it's a funny question that because I've never never liked selling to shops. I've always much preferred to sell it to friends. Erm so I suppose you could be right. I suppose you could be right and I was feeling an a er an actual blow but not something I've ever thought about or never put into words like you know. I've never actually thought about that. I couldn't really have done it. It's not something I would have considered. I've always I've always felt... If I thought it was necessary then that's the end of it er as far as I know. Er I haven't realized any any feelings of erm you know er sadness over selling it or anything like that. It's always just been necessary and [sigh] there it goes you know. So you could be right I don't know. I don't really know. [speaker001:] Erm when you er had to stock up again wh wh h h how would you do that? Where would they come from? [Kenneth:] Erm usually, new. We'd buy new. Even though we'd sold it for a ridiculously low. When we were flush again and we could afford something, you'd get it from a catalogue or whatever. Erm we'd just buy new I suppose. But occasionally well not occasionally but quite often, at least once or twice a week, you'd hear of somebody who is in the thieving business, they'd got something for sale and you could get that quite cheap. And that was another source of stuff. Erm that might have been as well another reason for selling to friends, erm because most of the stuff we bought anyway was new so that doesn't really come into it. But if it was hot, or semi hot, we used to sell it to friends anyway, we wouldn't sell it to a shop. Cos the same thing still apply because most of the stuff was new but we had of hot stuff over the years like. Which is another [LAUGHTER] another for of necessity. Er as I see it. I'd never turn anyone in that turned to stealing. Unless of course, they stole from people I know didn't deserve it. Mostly shops and not as... easy targets or not as deserving targets but just as targets. If they started pinching from old people and things like that [break in recording] [speaker001:] Erm were you under any er any any pressure to accept... erm g g goods that had been acquired by indirect roots? [Kenneth:] Erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] No. [speaker001:] You weren't at all? [Kenneth:] No. [speaker001:] I mean they there was a fact that they knew you were... unemployed er or wasn't in any s You were yours yourself a target. [Kenneth:] Yeah. Erm I wasn't aware of it. I wasn't aware of it at all ever. I'd just be offered same as e most of my friends and other people that are une were offered. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Kenneth:] And you ei you had a chance to say yes or no. If you said no, that was the end of it. Erm... the only thing I've I've never considered buying hot is camera gear. Er because the I say photography is er something I'm gonna ca continue with and if I start buying hot gear then I can't use my equipment where and when I'd want to. You have to be careful where you're taking it and all the rest of it. So er I've never considered that. I've found myself under pressure to say yes, when somebody's brought along a nice new spanking camera and er I just c couldn't accept it. But no-one's ever put me under pressure. Not that I'm aware of anyway. [speaker001:] [clears throat] You er last time I saw you, you were... I didn't know whether you'd been starting up in er in photography but you had been next door I think or I'd seen a lot of your stuff. [Kenneth:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But you you you w you w you were getting into it and you had high hopes for developing your work. [Kenneth:] That's right yeah, I was also er doing a bit for a guy in at the time. Erm... things didn't work out that way because... he found he was er could do cheaper himself. Well not so much cheaper cos I was most of the time I was doing it for nothing anyway. [LAUGHTER] Erm he got his own interest er and in the end he decided on all his own stuff like you know. I suppo I suppose it was cheaper in a way because erm he found himself in the shop a lot more, he couldn't afford the staff that he had, he had used to have two people working for him. He had to let one go so he was in the shop a lot himself. And there wasn't really enough work for two people. Erm so he set up the corner as a darkroom and started doing playing about with his with his own black and white printing. So er I fell off with that one. [cough] Erm I lost interest in photography f er after a while because the er... the photography at the centre, there's always been ever since I joined, there's been six of us who had er a l a lasting thing with photography. There'd be other people come and had we'd show them round the darkroom and teach them how to print, how to take pictures, and as soon as they knew how to do that, they'd fall off and go away. And we st we tried to start up Well I tried to start up erm a sort of self help workshop where we all we got materials off the centre, they supplied the materials. We went out, we took photographs, we come back, we printed them up and we helped each other to learn more techniques and whatever. We all read books and passed on what we learnt to the others. There was only [LAUGHTER] two of us [] that showed any interest at all in that and that was the guy that was working here, he was running the photography and myself. The rest of them just e didn't put anything into it at all. And er I just lost interest all together and stopped doing it. I was I used to come up here every week anyway, cos I had friends here but erm I never er I didn't take pictures for months and months and months. So that really fell off. And it's only just just lately since I split with the wife er I took a couple of months to sort myself out. Cos although it was an amicable split, I still needed time to settle down and get used to the fact that I was on my own again. Erm kids. And sor sort out which direction I was going. And after I got the job at the centre, erm that took up a lot of time for er a few weeks till I settled down. And then I r I realized that the job was only gonna last a year, cos it's only a year job, so the best thing I can do is to go... all out for what I wanna do when I leave the centre. So I'm using every resource I can a at the centre to push my photography at the moment. Hoping that by August next year, something'll come of this photography and I can walk straight into a maybe go to a college or if that isn't on the cards, into some sort of a technical lab or something. Something that'll keep me going in photography anyway. I don't think I'm good enough to set up on my own. I don't know what August will bring but I don't think so. But at the moment I'm really pushing on the er erm portrait photography cos I'm quite good at that. See what that com see what comes of that. [speaker001:] You s you you said that you're using every resource [Kenneth:] Mhm. [speaker001:] within the centre [Kenneth:] How Yeah. Yeah. Erm what I'm doing basically is er putting on as many exhibitions as I can using the centre's name and making sure that I've got a good amount of my work in there, although I don't push anybody else out. They don't really contribute as much as they could, so that leaves me with an awful lot of space. So I push as much of my stuff over as I can. Erm... I used the centre's resources like the phones and that for phoning round. Er the various exhibition places asking about that, and making sure they all know my name. I write them letters, I get people to send er like Photo Gallery in Cardiff, erm I rang them up, they were sending us stuff and it was addressed to a woman that used to be in the ph er activities officer about fou three years ago. Or even four years ago, four years ago. And nobody bothered changing it, because the stuff's still coming in anyway, nobody's changed the name. So I rang up and changed the name to my name so that sh sh the women who runs Photo Gallery in Cardiff, now knows that Ken runs the photography group in Holyhead, so she knows my name now. And she rang up here when when they offered us the space, she rang up here and asked for me. Which is a step in the right direction, she knows my name. So th that's that's the sort of thing I'm doing. And the place is used a lot erm like the local Trade's Council meet here, and I make sure that I open up for them. Cos they meet on an evening that we're not used. The centre's not used like next Wednesday, they're coming here. And I make sure that I'm here and I open up for them, and I make them a cup of tea. So the local Trade's Council all know me and I think they all like me as well, so. Anyway I can push myself forward with the local people and w an anybody with anything to do with photography. That's what I do. Using everything I can get. I've also I forgot to mention when you said i has anything happened to you? I also have done some work for the local papers as well. I was at one time er the ph printer Not the photographer but the printer for erm a free hand out paper called the Islander. I used to do all their printing for them for their photographers. [cough]. [speaker001:] just needs to be erm back again.... [Kenneth:] Yeah I was doing their printing for them and er I've also taken a few shots for the Chronicle. And one or two for the Mail. Erm so that way as well like you know. [speaker001:] You said that erm Photo Gallery, is it in in in Cardiff, [Kenneth:] Yes [speaker001:] had allocated you some space. [Kenneth:] That's right yeah. No [speaker001:] Is it a pr is it a prestigious [Kenneth:] Yeah it's very prestigious actually erm er a local photographer who was helping us to run the er the photography workshop we call it, not a class because we we we don't teach formally, we just work together and help each other out. Erm he is a very good landscape photographer e er in a same style as Ansell Adams who's his hero. [LAUGHTER] And he does very very good work. Excellent work. And he does twenty by sixteen prints you know, er which he tries to sell. He isn't selling very many, I don't know why. Erm... he wrote to Photo Gallery and asked them for er an exhibition date and they gave him one in nineteen ninety. [LAUGHTER] So for them to actually come and ask for our work to be exhi er exhibited there, is excellent. But it's not just erm it's not just this unemployed worker's centre, they're asking ten they want ten unemployed worker's centres throughout Wales to contribute work. But what we're doing is making sure that ours is gonna be the best there like you know. That's what we're trying for anyway. Cos we haven't seen the rest yet. [LAUGHTER] But er that's what we're hoping for. But it's v er everybody's trying to get in there. Erm lots of new photographers exhibit there and lots of the old established photographers exhibit there. Er Fay Goodwin has just had one there. [speaker001:] Oh yes. [Kenneth:] So you know. And at the moment we're on the ninth of this month, I received a copy today they s they sent me some material, erm they've actually been given photographs by people like er Ansell Adams, Fay Goodwin, er David er [clicks fingers] Bailey. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] Couldn't remember his name. Good God, he'd never forgive me. David Bailey er they've all given prints for them to sell to help the funds out at the ce at the er Photo Gallery. So that's how prestigious it is like you know there. Everybody uses it. And a lot of people go there to have a look. A lot of the photographers you know. So it's a it's a good place to be. No doubt about it. [speaker001:] So you've got the er somehow the idea of a career has formed? [Kenneth:] [sigh] Yeah. Erm I wouldn't say it's an idea, I'd say it's a hope. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] [LAUGHTER] A great hope. I'm hoping to do it. What I what I'd really hope for is to be able to do it without having to go to college and just do it by experience but that's I'd have to be awful awful good. Especially as I don't like colour and I only like black and white. I hate colour photography. Erm I don't just hate the thought of doing, I just I don't like colour photographs at all. They don't do anything for me at all. I I love the tonal range in black and white. [cough] So erm I'm hoping to be able to do it, just off what I can do,m my experience as it is like. Or what it will be by the time I've finished this job. But it's it's a it's a hard field to break into. it really is. And I think the most I'll get out of it, at least for a few years, is local portrait photography. It'll only be... after I've m met a few people and photographed them well, that maybe my name will be start to be mentioned around That is another reason for courting the Trade's Council and any other councillors that come in. And th any other bigwigs that come in. I er I court them a lot. And when when my technique has improved, because I I've as I said, I've just started getting back into po portrait photography, and I forgot a lot of what I learnt before. Now when that's improved enough, I'm gonna start asking these councillors and that if I can take their photograph. And when I've done a a spot on photograph for them, when somebody else is mentioning a photograph, you know, er to go up in the Town Hall or whatever, er they the local mayor has just had one done [LAUGHTER] by one of the guys in the workshop, and I know for a fact I could do one that's ten times better than that. But I haven't said so obviously. You don't do that sort of thing. Erm... but I'm hoping that one day he'll see I know he's seen my work and I think I've got a sneaking suspicion that when he came in here he was gonna ask me to do it. Erm but he got he got sidetracked by this guy, and they were talking and he he mentioned a photograph, and he got in like you know. I w I wouldn't swear on that but I think that's what happened. Cos he was looking at me when he come in. And he was moving in my direction, although I didn't know he was coming in for a photograph. Erm and it was only afterwards reflecting on it I think he was coming to me. Er cos he had seen he had seen two or three of my prints. But he hasn't seen the rest. And I think that once I've taken e a few of the local bigwigs, then when they want a photograph taken, my name'll get mentioned somewhere along the line and they might come to me. [speaker001:] I you mentioned going to college or or rather not going to college. [Kenneth:] Mm. [speaker001:] Yeah? Erm is it something you want to avoid or so or not? [Kenneth:] Erm... I'd re I'd really like the the experience and the knowledge that I could learn at college, but I'd like to take a short cut too. [LAUGHTER] I'd like to work in photography now instead of you know erm going to college and spending four years at college. I don't see it as a waste of time, but I see it as erm, as may be an as a a n a necessary delay. I do see it as a delay even though w I'm gonna learn and my technique'll improve a hundred percent. I'm just hoping that I could learn as I'm as I'm earning you know. Well not earning but learn as I'm actually working in photography like. I'd like to work with with er a good photographer, rather than go to college. I reckon I could learn a a lot more. I dislike I dislike the idea of learning in a in a formal class. I like the idea of learning on the job you know. That appeals to me a lot more. But it's hard to do. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You s you you've indicat er you you've sort of g given [clears throat] an impression that er this er this... the centre h depends if you want to get a lot out of it, you've really got to sort of work at it quite hard to er bring it up to anything together. [Kenneth:] I d didn't quite understand that. [LAUGHTER] missed a word there. [speaker001:] In the sense that er you say that you had a camera club [Kenneth:] Yeah. [speaker001:] or [Kenneth:] Aha. [speaker001:] Erm but it really depended, the persons who really got the stuff out of it was just two people in the end. [Kenneth:] That's true yeah, that's because the others weren't willing to to put in. The s working at the centre I I can tell you that one of the especially being the activities officer which is what I am, one of the biggest problems with the centre, is not being able to put things on, it's getting people to be interested in them. There's an awful lot of apathy in Holyhead. I used to say beforehand but I wasn't as totally convinced as I am now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kenneth:] I am totally convinced that the people in Holyhead want you to put things on, pick them up at the door, drop them off, teach them how to do it er and drop them back again. And that's the only way they consider going. We've had to cancel five classes that we set up erm in November. Five different classes we had to cancel because nobody turned up. Er one of them I was running myself which is on on maintenance. Er which is a something that a lot of people mention to me. You know, er, Oh I wish I could learn how to change a p put on a plug properly. Or change a fuse or mend a chair. Whatever. So I've done all this, I'm quite a handyman in the house, so we talked about it at the cen at the centre here and we actually asked another guy to do it, who's erm sixty odd and he comes in here everyday er and he was willing to to start it or to run it. And we was gonna when we saw the interest, when the when it was proved there was enough people coming, we were gonna buy him the tools for that, to do the job properly. Erm, the buy who was gonna do it, unfortunately has eye trouble and er towards the beginning of the start, quite near to the start his er eye trouble picked up a lot more. And he he couldn't do it, he couldn't concentrate. So I took it over, no problem at all. And I was running it and the first week I got there, and one guy turned up. And he turned up because he turns up for everything. [LAUGHTER] No matter what it us you know []. So... I taught him how to change a fuse. It took me two hours to cha to teach him how to change a fuse an and erm w w wasn't only how to change a fuse but the correct fuse for the the correct appliance like you know. So I taught him that the first week, and the second week we went back and there was still only him, so it [LAUGHTER] I taught him how to rewire a plug how to do it properly and er went back a third week and he was s still the only one there, so we went through it again, see if he'd picked it up and he hadn't so. Now he can ch he can actually wire a plug properly. Which is a Godsend. Because the way he was [LAUGHTER] wiring them to start with, would have killed somebody in the end []. So he got something out of it but he was the only one that ever turned up. And I went there four weeks. And nobody turned up for it. And yet eve er quite a lot of people had mentioned it and it was well advertised. [cough] One of my jobs here is to erm is to sell the centre in a sense. And we use newspapers, we don't use the television because we can't get on it. Er I actually make, whichever comes up, I make a poster for it, and I blitz the town with them. E there's hardly a shop ion Holyhead you can go into wh which hasn't got one of my posters in it, for something or other like you know. And usually for all of them. [LAUGHTER] Which is a lot of posters. Erm... and just people just they just won't come. They just don't like to get involved in something which is ongoing for a few weeks you know. The main thing seems to be sport. The young guys will come for the sport, the young unemployed. Erm but if this trend continues, I can see them shooting down the activities side of this this place and just using it as an advice centre. Cos there's already a a s a sport's centre. And er. And if we're doing the same thing, they're gonna s sooner of later they're gonna click and they're gonna say, Well you know, that's too much of a good thing like you know. Shut one of them down, it'll probably be us. [LAUGHTER] See it coming. It's a terrible place this. [speaker001:] You've erm [clears throat] you've you've indicated that er you you used the word a apathy. Is I mean i Do you think it the fact that there is it is an area of high unemployment has anything to do with it at all? [Kenneth:] Erm I really don't know. I couldn't say actually. It's it's something I've obviously thought a lot about. Because my job depends on it. M My job depends on getting them in here. The more people I get in and get involved in classes, the better it's gonna look at the end of the year. Erm I've obviously though about it quite a lot and I can't figure out a reason for it. I can't say that it's high unemployment be I don't know, what's unemployment got to do with it. If they've got free time. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Kenneth:] If people are gonna sit around the house while they're unemployed, they're probably the same people who sit around the house when they're on a Saturday and Sunday when they're working you know. They just don't do anything with a Saturday and Sunday. I've known loads of people who who are working full time, and they come home Friday and the go out Friday night, stand up at the bar, and drink twenty pints or whatever, ten pints. And they they they go home and they don't move out the house until Monday morning. [LAUGHTER] terrible people. I don't know I just can't understand what drives these people at all. I couldn't live an existence like that. I've got to get something out of life. You know besides the fact that I I wanna work when I'm when I'm not working, I still like to to get out the house and get involved in something. Otherwise you there's no point. I co I couldn't I couldn't go to work Monday and Friday, Monday to Friday and then spend all the weekend in the house and then just go to work Monday to Friday again, and do that week in and week out. There's no I I can't see what's in life for em at all. It's terrible. But that's seems to be what a lot of the people round here do. I know for a fact my my own brother, and I mentioned this before, the last interview. He spent seven years just sitting on his backside in the house. And he ruled his house with a rod of iron you know. Every decision that was made in the house was his, his wife had no say in it. Er he said what was gonna be cooked for tea, he said when there was a cup of tea made. His house was in his entire kingdom. And he didn't want anything else. For seven years he didn't want anything else. [cough] And then he moved to Holyhead. Erm and he started coming to this centre... he he came to the centre once or twice with... my other brother for some advice I think, welfare right advice. And then he bought a computer... to use in the house, nowhere else like,s it was still his house was his kingdom. And he found he couldn't handle it. So hearing there was computer classes here, he started coming and he didn't like it and he stopped. And then after a couple of weeks he still couldn't get on with his computer, so he came back. And he stayed, and now he drops in here most days of the week and he practically runs the computer class in there. And he actually mixes with people which is something he's never done. [LAUGHTER] That guy has never mixed with people and yet now he just he mixes with everybody. So this this centre has actually changed his life. And his attitude a hell of a lot. But like I say for seven years he just sat and didn't want to do nothing. And a lot of people are like that. [speaker001:] Has the has the centre in any sense... erm... political linkings? [Kenneth:] [cough] Erm [cough]... again that's a hard question because I'm thoroughly non-political, absolutely non-political. Erm I know for a fact that Peter who who's the supervisor erm is a staunch Labourite and er union man, same as Geoff but neither of them push it. Er the centre's supposed to be totally non-political and if it ever got political, they'd close us down. The same as they did with the one in Bangor, they closed that down for being political. Er some of the comments political I suppose yeah. But there's no erm there's no sort of political influence at all. That I can see. But me being me, I could miss it. Because it goes straight over my head anyway. If it was subtle. Unless it was out and out screaming, Let's kill Thatcher, I wouldn't even notice it I don't think. [LAUGHTER] So you're asking the wrong person I'm afraid for that one. You you'd have to be very er very hard line for me to notice it. Ah yes. Yeah I'll have to go. [speaker001:] Thank you very much Ken. [Kenneth:] Excellent. Well I hope I've been of some help. [speaker001:] Yes you have indeed. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] in Europe er product. So we have an established base. Now obviously in Bracknell, Maidenhead and in the City, erm and as I said to you, we've recently opened er er an office in in Leeds er... to base our expansion in the North and up into Scotland. Erm well over a hundred staff and growing. Erm a comprehensive er training centre in all locations and a team of professional consultants.... Where are we? I mean any anybody services, which is probably the the background we came from, success on Wall Street. Er we now have applications in production areas in all those er in all those..... We own the street I think was the er one of the advertising campaigns that ran in America. Eighteen of the top twenty two market in the in the U S A... use. Not just use but have have built their their whole company I T strategy around. Er nearer to home we've recently have adopted a similar strategy of making their.... In the commercial names such as and are implementing solutions throughout their their whole store network., their manufacturing plant and process control depends entirely on products.... we've inherited from the states and er replicating throughout throughout throughout the U K and into Europe.... Government er for us in the U K and representations within er within the audience. Erm... Customs and Excise and Charity Commission, they're not just users, again they've chosen as a strategic partner for database development. Er and yes there's even a juggling busker from.... Solutions applications from Huw erm you'll hear more from one of er systems integration and and product developers later on in the day. we have our erm developing products.... We don't, we don't sell applications, but we develop the products on technology er in all those areas.... What I'd like to do now is hand over to Phill er Europe, talking to you the client server strategy and where we are today with our products.... [speaker002:] Garry.... What I'd like to do for the next twenty minutes... of the er of the seminar is talk about client server today. As Garry's already mentioned started back in nineteen eighty five and delivered its first products in eighty seven. It was fairly erm... revolutionary at the time in... in the fact it was really adopting a client server approach in network computing, and it was the first way to do that. So what I'd like to do is just discuss with you what we believe client server is as a combination of hardware and software and the architecture for delivering a client server solution. At the end of this part of the presentation we'll also see a short videotape which erm discusses the experiences of one of customers using this architecture.... When we talk about the Online Enterprise what really mean is the business needs of organizations in the nineteen nineties. And we believe there are several of them. One is the need for applications. Traditionally database management systems have been excellent at decision support. However they have had to prove their worth for online transaction processing. They were good at at at flexibly reporting on data through a relational model but has really delivered online transaction processing when it came to the market back in ninety eighty seven with its multi-threaded server architecture. What the customer's always looking for is distributed heterogeneous systems which means that the software that they are investing in is an architecture which is portable. So is an architecture which runs across multiple different types of hardware on server machines plus multiple such as desktop devices and across lots of heterogeneous networks. So we can really protect your investment in your present hardware infrastructure.... Something that a lot of other open systems vendors propose is a big bang approach to evolving to that type of architecture away from proprietary systems. is very different in that it it proposes a migrationary and evolutionary approach towards open systems. We can coexist with your present hardware and software environments. Now that's something which is unique to. So we're not proposing that you turn off the mainframe on Friday and turn on your Unix or open systems machines with your database on it on Monday. We're proposing that you integrate your presently existing investments in hardware and software and move over over time. And enables you to move your skillbase over a time as well. All of these things are really integrated through definition of a client server relational database management system, and that's what I'd really like to describe now.... Just to underline what I what I was saying. When we talk about online we're talking about the ability for the software infrastructure to support decision support and transaction processing. And just because the software you're using can do transaction processing it doesn't mean it can do decision support. They're very different requirements. Traditionally with relational database management systems companies would batch load data from the mainframe on maybe a a once a day or once a week basis and load that information onto the database systems and use it for decision support. We're talking about integrating both of those distinct and different requirements.... This this slide really sums up the mission or the goal of, which is the integration of yo all your information resource. If you look at the blue line in the middle of the slide then look to your right, each of those erm icons represents a source or service provider a server on the network. So for instance you may have already have a relational database management system, it may or may not be, but that information exists as a service or service provided on the network. There will also be non-relational data. Over ninety percent of the world's data is indeed not held in a relational database, and it may not be appropriate for all forms of information. So for instance you may have real-time. If you're a financial institution that might be or data, and if you're a manufacturing plant it might be process control information on P L Cs on the shop floor. You'll also have application services so in the office it might be email or you may have E D I talking to your suppliers. certainly applications. These are applications which you wrote ten years ago and they may have been written in a an old like COBOL, but they meet a business need and if they're meeting the business need day in day out then why should you replace them? So all of these things are service providers and provide information on the network. And goal or mission is to enable you to integrate that information seamlessly and deliver it to the desktop in a form which is appropriate to all of the users in the enterprise. So we for instance will enable you to use decision support tools against any of that information in a seamless manner. And that's not jus just decision support tools from, that's decision support from any of over two hundred front-end vendors which link into the architecture. You can really choose the best of the tools and technology for the best users. We'll also talk about the ability to integrate the information to application development through online transaction processing applications and the icon at the bottom representing software which I've just mentioned. Tools like Lotus One Two Three, like Microsoft Excel,, Datareive, Paradox, Dbase, the list goes on.... If we go back to the nineteen seventies or the early eighties and look at how we developed applications... we take an old language like maybe COBOL as an example. We might define the way we that application as four logical components. And that's on a host-based system on one machine. Those components would be presentation services which is... the man-machine interface or the way the application looks on the screen. That might be a thirty two seventy screen on a on a mainframe, it might be a G U I P C on a desktop. Behind that there'll be presentation logic which defines the way that the screen behaves based on user input. So if I press erm a function key on the keyboard what happens next on the screen, if I click the mouse on a certain icon on the screen what happens next. But the fundamental part of any application is what we call the transaction integrity logic or the business rules which actually model the way you want to do business. Which model your enterprise. So you look you look analysis of design er come up with er sort of elementary functions which you need to model inside the applications. And that's what we're talking about by transaction integrity logic. That's fundamental. And that becomes the arbitrator for requests for information for the data access mechanism, whatever that happens to me... be. It might be a, it might be a relational database management system, it might even be a hierarchical system. It could be any source of information within that application. So the challenge in the eighties was to say how you best split that processing of the application across the network to take advantage of the processing power and the mips of the server machines, the processing power and the strengths of the desktop device as well as minimizing the network traffic between those two types of er hardware. Traditionally other open systems vendors have taken this approach, which is to say we'll have the entire application on the desktop and we'll centralize the server resource on a server hardware machine. So we'll have a single S twelve query server, a relational database management system, which can be accessed from the applications on the database. Now there's a number of disadvantages to this traditional approach. One is the performance aspect because every time we need to access the relational database across the network we have to send a large piece of transactional logic, a piece of S Q L code, across the network, and that could be significant in size. We may have many hundreds of clients accessing that database all passing over large pieces of code, and obviously this Four G L code is not a message-based protocol, it is in fact a language which we're using in the wrong manner. So we can have a network bottleneck with many many users. But also the database is passive, it never knows which client is going to communicate with it next. It takes requests as and when they turn up and the server deals with them and res returns the results back to the client that requested that information. But the S Q L code which is sent to it has to be interpreted when it gets to the server machine, and we all know the difference between compiled and interpreted code. But the real disadvantage to this approach is in terms of the control of maintenance because as we've already said you'll have done analysis and design on these elementary but fundamental business functions which reside inside the application. If we decide to change the way we do business or change the way the application works on how it models our environment, then we have to revisit using this architecture every single client machine on the network and upgrade that particular business function. Now if you've got many hundreds of clients on the network that's a significant effort in terms of maintaining the code. And if that piece of code is fundamental to the application it may reside in several different routines within that code. So maintenance is a burden of this approach. But also control. If for instance erm Fred Bloggs at the end of the office is sick on Friday he turns off his P C at lunchtime and goes home and we do the software upgrade during the afternoon on Friday, then his P C won't get the upgrade to the software because we're sending it down the network. [Nellie:] [cough] [speaker002:] On Monday morning everybody starts posting data into the database through the application interface and Fred's posting in data at fifteen percent V A T, everybody else is posting in the data at seventeen and a half percent V A T. So we're looking at a two and a half percent margin. Now there's no way of telling inside the database where that incorrect data has come from. In fact we've lost the integrity of the database without knowing how we can resolve that. So we have a an application control and maintenance burden and problem with this architecture. So back in nineteen eighty seven looked at the application models of client server and network computing and said, How can we better address the needs of client server? And this is the architecture which all the products are based on. The client server software architecture from was revolutionary. And it has been proved to be the way to do client server software with all of the other major vendors now moving towards this type of implementation. So relational database is intelligent and programmable. It's not only a repository for relational data, it's also a repository for each of your business rules and business functions. So every er each elementary business function is stored in a central repository which can be accessed by each application on the desktop. So first of all performance is greatly improved cos we now have the S Q L or Four G L code stored inside the server and we send a message-based protocol across the network, a small request to invoke that rou routine or function from the repository and return the results. So we've greatly improved network performance and removed the bottleneck of the of the network. But also the the code which resides on the server, or or the server actually knows in advance now what all of those transactions and pieces of code are, therefore it can precompile that code. So again you have the difference between compiled S Q L and interpreted S Q L. But again the major advantage of this approach is in application maintenance and control. A major customer did er a bench mark recognizing that sixty percent of any project cost was taken up by maintenance of the code after it went live. So they actually bench marked the maintenance phase of the project and found this approach to be three hundred percent more productive than the approach we showed on the previous slide. Because if I want to change a business rule, rather than me visiting every single client on the network and upgrading that code I will re revisit it once on the server. That the code is centralized and is shareable and is refu reusable. If I change it once in one place only then automatically every program on the network is using the new version of the business rule. So we have an an extra control mechanism and maintenance and no version control issue.... So that's the er the architecture that is proposing to deliver client server. a a step back in time over the last five years of what has been delivering and there are many thousands of customers using in that manner. Each of the icons on this slide represents the four key components of that architecture in terms of the software... er products. The top right hand corner icon, the circle with a cone in it, represents multi-threaded SQL server. That is the the database with the repository for business rules. Top left represents SQL life cycle tools, which are tools which have has been delivering for the last three years which address each of the needs of the entire project life cycle. It includes case tools, it includes Four G Ls, report writers, end user tools, debuggers, operation control. So we can really address all of the project life cycle with own front end client development tools. But that is a choice which you make. is noted for its openness. Erm I've already talked about there are over two hundred front end tools which access or have integration with the database. So the icon in the bottom left hand corner represents open client A P I, open client application programming interface. Now for instance using that A P I, I could write a piece of C code, a piece of Three G L, which could access the database as if it was local to my machine on the client. The open client A P I would make the network seamless. It wouldn't exist as far as the programmer was concerned. Now that in itself is not unique, what is unique is because of our relationships with people like Microsoft who actually O E M and resell and O S Two, then many many of the P C and desktop Four G M and tools vendors vendors have aligned themselves behind that A P I. So we have a wealth of choice for you as customers in terms of for instance using tools which you're familiar with which you've already invested in. I'm not expecting you to invest in new technology to take advantage of this architecture. The bottom right hand corner represents another product which is unique to, which is the open server P I. The open server programming interface is almost a [Nellie:] [sneeze] [speaker002:] tool kit for writing gateways to other data sources.... So it enables me to integrate other alien data sources into the architecture. Take for example E D I or email. Using the open server I can integrate email into the architecture represented by this diagram. And because it has open server in front of it from the client's side it looks like a server, so any of those two hundred clients or any of front end tools can have access to the email system as if it was a resource or server. So I can for instance use erm Paradox or use Dbase as a front end to access and send email or E D I messages. So those are two third party tools that are integrated using client server architecture. But on top of being able to access any information resource inside your organization using open server, also deliver a set of off-the-shelf gateway products to integrate with other relational database systems. So we can provide you with off-the-shelf gateways which integrate these sources into the architecture from Oracle,, Infomix, R D B, R M S, D B Two, Unisys, Kix etcetera. So we can actually integrate most of the erm dominant relational databases that are out there or in your organization into this architecture to protect your investment in those technologies.... One of thems one of the er the gateways I just mentioned was the Open Server for Kix and the mainframe integration. approach is is to work with people like I B M. In fact you may have seen in the press er this week the announcement of a strategic relationship between and I B M, and we will talk about that briefly a bit later. But that is an endorsement of client server architecture. So we're not proposing that you turn off the mainframe on Friday and turn on open systems on Monday. We're saying let's integrate the mainframe, let's take advantage of the processing that it can do and its er strengths, and ye let's use it as a server which is available on a network in a client server architecture. So Open Server for Kix is an A P I, an application programming interface, which allows us to get at S Q L data on D B Two S Q L, but also allows us to get at any another database or application system which resides in. So you can really integrate any information which resides on the mainframe. That's just one example of the gain with solutions I've just mentioned.... At the beginning of the presentation I said that has really erm grown through recognition of its leading edge technology and its leading edge relational database management systems. We consider database to be online because it has a number of distinct features functionality. Enterprise capacity performance is the ability to do transaction processing in a relational database. But not just for one or ten users, but in a scalable manner for a hundred or many thousands of users. So we have a scalable solution. Server enforced integrity, we've already talked about the need for holding the business rules in a central repository with the data to protect that information but also to allow you to control the overall client server architecture... much more tightly. Application availability's obviously very important. If we're talking about using this sy er type of system for running mission critical systems where if the database goes down the business stops running and starts losing money, then we need to be able to run twenty four hours a day seven days a week. is designed to enable you to do that and in fact who are a key partner of actually O E M and retail on the hardware as S Q L two thousand. And if you're not familiar with they are a fairly extensive and fault tolerant hardware for ultimate twenty four hour a day seven day a week operation. That's a very good endorsement of erm online capabilities. And finally what we're also going to be talking about today is online distributed database management systems as we move towards enterprise-wide client server which we'll talk about in a lot more depth in the following presentations. Then we'll talk about how is delivering distri distributed functionality to enable you to use client server at the enterprise-wide level.... These have been the building blocks of client server. What I'd like to do now is erm show you a short video snap from a customer. There's many thousands of customers using worldwide. One of those is which is er er a financial institution in the City. And they're a strategic partner. So what I'd like to do without further ado is is move onto the video and show you a recommendation for products.... [video recordings] [speaker004:] I know it looks as though he was being filmed in a prison cell. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Erm I'd like to assure you that that wasn't in fact the case. Erm... the project erm that he referred to there has in fact now gone live and erm partly as a result of that are now investing further in products, by implementing a range of new projects on that same architecture. As it says I'm John I'm marketing director for Northern Europe with. What Garry and Phill have done so far is really tell you where stands today. But the main objective of the seminar is to show what we see as the route forward. Particularly to show how we're addressing the growing need for integrated information systems right across the enterprise. And we propose to do that by extending the traditional model of client server computing, the essentially departmental solution, across the enterprise to integrate multiple computer systems across multiple multiple. So my aim here is to talk about how we will address these needs which we see emerging er at an increasing pace through the nineties. I think probably many of you are familiar with the concepts that Phill described and what those concepts what the client server approach has done is to really bring about quite a revolutionary new breed of systems since the term was first coined in fact by in ninety eighty seven. In fact although sometimes the rate of progress or the pace of technology seems sort of frustratingly slow if you look at what has actually changed, what has been achieved over the last five years, it's quite incredible. The systems,, graphical user interfaces, the concept of database management systems, repositories of information which are accessible and shareable are really taken for granted in many organizations. But of course this technology software or hardware and indeed our requirements are not standing still. We're ready we believe to move forward from delivering primarily the solutions through to the next stage which is what we've termed enterprise-wide client server. And this next stage really offers some potentially huge benefits because what it can allow is the integration of the corporate information systems and the requirements of the corporation as a whole to manage and exploit its information resource. With the requirements needs and preferences of individual departments and individual users. So it promises to bridge the gap that still in fact exists in many if not most organizations between what happens at the local and individual level and what's happening at the corporate level. If we look at this client server model today one of the most significant advantages it delivers is that it allows us to run different kinds of applications on different computers. It means we've been able to choose the most appropriate hardware for the job. To take advantage of new technology as it comes along while still protecting and preserving our existing hardware investments. But in fact of course it's also there to fragmentation because either perhaps individual departments have exercised that freedom of choice to build systems [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker004:] that they want to use and operate and to reap any benefits that they require. But it hasn't really bitten into the issue of how we can control and operate and exploit the total environment. Benefits I think have been within the architecture is that M I S can now be more responsive to the users needs. For the users they can be more productive by exploiting the of choice. And hopefully the business as a whole in a competitive environment they can be more responsive more flexible to new requirements as they come along. Now as Garry has already shown, the client server software market is now seen as a backward growing sector of the software industry because client server has effectively become the standard way of architecting new systems. And in fact nineteen ninety three is really something of a pivotal year because according to at the beginning of ninety three probably something like forty percent of new applications built using the client server model. And this is going to rise to fifty percent by year end and as high as sixty five percent nineteen ninety five. And some research by foreign suggested that whilst this sector is worth a mere seven hundred million dollars a day, by nineteen ninety six the client server software market will reach seven point five billion dollars in size. Which is a growth of erm ten fold over three or four years. But the more important question is why? and to what benefit er this change might occur. Well increasingly we see that organizations are recognizing that effective use of information as a corporate resource manipulated and manageable as a whole can be of a tremendous competitive advantage and the client server has become the most effective way of exploiting and leveraging that resource. And of course has established itself as a leading player in this industry. We defined the model and we solved a generation ago many of the technology issues surrounding client server such as and so on that erm other software suppliers are now pushing to catch up on. But to fully achieve this potential for client server into the future across the enterprise raises for us some really quite difficult new challenges and demands for the software environment. As I've already hinted at even with our products and products most of our customers today in fact are implementing departmental systems. The departmental systems maybe mission critical in other words they may be important to them you know they may be necessary to doing business to getting out orders or what have you. They may be quite large an volume in terms of transaction rates or users. But typically they're dedicated to achieving a single business goal. or settlements or what have you. And so we still see separate departmental systems growing up and central I S groups not necessarily well integrated and well in control of this new generation of client server systems. In other words we've effectively rebuilt the island of information that we used to talk about five years ago and the key motivation behind enterprise client server is really to integrate the efforts of these two groups. Because recentralization of business my be a correct and and fashionable philosophy or perhaps one that is no longer fashionable I don't know it still needs we believe a global approach a coherent approach to tie these things together so the organization can not only get the benefit of responsiveness and flexibility at a departmental but the leverage to exploit that information on behalf of the organization as a whole. So the key requirement here is accurate and timely information available across the enterprise to the desktop of the users or the management which can potentially reflect the whole business requirements. And that's really the ultimate objective of enterprise client server. Now as we move from the departmental model to the enterprise model of client server computing, quite a few things to change. At the departmental level we might have ten a hundred possibly a thousand users but when we go enterprise-wide there may be thousands or many tens of thousands of users. Our users will no longer be tidily erm situated in building one country one department. They're likely to be geographically dispersed, nationally or internationally. And whereas with departmental approach we may have been satisfied with the ability to do extracts down from our corporate mainframe systems in the enterprise approach we'll look for proper and full integration of the mainframe as an integral part of the environment. In the departmental model as I've already said and often we will typically be looking at a single sweep of requirements a single business function. Essentially a stand alone area of the business. But ultimately those sectors of the business need to be integrated so our enterprise systems will be integrated corporate wide across mo multiple departmental functions. We may have been able to buy our departmental systems from a single vendor. A a server here and a few clients there networking in between and the systems may have been relatively small in terms of their total hardware capacity. But in the [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker004:] enterprise model it is inevitable that our information will be coming from multiple vendors and our data will be in heterogeneous data sources. There will be multiple databases erm databases, relational databases, mainframe databases and external. And also we will encounter new types of users, new erm and users will be different in terms of their erm literacy if you like. They will be different in terms of the sort of interaction they expect to have with computer depending on whether they're data entry people or management users and maybe some of our users are people in the street, our customers er who who will increasingly become users of systems themselves. So whereas in the past we may have been able to think of single user types and single solutions to meet those users. Using single devices be they terminals or erm perhaps Microsoft Windows in the future we'll need to categor deal with the different categories of users and the different devices they have to deal with. And don't forget that our users may not even speak the same language as we take our systems enterprise wide.... So in migrating to architecture we're very much focused on what are the real world problems and the real challenges that we need to face to deliver effective and workable solutions. And we need we need to make sure that we don't embark upon this new plan based on a whole pile of suppositions which in fact er lie in a world of fantasy. Er this erm world of fantasy is a very wonderful place because in this world it's very easy to meet peoples' I T requirements. It's certainly inhabited by some and it's certainly inhabited by some. Of course in fantasy land it's very easy to build computer systems. Once you've built your computer system it will run all the time certainly all the time. All the data will live in a nice tidy fashion in a single relational database but what happens. In fantasy land there are no politics so everyone can quite happily agree on how to things and agree on common. And we can impose solutions on our on our users, you know, You users can all have P Cs, you can all have erm dumb terminals. we can decide what you want to use. In fantasy land if we ever have to replace our systems we can of course simple switch off the old one and switch on the new one.. And er in fantasy land erm if you're responsible for I T you're of course very secure in your job you're a very happy employee because vendors will always come along and solve all your problems and ensure your personal security and success. Well... we hope that erm by coming here you've demonstrated that you don't live in fantasy land so I'd like to welcome you to the real world and in the real world we know that open systems despite the progress they've made still struggle to replace the mainframe. And even where they have the technology capabilities to start doing this there is clearly little point in replacing an existing system with a new one which simply does the same thing. Even though open systems may be able to meet requirements at a lower cost than perhaps the traditional proprietary systems, if you've already paid for the traditional proprietary system, clearly there is no saving to be made by throwing it away and replacing it with the equivalent functionality on new technology. In the real world there is undoubtedly no such thing as an organization of any size or substance that can say, All my data lives in one source. We actually erm sometimes conduct a little informal surveys in our seminars and meetings as to how many information sources exist in organizations. And these sources will be things like spreadsheets,, relational databases our own and our competitors, and filing systems like R M S, er I M S er databases whatever. The answer is never one the minimum we've come across in an organization is two the typical is five to ten and in some organizations it's going on fifteen. And the number is not likely to reduce as the scope of spreads and as we're offered new technologies, software technologies by vendors. In the real world our users have different requirements and are not going to be slow to tell us what they are. In the real world systems and networks fail so there are times when our systems are not available. And that may be okay in a departmental level but when I had an integrated global enterprise operating in integrated fashion around an integrated I T system then clearly I cannot afford to allow a failure to actually paralyze the system. Of course I have to say that er software fails as well sometimes and indeed one of the problems we all have is that with today's hardware technologies some of the er computers are so fast that it really reaches the bugs rather quicker. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Erm there still is no way of designing and managing distributed systems. I've actually taken something of an interest in this over the years and there's no substantive which tells you how to optimize and plan a distributed system in terms of what you do when. And the final point is that vendors will not be able to solve your problem. The decision you make today about which vendor you go with and which technology you go with may be the right decision today and yet may may be the wrong decision tomorrow. You only have to look back over what's er happened over the last few years in terms of for example O S Two, Microsoft Windows, a variety of Unix, and you'll see that technologies will come along and however sound a decision you make at one point in time the market circumstances and potentially mean that what was right for you then not the right. This is the world we have to live with and find a way. So we can view the requirements for enterprise client server really in terms of some paradoxes, and the paradoxes arise because of the conflict between what we actually want to achieve and the constraints of the real world. We would like to have well proven technology, because our systems need to be reliable. And yet we want to be able to exploit new opportunities and new technologies as they come along to get the best out of our systems for our businesses. We will want to be able to build high capacity systems so going to take on the class of applications that have traditionally been associated with a mainframe. And one interesting thing is that as we integrate that system as we double the number of users our requirements the loading on our system may go up by a factor of four. It's kind of an exponential relationship about systems bigger. In fact I've often said that if you show me a system which doesn't have a performance problem then you've shown me a system which is a failure. Because successful systems attract more use and more workload. So we need to build our systems to meet the requirements we have today because we couldn't justify more and yet we have to build in the scale scaleability so that systems can grow to meet the growing requirements which are almost inevitable. The systems need to be capable of integrating and inter-operating with these different technologies. So they need to provide transparent access across technologies and deal with the multi-vendor requirements. In fact er Dan who is the president of the corporation which is one of the sort of user pressure groups in the open systems world has said that, Integration is the highest cost component of nay I T system. For every dollar you spend on software, he alleges that you'll spend between one and a half and two dollars simply on getting that software to work the other software you have. In other words perhaps fifty percent of the spending on I T is wasted in inverted commas because it's simply concerned with tying together what you already have with the new stuff that you want to integrate in. The systems have got to deliver data reliably otherwise they're not of any value at all and yet they're going to have to deal with unpredictable events such as network failure, software failures, hardware failures, user failures or whatever. And we want to be able to provide the controllability that we achieve traditionally through centralization in the mainframe environment in what will inevitably be a distributed world. And our systems need to be consistent because in that way we can manage and control them and yet they need to deal with the variable requirements of our different categories of users. So we'd like our systems to be low risk, to be scalable, to be inter-operable, to be reliable, controllable and and yet still be able to face all the challenges of the of the enterprise client server environment. So that's really the challenges which way the client interacts and what today's er event is about. In the second half we'll be describing how our er new generation of products really seek to address each of those challenges. summary the system architecture which is the focus of today's seminar is really an er a complete environment within which we can deal with the challenges of this new generation of enterprise client server applications. And the underlying here is to provide the control and reliab [tape change] [Nellie:] ... we've achieved our er our aim in the first half of the seminar. Leading on to the second half I'd er very quickly like to introduce you to Huw er from er one of the U K's if in fact er worldwide now leading er leading developers of of financial software, and he will be er talking to th talking through to you his experiences er in developing with.... [speaker005:] Thank you.... Thank you Garry. Er good morning ladies and gentlemen.... I'd like to spend erm a few minutes, hopefully not too long because I'm er known for talking for hours and hours when it comes to our company and our product, but hopefully just a few minutes telling you about our approach to developing an open accounting system. If we go back about... two years, a little bit more than two years now, we sat down and considered those areas which were most important to us in developing a new accounting package. First of all we wanted that product to be totally open, and I'll qualify in a minute or two a little bit more what I mean by totally open. I think at the moment suffice to say we wanted a product that would give ourselves and our users total choice and total flexibility. It was important to us in developing a new system now that we are very much of a worldwide supplier of accounting solutions, that we make it truly useable in all countries of the world. Now I struggled to come up with a good word or phrase to describe that, but the one we use for now is multicultural. And I'll go into that area in a little bit more detail in a few minutes. It should be a totally integrated solution, both from the point of view of the accounting application itself, and also the way that we inter-operate with the other applications in a user organization. We were conscious as well that in venturing into this brave new Unix world that... accountants being fairly boring individuals, I mean how many accountants do I have in the audience today? I can say that reasonable safely and I can apologize to those people who put their hands up, by saying that I too am c am an accountant by background, and it's fairly brave of me to admit that in front of so many I T people. But we were conscious that an accounting system maintains the corporate financial information and we must protect the integrity of that information. So we must transcend those erm opportunities for security within Unix and ensure that our application will maintain the integrity of data within the system. And finally, and I can't emphasize this strongly enough, in developing our open accounting product we developed a totally new application. We started with a clean sheet of paper, we didn't start with one of our earlier proprietary products and try and convert that to Unix, try to move that into the open systems world. Our approach to accounting has always been one of a a truly integrated nature, and that approach fits like a hand in a glove with relational database technology. So the arrival and use of relational databases has been absolutely perfect for our approach to development of accounting systems. I mentioned a moment ago that we seek er total choice and total flexibility in the utopian open systems world. And the only true way that we can achieve that and that we can deliver that is by adhering to the emerging industry standards. Now on this slide we have a hexagon, there are six probably important facets in terms of standards which we should follow or adopt in the development of the product. If I start at the top with the user interface, then clearly we should use or employ a graphical user interface. In developing a product these days everybody's been very used to using P Cs, using graphical user interfaces, the idea of a mouse, drop- down menus, so on and so forth, and we should employ that technology. And the standard we chose ooh some two years ago was O S F Motif. Now that has clearly been the right choice given that I think Motif has clearly achieved the ascendant over open look. Moving round the picture, networking. Well we should use X-networking standards, and at the moment if a network complies to T C P I P as the communications protocol then we can work with that. And we'll actually look in a minute or two at the different aspects of the application, the different layers of the product, and how those communicate. On documents we must bear in mind with the development of any system that we should support true electronic data interchange. We should have a good and straightforward mechanism for importing documents into our system and exporting documents from our system. And the standard we've chosen to adopt there is Edifact. Now that's probably er one of the least well-defined areas for standards, and I mean if you say Edifact to er a North American user they'll look a bit puzzled, if you say it to somebody who knows something about Edifact they'll say, Which Edifact standard is that? But er those are gradually converging and we believe that's the correct choice. On operating systems we wanted to be as truly hardware independent as we can, so we have chosen to operate potentially under any Posix-compliant operating system, so that gives us all the flavours or brands of Unix and a number of proprietary mid-range operating systems which are achieving Posix compliance as time goes by. Even I B M have stated that O S Four Hundred on the A S Four Hundred will be Posix compliant erm oh certainly within the next twelve months if not somewhat earlier now. Far more relevantly to today's conversations and our host, is the question of databases. As I identified a minute or two ago, our approach to computerizing accounting applications fits hand in glove with the concept of relational database. We need a relational database to store our accounting data in, and whilst our overall approach is that we will work with potentially Ansi S Q L compliant relational database, I would like to emphasize that has been our primary development environment over the last two years. And as a brief but final point on there, what language did we develop our product in? Because we are er developers of a core accounting package which we hope will have many many hundreds of users before the end of this decade, we didn't want to rely on the vendor of a particular Four G L, so we've written our product in C to retain that independence within there.... So we've identified a number of standards which we work within, standards for operating system, for database and for user [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] interface. And those lead very clearly into another technology, client server architecture, which we've already touched on a number times during our presentation so far this morning. And I'd like to explain since we find ourselves in the real world, rather than fantasy land, how we've approached the subject of client server. If we start off by considering the accounting application as an object developed in C sitting there in the middle of the screen, we need the ability to talk to the users through a graphical user interface. We need the ability to address the relational database in which we hold our data. And delivered as an integral part of the application are two utilities to give us as much flexibility in achieving that goal as possible. In terms of the user interface, we have an X emulator and controller, XEC as we fondly know it by, erm in order to talk to the user through the users desktop device. Now we're conscious that there are a number of desktop devices available to us today and I'll go into these a little bit more in a moment, and that we want to support concurrent users of many different type of device. And in using Motif and using potentially X terminals as as the most elegant method of delivering that functionality, we can control X and we can emulate X on certain other types of device. Looking at the database our programmers in writing the central application and in developing and enhancing that application, are at one level totally independent at the functional level are totally independent of the underlying database technology. And our database controller understand and knows and talks to the database layer at the bottom. So if that database for example is there is no constraint within the way we use our system or the way we develop our system or indeed the way our system will develop in the future and the way capabilities will develop in the future. Because we're using our database controller to read and to write that database, as more function becomes available, more features become available within the server, the ideas of replication servers and so on an so forth as time goes by, we will be able to exploit that technology or more importantly you as users will be able to exploit that that that technology. I think the the concept I want to get across is that the design of the application does not constrain the way that you implement, firstly a client server technology and secondly the use of your chosen relational database management system. So by separating these individual items of the application, the presentation layer, the application layer and the database layer, we I suppose to say we don't care is the wrong word, we don't mind how much client server or how little client server you want your particular application to be. And indeed if if we broaden the picture out a little bit, and we've talked about the user interface and the relational database, clearly an accounting system can't stand alone. At the left hand side of my diagram we have a number of other applications existing in your environment which need to either provide information to the accounting system, a simple example might be a payroll application passing payroll costs across on a batch basis, it may be a sales order processing system passing invoice information across in real time interactively and indeed requesting information from the accounting application. So we have a powerful set er of open access tools to truly integrate the N application with the other systems running in your environment. And finally to to complete this particular picture, picking up again on a theme that was introduced earlier on, we are using proprietary relational database technology, so there are many other tools which are available to you, for example the ability of Lotus One Two Three to go directly into the database, pull information out, present it in a spreadsheet, present it graphically. Many other tools many other applications for example Forest and Trees, which are all capable of directly accessing the database. So the application is concerned with maintaining the accounting data and maintaining the integrity of that data but you have absolute flexibility in the tools that you use to access it and manipulate it and present it in your organization. And the way that you do that is going to depend on the sort of device which you have on your desk. Now again because of our approach we don't mind what kind of device you use. Arguably the most er elegant delivery of an O S F Motif type graphical user interface is through an X-windows terminal, but I wouldn't imagine very many of many of you have X-windows terminals. They tend to be fairly large and fairly expensive devices. We see an awful lot of people have got a tremendous investment in traditional character cell terminals and by a character cell terminal I mean a dumb terminal of twenty four lines of eighty characters. Erm I [LAUGHTER] if I was talking to an audience in the United States, you'd probably have a somewhat different approach cos over there they seem to throw their desktop devices away every two or three years and replace them with brand new technology. In the U K we seem to keep the equipment for twenty years and then complain if it goes wrong before we have to throw it away. So on a character cell terminal, through our X emulator and controller, we can deliver a [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] Motif style user interface, even on a character terminal. Clearly the degree of definition we can go to is only one character, but we have drop down menus we have the ability to move pop up windows and dialog boxes, the ability to scroll horizontally and vertically within those windows, and the ability to emulate the use of a mouse by the use of arrow keys and the numeric keypad on an ordinary character terminal. So we can deliver a consistent graphical user interface across a number of different devices in your organization, used concurrently with the accounting application. And in between the P C which we find on many peoples desks may be emulating a character terminal, may be emulating erm an X-terminal to provide that user interface to an individual. Now I think in our experience so far we find that erm the accounts clerks in the back office are those who are most likely to be bashing away at the character terminals, those are the people who are bashing data into the system. And they understand those devices and work with them very well, they're not particularly interested in a mouse and all sorts of graphical facilities because their job in life is to get information quickly into and quickly out of the system. Many people in a management position maybe using P Cs on their desk, I mean those move more and more into the organization as people work with spreadsheet people work with electronic mail and so on and so forth, and the ability to use the P C as their terminal, their window into the accounting application, but secondly they have these tools such as spreadsheets which again are able to directly access the database and the accounting data maintained within it. So in performing a particular query there are many ways of skinning a cat. Somebody may use standard enquiry facilities within the accounting system, they may use the report writing tools that are provided with the accounting system or they may use other things, Forest and Trees, Lotus, Excel, so on and so forth which run on their P C which they know and which they love. And it may be entirely appropriate to use any one of those for one style of enquiry depending on the preferences of the individual, that's what we mean by flexibility and freedom of choice, we don't want to constrain a particular individual to working in a certain way. I can't resist the temptation while I'm here just to tell you one or two things about the accounting application. Er because I don't have a group of accountants in front of me I'm not going to go on about debits and credits and so on and so forth. But just to consider one or two aspects which we mentioned earlier on as being important to us. In working in years gone by with proprietary applications we've been able to rely to a large extent on security facilities provided by the operating system. We can no longer realistically do that in the open systems world. So we need to ensure that we provide security at a number of levels, accounting type security which may be er the the limit to the amount I can write off in a cash in a cash matching process for example. Functional security, which is going to give me effectively er access restriction to the system by the menu options the drop down menu choices. Taking that level of security down to individual data items, what what areas of my chartered account can I update what areas can I look at? And that's important to us because we can give erm people who are responsible for a particular department full and immediate access to the data which relates only to their department and not the wider organization. But we do need to consider a couple of other areas. One which I've defined there with the word views. We are aware that we can control the method of access by users though our application, but there are other tools they are using in in the company to access the corporate relational database and your database controller must be aware of those tools and implement the same controls on those views of that information within the database. And very importantly to the accountant, the way that we can ensure that we maintain the integrity of the accounting data, is by exploiting checksum techniques in the database to ensure that the only valid way of u of updating the accounting data is through the accounting application and that's it's therefore properly secure and properly audit trailed. I mentioned culture briefly earlier on er I'd like to define that a little bit better by saying we want a user sitting down in any part of the world to be able to use the product which we develop and feel that it is an accounting application developed for their world and their market place. Not an American product which is being bent to their requirements, not an English product which is being bent to their requirements. And there are immediately two areas which are very obvious and straightforward, those of currency and language. We must for example be able to use concurrent users of the same accounting information in many different languages. But we need to take our consideration beyond that a little way in thinking about the accounting customs and legal requirements of the different countries. The taxation needs, it's not just V A T it varies in the European Community, it where it varies in a wider Europe and the world at a whole. So we need to be able to address those different requirements. And one which we o often overlooked was dealing properly with the different banking requirements of other parts of the world. I mean back in the early nineteen eighties when we sold our first er system abroad we were quite surprised to find out that the French didn't have a road called Edgeware Road and an organization called B A C S on it. We need to ensure that we can comply with the banking mechanisms of the different parts of the world. Another strength of using proprietary relational database technology is that we can use many report writers which are available to access that database, not only the accounting data but potentially all of the corporate data to pull out not only accounting reports but reports which combine information as necessary, partly from the accounting system, partly from the sales order processing system, partly from the inventory system, whatever they may be. And so within our accounting database we'll have various types of master file information, transactions, balances, some of that information may have been archived but still be available to us. With a single relational report writer we can gain ready and easy access to all of that information.... A very brief commercial, just a little bit about. Erm I mean is a a British private limited company. Erm I'm actually based in our Harrogate office which is our corporate worldwide headquarters, we consider that to be the centre of the universe. But over the years as an organization we've grown organically and geographically quite significantly, such that while in the U K we're in Harrogate and Basingstoke, we have an ever increasing presence in North America, Europe, the Far East and Australasia. And our philosophy as a truly worldwide supplier of accounting software is that we should increase our presence in different parts of the world as our sales and marketing activity there merits it. We've seen a very controlled and steady growth over the thirteen years that we've been in business and I think as you can see there year on year we have consistently increased turnover and increased profitability. So to give you an idea of our size although we may be a little bit smaller than last year we turned over some eighteen million pounds and declared a profit before tax of just over three point one million pounds. One of my slides that didn't appear there, erm we're just going to mention one or two other points on erm our customer base. Now the open systems world is a very new world to us, we have three earlier proprietary products, the first of which we started selling in nineteen eighty. And we actually have more than eight hundred and fifty users of our accounting software installed in more than forty countries worldwide. And to tie in to a couple of things mentioned earlier on. I noticed that amongst our user list we count, an organization called and we also count an organization called. So clearly many of the things do are very right and very appropriate and probably one of the rightest was to choose accounting software on which to er prepare their corporate accounts. Thank you very much for listening to me patiently, I said I would try to keep that down to erm a fairly brief session. What I would like to do now is to reintroduce Phill who addressed us a little bit earlier this morning who's going to tell us a little bit more about enterprise client server solutions. Phill, over to you.... [speaker002:] Thank you.... We've heard a lot this morning er about the merits of client server and where it's come from in the last five years. Before the break John talked about erm some of the requirements for moving that architecture towards erm... the enterprise-wide solution. So what I'd like to do right now is explain how System Ten will be the way to deliver enterprise client server solutions. And I'll do this by describing each of the System Ten products that resolve the paradoxes of the I T department. We mentioned earlier the paradoxes which were that for instance erm we're looking for a low risk investment or our customers are looking for a low risk investment, they tell us they need well proven technology but that needs to be advanced technology. SQL Server is flagship product. It's the foundation for client server and other products in the family. It's well proven having been shipped since nineteen eighty seven but provides new advanced technology with the new System Ten release.... We talk about for instance reliable data delivery and transaction delivery. We need to be able to do business whether or not the network is unavailable or whether or not the system fails, we still need to make business decisions. Based on best available information. Replication server is a way to guarantee data delivery where it's needed and when it's needed. And we'll come on to talk about that in a lot more depth during the presentation. We talk about scaleability if we are indeed to entice mainframe style applications towards the open systems platforms then we need to behilosophy as a truly worldwide supplier of accounting software is th software components with a low entry cost. Navigation server is designed to handle massive amounts of data and users, but is still totally scalable from very small machines. We talked about each department erm being able to invest in their own technology and make their own er decisions on what sort of database or interface they would use to deploy their applications. But if we grow a client server towards the enterprise solution, we've already talked about the straw pole that we often do where it indicates to us that the average number of er data repositories or data sources in an organization is more than ten. So our customers are looking for multi-vendor transparency. Omni SQL Gateway provides transparent access to homogeneous and heterogeneous data sources. We also talked about the need to be able to control this vastly more complex new environment as if we were controlling a mainframe. with System Ten has announced a family of control servers which will enable us to control this network of servers and clients as if it was a single machine. And finally in terms of prod productivity each of our users have varied requirements, but we need to provide them with a consistent solution. Enterprise client sar server tools erm is a very important part of strategy. With acquisition of Gain multimedia tools and the unveiling of a leading edge tool strategy in June of this year, should now be considered as a major player in the tools arena. Providing tools that empower the user with all of the data which is available through the System Ten architecture in a form which is appropriate to all of the users.... During the rest of the presentation what I will endeavour to do is describe each of the components of the System Ten architecture which is represented by this slide. Before I do that I'd like to describe SQL Server Ten which is the cornerstone of client server solution.... SQL Server as we said is well proven technology, it's been around about five years. Five thousand customers have written many thousands of mission critical business applications using the SQL Server. It's designed from day one to address client server. It incorporates technology which our competitors are only now putting in their solutions. Still procedures, triggers, and R P Cs. The new release of SQL Server SQL Server Ten is a hundred percent Ansi compliant. So we have such facilities as cursors, and Ansi declarative referential integrity. And that's not to say that they replace triggers, because they are actually have a very important role to play in terms of being able to er maintain arbitrary business rules and model the way your organization works, inside the database repository. I'm going to be talking a bit more later in the presentation about back up and back up performance which is one of the key areas which erm organizations trying to support very large databases have come across as a as a as a major stumbling block or hurdle to get across. And have er implemented something called the backup server to get over that hurdle in the System Ten release. Also the SQL Server Ten incorporates C two level security we also have a B one compliant database for government applications. So we're have in such things as password encryption and auditing. And these are sorts of facilities which we'll will need if we're going to erm enable central I S or I T departments to use and therefore charge back that facility to each of the departments using that resource. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] But SQL Server alone will not address all the needs of enterprise- wide client server. It needs to evolve in several ways to meet these needs.... As I go through the rest of the presentation you'll see erm the agenda slides highlighting the area of the architecture we're talking about in the section. So right now I'm going into a section talking about distributed servers. During the nineteen seventies a lot of research work was done on distributed database technology by such people as I B M, Digital, and other database pioneers such as. Their intention was focused on some of the huge benefits that distributed database might deliver. And these expected benefits were things such as performance, data could reside closer to its point of most frequent use. And multiple databases could act in parallel. It included such things as reliability. With centralized systems, if the computer goes down, the entire system goes down, but we still need to make business decisions. With distributed database systems we could continue with a couple of things mentioned earlier on. I noticed that amongst our us includes capacity and scaleability since a database could span multiple machines, the capacity of any one machine would no longer limit the database size.... These needs lead to a number of different database technologies which are represented on this slide, and the first one I'd like to focus on is replication.... Replication meets the need for reliability in a distributed environment. Whereas businesses are moving to more and more decentralized operations, business units still need to have instantaneous access to information. Access to data wherever they are no matter what location. Distributed transactions guarantee that data at each node is synchronized as it changes. A global model of the business delivered to who needs it when they need it where they need it. But as I've already mentioned distributed database theory has been around a long time. The model suggested has not met with widespread acceptance. It doesn't necessarily address all of the needs of the real world.... At we believe there are two types of distributed database application. There are those where mission critical business decisions can only be made based on absolute up to date information. These applications require absolute synchronization of related data at every site in the distributed database. And for this we would use Two Face Commit technology. Two Face Commit for those who're not pu er familiar with it is an all or nothing approach. If any one node in the distributed database is unavailable, the transaction will not complete on any other. If we took an example of a of a launching of the space shuttle. In those types of applications those types of systems, we cannot afford inavailability of information we need to invest significant sums of money if fault tolerant hardware in mirrored disks in duplex networks. This investment can only be justified for systems where transactions have a huge value to that business. Two Face Commit is the software technology that supports these types of systems.... has had Two Face Commit technology for five years in support of that style of application. However we believe there's a second type of distributed database application more appropriate for general commercial use. Very few organizations the first model due to its prohibitive cost. Replication Server takes a revolutionary approach to distributed database for those organizations who don't need absolute data synchronization but the nee need the advantages of up to date data at ll of its points of most frequent use. The need reliable data delivery in the event of system failures without the prohibitive cost of fault tolerant hardware. Replication server is based on our primary subscriber model. Each subscriber on the network, we might represent the primary as the server on the left and the other two server as subscribers. Each subscriber registers its interest in a data item on the primary replication server. The primary replicates data changes or transactions to subscribers as updates or inserts occur on that primary server. So this model uses a loose synchronization. There's a latency between the primary changing and the secondary data changing since the primary will change and then we replicate across the network to each secondary location. But that's measured in fractions of seconds. And this is e such facilities as [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] I'd now like to talk about high capacity and solution for that requirement in enterprise-wide client server. Often in the open systems arena applications will grow beyond the capacity of any single machine. Traditionally when systems have grown this large companies have employed proprietary solutions, hardware software combinations. And these systems lose the advantages of open architecture for instance we talked about having over two hundred front end tools accessing database. And are typically good at either online transaction processing or decision support but not a combination of both. And without this capacity how can we expect large scale mainframe users to down-size or right-size into open systems.... response to these requirements is rep is navigation server. Navigation server is a software extension to the S Q L Server. It optimises it for distributed massively parallel processing. It creates the appearance of a single virtual machine on a network. However in fact behind a navigator or a navigation server there will be any number of SQL Servers working on parallelized S Q L. Now this solution provides us with total linear scaleability, as we run out of processing power we will add another node to the environment and take advantage of all of the processing power of that node using parallel S Q L.... This is a hundred percent software solution it's not a hardware software combination. Developed on S V R four with N C R. And it's a key point that this is a combination of work which have done with N C R and the first release of Navigation Server will be available on the N C R thirty six hundred architecture. Which enables us to have many hundred erm Intel processors in a single hardware cabinet. So we would run many SQL Servers with a Navigation at the front. But other platforms will come in the future so we can see us using sta very low cost standard hardware components, we might stack up erm half a dozen or a dozen erm workstations with a high speed interconnect between them each running a SQL Server. We've now created this virtual machine which is no longer constrained by the absolute size of any one component within that machine. And we can add workstations to that virtual machine as we need more processing power. So we have high capacity with low entry cost using standard components.... So we're now able to support mainframe class applications with thousands of users in this data centred type database running thousands of applications with a mixture of decision support and online transaction processing. As we've already suggested this is a cost effective solution it is a software only solution and enables us to use lots of erm low cost hardware components. I we come back again to those distributed database issues and tackle transparency. As I as we've said this is a requirement which is consistent with enterprise-wide client server. As we expand the client server architecture to become a universal solution we will need to integrate more diverse sources of information. We will need to leverage our customers existing investments in other technology. We will need to provide an evolutionary approach to migrating from one technology to another so we're not forcing our customers down the fantasy land alternative.... John's already stolen my thunder on the straw poll erm that I was going to do but suffice to say that we normally do that at these types of seminars and there's always a few people in the room who put their hands up and say they've got more than ten data sources in their organization. And if truth be known there are many more in that audience. In the real world we have to recognize that we cannot convert customers to only use the database. We must be able to provide a level of transparency that shields users and the programmers from not only where the data is stored but in which relational database management system. solution is Omni SQL Gateway no other product delivers the level of transparency that Omni provides. Omni SQL Gateway provides complete location and vendor transparency. All the clients on the network are programmed using a single dialect of S Q L so our programmers no longer have to know the nuances and differences between each of the proprietary extensions of the SQL of each database they're programming against. They s use a single a dialect which is Transact S Q L S Q L implementation. All of the sources on the on the network look like so for instance I can do joins across two heterogeneous R D B M Ss. you can have a table with departments in, employee's in Oracle, and salaries in D B two and I could use a single select statement and join all that information together in a single request to the Omni SQL Gateway. But what I can also do is leverage the power of client server extensions to S Q L. We talked about pioneering efforts in stored procedures and triggers. I can actually use Omni SQL Gateway and write stored procedures stored procedures against all of the data sources it supports including for instance D B two. So I'm not limited because I'm by the lowest common denominator of other gateway approaches. And because the Omni SQL Gateway looks identical to a SQL Server on the network we still have the ability to integrate and front end tool. So I still have over two hundred front end tools which can... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] access data from the Omni SQL Gateway which actually has physical data stored in many different types of vendor's repositories.... A wonderful example for today since we're in Leeds is er United Leeds it also e such facilities as typically they're very used to the mainframe environment and what the mainframe environment offers. The mainframe is a single machine sitting in a darkened room. It's easy to control. It's a single physical piece of hardware. It's technology which is mature, it's been around about thirty years, and there's lots of good sophisticated control tools for managing that environment. As we move to the brave new world of client server we're talking about a technology which is indeed fairly immature, is more difficult to control, and is essentially quite complex. As we move towards wide area networks of servers then we have something which is a very sophisticated system for delivering information. One of partners is Stores who are implementing a strategic store-based application which involves having an R S six thousand in every single shop with a SQL Server on every single box. With three hundred and sixty SQL Servers, there's no way they're going to have a D B A in every store. What they need is centralized control as if they had a single mainframe. So aim with our control servers is to deliver mainframe controllability in an open distributed environment. One of the components of the control server family is the backup server which is part of the SQL Server Ten release. Traditionally open system database backups have been constrained by the speed of any one backup device. The backup server that is providing at release ten has or employs device striping to provide linear scaleability of the backup to multiple da tape and disk devices. So I could have for instance thirty two tape devices running in parallel to back up my database. So for instance if my backup window is an hour and that's how long it take me to backup my database today, if had the backup server and I was using one device it took an hour, if I used two it would learn one dialect of S Q L. [side one of second tape ends] as [speaker001:] [sneeze] [speaker005:] incorporating in partnership with Tivoli such standards as D M E and D C E which Tivoli indeed helped to define. So this incorporates controllability of the network, the hardware as well as the database architecture.... Earlier we described a paradox which was that each user or group of users has a different need for information and the way that is presented to him. Furthermore this is compounded by the wealth of different types of desktop devices for presentation of information. What I'd like now like to do is to describe some of the components of tools strategy to enable and empower us to deliver enterprise-wide client server solutions.... However... no matter what the user or device requirement there is a requirement for one thing and that remains critical and constant. And that requirement is productivity. Back in the nineteen seventies computer hardware was very expensive and difficult to use. Only highly trained professionals dared to interact with a computer. In the nineteen nineties with the tumbling costs of hardware we can adv afford to provide more and more people in our enterprise-with access to a computer or the information within in. And this simply shifts the cost of providing that solution to an investment in the people and not the computer hardware. So we need to train them to use our systems and we need to be concentrating on the productivity not just of the programmer which is traditional what we've done with Four G Ls but the productivity of the end user. The user community will run into thousands and thousands and therefore this is our biggest investment in our I T infrastructure.... Today in many large organizations we'll see three generations of desktop delivery mechanism, the old dumb terminal, the thirty se tw thirty two seventy dumb terminal for instance. Delivering character based data to the desktop. People have then migrated towards using G U I typically at departmental level. They'll have standardized on one particular G U I delivery mechanism. Which is traditionally you know Windows Three, Open Look or Motif, maybe O S Two. And then into the future where will that G U I capability lead us? Well we've already talked briefly and we've seen a video about Gain Multimedia and how that might enable us to address application requirements in a different way. With applications that actually look like the way you do business.... And traditionally these three types of delivery mechanism mean we have to rewrite or recode applications in their entirety for each type of device. That's further compounding the maintenance burden on the I T department or the information systems provider. has three components to its client architecture to address the needs of the different users and the different devices. Each component has been announced as part of the System Ten announcement and in fact A P T and Gain Multimedia are available in production today. In June will be announcing a complete architecture which welds these technologies together, providing an object based integrated environment for all user requirements and device types. So indeed we do not need to rewrite applications for each different type of device or user. Well what we'd like to do now is just try and address each of those different Four G Ls in the architecture. First is A P T which is essentially a heads down data entry facility. So that me we may have for instance erm order entry clerks entering many many orders per day. They actually don't spend too much time looking at the screen, they're actually using dumb terminals to enter data very quickly. And therefore we have a low cost er per seat of entering that information into the system. That's a procedural thing, we do one thing, we do another then we do the other, then we come back and do it again. And that type of application is very well erm very well used by dumb terminal applications. Enterprise G U I will enable us to take advantage of erm G U I desktop devices such as Windows Three. This is a type of environment used by decision makers where they may be working on one piece of information in the application and they need to make a decision based on an information which is elsewhere in the application. So they'll move from one window to another make a decision on that information in the other window and come back to what they were doing before. This is a non procedural approach to making decisions based on the information inside the system which has been entered by the dumb terminal users the heads down data entry. And for this we would use object based technology, object oriented technology to enable us to have this business processes modelled inside the desktop. And for the future of applications we talked about Gain and Multimedia and what that might deliver in applications that look like your business. Where we can deliver applications where the users actually don't need training. This is a self training interface.... Enterprise G U I... is a tool which is presently in development er which is subject to an announcement in the June timeframe and in fact actually at the next customer update which is providing erm in June. It's a repository based G U I development environment which is using object based technology. It enables us to develop application on for instance Windows Three and exploit all of the functionality and features of Windows and deploy on Open Look, Motif and Macintosh. It will... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] enable us to develop applications on Macintosh, taking advantage of all the features of Macintosh and deploy on Windows, Motif and Open Look. And that is a G U I environment which is robust and native. We don't emulate Windows Three in Open Look, we don't emulate the Macintosh on Windows Three. We use all of the native widget sets so we're not using the lowest common denominator approach. But one thing which makes this product stand out from the crowd is its ability to to address the needs of work group computing. Based on its object based repository. So I can develop application code and share that across my work group or the department of developers. So this is where we believe the market place is today with application development in the G U I desktop. We've already seen a brief glimpse of of of of Gain Multimedia.... This is the type of technology which may indeed eventually replace the traditionally data entry heads down data entry facility and user.... We have a an order entry clerk who's now ordering hundreds of orders a day and that is from a printout from our customers and that printout has come form the computer system of our customers. And they have a data entry clerk who's entered that order onto their system and then printed it out. So we have several levels of interaction with a computer in terms of entering information. Multimedia will enable us to place a console or our system or an extension of our information infrastructure in our customer's environment and enable them to interact with our systems though an interactive self teaching sentry rich environment. So we can get rid of all of those different costly interactions with a computer with er interactions of com of of paper output erm dumb terminal input paper output dumb terminal input. So all this can be do done and integrated through Multimedia. One er one of Gain's first customers in the U S was er E D S. E D S have er will be using Gain technology to deliver erm what they're calling console applications for the World Cup in nineteen ninety four in U S A. So that in the in the er the World Cup environment there will be kiosks around thes the er the the training camps for instance where players or er fans can go up and touch using a touch screen can see the er the the highlights of the last Cameroon versus England game, they can find out where the nearest Indonesian restaurant and they can find out the team news for the next game. And all of this using Gain's multimedia capabilities. So we're extending the way that information systems can be used by users who traditionally have not been en empowered or enabled to get at that information. One of the other key partners of Gain Multimedia is Sun. If you buy a certain level support from Sun Microsystems, they will ship you an application which is built using Gain Multimedia. And that application is a self teaching way to use a S Sun Unix workstation. Traditionally if you buy a w unix workstation and you turn it on out of the box, look at the screen and you'll see a percent sign. What do you do next? You turn to the manual and try and work out how it's going to how you're going to interact with it. Well Gain Multimedia will enable you to turn on the workstation and it will talk to you, it will show you videos, it will show you animation as to how that workstation should be used to best advantage. So System Ten is the culmination of several years of work that we've been doing with other hardware and software vendors but most importantly with our customers. We've worked together to make sure our products address the needs of the real world. approach is one which is essentially pragmatic.... I've talked during my presentation about each of the paradoxes which we laid out at the beginning of the morning which talked about the diverse needs of different parts of an enterprise from their information systems if we are to deliver the adv er the advantages of enterprise-wide client server. I hope that we have proved today that SQL Server is well proven advanced technology, Replication Server enables us to deliver data to who needs it, where they need it, when they need it even if there are system failures, that Navigation Server provides us with a high capacity with a low entry cost, that Omni SQL Gateway enables us to have complete vendor transparency and integrate all information for decision support. I hope that we've been able to convey the way that Control Servers will enable you to control the client server environment as if you're controlling a mainframe, and I sincerely hope that we've been able to talk erm knowledgeably knowledgeably about our tool strategy and how we can address the needs of each different group of users with different desktop devices in a consistent manner.... is committed to deliver solutions for real world problems. has set the client server agenda for other vendors for four years, and with System Ten we hope to continue to do so. Before we finish, what I'd like to do is erm show you a video, another testimonial from er one of strategic partners which is the courier company. Er once we've showed you that video, Garry's gonna come back and just sum up very briefly and then we'll open the floor for questions and answers. Thank you. [video film]... [Nellie:] time. Er one thing that does intrigue me following Phill's presentation is how the average British football fan will cope with a a Gain Multimedia workstation in Atlanta in the World Cup. Er [LAUGHTER] could be quite interesting. Erm I get the easy bit after Phill's difficult presentation, er talking around nice slides like this and yes that's the yellow brick road around what we've talked about this morning. Er a quick summary because we have overrun. Er just as we owned that famous street in New York I'd like to think with the technology and the architecture that can deliver today we we'll own the road to enterprise client server. Er and you can all read what we've talked about there. That's where we've come from, we've talked about what's what's a available today, and we've talked about where we'd like to take our users in the future. Er and I can think of erm nothing better than to leave you with this slide er which I think sums up where we're coming from today and what we'd like you to take away from today. Er I'd like to i ask our presenters this morning to join me on the stage to take any questions from the floor and ask if you could er fill in your er... y y your sur your sheets on the on today's events before you leave please. Er there is an information pack er to take away with you and er in reverse order you've seen the film you can read the book. Within that pack there is erm er if you like the book that takes you through the slides that have been put up there today. Er so please if there are any questions er... let's have them.... Someone's someone's got to be first. Yes sir? [speaker001:] Is it possible to store er CAD information or is it basically er ASCII? [Nellie:] Yeah the question was, Is it possible to store CAD information on the database? Er Phill answer that one? [speaker002:] Yeah I can answer that. Erm absolutely. Erm one of the things that is very good at is in in technical applications such as CADCAM. Erm we're very strong in the manufacturing arena and there's several applications based on on er which are u delivering CAD solutions in fact. Erm so yes we can And in fact the Gain video that you saw incorporates some CAD drawing as well. So yes it is absolutely appropriate for that sort of application.... [Nellie:] Anyone else? Yes? [speaker002:] How much stock if any stock does N C R hold? [speaker001:] [whispering] Repeat the question. [] [Nellie:] Repeat the question for anybody who didn't hear that How much stock if any does N C R hold in? [speaker004:] Well I will answer that er holds no stock of the product because the product is er the the current products are sold by us exclusively. Er some of the new products er you talk we talked about like Navigation Server we will be working with N C R on precisely we'll be shipping those products. [Nellie:] Yes [speaker001:] open systems in the Unix context erm what plans do you have to integrate with N T as and when it becomes available? [Nellie:] Yeah the question was er what are our plans to integrate with N T as and when it becomes available? Er perhaps one of the things that wasn't mentioned this morning is our relationship with with Microsoft in that the the Microsoft SQL Server for a the O S Two environment is actually a developed product er and we have a joint marketing agreement on that. Again John if you want to pick on the on the on the [speaker004:] Well you can be assured that we have a very close relationship with Microsoft and Microsoft will er tell you the same story. In fact erm when for example Microsoft Access was reduced it included in the box the O D B C driver to access the SQL Server database. We'll be available on N T erm I don't think I can say concurrently with the availability of N T cos A no one knows the availability of N T and secondly there will inevitabl be some lag, but it will be very soon as quick as we can make it after that. Erm also of course erm N T is not just a platform for the Intel machines. So erm N T is significant to Sequent and to Digital and they're target platforms for us as well.... [Nellie:] Yes? [speaker001:] How does er O D B C fit in with erm sort of Microsoft and er future? [Nellie:] Again the question there, How does the O D B C fit in with the Microsoft and er future? Phill? [speaker002:] Okay. Erm we mentioned already today about A P A P I on the desktop called erm Open Client. And that is a er an A P I which is very similar in approach to O D B C in that it enables you using a consistent interface to get at any data source within the organization. This that was erm ahead of the standards if you like, and we also need to follow standards and be standards conformant and O D B C is the first implementation of S Q L Access Group is standard for the desktop. As John has already said, when s er Microsoft first introduced Access and therefore the O D B C software, the only database which had the driver bundled in with the the box was SQL Server. So we're very committed to O D B C. It is one standard which we're following, it is an alternative A P I for the desktop which is obviously strong because of the Microsoft relationship, erm but we will also foth follow other standards in terms of A P Is for the desktop as well. [speaker001:] Is there any erm is there sort of clash in using the er the Omni S Q L Gateway and O D B C? [speaker002:] No none at all. In fact when we ship the O Omni SQL Gateway we also ship erm the catalogue tables for O D B C with the Gateway, so they work in combination. [speaker001:] Right.... With the Omni SQL Gateway that er you'll be be able to access D B two data is that still going through the Open SQL Server or is that actually going D R D A or are there plans to go D R D A compliant? [Nellie:] I don't think I need to repeat that I think everyone can hear the questions er [speaker002:] Okay erm in terms of the technical erm way it works erm the O Omni SQL Gateway does go through the Open Server for Kix at the moment and I think John could probably comment on the I B M relationship. [speaker004:] Yeah as part of the activity at Uniforum last week erm I B M made certain announcements. There was certainly the announcement of a relationship with us because I B M share this vision of the enterprise client server model in integration of the mainframe into the open systems environments. They also announced a thing called D R D A two. I think that announcement was actually made I told it was going to be and has committed to support D R D A two and that effectively provides an alternative A P I perhaps as O D B C with Microsoft's backing will become the norm in the P C environment, D R D A will be in the I B M environment. Part of D R D A two is er Two Face Commit coordination which we're also committed to support. So that will actually mean that a single transaction can span say D B two or indeed other I B M data sources in a database.... [Nellie:] Well I'm conscious we kept you a long time this time this morning and I certainly do appreciate your attendance and presence. Er Sorry.... Helen? [speaker001:] Can I just ask one thing? Some of you have managed to escape already without filling in your seminar. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Erm could I ask you all to do that before you leave please? [Nellie:] I think what that means is you can't get past Helen unless you do fill that in critiques. Er agai once again thank you for your time and attendance this morning. There's been an awful lot of information imparted. We sincerely hope that's been of use to you. Er... and obviously there are certain er a number of people er surrounding you. Feel free to to hang around and ask some more specific questions if you wish. Er but thank you for your attendance and safe journey.

[speaker001:] Erm my first job was erm helping the keeper. With the pheasants. I started there when I was about fifteen and er erm they used to breed about er six hundred pheasants there you see. And my job was to going round with the keeper and feeding them every morning. They used to have a erm hens there you see, they used to go round the small farms buying hens, then for half a crown each, just for sitting on the eggs to hatch them. And then they used to put them in er er small boxes out in the field and er I used to go round in the woodlands and cut some you see, put them in the ground with a small branch on them and then we used to make some string and loops out of erm wire to go round their feet you see. And then we used to put these loops the through the loops and tie their legs to the string. And have them in the get their feed first thing in the morning you see. And as soon as they finished their feed and they had some drinks from the small tins as well, we used to put them one by one back in these boxes where the eggs were and they used to settle down straight off then after they had their feed and and they used to erm settle down no trouble at all. And then the old keeper used to come round and see that we were all right and they'd be there till the following day and carry on for about three or four weeks you see. And then as they hatched you see, you used to take them in into the incubator then. Because we had finished with the hens then you see, and they used to sell the hens for about two shillings or something like that you know. In the old time. And then erm they eggs would be in this incubator for about a week and then they used to arrange coops for them to go out do you see, we used to fence a field below the mansion,, in the field there, because there was a good in enclosure right round the two drives and then there were shelter you see. And then we used to fence it half. And get a shed there or a hut anyway. And then we used to put some coops there and small runs for them and we used to carry them there, every night because they settled down better in the night than in the daytime. And the hen with back again there if they hadn't sold them. Take the hens. And erm we used to have about six hundred in all there they say. And then when they had come about two months old, something like that, er we used to carry them out now, into the woodlands and with the rest of the hens. Into the woodlands. At night. As when it was eight to nine o'clock at night sometimes up to twelve o'clock, depends on how many was going out. Because they settled down better in the night in the woodlands. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] If you took them in the daytime, they'd come back, but taking them in the dark, when they were asleep into the woodlands, they'd settle much better do you see. In the bushes and all that. And then we used to after that, we used to go out, every in the morning and at night, taking some feed out, to them wherever they were do you see. Now then, after they cut the in the farm, all the rakings erm there might be about four or five loads there do you see. They used to take the what they called the rakings, the spare after they carried the sheaves in. The spare of the of the straw and there was some er seed among them do you see. Used to take a load of that to one part of the woodlands. Another one to another part there, and so on. About four or five. And then we used to call them because that's where we were feeding them do you see. After they had settled down among the bushes, we used to take these do you see. And then they would walk for them do you see, do their way up for them. And then we used to feed them on these rakings there do you see. Er twice, morning and night. And er if you went quietly back after putting the feed out say before dark, put the feed down there and you went quietly back and watched them, you wouldn't believe how many would have been there. There'd be about two or three hundred. Perhaps on the same... erm pheasant. Because there were some old ones there before the young one had've gone there do you see. And erm then they settled down. There on that patch do you see. Now then my my place for feeding was the upper side of do you see. All the woodlands of the upper side, there was three three feedings there. Three erm place to feed them. And we used to watch them. Go there sometimes about four o'clock give them a feed out and then we used to I used to stay there in a small shelter there. And they'd go down right over the main road, right over the fields, over the railway, through the fields along the beach there. And about four o'clock to five o'clock, they'd be coming back. And as they were coming back they would be cawing. For used to go over the road and they used to go over the railway. You could hear them coming from the distance, back. And they make to the same place to their feed. And that's in that place just round about there. That's where they were roosting overnight on the trees. Just on that path there do you see. And they'll come from oh two or three miles back to the same tree. Same tree every night. No different tree. But to the same tree. And the s the trees they would like to come was the pines and the pines because they they've got a mop like of of leaves do you see, and they were well sheltered there, among these. And they were hidden among them do you see. So they were quite warm there. Doesn't matter what the weather was. They were quite warm there. And they'll come to that tree every night. The same about forty to fifty on that field on that tree, they'd come to that tree every night. Doesn't matter where they were. And erm the keeper, had from up towards the mountain do you see. Three er feedings there again. And then that was there, the old ones and all. From the past, used to come there do you see and feed. And roost in the same spot there. Aye. And then in between, I was to go round with him, say in the afternoons or some mornings, and he had heard about a fox somewhere. Perhaps up in the or up in the mountain. We used to go after lunch, straight up to the mountain or wherever the fox was. And dig them out, young cubs and all. [speaker002:] Did you? [speaker001:] Aye. And catch them alive in the burrows. And that was a job. [LAUGHTER] And er we used to dig down, we used to put the the dogs in, used to have about two or three terriers. Put them in. And block all the holes. Perhaps you'd block all the holes. Perhaps you'd put one in. Just to mark. And then we used to listen with our ear on the ground and we could hear where the dog was do you see, and then we used to dig down there because we knew it was fighting there with the with a vixen do you see. The fox we used to we used to dig down there and come to the vixen. And then the old keeper, he was quicker than I am, because I was l erm because he was used to the job do you see. And then I was taken the dog out slowly do you see, and the old vixen coming out forward do you see. And he used to have a small piece of stick with a on the end of it, cut from er a tree or a bush. And as soon as she puts her head down out for the for the dog do you see, fighting, he used to put this V on her back, right at the back of the the the neck. Just above you know on the scruff scruff anyway. And hold her down. And the he could get his hand do you see, round her nose anyway, around her snout. Catching hold of her and she couldn't get back do you seem because he had slipped this hand down this stick, got hold of her and he you see, and then I let go of the dog and take the the front feet and we used to drag her out like that you see, from the burrow and put her in a bag. As soon as she was in the sack, it was a sack then, you wont get them now. Old fashioned sack. As soon as she was in the sack, she was as quiet as a lamb. Very very quiet. And then [speaker002:] Not struggling? [speaker001:] No struggling at all. As soon as she was in the bag, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] she was quiet like a lamb. No at all. We used to tie her in there and get the cubs out then do you see, we used to dig for the cubs. They might be about er a month old, perhaps six weeks old and we used to get them sometimes, most of the time we would get about four there, sometimes three. And we used to catch them alive, take them out, put them in a bag together again, and off home again do you see. And then er we used to make a a big chest for her do you see. You used to have two or three old chests there. And we used to take one of them, do it up, put some straw in and everything and all that and then, tie there was a ring in the ground you see in one of the. And a chain there and we used to tie her to this chain so that she could get into the box and out again, and then we used to put the cubs there first in the straw and then we used to put her there do you see. Just take take the bag, put it in and let go and then shut her there for the night, just for one night. And with a lead on and off do you see. And then in the night when it was dark, the old keeper used to come there, open the top of the lid and shut the door, because she was in a she was in a loft do you see, above the kennels, with er an iron er ladder going up and down you see, and then shut the door on her there do you see and she could get in and out then from the chest. And then the job was on the following days was after be shooting rabbits to feed them do you see. For about oh, three or four weeks. Till we had a customer do you see through the office in. A customer from somewhere in England, where they used to hunt them do you see. [speaker002:] I see. [speaker001:] And then er perhaps they were get a customer in about two or three weeks perhaps, less than that sometimes. And then, the next job was to make a a a crate for her to go on the railway do you see. erm er erm big crate with some strips of wood along the top. And then plenty of straw and everything and put the old vixen in and the cubs and some food for and then the old erm the old er [clicks fingers] erm what did they used to call it? Oh the... not a Land Rover then.. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] That's what they call it. Aye the. That's when they used to come up and put it in the straight on to the station. And then the depot on and off to wherever was the place like. Aye aye. And we had finished with them. Aye. Another time was... about October, I don't know what he was doing with them, but in October, middle of October, we used to go out to the beach and shoot erm... Oh what do you call them now? They've got long beaks like that. [clicks fingers] You can hear them in the Summer, just before dusk in the swamps. [speaker002:] the er the curlews? [speaker001:] Curlews, that's it. The curlews. Used get as much as he could of them, I don't know was it to keep the the amount of them down or not. I'm not quite sure. Because they used to be in the swamp hours. Hours in the swamp and when they were going all thick and heavy there, he used to go round about October, just for that one day, and shoot as much as he could, and bring them into the mansion. What they were going I don't know. Aye and er he had a g special gun for that job. It was a about thirty six barrel. Length of barrel. And he used to c take cartridges erm about an inch and a half thick and about three inches long. Specially made. Single barrel. And on the end of the erm stock there was the to take the kick do you see. And er sometimes you'd have a stand for it because it was too long. And he used to have a small stand on it do you see, to hold the barrel, and then he could manoeuvre around just like a machine gun. Wherever the birds where, aye. And for shooting er wild erm [clicks fingers] geese. And er wild ducks as well. In fact, they used to call it the gun for the wild ducks do you see. And they used to be coming erm about the end of September through the beginning of November, they used to come to the beach from different directions, during that time. And that was the time to shoot them. Aye, different birds. Erm er different ducks erm... and ducks. Aye. were the small ones, all different colour. But the were creamy white the big ones then were the ones for eating anyway. Aye aye. Yes and I had a lot of er experience with with training dogs and all that for hunting the old foxes and all that. [speaker002:] Did you? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. [speaker002:] On f er was it on foot? [speaker001:] Yes. Oh yes, on foot aye, aye. And erm we used to carry erm... used to have a pair of binoculars with him and I used to have the old er telescope do you see. And er we used to look if we could see some on the side of the mountains from the distances you could pick it out with a pick them out with er with this telescope it was a heck of a good telescope, aye. It was so good, this telescope, we had, when I was watching the pheasants, in the field, I used to be there all day for the the carrion crows would come along do you see. Then we had to shoot them do you see. The carrion crows. And it was funny, the carrion crows use to keep away for the whole week nearly. But when the Sunday morning used to come, the old and the old erm Scotch keeper used to tell me, Tom, he used to say, I you know it's Sunday again? [speaker002:] Yes, I said, look at them crows, he says to me, they know it's Sunday because you'd never shoot on a Sunday. No. [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] He was a Scotchman, he would never shoot on a Sunday. Doesn't matter if he saw his fox, he wouldn't shoot it on a Sunday. No. Aye he was very very keen er keep the Sunday clean. Aye. Aye aye. And er the only thing we could do then was to chase them away go round you know and just chase them away.. But this telescope... the field was just below. The mansion of. And I could see right across the fields and right across the Menai Straits onto Beaumarais. From there and I had this telescope. And I could see during the week this was, in the mornings you know, say about eight or nine to ten in the morning, and I could see the figures of the ladies there, cleaning the windows in the morning. And the front. You couldn't see them right if you were a few yards from them, but just the figures moving you know, and their arms going backwards and fore cleaning the windows. Yes, it was so good as that. It was a good telescope. Aye, aye. One of the best I ever saw. Aye. And erm you could see a long distance with it like that you know, especially if you could see a fox from er about a mile and a half, you could see right going along the rocks in the mountains. Aye. Aye. And erm say the fox had been in the ground, and the and the the young cubs, for about three or four days. And we used to hear somebody saying there was a vixen there and some and some young ones. we went up there with the dogs and let them in in to the burrow. Block everywhere, let them into the burrow. One dog would go in, and she'd just shake her tail and come back, and you couldn't get her in afterwards because she knew that they'd cleared off. I see. [speaker001:] They had moved. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Anyway the scent was there, but she was wise once she had gone through, Oh it's alright. She wouldn't go in then, and you knew then, well they've gone. What they were doing, the old vixen was walking them higher up into the mountain for safety. And the old dog knew that it was empty, no use... digging down or anything, she had gone do you see. Aye, they were quite wise like that. Yes. And one time, I remember, er we had gone among the rocks there, and we had er two erm... two fox terriers there. And one was fox terriers. And er that one would fight, doesn't matter what was there, it'd fight its way out. Anyway, when I came in, and he he didn't come out. It was oh about two to three o'clock in the afternoon. And he didn't come out. Dark when the r it came dusk and dark again and he hadn't come out. And we left him there and we went home. Up there about six o'clock in the morning, ad we managed to get him out them. And he was bitten all over his face, everywhere. And of course the old keeper knew what was there alright when he saw the old dog coming out. It was erm [clicks fingers] badger. [speaker002:] A badger [speaker001:] Badger den Aye. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And that one was fighting with the dog do you see. Because they've got a shelf do you see, in the burrow, for safety. If er something comes in, they can attack him on his back do you see. And that's what happened you see, he had him on. About his ears and all his face like that. But the old dog survived alright. Aye. Aye. The old keeper he knew how to treat him and he was on alright in about a month. Aye aye. But erm we set some traps then. Gin was one then. You could use them. We went back with these traps, put them in a half circle right round, bout nine of them, anyway. And er a fox trap as well as the gin trap, that one's a bigger one. Anyway, the following day he was there. The third day, in the trap. Aye. Aye. He had gone to the big one and he wandered about his two in his legs. Aye, of course we couldn't go near him, we shoot him from a distance,. Aye. And that one we were doing in the meantime. Between the feeding, the pheasants and all that, aye. And I was there for the erm... oh about fourteen months in all with the shooting. [speaker002:] How how old were you [speaker001:] And they were starting shooting the pheasants about then, it's altered now. It used to be the twenty first of October. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Right through to the middle of January. Yes and we used to have about two or three er days of shooting during that erm that period anyway. Aye aye. Aye. Yes and er we used to have about two hundred three hundred birds on the for the shooting and then perhaps about a hundred and fifty or so or something like that on the second. And erm we used to help er in the woodlands then, used to give us a help. And they'd be all down in the cellar do you see. And up in the cellar, after the shooting, we had to make them to a brace like that, a cockerel and a hen. In a brace. And hang them up in the cellar all night. Because there was two or three rooms there do you see, a proper place for hanging up. And the following day, we had to go in and help and pack them in hampers. Do you see. Specially made for them. Pack them there, the whole braces. Aye. And erm take them and down two two or three loads down to the station. Pack them off. For Manchester, Liverpool and er different places like that. Aye, aye. Aye. And of course, on the shooting, they used to have a good feed of you know in the mansion in the cellar. Aye. All tables laid out, all kinds of meat and puddings and everything. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker001:] Yes. And plenty of drinks, Aye aye. [speaker002:] Who would be at the shoot then? [speaker001:] Well they used to invite do you see. Lord for instance and er there used to be one from this way, Portmadoc somewhere, the place was the place was called. And erm that one was just along beyond Caernarfon here somewhere. And Anglesey, I remember from Anglesey, he was from that way somewhere. And erm Colonel from. And erm some from towards er that way, from the estate there somewhere. Used to be about four or five you know, aye. And the major himself of course. And er the some of the the family as well. Yes. I remember one lady there, she was only young, and she was she was only about twenty five, and er she had a... a twelve bore, single barrel gun. I thought it was too heavy for her, she was only small. But sh she was the second best shooter there. For the day, for bringing them down. Aye. [speaker002:] Was she? [speaker001:] Aye. Everybody was surprised. She was such an accurate er shooter. Aye, aye. Aye. You see one, was close to the woodlands and in fact missed, she was just in the bottom of the field, and she's sure to get the bird.. And then as we were beating you see, inside, through the bushes and all, and a pheasant got up, and we used to shout,, do you see, for them to know that he was coming. Aye. But the noise of him and the flapping was good enough sign too. Yes. And I had been loading for the Major the last time that I was out shooting, the last time for me like. Aye aye. Aye, the one that used to was poorly. He a loader for him. Aye aye. Two guns of course. And then you had to be quick at it you know. Keep two cartridges in your hand all the time, and then as soon as you'd handed your gun, and you were taking the other one, and he was the empty one. They used to swing out themselves do you see, just open trigger handle for the barrel to open, they used to spring out, and then put the two new ones in you see and close it straight off. And you had to be quick you see, because the birds sometimes used to come and stop over. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And then and used to miss you know sometimes he would be missing every one nearly and he'd be cleaning his glasses all the time, Dash it [LAUGHTER] []. Aye aye. Other times he couldn't miss. Aye aye. Aye. Oh I enjoyed it. And erm then I went to the woodlands as a forester. And I started from there as a forester. I was about sixteen and a half then or going for seventeen aye. And I was there for twenty five years. Aye, in the woodlands. And I've been er erm loading for him two or three times after that. Aye aye. Aye. Yes. And er then I carried on in the woodlands then, cutting trees down and erm sawing up too. I was on the circular sa saw there for about eight or ten years. Doing nothing only sawing all day. Aye, that was during the wartime, aye aye. Aye. And erm felling, trees. Cutting trees for blocks for them, for roads. And they used to go through about oh I should say about erm carts then you see, horse and carts. And they used to take about six loads a day you see. Of er blocks. Er every week. They had to go through a lot of blocks. And about seven to eight, truckloads of coal. They used to have them in the Summer, ready for the Winter. And they used to stack them all in the cellar. For the twelve months like. Aye. And erm the trucks were about [break in recording] Yes and I was there till... about erm... nineteen fifty three. I started in. August nineteen fifty three. And I was there till I was erm twenty six years in. Aye altogether. Yes. And of course my work here, I used to do in I used to plant a lot in. Of trees. But in when I came to, it was mostly erm planting threes again. And in I was planting an average, there was five of us working and the students and we used to average about fourteen to sixteen thousand every year of young plants. But clearing was a job mostly. I didn't mind planting, we were quick planting, but clearing for planting, that was the worst job do you see. You and open the ditches and all that.. Aye aye. But erm going back to er to, twice we had an oak land fire. Twice. I remember it was oh about nineteen twenty eight something like that it was. And s it had been a heck of a storm. And we had a plantation right out in... the erm warren. And it was a plantation of er. And we didn't go there to cut them at all because they were right open, right in the open and there was ho hope for them anyway. We left them there to season, we didn't bother. And er of course we had then. Anywhere we were c clearing the river up because blocked that, one Summer day and it was very hot for about a month or so. And we were at it clearing this there right in in the hollow. And there were some er foresters. They when they had bought bought a a plantation of larches. You want them for pit props. And they they had bought them. And they had these two or three foresters there, cutting them up. And we could hear somebody calling and shouting. We couldn't make out what was wrong. And er they were still whistling and calling, so I went up on to the top of the bank and they it was this plantation that fell down in the warren and caught fire. Somebody had been picnicking there do you see, in the warren and left some bottles there. And of course the sun caught the bottles and set the fire to the undergrowth of the grass do you see. And it was all peat. All these trees had been growing on peat do you see, and the peat was dry. Anyway we went up there but we couldn't do anything because the ground had taken fire do you see, all this peat. And the rabbits were bolting out from their house. And they had no single hair on. They were as clean you know, the backs of them as clean as my hand. They had not Because the ground was on fire do you see, and they were bolting out. And screaming. You could hear them squeaking off from a distance. And we were trying to kill them everything. Take them out of their misery but you couldn't cope with them because the ground was moving with them. Oh we felt terrible for them. Anyway, the trees were all burnt to dust. Aye aye. It wasn't only about half an acre or less. Aye. All the trees, but they had all fall down do you see, flat. And of course, they had seasoned by then and they were just like matches going, aye. And we didn't bother, we couldn't do anything much for these rabbits and try and kill them you know, as much as we could aye. Aye. Er it was better to leave it to burn out do you see. And the second fire I had was just before the last war. We had been clearing oh about six acres of woodlands. Been all been cleared f f erm... What we used to call it, cut and clear felled you see. All cleared. Ready for planting, and of course, oh there were some twigs and everything. I remember we cleaned it all up, and it was right on the boundary wall between property and. And we had a small bonfire in a way of small twigs and all that. All the undergrowth. And we had put it on fire and it had died down, you could have put it on two or three shovels, when we were leaving the place do you see, and it was all quiet and all all right now, and off we went home. About four o'clock in the morning, the following morning, a farmer was knocking on my door. And he said, Come here, the whole forest is on fire. I couldn't believe it till I went out. dressing gown and off I went out. To the front of the house and then like we see all the side and the f on fire. So I went back, dressed, and off I went, called the and I went up to try and beat it off. No hopes, it was travelling under our feet, non-stop. We were beating and beating. Anyway in the end, they called the the fire brigade. We we could see it was going out of control. Even big old trees you know, they were coming down. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Burning and the top of them coming down you know, it was dangerous. And the fire brigade was coming along the road, we could hear it coming you know. And it came a heavy shower, thunder shower. And it lasted about three quarters an hour, and it all damped down. We were as glad as anything when we saw this rain coming down. We were soaked to the skin, we didn't care. As long as we could stop the fire. Because it was travelling you know, on er oh a line of about... ooh I'm sure about six hundred yards. Because he had gone back to the woodlands where the trees were. And it was going along through the woodlands, travelling like the river. And covered in sweat. But when this rain came down, it was like it had been sent to stop it you know. A heavy rain, we were soaked in about five minutes, soaked to the skin. Aye. Aye. But it stopped it like that, it was only just smouldering you know. And and of the fire brigade, We couldn't do anything better. [LAUGHTER] [] They all turned back that was all. Aye with their tankers, aye aye. That's the only two fires I had. And what happened you see,... the wind got up during the night, and this small fire we had you see, started spreading back among the undergrowth, and then the more it was back, the bigger it was t gaining ground, and it was getting to the old stuff do you see, And then it was a good flare then. And it started, we could see where it started from, this fire. And it was like a black carpet all the way. Aye aye. If we had put some two or three stones on it you see, that'd been better. But we thought it was alright, we didn't bother. I mean it was right up to the wall, and the we'd have bothered. But you can see what will happen. [LAUGHTER] and it was right through. Yes and when I came to, as I was saying we were clearing... all half of. Cos they didn't have the whole park, only I think it was three hundred er no five hundred acres in all. Taking the the front grounds and the gardens and the farmland, and the woodlands. Erm there's about two hundred acres of woodlands do you see. And erm the farm the erm Mr, timber merchant, he had bought when he came up, the whole park. You see, during the wartime. And now then, this half that the college had, do you seem he had taken most of the timber from there, do you see. There was a timber control and they had been there, controlling him. But he had cut do you see, all on the inside, and left along the roadside. All the trees along the roadside, and they had matured. And then do you see, he had taken most of the stuff from here, because he had four sawmills going do you see. The biggest one in Conway. And now then, all the small stuff was going as well do you see, for firewood, for the the stuff. For the stations, railway stations because they couldn't get any coal do you see. And the same from we'd been selling from there as well. To make fires in the in the waiting rooms and all that do you know. Anyway, we had cleared nearly everything, only the tops of the trees were there, left to rotten and they were been dropped on the bushes. And then all the undergrowth was there as well do you see, tangled. All you wanted was the rough stuff out do you see, all the timber that was good, and the bad stuff as well, get it out. Anyway, what happened do you see, the ones that he'd cut in the beginning, when he bought the place. And he was here before he bought the place. The undergrowth, rhododendrons, brambles everything, had grown through the branches do you see. So there was the job of clearing. And all the water courses been blocked up and then it was swampy as well. Anyway, we cleared them and erm we started by the, clearing all them. Er all that patch along the and during nineteen I started in nineteen fifty three, and about the end of nineteen fifty four, before Christmas, most of the lot that he had left behind, came down. Ornamental trees and everything mixed with them. It was a heck of a gale. Er a southwestern gale. And it started about midnight. And we were down there about half past seven in the morning, and the trees were still felling then, with the wind. Do you see. And due to them taking a lot of the trees do you see, from there, and opened the wind in do you see. [speaker002:] I see [speaker001:] Take them I mean along the main road, he had taken the the the trees at the back of them and they had no shelter and they were down in the main road. And all over the place. You couldn't get in or out of here. Because every entrance had been blocked with trees. Big beech trees and er pine trees and everything. Every road there was, the main drive, the drive from... the erm... what do they call it? Er the lodge on the main road from Caernarfon and the East Lodge, half way to, that one was blocked as well, then three blocked. The entrance from in to the woodlands was blocked. And in the h other half, of the park, them had come down as well do you see. So there was no entrance there and all they could do was clear by the main lodge. And go through the fields, open a way through the field do you see. From the mansion. And then we were clearing all the for the week afterwards, opening places to go in and out do you see. Now then,, being that was working on the other side, took all the trees on the main drive do you see, and he bought them and cleared them. And the scars are still there today, the old stumps and all that. Anyway, that took a lot of our work do you see, back to clear them. And selling er most of them like. Another firm from Chester bought them er on the roadside. And erm it was mostly planting then as I was saying. And we were buying plants from er. And why I went there to buy them, was because it was the same climate as, and the trees, there was no setback in the plants do you see, they were starting growing straight off cos they'd been, was the same climate. [speaker002:] Aye. Yes. [speaker001:] As. And then I had some that was acquired from the forestry alright again. Same climate. Then I had some from Mid Wales, and they were slow in staring, because they took about twelve months to settle in there. And get used to the climate. Most of them came on all right in the end. Some were dying back. And erm I had some beech along the roadside, main roadside. From Barrow in Furness. Er and I had about twelve thousand along there. From Barrow in Furness. I took a day to go and fetch and Mid Wales, I had a lot of er of erm... erm... spruce er Norway, larches and. The American black they call it. And we had thousands from there as well. But er by the time I was ready to retire, I had planted all the half park. About two thousand acres in all. Within about two acres, by the time I retired. [speaker002:] Had had had you ever worked out how how m m how many trees that is about? [speaker001:] No I hadn't kept a a of the whole like. But we were doing on average about fourteen thousand sixteen thousand each year. Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Except the first two or three years I was here. we didn't plant much then. Cos I hadn't had the gang then do you see, there was only two of us then. And with a clearing and we were having the help of the students of course. But there wasn't much students then, we had about four of five in the beginning. So I couldn't get the swing of it then do you see, for about two or three years. Or two years anyway. About three years, I had some more gang to help me and the students were increasing then do you see. Yes. But erm towards about the sixth year, we used to plant about the average of fourteen, thirteen, fourteen, sixteen thousand, aye aye. Of course, it wasn't a matter being that they were plants only about. They were only about nine to fifteen inch tall do you see. But the they were going up from er twelve to eighteen inches. An er they were coming in er the Norways, they were coming in bundles of a hundred. The being that they were taller, and older, they were coming in bundles of about fifty do you see. So we had to as soon as they come we had to open a trench and heel them in do you see. Cover them up. And make sure the frost wasn't getting at them. Make sure the wind or the frost wasn't getting at the roots. Or it killed them straight off. And that was an extra job. And then we could use them straight from that ditch as we were planting do you see. Planting about... two hundred, three hundred, four hundred a day, depend on the crowd we had, aye aye, aye. Yes. And erm as well as that, we were cutting young trees, what was left like on the plantation, for stakes do you see, for the farm. And erm selling them. Of the stakes. And cutting firewood, to b to sell as firewood as well. Aye and making posts, gateposts for the farm and all that. Yes, helping the f the joiner with er with sawing as well with a big circular saw. That would keep him in in timber do you see, keep him going. Aye aye. And open the the ditches. Which was that one was a heck of a job. Being there was no... erm what they call them now? Er erm the digger isn't it erm... [speaker002:] J C B type thing? [speaker001:] J C B, that's it. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] It was all done by pick and shovel then. Aye and took more time. Yes, but we was to get the hand of the farm fellas to do the... the erm the digging with the with the ditches and all that, yes. Yes. Aye, Well was different, to. was more flat, but was all side. Working on the side do you see, so all the water was running away do you see. There was not much er ditching there at all. No no. That's all on the side. Well now then you had to get different spaces for to here. The same spaces wouldn't do in that did in. For instance,... erm because it was all side, Douglas pine, Douglas fir was doing better there than in. was doing all right, but Norway spruce was doing very badly, because during the war during the Wintertime do you see, there was only the Menai Straits, there and there was not much salt in the air. Do you see. So the wind was more fierce there off the straits. And, them will survive there, but during er the Winter, starting October, you could see the face of the plantation of that was facing the sea, it all scorched up towards the end of O of er December. And they would be like that scorched bread. All the leaves getting off. Until well in the following Summer, they would recover again. Because the wind was so cold off the Menai Straits do you see. it was scorching them right through. Could hardly get some to grow there. Larches were doing alright. But the they weren't doing very well at all there. No. And erm in erm, the er... yes the not the Norway, the er the ones that was growing in the shelter of the oak trees, they were surviving alright. Patch here and there. But as soon as you cut the the oak trees, down, and the ash, they would catch the wind then and scorch do you see. Aye aye. You had to be very. Beech, there wasn't much beech in, it was mostly round the mansion and at the back of the grounds. That was all. Because it didn't do at all well there. because beech likes a lot of lime in the ground you see. Well that's [speaker002:] Does it. [speaker001:] oak and ash doesn't like much of it. Erm again... beech was doing much better in and the scotch pine, one of the best places for scotch pine and beech. But the oak, you didn't get the the good class of oak here. You could get a better class of oak in. Because of the rocks there. It was all rocky and the oak well likes the rocks do you see, and they were doing better. They were slow in growing of course, but they like the rock better. And it was a better class of oak all through. Ash, the same again. If you cut the ash in, it was whitish, but if you cut it in, most of it when you cut it down, it was more like cream colour. Red and cream colour. And erm it was a better class altogether of ash. And the bark on the outside was a yellowish colour, the bark of it. But here, it was brownish do you see, rough brownish. Aye aye. And er if you get yellowish in the ash bask, it's a good class of ash. [speaker002:] Is it? [speaker001:] Yes. One of the best, cos it's tough do you see. Whereas the ones here, it's brittle. They'll snap. Aye. Well erm... again was very good for pine. A lo lovely class of Douglas pine there, very good. Aye, er in er two or three places right in the woodlands, in, on the slope we had erm Douglas fir there, going up two hundred and fifty, and two hundred feet tall. [speaker002:] Good heavens. [speaker001:] And the circumfe and erm diameter on I'd been cutting a lot of them down, the diameter of them was from four foot to about six foot. In the butt like, aye aye. And erm all the timber for one. And erm another one from er erm oh what do you call that place? On the way to Manchester. Mm. It's beyond Connor's Quay that way. They were buying a lot from. They were two brothers. And they reckon it was the best class of of er Douglas fir they ever had. Aye aye., this er fellow that was for in Conway told me we had to keep an extra erm for Douglas fir he says. We were. Because it's such a good timber, he says. Aye aye. Aye it's hard to saw them. Aye aye. Yes. [recording ends]

[Evan John:] what d what do you want to know? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Can you tell me what your first er job was? In the quarry? What you were employed as? [Evan John:] Oh er I I've only been erm I've only had one job. I mean er you know, I I was went in as a mechanical fitter and er stayed as such, getting sort of bigger and more responsibl bilities as I went Grew up. That's all and then I I I was looked after the production machinery for about fifteen years the top here. I was doing the the new developments as the years went by of course, we didn't stay still for long. [speaker002:] Can you can you give me some idea of erm w what it was like to start in the quarry as an apprentice? [Evan John:] W well erm you mean from the day one started sort of thing? [speaker002:] Yes. [Evan John:] Er... well er [LAUGHTER] one... went up... we we the fitting shop you see, was at. Erm the it was about I should imagine well guess, three years old back then. Cos two companies had amalgamated and built one fitting shop.. The works and the people had sort of amalgamated and so they used the one place where they had a fitting shop. Did away with one at in at this end, the new quarry. And er b built a bigger shop, a more modern one. Er of course one went, started work, very nervous, and er thought that everybody was sort of putting a tape measure [LAUGHTER] [] and er Oh to tell you the t truth I I didn't know Well I knew there was one apprentice been there about twelve months or nearly twelve months.... They were younger than myself and er we'd been at but er we'd been at together. We'd started at the same time. And er of course, one felt a little more a little happier after sort of meeting someone [LAUGHTER] you know because it's quite [] and I was very shy at that at that time. And er of course everybody there were only about what half a dozen fitters in those days and erm... er as a mark of their profession or trade in those days, they used to wear a white collar you know, with out a tie. [LAUGHTER] And er [LAUGHTER] they er well er what shall we say,w we we have got introduc people introduced themselves and asked who I was and who my family was and all that's the usual thing you know. [speaker002:] Was that important? Was that considered important? [Evan John:] Oh yes, they course the there was then er er relatives were then they sort of knew there were some who knew someone or cousin of whatever. I mean there were so many h Well really whole families working in the quarry in various parts of the quarry you see. And erm those erm Oh and then I was told which p put me off rather. Er by the man who or one of the men who swept the shop and kept it clean and all the the the one of the labourers, that my job was to one of my jobs was to make the tea for the men. So [LAUGHTER] that put me off a bit. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Was it true? [Evan John:] And I thought Oh yes, yes. And fetch water for them to wash and that. And erm so really three times a day I had to er make tea. Er of course it took a bit of time to learn as to er you know the the rotation who the to take the tea from various men's buckets, they was buckets, or wher wherever they had their stuff in their bags. And there weren't so many bags carried in those days as there were in later years, you know, the sort of er haversack thing. And er having to er knowing you know which and what time. I mean if er that w you you'd had it if if you w ruined for life if you er took one man's see but served two teas. [LAUGHTER] er say er yeah within say er two days or worse still, you could it the same day actually, because they used to have those erm er Have you seen them, those an oval tin with two ends, er it was split in the middle. Have you seen them? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Evan John:] I've got one somewhere in the shed here. Because you could I mean you could do the empty one [LAUGHTER] tin in a day really []. And er [LAUGHTER] tea and sugar. But th the thing was that there was a mess room outside the fitting shop actually, but there wasn't much room there because er men from other jobs, er they p from outside, used to go there and eat. So the our men er the fitters, had erm a table in the shop itself. Erm with in a corner sort of thing with a thing around it and you know. It was well I didn't see much sense in that either but er I mean if they were eating on the j er [LAUGHTER] eating on the job [] didn't give you a break at all. But erm anyway, the erm and some of the men, used to go The older men, used to go and er to the smithy and cos er the our the s fitting shop had a three fires at one end you see, where the am blacksmiths were. Oh they weren't blacksmiths in in the ordinary sense of the word, they weren't quarry blacksmiths as such because they were more or less engine smiths you see. Yeah. They had to make and shape things for us well for [LAUGHTER] for the fitters, the machine and that you know. They they were w what would be called in the navy and that er engine smiths. Cos they worked they didn't bash er ham sledge hammers and things like a shop and the gear for the quarry men as such, they Cos that was the usual work of the erm the blacksmiths outside in the quarry itself you know, in the b on the in the various banks. There was one, usually one blacksmith per bank really. [speaker002:] W w w were these Were these smiths still primarily concerned with forging? [Evan John:] Yes. [speaker002:] Were they? [Evan John:] They they they did the the forge work and all that you see, and they looked after erm the er the inclined brakes What we call the brake. I haven't I haven't seen heard another name for them really. Erm they looked after the w the ropes and er there was one one blacksmith, where he used to go on his rounds and check check the wire ropes and the hooks and that on the inclines you know. Test them for sa Well that the insurance and the I suppose er the the the erm er what is it? The mining er er you know the there's a a body which looks after the mining [speaker002:] Oh the inspectorate? [Evan John:] The inspectorate er men I don't know whether it's the same as the one that looked after the coal field and all that, but erm we we had an inspector coming round every so often anyway. And erm the the that was part part of their work you see,the these blacksmiths. And there were ooh a couple of what? A couple of dozen of these brakes or more. No at least a couple of dozen, working at that time. So they were kept really busy. Some of them were kept really busy just er looking after the brakes and and they they had to er check the er the erm hooks. They used to take the hooks off the wagon you see, there were two hooks, one each end of the the wagons that they used on the incline. And then they were put they were er put er in the fire wire brushed and all that and looked and inspected for cracks you see. And that that came round er I mean they were stamped and er the turn you know the each I I don't I don't remember what what they were examined, but er th you know the the that was the law that they had to be. There were piles of them in the smithy anyway. that had been through the fire and they were taken out and you know whoever. And h Well, no, they were put on the wagons actually. Which were built in the wagon shops. And erm [speaker002:] Can you give me some idea of some of the other trades that were represented in the er in the shop? [Evan John:] Oh erm... they erm... they did a lot of the work that were Well they helped out at least, they they used to make wearing plates for the mills and that for the chutes and that. You see. Erm... oh they... what else?...... Erm oh there were a thousand and one things I [LAUGHTER] I can't really erm you know they they were always they were at it hammer and tongs you know they had er s what would be called something similar to a steam hammer and you know. [speaker002:] Did they? [Evan John:] To do the job, yeah. Er you know the the they had a f what was it? Four hundred weight, pneumatic hammer. So you can imagine the the the the he the amount of heavy work that they had as well. [speaker002:] Did they ever have a foundry? Did they have a [Evan John:] No er well, No er not not that I remember. But erm I remember er h having I was quite interested actually, er there was er a sort of loft in the stores. And there were patterns up in this store you see. [speaker002:] Mm. [Evan John:] [LAUGHTER] And I but I couldn't get up at them, the the storekeeper [LAUGHTER] was fairly strict [] with us youngsters and he used to chase us. But erm they were oh m er wooden er gear wheels, of all sizes and such things, you know. Up in this loft say. So I don't know whether they'd been sending them away, to be er as patterns to some other firm or what, but there was quite a quant there was er a quantity of of casting sand you know black stuff that you use. Around the the the shop so, obviously they'd been either been casting brass, at some time or other. Obviously. They didn't do I I understand that the the quarries at and and those places used to cast their own stuff, but erm... I I haven't I never heard of them actually casting anything erm ferrous anyway. But erm the... what we o very often did was er we used to run our own own bearings with white metal. And we had er a special erm furnace for that. And er we used to run Well most of our bearings, actually er white metal bearings and machine them afterwards. And er we cast during the dark days of the war, [LAUGHTER] when toys weren't available, we [LAUGHTER] a few older blokes er apprentices used to I remember being at it for a couple of hard week we had a hard week, well evening during the evenings anyway. Er working, sweating like like er real steel men,ca turning out soldiers [LAUGHTER] and er [] and erm e somebody'd got hold of a mould of these er er toy soldiers you know, the old er lead soldiers that er [speaker002:] Yeah. [Evan John:] They used to come out in threes I think moulds. And some aero aero aeroplane erm g er... er what er I think they were If I remember rightly, they were the er Oh dear. Forget the name of the plane now for the moment. Yes well. There were hundred of them flying round the end of the during the war. Oh, designed for the coastguard. Er coastal command.... Oh dear, never mind. But we you know, one was one would be boiling the the white metal, we'd we'd fixed on the and er... one would be boiling and pouring the stuff and the other cutting y you know breaking up the the mould sort of thing and piling the stuff out and as fast as we were piling them up, some beggar was [LAUGHTER] creeping in and stealing them []. Oh dear. [LAUGHTER] You know, in actual fact, one of the men working in the in the in the carpenter's shop. He was he'd been hurt that was the usu that's why some of the men did. He'd been er had an accident in the quarry some time ago and he was working in the helping as a mate or something [LAUGHTER] in the carpenter's shop [] and he he must have been h must have had his hands in our pile of finished products and er [LAUGHTER] Well partly finished products and er he er he was caught one of the cos er these castings there was a an edge to them you know, the joint of the the mould that came together sort of thing. They had to be filed clean. This beggar had come in to the fitting shop, corner at the back corner, where he shouldn't have been. I mean he wasn't supposed to be in the fitting shop anyways. So the the manager our greatest enemy, we used to know when he started from the house [LAUGHTER] in the morning actually by [] quarry that er he was coming, but the on this particular day anyway, somebody had slipped up somewhere. And he saw this bloke you see, where he shouldn't have been. Er filing away. And he had this this erm casting of a plane you know he was cleaning up the [LAUGHTER] edges [] gave the game away [LAUGHTER] of course then []. Oh dear. Anyway we I think we supplied dozens of youngs kids that had no toys during the war. you know.. Erm yes well th that's the only erm casting you know, that we did. bearings for for you know, shafts mills really the old type crushers in mills that They were really old fashioned crushers. And they had to be the bearings had to be either you had to have a s a set ready at all times sort of thing you know so a spare set. Erm yeah oh the bearings we we they usually were bought from They were American er brass bearings, huge brass things you know. They used to cost about two hundred pounds in those days and that was a heck of a sum [LAUGHTER] in those days [] you know that sort of thing, how much they cost and had to be careful of them and all that. And erm the other crusher, the Buchanan crusher up in in here, the the the primary crusher, the American one. Well that that used to be sent away the o the main bearing the main er jaw bearing that was on the. It was usually about six Was it? Er somewhere about Aye getting on for five five foot long. Erm th that was sent away to London white metal that that that was quite a costly affair as well. That's the one that you see in this er book you know.. [speaker002:] Is that the one which was having the? [Evan John:] Yes cuts in it. Yes yes. Yes. And erm the old chief that designed er er erm... a boring bath for it for boring that. They they didn't they they just cast them roughly. Well not roughly I mean they I mean they didn't sort of finish them off w wherever they was s sent to in... whatever the firm I I I don't know the name of the firm, I was I wasn't involved in didn't bother as long as the job was done. And erm the He made a boring bath so that the whole block it it was a massive thing you know, that that that had to be. I should imagine weighed somewhere about... five six hundredweight. the capping. Cos of the design of this crusher affair, the whole weight was carried on the c what could be the bap of the bearing you know, the bearing cap. the whole lot down you see. [speaker002:] Oh I see. [Evan John:] On the on the You There was only the was only er three quarter of an inch out of centre sort of thing you know, but the shaft weighed ten tonne and you have this huge and it just l revolved of course and and the whole lot revolved under this cap. So the whole weight of the whole er the gear that actually sent the crusher going and made it so the jaws the swing jaw swing [LAUGHTER] and all that, was er hanging on the cap you see. It didn't matter, the other half didn't matter because it didn't come into contact really with the with the shaft. And erm... the Oh he'd made I'm getting er losing my track. But er he'd made er a boring bath from the chassis of a steam engine. There was a spare [LAUGHTER] one lying around [] We'd finished u er stopped using them during the war some time during the war. Cos coal was hard to get and all that. And er gone on to diesel. And this old chassis had been built up so that this bearing lay on that and it was turned by and electric motor and all that and the boring bar went tool went and bored this bearing out and travelled along on its own its own It was fed off course. you know it was a quite a a brilliant idea really. Cos he was a brilliant man actually my my boss er my chief at the time. He was the erm he came from Anglesey. And he'd been apprenticed in Liverpool... with a firm called they were ship repairers in Liverpool. And er I suppose he he'd gone there when he was about thirteen fourteen and er he came from a family from Where was it. And some of his rel relatives they farmed but some of his relatives were blacksmiths as well you see. So he'd sort of had a well I suppose he'd messed around helped and played about in the smithy. Before he even started erm when he before he went to Liverpool as an apprentice. But he was a brilliant man he was years ahead of his time really. Erm... Ingersoll Rand w wanted him in America. He was offered a job in America with Ingersoll Rand but he wouldn't go. And erm he was by the way he was the er step erm father in law of the man who erm... owned who was the erm building firm er in er er Oh dear they've gone now. It's just been taken over by you know, it's gone into the big big time er Oh dear me, I forget his name now. name of the man. G... Anyway Oh er and er er he had a son who was a a dentist in. John quite a well known dent he was a very good dentist. I suppose he he erm William, William Owen old chief. He used to bring his tools up during the war to er to er so be seen to you know. Cos they they were hard to get. [LAUGHTER]. Oh yes. And er one of the men that was helping the old man to to do something, to repair the the these tools you know, and he he'd gone to the stores to get something and leaning over the counter to get something er er to sort of talk as one goes on a on a counter lean he was leaning a on the counter, and he erm [LAUGHTER] the the the storeman he was a tough little beggar, and he said, I've got a I've got a I've got a toothache. he says. And asked him you know, Erm which one is it? And the other silly beggar opened his mouth and pointed to a tooth you know. [LAUGHTER] And he just dived in there and [] and got hold of it these tools er once you get a hold of those things you know they they're pretty They're fantastic you they won't. I mean them they're designed to er so that they don't slip or anything. And he held on the handle and he pulled the ruddy tooth out. [LAUGHTER] But he pulled thing was sorry thing was [LAUGHTER] that he pulled the one next to the one that he had a toothache in []. Wow [LAUGHTER]. was tough, he's still alive in. Er couldn't have done him any harm. And er No but erm that's how the the old chief. Erm as I say he was a he was brilliant man er I mean we all we I'm about one of the last of the ones that were taught under him. I mean we were very fortunate in having been app er apprenticed under him you see. [speaker002:] Were you were you aware, before you went there, that erm you were going into You were going to serve under someone who was rather talented? [Evan John:] Well I'd heard of him yes. But I was er here I was one of the first People have forgotten that there was such a thing as a fitting shop in you know, in. And I started a fashion really in going, cos no-one had er thought of the thing for many many many years. And erm... later on let's see f when the war started and I mean they wanted cheap labour and all that, there was room for apprentice. Several boys went to the fi [LAUGHTER] to the fitting shop you see but the I'd started I claimed to have started I mean it's I mean there's no credit to me but at least I was the first You know I'd really started the thing you know. [speaker002:] Where had they come from before then? [Evan John:] Oh usually. Yes. Yes. Yes. They knew more about it yes. was the Well I suppose they had first claim in. that sort of thing yeah. But they came with the chief being an Anglesey man you see, they came from Anglesey as well to... erm... they used to come a lot in and erm as apprentices you know [LAUGHTER] And er Aye no, the ol same old game again that er we in Wales seem to inherit it's in I suppose it's in the B B C and everywhere isn't it. [LAUGHTER] It's not what you know, it's who you know. And er somebody's got a relative somewhere. I mean happened even even with the monarchy and all that [LAUGHTER] most Welsh people ran ran England when they didn't have it really did they []. These families that left Wales to help out with the Tudor and all that. [cough] Erm I still er think I think they're still running Britain aren't they. [break in recording] gone way out I've gone gone through to get to... to Llandudno. Erm th this tea making was a a er job of course there was a a break at nine o'clock you see. Cos we started at at half past seven. I used to catch a bus ten to seven, down when the in those days. Never been late in my life. Erm the erm Course the the blasting was on at nine. They used to blast, first blasting at nine o'clock, throughout the quarry you see so everybody had to go in so that was an excuse for a break. About ten minutes break. [LAUGHTER] Then [LAUGHTER] cos you had er... three warnings you got five minutes before and er then you had a the erm final warning and then the blasting and the they give you the all clear. I mean it took about ten minutes, quarter of an hour altogether. So if these beggars up at the top it was had been er thought out had a break well er it was alri right for the others working down in the bottom to have a a break. So nine o'clock break. make the tea, go round the Used to take about three helpings of tea to make the the [LAUGHTER] the bottle []. I remember we I had this sort of enamel brown enamel jug, ooh it was mm must have been somewhere about four. Mm couple of pints at least eh. Oh more three pints I'm sure. Er and erm I used to put it in this and go to... out into the mess room outside where they there was a cook and it was a very grand name for a person you know, a cook. [LAUGHTER] It's almost as grand as a chef these days isn't it. The bloke who [LAUGHTER] sits [] behind the ship in the chip shop. [LAUGHTER] Banging that basket he had they have, [LAUGHTER] Erm [LAUGHTER] and er... the er used to go there er and there was a boil or was it er er an old fashioned I don't know. Have you se have you seen them the old fashioned boilers they used to have? Er sort of Yes, half spherical, [speaker002:] Yes. [Evan John:] cast iron. Built er with bricks built round it and er a tap we used to have a tap on it you see. And the cook in that mess room and the cook was always a youngster who started in the quarry. That's the way you started, up a ladder to the to be a managing director [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] A cook. [Evan John:] You know like like the this thing about every soldier having a a a field marshall's baton in his [LAUGHTER] knapsack []. anyway erm they started at [LAUGHTER] Well you know quite an easy job but the the er s their wage was about sev I I I I forget. I d I wouldn't know. I think my my starting salary at fifteen was seven and six. Out of that I had to find, threepence a day erm bus fare. Excuse me. And we worked six w six I mean we worked Saturday mornings you know, six o'clock. Plus er... going up going to you know, all that. Sos there wasn't much [LAUGHTER] left of the seven and six to kee feed me and all that []. And er I think after and when I became sixteen that er had to start paying your your m paying the union I had to join the union as a junior member you know. And er hospital fund and all this business. Anyway erm so you [LAUGHTER]. our standard of living Well our standard of living was alright. I mean er didn't bring much home. And er the cook I think the boys e had about er started on ten shillings you know, ten shillings a week. Erm but er that was this boy's job and then he used to er you know, scrub the tables in the rest room and of course boil the water first thing in the morning. And er wash the cups and And he used to have to go running er down with messages down to or down to the head office rather that we had an office in where where our fitting shop was where there was a draughtsman's office. And a store, a store a sort of store clerk. Cos we had other people concerned with the stores down in the head office as well, the buyers and. And a couple of young clerks, that's where they bred their clerks for the future use sort of thing you know. [speaker002:] I see. [Evan John:] [LAUGHTER] [] And this cook had to go down and carry messages back and forth and all that was his job as cook. [cough] Not [LAUGHTER] he he couldn't handle a [cough] a roast duck or er couldn't roast a duck or [LAUGHTER] anything like that you know. Or make orange sauce or er anything of that sort []. Er and I don't think any other most of them started and they're still here some of them. Er [LAUGHTER] [] still roast a duck any more than I can. Well er not without a a book of instructions anyhow beside me anyway. Er anyway the that was the cook's job and that was my job, I used to sort of go across and fetch this tea and have it ready by the time the men gave up work at nine o'clock. But er I used to go [clears throat] I didn't eat with the men you weren't allowed to eat with the men you see, it was only the full men that sat round this table well [speaker002:] That was [Evan John:] Half about eight of them you see. Well it was the same no distinction at all in that sense, but er you know we were sort of they had more serious things to talk about than I wan er you know I knew the cook, er couple of o other apprentices from the carpenters shop we used to go into the main th there was no-one to keep an eye on us in the in the mess-room you see, no-one to tell us. So we could play. And erm at the same time there was an old mill there as well, with an old er engine room. Which had apparently been a a steam There had been a steam engine turning this er mill crushing mill and er er I remember there was a name in in this engine it was Queen of the Valley. And erm we used to go and play in that sort of you know do the things that boys usually do. Sort of Oh we used to risk our necks walking across the ruddy this mill was a bit of a wreck actually and we used to go playing in places where we shouldn't have really. Anyway, that's beside the point. But erm and then at during er before lunch and all that I used to have to go take a bucket and go to the smithy and erm as you may know, there's a a cooling er tank beside in the in er beside every every every erm blacksmith's fire and er you know to bo keep the er no t no to keep the nozzle of the [speaker002:] Of the blower? [Evan John:] blower going you see. [speaker002:] Oh. [Evan John:] How do you do? How do you do? [speaker002:] Hi. [Evan John:] And this co er and used to get w hot water from this tank you see, lift it out with a ooh with some sort with a ladle actually. Er and er put it in the bucket and get the right temperature. Up my elbow [LAUGHTER] [] and er... anyway put it used to take it back to the shop and er well I was still inside the shop, down to a certain place in the shop and put it on a on a stand and then there'd be a on that stand, beside the bucket, was a a box of... not Lux not Lux soap [LAUGHTER] but er [] yellow soap. [speaker002:] Oh yes. [Evan John:] in Welsh. And erm slabs of it it had been cut like er it looked you know if you sort of cut lard or something like that. No you don't belong to that age either do you. Erm you know you get it in packets now anyway. But er you know used to sli cut it out of er big chunks. But er there's be lump of this y yellow er stuff you know. And beside that again, another box full of erm well partly full depended on what time of the week it was. Erm dust quarry dust and er... very very fine chippings you know. So you got a handful of this yellow soap. And er rubbed it and it was quite very hard you know. And er put a dollop er dipped your hand into this the grit as well started rubbing [] using the water we'd got. Some hot water. And see my hands they they they're quite they're they're exactly like a er well shall we say an educated person's hand A person who's spent his life working behind a desk. But you know it's funny how why it was so I mean the grit and those were quite sharp you know You you'd have thought that it would have taken your skin but then it was ideal stuff for getting the grease the you know the dirt and I mean the the greasy dirt away. It's easy enough to dirt. That was the method that we used and I didn't I never heard I didn't hear of dermatitis or anything until well twenty five years afterwards. Erm I mean the one could very easily have have got er some form of dermatitis with all the you know various oils and stuff that we had to put our hands in. But erm [clears throat] and all the old mill for milling that we used to used I mean kept our hands clean anyway. So that was one job a and then we had a big used to beg for a an old sack from the stores and open that out and er I used to wash them wash it and get it very soft and clean and hang that up and that's the way used to [LAUGHTER] clean and keep ourselves cl hands clean []. And er but for all this, erm funny enough we we had er a fair in twice a year. we haven't had one for oh many what fifteen, twenty years a co er there used to be a couple of women used to come to sell rock. Up to about twen they kept the thing going their pitch going I suppose twen to about twenty years ago. But we had a a spring fair in April and the other in October. I think so. And the fair was on the first of October. somewhere round that time. I I'd er you know the older men would tell you. Cos I I didn't sort of go by fairs and things like that, I belonged to a different generation. Erm but erm come the time had come for for the fair let's say the the the Spring fair. I'd get quite a surprise because very s small number of men in the shop. I get about shillings eight and six, nine bob pocket money. Fair money they used to call it you see. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Evan John:] Er... I know er perhaps I was er... civil or obedient [LAUGHTER] or whatever, I don't know [] but er I I they u they used to have this this collection for the for supposedly for carrying the water, I don't know. But erm er it was a a nice sum to be to take with you to the fair. You know. Er because it was more than a weeks [LAUGHTER] wages []. To spend evening. And used to happen twice a year and erm sometimes somebody'd remember my birthday or find that I had my birthday or and at Christmas time we used to get some money. And this was out of a you know er I mean they were only what Oh couldn't be more than about six... eight people working in the Well not actually fitters but er you know, they were involved within the shop sort of thing. I don't know how many t other people were approached in this collection, I don't know. But erm they were you know they were exceedingly kind really. Yeah they were very kind too. Cos their salary we we well their wages weren't much. They I believe [clears throat] that er a craftsman's wage was somewhere they'd a take home pay at the end of the fortnight. You'll notice that I say end of the fortnight, that was the settling time. Er was three guineas. [speaker002:] Was it? [Evan John:] It was one and three an hour. the craftsman and fitter's rate in those days. And a labourer's rate was eleven pence an hour. [speaker002:] Mm. Wh what erm what ye what year would this be that you sort of s [Evan John:] I don't k nineteen thirty seven maybe? [speaker002:] Thirty seven? [Evan John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [Evan John:] Yeah. And erm... you know it was a a bad time really b you know it was the thirties I mean people say it's bad now but er I don't think it's it's as bad now as it was then. I know the unemployment figures may be higher and all this business, but erm I mean er [LAUGHTER] a single person during those days, er say a young man in his teens, working would been s stopped in the quarry. They were bad times, they used to stop. Er they were very fair er if I may bring in er this has nothing to do with my er well no it has as well. You know friends of mine, I knew them. Erm they were quite fair the the in this quarry then. Cos if it was slack or anything they they used to stop the bachelors first you know. [speaker002:] I see. [Evan John:] Er you know I I I af I mean after I didn't think anything of it, and in those days I was too young of course to think of th things like that. But thinking back I mean they they were it was very good of them really you know,the they were very fair. Er in the way that they and they sort of well I suppose it was the situation in which the quarries you know sort of or and. And er the... foreman and bosses that knew people and they knew the circumstances and... I suppose they put a word in and erm you know men were sort of stopped because er I mean, if a man had a house full of children or something, he'd probably be the very last you know before he was sort of forced to g you know sacked or wh And I mean they weren't sacked in a sense, they was always ready there was a place ready for them to come back to there. But erm [speaker002:] So [Evan John:] laid off I suppose would be a [LAUGHTER] more appropriate way of s of putting it. [speaker002:] So that it was it was generally thought of as being a fair system? [Evan John:] Yes. In the main I I should think yes. You know you know erm a young man... I mean it was er er reasonable wasn't it for a a single man to be laid off before a married man with family family responsibilities. And er generally er with families being larger er in those days, erm there'd be perhaps another couple of sons working or or something like to help. make a family income you know or or increase the family income. Or So they could all eat at least. And erm... no well as I say, erm I think they were pretty fair.... I mean f I d I doubt whether firms would do it these days eh? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] It wouldn't be considered fair today anyway. [Evan John:] No the union would step in probably and er... say that er last in er first out or some ruddy [speaker002:] Mm. [Evan John:] nonsense like that eh? But that's the memory I have of it eh? [speaker002:] Wh when you went in as an apprentice, did you have any i i idea of what the job was. What it entailed? [Evan John:] Oh yes, erm you know, having been brought up w in a [LAUGHTER] you could almost say a quarrying atmosphere [LAUGHTER] [] that's the right er expression but erm I mean one knew what w went on in the quarry you know. Erm... mind you it was really a step onto something else that as far as I was concerned in those days I meant o go to sea of course and er that was the best place you could have er to serve an apprenticeship because everything er I mean it was one of the As everything was starting to get specialized in in other works nowadays it's gone completely now. But erm we had a sort of a spectrum you know it covered such a wide... well area if you like of er of engineering that one wouldn't have had a chance to to have a any contact with in in any other works, you'd be doing as one certain sphere you know a certain type of work, and there you are you that's your lot eh? But we covered everything you know, steam engines and diesel engines and oh crushers and construction work and development and pneumatic gear, compressors and oh any damn thing that went going. We made everything ourselves more or less. And had a hand in... oh designing really there. We were always taught This er comes back again. I think er you know this our our boss, er who... Mr as he was called he was given his full title of er [LAUGHTER] Mr [] William Owen, then. I mean er much more should have been something should have been Aye he's well worth er within the engineering world at least, well worth looking into his life really. Because he he he's done a a you know he he he's been a a a a what shall I say, a Well he's done a lot really to to to to to promote erm interest in engineering and all that and and he's done a lot in helping er to young men to become engineers and that you know. He he he's erm really er the results of his his interest in teaching. Er North Wales you know have have benefited. Firms in North Wales here along the coast which came after the war of course. [speaker002:] Can you sort of amplify that if you can? [Evan John:] Well [clears throat] As I told you to begin with, he he he he must he was a man was er years ahead of his tim really. I mean and he he although he er he wasn't a graduate or anything like that I mean he he was a brilliant engineer. His ideas are as I they they say that he was er I don't know how much truth I that he was the first that he patented and devised the first rotating drilling machine. Rock drilling machine you see. Cos the f the the the they did have pneumatic drilling machines quarries. For ooh from beginning of the century I suppose. But they were only hammers in a sense. They only hammered the they the the they didn't rotate. [speaker002:] I see. [Evan John:] They just r r rammed their way and you had an man the they had a man they tell me I I've never seen one But erm this was as far as I can make out er by the They had a man standing by you see with a a spanner and er gave it a quarter turn every time it hammered the the drill sort of hit the rock, went into the and hammered. They had to give it a quarter turn you see with a spanner. But erm that old the A and B we used to call them actually. A and B. Erm [LAUGHTER] there was no dis disrespect but A and B [] and er he'd erm he devised a method he what he did he rifled the inside of the the piston. He rifled the inside of the the the the cylinder and the piston was rifled as well, you know slightly ribbed, so as it went forward it turned you see. Came back and there was a er it couldn't turn cos there was erm Oh dear I'm forgetting my engineering terms but er you know it's a that's the. And that's this is er I think I've already told you that he was offered a job with Ingersoll Rand which were the main er people that dealt with air and air products in the old days. The American firm. They tried to get him to America you see. But he wouldn't go there. William didn't want to take his overalls off. [LAUGHTER] Because he he liked to work with his hands. Yes he was a heck of a man. He could he was a brilliant machinist and er oh crikey I've seen him turn out a a three throw er crankshaft within a couple of days er you know without any precise measuring and and and in fact he just sort of put his roll on on on a on the shaft he was turning and just sort of gave him an idea as to I mean his eye was almost as good as many a bloke's measur measurement with a rule. [LAUGHTER] But er a three throw crankshaft for a bump you know couple of days to erm he was a heck of a man. And he dis We had I haven't told you er didn't tell you or h I er don't think I've told you have I, that we did have a... a chemist in the quarry you know. Full time chemist. [speaker002:] Would he be analyzing samples? [Evan John:] Yeah analyzing yes. Mr his name was. And he apparently was a very very nice man too er I mean he was I mean er er er er a nice disposition I mean yeah. they stand out. And er oh he he was... he erm... during the war now come nineteen thirty nine and that stale period when er there was nothing doing really in France, between the time that er our expedition to the to the Maginot line and all that. Er... he went over s there was a plane laid on for him and he was ve went over very often to advise them on fortifications on all their concrete fortifications in France. [speaker002:] Did he? [Evan John:] Yes yeah. Very well thought off actually. And he designed some er I remember them being built. Erm air raid shelters. Built to his design under the rock face up at the top here in. And er concrete and all stuff. And er rock er dropped use that expression, they used they were both right at the at the foot of the... quarry face or precipice or whatever somewhere around a hundred foot high and then th they blasted the top see and dropped a whole fall. A fall is what we call you know a bundle of [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Rock. [Evan John:] rock there. [cough] Ah excuse me. [cough] And erm on this er... structure and obviously there wasn't a everything was fine inside it. Mind you, no-one volunteered to stay inside when it was. But erm all the intact [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Er erm about the it doesn't matter about my voice you see there. Erm about working in the office of the Brothers in Porthmadog. [Aled:] Well Brothers were very early early organized er slate merchants in Porthmadog. Started by my uncle by marriage, Jonathan of, and his brother Richard of. And as I understand it they came down from somewhere er near they obviously were involved in the slate business and then they or organized their own firm Brothers and I believe it was about seventeen er eighty nine, maybe earlier. And their of first office as I recall as a little boy, was on the q quay as we used to say in Porthmadog. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] Now whether it was n near grave's quay or wherever it was, they had a a quay there and of course they had a quay in. [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] Er where the used to bring the slates down from [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] Festinniog and those who went by by train would be transferred to the quay in. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] Those going by sea of course came right down to the quay in in Porthmadog. [speaker001:] Yeah. Would the offices be on the side of where [Aled:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yes. Hill, Hill that would be [Aled:] I think it'd be in that direction. [speaker001:] Yes. Fine. [Aled:] If if we were walking down there now I think I could probably give you the er exact place where it was because I've got a young memory of going in there, we used to er walk around the the you see. [break in recording] Er er shall I go on now? [speaker001:] Yes, yeah. [Aled:] Well I suppose I should introduce myself. Er since I'm experting on my very early youth. My name is Aled Pierce and I was born in the on November the eighth nineteen ten. And er my mother Janet Hughes was a s sister to Mrs Jonathan. And Jonathan was justice of the peace and quite a leader in ar area. After my father's death in twenty three, he was executive of the estate and my guardian. Co-guardian with my mother. So I have close contact with the family from from my childhood. And anyway erm I first went to and the money ran out and so Grammar School, and then er I was transferred to PorthMadog County School where er Jonathan at that time was chairman of the board of governors. And after some slight difficulty I wasn't a very good student, er I finished early before There was no chance of my passing matric anyway. It would have been a w waste of time. So I became er an office boy at Brothers. By this time they had purchased a building which had been I think a a bank or a savings bank or something at Street in Porthmadog. And that's where I served as an office boy, kind of a a latter day Bob Cratchitt. [speaker001:] How old were you then? [Aled:] Well I was between sixteen and seventeen because I think I started r er working there in the... mid Summer or or m early Spring of twenty seven, and worked there through that period, all through nineteen twenty eight, then I emigrated to the United States in nineteen twenty nine. So I was between say sixteen and seventeen and erm Brothers er by this time of course, Mr Richard was dead. And his son in law O J, had become one of the partners and my cousin was one of the partners, but old Jonathan was still the senior partner. The rest of the staff was W old W J, who had been who had worked in the central Post Office I think in London, very well trained in in er office management and so on so on. And then your cousin er Margaret. . And then er James was a doctor of Captain James and er a daughter of Captain James. She had another sister by name of Nellie, went to school with me in in Porthmadog and another one older, I've forgotten what her name was. But we were the staff and er er my uncle Jonathan was a very victorian in every way. I think he was er at one time, head of the er Calvinistic Methodist Church and he was a great chapel goer. And a very strict man and er his word was law. Now and Robert were in the front room sharing a room, and uncle Jonathan had his own room upstairs and there was a little bathroom up there. And then we were down below and er there was erm a table with some antique typewriters on it. And then we had the desks, sloped desks so that these huge big er [speaker001:] Ledgers? [Aled:] ledgers that are now on the archives could be l placed down there and fascinated me because he could add a column of pounds, shillings and pence, he'd take his three fingers at the bottom of the long ledger column, and as fast practically like a computer, would add to the top and then put it in pencil. And then And never made a mistake of course, he tried to teach me but it was just a waste of time. But anyway I did have to do some of them. But my basic job would be kind of a dogsbody for everybody. I had to keep the fire going for example and I had to... go and get er some e Eccles cakes for Uncle Jonathan for his tea. And the telephone number I remember to this day, was Porthmadog so that shows it was at least probably the telephone to to go into being in Porthmadog. [speaker001:] He didn't like using the telephone. [Aled:] But er Uncle Jonathan only used the telephone if if absolutely essential. And necessary. H he thought that er it was very imperative for orderly behaviour and for a well organized and to put things in writing. And as a matter of some real interest, he would have a copy made and for example say that er I was a messenger boy among other things, he would er give me a a written hand written And he wrote beautifully. A hand written note to go to say, er er Lloyd George in George's offices. And William George of course was still practising at that time. Down the road. And and er say send something to William George, or something involving the magistrates cos he was chairman of the of the er of the er [speaker001:] The bench. [Aled:] bench. And he would then call f ring three times I think maybe it was four times, and it was my my job to then run upstairs and I mean fast, you didn't dawdle. And, Yes sir? And he would say, Go on Aled Mr William George. And he'd have written a thing I'm just using William George as an example of course. [speaker001:] Yes. Yeah. [Aled:] And he said, Here's the note. And then he would fold it very carefully and put it in an envelope and then slit the flap he'd he'd not seal the envelope. And he said, Now, he said, Why do I do this? Well I had no idea of course. He said, Well, he said, it's a matter of tradition. That if you send Number one you should never use any messenger unless the messenger is trustworthy. And naturally you expect a member of our own family to be trustworthy. Therefore, he said, you're to show your trust in the messenger, you never seal the envelope. Then the receiver would know that this was a trustworthy messenger and could treat you accordingly. Now, he said, if there's any question of doubt, he'll seal it and then the receiver would know there was some question of doubt, and he would seal back the reply. But if it came unopened, unsealed, he would return the reply unsealed. He said, That is a showing that people are honest. Which made quite an impression on me er have you heard of this before Aled? [speaker001:] No and er what is interesting to me too is that erm in that office, you w w were responsible for carrying me message in the Porthmadog area. Now erm the letters that were er written, there was always copies made. [Aled:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] How was this done? [Aled:] And er this of course er we th the office was being run I would think in the early twenties very much like it was done in the late nineties. And we had all the equipment that was needed, the only new thing wa was a very aged er er typewriter, maybe [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] two. And there was the best one of course, your cousin was able to use. So then er and I had to do with the antique. [speaker001:] The other. Mm. [Aled:] But basically, when my uncle he sometimes would dictate his letters. And your cousin was one of the first one of the few women I ever knew, who could take shorthand in Welsh. Because he wrote quite a few letter in Welsh and he would dictate them to er Margaret. [speaker001:] Margaret. [Aled:] And then she'd type them on this special machine that had indelible ink in it. Then [cough] it was my job to take the original t and take the original because they didn't use erm er black-sheet as we M er Americans call it. [speaker001:] Carbon. [Aled:] D didn't use carbons. You would take then the original, and you'd put it in the copy press. there's be books o of they were leather-bound er letter books you see. And flimsies on them. And you would take this book and you'd put a hard piece of it was a kind of a a cardboard that wouldn't absorb water I've forgotten what the thing was made of. You'd put that down first. Then you'd put the flimsy down. Er no no the out the the original of the er letter down. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] Then you'd put the flimsy over it and then there was a kind of a an e an absorbent kind of a rag the right size, not too wet, cos if it was too wet it would run. And you'd put that on top of the flimsy and you'd close the book and you'd take the book and put it in the letter press and squeeze it Archimedes theory of a screw and this thing My cousin later told me, was bought third hand in eighteen sixty nine. So God knows where it was built. And er it's cast iron of course, with a steel screw and then er big brass balls on the end of this thing and then you would squeeze it down and then if you did it correctly, you took it out and the indelible ink, would have transferred the actually letter including the signature on the flimsy which was then filed in the [speaker001:] Ledger. [Aled:] in in in the ledger. In the letter ledger you see. For for every amen. And then you mailed the letter or delivered the letter or whatever was necessary. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] Now you didn't have to copy everything, but Uncle Jonathan was very meticulous and anything that there would be any debate on, or any discussion on, he always made a copy and it was my job to do this without smearing it. And if I smeared a copy, God help cos then there'd be a problem. Er [speaker001:] How many of these a day would you have? Was it quite a lot? [Aled:] Oh yes, because er we had a lot of letter going back an forth to architects or to other slate merchants or to quarry owners. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] Or er you know er quotations on this, [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] and quotations on that. And you had to be careful and you had to keep your hands clean. That was one of the orders, there was a little bathroom down in the in the first floor and the thing that they must not get, was your hands dirty. Now old wore a black thing afore his shirt, now because he was with ink all over him you see, but he he he didn't do this. That was my job so therefore my hands had to be constantly clean and that's not easy for a seventeen year old to keep his hands clean all the time but I had to. And if you did smear it, there was all hell to pay because then, Margaret, your cousin, would have to retype it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] And then I'd have the joy of taking it up to Uncle Jonathan to get a new signature and of course he'd know that something had gone wrong and then he'd [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] looked over his glasses you see. And then they had a dumb waiter from er the main office to and... and Robert's office and and did not suffer fools gladly either. [LAUGHTER]. And so he'd holler down, he wanted a certain book of correspondence and invariably you might put the wrong one in. And once I nearly got my head flattened, cos I sent up the wrong thing and bang he sent it down and I just got my head out of there in time. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Aled:] But this was a part This was a very dangerous job to stick your nose up in there. But then. we had a strong room were some of the very confidential matters, estates and all that kind of stuff, er was kept and some money kept. And because er as I said, this had originally been a bank or a [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] savings and loan or something and this was a big strongroom in there. And it was a lot lot of fun you see, to to get in there I hope will never hear this, to get in there and squeeze her. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Aled:] [LAUGHTER] In the strong room. [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [Aled:] But er then there was erm a desk we had big stools and poor old was trying desperately to get me to add correctly you see, and he'd he'd let me add and then he'd always find there was a mistake in it and he'd try to tell me why. Didn't carry this, didn't carry that. But I was supposed to do some of the clerical work. But he checked every bit of my work of course and so most of the time do it by himself and let and me do other things. And then the table where the girls sat on their typewriters, then there was a on this on a hall, you came into a hall. And there was erm a kind of a glass door, a sliding door with a er b bell push on it. So that if somebody come in to call, they'd pull this thing and then Mr or somebody would open the the sliding door and you see. [LAUGHTER] So [] one time I made a very sad mistake, Somebody pushed the bell, and I opened it and I said, I'll have two bitters. And it was my Uncle Jonathan. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Aled:] Well this was not very good. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Aled:] So orders were given that I was not under any condition to open that thing unless I knew [LAUGHTER] who was there []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You also got into trouble about the press didn't you? [Aled:] Oh yes. Trying to impress er and your your cousin, on my strength you know, young men always try to sh show women of any age, how strong they are. Up to a certain point. I've reached that point now. I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Aled:] I I was trying to show how tight [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] I could squeeze this [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] thing and cracked it. So naturally I had to get it with and it was heavier th I don't know how much it weighed, I I I got it by the way, in my barn in farm in Indiana, one of the last relics of Brothers. And I had to put it on the seat of my bicycle, push it all the way and it'd be a good mile from Street to right across from. To have them er weld it. Cos it was cracked, it was useless of course. And and I had to pay for it of course. Now I was making ten shillings a week, and I had to pay a penny toll every day to come to... from office. And then I had to pay tuppence in cafe for a cup of tea and mother would fix me a sandwich. And occasionally if I was really flush, I'd buy a little cake for another tuppence you see. Couldn't afford to go to they was too expensive. [LAUGHTER] Anyway I had to push this thing and had to wait for it. No no I wasn't allowed to wait for it cos it was gonna take peddled all the way back to do something else. And the next day I picked it up and of course it was ten shillings, my full... [speaker001:] Week's wages. Yes. [Aled:] week's er wages and erm and I'd deservedly so, it was my own damn fault. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Aled:] It was years later that my cousin who dies some years ago, he was ninety two. Told me that at just about the same age, he did the same thing to try and impress the then girl in in the office. So anyway that was one of the reasons, when I found that Brothers was slowly going out of business, when I saw last in, and I asked him if er I could have this thing? And he said, Well, he said, you go and see. was still there. This was many years ago now ab ten years ago I guess, so I went and saw and of course, erm Mr was dead and his son was running it and had sold his shares. But anyway, they allowed this that they didn't have any further use for it that I could have it. SO I asked some friends of mine who were in the antique business from, Indiana, pick it up. And I've got it at home. But er it was interesting that both young men [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] s s several decades apart, had broken this about the same place you see. [speaker001:] When you were in the office,wh was there much contact with overseas countries, were they shipping a lot of slate? [Aled:] Yes there was still some contact with Hamburg, and there was still some contact with other Baltic ports and then there was some contact in repairing of of erm s churches. I think I think there was som some sent to Chester for example, I think they were doing something in the cathedral in Chester. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] And then you were talking about San Francisco earlier, now there are some churches in San Francisco that had Welsh slate and it must have gone by sea all the way [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] to to to San Francisco before my time. The one that I remember and I hope that that er the papers are either here in Caernarfon in the archives or p possible in the National Library because my cousin, gave most of the Brothers papers that he had control over [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] to the National er [speaker001:] Library. [Aled:] Library in Wales. And I understand that have given you the balance here. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] So therefore the the Brothers are divided. And anyway the thing that I remem recall vividly, this happened in nineteen early nineteen twenty eight. It was years later that I knew all about it. But the Rockefeller Brothers as you probably know, have spent millions of dollars in redoing er Williamsburg, Virginia which was the colonial capital. And also where from taught at William and Mary College. And is buried there. And er William The college of William and Mary is still going of course. They're one of the fine universities of Virginia. But anyway, some lawyer I think in New York, working for Rockefeller Brothers, sent a piece of slate to my Uncle Jonathan, asking him could he tell, what quarry in Wales, this particular tile had come from. Because the governor's palace was in a state of very sad repair and they had to put a new roof in it. And they had come to the conclusion that it was not American slate cos there were no quarries in that time. Even in Pennsylvania, and that this was Welsh slate taken probably from Bristol in Ballast to get tobacco back. So I cannot tell you now, I can't remember where the quarry was whether it was North Wales Quarry, whether it was Slate Quarry down in in in [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] South Wales, because Uncle Jonathan was part owner of the Quarry. And as you know, the slate's on [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] on er er the college here in [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] in Bangor. And but anyway, I remember this inquiry coming in. And the old man saying exactly what quarry it came from. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] And then writing back to this contact i either in New York or in Virginia or wherever it was, saying that it th they would give him the dimensions of the roof, that they could tell him exactly how many slates they'd need to cover it. So many squares you see. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Aled:] So e eventually, in due course, Brothers got the order. To furnish the slates to reroof the governor's palace in Williamsburg Virginia. And I hope when you go there e Aled that you'll look at that because that's all Welsh slate. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] And handled by Brothers now. I I remember working on some of the of the paperwork involved in it. We had a you know there was a lot of paperwork involved. We had to but the slates, we had to er g get the right dimensions, the right thickness and all that stuff. And so I worked on it as as a kid now. I wasn't er the main one of course because it was [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] all very high mucky muck stuff and they wouldn't trust me with anything but at least I did the copying work on it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] So it must be in the records somewhere. [speaker001:] Yeah that's very interesting. How many slate shippers were there in in PorthMadog when you were in the office, was there another shipper? [Aled:] Well was er er er was [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] sending slates and er... I think I don't know if there are any o er er many of the slate merchants had gone. [speaker001:] Had gone out of business, yeah. [Aled:] There were some of course in in Bangor and Caernarfon. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yes. [Aled:] From the. [speaker001:] Yes. But not in Porthmadog [Aled:] Not in Porthmadog I think I think that I think that Brothers probably was the last. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] Slate merchants. [speaker001:] Erm David the shipbuilder was still alive then wasn't he I think. Do you er did but they hadn't built a ship in Porthmadog since nineteen thirteen. disappeared? [Aled:] No I remember I er I don't remember the yard. [speaker001:] No. [Aled:] But I remember so I remember the ships some of the ships in in Porthmadog. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] Because er on another er matter, my Uncle John John from from er. During the first war he'd he'd lost a ship and so finally he decided to buy a ship and he bought two little schooners in f in Porthmadog. One I think was the industry and the other was was it the Brendan that he says in [speaker001:] Yeah. Brandon yes. [Aled:] Well I remember being aboard the Brandon, because Uncle John came and stayed with us at the cliff and er, er father was at sea somewhere but he came and stayed with us and then he now went down into er to see his captain cos they were sailing on on the tide the next day. I think they were going somewhere to Ireland, I'm not sure, but they had a load of of slates. For somewhere and and something else. May maybe something I don't know what they. [speaker001:] How many crew would there be on the Brandon? [Aled:] About four or five. And anyway, they sailed cos I was aboard the night before they sailed as a. This was about nineteen seventeen. You see I I'd be about seven. But I was interested in the sea, I wanted to go to sea, and and er Uncle John was my pirate uncle I thought. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] very fond of. And erm he'd gone to sea at a very early age and had er both steam and sail and you k I've given you his history, er and he was quite a fellow. But the only thing I know is that that ship was sunk by the Germans in Cardigan Bay. Probably the next day. And I was interested in seeing er er your T V series about this ship from Porthmadog that was sunk in the Mediterranean. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] But you didn't mention a a thing about a ship being sunk in cardigan Bay. Maybe you didn't know about it. Anyway, the only we know is that the lifeboat was washed ashore near, and not a sign of of men on it. So the men all were lost. And as I recall, there was some talk that there were some machine gun bullets in in in in the boat. [speaker001:] In the boat. Yeah. [Aled:] In the boat. [speaker001:] And this was nineteen seventeen? [Aled:] About nineteen seventeen, towards the end of the war. [speaker001:] Cos there were a lot of losses of course o in after the convoys had been introduced for the ocean thing but they hadn't introduced convoys for inshore. [Aled:] That's right. [speaker001:] And this is where the ships were being lost. [Aled:] That's right. And of course [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] a a sailing vessel was duck soup. [speaker001:] Absolutely. [Aled:] And of course er the Cardigan Bay is dangerous for submarines God knows but they were pretty good submariners, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] the Germans were. [speaker001:] Yes. And they would be [Aled:] They'd be they'd be on their way If they were going to Ireland, they'd be a a a well away from St Patrick wouldn't they? [speaker001:] Yes. Oh absolutely. No you w to go back to your days in the office, erm you say that there was er er this group of wo people working in the office. [Aled:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm... were there er opportunities for boys in Porthmadog to get erm work or was it a a period when it was difficult to get work? [Aled:] Well er don't forget it was it was after the w after the war and the depression. You see the shell factory at er at had closed down and of course there was a lot of women and er out of work there and boys too. And the ex the explosives were just starting up. Th they had been Mi Ministry of munitions works [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] Making T N T in in. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] And the quarries of course were er the the the pretty dead. The quarries never fully recovered really after the big strike you know. [speaker001:] and also of course the fact that the German market had closed. [Aled:] The German market had closed. [speaker001:] Which was the reason the raison d'etre [Aled:] That's right because you see the the German Mark was worthless. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] In the twenties. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] And er you you the I even if they wanted to to to buy Welsh slates, [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] They didn't have the wherewithal. [speaker001:] No. [Aled:] And of course another thing and and my Uncle Jonathan was a very great liberal and a great believer in free trade, but I think his faith in free trade started to take a a bashing because he was inundated by French and Belgian sl er er not slate er [speaker001:] Tile. [Aled:] Tile. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] Was coming i [break in recording] [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] in other words, there were very n very little new building [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] going on with with with the specifications of of of of slates. I remember for example having to to to send reams of letters to architects [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] and I found that you do not address an architect as Mr Jones, it must be Edward T Jones Esquire. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [Aled:] And er because they were professional men you see. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To come back to Jonathan for a moment, you say he was a great liberal, he was an admirer of Lloyd George? [Aled:] He was one of Lloyd George's very early supporters. And er whether this is true or not is immaterial, it's part of the family er story that when Lloyd George was importuned by the this family up in. Er w and he'd been turned down by and all the other er top lawyers in [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] in in Porthmadog or on taking on er the the Bishop of Bangor, I mean that was taking on [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] A pretty important er creature you see. And er the story's been told many many times that Lloyd George advised them, I've forgotten the name of the old man, but his wife was buried in the churchyard, and his family wanted to bury him next to her, but they wanted the nonconformist [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] minister [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] to do the the honours. And of course the disestablishment, disendowment bill had passed but No it had not passed then. It was one of the things that brought it about but they they could bury her there, but only the Anglican [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] priest could er do the honours. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] You know, the nonconformist was anathema. So Lloyd George as the story goes, advised them to go there with their father and take some crowbars with them, and not to break down the gate, to break down the wall, and take their minister with them and bury their father. Then he said, the Bishop of Bangor will have to sue you. Then I'll take the case. Well he was just a struggling young lawyer in Porthmadog. But a close personal friend of Jonathan. Jonathan was a was a coming up he was then, not then a Justice of the Peace but he was a up and coming young young er business man in Porthmadog and of course Porthmadog was a very er prosperous place at that time. And the slate merchants were doing alright because there were thousands and thousands of tonnes of slate going through their hands. And so the story goes that he er said he would support David er David G Lloyd George and help on this case. And the story that I heard which may not be true that he had he didn't have the wig and gown. Because it eventually went it a high court you remember. And so er well they hired it from Moss Bros they did, Uncle Jonathan paid the fee, for the rental of the of the gown and whatnot to to try this case. But that's what I was told, whether it's true or not, maybe the Lloyd George people deny it but there it is. He didn't have much money you see at that time. [speaker001:] What else do you remember about Porthmadog, you were talking about it d during the war years now for example when you were a very young boy. Erm what else do you remember about Porthmadog during that period? [Aled:] Well I remember er there was a fella by the name of Have you ever run across him? Or? Who was a second or third officer on the Lusitania. And he ended up as the port captain for Cunard in New York. Because they had to keep him there for so damn long in this inquiry er the senate inquiry and all the stuff on the Lusitania. So he finally they made him port captain for for Cunard and I knew him. He he was a contemporary of my cousin. That's one thing I remember. And then of course there was always... young men being lost at sea. And erm my my Mrs Jonathan, my aunt Auntie Bessie, invariably in Porthmadog, went to call on the families of people who'd been lost, as my mother did in in we lost you see in fifty two men killed in world war one. And er I remember one one day, there was nineteen of them. maybe it was the battle of the Somme, I don't remember, but I remember I had to go carrying the basket, and mother would go and call on these poor people who had lost their their families. And occasionally I'd go with Auntie Bessie in in Porthmadog you see. [speaker001:] Do you remember the any particular vessels being lost? Do you remember [Aled:] The Brandon I remember. [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] Because I was aboard her. [speaker001:] Mhm. That's right yes. [Aled:] But erm [speaker001:] Did you see any of the other schooners in there? Do you remember [Aled:] Oh yes there used to be a lot of schooners. Then there was an old ship, the Spooner, [speaker001:] Yes the Sea Spooner. [Aled:] Sea Spooner, now she became a hulk didn't she. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] And she was laying up by the quay by where they've got those [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] silly buildings now. But she was there when I was a boy and even when I went to school in Porthmadog. [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] When did she b break up eventually? [speaker001:] Er [Aled:] Must have been the thirties. [speaker001:] Ye yes I think so, yes. And the Elizabeth came back to er Porthmadog at the end of the war I believe and was erm she was a schooner and also didn't er er David the builder buy some submarines for scrap or something? [Aled:] Seems to me that there was some and then of course the Wave of Life [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] I rem vaguely remember her. [speaker001:] You may remember her yes. Yeah yes. [Aled:] Vaguely you see, seeing her puffing up and down. [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] We'll stop there erm for a minute. [speaker001:] Does this make sense? [break in recording] [Aled:] Now another er I remember after the war, er 's explosives took over the works in in. And they started er exporting whatever they were making, explosives. A lot of them of course went to the quarries, but then they had a little steamer called the Florence Cook and she plied wherever she went and you probably know where she went. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] Used to go to Liverpool I think. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] And some other places. Maybe maybe Wrexham somewhere. But she I remember her going in and out of Porthmadog. [speaker001:] 's father was master of her at one stage. [Aled:] Was he? Was he? [speaker001:] Yes that was a point of contact [Aled:] Yes. [speaker001:] And Jack of course went ran her out once I think. [Aled:] Yes. Jack of course er er I I know I've known him know him in the United States, but er Jack jumped ship in Baltimore. [speaker001:] Yes. [Aled:] I don't know what ship he was on? [speaker001:] No. No. Jumping ship No he w he went to the United States, so did you. When did you go to the United States? [Aled:] Well I went to the United States, I I I sailed from on the R M S Corinthia, from Liverpool on the twenty eighth of September, nineteen twenty nine, and arrived in New York, on the seventh or eighth of September in nineteen twenty nine, which was just one week before the stock market crash. And I was er I was er let me see, eighteen years and ten months old. And er I of course always wanted to go to sea, but er wh with two drowning in the family, er mother w w didn't appreciate that much. So anyway I finally persuaded her that I'd that I'd like to emigrate to to the United States and she we I had some contacts in the United States of course, through her. [speaker003:] I'm sorry to disturb you. [speaker001:] That's alright. [speaker003:] May I just put this on [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Mr 's desk. [Aled:] Right. [speaker001:] . [speaker003:] I'll take these away too. [Aled:] Thank you very much for the coffee. [speaker003:] Have you got your [Aled:] Very good. [speaker001:] Yes yes thank you. thank you very much. [speaker003:] Right [Aled:] Er now it's it's rather interesting er as an aside, I'd heard that the Central African mounted police were trying to hire young men of er er at least sound mind and probably tough body. And the theory was that if you served thirty years in the Ce Central African police, you'd be given a section of land in what later became Rhodesia. And of course I I wanted some land as I presume all Welshmen are land hungry. And especially since we were freeholders, er but anyway, er thank God I wasn't quite old enough. And I didn't go, but a chap that I knew from whose name I can't remember at the moment, did go and he was killed within about three months of his er arriving in Africa. Probably I would have been too. But so then my mother... My mother's father and the father of Golden Rule Mayor Jones of Toledo, Sam Jones, born in were first cousins. And er Golden Rule Jones there's all kinds of stories about him of course. He became a very rich man but he he er ran his company based on the golden rule [speaker001:] Which was? [Aled:] To do unto others as you would have others do unto you. He was the first man to organize an eight hour day, and two weeks' vacation with pay. And erm there's a lot they've they've they've done some television work on him and anyway er in nineteen O three, he came over in the you know about in nineteen hundred with his family and I've got a picture of them in that's where he came from in. And from is quite a he's doing some research into him and who comes form you know these people. And they're chasing chasing him. Well he was my my mother's first cousin you see. So he invited her sent her a ticket to come to America for a year in nineteen three. But my grandmother was an old victorian, my mother would not then insisted that she have a chaperon, so Mrs Jonathan, Auntie Bessie, went with her. But er according to my mother's great joy, she got seasick even on the landing stage in in Liverpool and never came out of her cabin, so she had a big time as a young women running around the ship. And old man Heinz of Heinz fifty seven varieties, they were a big time, and gave her a little silver pickle with Heinz on it. sterling silver, and I've still got it. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, she went to so she had she she wasn't she'd been very pro American until I decided I was gonna emigrate. But anyway, she made me promise that my first day in New York, I'd go to... Statue of Liberty. Now Statue of Liberty of course is in in the news. And when I was when I got to New York, I was met by two first cousins from two different families er Bert who's er er nephew of my my mother's sister Laura Anne in in New York, and another one, William who'd been very successful vice president of or something. So anyway, erm they met me and Bert had to go back to his office and Will said he had to go back to his office, but he said, What would you like to do? I said I'd like to go see the Statue of Liberty, I promised my mother I would. Well he said, Alright, he said,... I've made arrangements for your baggage to be picked up and you'll stay with me in New Rochelle, and he was going away and he slipped me ten bucks cos I only had ten pounds money. And he said, here's a cab, and you tell this cab driver where you want to go. So I had no idea where this place was, I knew where it was at the chart but I didn't know where it was from from pier fifty four in New York. Cunard Pier. So I got aboard this cab, and the guy said, Buddy where do you want to go to? And I didn't know what this buddy meant? And I said, I want to go to 's Island. He said, Where? And I said, 's Island. He said, Never heard of it. I said, Obviously you haven't read the chart, that's where the Statue of Liberty is, on 's Island. Cos I had studied the chart to k know something about er and I I presume I was one of the few people in New York, who knew the damn thing was on 's Island you see. Anyway I went there and I was impressed, I'd seen it from the ship and I completely concur with everything that's been said. How all those immigrants and children of immigrants, that the Statue of Liberty, means a great deal to those Americans who whose parents or who came themselves from another country. Now I wasn't coming I wasn't a refugee from anything except unemployment. But erm er the on that ship I remember we stopped at Queenstown. And I remember a whole boat-load of these young Irish lads and lasses coming aboard you know, weeping and wailing. And there was a guy with one arm, and saying, you know, Come ye back to Ireland. You know. very moving but we had a big big time and of course when you're eighteen, er it'd be an adventure. And of course er I knew something about America, my mother had been there and er we had some c I had eighteen first cousins in America when I went there. But anyway, my job was to go out to Toledo. And stopped on the way of course in. And they tell the story you know about the Welshman from or erm or somewhere, emigrating to America and heard about all his life as being the great Welsh centre. And we got to New York.. How much bigger will be? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Aled:] in his mind was bigger than New York. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] But anyway er New York in those days, first time I ever remember, I ran into the flappers you see. Girls with silk stockings and and the girls in in er Wales I must say, and even in Liverpool in those days, used to wear stockings. [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] But these silk stocking things you know just [speaker001:] Yeah. [Aled:] drive a man up the wall. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Aled:] But anyway er that's when I went and then I went from there to Toledo, Ohio. And er what I had done really was to skip going into the bank. Er my brother John had been er gone to work for the Bank in and unfortunately was drowned in an accident when he was not quite twenty. And he had begged my mother not to ever put me in the bank. And the only examination that I ever voluntarily and with malice aforethought, [speaker001:] Mm. [Aled:] er failed, was the Bank examination, entrance examination in Colwyn Bay in nineteen twenty seven I think it was. And that's one of the reasons I ended up I ended up in in Brothers because I had missed the chance to go into work with the Bank you see. And I didn't want to go work for the Bank. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Ah. Can you er can you tell me wh wh wh where you were born Mr? [Richard (dick):] Yes in a little street it's not there now, down here called Street. There were seven houses there. And only yards and horses stables and things round there you know, in them days. Then we come in here it was a repaired house this was. This street here, in nineteen what wa nineteen eight I think. Aye. Yes it was. Aye. [speaker001:] H how h h h h how many were in your family then? [Richard (dick):] Well in this house? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Richard (dick):] Well my mother had six children but the first baby died and we ere there was another five. I think, there's only two of us alive now. I've got a sister in er... Colwyn Bay somewhere she'd living yes. Aye [LAUGHTER] and last time I seen her was about five years ago. And the children's coming here aye,. Ah all these, there was no yar houses across the road there. There were yards of slate here to there. [speaker001:] That's on the other side of [Richard (dick):] Yes. [speaker001:] of Street here. [Richard (dick):] Yes. [speaker001:] What did your what did your father did did did he do then? [Richard (dick):] He worked in but he used to go and relieve the sailors and firemen in the steam boats he used to go you know. When they were needed one. You know the man in charge of them was they called him, always used to go and fetch him to go if they needed er or somebody lost their passes and. Er and I went there as a boy after engines and things you know, in then, do you remember them? No, steam engines shuntings. They were coming down from the Quarry, bigger engines. They were a little bigger than this the ones they had shunting here. There was two of them and they used to go all day at the quarry for to get bring the slates down to. [speaker001:] H how how old were you wh when you started? [Richard (dick):] Fourteen. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] Yeah. Well yes. I'm supposed just to answer you, that's all isn't it. [speaker001:] Well no you No you you say anything that you want to add, that will you know fill in all the gaps. [Richard (dick):] Aye fourteen I was. I think I'd been Yes a few weeks couple of three weeks perhaps in the slate yard behind there, they used to make slates for schools there. Oh there was about two dozen boys and a lot of men there, there was about a hundred working in that place then. Yeah. And then before that boys used to go and gather cockles in the sand outside er not here, other side of you know. And bloody things here the whole time, these cockles were everywhere they were we liked them, the boys did, aye. [LAUGHTER] Ah. And there's only me living you know. I got er a nephew living in Leicester. Arnold his name is. And he comes here sometimes. And then I just go about myself all day. Perhaps to the beach here, or [LAUGHTER] passing the time. Cos I had you see.. [speaker001:] Wh when you started working as a lad, erm what did you have to do? [Richard (dick):] when I went to you mean? [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Before that other place. That p Oh I was doing nothing there only tidying up round there. If a ship had been there loading, well there was a couple of us boys used to tidy up after er after the and things on there see. And we used to tidy up things like that. Er we didn't do much [LAUGHTER]. Cos there were we were only getting about five bob a week aye. Aye. And then er like like that. And er I joined this territorials they come and then I joined them, and we went to Camp Parkgate for a fortnight. We were we hadn't been home a couple of two or three weeks then the big war started, nineteen fourteen. Fourth of August so we had to go see. We were belonging to the territorials then. And then we had to go straight away there and we went different places, Northampton,s you know different places in the country like, in England. And and in Wales yeah we forget where we were there. But we went to had a lot of joi jointer then joiners men. And we had to go to France then. Er Belgium and France where I was in we were in. And we had n old naval guns. Old naval guns. Their muzzle was a long as from here to that door there. [speaker001:] About [Richard (dick):] Yes. From here to that door. [speaker001:] About eight feet long? [Richard (dick):] Yes. The muzzle were they had nothing else you see. They wouldn't give us. I was a bugler, trumpeter with them. There was two of us on horses then, there was no motors then you know. No, only horses, horses dragging these big guns. About six horses on them. In each gun, four of them. Yeah and then the horses used to go down out to the line see. Well the Germans was shelling and these B things but we had sixty pounder guns then. They were very short muzzle things, but them old things there like that, they were jumping when you were firing them you know. They were [LAUGHTER] yeah. [speaker001:] What w what was it like when you you first w w went over there, I mean having been here in in and then all of sudden finding yourself in France? [Richard (dick):] Ah we feel oh we were we enjoyed ourselves there. [LAUGHTER] That's all I can remember ever. [] Yeah. But I come home, well in the end. lots more lads were killed do you see, lots of them eh? Well there was thousands killed see the infantry was and there were loads more all round you see? Yeah. And all the country there then, well France we were first, then we shifted to Belgium. Nothing, only and mud and dirt and everything else. And walking about up to here some of the times in mud. And we had on these shoes you know. Boots I mean t you know. Yes.. And the first trench we went in, the communication trench was. [speaker001:] Was it? [Richard (dick):] Aye we was shifted about then, different places yeah. And er I had a touch of a there was a gas shells dropped somewhere quite not far from me. And I had a snuff of that then I wasn't right for a while. I went down to Boulogne to an hospital there. got better they sent me back. [LAUGHTER]. Aye.. Course my best friends were killed there. A m A man named Harold from, and while I was in that hospital with that bit of a gas shell, he er he g fellow came and told me there, to Boulogne that he was dead, killed. Aye never they never seen him after. A lot of them getting killed there. But I was lucky. I remember when after it finished, I went back to for a while I went with ports and things like. To different ships aye. Belonging to Liverpool and them places like that. And travelling round Ireland, travelling round Ireland all all round it, Cork all round with slates from here. Yes. The a good life you know. And sometimes used to get a bit of a a bad storm ahead so we used to especially if you went from here to er North of Scotland round Cape. in bad weather we used to go into what was it they called Long Hope or something and anchor there. Er well there'd be a lot of us ships there then. About a dozen there. But we couldn't go ashore until it got better ad then we went round the cape after and down into Aberdeen see. That's what we used to do [LAUGHTER] with these ships. Aye. Aye got to Bangor there and my father's photo's on that. [speaker001:] Is he? [Richard (dick):] Aye. Have you got them here. [speaker001:] No I they're in the archive [Richard (dick):] Aye my father's leaning on the bridge like that. [speaker001:] I have to I h I when I get to the office, I'll h I'll h I'll have a look a bit closer. [Richard (dick):] Yes, you can see him. The like that. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Richard (dick):] On a bridge, it's like this wasn't it. Bangor her name was. There was another ship the same as her called the and another one called the Harrier. They had a few ships. They, you heard of her? [speaker001:] I've heard of her [Richard (dick):] shelling ship she was. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Well my brother was with went with that one once a boy As a boy. But I took him first to Connor's Quay to join a sh erm ship there. I forget her name. Well anyhow when we went there, I told er the captain like. Well what do you want? he says to me. Well I've been sent from Bangor. There was a sailing er what do they call it, a here and it was him that he asked would could you send a boy there. So I took my brother who was younger than me, about four or five years see. The first ship he went in, he was for about two years. And then he left her and he went with this three masted top schooner she was, very fine ship. Aye. And then I don't know where he went after of course. I went different places. I landed in the end me, on the railway. Bangor here. [speaker001:] Did you? [Richard (dick):] Aye. Yes well we I I'd been working on the Menai Suspension Bridge repa you know, when they were rep doing the repairing like. I went there and asked the fella for a job, and he says, How are you on heights? he says. Oh I'm alright, I says to him, I've been in ships and. Alright you can start, he says to me. And I were I was doing the job there th that's how I started on working on shore. And er of course that job finished then. And er I had a brother in law on the railway there. So he told me to go and ask for a job there. I went I forget er No I don't forget the name of the foreman. Jack his name was anyhow. A bit of a rough chap you know, nice but very rough. What have you been doing before, he says to me. I told him I worked on the Menai Suspension Bridge. Oh you're on yes, go on, start tomorrow morning he says to me, with Fighting Mack. There was a fella called Fighting Mack there. You start with Fighting mack, in the tube there tomorrow. And that's how I worked there. er and then I think Oh I was there for about two years after [speaker001:] You so s so you worked in [Richard (dick):] I worked there two years after my time. After er sixty five you know. Yeah. And then I'd er aft finished then and miserable around here aye and in the town I used to get a job here and there. Th then you know from someone or or other. Well now anyhow I there's only me here and I er was ninety three last birthday. Last September. Yeah I was born in eighteen ninety two see. I think I'm the oldest one round here. [speaker001:] Yes I think you are. [Richard (dick):] Yeah I think so too. [speaker001:] I think so. [Richard (dick):] Aye cos I remember a lot of old people here. A lot of old sailors you know er in them days, when I was a kid aye. [speaker001:] W were there w was there a great seafaring [Richard (dick):] Ships sailing ships there were, haven't you seen the picture of them sailing ships. [speaker001:] I've seen photographs but it's, to have people who were actually there is quite rare really. [Richard (dick):] Well the ships were there, there was no steamboats in them days you know. w er only sailing boats and they used to be anchored here years ago, down on the beach there. And they used to call on when they were giving the turns to go there and load. My father was working loading there. Er [speaker001:] Were a lot of people employed o on them er fo from? [Richard (dick):] Pardon? Oh Yes yes, you know, five and six in some small schooners yes. But in the was ten I think. They she belonged to she was iron ship she was to. Yes. And she used to run from here to Hamburg and London. With slates and about nine crew on her. Nice ship she was too. My brother was with her for a long while. Oh he was a proper sailor, different to me you see. [speaker001:] What's the difference? [Richard (dick):] Well er he started right. Started as a boy he did. I and I took to Connor's Quay as a sailing ship and I and then of course I hadn't been much in sailing ships. I used to work as a boy I did on. And then when I got er old enough I used to go in the gang like the men, and er get the same and piece work we were working loading the ships. Loading the barrels. And wheeling them to the ship you know, then after you'd been there a long time, well my father was a down below and I went to his shop then you see. That's how we learnt. [LAUGHTER] So in the ship was a a nice thing you know. Cos slates you know going and rolling round and jumping. Because they w they weren't shifting do you see. But there's a funny thing, I was lucky in there. I was with Pamela, she come up, new ship you know then. And I was with her till I left her somewhere in Southampton, I'd been in her a good while too. Somebody pinched something off me so, Bugger all this, I said, I left her there. And come home here. Well I went to in oh about twelve months after that or less say, and er she wanted a man there, I went down there and asked could I have a job back you know. Well he was just too late, he says, there's a fellow from Oh never mind, maybe a chance again. She was lost all hands aboard. [speaker001:] . [Richard (dick):] In about a fortnight after it. Aye. [speaker001:] Good good. [Richard (dick):] And she was a new ship too, aye. She had a bad cargo see, they hadn't er some stuff and they hadn't stored her properly and she turned over and they all got drowned. There was one chap with her, he'd been in oh for years. And his ship was called. He was from and he'd been out of work a long time. Willy, his name was, I remember him well. he got lost and drowned with her. He was from. [speaker001:] And and [Richard (dick):] Aye, I'm lucky you see. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Well I'm not to brag too much I I've been lucky haven't I? [speaker001:] Very lucky. [Richard (dick):] Aye. Yes aye. And er this is what I do, Well I used to do jobs round here for a while or I've chucked it up now aye. I don't get nothing. cos I worked two years all the time I had a few bob for that extra that's all. Cos I can't get to what you call this a thing now, social security. The the guy can't get that cos I had a few shillings more after working two years. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Richard (dick):] Aye. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's not fair r really is it. [Richard (dick):] No well that's the way the country's doing now isn't it. I don't think anybody works overtime now do they, over their age? [speaker001:] Very rarely. [Richard (dick):] Aye I should think so, unless they're working for themselves right. [LAUGHTER] There is some fella he's working in his back yard and he's hammering all day, I I wish he'd give it [LAUGHTER] up []. But he's not out there today either, he started this morning, I can't hear him now. Ah. [speaker001:] You said that erm or you implied that it was important to stow the c the erm slates v v very carefully. [Richard (dick):] Oh Oh yes. You had to store them. There was what they called gangs you see, you know they had planks didn't they. Have you ever seen them? [speaker001:] I've seen photographs. [Richard (dick):] . And they used to Two men on the shore loading, course there was men counting the slates do you see. There was thousands and thousands. And er then th one man used to load the barrel, and the other man was to put them down the plank. And of course there was people from the town then getting a job like holding like this and fella on the stage you see, they weren't regular men, but they were getting a job and so much for doing it yes, just the same. But the the regular men were getting more money than but er And then there used to be men down there, storing the slate, regular men on the outside, my father was one of them. Say if there was eight gangs, there would be eight eight of them there, and eight of them here. Aye. Storing them. Packing them up nice you know and chocking them tight so as they wouldn't shift you see, when the ship was rolling. [speaker001:] When er w each gang, would they negotiate the er the bargain individually or would they be paid Would every gang be paid a f a flat rate. A flat piece rate. [Richard (dick):] The the regular men were er mates sharing together you see. [speaker001:] I see. [Richard (dick):] But the others that was getting a job from the town, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Richard (dick):] were getting the money what it was worth. Sometimes be more or less. used to be about few p er shillings more do you see, er a tonne yes. Aye. [speaker001:] Were erm only certain men allowed or er say were trusted with the job of stowing [Richard (dick):] Oh they were regular men. Oh yes, they were regular men. Yes the others were only hobblers they called them. [speaker001:] Hobblers? [Richard (dick):] Aye you know, holding them on the plank and th passing them to the But the the men that were stowing them, they were regular men on the They knew how to do it see. And they used to pack them up so nice and tight till they were full up inside. And then they didn't shift at all see. No. [speaker001:] When you started on that gang,wh wh wh what did you start as then? Did you start as [Richard (dick):] Oh I started as a boy. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Richard (dick):] Er on the doing small jobs on the quay there like you know, cleaning up and things like that. After a ship. But when I got older, well I was getting the same pay as the regular men then. Piece work you know. But the war come and. And I was six years or something away. Er [speaker001:] Six years? [Richard (dick):] Oh aye all through the war. on August the fourth nineteen fourteen. Fourth I had to go from here. My mother was sitting here on a chair yeah, when I come home from there. Oh Dick, she says to me, she called she called me Dick and I used to tease her. I thought I used to I used to say to her sometimes I'll have to go off story. Dick she used to call me. I thought you named me Richard? Well I have, Dick. she says. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Richard (dick):] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] Every time she said that, I used to tease her then. Aye aye. [LAUGHTER] But I remember once going er to school. Now you go to school, the school there. Well I was no bigger than this like and er go to school straight away Dick. Alright mama, I used to say to her. after been down there. And to I went along that beach in them days you know th and straight to the sea, playing with some wood. Somebody had been her, fetching me to see that I was playing truant, landed in school. Well I could see a woman coming along the beach there, it was high up and down there. Well this woman is coming like the devil if ever she is. tell it was my mother. [LAUGHTER] And she got hold of me [] by the neck like th I told you to go to school didn't I. She says, Look me right. And hammered on the door so one of the teache and it was the class where I was too happened to be by the door there. And she says, Here you are, here he is. And do what you like with him she says. [LAUGHTER] [] And that's where I was aye. I didn't play truant after that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No I'm not surprised. [Richard (dick):] No. Yeah. Aye aye. [speaker001:] The you said, that you were away for six years. [Richard (dick):] Er in the war? [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Oh yes yes. [speaker001:] Did any of them the lads that you the men that you went away with. Did they come back? [Richard (dick):] Not all. [speaker001:] Not all of them? [Richard (dick):] Oh no. [speaker001:] Were any of them. [Richard (dick):] there's a couple of my best friends [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] er Well the one that best was, he used to he was older than me but and er I was very sorry. I went I said gas shell drop close to me and that that gave me a bit of a right to go an d to the hospital. Well I didn't quite to the hospital. I went to Oh that's eleven o'clock that is. Ah. It's a bit fast I think. Isn't it? [speaker001:] I think it is yes. [Richard (dick):] Yes about five minutes fast. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] . Aye er the when I was I got better and I got down to and there was a fella come to look and see me. Well she says, Gentleman wants to see you. She says, and I said, No. So he come then and he told me that that best friend of mine was killed. He lived down the road there. [speaker001:] Did did you find it d er difficult t t to believe when you were told? [Richard (dick):] Well I could see him all the time see. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] You know in in the hospital I could s see him in my face all the time. Yeah. And it was. That's a long time ago isn't it. [speaker001:] Yes it is. [Richard (dick):] Aye. [speaker001:] R it is. [Richard (dick):] Nineteen eighteen was it when they finished I think, yes. [speaker001:] Mm [Richard (dick):] Nineteen fourteen, fourth of August we went from here. [speaker001:] When you went e when you went away, what did you think you were going into then? Because you were only a young lad weren't you. [Richard (dick):] Yeah. Well er I didn't we didn't know. Er to tell you the truth. We used to laugh and everything together, going from Bangor here. And going to England one place we didn't enough do you see, so we were going Then we went to Northampton and different places like that, shifting about for a while. To get enough Yeah. [speaker001:] So you were [Richard (dick):] Cos there was different er things do you see, infantry, Royal Welsh and things like that, they were going the same as us. Looking for men, aye to go. Ah. Till there was no c no man er after eighteen round here then er in them days you know. No. And we never used to we were about three times home in that er five years time. And many didn't come no. Oh. [speaker001:] What was it like [Richard (dick):] I wo what you didn't like to pass anybody [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] m er mother of one of them that was killed you see. [speaker001:] No? [Richard (dick):] No I cou You'd go round the other street wouldn't you. Ah. [speaker001:] Wh wh wh why was that? [Richard (dick):] Oh you didn't like to see them, they'd only come and cry to you. Aye. [speaker001:] W was it also because there were so many of them. [Richard (dick):] Oh there were many of them killed you see. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Thousands wasn't it. the country all well hundreds and hundreds from here. Yeah. [speaker001:] From? [Richard (dick):] Yes well from as many boys that had seen the age, they had to go. like them do you see, the this side, them people they were volunteers, proper volunteers do you see, they were. But they after they had finished, they the South African war and things was before then wasn't it. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Well I remember the South African war too. Cos I had an uncle there. And my grandmother used to live on the beach there. In a house facing there and her son was one of then Caernarfon er what do you call them er militia like and they had to go talking with me and a little One of the first little motor cars like this. Not an open thing you know, little bus like aye. And he was er from it was Jack I remember him well, an old man. Driving this, he used to go on the by the by the clock you know in them days, the first motor. Aye. And he come there, and who was it come home from Africa, but my uncle, my mother's son Hello David, you've come home Davey, she says, you've come home. Yes, he says. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] From South Africa? [Richard (dick):] Aye. South Africa war he was. Well I remember the South African war. Aye. [break in recording] this and that then the old women used to go to the door, shilling. And look this grate here's the same thing now as it was in nineteen O eight and I make a fire in it everyday but I haven't made it today. I I was nearly doing it too. Yeah [speaker001:] This is the original [Richard (dick):] look at it. Nineteen O eight put the match in there and have the coal and the wood is in there ready. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Richard (dick):] it is. But in them days do you see, we had er a kettle here and a kettle there but we don't bother with now. I've got a gas stove in the back there. [speaker001:] Would this get hot here? [Richard (dick):] Yea oh yes the kettle'd be there. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] And another one here. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Hot my mother used to call it she was English, she was er Cockney born but she come to Bangor when she was eight years ten years of age. Working in the with some people from er she was adopted because she w lost her mother and father. So these women were coming Well they were man and wife aye from London Tottenham Court she lived. She was born. And brought her to... with them see and then she stayed here she never went out of here then. Oh and they were working in the there where that job centre is now it was a big pub. You know. [speaker001:] Was it? [Richard (dick):] That's where the women come see. F the people come from London to that. Ah it was a big pub. I forget it's na the name of it. got it somewhere in this house but I've told some chap, [LAUGHTER] a bit of a Welsh there er I said, Now but it was Welsh there. [LAUGHTER].. [speaker001:] I don't speak Welsh. [Richard (dick):] No no that's. That's what we say. We still say that that's what the Frenchmen used to say it in French aye. Pas beaucoup er n non compris I don't understand. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] But say that still. Aye aye can't help it now. Stuck in you somehow. [LAUGHTER] Oh aye yeah. [speaker001:] What was it er when your mother erm sort of lived here,di di did she learn to speak your Welsh? [Richard (dick):] No she didn't er bother. [speaker001:] No? [Richard (dick):] No. No she didn't bother. Er but there was er She come here with them people and the they kept that big and they forget and after they had died and they she went across the road to the the this here now. A here now. And they want to put that out they do. Aye [LAUGHTER] er this there. But then she got married and we lived down the road there for a while till they repaired these, they made these There was very old houses these are. This site here barring them two in the top there. The two on this side, they started to build them there see, renew them. But the wa war broke out and they just made these up. But this is the largest of them this house. [speaker001:] Is it? [Richard (dick):] Yes. Didn't you see the kitchen eh? [speaker001:] I I was very surprised when I came in, it's enormous isn't it? [Richard (dick):] Yes. There's you can put four double beds in the front room. There is for this er my sister here, she was after my mother died and everything like that. But she was there and you know, she wants something here and wants it there too. Do as you like, I says, I didn't bother myself aye. [LAUGHTER] And then she was buying furniture and things like that is here too somewhere. Aye and the younger she was.... Aye there she is. Perha perhaps you'd know her. And here she is older there, look, in the town.... [speaker001:] Oh. [Richard (dick):] Aye. And... [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] She's younger still here.... I had three sisters you know. But the two the one the eldest is dead and the youngest see. But I've got one living in Colwyn Bay. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. Ho how old is she? [Richard (dick):] She's about three years younger than I. [speaker001:] Gosh. [Richard (dick):] Yeah. And the children are alive too.... [speaker001:] Mm.... Thank you. [Richard (dick):] Er there's only er old people from here would know them see. And she used to do all the messages like that after my mother died see. Ah. [speaker001:] How er h when did your m m m mother die then? Ho [Richard (dick):] Oh I've no idea. Af after the First World War. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] she was eighty. Forget that, eighty she was. Course she'd been working hard well er not working hard you know just in the cleaning like that. Course all young w women used to go and skivvy as they called them didn't they. Used to go ski er cleaning and that's where they used to work, but now they go to shops don't they. Aye. There was seven shops in this little place here. There's none here now. Only that now that's what they sell things there th they've started there. On the beach there, there's a shop there now. But there were seven in all these streets here and we never used they never used to go to town. We never used to go Here we used to be and on the beach there. [speaker001:] What did they sell, these er shops? [Richard (dick):] Oh er everything you know, meat and there was one shop down the bottom of the street here, my mother come here one morning, she used to get meat there. And er oh she says to m She couldn't didn't speak Welsh but she told what the old man told her in that shop there. He says there's er that I e I haven't got a chicken for you today, a kitchen for you today. Instead of saying chicken, he says, I haven't got a kitchen for you. Aye. And that old man I'm telling you the God's truth, I watched him when I was coming school many a time, used to go to Anglesey with a rope in his pocket here. And buy a sheep and come home with it and that [LAUGHTER] over the bridge [] with it, all along and along er that road there and th and when we used to come from that school in, he used to be coming with a sheep on the string like this and the poor thing, I used to look at the old sheep and he often used to be tired you see. And he'd go like this with his knee you know, that's how she was [LAUGHTER] shifted []. To here. And he ki he was killing them in the back yard there. Yes. But he was a proper butcher. He was cutting it proper shapes you know like they are today. But he was a proper But it was in his back yard, he was killing it and hanging it up in the window there. In the bottom of the street there. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Richard (dick):] the old houses them aye. Yeah. Er that I remember come in laughing saying that he had no kitchen for him for her. [LAUGHTER]. I laughed We used to have a laugh about that very often. Aye. It was. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Apart from the b b butcher's shop. Er wh wh wh what other shops were there? [Richard (dick):] Oh they was er selling everything, potatoes and er carrots and things like that you know. About seven of them, but they were in different places. But there was one shop up the road there, er it was n the Welsh names they were or most you see. And there'd been like a half door going to the shop like there you know. But behind that t the bottom half I still remember it though, and when we opened that [LAUGHTER] []. And then the old man might be in the back yard somewhere and he could here that the bell going. It was a big as this. [speaker001:] . [Richard (dick):] Ah. [speaker001:] What almost a foot? [Richard (dick):] Yes. A big bell like that. [speaker001:] Good heavens. [Richard (dick):] Aye. [speaker001:] Enough to make anyone jump isn't it? [Richard (dick):] Oh yeah. [LAUGHTER]. Well he was selling swedes, everything, potatoes, carrots and things like that. I my day tell you, I don't thing there was many shops with a tin in the sh in the window. They were all in But the tinned stuff, everywhere now isn't it. But it wasn't then. No. [LAUGHTER]. All in er at the counter or in er boxes or in casks like this. Everything like that then. But now er in tins. And people were saying in them days, won't live long now. Will tins. [LAUGHTER] So the old people are saying, and we were wondering as children like yes, Why [] Oh it's all tinned stuff now. Aye it's no good. cos they used to have and a big handled my mother had sa saucepan and as big as this. Like that. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] And a big handle sticking up here. Full of scouse. [speaker001:] Ah scouse. [Richard (dick):] Scouse. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Richard (dick):] Everything in it you know. Ah lovely stuff eh? You don't get them today like that. I makes them myself in the back yard there I do it. [speaker001:] Do you? [Richard (dick):] Aye. [speaker001:] How? Sorry. [Richard (dick):] Meat, potatoes well er mostly t s turnips you know. we er swede they call the other isn't it? Carrots and meat and good stuff, and then they used to put a little flour to thicken it like this do you see, with a big spoon like that. and pulled this out like that. Well they say it'll come out like that see. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] Everybody w looking but when my father and all was there, there was nine then so there was more so we had to go in th in that big room there and eat off the table there then. Cos [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] All of you? [Richard (dick):] Yes. Aye. Aye. oh my mother was a strong woman, yes and good cook too. But she'd learnt a job in That's what she was doing you see, in the. [speaker001:] W she she came from erm [Richard (dick):] She come from London, here a young girl. She'd lost her parents. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Richard (dick):] And er her father and mother... died, but she lived till she was eighty. And she come here with these people from London, she had a good place with them, plenty of good food and everything. In that there, where that job centre is now. And then across the road she went afterwards, to that there, She had a lovely time there. Cos working men didn't go in there,th in them days you know, into that small. All er p er people in big high jobs. Aye. [speaker001:] Right. [Richard (dick):] But now, every Dick, Tom and Harry goes in that little there now. [speaker001:] Yes. [Richard (dick):] Well they didn't in them days. They didn't hardly go when I was going. I was started to go there. [LAUGHTER]. Yeah. Only I went away to work then aye and er... wasn't coming home very often. [speaker001:] W What w what did your mother think of here? Having sort of c c come into an area which was Welsh speaking? [Richard (dick):] Well she come with the people, English from London and then with them in that there. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] That's where she was. [speaker001:] Mm. It must have been a bit of a shock to her. [Richard (dick):] She she was young. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] Ten years of age she was. [speaker001:] Only ten? [Richard (dick):] Ten yes. But she never spoke Welsh. But I think she understood us and acquired talking to ourselves in Welsh you know. Yeah. Oh yes, she [LAUGHTER] she knew what [] cos we could see it by her face. [LAUGHTER]. Aye. [LAUGHTER] Aye. [LAUGHTER] And I remember her father coming here from. Young... and he married some g young girl from here you know. Aye. [speaker001:] You remember that do you? [Richard (dick):] Yeah. Oh yeah. [speaker001:] When you came can I just sort of take you back again? When you came back [Richard (dick):] Aye you ask me what what you want to know. And then I Well it's no use me telling me because they're no good to you are they them? [speaker001:] No I don't No that that puts flesh on the bones. [Richard (dick):] Oh aye yeah yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] When you came back from away after the war,d did you notice any any changes here? [Richard (dick):] Yes er the missing of the old friends you know, to start with yes. [speaker001:] Mm. [Richard (dick):] Er and hardly nothing to do here. But er I was going back to my own job you see, and then I went to see if the And then I I don't know what happened. There was something er Oh well I went away again somewhere. and then I went on the railway. A little The reason why I went there, my brother was living two or three here. And he said says to me, I can get you a job on the rai railway, he says to me. You see so I went went there and that's how I got there. Well I'd been on the Menai Suspension Bridge before. Aye they were repairing it then. We had to go up heights then didn't we. Aye. [speaker001:] What did you used to do on the on the bridge then? [Richard (dick):] Oh well I say there was fitters, I used to h er be handy with them. And lifting the heavy things and things, yeah. Oh it was heavy but I was used to heavy stuff on. Cos er when you're loading a ship you're you're handling yourself about twenty tonnes before dinner. With your hands like this. Loading the barrow with twenty tonnes. And and wheeling it so far like that. And then the other fella will take it to the plank. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Richard (dick):] To put them down. And he'd have to put that I remember one man that was counting like this, he used to count them by the three you know. There was two or three men that did like. Of course they knew and they had a pin in o in their hand to stick every hundred like that see. Counting three like that. Thousands was in no time, they'd count tonnes. And I put one morning,s seven tonnes before dinner in. Aye. [speaker001:] Who was responsible for for calculating the number of slates then? [Richard (dick):] Oh there was a they had er er th er counters they called them. But we called them in Welsh do you see. They say there was oh half a dozen counters there you know. But there was one man m in er in you see them little red huts that's on? He was there. He he knew how much every ship carried you see, and how much slate they wanted to get rid of there. Aberdeen, different slates going there. They were thicker and smaller you see. Because the weather was bad there wasn't it. [speaker001:] I see. [Richard (dick):] But in Ireland, Dublin and Belfast, the lovely best slates you know, used to go there, to Ireland. Best slates. Ah b a Scotland there was different place altogether for slate. Aye. And they used to count it like that and every hundred they stick a pin in see. And they had a slate in their hand, square slate like this. And they used to mark the hundred and then go there again, take the other pin out and go like that you see. Counting them all the time like that. Yes they counted thousands of them. Well they they knew how to do it didn't they? They were used to it. They had a say there was two or three counters, this man in that part had made the cargo already before they started see. one man er that had so many hundred apiece or so many coun sizes say, different sizes. And then they used to go with their slate and and they knew it altogether and then the counter turns and turns like that. And they don't do it now. They made the rope. how the ships finished here. They belonged to they were ships you know, but they had one sailing ship, the herself, They made a road into quarry you see. And instead of a ship going from here to Aberdeen, she might be a fortnight going there, with bad weather. Going to different places, windbound we used to go. Because we boys used to like the windbound lying and talking and in the galley and smelling of the coming from the galley, all the saucepans and things like that. You know. [LAUGHTER] Aye. Aye well you see it we used to it doesn't matter how she jumped and rolled, we were eating just the same. But if a young fella started you know, he couldn't d eat you know for a while long time. He got sick do you see, and lie down. Yeah. And we used to say, you're alright, come one. we've been the same before when we started. [LAUGHTER]. Aye. Yes aye. [speaker001:] How long did it take for your stomach to settle down then? [Richard (dick):] Oh a good while. [speaker001:] Yes? [Richard (dick):] Yeah. You were afraid to see her shifting. [LAUGHTER]. Oh yeah all the time. We used to tell Well the old men used to tell us, You'd be alright used to it. But we used to tell these young when they c Erm young ones come when we were going all. Aye. I remember one fella she was rolling and I was in the galley. And with a frying pan full of some stuff there, very nice though. [LAUGHTER] And he come there and luckily he went on top of the table to lie down. He had to and sick, he was vomiting see. Well we used to get a bucket and throw it over the v over like that. And the old men used to do it before us aye. You'd go you wouldn't feel it at all, you'd be in your glory there after after about a month. I used to be All the lads the same age as me there. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. And then down here was all s sailing ship there. Well do you see the photos of them on that has she. I hope s [speaker001:] She has yes. [Richard (dick):] I hope she's bringing them back aye. Well she will up there. [LAUGHTER]. Aye. They're not new houses there, they're not very old are they? [speaker001:] Not relatively speaking, no. [Richard (dick):] No. Oh th these are old but these are er second repair these are these two. Th told you them two in the top started new but the war broke out see and er then they this up. This was a terrible place in them days aye. All kinds of More people living here very old you know then. [speaker001:] Yes? [Richard (dick):] Yes. Yeah there were. Of course I remember them eighties and nineties here. And they used to work. Well they had nothing after like. There was no dole or nothing like this they had. There were only workhouses and like that for some of them. [speaker001:] How did the old ones [Richard (dick):] Eh? [speaker001:] How did they old ones survive then? [Richard (dick):] Well God knows to tell you the truth there. They were er well they were different to us, they weren't going nowhere from here and er they had no best clothes only same clothes mostly for days and Sundays isn't it, same. Er there were some like look here Tell you what's made the difference. I remember well, ten pubs in here, round this quarter. Ten. [speaker001:] Good heavens. [Richard (dick):] And there's only two here now see. there in and er where's the other? On the beach there, the. [speaker001:] Oh yes. [Richard (dick):] And th that's bigger now. That's that used to be the part there that's gone big there, was sailors. was given it I think, all the sailors used to old sailors after they gone too old, was going in there all the day and a big fire there. Well I've been myself. Going there, big fire used to smoke pipes like that, in there. There used to be used to shunt them out didn't they. And the lads were glad to go there. Well I wasn't married but I used to go in there and I used to come home er say in Winter if I come home for a w week or two, I go in there, and sit by the fire and have a yard. And they tell us which boat old men been and what th See that's how we learned didn't we. [speaker001:] I see. [Richard (dick):] Yeah. [speaker001:] W what happened when things began to to go down as regards the ships then? [Richard (dick):] Oh everybody was going poor wasn't they. Some well I myself I was lucky I had a job with my brother in law, he was working there on the railway and he knew them well. But er well he he was from that part of the town, Westend, that way you know. You know Westend do you? [speaker001:] I do yes. [Richard (dick):] He was from th that way do you see. But he got married my sister and lived in house down there and er that's how I got a job there. He went and p pushed me in somehow or other you know. And I went then and I and cos the b he to asked this man see, the foreman like there, and then er he gave me a job. Well he er he asked where I'd been working and what could I do and and I was young then aye. And I'm old now, but I feel champion though. er be ninety four er next September. If I'm alive that is? Oh ninety three I am, aren't I now? I'm ninety three now and I go in this back yard do something every time. I've got a big back yard here. I'm cutting grass there now but it's cold today I cut that with a big scissor like this. Aye. Yeah. Oh I'll go there and finish that perhaps this afternoon or tomorrow, anytime there's no-one's to go there only me now isn't it. And coal fire I make. I was going to light it I I've been lighting it until er the beginning of the week I think. So I haven't lit it now. It's ready to put a match into but if it gets a bit colder now today night I'll put a match in there see. [speaker001:] I think you might need [Richard (dick):] And it'll b Eh? [speaker001:] I think you might n n need it cos it's a bit chilly today. [Richard (dick):] Yes I feel a bit now. the back door's there see. [LAUGHTER] wind is coming from the North here. We get a lot of wind here, we had a lot here the other night.. What night was it, Monday night [speaker001:] Yes it was. [Richard (dick):] I reckon wasn't it. Everywhere was going yes. [speaker001:] Well I had to replace a s er two slates on on my roof. [Richard (dick):] Oh you replace it where you all living? [speaker001:] . [Richard (dick):] Oh w I've heard of the name but I don't know where it is either. [speaker001:] It's near. [Richard (dick):] Oh aye [LAUGHTER] Well I've never been that way see. No. Yes er [speaker001:] Well thank you very m much Mr. [Richard (dick):] Oh yes, if I can say anything sometime. [speaker001:] Would you like to hear some of it? [Richard (dick):] No. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Could I have your name please? [Harry:] , Harry. [speaker001:] How old are you Mr? [Harry:] Ninety two. [speaker001:] Where were you born Mr? [Harry:] Yorkshire, Morley, Yorkshire. [speaker001:] When did you come to live in North Wales? [Harry:] Erm September nineteen eighteen. [speaker001:] ... Where did you work in Llandudno? [Harry:] The er for the electricity the the council electricity supplier. [speaker001:] And where was that station? [Harry:] That's down in erm er I don't... it's where the gasworks is and that's on erm... I don't remember the road, the other end of the town.... The gas the the gasworks and the electricity were both together. [speaker001:] I see.... Was this th during the early days of electricity in the in the area? [Harry:] Well the electricity er er was originally er in nineteen hundred. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] There when the er first electricity station was built. it was in er going order when er I came. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] There were it came under the North Wales... electricity supply. [speaker001:] Yes I see. [Harry:] And that supplied the coast [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] more or less. With the hydroelectric stations. [speaker001:] I see.... How many people would be working there with you at the time roughly? Would you remember? [Harry:] In the electricity works? [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] Oh... with the distribution there'd be some like some like over twenty or twenty five, twenty twenty five. [speaker001:] What was the nature [Harry:] Mr er er er Mr er and Mist er... er... his assistant was.... And then there were these shift engineers and myself... er and the boiler room staff. [speaker001:] What was the nature of your work? What sort of things did you do? [Harry:] erm maintenance on the engine room and boiler room. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] On the plant. [speaker001:] Where did you live in Llandudno at the time? [Harry:] Er in erm here in Road.... And then er... no I beg your pardon that's wrong. I'd been away after that before I came to the electricity works here.... I was working in Burnley putting in a big textile plant in. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] And from there er in I came back here in nineteen thirty eight.... And should've gone... abroad but I wouldn't go I er I er I had this position offered in the electricity works here then [speaker001:] Aye. [Harry:] Nineteen thirty eight... and I s I was here about s ten years er the nationalization was in nineteen forty seven.... And I er I went then when the na it was a nationalized... this station was closed down and I went to Dolgarrog power station. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] And I was there till nineteen sixty... when I retired. [speaker001:] I see.... Did you have to travel from your home here in Llandudno to Dolgarrog to your work or did you? [Harry:] Oh yes I went on the bus. Er travelled on the bus. [speaker001:] Did you? [Harry:] I got many a lift you know with... someone that were there. [speaker001:] How many hours a week [Harry:] But I st I stayed in Dolgarrog the first two years. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] To be near hand because I was on maintenance on call you see as maintenance. [speaker001:] I see ye... How was the electricity generated in the... Llandudno power station? [Harry:] Well er there were erm reciprocating engines and generators on a positive shaft right through.... But then you see... the town was on er on er on D C. And they'd be at that time they they were beginning to change over to A C, the whole country's A C now. And to get onto the grid... supplied by the hydroelectric stations. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] And so they put three sets of converters in. That was to convert from... from D C to A C.... to bring it er from A C to D C to bring er bring it into what the town was er being constructed for. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] That was until the grid got into proper operation and the then they got nationalized then they they transferred back onto A C.... It was to bring it into line to s to keep the town supplied through all the er cables that were were being constructed for D C. They had to bring the A C back to D C.... That was converters. Now there were three sets in the electricity works here and two in the substation down the town hall.... And the converters is that th the er... commutators on the converters got in a bad state and er the engin the er Mr asked me what could you do with them.... Turn them Mr, Never heard of it. I said I have. I says and we'll do it. Oh yes he says you you get on with it. So I did. [speaker001:] Was it [Harry:] I [speaker001:] dangerous work? [Harry:] No, no [speaker001:] No? [Harry:] Oh no I we couldn't.... I designed and made the drawings for some jigs and we made them... I'd two or three men with me and they made these jigs and them underneath the sets.... And then... took er took the k took the tr the erm... took the the saddle off and the lathe and and fitted it on top and then got special tools from Clarence Dock at Liverpool power station... that I asked for, tools. And they turned these... they got grooves in... where the brushes fit. Now they should be be perfectly plain, straight and we got a t I got a true cut on eighteen inches with a a Mr was so... so he made a special report on erm what I'd done. And I did the three sets in the er electricity works and the two in the substation. And they were a complete success. [speaker001:] So how long were you working in the Llandudno power station? [Harry:] Twelve years. [speaker001:] And where did you go from here? [Harry:] Dolgarrog. [speaker001:] What... powered the generators in the Dolgarrog... power station? [Harry:] Oh tha er that's er that's erm hydro... water. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] Oh yes that's... that's er more or less... well it's the nearest approach to pe to... to er... what do they call it?... Oh perpetual motion.... It's continuous... the water. Now that water comes through... it starts er er from er... on two machines. High high high pressure... and it travels thre three miles... is three miles long and a mile wide and they've never touched bottom. It's fed by underground springs.... And when the heavy rain's heavy er it rises you see, well you've got to put more power, switch more power on to the machines down below in the station. We've got three sets, we've got four now... there was another put in wh that one when I when I was I. That that one we put that in when I was there. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] That... a Francis turbine and erm... er the er generator... that's a positive. The water hits it you see well it isn't like steam. I've been in steam stations as well as steam turbines a long time since but with steam you can use it over again. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] G passes through condensers.... er and that er... and then through the er through the coolers and it its got back into the boilers at the proper temperature. But with water... once it's hit the f wheel... on the turbine, it's finished. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] But it takes it er at at er with a pressure of five hundred pounds a square inch. [speaker001:] As much as that? [Harry:] Yeah... but you can't get speed on... on water turbines that you can on er steam. Now steam there's steam turbine er the the revolutions are are three thousand to the minute. Now on water you can't get them only on eight hundred about eight hundred and ninety. Or eight hundred or n eight or nine hundred. [speaker001:] How was the water conveyed down? [Harry:] Through the pipes. [speaker001:] I see. How many pipes? [Harry:] Nine. They're nine foot diameter. [speaker001:] Are they as much as that? [Harry:] Er coming from Dolgarrog from when they start [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] and then there's big... mesh... wire meshes... to stop any foreign matter coming through.... They start at nine foot diameter. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] And by the time the then the er diameter's reduced all the way in three miles and the the the drop is the drop is twelve hundred foot.... That's... down the mountain side. The last drop.... And when it hits the turbines it's the diameter's ten inch.... So you can imagine what's coming er pressure's coming. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] All that weight of water's coming through all the time. [speaker001:] What was the [Harry:] And then it goes it it runs away into the the the through the er... bypass into the Con er er River Conway. [speaker001:] Now you said the pipes were nine feet in diameter? [Harry:] Yes. [speaker001:] What's... were they made of metal? Metal pipes? [Harry:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] How [Harry:] Hi high tensile steel. [speaker001:] High tensile steel. [Harry:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] How thick was the steel? [Harry:] Th er... inch inch and th inch and three quarters.... Would be... Well you can see them pipes.... and the then there's flanged... they're every... six er every er twenty two feet I think it is.... And then the flang the flanges.... The flanges are two and half inch and then they're bolted together er corresponding er fluctuating bolts one after the other. All the way round and those bolts are eight... eighty, eight by one and half and two inch. [speaker001:] Were these pipes examined... by anybody? [Harry:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] Periodically or daily? [Harry:] Oh ye yes th th erm...... er th er the hydro-electrical engineers... London. They're the consultants for the hydro stations.... But you know wh what they're getting now. Er it it's easi er Ffestiniog. All that water that goes th that goes down through the machines is all sent back to top... [speaker001:] Recirculated? [Harry:] Er oh yes er the er it's it's a permanent shaft right through.... I can show you it.... It's a positive shaft right through. [paper rustling]... And it er [paper rustling]... and the pumps... the pumps at the bottom... are one hundred thousand horsepower. [speaker001:] Really? [Harry:] That sends the water back to the top.... [paper rustling] This is what it looks like.... [paper rustling] That's the pump storage. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] There's the there's the turbine... here... and there's the generator and here's the pumps. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] That sends it back t back to the top. [speaker001:] Th that's the dynamo there on the shaft isn't it? [Harry:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] Yes. [speaker001:] I see.... That's very interesting. [Harry:] They take er they take a bit of explain If you'd like to take that to look at you can do. [speaker001:] Thank you very much. I'll bring it back I'll keep it [Harry:] Er [speaker001:] safely for you. [Harry:] there's no hurry no hurry. [speaker001:] Thanks very much indeed.... It's very interesting. [Harry:] Well in fact you could keep it if you want. [speaker001:] No I er [Harry:] I can get another. [speaker001:] No I'll bring it back for you. [Harry:] I can get another if you er [speaker001:] No it's [Harry:] . But er it... [LAUGHTER] it'd take a bit of time to er if er I explained it all to you. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] How it's er how it's operated. You see the the inlet pipes and the outlets... and this you can't see a thing of this, you ought to go and have a look at this place sometime. [speaker001:] I'd like to very much. I'd like to.... Did these pipes ever break? [Harry:] Mm? [speaker001:] [cough] these these conduit pipes... did they ever break at all? [Harry:] No. No. [speaker001:] Was there no accident at all with them? [Harry:] too solid... constructions. This this is the main this is the er the station that wa was only opened in nineteen sixty seven. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] You can take that if you want.... er er [speaker001:] Oh thank you very much. [Harry:] Now er in the in the... [paper rustling] An engineer if you've any engineer friend engineering friends I could explain it all to you but it takes time. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] If if you've if you've got they'd be able to explain that to you. Because it's all... it's all set out. [speaker001:] Er I take the the er dynamo itself in the powerhouse was erm [Harry:] Well they aren't dynamo er a dynam a dynamo's obsolete. [speaker001:] Mm. [Harry:] They're er generators. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] Generates the current. [speaker001:] How how was the [Harry:] It's like like this you see. Er er er it's it's one magnet working a against another. [speaker001:] I see. Is there a coil of wire round it? [Harry:] Er oh yes the lot. You see the out the er the rotor... and then there's the stator outside, it's massive coil millions of mi thousands of miles of wire. And then there's a gap between you see.... The higher the the voltage the closer that gap is.... You can't adjust it, it's way it's originally designed and made.... And that produces the electrici the er electrical you can't see it of course but we know that, everybody knows. You can't see it but that's where it's generated in between the in between those two.... That's... now it's it's it's working... the is working against... the power.... You see... [paper rustling] you see that's the generator... and these are the these are the coils, that's the rotor that goes round. [speaker001:] I see. [Harry:] And the electricity's generated in the centre. This is all the apparatus that goes up to drive it.... And then there's governors and all that sort of thing to regulate it, to keep it exact.... To keep it in its place so all the engineers knows what they're doing. [paper rustling]... Anyway if if you've any engin engineering friends they'd be able to explain that to you. I can do it but it'd take [speaker001:] Thanks very much [Harry:] a long time it'd take a long time.... Ooh aye... er it's it's er highly technical... and I [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] I mean I I it's a long time since I left it. [speaker001:] There would be somebody on duty twenty four hours a day? [Harry:] Oh yes. Continuous, they never stopped.... It's a public what they call er Mr here used to say. It's a public service that must be kept going. They worked all night sometimes on breakdowns you know.... They're inside boilers and the coal passing through you know.... But now in these big new super-stations like Drax in North Yorkshire, one of the biggest stations er in Europe, coal-fired and Ferrybridge... in Cheshire.... You see the coal now is pulverized. The it comes straight from the coa from the er mines and it's it's sent through chutes on these... merry-go-round railways that go slow and they stop over this and then it's all pulverized with heavy steel balls into powder and coal and into the furnaces it's just blown in.... At a terrific pressure. And that's the furnace that creates the steam and the steam goes then to the turbines and a matter of half a million er... Drax... Drax power station and Ferrybridge... their units are s s s half a million horsepower... half a million or six hundred five hundred million horsepower. [speaker001:] Tremendous. [Harry:] I used to have a little stick.... cherry wood.... Oh I did all my all my working days I us I used to keep it keep it in my pocket you know. And er I could yes I could hear well then.... I could put it in it were only about ten inches long and I I made it and tapered it erm on a lathe, I put it my ear and side of casing and I could hear all what were going on inside. If there were a fault I could detect it. [speaker001:] Is that right? [Harry:] Aye.... They've got instruments for doing it now but I used to stick to my bit of stick. They used to say, That bugger's coming here with his bit of stick. He knows more about it than what we know with these instruments. [LAUGHTER] how they used to talk. [speaker001:] It was a primitive form of of stethoscope? [Harry:] was this thing going then [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Harry:] when I said that?... I'm sorry er wh what were you say? [speaker001:] It was a primitive form of stethoscope?... Like a doctor's stethoscope [Harry:] Yes yes. Or er I used to use them too. [speaker001:] Did you? [Harry:] Stethoscopes, yes. [speaker001:] Did you really? [Harry:] Oh yes. But I used to th I er used to stick to my bit of stick.... I got better results than what they did with their with their fancy gadgets. [speaker001:] What else can you tell me about er the generation of electricity in Dolgarrog? [Harry:] Ooh I could tell you a lot.... Oh... I could keep you going all day.... There's some things that used to happen.... Aye going going flat out you know they're... er heavy rains... the machines are going flat out er at the s one night I I sat I sat er all night and ne nearly part of next day at side of one of governors, to make sure it didn't... shift... no more than a about a sixteenth of an inch.... Er if it had gone over would have thrown the whole lot out of er out of gear.... They're that sensitive you know. [speaker001:] Are they? [Harry:] Oh they are, very sensitive is er is those machines. They are.... Er [speaker001:] Apart from your normal work... what did you do in your leisure er leisure time? [Harry:] Oh I'd a little workshop and used to make stuff. [speaker001:] What sort of things? [Harry:] Oh er I'd made one or two little machines and and machine tools and stuff like that. There's one on t on on the board er in the er engine room at Dolg at Dolgarrog in the machine room that I made.... And I I last time I were there I went there for erm... well... to put it... fairly straight... I went to consult... on something that'd been done.... Ooh it was all that that do in these... commu commutators that. And I made them jigs and whatnot.... when they come to do it at Dolgarrog... when they come to want them doing I said to the... to the... the chief engineer I said, he told me about they were going get these commutators done here machine. They're massive machines you know....... Oh he says... oh I says, Well what do you do? Oh stones... made by Martindales. Now that's er that's er er a carborundum stone... and it goes... it fits on a jig at side of machine. Now there's the machine is g there... the laminated copper... er these commutators and it's on main shaft... that goes right through the generator and the turbine. And they've got to be kept true. Now you'll never get a true surface with a commutator stone.... With a com stone. Because it er er the machine was grinding the stone away the stone wasn't grinding the bra the cop the copper. I stuck to that theory all the way through.... Oh yes it does. Oh no it doesn't, I says... but you do your ow er have it your own way. But it made awful mess. And I told them about this job I'd done here.... Oh he pooh-poohed it.... I says, Well... alright that mi er very very nice chap to deal with and oh I I got on alright with him but he wouldn't have this. So... oh after I retired... some years, we have a dinner every year you see it'll be it'll be coming off in December. And it's er er we go to Ffestiniog power station to have a drink and then come to er... er well we've been at Royal Hotel at Betsy-Coed these last years or two. But anyway apart from that... I said to Mr, he's the head over all the hydroelectric stations over this erm I said Mr li... these commutators... I told him doing the. Oh, he says, I never heard of anything like that. He says, Next time we have them to do at Dolgarrog we'll... send for you.... And the maintenance engineer at Ffestiniog, Mr, I know him very well, he came here... er like you did downstairs, come to see me one evening.... Oh aye he says er... you come up to Dolgarrog tomorrow?... I said, Bit short notice isn't it? Well he says... want you to come and see this... idea that we er how we do these commutators. I says what do you them with? Oh he says we a jig and er... a diamond tool. that's that's no good. I says, That isn't same as what I said. We turn it er turn them I said with a er cutting tool.... Well, he says... he says, We're we're doing it with a with a... with a er a diamond tool.... I I went... to Dolgarrog... came for me with a car and Mr couldn't be there.... But he asked me if I'd send them er er a full report of it after day after they'd done it.... I wasn't doing it. I went to see er how they were doing it you see.... Oh. Er... says er it would that diamond tool were only sending dust... copper dust.... It should have been a a... a sk erm a copper coming off with turning tool.... And I asked the man in the engineering. I said, What speed are you going on? Oh, he says, a hundred. A hundred, I says, no wonder the er it it you've made a mess on it I said. You have made a mess on it, don't mind me saying so but you have. I said I've come all way from Llandudno to see what you're doing. And after write a report.... Hundred I says d I says do you know how mu what speed I were running when I did them? At two thousand eight hundred.... You want high speed... and a er low cut for copper.... Fine cut. Don't want to get get a lot off you can't... but you want the speed the high speed for laminated copper.... You know th that's the end of th.... I said that... I said, A hundred and you're only running at a hundred.... Oh well alright... and I told Mr about it. I wrote a report out for them. I says you're all er very er... I says, Your method my method it's far and away in er er better than what your's is.... And another thing I asked this engineer that were in charge of job. When did you start this? He said yesterday afternoon.... I said, And you're only a quarter way across?... When will you finish? Oh, he said, We should finish tomorrow morning.... That was fourteen hours. They wouldn't count in running at night. They weren't running at night. Not tha not the job like that. There got to be somebody there.... Fourteen hours I said. D do you know how how long it took me to do them? I said, Four hours.... And another thing what what our commutators were eighteen inches.... Yours is only nine at Dolgarrog.... He got a fright.... And they got a fright when they got my report and all. [speaker001:] What were the wages like? [Harry:] Mm? [speaker001:] What were the wages like? [Harry:] Oh they were erm... er nothing like they are today you know of course. But er on standard er engineering standards they were alright.... I think I'd... er when I retired I think mine was somewhere about round about twenty pound. That were in nineteen sixty. [speaker001:] Twenty pound a week was it? [Harry:] Yes.... Today er on that job they'd be be getting about three hundred. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] Previously that were the average average wage for er a skilled man. [speaker001:] When you first started with the electricity board in Llandudno [Harry:] Oh er [speaker001:] what were the wages then? [Harry:] Three pound.... That were in nineteen thirty eight. [speaker001:] Was that a good wage then? [Harry:] It was then.... Yes. Yes it was a good wage then in nineteen thirty eight. [speaker001:] Was there a lot of unem [Harry:] Three or four pound. [speaker001:] Was there a lot of unemployment in the area... in nineteen thirty eight? [Harry:] Er er not a great lot.... erm... nineteen thirties there was.... Course I were away then working, I were putting the bi the big plant in in Burnley.... And then... wages then for a labourer that er... er assistants and stuff like that we only come to about two pound.... And when I put that plant in... I wanted some... I wanted some... well more or less labourers to work wi work with the fitters.... I wanted six.... There were about six hundred turned up. [speaker001:] Really? [Harry:] Unemploy were bad in Lancashire in er in nineteen thirty you know.... They went on their knees nearly to get jobs.... Well I couldn't take I couldn't do nowt about it at all so I went to see t head of firm and... Aye, he says, it's bad, he says, we don't know to do things like that.... It were bad where erm... Have I been talking in that thing all time? [speaker001:] You have indeed. [break in recording] Mr? [Harry:] Mm. [speaker001:] C when you first came to Llandudno you were eighteen years of age as you said. [Harry:] Yeah oh I was er I was [speaker001:] Can, can you can you tell me something... about the Llandudno area during that time. Erm [Harry:] very ni and and er... the Road you know with a bridge [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] it was a level crossing there. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] And er it was all fields... right up er.... There were no main ro well there was a road but... nothing like it is today.... And there was a Yorkshire firm... covered it covered that road... tarmac or something they said, It'll last twenty years. and it lasted about thirty. before they came and did it again.... And all and another thing... I tell you th this this is worth knowing... I've seen... you won't credit it but I've seen a rowing boat in Street.... In December nineteen eighteen. The floods.... And the hi high tides. And these seas here er nearly met... from the promenade and the west shore down here. It were flowing down the both ways down. And it was coming down... the side streets... erm... by er Hotel er... what's the name of that street?... What's the name of that street, opposite Church? [speaker001:] Street? [Harry:] Mm? [speaker001:] Street? [Harry:] No no that's round post office. No coming off at promenade down into Street.... Well there's several roads comes down into [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] Well I saw there by the what's now, it was in them days, I've seen a rowing boat mm... in there in Street. [speaker001:] Dear me. [Harry:] That were in December nineteen eighteen. That's a fact.... And there wasn't the defence the water defences, tide defences on the west shore then that there is now you know. [speaker001:] No. [Harry:] It were more or less open tides the high tides used to come over and down here, it all used. [speaker001:] How deep would it be? [Harry:] Oh I er I couldn't tell you... be a couple of feet or something like that. Might be a bit more. Of course it subsided after a while but... oh there were some storms then that winter. This er winter nineteen eighteen........ Dear me. [speaker001:] What else can you tell me? [Harry:] Well I er I... I don't know I could tell you a lot if I could just bring it to mind. [speaker001:] What about entertainment... in Llandudno? [Harry:] Well... there was a big reunion er you know for all the m all the soldiers all the sold came back out of the war. In the Palladium after it we soon after it were built. Ooh the they had er it we it were built as a proper music hall was that you know. Palladium. [speaker001:] Was it? [Harry:] They had some big musical shows there.... On er the manager outside with er a tall hat on and his frock coat and the made a lot to do about him. And butchers next door where you know where shoe shop is on street, well grocers were there on that corner and th when we come here there were hams and bacons hung up outside all night. [speaker001:] Really? All night? [Harry:] You wouldn't see them today.... Yes all night. And Corner well er it it's turned full circle has it were when we came and then er there were other firms... they did away with some part of the shop. And the corner was the Northern jewellers but it's back to again. And they were er er erm house higher up they were Italian like Italian they did coffee you know you could smell them grinding, and hams and old old style grocery shop, tea and all that sort of stuff.... Oh er lovely shops were them.... They were.... Aye they were and er... come in... [speaker001:] What was Llandudno like during the summer holiday periods? [Harry:] Oh it was it was full.... Always full of visitors. [speaker001:] Where did they come from mostly? [Harry:] Oh er the Midlands and down the south. Some used to come year after year you know. Us some used to come and take o take houses o down west shore, take take these houses for a month, bring their own... er bring their own servants and... er own footmen and I don't know what besides.... Oh they did that the er there were er... lot of wealthy families used to come here.... Will you excuse me I'll have to go... can you take that off? [speaker001:] Cer yes certainly. [Harry:] I'm I'm just going to toilet. I I won't I won't be a m [break in recording] ... The old minstrels you know, black and white minstrels. The they were niggers here when we came here at first. And they used to go and er th odd ones er and they used to go to the houses in the street, there were a chap er down th er that street opposite the er er the every morning.... And the were another er blind man, they used to say that he wasn't blind you know... and he he had er old fashioned bassinets... prams you know. And he had a gramophone in. And he used to go to these houses Dunoon and them and er all the way down and around the promenade... around the south parade and er and he used to go these houses with all these and then there were some er black and white minstrels... in the valley. They used to go out in the morning to these houses, then they'd give a performance on the sands. And then in the valley in the afternoon. [speaker001:] How many minstrels was there in the group? [Harry:] Oh there'd be a dozen or sixteen perhaps. Proper b blacked up proper they were well thought of you know. [speaker001:] Yes [Harry:] ... what did they call that man he er we used to have them at Pierhead as well.... Th er Alex Munro but that were years after. But when we came at first there were these erm... there were these er street... street musicians you know. They used to go and whole lot of these houses round about here have seen them. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] Er one with a cornet every morning down there. [speaker001:] What else What else was there in the form of entertainment on the promenade? [Harry:] Oh the there wasn't much. [speaker001:] Was there anything for the children? [Harry:] Er oh yes there was. Punch and Judy of course.... There were always that there.... Aye. [speaker001:] What what er [Harry:] Codmans. [speaker001:] Oh yes. [Harry:] Aye er th though that were about er and then they used to have Sunday evening conc a bandstand and the town band every every evening, and Sundays singing you know. [speaker001:] Did you used to go and listen to them? [Harry:] Oh aye I went many a time in them days yes. I used to come here for weekends and I used to come home at weekend and holiday time.... And then er... oh I often used to go to the pier concerts you know, Sunday night, Saturday night and Sunday night because they tiptop musical concerts. The good orchestra. [speaker001:] Ho [Harry:] The nearly fifty in that orchestra. [speaker001:] How much did you have to pay to go in? [Harry:] One and er... it were one and three into pictures. Cinema er er... er Savoy and Palladium and then that other in er Mostyn street. What did they call that? Princess. Princess. [speaker001:] What sort of films did they show? [Harry:] Mm? [speaker001:] What sort of films did they show? [Harry:] Oh the old time films you know like there were... sometimes you get one occasionally on television now. Like Good Companions and... and er these a lot of these musicals and musical comedies. Oh they were very good too.... Oh yes. And orchestral concerts. [speaker001:] Who [Harry:] That's what I like to see. [speaker001:] Who were the popular film stars in those days? [Harry:] Well I don't know as I d I d... although to tell you the truth I've always had a weakness for pictures ever since I was a boy.... Going to t and I used to go every Saturday night here. Either to the Astra or to the er Palladium. And they used to tell me at home. Er my wife's mother used to say, I don't know how you can go sit in pictures all that time. Er I I us I used to go by half past five, have my tea early and didn't come out till about nine o'clock. And then I went to British Legion to have a drink. But er... and then when television come... her mother was sat over it all times and she used to tell me about going to pictures. erm you know Ronald Colman er he were a a good artist in them days. And Good Companions that were er, they don't make stuff like that today. The rubbish that's on television today er it's scandalous I call it.... To what er they show some of the old films like they had in them days... some of these circus pictures... and travel pictures... Now I'll tell you something... that's rather remarkable... I'll I'll b tell you as briefly as I can.... When I one time when I was wounded in France... I was on the Somme you know. [speaker001:] Were you? [Harry:] And Ypres... and them places. Paschendale was later, one of my cousins was killed at Paschendale. But one time er I'd been er I were wounded and I 'd come out of er they bring you to casual clearly stations, thousands... got into one... I in this... ward er tents and best way they could you know and nurses there and all. So near the line... they're the only ones that went ne near front line. But anyway I remember one time and it er I think it was Christmas time, and there was a German... they brought Germans in just same as us you know... Fritz. And he were in next bed to me, the truckle beds you know.... Er the next bed to me... and he he were trying to talk to me and I er he... and he wanted one of my buttons of my tunic. Gun buttons. The Royal Artillery had a regimental button.... So I give him one here you are er I says you can have it. I says what you gonna give me?... Ooh he says his pocket, he ga he got a German field postcard out.... You know we had we had field postcards in all them days. And this were a er field p his regiment with his regiment on, and he wrote his name on... and where he came from. in Hanover.... He wrote this on p. And I had that in my pocket for years. And then... when my wife died and I had to sell all you know it disa er I think er it got away with er some old stuff you know. [speaker001:] You lost it? [Harry:] I think that's where lost lost it.... But there a sequel to it. Long after I came to the army as I were telling you I used to go to pictures, I were in the S in the Savoy down Mostyn Street one one night I went... and there in the programme there was this old... er travel picture er some town or other th. And th that that night the travel picture came on and it said Hanover. And it c all come to me then. I remembered that German lad at er sat at side and I gave of one my gun buttons and he gave me this postcard...., Hanover.... And a beautiful... town you know. Showed all all about it. remarkable that I [speaker001:] It was. You never got... round to going over to visit him then? [Harry:] No I er I said er if I'd have kept that postcard it there were his address on you see I could have f I could have found him, but... no.... But you know when I when I c last time I came from France and I came a came across the widest part of the channel... er I got done once... I had a B written on my board and then they come and... crossed it out. And I back up the line I had to go. But some months after when I was er I were badly hurt th that last time. I got it round here you know. [speaker001:] In your head? [Harry:] Aye er and er... I got to the now... on the and... steamers go so far up, past Le Havre at the mouth... Le Havre we disembarked when we went out to France first time and we took guns and all sorts.. But coming that time I was dumped in a... in a field. Thousands wounded you know, you couldn't get you into these into er huts, they were army huts you know er and taking them in er out in rain and er best best you could. But even eventually I got in.... Oh I could tell you a lot about this but I'll I'll just tell you a little bit that's all.... Er we came... I was er... the doctor put a big B on my board at back. Blighty.... Oh I'm alright for I'm going this time.... And they didn't cross it off.... There were one night the door... and we'd been in quarantine you know for th that three weeks. But that's where there's a lot more stories attached to that. He said... he shouted my name out. Be ready for England at two o'clock. Ooh. And it were er early evening then. And I were ready. Got my uniform on and everything. I could walker, I were a walker. I could walk you know. I wasn't I were only bandaged up.... And we crossed from to Southampton. That's th the widest part of the Channel.... And night before they'd sunk a hospital ship. U-Boats.... We came across in broad daylight.... [sniff]... We got to Southampton alright. And I'd written the postcard on boat er they gave us all postcards to send home. But I [LAUGHTER] er I never wrote it till we got to t other side.... And I wrote it w because we... there was a new Great Western I remember this quite we, new Great Western hospital train on,... double engine... on platform at Southampton. Wonderful train. Six... six of beds.... And the corridor down and kitch two or three kitchens that were... we we went er I asked one of th the attendants... I got a I grabbed the another chap with me we we'd come across together. He said, Let's get in here and we got in, he got into one bunk at one side and I got in to t other. Right level with the window.... You know you could see out onto platform.... And we went from there from Southampton to Aberdeen.... That's a long way, fifteen hours on the train. And it only stopped once and that were at er unless it stopped to change engines somewhere, perhaps it would, but it stopped in Birmingham for twenty minutes and what a twenty minutes it were. They let the people in you know... ooh my... by time we set off I er it were like Christmas. My bunk and all the others were piled up with stuff, cigarettes, chocolates, money, magazines... anything you could wish for.... [speaker001:] What [Harry:] They'd have given you their if they could.... We'd all er er just come from France you see. [speaker001:] What regiment were you in? [Harry:] I was in the Royal Field Arti Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery. We had horses in them days.... And I could ride like a red indian. [speaker001:] Really. [Harry:] I used to like riding. I did that.... Er on these sections when they have to er rejoin up after being away you see. [speaker001:] What happened to your horse? [Harry:] Ha? [speaker001:] What happened to your horse? [Harry:] Oh I don't know, you'd a fresh horse every day. You never got same [speaker001:] Oh did you? [Harry:] horse twice when you were training.... No. That's another story I could tell you it'd er er make your hair curl.... Mm. isn't time to tell it now. But er... when we when that er train I er had I'd written the postcard for home and I asked a lady if she'd post it for me. She says, I certainly will.... I says, I haven't got a stamp. Oh oh good grief she says you don't need stamp. [cough] [cough] There were books of stamps all up and down your bed and cigarettes and money and any everything you could think of. [speaker001:] How much was the postage for a postcard in those days? [Harry:] Penny. ha'penny. [speaker001:] Ha'penny? [Harry:] Ha'penny... postcard.... Penny for a letter.... overseas th er the forces are are all free. There no nothing to pay on them. [speaker001:] No. [break in recording] What's the chapels and churches in Llandudno? [Harry:] Well majority er then in them days we were Welsh they are they are English, they're English erm Congregational Christ Church and then there were the English presbyterian across the road.... But the majority were Welsh churches. [speaker001:] Have there been many changes... in church and chapel attendance... since then do you think? [Harry:] Er no I don't think so.... No they're very er....... Er the er... of course it is more or less Welsh district than they're they're very well attended is the Welsh churches. And the er... there's there's er... one one of them two of them had to close down.... Er close and then they moved to er help other churches you see. You see there's there's the baptists in er Street, that that had to close to make way for er for all that shopping area, Boots and whatnot.... That was er... that was the baptists. And then there's St across the road that's very popular is St. And there are all these er... singers in in er summertime... special services.... Oh yes erm... er that was the Welsh church that closed.... I don't know of any more. [speaker001:] How long have you been here in Plas-y-Dre now? [Harry:] Mm? [speaker001:] How long have been here? [Harry:] Plas-y-Dre? [speaker001:] in Plas-y-Dre? [Harry:] Four years. [speaker001:] Four years. [Harry:] It's very er it's it's a good thing look how nice isn't it? [speaker001:] Can you tell me something about it? Is it [Harry:] Oh er well it's it's well ru Well very well conducted. And very well liked.... And very good staff indeed. [speaker001:] You're very happy here? [Harry:] The yes, they look after you your slightest wants. You only need mention it and it's there.... They look after you for everything.... The er they're exceptionally good.... And that was a, that was a good er... I didn't know nothing about that you know until they er gave me. [speaker001:] What's that? [Harry:] It was it was in the pa television. [speaker001:] Oh yes. [Harry:] It was in the paper about it, er the presentation you know in er the Royal Artillery Club. [speaker001:] Are you telling me it was presented to you by the Royal Artillery Club? [Harry:] Mm? [speaker001:] Are you telling me it was presented to you [Harry:] Yes. [speaker001:] by the Royal Artillery Club? [Harry:] By the by the regiment not by this Club. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [Harry:] By the regiment. And I had a nice letter from the... commanding officer... the Royal Artillery. [speaker001:] That was nice for you. [Harry:] Yes. About two years since they gave me that. [speaker001:] And it's working alright. [Harry:] Ooh fine er yes. I've no trouble with it. Yes. They made a nice presentation... made a nice er nice do with it and then they er... quite a few there. There's one at er one man in er Wrexham belonging to the disabled soldiers and sailors... looks after you... they come and see you you know, they come here. He'll be coming here anytime now that man. Mr... he had a lot to do with this... and the Royal Artillery Club here had... and er... I thought it were a nice gesture. [speaker001:] Very nice. [Harry:] Oh it was. Yes.... Yes they look after you.... They do. [speaker001:] Well you're looking very well. [Harry:] Aye well... I don't whether I told you I had a er I went on a holiday... to the er... beginning of September. [speaker001:] Did you? [Harry:] Then I had a blooming fall.... No... old war injury you know. And it made it ten times worse.... They shouldn't wi all the money they spend on des designing and er whatnot and the the big shops. And then they went right across the centre of the shop two steps, no guardrails, nothing. Down I went. I thought I'd broken my leg.... And I'm still under doc but I still hurt you know.... I can't walk half as well as I could. [speaker001:] No. [Harry:] And I were doing very well. I walked whole length of Street first day we there. And then I were jiggered.... I couldn't go nowhere.... No er... I th I thought Mr had been here before now, but he's a very busy man you know, he'll be coming. [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] They don't neglect you. No, no.... No. Have you seen that picture? [speaker001:] Yes. [Harry:] Aye. [speaker001:] I have been looking at it. [Harry:] That's that's one of t. And this this' ll be interesting if you er if you've any engineering friends friends that'll [speaker001:] Do you want it back? [Harry:] No, no you can keep that. I can get some, get another. I go to Ffestiniog sometimes you know. And I'll be going there in December all being w [speaker001:] It's awfully nice of you. Thank you [Harry:] Oh yes [speaker001:] goes to the museum. [Harry:] Yes. Oh yes.... Have you got to know all you want? [speaker001:] I think so. I'm overwhelmed with that [Harry:] If er if there's owt else you want to know you can always come in come in or I'll come and see you [LAUGHTER] either way. [speaker001:] Thank you very much indeed. [recording ends]

[Derek Thompson:] [music] Good morning. It's Mackeson Gold Cup Day, it's been raining heavily at Cheltenham, there's a non-runner in the big race details coming up. We'll also be looking back a little bit at the Breeder's Cup, we'll also have the result of your poll for the Channel Four racing personality of the year, there's the picture puzzle and lots of other things as well which I can't remember. You look a bit like Annie Oakley this morning. [Lesley Graham:] Or Annie get your gun if you're not careful [Derek Thompson:] Exactly. [Lesley Graham:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] And Oakes I do like your tie. [John Oaksey:] I'm glad you mentioned that cos it was given to me by the wife of the steeplechase handicap a very important man today cos for more than [Derek Thompson:] She didn't whisper [John Oaksey:] and Melinda his wife runs Simply Delightful which is wh that's one of the things she has a shop in Malton and that's something [Derek Thompson:] Didn't whisper anything that's well in today in the Mackeson did she? [John Oaksey:] No. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] What's on today? It's a busy old day. [John Oaksey:] Well it's lacing there's racing all over the all over the country and except at Ayr in Scotland it's raining everywhere I'm sorry to say. Racing at Ayr up in Scotland where it is dry, Nottingham, Cheltenham where the Mackeson Gold Cup is, big card at Windsor with a lot of runners and finally the all-weather racing at Lingfield. [Lesley Graham:] ... Well as John said wet and windy everywhere unless you go very far north but those people up at Ayr it's gonna be cold so you can't have everything. Main meeting as we've said is Cheltenham let's have the news from there.... First race there twelve fifty the going at the moment is good but they have had a quarter of an inch of rain overnight so of course I suppose there's every chance it could go to good to soft by this afternoon. Two important non runners there in the twelve fifty, number seven Far Senior and in the two o'clock number thirteen the I wouldn't say old timer but Panto Prince anyway shame he's not going to get a run. It is raining at the moment and it's gonna be wet and windy but quite mild for the rest of the day. No hazards but there'll be a good crowd so get there in plenty of time. [Derek Thompson:] ... Actually there's a race at eleven thirty it's a running race between members of the Press and the jockeys, people like Peter Scudimore, Deckland Murphy, Ben Newton for the press he could be the dark horse. It's over hurdles as well that could be good for a laugh especially if er you don't clear them as well as you should do. Erm [John Oaksey:] Scu's Scu's for the press. Scu's running for the press. [Derek Thompson:] Scu's yeah [Lesley Graham:] Yeah [Derek Thompson:] Yeah is that a help or a hindrance? [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] I don't [LAUGHTER] anyway this is just one of the highlights of what has been two marvellous days at the Mackeson meeting sponsored of course by Whitbread and the big race today is the fifty thousand pound Mackeson Gold Cup confirming fifteen runners over two and a half miles. Panto Prince is out and General Pershing is now new favourite and clear favourite. Neil Doughty eleven to two, Bradbury Star that has to be the favourite easing slightly this seven to one with General Idea. Just looking at those prices on the screen I suppose Oakes General Pershing is a worthy favourite or is he? [John Oaksey:] Well it's a very very competitive race I I I suppose he may have the best chance but there are an awful lot with good chances. [speaker004:] I think he's got a great chance. I saw him around two weeks ago at Wetherby and er I think he'll run well. He was ten to one earlier in the week and the rain will have helped. [Lesley Graham:] Yes I mean if it if it does go to good to soft he will like the ground. There's a couple in there that would prefer it faster. [speaker004:] Mm. [Lesley Graham:] Erm but at that sort of price I think he's opposable. [Derek Thompson:] Well let's see what we can oppose him with. Bradley Star is a very nice horse he's a classy performer this one, Josh Gifford's horses are in tremendous form and I was talking to the man who who rides him Deckland Murphy he's my next door neighbour he thinks he'll run a big race. [Lesley Graham:] He would be my pick I must say, of them... He's he's [John Oaksey:] The trouble is he's run he's run some marvellous races but somehow when it comes to the crunch and er in in in better class races he just gets just gets beat. [Lesley Graham:] He loves Cheltenham though I mean he's had four firsts and a second [John Oaksey:] Erm, he's only won I admit [Lesley Graham:] yeah [John Oaksey:] he's only once been beaten at Cheltenham. [Lesley Graham:] Erm another I know er I've spoken to Deckland Murphy as well being the Newmarket's jumps jockey and erm they think he's the Gold Cup horse well if he is he's gonna have to put in a good performance today then I'd stick with him. [John Oaksey:] Think he's gonna win? [Lesley Graham:] Yeah exactly. [Derek Thompson:] It's a it's a very very good race this and one of the good horses is a horse called General Idea. Now what a training performance this would be if this horse could win because he's trained by Dermott Wilde and do you remember ten days ago he sent out Vintage Crop to win the Melbourne Cup down in Australia. Well the word from Ireland this week is that this horse is jumping out of its skin. The only problem is that the ground now might well have gone against this horse. But he did win the Galway Plate earlier this summer.... [speaker004:] This is fast ground [noise background] [John Oaksey:] At Galway and that's the problem with General Idea as you say Derek er if it gets softer like at Cheltenham that will be very much against him. But er it doesn't look like a steeplechase but [LAUGHTER] it is in fact [] [LAUGHTER] a two mile steeplechase the Galway Plate and General Idea running really well from and Express... but the ground's the problem. [Derek Thompson:] and lighter weight as well last year and has more weight today so he's had he would have had to have improved about four or five pounds to win today? [John Oaksey:] That's right. And there's very li very little between him and er the the other ex-Irish horse Second Schedule. [Derek Thompson:] Exactly. Well let's have a look we've got er Second Schedule. Now he's recently joined David Nicholson's stable. [John Oaksey:] Yes that's right er I er believe in fact I know because the Duke says so in the Racing Post today the reason he's gone there is to get Adrian Maguire because Adrian has ridden him already in Ireland and the owner wanting to stick with Maguire which you can't blame him for [Derek Thompson:] Exactly [Lesley Graham:] As David Nicholson said he'll be taking orders from the jockey today instead of the other way around. I don't imagine he says that very often. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] Perhaps he's given the Duke his orders. [Alastair Down:] Oh I'd like to do that. [Derek Thompson:] [LAUGHTER] Now well let's have a look at this horse and another schedule because as I say he was trained in Ireland by Arthur and er we saw them at Punchestown back in April where he finished second to another of his rivals today... Bishops Hall. [speaker004:] As they come to the final fence Second Schedule being pressed by Ebony Jane and Bishops Hall on the nearside and over the last Second Schedule and Bishops Hall on the nearside, Ebony Jane in third, in fourth place is Joe White and racing into the closing stages it's Second Schedule with Bishops Hall on the nearside Graham Bradley again as they go to the line, Bishops Hall wins it for Harry, Second Schedule is second, Joe White is third, Ebony Jane four. [Derek Thompson:] Bishops Hall doing it nicely under Brad and it's good to see him in the saddle today because he was offered the ride on Morley Street but he'd already said yes and he's a man of his word and he agreed to ride this horse. And there's been a lot of hoo-ha in the Press about should be ride Morley Street or shouldn't he. Once you say yes you gotta stick to your word and Morley Street, good horse, but has a lot of weight today. [Lesley Graham:] Lot of weight and again it's it's fences isn't it. He'd last time tried over these he he wasn't at his best. Erm... had a run on the flat so you know I mean I think we should be but [John Oaksey:] It's a it's a very bold thing of Toby Baldwin to run him in this race it seems to me, you know I mean he definitely appeared to not like. [Derek Thompson:] Yes [John Oaksey:] It's only his third run and he's he's in the most competitive two and a half mile chase in the year. [Derek Thompson:] But he oozes class and he's had a strange preparation. You mention the flat race. Let's let's have a look at that race. It was at Newmarket just a couple of weeks ago. [John Oaksey:] And I can tell you he he does an an awful lot. Here you can see him second last but making ground now. Er My Patriarch and er is is taking the lead from Ritto who later ran so well in the Cesarovitch but just look at Morley Street now. Here he comes past one past another past yet another into third place in the end... and that was an extraordinarily good performance. [speaker004:] No. [Lesley Graham:] It's a very good turn of foot for a for a jumper isn't it though? Very nice. [John Oaksey:] And he he very nearly won the Doncaster Cup wasn't it. Yes I think it was the Doncaster Cup. [Derek Thompson:] Yes mm. [Lesley Graham:] I seem to remember Toby Baldwin has said that erm [Derek Thompson:] Could be the short head. I backed it with thirty three to one is that it? [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] I remember that. [Lesley Graham:] [LAUGHTER] Trust you to remember that. [] [LAUGHTER] Now he does say he would you know he even thinks he could be a Gold Cup horse and emulate Dawn Run I mean again it's it's great claims this early on but er they wouldn't be running him if they didn't think he's got a chance. [speaker004:] Light would be a topical tip wouldn't it? [Lesley Graham:] Yeah wouldn't it just. And will like the ground. There's just got to be a bit of a stamina question mark there. [speaker004:] Mm. [Lesley Graham:] The connections and I know John as well are sure he get the trip. Erm he will like the ground. I suppose he's every you know he's got every chance if he gets home. [Derek Thompson:] Andy Turner's horses running well. [John Oaksey:] Just doesn't They're they're running really well [Derek Thompson:] Mm. [John Oaksey:] but it just doesn't want to get too soft because that old hill you know it it does get a big of a drag. [Derek Thompson:] Okay. We've talked about it. What's going to win the Mackeson? [Lesley Graham:] I'll go Bradbury Star. [Alastair Down:] Yeah he's gotta be there. [John Oaksey:] Storma Lad. [Derek Thompson:] Storma Lad? [John Oaksey:] Mhm. [Derek Thompson:] Mm. Well I think General Pershing will win but watch out for Our Margaret, twenty five to one. How's the betting looking Alastair? [Alastair Down:] Well General Pershing is the buzz horse this morning. Victor Chandler the longest eleven to two, I should think he's been trampled to death in the rush. Er Ladbrokes went five to one. That is being taken to good money they say, it was the professional's choice yesterday the faces were all backing it yesterday. The five to one will last to the end of the ten minute guarantee at the shops, it will then go four and by the General Pershing could be as low as seven to two or a hundred to thirty according to Ladbrokes. Hills have had erm each way for Nephew and Our Margaret but the focus of the betting today with this rain coming at Cheltenham is going to be Gordon Richard's General Pershing and he's gonna go off a short price. [Derek Thompson:] Is your money going to be on the favourite? [Alastair Down:] Er my money's gone on Storm Storm Alert about ten days ago at twelves and [Derek Thompson:] Mm. [Alastair Down:] that's almost certainly enough to nail it to the floor I would have thought. [Derek Thompson:] Are you worried that you were obviously worried about this rain as well? [Alastair Down:] Er likes it likes the ground. It needs the ground. [Derek Thompson:] Mhm. [Alastair Down:] And I've said that you know I'd rather it was on the soft but whether it will get [Derek Thompson:] Yeah. [Alastair Down:] the trip or not we'll find out this afternoon. [Derek Thompson:] It's gonna be a cracking good race at too. But what about the other race meetings today? Let's have the early news. Oakes. [John Oaksey:] Yes. Wind's up. There's no danger of the river rising so fast [music in background] it floods the course as it sometimes does but sadly as you can see, rain overnight and it's raining now. And do watch out for those roadworks on the M four just by the M twenty five junction. [music in background] [Lesley Graham:] [music in background] Well at Nottingham as well as first race twelve forty five there's a wedding. The prospective Mr and Mrs Martin are celebrating their wedding in a private hospitality suite and as well as er entertaining their guests they're sponsoring the Andy and Tracy wedding day novelties chase. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Lesley Graham:] And they have a runner in. So all the very best to them. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Lesley Graham:] The going however whether their horse will like it or not is good from good to firm and there's a non runner in the one fifteen that's number one urgh Canderbill, there we go. [music in background] That's about a third of an inch of rain overnight and again it's gonna be wet for the rest of the day. When you go into the course follow signs for Colic Park. [background music] [John Oaksey:] [music in background] celebrating your wedding with Chase but this is Ayr and it's the only dry spot in the British Isles. There was no rain overnight so that the ground er is good with just a few soft places. No hazards on the roads. [music] [Lesley Graham:] And the where the meeting of the day is at Lingfield Park. First race there twelve twenty because there are eight races so an action-packed good value afternoon there. An eighth of an inch of rain overnight but that shouldn't make any difference at all but a wet windy day. No reported hazards. [music] [Derek Thompson:] Doesn't look a brilliant day does it weatherwise at the races clouds. Wetherby by the way Tuesday third annual charity meeting in aid of the International Spinal Research Trust. It's on Tuesday sixteenth of November. A lot of local people have certainly er given generously so should be a good day's racing. Always is at Wetherby if you can win there you can win anywhere. But what about the guy who's won the Channel Four champion tipster competition for last week? Let me first of all give you his name and I'll tell you what this guy's damn brilliant. It is Robert from road in in Oxfordshire who got an amazing a hundred and thirty points. Now I say amazing let's just see where he got his winners. Now that okay no problems there, second and third but look at this, he gave the first second and third and they didn't even have a handicap. Er the Looking for a Rainbow, Flight Lieutenant, all skill of course, well you deserve that. Well done Robert and you get five hundred pounds. We'll have another champion tipster competition in a fortnight here on Channel Four which will be coming from Newcastle. Now let's test your turf knowledge as we go into the commercial break. This er turf trivia today has been sent in by S who comes from Great Lumley in County Down. Know it well. He asks quite simply... with which horses did trainer Fred Rival win the Mackeson Gold Cup four years running in nineteen sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy and seventy one? You get scratching those... heads and I'll give you the answer in three minutes from now. [music] Okay did you get it right? With which horses did trainer Fred Rival win the Mackeson in sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy and seventy one four years running. They were... Jupiter Boy, Gay Trip, Chatham and Gay Trip again. What an incredible performance that was. Three different horses won it four years running. The late and much missed Fred Rival By the way I saw Mercy at the horse of the year show a few weeks ago. Still looking as good as ever. Erm... non runners, non runners there were three in so far, two of them were at Cheltenham. They are Far Senior in the first in the twelve fifty and Panto Prince did not run in the Mackeson at two o'clock. And Canderbill is out of the one fifteen at Nottingham.... Any good news in the papers Alastair? [Alastair Down:] Well Derek for a change there is. And here in the Sporting Life there's the man who rode Gay Trip to Mackeson victory one of his Mackeson victories, Terry Biddlecombe. Large as life and smiling. He's been in the wars a bit since his racing career. He was one of my childhood heroes, a marvellous jockey and a great chap. He's been on the sauce basically but he's kicked the habit and he says of kicking the drinking habit [reading] I've had a lot of help and a lot of good counselling, in the end it's up to me. I don't want to be complacent but since March I seem to be winning []. Well that's great news. And a lot of people have rallied round Terry Biddlecombe, very popular man, Injured Jockeys' Fund among others and he's back in the back in the swim fully employed and in action for Mackeson today at er Cheltenham. Here in the Mail Peter Scudimore wearing his new hack's hat. Pipe can still meet the gold standard. There are a lot of people saying that Mike Martin Pipe is not the force he was etcetera but there's been a change of policy down at and if anyone thinks that Pipe has lost his touch they're talking twaddle. He'll be back and he might be back at working men's prices. You pay your money and you take your choice on the Mackeson and here J A Magrar in the Telegraph [reading] idea represents Mackeson value []. He has some very harsh words for the Japanese about their ban on Frankie Detory saying it's shortsighted and harsh in the extreme and we'll all say yes to that. Er in the Star Brad's a star. This is Josh Gifford exclusive another one of these trainers learning to be a journalist. Time some journalists learned to be trainers I think. He says [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Alastair Down:] I'm convinced he's a mu this is Bradbury he's a much better stronger horse this season and really do think he can bring the beer money back to Sussex. We will see. And here today's bandwagon rolling tip, [reading] Pershing po poised to fulfil his promise [], that's Paul Johnson in the Racing Post, John de Moreville in the Express [reading] Pershing to strike his target [] and now here is something of which nobody can be proud [reading] Gosforth Park South Africa []. This is in the Sporting Life and it's also in the Racing Post and this is a cynical move by the bookies to pick your pocket. There are five race meetings today. There are more dog cards than you shake a stick at yet the bookies are peddling this tripe from South Africa through the morning. Now in the first race the ten fifty, number nine is called Jew Wanna Bet [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Alastair Down:] Now when you hear that mentioned in the betting shops go no and pull the plugs out of the television. We do not want to bet thank you very much on South African racing, we've got quite enough of our own without the bookies. [John Oaksey:] I like South Africa. [Alastair Down:] Well you're barmy. We've got quite enough of our own without you peddling the [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Alastair Down:] South Africans. Now controversial stuff here in the Sporting Life David Ashforth.... Now Jerry Bailey the man who rode Ah Kong This is at a press conference after the Breeders' Cup. Jerry Bailey typically articulate was being asked about his success on Ah Kong He described how he had moved alongside a European ridden horse. He didn't know which one it was he just knew it wa was a European rider. How did he know that? The Americans all sniggered. Bailey smirked a bit. Well he replied he was kind of flopping about. And everyone laughed. Well all the Americans did. We didn't. That was Walter Swinburne he was talking about. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Alastair Down:] And Bailey's comments are backed up by the trainer Derek Meredith who says American jockeys are better, they ride closer to the horse they're neater and they are stronger too. There was a warm hum of approval from the American hacks. You were there John, what did you think of all that? [John Oaksey:] I wasn't part of the warm hum of approval [Derek Thompson:] I don't suppose so. [John Oaksey:] and Mr Meredith was a failed jockey in England. He ended up riding a few jumpers in France so its erm although he's a good trainer now I don't think he's an authority and it's poppycock er frankly. [Derek Thompson:] But when appear over here they're a great success. Is there anything in it? [John Oaksey:] Oh of course they're of course they are a great success. They are top class jockeys. But our top class jockeys in America do not flop about they use a slightly different style. Admittedly they're a little bit less streamlined but if you're going to say that that makes a serious difference [Lesley Graham:] but what's the difference in the courses as well over here that our our guys have to cope with. [speaker004:] true [Lesley Graham:] The tracks in America okay we go over there and we say they're tight they're quite difficult to ride. There's nothing like an Epsom, there's nothing like the variety that our jockeys have to cope with [John Oaksey:] Yes. [Lesley Graham:] day in day day out [John Oaksey:] True. [Lesley Graham:] and it wasn't one of ours that dropped their whip [Derek Thompson:] That's true. [Lesley Graham:] out there so you know you can criticize. [speaker004:] Talking of the whip I mean we're only allowed to hit them five times over here. In America they seem to hit them twenty five times [John Oaksey:] And in all sorts [speaker004:] everywhere they want to [Derek Thompson:] anywhere they want to [John Oaksey:] Yeah [Derek Thompson:] So... but there it's it's a very interesting point there because a lot of our young boys now the Dow Holland Alan Munroes are riding more the American style. It's an interesting point. I don't think he's right in what he says but I think it might have been a bit tongue in cheek as well. [Lesley Graham:] They certainly weren't saying it about Lester Piggott on Royal Academy a couple of years back either. [John Oaksey:] No but I did say about it Lester Piggott on a few weeks ago. [Lesley Graham:] Yes. [John Oaksey:] Lester Piggott when he won on. [Derek Thompson:] Mm. [John Oaksey:] And the next [mimicking] []. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Lesley Graham:] [LAUGHTER] Very good. [] [Derek Thompson:] Very good impression. [Lesley Graham:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] Talking of Lester Piggott he of course was the winner of the first ever Channel Four personality of the year trophy which we awarded for the first time last year. He was a guest on the morning line at Newmarket and there it is that magnificent... trophy which is valued at five thousand pounds. Now we couldn't have him in this year to give the others a chance so this is how you voted for the nineteen ninety three racing personality of the year on Channel Four and let's take it in reverse order starting with the person who finished fourth. In fourth place one of the hardest working and most successful trainers in Britain Jack Barry. He polled nine percent. In third place the most successful jockey in the history of national hunt racing Peter Scudimore. He polled eleven percent. Runner-up the ever popular Willie Carson. Willie received seventeen percent of the overall votes. So who did you vote for? Who's the nineteen ninety three Channel Four racing personality of the year? It is... Mary Reevley who polled twenty percent. Just as successful on the flat or over jumps I think this is a very very worthy winner our congratulations to Mary Reevley and I'm gonna get her on the show and present the prize to her. If we get her on the show that really will be something cos I know she's shy but well done. Ling Dell can be proud of her up in... North Yorkshire.... Charity bets twenty five pounds and we came down in the car from Newmarket she had the she had the post out the light everything, now what's what's it going on? [Lesley Graham:] Exactly. I've not, Alastair accused me of being topical because of a member of the royal family this week this is not the reason but I've gone for Leotard in the one twenty five at Cheltenham. [Derek Thompson:] Could a lot fitter than it did [speaker004:] ah [Derek Thompson:] [LAUGHTER] I love it. [] [Lesley Graham:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] Oakes what are you going for? [John Oaksey:] Mm. Ballasarly I'm going for. [speaker004:] Ballasarly? [John Oaksey:] There's a slight I mean over hurdles there's a doubt about his stamina [Derek Thompson:] Mm. [John Oaksey:] but erm he won at a huge long was it the er Queen Alexandra [Derek Thompson:] Yeah. [John Oaksey:] at Royal Ascot erm so that I'm confident he will stay and Mr Pipe is not dead yet. [Alastair Down:] That's true. [Derek Thompson:] And Alastair what do you fancy? What's your? [Alastair Down:] Er Front Street in a small race at Nottingham. Small prize big chance. [Derek Thompson:] Cor blimey. I haven't heard of that one. [LAUGHTER] General Pershing is the one to be on at the big race. That's mine let's check it out. Oakes is going for Ballasarly in the two thirty five Cheltenham, Leslie's going for Leotard that's the top weight in the first at one twenty five... er oh in the second. Alastair's going for Front Street at Nottingham number five in the two twenty, Thomo's going for General Pershing in the two o'clock at Cheltenham.... Picture puzzle. Picture puzzle. Can you work out today's picture puzzle? This horse is running somewhere... today. Okay [Lesley Graham:] I wonder where? [Derek Thompson:] I promise three extra ice creams [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] a day now will you please come on the set.... Something to do Miss er Sara Lingfield I wonder where that's running today? O eight nine one double nine double one double four... win a hundred pound do you win a copy of this book?... This is the William Hill racing dates. It's a smashing book that Graham Sharp's brought out. What's the date today chaps? November the thirteenth? Peter Niven rode a five timer at Ayr in nineteen ninety two. Eighteen eighty nine the Foston selling plate at Derby was declared void after the whole field got lost in the thick fog covering the course and ended up running round the back of a cricket pavilion. Have you been round the back of a cricket pavilion recently? [John Oaksey:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] But there was a one day in which Frenchie Nick Nicholson erm brought all the tail-enders across and had been told the one thing he shouldn't do was be last he was thinking I'm not last and behind you then he came in in front of him and he was last. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek Thompson:] [LAUGHTER] I love it. Lovely story. [] Anyway that's it from the morning line. I'm off to Windsor they're off to... Cheltenham and everywhere else. We'll see you next Saturday. We'll give you the result of picture puzzle then. Till then from all of us... bye bye. See you next week. [music]

[speaker001:] further questioning. was strangled at her house in the Peartree area of Derby. Her body was found on Tuesday night. Two years ago her husband burned to death in a mystery fire in the same house. Yesterday detectives arrested a man and a woman in connection with Mrs death.... Meanwhile two people are being questioned in connection with the murder of a Northampton man.... Peter Howell was stabbed just two hours after being released from policy custody. His body was discovered on Saint Andrews Road. He was well known in the local drugs scene. Police say they've arrested a thirty eight year old man and a twenty six year old woman.... One of the region's universities is to spend thousands of pounds installing the latest high tech computer equipment.... Derby University is one of the newest in the country. Hundreds of students have just begun their first term and computers are essential in just about every subject. Now the university has decided to spend one hundred and fifty thousand pounds installing more than a hundred of the latest computers. Students from all faculties will have access to the machines at the Keddleston Road site. Staff say the computers will be used for everything from report writing to course registration.... Hundreds of car enthusiasts turned up today for the South Lincolnshire Motor Show. It was rough going for some of the exhibitors as they put a new four wheel drive model through its paces.... Meanwhile the public had the chance to try out their driving skills on a slightly smaller scale. The show continues tomorrow.... That's the news so far we're back tomorrow lunchtime and don't forget to put your clocks back one hour we all get an extra hour in bed tomorrow morning. For now though from all us goodb good evening. [music]... [speaker002:] [theme music] Central Weather sponsored by Legal and General. [Tracy Barden:] Good evening. Cloud has been affecting most parts of the Midlands today but not quite as much as up there in Scotland although that's gonna make a bit of an impression on us tomorrow. For tonight though patchy cloud'll feed back across the region from the northeast. There might be some mist floating around down in the southwestern part but generally those temperatures will be above freezing. This dry pattern will continue into tomorrow but the cloud I've told you about in Scotland will wander down towards us bringing some thicker cloud for a while. But generally a dry and fairly bright Sunday. Bye bye. [recording ends]

[Bob Hall:] [music] A Wolves penalty miss lets in Stoke... Derby dig in to hold off Palace... and Peterborough put Birmingham on the spot.... Hello, welcome to the Central Match Goals Extra. Coming up the best of the action from the Endsleigh Insurance League, we start at Molyneux it's Wolves and Stoke City, Phil the reporter. [Phil:] In each of the last four games there's been speculation that Lou Macari was taking charge of Stoke for the last time. If this was his swan song it started poorly. David Kelly sixth of the season put Wolves ahead.... Macari's opposite number would have been pleased. Graham Turner's future has also been to the fore recently but for different reasons. And had Andy Thompson scored with a penalty after he'd been fouled by Simon Sturridge, Turner would have been even more comfortable.... But it wasn't to be and within a minute Stoke were level. Paul Cook's poor pass let in Martin Carruthers. His shot was well saved but Mark Steen was present for his thirteenth goal of the season.... In the second half Wolves had chances to win it. A neat move resulted in Kelly's volley, good to watch but off target.... And Wolves should have had a second penalty after Regis had apparently set up Kelly but Sandford's challenge went unnoticed by Mr Harrison, Stoke escaped and Wolves were denied the chance to regain the lead. [Bob Hall:] Derby County needed a win against Crystal Palace to put them right up with those early leaders. Palace though are not the easiest of opponents. Dennis has been watching the action. [Dennis:] Five minutes gone and Tommy Johnson free in the Palace penalty box is confronted by a Nigel Martin. The ball went loose and John scored his first league goal for Derby. And then Eric Young casually idling towards the corner flag has a clearance against Simpson, Johnson the loose ball against the post.... But with fourteen minutes gone Derby moved the ball slickly from Forsyth to Harts and on to Paul for a measured finish.... Two nil and the completely in charge. But there must have been a Palace revolution at half time. The visitors lethargic in the first half were very energetic in the second. Wright's neat overhead put in the persistent Chris Armstrong who threaded the ball between Wassall and Taylor.... With twenty five minutes into the half Wassall made a smother tackle as Armstrong charged towards the Derby box. The only question was yellow or red.... The ref opted for red and Wassall made an early departure for the second time this season. But Derby kept up their hundred percent home record and added a third goal with thunderous free kick. Derby three, Crystal Palace one. [Bob Hall:] We stay out east now for Peterborough United and Birmingham City who met at London Road. Keith Daniell has been watching the action there. [Keith:] Peterborough have been looking increasingly like first division fodder but today it was Birmingham who were left scrabbling around for crumbs and there weren't too many of them. Jason with a terrific run carrying the ball fifty yards and really there wasn't too much [LAUGHTER] doubt [] about the penalty decision. It would've been a bit dodgy at Wellford Road let alone London Road. But it took a couple of goes to get the ball in the net.... The ref said the first time the ball wasn't on the spot properly so the kick had to be retaken. No problem though for Tony he just hit it to the other side.... In the second half Peterborough had a man sent off but it didn't affect the final score, Peterborough beating Birmingham one nil at London Road. [Bob Hall:] Well Oxford United's match against Luton Town had the air of an early relegation battle as Tim now reports, it's not a good result for Oxford. [Tim:] Oxford have a problem. They do all the attacking but the other team do all the scoring. While United threw away a hatful of chances Luton had two shots on target in the first half and hit the jackpot with one of them as Kerry Hughes got them a goal.... United huffed and puffed but could they find a way through? Could they get a goal?... Same story in the second half. Beecham, Allan, Penny, Dyer, they could have all scored. None did, Oxford nil Luton one. [Bob Hall:] And Notts County had won four of their five league matches at Meadow Lane this season but they were given an early shock by today's visitors Portsmouth. [speaker006:] The last thing you need when you're at the bottom of the table is to concede an early free kick but today Notts did just that. Tony Dobson put Portsmouth ahead early on and it looked for a long time as though that was going to be the only goal of the game. But Richard Walker had other ideas, with just two minutes to go he coughed up. Notts have a terrific record at home under Mick Walker and they kept it going. At Meadow Lane today Notts County one, Portsmouth one. [Bob Hall:] And no joy for West Brom in the northeast where a single goal separated those sides as Sunderland prepare to meet Aston Villa in the Coca Cola Cup. And er once again the Hereford defence has proved itself somewhat leaky, five three. Crewe with that er goal from Sean Smith stay top. Shh Doncaster got the quickest goal of the afternoon in the first minute and Walsall got the only goal with seven minutes left. Football live at two fifty tomorrow it's Leicester City and Nottingham Forest. Join us for that we'll see you there. Bye bye. [music]

[Judy Laybourn:] [music] Hello and welcome to Central Lobby. Later in the programme we ask are positive discrimination and chauvinism thriving in the Labour Party? But first there was time when reading a soccer report in a Sunday newspaper meant catching up on how many people were stabbed and how many pitches were invaded. The football authorities say we can now concentrate on what happens on the field rather than the terrace, because hooliganism is being forced out of the game. The introduction of all-seater stadiums along with the new football offences act which makes it illegal to run onto the pitch are believed to be responsible for the reduction in violence. But arrests relating to football have failed to show a consistent decline and actually increased by more than twenty percent in the ninety one ninety two season. And it's claimed the battle against the hooligans is still far from won. Yesterday Andrew Fox went to the hotly contested local derby between Wolves and Stoke. [music] [Andrew Fox:] This was the image of football in the eighties... a game dogged by fans fighting on the terraces and running onto the pitch.... You might have thought this sort of behaviour was all over. It's not now.... Rotterdam this month brought it home the hooligans are continuing to plague the game. Soccer it's claimed is still a long way off finding a cure for violence. [Peter Snape:] Anyone who er regularly attends soccer games knows full well that the game does attract a minority of er young men who for whom a punch-up on a Saturday afternoon is all part of the game. So I fear er that any decline is er theoretical rather than a real one. [John Williams:] I still think we have... this problem, not as serious as it was... about established rivalries between particular groups of fans. what's interesting is that those rivalries are not focused as strongly as they used around the very big clubs, and we're talking less here about what's gonna happen at Manchester United and Chelsea and perhaps more about the difficulties of Wolves and and Stoke. [Andrew Fox:] Wolves in fact have done more than most to provide evidence that the game is ridding itself of violence. The football authorities come to Molyneux to support their claims that grounds are now fit for families, not homes for hooligans. In just four seasons here the number of people arrested on charges connected with football have fallen from more than three hundred and fifty to just under one hundred.... It's been a long time since a league game was played at Molyneux against Stoke. [Bob Jones:] Wolves themselves season have been quite well behaved. Er but there are a number of factors. Er for example it's erm it's a local derby. Er very strong rivalry between the two teams. And so er we're expecting perhaps it might be a little bit lively. On the day itself we had briefings er at the ground up here so everybody clearly understands what's expected of them.... And in addition to that of course we cover the safety aspects that are required up at Molyneux. Which is as important as preparing for disorder itself. [Keith Pearson:] It would be nice to think that we don't have to consider this, we didn't have to have meetings with our local police to decide what we're going to do on the day of the match in case there is trouble. Er yeah by all means er we'd love that situation but er I'm afraid er that's not possible at the moment. [Richard Faulkner:] Our main priority is to... stop trouble inside the ground. I think er the supporters like to be er looked after by the sort of their own people rather than er the the police force. [Andrew Fox:] The club has more than two hundred stewards to control the crowds as well as search the ground before anyone gets through the turnstiles.... The police have decided to deploy more than one hundred officers on what called a tidal flow operation, slowly shifting their attention from outside to inside the stadium. But this elaborate operation it's claimed only goes to prove that hooliganism rather than disappearing is just lurking beneath the surface. [speaker008:] Those of us who attend soccer matches as I do er regularly you've got to say that er it's not gone away, it's merely been contained. And containing it is extremely expensive and I personally feel that it's wrong to expect the community at large to go on paying week after week, month after month, year after year er in order to contain a problem which through no fault of its own belongs to the soccer. To imagine that there is er a great undercurrent of violence inside our football grounds is now quite wrong and I think the game isn't getting enough credit for the way in which it's tackled it. Or it may be there but the police and the stewards aren't allowing it to come out because they're keeping a lid on it so efficiently these days. No I think that's an unnecessarily pessimistic view. I think that crowd behaviour has improved, the clubs are catering much better for families. The climate of violence that used to be there inside football has diminished. [Andrew Fox:] As the first fans takes their seats another operation is under way to ensure that some never get to see the game. The police have undercover intelligence officers with the job of spotting troublemakers in particular those who have been banned from Molyneux. [speaker009:] We're always looking out for somebody who could cause er problems in Wolverhampton and problems generally. The er [Andrew Fox:] How do you know what sort of person that is? [speaker009:] Comes with experience.... Lot's of different factors go into it. Er sometimes what they're wearing you you find that er they tend to wear er a little bit of a uniform on occasions but they're not the normal people that we would be looking at. And not the ones with er I'm a hooligan tattooed on their heads. [Andrew Fox:] With the fans now streaming through the turnstiles, many of them being stopped and searched before going any further, there's a final briefing for the man who could influence their mood, referee Paul Harrison. [speaker010:] unclear we will only come on the pitch when you invite us... and we will deal with anything off the pitch. [speaker008:] You give a decision instantaneously? An honest decision. And it's only after that decision that you are aware of any crowd reaction. Er not at the time that you did it. Always comes seconds later. Any more of that? [background crowd noise] [Andrew Fox:] The atmosphere may as they say be electric but it's nothing compared with the nervous energy being generated in this box. From here police and stewards are directed to the slightest hint of trouble between the rival fans. [background crowd noise] [Judy Laybourn:] let's er keep an eye on the bottom now. [Andrew Fox:] Summat gone over the top now. give me the red give me the brown jerkin [speaker008:] It's hard to see er er a situation in which the kind of young men that we routinely produce in this country er are not gonna be interested in some kind of group aggressive violent activities. It's hard to see er a change in their interest in this kind of thing. Football merely provides the opportunity because a match is taking place but if they we if the football matches weren't taking place those criminal acts would be committed in another context. Football has done it its best in order to cope with the problem inside the grounds. [crowd noise] You can see it's a tense game er we've said before it's a local derby and er there are one or two minor problems. [Andrew Fox:] You've had arrests already? [speaker008:] Yes we've had one or two arrests but they're disorder offences and minor disorder offences. We still have a small hard core of football supporters that are willing and able to create trouble if they're given the chance. But I think if we persist if the club and ourselves continue the way that we're going those numbers will become less and less. [Andrew Fox:] As the game ends the police prepare to respond to any clash while supporters make their way home. Scuffles are reported but they're not given the chance to develop into any serious disturbance.... The Stoke coaches are escorted as far as the motorway. And within an hour of the final whistle the police operation is called off. Of course for the police the one one score line is not as important as these figures, eighteen arrests and thirteen ejections from the ground. That's out of a crowd of more than twenty thousand. [speaker008:] I think it's it's fairly reasonable particularly when you consider what we've experienced over the last two three and four seasons. [Andrew Fox:] What sort of offences were there? [speaker008:] Erm people spitting er obscenities, obscene gestures, er we've had two assaults er but they have been relatively minor assaults as far as we're concerned. There is a violent undercurrent in our society which has got nothing at all to do with football and where football mustn't be complacent is to provide the opportunities at its matches to allow that undercurrent of violence to manifest itself. I think the game I think the game has done well in tackling that problem but I don't think we as a society have done very well in tackling it in the country at large. Football clubs, football supporters er and parliaments have got to talk between themselves to try and come up with a solution. At the moment all we're doing is keeping the lid on a still a pretty serious problem. [music] [Judy Laybourn:] Well last night only three days after the shadow cabinet elections one of the women MPs who was thrown off John Smith's core team accused her male parliamentary colleagues of a cynical plot and a stitch-up.... Ann Clwyd who was not re-elected to her heritage post used her address to the Welsh Labour Women's Conference to attack macho M Ps. After the change in party rules forcing all Labour MPs to vote for four women in the shadow cabinet elections, has Labour's policy horribly backfired? I'm joined by Labour's Mel Reed M E P for Leicester and the Labour MP for Joe Ashton.... Mel Reed first of all what went wrong? Is positive discrimination the way forward? [Peter Snape:] I think it still is the way forward and I don't think it was so much that things went wrong as that they didn't go as well as we had hoped for the women elections to the shadow cabinet. It may be that it's time to look again, even though this new rule has been enforced for only these elections, at this particular method of positive discrimination. [Judy Laybourn:] Joe Ashton who did you vote for? And and is it is it a case of misogyny basically rife within the Labour Party? [John Williams:] No no it isn't. There are some brilliant Labour women in parliament. I mean the speaker Betty Boothroyd is magnificent. Mel Reed is a superb M E P. It's nothing to do with with that sort of battle. It is the fact that if you change the goalposts you'd better make sure the ball still goes between 'em. And that's what the women did. And what they didn't understand was the basic experience of any trade union branch which says if you wanna get six or eight people elected you don't put fourteen up. The thirty seven strong women's could not agree among themselves on what's known as a. And if they had stuck six or eight pe eight women MPs up they'd have all been elected. But fourteen of 'em were saying, No, me me me, and it er spread the vote too thin. [Judy Laybourn:] Joe Ashton are you saying that really there was no plot as such that there wasn't a sort of campaign that er some of the women MPs have claimed there was? [John Williams:] There wasn't a plot. There was some disgruntlement because what happened they tr they changed the rules. Now the first time they tried to change them in May they lost the vote, the women, to increase it from three to four. Usually in the Labour party any other organization you're gonna have to wait a year but the women didn't. They went round the back door and got to John Smith and they got the chief whip and got the chairman of the party and had a rerun of the vote two weeks later. This time they won. And er the men then got resentful, they said this is not on. You know they they should they should abide by the rules and wait a year. And that's when the sort of backlash built up. [Judy Laybourn:] Mel Reed do you think you could have predicted this sort of backlash? That perhaps things were moving too quickly? [Peter Snape:] I don't think so and I I find it difficult to believe and disappointing to believe that as many man are would deliberately spoil their vote. This is a very serious matter the election to Labour's shadow cabinet and I do not want to believe that men would deliberately spoil their vote. But I think it's a little bit rich if I may say so Joe to blame the women for this because the parliamentary Labour party did vote for this new rule and the fact that a number of women very able women put themselves forward, I don't think it's right to say it is the women's fault. A large number of men put their names forward in a a perfectly proper way. [Judy Laybourn:] What happened though did in in essentially basically dilute the vote and the spoiling tactics were allowed to happen. That surely was women's fault. Do you think the danger in positive discrimination is that er it's implying that women can't compete on equal terms with the men in the first place? [Peter Snape:] No I don't think that is the problem. I think we have to face up to the fact in the Labour party that quotas, that positive discrimination are essentially clumsy. They can backfire they can lead to some injustices but what they are is a signal that other methods of getting a better representation of women in parliament, in local councils has really not worked. This is the real dilemma you see. I think either we as a Labour party are serious about having more women in the House of Commons and we do very badly compared with many of our European neighbours. We either say we are serious and look for ways to achieve that or we say we've failed. But we all we can do is reflect the position of women in society, and I do not think that what's we're about and I do not think it's what the parliamentary Labour party. [John Williams:] No it wasn't a backlash against women. It was a backlash against quotas where you have got to vote for a certain number. We don't have a section for the disabled, but it hasn't stopped David Blunkett and Jack Ashley. [Andrew Fox:] Joe just [John Williams:] Doing tremendously well. [Andrew Fox:] Just briefly how do you encourage more women into the Labour party, very briefly, when they constitute fifty two percent of the population? [John Williams:] But they're not fifty two percent of the candidates. And what we've got in standing for a general election is about two and a half thousand men and about five hundred women. There is no way you're gonna get equality [Andrew Fox:] Just [John Williams:] with that volume. [Andrew Fox:] Just very briefly Mel I suspect perhaps a lot of women would stand if conditions in parliament were more [Peter Snape:] I'm sure that they would do. In the European Parliament for example we do have a nursery we have child-care facilities for seventy children which you don't have in the House of Commons. [Andrew Fox:] Perhaps. I'm afraid there we must leave it but perhaps that is the way forward. Thank you both very much indeed for joining us.... Well here it is, part three of those memoirs. In today's serialization in the Sunday Times Lady Thatcher concentrates on the Falklands conflict. She criticizes the then Foreign Secretary Frances now Lord Pym for the part he played, he would have agreed to a negotiated settlement, she would have regarded that as nothing less than surrender. Lady Thatcher's been on the road promoting her book and a couple of nights ago she was in Birmingham at a dinner hosted by the Birmingham Post. There is of course nothing new in the battle by memoir. [Bob Jones:] You have to go back a very long way indeed to a more decorous age when politicians didn't use the memoir as a weapon for reopening old wounds. There were nineteenth century memoirs and occasionally they were quite revealing but it's Lloyd George's memoirs of the Great War, the First World War that set in many ways the modern pattern... for old battles to be re-fought. And indeed as Lady Bracknell would say for ready money. That's not to say however that occasionally you don't get throwbacks to a gentler more courteous age. For example Alec Hume's memoirs were described them as this little book about fishing, a beautiful evocation of a countryman in Downing Street who would always rather have been with his fly on the river Tweed on the Scottish Borders. So it's not a progression all in one way... but I have to say that even by the standards of the Lloyd George era, the battle by memoir which we now see for considerable sums of money has become more than a cottage industry, it's a production line industry. [Keith Pearson:] That industry probably started in nineteen seventy five with the diaries of Labour's Richard Crossman. After his death his executors decided to breach the convention of not disclosing private conversations with other ministers and officials. [Bob Jones:] The ecology did change in mid seventy five. But I sometimes think it's earlier than that. It's now forgotten that when Hugh Dalton began to publish his memoirs with large chunks of his diary in in the late fifties and early sixties, particularly the the high tide volume that came out about the Labour government of forty five to fifty one which was very venomous. He was a deeply deeply unpleasant man Hugh Dalton. [Keith Pearson:] What would you say have been the successes and the flops of more recent times? [Bob Jones:] The ones that have done well in publishing terms quite rightly I think are those who have pl been plainly written by the person concerned, above all Dennis Healey and also Roy Jenkins.... Now I have to be careful what I say about Lady Thatcher's because of the laws of libel and also I don't know who's written which pieces but it's known she's had help you see. And when I see a wonderful phrase like William Waldegrave is like without the jokes I think now I wonder if she thought or said that? Is that quite her style of humour? Could it not be one of the two or three people who've helped her with the writings? Just touch that bit up. I may be entirely wrong but I'm going to be reading those when I'm allowed to put my hands on a copy finally. and I constantly wonder now is that Robin Harris speaking... or is that Mrs Thatcher? Is that John O'Sullivan with one of his ripe little one-liners or is that Mrs Thatcher? Or is this perhaps my old friend Bernard Ingham coming in one more time to help the lady of his adoration? [Keith Pearson:] But if I can just quote a couple of cases. You would've thought wouldn't you that Cecil Parkinson's memoirs would've sold very well, in fact they were a complete flop. [Bob Jones:] Again I don't want to be uncharitable but Cecil Parkinson I suspect in the public view is a man... somewhat but not entirely without trace. He just left a little trace of Brylcreem in any government seat he occupied. Now [LAUGHTER] by and large you don't want Brylcreem boys' memoirs do you? What people like is a brilliant bruiser like Dennis Healey, a character with a capital C. Parkinson is much too variety I think to appear more widely. [Keith Pearson:] Why do you think they do it? [Bob Jones:] Well the tom tiddlers of British political life I suppose write their memoirs for a couple of reasons because they can't ever admit to themselves they are tom tiddlers. Catharsis... there's nothing like reflecting in tranquillity to help heal those wounds, and most of them were pretty bruised by the nineteen eighties' experiences of the recent crop. And some of them think they're gonna make money. Even those that tend not to do very well attract some kind of an advance. And also... given the nature of the kind of people who want to wield authority over others they can't bear being out of the limelight, it gives them one last throw. Particularly if they get serialized in the Sunday newspaper. One last time the name is going to be talked about... in the circles that bother about these things and it's all to do with Mrs Thatcher who's prone to say about her enemies vanity, vanity, all is vanity. [Andrew Fox:] Peter Hennessey talking to our reporter Philip Tibenham. With just two words, prison works, Home Secretary Michael Howard has upset some members of the judiciary. Next week we try to find out why. Till then goodbye. [music]

[Mike Morley:] [music] Fresh police appeal in murder hunt. [Dave Johnson:] We're investigating a cold-blooded execution. We badly need the help of the public. [Mike Morley:] The man who took a one hundred and sixteen thousand pound gamble and lost.... And are we lighting up too early? [speaker003:] with the children I know this while in front it's too soon. [music] [Mike Morley:] A very good evening to you. An eleven year old boy has been held at gunpoint by armed raiders and forced to lead them to money and jewellery at his family home. [Marie Ashby:] The boy's mother, father and younger brother were bound and gagged during the raid. The attack has left the family terrified for their safety. [Mike Rowbottom:] was asleep in the early hours of the morning at his home in road Northampton. He was woken by a gun pointing to his head as he lay on the floor of his living room. Two robbers both with guns had got in through a kitchen window and were threatening to kill him. [speaker006:] Then he said if you shout I kill you. Don't shout. Then I'm frightened. Say how many people live in this house? How many people live in this house? asleep why shut up. [Mike Rowbottom:] Three other members of the family were pulled from their beds. Mr wife and his four year old and eleven year old sons. Mr himself was in the living room because of a back injury. They were bound and gagged with masking tape. The robbers repeatedly demanded money and jewellery. Mr eleven year old son offered to help so one of the put a gun to him and forced him to lead them to him threatening him at the same time. [speaker006:] He shout me Dad shut up gun. [Mike Rowbottom:] The phone was disconnected and the family's heads were put in pillowcases. Eventually they were able to raise other people in the house. Mr a forty four year old restaurant owner is still unable to sleep although his four year old son appears unaffected by what happened. The rest of the family is still terrified and don't want to be identified. The robbers described as Afro- Caribbean made off with an unspecified amount in cash and jewels. Police believe they didn't get anything near what they were expecting. [speaker007:] It it may be because erm they believe he has access to money or money er I would say here and now that information is wrong but er there would appear to be no other motive for this attack. [Mike Rowbottom:] For the moment detectives are stumped for the reason for the attack. They say the takings from Mr restaurant business aren't taken to the house and they've no evidence of any important jewellery being kept there. As for the family they're still frightened and they're scared that it might happen again. [Mike Morley:] Detectives hunting the killer of a businessman who was shot dead as he walked his dogs today carried out a reconstruction involving the car and a motorbike that they think may have been used in the murder. However they admit they are no nearer a motive for the cold-blooded killing of the forty year old property developer. [Jane Saggars:] Bouquets of flowers mark the spot where Mr Reynolds was shot dead exactly a week ago. Roses from his two children and his widow with moving tributes to the property developer police believe may have been the victim of a gangland style contract killing. Today timed to the minute a policeman wearing similar clothes posed as the motorcyclist detectives believe fired the five shots from close range in a remote country lane in Rushton in Northamptonshire.... The white motorbike with black panniers was later found abandoned in road in the town. It was here on the morning of the murder that a red Audi car then sped off from the area. Detectives say the two vehicles had been seen in and around Rushton on a number of occasions. They're appealing for urgent help from the public. [Dave Johnson:] We're devoting hundreds of man hours at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds and of course neglecting other lines of enquiry. What we really really need the public to do is er get in touch with us and tell us of any associations between... vehicles of those types. [Jane Saggars:] Through his business dealings the victim had been involved in a multimillion pound civil lawsuit. His home and car had been fire- bombed and Mr Reynolds had been attacked in the past. A police convoy used the streets around Rushton today in a bid to jog someone's memory to catch his killer. [Marie Ashby:] Two teenagers who were badly injured when a horse bolted are to begin a legal fight for compensation. But their solicitor says their chances are slim unless the law can be changed. [John Mitchell:] The schoolboys were pushing two motorbikes along this pavement when the accident happened. Three horses were being led down the lane opposite when one bolted across the road. Thirteen year old Keith and fourteen year old Colin suffered severe injuries. Five weeks later Colin is still in intensive care. [speaker010:] The boys were waiting to cross the road here and the horse came down this lane, galloped straight across the road in front of the traffic... then onto the pavement, tried to jump over the boys... and jumped onto the boys. And Colin finished up just down here on the pavement and Keith maybe a few yards further down er with very bad injuries. [Mike Morley:] He's had to have his spleen out, his spleen has burst inside him. Erm that was a bad time er a critical time, they didn't know if he were gonna live or die then... erm he's had a number of transfusions to keep him alive... but er he's stable at the moment. [John Mitchell:] In cases like this the solicitor says the law favours the horse owner rather than the victims. [Dave Johnson:] It does seem extraordinary and indeed we're hoping that we can change the law with this case. Because really in my view it should be that once something like this happened then it should be on the owners to prove they haven't been negligent. That there should be a presumption of negligence and for them to show that they've done nothing wrong. [speaker010:] I don't want anybody to go through what we've been through. It's hell. I don't want erm I to wish this on my worst enemy. It's a nightmare. [John Mitchell:] The families are now appealing for witnesses. Today the owners of the horse were unavailable for comment but their solicitor said that while they accepted the horse broke loose they do not accept liability and are disputing any claim the horse caused the boys' injuries. [Mike Morley:] A teenager who thought that he'd won more than a hundred thousand pounds on a bet has today been told that he'll get just seven hundred and twenty eight pounds. After five months of arguments a special committee has ruled that the bet wasn't valid. [speaker003:] Phil who's seventeen and works as a barman in Mansfield Woodhouse in Nottinghamshire thought he'd won one hundred and sixteen thousand pounds by correctly predicting the first three horses in the Derby. Ladbrokes accepted the bet without hesitation but claimed afterwards that their rules clearly state they can't take on such wagers. They agreed to pay him thirty three thousand pounds but he rejected the offer. Today the Tattersalls betting disputes committee met in London and ruled in Ladbrokes' favour. Now Phil will get just seven hundred and twenty eight pounds, the thirty three thousand pounds offer is no longer on the table. [Marie Ashby:] You're watching Central News here in the East Midlands, coming up next... Police appeal for information after a horse is stabbed to death.... Cash help for surgeons still waiting for keyhole training.... And boring or brilliant, are the Christmas lights going up too early? [music] [Mike Morley:] An investigation has started into an attack on a pony which was left dead and mutilated in a field. The police say it was one of the worst attacks that they've seen on a horse. [Marie Ashby:] Police were called in after the fourteen month old grey colt was found dead on a farm on road in Lincoln. The attack happened on Saturday night or early Sunday morning. Police say a sharp instrument possibly a knife was used to mutilate the animal. They describe the attack on the pony as malicious and are appealing for information. [Mike Rowbottom:] Anybody who might have been er at the Tesco store on Saturday any time during the day who might have seen the pony or even... people who walk their dogs because the field's used quite extensively for dog walkers. [Marie Ashby:] The police are appealing to horse and pony owners to be extra vigilant. Detectives investigating the murder of a woman at her home are following up new leads. They're appealing for help in tracing a red car. who was thirty was strangled at her house in the Peartree area of Derby. The car was parked near her her home on road last Tuesday. The body was discovered that night. Meanwhile two people who were held for questioning over the weekend have been released without charge. [Mike Morley:] Figures just out show that coal imports have risen by five hundred percent over the past ten years. It comes just days after the announcement that even more East Midlands pits could be closed down. [speaker006:] The figures released by the government show clearly the economic problems facing what's left of Britain's mining industry. In the ten years between nineteen eighty two and nineteen ninety two imports have risen from four million tons to twenty million tons. During the same period sales to the domestic market fell from one hundred and seven million tons to eighty million. And as a result the amount of coal produced by Britain's deep mines has fallen substantially. The government says these are the harsh economic realities faced by the industry. Mining unions who've been told even more pits may soon close say the government must do more to secure orders. [Marie Ashby:] Meanwhile residents have begun a campaign to stop a former pit being turned into a waste recycling plant. The scheme could provide more than a hundred jobs. [speaker007:] The campaigners all live within sight of Silverhill Colliery which shut down a year ago. The U D M is planning to set up a giant recycling plant here to provide employment for an area badly hit by pit closures. Local people say they don't want it. [Jane Saggars:] Filth, dust, pollution, children getting run over on the roads, road traffic. [John Mitchell:] I don't think any of the committee disagree with the fact that people want jobs. This is what we're not against that. Er but it's at what cost to the environment that these jobs are provided. [speaker010:] Some of these residents have lived in this road particularly all their lives and they've suffered the traumas of living next to a pit and are absolutely horrified er at the prospects of what is basically going to be a scrap yard. [speaker007:] A decision on whether the plant will be given the go-ahead will be taken early next year. [Mike Morley:] Hospital authorities are worried because surgeons and nurses aren't getting enough training in a fast developing new form of surgery. So called keyhole surgery is being hailed as the way most operations will be carried out in the future but only a minority of surgeons can actually do it. Now thousands of pounds is being spent to make sure that they know all about it. For this patient at Leicester General Hospital the T V screens are what make the operating theatre different. Shortly the screens will give the surgeon their only view of the patient's abdomen. The operation is one of hundreds that have been carried out in the last few years by keyhole surgery. [Dave Johnson:] The area of surgery has expanded at an incredible speed from virtually from nothing three years ago to taking over as much as fifty percent or even seventy five percent of general surgery. [Mike Morley:] But the training of surgeons and operating teams for keyhole surgery isn't keeping up with demand so Trent Health Authority is spending a hundred and fifty thousand pounds on a training centre at Leicester General. [Dave Johnson:] Around the country there have been isolated examples of operations going wrong perhaps because surgeons have not had good enough training. [Mike Morley:] For the patients keyhole surgery means no big scar. It's done through holes a centimetre across. There's less pain and a quicker recovery. For the surgeon suddenly everything's in closeup. [Dave Johnson:] A lot of the operations now I do I think I can do better that I'm now seeing detail that I never saw before with the naked eye. [Mike Morley:] At the moment it's mainly gall bladder and gynaecology patients who benefit but the skills the Leicester General will be passing on should mean more toddlers will be having operations through the keyhole too. [Marie Ashby:] Apologies if you're eating your tea. A city council has come under fire for putting up its Christmas lights too early. Some businessmen say they're losing trade as a result because... people are getting bored with Christmas weeks before it arrives. [speaker003:] [shouting] Oyez, oyez, oyez. Here in the town hall square in Leicester the city engineers are starting the erection of the Christmas lights. [] Already there are lights everywhere in Leicester but no sign of Christmas. Many businessmen say the big switch on is proving a big switch off for shoppers. [Marie Ashby:] Lights and everything like that is is is lovely to see but you see they've got lights here in Leicester which other cities and places haven't got. We've so we've got an extended night lighting er er display going on for er two months or more. [speaker003:] Other retailers don't agree and say the lights are essential to creating a happy and relaxed mood in the run up to Christmas. But many shoppers aren't so convinced. [Mike Rowbottom:] Christmas doesn't start until the end of December really or twenty fifth of December and you've got Guy Fawkes to come yet and Halloween and all that. [speaker003:] I think it spoils it for children it makes them it seems too long for them they're looking forward to Christmas. [speaker006:] I always feel it takes some of the magic away if you put things up too early. [speaker003:] Leicester City Council says that with forty thousand light bulbs to install it doesn't really have any alternative to starting so early. [speaker007:] We to put the decorations up in th in a s in a short time limit, the decorations take quite a long time to put up and as you know the decorations are erm are very famous er they're nationally recognized. [speaker003:] With signs the recession is ending the next two months will show whether the Leicester lights help or hinder shopkeepers. [Mike Morley:] Now though it's time for the break and coming up after that... crossing the channel with those magnificent men in their microlight.... In sport reds blushes speedy chops forest down... And preparing to take America by storm. [music] [Marie Ashby:] Two businessmen have just completed an epic journey which has taken them across the English Channel in a microlight aircraft. They took up flying for a hobby and say all you need is courage and a taste for adventure. [Jane Saggars:] A little shaky a little bumpy the start of a thousand mile journey that would test endurance to the limit. Pilots Philip and Ian began their challenge in southwestern France. The aim to compete against the elements and fly the craft safety home to Nottinghamshire. The flight was a tribute to a fellow enthusiast who died earlier this year from cancer. Ten thousand feet up there's just you and the clouds. With no telling when a sudden bout of turbulence can mean a sudden landing. Not far from the Channel the two surprised a French farmer and his family when forced to land unexpectedly. [John Mitchell:] We put down er obviously a local gendarmerie came along to see what was actually happening and actually bent over backwards to help us. It was absolutely terrific. Er they actually took us to the petrol station to get more fuel and after a er five course lunch with the local farmer and his family er which was all very nice and er not too much wine of course as you can well appreciate erm we telephoned the gendarmerie and they came along and er closed the main road for er approximately twenty minutes and we took off on a road. [Jane Saggars:] The next stage of the journey was the most perilous, the crossing of the English channel. The last time a group of pilots attempted the trip an engine failed... a pilot crashed and drowned. But this time success. Back on the ground in Nottinghamshire Philip has nothing but praise for his flying machine.... Tell us about the propeller, it's behind you on a machine like this? [John Mitchell:] Yes it's er actually pushing you along rather than the sort of conventional aeroplane light aircraft er which normally er pull you along. Erm as you can see it's er had quite a lot of damage on it since we actually came back but er it's been a very very trustworthy er propeller and engine. It's er the actual engine is er a Rotax five eight two and er it never let us down once. Er we're really we're really pleased with it. [Jane Saggars:] And the next journey an even greater challenge. A microlight flight across China. [Mike Morley:] Wow and from those dizzy heights to the new depths that Forest has sunk to here's Keith with all today's sport. [speaker010:] Mm and in our magnificent Monday montage we pay our regular visit to Goal City.... Just the one at Leicester but strike makes the foxes that top dogs.... And Derby are on the scent of promotion too after shattering Crystal Palace at the B B G.... Walker wings in as the magpies pinch a point against Portsmouth.... There's no hanging about here tonight it's straight into the action from all the weekend and we start with the big match at Filbert Street, Leicester City against Nottingham Forest. [music] [Mike Morley:] Leicester's new stand will be ready by Christmas. Some of the Filbert Street faithful reckon they'll have clinched promotion by then too.... was about to introduce a note of caution. Leicester are on a high though this season while Forest are very hit and miss.... David certainly more hit than miss, goal number eight of the season coming from this corner.... You just can't keep a good man down even if he is only five foot seven. Ironically Leicester are heading for the top using Brian Clough's style of passing football and it's Forest who are reverting to more of the long ball game. Leicester particularly dangerous from set pieces too. A speedy show.... It's all going wrong for Forest just when Frank Clark thought his problems were coming to an end.... Even Stan could only find one opening [tape change]

[Dafydd:] Yes I think that probably this had been er very wise in this er in so I'm not saying that they've helped us or anything but they've kept the middle of the line and erm... In the beginning when things were beginning to whatsit er the inspector sent two policemen down here and asked me would I ask the lads not to do any damage to property and all this, and that and said, Right there's a lodge tonight and I shall ask them I shall tell them to do that. And er why he sent for me because I'm not a shop steward or anything. But as I said before probably it's the white hair that er [LAUGHTER] that does it. So... what they had done it had a big slab there and it had got on it er The World's Largest Slate Mine, and perhaps you've seen it yourself they've rubbed the T off and they put V and somebody's done a very good job of it er in the same paint and everything. So tourists have been stopping even to take photo of that the largest slave in the world. [LAUGHTER] I mean that's not the right description of it [] but er anyway. Now Will brought down an old van er which was scrap it was quite a good body I mean and he painted on it, We're still open, er something like, Despite Transport and General Workers' Union picketing we are fully open, and he plonked this van with no wheels on it just the body right th in the entrance of th on his own ground naturally er right in front of the pickets which was like you know tantalizing. Naturally he he wanted to keep his place open and when he got up the next morning somebody had painted the side of the van completely over. So and smashed all the windows and everything in it erm so what's that and as I say it was only a scrap van er and now he'd bought the little chapel on the corner. Er there were lots of er little panes broken before but er whether our lads were having a bit of a pot shot. I mean when you're on picket line it's very depressing it's very heart breaking unless you get some comedian or something you know it gets er y you don't know what to do with yourself and perhaps they'd been taking pots of this paint I'm not saying. So I asked them in the lodge like don't do any damage and Tom was in e he gave them a good lecture so and the lads in the lodge said, Well look you tell them as well not to do this attitude and perhaps you've seen it on these flumes when they saw a crowd that was there they were changing gear with the Land Rover and through you know like anybody in the way you'd be underneath. So I said fair enough. Well the next morning I was up at the top gate on picket and erm came with his van and he he spelted up through and the lads jumped one side well, I'm nearly sixty five I didn't jump so quickly. And I don't I don't think I tried jumping. And I think he meant, and I say this quite fair now, I think he meant to come straight up to me and brake suddenly to frighten me. But he missed his trick and he came a little bit too far and he knocked me over and I was underneath the front of the van. Well [clears throat] naturally I was... I was raving wild when I got up and that's well the lads I thought they were going to turn the van over tell you the truth. And course he'd frightened himself and er I counted up to about eight, nine and ten I said to him, Look when you go inside that bloody gate now I said go straight into the office sit down and think for a minute where the hell are we all going to in this carry on? And I don't where I got I gave him quite a good sermon which I thought was y know quite erm to try and help the situation and he said I'd give them er my conditions. I said, while you adopt them that you'd give them your conditions we're getting nowhere. And I said you sit quietly and think and we shall do the same. And erm he was still at them and then that he was in the right. And said why'll well why'd you'd b dogmatic about it, I said we can't never be solve it. Anyway in the end he went in and erm the next thing the Inspector came up and er he called me and the Union chap into his car and er he said, We got a mark I said yeah well I had a little scar across me knee. So he said, Erm do you want to press charges? I I's thinking well this long would make the blinking situation worse and we're trying to resolve it. I said, No I don't. And he only had to wait a couple of erm points left on his licence so if I'd taken the dangerous thriving or something he could have lost his licence but erm that's besides the point. At the moment I thought, no the best thing was to forget it and that's what we did. And I'm not sorry that I did that because erm I wouldn't like I wouldn't have like to think that er anything I'd done had escalated the situation you know. And erm then the Inspector then found out if this scum works is going to carry on charging through these men. And as I say we did the mass picket down in Inspector was coming straight up t an the Sergeant to y you know what's like to leading er people and he said, Now what's the what you going to do what's what you want this morning? And we used to say, Well we want to stop the Land Rover. Right there'll be no punch-ups no nothing just one person to speak er to the driver or whoever he wants to speak to. Yes right. Well in that case and they'd been stopping them for us you see and er [clears throat] excuse me stopping them for us and whoever decided to speak to them has had his few words and that's it carry on. Well the other morning we were there and everything was quite in order what the police were afraid that somebody was going to get hurt. And when we were getting people from outside coming there and some of them quite militant they were going to sit and lay across the road. Naturally police didn't want that. So we thought, No if we can stop them to speak to them cos at the end of the day we can't actually stop them going up, we can give them as much harassment as we can yes er and keep within the law. Well as I say, the police stopped them the other morning and one of the lads had a chat with the driver and all this and he carried on. Well after they went round the corner one of these erm well stupid young lads in the back er lifted his two fingers on the pickets. But you see the Sergeant saw him. And the first thing he said, oh who's that bloke? And he got his name and he was up in the quarry during the morning and he's giving him his final warning that if he does that again he'll book him. Because he's really agitating the situation. And the same person, this young lad, I know he young stupid but erm I mean er I've had many a black eye for er speaking instead of listening but er h perhaps he'll be learnt the same way. Erm he goes round the pubs and he agitates on these lads. The lads that are on strike well I mean you'd think it'd be vice versa him being like a blackleg er that's er they'd be agitating but he's vice versa. I don't know if he's looking for trouble and of course that er would undermine er what public er relations and everything and we don't want that. But erm unless he alters his way you know I can see it coming off. But erm I think the police realize as well that he is a bit of an agitator and he's not to strike that's wrong. Yeah. [speaker002:] Has there been any sort conflict open open to in the in the town at all? [Dafydd:] I think there've been one or two not er brush ups you know in the pubs once er or twice, they er they won't drink with them and that and er some of the lads some of the lads that have gone back have really realized the situation they've put themselves in you know, and they sorry and now they're on they don't know which way to turn. I mean I feel sorry for them erm they've put themselves in a position branded forever more or less. One lad went back because his father went back. They did work in er two worked in two different quarries but within a week or a fortnight that young lad approached one of our members and said he's sorry that he'd ever gone back and I said to him well come back and join us and forget it all. And he's back in the lodge he's on less money but but he's much happier so. [speaker002:] He's he's out? [Dafydd:] He's he's out yes and there are two or three in which have erm... you know they're sorry that they've gone back and er we feel sorry sort of for them that they've dropped into and a lot of our young lads have got mortgages and all that but there are some gone back... er they need not people erm they'd finished rearing their families and everything. And erm if they could have given us a proper explanation why they'd gone back and prove us wrong them fair enough. But I think they'd just gone back for the money creed and once you get that well erm they don't realize that they could be falling into the trap unless we blokes stand firm now to maintain this standard of living. Well their standard of living will come come down. Right they're getting everything they want at the moment because erm er ease the situation. But I mean once this strike is over, unless we come to proper agreement erm they know then that then it will be too late then cos there's somebody saying then they came for the Jews first was it? I wasn't a Jew so I didn't bother. And then they came for the Communists, I wasn't a Communist so I didn't bother. And if I remember they came then they came for the Trade Unionist. I wasn't a Trade Unionist so I didn't bother. Then they came for me and then there was nobody to bother and that was the end of it. And [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dafydd:] it works in this situation the same. And erm... you know er sometimes I'm sorry that it's come to this because like this family er they made a bomb out of it we're not saying that we're not denying them that at all. We've had a good living out of it but if that same system has brought them on their feet, you know and built them nice homes er right they've delved into Company's House now, all the dirty water not dirty water all the whatsit has come up how much they've drawn from these quarries. I mean used to say quite often erm er I'd flat I'd erm show my pay packet against your's any day if we had a good week. We were much better off than him. Well yes because he had a Mercedes Benz which er with cherish number plates which the company buys him. The company runs for him. You know it's come out of the tax situation he's built himself a er massive big house or put an extension on it. The extension is bigger than the original house. We're not saying that that er has been done er through all the cheap channels I don't blame him probably do the same. But he wasn't saying that he was getting eighteen thousand a year from Ffestiniog slate alone as a director's bonus and he's a director of the other quarries as well. So how much is he getting? Er not trying to kid us that er he's worse off than us. Well never can he and er the other partners with er the plant hire that's been going for donkey's ages and never shows a profit. But I mean erm er figures can lie and liars can figure and he comes back well now when you go into Company's House and get all these things, how much they putting aside of the money which should erm like er so that they can get a good pension, well that money it doesn't come actual from their pocket, it comes from the company's funds which er really would have gone to the tax man. So er you know they're making their bed er nice and feathery and yet they denying it us and then that's where the erm the sore point comes in. [speaker002:] You mentioned earlier on [clears throat] about your attitude towards the erm minerals and mining [Dafydd:] Yeah. [speaker002:] is it I mean has your attitude you know th th that because it's under your feet is to use your expression [Dafydd:] Yeah [speaker002:] that that it it is in fact something that ought to be shared more and people ought to benefit more from what's here? [Dafydd:] Oh yes definitely. Yes erm [sniff] excuse me. Er reading old books there the they talk about the and er around and the beds and all that you know and the jollity people they're well known about it [clears throat]. My wife and my daughters are all erm great C N D and nuclear er whatsit people, so now when these people wanted to drill in way, drill for er geological mineral er Estuary cos that's a different story the Estuary. Er they were a bit erm er all the C N D group, I'm saying this now with no disrespect or anything. They were erm a bit reluctant and were going to fight against it cos they thought they were going to look for er places to bury nuclear waste and it was shelved but I can't prove them right and I can't prove them wrong. But definitely they should er explore this County and not erm wanted to come into I think it was into the Estuary to drill for gold and minerals an all that, and the planning of the National Park said, No, and the blinking hole is only about four inches wide. What I think should be done at that time was that the Government should be fifty percent shares in it so that anything that's er sample that's brought up they should know what it is. Because in one county there was erm I'm not sure it was Ireland was a big erm hired firm like that came, they explored round they paid so many hundred to each farmer for exploring the land and he said, Oh no we've found nothing. A few hundred quid was smashing. As the years went by these farms were bought up.... They didn't know by people were paying good money for them as er the farmers were moving out and it was er a good copper bed. But you see they didn't know the truth of the exploration, but if the Government was fifty fifty in it they'd be entitled to know the exact amount and quantity and what was underneath your feet. And I still maintain er of course they use the old argument that er tapes and all this and erm they er scar the countryside. Well to me when I come home of the Crimean I look at these massive tips you know in Blaenau on your left and the old on the right and that, erm if the old man that first rucked his pick and shovel or whatever trussel and or whatever they started would have known what he was starting then, it was like the Klondike of Wales. I mean I I'd love to see the the whole history and that's why I'm glad that erm you people are taking an interest now in not helping us but some day somebody saying who's that crank [LAUGHTER] who's been talking on there []. But erm no I think we should take full advantage of it we we're sitting on erm you know good minerals because as the minerals of the world getting erm shorter in 'sit erm in Africa they're getting all the copper its getting, well now they're shifting their interest slowly into Anglesey. As the minerals are getting er er slightly scarer scarcer well the percentage value of erm is it's wors working now. Can't see why we shouldn't er take advantage of it. But I mean you don't want to er start working in the mines for peanuts or anything do you, you want it to be a good job such as everybody else. [speaker002:] Erm throughout this you know since we've since we've been talking you you very clearly have given me erm picture of the people who own the quarries and own the and have the erm of the directories. [Dafydd:] Mm. [speaker002:] They are very much local people [Dafydd:] Ah yes. [speaker002:] and erm members of local families. [Dafydd:] Yes. I remember Glyn and the kids were very young I think some of the were born in Blaenau erm and they were dismantling an old quarry at there his brother W R from Harlech had bought it usa like a machinery merchant and Glyn then borrowed a lot of tools off me for dismantling it then we started we we'd done a lot off and on together we'd been in... er I enjoyed working with him, he was the type of man very hard worker himself but he wanted his pound of flesh. Er you know while you're working er there was no you had to stop him sometimes because he'd kill himself ha ha that's it. Yes he's built a business up and I'm not denying him that er or anything at all, But somehow now er I don't know whether the wheel is turning too fast for him to co keep up with it or whether it's erm oh never mind the erm the industry of the locality, providing the money stakes a I know every business has got to pay for itself and that we we're not, If this quarry was on the down grade and er er somebody had come to us said, look unless you take a drop in your wages er we can't survive that would be a different issue altogether. But it's not, it's flourishing and there's plenty demand can't get enough slates and er yes they say they've got er terrific overheads this and that, er well erm they can put them figures there they change the tune changes every day. They haven't got one and I'll s er say this as I've said everything on the wireless or anything, whatever I've said I'll say to their face, and I can slot the num perhaps they can't prove everything but you know it's there. They can put figures down er you know writing things off erm whatsit twenty percent per year for a machine right in five years' time that machine is scrap. But it's still worth thousands of quid so to them that is there're thousands erm er there's quite a lot of things they built up. And whether the wheel is turning too fast for them to cope with it somewhere along the line they've lost control any and there's still I'm told young many a time a good shop steward and a good management should be a good team together, but erm unless they can work in harmony you know it's no good. [speaker002:] You seem erm a bit puzzled as to the silence of the big group. [Dafydd:] Yes erm when I was talking when they erm they wen they went all silent erm there was not talk about Ffestiniog slate. Whether they're moving the money from Ffestiniog slate into something else like nobody can prove it but that's my estimation. They getting er they training Ffestiniog slate now. Mean I'm putting I'm er if I was in their shoes that's exactly and I think I'm not far from wrong. Training Ffestiniog slate men one of these days they say there is no more Ffestiniog slate and that's it its gone bankrupt and er But I mean that can be easily arranged sort of thing. Erm right er Tom was going on his holidays our Union bloke about a fortnight nor three weeks something like that after the strike situation. Oh they wanted Tom then cos er the deputy I think it was old was it or something like that oh they didn't want to talk to him oh they wanted to talk to Tom and all this and Tom wasn't available. But as soon as Tom came back they didn't want to you know. So they'd been playing cat and mouse game and er it hasn't paid off you know. As they say erm whether they were thinking, Well we will starve them on the gate out and they'll have to come back, that's another situation but erm I never thought we'd have so much support from people and we can still erm I mean I'd rather be back at work but erm that is the situation. I mean said the other day, Why don't you pack up this stupid idea of picketing. I said, Why so that you can just carry on normally? No he said, We have given you my I said yes see we haven't if you adopt that attitude we getting nowhere. I said, I don't want to hassle you but I'm going to give you as much as I can. And I said, You flat out there avoiding it so he said erm you've accuse us of erm taking slates out at night. I said, Yes I stop me and we stopped the waggon half past two in the morning on top of the a load going to erm Holland or somewhere. Oh he said, We've always sent them out at night. I said, Oh no you haven't. I said that is a he didn't deny it er and he said that driver won't come back again because he was hoodwinked into coming up. It was the same waggon yes but it was different driver and er not sure whether they taken the slates themselves there now. So really whatever little slates he's doing it's er costing him hard labour and er just because we can't er resolve the situation. And erm I say he wasn't er he wouldn't go to ACAS, Will and our Glyn from erm they went to ACAS, and they said oh everything's fine in our quarry but they were side stepping the main issue that we'd been sacked and there's the boys are out and majority of. There are those that have gone back and erm er it was all right them shutting their eyes to what the the main the crux of the matter and saying, No no everything's fine in the garden that's just er trying to kid us but er I don't think it will work. Mind you erm there's one or two of the lads that are driving the waggons there. Well there's one lad he driving the waggon er he works for another branch of them it just the haulage whatsit. Well he's like the pig in the middle again, er they've told him well unless you drive the waggon backwards and forwards through the gates, well you're no good to us sort of down the road. Well if he came out on strike with us erm and we won if we won everything we g he'd gain nothing in the end cos he's in another section. So I mean people can't say that we're just like er blind bats batting wheth we'll you'll lose the situation these lads are in. Er we'd like to see them out with us to give the company as much harassment. Erm right there's one of the partners there er he's a bit er I don't know what he's doing he's doing somersaults I think backwards to help the situation but it doesn't. Well there's another lad he's been ill in health he's worked more now than he ever has cos he used to work a few days and lose a few days and he wasn't. Well perhaps they've given him er a green carrot. You know you can't blame them I know it's going against our policies and everything but we erm we're not blind to the situation. Er we are a bit er vexed at the management er they are sitting down to slits er splay s tt split slates. Erm he's had three crates the other day back cash rejects shows you that poor slates are going out. Well they maintain oh no anybody can sli split them. N yes anybody but then there is er a quality and a grade and everything to them. Because they are one of the worst ones if they bought er a Land Rover or any any British make, Oh oh look at the shoddy British, they're crying they're up in arms and they're doing exactly the same thing now. Right they've er they've been preaching against Spanish slates. Well I've seen Spanish slates in the quarry. So when I tackled Mr about it he said, Oh we must maintain our customers. So really they're not er playing the game. And I mean I'm not saying this now to advertise our cause or anything but I think it should be noted down. Right all the machines they've got erm are either German or Italian, say we got dump trucks erm we [recording ends] dump trucks there they know they're over five years old and they're still working. Er they say they're not worked hard well I think they have they've moved er moved a few thousand tons from there and erm. Of course er they have about erm well I'm not sure, about twenty eight or thirty thousand gallons of diesel stocked up there, and of course in them buying it in bulk like that they get it at a cheaper rate. They would fill the tanker from there and we go round the quarry filling the front machines, but erm they say at five or six thousand gallons has been emptied out of that er dump. As they say it would have been all over the village the smell and everything it is wrong. Well I have made a statement to the police and have put it in the police station in a sealed envelope. I was about the last one with a tanker er before er strike I mean they've been there afterwards but er and er a certain tank was empty. Well I marked that certain tank and I put it in in a sealed envelope to the police station and I said I don't know which tank they said whoever's emptied it has done, but I said, If it happens to be that tank then they are lying. If it's another tank I can't prove otherwise but I know one tank er the fourth tank you can't empty it, it's got be syphoned out it comes from the top and er if you went there and just opened the valve you can get a an ounce of diesel out of it. So really you know it leaves them and erm they've got to prove it erm. I'm not out to if they're going to claim on this diesel then that's up to them but I'm not going to have our lads or anybody else blamed for something which definitely does not exist and I shall tell as soon as I erm I meet him to have a chat with him again that he's going along the wrong lines. And I think er well I mean they haven't said any I think the police had a little bit erm suspicious about the story. [speaker002:] You again you mentioned earlier on about erm members of your lodge members of going out erm and talking [Dafydd:] Yes. [speaker002:] to other groups. Erm how did that h that may be quite a sophisticated thing to t t t to do in a way isn't it? [Dafydd:] Yes erm how can I say, we were invited Manchester University er to speak at dinner time, four of us went up and I was nominated as the speaker. [LAUGHTER] I made a bit of a speech and all that and er like a clever dick I went without me glasses [LAUGHTER]. So I had to make the speech best as I could and it went down all right I think. Erm then we had to call on the way back in Deeside er in Mold and there was a miner's support group there. We called and saw them and we had quite a nice reception. There was only about oh about two or three dozen there. And er and because we call him he spoke there and he spoke very well because and erm that's it. People came to us after the meeting, we met this lady and er she was really interested in our cause. She's erm she's a waitress in Chester so it can shows you how much cross section we've got and erm she said her and her boyfriend was coming up to Blaenau to be on the picket line and so on and we were quite friendly with her. Then she said, I've arranged now if you would like to go down and speak in er a meeting in Oxford. We said, Fair enough. Er two of us went down to Oxford we pick her and her boyfriend up in Shrewsbury and we went all down together and erm [clears throat] excuse me. We went down there they'd arranged for us er place to sleep and everything, and we went to this meeting it was quite a big hall I think they were all like Trade Union delegates and that. And erm we spoke to the Chairman during the afternoon in his house and was talking to him and spoke to him about erm an accident he'd had in the quarry. Anyway erm the chap the first speaker was from Silent Night Bedding and they're in dispute for a long time. He spoke and he spoke quite well and that's it. Then the next one spoke was er one of the Yorkshire miners, one of these er that hasn't got a job to back to. He spoke quite well. And then it came turn and er was er speaking quite well when this girl behind us this wee well along side us was thumbs up on him all the time you know he was doing well and that. And erm and he did this sermon so the next bloke he came from Kent somewhere er he was a miner or a miner's delegate and he could really speak you know, arms waving and all that and he was a real preacher. But the thing was nobody was impressed with him he was too much of er he was too good a speaker you know. You have a feeling er let's get it over with with him. So anyway, he erm had his say quite a long story and er the Chairman turned round all of a sudden and he s he couldn't say the Chairman er said call him cos that's what we call him and he said er he said erm would you like to come back to the rostrum again and he said erm you were explaining to me about an accident you had in the quarry in quarry, erm some years back and he said, I'd like you to explain to these people. So said to me yes carry on you're doing fine you know and he went up and er well he didn't know how to start the poor fellow doing smashing and he said, Well erm imagine this hall, he said, this hall we're in now as a big cavern underground. And he said he was working with an old fellow which is getting on in age and he was quite absent minded... and he said, I was about thirty feet from the ground on a ledge er filling er s a hole ready for shot for blasting and the old fellow was about twenty feet higher than him and then he was ss er whatsit another hole and then a at the top of the chamber there's a little hole, he said, like a roof we call it which is a little passage that goes up into the next floor and then we used that as an escape route he didn't have to go far. Well then er quite, so he said erm it was all quiet and I looked up into the darkness and I said that the old fellow had gone and he litten his fuse [LAUGHTER] and there was me there I could see the sparks in the darkness and I was way twenty feet below him and he must have whatsit. So I said I had to make a quick decision either I was going to go up me chain past his whatsit and into the roof, or else go thirty feet down and run right across the chamber into whichever er level they could go to. And I scrambled out of me chain and as I was doing that's the last he remembers. Either a spark had come down from the old fellow's hole up there or him with hobnail boots had trod on er black powder and set it off and his hole went out underneath his feet. It was only a small one he said. And the next thing he know he remembers he's hanging upside down with a half feet around his the chain had slipped 't was round his ankle and he was hanging upside down in the dark twenty feet from the ground. And of course the old fellow's holes went out but they went right over him nev never a scratch on him. And er he was there er two blokes had to get come get chains and get him out of it and all that and here wasn't a scratch on him but erm he was off for about five or six months you know he had ee ee this brain tests and everything, the shock had er he was quite bad for some time. Well, the people were so impressed they, you could have heard a pin drop in that hall, and he really in our Welsh way he put it over proper you know and erm the Chairman made a quite a nice remark in the end he said, Now he said we must remember these two fellows here, I said, They are Welsh and they speak Welsh as their first language they don't speak it for fancy they use it every day and he said I think they've done exceedingly well er to come down here and give us the Because what happen I was sit in the front row and somebody asked me a question and he said, Perhaps er Dafydd there can answer. So I got up then and I spoke to the room you know and we were more or less helping one another out and I thought the Chairman had done well when he said erm they don't speak er Welsh for fancy or anything they use it as every day. And he give us. Well, we've had quite a lot of money from Oxford from different people so you don't know. There's some people send us money and say, I've read in such and such a paper, erm somebody send it from Chesterfield the there their paper there, and they send us ten pounds or something and erm you know erm you never know how the fruits er. Somebody want us to go to Newark, I think that is by Nottingham isn't it, to speak there. And now there was a chap on the phone last night he want to go to Valley and I was trying to tell the bloke who who he between doing pickets and trying to keep count and er. Oh he said, You don't have to send er professional speaker or anything just somebody to have a chat with ya. That'll boost the situation up some. Got to see later today to see what arrangements we can make. [speaker002:] You erm you said that er y you felt that possibly after Christmas that the things would go fl flat a bit. How how do you sort of manage to keep people's spirits up the dynamism? [Dafydd:] I don't know you know it's er... it er we do manage and of course what breaks er people's spirit is I mean we we know we don't get the money we should be having. Well if you've got a big bill or something hanging over your head, that will send you quite erm into the dumps. We try and help them out mm best we can. Of course we haven't got erm money to just er s do what you like. We had a party a party for the kids in Aberystwyth on Saturday, but all the students paid it never cost us a halfpenny. And it was a kiddies party really. Yes they gave us a drink of beer and that erm and that was entirely up to them and erm. And I mean there are lots of things now er which er how can I say I never had much interest before erm never thought th that they when you've seen the help in hand they've dished out erm, S D P, the erm oh the Council of Churches which you know never There are all sorts of erm I tell you another people and erm I sha the Gay and Lesbian Society you know, people take them er lightly but er it makes you sit up and and think now. And we had a really nice letter and good donation from them you know. So everybody that reaches out a helping hand. Naturally Mrs Thatcher doesn't reach out a helping hand cos this this is right in her er cricket pitch. No without being erm we get them from medical sides you name them they come and erm oh it's fantastic. But I never thought I'd er be doing this type of job t'other day er. No as I say I haven't got much to lose or anything but I think it's a trade that is worth protecting and er you know it's not a trade er it's a living for the people innit? And should be a decent living erm... yes but surely with all the demand there is today for slate and that. [speaker002:] You you've indicated that the work that you've been involved in has changed you in some respects i i it certainly m m made you m m more aware of of other other other people and the way they're prepared to help. Do you think that's had an effect on your your mates as well? [Dafydd:] Yes erm I don't know if I mentioned you a question properly er right there were young lads in there they be young lads in that lodge do this and they jump up and they make a decision quickly. But you got to start putting all the works in motion oh yes what is the end product or what is the outcome of this and that. And I've been a few years on the Council now and when I first went on the Council I was going to move mountains and make oh big Taj Mahals everywhere, but when you get on these things you have a rude awakening, it doesn't work out that way and it works out exactly the same in this erm. You can have one quick move and if it's a false one well er you made a bad mistake and you've gone back about er whatsit and I think 's done exactly the same here he's sacked us and he's put himself in er in er queer corner s like a game of draughts you know and he's trying all roads to come out of it. Fair enough, well if I can help him in any way by talking to him, it's not a case of who wins and who loses, we all lose. I'm quite prepared to do it. And er I've told Tom and the Union bloke who's said, Yes if you can talk to anybody member of the family to bring anything any consolation, do it. So I'm not creeping back for my job but anything erm it's not that and erm But the lads in the lodge sometimes you've got to and er I've got a bit of er well a speery voice you know rough so [LAUGHTER] sometimes I get a little bit of control on them and erm also as I said about these chaps that are working, erm we're not blind, we know what's happening and we've got sympathy even with them. And we don't want, another thing, we don't want to do now is erm get man against man. You see if we can split this Union in two, that's exactly what the management wants. Well we're playing right into their hands. Though we're not in agreement to what's happened, we got to be very careful because you see what's happened to the coal er dispute. And er if I can help it I've got to erm do me best to stop that happening. [speaker002:] Is that is that level of of un understanding er sort of part general within within the mine? [Dafydd:] No not you get different statements different erm I wouldn't like to repeat some of them right, but if them lads sat down and studied it erm same as I've said now and they say, Well yes aye. If we quarrel if we have a good punch up and all that between us and them that would suit the other side right down to the ground. So we're losing. So really we've got to erm give in right in our estimation they were wrong. Erm and I've said further on that erm some could have afford to stay out but that's they we're not all built the same and erm we must avoid that at all cost. And I suppose it's up to us like the erm the old stagers to we should know better and I think Tom the Union chap, he's he can see that and he wants to avoid it cos he's got to speak to the lot of them? [speaker002:] You've you've made it clear with him that you discriminate quite clearly between the people that go back to work because they've got children or they've got l lot of finan and they've got to do a lot of financial obligations and those who who don't. Would you say that is true? [Dafydd:] No there are some er lads gone back to work yes they got children they got mortgages we realize that. There are some gone back to work they haven't got all that heavy obligations but there are lads on the line which have got very heavy complications and children and they have stuck it out you know. So it all depends how you different people different personalities and that and erm right though I don't agree with them at all what they've done, erm as I said, If I don't speak or if we don't whatsit we going to ruin the whole thing we're fighting for. [speaker002:] Would you say that that the that the experience of the N U M has been a very important one f f for you in that respect? [Dafydd:] Oh yes very much so and we've been these er lots secretaries and presidents and all miners and that they've been coming up you know and er you had a chat with them and they put us don't let this happen, don't let that happen, and make sure that erm you know people don't suffer and er oh it's been quite a vast experience for us yeah. And they still keep on sending not just one flash in the pan you know. They still know that we need that help. Now erm they've been quite good to us. As I said I don't like to ment to pick people out because it sounds as if the others are not doing. We've had people we had one chap an old mate of mine he give us fifty P well he's on the dole there. You know er you felt whatsit. But that's it the system isn't but they send us a donation which they'd had for appearing on B B C or something. Now erm I think it is and he rang me up and asked me would the strike still be on in the middle of er February. Well I said I can't say I wish it was over tomorrow. But if it was over tomorrow I said it's still left our lads in quite er hole financially, and we shall still need that. The help won't stop like overnight, we must keep going. I said in that case we will make you a concert in mid January and I think he said are coming with them. Now er they were having a concert and I think was the principal part and when he went to have his fee he said, Oh no you can send it to the Blaenau Ffestiniog. So I think writing to John to thank him. I mean I don't like to pick people out there's quite a lot erm er Dr from South Wales he lives here, well he was born and bred here. We had a nickname for him, they call him. Erm won't mind that. He's been quite good to us and er they sing on the street for us. Erm act I could go through that book and erm it's never ending. Yeah. [speaker002:] Well Dav Dafydd thank you very much. [Dafydd:] [LAUGHTER] Okay. [] [recording ends]

[speaker001:] really Miss. Well I Oh I'll tell you I've got er a a photo a girl. a girl. And she knew I didn't care for school. That I wanted to come from school but they wouldn't all ow me to come from school because me father had signed for four years you see. And this was two years. [speaker002:] And he owned a shop did he? [speaker001:] Mr 's Mr, yes. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I had a letter from the daughter yesterday. From America. And erm then of course she told me about this so my mother went to see him. And you know we arranged for that, but I had a bit of a job to come from school. To leave after two years. You know but we man I I got out at any rate. [speaker002:] How how old were you then Miss? [speaker001:] Fifteen and a half. And then my erm my mother saw him and then I went to see him and Then I started the last week in July with him after the school closed. And then I was with him for five years till nineteen The same week, nineteen thirty, I took over the business from him in Valley. But I was in Holyhead. He had a shop in Holyhead and in Valley. [speaker002:] Why did you want to leave school? [speaker001:] I dunno. I wanted to go work. You know. Wasn't interested in sc Well I mean interest I suppose But I think what it was to start with I I missed the first term, you know after passing for the county, I missed the first term. We had diphtheria see. I had it first. And we must have caught it from there. [LAUGHTER] Because er my mother was fair and she must have carried it or something and then I I'd just started I think a week of two or three weeks and my sister got it and the boys never got it. So I suppose if you don't get the first term in in county school, they don't bother with you. You you miss the counting don't you because it was different to a school like in the Valley school. And then er I suppose the interest Well I did well there two year really. I mean I saw a came and I started with him and I liked it. And I kept to it. And then they were giving up and going to America, they were going They had a sister. Mrs had a sister and er a brother. And his sister was in Texas and the brother was in Philadelphia. So they were joining them, they came over The Texas sister came over for twelve months and they must have persuaded them to go back or something. So they went. So I didn't know anything about it you know, till somebody asked me Well asked me really, Mr 's going away isn't he? I said, No I don't think so, I said, I haven't heard. Oh he is, he's going to America, they said to me, you see, somebody, one of the customers I suppose. Ooh, I said, I haven't heard. So next morning I approached him. I said,, I said, I heard last night, I said, that you're going to America, is it true. Oh yes, he said, like that. But we weren't going to tell you anything jut yet. We had something else in mind for you. So that's it. I knew then they were going. So when they did say they were definitely going, he said, what he you see, he wanted me to take the Valley shop over. And of course he came to see my father, and my father thought I was a bit young. [speaker002:] H how how old [speaker001:] Fifteen and a half Er well no I was nineteen and a half then you see, five years isn't it. And he thought I was a bit young. Well I hadn't got a chance to. So er Mr, he told my father, Oh no, she'll be able to do it all right. She's sure to get on, Mr, he said like that. I remember him saying this. He said, You're su She's sure to get on. So my father didn't know what to do, because he'd only just started on his own, so he was tight for money as well wasn't he. And of course in the old days, they didn't have money like they have now. And you couldn't get any money in the old days. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No the same as you can now. Well they get money now a and somebody else had got these days. So erm Still so he said to me, What'll do? Well, I said, I'll give it a chance, I said, and if it doesn't pay, Cos he was better off than I was because he had the two shops. If he couldn't get rid of fruit here, he could get it in Holy rid of it in Holyhead because the country place weren't so fond of fruit in them days as the English people you know. Welsh people didn't sort of eat fruit like the the English you know. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] No. The not the same. And of course they have gardens and then they have apple trees and things like that. Well, I said, I'll give it a chance. Well so I went and then they came on the Friday night it must have been the twenty twenty fifth of July ninete nineteen thirty. They came the Friday night to go for the midnight mail you know the one that comes to meet the boat. Or the boat meet meets the boat. S so they came with the keys for me, the shop keys, and to say goodbye to us. And then I opened up on Saturday morning, first thing and there I was standing in the shop. this is all mine now. And it's funny how you get used to a thing. You're afraid of doing this and afraid of going into this and afraid of going into that thinking it's not yours. Isn't it? But I soon got into it. So that's the way it started for me. So I carried on and carried on and of course, the travellers I knew l most of the travellers I knew. A lot of them I Some I was told not to bother with. By him. I knew myself. I had a lot of trouble with them in Holyhead. [LAUGHTER] You know. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah, some of them. Some of the wholesalers you know. Especially the fruiterers. Short weight and things like that. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] So he told me to keep clear of them. Just to go to so and so. So that's what I did. Then I found my way, you know, you you learn as you go along really don't you, a lot. And of course I carried on, carried on. Oh we used to do very well there. Really. And we used to have a very good erm fruit and confectionery business. And cigarettes you know, that sort of thing. Used to do well with cigarettes. And of course the firms used to call themselves you know, the I used to but direct, not from the wholesaler. C er cigarettes and things like that. [speaker002:] Was that er, [speaker001:] Wills, Players, and er Craven A isn't it. And erm what were the others? Er Benson and Hedges isn't it. We used to deal direct from all those. So It was worth it for the w for the when the war came. It was worth it because you had a good erm quota from them. During they were a We were put on quotas with everything. And when I first went to the business, they didn't have fruit like they have now, everyday you know. And round the year. Oranges only came in in October for Christmas. [speaker002:] October? [speaker001:] Yeah. Er they started coming in the Christmas oranges. You wouldn't see perhaps and orange during the Summer. But now you can get them from different places, but then they were Spanish. Spanish oranges. And the Jaffa oranges and things like that. And we used to get a lot of Californian fruit. Apples and things like that., Oregons and another sort of. And a lovely Jonathan they had too. Cali Californian fruit is lovely fruit you know. [speaker002:] Is it? [speaker001:] Mm. Beautiful. Nicer than any really. But we don't get that now, they get South African's now don't they and they get Italians and French and there's all sorts of things but they're not as nice as the Californian fruit. So that's they way I started and then of course, when the war came in nineteen thirty nine isn't it? Well we used to er get Jersey potatoes and things like that and then new potatoes. Everything like that, vegetables and everything like that. And when the war came you see we were rationed for nearly everything. So the more you bought, during the time you were in business, the m more quota you got you see, according to what you'd been buying. And of course some you used to have points to get sweets and things like that. And I carried a very very big stock of sweets because there was such a variety. And everybody, you had to keep to suit every customer if you wanted to make a business. You had to do that. Or do without isn't it you know, you had to stock for the sake of getting the business. Then between that and I was never short of sweets, during the war. I er kept going. And they were on points. And I remember being called to Caernarfon once, during the time, asking me why did I have such a lot of surplus of points. You see, of course, some people didn't take use them all, they say, oh you might as well keep them. Then other people couldn't get enough again you see, so if they were giving you er points well naturally you had the sweets to give them, you're not diddling anybody or anything like that. You were having points for them. And er I was called there so I told them. I said, we is a family, I said, we're a big family, I said, We don't eat sweets, I said, Well we've got those I said, it's no use throwing them, we just put them in. And it nothing happened. You know, but they were very keen on er with the points. And then rations. And that's how I started to go into grocery, because you couldn't get fruit. And during the war years, like s perhaps we were allocated a according to what we were. If we were a fruiterer. we had more more quote like er wh what did they call them? Points was it? Or Quota at any rate you know. To No units they called them. Units, two units, four units or six units whatever according to your trade and where you were. Well they's a allocated me as a grocer you see and the fruiterer I dealt with the, the wholesaler, the I dealt most of with in was He said to me, you're not getting enough for what you are, he said to me. Well no, I said, I don't know why. Well they've allocated you as a grocer, he said, but you're not a grocer. Only I just turned into grocery because you couldn't get fruit, when you want Well you had a bit but not much. You couldn't keep going without something isn't it so. They had a committee somewhere, I think in Caernarfon I think they had their committee. And he brought this up about the units I had and he he rang me up on the Friday night isn't it? This was for tomatoes I think the quota of tomatoes. I couldn't understand them neither really. Because, they could afford to give me my back back ration and yet, they said they were short of things. Well at any rate he gave me a ring about erm sometime about four o'clock I think. He said they've changed your units, and he said there's an allocation a back allocation for you of forty baskets of tomatoes he said to me. I don't know if you want them, he said to me like that you see. Well, I said, I'll have them, I'll chance them, I said like that to him. I'll have them, I said like that. Well, he said, I'm putting them on the train and they'll be in Valley on the seven o'clock train for you On Friday night this was. Right, I said like that. So the porter in the Valley station here came, brought them on the hand cart he had. Not the lorry. And he brought me these forty baskets of tomatoes this Friday night. Right, I said, I'll clear the window, I said, I'll put them all in the window. Because they were perishable goods, it was no use keeping them you see. And there was twelve pounds in each basket. Clear them all except six baskets on Saturday. [speaker002:] Good heavens. [speaker001:] Yeah. But mind you I used to give them six, whatever they wanted you know. And of course there was market in Holyhead and people passing and things like that in it. And I cleared the lot except six baskets and they were all in good condition, so I was glad of these six baskets really because it helped you to give them one or two more. Because you'd only get half a pound perhaps and perhaps you'd only get perhaps, this unit'd only get two, According to what came into the country, or what was on the market. And then perhaps the next u erm lot that came, perhaps you'd get six to a unit, so you had twelve baskets, That's the way they used to work them. [speaker002:] I see. [speaker001:] And the same with oranges. I remember getting one lot of oranges though that half of them were bad. So we had a lot of waste on them. And then of course the boats were sunk during the war. And then every boat that came in, it depended how many cases of oranges or whatever it was apples or whatever it. But I remember one time one week, I had fifty cases of oranges in. Big ones, you know, three three sectioned er boxes. Not er like they bring them in these cardboard boxes you know, wooden boxes. Remember they used to used they used to get these, the farmers used to ask for these boxes because they made er hen's nests, you know that type you know where they Oh they were good boxes. But I think fruit was better in them than in these bo cardboard boxes too. But er I w I had fifty of them. Well I'd no room in this shop, there was no erm anywhere to store them expect the man just here see, where the g where they used to keep his car. Just there. [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] Mm. For the storage. So I said, My brother was in the army then and my father was there on his own, so I asked him, I said, Can we put them in the workshop? I said like that. And he said, Yes, he said like that. So they brought them down here and they had fifty cases of oranges in here. In the not this one, the old workshop. And I used to take them as I wanted them and I cleared the lot. I didn't get any waste, they were in lovely c condition. But mind you they went quicker then because they were hard to get. You know, people And I didn't, well you were suppose Well we did mark the book at perhaps a p a pound to a book you know, like they were in those days. But of course with them coming like that and perishable goods, we let them go as they wanted them, to clear the lot like that. And perhaps we wouldn't see an orange for a fortnight, three weeks perhaps. Perhaps a month. We wouldn't get one. And the same with all fruit er they were rationed like that. But we managed. And then the grocery built up and built up like everybody. But they used to ask me for things but I thought there were enough s erm shops here really. Because this corner shop was here. Then the Co-op was where I was this one. And then further on there was a little shop like this one, they were grocers. Then over the line again there was another shop where Mr A P Jones Do you know, the retired schoolmaster that used to be in Valley, he lives now. There was a shop there. And was there a shop No I don't think there was a shop anywhere on this road? And then I thought to myself. They were on Oh and there was the er where the Midland Bank is, there was a cafe there and they sold odd things you know. there was enough there and people used to tell me used to ask for things. Well, I said, there's plenty of shops here selling that. I said, I'll Well they sell fruit and they sell this and they Well, I said, the I i that's my trade I said, the fruit and the sweets like you know more. But oh I don't and then of course the war came didn't it. So that changed me and after that it went from you know, higher and higher all the time, the more and we used to get. We have used to quite c quite a lot of the coming round here. and that way. Oh we used to get a lot of them. And er when I first came to the shop, the mo m A lot of them used to come by train and you know taxis or meeting and at the station and and away from Holyhead they used to stop by the shop for fruit. And I don't know what it was but they all seemed to say the same, the visitors, they all used to say, you've got lovely fruit here. Well, I said, it's only the same as everywhere else. but yours is much nicer. But I think the building you see, was a warmer place in the Summer. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] You see. Corrugated and wood. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Draws the heat doesn't it? [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] And I think it sort of sort of ripened the fruit better than if it was in a cool shop. I used to but mine under-ripe you know. All my fruit. [speaker002:] Did you? [speaker001:] Yeah. Because of that. [speaker002:] But i It's obvious that you've always y gone in for quite stylish displays of your fruit too haven't you? [speaker001:] Oh yes, yes I I I I we us always used to do that. We had baskets, special baskets for it. And I kept it the same and that's When we bought this in nineteen fifty four, there was a lot of alterations to be done. To suit me you s Yes. To suit me. Because, you remember that er picture o you saw with the fruit in? [speaker002:] Behind the counter? [speaker001:] Yes, well in well I've got some photos of this to be inside somewhere. I'll try and find them sometime for you to see sometime. But this used to be a bicycle shop, the first world war. This this one. [speaker002:] The w the corrugated iron one? [speaker001:] Th th Yes that's what That's why it's got a window like that you see. [speaker002:] I see. [speaker001:] And then it's the window's high from the f floor. And I had to get a box and many a time I've fallen on my back from that so Cos somebody had moved [LAUGHTER] the boxes I think []. I've had a lot of falls in my time. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] . And then that was erm a cobbler's place. [speaker002:] That's next door? [speaker001:] Yes, just a little place and that's where Mr started in that one and then he moved into there when that went empty. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] That's h how he started there. And the bungalow's next door isn't it. The that came after. And er I dunno it went from that and and I'm sorry I I had to leave it really.. I enjoyed it. I feel sometimes I could go back. you know, but things are different they say, now. [speaker002:] Why did you er did you leave the business in the end? [speaker001:] Well because of my mother see, I came home to my mother. Because my brother was here, and he couldn't go out with mother being here old. You see my mother was eighty nine when she died. And then she couldn't cope with going out to the people there. And of course I was the only one that was single. And er really I'd Well I mean, I had my pleasure in the shop. it was a pleasure to I liked it. But I couldn't let my mother be here, and then it was more for my brother because he had a wife and he it was more for him to be working than er for me really, cos I come to pension age then you see. When I was leaving for my mother. I was sixty one you see when I left the shop. And then after that but er many a time I wish I was back you know. But my mother came first isn't it and it was easier for me. To come home than for anybody else. So that's why I came home, not that I wanted to come you know, to give it up. And then we And my brother wouldn't carry it on. I had my brother with me and his niece and they wouldn't carry on. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] No. He wasn't keep on being inside you see, it's alright going out. With a van. [LAUGHTER]. So he wasn't keen on being inside so he wouldn't carry on. Well he had a job to go to in the council too really. Because he was looking after the council offices. And then he had a job, they had a job for him you know, and of course I he didn't want to leave me, Well I said, You can go, I said, it's alright if I'm going to sell, I said, that would be alright. And but he didn't leave until after I'd sold you know. [speaker002:] What er encouraged you to move from your first shop t t t t t t t to Valley Stores? [speaker001:] Well because I hadn't got the place to keep things, that's why. It wasn't suitable for bacon, butter, Cos it a hot place you see, and there was no room for putting any fridges or any Well I did have an ice-cream fridge there. Eventually, like, when we had ele electricity. We didn't get that then till nineteen fifty. [speaker002:] Didn't you? [speaker001:] We had lamps you know. Erm Aladdin lamps we had erm lighting up the place. [speaker002:] Hanging from the roof? [speaker001:] Yes. From the roof, yeah. So there wasn't er the space for storage really. And er of course the co-op went. Closed. And of course it was up for sale so I don't know who said, Are you going to try? Ooh I don't know, I said, like that because I was in a g in a good spot there you know, it was a very good spot. I was there If I'd have been there to July, that year that I moved there, I would have been there twenty five years, on that road. But of course it went, you see with the traffic and things like that I'd perhaps it wouldn't have been s quite so handy for me because I'd no parking room there because there was a big back to there. You know parking space. And er so Mr was where Mr is now, then. So we asked him if he'd come to the sale just and I told my father, cos my father wasn't keen you know. Er I told him I was going to try for the Co-op. Well you're very silly, he said to me, trying. Well I said, I'm going, I said, I'm going to give it a try. I said, But I won't pay more than I can afford to pay for it. So we went, it was on a Friday afternoon I think, in June. I don't remember the date. And er we went in, there were quite a crowd there you know. And er there was four I think, there was a a Mr from Holyhead, and there was a Mr he he lived in Bangor but he was running the ironmongers that was by the station in the old days. There was an ironmongers shop by the station, in the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And he was from Bangor. Erm what was the name of the place in Bangor. He was there. And I can't remember who the other was that was there. there was four of us and we started bidding and somebody in the crowd started bidding four thousand. Everybody went everybody went like there nobody saying a thing. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So of course I g I was not bidding myself, Mr went to the auctioneer, Mr, he's dead. Mr now. And er he went to him so he went to speak to this woman about the thing and she was member of the Co-op see. And I suppose she had money there, must have been. It was a sort of like a I don't know what i whether it was erm some sort of a private or it belonged to this Manchester Co-op or something I think it was. There were memberships I suppose that would keep it. Oh at any rate, he they started rebidding and then of course it went and went and it fell and then this Mr gave up and whoever the other one was, Don't remember who he was. And er somebody asked him why he'd stopped bidding, Well, he said, I could see there was nobody in my line trying for it. When he saw who was trying you see. And then this Mr he had a grocery shop in Holyhead. But he wanted the living place more than he wanted the shop. I knew this Mr, William. He was friendly with my erm uncle they'd b both been in starting when they started in business. So he stopped and then it fell, and it fell short of the hundred pound they wanted. They had a reserve price on it. So we paid that because they wanted and then we had to pay for stock. There wasn't much stock there though. All rubbish, we had to throw it. But I paid about four hundred for it Oh but you had to if you wanted it. So er that's the way I er had it and s and somebody else asked Mr why did he stop bidding? Oh, he said, if we had carried on it would have been dear for somebody. But it fell for one one thousand five hundred then in nineteen fifty four. So it wasn't a bad price really, but I was able to pay for it. That was the main thing. You know, I didn't want to. The auctioneer came to me, Oh I suppose you'll want to borrow some money now. I said, No thank you. I said, Everything's all arranged. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Was that er would that have been considered unusual to have had the money to pay that amount in those days? [speaker001:] No I don't think so, no. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Well er it would in a way because you'd have to pay interest on what you were borrowing wouldn't you? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Oh yes you have to pay now a mortgage won't you. You have to pay interest on what you b you borrow now. So it was better for me if I was able to pay. I was free then, I could do you know. And then I came home after the sale. I told my father. I teased him for a bit that I didn't get it, it went for so much. And he said to me, Er, and then I said, No, I said, we've been lucky. I said about it. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And I told him all about it. He was glad in the end too. There was nobody more glad than him really but I suppose he thought I'd go into debt or something but I d wouldn't do that. I'd rather be without. Oh and the er er one of the Co-op members, he was a big noise there I think, I don't know if he was the chairman of the committee or what. But he s he met me on the road one day and he said to me, Miss, it would pay you to give a decent price for it, he said to me. Oh why? I said. Well to keep somebody else from coming out. I said, It makes no difference to me, I said. I'll only bid as far as I can pay Mr. His name was Mr. Mr I said like that. And if it goes more than that, I said, it can go, I said. It makes no d difference to me. I said, It's up to you to make your business. You don't want to keep anybody else er er space for everybody if they want to try. It's er up to you, I said, you've to make your business. And er I don't know what he said after, I don't know. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] But I think Oh he was a all nice and everything er you know. But you see, the more money they had, the more they had to share I suppose with M [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I don't know. We to my w way of thinking like that isn't it. I suppose they was. [break in recording] he owned the place you know, the It was a good place. So we were lucky and then we opened up on January the fourth nineteen fifty five. On the the day of my birthday. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Mm. When I was forty five. Getting old. [LAUGHTER] Why worry isn't it. It's just how you feel. And er w Of course with that one, I owned the ground. In the old place but I didn't own the shop. So nobody could I kept that shop, I paid the rent on the shop for twelve months, I kept it closed for twelve months, to get that place going. You know to get the people used to coming. Not that it would have made any difference because I mean, people used to go into shops on that side, which never came up our way and the same with us, coming up there and not going that way isn't it. So We managed and we opened up see how quick they came. They soon got into it though. [speaker002:] Did they? [speaker001:] Y oh yes. Well I suppose they'd have been used to going there before you see. And near the Post Office, opposite the Post Office, so they were But the only thing I didn't like there was the houses opposite me [LAUGHTER] They all seemed to be in their windows watching everything []. That's the only thing because n the other place you see, it's quite open. Oh you can't see it can you. I i across the road you see, er There was a road er opposite. That it was very nice there too on the main road. But we soon got used to the place. You had your work and then you just don't didn't bother. But er you could see them [LAUGHTER] [] you know. We were a bit from the road and then you see a bit higher. And then of course, we carried on from there and we just I was going to do a lot of things you know. But I never got to do them. If ever I'd lost my mother, Of course, we were lucky we had our father and mother. You know you know some people they lose them a bit young don't they. When they're young and they've got the chance. But we had our father and mother for years. Actually for that. Er and then er I was going to make a v nice flat and I was going to build a warehouse and things to [LAUGHTER] But I didn't got to do it []. I came home. And had to settle home. Don't know if there's anything else you want to know. [speaker002:] You would have liked to have extended the business a little m more then, would you? [speaker001:] Oh well yes, I'd carry on Oh mind you, we stocked everything then. We had everything. Oonly the the only thing was that you hadn't got enough room to display everything that you could stock, isn't it. You know what I mean. They had to ask if they wanted. But it didn't matter what they asked for they had, we had it. Because they used to say, Oh go to so and so's you're sure to get it. [LAUGHTER] You know and word goes round. I never advertised you know. Never advertised. My own advertising was giving them the the service and the quality. And the attention. But I ne erm advertised in papers, anything like that. [speaker002:] So if someone w w w wanted something s specially, [speaker001:] Yeah? [speaker002:] you would order it for them? [speaker001:] Yes Yes. If they wanted And during the Summer months, we had the same people coming every year. Since a some of them c came when I was with Mr. And they kept coming and coming to me just the same. And when I was there and they used to send their orders they used to come holiday times, some people had houses in and. They used to send me their orders perhaps three weeks before they were coming, either for us to deliver or for us to erm have them ready for them to collect on their way up. Some used to stay in farms and things like that. And they used to send orders isn't it It was nothing to see fifty items on an order. isn't it, different things. And we were always able to supply them. W Yeah. And they used to say, some of them used to say er, If there's anything you can't get, if you haven you can't get for us or haven't got, er just let us know and we'll bring it with us. But they didn't have to. We always had them. And er my father used to do the garden then. We used to have a lot of lettuce and of course Summer Summertime, we didn't see so many because everybody had a garden here and everybody er you know, grew lettuce. And I remember one year, we'd had some Webbs Curly lettuce and I was We had a good crop and I remember one lady who stayed in and she come used to come Well practically every other days for six of these. And they were like cabbage. Oh they were lovely too, that year. They were nice. And we hadn't got any more of those nice lettuce you know. Crisp nice and crisp they were, lovely lettuce. And er we used to try and them in the garden just to get the odd one or two for somebody you know. Oh yes we had a we had a lovely time. They were nice though. Nice people. We had very good customers really. They were. And a lot of them have gone now you know, passed away. A lot of the old ones. And we used to have one gentleman come in from the country. And he's g he's dead now though. And he used to come regular every Friday. When this was with Mr. And I was there. And he wouldn't allow anybody else t anybody to serve him except Mrs. I couldn't serve him. Cos I was only young yet. He obviously though I didn't know what to. [LAUGHTER] Well and he used to come regular every Friday afternoon, and he used to go the s a ch lower down you know, after you pass the police station on the left there, there used to be a butcher's place there. Lovely lovely meat they had too. And er he used to go there for meat but he used to buy two lots, one for his o his own place and one for the farm he had you see. For the one that was in the farm. He used to buy two lots of things. So if he three apples of apples, he'd have two lots like that. And of course this Friday, one Friday, Mrs said to me said, If Mr comes, tell him I'm not here. She said to me. I knew I was telling a lie. I'm sure he could see on my face. I'll stay in the back she said. So she stayed in the back. So Mr came in, he said, Is Mrs in? I'm sorry I said, she hasn't come. Expecting her any minute. And then of course, he allowed me to serve him [LAUGHTER] then []. And then after that, he never asked [LAUGHTER] for her []. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] I suppose he thought I didn't know the different you see. But that's one thing I did, I used to tell the girls I said, Give them decent things, I said like that. If you want them to come back, I said. I'd rather take the loss myself than for people to get you know rotten stuff. Or to bring anything back. But some don't bother do they? You know I get things now, I just have to throw them some of them. But er at any rate, we managed and he never asked after that. Whoever was there served him then. It's funny how you get into A lot of people are like that. In business Till they get to know and things like that. some nice customers too. but the only thing was, sometimes you know, the the visitors in the mornings they used to come out, the visitors. During the Summer. Some people, Oh these visitors and people used to say to me, Well now look, I said like that, visitors, I said like that, there's enough stuff for everybody. We cater for them, I said, We buy extra. For visitors and they want things that the locals don't want, I said. They buy things that the local people don't want. And I said, another thing, I said, some visitors I get here, I said, they buy more from me in a month than some of the locals buy in a week.... More er and more in a month some of them than the others did in a year. And those were the ones that grumbled. Of course it's extra isn't it you see when you think of it. You buy, you're not doing the locals they we they weren't going short of anything. And if you had your regulars and things were in short supply, you wouldn't put those on the shelves, you'd keep them back for when they came in. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You know. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] That's the way I used to do it at any rate. [speaker002:] Well what sort of proportion would you say, of your trade was purely visitors? [speaker001:] Well... what I used to always say it was pretty steady all the year round. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] On the average. You do get a bit extra because you get passers by in Summer don't [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You know, stop for things. You see, the locals have their own things in the garden in Summer. Their potatoes and their vegetables and well fruits and apples, plums things like that isn't it. If they want. And then they used to keep you in the Winter more or less and the visitors making up So it was s a steady trade all round. I used to think mine was pretty steady all the year round. If you missed your k certain things, you were gaining by the visitors. Stuff that they wanted you know like the erm sugar and the tea and things like that. But other things, they had in the garden like vegetables and like gooseberries, things like you know, the fruit.. I I mine was pretty steady. I c you know. Of course you do make extra, holiday time. Like you you have Easter eggs don't you, and you have Christmas goods. We used to run a Christmas Club as well. And then I used to bank I used to post put that in the post office in a separate account, I didn't use it you see. I used to keep that separate see t till Christmas time. I never used it in the like people put it in the till. I never did that. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] No I kept it on its own. Because it wasn't mine till they had had the stuff. You know at Christmas and then I I managed to save a bit in the Post Office with that. For my old age. [LAUGHTER] you do just do these things. You've got to work for yourself really haven't you. You can't expect people to tell you this, tell you that. You've got to according to what you think. [speaker002:] Is that is that o o one of the reasons that you went into business in the first place? In order to be independent? [speaker001:] Well I don't know. Er you know when we were children wasn't it. People used to ask they do with their children no don't they, What are you going to do when you grow up. I said, Shop owners. Well you couldn't go nursing till you were about eighteen or nineteen or something, if not more. In those days. Isn't it. My sister again, she was asked. Oh she was going to be a, that's what she said. Well she was. Well she went nursing again. Quite the opposite to what she was going to go. But she stayed in school four years you know. She did. [speaker002:] Did she? [speaker001:] Yeah. But er she went nursing, and she's still nursing. She does two days in Nursing Home in Bangor. And er she Oh I was going to go Well I like the shop so much I wasn't going to change. I liked it. And meeting people and that's what I like too. I liked serving people. [speaker002:] Did you? [speaker001:] Yeah. I used to I used to love being by the counter. Not that I'm one for erm like talking like some people do and wanting this and er you know. But I liked serving and I liked to feel that I was able to have sold somebody something. And not to go out w empty handed. It was you know, I did like that. I enjoyed serving better than anything. I I I had to do the other jobs as I know, but I used to like serving people because I used to like meeting people and sort of study people. You know their characters and things like that. And knowing how to please them. That's what I one thing I liked. Was able to please a customer. Which touchwood, I think I managed. I don't think I turned anybody away I don't think. [speaker002:] What do you w w w what would be the im important ways that you would think you used in order t t t to please them? [speaker001:] Oh well I suppose, put all your attention to their needs isn't it. You see, you go into some shops, you se I'm serving you. You'll see them talking to somebody else somewhere else and you're serving this person. Well that's wrong, to me. If you're er serving this lady or gentleman whoever it is, you should put your whole mind with this person, not er wait for them to ask what they want, and talk with somebody else like that, and that's done i in a lot of these shops. Well they used to but it's self service isn't it and that's a another thing. I couldn't join. No no erm Spar no what was it? Mace? Nothing like that. I didn't join any of them, I kept independent the whole time I was there. Because after all they were having the cream of the shop people and some of them found out that the hard way. And I said oh it's so and so that gets all the profit. I know, I said, I haven't joined them, because er they e they tell you what to sell everything. Well you see now, say tea Say for instance it was a shilling. Well perhaps if you bought it direct yourself, you'd perhaps get fourpence on it. I'm not saying it was fourpence but perhaps you'd get fourpence. Well if you bought it through that Mace, they tell you to sell and you'd only get on it. So I didn't join any of them I kept independent while I could at any rate and then. [speaker002:] So you maintained a direct link between you and the manufacturer or or the distributor. [speaker001:] Yes more of them yes. We had a wholesalers of course we had to get wholesalers for some things. More or less, but I used to buy my bacon from 's. I used to get that direct from them. And then I used to get from we used to get our sausage and things like that. Pies and then frozen stuff, Bird's Eye, we used to deal with. came there weren't many then when I was there, there's more now frozen stuff. And then er Cadburys all them. The main all the biscuit firms we used to deal with. And how many biscuit firms came and we still bought from every one of them. But they've all got their good lines you see. See Jacobs were noted for their crackers, more than anybody else's. So between them all we were able to b buy the best sellers from you know. Christmas cakes. I was looking the other day, when I was looking for some of these things. The price of Christmas cakes in the old days. Twelve and six, the cheapest, the smallest. Honestly, now it's price they are now. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And they were nicer then than now. They were lovely. [speaker002:] W wasn't there a an enormous amount of erm work involved? In ordering all this stuff? [speaker001:] Well I don't know. E w It never worried me. I knew what I had and I knew what I wanted. And it's funny things some of these travellers Oh you get some awful travellers you know, Southern some of them. They're pushing stuff to you. And er they used to say, Don't you want to go and see what you've got? I said, No, I said, I know what I've got. I know what I want. They'd go, I've never seen anybody like you. [LAUGHTER] They always seemed to want to go and look or what they haven't but I never used to do that. I was ready f if a traveller came in, I'd be ready for him. I knew what I had. See if I was fetching anything or anything like that Oh we had an awfu we we had a big stock er big stock you know. But we used to turn it over, not like they push it in front, new stuff in front of old, we never had that, we never did that. We always used to have the old ones out. And before Easter, after Christmas, I used to start buying extra of things that kept. Ready for the season so that I wouldn't have to buy a lot of things when you were busy. I'd have them in stock ready. And that's what we used to do. And er then there was a traveller used to say, Oh you're not afraid of buying. Well I said, If I don't buy, I don't get a chance of selling. [LAUGHTER] You know. And sometimes you used to things had gone up, you were lucky in that way. Other times, perhaps things had come down, but not so much then. If things were dear, not by so much. [LAUGHTER] But if they were cheap, that's the time to buy. You h you learn these things as you go along. But we had some there were some good travellers then though. In in the old the old travellers. They were good. Used to deal with erm... er fruits Well they were er I suppose. Liverpool he used to come. As I was saying we didn't get we were buying in October ready for Christmas, buying them in. And this Mr he was, he used to c he well he was collec calling f with Mr and he kept calling with me the same so I used to order my bulk in October to come in for Christmas goods. And he used to come regular. He used to come in Oct October and he used to drop off the ten o'clock train here. He came by train. And then he used to have the bus on from here to Holyhead to see the other people in Holyhead. Yeah. And we [speaker002:] Did he? [speaker001:] Mm. And you know I don't know if they're still in Caernarfon are they? Daniel and son are they? [speaker002:] No I don't think so? [speaker001:] No have they gone. Well they used to call too. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] They used to come round with cheap stuff, getting rid of their rubbish. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I remember them coming through the shop once, want any cheap bananas? Yeah, what sort of bananas? And they were noted weren't they for rubbish. What are they like? Oh so and so, Oh they [break in recording] Have I done anything? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Er I said [speaker002:] Carry on. [speaker001:] I said, Oh, I said, Yes what are they like. And he'd say, Oh they're like this. So like alright, bring them in to see, I said like that. You know he knew I didn't want them. And then he guessed I didn't want to start with them. Erm he brought them in. Nice ones er one or two nice ones on top you see, rubbish underneath. Oh, I said, I don't want things like that, I said, take them away. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And they didn't c Oh I didn't used to bother with them. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] No. They were rubbish the bananas. They were coming from Bangor with these things to sell. Of course I didn't get rid of them. I suppose they always stock you see a lot. Mm. [speaker002:] You said that erm you enjoyed er m meeting people and talking to them, [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] did did do you think you you were able to... form a judgement of people on the basis of your experience? [speaker001:] Oh yes. Yes I think so. Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You could see through them you know. Oh yes, you got to know th That's one thing in business that's one thing you have to do. At least I think so at any rate. That you have to find your way with people. What sort of people they are, some like a lot of chatting, other people don't. And you've got to know their ways to be able to serve them properly. I think. Study them, not to go and rush and push things to them. You've got Oh I'm breaking everything now. [speaker002:] No. It's alright. [speaker001:] Erm you've got to go gently you know. Around. And then when you got to know your customers and when you know what they like and what they want, it's so much easier to serve. Once you get to know the customer. If you came in now and asked me for a pound of apples, well in a way I wouldn't know a stranger whether they like them under-ripe, ripe or just ready for eating. Well if you're accustomed to serving and studying what they like t cos some will ask you, Oh I'd like some ripe ones. Well you'd naturally one or two just to see if they're in what they want. Well after that, if they asked for yo a pound of apples, you could get them the pound of apples and you'd se sell a lot quicker. [speaker002:] And you would remember that would you? [speaker001:] Yes, oh yes, that's one thing I've got I can remember. And during the war you see, we had queues for these things, when they were on ration. And one gentleman in the crowd, he said, Are we allowed to shift them? [LAUGHTER] Well I said, I've got to, I said, I can't I haven't got time to talk to anybody, I said, I've got to shift it. You see, you were a lot on your own then, you couldn't get any help. You see if the girls were sent to taking them to other work. So if I had a queue isn't it, I just used to carry on with whatever was going on. And they were outside you know, standing. [speaker002:] Were they? [speaker001:] A lot Yes. There wasn't enough room in the shop. But I used to s shift them and they used to say to me, You know how to shift them. But I don't think people, some people like you to chat with them for a long time, other people they just like you to serve the, so they can go. Don't like to wait about. You know. And of course er we used to if we were busy, we used to tell they girls, I say, Look, I said, you can talk any anytime you like. I said, like that, but if there's a shop full of people, I said, just serve, carry on and finish and then if you want to chat after. And I said, If somebody's serving somebody in the shop and perhaps they you know two of three of them perhaps together, I said, but don't talk in the shop I said, go through to the back if you want to chat. Because some people are very very very touchy, they'd think you were talking about them. And somebody might laugh or something with something. One of the girls saying a something you know, and they laugh. I said, Don't so that, I said like that. I always says it. You've to sit a lot in the shop, go to the back if you want to chat. U unless there's somebody else wanting serving isn't it. If you happen to be serving, but I used to serve quite a lot myself. But I think they make a bit idle because [LAUGHTER] they knew what they knew what I w [] You know I was able to serve the what they wanted isn't it. Oh. It was lovely though. [speaker002:] W was there anyone who came to work for you [speaker001:] Oh yes. Yes. [speaker002:] Who was who you were able to erm if you like, if you were y who you were able to t t teach and show this sort of enthusiasm. [speaker001:] Yes they were all there you know, everyone of them you did. They only had to be with you. Sometimes they'd stand with you while you were doing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. But e of course they're no e You've got to have an interest I think to a lot. But I had some very good girls though. They were very very good, very nice, all I had. They were all country girls you know. No town girls. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] No. Country girls are much better workers. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Are they? [speaker001:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] Is that [speaker001:] Yes yes. [speaker002:] that's the difference is it? [speaker001:] Well for me it was. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] The others were more for dressing and er you know. But er country girls they set to it and work, they're good workers. I had very good girls really, I w would just just erm lost one of the ones that used to work for me. She died, last month is it. Yes I think. She died of leukaemia. She was only forty three. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Yes she was a nice girl too. Very nice, nice clean girl you know. Very good. My niece used to work for me too. There were six of us when I left. [speaker002:] In the shop? [speaker001:] Mm. Then my brother. And I had a a part timer, a friend, and my niece and I had There were six of us altogether, there was another like Two isn't it that's four. Yeah and my sister in law used to come M my brother's wife used to come and help us with the cleaning at night. But we used to clean the shop ready for the morning. Always ready to open. Floors done and everything, we didn't have to do jobs as like that in the morning. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] No. I used to do a lot of the cleaning myself. At night and er if there was anything wanted filling up. And I used to see to the fruits. I used to fill that. Yeah we were yeah we was We was like a happy family really, you know, everybody through and through. And that's a mistake a lot of shop people do. They look down on their staff. I think. They just want to show who's boss. But it doesn't work. Not for me. [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] I'd rather be one of them, work with them. Just put yourself one of them. It's so much nicer I think. I was treated like that by Mr and Mrs, they treated me like their own daughter. And I said to myself, I've been under a boss [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Colleagues. Minimum wage. I propose to take composite twenty followed by motion three three four and composite twenty one. Erm, the executive are accepting all these motions but on a couple of them want to put in a speaker with a statement and er after twenty one will to put that statement to the C E C. I now call composite twenty abolition of Wages Councils South Western Region to move, G M B Scotland to second. Priority in debate to Southern and Northern regions so if all the additional speakers could come down to the front, be very much obliged. South Western region to move... [Sheila:] Chair, Conference,, Clothing and Textile. South Western Region. Moving composite twenty. This Tory government's relentless attacks on the poor of this country go on day after day. V A T on heating is the latest, and now we have rumours of V A T on food. Yet still they persist on the abolition of the Wages Councils. By stopping the Wages Councils this government, through the Employment Secretary, now it's David Hunt, and we in Wales know enough of David Hunt. They are turning their backs on the low paid workers. Taking away the protection which the Wages Councils provide is the latest step in the bullion offensive against the poorest in society. It is quite clear getting rid of the Wages Councils would result in lower wages, poor jobs, and a move away from equal pay. In nineteen ninety one, six thousand workplaces were found to be underpaying one or more workers. In nineteen ninety one, twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve workers were found to be underpaid. In nineteen ninety one, arrears totalling one and a half million pounds was due to those twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve workers. In nineteen ninety one, of those six thousand employers found to be underpaying, just seventeen were prosecuted. All were found guilty. This was the highest number of convictions in one year since the present record began in nineteen forty five. The government's response? Is to abolish the law that embarrasses the employers and gives minimum protection of low paid working people. What an appalling set of figures. But still, we have an appalling government. A government that believes we are out of recession, but is still making Britain the Taiwan of Europe. This Union needs no convincing, nor does the Labour Party, of the need to retain the Wages Council. The Labour Party must continue to reject the tax on the low paid, the young, the elderly, and needs to commit itself to a restoration of the Wages Councils, an increase in the power of the Wages Councils, and an improvement in the Wages Inspectorate, to ensure that all employers who break the minimum wages legislation be detected and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Conference, there are two and a half million low paid workers in Britain, covered by Wages Councils. Our own clothing and textile section are an exam [clears throat] pardon me. We cannot allow the protection to be taken away from them. Colleagues, I gave you twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve reasons for you not only to support by raising your hands, but by actively supporting your fellow members in their fight to retain the Wages Councils and to guard and protect their wages. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] G M B Scotland... [Kathy:] , G M B Scotland. President, Congress. It is hardly credible that with all the economic problems facing this country, the latest Tory brainwave to aid recovery and keep growth is the abolition of the Wages Council. They wrongly believe that things can be put right by operating a framework where those on low pay can be paid even lower wages [clears throat] excuse me. Congress, we know that low pay never saves jobs and never will. The wages simulate growth as to put the unemployed back to work and have a high paid flexible work force. This government is intent on isolating Britain in Europe as the only country with no minimum guaranteed wages, and a producer for low cost products. In Scotland a quarter of a million of the workf workers would be affected by this Tor er, sorry, this Tory policy, mainly part-time working women and ethnic groups. We must recognize this policy for what it is, to turn Britain into the sweatshop of Europe. It is the duty of this Congress to cam to campaign and oppose this greedy Tory government and its policies at every turn. Remember, trade union and public opposition forced the re-think in the poll tax. We can do the same again. I second. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Southern Region... [Ethel:] President, Congress, supporting composite twenty. Congress, Wages so Councils set minimum rates of pay in some of U K's lowest paying industries. They provide over two point five million, three quarters of whom are women with protection, industries such as clothing and textiles, shops, hairdressers, and leisure services are all protected by the Councils. Over the last few years the t Tory government has reduced the amount of wages inspectors. Each now is responsible for over thirty four thousand workers. Instead of dealing with problems of low paid and increasing the number of inspectors, the government is going to abolish them completely. Congress, as the majority of low paid workers are women, the abolition of Wages Councils is direct discrimination. Although more women are j t joining trade unions, they have to continue to work in places where their bosses are opposed to union membership. It may even be impossible to gain full recognition. Laws are needed to protect women's rates of pay and ensure they get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Of course, not only women are in danger of being unprotected. Millions of others will be openly exploited by unscrupulous employers. Th the economy can only suffer shortages and low productivity as a result of poverty pay. We must support the introduction of a minimum wage and fight against the abolition of Wages Councils. I urge you to please support this motion. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Northern Region. Oh right, what happened to the Southern Region? Did they waive their rights? Ah... You've got to have eyes in the back of your head here I'm telling ya. [Kathy:] , Southern Region. Speaking in support of composite motion twenty. Conference, President. The Wage Councils were set up to establish legally enforceable minimum wages for employees and associated trades and prevented unfair competition. The Wage Council provided a useful basis for pay determination, especially in industries where there is little collective bargaining. The vast majority of the estimated two and a half million employees covered by the Wage Council work in the retail hot retail, hotel and catering, and textile industries. Many of these employees are women often working part-time. The scrapping of the Wage Councils will mean that millions of working people will be open to exploitation by unscrupulous employers. In the near future employers will be able to pay even lower wages and employees will no will have no legal right to challenge low pay. Many of our comrades in the hotel and catering industry work long and unsocial hours for as little as two ninety two an hour, a hundred and fourteen pound for a thirteen ho thirty nine hour week. Conference, who can survive on a hundred and fourteen pound a week? Many hotel workers don't belong to trade unions. It has always been difficult to organize hotel workers by the very nature of their industry but the time has now come for those very workers to join the G M B so that collectively we can fight the exploitation of low paid workers. Conference, I ask you to support this motion that calls for a publicity campaign to name those employers and establishments that exploit th their staff so they can make a fat profit, and to update the hotel list. If we really mean what we say we should blacklist those es establishments that refuse to recognize trade unions. After all, why we should we as trade unionists contribute to the ill-gotten gains of exploiters of human beings. Conference, please support [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three three four Wages Councils. Lancashire to move... [Steve:] , Lancashire Region, moving motion two three four. October the first nineteen ninety three is almost certainly the date the Wages Councils will be abolished. The abolition of the Wages Councils will not nothing less than rob two point seven million workers, mainly women workers, on minimum wage protection. Some employers will cease the opportunity as a chance to pay less and thereby making it even more difficult to make ends meet. Hotels and catering, clothing, retail, are three of the main Wages Council's industries, of which we have a large membership. The G M B currently negotiates at national level in industries as collective bargaining, but within the scope of the Wages Council. One could try and argue all the Wages Councils are doing in effect are rubber-stamping a joint motion agreed in advance between employers and unions. However, if the Wages Councils were abolished there would be no guarantee that a negotiated minimum rate would be applied. The result could be pay freezes, even pay cuts. Employers must simply abandon the national agreement altogether, or the employers may simply ban the national agreement altogether, as has happened in other industries like cotton spinning and weaving. Abolishing the Wages Councils would be a green light to sweatshops, a direct attack on the lowest paid. Wages undercutting is one of the possible results of abolition. We have already seen premium rate pay like double time for Sunday working attacked after statutory controls on them were removed in nineteen eighty six. The same attack would undoubtedly be made on basic rates when the Wages Councils are removed altogether. Employers who claim they can stand aside from com from com from competitive pressure to undercut are truly on one. The Wages Council's rates are currently used as a reference point in deciding what pay levels should be. Without it there could be a free for all and if abolition goes through the employers may well find themselves having to resort to some form of cooperative or wages club in its place. There is a place for minimum rates of pay. If there are no minimum rates of setting arrangements then standards will slip and conditions will deteriorate. Abolition of the Wages Council could seriously affect equality of pay between the sexes. A report by academics for the T U C shows there is no case for abolition. It is northing more than another attack aimed at the trade unions under the government's Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill, and takes absolutely no account of the additional hardship it will impose on our members. A big proportion of them are women. Basic rates set by the Wages Councils apply equally to women and men. Over four fifths, that's two million, of these w of those who the wages c wages are protected by the Wages Councils are women and as there would seem no point in abolition unless the wages were gonna fall, then it is women who will suffer disproportionately, along with another vulnerable group, single parents. I urge Conference to condemn this uncaring cynical government's decision to abolish the Wages Council and call for the establishment of a National Wages Council. I se to set minimum rates of pay for all workers in all industries and services. I move this motion. [Dick:] Thanks [speaker001:] [clapping] [John:] , seconding motion three four four. I'm not gonna go over t what my colleague has said but what I do wanna know is when are the Labour Party gonna get hold of some issue and make some sort of mileage out of it, because we've got a number of sponsored MPs and we can't get 'em off the doorstep at election time, but when it comes about doing summat for us and consider the fact that it affects many many people and we talk about the links that the Labour Party and the trade union has, I think the Labour Party's already severed 'em, as far as I'm concerned. Support the motion. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Composite twenty one, Minimum Wage, Lancashire Region to move... [Graham:] , Lancashire Region. President, sisters and brothers. Moving composite twenty one Minimum Wage. Congress, if a few more voters got off their backsides last year and gone out and voted, and voted Labour, there'd be no need for this motion at all because it's Labour Party policy anyway. If ever the poor low paid need a decent wage it's now. The new jobs being created are mostly part-time, low paid, unskilled, with no promotion prospects and few employment rights. Yes, you've guessed it. The rising jobs are for women. In eleven U K regions more women than we men now have jobs. Jobs on the cheap. British Home Stores and Burtons have sacked thousands of full-time staff and replaced them with part-timers. What they call them is. You just wo get called in when it's busy and work between eight and sixteen hours. You've gotta be in the job five years opposed to two years to get protection against unfair sacking, sick pay, redundancy pay, maternity leave. If you work less than these hours you have no rights at all. The Tories encourage low pay. They're happy for Britain to be a at the bottom of the income scale with rich rewards for those on top income. It's estimated that over ten million people now earn less than the Council of Europe's decency threshold for wages. Sixty eight percent of ad adult earnings, an increase of twenty five percent since nineteen seventy nine. And at the same time the income divide between the top twenty percent of men and the bottom twenty percent is now greater than it were hundred years ago. Shame. Nearly one million people have now had to claim mean-tested benefits in order to top up low pay. Independent analysts have estimated that a minimum wage set at three pound forty an hour would add one point eight percent to the total labour costs in Britain. But wages are only one element of overall costs. In reality, it would mean just a rise of nought point two percent on overall costs. In France where minimum wage have ri risen dramatically a study found no si ni no effects on wage infl inflation or unemployment. The introduction of a national mo minimum wage set at three pound forty an hour would directly benefit four point five million workers. Seventy eight percent of these, that's three point five million, will be women. Fifty nine percent of this, that's four point five million, will be working part-time. The ex Chancellor will gain a billion pounds through National Insurance and reduced benefits. Seventy thousand'll be removed off housing benefit and twenty nine thousand from rent rebates. Forty thousand from family credit and two hundred thousand people will be means-tested benefit. Please support this composite. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Northern Region to second... [Adrian:] Mister President, Congress,, Northern Region, seconding composite twenty one. Congress, after fourteen years of power the Tories have are still hell bent on ruining the lives of low paid working class. More than five million full-time workers are low paid, and with the significant growth in numbers of part-time workers, the amount of low paid employees is increasing. Women in particular are concentrated at the bottom of their occupational hierarchy of the least rewarding jobs. Colleagues, of the Western economies, Britain is almost alone in having no legal minimum wage or equivalent. Surely, at a time when the U K's economy position is disastrous, even the Tory government should see that low wages are a drain on the nation's resources as they reduce industry's productivity potential. Just as investors expect a high return for their capital, we should expect working people to receive a fair return for their labour. It is well known that foreign companies such as Nissan,, Mitsibushi, all come to British, all come to Britain because British workers are amongst the lowest paid in Europe. British labour is cheap. Congress, the time has come to demand change, to demand that British workers enjoy the rights enjoyed by workers across the rest of Europe. This demand is not unreasonable. The demand is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. A national minimum wage. Mister President, I second. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Does Liverpool wish to put in a speaker? No. Thanks very much. Colleagues, I call to put the C E C position... [speaker001:] , C E C. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite twenty, support motion three three four with qualification, and support composite twenty one. The Conservatives are determined to abolish the Wages Council. It's absolute disgrace. They're hell belt in, hell-bent in removing the last statutory protection against the poverty pay for workers in the U K. They will make us the only country in Europe without some minimum standards. Most of the two point five million workers affected are women. Delegates, the abolition of the Wages Council is an employment ch an employers' chapter to create sweatshops. What civilized government can really believe that the basic rate in my factory of two pounds seventy nine P per hour is too high? Could they clothe, feed and house a family on that kind of money? I don't think not. There's no economic justification for abolition. Many small employers want to keep Wages Councils. What we, we workers need is better management, not lower pay. Many more workers will be forced, by low pay, to claim benefits to make up their income, when they want to earn a decision wage. That also means we will be subsidizing bad employers through our taxes and the fiddling factory owners will undermine the decent conditions we have fought for over the years. We must continue to campaign on this issue and support taking legal action in Europe against the attack on women's pay. Motion three three four also deals with the abolition of the Wages Council and the C E C would like you to ask you to support it, but with qualification, that a national minimum wage rather than a national Wages Council is likely to be the best way to set a minimum rate of pay. To show our continuous commitment to fighting lo low pay the C E C ask you to support composite twenty, motion three three four and composite twenty one. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much. Composite motion er twenty to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three three four. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite motion twenty one. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, trade union Rights. There are a number of motions in this particular section. They are as follows. Composite twenty two, composite twenty three, motion three four two, motion three four three, motion three four six. Without exception the C E C are recommending you to accept them all but there is at least one where we're accepting with a qualification. Following the debate I will call to put the C E C position. I now call composite motion twenty two. Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill. Yorkshire Region to move. Lancashire Region to second and colleagues if, if all the other movers and seconders and the C E C speaker would all come down to the front it would help us enormously with time... Yorkshire Region to move. Is it? Okay, alright. , Lancashire Region, proposing composite motion twenty two. Congress, this legislation is th yet another attack on the workers' rights, wages and ability to organize. It is yet another attack on trade unions. It is a sick government that is proud of the fact that it's not signed up for a Social Chapter. It is even more sickening when official statistics show that one in four of all those suffering from poverty wages in Europe live and work in Britain. What does this legislation do for the low paid in Britain? I'll tell you what it does comrades, it kicks 'em right in the teeth. This legislation scraps the Wages Council. Mind you, not known for their generous pay awards, these Councils according to the government are a main obstacle to economic hope and prosperity in Britain. The G M B speaks for these workers, and we know that abolishing the Wages Council will not provide any hope or prosperity for millions of low paid workers all over Britain. The Civil Liberties Organization recently condemned the British government for violating international standards on the trade union rights. This leg legislation carries out further attacks on trade union, encouraging members of the public to sue strikers. Even Howard Davies of the C B I called this unhelpful. This legislation forces members to authorize on an annual basis their employer to deduct subs from their pay. The reason for this is very simple. It's to make it unreasonably difficult for unions to collect their subs and undermine collective organization. Again, this legislation attracts the Bridlington procedures that facilitate into the union membership disputes. The reason is obvious. It is, it is to support unions like the U D M and encourage scab unions. The only progressive things in this legislation are those demanded by European laws. On maternity rights the government has weakened the rights available to British workers and on they are resisting reorganization of cases. This legislation is nothing to do with employment rights. It is about weakening rights and are attacking trade unions. Congress, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks... [Sheila:] President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, seconding composite twenty two. This Bill follows fr on from a series of attacks on the trade union movement and working people over the last fourteen years. These new measures will do nothing to improve industrial relations in this country. It is typical of this Tory government, a government that has not had a constructive idea all the time it has been in office, but thinks that union bashing is the only answer to the country's problems, that thinks it is the only way to unite the Tory troops. They honestly do not care, care about this country. They do not care about the unemployed. They do not care about the sick. They do not care about our future. They care about only one thing, about themselves and th that's staying in power. This is hanging on on to the reins of government and they are prepared to destroy the country in the process. The legislation is not only unnecessary but it is, it could set industrial relations back years in this country. At a time when more progressive countries are facilitating improved levels of communications between all sides of industry, this government sets out to cause disharmony and to create friction. More sensible governments place the onus on solving problems through social partnership, through improving standards, through actually encouraging training and recognizing skills. In the midst of this terrible recession this government can think of nothing better than scrapping Wages Councils and introducing more union curbs. These new measures will actively encourage unscrupulous employers to further exploit over two and a half million low paid in this country, mostly of them women. These measures make Britain an employment dumping ground, a country that pays its workers low wages and offers its workers no protection. Probably the largest attack is centred on the deduction from wages or check-off legislation. This is not unusual these days from employees while blaming the economic situation to refuse an increase in pay. But, in order to maintain the services to our members, unions will probably still have to increase rates at an annual basis. Imagine the situation where employers are now obliged to notify employee members of that rise in contribution and also reminding them that they have the right to withdraw their authorization. So not only do we have the challenge every three years to ensure that our members renew check-off but we will have in all probability through a similar process on an annual basis. What a drain on valuable time and resources. Colleagues, this composite calls for the immobilization of the union's many resources to campaign against the vicious and unnecessary legislation. It refers to G M, G M B sponsored MPs and MEPs. We demand that they defend our interests, both in Westminster and Eur European Parl Parliament, but we must realize that until the electorate of this country vote in a Labour government, as I am sure they will do in the near future, no later, we will have a w workplace campaigns, we'll have workplace campaigns to educate and inform our members. We are good at organizing and organizing we'll do. Colleagues, support this composite. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Composite motion twenty three to be moved by Midlands... [Kathy:] President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite twenty three. Congress, in moving this composite I have no intention of delivering a history lesson. We're all painfully aware of our individual employment situations have changed for the worse over the past fourteen years of Tory government. As each slice of anti-trade union legislation has gone onto the statute book we've become less able to effectively represent our membership. We have witnessed the massive growth in unemployment, a huge increase in the number of part-time and home workers, many of them accepting a grotesquely low rate of pay. The decline in real earnings of all industrial workers is reflected in the growth of overtime in every industry. Twelve members of the European Community moved towards the standardization of workers' rights as contained in the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty. John Major's government gallops proudly in the opposite direction. At a time when only one in five Conservative voters think that there is a need for further anti-union legislation, the government is pushing through the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill. The preceding composite has focused our attention on the effects of the forthcoming legislation. It is strange to consider that were it not for the intervention of Conservative industrialists, the proposals in this Bill could have been far worse. Lord Prior, figurehead at G E C, and former Tory Minister, argued against the government's original proposal that the employee's authorization of check-off facilities should be on a yearly basis. Such a proposal, he concluded, would be unworkable from the employer's point of view. He also indirectly supported the Bridlington Agreement by stating that employers preferred single union deals. The Tories have stopped short of making trade union membership illegal but is it legal to punish trade union members financially through selective redundancies, and as collective agreements are cancelled through offering inferior individual contracts and withholding pay rises? The Tories attempt to justify their punitive legislation by stating that industrial disputes affect economic growth. During the past twenty five years Italy has had the highest strike rate in Europe. During that same period of time Italy's average growth in industrial production has been four percent, compared to the U K's one point nine. The Tories would also that curtailing trade union rights is an important factor in attracting foreign investment. During the first eleven years of Tory government approximately twenty thousand jobs per year were created by foreign-owned companies. Compare that to the millions who joined the unemployed register. Congress, the very least we can ask of the Labour Party is for a total commitment to the repeal of all anti-trade union legislation enacted since nineteen seventy nine, and a commitment to sign the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty. Only then can we begin to repair the damage caused since the Tories came to power. We can then effectively return to fighting for the improved quality of life of all our members. President, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much. G M B Scotland to second, G M B Scotland to second. [Ethel:] President, Congress,, G M B Scotland, seconding composite twenty three. In the last fifteen years we've been a country where law had little to do with Labour relations. Britain has become a country where almost every aspect of industrial relations are now covered by legal restraints. Although we should remember this discussing this motion today that the British state has never been averse or slow to use the law to subjugate working men and women. However, the reason that the contemporary attacks are different is that the shackling of trade unions was an integral part in Margaret Thatcher's economic package and if the only reason for this legislation was because it was part of a failed economic strategy then that in itself should be enough, but the real effect of anti-trade union legislation should be examined in the context of a wider social and industrial parameter, and if we take just one Act, the Employment Act of nineteen eighty, we can get some idea of the effect of Tory employment legislation. Six and seven of that Act increased the limits for unfair dismissal from twenty six weeks to two years. Section eight helped to introduce short-term contracts... section nine removed the minimum basic award t for compensation for unfair dismissal. Section fourteen reduced the time period for entitlement of guaranteed payments and, perhaps worst of all, sections eleven twelve and thirteen on maternity rights affected the rights of women to return to work. Of course, this Act was followed by those of eighty two, eighty four, eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety, ninety one, ninety two and ninety three. All of them are equally vicious and vin vindictive. But we can see from the nineteen eighty Act that. despite its protestations, that it speaks in the name of individuals by shredding employment protection and undermining collectivism. This government undermines each and every worker. The truth is that acting in is isolation workers simply cannot recognize their rights against the superior powers of employers and of capital. Ultimately trade unions are the workers only social protection. There's a very succinct quote about law by Oliver Goldsmith and he puts it really into perspective and he says, laws ground the poor and rich men rule the law. It's time to get these laws off the backs of the working class. Support the composite. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Does Birmingham wish to put a speaker in? [speaker001:] No [Dick:] No. Thanks very much. Colleagues, motion three four two. Labour Movement Media Campaign. Midland Region to move... [Kathy:] President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region. Today, we've had two examples of the media campaign. Timex in Scotland. What do we know about the Timex dispute in Scotland? I personally don't know a lot about it apart from the fact that Arthur Scargill went up there and there was a bit of excitement. But it made the national press because Arthur was up there and there was a bit of shouting and scuffling. John mentioned the Burnsall dispute. I've never heard of that one at all. But by looking at this document here, it would appear there's been more violence committed there against lawful pickets and yet that doesn't make the national press. Two examples of bias in the press. The Labour im [clears throat] ownership of the mass media tends to be concentrated in the hands of a few companies. Not just, not just publishing but also broadcasting in cinemas. I quote from the sixth of July nineteen eighty seven. On all three continents where Mr Murdoch rules his titles support businessmen, governments and their ambitions. It is an awesome power which threatens our democracy. It is not simply because Mr Murdoch interferes with editorial policy, which he does, but because his staff, from the moment they are employed, know what is expected of them. They know what to write and how to write, and if they do not they will be out the front door before they can pick up their hats and coats. End quote. Awesome power indeed. Labour should not get elected. Kinnock cannot be trusted. Too many U-turns. Kinnock too lightweight and a clown, slipping on the beach. Labour would do better with John Smith as a leader. Labour hold victory rally in Sheffield before election. The bias at times is obvious. At others more subtle. Television interviews. Get the politician or the industrial leader against a bi a good background, own office, bit of make up, comfortable in his own surroundings. Interview the trade union leader in the street. Traffic, unflattering angles, our knows about this a very subtle way [Dick:] [clapping] you know what they're laughing at? You know what they're laughing at? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Kathy:] A very subtle way of colouring people's views. Indeed, leading up the General Election, one tabloid paper said truth, not propaganda, and it ran a series of articles each day de doing features on the main Parties, to give a fair and balanced view, but also running other features claiming nothing wrong with the N H S, banking systems and other high profile problems. But then, on the day of the election, they said, we have given you all the facts but on balance advise you to v vote for John Major. Bias? What bias? There are out there people of thirty plus who have never known a Labour government, who only know what they see and read. We cannot afford to wait t a few months before the next election. We need now to get our act together. Unions put out newspapers, many put out more than one. We need an urgent review, maybe less papers but more information on rights lost and what Labour policies are for the future. Some of these thirty plus never had the rights so how do they know what have gone? Questions need answering. What is the Social Charter? Why huge job losses if we have a minimum wage? Why would a maximum forty eight, forty eight hour week lose jobs? It's up to us to inform them. Fewer, but better, papers. Bright snappy leaflets for notice boards. Lord Northcliffe once wrote, God made people read so that I could fill their brain with facts and later tell them whom to love and whom to hate and what to think. Well we need to make people think and we need to make them care. Support motion three four two. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you. A seconder for three four two? [Steve:] President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, seconding motion three four two. Congress, as you know, our Union supports a free press but would like better rights of redress. Let me give you an example of the misuse of the press. The Sun published a front page lead stating that a Labour London borough had banned the teaching of Baa Baa Black Sheep as racist. This had been replaced by Baa Baa Green Sheep. This story was completely untrue and was successfully challenged in front of the Press Council. The correction was printed in a small two centimetre box hidden in well inside the paper. Other countries such as America allow papers to have a political leaning in terms of editorials etcetera. But actual stories must be balanced and if not, the correction has to be the same, must have the same prominence in the original, as the original, article. Why won't this government adopt a similar law for this country? Now, one of the successes that the media's had, if you can call it a success, is to link socialism and losers together. The trouble is, the media is able to influence the public and unfortunately influential people in the trade union and labour movements, and maybe they believe the propaganda that socialism is dead and respond accordingly. That's the media, the power of the media. What is needed from you Congress is to fight these distortions and to take back the front page headlines and make sure that the headlines are accurate, fair and truthful. I second motion three four two. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Three four three Lancashire Region to move... [John:] , Lancashire Region, speaking on motion three four three. The anti-trade union laws which we face in October are just another attempt by this government to wipe out socialism and break the trade union movement. We must demand that these laws be abolished because if this government has its way, the working man will have gone back one hundred years. Together with the abolition of the Wage Councils and the minimum wage, the working man will find himself at the mercy of the unscrupulous bosses. The laws have already crippled the working people throughout the U K. We watched unions being taken apart and what has the leadership done? Nothing. Get up front. Attack these laws. We will start to rebul rebuild the movement brick by brick. Only by being united will we defeat this government. promised to fight for the miners. Three hundred thousand marched in London, hundred thousand elsewhere across Britain, supported by millions. The tragedy is that didn't carry the fight through. I believe what goes around comes around, and our day will come. No more oppression, no more shackles, no more exploitation. We must start to fight back now and the G M B should be at the for forefront. I say fight the laws, fight this government, fight for the survival of socialism and the trade union movement. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping]... [Graham:] Mister President, Congress,, Lancashire Region, seconding motion three four three. I believe, brothers and sisters, at this Conference, we must decide whether we're gonna take away from here back to our members any credibility. I don't imp intend to preach to the converted but what I do intend to say to anyone in this hall that's either indifferent or complacent or just too idle to do anything than let this motion drift by them, that if we don't get together on this issue to get the message over to our national officers and in turn the T U C, that if we don't stand and fight for the right to uphold the basic principles of what I believe to be trade unionism, that is the right to withdraw labour, the right to protect our brothers and sisters from oppressive employers, the right to command decent conditions and fair pay without fair reprisal. If we don't make a stand now then all of us in this hall will be a living, breathing testament to the betrayal of all those that have gone before us and we'll leave nothing for anybody coming in the future. As a works convenor, I work along twenty shop stewards, and I can tell this Congress that the message that they've given to me from the people from the people that have elected them, is that they're sick and tired of the perpetual bleating of the T U C about how they have to abide by the laws, when the only laws that are there are the laws that are bringing this movement down. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Graham:] There comes a time when natural justice supersedes any law made by any government, and that time's now. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Graham:] No longer the excuse of keeping low profile... [tape change] actions, hoping for a Labour government because if we haven't got the guts to stand up and fight the government that made these laws, then we've got no right to challenge a future Labour government that inherits 'em. Brothers and sisters, I say to you that the message that must leave this Conference is one that says to all trade unionists, we will fight any oppressive legislation used against us. All our brothers and sisters, when they need us, whatever the cost, wherever the place, we need no one to do the job for us. We won't wait any longer. We must say to our officers now, today, don't sit back and see the life blood squeezed out of our union. Show this government something, by your example, that they haven't got, and that's strong leadership. The leadership that the T U C have starved us of for over ten years. And give us back the pride and the credibility that we once took for granted as trade unionists but we allowed to slip away from us, and make us a force to be reckoned with, and send this government a message, we'll never allow anyone at Westminster to tell us how to run the G M B, we'll never allow anyone at Westminster to prevent us from protecting our brothers and sisters and we'll no never ever allow anyone at Westminster to defeat the trade union movement. I second the motion. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three four six Southern Region... [Adrian:] Congress, Mister President,, Southern Region, moving motion three four six. Colleagues, the de-recognition and non-recognition of trade unions in the U K has fast become the central challenge to and for the trade union movement, particularly as this government is committed to accelerating the de-recognition process. This creeping destruction of workers' rights has spread rapidly from journalists to printers, from tanker drivers to docks, telecom managers to mines, and lecturers to insurance staff. Slowly but surely the rights of trade union reps are being eroded. In some cases, incentives are being given by management to workers who disassoc disassociate themselves from the unions, leading to hostility and antagonism within the workplace between workers who have traditionally been united in furthering industrial relations. Trade union de-recognition is having effect of reducing the solidarity of workers and of reducing rights built up over a hundred years of trade union movement. And the government is proud of its achievement. In fact, it is so proud that it now boasts at a European level of the cheap U K labour costs and the lack of workers' rights. Two months ago the British government took out advertisements in regional newspapers in Germany encouraging business to come to Britain to take advantage of low labour costs compared to elsewhere in the E C. The advertisement proudly noted that the labour cost index for Britain is one hundred, compared to one seventy eight in Germany. In another publication, circulated by the D T I to foreign embassies, the government boasts and I quote, new labour laws have been introduced so that employers are now under no statutory obligation to recognize any union. Colleagues, if this government is so blatantly prepared to sell out its own workers in such a public manner, then there will surely be no limit to the steps they will be prepared to take to further reduce union power. We must fight the challenge for what it is. A direct attack on the fundamental freedoms and rights of workers to organize themselves collectively. But social dumping is but one example of the way in which the European spirit has been abused by this government. Unscrupulous employers have found new ways of sidestepping European social directives which depend on having union representatives in the workplace. By de-recognizing these representatives, employers can effectively ignore their obligations in Europe and thereby deny workers' rights accepted as basic conditions in the eleven other member states. Colleagues, union de-recognition strikes at the very heart of the trade union movement, and in preparing to face this challenge, the G M B must be at the forefront of the fight. Congress, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder for three four six?... [speaker001:] Congress, I second motion three four six. The nineteen eighty Employment Act gives the possibility to the employers through the U K to de-recognize legitimate trade unions and these trade union re representatives has to be the most damaging piece of government legislation of the last two decades. It is directed at the core of the transpor the general un er the er tee the union movement, which is unity thr throughout the workplace. It has allowed employers to drive a wedge between workers making the members of thi the, the workforce a second class citizens within their, their own workplace. It has allowed unscrupulous employers to avoid E C directives such as collective redundancies, transfers of undertakings, a range of health and safety directives. I second this motion. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, I call to put the C E C position... , Southern Region Secretary, responding on behalf of the C E C. President, Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite twenty two, support composite twenty three, and motions three four two and three four six. We accept motion three four three with some qualifications as it begs the question actually how do we refine anti-trade union laws? We have long sought parliamentary protection against the common law and have already accepted some state interference in our rulebooks. We have, for example, welcomed laws that allows us to merge and accept transfers of engagements from other trade unions and also laws allowing political expenditure. The G M B supports a fresh approach to industrial relations' law with a completely new legislative code which brings international standards fully into the U K. President, we are totally opposed to the repressive trade union laws brought in by Tory governments over the last fourteen years. Tory governments that have said they are the champions of the individual, but have eroded the rights of individual workers over the last fourteen years. That want economic benefits of Europe for the of the business world but have denied British workers the protection of European social legislation. That abolishes Wages Councils but denies the lowest paid British workers a minimum rate of pay which the other eleven member states provide. As mentioned by the speaker of three four six about advertising in foreign newspapers, they have the audacity to advertise in foreign newspapers that cheap labour is available in Britain. They actually take pride in promoting Britain as the sweatshop of Europe. What kind of government is this? It's been mentioned by several speakers today. They're a sick cynical uncaring government that will go to any extremes to deny individual workers their rights. This was clearly illustrated just over a week ago when, by the cynical abuse of the legislative process, they introduced an amendment to the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill at the eleventh hour in the Lords. They did this to overturn the Court of Appeal ruling that found on behalf of a Daily Mail journalist and an employee of British. The judgement found that the trade unionists had been penalized for being members of a trade union. They were denied a pay rise when they refused to sign a personal contract because they wanted to be covered by the trade union collective agreement. The government's justification for this amendment was, and I quote, it was not in line with what the government expected. This is according to someone we've never heard of before and hopefully will never hear of again, a Viscount Ullswater. They're actually now infringing on our civil rights. They're infringing on our basic right to be a member of a trade union. And it was mentioned by the member of motion twenty three, they're actually now starting to look at membership of a trade union being illegal. The disgraceful action was described by Hugo Young of The Guardian as a shameful saga of a politically sick society. Congress, what is just as worrying is apparently the Parliamentary Labour Party was extremely reluctant to take any stand at all to respond to this blatant breach of I L O laws. Perhaps they should spend more time concentrating on protecting interests of workers than promoting constitutional debate within the Party. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] President, where do we go from here? I am pleased to report to Congress that, following a meeting with our lawyers, we're reasonably confident that there are in fact two avenues open to us to challenge the government in the Courts on the Social Chapter. We will now be considering how best to progress this challenge. We will continue to campaign vigorously with our colleagues in the trade union, and hopefully the labour movement, on all aspects of employment rights, not just through the media as asked for in three four two, but at the workplace. Despite fourteen years of trying to smash us into submission, they'll fail to break the spirit of the working people of Britain. Our members have had enough of repressive Tory employment laws that give too much power to unscrupulous employers and no protection for the workers. The British public have had enough. Trade unionists are fighting back. The General Secretary mentions some of them in his Report, and I do not apologize for mentioning it again, they're fighting back at Timex, they're fighting back at Burnsall, in my own region at Crawley we've twenty members who've been on strike for the last sixteen and a half weeks. They're fighting back in other workplaces throughout the U K. We must fully support these workers and campaign for them. The G M B will use every aven avenue open to us to ensure that British workers do not become the sweated labour of Europe. We demand the same rights, protection and civil liberties that other European workers enjoy. C E C recommends support composite twenty two, twenty three, motions three four two, three four six, motion fo three four three with the qualifications mentioned. Thank you colleagues. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed er. I put the, put the Resolutions to the vote. Composite motion twenty two, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite twenty three, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three four two, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three four three, all those in favour? That's carried. Er, anybody against? That's carried. Motion three four six, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, you'll have noted the time of the day. It's about fourteen minutes, thirteen minutes past four by my watch. Now, we were due to finish at four o'clock but I'm not suggesting we can get through all the business if we carry on. However, we've got the next composite twenty four on part-time workers which is very important, and rights of work. All these motions are associated in a way with the previous debates that we've had. I think, if we went on for another half an hour or forty five minutes, we could clear virtually everything. We would only be then left with the er Regional Reports. However important those are, I feel confident that we could get those in at the end of the week somewhere. Would you agree with me that we carry on? Thank you very much indeed. Part-time workers, composite motion twenty four, part-time and temporary workers, Yorkshire Region to move. G M B Scotland to second. Priority in debate Northern Region. If speakers could come down to the front please... Colleagues, settle now please. [speaker001:] President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region,mov moving composite [clears throat] moving composite on part-time and temporary labour. You might find it's a little bit strange me stood up here talking to you about temporary labour, part-time workers, when you've heard what Asda's gone through and said temporary labour situations all morning. But I'm still here to ask you to support this motion on the plight of casual and temporary workers. Many of us here present today have worked for our employers for over two years so we have some protection under law. Well, it's a bit of a joke really. In many instance not even that's a consolation. The casual workers are the perfect tar target for the employ employers who to swing the d Sword of Damocles. They'll chop your heads off when they feel like it. This is how the employers see the temporary and casual worker. They'll do any job. They'll not answer back. They can move 'em about when they feel like it. And they'll put up with any conditions. They can pay 'em what they like and if they upset anybody they're down the road. Well, we all know that cos that's exactly what happens to 'em. If we carry on to let 'em do as they like, what'll happen is this section of the workforce will go in such a decline, they'll be very profitable which as we've already heard as Asda are trying it on now. When costs are so profitable why would they need full-time employees, they can just have us stood at the door any d any g at the gate any week they want, begging for a day's work. My granddad did. I'm sure some of yours did. In a lot of, a lot of situations these er employees can't go to bank, get a loan, they can't get a mortgage, building society won't listen to 'em, nobody really cares about 'em.... We need to ensure that these people get some form of equal right, equal right with a s simple contract. More and more employees are using these casual workers and every one of our jobs is under threat cos if you lose your job tomorrow, you're a casual the day after. As easy as that... people who have to work under these conditions, right, in the threat of w threat of labour, have real problems with the kids. You know, the normal things in life. A bit of security of employment so they can sort of sort out for an holiday. Instead what happens is they do thirteen weeks as some place and they're down road. It's no good at all.... If their protection under agreement and under law was exactly the same as a full time-worker then what'd happen is simple. There'd be no need to have 'em as casuals or temporary workers. I've heard in fac er in my factory, I've heard it in other places, right, when a temporary l temporary or casual worker goes down the road, or a part-timer work's cut short, ah it's only a casual and he only expected to be here for a few weeks. Who'll tell his wife and kids that cos I don't want to. And it does matter. It matter to all of us. We can't accept these conditions for our employees so sign 'em up for the G M B and fight for their rights. Fight for a fair, the fairness, and a fair ineq quality of life. Colleagues, I move this motion. [clapping] [Dick:] G M B Scotland to second? G M B Scotland to second... [Kathy:] Chair, delegates,, Lanarkshire two branch, clothing and textile section, seconding temporary workers. The forgotten people, or so it seems. The people who continue to be discriminated against by employers with regard to pay, holidays, redundancies, working conditions, pensions, maternity rights etcetera. Congress must fully support moves by the T U C and the Labour Party to ensure that temporary workers are treated no less favourably than full-time workers. Action is essential. Particuary particularly, sorry, in today's economic climate. Increasing numbers of people are being employed on temporary basis. Making life so much harder for th for the worker and so very much easier for the employers. For example, if there is an unexpected budgetary overshoot, the labour force can effortlessly be reduced by simply not renewing employment contracts, which is why industries are succumbing to the same ruthless logic. I urge you to support this motion for temporary workers, and let's have equal rights for all. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Northern Region... [Ethel:] , Northern Region, supporting composite twenty four. President, Congress. How would you like to have no employment rights? This is the case with most temporary workers and some part-time workers. No right to redundancy and no right to accrued holiday pay. Most will be paid less than full-time workers and be on short-term contracts, I E monthly and in some cases weekly. In my own particular section of the clothing and textiles the union fought long and hard to gain the same rights and conditions for temporary workers, and so leading to permanent employment in most cases. In the present economic climate, I feel we are taking a backward step to the bad old days. How many rights have we lost since the Tories came to power? We now have many more temporary and part-time workers, with the so-called, in commas, decent employers, who will do anything to save money. Isn't this a threat to the workers who feel their job is permanent? How many employee employers, I E British Home Stores, have paid off their full-time staff and given them part-time only employment. Timex in Scotland who sacked all their workforce, who now have no job at all. How many more will try this on in the future? We can no longer stand by and let this happen. When will we say enough is enough? Well, Congress, I say it's now. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Congress, the C E C are recommending your acceptance with a statement and I call National Vice President... [Kathy:] Congress, President,, speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C is appalled at the increase in the use of part-time and temporary contracts by employers as a way of cost-cutting. This increase, accelerated by the recession, has meant inequality and discrimination for hundreds and thousands of workers. The growth in the labour market flexibility, as employers like to call it, has become another way of describing de-regulation of employment conditions and eroding trade union rights. Under the Tories part-time and temporary working all too often, not all too often, always,ha means low pay, poorer working conditions and few of the benefits enjoyed by full-time workers. Britain is fast becoming a sweatshop economy based on cheap labour and no investment and the Tories have proved it. John Major himself, when they put adverts in every press in Europe, come to Britain, our employees have no rights and they are cheap labour. So it's not rhetoric, it's truth. Instead of moving forward into the twenty first century, the Tories are moving backward us backwards with working conditions that would be more suited to the nineteenth century. Colleagues, since nineteen eighty one, we have stood on this platform and denounced C C T, compulsive competitive tendering, because it was the start of low paid temporary workers. Lower the hours, no holidays, doing the same amount of work in shorter hours, if you want to win the contract. Most of us, or most employees, were threatened. Well, some time ago Jack Straw was supposed to have said that under the no new er Acts, or under a Labour government, that C C T would remain because of a transfer of undertakings we didn't er need to change. This union made Jack Straw in no doubt, and the Labour Party, that on their election the compulsory element of C C T will be removed, and if they had any ideas they'd better forget 'em. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Kathy:] Congress, not so long ago we had Panorama and I T V, and I congratulate both of "em, for highlighting to the world the problems of temporary and low paid part-time workers, where one agent went under cover and where Panorama highlighted that temporary working conditions, not of back-street sweatshops, not of the little corner shops down the road, or th or the little needlework factories, but of E M I, one of our biggest producers in this country, that they were employing labour for one year eleven months and twenty eight days and then sacking 'em. What a disgrace for a company to behave, a company like E M I. And there's not only E M I, there's a vast number of 'em. Well, a few weeks ago, on your behalf, I attended the National Policy Forum of the Labour Party and we made it quite plain that the Labour government in its manifesto will have full employment rights for all from day one, so no one can abuse workers" rights. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Kathy:] And you'll be pleased to know that Frank Dobson has agreed to meet us on the fourteenth of June and we will make sure, to the best of our effort, that that policy will be endorsed. Congress, the C E C is committed to negotiating full-time rights and benefits for part-time and temporary workers. We will ensure our bargaining agenda makes the employer's so-called flexibility work for G M B part-time and temporary workers and it will be full empli employment right for all from day one. Thank you. Support the composite. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much indeed. I put composite motion twenty four to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Rights at Works, colleagues, will include motion three two three, motion three three eight, three five O, three five two, three five three, three six five. C E C are accepting, coupled with a statement and with a qualification and then I'll be asking to respond for the C E C. Motion three two three May Day Holidays. Lancashire Region to move and could the other speakers move, and seconders, additional speakers, come down to the rostrum please... [speaker001:] President, Congress. I never thought in my wildest dreams that this motion'd be on an agenda. But there again I'm not bloody surprised. The leadership we've had from the trade union movement over the last fourteen years, we've been picked off on everything. As the old Greek said, what you have you hold. Now we're likely to bloody lose it. I can't for the love of me understand the leadership of all the unions that allowed, we don't even get enough holidays of what they get on the continent, we should be asking for more, not taking them off us or putting it in October to celebrate Nelson and Trafalgar because I couldn't give a monkey for 'em. [clapping] [clapping] If you want your holidays, you have them in the summer time and May Day is a workers' day. It's nothing to do with politics, with the Labour Party, the Conservative or the Communist Party. It's always been a workers' day and I hope it will remain so. [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder?... [John:] Er, Lancashire Region. President, Congress. In seconding the motion for keeping the May Day holiday, it is my opinion that th th g this government is having yet another go at the unions. It seems to me that we are having to fight all over again to keep many things that we have already fought for and gained in the past. We must all fight together to keep thet [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three three eight, European Legislation, Lancashire Region to move... [Graham:] [clears throat], Lancashire Region, moving motion three three eight on European Legislation. President, Congress. Over the last few weeks certain parts of European legislation have come to the forefront of media attention. Not least, the ruling of a maximum working week of forty eight hours. This Tory government, in its infinite wisdom, has decided not to introduce this ruling until at the earliest two thousand and three. What a farce. This government should be forced to stand by its convictions, not just pick and choose rulings to follow which will fill its whilst ignoring those which will benefit the ordinary working man. Why should the government be allowed to get away with limiting the Transfer of Undertakings legislation to the private sector? Are public sector employees' rights less important than those of private sector employees? I think not. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] That seconded? Thank you very much. Motion three five O, Employment, London Region to move... [Adrian:] President, Congress,, London Region, moving Resolution three five O. Congress, I'm sure everybody here has heard of, or had experience of, the changes taking place in the terms of our employment. No longer do we take it for granted as meaning that we get a job in a company, or an industry, with the hope and intention of learning new skills, gaining experience and becoming part of an enterprise, in turn passing on skills and giving others the benefit of our experience. In the past, this did not mean that we would not move from company to company, it most certainly did not mean that we ha that we thought we had a job for life, but it did mean that we expected a degree of permanence and improvement as part of the reward for our endeavours and labour. But that has all changed now. What we now see all too often is a variety of less secure substitutions for full-time direct employment. These come in the guise of short-term and temporary contracts, agency staff and contracting out, rolling contracts and extended trial periods, right across the employment scene. And make no mistake, although this has been introduced in a piecemeal and seemingly haphazard manner, it is in effect a well thought out policy, with the strategy coming from the Tory think-tanks and implemented with gusto by their close friends and allies in both public and private industry. And the goals of this policy are many and varied. Prime amongst them is to d to undermine nationally agreed wages and conditions, to undermine rights embodied in industrial law, to undermine trade union membership and organization. And the victims of this policy are often low paid and often women, but it's by no means confined to these groups. It is widespread and growing to the extent that the government is currently seeking to legislate for variable contracts between trade union members and non-members. But the effects and intentions of short-termism go far beyond these limits. Just think what we have struggled to build up over the years, for what we call job security. We've struggled to establish financial security so as to provide for the needs of our families and communities. Good health, good housing, good education and freedom from the fear of poverty and deprivation. And we approach this in a positive manner, so that hand in hand with stability we had job satisfaction, fulfilment and pride. But once a job becomes a series of chances with restrictions built in, all of what we struggled for becomes a thing of the past. Uncertainty replaces contentment, insecurity replaces hope. Some aspects of short-termism can be dressed up to look appealing. Well, it's better than no job at all som I hear them say. No, there can be no doubt that long-term effects will be bad for organized labour and a cruel price for many, a price not worth paying. Colleagues, short-termism must be opposed and reversed. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder for three five O? Thank you. Motion three five two, Yorkshire Region to move... [speaker001:] President, Congress, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, moving three five two. Contracts of Employment. A contract of employment can also consist of items other than those listed in employment statements. Works rules, custom and practice, and some terms in collective agreements can all be incorporated. The law says that once the employment contracts have been accepted by the employee, then the employer should not make changes without agreement. If employers try to give notice to change the contract without agreement then they are in fact giving notice to terminate the contract and offering a new one on different terms. If the employee refuses the change, the employee will be in breach of contract. If they try to impose it unilaterally, the employm employee would then be entitled to resign and claim constructive dismissal, or alternately, in some circumstances, take the action to a County Court. This is, of course, is where the problem starts. The employee must leave his or her employment on the chance that their case succeed. Bearing in mind that even if an employer's action amounts to constructive dismissal, this does not always mean that the dismissal will automatically be unfair. The tribunal or court could well take the view that the business needs to reorganize or terminate practices or indeed to cut costs. All of these can be viewed as valid reasons for changing a contract. To succeed with a er constructive dismissal case the proposed changes must be viewed as fundamental. Many changes are not viewed as fundamental in today's economic climate, so in theory we may seem to have the backing of the legal scheme, where in practice we have to cope with the interpretation which is weighed towards the employers and their economic arguments. Th that is why this motion calls for the C E C to introduce a rolling campaign aimed at introducing legislation which will bind companies to the status quo until new agreements are reached through consultation. A company breaking this agreement should give us the absolute right to seek compensation. New legislation is needed because employers can hide behind the smoke screens of reorganization for economic reasons, which enables them to make changes to working people's terms [clears throat] conditions of employment. Surely if a change is impl imposed on employees, then regardless of the su supposed economic arg argument, regardless of the employer's dictatorial attitude, we should be able to say these proposed changes will not take effect until full negotiation and agreement have been reached. Colleagues, I ask for you to support, to support this motion. I also ask you to monitor an any unilateral decision made by your employers and document any changes. Let your full-time organizer have the details. We will then be in a position to support our campaign with the facts. Colleagues, support this motion. [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much colleague. Is there a seconder?... President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, seconding motion three five two, Contracts of Employment. has outlined the complex legalities involved in trying to stop emp employers imposing changes to contracts of employment against the wishes of the employee. On one hand we know that the employees cannot make changes to contacts without agreements. On the other hand, we realize how difficult it is to use the law to bring these rogue employees to task. Unfortunately many employees also know how difficult it is for us to stop them simply imposing changes without agreement from the people that are affected. There are, of course, certain alternatives to using the law. Workers can refuse to accept the change and withdraw their labour. Many workers are already looking over their shoulders with four million people in reality unemployment in the United Kingdom. They do not see strike action as a real choice, and why should they? They have [clears throat] they have t why should they even have to contemplate taking this type of industrial action? They have kept their side of the agreement, kept their part of the contract. Colleagues, fourteen years of Tory rule has taken its toll. Many employees are using the excuse of falling sales to impose changes to previously agreed conditions, often using the excuse to impose changes to conditions that have been fought for for many years. They will sometimes attempt to justify the situation by buying out certain conditions. The workers would rather stick to the status quo but know that an industrial tribunal would rule that the employer was forced to make the changes for supposedly sound economic reasons, and moreover had sought to agree financial compensation. The motion asks the C E C to initiate a campaign aimed at changing legislation, giving workers the right to refuse to accept changes to previous agreed contracts. We must start by collating and documenting all cases, all changes, where imposed [clears throat] affecting G M B members. We should highlight and publicize these imposition, pass the information to our sponsored MPs, ask them to raise the issues in Parliament. Our forbearers in the trade union movement fought hard to win many of the conditions enjoyed by G M B members today. They would turn in their graves if they knew that we were allowing employees to simply give twelve weeks' notice of intent to change those conditions. We need legislation to deal with this issue, but we need legislation with teeth. We need legislation that will help us retain our hard-fought rights and conditions. Working people need to maintain their dignity. If employers can simply change conditions without fear of the law, then the law needs changing. Colleagues, support the motion and you will help people's dignity in work been stolen. Support the motion and you will hopefully be starting the campaign for fairness, a campaign for a level playing field, a campaign for justice under law. Colleagues, I second the motion. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three five three, London Region.... [Sheila:] President, Congress,, London Region. The saying, one law for them and another for us, goes back a long way. Probably nobody in Congress was alive when it was first said. However, the reasons for its conception are as valid today as they were whenever the saying was first coined. It is truly amazing that in a civilized country with a government staunchly committed to law and order, or so they say, that the tax payer, you Mr President, you fellow delegates, me, and my members, our members, are left to pick up a bill amounting to millions of pounds as a result of actions by certain employers, which are, without doubt, criminal, but not against the law. I'm talking, Mr President, about companies who, using the mask of the recession, their very best management and at the worst blatant fraud, by going into liquidation overnight, owing millions in unpaid wages, holiday pay, redundancy pay, P A Y E, National Insurance, pension and union contributions, not to mention V A T. There are provisions, subject to limits, for payments of these outstanding debts. We pay them. But this takes time, months in fact. The distress and hardship caused to redundant workers cannot be valued. However, that disc distress is greatly increased when these workers find that their ex-bosses opens another business with another name, just over the road or in the same premises. There are numerous examples of this mal-practice. The sewing factory in Buckinghamshire where twenty five workers arrived to find the door locked and the company in receivership, owing them a total of a hundred thousand pounds. The brand name of this factory was sold and is now being manufactured abroad, but an unsuspecting public still buys that brand, after having paid in taxes the outstanding debt. The engineering factory in Hertfordshire who conned their staff into working for three weeks without pay before finally going into receivership. The loyal workers were gobsmacked to find two months later their ex-boss had bought all his ex-machinery at the receivers' auction for next to nothing and started up in business again under another name in the same premises. Colleagues, there are many more examples of this crime which is not a crime. Go on a train without a ticket, or don't get a TV licence and the re [clears throat] is a substantial fine and a criminal record. Rob workers and the country of millions of pounds and get off scot-free. A tax loophole for the bosses and a tax noose for us. Congress, this motion urges a change in legislation so that, in the matter of insolvency, the employer be held liable to a much greater degree and indeed be held criminally responsible for actions involving awardance of debt liability. For the sake of all employees and re employment rights, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] There a seconder for three five three? Is there a seconder? Formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion three six five, Single Table Pay Negotiations. Lancashire Region to move... [Kathy:] Er, Lancashire Region, moving motion three six five. Th the motion's basically saying that we want to continue er our demands for harmonization of conditions pe irrespective of what peop jobs people do er in terms of negotiating, negotiating agreements. Now the er th it the resolution does say, where appropriate, and I think that obviously it it's not inappropriate, it's not appropriate, to undermine er agreements on the basis of negotiating locally, is what the resolution actually refers to so er so I can see and I would anticipate appropriate would be where it does not undermine er national agreements. Er, I also wanted to raise the issue of er the public service section in respect to er this because there's something prob perhaps not actually tackled in the resolution but equally er important I think is that it's actually getting the resources into er er down to the br branch level and er if we took this resolution literally, er what it would actually mean would be that er in har with harmonization of agreements we would be handing over er our majority on the manual workers, public service workers to, so obviously we gotta take this resolution very seriously, but consider its implications and the relevance of the word appropriate because I don't think that we want to be er handed over to come July the first er single table bargaining where we are an absolute minority and where th th that union merge that's taking place is obviously hostile to our union. So I, I move the resolution three six five. [Dick:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Seconder for three six five, formally seconded. I'm calling of the C E C. Whilst is coming to the rostrum, just make the point colleagues that it's nearly ten years since G C H Q and a massive demonstration is planned when that particular date occurs and we're gonna be very much involved in it. [Ethel:] President,, C E C, Lancashire Region. Congress, the C E C accepts motions three fifty, three five three and three six five. We mis wish to make statements on motions three three eight, three five two and we have a qualification to motion three two three. Let me begin with the qualification. Motion three two three is quite right to criticize the blatantly political proposal to remove the May Day holiday which would leave the U K as one of the few civilized countries without a day to acknowledge the labour movement. However, we regret the use of the word genocide in the motion since it is quite out of proportion [tape change]

[speaker001:] vote against it because the future of our union and the interests of our members is at risk. Let's take it and prevent a constructive relationship with the T & G developing into an unworkable alliance. I was gonna say unholy but I took it out, I thought it was a bit strong. [clapping] Let's stop wasting our time and effort on going down this road to ruin. We don't need immediate reaction to UNISON or anyone else. What we should do is show that we're the best union by effectively representing our members, and if others want to join us, then they can, but on our terms. I move rejection of the statement. [clapping] [Dick:] Southern Region? [Bob:] , Southern Region. President, Congress. The General Secretary has told us that the documen the special document on cooperation with the T & g was carefully written. It was so carefully written that I've read it three times and I don't think it says anything. This union has got a long history of, this union's got a long history of amalgamations, some conducted more successfully than others. This is not an amalgamation we're considering, it's not a merger, it's an enormous undertaking. But it's something we cannot afford not to be involved in. We cannot afford to pussyfoot around with it, we cannot afford the time not to be on the move, on the move because that's the only way our members are gonna dictate what they want. There will be a price to be paid, but it's not to be undertaken at any price. There are many sacred cows with within this organization that must be preserved, principally our regional structure, our regional financial structure, er is one of the main things that we have to preserve. My own personal opinion, regardless of what other people think about sectionalization, is that our sectional structure is something which was wi er built up, at times with difficulty and prices have been high and pay has been high. But it's something that we need to preserve strongly. The two organizations are s er so large that you can't join 'em together with two pieces of sticking plaster and three tin tacks. There must be created a new and vibrant organization to meet the challenge of the twenty first century and beyond. To our colleague from London, let me say I happen to be a boilermaker, not because I'm a dinosaur with me head in the past, but because that happens to be the occupation that I follow and that's what I am. But let me say that in saying that I'm a boilermaker, I have always been, I am now, and I will always be proud to say that I'm a boilermaker. But at the same time I'm proud to say that I'm a member of the T an er of the G M B [speaker001:] [clapping] [Bob:] a member of the G M B. I'm proud to say that I'm a trade unionist, and I'm proud to say that I'm a Socialist, and if I'm gonna remain that, and if we're gonna carry that message forward, we've gotta be on the move, we've gotta do it, we've gotta carry it forward, we can't afford to muddle our way through. We've gotta have a direction, and it's not about who gets the best jobs and who gets the best power positions, it's about dictating an agenda by the members for the members in the interests of our members, the T & g 's members and all trade unionists in this country. I support the paper. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Northern Region?... [Bill:] President, Congress,, Northern Region, supporting the special motion. And we will try to be sensible in this debate. Mr President, since nineteen twenty four and the great amalgamation which formed the G M W, it has been the ambition of many within the G M W and the T & g to complete the task and bring together the tru two great general unions to form one super union. Over the years many obstacles have arisen to halt these dreams, yet still for many the ultimate objective remains. In recent years those ambitions of merging the T & g and the G M B have received fresh support. The decline in membership, the economic recession, has damaged all the trade unions and has forced us all to examine all prejudices, to look above the sectional interests and wherever possible do all we can to protect our movement. Congress, for all these reasons, the Northern Region support a Special Report. However, at our pre-congress meeting, many reservations were expressed, the most important of which was concerned at the timing of any merger and about how the new union would be controlled. Many asked, is it the right time for the G M B to even consider merging with the T & g, particularly given the fact that over the past thirteen years the T & g has lost over fifty percent of their membership and now stands in great financial crisis. These issues are far- reaching and fundamental to our union. They require urgent attention by the C E C and must be addressed before any talks are conducted with the T & g. By supporting this Report the Northern Region does not support a merger at this time. Instead, we are asking for a frank and open debate within our own union and on that basis, and on that basis alone, will the Northern Region support the Report. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] South Western Region?... [Avril:] , South Western Region, speaking in support of the Special Statement. In supporting this document I believe that we have to look realistically to the future and recognize that one general union would benefit trade union members in the U K far better than continuing to be in competition. In recent years, cooperation, not competition, has proved that the G M B and T G W U can work together for the advantage of all our members. We know that throughout the region there has been closer contact between our two unions, hosting joint conferences and campaigns with distinct advantages for all. Conference, with unemployment on the increase and trade union membership on the decline, trade unions must move forward with wider appeal, with a new concept of unionism for the future. But colleagues, although my region supports the document, with such an important issue, caution must be our by-word as some regions have had more success than others. On this basis, the South Western Region supports the C E C Statement. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Lancashire?... [Mel:] Conference,, Lancashire Region. President, Conference, Lancashire Region supports the document, but with reservations. I'll talk about the reservations in a few minutes, but the Lancashire Region supports any amalgamation initiatives with any union which is here in the country. Indeed, that's already our policy. But, and it's but, supporting the document today does not give the C E C the green light to rush into any amalgamation with the Transport and General Union and carve up the G M B. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Mel:] Now colleagues, I've been a member of the G M B for twenty five years. I've been an activist for over twenty years in this organization. I've been coming to conference for the last fifteen years to help build the grand union which we've got today and I'm not gonna sit back and watch this carved up, for nobody, for nobody. A lot of talks, a lot of talks, a lot of consultation is the order of the day. We don't want any hidden agendas. The cards have gotta be firmly put on the table. Everybody's gotta be kept informed of the developments as the merger and the talks start to unfold. I'm gonna come back to the reservations, because if this amalgamation with the Transport and General Workers goes through, there's gonna be the inevitable casualties. Yes, casualties within this organization, and nobody in this hall today can escape the possibility of the knife. Long time officials, lay officials, staff at the organization, you might as well face up to the fact colleagues, a lot of you will have to go. There's gonna be mass redundancies within the organization, mass redundances, from the shop stewards through to the general sect. Regional... [speaker001:] [clapping] [Mel:] regional offices, regional offices is gonna close. There's only gonna be the need for one hea one one head office. We're gonna have a surplus of national officers. Some people say we've got them now. [speaker001:] [clapping] No no, just behave yourself. [Mel:] We're gonna have a surplus of organizers and, dare I say it, one of the General Secretaries is gonna be made redundant. Unless we take the cuts on board, it's gonna be a waste of time discussing the possibilities of the amalgamations in the first place. Cuts are gonna have to be made. And I want to remind you of the history of when amalgamations take place, because a number of people have touched on that very point this morning. The larger union swallows up the smaller union, and let's get it straight, the T & g are not taking the G M B over. We're talking about an amalgamation. Yes, look at a possible amalgamation, recognize the many difficulties which lie ahead, but remember also that the members and the activists within the G M B need to be kept fully informed of what the C E C are doing. I don't want to listen to any more of the media speculation telling me what's happening to our union. We have got to get involved. To finalize, colleagues, you've read the book, now you can see the vision. The invasion of the body-snatchers. The D an the T & g and the G M B. [speaker001:] [clapping] [clapping] [Dick:] Yorkshire Region?... [speaker001:] President, Congress, colleagues. Thanks, the bugger's pinched part of me speech. This Report highlights some of the changes that trade unions have already experienced over the recent years in attempts to explore a new style of trade unionism that is in tune with the needs of working people. A new style that will allow us to reach the year two thousand with a structure that is suitable for th a new century. The document details recent experiences of closer contact with the T & g. It refers to exploring the scope for reducing, or eliminating, duplication of efforts and resources. This exploration of methods aimed at reducing expenditure, while at the same time improving our service, must be continued. And if these explorations conclusively point to an amalgamation with the T & g or any other union, then so be it. But, before we consider any amalgamation with the T & g, we must ensure that our own house is in order. We must ensure that we know in which direction we are going. We must decide how the G M B will cope with dramatic changes that will have, and will take place, in the workplaces that we represent. We must examine in fine detail our own structure. How we re serve our members, communicate with our members and ask ourselves the question, do we give them what they want? Have we coped with the very different needs demanded in small groupings of workers based in small shops, or residential homes, or private sports centres, small offices or even individuals working on their own? Our traditional recruitment base, large factories, are becoming a thing of the past. Fourteen years of Tory rule has seen to that. They have butchered our manufacturing base. To attract this new category of workers to the G M B our own of servin servicing, will have to change. Quite possibly, many of these people will not be represented at their workplace by a shop steward or lay representative. They will need advice direct from the nearest G M B office. The advice that they need will in all probability be a different nature to the normal required in large workplaces. To make the G M B relevant advice is going to have to be available over the telephone. With the advances in information technology, answers to many questions could be delivered in minutes, not just on industrial issues, like how cold does it have to be before we stop work, or how heavy a load should I lift, but other questions not related to work that we have not always answered in the past. Questions related to more social issues, income tax, social security etcetera, could be answered using this system. G M B employees would need training enabling them to become experts in this field. Perhaps eventually small drop-in offices would be open in large towns or cities, offering instant face to face access. Of course, these activities would run parallel to our existing system of servicing our more traditional workforce. I note that the C E C proposes to report back in nineteen ninety four G M B Congress with an indication of what form the new union resulting from any such amalgamation might take. The Report will hopefully address many of these issues that I have raised. Proposed changes to the way in which we have traditionally served our members. Adapting to new times, releasing new concepts. This enables the G M B to say without fear of contradiction to any new partner, our house is in order, our structures are in place. This is the way forward. Colleagues, I look forward to the Report to Congress in nineteen ninety four. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Birmingham Region?... [Cliff:] Colleagues,, Birmingham and West Midland Region. The Birmingham Region fully supports the C E C document and the amalgamation with the T & g, or any other trade union that will fit in and complement our organization. It would be difficult indeed to argue against the T & g being allowed to merge into the G M B. This organization represents peoples who work in the same type of companies, very often within the same workplaces that we work. The saving in officer time, shop steward time, and the fact that we fight one another for the same people to join our organization, would be savings great indeed. The members who've joined the G M B over the past, joined the G M B because in their opinion this was the best trade union in the U K and we are very very proud of our heritage. And what we wanna say to the General Secretary and the C E C that during the talks that there is one thing which must be maintained, and that is the structure of the G M B. The T & g comes to join us on our terms. And if you thought you had a fight last year over bi-annual congresses, you wait until you try and do anything that will affect our structure in the future. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Cliff:] I'll keep this brief. I think I've made the relevant points that others may have missed. Most of what I wanted to say has already been said. The Birmingham Region supports. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Ask the General Secretary to respond, Cconference... [John:] , General Secretary, responding on behalf of the C E C. Er, perhaps just the two motions first. Two five five, the reason why the Executive asked for withdrawal was because it's moving us a bit too fast along this track, and it's moving us in a particular direction before we've had the time to think about whether that's the right direction to go. It may be that a federated structure is either the best long-term, or the best short-term, structure. But we haven't got there yet, and to give the answer before we've really considered the question is probably the wrong way round. We're not diving into anything, in fact all we're asking really is inviting you to agree that the C E C might go for a collective paddle with the T & g to see the temperature of the water. So I hope, in my remarks, and I hope in the general tone of the debate, there's enough to reassure London Region that we need to move forward at a careful pace. We'll certainly ensure that the prospect and possibility of a federated structure is one the matters which is considered by the C E C during the next few months, and will form part of the Report that comes back to Congress next year. Er, the other motion is of course pointing to so many of the changes that are taking place in our industrial society which prompt us into building a new union. I hope that two two eight can be referred so that that discussion can be taken into account in determining the needs of members in the new world, and therefore the design of the new union. Now, on the Report itself, and just a few quick points. The idea of course the vision is to create a better union, not one that is exactly like us because er, difficult for me to say so, but we have got the occasional fault here and there. Not one which is exactly like the T & g. I won't even comment on their faults because er it might be reported, but something which is better than either. So how do we do it? Well, if we're going to move forward to that sort of union, there are really only three unions in this country that can be used as the base for that new structure, that new organization. G M B is one, T & g 's another and there's a third which I'm not going to name, but most of you can probably guess. If they want to join us in this enterprise, so much the better. It would make a better spread across the number of industries and services and if, if they join us, it would help us all considerably. Several delegates have talked about care. That's absolutely right and that's why the caution is there in the statement. The danger with all mergers is that two and two ends up by equalling three. The new union is less than the sum of the other two. Our task is to try and make sure that two and two come out at five and the members get a better deal from the new union than they got from either of the amalgamating unions. Timescale. Well, there've been some silly things said about this in the Press, and one or two by our colleagues elsewhere. This is not an enterprise that can be completed in a few months. If we were just gonna bolt together the two unions then that may be able to be done in a couple of years or so, but if we're trying to build something better, then we're talking about a project that takes place over several years. And that's why it's important that there needs to be an open debate, both within the union, and there needs to be a proper flow of information from the Executive in these discussions to the branches and to the members to tell them what's going on. But of course then we get to an almost impossible task. I wish I had a pound for every time I have denied holding a meeting with the T & g. Those meetings haven't taken place but of course no-one believes it because mis-information is much more exciting than the truth. We will send regular reports. We hope the branches and members w w will believe those reports because they will be the truth, and not some of the more highly coloured statements which I'm sure will be put around from time to time. We're only suggesting a start on this project but the attitude of mind, our mind, in taking that particular step is important. Several people have been er kind enough to remind me as General Secretary, and other people, that we're all expendable. And so we are. We've really gotta start this project by thinking what is in the interests of the members. What is the best way forward for them. trade unionism has been failing in this country for the last fourteen years. There's no point in wrapping it up. We've gotta change that failure round into success. So the starting point is what is best for the members. We'll come to the personalities and the positions later on along the track, but first of all it's got to be the members. And there will be changes. There must be changes. But they will have to be the subject of consultation and debate and I guess that some of the debates will be really quite lively. So the beginning an important project. I hope that on the basis of the assurances given, two five five can be withdrawn. I hope two two eight can be referred so that the content and discussion and the Report it asks for can be part of these discussions. Support the Report and let's see if we can succeed in what must be the greatest enterprise in the trade union Movement since the nineteen twenties. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much indeed. Could London agree to the withdrawal of the two five five?... [speaker001:] , London Region. Listen carefully to what the delegates have said on the Report. I note most have got gr some reservations, quite a lot of reservations o on the issue. All I can say is when you read that document carefully it's an open cheque for the C E C. They can go and come back next year and give you a date for a merger. says no, we're not gonna do that. But still if you read that carefully it doesn't say he ca that they can't do it, the C E C. So I urge you to vote for the motion two five five. [clapping] [Dick:] C E C position is therefore asking Congress to oppose two five five. All those in favour? Against? Two five five is lost. Motion two two eight. C E C are asking for reference. Midland Region accept reference? Thank you very much. Does Conference accept reference? Thank you. Special Report. All those in favour?... Against? That's carried. Thanks very much indeed colleagues. We now turn to a number of motions on G M B services. Motion two two seven, Shop Stewards. Lancashire Region to move. G M B Services, Northern Region to move. Two three one Publicity, Liverpool Region to move. Shop Stewards, Lancashire Region, motion two two seven... , Lancashire Region, moving motion two two seven. , hang on a sec. Colleagues, if you are moving out, move out very quietly please... Congress, if I asked the question, is there a shop steward in the house, I would've been confident to say yes, but they all seem to be leaving. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] But I can safely say it today. But if I was to ask the same question throughout industry today the answer would be very different. A recent survey carried out by Labour Research shows that out of two thousand workplaces studied, there was a marked decline in unionization. During the eighties the proportion of employees in union membership was down to forty eight percent in nineteen ninety, from fifty eight percent in nineteen ni eighty four. This gloomy story is reflected in the disappearance of union representatives. Our decline is widespread, affecting workplaces of all types. What're we gonna do about it? Well, brothers and sisters, I haven't got the answer. But if this motion is successful and a working party is established, one of the conclusions that we might reach is that General Secretaries should keep their sticky fingers off shops steward's commissions. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] The seconder?... [speaker009:] , Lancashire Region, seconding motion two two seven. Colleagues, I agree with everything just said. But talk about incentives. I believe the opposite is happening. There is an attack on the benefits and commissions. If some of this year's proposals are passed our members will receive less next year than they get now. Three weeks ago I was invited down to a meeting of water workers. They were just dropped out of a union, it just happens the one we're quite friendly with at the moment. They were dissatisfied with the service and the benefits provided. I was asked, if we join your union, what will we get? I went on that morning to sell this union the benefits we provide. I recruited twenty one members that morning, a few more to come I hope. I tell you, colleagues, am I glad that meeting was before this Congress. Now, now, if I can hold on to these members depends on benefits being maintained, not decreased, that's not an incentive. Commissions, Jesus, colleagues, can you imagine two branch secretaries eh? One on ten percent, one on five, I think I know who's gonna be happy. Eh, I don't know who comes up with these ideas, I don't honest. But if that's an incentive they're not living in the real world. I often wonder if the people who come up with these proposals have any experience in recruitment. I doubt it, eh? I tell you what might be the answer, colleagues, a fortnight's compulsory re recruitment campaign for these people. Half five in a morning, with the rain going down the back of your bleeding neck, the police set upon you by the owner and the manager, eh, that'd liven 'em up. Eh? [LAUGHTER] Colleagues, they wouldn't be too keen on cutting commissions then. [clapping] Eh, I don't doubt. Now, now [clapping] sorry, I've gotta laugh at that one myself. [speaker001:] [clapping] [clapping] [speaker009:] Now, now, I know they're trying to save, I know they're trying to save money. Yeah, we know that. Problem is, we're trying to save this union. That's the difference. And I think they should have a vested interest in that. I really do. Because if we, we, the rank and file don't succeed, we're all gonna go down the tube together. Support motion two two seven. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks. Motion two two nine, G M B Services, Northern Region to move... [Bob:] President, Congress,, Northern Region, moving motion two two nine. I think our union has changed dramatically over the last few years, not to the point that our great history has been lost, but we have adapted to the world in which we live. Our education department has undergone a review which in return has produced quality materials and in turn quality stewards which meet the needs of all members. The health and safety department now known as the health and safety and environment department, is envied by other unions, and has clearly responded to its own review. Now Congress, I believe that we must adapt the considerable changes which have taken place in the last few years of Tory terrorism. Our organization is crying out for high quality information to fulfil the demands made upon both full- time and lay officials. This information is increasingly becoming of local nature, C C T and L M S make it difficult for our national research department to deal with local issues. At this point, Congress, I should add that this motion is not an attack on our research department. More cries for devolution. N H S, Local Authorities, multi-nationals, are all going down the road local bargaining. And what happens from district to district, region to region, is sometimes as far apart as John Major and the British people. We know the reason local bargaining is being encouraged, it's to lower wages and conditions and give rich financial benefits to the few. There is a rule for a central research point but again colleagues, more is needed in the regions. Our union has been, without doubt, the shining light in terms of what we offer to members. And we must continue to improve and better the information that is provided. The easiest way is to channel resources into the regions. A review by the C E C, in my opinion, would show that the agenda for the future will be local. Bargaining will be local, and research, whatever nature or subject, will have to be local to support our activists and officials. We can boast that changes not made were not necessary but without looking ahead and of course responding, we will leave our organization floundering and will lose out locally to others. Please support this motion. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Seconder for two two nine?... [Bill:] President, Congress,, Northern Region, seconding motion two two nine. Colleagues, the service sub-committee of the C E C has already initiated reviews of departments which offer support to national, regional and lay officials. The outcome of the reviews have certainly taken into account the needs of the membership which of course means a better organization. I feel the time is now right to respond to local bargaining initiatives, C C T and L M S, with a review of how the research department could best provide their services to the people at the sharp end. There is a need, more than ever, with many changes that are taking place, for information to be provided quickly and effectively, delivering to the point and value to our members. Congress, I therefore ask the C E C to immediately instigate a comprehensive review of the research department which, with doubt, without doubt has supplied excellent information in the past, but I feel should be given the opportunity to fulfil and identify local needs of regions. Our union, more than ever, needs a quick response service and hopefully this will be on the line if the review begins. Please support this motion. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion two three one, Publicity, Liverpool Region?... [Avril:] President, Congress,, Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. Colleagues, in moving this motion I am seeking the C E C to give this union the credit it deserves when achieving victory for its members throughout with a wider publicity campaign through the media, although if is on the television again tonight I think he's gonna have a higher rating than Coronation Street this week. Under the section that I am a member of, is the public sector, the largest section of the union. We need bold headline posters in colour to identify what sections they represent so that we can give our members activist up to date information in advance of other comp competition and other unions. Because of the competition we face from the new union, UNISON, we need application forms geared up to the particular industries that we require. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Two three one, seconded? Seconded, two three one? Did somebody say formally? Thanks very much. Colleagues, the C E C wish to put a speaker in in respect of motion two two nine, we're seeking reference, I call... [Mel:] I hope that wasn't an omen., Midland and East Coast Region speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support motions two two seven and two three one but refer motion two two nine. On pages one 0 six and one 0 seven of the General Secretary's Report, reference is made to the C E C organization sub-committee reviewing the work of the research department. This was done last year. The research department has followed the lines set by that review. It has shifted resources from routine servicing to policy development. Investment has been made in online financial information services. This has speeded up the flow of information on companies to the regions. A great deal of progress has been made on equal rights. Negotiators guides on disability and harassment have also been produced, as well as model agreements and other support services for officers. These have become key areas of the department's work. The department has directed much effort to European issues. The G M B's European officer has contributed a lot here and at the cutting edge in Brussels. It has been recognized that the European Directives are increasingly affecting what happens in the workplace. Examples of this are these. Acquired Rights Directive, the health and safety and the forty eight hour week. Back on the home front, bargaining is shifting rapidly from the national arena to local level. It is recognized that G M B's resources need to reflect this. This especially applies to research services because they supply the raw material with which we work, the information needed by the union to enable it to respond to the challenges which arise day by day. We must be constantly vigil and keep a sharp look out for new issues which need to be put on our agenda, so that we can keep pace with the changes that affect our members and organization. The research department is the resource that is well placed to do this, as demonstrated by the examples of equal rights and training. Similarly,ex the excellent output of the research department is essential to formulate effective responses to the ever more sophisticated management who constantly employ new techniques in human resource management and attacks on our members' pay and conditions. Examples of this are of performance related pay [Dick:] could you wind up please? [Mel:] Yes, which has sometimes been a pre-cursor to de- recognition. Therefore, the C E C is asking you to support motion two two seven, refer motion two two nine and support motion two three one. Thank you. [Dick:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Propose to take the vote colleagues, motion two two seven as being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Reference is being sought on two two nine, Northern Region prepared to refer. Agreed? Conference accept that? Thanks very much. Motion two three one, Liverpool Region, the C E C are asking you to accept it. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. I now call motion forty six, rule twenty seven, Legal Assistance. This is a C E C motion to be moved by... [speaker010:] Morning Congress, er, er speaking on er Mm moving motion forty six on behalf of the Executive. Under er rule twenty seven, the er Central Executive Council authorizes regional secretaries to provide legal assistance. Er, this usually consists of asking law firms who specialize in personal injury claims to represent our members in claiming compensation for occupational accidents and diseases. As the General Secretary's Report indicates, last year members obtained about forty million pounds in compensation, almost all of it through our regional solicitors. With the support of regional legal officers and a set of guidelines and codes of practice, we ask the solicitors to abide by regional secretaries ensuring that cases are pursued as forcefully as possible with the members interests uppermost at all stages. However, regional secretaries, despite our many wonderful skills, cannot be litigation experts and run the cases. We rely on the good advice of our solicitors who advise us on the appropriate action to take. So, when a solicitor recommends that a writ is issued, we usually, almost invariably, authorize that step, provided it falls within the guidelines. The same goes for medical reports and engineers' reports and so on. And the same also applies when our solicitors report that, having done th bes very best they can, they cannot recommend that the union continues to finance the claim. Try as we might, we cannot win every case. With the best will in the world many cases have to be withdrawn or discontinued each year. The question posed by motion forty six is this. When a regional secretary, acting on the advice of the solicitor, indicates that a case cannot be won, and terminates legal assistance under rule twenty seven, should the member be able to appeal against that decision? The C E C thinks not. Decisions to terminate legal assistance under rule twenty seven are different from other decisions made within the union, because they are invariably made on the express written recommendation of a specialist in law. Appeals against termination of legal assistance are unfair to regional committees, to the appeals committee of the C E C, and to the appeals tribunal. None of these bodies, any more than a regional secretary, is an expert in personal injury litigation. Yet, the appeal by definition, asks them to second guess [Dick:] , could you wind up please? [speaker010:] the advice of a barrister. They cannot do so and should not be asked to try. And what is the regional committee being asked to do? To refer the case back to the same solicitor who has reported that the case cannot now be won, or refer it to a different lawyer? What happens if the new solicitor also recommends closure of the case? Currently the member is able to appeal afresh. This is not sensible. President, Congress, the C E C does not lightly bring forward a motion which limits the right of appeal, but in these very special circumstances we feel it is both justified and necessary. I move motion forty six. [Dick:] Thanks very much. Is the motion seconded? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Formally seconded. Could you formally pen it? Thank you. Formally seconded. The C E C are obviously asking you to support this colleagues. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, I'd now like to extend a welcome to. is Director General of the Engineering Employers Federation. Colleague, any more interruption you can go through that door. Now, I'm telling you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Except for a three year secondment to the Ministry of Defence, most of his career has been spent in the motor industry. has been Managing Director of world-wide sales for Land Rover and Director of European... [tape ends side one and starts side two] group, he was also a main Board Director with Rover. joined the E E F in July nineteen ninety two, since when he had led the call for an industrial policy in Britain. Invite to address Conference. [speaker001:] [clapping]... [Cliff:] President, ladies and gentlemen. President, thank you for that welcome. I must confess I was surprised, curious and highly delighted when er you invited me to speak to you here today and er I'm very and sincerely pleased that you did. I am glad to be here. Nevertheless, I do feel a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor's fifth, or was it sixth, husband on their wedding night. I'm er I'm pretty clear what's expected of me but not so certain that I know how to make it sufficiently interesting to achieve your undivided attention. Now, no doubt your predecessors, and certainly mine, would be astonished to know how we can meet in this way, but I wonder whether they'd approve? My guess is that they might not. Indeed, I'm not er sure that there aren't still members of both our organizations who believe that right now each of us is supping with the devil. I don't see it that way at all but if they're right er I'd defend your invitation and my acceptance by quoting the old idiom, better the devil you know. You must be the judges of whether or not I'm the devil or at least his representative, but I hope you don't see me that way. If you do, let me strike a deal with you straight away. I won't judge you by your past if you don't judge me by mine. It's time to take off the dinosaur suits and start talking real business. I'm here because I believe that we share many objectives and because I know that there's more that unites us than divides us. I'm sure that when you adopted your working together slogan you were not thinking that it included employers. But why shouldn't it? Surely we all want to achieve the same objectives, an end to recession, low unemployment, a prosperous and fair economy, good education, training and health care. In short, a stable and caring society in which everyone can live in reasonable comfort and security and to which everyone contributes according to their means. Now I'm not so stupid to believe that we'll always necessarily agree on how those objectives should be met. But we should see where the common ground lies and, having identified it, we should build there, and if we fail to do this, we'll be failing both our groups of members. Failing future generations and failing U K P L C. And I'm sure you don't want to leave that legacy any more than I do. In this short talk, I propose to concentrate just on two things. I'd like to talk about the needs for and the potential benefits of an industrial strategy and then I'd like to tell you how the employers view trades unions today. First, industrial strategy. This is a topic which the E E F has been promoting hard since last October. We've been doing so because we believe that without an industrial strategy U K living standards and status will sink quite quickly to those of a Third World economy. We don't want that and I'm sure you don't want it either. For U K P L C to succeed in the years ahead, we simply have to agree objectives, navigate by the same map, and aim at the same goals. Now, it's mot going to be easy, not least because it will require the politicians to be more cooperative and less combative. It's simply not good enough for them to say, as they have for the last forty five years, elect us, we'll change everything and then things will be alright. We need long- term industrial policies that survive general elections and changes of government. How else will we ever have sustainable strategies for energy, for transport, or telecommunications. Had we defined a robust industrial strategy for the U K in the nineteen seventies, would we be looking back now on twenty years of consistent industrial decline? Had we a powerful industrial policy in the nineteen eighties, would we be looking back now at a crisis of industrial investment in the nineteen nineties? If the U K is to be globally competitive in the future, we simply cannot afford to perpetuate such mistakes. Now the chief purpose of an industrial strategy is to develop strategic thinking about our national industrial affairs and provide a common background against which the key decisions determining that future can be made. Without the basic information and understanding, market forces cannot be expected to function as they were intended. Now we at the E E F define an industrial policy as the development of a common understanding about the role of industry and the economy, between industry, government, finance and education and about the direction of technological and industrial progress. And by government I mean, not just the government of the day, but the opposition parties too. And it's this common understanding that many of our competitor countries possess and which we so sadly lack. Without it, the future of U K industry and of the economy as a whole, will be in danger. Let's take a brutally honest look at our current position. Our manufacturing base is in long-term decline, accelerated by the current recession. Despite our success in improving productivity in the eighties, there's an urgent need to rebuild belief and confidence in U K industry. We have a chronic trade deficit, high unemployment, and our productive capacity in manufacturing is simply too low. Now, our pivotal problem is that our appetite to consume is about to exceed our total capacity to produce. Despite the surge of investment in the late nineteen eighties, the long-term trend is towards investing an ever smaller proportion of what we earn. Our statistics show that we consume all that we're capable of producing, yet we're investing less and less in new capacity to produce. In nineteen seventy two our manufacturing sector accounted for thirty two percent of gross domestic product. By nineteen ninety two, it had fallen to just about twenty percent. And that matters because our existing capacity cannot maintain our national living standards and our balance of payments. And for too long we've been misled into believing that manufacturing and industry had become unimportant. In truth, our future competitiveness and prosperity depend more than ever before on technology and industry. The potential for future economic growth depends partly on innovations in production technology, to reduce costs and, crucially, on innovative products which create new markets in themselves. Innovative products are an essential part of the process of economic growth, providing new employment and not just in manufacturing. We must not forget that most economic growth, even in service industries, originates from technological innovation in the manufacturing sector. Service industries are rarely able to improve their productivity, service quality, or competitiveness by their own efforts alone. They usually need new and improved or more affordable equipment and the future growth of service industries such as travel, broadcasting and entertainment, and increasingly in education and health care activities and environmental protection, will depend upon continued technical innovation. Now many people seem to think that technology means machines and equipment, but machines and equipment and the software that run them are only the products of technology. Technology is about the ability to produce goods and services competitively. It's therefore about people, their skills, their knowledge and their organization for cooperative activity. It takes time for industry to accumulate expertise, to build teams, and to establish a strong market position. To achieve industrial competitiveness normally requires decades of persistent activity, not just a few years, but it can be thrown away very quickly and very easily. Strategic vision and consistency of policies by firms, by their financial investors, and by government, are crucial, and this cannot be achieved without a coherent sustained industrial strategy. The problem is the long-term industrial strategy for prosperity is not a glamorous thing. A long-term industrial strategy does not produce profits tomorrow. It will not win votes tomorrow. At least that's what the politicians used to think. Now I believe things are starting to change. The bad news, on which I expect you'll agree with me, is that across all parties, the professional politicians have been letting us down for decades. They really don't know much about industry. They don't really care enough about industry, and they certainly don't understand that our timescales are quite different from theirs. Industry certainly needs to be high on the political agenda but like Northern Ireland policy, the main parties must agree a mutual policy. Industry is simply too important, with too many people's jobs depending on it, to be a party political punchball. Let's build on the good news, that Heseltine and Cook understand the need for a national industrial strategy. Let's get industry out of party politics and make it a truly national priority. Wouldn't that really benefit your members and mine? Wouldn't that begin to ensure that the U K will be th in the premier league in the twenty first century? Now my second topic, how do employers view the trade unions today? Surprisingly you may find, perhaps not so very differently from yourselves. We've both had to cope with two recessions and undergo immense change in that process. But it's because we accepted the challenge of change, even though we may not have liked everything that went with it, that we're here today. Leaner, yes, but probably fitter too, and more competitive. Now, trade unions have changed dramatically over the past ten years. You've down-sized, restructured, looked at amalgamations and generally sought a new role, just like the E E F, just like industry. A bonanza in fact for management consultants and accountants. Er, speaking of accountants, I must tell you that one of the perks of my job is to be able to get out and about in the real world, to real companies, meeting real people. And a couple of weeks ago I was at a chemical engineering company where the managing director told me that they were now using accountants for their safety experiments instead of rats. Erm, you mi you might share my surprise when I heard that. So I asked him whey on earth they were doing it and he said, well there are three very simple reasons. First of all, there are far more accountants around now than there are rats and er we were having great difficulty in getting hold of the rats and I thought, well that sounds logical. The second er reason which he gave me, of course I should have thought for myself, he said, but the accountants more accurately represented the human form than did the rats, so that was a clear one to him, but it was the third one that really floored me, when he told me that their staff had been getting really attached to the rats. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Cliff:] Now, er, now back to the main theme, which is that you've become more business-like, in every sense of the word. You collaborate much more readily with industry. We only have to look at some of the long-term deals, the single union deals and changed working practices to see that. They haven't all, I accept, been greeted with standing ovations, and some unions have moved more quickly to accept change than others. It's the same too with some employers. But those changes were not met with the politicized and combative attitudes of the past. That's because there's a new realism. Unions have turned professional, serving their members' interests in the way that members, or perhaps I should call them customers, demand. You now offer a lot more than just negotiations on pay. You provide a wide range of personal services and you take a keen and active interest in important issues such as health and safety, child care, training, and the environment. And we agree with you on many of them. Many of the changes, sad but true, came about through recession, particularly the first one. We lost a third of the workforce in my industry, mainly in unskilled and semi-skilled posts, many companies went bust and others were cut down in size dramatically. But that recession also brought about the improvements in industrial relations which we see today. The companies and the workforces that came out of it we were far leaner, more committed, and more aware of the need for change than their predecessors had ever been. Managements took steps in a variety of forms to improve communications with employees. And unions became less sensitive about companies communicating directly with employees. Unions also started to accept the kind of deals that are commonplace today. In short, we started to work together. Now, the recession that we're emerging from right now, hopefully, has been quite different. It hit sectors and people who largely escaped before, the skilled, the clerical workers, the managers and the professionals who've been badly mauled this time, and where last time around er the service sector was expanding to mop up some of those who'd lost their jobs in manufacturing, this time the service sector too has been in deep trouble. Now, it always takes a crisis to bring people here talking to you today, and I'm very glad to be able to do so our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular indu our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular ind at their request. And we're taking a lot more time talking to the Labour Party, and not only at their request again. The big issue is rebuilding and expanding our manufacturing base to ensure that we remain a prosperous industrialized country. But there's another big issue, one that unions and employers have got to tackle to clear the ground for greater cooperation between us, and that's the still passive acceptance of the them and us syndrome. And yes, it's still there in places. I'm not sure why, because without realizing it, we've something else very much in common. We're all employees. I'm an employee of the E E F in the same way that is an employee of G M B, in the same way that managers and staff are all employees of the companies they work for, in the same way that your rank and file members are all employees, in the same way that your full time officials are all employees. When we come to think about it there are very few owner-occupiers around these days. Now, if we can work together on solving this one, we'll find it much easier to work on some of the others. And where we've got to work together right now is to ensure that the U K stays competitive. Now, I know our views on this will differ somewhat, but even the European Commission has publicly expressed its concern just recently over the levels of unemployment across Europe and about the international competitiveness of European industry compared with the rest of the world. And that's why the E E F, not alone, but together with our colleagues in engineering employers' organizations throughout Europe, German, the French, the Belgians, the Dutch, argued against the working time directive in its original form. That draft er approved by the Social Affairs Council a week ago does not allow the flexibility for companies and their employees to determine working time arrangements at local plant level, but we do question the E E C's involvement in this area. Working time, including overtime, should be decided by local voluntary agreement and I do emphasize the word voluntary. President, one final point. Remaining competitive in this world, particularly when so many countries are also in recession, means keeping a tight rein on costs. I know that many of you and your colleagues have been under great pressure during our own recession to restrain wage claims and to accept deferred or even zero settlements. But my message today is straightforward. We've got to continue that restraint even as things start to get better, and that means restraints from the top to the bottom, from board room to shop floor. The prize of long-term success is too precious to throw away for transient short-term benefit. Mr President, at the beginning of my address I said that we would see where the common ground lies. Let's find it and, better still, let's build on it. Thank you for your attention and for the warmth of your welcome today. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] thank you very much indeed for that er address. Colleagues, can we now turn to recruitment, a number of motions, motion two three six, Recruitment, Birmingham Region to move, motion two three seven, Lancashire Region to move, composite four Recruitment for the Unemployed, Midland Region to move, motion two four two, Accrued Membership Rewards, Liverpool to move, motion two four three, Recruitment Procedure, Liverpool. I call Birmingham Region to move two three six and again colleagues, if supporting speakers could come down to the front it will assist.... [John:] , Birmingham and West Midland Region, moving motion two three six on recruitment. During the seventies unions were reporting record membership. Indeed, our own region, Birmingham West Midland, had a membership in excess of one hundred thousand members. In the seventies life was rosy for all trade unions and everyone within the organization felt secure. Every cloud had a silver lining. Nothing could go wrong and all unions, especially the G M B, had the Midas touch. But in nineteen seventy nine things did go wrong. Thatcherism was born and during the last decade there has been record redundancies and bankruptcies within the U K as a whole. Unfortunately many were trade union members who lost their jobs and have not retained their union membership so have been lost to our organization. We now find G M B offering nineteen seventy style benefits to a nineteen ninety style membership. The effect on us that every year our General Secretary during the finance debate, asks Congress to approve increases in contributions. This is a situation that cannot and must not continue. It is a recipe for disaster. So what can be done to redress the balance? Two things. One, retain the membership we have. Two, recruit new members. If the G M B could reg retain the unemployed and redundant, it would give a solid base on which to work. It is no good signing up a new member and then losing two others. That's one step forward, two steps back. The result of that is crumbling foundations. The way forward then is to recruit, and the importance of new members was never more critical than it is at this time. Too many people still see union membership as belonging to a militant organization. Old images die hard. People still see unions as wage negotiators and nothing else. So, how does the G M B best get over the message to the mem non- members because unions have progressed a long way since our founder, Will Thorne, collected subs in a bucket. The need to sell our organization and the services and expertise that can be offered, such as legal advice and representation, advice on social security benefits, education. We have our own colleges and run courses on all kinds of subjects. Health and safety, where information on this wide ranging subject is available, our own department skilled in occupational pensions, advice on personal pensions through our own bank, Unity Trust. In fact, expertise in a whole range of subjects too numerous to mention. President, in this motion I have tried to outline things that could be important and useful in recruiting drive. But it mustn't just be left to the activists to recruit. Our national office must help by better media coverage, bringing to non- members attention what we have to offer and how useful it is to belong to a trade union. If the right approach is used in a positive way, success will follow. President, colleagues, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder? Formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion two three seven, Lancashire Region... [speaker001:] President, Colleagues,, Lancashire Region, moving motion two three seven. The subject of proper union organization in the taxi trade is very important to our branch and, as I'm sure you will appreciate, recruitment is difficult when little G M B recruitment literature appertains to the taxi trade. Existing recruitment literature deals with employed persons within the workplace and the values of union organization when negotiating with the employer for proper wages, workers' rights and benefits. None of the above appertain to the taxi trade as the trade is predominantly self-employed. There are three hundred and sixty seven local authorities in England and Wales who are authorized to licence and administer the taxi trade in their respective areas. Although these authorities work within the framework of central government legislation, their interpretation of this legislation is not always correct and is often reckless and to the detriment of the trade, its members' income and working conditions. The treatment that is received from councils by the trade is shoddy and inconsiderate and often disrespectful and contemptuous. The taxi trade is desperately in need of organization in order to improve conditions for the workers employed therein, and therefore national recruitment is necessary in order to begin that organization. Recruitment literature needs to convince the taxi trade that proper organization can, and will, improve their working conditions, and that by being members of a recognized trade union who have expertise in dealing with local authorities, the trade will benefit. Recruitment will ideally contain enough information to convince the taxi trade of the benefits of strong membership when dealing with representation at local level, and long-term advantages of being a member of the G M B when dealing with national issues. Working conditions of the taxi driver are extremely poor and could be likened to Victorian times, hours worked are ra rarely less than sixty per week, there is no holiday pay, no pension rights, no sick pay, and no say in which way the trade is administered by local authorities. How many in the G M B are working under similar conditions? I guess not many that are sat in this room. So you can see the need for proper organization and the need for increased support from the union? We must get the trade organized and on the way to improved working conditions. However, before these aims can be achieved, we first of all have to recruit and this, as I said before, cannot be done without literature required. If passed, this move will be the first step on the way to mass recruitment and organization within the trade. As we have heard earlier on this week in the General Secretary's Report on the financial position of the union, the money generated by this recruitment in the taxi trade will, I am sure, be greatly received. I urge Conference to support this motion. Thank you very much. [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks. Is there a seconder? Formally seconded, thanks very much. Composite four, Recruitment of the Unemployed, Midland Region to sec er move... and second. Is it gonna be formally seconded? President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite motion four. Colleagues, it is with a mixture of sadness, disappointment and disbelief that this motion is required to be brought before Congress today. The wrong that unemployed people are not allowed to join this great union is a wrong that must be righted today. There can be fewer more devastating experiences in life than to be thrust from a situation of regular employment with all the stature that this entails, to becoming an enforced member of society's underclass, the unemployed [clears throat] the situation with a total lack of dignity, ask anyone who tries to claim benefits, the situation with a loss of social standing and frustration at unachievable ambitions. We hope that sooner or later the philosophy that classes people as mere units of labour will be consigned to the dustbin of history which it deserves. Unfettered competition of dog eat dog policies must surely give way to positive employment policies and achieve what desired, a society set free from idleness. But what of today? Where can a person turn to for advice, support and encouragement? To its shame, not certainly at the moment, to the G M B. We don't want you. No job, no membership. That is the message. Politically we cannot allow this situation to exist any longer. Imagine the situation on the floor of the House of Commons. The Labour Party, in a rare attack on unemployment through John Smith, is confronted by the usual stereotype smart arse Tory Minister. His reply, but Mr Smith, even your own union does not even allow the unemployed to join. Where is the compassion? Where is the concern? What embarrassment. I understand that the C E C are asking for reference of this composite. I hope that they reach a decision sooner than later, a decision to allow the most needy members of our society to join us. Finally, you will note that the motion provides that membership at the reduced rate will not be a fiscal drag on the union. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Whilst the seconder is coming to the rostrum colleagues, perhaps I could advise Conference of what the position is at the moment concerning the programme. We're certainly going to overrun again at lunchtime today because I do want to get Section Secretary's Report in, and the, certainly the special motion on Swan Hunter Ship Building Limited, so I will take the remainder of the recruitment motions, Report and certainly the special motion. [speaker009:] President, Congress,, Midlands and East Region, seconding composite motion four. I recognize that it represents a major change in policy to even consider the idea of recruiting the unemployed, but I understand the C E C for looking for referral and we will be happy with that this year. What prompted the submission of thi the motion is the growing feeling of disaffection and desertion among the unemployed, particularly the union unemployed in this country, who many never have had a job. Once the labour movement offered hope and support to these people. They now have no ch no voice, there is only one way to counter this. We, the G M B, have got to offer them that support. The long-term consequences of the current do-nothing policy are easy to predict. We'll have ha we will have been an irrel irrelevant to them for so long that when they do find another job or even a first job, then we will have a major task to convince them of the value of trade union membership. It is in our own interests to create a profile amongst the unemployed. Think about it. An unemployed member now could be a full member in the near future, possibly in firms where we have previously had no members. There is another dimension to this motion that needs to be considered. If we continue to ignore these people, especially the young, we may be fighting them in the near fu future as they are actively being targeted by the far right British National Party and other fascist organizations that are using this sense of desertion. We will have to offer an alternative to the crap that they are peddling. We have to offer support and, above all, we have to offer hope. Fascism does not begin with the concentrations camps, that's where it ends. It begins in social conditions exactly like those in Britain now. Let's ha let's offer the unemployed an alternative. Please consider the implications of not acting on the motion very carefully. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion two four two Liverpool Region. Formally moved. Is it formally seconded? Formally referred? Motion two four three Liverpool Region?... [Bob:] , Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. President, Congress, the ex er we believe the Executive are accepting motion two four three, but we believe it should be aired at Congress today. Surely it is better that new members feel that they are members of an organization which deals with them in a more personal basis and are not just another number. Each member of our union is an individual and deserves the recognition of their status as an equal partner in our great union, both for their own self-esteem and as means of demonstrating our respect and encouragement for that person to play their role in the affairs of the union. With the establishing of sections, it is vital that the members no the member knows what avenues are open to them and what facilities and rights they have, and how to utilize them and contribute to the running of the union. With the facility of computers it is possible, as shown by other unions as well as forward-looking branches of our own, to communicate with members on a personal basis. This approach is never more important than when a person first joins any organization. You only have to have w you only have one opportunity to make a first impression er make a first impression. So why not do it then? Given that the member will be sent their membership card, it would seem a small step away to actually send them a letter addressed to them personally welcoming them to the union and advise them at the very least on the basic facilities and benefits, plus other important information, and signed by the Regional Secretary, if not by the General Secretary. To inform them of who to contact if they have a problem plus benefits, discounts etcet etcetera, with particular emphasis on accrual benefits that may be lost if membership lapses, and the possible mention of loyalty benefits that may assist them in helping to recruit and retain other members. With the system correctly set up, the whole process can be completely, completed automatically by the use of technology and it could be set up speedily upon receipt of a membership application. Surely a massive aid to recruitment and retention. My region asks you to support motion two four three. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much. Is two four three seconded? Formally seconded. Thanks very much. The C E C wish to put a speaker into the debate. I call... [Bill:] President, Congress,, Lancashire Region, speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C are asking you to support motion two three six, support motion two three seven, seek a referral of composite four, referral of motion two four two, and ask you to support two four three. Colleagues, motion two three seven calls for the union to recruit within the licensed taxi trade. But whilst there's clearly a high degree of non-unionized labour in the trade, the union needs to assess the potential benefits of committing resources in this area, given the transient, often temporary nature, of the workforce. The C E C are to seek a referral of composite four. We already reviewed our position on the recruitment of unemployed people as outlined in a new concept of trade unionism, prepared and, specially prepared, for this Congress. We do not wish to pre- judge this review and therefore ask for the composite to be referred. We also ask that motion two four two be referred. The motion contains several interesting ideas which the C E C would wish to examine in its review. Therefore, to summarize Congress, the C E C are asking you to support motions two three six and two three seven, seek referral of composite four and motion two four two for the reasons outlined. And finally ask you to support motion two four three. Thank you. [Dick:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Propose to take the vote Conference of motion two three six. As has indicated, we are seeking acceptance. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Two three seven is accepted with a statement. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite motion four er reference is being sought. Does the Midland Region agree? Agreed. Conference accept that? Thanks very much. Motion two four two. Reference is being sought. Does the Liverpool Region agree? Agreed. Thanks very much lads. Conference accept that? Motion two four three. You're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried... [tape change]

[Dick:] one of our newest section secretaries to present his first Report to Congress. I'm sure it's your wish to congratulate on his appointment and our best wishes for the future. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dave:] Well thanks President for that welcome and thank you colleagues, Congress, for the welcome that you've given to me. National Office, moving pages hundred and fourteen to hundred and twenty four including Report. The engineering industry has continued in decline for the past year. The lack of an industrial policy by this government, reliance on market forces, and short-term investment policies have undermined an industry at the heart of the British economy. The most worrying feature of this decline has been the failure of the industry to train people. That's why the unions in engineering have developed a training for engineering strategy. Extensive consultations have taken place and are now complete, and the document is ready for publishing. I hope that employers, government and trainers themselves will treat it as a serious attempt by the trade unions to contribute to the debate on training for the industry. The ship building industry has also been in decline for a decade or more, and in each year's report has documented well that decline. A decline that's under circumstances when we're still an island nation, still dependent upon shipping to impor export and import most of our goods. It must be acknowledged there was between nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty four a slump in the ship building industry followed by a slump in world sea-borne trade. However, in nineteen eighty four the market began to improve until, in nineteen ninety one, we saw record orders placed and, although that's levelled out, orders still outstrip production. Along with these improvements in the market, we see demands for vessel safety, concern for the environment, all oil spillages have highlighted the need to have modern ships with the right design. Coupled with this, an increased exploitation of marine resources, fishing industry, gas and oil extraction, supplemented by aqua- culture and seabed mining. All creating for the next decade and beyond opportunities for a ship building industry. Are we, the United Kingdom, going to be able to exploit those opportunities? Has the ship building industry cooperated, with Europe perhaps, to enable it to be at the forefront? Has the government got a policy to assist? Has it a policy to enable the naval shipyards to diversify into merchant ship building? The answer's no. Instead, we're seeing the cynical deliberate closure of Sunderland ship builders, the refusal to allow Camel Laird's retained ship building on the Mersey by re-zed designating them to allow the intervention and, of course, we've seen the employees encouraged to enter into fight to death competitions which have weakened the industry, competitions that have clearly caused the receivership of Swan Hunters. Before that contract for the helicopter support ship was awarded, I think we all knew well that whoever didn't get it was in trouble, and that of course is why we never took sides. But I think we were surprised of the speed of the receivership at Swans on Tyneside. So the fight is on to save ship building on Tyneside. Firstly, I must pay re tr tribute and say how proud we are at the way that our people in Tyneside have responded to the crisis. [speaker002:] Hear hear [Dave:] Shop [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dave:] shop stewards, officials, MPs and the community have worked at hundred mile an hour going to wherever necessary in order to save ship building on Tyneside and Swan Hunters. We as a union, along with the S N C of the Confed do, and should, give unqualified and total support to this campaign. And as a first step we should demand three things essential to give any chance to retain ship building on Tyneside. The three frigates must be allowed to be completed by Swan Hunter. The government must give the necessary guarantees to enable the Omani order to be placed. The intervention fund must be available to enable Swan Hunters and other naval ship yards to diversify into merchant ship building. This would have saved Camel Lairds and it's a must to save Swan Hunters. Colleagues, I commend this report to you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you. Turn to Report, page one one four, one one five, one one six, one one seven, one one eight, one one nine, one two O, one two one, one two one, one two two, one two three and one two four. Colleagues, I now call the mover of the special motion Swan Hunter Ship Building Limited to be moved on behalf of the C E C and seconded by. [Nick:] President, Congress,, Northern Region, moving the C E C's special motion on Swan Hunter. If only could have stayed behind to hear this being said, he could've taken a lot of messages back to his friends in government. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nick:] President, there are two types of swans in our country, one totally protected by our government, the other faces extinction by the same government. The swans that we are concerned about build ships on the River Tyne. Congress, since the middle ages, since the nineteenth century, Swan Hunter has played the leading role in British maritime history. During those years it has built over two thousand seven hundred ships, including four hundred war ships for the Royal Navy. They've developed a reputation as one of the world's leading ship builders. President, since Swan Hunter returned to the private sector in nineteen eighty six, workforce, management, trade unions, have worked together to produce the world's finest war ships and one of the world's finest yards. Millions of pounds have been spent on research and developing, flexible working practice have been introduced. A model for any manufacturing industry. Swan Hunters is not, as the Trade and Industry Minister described, an out of date sunset industry of yesterday. No Congress, Swan Hunter is a modern hi-tech, high skilled, state of the art, manufacturing facility. A modern ship yard, built on the hard work and the dedication of Tyneside workers. The same workforce, Mr President who, during the Falklands crisis, worked day and night to produce the ships needed by the British Navy. The same workforce, Mr President, that today, despite years of hard work, dedication, and commitment, stand to lose all. The result of yet more Tory neglect and economic mismanagement. Congress, the empoy employment consequences of Tyneside, should Swan Hunters be allowed to close, would be disastrous, a catastrophe from which I believe Tyneside might never recover. Some experts have already predicted that job losses could exceed six thousand. That, remembering, in an area that already has the worst unemployment record in mainland U K. President, the prospect for Tyneside should Swans close, is too bleak to contemplate. The workforce at Swan Hunters have never asked for any special privileges, they've always asked for a fair deal on a level playing field. But what they do ask for, and what we should be calling to this government to honour the existing contracts at Swan Hunters, to allow the workers at Swan to complete the work on the three vessels already in the river. In addition, the Northern Region calls for a full open, and more importantly, independent, investigation into the tendering arrangements for the L P H. We demand a full unequivocal commitment from this government that Swan Hunters be given a fair chance to tender for future Navy work. President, the whole economic af future of Tyneside stands at this minute in the balance. In fourteen years the Northern Region alone has lost over two hundred thousand manufacturing jobs and when a fella visiting us today says that we're all workers, I remember telling me that, that we di might eat all out the same trough, but by the hell they have bigger spoons than we have. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nick:] President, the Northern Regions a dismal future and Congress, our demands are simple. We call upon the government to demonstrate the same dedication and commitment as the workforce at Swans. We call upon them to demonstrate their commitment to manufacturing, to quality skills, to engineering excellence, to demonstrate that commitment to ship building a at Tyneside before it's too late and, you know, they can do that this week. They can do that by announcing the decision on the orders from Oman. They can do that on the decision that the frigates will be finished on the Tyne. Congress, I urge you to support the Swan's workforce, support the people on Tyneside, and do all that's in your power to retain ship building on the Tyne. Support the C E C's special motion and before I move that Congress, I'll accept in anticipation, that the General Secretary will double the pocket collection that we have outside the door. Congress, I move. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed. The General Secretary's not here, so I'll agree to it. Right. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Frank:] , C E C Technical Craft Section, seconding the C E C Motion on Swan Hunter Ship Builders Limited. I must start off by highlighting a sad position in my o my own region, and that's the demise of Camel Laird, another once-great ship building company. Camel Lairds is now owned by B S E L, who two and a half years ago announced the run down of Camel Lairds unless another buyer was found. Next month, July, that run down will be complete. How ironic that B S E L are also the company that have won the order that Swan Hunters were hoping for to keep their workforce employed. Because that order was lost, Swans are now in the dire position that the motion highlights. It's a position that's only too familiar to myself as an ex-member of the Camel Laird workforce. Two thousand six hundred direct jobs and another estimated two and a half thousand indirect jobs will have been lost in the last two and a half years by the closing of Camel Lairds. Lairds, like Swans, was designated a Naval yard and therefore intervention fund and for the E E C. With the advent of the peace dividend, those yards, designated Naval yards cannot compete with the merchant yards who receive the intervention fund, which is basically a subsidy that allows European yards to compete on a level plain with shipyards in the Far East. Two and a half years ago Camel Laird started a campaign to gain access to the intervention funding and because of the total lack of any sort of industrial policy by this government, and their refusal to support the Camel Laird application to the E E C, next month will see the closure of Camel Lairds which will lead to a loss of skills that amounts almost to a criminal act on the part of this government, who seem prepared to allow this country to become a skill-free zone in order to drive down wages and conditions to a rate comparable with some Third World countries. It would appear from investigations that this government in nineteen eighty four did a deal with the E E C to close down shipyards in future years, for which they received millions of pounds from E E C funds, and they never used them for the purposes they were supposed to be used for. This led to the closure of N A S, N E S L. You may have seen the T V programme on this piece of industrial genocide. And for the same reason Camel Lairds could not gain intervention funding. For two and a half years Camel Lairds have unsuccessfully campaigned for intervention. Now we have Swans caught in the same trap. They can't afford such a long delay or they will become like Camel Laird, an extinct breed. This gov this government should support an application for all British yards to be given access to the intervention funding or shortly there will be no major ship building facilities at all in the U K, and hopefully no John Ma the i John Major either. I therefore second this motion and ask Congress to support. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Put the emergency motion to the vote. All those in favour? Against? It's carried unanimously. Thank you very much colleagues. And, as mentioned colleagues, there is to be a bucket collection for Swan Hunters at lunch time. Please give as generously as you can. Still on the theme of collections, the Yorkshire Region have donated five hundred pound to the Burnsall strikers and also to the Crawley members in dispute. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] A message from Bill, General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union. [reading] Dear colleagues, it is my pleasure to send fraternal greetings to all delegates at the G M B Conference from the Executive Officers and Members of the T & G. In the twelve months since I last sent you our good wishes much activity has taken place within our movement. Our two unions have shown the value of working closer together to pursue our common aims and we look forward to continuing our association. We send you our best wishes for a successful Conference. We hope your debates prove interesting and decisi decisive in furtherance of your own policies and in addressing some of the problems which we face in our society at large. We are all only too painfully aware of the needs of working people in the difficult times which we face and I know their interests will be uppermost in your minds. Best wishes to you all. Bill Morris []. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dick:] Early this morning colleagues, you may recall that from the South Western Region came to the rostrum and made a point concerning Black Wednesday. What he's asking for is that any references to that particular disastrous day is not referred to as Black Wednesday, but in fact as Devaluation Day. Some pe it's given offence to some people. So, if we could remember that, that would be appreciated. Colleagues, immediately after the close of this particular session, there is to be a meeting in the conference hall within the Guildhall, on the National Trade Union Laws on National Tamp Tampon Alert Day, and there's to be a special video which will last approximately eleven minutes. Colleagues, you can purchase, you can purchase, CDs of all the various different sessions and indeed all your own speeches if you want to remind you th how good they are or how bad they are. You can purchase them in the hall. Conference stands adjourned till two P M. Thanks very much.

[speaker001:] the afternoon's business as printed in the programme... and I call Neil to give his national officer's report. Neil. Colleagues, settle down please. [Neil:] President, congress... Neil, national office... speaking to the general secretary's report... pages one two five, one four three. Congress... it has been my sad misfortune to encounter some of the most hostile employers over the past year that would make the grey hairs that I've got fall out. But, having said that, we have tried in the Ministry of Defence... where market testing has been the order of the day... to say that it's confusing, that would be being polite, Mr Chairman. There is utter and total confusion and anything that stands still... they used to say they would paint it in industry... they now say market test it... and they do admit to us that the end object does not necessarily mean complete contractorization or privatization, but at this particular moment in time [speaker001:] we have found that the opposite has been the situation. And within the Home Office and the prison service, which was scheduled to become an agency on the first of April this year, an appropriate date perhaps, Mr Chairman, but... we are still in the quagmire of getting arrangements which are suitable and protecting our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular industry. We do have the Wolfe report... but unfortunately... not for the want of effort, the Wolfe report is turning out like the Black report and others and I don't say that because there was a gentleman who done a report Black and it is gathering dust, the Wolfe report is on the same shelf, I believe. But we will endeavour to represent our members and to push for... their... ordinary rights, their just rights... more than just rights they, are earned rights and should be afforded to them. Within Royal Ordnance... which I have resumed the responsibility for... I don't know, Mr Chairman, I convened a meeting of the convenors to introduce myself and to familiarize myself with the movement and the industry... only for the company to announce thirteen hundred redundancies, as we were meeting. That has been further added to and we do have problems at Bentley... Chorley... Blackburn... although Blackburn at this particular moment in time may be easing the particular pressure but we are all suffering from the restraints within the government industry. We will endeavour to continue to represent the members and to project their needs and desires towards the company. But the company are saying to us, like the M O D, we've had the ending of the Cold War... things are now changing... there is not a demand. I don't know if the situation in Germany is as stable as people are making out... I do not know if the other continents, or the other countries within the European continents, are of a stable nature when we look at what is happening in certain parts of the previous... Russia... or the states of the U S S R... there is complete and utter confusion and atrocities being perpetrated on people within those. Within the car industry and the associates of it we also have the problems of the recession affecting those particular industries. We do have, and I would like people who... do be utilized by Ford... I would love to go to Ford and say don't utilize this particular company. I'm prepared to do that... but... unfortunately... colleagues... I've forgotten. We cannae do it, the legislation does not allow us to do it. The Tory legislation does not allow us to do it. Just like it does not allow us to sing an old song that was sung often, Show Me The Road And The Miles To Dundee... perhaps that's the song we should be singing just now... in these particular circumstances... and be it the day, maybe even in Portsmouth this particular day. But Portsmouth also has its problems within the F M R O and it was with interest walking round the town last night, I saw that Charles the Second fortified this town to a greater deg extent using. I wonder... and I have grave doubts and reservations, that Charles the Third will have a Portsmouth and a naval base to fortify. I do not know, I have great reservations on that as long as the policies that have been perpetrated by this government remain. I had... with the permission of the deputy general secretary... leave of conference yesterday... I was in London to be told of a further nine hundred redundancies... from a company that a short time ago was telling us, and if you look at my report you'll have to delete the first paragraph where they had secured orders and the security of our members' employment... only to be told yesterday, nine hundred will go. They will be volunteered but they will be compulsory. We asked if there was any possibility... due to the loyalty of these people... if they could get extra severance pay. We also asked if we could get the same consultation period... because they are breaking it up at the four sites... and some sites will get thirty days' notice... others will get the ninety days. And they gave us a sheet. They gave us a sheet. Team one... they want to put out more in the first division... and, I could not be party to that team one and it was an atrocity to use such terminology. We do meet again with the company tomorrow to try and further progress the matter and hopefully, but my big fear is, is that it is a two-stage closure... that they will go for nine hundred this time... then we'll find that useful, expensive equipment will be transferred to Sweden. I have great fears and reservations on that particular point. So... we also have within the steel industry which like all other industries is going through the turmoil of redundancy and privatization. Privatization... what is privatization? Well... if you want facts and figures on it we can give you it... but I'll tell you what it's meant to... I'll tell you what it's meant training service... I can tell you what it's meant to the royal dockyards... which we've got to talk about yet... from thirteen thousand, in some instances you're down to five. So that's what privatization is about... and how do we stop the privatization... how do we really represent the members... by attacking the legislation that prevents us from acting in a spontaneous manner, which will assist our members in their hour of need. That is where we're going. The T & G's not our enemy. The Tory government and their legislation is our enemy and that's got to be attacked. So... on the royal dockyard there has been quite a number... ah, of rumours circulating this conference this morning, there has also been on the television and the radio, statements by one Gordon. I have no later than half an hour ago contacted my office and there has been no official communication re any decision being made on the royal dockyard and the capacity... none whatsoever. So, if someone's playing games... well whatever games they are... please stop it... there are people, human beings involved here who should not be used in the political fashion that's being used. So please come away from that particular avenue. And the local authorities also we have... government policy again... we have the situation that Wage Councils which have agreed increases for our members within the prison service, don't know whether they'll be allowed to implement them because they are over the one and a half percent. The National Health has told us one and a half percent... if we want an extra day's holiday, if we want an extra day's holiday, then we would have to take three days, we could take two, that would leave us with half a percent. If we took three, we were left with none. So... I'm sorry Mr Chairman if the report is doom and gloom but that is the situation that does prevail... we will endeavour to work to the best of our ability, or the lack of it... but please remember the constraints that we are under and if we have got any views, to stand, and if we do want to help the people in Dundee and we do want to stop the government pilfering the British Rail pension scheme... [Dick:] Neil, can you wind up please. [Neil:] to the tune of four and a half billion, then look towards the legislation that's been inflicted upon us by the Conservative government. Thank you. [Dick:] Thanks very much, Neil. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Page one two five... one two six... one two seven... one two eight... yes. [Derek:] Derek, Southern region, page one two eight. This government is just playing one yard against the other... and the only ones to suffer are our members and their families. We see jobs being lost every week as our employers cut back to try and outbid each other not in the interests of defence of this country but purely because of political dogma. In Devonport, if Devonport was to close, which is possible... as it will become uneconomic with further cuts in its workload... the impact on the economy would be... horrific. Both direct and indirect jobs would be lost... some twenty eight thousand in all if the yard were to close. The south west would be an industrial desert dependent solely on tourism. Any political decision that could lead to the closure of either Devonport or Rossythe would also put the defence of this country at risk. We need a properly thought out defence policy... we are a maritime nation... we are in a maritime city... we need a strong navy... we need a strong defence. We must keep both the dockyards open together with the naval base in Portland, in Portsmouth. On T V this morning, as Neil has said, Gordon M P, was seeking a meeting with the Prime Minister. We must allay those fears for both Devonport and Rossythe and Neil, can we have an update and what the G M B position will be to that response? Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] One two nine... one three O... one three one... one three two... one three three, one three four, one three, yes... [Len:] Les, Midlands and East Coast region. President, congress... Neil, page one three four... you say in your report and I quote, [reading] Sadly, T U P E does not cover pensions, although at this time there is some grey area []. Neil... T U P E regs do apply... as the joint G M B T T T & G document clearly outlines. With the case of Perry versus Intec... and the eternal attorney general has confirmed to Gillian that T U P E must protect both past and present, future pension rights. Also Neil, local authorities engineering craft workers... very small number of our members... but there is no mention of this section in your report. This section is in the public services section. In June ninety two the C E C recommended that local authorities manual, building and civil engineering, and engineering craft workers report to one forum for ninety three. As all local authority reps know... this did not happen. Did the C E C know it had not happened? At the engineering craft conference at Congress House, thirteen reps attended... four of these were officers. I would like the assurance from Neil... and the C E C... that the local authority public services section will meet in one forum for ninety four... as in the C E C report. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much. One three five... one three six... one three six. [speaker001:] President, colleagues,, South Western region. Neil... I wish to draw your attention to the Ministry of the Defence guard force. I drew this item to the attention of congress last year... since when my branch has lost thirty four members to new caps... including one who was making good progress and had become a national delegate. I have copies of letters between yourself and John of new caps, dated the twenty fourth of February. Have you been able to establish whether or not Bridlington has been breached... and if Bridlington has been... what are you going to do about it to get that decision res reversed. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] One three seven. [Owen:] President, congress... Owen, Midland and East Coast region. Neil... could you tell me what's happening to the apprentices... in P S A... as work staff been put out to grass... I hope they aren't. [Dick:] One three eight... one three nine [Les:] Les, G M B Scotland. Congress... Neil... I raised the subject last year about nuclear waste and what was the position as far as Rossythe was concerned. Now, we're in a delicate position as we all have heard this morning from our colleague at the Devonport dockyard. Rossythe is no different... we stand to lose eighteen thousand plus training facilities for the whole of Scotland... but we've just been told of recent that a new nuclear waste dump is to be built at Rossythe... could you tell us if this is a forerunner for the subject of closing Rossythe down... with a loss of all these jobs? Thank you. [Dick:] One three nine... one four O, one four one, one, yes... [Peter:] President, congress, Peter, Midland and East Coast... one four one, section seventeen, British Steel. Neil... for two congresses I've come here... and I spoke to your predecessor about team working and the team working concept... and I told th your predecessor that the steel union was about to takeover our craftsmen and our general workers. They are now at it. I hope you and Tony now in within the N treble C get a grip of this cos we're not gonna let anybody else go. [Dick:] One four one... one four two and one four three. [Hywel:] Hywel, Liverpool, North Wales, Irish region. Neil... can I ask you haven't have got on my eyes looking for it, but I can't see any reference at all in your report to local authority engineering craftsmen. I've looked at report... can't find anything. I believe you're the officer that's responsible for it... can I ask why there was nothing in the report. Can I ask... is it because it was too small a group, or is it because no one can make up their mind where they belong? I can say the pitters in my branch will certainly be asking questions when I get back. [Dick:] Okay, one four three... Neil, have you finished writing those down? You've not got many this year. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] Derek... can we take on the dockyards, Derek, I did indicate the situation that half an hour before speaking to congress my office has not been told officially by M O D of any change of a decision being made. The position of the G M B is a retention of a true facility... that is quite clear... that was the decision of this conference some three years ago, moved by your own region and seconded by Scotland. I have worked towards that and will continue to work towards that policy, which is our union. For page one three four... and T U P E, yes, well... we have done quite an extensive document, there's been a lot done about T U P E in the public sector... we've done it in the government sector and given guidelines, and T U P E, while it is like you rightly say, a step forward, it's not the total answer... we need something better, but it does level out the playing field that the cowboys can find it difficult in and we... as a union... are advocating to our members where there is a transfer taking place, whether there's a change to your employment... challenge it and we will support that challenge with the necessary legal interpretation if so. I know your local authority craftsmen and... I have... as you're aware, just taken over the responsibilities and that is the first meeting that I had, that was why also there's nothing in the report, because I thought I had a conference of people I had not spoken to the shop stewards... I didn't have a f a feedback prior to the closing date of... the report being concluded for print... so I do and I have [speaker001:] spoken with Mick since our conference and we will further discuss the matter, I don't envisage any great problem in what you've said. I... there is a small difference of course, the C E C did say it, but there is dif different negotiating procedures... as you're, you are aware... but Mike and I are talking about that and I'm sure we can overcome it. I, David on your guard force and the thirty four members... yes, you, you rightly mentioned the correspondence with your... at this moment in time I have had no reply... I have sent another letter which you have not received as yet to, indicating that if they do not return those members... then we will proceed to Bridlington. Have no doubt in your mind about that because we did not take one of our representatives to negotiate with the guard force to enhance your and their membership... that is not the ball game... I'm not playing it and we won't do that... and you can rest assured we will pursue it to Bridlington if need be. Owen and the apprentices... Owen... like everywhere else... the apprentices and the cutback has been. The apprentices who are there under an apprentice contract unfortunately secure employment for the period that you're contracted to... after that, you are in the situation of dog eat dog, dare, dare I say. What we are endeavouring to... and the company has not as yet went out and dispersed of apprentices willy-nilly. Hopefully we can retain that particular situation. Les and the nuclear waste... again Les, there has been no indication whatsoever... in respect of being notified officially by the M O D, as to Rossythe being used as a nuclear dump... none whatsoever. People have suggested that in respect of fifty seven, conference they don't know what fifty seven is, but I'm quite sure you do, Les. So we can only... concentrate our efforts and what we have been concentrating our efforts on is not turning any place into a nuclear dump, then we have been concentrating on our union's policy which is the retention of all the facilities and job security for our members. So we have no knowledge on that... and Peter and team working... and... Tony is in the, the body of the hall... we had quite an extensive discussion over a period of time but perhaps cumulating last Friday, a week last Friday, on the N treble C and we are calling a special lay- delegates conference on the first of July in Sheffield, with one item on the agenda... team working. We are, like yourselves, equally despondent with I S P C and the attitude that they are employing. But you will be receiving notification of the said meeting taking place... and my colleague from Northern Irela Wales Northern Ireland, perhaps if you could have a chat with me in the corridor, I may be able to do something which can help you alleviate the sa situation between us. [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed, Neil. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, before I call the mover of motion four one six on South Africa... I'd like to read out a message from the African Nafr National Congress. It's addressed to the general secretary, John. [reading] Dear friends, comradely greetings to your annual conference from the African National Congress. Over many years we have together worked towards the day when all the people of South Africa are able to vote for a government of their choice and be in control of their own destiny. On this path we have seen the rise of the congress of South African trade unions... and the African National Congress, to positions where they claim their rightful places in the future democratic, non-racist, non-sexist South Africa. This new era will usher in a period of restructuring and reconciliation... when South Africans' international relationships can be based on mutual advantage and not on conditions of slave labour, bred of racism. Although a tentative date for the first democratic elections has been put forward, we are not yet, not yet there... and our campaign for free and fair elections for a democratic constitution needs your urgent support. Together we can lay the foundations for a new South African government... of national unity led by the A N C. We wish your conference a successful outcome... Mendy, Chief Representative, the A N C mission to U K and Ireland []. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, I now call the mover of motion four one six, standing in the name of the London region, South Africa. [speaker001:] President, conference, Ed, Westminster Touch branch, London region. Brothers and sisters... it's only too easy... er, when we go through our union lives to become obsessed with the problems that we face. Every day we have battles with employers to make sure that we have decent working conditions for our members in this country. However... when we look outwards and see what is happening in South Africa to trade unionists there, the scale of our problems is put into a truer perspective. Joining a trade union in South Africa and being active within that union can lead to dismissal... physical violence... imprisonment and even death. The black activists' struggle for human rights within South Africa is one that this union must support... we must look to support their unions in every way we can with both resources... training and financial support. The changes that have been introduced into South Africa... forced upon the white minority government by both international pressure but also by the magnificent work at the A N C in Cosatu... must be supported as well but we cannot treat South Africa as anything but a pariah... a, a, a national pariah... until we see one person one vote, and a black majority government in South Africa. This union, colleagues, must support and strengthen links with South African trade unions. As we support them... so in the future, I am certain, as they have in the past, they will support us. In this way we can move forward to true international solidarity with our comrades within South Africa. I urge you to support this motion. [clapping] [Dick:] Is the motion seconded? Formally seconded. The C E C are recommending you to accept motion four one six... all those in favour... against... that's carried. Colleagues, it's now my very great privilege on your behalf to extend an invitation to Abdul, the honorary secretary of the Anti-Apartheid Movement, to address congress. In nineteen fifty eight... Abdul, along with a number of his colleagues, formed the Anti-Apartheid Movement... we're very privileged today to have somebody of the stature of Abdul at our particular congress. A tireless worker... not just in Britain... where he performs the task of honorary secretary of the Anti-Apartheid Movement, but throughout the world... throughout the world. He is indeed an international figure and is respected so and he's one of the few people to have actually addressed the Security Council on the question of apartheid... and has indeed spoken at many United Nations conventions on the question of apartheid. I can think of no other person in the Anti-Apartheid Movement who knows more and is more up to date on the current situation in South Africa. Colleagues, it's my pleasure to welcome on your behalf, Abdul. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Comrade chair, comrade secretary general of the conference and the G M B... and if I my say so, comrade delegates, and I should explain in these changing times... the use of the word comrade. I do not mean it in any ideological sense... or historical sense or to be provocative... but it's very, it's with very deep feelings that I speak to you today because... you may not understand it... but for me, after thirty three years in exile I was able to return to South Africa in nineteen ninety one... and one of the first activities to which I was invited was the annual meeting of Cosatu And so when we say comrades in that sense, and thank you as comrades... we mean it as comrades in arms. You see... we cannot always help who our brothers and sisters are... but we can make alliances of people on issues of liberation and freedom that goes beyond that narrow family relationship and develops into a very solid alliance that helps to change situations. So it's a very great honour and privilege for me to address you today... because at the end it may be difficult for you to understand... but when I return to South Africa, and forgive me for speaking personally... I also realize the full meaning of the support of British trade unions and the labour movement and the churches... because it was because of your political... material... and particularly in the case of the G M B, financial and material support... that it gave us the means to do what some of us wanted to do about our country and our situation, and bring about change if we could peacefully. So I also want to thank you very deeply... from the innermost parts of my heart, for having given an opportunity for some of us to work in Britain... to have accepted us and worked with us... to build the solidarity movement that brought the apartheid regime to its knees. So I think our victory in South Africa which isn't complete... is also in that sense your victory... and in this sense there is tremendous affection and love for all of you in the hearts of the oppressed people of Southern Africa and Africa. I don't just say it, because time is valuable and I should explain what's happening in the region... but I think it's also very important to convey this to you after your years and decades of solidarity with the liberation struggle. Friends, as we speak today about South Africa, we speak about transition... transition from February nineteen ninety when De Klerk said that he would change things... and he did change things and they were dramatic changes... and then we had apartheid with a liberal dispensation. The A N C and other organizations were unbanned... there was free activity... people can meet others across the colour line if they so wish... but basically the apartheid structures are in place still. And let us remember that as De Klerk himself said... they changed not because as he said, we wanted to but because we had to. And they had to change because apartheid was at a dead end... the people of South Africa were continuing with their struggle... the country was ungovernable... and there stood the prospect of more sanctions which would bring the noose around the apartheid system. And most important of all... and it is often forgotten... is that in South Africa the regime and the western powers were facing a real hot revolution... and that hot revolution could have destroyed the country for all its people. And so when we came to the negotiation process so to say, it was a stalemate. The regime wasn't defeated... although it had come to a dead end... and the liberation movement did not conquer the situation although they made government impossible. So out of that stalemate negotiations have begun... and they've gone on for three years. So we have, in effect, a situation where the regime wants to change without changing... and that often happens in power relationships. Mandela is free... he's out of prison... he can address the British parliament, the United States congress, the parliaments of the world... he addresses the whole world through television when we held those concerts for him at [speaker001:] Wembley... and yet he still does not have the vote. Meanwhile... as my visits to South Africa showed me in such a traumatic and depressing way... the conditions of the majority have got worse... there's economic recession... lay-offs, high inflation rate... and growing violence... more people have been killed in South Africa in the last two years than in any previous two years that you look at. And this violence has been unleashed from state structures... and it's not an accident that the happen to be mainly the A N C... or as recently you saw, the general secretary of the communist party, Chris... or Cosatu leaders or church leaders, or the other pattern of violence... indiscriminate killing of people on the trains. I came on a train here today from London... in South Africa if you are black and you got on a train... it wouldn't be as comfortable and there would be crowds in it... but you wouldn't know whether you reached the other end... because at some station a group of people would get on and shoot you indiscriminately, and get off again... leaving that scene of massacre. To destabilize like has done in Mozambique, trained by South Africa... and that pattern is rife in South Africa today. The regime of course wants to keep the old order... the A N C and freedom-loving people want a new order and a quick change... but how do you mo move to that situation when you also have the right wing and the security forces and elsewhere not wanting change? How do you, friends, change a structure which is still the old structure with a civil service, a security and everything that goes with it... and move to one of democracy and justice... because if you move too rapidly... and you do not make concessions... and you ignore the terrible power of the right wing with all the military might at its disposal... you can very easily create in South Africa... a Lebanon... or indeed, yes, a Yugoslavia. And so the A N C has to make sure that while it works for the aspirations of its people... it must also protect the country... and I'm afraid in this context it means it has through negotiations and other means also conceded... made concessions... in order to save the situation... and the only organization that is now working for the national interest... even losing its own supporters in the country... is basically the A N C... and it's quite a remarkable thing to see that leaders are prepared to l lose political support because they have to make sure that the country doesn't. We now have a general date for elections in nineteen ninety four... and when that date is formally agreed, many sanctions will go... and we're already preparing because Cosatu and the South African Council of Churches believe that there should be a code for investments... so that investments go to help uplift people... and indeed tomorrow I have to go to Holland for exactly such a conference called by the World Council of Churches and the South African churches. Then after the elections, the elections are to have a constituent assembly... and that constituent assembly will work out our new constitution in the country... and from that constituent assembly we hope also to form a national government of unity, of national unity... and that'll continue maybe for five years in order to give stability to the country... and this of course also means a concession... because it's a concession to the existing power structures to have some kind of stability. And when we say, or the A N C and democratic organizations say, that you need a five percent vote to cross the hurdle to get in to the assembly... and then you, you, you're a member of their parliament so to say... and then what do we hear? We hear Ian Carter say that's unfair... and I'll let you into a secret... Baroness Chalker then responds... interferes in these negotiations and says five percent is too high a figure. Why? Because and Ian Carter can only manage three percent. So democracy is a dangerous exercise when it means we empower the majority against minority groups that have rested on the support of the regime. Then after the elections... or rather during the elections, we have to make sure that they are free and fair as you've just heard... and we from Britain and the Anti-Apartheid Movement has to be vigilant to ensure that we have international monitors from the U N, from the European Community, from the Commonwealth and individuals from, from Britain and elsewhere. We also have to provide support for the A N C... for thirty years a banned organization having to start from scratch in a country where the majority is supported but having no party officers or structures in place... because if we suspend support to them or reduce it... it will be like having no support of them all this time and just when the bird is about to fly you clip its wings. So there's no moment which is greater than this for supporting the liberation struggle. Meanwhile there's growing violence as I've said... and we want to end the violence... but we cannot wait to end the violence before we have the elections... and you can imagine at what great disadvantage the democratic forces will work when they try to have elections in a violent atmosphere which is determined by the state structure. So we have to move from old structures to new... but the first new government of South Africa will be a compromise in itself because it will be a united government... but it will inherit not a post-apartheid state as many academics and politicians tell us... it will inherit a nil-apartheid state... and that is a very big difference... we still have to move to the post-apartheid situation which could take decades. I was horrified in nineteen ninety one with my first visit... to see the enormous problems in housing... three and a half million people were forcibly moved in the eighties in South Africa, the biggest peacetime movement of people anywhere in the world... and there are now over seven million people in, just in the shacks on the roads, not even the informal housing which counts for more. No sanitation, water... health, there's no primary health care, virtually the only country in the world with no primary health care. Unemployment... forty to fifty percent. Transport virtually nil for Africans, we have to spend two or three hours a day going to work and the same coming back... tired, exhausted and risking their lives with. Every area you look at South Africa... in a report I gave to the Norwegian government which they commissioned... we pointed out every area is like a major disaster area as if you've been hit by an earthquake in every area of human activity... and that situation needs something like a martial plan if we are, a martial aid plan, if we're to address it... but in the world we live in there's no prospect of such assistance coming to Southern Africa. Then there are the social conditions... children, a whole generation brought up in violence without education... and you know you survived only in South Africa if you are black by breaking the law! If you respected the law you wouldn't survive. So a whole generation that has learned how to break the law... how do we create them into law-abiding citizens? A generation that's gone to prison more often than it's gone to schools or cinemas... a generation where family life is not known... where the horrible migrative system destroyed any idea of family life... how do we reconstruct? Yes, friends, we have many problems and the neighbouring countries Mozambique, Angola, attacked by South Africa in war, have even greater problems. The legacy of apartheid is not only within the borders of South Africa but in the region. But we are lucky... we have great people and great people in terms of the ordinary people. The struggle of Cosatu and the trade union movement, the liberation struggle, when you look at it it gives you great hope in terms of human capacity... but they will need other kinds of help in order to reconstruct... and let me say this because it is important and I don't say it with any kind of arrogance... we have one kind of miracle occurring in South Africa that people ignore... and that is that out of the hell of racism... we have produced a leadership which is the strongest leadership in the world against racism. And this is quite unique when you go to South Africa and you see what's happening... that black leaders and blacks do not go for quick votes and quick solutions, we're not trying to keep,tu turn people against whites. When you see how easy those slogans political support in Europe and elsewhere... you begin to understand what a great educational role the liberation movement and the churches of South Africa have carried out. And in this sense, when we liberate South Africa we will also create, we hope... a state in the world which will become foremost in fighting racism all over the world... and at the lower level... our community based organizations... our non-governmental organizations that have across colour built up structures to move communities forward... if our friends in Eastern Europe and elsewhere could see how that is done at grass roots level in the hell of racism as I say... they would have a lot to learn. So in the future we also have a lot to give to the rest of the world rather than just to look for help. I want to end by saying that we need now to f go over this hurdle of liberation... make sure that the vast majority of black South Africans who are deeply angry... and I saw this anger because I was in South Africa when Chris was assassinated... and this anger was turning into rage... and the country was on a knife edge... it could have blown up, the country would have burned... had it not been for the diplomatic achievement of, of enormous stature by Nelson Mandela when he addressed the whole nation and in a sense seized power... informally... from white and black... and the country managed to survive that... but if that anger turns into rage again then the country could burn... and I don't say this to be dramatic but just to warn... that in those moments when the media and so on don't explain the situation well... don't forget our people because they have had to cope with this situation. We have to then work in the future not only to develop South Africa... but to develop the region... Angola, Mozambique, all the other countries. We do not want to have a future relationship of United States and Latin America reproduced in South Africa, which so many people talk about now when they talk about South Africa as the engine of growth... if we have that kind of growth it'll be distorted and none of the poor in South Africa or the region will benefit from it. So... we need then to move forward and next week Archbishop and Julius, the founders of the Anti-Apartheid Movement in nineteen fifty nine... are having a conference in London... which we've entitled Southern Africa Making Hope a Reality. And foreign ministers from Africa are coming... the Secretary General of the O A U... United Nations representatives and others because we want to build a new agenda and move the anti-apartheid campaign so that it prepares to handle the problems of Southern Africa. We in the world campaign which has so far tried to stop armaments to South Africa and its nuclear build up... we want to work if possible to build a common security... er, arrangement in the region... where peace will be everywhere if we can make it everywhere because the region has got so many weapons and arms... and military expenditure is very easy to increase when you have growing number of nation states where the people really need food and development. So we hope that in this last mile that we're now walking... you will continue to support the Anti-Apartheid Movement and the A N C and Cosatu and others in South Africa... that our eyes should be on the prize and that is to get democracy and the first democratic parliament in the country... and after that to help in the horrendously difficult task of reconstruction and development... and it is going to be a tough battle... in South Africa as elsewhere... and we will need to work not just for political democracy... because you know so often democratic processes are misunderstood for empowerment of ordinary people... and what democracy should really mean is that ordinary people have the opportunity to determine their own destiny... and you know from your own advanced society and others... how little power individuals have as a result of power of finance capital, of industry... and of technology now. Technology is changing our world so much that small groups of people through computers and elsewhere are able to determine vast patterns of human behaviour... and so it's gonna be a long struggle... but through our struggle in Africa and your struggle here... where we all want democracy but democracy's only a process... what we have to contend with is also power... because ultimately it's only when you're able to exercise that power that you can deliver for the majority of the people.... [tape change] Africa like elsewhere. If we just win freedom... that freedom will become very empty if we're not able to use the power that it gives us to create justice and peace in the region. And so we still have a common struggle and to build up our international solidarity. In conclusion then to thank you again. At this stage, you know, we don't have in our situation because we're very poor... any kind of gifts that can give a valid expression even as a token of the tremendous support you've all given us over many many years and decades in Britain... that has been a source of inspiration. If I may take one more minute just to convey this... when I was a child in South Africa and we demonstrated and the police would come you know, ready to fire... ready to kill if necessary and you had to calculate how you can avoid that situation... and then you try in your normal life after the demonstration to do something against the regime to organize people and so on, and then like a juggernaut the state comes and destroys all the work that you and others have done for years... and you just see it as a child of what your parents and others had done. And then... it is extremely difficult... if you are not white... not to become very angry with life... it's very difficult... and then you hear that in Trafalgar Square someone demonstrated... Canon or or Barbara... and then you say no! There are sensible white people in the world. We continue with the struggle and forget the mad whites here and that we have to help them... and that's what our people have to do. But without your support and your demonstrations and support from whites in other countries with the rugby demonstrations, the cricket, with all aspects that you've done, you've also contributed to making it easier for us to be the kind of people we would like to be... and I hope in that way we therefore do share as a family and then try and create one world. So as a small token of appreciation, I just have two books... or two copies of the same book... which I would like to hand to your president and to your general secretary as a token of appreciation... and it's the authorized biography of Nelson Mandela of whom we are all very proud, considering what he has suffered through and what he has done... and we hope that this little token will be a kind of memento for all your support... but by doing this I'm not saying that your support is over because the struggle continues. Thank you very much. [clapping] [rapturous applause] [Dick:] Thank you very much indeed, Abdul... for that marvellous, excellent address. Colleagues... on the fourteenth of June... Trevor who indeed has addressed this er conference in the past will be eighty years of age. I would like to propose that we send our best wishes and congratulations to Trevor to mark that marvellous achievement. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Would you agree to that? Thank you very much. Er, colleagues, we now move to the report and I call Alan. [speaker001:] [talk in background] [Neil:] Alan, national officer. President, congress... in the few minutes available to me this afternoon to speak to my written report... I want to touch on three issues. First I want to say a little bit about the nineteen ninety three ninety four building materials pay round which is dealt with in some detail in the written report that you have. Second I want to say a few words about the efforts that have been made in the last twelve months to increase the G M B's role in the building and civil engineering industries... and third I want to say something about the present serious situation in the building industry pay talks. Congress, well I've seen from my written report that the current material, building materials pay round has been an extremely tough one. Redundancies, short-time working, bonus cuts and the like have been very much the order of the day... we've had the twenty percent job cuts at Blue Circle Cement which are mentioned specifically in the report... and we've also seen significant additional job losses at British Gypsum... in the brick industry and in many other sectors of the building materials industry. It's against that background, congress, that we've pressed forward... usually in cooperation with the T G W U... claims on behalf of our members in these industries. Congress will see from the report that settlements of the, in the range of one and a half to three percent have been generally speaking the order of the day. It's worth noting, colleagues, that it's only because of the determination of our members to ensure that their already meagre standard of living and basic rates are not further eroded... that even this small achievement has been possible. I can also report to congress that at last there are some signs at long last of some kind of recovery in the building materials industry... very early days yet but some companies are actually beginning to go back to full-time working... and in one or two cases are actually starting to take on additional, er, employees. The recession that we've gone through in materials and elsewhere in the economy... has taught us, or should have taught us I believe, a very clear lesson and that is that we must end the situation that's in the building materials industry where our members rely for a reasonable standard of living on bonus earnings... the problem being of course that as soon as the recession starts to bite, then the bonus pay becomes very vulnerable to attack and reduction by the employers. It's for this reason that many of the shop stewards' conferences that we've convened in the last year have been pressing a policy of consolidating bonus pay into the basic rates and we've achieved some small success in this in building brick and in one or two other industries. I want to turn now, congress, if I might, to our efforts to raise the G M B's profile in the industry as a whole. We've taken a much more active role in the European Federation that we belong to, the Building and Woodworkers' Federation... and as... our conference will know, or some colleagues in congress will know... we've actually had [speaker001:] several shop stewards' exchanges within companies on the basis of the er p- potential wh council directives. I've also, it's worthwhile me recording my gratitude to the regions for the level of cooperation that's been extended in this programme. In addition to that, we've increased the profile that we, we have by... concentrating on the health and safety issues and it's worthwhile me recording my appreciation of the efforts of Nigel in this direction because we're running very closely in, in, in tandem to ensure that the G M B is elite union in the campaign to make the building industry a safer industry for our members to work in. Last but by not means least, and we've heard them mentioned a couple times already this week and it will be dealt with more extensively later in the week... we have of course persuaded to enter into detailed discussions with us... er, which would hopefully lead to a transfer of engagements by the end of this year. It is one of the obvious benefits, congress, that what that will give us is a much higher profile in the construction and construction-related industries. Finally I want to say a little bit about the current deadlock in the building industry pay talks. Early this week the general secretary pointed out that the recession has thrown almost half a million building workers on the dole. This is not only a shocking waste of their talents and skills and energy, but it's a potent weapon that's been put in the hands of the building employers and the consequence is, of course, that they're seeking a twelve month pay and conditions freeze in the industry. The unions are presently consulting the membership as to how we should respond to this... and that process is going on at the moment inside G M B... the difficulty of course being the low level of organization. I am convinced congress, however, that there will be sporadic industrial action throughout the summer if the employers do not change their stance and it's my view that we have to restart the talks. With this in mind... er, this morning I've written to George, the trade union secretary of the Civil Engineering Conciliation Board, the negotiating machine... and suggested to him that he contacts the employers to seek a further meeting to see if we can restart the talks based on doing something about the longstanding commitment by both sides of the industry to have a positive and sensible pay structure for the future... this may be one way forward, one way out of the deadlock. President, congress, with these few brief remarks I commend my report to congress. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed, Alan. Page one five eight... one five nine... one six O... one six one... one six two, one six three, one six four, one six fi yes. [speaker001:] , Liverpool, North Wales, Irish region. President, congress... this is gonna be a unique one, I'm gonna give Alan praise. Alan... got a message for you... all the stewards and secretaries within Pilkingtons and also the A E U, M S F and the T & G... thanks very much for the initiative you've in getting us all together... and the initiative you've took in getting us part of the European set-up... company... Pilkingtons, at this present time are very negative. Thank you very much. [clapping] [Dick:] One six five, one six six, one six seven, yes. [Len:] Bob, Midlands and East Coast region... mutual admiration society, Alan. Erm, to congratulate you firstly on the level of settlements that have been achieved in the extracting and building conc building products division... erm... secondly, on, on one six seven... the refused to make an offer... [cough] and, er, if you could perhaps update us as to what, er... method we're gonna approach employers now, erm, to, to secure settlements in that industry... er, we think it was deplorable that no offer was made... and we also think it was deplorable that E C C Building Products decided to say that even if an offer had been made, they wouldn't have been prepared to implement it. Thank you Alan. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] One six seven, one six eight... one six nine, one seven O... one seven one... one seven two, Alan. [Neil:] President, I've, er, had lots of advice from my colleagues as to how to respond to the comments of the shop stewards... er, I can only respond and say thank you very much indeed for the kind things they've said... particularly, erm, specific point that's been raised on the industry from my colleagues that are from the Midlands and East Coast... the situation currently is that, er, we have decided to ballot for industrial action in E C C and the T & G have decided to ballot for industrial action in, I think its. We've informed the employers of that decision and hopefully that will change the position. as colleagues who are involved will know... is just about the only industry... in the building materials sector that hasn't made some kind of pay offer in this current round... it's very much bringing up the rear and we're determined to use what industrial strength we have to change the employer's stance... otherwise we're very concerned that the national negotiation missionary, this will be his death knell since we'll have to resort to local pay bargaining, so the short answer is... E C C... er, will be balloted as far as the G M B is concerned union and, er, T & G are balloting in for industrial action to try to change the employers' position. Thank you congress. [Dick:] Thank you very much, Alan. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, perhaps I could explain to you, er, how we're gonna deal with the rest of the programme, certainly in the, the next hour or so... er, I'm proposing that we take the special report, Health, Safety and the Environment Service Review... be asking Nigel to move the report... to be seconded by Fred from the central executive council... we'll then invite speakers from all the regions... and then we'll put the report to the vote. Th then we'll be following section on health of women workers which will take in motions two five eight... composite thirty two... motion two six one... motion two six nine... and composite six. Be asking Sue to respond to that debate and to put the C E C point of view. That will be followed by a number of motions on health and the environment... composite five... motion two six four... motion two six five, motion two six six... motion two six eight and composite seven, and I'll be asking Mark on behalf of the C E C to respond to that particular debate. It's now my very great pleasure, congress, to call Nigel to move the Health and Safety and Environment Service Review. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker010:] Thank you Mr President, congress... Nigel, Director of Health and Environment... moving the special report, Health, Safety, Environment Service Review. In the time that I have to move the report I'd like to concentrate on some of the developments that have been taking place in health and safety... this is not to, er, give the impression that environmental developments are not important... but over this next year the government are going to be taking certain measures that we need to be aware of, er, in the health and safety area. I would start off by saying that in November last year the G M B held a major conference to relaunch our Health Safety and Environment Service. At that conference John... the director general of the Health and Safety Executive... gave his views on why certain regulations appear to be weaker than the actual European directives on which they were based. He said... it was due to our unique Anglo-Saxon law... whereby we set out in law what is reasonable and... then we enforce it. Directives are based on Roman law whereby absolute duties are set out in the law... but it is not vigorously enforced. We have recently found out that we have now got the best of all of these or the worst of all of these in Anglo-Saxon Roman law... whereby we set out was, is reasonable in law and then they hear from Saf Health and Safety Executive tell us they are not going to enforce it. This hardly seems a credible basis for weakening directives which in themselves only establish minimum health and safety standards for workers across Europe. By the end of that conference, Mr was left in no doubt that the G M B rejected the H S's approach. What has happened since then? In January we were the first union to issue briefing notes on all six key health and safety regulations enacted at the beginning of the year... we were the only trade union to put on a stand at the EuroSafe ninety three exhibition... which was the main exhibition of the European year of health and safety... this promoted the union's approach to health and safety. We have contributed to numerous guidance notes on new regulations across a wide range of industrial, service and commercial sections... through Steven we have submitted a draft proposal on a directive covering upper limb disorders to the European Commission... we'll be putting further proposals for the establishment of a European work environment fund to assist workplace activity, workplace research on health and safety and environmental issues. All of these initiatives... as well as the day to day work that goes on with safety representatives at the workplace, supported by officials... all of these initiatives are aimed at improving standards at the workplace... and we are also contributing to the fourth action programme in Europe... where they are setting out their action programme which will take them into the next [speaker001:] century. So I'd like to reflect that against what the government has done since our unique November conference... they have cut the Health and Safety Executive's budget for nineteen ninety three ninety four by five percent, that's a total of thirteen million pounds... the Department of Employment have already admitted this will lead to less inspections and less prosecutions... they have introduced a market tex market testing exercise into the H S E... in other words they're saying what parts of the Health and Safety Executive can be privatized into, no doubt, their friends in industry... they have made sure that Health that the Health and Safety Commission will work slower in the future by making the chair which is currently a full-time post a part-time post from September this year. As we are all aware, they have cut the grant available to safety representatives training, sorry, for safety representatives' training and will completely eliminate that grant by nineteen ninety five... and to top it all they have just announced that a review of all health and safety legislation will be completed by April next year... the objective of this review is to reduce the so-called burdens health and safety legislation puts on employers. At our conference in November we had a roll call of five hundred and six G M B members who'd ha who were either killed in work or had died from work-related disease since May nineteen seventy nine... those who attended may recall the emotional... er... feeling that this gave to the beginning of that conference... and this government then has the audacity to talk about the burdens on employers... what about the burdens on the families of those whose relatives have been killed or diseased through workplace injuries by the negligence of the employers that actually employ them? We have to respond to these... developments... and it is being made clear now in public, that the Health and Safety Executive are giving every indication to employers that they are not going to rigorously enforce the law... and indeed in the local authorities a leading figure there has said that they want to take a softly softly approach. The G M B has rejected this approach and recognized that we have to improve health and safety standards at the workplace. In the special report, specific re recommendations are made to improve the consistency of safety representatives' training... improving information flow and giving more uniform support to full-time officers... support in the workplace. However, the report identifies a number of areas that need to be addressed in more detail... as a result we are recommendatin it, recommending that a major consultation exercise be d be conducted this year to ensure that the many ideas that people have to improve our Health, Safety and Environment Service are considered. Recommendations from that consultation exercise will be then brought back to this congress. In stressing the challenges that face us in health and safety... it is not to ignore the environmental challenge... however we recognize it needs to be considered much more widely so that our resources can be most effectively targeted. Mr President... I move this special report on behalf of the C E C on the basis that it provides us with the framework to build on the excellent record that the G M B has on improving health, safety and environmental standards at the workplace. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much, Nigel. [Owen:] Fred, C E C member, seconding the special report on Health, Safety and the Environment. President... in seconding the report I would like to make the following points to our safety representatives who have to bear the responsibility for improving conditions at the workplace for our members. To be successful in improving health and safety standards we must have good workplace organization... good laws... good inspectors and good guidance all have their place in improving health and safety standards. However, if we cannot influence events where people actually work... poor standards will result and this is particularly true during a recession as many of us here no doubt know. It is clearly recognized in the report that the safety representative's role is vital if workplace standards are to be consistently improved. Since the first of January this year safety representatives have been given legal rights to be con consulted and I quote... in good time regarding the following... one... any measure which substantially affects the health and safety of employees... two... the arrangements for appointing specialist staff... three... any health and safety information circulated to employees... four... the planning and organization of any health and safety training... and five, the introduction of new technologies. These important rights mean that the safety representatives must be consulted by the employer well before action is taken... and when combined with the existing functions of safety representatives, they provide extensive rights to organize around health and safety at the workplace. However... many employers do not comply with these legal duties unless they are pressed to do so... for this reason the recommendations in section five of the report are aimed at giving support to safety representatives and full-time officials to improve workplace activity. This is a key priority in the report. During this year and next, more European directives will be agreed. The European Commission have agreed an action programme that will take us into the next century and this is despite the attitude of the present U K government. Once new laws have been passed, workplace action is needed to ensure that employers comply with the new legislation. The report clearly stresses the need to focus a major part of our resources on to workplace activity... Nigel highlighted the complacent attitude of the enforcing authorities. We simply cannot re rely on the Health and Safety Executive... or anybody else... it is our G M B activists who will take the lead on health and safety. President, this report is the basis for developing our own action programme to improve health and safety standards at the workplace. Congress, with these points I am pleased to second the report. Thank you President. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much indeed, Fred. As I indicated, colleagues, it's my intention now to go round the regions and ask regions whether they wish to put a speaker in. First of all Birmingham... again colleagues, it will be very helpful and will save time if intended speakers would come down to the front... [Les:] Sorry. Bert... Birmingham and West Midland region, moving the Health, Safety and Environment Service Review. At our pre-delegates conference earlier this year... whether it was the first one or the second one I can't remember... our region unanimously accepted the policy review. The terms of reference within the document are excellent... with issues spreading from shop floor organization... the, the training... how to tackle legislation... the right to the E E C directives which hopefully will continue to, to new responsibilities with the employers. This document makes good and interesting reading... full of fact... individual references... and a guidance for future action... you don't need to be a solicitor to understand at consultation exercise will be then brought back to th conference in Blackpool this year, Nigel spoke about the, the new European directive... the importance of the new regulations. He referred to the six pack and my initial thought was... well, what's a six pack of Newcastle Brown Ale gotta do with Health and Safety? [Dick:] [LAUGHTER] [Les:] But Nigel did take the time to explain that b that basically this was the, the, the view that the new directive would take place... keeping it simple. I'm glad to see environment put into the title... it's all related. On a lighter note... a fellow worker approached me only a couple of months ago... er, the new European directive almost ruined his holiday... he then explained... he booked up to take his family to EuroDisney. On his first day of arrival... he was told the authorities had closed EuroDisney down... and when he asked why, he was told someone had reported to the authorities that a six foot mouse was walking round the day before. I didn't get that either until he said his name was Mick. But seriously, Nigel impresses me. He impressed our sectional conference and he will impress this conference as well and this only makes me aware that the G M B, not only now, but in the future, will be a leading force in the issues within the British and the European trades union movement. We support... I move... and before I go... boing boing baggis Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [LAUGHTER] [Dick:] South Western... Yes, I know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] President, colleagues,, South Western region, speaking in support of the report. It is particularly refreshing to note the amount of self-criticism that appears throughout the report. It is equally refreshing to note that such criticism is acknowledged... and solutions are readily available to provide an answer. We as an organization must be ready to accept the sterling work carried out by our, er... R H S Os... with the very limited resources at their disposal... and particular thanks must go to those R H S Os who find themselves dual-roled as education and political officers. One way forward can be found in sections five and six of the report... with section six providing enough material to devote the whole forum to on just its own. It is good that this union has taken the trouble to prepare this report... with so much E C legislation in the pipeline. The matters that have been highlighted in this report are as relevant now as those which necessitated the formings of the nineteen seventy eight and nineteen ninety congress resolutions. We ask that you support this report. [Dick:] Thanks very much... Lancashire region. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Peter:] President, sisters and brothers, Graham, Lancashire region, speaking on Health, Safety and Environment Service Review. Right at the start of the report we are told that the G M B should be justifiably proud of our achievements in the field of occupational health, safety over the past fifteen years. Quite rightly so... but we can't get complacent... health and safety is one of the most important issues of all affecting our members. Two hundred separate regulations have been introduced since nineteen seventy eight... but factory inspectors have been severely cut... where the average workplace now can only expect a visit once every eleven years... that's why we've gotta get a backup service right... right for our sa safety representatives. We're told in the report that small firms with less than twenty people have a fatal and major accident rate forty percent higher than firms employing over a thousand. But it's in the small firms where the growth is... and it's usually hard to get people on any courses that a small company. We welcome the creation of the G M B Health and Safety Service... specialized staff... quality publications... campaign and support in workplace activi activities... but as long as this government allows unscrupulous employers to explore, exploit the low pay, lower inspection rates, the accident rate will climb... and our safety reps will get increasingly frustrated. Health and safety cour training courses... according to these reports these are poorly attended with a majority below forty percent... but more worrying than that is that nearly half of G M B safety reps said they'd not received a copy of the safety rep's kits. We've got to make sure that at the very least all these reps have a kit. Included in the recommendations is for a two day training course, costing fifty thousand for two thousand places... it's excellent... except we're told in the report that we can't get people on courses however good they is... es especially among, er, small companies. I believe we've gotta find ways of getting the information to the safety reps that can't attend courses in making sure they get the information there at the workplace. Briefing sessions on the new, new kit for full-time officials... we think these should be extended to branch secretaries as well because if a person rings up and advi asks for advice, he can't get that advice, it shows the union up in bad light. With these small points I've I've made, Lancashire region supports the report and looks forward for a wider discussion at regional and branch level. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks Graham. Yorkshire region. [Hywel:] John, Yorkshire and North Derbyshire, speaking in support of the Health and Safety, Environment Service Review. President, congress... we should applaud the work of the Health and Environment department at National Office... and in supporting this service report we must go swiftly forward into wide-ranging discussions at all levels of the G M B. The publications they have produced have been of a consistent high standard and are very user-friendly. Consideration should be given to include in the Direct Journal... a supplement... possibly entitled Health and Safety Direct to the Membership. Also industrial health and safety information such as welder's lung for the technical crafts section magazine. We should support the move for an increase in the use of new technologies... for the storage and dissemination of information throughout the union. I know these are increasing at a very rapid rate... almost as quickly as the new legislations develop... and keeping accurate paper records is becoming increasingly more difficult. The Yorkshire region has, for a number of years now, combined the Health and Safety Officer's job with that of the regional education officer... the two have always married together very well... in the principal thrust of workplace activity it involved the training of safety representatives... enabling them to carry out their role effectively. In the report which played mainly on the results of the trade union studies information unit survey... the survey was only taken shortly after we had commenced the new education system... therefore the figures are not necessarily reflected today. The Yorkshire region's current situation ensures that new safety representatives are invited to a two day introduction course... from which they are encouraged to attend a health and safety course at National College. The take-up has been better than indicated by the survey... we would support the views expressed regarding changes and in particular point thirteen. The changes in legislation have been dramatic since the mid-eighties... the majority of changes coming in at the beginning of nineteen ninety three with the E C directives. We now have a legal requirement on employers which are clearly written and which we can use to our advantage... providing our safety reps have been correctly trained to implement the regulations. The environment we live in must also be protected... sources of pollution must be located and stopped... employers clearly held liable for their actions and dealt with as severely as allowed by law. Our union is still leading the field in provision of the information and training to enable our safety representatives to deal with the ramifications of the new regulations. The situation regarding the enforcement of is disgraceful... too few inspectors... far too much work... therefore we must encourage safety representatives to be more self-sufficient in the workplace... leaving the G M B to carry on its campaign for an increase in the inspectorate. Yorkshire, North Derbyshire supports. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Southern region. [Derek:] President, colleagues... Derek, Southern region, speaking to the document on health and safety. Last year, the health and safety report was supported by my region. That report had two main objectives... one was to establish a clear policy for G M B health and safety... the second was to set out a training programme to establish the G M B's role in health and safety. This year's report hopes to bring about a consultation exercise to establish what to prioritize in the G M B Health and Safety Service. It will be looking at the needs of the lay reps... the role of full-time officers... the way we distribute the up to date information... and one of the most vital to our organization is to look at the role of health and safety in the recruitment and retention of membership. The Southern region supports the initiative but urges caution. We have been told that finances for health and safety will be found but we were never told from where that money would come from. Colleagues, to promote a culture of health and safety, our starting point must be to establish a network of safety reps in the workplaces... and we must have proper funds for training... for all of our safety reps... that is a most crucial part of the report. The introduction in January ninety three of six European directives has given us a unique opportunity to raise the profile of the G M B both in places where we have membership and elsewhere, when the message gets across how the G M B reps are so well trained and able to represent members on all health and safety issues. To make sure the G M B is at the head of the field we must have a reasonable Health and Safety Officer who would ensure that our safety reps and full-time officers are kept up to speed with all the changes in legislation... and to provide the adequate training. This of course had to be monitored and accountable... a as it is at present in the Southern region where we can already see the benefits. We urge the C E C to start a consultation process as soon as possible and to put their recommendations into practice. Southern region supports the document. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Northern region. [speaker001:] President, congress... Eddie, Northern region, supporting the special report. Congress... the G M B's record of health and safety is the envy of the trade union movement. Time and again it has been our union which has led the way on issues of health and safety whilst other unions have merely followed. It was the G M B which campaigned and won the Health and, er, Safety at Work Act. It was the G M B which campaigned for and won the regulations. And currently, as Steven stated in his address yesterday... it is the G M B who are pressing for and winning improvements in the European Health and Safety Directives. Congress... against this background, the Northern region welcomes this report... it is an impressive report which signifies the importance that the G M B attaches to issues of health and safety... and it indicates that this union will continue to maintain its high standards in this crucial area. We in the Northern region welcome in particular the recommendation of the Health and Safety Officer to beef up the health and safety education and services delivered in the regions. We look forward, Mr President, to the successful implementation of this report... and to once again leading the British trade union movement in this field. President, I would take this opportunity on behalf of the region to condra sorry, congratulate Nigel on the excellent work that he has done since becoming the National Health and Safety Officer. Congress... Northern region supports. [clapping] [Dick:] London region. President, congress... Ray, London region... speaking in support of the motion, er sorry, the report... close. But we have to identify some of the failings of the report... at the ninety-f nineteen eighty five congress, motion forty urged the C E C to ensure that each region appoints an officer whose prime responsibility will be health and safety. The London region defined this as a minimum of fifty percent or more. Motion forty outlined the problems with the workplace... with new technology... new machinery and new practices... which the membership needed effective support and backup. Eight years on the problems have not decreased... but they have increased... er, even more so with the present problem of employers who tend to ignore health and safety using fear of unemployment to stop complaints. The reports still do not identify by regions which regions comply with that eighty five motion. If you look at the general secretary report under the regional sections there is an invisible service... you'll be unable to find the health and safety side. The special report is meant to make sure that the Health and Safety sService are not the Cinderella service... there should be a general principle of accountability and monitoring of the service in the regions. Health and safety is the one area where shop stewards, safety representatives have to deal with on a daily basis. We need the best backup... it's one of the best services we can offer for recruitment and retention. Comrades, the London region supports the m the report but with the reservation I mentioned. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much colleagues... G M B Scotland. [Neil:] Richard, G M B Scotland. President, colleagues, supporting Health and Safety Special Report. As an organization, our success and effectiveness depends on how we organize, train and support all the activists and officers... how we adjust to legislative change and how we progress our collective aims. The terms of reference contained in the report clearly identifies how the G M B should progress health and safety policy. It highlights the inadequate support that the Health and Safety Executive... er, gives and their failing to enforce current legislation... or prosecute those who openly disregard their responsibilities for employee safety. The government has also failed in its responsibility for the Health and Sa Safety Executive by restricting year after year... adequate resources for them to carry out the function that they were designed for. If this government channelled its resources against employers who disregard the health and safety legislation... as much as it channels its energy at the trade unions through the Employment Act... I'm sure we would see a great decrease in accidents and [speaker001:] fatalities at work. There has been new legislation introduced in the form of the European six pack... and the cost regulations... but this legislation will only be effective if it is enforced. The G M B has through its health and safety reps... under the safety reps and safety committee's regulations... specific legal rights which should be exercised as a matter of course. The report identifies workplace, health and safety organization and the need for training. Yes, quality training will be needed... quality training which addresses the core values and the health and safety perception... that will be the key to our success. We need to coordinate and further organize a better system of training... we need a service that can give a quick response for those seeking guidance or information. I believe that our new computer system... when it's linked to all the regions, will have the potential to... access detailed health and safety information and I hope we will use it... er, and make the information technology that is available to further our health and s safety service delivery. In doing so we will create the opportunity to deliver an individual service to our members through instant response... and while improving our service to the members we will also improve our recruitment potential. The, the report addresses the past and current G M B policy but it is the future needs of our members that we must plan for. We must consolidate our expertise and where that expertise is not evident, we must create it. In parallel with our training strategy we must ensure sufficient funding for health and safety campaigns if we are to realize the objectives set out in this report. Governments, employers, in conclusion colleagues, do not have the right to deny our members a safe, healthy working environment. In supporting this report we will be setting a future agenda which should go some way to extending working, workers' protection for our members. I support. [clapping] [Dick:] Midland region. [Derek:] President, congress, Ken, Midlands and East Coast region, speaking to C E C special report, Health, Safety and Environment. Conference, in speaking to this document we should all realize the importance of the subject that we are referring to today. The world of health and safety is a-changing rapidly and we in the G M B are, and should always be, at the forefront of the reviews that are, and have, taken place. We the G M B have an excellent record over the last fifteen years... but the g our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular g, is cause for concern and a massive scope for improvement... in every area of health, safety and the environment. Our impact on industry... through our green works campaign is there for all to see... and from that point of view to encase it within the health and safety review is vitally important for all of us... when we take the policy back to our members and advise them of the way in which we intend to go forward. Since the decision of the nineteen seventy eight congress to appoint national and regional health and safety officers... the legal and political context within which they operate has changed dramatically... with more legila legislation. Since nineteen seventy four over two hundred separate regulations have been introduced... [tape change]

[Jean:] I want you to think about it during the in cos it does help if you think about this before.... So some time, you know, during the interval or at the end if you could er give them to Heather... and then she'll hand them on to me afterwards. Erm, the social, I've got tickets for the social. So if you see erm [speaker002:] Right. [Jean:] during the interval. The dinner. Er, if anybody hasn't booked would they please see Elaine... either this week or next. Erm... I think that brings us to the end of the... announcements. Which brings us to... tonight's big competition number two. And I have pleasure in introducing our judge, Mark from Chelmsford. Would you please welcome Mark. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Mark:] Good evening. I've been to your lovely new... really smashing! Really nice. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Erm... you know, I mean er... all the other places are alright, but this is er... I don't know [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] the only one I know of that's with [George:] Well [Mark:] with a carpet on the floor. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Can, can we have... can we have some light on? If someone could crawl under the [George:] No th [speaker002:] Underneath. [George:] fo underneath the... you've gotta clo crawl underneath the cupboard. [Mark:] Oh! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] You found it. [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Right. Thank you. Okay? [Jean:] The. [George:] Right. This one [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] this one is called Ancient Greek. [Mark:] Ancient Greek? [George:] Ancient Greek. [Mark:] Yeah, well there's no doubt about that is there? Certainly er, the er... in fact, some of them have got titles at the front so [George:] Yeah. [Mark:] you know. Anyway, Ancient Greek. It's a... a sort of a... a candid portrait I suppose. And the reason I call it a candid portrait is because I don't think that the... he may have seen somebody there with a camera, but he certainly wasn't posing... for the camera. He's... appears to be... erm... not looking at the... the cameraman, photographer. So maybe he didn't know he was going to be photographed. But certainly, his... er location is correct for the costume. He's got this er... I guess he's... could he be a priest? I don't know, I'm not... familiar with that. But it looks as if he could be... an Orthodox... er Jewish Orthodox priest. With the long beard and the... sort of box hat. Erm... the, as I sa already said, the location is correct. Got nice sort of archway here to give a sort of a... bit of interest to the... erm... the... bri the stonework behind him. Erm... doorway there, always a doorways always add interest to a picture. Erm, they're sort of a little bit intriguing, you wonder what's going on there, what sort of place it is, and so on. And there's nobody else in the picture so we're totally concentrating on him.... It does lack a little bit of sharpness this one. [speaker002:] Yes. [Mark:] It's not quite as crisp as it ought to be. It's er... but... the actual tones in it are, are ideal. Beautiful! Nothing wrong with that at all. You've got er, all the tones it should have but, the overall crispness, sharpness I'm afraid, is lost. But I'm not quite sure why. It doesn't look like camera shake. It just... appears to be... just a fraction... out of focus maybe, I don't know. Maybe er... could be a camera shake. I it,i it does lack that... crispness we feel ought to have there. [George:] Have marks out of ten so erm [Mark:] I like the subject, and I like the composition and so on, but it just loses a bit because of the lack of sharpness so a five for that. [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] This [George:] Steps. [Mark:] Step. Yeah, right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Slowly got that. Certainly... a very simple picture and I believe often that simple pictures are successful pictures. Erm... not always, but I think a lot of pictures or photographs... erm... suffer because people have got too much in them. You know, and, and I... I prefer something to be kept as simple as possible and not to try and... erm... make it too busy. Certainly, the quality of the printing in this one is excellent. Lovely light on the... the wall here. The texture's right everywhere through that photograph, it's got nice texture. Cos even in the... the shadow area... you see there's still nice textures shown on the... fronts of the steps here and on this wall here which is in shadow, it's still got th the texture showing through. And, the way those steps go round the corner, up behind the er... erm... the wall here, I think again, it has a sort of an intriguing effect, you wonder... erm... where they're leading to and so on. And they're very steep steps. I mean, er... you know er, a little bit dodgy. I would think som someone a little unsteady coming down those steps they could be a bit dodgy. But, certainly, I like the shapes, I like the diamond shape of this wall here, the, and I like the tree at the back. Yes, I, I like that one. I think that's an... an excellent... simple... study. It's the sort of picture which... people who are not interested in photography wouldn't even bother with, probably, but see what they're missing? So they've done it, I think... someone er who's walking along the road, see you standing there taking that picture and say, what on earth are they taking a picture of that for? But I, you know, the end result erm... is worth it. Erm... I've had a quick look through so I'm trying to remember... er what we've got coming. [George:] Mm. [Mark:] I'm gonna give that one a ten cos I like it. [speaker002:] [clapping] [George:] That was Elaine. Skyscape, Loch Linnhe. [Mark:] I like this one too. I know erm... it's got loads of punch. It's got... er, impact, it's, it appeared relatively small so... you know,to erm... it's a fact of life that small prints... have a, a lot more to do to keep up with big ones, they have to more impact. I mean, they can... er... be lost a bit if they're a bit small. But, I, I'm not, you know, because thi but compared with the one that we've just looked at... this is small, but it's still got plenty of impact. Now,yo you can imagine what this would be like if it was twenty by sixteen. Just a, to, just trying to illustrate the point that size does matter sometimes. I like the erm... lighting throughout this, although it's... fairly dark... there's nowhere... excuse me, on the, on the land which is... in bright light, although the sun is still fairly high, so it could be artificially dark, but, nevertheless, you can see detail everywhere. On the water, the ripples on the water are throughout the picture... and even on this sort of headland here, something like that, there's even some detail there. So even though the whole thing is in... fairly dark tones, there's still plenty of detail. And lovely light on clouds and the water. So, I'm gonna give that one an eight. [George:] Eight? Heather. Next one is Fascination. [Mark:] Fascination of watching somebody doing something which you're not familiar with. Probably that's it. Er, that's where the title comes in. Now with... people who are... at work, who are... erm, working... with their hobby, or a job, it's always important that it's clear what's going on. I've seen lots of pictures where... people are obviously doing something that you just don't know what's going on and that, that is a pity because er... er... the idea of a photograph is to illustrate what's happening. Now I think er... it's clear what's going on here, there's er... weaving going on, I'm not quite sure what the material is... er but there's certainly a loom with some kind of er, weaving being demonstrated. And it, er, er, cos I say demonstrated because we've got these two people here, er this man and the little girl there who are obviously, erm... on a visit to this mill... watching what's going on. So i it's a, it's a... a straightforward demonstration. And er... I think that's er, the actual composition with the three people in it... is quite good. It is a little bit weak and it lacks a bit of punch. You know, it's a bit sort of er... washed out. I think a bit more... contrast... added to it would help... it does lack a little bit of contrast. Erm... I just wonder whether it might not have been better... to move round a little bit to the left... so we could have seen the lady's hand and sa... as well er er and... as well as her face, you know, we've gotta get... we can see what she's doing, know what she's doing... but it'd been nice if you could have included... her hands. And er... yes i also, I would think, it's a little unfortunate this chap happened to have his hand up on that er... post there,yo you know, it's a little bit er... ungainly, it's not sort of a very... elegant sort of po I'm not su suggesting he should pose for you, but I think, maybe had you waited until perhaps he moved his hand out of the way, it might have been a better... erm... composition. Erm... a five for that.... And so [George:] Kathle [LAUGHTER] Sorry. [Mark:] Sorry. [George:] Kathleen. [Mark:] As opposed to the candid portrait, we've now got a... a formal portrait, obviously taken... er in a studio or erm... with light, well I don't know [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] about pho photographic studio, but certainly lights and a background erm... of some nature being used... to produce this photograph. Now with... photographs of young ladies... you need... a soft light cast shadows. I'm sure a lot of cliches, you hear cliches from judges... er but... you know, some... facts erm... are bound to be repeated with na and with being a photographer you,yo... normal female photography you do need... er soft lighting, you don't want harsh lights and shadows. The they, there are always exceptions to the rule. This one's, certainly, got very soft lighting. Erm, no harsh shadows anywhere... on her face. Nice flaunting of the... er the... erm... the face, her cheeks there. Nice lighting on the hair. And I like the inclusion too, of... just a little bit of jewellery, not too much. This earring here, this pendant earring just... lifts that area up just a little bit, not too much, not too obtrusive, but just enough for sort of a... a highlight catching the pendant earring just to lift it up a little. And particularly I like the background too. I think the... erm... breaking up of the background with his sort of mottled tones,, or whatever it is, whether it's the background, you know th the background... paper or lights, there's lots of ways you can achieve that. And it is important that the background has got some interest, but no so much interest that you've forgotten about the subject. That's a nine for that one. [George:] Howard. Western Isles, Scotland. [Mark:] Erm... the... use of the letter box format here, this long, narrow... format is ideal for this... type of landscape. Well for most landscapes to be honest. Er, I think fit into the horizontal format le within the vertical, but, when you've got... long, sort of, gentle slopes like this, and expanses of water I think if you can narrow it down, as you've done here, that helps too. So I like the... the narrow... er... letterbox format. The other good thing about this is the recession through it. The, the way the hills... get lighter as you go through... until we get right to the back and you finish up with a little bit of... erm... very light cloud... beyond the hills in the distance. It's not a great exciting... er, picture. It's not, the light over the water is perhaps a little bit disappointing. Erm... i it doesn't... it's got plenty of ripple on it. I'm surprised that we're not picking up... a bit more... a few more highlights, it's a bit. It hasn't got any sparkle to it. But I think, it looks a, a bit like a ploughed field, you know, but when you, it's obviously, water but it, it doesn't look... wet like water should do. Now the boat there with, with the wash, yeah that's fine. But, [clears throat]... the light, I think, is perhaps, the thing which lets it down, just a little. It's a pity really because... the hills and so on beyond are, I think, fine cos the, I like the way it's presented and very, very nicely mounted. Just lacks a little bit of er... quality lighting. So a seven for that one. [George:] Sunshine and [clears throat] Sunshine and Shadow. [Mark:] Sunshine and Shadow. Yeah well... certainly er... it's got the, the title which explains... erm, what the photographer was trying to portray. These er... on... when they look to be the cloisters of a cathedral, although, when you look through... they seem to open out into street, so I'm not quite sure... exactly what sort of building it is. It seems to... turn into a street when you get beyond... you know, those archways. Erm... again, it's not quite as sharp as I would like to see it, it's... a little bit er... unsharp. Erm, another thing too... it's a, just a pity that that... chap there, well both of them actually are standing whe pity they couldn't... be persuaded to move over a little bit because they are, you see this chap in a dark suit, he's right against that very dark archway there. The only real reason you get to know that there's somebody there because you can see the legs and the sort of, sort of head, but yo... it does tend to get a bit lost against the background. So you're not standing in quite the right place. I like the idea of the sort of... archways looking out... to the right... letting light... sort of fall in... and it, and... make a nice pool of light ideal for somebody who's standing, but he's not standing in quite the right place. He's not picking up... the, the light. Which is a shame. Nice archways there. Very interesting shapes in the roof. But it does lack a bit of... erm... quality. A five for that. [George:] The Closed Door. [Mark:] Another door. Another very simple... you can er... another [clears throat]... simple picture. Very similar to the steps that we saw [speaker002:] Mm. [Mark:] erm... earlier on. This one, I think, is nice. I don't think it's quite as nice as the, the previous one. It's er... erm... a little bit more... straightforward a... we're looking straight onto this wall, looking straight onto the steps, and we're looking straight onto the door, so everything is... looking, sort of... erm... full-faced as it were and I think that makes for a less interesting composition than the previous one. Being sort of at an angle to it and, but i it... first of all it... allows you to see textures in the wall and things rather better, erm... and it makes for... generally speaking, a more interesting composition. You see, these... steps here tend to look as if it's a pile of... beams or something with a door standing on top, but you quite clearly see those steps, but you don't get the depth of the steps so... everything is a bit flat. The whole thing tends to get flat. Certainly, it's a very interesting door, and it's got nice er... positioning of the... of the er... and so on. And I'm sure that there is a... the thing is, it's quite a nice photograph but I'm not too happy with the actual... view. I think it would be better, in my own experience, move over to that er... the left a little bit just to... go for a slightly more interesting... composition. A seven for that one. [George:] [clears throat]... Eileen. [Mark:] That's er [George:] Mm. [Mark:] the name of the place is it? [George:] It's a co is that the one with the castle? [Mark:] It's a castle. Yeah. [George:] Yeah. That's is Eileen's then. [Mark:] Oh! Right. Oh sorry, I've got, I've got written here. [George:] No. [Mark:] I'm sorry. [George:] Print number eight. It's got [Mark:] Oh yes. Yes. [George:] Yeah. [Mark:] Mm. Yes it is. Erm, now this a... a castle which... I'm sure has been photographed... thousands and thousands of times. Erm, I can never remember the name of it and I, I, and I forget it by the time I get home, but, the name of the castle that is. But it's erm... often photographed a I've... don't recall seeing it photographed... from this actual point. Er, er it... I think the whole... place is sort of over the other side there's a, sort of a bridge there and possibly, I mean, I'm sure that I've seen a photograph from the other side. Erm... with this... sort of landscape... I always... credit the type of lens which is being used, and I think a wide angle lens has been used here, because... we could see there's been a lot of interest created in the foreground, and this is what a... a wide angle lens... will do for you in, in, in a landscape. It will create interest in the foreground which I think is important and often, especially looking across water... an expanse of water... if you haven't got any interesting detail in the foreground yo you have to go a long way into the picture before it begins to get interesting. So, don't forget the foreground, and the best way to emphasize the foreground is with a... a wi wide angle lens. Something wider than a standard lens. A thirty five millimetre or something that'll be quite... erm... [clears throat]... yeah, I think the... er cloud and sky is nice and the foreground is nice. It's just a pity that the... castle itself is... a little bit indistinct... I mean, when you stand away from it you can't er... you can hardly see the castle there and er, it is an attractive castle, photographed many times but... I would just like to see that... shown up a little more in the picture. And I think possibly you could... er, with a little bit of erm... er... slightly more contrasting in the back maybe. Er, and I think perhaps that castle could be persuaded to show up just a little more than it does. It does tend to get lost in the boundaries.... Erm... another seven for that one there. [George:] Fingers Crossed. [Mark:] [LAUGHTER]... Yeah. Fingers crossed for luck. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] ... [clears throat]... Yeah it's a... I would guess that this er... we you know, when they come down... and the strips and they go back up again, it looks as if perhaps that's what's happened here because the... the rope has sort of got this twist in it and one imagines that when they jump down it's not quite er... er... right and so perhaps he's on his way back up again. But er, nevertheless, I think er it's a, obviously a spectac a spectacular thing... to watch. To stand down here and see this idiot who's gonna leap off [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jean:] there. Erm... er... it's quite a spectacular... thing to watch, I imagine if you're there. As a photographic subject, but yeah, I, it's... simple... and it's, it's a bit sort of small, the actual, I don't know how you could make it any bigger but I do don't know what you could do. Really, the, the real point of interest is the chap who's doing the... person rather, who's the doing the jump. Erm... I suppose having this great exten extended crane there does give a good impression of height, but, the action is here and... i it's a little small in the frame and, but... although I'm sure, you know, there's quite a fe I imagine there's a lot of people standing around watching and so on, but... as a... photograph at the end of the day I'm not sure it has quite enough impact to be... erm... terribly interesting. It's a... an interesting thing to do, I'm sure, er... but erm... maybe you should have the jump... taken the photograph on the way down. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] But er... yeah, it's, it's... I find it loses er, a little bit of interest fairly quickly... erm because it's, the main subject, the chap jumping down, I think the road was nicely shown, but... perhaps if you could have just... had a, a longer lens just to make it a bit more important... in the picture. Er, five for that one. [George:] [LAUGHTER]... Leica Three C, manufactured nineteen forty nine to nineteen fifty. [Mark:] [clears throat]... Well... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Well this... to, to photograph anything, this just happens to be a camera and I suppose that would appeal to a lot of camera collectors... to people that I... er er who I work with, people I know, friends and that, they know I'm interested in photography and they always ask me about cameras [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] and I hate it! I [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] and I say well, you know, I'm not really interested in cameras. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Oh! Alright. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] No, I'm interested in photographs but not so much in cameras. I, I'm interested in the cameras which I use and that's it. So, I really know nothing about Leica cameras, I've never used one, I don't particularly know anything about them. Cos this happens to be a camera but it could just as well be... er an electric toaster, or any, any inanimate object... taken... er, in this fashion, and the thing you've got to do if you take a photograph of an inanimate object... er, like this, is to light it correctly, er... it's got to show all the erm, detail finely, and it's got to have good quality in the printing. And I think this one does. I think the lighting on it is excellent. When you look at the... erm... the, all the engraving around the various controls and the nerving on the knobs here, all very nicely... lit. And even, although you can't read it all, it's very hard because it's sort of at a... an oblique angle. Even the engraving and writing on the top... on, on, on the top of the viewfinder here is nicely lit, you can see that it's er... er, the light is catching all the various edges of the engraving on the top. So, very nicely lit. Erm... where... it has lost a little bit of the quality of the lighting... is round the base. You see, especially here, that sort of erm... white metal bit, the er... brushed chrome sort of finish on that tends to get a little bit lost in this white background. It doesn't here, that's fine, it's great here, but, at the bottom... because it, it's not being lit quite so well as the top you're tending to lose a little bit of... quality, especially there. Not so much there, little bit better there, but that... bit so, okay, it's er, you've set yourself a task to do a... sort of a lighting exercise to photograph this camera... er... so,yo you... you know, you must really... control the lights... and the... do the best you can. But I think... you've done very well, with just one little weak area round that but... but it's not easy to do, you've got a very light background... and you've got a very dar presumably black... body of the camera [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] so you... you've got a very contrasting to start with. So, to get the exposure right and get the... the whole thing right throughout is, is not an easy task to do. And this has almost worked, just a slight... there. So, a seven for that one. [George:] Seven. [Mark:] Yes. [George:] Sarah. [clears throat] [Mark:] Very nice er... nicely presented... er print. Lovely mounting and very clean and crisp. And... I often say that... young ladies who are looking over their shoulder like this, you've gotta be careful... of the neck because when they turn round and look over their shoulder you get creases in the neck, and there is a slight crease in the neck there but most of it has been disguised... by covering it... with her hair, so... look out for that when you... have a young lady, or anybody, looking over their shoulder, particularly with young ladies, when they look over their shoulder like that it does cause creases in the side of the neck... which can be unsightly. Erm... I think you've... been conscious of that and have... made sure the hair... has covered the creases up. Erm... the light on her hair is excellent. Very nice lighting on her hair. Again, that sort of mottled background, I don't know whether it's the same background, but it's very similar... to the one [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Mark:] we had earlier. This time we've er included her hand and... because she's got... nail varnish on... er, you've got the sort of highlights coming from the nails which tend to accen accentuate her fingers. However, they're not too obtrusive, they do sort of when you're looking at her shoulder here and her hand wasn't there I could well imagine that you'd get a bright highlight... off her shoulder, so maybe putting hands there it has helped in er, er to, to eliminate that. So, yeah, I quite... er... like the use of the hand in that one. Sometimes hands can be a bit of a problem, but I don't think it is there. Erm... I think it's just a little too much looking over their shoulder because... sh to, to, in order to look at the camera she's having to... keep her eyes over really,yo you know really... over to her... er right, and erm... it tends to be a little bit erm... uncomfortable. I think perhaps not quite so much, you know, bending of the head might have been slightly more comfortable. Nevertheless, I think that's good. Eight, for that one. [George:] [clears throat] Gordon.... Green Bottles. [Mark:] Green Bottles ha? I'll take your word for that. [George:] Hanging on the wall. [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] [LAUGHTER]... Yes they look like erm... yeah I thought they were gourds when I first saw them. I thought they're good gourds. [George:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] Good gourd []! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And by, Gordon. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Yeah, they are gourds. [Mark:] Are they? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Anyway... yeah, there's three of them which is good er... number to have. Any subject... er... three seems to suit, all odd numbers, funny enough, seem to better... than o even numbers, I dunno why, but erm... maybe I've been told that by so many judges I begin to believe it. Erm, but, yeah, I think three is a good number. The third one up here, the small one, is a little bit sort of lost because... it's against er, this sort of... cavity light here so that one tends to get a little bit lost. These two... are quite erm... clear. Erm... the actual shape of them is er... quite... quite interesting and fairly unusual shapes so that's er, an interesting feature. I don't find the... the... the overall thing terribly interesting. I don't think it's a... er... maybe it's because the background, I think, I'm just trying to... make up my mind why it loses a bit of interest, and I think what happens is, that the background being, having all this foliage which is lots of light pouring on er, all this sort of twiggery round here is... er picking up lots of highlights and that tends to detract from the... fairly plain shapes... and smooth surfaces... of the gourds. So, so, I think the background, I think, as I said earlier on that keep the photograph simple... and I think this one, perhaps, has got too much background. It's one of those where the background tends to overpower the subject. Certainly that one is totally overpowered by the background and these ones are tending to be just a little bit. I think it would have been perhaps better if you, somehow er, maybe er I dunno, you could erm, nothing to do with you so you ri you're not in a position to be able to move them... erm... but if it was possible to put them in a, a different situation I think would have made a more interesting picture. Er, six for that one. [George:] The Porch Way. [Mark:] This is a, you know, this is the third one which is er... was similar to others we've had, the steps and we had the other door and... a few steps down, and then, this is all similar types of photographs and all taken from different sort of... angles. Erm, one, the first one, nice... angle to the stairs and the other one looking straight on, and this sort of half and ha half. It falls between the two. I think the composition again is simple, which is, nice light, the simplicity of it. Er... I particularly like the land that it's on there, that adds a bit of interest to it, it's another... view, another sort of... point... to attract your eye. But I think perhaps, that in a way that becomes the main... point is that, although it's called The Porch Way, I mean, you know that's fair enough because you can see it is a porch, it's not clearly defined we we've got this sort of two pillars here, and a little bit of green, so they're losing a bit of shape of the porch... er and this becomes the sort of erm... main... er... point of the picture. I it it's, I think... the porch itself... again is... we're not showing the shape of the porch and the details of the porch in sufficient detail and... it's a pity really because I think that there is a, a nice... photograph to be had there. Er... again, it's all down to... where you're going to stand to take the photograph, and I'm not so sure that you... I think you've gone a little,no you know, I, I criticized the other one a bit, from the same person I think it possibly is because it's the same style, the same sort of mounting. Erm... but I think it's gone a bit too far the other way this time unfortunately. But, it's nice quality, very good printing, erm... another seven for that. [speaker002:] Ha. [George:] Ne next one is no title. [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] Well you couldn't really get much more simple than that. Just this post on a pebbly beach somewhere, er with some very nice clouds in the... in the sky. And I think er... the quality of the printing is again very good. The clouds are nicely shown, the pebbles are nicely shown. And, as this post here, with, whatever it is, it looks as if it's got some paddings on the ground, maybe a, a boat sometimes gets moored up to it and that's just to stop the boat... er banging up agai maybe the tide comes in that far, I don't know. Erm... the actual post I liked, I'm glad it's standing up above the horizon because at least that way, you know,i it does... it's given some dominance in the picture. But once you get down below the horizon you get to look round this area here where there's some rope tangled round, some kind of padding, it does tend to get a little bit lost amongst all the pebbles. So maybe, it would have been better if you could have even got down a bit lower... and to, to, to... get more of it from the horizon. I think the idea of using this in the foreground er, as I was saying, with landscapes, and the same thing applies to seascapes as well, it's nice to have a bit of detail lower down, but I don't think that the... the background, the sort of, main part of the photograph is... terribly strong. I think it really needs to be... the whole photograph needs to be given more strength on making more of this post here. I think the bit that stands up above the horizon is fine, I mean I think that gives you a good idea... of what it would have been like had you been able to get the whole, or not perhaps the whole of it, but a lot more of the post up above the horizon simply by getting down lower. So six and a half for that one. [George:] Six and a half? [Mark:] Yes. [George:] Thank you.... Next one is The Shrimper. [Mark:] I think this is a chap [George:] Yep. [Mark:] wading out there... with a shrimp net. Erm... well perhaps. And again, we've got three... boats. Er... three, a nice number to have of any subject. And they're... nicely separated. But often boats moored up on the river... tend to blend into one another, but these three boats are completely separate, separated, they don't overlap... each other at all. Erm... although we can, if you look closely you can see that this chap has got a shrimp... net in his hand, er... so... you get a fair idea of what's going on. There's a... someone here with a couple of dogs. Erm... but, [sigh] he's a bit sort of lost in it, he's, he doesn't have any dominance really. I think he's overpowered by the three white blobs of the boats. It tends to... it tends to be a bit lost... in the earthiness of the mud and the water. Er, you can see that this is a... I don't know whether, it appears to be darker at the centre than it is round the edges, I don't know whether... you... tried to burn it in just a little bit in the middle, holding back the edges, but it's, it's got sort of a darkish patch... i in the centre. Erm... yeah I, I, it's... the idea's there but I think it does lack a little bit of impact. Th the boats are fine but the... the main... human interest in it does tend to be, in fact, the... personally, the two dogs has... has more prominence in the picture than this chap, which is a pity. I think possibly a long lens, just the having... sort of, the two boats, again, that might have been... better. And a five for that one. [George:] Dusk on Derwentwater. [Mark:] Yeah. Nice... lighting on the hills beyond [George:] [sniff] [Mark:] this is a very good example of er... putting interesting detail... in the foreground in the way that tall bit of... wood there... is really making quite a... a, an interesting subject in itself... in the foreground. Also, the fence which runs out into the... the lake... er... just breaks up the... the distance between the... the piece of wood and the bank. Because the water in itself er, I'm sure that when you're there it's erm... it's a beautiful place to be, but the water in itself in this photograph... has not got the best of light on it. You don't get the good, really good light until you get across the water and out onto these hills and that's where the... the good light is in that erm... top i third of the picture I think is where the real quality is. Erm, the bottom of the picture, perhaps not quite such good quality, but certainly it's got... er, interesting detail.... Lovely clouds. That, sort of, it's got the, it's one of those sort of days I think... when you've got lots of cloud about... broken clouds, so every now and again the sun will come through and light up different areas of the picture. Er, and that's, that's the sort of light you do need for... landscapes, and that's happening over here. Just not quite such lowish light on that... er, foreground, but certainly interesting detail there. An eight for that one. Mm. [George:] No title for the last one. [Mark:] You see this post standing up here... now we've got down a lot lower this time, in fact, I think, it's the same post. [speaker002:] Yeah. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] The erm... much, given much more... dominance in the picture by... making it stand right up above the horizon. And I think this one is... better... for several reasons, I think you can quite clearly see now once you've had a chance to look at this, the other one we saw, we, we eliminated this boat, we eliminate that post and this boat, or rather we just have this post and the sea beyond. Now, same sky [speaker002:] It's the same. [Mark:] but I think now you've included this little foreground it really brings the whole picture to life. And a very good example, if you put these two together just to see what you can do by moving round to a different viewpoint. Er, don't always take the first one... and that you take loads of picture around, if you see an interesting subject, make sure you move around and take loads of pictures, and then select the one for printing. And I think this is a very good... erm... er... illustration of that fact. All you had to do here was to move back a few steps and you've made it much more interesting... in the foreground. So a much more satisfying picture... erm... yeah I think that one works... much better. So, and eight and a half for that one. [George:] Gordon. [Mark:] Okay, so we start judging? [George:] Well yo yes you can do Mark. Let's get... three of copies and... if you do three of the colour you'll be half way. [Mark:] Yeah. We should be. [George:] Alright. [Mark:] Right. Okay er [George:] That's called It's My Teddy. [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Yeah, and I think the way she's cuddling the teddy bear and that expression on her face seems to, to, to suit the title. And also, the use of the yellow background, I don't know, erm... whether it was deliberately chosen or whether she just happened to be standing there, but the yellow background makes it stand out. Erm, you know, it's the sort of picture which captures your eye, and this is... one thing you should try and do with your photography is to capture the onlooker's eye or eye, and having the yellow background, it does. I like the er, you know, the nice little grin on her face, and the way she's cuddling the teddy, erm... teddy that happens to be a rabbit, it leaves us [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] the teddy is a rabbit you could say. [speaker002:] Mm mm. [Mark:] Er... yeah, I think that one's... quite a nice family... album... er portrait. It's not a great competition-winning portrait, but er certainly, it's fine, sort of family album stuff and the sort of thing which'll be in the family for many, many years to come. When she's... sort of, twenty five or thirty, someone will drag this out and say, oh no! Not that again. But er... nevertheless, it would be kept... er for many, many years and quite deservedly so. Erm... a seven for that. [George:] Seven. [Mark:] Now [George:] Dusk at Finchingfield Mill. [Mark:] I think the er... one of the things which helps this... one, is the way it's been mounted. I think this large mount, tends, somehow tends to accentuate the er... the windmill... certainly the colour, the... sort of creamy colour of the mount, and the creamy colour of the windmill go nicely together, as do the sort of more subtle colours in the sky. And er, it's difficult to... know quite how to photograph windmills. Er, you know, do you include all the... four sails? Or do you... move around and just... erm... concentrate on one or more of them? Do you have them going right to the edge? You've gotta... make up your mind how you're going to photograph them. And I think this one... is reasonably successful. I often think that perhaps putting the hub of the sails in, more or less in the centre of the picture perhaps, not the best place, but I think because in this case, we've got a lot of trees down to the bottom here. Although the, the hub of the sails is more or less in the centre of this photograph... it's not in sent not in the sense of, of the area of vision because you've got a lot of dark area here so that tends to move the centre of vision so it becomes... this bit, if you like, and... so that's not in the centre there. So, it doesn't really matter so much in this particular case.... A seven for that picture. [George:] This one is called Nonnie. [Mark:] Nonnie, Nonnie, Nonnie. [George:] Nonnie, Nonnie. [Mark:] Erm... the idea of, sort of, close cropping as you've done here and, you know, that's quite a... an acceptable and... well-known method of showing facial portraits. And I think it does... work nicely because it,th most of the frame is filled with the girl's hair and she's got nice blonde hair, nicely lit, that erm... is a good way of showing off her head. The light on the hair is fine. Where it's not quite so good I feel... is on her face. You got this, sort of shiny nose and quite vast shadow... there and then quite... bright highlight on her bottom lip. So the light on her face is just a little bit too harsh. I don't know whether... a reflector or a, an umbrella was used, but it does need... something, er, some form of lighting which is a little less harsh. I find that... there's, you know... a lot of shade on her face... er... which is a shame. I like the use of the... pe the pearls have made, I think that's good. And the earring does a very nice job... there. Tt. Just a, I find that... she almost looks as if she's been out in the sun and that it sort of looks like very strong sunlight on her face which is a shame really. Needs to be softer, needs to be softer and that can be done by using a... a diffuser over the light, using an umbrella, any way that you can... soften, like using a reflector, all kinds of things to do. Erm... yeah it's a pity really. Er, a seven er for that one. [George:] Next one, Two's a Pair. [Mark:] And... although these are obviously er... at some kind of show because if you look beyond the horses you can see there are marquees... and so on in the background. So it's presumably er... a competition... or a... or er... demonstrating the old fashioned agricultural machinery. It's obviously a show, and I mean... you could well imagine that in the old days you need... horses were really used to do... a full day's work, they didn't have quite such... er... nice clean tack a as these... ones. Certainly they are magnificent animals. And they are, and they're... magnificently photographed. The two... erm handlers here, I don't know whether there's one who's handling and the other one's just... sort of having a chat... with him about... but, you know, they... they're important in the picture but they're not er... you know, the horses completely dominate the, the two people in the picture. And it's nice, I think, to include... this... plough, if that's what it is. No it's, yeah it is a plough. Er, this is a harrow plough. Er, so it's a nice to include that lovely bit of old machinery as well. Very handsome pair of... horses, nicely photographed.... It's not got the creative thing, which, I mean, competition, to get a... a ten, or a nine, you've gotta really have... some creative element in it, this hasn't quite got that, but it is a very strong picture and, and very nicely photographed so I'll give this one, eight. [George:] Eight. Nigel. [Mark:] I don't know if I saw, or that one. Yeah. [George:] If you'd like to do this one Mark then... you can have a break [Mark:] Yeah. [George:] and tha you're, you're [Mark:] Okay. [George:] just over half way. [Mark:] Alright. Erm... well he's certainly... you know, he would go ideally with the horses, I don't know whether this one is [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] at the same show... er [George:] Ha. [Mark:] show or whatever, I, [George:] Mm. [Mark:] I could well, could well be the same... event as that because he certainly... looks to be the right sort of character. Got a lovely... erm... weather-beaten face and the way he's... wearing his hat. I dunno, I dunno whether he's erm... he really could be, I mean... he could be... the thing is he could be... compared to... a hobo. But erm... certainly with this style of hat was commonly worn I suppose to his... and by the people who work on the land, certainly in this part of the world. But he has got the continental grammar sort of Italians, you know what they're like. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Erm, but certainly... erm... but er... he's certainly got an interesting face. And it's nicely lit. Er we, we... this time we don't mind that we've got... fairly harsh lighting because he's a, someone who's used to being out in the erm... all weathers... whether it's... cold or... sunny, I have a feeling mostly sunny. Erm... so that's fine, to have a harsher lighting on his face is fine cos it does tend to show up the... er the wrinkles in his forehead, under his eyes and his whiskers which is fine because... when erm... my old portraits of this nature, that's the sort of thing you're trying to emphasize. And I like, I like the way he's got his hat on. Erm... if he was local, if he was from... Chelmsford we would say he was wearing his hat in the Hollywood fashion, I don't know whether [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] whether that means anything to people who live in Bishop's Stortford but... I've always lived in Chelmsford and people who wore their hat sort of at a... flaunty angle on the back of their heads were always... seem to wearing their hats in the Hollywood fashion. Erm [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] but er... then I suppose it doesn't matter where they come from because it's er... yeah, very nice. I like that. Right a nine for that one. [George:] Gerald. [Mark:] Right. Okay. Yes. But er... this is a sort of a... you know, jigsaw puzzle, chocolate box that type of thing. Erm, nothing... derogatory meant... er by that because the reason... photographs are used for chocolate boxes and biscuits and things and jigsaw puzzles is cos they're good photographs and they, they're... subjects which people like. This is a... very nicely lit cottage. You can see that the er... erm... the texture in the plasterwork, certainly on the front here is nicely shown. And er, I like... the fact that we've got... similar cottages down here, we've got this one here, but... similar ones there so there's nothing in the picture which sort of erm... detracts from that... er very pretty, that little cottage. Nice sky. And just a hint of sea... in the background. Now we, we, the title tells us that's in Cornwall, it doesn't really matter where it is... but erm... just a hint of the sea, a, a super place to live I should think there. Erm, you know, there's a very nice cottage and just a short walk down the road... you're at the se at the... sea. And, also I think it's very fortunate that er... the two cars that are in the picture have been very nicely disguised by the sort of containers, these brick... erm this, this appears to be sort of a stone or a brick wall there... with sort of flowers growing... in them, which has very nicely... dis disguised those two cars... that are parked there. So, that's good. There's nothing in the picture... I don't, there's not even a television aerial or [George:] Mm. [Mark:] anything, there's nothing in there... which does, just a few... er telephone lines er, going across the skyline there but they're very faint, you can hardly see them, you've gotta look very closely to see them. Yeah, I, I... kinda like that one. It sort of grows on you and it, it's er... very good quality, er... nice colours. A nine for that one. [George:] Gordon.... Breaking Waves. [speaker002:] Yeah. [whispering] I thought he said er breaking [Mark:] Now, [speaker002:] waves []. [Mark:] remember I said earlier on in one of the black and white ones that we haven't, we've got some water there which hasn't got nice lines on, well this, this water certainly has. Look at the way those,tha... beyond the waves there, that piece of water, a lovely light... on it. All the ripples in the waves nicely shown. A very simple picture, again, it's er... you couldn't have anything much more simple than this, just two waves coming in onto the... shingle beach... and er... you can almost hear the... the... the waves rushing u running across the shingle. Erm... I think the, the thing about it, which I... th the good points about it th are the light on it, the light on the... water here, the light on the waves here, and even on this one... and also, I think, the choice of mount is very good, that... you know, to choose the blue, it may be a bit obvious but I mean I, you'd be surprised what... some people do with their mounts. Erm... you can, something like this on a red mount or something, you can imagine it would be absolutely hopeless. But to, to, to make it all a very nice... gentle sort of... colours throughout, including the mount is the right sort of thing to do. I think possibly it needs something just to break up this, sort of, the lines, you just got those bands of waves going across there. Er, would have been nice if there'd been a rock or something for one of them to break over. It's just a little bit sort of er... the waves themselves are nice but I think they do need something else in it just to... erm... break up the linearity of the... er er, of the... composition.... A seven and a half. [speaker002:] [whistling] [George:] Tied up. I think. Yes. Yep. [Mark:] Well I'll be... nice little er, a very small boat there but because it's, of the colour it has a lot of impact. It's only a tiny little dinghy, two people in there is about as much as you could... manage. Erm... but it's got impact because of the colour... even the... the trolley that it's standing on... erm, has got er... red wheels, and this... yellow sort of er towing bar there. No, beg your pardon! It's not a towing bar... it's another boat. I thought it was a... towing bar for that, but it's another boat... sort of down in the... in the se se... harbour. [George:] [clears throat] [Mark:] And that's the... colour of the boat. Erm... so it's got a, erm... a little bit of impact because of the colouring to start with. Erm... yeah, it's reasonable quality. It's er... good colours on the... this stone bollard here. Quite nice colours... the lichen and what have you that's growing on there. Erm... maybe the... the composition, having the boat sort of, the bow of the boat just hidden behind there is perhaps... er... not be better. Yeah I know if you'd have moved round to the other side that would have been in the shadow so you wouldn't have got those nice bright colours. Er... bit of a problem with the contrast too, I think the fact that the boat is white on the inside... and the rest of it er fairly dark, I mean [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] this, this is obviously where... the brightest area is and that is becoming a bit burned out because erm... if it was an automatic camera that was used... it's exposed for this... consequently over-exposing on the inside of the boat. [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] Especially painted white and it is reflecting an awful lot of light. A seven for that one. [George:] In Pastures Green. Mm. [Mark:] Couple of very nice... horses. [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] It's er... good composition having the two separated like that. You know, often horses do stand close together and they, sometimes you get them overlapping and that is not the best thing to do, it's nice to have them separated if you possibly can. So when you see a pair of horses... move round... and so that you do get them separated as they are, or any animal, not just horses, any animals really, get them separated, er or any, any object really, it's better to have a little bit of separation. Erm [George:] [clears throat] [Mark:] yeah, I think it's a very pleasant picture. It's not... it doesn't, it's not got a lot of er... excitement about it, it's very pleasant, you can't criticize it for erm... exposure, colours are good. So I'm very, it's not a picture which... unless you are sort of mad keen on horses that i it's perhaps not a picture which... erm... will hold your interest for too long. You know, nothing... a very pleasant picture er o of a couple of horses, very attractive horses, but... if you're not a... a horse enthusiast perhaps it hasn't got quite the same impact, er, as it otherwise would have. [George:] [clears throat] [Mark:] The er... pleasant background, nice light on the horses, but I find the, the subject matter, you know, okay, it's okay but it's not a great competition... winning er, picture. A six for that one.... Here's somebody... having a go at something a little creative. [George:] Altered States. [Mark:] Altered State. Yeah, certainly is an altered state. Erm, er... you know, I don't, I wouldn't even begin to suggest how this particular effect was achieved. I mean, it er... portrait... really is the right sort of subject to, to try out this kind of technique... because er, it doesn't have impact, and here... because the green and the... erm... er, this,th... for want of a better colour, it's really red, it's a sort of purply colour, they're very dark and th the, the actual head doesn't really stand out very much from the... from the background, I think the background [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] colour and th they're, they're too much... they're too dark and er... they need to be, have more contrast. And I'm not so sure that portrait is the best possible... erm... medium to use, or the best possible photograph to use for this type of... er trick. I think that... erm... modern structure and that sort of thing, this type of treatment [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] tends to work better, I'm not so sure portrait is the right thing to do. Erm... er a... it's, it's almost an abstract, it's... a, you know, if, if... one would accept that as an abstract and forget that it's a portrait then it's... perhaps works a little better. The two colours don't go too badly together but er I'm not so sure that I would really want that hanging on the wall, I, it doesn't really appeal to me very much. Sorry about that. But another judge will come along and give it a fine mark, but [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] I'm gonna give it a five. [George:] The Dordogne. [Mark:] The Dordogne. [George:] Mhm. [Mark:] Yeah, I... guessed it was certainly vineyards, I'm... you know, quick like that, you know. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] [clears throat]... Erm... yes, well the high viewpoint obviously is er... er... [clears throat] a thing which... I think makes the picture. It... now whether you're taking a portrait or... anything at all it's always more interesting I think, if you can... take a... a slightly different viewpoint, a di whether it's up high or down below, or whatever... er i that always adds interest to it. We're looking down here, obviously standing on a hill... because here we've got some plants which are... on the hillside... and there's a river here so we're on sort of a... fairly steep slope, I would imagine, down to the river, looking over across these vineyards. Erm... nice lighting... very good sort of er... gentle lighting across the countryside there, nothing very dramatic. Erm, not much drama in the sky. It's a very pleasant picture. Not a great competition-winning shot but er, at the same time it's a, it's a nice enough shot of this particular... area. A very beautiful part of France. Erm... being that I, one of the bits which I think catches your eye is this little house here, although there's lots of them about, because this one tends to be in a slightly darker area, and for some reason that, the light on there is sort of picking that one out rather more than all the others, and I think that's quite a nice... little feature. A seven for that one.... That [George:] Le Tower D'Eiffel. [Mark:] Ooh! Yeah. Oh! Dear oh dear! I like your French accent. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] He didn't know he's... [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] [LAUGHTER]... Yes. Well... yeah, as I say... very recognizable subject isn't it? I [George:] Mhm. [Mark:] I I haven't been to Paris since er... ooh a long time a whe... last time I went there I was on honeymoon so that's a few... years ago. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Did you see the Eiffel Tower []? [Mark:] and er so... there's a landmark now, I don't think tha that was there when I was there. My wife's been a couple of times si since then but not me. Erm... yeah it's a, again, a very... straightforward shot of a... very well internationally known landmark... erm but I think to stand sort of at an angle to this bridge, sort of, so you're, the bridge leads you up to the... archway underneath the tower is a nice viewpoint. So you... obviously thought about where you were going to stand. It might, you might be tempted to walk along the embankment a little further and, and look... along the bridge, and er, sort of straight at the tower. And I don't think that would be anywhere nearly so effective. Much more... effective to... to get the very attractive bridge in as well. And the... the boat going underneath just er at the right sort of time. Yeah, I think that's good. It's not a... erm... you know, it's, it's, it's not a... a sort of print which is going to be exhibited on exhibition walls er er to that extent, but it's a very pleasant erm... shot. It's a very competent shot. Not a, pity there's not a, one or two clouds in the sky. An eight for that one. [George:] Nigel.... Seljuk Peasant... Turkey. [Mark:] I do wondered how you were gonna say that George, that, you know that [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Yeah, I like this one. I think it's a super... erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] portrait... and erm... you can see that she's knitting. Er, lovely light on her hands and on her face, and er... this lovely quality, nice colours... and I think that is a... super... portrait. Erm... the background, can't, having the tree in the background just to fill up the... erm... the bare sky is ideal. She almost has a three D... effect, I er, you know her face really stands out from that background. I, I get a very strong... three D impression from her head. She's stan really sa of stands out from the... the background. I like that one. Erm... be careful with your titles... cos it's not easy to title them. That title is... perhaps a... not quite as straight as it might be, it's got a little bit of a kink in it. Though, using Letraset to title them is not easy to do, you know it's very difficult to keep them on a straight line. [speaker002:] Mm mm. [Mark:] Erm but... nevertheless I do think that is a... a super portrait. I can't really criticize it all really. I'm gonna give that one a ten. [speaker002:] [clapping] [George:] Gerald.... Over the stile. [Mark:] I think the strong point of this... is the light. I mean the lovely... golden light on the... the grass... very late... afternoon light I would suggest... and it's got this lovely warm... colour on the grass. And on this hillside over here. And having someone just climbing over the stile is a good idea with the signpost pointing. It doesn't really matter which way it's going. And er... yo you get the impression that... it's late in the day, the sky's a bit stormy... and maybe... it's time to be thinking about... er getting home and er... I get the impression that that person climbing over the stile... is sort of on his way home after having a super day out walking in the... the Yorkshire Dales or somewhere like that. [speaker002:] And er, the pubs are open. [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah, well it could be []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Yeah, that's very, very nice. Lovely colours... and er... a very nice light in the, in the sky and on the grass here. Perhaps again, it lacks just a little bit of sharpness which you've lost. The colours, the quality and the colours are fine. The actual quality in the, in the er... print... the sharpness, er that sort of thing, is perhaps not quite as good as it should be but I still, an eight for that one. [George:] Eight? Gordon. Knossos, Crete. [Mark:] Knossos. [George:] Knossos. Ka nossos. [Mark:] Ka nossos. Yes, it's a... a typical sort of... Mediterranean er lighting, or Aegean I suppose is it? Erm... if you wanna be really... accurate. Er, it's got... a very lo strong clear sunlight which er... is quite attractive for the type of scene. Not attractive for every subject but for the... where you get these old... erm... broken... walls or summat like that, it's ideal for showing up... er... textures and so on, this type of lighting. This is often why it works, I think, in er, in the Mediterranean er and places... in that area. Er... just a little bit of cloud in the sky which is good. I suppose [George:] [clears throat] [Mark:] you've got to have the tourist there, it's a... I find, tourists, they always wear the wrong sort of clothes. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] I feel a little guilty, but they've always got shorts and T-shirts, which, really, often, to my mind, [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] spoil photographs of... places such as this. Erm [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] you know, we would li I don't mind people being in it, but I'd rather, you know, can you imagine that er... the Greek priest we had in the very first print [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] I mean he would fit into this... er in a, in, in a superb way. Erm... so we just have to accept that tourists don't dress in... those sort of clothes. Yeah, I think that's a... got nice lighting, nice quality... in it. Er [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] a seven and a half for that. [George:] [clears throat]... Brooding Skyline. [Mark:] Yeah I think the, the drama in the sky is the thing which makes this, and the little lighthouse right on the edge of the cliff there... showing up quite nicely. You can imagine that er... on some occasions with a li just a little more sunlight that er... lighthouse would really stand out. Yeah, it stands out reasonably well in this one, but I can imagine it standing out even more under other conditions. Erm... the darkening of the edges, I suppose that's been done to create a little more atmosphere in the picture, and I think it possibly does. And there are some people actually on the beach as well, which I think is important because we've got a lot of... empty area here, fairly featureless... area, but it's nice to have these... two or three people... er... dotted around on the beach. Very nice light on these cliffs over here.... Yeah, I think that one works quite well. An eight for that one. [George:] Heather. [Mark:] Another studio... portrait. [George:] Nadine. [Mark:] Nadine. [George:] Nadine.... [clears throat] [Mark:] She really looks like... Sandy Shaw. But er [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] she's got her shoes on there. Shows your age if you can remember. Some of you might do as well. [George:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Erm... I suppose to most of us here Sandy, Sandy Shaw was. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Yeah it's... [LAUGHTER] [George:] Ha. [Mark:] erm... the thing about this title portrait which I always er... like to emphasize and... is that when you're using props like these stools... or any other props at all in this sort of... glamour photography... then they must be in absolutely pristine condition, and they are here. I just mentioned that so that when you, if you do this type of photography always remember that your props, whatever they might be, must be absolutely in pristine condition. We don't want any chipped paint, or rusty legs on the stools or anything like that. They've gotta be really good... er... good things. Otherwise it tends to make the whole picture, like, I went to er... er one club once and there was a very nice portrait, not unlike this, there was a girl sitting on a stool, rather less clothes on than this girl has got... and it was very nicely done except she was sitting on a painted stool and all the paint was chipped and that to me looked really tacky! And I thought ah, you know [George:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] they're, went to all that trouble to produce a good photograph, and absolutely ruined it with the stool. So, make sure that everything is in good nick. [speaker002:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Erm... yeah, I think the pose is quite nice. I think, possibly erm... having the two different stools is a little bit er... unfortunate. Erm... I don't know... I don't yo I, I think possibly... having that foot up on the stool was perhaps a mistake. [speaker002:] Mm. [Mark:] I think perhaps if you could have arranged her so that er... this foot somehow was resting down here, well it might have been better. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] It looks a little uncomfortable... er... like that. And it looks a little bit sort of set up having that totally different stool brought into the picture. Erm [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] I just wonder whether... erm... I think that stool there might have been better to have her sitting on that one, not quite so high up and she could have adopted a more comfortable pose and she wouldn't have needed another prop for her foot. So I think perhaps, that's where... the picture is not quite right in the, the composition, and also the fact that this stool is sort of [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] being er... chopped off... along the side as well as the leg. So, I think possibly... a little more thought in the actual, I think the actual shape of the girl there, the way she's actually sitting is fine, but er... it, it looks as if she's been propped up with, you know, you better put this stool under your foot to hold that up and... put this crutch under your arm to hold that up and [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] and so on. It looks as if she's had these things put there to support her rather than actually casually sitting on them. But certainly the lighting's quite nice and I think, very pretty girl and... could be better with the better composition. Erm, six and a half for that one. [George:] Feeding Quietly. [Mark:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Feeding? [George:] Feeding. [Mark:] Ya. [George:] Eating. Feeding. [Mark:] It would be, yeah. [clears throat]... Well it [speaker002:] Quite, quite. [Mark:] I think erm, often when... judges, I don't know whether George... or any other judges that might be here tonight, one of the things which I as a judge often dread is photographs of babies coming up in competition. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Not that I've got anything against babies. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] But, it's often difficult because quite often they come up and to be absolutely honest... they're not that good. So, you start to criticize them and you think oh my God! This is someone's baby in the audience that we're, we're having a go at. But that's not the problem here because I think this one... is excellent. I think the light on er the baby's face, I, I dunno whether it's a little boy or a little girl, but it doesn't matter, the light on the baby's face [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] is super. And I certainly love the way that both eyes are catching those lovely highlights! Great big brown eyes. very appealing. Nice light on that sort of, the curls over the forehead. So we've got lovely soft lighting... throughout. Erm... brighter on the side which is furthest away from us, and the fact that he's er, he or she, is eating a, you know a piece of fruit or something... is quite appealing. I like that one. Not quite a ten because I think it's er... you know, this hand here perhaps a little bit er... obtrusive... but certainly I think that one's worth a nine. [George:] Elaine.... Restored to former Glory. [Mark:] Yeah I can remember when I was about er... seven or eight years old I had a... a Hornby... train which is almost identical, except it was red, I go I think some other people had one as well. Hornby loco we had those... things you used to pull out of the cabs and they could go [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] forwards and backwards. [speaker002:] Oh lovely! [Mark:] Erm... and it was almost identical to that. Very nice quality print. Er lovely... I mean,re re restored in absolute pristine condition. Magnificently restored locomotive. [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] And it's standing in the right sort of location in this old station. Erm... a little bit of steam around so you do get an impression that it's erm... you know, it's alive and working... obviously not doing a day's work, but certainly being restored back to working condition. And for anybody who's a, a rail enthusiast would be... er, very pleased with this... shot. And I think possibly that maybe the little bit of a problem with it, it's a little bit too specialized. It's very good... quality, erm... yeah, I think it's, it's... it's, the quality of it is good enough to put it up for,i in the sort of higher echelon of marks. So I shall er... I give that one an eight... for the quality. [George:] Peter.... [clears throat]... Blaze [Mark:] What [George:] Away. [Mark:] Ah! That's an apt title. Blazing the gun away, Blaze Away. Yeah. A little bit of [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] er... thought given to the title of that. I was quite surprised, er during the summer I went to my grandson's school fete... and... they had a hot air balloon... demonstration there and this er, this car turned up with a trailer on the back with, I dunno, probably some name, hot air balloon name on the trailer, I thought oh yes he's... gonna show us how to inflate it and... i I was quite amazed from the time he unpacked the balloon... to the time it actually took off was only ten minutes. I was really quite impressed! I didn't realize that they could be... got ready in such a short... space of time. But anyway, very dramatic shot looking up into the mouth of the balloon with this huge flame going up. I guess th that you must have be actually been in the basket. We don't get the impression erm... of whether you were airborne at that stage. I would think if you weren't, you must have been very nearly. Perhaps... yeah I think you must have been airborne at that stage to be... er, had such a enormous flame going up... into the balloon. Very, sort of, eye-catching because of the nature of it. And I think... it's quite nicely exposed... er... to show the detail in the... erm... the burner. You can see the gas burner here th quite a lot of detail, a hand rail or something around it there, and all the, the details in that burner are quite nicely shown. But most of all obviously the, the great roar y you know, the tremendous noise that they make. Or I believe they have got some quieter ones now. Erm... a seven for that one. [George:] Seven.... Ferry... Zy de Zi [speaker002:] [whispering] That's nice []. [George:] Looks like a mini Battersea Power Station. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [whispering], I dunno []. [Mark:] Erm [speaker002:] [clears throat] [Mark:] yeah I think those three chimneys there... are from a, I dunno, is it, looks as if it could be a... kiln or something, you know. Er, it could be, be a pottery, I don't know. It, they, they certainly look as if they are sort of intended... er to heat things up. That's obviously a furnace [speaker002:] Kiln. [Mark:] at the bottom of each one of those. But nice light on the chimneys and on the sky, and throughout the picture really. I think that's quite intere find a, a nice... composition. And the thing which really makes it are the three chimneys, without those, I think the rest of it would be okay, but not terribly exciting. I think the three chimneys are... vital to the er... the strength of the picture. Quite nice natural colours.... Yeah I think that is er... it's not a great... competition- winning shot, but I still think a seven and a half for that one. [George:] Seven and a half. [clears throat]... The next one is no title. [Mark:] Well it doesn't really need a title, it's a... er... it could be anywhere it's, it, it, sort of got that hint of west country, but it doesn't really matter it's, we're not interested in where it is, we're interested in the... the final image. And er... I think the... that's quite good. Although there's some, but these sort of pictures they always look darker than they actually are because you can see the sun is still pretty high up, so, I imagine that the surrounding... scene was still in quite sunlight, but, looking straight into the sun, as we are here, albeit behind the clouds [speaker002:] [cough] [Mark:] it does have the effect... of darkening everything down. Th the strong highlight on the reflection on the water obviously is a thing which... makes the picture as, and also the, the sort of rays of sun coming down through the cloud. Just enough light around to make out the... that tree there, and a little bit of detail in the... in the foreshore and obviously the headland. But erm... yeah, it's, it's... er good for what it is, but I think this has been done many times before... and er... I sh would think that everybody's seen some just slightly better than this, but it's quite a nice... er sunset. A nice reflection on the water. Er, a six for that one. [George:] Olive Trees. [Mark:] Ah! A pity there, I was gonna... sort of le air my knowledge and say a and say look at these olive trees. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Yes, well, obviously I think, you know they, quite obvious what they are. Erm [George:] [clears throat] [Mark:] I think again, the choice of the mount is good bu you know we tend to associate olive trees growing in hot... erm... erm... fairly dry areas, and I think the choice of the... mount colour accentuates that. Erm... I think possibly just the trees themselves are we you know,th okay they're olive trees, so they're a little bit unusual, we don't... get too many olive trees growing in this country, but... I'm not so sure that they're as... er... that attractive to make... a, a photograph solely out of the olive trees. I think, er you know, they're just a, you know, if, if they were... erm... elm trees or something like that, or... you know blackthorn trees here and you'd taken them in this country, you'd say, oh there's a couple of blackthorn trees! And... here we've got a couple that happen to be olive trees, and I, I'm not so sure that just the fact that they're olive trees... really is... that important. And I think perhaps it's... it lacks a bit of importance, you know, it hasn't got the strength... erm... to stand up on its own. It really needs something else. We need a donkey in it or something like that, you know just to [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] erm... be in keeping with the situation, a donkey there would be, would be nice. But the trees on their own, it's like a scene waiting for something happen. It, it's a bit empty. So a six for that one please. [George:] Deserted [Mark:] Well [George:] Shore. The last one. [Mark:] well guess what? [George:] Deserted Shore. [Mark:] That's right. I think you said that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] [LAUGHTER] Someone sent the boat over []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] You know the [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] You couldn't move around a lot. Move around a bit more [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] a bit more [George:] Tip the boat over. [Mark:] the camera. And you've got a third photograph. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Mark:] Yeah, I, I think again, this er deserves a good, it's a good exercise to do this sort of thing, taking colour and black and white because you can then decide whe... whether one medium has got an advantage over the other or not. And you can, you know you can argue about it, it's a good talking point, good discussion point, and I think you... you will get different opinions er to, whoever you speak to. But certainly the fact that this is being in colour, you know, that boat which is lying there becomes much more important. The red sort of er... erm bit round the top of the boat [George:] [clears throat] [Mark:] is er... becomes important, as does the colour in the sky. So it, this has... some things in the picture gain importance, although I still the black and white ones. Er, now you've chosen this time to eliminate the other boat, we know there's another boat around about here somewhere, and we know there's another post here, so erm... but... if this was shown in isolation we wouldn't have known that. And I think this one stands up quite nicely on its own. Very nice quality. Lovely sky. I, I particularly like the sky in that one. Erm, I think possibly again, if you'd got down a bit lower this sort of little rise in the ground there, that er... that's a, it's erm... what do you call it? A... breakwater... would have just risen up above the horizon and come, become slightly more important. But still, I still think that's quite good. I'll give that one an eight as well. [George:] Heather. I must er [Jean:] Thank you Mark. [George:] That was the last one. [Jean:] Could we have the lights please.... While George is er... doing the marks, I might call on Gerald please to give the vote of thanks. [speaker002:] [speaking very quietly] Evening everybody. Can you hear, hear me over there? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yeah? Once again, Mr has done us proud. I've heard hundreds of judges in the last few years and Mr is one of the very few... who, in, in every picture delivers a very picture. He comes up with a little piece of advice on how to... make that picture, or the colouring, or the mounting better. And you don't often see the... every picture he tells something, something nice about it. [LAUGHTER] And compared with mine as well you see. [LAUGHTER] About this time last year... I think it was the same week... he came there were five judges that he picked every year... for fifteen years. Oh! And despite, you know, managed, he somehow he'd get them through and get. But we've had a very good evening and we must thank Mr for it. So, in our usual way, a vote of thanks. [clapping] [George:] Thanks very much Mark, you've given me the hardest part. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [George:] Anyway, erm... on the night monochrome prints... Elaine and Alf tied with twenty four. Gordon had twenty three and a half. Heather had twenty one and a half. And Gloria had sixteen. So aggregation then with number one, we have Gordon leading the way with fifty and a half. [speaker002:] [clapping] [George:] [clears throat]... But Alfie was second with forty nine and a half. [Jean:] Oh! [George:] So there's not a lot, lot in that. Heather is forty six, she's third. Elaine is fourth with forty four. And technicolour, on the night... er top of the shop tonight was Gerald who gave the vote of thanks, who got twenty six and a half. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [George:] [LAUGHTER] And []... but, we have... Nigel, Gordon, and Heather [Jean:] Tt! [George:] all with twenty three. Vince has twenty two. Bill and Elaine have twenty one each. [Mark:] [cough] [George:] Erm... aggregating again with number one... Gerald is leading the way with fifty two and a half. [speaker002:] [clapping] [George:] And then we have erm... Nigel with forty nine. And then, Gordon and Heather both with forty six. Elaine with forty five is fourth. And Peter forty four and a half is fifth. [Jean:] Thank you George. [speaker002:] Well done George. [Jean:] Thanks. Right, well next week is the auction. Er... we have got some, one or two expensive items so... bring your [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jean:] money bags along. Er, if anybody's got any items that they haven't told me about tonight and they go before perhaps you'd be kind enough to give me a phone call. And if you could get here by half past seven those of you who have got items, it'll be much appreciated cos it takes quite a time to... to set them out. Er, the coffee next week is going to made by Jane and Peter. Er, next week will be the last week for selling tickets for the social... so if... you'd like to come... tickets next week. And if you haven't made arrangements about your dinner... after Christmas, would you please do that now. I'll leave you to say goodnight, thank you for coming.

[Douglas:] Erm, [Dave:] It's Culture Beat and Cherry Lips, which is our out-tro music [Douglas:] Erm, [Dave:] but unfortunately, something's wrong with the equipment, or something [Douglas:] Oh, I see [Dave:] so it jumped to this different track, with different timing, and it came up, I like you, so I thought, oh, let it roll. [Douglas:] Is that an early Christmas present, that sweater? [Dave:] Do you know how old this sweater is? [Douglas:] No [Dave:] What do you think, what do you think? [Douglas:] Pam Dixon's here, the bearded wonder has taken himself off for the weekend [Dave:] Yes, er [Pam:] I thought you were calling me the bearded wonder then. [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Dominic's changed dramatically, [Douglas:] I know, I know [Dave:] Dominic you do look strange since [Douglas:] Yes, I know [Pam:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] And this is [Douglas:] The nicest looking edition of Dominic I've ever seen [Pam:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] A much better Dominic, you've improved dramatically [Pam:] Thank you very much [Douglas:] Yes [Dave:] This is, you're not gonna believe this [Douglas:] no go on tell, tell me [Dave:] Right, like it, it is about fourteen years old [Douglas:] Is it really? [Pam:] It looks, it looks as good as [Dave:] Is it nice? [Pam:] Yes Christmas red you see [Douglas:] And still, still still fits you, you haven't put a weig you haven't put any weight on at all. [Dave:] [clears throat] [Douglas:] Anyway [Dave:] It's running up the stairs that does it. [Douglas:] Pam's rather impatient to get on [Dave:] Is she? Oh why? [Pam:] [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] Yes, she absolutely is so, we'll have to erm, find out from you what they've been talking about. [Dave:] Well, we had our Friday debate [Douglas:] Mhm. [Dave:] and the Friday debate was, Christmas has lost its meaning because of commercialization, it was er the old chestnut, you know. Well, ninety percent, nine O percent agreed. [Douglas:] Erm [Dave:] Ten percent disagreed, and I was not surprised. [Douglas:] it starts a lot earlier, doesn't it, ever earlier. [Dave:] It does, end of November, we've got another two weeks to go, oh it's, Christmas should be Christmas shouldn't it? You know, one of the effects are a little bit tranquil but anyway, the other thing which erm, everyone really enjoyed, er, cos I know you would remember this er, Dougie, is your first kiss [Pam:] [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] Oh, I don't think I can, it's so long ago. [Dave:] Oh come on Douglas, come on [Douglas:] No, no it's so long ago, no, no, no, no. [Dave:] Can I ask you, when was your first kiss, Pam? [Pam:] It was erm, I shouldn't think, I shouldn't say this on the air, it was f on a cellar steps, at a teenage party. [Dave:] Disgraceful, that! [Pam:] I had to go and look at somebody's chandelier, that was hanging in the cellar [Dave:] Really [Pam:] erm [Dave:] Oh dear, Dougie's getting a bit, I see Dougie's getting a bit er, yeah, erm [Douglas:] A bit hot under the collar. [Pam:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Anyway, one lady said, [Douglas:] Go on, [Dave:] one lady said she was put off for life after her first kiss, and never kissed another man. She's now in her seventies. [Douglas:] Yes, it's the effect you have on women [Dave:] [LAUGHTER] Someone had a kiss in a broom cupboard. I don't know what that was like [Pam:] a broom cupboard [Douglas:] lovely, [Dave:] a kiss after Postman's Knock, [Douglas:] yes. [Dave:] and one lady was told by someone who kissed her first, first kiss, said to her, she was just a natural [Douglas:] Right [Dave:] I thought, so I'll leave it at that [Douglas:] as the song says, a kiss on the hand is quite, continental, diamonds are a girl's best friend. [LAUGHTER] Right, and on that happy note, we'll start with the news, Dave thank you very much indeed. Well er there's some happy news. Three British hostages are on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from a jail in Baghdad. The release of Paul, Michael and Simon follows a mercy mission by former Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath. Iraq is denying that the move is a bid to have sanctions lifted. Well it's one of the talking points this morning, if you'd like to give me a call. Has a deal been struck do you think, what's in it for Saddam, what's in it for Britain? I'll be talking to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier, later in the programme. In fact, after the seven o'clock news, but if you'd like to get ahead with er one of your comments, then it's. Labour has broken off parliamentary relations with the government, the move which will end the system of pairing for Commons' votes, is in protest of plans to rush controversial legislation through the Commons. And, health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced the Channel Tunnel has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers. The tunnel is due to open next May, but the Health and Safety Executive say procedures still haven't been tested. On that talking point perhaps, would you go through the Channel Tunnel, knowing what you know about it at the moment? Anyway, Pam Dixon has sat very, very patiently through all this claptrap with laddie, now here's the sport. [Pam:] and Michael and Stefan Edberg meet in the semi-finals of the Grand Slam Cup in Munich. The winner is set to be some half a million pounds better off. And you might be better off if you put a tipple on the old racing today. It's at Doncaster and Cheltenham. [Douglas:] Well, Derek had another winner, he's had a very good week Pam, by his standards. He's had three winners in four days, and he had at Fakenham yesterday, at fifteen to eight, so not too bad a day for again yesterday. [Pam:] Fingers crossed. [Douglas:] Right, see you in the six o'clock news er spot. [Pam:] Okay. [Douglas:] Okay, right, time to check on the first travel report of the morning. Rob morning... Twenty one minutes to six the time, if you'd like to give me an early ring, then it's. Well, quite a few talking points this morning. First of all, the main story in our news at five thirty, and I think unless anything more dramatic happens, it will be the main story right through the news bulletins of this programme. Three British hostages on their way home from Iraq after being freed from jail in Baghdad, Paul, Michael and Simon. They're released, and all this follows a mercy mission by Sir Edward Heath. Well, I wonder if you feel that er, there's something more to this than meets the eye. Saddam has never been known for doing something for the benefit of others. It's obviously for the benefit of Saddam, and I wonder what you think that benefit might be? Do you think some deal has been struck? Saddam certainly has done his best to milk the whole occasion. I think it was er fairly evident that he had given permission for the three British hostages to be released after Sir Edward Heath's meeting with Tariq. But er no, Sir Edward had to go through the full rigmarole of a meeting with the great man, I put that in inverted commas, but er I suppose he thinks he is, the great man himself, Saddam Hussein. So, I wonder if you feel there is a deal. I wonder if you feel that even if there was a deal, the British government, the Foreign Office, represented as they were, so admirably really, by Sir Edward Heath, he seems to have done a very good job, I wonder if he had to work very hard, or do you think perhaps, anybody could carry that out? Sir Edward, of course, has had experience in getting hostages freed before. So er, perhaps he was the man for the job. There's a lot to discuss here, and er I just wonder if you'd like to throw in your two penn'orth before I talk to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier on this subject, after the seven o'clock news. is the number to ring. Now, another story that is er an interesting one this morning, and I'd like to hear your view on, families with two television sets could soon be paying twenty pounds extra for their licence, to lessen the burden on hard-up viewers. Well, a lot of people might think that is very fair, the new charge would mainly hit households where the children are allowed their own sets. But of course, a lot of er family homes now have er more than one set, perhaps more than two. There's generally one in the main parents' bedroom, perhaps there's one in one in er one of the youngsters' bedrooms, there could even be one in the kitchen these days. So er, I just wonder if you feel it is fair that er you should pay twenty pounds extra for another set. I wonder if you should pay twenty pounds more again if you have a third set and again if you have a fourth set. Give me your views on this. Other changes, this is the Commons' Heritage Committee of MPs who er were sitting yesterday, under their er leader Gerald Kaufman, the former Labour politician, well he still is a Labour politician, but er he's not so high profile now in politics, but he seems to be creating a bit of a stir here. Other changes include high, higher charges for hotels, a new fee for car radios, and an increase in specialist programmes, funded by subscription. But I think the twenty pounds extra for another telly is the one that er you might like to comment on this morning.. Health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced the Channel Tunnel has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers, and after that incident a few weeks ago, which was er certainly played down by the authorities, I wonder just how safe the Tunnel is. Well, it doesn't open till May, but the Health and Safety Executive say that safety procedures still haven't been tested, and even if they had, would you go through the Tunnel? I was at a dinner other night, er where er French Railways were the hosts, and of course they were doing their best to er tell everybody to travel through the Tunnel naturally enough, because that's what their trains will be doing come May, and er one or two people, it must be said, were just a touch sceptical. I wonder, if you'd been at that dinner, would you have joined them in their scepticism.. Now, at around twenty five minutes to seven, I'll be talking about a fascinating report in She magazine, and it's entitled How to Survive House Guests from Hell, and it's a seasonal item, and of course we all know that er we, a lot of people er go to stay with friends and relatives over the Christmas period. Frequently they stay for some days. And it will be some days this time, because Christmas day is on Saturday, so it's a very long, long weekend and holiday period. So if you have house guests for the festive period it could be that they might be staying four or five days. I wonder if you're looking forward to it, perhaps many of you are? I wonder how many of you are dreading it, it's the duty visits, it's the duty receiving isn't it really? There's a Danish proverb, you know, that states that fish and guests smell after three days and er we all know the visits which have begun so successfully from friends and relatives, it needn't be Christmas, it could be at any time of the year, which are often ruined by people lingering on well past their sell-by date. So, we'll be looking at er, some of the categories of people who come to stay. And we'll be looking, more importantly, at how you can perhaps get rid of them when you want, or even better, er put them off altogether. That's er a little bit of fun in that, but er we might have a little bit of advice for you if you are preparing to receive guests you'd rather not see over Christmas. If er you've had dreadful experiences with er guests staying at your place, give me a ring on and share your horrid experiences with me. And of course the tragic death, far too early really, for Danny Blanchflower cut down by disease, and er one of the greatest footballers, I suppose, not only of his generation, but of anyone's generation and er, how sad it is, that we should lose two of our greatest footballers in this one year. Both the old style wing-halves, I suppose they'd call them mid-field players now, Bobby Moore and now Danny Blanchflower. Danny graced the Spurs team of course, er completed the double with them, when he was captain, and I know a lot of Spurs supporters will remember those days. Perhaps you'd like to reminisce and say was he one of the greatest players ever to put on a Spurs jersey. I suspect he was, or come to that a Northern Ireland jersey. It's fourteen minutes to six.... A quick reminder, many people will know, but a quick reminder and er, if you've perhaps just come back from holiday yourself, or you're one of our new listeners, you may not know so I'll tell you, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call, this very programme, will be breaking new ground at the end of next month. We'll be travelling down under to Australia, and coming live to you for a whole week from Sydney. And, this is the exciting bit as far as you're concerned. You could be travelling with me. We're looking for two couples to make the trip with the programme. It'll be a working holiday, but my goodness it'll be the experience of a lifetime and to find out how you can join us stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Eleven minutes to six is the time, and if you'd like to give me a ring on any of the subjects I've mentioned, then it's. People are joining us all the time, so I'm very briefly er just in a word or two, going to go over the subjects, and then if you want to give me a ring, please do so.. The main story of the morning as far as our news bulletins are concerned. The three British hostages, released from jail in Baghdad, now on their way home from Iraq. Sir Edward Heath has done an admirable job, do you think that the die was cast anyway? That er any er public figure worth his salt could have achieved what Sir Edward has done, or do you think he's brought something special to the negotiations, and why has Saddam done it? Not for the benefit of others, he never does anything for the benefit of others, one can only feel that he sees some advantage in releasing these British people. What is it? Has a deal been struck? and if a deal has been struck, what do you feel it might be? and do you really mind, as long as these people have been released? And let's not forget there are one or two more in there as well. They may not be British, but er there are more hostages in there, because hostages really are what they are. Twenty pounds more for any extra television set that you may have in your house. Do you feel that's fair? Another twenty quid if you have a second television set on your licence, I wonder? And, how to survive house guests over Christmas. If you've had a horrifying experience with some visitors that you've invited, then let me know.. Nine minutes to six, the time. Frances has joined me from Harrow. Good morning. [Frances:] Good morning. I would just going to talk about the television licences. [Douglas:] Please do [Frances:] Erm, well if we have to pay twenty pounds extra for erm, an extra television, what about the shops that sell them? [Douglas:] Mhm. [Frances:] Will they have to pay twenty pounds for each television that they have? Because I assume they pay er, just for one licence now? [Douglas:] Do you feel it's a good idea? [Frances:] No, I don't. I mean, some people erm, are elderly and they're confined to their homes, they may have one downstairs, and one in their bedrooms. [Douglas:] Mhm [Frances:] I mean, I only have one er, I would like two, but my husband doesn't want another one, but [Douglas:] Is, is that because you can't afford it? [Frances:] Oh no, well erm, I assume we could afford it, he just doesn't like one in the bedroom so we have one downstairs. Fair enough. [Douglas:] Mhm. [Frances:] But other people erm, I, I think it's a lot of money. It's enough that you have to pay for the licence, which is erm, what is it eighty pounds [Douglas:] Er over eighty quid isn't it? [Frances:] Yes, that's right [Douglas:] Eighty three pounds I think. [Frances:] Well, it's erm, every other station on, on erm, has erm, advertising, why can't the B B C now have advertising? [Douglas:] Ah, well now that's a different erm barrel of worms isn't it really? [Frances:] Well, if that's going to help them with the money, then they won't charge for extra televisions. [Douglas:] Right, so you reckon that er they shouldn't charge twenty quid more for another television set, they should take some advertising? [Frances:] That's right [Douglas:] What on B B C One? [Frances:] On all of them, why not I mean, erm, on B B C One and B B C Two. Every other station has, you even have advertising on radio, why can't you have it now on B B C One and Two and cut down the eighty pounds? [Douglas:] Well yes you don't have advertising on B B C radio of course do you? I mean the B B C er television and radio is er still what we call er, state controlled, isn't it really? Not, not a commercial sector at all. [Frances:] Yes, but if erm, they want to put their licences, er they're the only ones that have the revenue from the television anyway, [Douglas:] Mm. [Frances:] why can't they now decrease that, and er start doing advertising? [Douglas:] Okay Frances, well, er, we'll get some comment on that after the six o'clock news, I'll be bound. Never mind paying twenty pounds extra for a second television set, and another twenty pounds if you have a third set in your house. Why don't the B B C, both radio and television, take advertising, and then we not only would not need to pay an extra twenty quid, we probably wouldn't need to pay the eighty odd pounds that we're paying already for a colour television licence. And now throw something else in. How about a special purchase tax on televisions, what do you feel about that? Ring me, and we'll take your calls after the six o'clock news. The number, as ever,. It's six and a half minutes to six. Judy Flowers here to have a look at our stars. Good morning. [Judy:] Good morning, Doug [Douglas:] Well, it's a bit of a sandwich this weekend, isn't it really? [Judy:] [LAUGHTER] It is []. We t we sometimes talk about sandwich days don't we, sort of you know the morning, the evening and the middle of the day? [Douglas:] Yes, we do, we do. [Judy:] Well, this is very much a sandwich three days, because we've got today and Sunday looking quite good, but a rather difficult and tense Saturday sort of tucked in between. B er, both today and Sunday look very good for socializing and generally enjoying life, but on Saturday I think it's going to be very important to keep things in perspective. [Douglas:] Why is that, why has Saturday got in there? Among the bad ones? [Judy:] Well, we've got, er, we've got a difficult aspect, a rather tense aspect. It's got nice flowing aspects today and Sunday, and these rather tense ones coming up on Saturday, so that's why it is. [Douglas:] Mm. [Judy:] And, this is particularly so, this er keeping things in perspective, for you Sagittarians tomorrow. [Douglas:] Well, I'll tell you one thing, Monday's not gonna be wonderful for me, I've got to go into hospital for a little operation er b but seriously, I'll be out on Tuesday, but I'll, I'll be away for the week er, because the Doc said don't come back to, to work till a week on Monday, so I'll, I'll try and listen if I can, but what have you got for us? [Judy:] [LAUGHTER] The aspects on Monday are very good, Douglas, so don't worry. [Douglas:] Are they? Good, good. [Judy:] Yes, there's a new moon and a lovely aspect between Mars and Saturn, which is all about disciplined and constructive action. Have a very good weekend everyone, Douglas, have a, like I said, a good week, get well soon, come back and see us soon. I'll be back with Jeff Clark on Monday. [Douglas:] Yes, indeed, Jeff here on Monday. I'll be back, er, hopefully a week on Monday. Hope so anyway. Right, erm, the travel before the six o'clock news. [speaker006:] [music of waltzing matilda playing] [Douglas:] Thought we'd play a little er different version this morning, just to er change things round a bit, but the message is the same. At the end of January, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call will be broadcasting live from Sydney, and in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can win the chance to travel with me, all expenses paid. Stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline.... Nine minutes past six, and it's the morning of Friday, December the tenth, if you've just joined us, as many people do after the six o'clock news, or even before the six o'clock news, welcome along to the programme. Now some of the main talking points this morning, certainly the big story as far as the bulletin is concerned this morning, or one of them anyway, one of the top two. The three British hostages, who are on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from jail in Baghdad. The release of Paul, Michael, and Simon, follows a mercy mission by Sir Edward Heath. Iraq is denying the move in a bid to have the sanctions lifted, but er I just wonder. Er, we heard yesterday from some of your phone calls, and indeed we heard, and some of us may have seen on the television news on Wednesday evening, the desperate plight that many Iraqi civilians are now in. The sanctions really are beginning to bite and I wonder if Saddam feels that er he may be able to ask a favour or two from the West, in return for the release of these three British men. He never does things er for the good of er the people concerned. It's generally for the good of himself, and I wonder what's at the back of his mind with the release of Paul, Michael and Simon. Do you feel some deal has been struck with the British government? If it has, do you worry about what deal it is, as long as these three men are released, or do you say we shouldn't do deals with people like Saddam? Did it send a feeling of revulsion down you er when you saw Sir Edward Heath shaking hands with Saddam Hussein yesterday? Or did you feel, well, he's done an admirable job. Do you feel that anybody could have done that job? Or did it have to be somebody like Sir Edward? A lot of things to answer, and er I'd like your replies please on on that particular story. Now, already we've had calls on the next story. Families with two television sets. How do you fancy paying twenty pounds extra for the second set? Well I know you don't fancy it, but do you think it's fair? Well, this has been suggested by MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, and this is part of their proposals to spread the burden of the B B C's one point six billion pound costs. It would, they say, lessen the burden on hard-up viewers who can't afford the eighty odd pounds, I think it's eighty three pounds isn't it for a television li a colour television licence now? Anyway let's call it that, it's around that. Eighty three pounds. It would er reduce the burden on those who can't pay. So I wonder what you feel? And I wonder if you feel that er if you have three television sets, then you should pay twenty pounds for the second and another twenty pounds for the third. Now, er some people are ringing up this morning saying well why, why the devil should we pay. Why if the B B C want to make more money, first of all, can't they get after the licence dodgers? Well, I think they are making great inroads now into catching a lot of people who er simply refuse to pay er their television licence, but of course there are a lot more who er are still escaping the net. But er, if they got a few more of those it might help. But the main thrust of your argument this morning, is that the B B C, both television and radio, should take advertising. Well, I wonder if you feel that's a good idea. I know people who will say it's not a good idea, and that's the people in commercial television and commercial radio, who, if the B B C started to take advertising, would see their slice of the cake get just a touch less. So, er we here may not think that the B B C should take advertising, but er let's hear your views on. The Channel Tunnel in the news again this morning. Health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced that it has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers. The Tunnel is due to open next May, not very long really you know, but the Health and Safety Executive, say safety procedures still haven't been tested. Well, we had that incident didn't we, several weeks ago in the tunnel, which the authorities er tried their best to play down? I wonder, bearing in mind that incident, however serious, or minor it was, would you be one of the first to go through the Channel Tunnel? Er, would you be perhaps, er, willing to see how it went, and then maybe go through it next summer or next winter, or would you never, ever go through it ever?. At twenty five to seven, just after the six thirty news sequence, we're gonna be talking about a report in the latest issue of She magazine. Everyone, I think, is vulnerable to the guest, or guests that descend upon you from time to time. Generally relatives from Scotland in my case, and decide to stay, having invited themselves, and you can't really turn them away, er, decide to stay for two or three days. Well, some of them you greet with more affection than others, it must be said. And er, a lot of people of course, will be looking forward, or perhaps dreading Christmas, and the guests that are coming to stay at their house. If er, you've got guests coming, are you looking forward to it, or are you not, and er I'd love to hear some horror stories of er past Christmases, when you've had er perhaps unwelcome guests, or guests who've overstayed their welcome. Well, we may have a few helpful hints. I'll be talking er, to the writer of the article in She magazine in about twenty minutes' time, and er we'll discuss with her, how you make the best of these unwelcome guests. They fall into some categories don't they, like the lazy slob, who never does anything, never washes a dish or ne never helps at all around the house, so even though they stay there for about a week. So, er, I'm sure we all know them, how to stop them coming, or get rid of them as soon as possible. That's what we'll be attempting to find out in twenty minutes' time. And Spurs fans especially, but football fans in general, I'd like to hear your tribute please, to Danny Blanchflower who died so tragically at the age of sixty seven yesterday, from Alzheimer's Disease. I suppose er, he must be in the top ten of all-time great British footballers, wouldn't you say? One of the greatest players ever to put on a Spurs' jersey I would think. A man who led Spurs to the League and Cup double, some thirty or so years ago. You must have some memories of Danny Blanchflower, playing for Spurs and Northern Ireland, if you'd like to share them with me, it's. It's sixteen minutes past six.... Seventeen minutes past six is the time, and we still have some trouble on the travel front because we've got delays on the Northern Line of the underground. When I say we've got some trouble, we do, but it's not like the trouble we had half an hour ago, when in fact there were three lines, sections of which there were no trains on at all. But, er, that's been resolved fortunately, we've still got some delays on the Northern Line, and er, obviously do allow yourself a little extra time if you're a Northern Line traveller. If you're one of that unhappy breed. Maybe I'm doing them a dis-service, but I don't think so. Right the cancellations on British Rail.... Right, we'll take some calls after this, starting with Humphrey from Kew, David from Pinner and Bob from Edgeware.... [music of waltzing matilda playing] And that by now familiar music to many of you means that in five minutes it will be the Dougie Down Under competition thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. As many of you will know, we are going at the end of January, with the programme, to Australia, to be broadcasting live from Sydney for a whole week to mark Australia Day. And we're looking for two couples, er it needn't be husband and wife particularly, although it'll be er very nice if it is, but it can be mother and daughter, father and son, any combination you like really. Two couples to come to Australia with us, and to act as roving reporters, travelling round the country, reporting on what they see to me, on the telephone, live on the programme, all expenses paid, thought I'd just er let you know that er very important fact. And of course, the fact that you are going to be roving reporters will mean that you will have to, if you become a finalist, be able to do an audition live on air. You must of course, have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. So, in five minutes, I'll be asking you the fifth and final question, which could result in you're going out next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Twenty and a half minutes past six is the time. Humphrey has rung me from Kew. Good morning. [Humphrey:] Good morning Douglas. Erm, I want to talk to you about erm, em,hosp hospitality over Christmas. [Douglas:] Right. [Humphrey:] Erm, to, to, as, as, this, part of it, part of each other,Th Th Thursday, one horrific er erm, guest that my mother had in, in our house down in Gloucestershire, erm, she has a lot of clients, er erm, she's an artist, erm, erm, this woman, erm, er,w er, went up to her bedroom, and erm, and was standing b b by the electric fire and fire, and erm, very nearly scorched her nightdress. In er incredible, and erm, she asked to come away, and erm, erm, she, my mother was, was up, up half the night with it. What [Douglas:] Oh, That's all you need isn't it, really? Yes. [Humphrey:] Yes, absolutely, set the house on fire [Douglas:] Oh, my goodness me, Humphrey that's a horrifying experience. [Humphrey:] Yes, yes. [Douglas:] And I wonder if anybody can match that, I don't mean match that, when she nearly set off her nightdress on fire [Humphrey:] Quite... but I... no [Douglas:] it's a Freudian slip isn't it really? But, er what a horrifying experience. Of course, these things can happen really, er especially if er, one of two of the guests, I'm not suggesting your mother's guests er over-imbibed, but one or two of the guests do have a few jars over Christmas and they get up to all sorts of things in the house don't they? [Humphrey:] Douglas, I've got two very, very, very, quick, quick, quick very funny stories, [Douglas:] Yes [Humphrey:] erm,f from the erm, erm, former Bishop of Gloucester, erm, what is erm, and what is your erm,def definition of hospitality? [Douglas:] What is my definition of hospitality? I don't know Humphrey, what is your definition of hospitality? [Humphrey:] Making people feel at home when you really wish they were. [LAUGHTER] And another one, [Douglas:] Yes? [Humphrey:] erm, what is your definition of happiness? [Douglas:] Definition of happiness, what is it? [Humphrey:] Eating with nice people,... drinking with nice people, and sleeping with a clear conscience. [Douglas:] Humphrey, thank you for that. Twenty two minutes past six is the time. David has rung me from Pinner. David good morning. [David:] Er, good morning Douglas. I'd like to well, number one I'm an Arsenal fan, but I'd like to speak up on er on the tragic loss yesterday. [Douglas:] Of Danny Blanchflower? [David:] Because to me Danny Blanchflower, we lost England's number one, now we've lost Ireland's number one, and it looks like we could even lose John, before long, of a similar type of er illness. [Douglas:] Yes, I, I was actually just saying to my wife last night, erm, who would have ever thought that in the same year, we could have lost two of the greatest wing-halves, as they were in those days, but I suppose mid-field players they'd be known as today, who'd [David:] Yes. [Douglas:] have ever thought in the same year, we'd have lost two of the greatest players that this country has ever seen. [David:] Yes, but er, the other thing, Douglas, the sad thing about it was, Danny Blanchflower was great er, on and off the field, and it was the old heavy ball, and the longer you played with it, the heavier it got, and then you had that lace in the centre, difficult to er, head a ball, then you had the studs, well, as you know yourself, it's nails. Half of them were badly worn, everybody was open to erm, serious leg injuries [Douglas:] Yes. [David:] and erm, that finished er, er, Derek er, er of Sheffield Wednesday. [Douglas:] Derek [David:] Derek, sorry. [Douglas:] Derek. That's right, yes. [David:] But er, finally about er, our great er Tottenham er player. I don't think the guy was ever booked. [Douglas:] No, I shouldn't think he probably was, David, thank you very much indeed. [David:] Anyhow, I hope all goes well for you next week. Don't worry, it's not too bad Douglas. Bye. [Douglas:] Oh, you've had one have you? [LAUGHTER] Yes, they're referring to the fact I'm just going for a, it's a hernia operation actually, so er everybody says, oh you, no problem at all. Hope they're all right. Bob from Edgeware. Good morning Bob. [Bob:] Good morning. I haven't recovered from Humphrey yet. Erm, [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] He's a card, isn't he? [Bob:] erm, right, Julie erm. I'm glad her husband and all the others are coming home. [Douglas:] Yes. [Bob:] But I'm very annoyed with er, the incessant canting about the John Major government. Does she really think that Edward Heath would have got the connivance of the Foreign Office or the government, without it being sorted out beforehand? All it needed was for the envelope to be stuck down. [Douglas:] You, you don't think then, that Sir Edward Heath did anything special to get the release of these men? [Bob:] Not really, and to use your words, was there anything about any revulsion of watching them shake hands with Sa that animal, Saddam Hussein. [Douglas:] Well, I wonder. You see, see. I, I, I, I just wonder how many people would say oh, that's awful. I never thought I'd see the day when a British politician shook hands with Saddam Hussein. W w what was your own particular feeling Bob, on that? [Bob:] Well, I don't, I'll be fair. I don't like Edward Heath at any time, so I'm slightly prejudiced. He went there, he shook hands, he'd shake hands with a vulture if he thought he could get him up the pedestal, but that's neither here, something was done. A deal was done. I don't think there was a promise, you will get. The promise was probably vague, we'll see it, we may use our good offices to the United Nations to some sort of embargoes or, that's all ca they're likely to be promised because we're not in a position to promise anything. [Douglas:] Okay Bob, well Bob thinks that a deal was perhaps done. We'll be talking about this to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier after the seven o'clock news. It's now six twenty six.... [music of waltzing matilda playing] Right time for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Two couples must win an all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the Breakfast Call comes live from Sydney at the end of January. We've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, but now here is the final question. What is a baby kangaroo called? What's a baby kangaroo called? Now, as soon as you have the five answers, and do remember that if you er, didn't hear any of the other ones, they will be repeated next week, so you'll have a chance to write all the five answers down. I want you to send them in to me, and here's where er it becomes a little bit different from other competitions, I want you to send them in to me on a Christmas card please. We want to get really festive about this, so answers on a Christmas card only please, to the following address.. Answers, the five of them, on a Christmas card, to and your cards to be in please, by first post, next Friday, the seventeenth. Six twenty seven.... Right, after the six thirty news sequence which is coming up directly, we'll be talking about a fascinating report in the January edition of She magazine, about house guests who may well be coming to you for Christmas, and who may well outstay their welcome. We've all had them, haven't we? in the January edition of She magazine, but although it's the January edition, it er does pertain to Christmas, because it's all about the guests you invite to your home over the festive period, some of whom you could well do without.... Well Christmas coming on apace, it's twenty two minutes to seven by the way, and it's coming far too fast for er many people I know. It's er gonna be with us a fortnight tomorrow isn't it really, and I wonder if you've got people coming to stay over the festive season, and I wonder if you're looking forward to it? Undoubtedly, some of you will be, but there must be one or two people who are actually dreading Christmas er bearing in mind that they've had to ask somebody whom they don't really want in their house, or perhaps that person or people have asked themselves, and it's very difficult to know how to refuse isn't it really? Especially when they come from a long way, away. Well, how to deal with such guests, and er what sort of categories do they fall into. There's a fascinating article in the January edition of She magazine, it was written by Madeline Rice and she's on the line to me now. Madeline a very good morning to you. [Madeline:] Good morning to you. [Douglas:] Right the problem is of course, that a lot of these visits start off quite well, but they wear a bit thin after the er third or fourth day, don't they? [Madeline:] Yes, there's a er favourite proverb of mine, a Danish proverb, that says er fish and guests smell after three days, and I think [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [Madeline:] I think that's probably quite true. I think after three days they've er worn out their welcome. They, they've seen all the sights, and they've eaten the best of the food and er, erm, it's time to go really, before you know they get, they outstay their welcome, and go past their sell-by date. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Nice way of putting it []. Some people never quite know when to go, don't they? [Madeline:] Oh, some people just, you know, I've a, a friend who's erm, who was with someone at college and he er, said he was gonna stay for a week, and you know, months later, he was still there. I mean, so that guest, that is absolute peril. [Douglas:] Yes,an and one never likes, er, the minute they're in the door, to say, when are you actually going? It sounds so discourteous [Madeline:] [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] but of course, er three or four days later, you're very sorry you didn't pose that question the minute they er put their foot on er [Madeline:] Yes [Douglas:] your hall carpet. Erm, there must several categories. In fact, I know there are, because I've had a look at your most amusing, and relevant article. There are certain categories that these guests fall into, aren't there? [Madeline:] Yes, erm, the, the most archetypal one is, is the miser of course, who, who turns up with a stale box of chocolates and an ingratiating smile, and proceeds to eat you out of house and home, and then when you're at the supermarket, disappears mysteriously at the checkout, and returns when you've paid with a, a bumper bag a crisps that he keeps in his bedroom when, in case he gets peckish at night. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [Madeline:] You know, he may take you for a meal after he's stayed a, a fortnight, and it'll, he might lose his wallet, or, take you to the sausage and chips place round the corner, so he, he's a nightmare. And then there's the, the over-amorous couple who er, [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [Madeline:] it's always nice to know your friends are in love, but erm, [Douglas:] Yes. [Madeline:] it's a little bit disconcerting when they forget you're there, and erm [Douglas:] Especially if you've got thin walls. [Madeline:] Yes, so you have to, if, you know, with your weekends, where you know there's a lot of banging of spoons, animated chat, to, to cover up what is so audibly going on upstairs. [Douglas:] I can well remember, I can well remember when our children, when our children were quite young, and er we had such a couple staying with us. And er, without putting too fine a point on it, er there, there were quite a few moans coming from the bedroom, from the lady, and er, my son said, er, er, I don't think she's very well daddy. I think she's, she's ill, don't you think you should go in and see what's happening, I said, no, I, I don't think so, I think, I think her husband will take care of that. [Madeline:] [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] Anyway, the over-amorous couple, yes, they're a bit of an embarrassment, aren't they? Anybody else? [Madeline:] Well erm, children, people with children who don't know how to behave, or, or at least use your house as a sort of running ground, erm, not living in London, er, er, I have lots of guests that come from London, sort of using it as, as much as one would exercise dogs, and, and let their children r run, like round the house, and then er, I'm sort of saying things like, oh you're, you're very, very sensible not to have decorated until after your son's older. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [Madeline:] You know, so that, that's a bit of a nightmare and they erm, sort of never tell their children off, so you know, you're s some ghastly little child can be floating your CDs in the bath [Douglas:] Yes. [Madeline:] or scrawling on your tiles [Douglas:] We're all laughing, but, I mean, it, it, it's absolutely er, enraging, isn't it? If it happens to you, yeah. [Madeline:] Oh, absolutely [Douglas:] And the c couple that, that never, never stop arguing. They, they probably come in a foul mood, and er, they, they keep up that er bickering over the whole of their stay. [Madeline:] That's right, they've probably had a row half way there or something, and it just carries on, you know. [Douglas:] Yes. [Madeline:] And then they try and enlist your support. They get you in individually, and sort of reveal embarrassing personal stories, and there's, I mean it just becomes a battleground, your house for, for the weekend. [Douglas:] Madeline, is there anything that can be done? [Madeline:] I think you have to sort of, lay your ground rules, I mean state your case, quite early on and it, I mean, you know, if, if you're not good first thing in the morning, you know, you could tell someone you need three cups of coffee before you're safe to approach or if erm, there's a lazy slob who sort of lies on the sofa all day, you could throw the dishcloth at him, or... erm, and also, I mean if it, if there are sort of badly behaved pets and, and children, erm, you know, just, just don't invite them, and if that means your guest list is, is somewhat shorter then all to the good. I mean you could always go away on holiday, if you'd like. I mean that's, at this time of year, when [clears throat] it's coming to the time when people coming round with bargain barrels of biscuits [Douglas:] It is difficult, isn't it, not only at Christmas, and, and we suffer from this, probably you do as well, friends from London. Er, we originally, my wife and I, come from Scotland, and when you get people ringing up from er Scotland saying, well we're just passing through en route to Paris, or Amsterdam, or somewhere, can we stay with you for a couple of days, it's very difficult not to say, er, well, I'm busy isn't it really, and you, you've got to accept them really? Yes. [Madeline:] You have to, because, how can you be busy for that entire period of time? It's too hard to think on, you know, on the hop, you know, it's not a, it's impossible. They have to, they have to come. [Douglas:] Yes, yeah. Well, Madeline, thank you very much indeed. There's a lot in this er, article. [Madeline:] Thanks [Douglas:] It's very amusing, and you've explained it amusingly to us, but er, there's a lot of truth, I think in er, what you say and er how can we, er make the best of these unwelcome guests who insist on turning up at the most inopportune times, when we're trying to enjoy ourselves. Anyway, I'm sure you'll have horror stories, of guests who've invited themselves. Guests whom you've had to invite, although you really dread it. Er, perhaps, er, something like that is gonna happen to you in a fortnight's time, this Christmas. I'm sure that over the years, you'll have er, gone through some of the experiences that Madeline and I have been talking about over the last five minutes. I'd love to hear your horror stories please, with guests in your home. Not necessarily at Christmas, any time really. is the number. Five, no it's not, quarter to seven is the time.... And, er after the break, it'll be Anne from Hither Green, getting us off on our section of phone calls.... Most people, I think know by now, certainly regular listeners will know, that at the end of next month, the end of January, this programme, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call, will be coming to you live, from Sydney, Australia, to mark Australia Day. And we're looking for two couples, four people, two couples, to travel with us, and to find out er, how you will be able to travel, and what you have to do when you get there, stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under Competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. I can tell you it's all expenses paid, it's a fabulous trip, and er, we'll tell you how perhaps, you can be on that plane to Sydney with us, later in the programme. Anne from Hither Green. Good morning Anne. [speaker006:] Good morning Douglas, nice to speak to you again. [Douglas:] Thank you. [speaker006:] Erm, you brought back memories you know, when you were talking about unwanted Christmas guests. [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker006:] When we were children, about two days before Christmas, my mother used to face us all defiantly, and say your Aunty May's coming for Christmas, and we all used to scream no, no, not Aunty May please. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Yes, she has nowhere to go, she was like a damp sponge. [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker006:] She used to enter the house, squelching misery behind her [Douglas:] Oh dear! [speaker006:] face us all, and the whole Christmas used to be, we used to tease my brother cos he was the young one, you know, and she'd say, no, no, don't tease the little, oh, no don't say that, and the whole of Christmas, was Aunty May sitting on a sofa, being fed brown ale in never ending glasses, not adding one single thing to the whole of Christmas at all. was not a word she knew. [Douglas:] Did she come and stay with your family every Christmas? [speaker006:] Yes, and every week she'd appear just like the weather. [Douglas:] Oh, she was, she was fairly local was she? [speaker006:] Yes, and in the end it taught me tolerance and love, because I really learned to love her. I loved her, even though she was miserable, because she was kind, [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker006:] underneath that exterior, and it made me realize, that you know, you don't have to like your relatives, I'm afraid, you have to put up with them, and love them. [Douglas:] That's right, you can pick your friends, but you can never pick your relatives unfortunately. Anne, what a lovely story, although it wasn't very lovely, was it, when Aunty May came round for Christmas, and inflicted herself upon the whole family, with her own particular brand of misery? But, er, I wonder how many Aunty Mays there are coming to your house this Christmas? Peggy of Surbiton, good morning. [clears throat] Morning, Douglas. I've got a very funny story. Erm, a few, a very few years ago, I met a, a daughter of a friend on, on a bus, er going into London. I hadn't seen this, this, I call a child, which she was, [clears throat] excuse me, for about erm, twenty five years. Anyhow, she's living on her own in London, she's not married, so my husband said, oh ask her over, perhaps she'd like to come for Christmas. So we go up and pick her up in Kensington, bring her back, she unpacks her bag and plonks herself down, she eats everything that's put in front of her, and second helpings, [LAUGHTER] you can laugh, she never lifted a fork or a plate off the table. No. We waited on her hand and foot Yes and do you know, she had the most enormous Christmas er lunch, about six o'clock she said, could I have a bowl of soup? Oh no. Yes, and Boxing night, she came up with the, er, the same e enormous breakfast, enormous lunch, do you think I might have two lightly boiled eggs wi with er soldiers? Oh, lovely Yes, forty five years of age. We packed her off the, the following day. How did you manage it? Well, my husband just, just, just said that we were going out, we got to go out, and we couldn't, that was it. Oh. So he took her back, to make certain she kn she was there Yes. but, er, it never st we waited on hand, she never even made her bed Yes, well this is, this is one of the er, categories that we've been talking about. I think she would fall into the lazy slob category, Peggy? I called her a slut. Well yes, er Bit, bit, bit more vicious, because, I think it's dreadful. We waited on her Some people are like that, Peggy, some people are like that. They expect to be waited on hand and foot, they've got no consideration for others. Oh, yes, there's a lot of them about you know. Terry from Camberwell, good morning Terry. [Pam:] Morning, Douglas. Er, you know, Ken, Kenneth Clarke is absolutely right to er protest about the hundred billion for a job creation scheme in Europe. He knows that most of that money will come from just three member states, Britain, France and Germany. All the others will get a handout from any funds set up for whatever reason, Douglas. [Douglas:] Mhm. [Pam:] Each British tax payer at the moment, is paying about eight pounds a week for the E E C, and most of those tacp tax payers were dragged by the hair, screaming into Europe, erm, I don't think there's any doubt about that. This government is actually cutting back on everything here just so that the French farmers and the mafia can live in the manner to which they've become accustomed, Douglas. [Douglas:] Terry, thank you very much indeed. Er, we're getting quite a few calls on that subject now, John from Erith, good morning to you John. [Dave:] Morning, Douglas, I think that's totally unjustified, myself, yes, I, I think [Douglas:] You do? Aha, right what is your view of things? [Dave:] Well, erm, we were worrying about erm, the government being weak in representation in Europe over the two pin plugs, [Douglas:] Yes we were, [Dave:] well you can guarantee they're gonna fight tooth and nail over this job creation scheme, to stop it. [Douglas:] Mhm. [Dave:] Why do they do it, Douglas? When it's really important, biggest evil in this country, is the unemployment. About five million, million unemployed, when you take the true figures into account. [Douglas:] Well, do you think it's as high as that? [Dave:] I do, yeah, personally, yeah, well, you know it's a lot higher than it actually is with the erm, anomalies [Douglas:] Yes, yes. [Dave:] that are em, accidentally cut off the erm, figures, [Douglas:] Yes. [Dave:] by this government, but er, this is so important to them, it's gonna actually cost them some money, this government, er, they don't invest in anything that's important, it's the biggest drain on us erm, budget deficit. Or it's the biggest cause of the budget deficit erm, in this country, is unemployment and social security etcetera, and we get a, a brilliant plan for erm, job creation, and what do they do? Black it. [Douglas:] Well, indeed, that is what they're gonna do. John, thank you very much indeed, two contrasting views there. And indeed, at the summit today in Brussels, John Major is going to fight plans by the European Commission for a one hundred billion pound job creation programme across the Community. As I say, contrasting views on that story, and er if you'd like to give me a ring with your view, then it's very, very welcome. We'll take calls on that and indeed any other subject in the news after the seven o'clock news. It's now six minutes to seven.... The time now, on the Breakfast Call, with me Douglas Cameron, is three minutes to seven. Let's move on to the birthdays and the anniversaries. We'll do today, tomorrow, and Sunday.... Those are the birthdays and anniversaries. If you'd a dedication mentioned on the day, and it's er, very important isn't it really? If you er, send one in, to get it mentioned on the day, well we certainly do our best, er, sometimes, er, the er, anniversaries and the birthdays, not very often, are crowded out by er, any news stories that we may have to bring you, became first and foremost this is a news programme, er reflecting the stories of the day, but generally speaking we manage to get a full list of your dedications in. Can you let us have a birthday or an anniversary message in writing please, a week before the actual date, don't forget to tell us who it's for, who it's from, and the date. Commonsense you may think, but it's amazing how many people leave out one or more of those essential details. So we'll do our best to get your dedication in on the day, if you will do the rest. The seven o'clock news coming now, right here. Well, that by now familiar music will tell you that at the end of January, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call will be broadcasting live from Sydney, and in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can join us down under, for the Dougie Down Under Competition, stay tuned for that, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline.... The time now is nine and a half minutes past seven. I want to concentrate, er for the next five minutes or so, on one of the main stories of the morning. As you may have heard in the seven o'clock news, three British hostages are now on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from jail in Baghdad. The release of Paul, Michael, and Simon, follows the mercy mission by former prime minister, Sir Edward Heath. On the line to me now, is our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier. David, a very good morning to you. [Frances:] Good morning, Douglas. [Douglas:] Why at this point in time, has Saddam Hussein decided to release these three men? [Frances:] Let's say first of all that Ted has done jolly well in getting them out, and everyone deserves er, er you know, he deserves a tremendous vote of thanks from everyone. But Saddam's motives are not at all altruistic, as er, everyone, everyone can guess. It's simply that he wants to create a better atmosphere, and show that after all he's a reasonable man, and we shouldn't be too hard on him in these days. And he gets a lot of publicity out of this by er, being photographed with Ted Heath, by announcing that he's showing clemency to people who are convicted by the Iraqi courts, and that really people shouldn't hold too much against him. [Douglas:] Well, he's certainly made a lot of it, didn't he? Milked the occasion for all it was worth. I would have thought, that after Sir Edward's meeting, or Ted, I kno I don't like to call him Ted, I know you know him intimately, David, so you can call him Ted, I'll call him Sir Edward, but after Sir Edward's meeting with Tariq Aziz, surely that was enough, wasn't it? But Saddam had to just play the whole game, and er, he must have got a lot of propaganda out of this, mustn't he? The, the old handshake, with er, Sir Edward? [Frances:] Well, he does, and he doesn't, Douglas. I mean, if we take this as a game, as you rightly describe it, he only takes these people from th in the first place, to have hostages that he can use as bargaining chips later. I mean, these three men, may or may not have strayed across the border, but they certainly did nothing wrong, [Douglas:] Erm [Frances:] and they're just jailed for long periods of time, because he wants to assert, Saddam wants to assert, er his authority and show how erm, tough he is. But really these people, and there're about thirty other nationalities, by the way, being held, he just wants to show how tough he is, and it's useful in the future, as now, when he wants to make a gesture. The publicity is fairly short-lived, of course it has tremendous effect on the British media, and we're all very, very happy for the families of these people [Douglas:] Yes. [Frances:] but it doesn't actually change British policy, or alter the fact that sanctions are going to be maintained against Saddam. But for his part, er, it looks good, er he gets lots of promotion in the erm, Iraqi press, which he controls anyway, and Iraqi television, and he comes across as a kind of, er, father of the people, who can on one hand show great severity with executions and so forth, on the other hand, dispense er justice and human feelings, and show that he really loves people in general. [Douglas:] But David, he's not proving a very good father is he, because er, I'm sure many, many people will have seen pictures on television on Wednesday night, of how these sanctions are really hurting the Iraqi people. The ordinary people in the street. [Frances:] Yes, and that is Saddam's dilemma, I mean,yo the point about him is this, one mustn't think of him as being a rational er politician who does sensible things, for sensible reasons. That is the wrong way to look at Saddam. He's a very, very emotional, unstable dictator, who's just been determined somehow to exploit his position geographically, in the Middle East, to try and emerge as a sort of mini superpower, and to that end, he's done a lot of terrible things, of which the invasion of Kuwait was really only one. But in the course of that, he's so angered the international community that sanctions as we know, economic sanctions have been levelled against Iraq, and they have bit, and they have hurt the Iraqi people, but in general, Saddam is not responsive to that kind of pressure. After all, even if his people as a whole are suffering privations and losses, and can't buy all the things they want, it doesn't affect him and his ruling clique. He has the perfectly healthy, happy life. Have you seen pictures of him? [Douglas:] Yes. [Frances:] See how sleek he looks, and how dark and well and such,... yes, he does, he does [Douglas:] He looks very healthy, doesn't he, very, very fit?... Erm [Frances:] er, but there is a point at which, you know, he's always trying to evade sanctions, and usually, and it's a genuine case, he asks that er, essential supplies, like medicines and such, should be allowed through, and er, in the general, the United Nations have responded by saying, Okay, we'll give you that, but you've still got to observe the rules of the international law, which I'm afraid, again and again, he flouts. So, there's no real sign on his part, of a change of heart. [Douglas:] No, I mean, there's nothing to stop him arresting more British people, or er, any nationality, come to that, and saying well, they did stray into our territory, I'm sorry about this, but er, we can't have that sort of thing, you'll have to er, come and see if I want to release them in a few months. Nothing to stop him er, doing the whole all over again, is there? [Frances:] Well, he's doing it now, as I say, there're about thirty other nationalities held in Iraqi prisons. But this isn't the worst of Saddam, I mean, this is er, a human tragedy for all the families involved and it concerns individual lives, and for that we're always very upset. But er, he does much, much worse things to his own people, and in particular, the people in the south, called the Marsh Arabs, or, or the Shea Arabs. He's continually er, persecuting them, and there's many, many indications that he uses er, poisoned gas, or chemical weapons, and er lays waste their whole villages, and he's seeking to do this because he wants to dominate his own country, and not allow any minorities a chance to look after themselves, and the same applies of course to the Kurds in the north, whom we have a direct responsibility, the international community, to protect. Now this action against whole groups of people is so awful Douglas [Douglas:] Erm [Frances:] that I fear, that sooner or later, we'll probably have to go to war with Saddam again [Douglas:] You, you, do you really feel that? [Frances:] I do feel it. I'll tell you why. I mean, there are many, many cases of injustice around the world and, the West, the British government, can't be responsible for all of them, but there's, there's one particular case of Iraq, where we've already gone to war, to, in the cause of democracy and freedom, and I don't believe that when Saddam offends again as he does day by day, we can turn a blind eye. We can turn a blind eye to some of it, but the point is always reached when he goes too far, and intervention is required, usually only in the form of American attacks by aircraft on his offences in the em, areas where he's not supposed to penetrate. [Douglas:] Yes, would it be a possibility, perhaps, that Sir Edward Heath, might try to get the other European hostages out? His success rate with er, British hostages is outstanding isn't it? [Frances:] Well Ted is a very, er, experienced operator. He's always had his heart in, in diplomacy and he's got the kind of authority you need for this. That is, he's an ex-prime minister, who can face er, Saddam across the table, you know, on equal terms. At the same time he has no political authority, er, representing as it were the British government, he's just an individual of stature, and he's got the time and the energy to do it. I don't think that he could look after other countries, although the same sort of precedent could no doubt apply for example, the former French prime minister, there's probably quite a few of them around, could be found to go to [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Yes [Frances:] Iraq, and do the same kind of negotiation. The danger is that er, Saddam exploits this er, more and more, and seeks to try and get sanctions overturned. Well, that won't happen. But I think that from, er, Sir Edward's point of view, he has done jolly well, and er, the families have already expressed their great gratitude to him. [Douglas:] Well if I may, er, coin one of your phrases, well done Ted. Thank you David, very much indeed. David Spannier, our diplomatic correspondent, giving us an expert's eye view of the whys and wherefores of the release of the three British hostages, who happily will be home very, very shortly. Seventeen minutes past seven.... I thought for a minute, he said down to Mr Blobby didn't you? [Judy:] Well, he keeps calling me Mr Robbie, because, for some reason, he thinks I resemble this silly character. [Douglas:] Yes... I can't understand why. [Judy:] [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] You are, you are, perhaps you are, you, you're a little, two or three pounds over your fighting weight for a man of your height, but still, [Judy:] [LAUGHTER] I know, I should be eight foot six, but, I'm working on it [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] We had enough of Blobby yesterday, without any mention of him on the programme again. Right, it's twenty minutes past seven.... [music of waltzing matilda playing] We can't afford modern technology now, we've got one of these old wind-up gramophones. [LAUGHTER] Right, nevertheless, not withstanding, etcetera. In five minutes, it'll be the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. I'm sure most people know by know, that er this show will be coming to you live from Sydney, Australia, for a whole week to mark Australia Day at the end of January, and er the interesting thing from your point of view, is that we are looking for two couples, can be a husband and wife, er mother and daughter, father and son, any combination really, just a couple of friends. We're looking for two couples to come to Australia with us and to act as roving reporters. What you do, is er, travel around the country, to selected spots, phone into me, on the programme live, and tell me what you've been doing, what you've been seeing. All expenses paid, I need hardly add, and of course, this will mean that should you er, get through to the final, you will need to do an audition, live on air, in the day or two before Christmas. More of that later, you must also have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. Okay. So in five minutes, I'll ask you a question, and that could result in you're going next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Seven twenty two. Leslie of Finsbury. Good morning Leslie. [Humphrey:] Er, Good morning, Douglas. Em, much earlier you was on about this erm, erm, television licences, er, be it,an another extra twenty pound being added to any, another set over the top of what you've got. [Douglas:] Yes I just want to explain very quickly for people who don't know what we're talking about, Leslie, because a lot of people join us by the minute, er, MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, have said, they think it's a very good idea, that if you have more than one telly, you should pay twenty pounds for the second one, and who knows, twenty pounds for the third, and twenty pounds extra for the fourth. What do you feel? [Humphrey:] Well, this is what I'm, what I'm on about, this proposal. I, I assume it's just a proposal at the moment? But,i is it [Douglas:] Yes, it is [Humphrey:] gonna a be across the board? Or er, just affecting households or is there a special dispensation for hotels, hospitals, commercials, er, commercial establishments, Crown property, Buckingham Palace, and any of the Royal homes, go right through, you can go right through the card? [Douglas:] Well, I think the idea is, that certainly large hotels could afford to pay a bigger collective bill than they're paying at the moment. And er, er a lot of people I think, would agree with that. Wouldn't you? [Humphrey:] Well, they appear to have, er, er I mean they have televisions in every room, and, and, and they, and they, and they put their prices up accordingly, er en suite, and all this business, but er with the television, [Douglas:] Erm [Humphrey:] I mean, they're, they're, actually, they're creaming it off at the moment. [Douglas:] Yeah, I mean, have you got more than one telly? [Humphrey:] Sorry? [Douglas:] Have you got more than one? [Humphrey:] No, I live on my own, I got, I've got one little television in my own sort of bedsitter. [Douglas:] So, er, would you think it's a good idea maybe to er, to, to charge people twenty pounds extra for each telly? [Humphrey:] Well, er, it's all according to whether they can afford it in the first instance, secondly, is it gonna be across the board? [Douglas:] Yes. [Humphrey:] I mean, you can't just hammer households, and leave them, I mean, even, even, even like er ju ju the judiciary, the courts, they've all got televisions in their pl... I mean surely, and that's Crown property, by the way. I understand that they don't pay any television licences at all. [Douglas:] Okay Leslie, thank you, a lot of calls coming through on this one. Inge, from Wembley. Good morning Inge. [David:] Morning, Dougie. Er, first of all, good luck for next week [Douglas:] Oh, thank you. [David:] and er, do you know, I've got so many things to say, erm, first of all to do with er, erm, guests at Christmas. You know, one must remember there are so many lonely people, and Christmas is the worst time of the year. [Douglas:] Yes. [David:] The other thing is television licence. Now, I must say that I see there is a point of charging for every television set, erm, I don't have any er, er objection to that, but one rider, that senior citizens should be helped. [Douglas:] Yes, I think this is probably the idea behind the thinking, really. That those who are not really able to pay, who are genuinely hit very hard by the current eighty three pounds, isn't it for a colour television licence, I think? Er, they would be helped, I think, by this and er, I think if that were to be the case, then I'd be wholeheartedly behind it. [David:] Yes, I think that, I think that would be fair, but er for instance, hotels, establishments, they should of course, pay much more. [Douglas:] Inge, thank you very much indeed. A lot of calls coming through on this. We'll take as many as we can er, during the programme. It's now seven twenty six. [music of waltzing matilda playing] Well here go, with the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Two couples must win the all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the Breakfast Call comes live from Sydney, at the end of January. Now, we've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, so you won't miss out. But now, here's the final question [recording ends]

[Douglas:] tell them that, at the end of next month, for a week, to mark Australia Day, this programme will be coming to you live from Sydney. Now, we're looking for two couples to accompany us down under, to find out how you can perhaps qualify, stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Ten to eight is the time, Anna from Chigwell is on the line to me. Anna, good morning. [speaker002:] Good morning, Doug, I'm a first time caller. [Douglas:] Welcome, what would you like to talk about? [speaker002:] Well, I'd just like to say, about the lady who kept her hat on in the house all the time, and if someone called that she didn't like, she would say I'm just going out. If someone called that she liked, she'd say, I've just come in. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] You've alre you're, you're, you're erm, er referring to the story that we were discussing [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [Douglas:] earlier, we've had a lot of calls on this on er, the best way to deal with house guests who inflict themselves on you over Christmas, have you ever had any horror stories yourself? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I guess... well not really, I erm, I try to make people welcome, and they usually let me know if they're coming and then I'm prepared. [Douglas:] Well, that's true, but there are some people whom you'd rather not have in your house, that you really can't do much to avoid coming, can you really? [speaker002:] , well you can say you're going away can't you? [Douglas:] I suppose you can really. [speaker002:] I mean there're always excuses these days. People do go away for Christmas. [Douglas:] Yes, that's, it's a lovely, er, lovely story, Anna, er had a hat on and if she didn't want to see anybody, she was just going out [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []. [Douglas:] and if she did, she was just coming in. That's lovely well, yes [speaker002:] Well, listen, can I say something else? [Douglas:] Please do. [speaker002:] About the television licence [Douglas:] That's right, this er, this proposal by the Commons' Heritage Committee, that if you actually want another telly in your house, you have to pay twenty quid extra. [speaker002:] well, I have one, and I think that's expensive enough, but regarding the licence extra money, I think that we shouldn't have to pay any television licence at all with some of the programmes that we're getting on, they're all repeated [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Well, er, Anna, and it is er, er a complaint that is er, often, er put up on this programme when we discuss television, they're repeated, and I do agree. There are an awful lot of repeats, especially through the summer, on the B B C especially. But, you know, a lot of those repeats get huge audiences, and th they must have repeated Dad's Army, and 'Ello, 'Ello about fourteen hundred times, but they still get enormous ratings, those programmes. Erm, I suppose it's the sort of humour that er, one looks at again and again, and still laughs. I know it is with me, er, with Dad's Army, so er, if they're getting huge ratings with those repeats, well, they're obviously gonna put them on aren't they? David from Stratford, good morning. [speaker003:] Good morning, Douglas. Erm, this is story a that goes back about twenty, twenty one years ago. Er, I, I was only about twelve, thirteen at the time. Erm, we had a erm, I had an aunt and uncle, they lived in Southend, and they used to like to come up and perform em, he had a violin and she used to play the piano, and my erm, father didn't really care for the music, but they liked sort of opera and stuff like that [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] so we saw them, er saw them actually because we live in a flat, and we saw them coming from the station, er one, one Saturday morning [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker003:] so, we decided to pretend we weren't in. Now, at the time we had my grandmother living with us, so we had to tell her shut up, erm, and when they rang, er on the door, she, she wasn't to sort of, call out and you know, to tell us that the door was ringing, [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker003:] so, erm, they rang and they rang, and they rang for a good twenty to twenty five minutes and we just erm, we, we all huddled together in the living room, and erm, anyway about half an hour went past, and then they finally went, we saw them, we live in a flat, and we saw them from the window, we saw them going back to the station you see. So, my dad says oh, thank goodness for that, anyway, erm, we, we sort of relaxed after that. About two, three hours later, after lunch, there was another ring on the doorbell, I went to answer it, and of course you can guess. There they were, they, they'd gone for a walk round London, and er come back. They'd come all the way from er, Southend, as I said,, and erm, [Douglas:] Oh. [speaker003:] I didn't know what to say, and they said, well where were you, well er, I said we were all standing on the balcony and we, we didn't hear you, erm, it was ab I mean looking back now, it's funny, but it was ludicrous at the time. [Douglas:] Well indeed, and er, having got in, I suppose they proceeded to entertain your father with the music he didn't particularly want to hear in the first place? That's lovely. I feel a bit sorry for them, having come all the way from Southend, to your place, and er, being left ringing the doorbell for half an hour. I suppose a lot of people would say he got his just desserts, they did in that family, because they all came back for, three hours later, and er, gained entry. Doris from Ilford, good morning to you. [speaker004:] Oh, hello Doug, yeah I wonder why you're so jolly in the morning. I mean, when I get up in the morning, it takes me four hours before I come to, you're always so jolly. [Douglas:] Well, I think you know, I'm a naturally optimistic sort of person, and I, I'm not er, sort of blowing my own trumpet here, I, I, I erm, look on life with a great deal of optimism, er touch wood, I've been fairly lucky in my life. I've got a job that I love doing, and er, I also take the view that if I came and did this programme and moaned away at everybody, and er, moaned away about everything, nobody would ring me up, and nobody would listen. So, you know, I, I don't want to be too jolly, because er, er that, that, that's er, as bad as being morbid, isn't it and miserable, but I try and strike er, a happy balance. [speaker004:] Okay, can I talk to you about the televisions? [Douglas:] Yeah [speaker004:] Well, I've got one in my bedroom in c cos, when I was in, ill, you know, erm, it's er, nice to, but I've got one downstairs, that's two, that's two. Now, for a long time, because my children have grown up, and I don't see them being, being young men, when the young men get married, you, mothers don't see them, so I'm on my own, and it's, erm, I can't rely on that for company at all. L B C is on day and all night but [Douglas:] Wonderful. [speaker004:] the thing is, erm, I don't think that the, the standard is good enough to warrant paying eighty two pounds for a licence. [Douglas:] Oh, so far from paying any extra for a another television set, you are not happy at paying what we're paying at the moment? [speaker004:] I'm going a step further, Doug. And I've got some friends, who are very affluent, I'm not affluent at all. [Douglas:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Er, you go in their home, it's black and white, because they refuse, they don't think it warrants the eighty two pound licence, and I'm gonna get, er black and white, and er, that's what I'm gonna do. [Douglas:] Okay Doris, well, far from paying another twenty quid for her extra television set, Doris is very annoyed she's got to pay eighty three quid for a colour licence, and she's gonna now go to black and white. I forget what black and white is, it's considerably cheaper, isn't it really? But, erm, a lot a people are now saying that the quality of er, the programmes on the telly isn't very good. Er, if you want to er, develop that part of the argument, then by all means, let's do so, after the eight o'clock news. It's now three minutes to.... Right, exactly sixty seconds to go, then I'll bring you the eight o'clock news, then after that, we'll continue our conversation on the main topics of the morning, according to you. Families with more than one telly, could soon be paying twenty pounds extra for their licence. It's to lessen the burden on hard-up viewers, but most of you this morning, feel that to pay the existing licence fee is far too much, so I'd like to hear more views on that please, and also I'd like to hear from Spurs fans especially, and football fans in general, your memories, your tributes to the late, great Danny Blanchflower. Right the eight o'clock news coming up, on this radio station.... [music of waltzing matilda playing] Right, I'm sure that er, many people will know by now, but I'm gonna say it anyway... that at the end of January, we will be on the Breakfast Call, broadcasting to you live from Sydney, to celebrate Australia Day. Now here's the interesting bit, in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can win the chance to travel with me on an all expenses paid trip. Stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. The time now is nine and a half minutes past eight. If you've just joined us for the eight o'clock news, as many people do, welcome. We're discussing this morning, and I'll run briefly through the subjects that we have been discussing this morning for the er, new listeners. Families with two tellies could soon be paying twenty pounds extra for their licences, to lessen the burden on hard-up viewers. That is the proposal from MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, do you think it's fair? That if you have a second telly in the house, you should pay twenty pounds extra in licence money for it. And it may be, that if you have three tellies in the house, you'll have to pay forty pounds extra. I wonder if that is fair, even if it is going to ease the burden on hard-up viewers? A lot of people are saying this morning, that er, the existing licence fee of eighty three quid is far too high, given that we er get repeats from the B B C for most of the summer. Well, a lot of er talkers there, and er, if you'd like to give me a ring, it's. We've been discussing the release of the three British hostages. Saddam Hussein has made the most of it, hasn't he really? Getting himself photographed shaking the hands of our mediator, and negotiator, Sir Edward Heath. I wonder if that erm, really did revile you seeing a leading British politician shaking Saddam's hand? Do you feel a deal has been done there? And, er if indeed a deal has been done, is it worth it, to get those three British people out?. We've been discussing guests coming to stay at your place over Christmas. And there's a fascinating article in this, the current edition, the January edition it is now, because they go so far in advance, of She magazine, which says that er, it's a desperate plight sometimes, when you have people coming for Christmas who fall into several categories like lazy slobs, who do absolutely nothing, and misers, who turn up with a stale box of chocolates, and never take you out for a meal in return for your hospitality, and the amorous couples who er, embarrass you by er, er, noisily retiring to their bedroom, if I may put it that way, and then the guests who turn up in mid-row, and bicker systematically over the whole of the festive period. So, how do you get rid of or avoid coming, of the unwanted guest? And I'd like to hear your tribute, perhaps your memory of the great Danny Blanchflower, who so sadly left us yesterday. One of the great footballers of er, his age, or perhaps any other age, and it's sad isn't it, that in the same year, we've lost two, Bobby Moore and then Danny. There's also another story, I'd like to er, throw into the conversation, if I may? The residents of Tunbridge Wells in Kent, are,th the dismay, of British Telecom at the moment, because, about thirty five percent of B T's sixty thousand customers in Tunbridge Wells, are not in the book. Well that may surprise you. Keeping out of the book, in fact, has become increasingly popular, with the national average of twenty five percent, being one of the highest in the world. In London, believe it or not, B T tell us, that forty three percent of their customers are not listed, while in south west Essex, the average is forty percent, and in west Middlesex and north west Kent it's thirty five percent. Now, er, I don't know er why you might want to be unlisted, ex-directory, not in the book. If you are, then give me a ring and tell me why. Melvin from Hendon. Good morning Melvin. Good morning, Douglas. I'd like to pay my tribute to Danny Blanchflower. Yes? Er, he in my view, was a rare spirit. A spirit, that it seems to me, has virtually gone from em, certainly English football nowadays, and I think, in many ways, English sport in general. He was not only a fine footballer, he was also a gentleman to the Nth degree, and he told the story, I remember, he started his erm, professional football career in this country, with Barnsley, and he was transferred from Barnsley to Aston Villa, and at the time there was some haggling over the fee, and er, he was taken by the chairman of Barnsley, to meet the chairman of Aston Villa in the chairman's Rolls Royce. They went down to Birmingham, and while the er, two chairmen negotiated in the dining room, over a, an extremely affluent lunch, Danny Blanchflower was em, pushed into the kitchen to sit with the servants, if you like. That was the way of things in those days. Yes it was, yes. He was erm, unusually for that time, indeed, unusually for now, a university graduate. He graduated from St Andrew's University, and to, in many ways, he was infinitely better educated and more intelligent than those who ran football around him, but nevertheless, erm, he never showed that, in erm, a sense of being superior. Never, he was a remarkable footballer. He gave Tottenham Hotspur the title, I think, of the greatest club side ever in erm, British football, and they won erm, the double as everyone knows, in nineteen sixty one, the first English team to have won it this century. He led them to the er, first British title for a European trophy, and erm, eventually er, he also was a member of the Northern Ireland team that actually reached the quarter-finals in the nineteen fifty eight World Cup. And Northern Ireland's a very small country against all of the others. Yes. I d I know that, there's that phrase you know, we will never see his like again, I think we probably will, but it will be a very long time, and I cannot tell you the infinite feeling of sadness erm, that I felt when I heard of his passing. It seemed to me, an age had gone. Melvin, thank you very much indeed for your reminiscences. Jeff of Streatham. Good morning. [Pam:] Good morning, Douglas. First of all, all the best next week. [Douglas:] Oh, thank you. [Pam:] Er, secondly, the hostages. [Douglas:] Yes? [Pam:] You know, the ones being released today. [Douglas:] Mhm. [Pam:] Erm, I er, like everybody else, are very glad to see they're gonna get their release, but do you know Dougie, erm, I for the life of me, cannot understand, and we don't know the full circumstances, how these people wander into a country like Iraq, which has a terrible reputation, and they don't like us very much, you know, how does this happen? Wouldn't you stay about five mil at least five miles away from the place if you were, if, if you were, if you er, wandering out there [Douglas:] I certainly would Jeff, I couldn't agree more [Pam:] I mean I can't understand, yes... yes [Douglas:] I'd stay about five hundred miles away from the border if I was them... yes [Pam:] That's right, yes, me too. Erm, you know, this is what I can't understand, we haven't heard this. [Douglas:] An interesting point. Thank you for raising it, and er, we might get some er comeback on that one. Er, it's all very well saying er, these people were apprehended, what a bit of bad luck, but what in God's name were they doing, straying around the border of a country like Iraq? Cos I say, I'd steer well clear of that place. There are many other places I'd like to visit, Sydney is one of them. I'll be telling you more about that in mo.... [music of waltzing matilda playing] Do you know, I'm getting quite attached to that tune. In five minutes it'll be the Dougie Down Under Competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. We'll be bringing the show to you live from Sydney, Australia, at the end of January, to mark Australia Day, and we're looking for two couples, they can be husband and wife, mother and daughter, father and son, any combination you like, even a couple of friends, we're looking for two couples to come to Australia with the show, and to act as roving reporters. We want you to travel round the country at our expense, all expenses paid, needless to say, and we want you to tell us, by phone, live on the programme, in Sydney, what you're seeing and what you're doing. Sounds an exciting trip, really fabulous trip, and it will mean of course, seeing you will be li live on air, that we have to give you a little audition, so the finalists, have to be prepared to do an audition with me, live on air, just before Christmas. Okay. You must also, of course, have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. Okay. So I'll ask you a question in about er, three or four minutes' time, which could result in you're going out next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Beverley of Hampstead. [speaker006:] Hello. [Douglas:] Good morning. [speaker006:] Good morning. [Douglas:] What would you like to talk about? [speaker006:] Well, it's about why I've been ex-directory for the last, er, twenty years. [Douglas:] Oh, right, why then? [speaker006:] Well [clears throat] because I'm a single parent, [Douglas:] Mhm. [speaker006:] a single mum,an you know, started off with two small babies, living very, very fast, and er, it's sort of safer. I think, you know, a woman living alone, [Douglas:] Mhm. [speaker006:] in this day and age, erm, is sort of erm, not a good thing, to sort of, advertise your name in a phone directory. [Douglas:] Mhm, and you don't find that that gives you any difficulty at all, er with people who genuinely want to find your number? [speaker006:] Er, well, erm, they could sort of do it, erm, I mean, when I leave er, a place that, house that I used to live in, I leave a forwarding address but no, I make sure, with the people that erm, take over the house, but they don't actually give out my phone number. [Douglas:] Mm. [speaker006:] But they can, if they're serious, they can do it by writing, you know. [Douglas:] Mhm, so you're ex-directory, Beverley, and you've found that it's er, a great benefit as a single mum? [speaker006:] For security reasons, yes. [Douglas:] Beverley, thank you for your call. Larry from Chalk Farm. Good morning Larry. [speaker007:] Hello Doug, how are you? [Douglas:] I'm very well, and I know, er, that it's your birthday today, and said [speaker007:] No. [Douglas:] That's right isn't it, are we right? [speaker007:] No, you're not. My birthday is February the tenth. [Douglas:] Oh. [speaker007:] And in fact you're probably going to be invited because everybody seems to want to give me an eightieth birthday party. [Douglas:] An eightieth birthday party? Is it, are you eighty in February? [speaker007:] Yes, February the tenth. [Douglas:] Oh right, I thought [speaker007:] Now th [Douglas:] it was December the tenth. We got er, the wrong dates, we've got you down in our list as December the tenth [speaker007:] that's very odd... no, I'm going to give you a list of parties, you can choose your party. I would, if I were you, I'd take the one in George studio. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Alright, that's, you're on then, in February []. Right, okay, well a happy birthday when it comes, and er, welcome to the show. [speaker007:] Now, the reason I called was, that I have always been out of the phone directory ever since my name got well known in showbiz. You get [Douglas:] Sure. [speaker007:] an awful lot of pressure if your name is in it, but I got a special pleasure when I organized the reading from Salman Rushdie's book. [Douglas:] Oh yes, well I suppose it would be [speaker007:] I organized that at Conway Hall now, in most reference books my agent's name is listed, and my agent got a call saying the minute I began to read from that book I would die. [Douglas:] Oh. [speaker007:] Well, my agent got terrified, and she closed up her office that day, and they all went home. [Douglas:] You're still here. [speaker007:] I'm still here. They, they, they did get me, and I don't know how they got my number. They called me, and they said again, if I read the book I would be killed. And I said, look why don't you meet me in front of Conway Hall and kill me then, it would save so much time. [Douglas:] Larry of course, with er,w w being a famous personality as you are, I mean er, if you were in the book, it would be awful wouldn't it, cos people would just have to, to er look up Adler, L and they [speaker007:] Yes. [Douglas:] they'd get you wouldn't they, really? [speaker007:] Well, you, you see you get of every kind of, of a charity application, begging letters and so forth and it sounds cruel rather [Douglas:] Yes, I can understand that. [speaker007:] to say that you don't want to read all those letters. You cannot get interested in so many things. [Douglas:] Larry thank you very much indeed, and erm, well have an extra birthday on us. Happy birthday for December the tenth as well. Eight twenty five. [music of waltzing matilda playing] Right time for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Two couples must win an all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the show comes live from Sydney at the end of January. Hope I'm back for Larry's party. We've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, but now here is the final question. I think it's the most difficult actually that we've er, brought you this week. What is a baby kangaroo called? What's a baby kangaroo called? Now as soon as you have the five answers, and if you haven't heard the other four questions, then there will be a chance, as I said, to hear them again next week, when you've got the five answers, I'd like you to send me them on a Christmas card please, this is very, very important... send them on a Christmas card please, to the following address.. Answers on a Christmas card, to and the Christmas cards please, with your answers, to be in by first post, next Friday, the seventeenth. Then, we'll keep you posted as to what happens next. Eight twenty seven.... Right, the search is on for the person in the team who told me that Larry Adler's birthday was today, and not February the tenth. Anyway, er that apart, for your views on the news. The news coming up.... [Pam:] [sports report] and when I talked to Derek Thompson an hour ago, he's been in good form has Tommo. He's er, three winners out of four days, and a second, and er, he's going for a couple at Cheltenham today, in the twelve thirty five, number four, Book of Music, and in the two fifty five, number two, Flashing Steel. Twelve thirty five, Cheltenham, number four, Book of Music, two fifty five, number two, Flashing Steel. [Douglas:] Pam, most of the morning papers of course, have had er, glowing tributes, quite rightly so, to Danny Blanchflower, we've had a lot of people on this morning saying that we'll never see his like again. Er, er, it's dreadful isn't it, that we've lost two of the outstanding footballers of this or any other age in one year. Bobby Moore and now Danny? Mm. [Pam:] Bobby Moore, yes, and of course, er, you know, it, it has been a, a very sad year, you know if you couple it together with, with Arthur Ashe, the Wimbledon champion and [Douglas:] Of course, mm. [Pam:] of course, erm, James Hunt, but er, yes, it's rather sad as well that, you know, the last few years of erm, Danny's life were, were, were, he was so crippled with Alzheimer's and, and really not er, er shade of the sort of happy, er person, that, that he had been. But I think that's how we will remember him of course, when, when, you know, the sadness er passes away. [Douglas:] Well, one of the great gentlemen of football, wasn't he? Now maybe there's no place for gentlemen in football now, I don't know, but er [Pam:] Absolutely... well it does seem, it does seem a, a football of a, of another era certainly, but erm, I mean, I think he brought a breath of fresh air into football at the time. I mean even, even myself as a young girl, I'm not, I'm not th you know, that, that erm, that young yet, but I can remember him the er, you know, streak of er, lightning across the old black and white screen. But erm, [Douglas:] Mm, yes. [Pam:] indeed, he, he's been revered as an intellectual player, erm, he, a thinking player, a shining example, and of course, that, that shows up in, in statistics when you read about what he's achieved, and you think, you know, fifty six caps for Northern Ireland. [Douglas:] Mm. [Pam:] He got Northern Ireland into the quarter-finals of the World Cup in fifty eight, and again at club level. Cup double, cup and league double in sixty one, F A Cup the following year, and erm, the first British club, Spurs in nineteen sixty three, to win er, to win the European Trophy, the Cup Winner's Cup, a five one er, victory against Athletic Madrid, I mean, that is tremendous, that all speaks for himself, and, and I gather he's a very great rac raconteur, and a much, much loved er man, sadly missed [Douglas:] Mhm, mm... oh yes indeed, yes, indeed, indeed, a great after dinner speaker too, tremendous er, tremendous Irish wit. Well, he graced Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, of course, well placed for the World Cup draw, aren't they? [Pam:] Yes, quite interesting because er, they've been named er, in group two er, of the seedings, which have been er, released today. The draw will er, be er, a glitzy affair in Las Vegas, with er various Hollywood stars, and rock stars, next week Elton John and Rod Stewart will be turning out, and Julio [Douglas:] Mhm, I can imagine... well they know a bit about... they know, oh, the, well, Julio of course used to keep goal didn't he? For er, a club side in Spain wasn't it? [Pam:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, I can't imagine it, and again of course Rod Steward, and Elton John, we all know, how er, well connected they are, er with the game, absolutely, so [Douglas:] And they're very good footballers, or they were, mm. [Pam:] there's gonna, so we'll need quite er, quite a turn up there, but erm, Republic of Ireland are seeded er, in group two, and in fact above Holland who are in group three, and Norway, in group four. If you think they were, they were two who did better than England. [Douglas:] Sure. [Pam:] But I mean, poor old England, erm, it's R I P I'm afraid. [Douglas:] Yes, poor [Pam:] Er, group one seedings, just to let you know, United States who're in that seeding group as hosts anyway, Germany as the holders, and then former winners, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, and Belgium and it's all, all based on their, their results of the last three competitions. So. [Douglas:] Right, Rugby Union, more concern about er rough play, Bath accused of foul play. [Pam:] Yes. [Douglas:] Getting a bit much, isn't it? [Pam:] It is a bit much when you think, you know, hot on the heels of Will Carling's erm, you know, accusations about the All Blacks, and, and what they're er, er, alleged to have got up to on their tour of England and Scotland. Er, now, erm, Harlequins have complained to Bath, there've been allegations er, during last weekend's er Courage League match, which Bath won incidentally, of gouging and biting, er and Bath officials now have agreed that they will look at a video recording and take appropriate action, in quotes, if anything erm, needs to be done. I mean Harlequins actually, erm, alleged that it wasn't just an, an indiscriminate boot or a punch, this was quite er, yeah [Douglas:] Calculated stuff, yeah and er, talking of fracas, a lucky escape for Ayrton Senna, in his disciplinary hearing in Paris. [Pam:] Yes, he, he's erm, escaped with a two race suspended ban, this was for erm, his fist meeting the face of er, Irish driver Eddie. Er, at er so [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Nice way of putting it. [Pam:] This was er, the, the er, Japanese Grand Prix in October. Erm, he didn't actually admit at the hearing that he had hit, erm, but erm, the disciplinary panel agreed that he had perhaps been provoked er rather more than er, had been necessary. So the, the upshot of it all, is he's banned for two races, but this is a susp suspended erm, ban over two months, er er, over six months rather, so it means that if he's a good boy over the next six months he won't miss any races at all, so he has had a lucky escape. [Douglas:] He has, he has. [Pam:] Well known for his temper. [Douglas:] Yes, indeed so I believe. Pam thank you very much indeed. Er, Pam Dixon er,step stepping in for er, Dominic, is the er, bearded man back on Monday? [Pam:] No, I, I gather he has taken a long weekend, I don't know where he's whisked himself off to, but I'm afraid I won't be here, er next week, I don't know, quite know who will be, but er, Dominic's taking er, a well needed rest. [Douglas:] Right, yes, I might say that, right, Pam, thanks very much indeed, it's twenty minutes to nine.... Seventeen minutes to nine. Gerald has rung me from East Sheen. Good morning Gerald. [speaker008:] Good morning Mr Cameron, and er, many happy birthday returns for er, Larry Adler. [Douglas:] Yes in February. [speaker008:] No doubt he will, er,re reciprocate, because it's mine on Monday. [Douglas:] Oh, is it? [speaker008:] Twenty s I'm not sure whether it's twenty six or twenty seven. No comment please. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Never mind, happy returns, many happy returns er, for Monday. [speaker008:] Anyway,th thank you very much, and, and, I hope you do well when you go into hospital on Monday. [Douglas:] Oh thanks, nothing, nothing to, very minor thing, on Monday. [speaker008:] Well it is it's still, it always causes some concern though, for those around you. Anyway, it er, this business of erm, twenty pound increase on the T V. [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker008:] Quite, my goodness me, we er, surely the people must be sick and tired of this lot. All they seem to do is target the ones at the hospitals, the police, the fire brigade, everything. Even the heating, and now they're targeting invalidity benefit... yes... mm [Douglas:] Well, when you say this lot, actually, it, it's not er, actually a government body, this, in fact er, the Commons' Heritage Committee, er these are the people who are announcing this price rise, in the proposals yesterday, they're, they're actually led by Gerald Kaufman, who's never been a Conservative in his life. [speaker008:] I know he hasn't, I know he hasn't. But even so, the government are still the people in charge, and they're the people who should er, make a final decision or not, er, er, isn't it? I mean, it's, it's t [Douglas:] Oh they will yes, indeed er, it will be up to the government. [speaker008:] I mean, I mean they are, they're, they really are you know, we're so complacent in this country, Mr Cameron, I, I don't know, do you know, they're just hitting us in every direction, my goodness me, you, you know, you'll be afraid to breathe without they'll want to target that. [Douglas:] Okay Gerald, thank you very much indeed. Gerald obviously feeling er, very, very bad about er, this scheme to make us all pay twenty pounds extra, if we have a second T V set in the house. It's a proposal, nothing more than that at the moment, Derek from Barnet, good morning. [speaker009:] Mr. Cameron, I'd like to pay tri tribute to Danny Blanchflower [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker009:] er, because I saw him play actually in the nineteen sixty two final against Burnley. [Douglas:] Oh yes. [speaker009:] And, er, and my father actually looked up the year before and found he knew the S H M, an old school chum, and he sent us a ticket. So I've only been the once, [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker009:] and he really was a marvellous player. Er, he never any, you know against him, and his skill and his performance was absolutely immaculate. [Douglas:] I wonder how he would have done in today's game, do you think there would have been room for him today? [speaker009:] Yes, absolutely... I think so Mr Cameron. You see, he's got such skill, his footwork, and he's always in the right position, and he really was, I can't pay a higher tribute. It's very sad, the news, of course. [Douglas:] Mind you, he'd of probably been hacked down, wouldn't he today, before, that's the problem nowadays? [speaker009:] Er, well, that's the point... what a marvellous draw Barnet's got Mr Cameron, against Chelsea in the Cup? [Douglas:] Oh yes, that's right, of course, you're a great Barnet supporter just an ex [speaker009:] Absolutely, I went to see at, we had to trouble at, not of our supporters [Douglas:] Well the way Chelsea are playing at the moment, you've got a very good chance of winning. [speaker009:] Well, we've got this runner you see, younger brother Carl, he does a lovely job at and of, there's a bit of spice added to, to it. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Derek thank you very much indeed for your call. [speaker009:] Thank you Mr. Cameron, bye-bye [Douglas:] We must move on, because we've got to have a commercial break, and then we want to check on the traffic. It's fourteen minutes to nine.... Countdown to the stars, here he is, Mr Murray. Good morning. [speaker009:] Good morning, how are you Douglas? [Douglas:] Not bad at all sir, thank you and you? [speaker009:] Has it stopped raining? [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] Not yet, just a, well that's it, I don't know, it's pretty dismal. [speaker009:] Horrible isn't it, but I hear it's gonna be a bit better this afternoon. [Douglas:] Yes, I think it, a little bit better, but much colder at the weekend, with a touch of sleet, by Sunday evening, we're told... mm. [speaker009:] Oh, sleet on Sunday, oh dear. [Douglas:] Never mind, you can all warm us up with your, your programme this morning. [speaker009:] Well, we start with the morning talkback, and the hour between ten and eleven, er, it's erm,, and the Vocational Guidance Association, helping people to find the job they really want. Er, between eleven and eleven thirty, Mike and Mark will be joining me, they're the authors of the official politically incorrect handbook. [LAUGHTER] And between eleven thirty and twelve, Eddis who's the author of London, Under London. We'll be talking. Some fascinating things happen under [Douglas:] Yes, I'm sure. [speaker008:] And then between twelve and one, it's sport back on talkback with Tony. [Douglas:] Mm, right. [speaker009:] That's it. [Douglas:] Right, right, I think you'll get a lot of calls on er, Danny Blanchflower this morning, a lot of people ringing up, remembering him with er great fondness. [speaker009:] Yes, I'm sure we will. A terrible thing that he, he had Alzheimer's Disease for so long I mean, he was only, you know, sixty seven when he died, terrible. [Douglas:] Mhm, yes, yes, yes, yeah, but a wonderful, wonderful player, [speaker009:] And one of the most intelligent, er, footballers, I've ever met, right [Douglas:] yes, mm, yes, yeah. Well, I think we'll get a lot of calls, and people remember him with great fondness. Pete thank you very much indeed. Pete Murray, between nine and one. Nine minutes to nine is the time now. On we go to the birthdays.... [tape change] [speaker004:] Saw Dennis Law on T V, and he says that when he first played against Danny, he kicked him all round, all, all over the park. [Douglas:] Dennis did? [speaker004:] Dennis said that, yeah he said that [Douglas:] Dennis was a fairly, let's put it er, as mildly as we can, a fairly competitive player wasn't he? [speaker004:] I think he was. [Douglas:] I think that's er, perhaps, er, enough to be said about Dennis Law's game. A brilliant player, played many great games, but erm, very competitive. [speaker004:] I must say, he said that he regretted it now. But he was young probably. It was the first game he played against. But erm, and the other thing is, er, going back before er, Danny Blanchflower we had a goalkeeper [Douglas:] Yes, Ted. [speaker004:] You remember him? [Douglas:] I do, the cat they used to call him, mm. [speaker004:] That's right and I believe, well I think he was the first goalkeeper to throw the ball out. I never saw a goalkeeper before him throw a ball out to erm, you know, a player. [Douglas:] No, I don't know Alf, I can't remember if he was the first goalkeeper ever to throw a ball out to a player but, er if you want to ring up, tell you what you want to do, you want to ring up if you're around, between twelve and one, and discuss that with Pete Murray, and Tony Lockwood, for, when they have the sport back on Talkback, and er, that of course, is the specialist sportsperson's hour, and er, they may be able to throw a bit of light on that. But I can remember Ted very well indeed. The cat, yeah, he was one of the er, first goalkeepers to er, make a habit of catching the ball, rather than punching it. Anyway, Alf, thank you very much indeed, er, for your call. Rebecca of Poplar. Sadly the last call, I think we'll be able to squeeze in this morning on our programme. Rebecca, good morning. [speaker002:] Good morning, Doug. It's in regards about the television licences. [Douglas:] Yes? [speaker002:] Well, I'm eighty four years old, [Douglas:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and I pay full price, eighty three. I heard a while ago on the radio, that they were gonna put it up to eighty four fifty. Now, in regards about that, what I don't understand, people who live in sheltered accommodation, some pay five pound a year, some pay nothing. So I say, if it's good for one pensioner to that, why don't they allow other pensioners to pay it? [Douglas:] Yes. [speaker002:] Or, even make it a little cheaper? [Douglas:] Well, I would have thought so, and I think that's what the [speaker002:] I don't mind paying for it, if they could even reduce it a bit [Douglas:] Yes, I think perhaps that is what may happen. I don't want to raise your hopes too much, Rebecca, but I think what, er the idea behind this, I er, thing is, families with two tellies, paying twenty pounds extra for the second set, and perhaps for the third set, another twenty pounds, it's to try and lessen the burden on viewers who genuinely can't afford the existing licence fee as it is now, and Rebecca, I would have thought that you would've fallen into that category. So, er, help may be at hand in the future. And er, on that message, er, it seems, er good enough time to say that's er, all we have time for as far as the phone calls are concerned on the Breakfast Call this morning. It's three minutes to nine, we'll have a break, then we'll have Rob back with the latest traffic.

[Michael:] at the meeting of the accounts and the reports o an of the directors and auditors for the year ended thirty first December eighty nine... and the final dividend for nineteen eighty nine. Secondly, the re-election of directors retiring... er, and thirdly... the appointment of the audit auditors and their remuneration. The A G M will be followed, er, directly after this meeting, er, by an extraordinary general meeting... erm... to propose, er, an increase in the authorized share capital... to seek authority to create new preference share capital... to renew the board's power to allot shares... to [cough] seek authority to purchase our own shares... to reduce share capital by repaying existing preference shares... to make some amendments to the employee share schemes... to increase the aggregate amount available for directors' fees and to enable the company to issue summary financial statements. I'll now call upon David of Coopers and Lybrand to read the report of the auditors to the members. Thank you David. Erm... next, er... I shall be proposing a resolution to receive the report and accounts and to declare a dividend. Then... before putting the resolution to the vote... I shall say a few words and ask whether, ah, there are any questions. The report and accounts have been in your hands for the statutory period... er, and you've had the chance to read my statement. I therefore propose that the report of the directors and the audited accounts for the year ended thirty first December nineteen eighty nine now submitted to this meeting... be and are hereby... er, received and that the final dividend of twelve point five pence, er, net per share, recommended by the directors... be and is hereby declared payable on first June nineteen ninety, to holders of ordinary shares of the company on the register, three P M... on fourth of May nineteen ninety. We are entering the nineteen nineties as a well-defined... well-balanced company... both in the spread of our businesses and the geographical spread of our markets. We now generate sixty five percent of our sales outside the United Kingdom. We had another excellent year in nineteen eighty nine... with a twenty percent increase in earnings per share and a nineteen percent increase in dividends per share. Since eighty two... er, when we merged the two Pearson public companies... we have increased Pearson's earnings per share and dividends four-fold. We have achieved this by selling top quality products and services expertly and aggressively in the international marketplace... by acquiring businesses which complement and support our four chosen areas of operation... and by disposing of businesses which had no obvious place in those areas. I explained in my statement in the annual report about the management reorganisation which occurred at the end of nineteen eighty nine. Although Frank has been a director of Pearson since nineteen eighty six and those of you been to this meeting in the last few years will have seen him before... I'd like to introduce, ah, Frank to you in his new capacity... Managing Director and Chief Operating Officer at Pearson. Frank, will you take a bow. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Michael:] Erm, many of you will also have seen Jean-Claude at previous meetings... which he attended in the capacity as to Michel. I'd like to welcome Jean-Claude to this his first A G M as a full member of the board. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Michael:] Er, now to move on to events that have happened since the, er, annual report was printed... many of you will no doubt have seen in the press that the same time as we announced our results at the end of March that we agreed to buy, er, the Alton Towers theme park... er, in Staffordshire, from John, for sixty million pounds... er, the purchase has now been completed. Erm, Alton Towers is a really marvellous addition to the Group... er, which intends to develop the business further both by attracting more visitors... er, with new and exciting rides and also, er, by, through their unique knack of increasing visitor spending levels. Er, we also announced at the same time as the Alton, er, Towers acquisition that Longman had acquired Rank Training for eleven and a half million pounds. Er, this company has a leading position, er, in the fast expanding field of video training products for the corporate market... and that's an area which Longman has identified, er, as a new area for expansion. Longman is already one of the U K's leading providers of business education... materials and will use this base to develop and expand the Rank Training business. If the early nineteen nineties are as testing a time for U S and U K markets as many people predict... I'm nonetheless confident that Pearson is better placed than most companies to withstand this. In the first quarter of this year... we've seen more moderate growth in those geographical areas... but in nineteen eighty nine nearly forty percent of Pearson's trading ca profit... came from economies outside the U K and North America... and we expect our activities in these other areas to continue to grow at a satisfactory rate. Well, I think that concludes, er, the, er er, remarks that I'd like to, er, make. I've already put the, er, resolution to the shareholders but, erm... er, before voting on it I'd be pleased to answer any questions. And could you, could you say... your name... and... [speaker003:] My name is Mr, I am an ordinary shareholder of some years' standing. I welcome your speech because you have a quite a good habit of optimistic outlook future which is contrary to what a lot of other chairmen are saying. it does, it does the company very very no chance in the following year share prices have dropped enormously. I noted you that the company bought Alton Towers. Now I'm not I'm asking is whether its shareholders could write in to apply for a concessionary ticket to Alton Towers and get a reduced price if they so wish. Thank you very much. [Michael:] Thank you, Mr. Er... er, I've, er I just... I'm just saying that, er, that, that last year... er, when I made a few remarks... that they were misquoted by Reuters and we did leave the meeting and the share price dropped by... er, several P... and we had to send out a correcting statement so this year we've taken the precaution of issuing a press release... er, at the same time as er, er, I'm making these remarks so I hope at least they won't be misinterpreted. Erm... as to I think I heard you say... er, ask about concessionary prices to Alton... Towers, was that correct? [speaker003:] [inaudible response] [Michael:] Ya. Well... er... we, we've taken a, a, a policy view over the years because the group has a number of er very attractive er products and, and, and, and shareholders have frequently asked if was possible... erm, to have concessions in all sorts of areas and the view we've taken... is that... it involves a, a, a, a, a great deal of administration... and that our real job is to... er... increase the profits of the business... er,a as well as we can and then to pay dividends to the shareholders... erm... who will... er, er, then use that money... er, hopefully to buy a good number of our products. Yes sir. [speaker003:] Good morning. My name is... and, er... it appears to me, sir... that you like to make life difficult for the managers to negotiate wage settlements with the employees of the company... I note that your salary has increased by more than fifty percent... in one year. That I don't think will please John Major or Mrs Thatcher... for being, er... seeing you fuelling and other directors and all the directors of our public companies... fuelling inflation with their inflationary wage rises... doesn't seem reasonable whatsoever... and I think that er... one should consider this in a different light. [Michael:] Thank you for... er, question. There's been quite a lot of comment in the press... erm, on high levels of, of salary... of, of remu remuneration for directors and I think it might be helpful... er, if I was... were t were, were to make some general remarks on the background... er, of how we... er, approach directors' remuneration. On the question of my own... er... er, er, position... I think I would ask, er, in a minute to have Sir Simon to say something... because er, er, er, I don't, I... I, you know, I don't set my own remuneration. Er, and... in general we have a, er, panel of the non-executive directors who set the directors' salary... in relation to the other directors I am also on that panel... er, but obviously not in relation to my own salary. Erm... we have, er, access to the advice of professional advisers, namely and Co... our policy is to keep base salaries at the mid-point of market competitive range... erm, and provide bonus opportunities that can lift total take home pay into the upper quartile. Erm... the bonus element of the Pearson scheme is highly leveraged... we are very keen to achieve above-average performance for our shareholders... and let me give you an example, if in nineteen ninety... erm... Pearsons as a company achieved say five percent... growth in earnings per share... erm... the directors' remuneration, and by the way that's not a forecast so I want to make that absolutely clear, it's just an illustration... if earnings per share increase by five percent and you could say, er, therefore we would expect directors' remuneration to be perhaps increased by five percent... that wouldn't be the case at all... our directors' salaries would actually halve... erm, Ill say that again, directors' total take home pay would halve because the salary element wouldn't, wouldn't alter. Erm... so... er... i i i er, I think that erm, er er er y you'll see that erm th th the the situation isn't, erm, er, perhaps quite as simple a a as you might, erm... as you might think... erm... and, er, next year if that happened... er, perhaps there'd be headlines saying Pearson directors... er, half their remuneration. Erm... and the reason we set this is that we are... erm... er... the... er, er... we believe that this above average er growth in the... in the, erm, er, earnings per share of the company is what shareh increases in shareholder value really depend on... and... er... again to give an example... erm, if you take the, the, the, the, the, the F T S E a hundred companies... erm, and you do analyses of their... er, growth rates and earnings per share you will find that the average growth rate was eleven and a half percent... and ours... er, was... er, twenty, twenty percent... so it's above average remuneration... erm, er, er, for above av... for above average performance. And I don't think I can say much more than that but perhaps Simon [speaker003:] I hardly feel, sir, that erm... erm... you don't have some influence on your salaries and the other directors' salaries, I've heard a lot of directors and chairmen say that they have no influence on their own salaries. This doesn't cut any ice with me because I believe that... none of these directors would be in on the board if they weren't invited there by yourself. So... erm... [Michael:] Erm... well, I, I, I beg to correct you. Er... these directors are the bosses of international, erm, companies themselves. They have no, they have no personal, erm, relationship with me... er, I'll give you the example of one of our, erm... er, er... er... erm, er... most recent directors who's, who's just joined the board, Mr Ruben, who's the head of Colgate Palmo Palmolive, and I just described to him... to you how we, erm... how... we, er er er er er selected him. We went to, er, we felt that we needed, er, a U S director because much of our business is in the U S... with wide marketing experience... we went to, erm, headhunters... er, in America... who drew up... er, a list of sixty people, culled from their own research... erm... we narrowed that down as an executive to twelve. We presented these twelve names, er, to the board of Pearsons... erm, the board selected three... er, we kept one in reserve and I was sent out to America by the board to see, er, the two, er, leading candidates. Erm, I met Mr for the first time in the airport lounge at, erm... er, er, Kennedy Airport... erm, we discussed at great length and had a very interesting discussion... erm, er, Pearsons... erm, he accepted... er, the job... and h I, he has no obligation to me whatsoever... and he is one of the... er, members of the... er, remuneration committee, and I actually take offence at what you're saying. Simon [speaker003:] I'm very sorry you take offence, sir. no offence meant and I... I really hope that you do not take offence in that way. Erm This may be out of order but, er, personal experience is that... the, er, non-executive directors who were involved in the compensation... made a recommendation that, er... Michael 's salary be higher... erm, than he in fact a agreed with, he requested that we lower it... and in fact that was what was done. Well, I do hope that our public companies take into consideration inflation in the future. Er, thank you very much. I'm very [Simon:] Ladies [speaker003:] sorry, sir, that if you took offence at anything I said. There was no offence meant. [Simon:] Thank you. La ladies and gentlemen Lord has asked me to say a few words about erm... er, directors' salaries and particularly about his own. Now I don't stand here in any sense of defending these salaries, in fact I think our policy is entirely right... and it is not inflationary. Ergo, we have to look, I think, at the record of this company over the last few years and as the chairman said in his introductory remarks... the growth in the company, the growth in the earnings per share, has been very remarkable. The, er, credit to that goes to the chairman and chief executive... and the executive directors... and they are responsible for the business... and it is right, in my view, that they should be rewarded for it and encouraged to take risks... to work very hard on our behalf... to ensure that that growth continues... er, er, that benefits the, er, company, it benefits the country... it benefits the... er... ergo, people who are working for it, it is not inflationary because we are looking at productivity and the productivity in the company has increased significantly. Now, as the chairman said... we base the salaries of directors on two elements... an element of base salary which looks at market levels and we... ergo, have a fair base which reflects a sort of medium to upper level of companies of this size... we then leverage, very carefully, a bonus scheme related to performance... and I believe that is the right thing to do and I believe and so do my fellow directors who sit on that committee... believe that it is one of the reasons that we've seen the great growth in this company over the last five years which you've achieved... and which actually the Chancellor of the Exchequer would very glad about because it is increasing the wealth and the benefit of this country, particularly as a lot of those earnings are coming from overseas... and will in, in time be repatriated in Britain. So I believe we're doing the right thing, I think it's for the good of the country... I think it's for the good of the company and the shareholders. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Michael:] I'd just like to add... er, that I didn't take offence at the question, I think it was a perfectly qu fair question, it was the, the inference of, of rigging salaries. Er... right, could we go on to perhaps a less emotive issue. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Er, my name's John. Could I make a constructive suggestion in this context of board salaries or remunerations... or compensation packages... or bonuses... I'm saying that in a slightly tongue in cheek way because I believe that the majority of shareholders don't understand the differences between these concepts, as you gentlemen evidently do. Most ordinary shareholders have never... had a total remuneration package and have never been part of a... performance-related bonus scheme. Would you be prepared, er... chairman and gentlemen... to consider Pearson giving a lead in spelling out, in the next annual report... the precise relationship between the bonus element... and... some parameter which I gather from your earlier remarks is probably earnings per share. I think this might help to... defuse the whole situation which is getting a little bit hot, I've been [speaker003:] [cough] [John:] to a lot of A G Ms recently and this topic is coming up at most and one feels that it almost may become an issue at the next general election. W would you be prepared to consider this at another, at, at a future board meeting? [Michael:] I think that's a very constructive suggestion and we'll certainly... er, consider it... er, in drawing up the... er, annual report and accounts next year. Yes, lady at the back. [speaker003:] Erm... er, my name's, an ordinary shareholder for long-standing... erm, it would be very interesting, I don't know whether this is possible now or maybe following on from what the speaker has said, if we had some idea of the American system which is... er, I only know very little about it... er... I, just how that works because we have presidents and vice presidents and, er... I think it work rather differently. So... it would be rather interesting if we could have some sort of comparison. [Michael:] Would one of our American directors [LAUGHTER] like to []... [speaker003:] I would have to confess that by American standards the er... er... the, er, directors of Pearson, the executive directors of Pearson and... er, the chairman of Pearson and I think that the directors of most English companies are significantly underpaid by U S standards... that's not to say it's right but, er, that seems to be the, er... ha... the current trend. Actually, I, I didn't mean that, er... regarding the actual amounts because I'm fully aware of the fact that the American ones are very much higher, it's merely the method by which they are... erm... My own feeling is that there is a great similarity and that there is a... a base salary normally which is... set on a competitive level with a target as in this case... perhaps at the mid-point, perhaps at the sixty percent level or whatever it would be... and that a significant uplift in compensation can be obtained by a bonus scheme, if the performance of the company as measured in earnings per share, return on capital, return on equity or any m other measure... if those objectives are met. So I think that th the scheme that... erm... Pearson uses is... er, not at all dissimilar to what would be a fairly standard practice in the United States. and people like that, but... er, I believe that the, the way it's actually organized is different. It, again I have to, I have to say that talk about the company of which I'm chairman... is that there is a... personnel and compensation committee... which in the absence of a chief executive... sets the chief executive's remuneration and with the presence of the chief executive, although he's not, I'm not a member of that committee... we work on the other senior executives of the company, it's quite similar to the process used here in your company. [Michael:] Yes sir. [speaker003:] My name is... I have been a shareholder and other members of my family for many years... much has already been said about directors' and your particular... erm, fees in particular. But er it, it, it er it appears to have been overlooked that, erm... some of the directors who were in the bracket in nineteen eighty eight of two hundred and thirty thousand to two ninety five thousand... have been increased from three hundred and fifty five thousand this year to a top of four hundred thousand. Er, you have also erm mentioned about the bonus... er, can I take it from what you have said that this is profit-related? If not... I suggest it should be... and, er, therefore if unfortunately the profits of the company did go down in the foreseeable future... the salaries of yourself and your directors would be reduced. As regards the salaries of the U S A... we've read and seen about so many companies that pay sky-high for v various salaries and other schemes, we don't want that in this country... but we do want a degree of evenness and I would repeat as somebody has already said, that your salary has gone up fifty six percent... which is very, very high. Now there was one other thing if you would care to take it... is that you said that it would involve a great deal of organization for concessionary tickets... for Alton Towers or Tussauds... or any others. Erm... Ready Mix have a theme park... in Th Thorpe Park and there's no problem there of issuing tickets to shareholders for... erm, entertainment of their, their families. They d don't make so much fuss about it... they distribute it... and it gets on very satisfactory and people... er, are very happy to receive these tickets. I think the question of turning it down, that a lot of work is... er, forgive my bluntness... nonsense. Er... one other thing is the... the share capital is sixty five billion pounds. It's true that we had a issue... erm... nineteen eighty five... but the reserves are now six hundred and fifty million. Whether you have given this the same consideration of the increase in, er, directors' salaries... I don't know, but I think y... it's worthy of, er, a further consideration. Er... one last thing... er, do we need so many as eight non-executive directors... which also to be paid? You've got five executive directors... I should think that's adequate with one or two outside directors to... bring outside knowledge or experience... but, er... thirteen is too many I suggest. [Michael:] Er... well there are a number of, of points there and I'll, I'll try and cover them all. The first you asked again about, er, directors' salaries... er, or directors' er... er... remuneration... erm, and I would only say that all the directors are... er... bonuses are linked to earnings per share. Er, I hoped I'd made clear that if the profits of Pearsons... erm... er not only if they went down... but even if er, there was only a small... erm, increase in earnings per share... er... next year... that the... the directors' salaries would be very considerably reduced... and I thought I'd already made that... erm, er, directors' erm remuneration total take home pay would be considerably reduced... thought I'd already made that point. Erm... on... er, Alton Towers which you brought up again... er... the question is where do you stop? Er, it isn't just Alton Towers, it's whether you should get discounts on Penguin Books... it was whether you got, er, bottles of Chateau le Tour... erm... it, it requests for many different things... and, er, you know, alright... er, it... we could, we could, if Alton Towers seemed to be what, er, all shareholders wanted... er, perhaps we, we could consider that... but, but, but we do have a number of a attractive products. Erm... er... your third point was about the balance sheet and I think I'd ask the finance director... Yes... we, we will give consideration to that of course erm... Sorry, can I [speaker003:] [talk in background] [Michael:] Apologies. Erm... we will, course we will give consideration to erm... a further issue which I think is what you were asking us to do. All that does, in effect, as you know is... i i is reduce the unit price... share price, it has no other... effect... erm... a and I think it's purely cosmetic myself and nowadays I think a share price of around seven hundred P which is, er... where the shares are currently hovering, is not... e enormously disproportionate but of course we'll keep it under consideration. Erm... and your last point was about, erm, er... the number of directors and particularly... er, outside directors, non-executive directors. Well all I can say is that, erm... Sir Simon was being extremely modest when he said that the development of this company... er, has been due... er, entirely to the executive directors. That... that isn't actually the case... erm... the non-executive directors have been enormously helpful in, er, the field of strategy... in giving the executive advice... er... they play a very full... er, role in the develop er m development of the company... and erm... they also... er, keep the er executives, er, in order. Who would sack me? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Ch chairman, I wonder if I may just add to that [Michael:] I'm sure you know that the Bank of England... the Bank of England have made a very strong point that on balance there should be more non-executive directors than executive directors in the company... and, er... it is felt very strongly that... to get a good mix of non-executive directors really does protect the shareholders' interests... and, er... I think we're very much following the lead, er, of the Bank of, of England, erm, in this particular respect. And I think that we are very lucky in the very high calibre of non-executive directors we've been able to attract. Name, sir. [speaker003:] On Saturday afternoon last What? [Michael:] Your name! [speaker003:] Oh sorry., same as jam! [LAUGHTER] Er, it's very difficult, yes you all laughed when I asked a question last year from over there to get a capital P in Pearson... because you all laughed... it took twenty weeks to get it... in The Times, do you remember? Right. Now we've got a company secretary... he is... er, an F C I S... Chartered Institute Secretaries... that's much better than a chartered accountant, they're no damn good as secretaries, right! And the [LAUGHTER] [David:] L L B people... really they're not up to much, are they? Now this chap is supposed to have constructive commonsense... forensic ability, what do we mean, the police? Affability... to laugh off his twenty week delay in getting my capital P! Right. Now can we look at his pay... cos you all been busy on the directors' pay and this chartered secretary is really important... and so that he could be available on a Saturday afternoon if he was wanted. Well now, the problem... you say it's emotional... shall I say it was blasphemous, it was Rushdie. Now, erm, the situation there was... that my vicar came to see me... and, erm, what happened was that we've got three churches... well luckily, one of them... only has about twelve in it... another has eighty and another sixty... and he said... well what did he do about Rushdie? And so... well I didn't like what he was doing... but at any rate it happened on Sunday morning... er, somebody read the lesson... and it was Saint, Saint John and there were chapters... and of course it was skipping about the verses all over the place, you just got fed up with verses. Right... he then went to the pulpit... and he said... that he was gonna preach about Lazarus actually... but... he's a quiet fellow and he shouted at the top of his voice... I'm speaking about satanic bondage! [Michael:] Er, Mr... [speaker003:] Yes, is [Michael:] er [speaker003:] that blasphemous? [Michael:] er,n what, what, er, er, I think you need to do is ask your question because... er [speaker003:] Oh right [Michael:] to have a narratable speech is not in order [speaker003:] I'm so sorry. yes, yes... right. Is... erm... do we know anything about Rushdie or anything? Another point is, up in Hull in October... er, somebody wrote a book about Mahatma Ghandi... and he got death threats... so the vice chancellor of Hull University... he's in Fenners he's a director of J H Fenners in industrial. So I suggest the secretary rings up the secretary of Fenners... don't say you're listed in newspapers cos industrial people don't like that... but have a word with Fenners and they'll tell you what's gone on. [Michael:] So, what is your question? [speaker003:] The question is can a small shareholder do anything for Rushdie, am I doing damage for Pearson? I'm trying [Michael:] Mm. [speaker003:] to help Pearson [Michael:] Mm. [speaker003:] ... not pick it to bits over its directors' salaries. [Michael:] Er, well... thank you for your offer of help... it is, er... i i i i it's er... er clearly a very difficult issue, there are... erm, there are important issues of principle... er, in, er... conflicting directions... it is not an easy one... and erm... er er er I don't... er, really know that there is anything... er... that, er... any shareholder of Pearsons is able to do about it. Thank you. [cough]... Are there any further questions? Thank you. Well I will now put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... would they raise their hands... thank you... those against... there is nobody so I can declare it carried unanimously. Thank you very much. Erm... the next matter is the re-election of the retiring directors... and a separate resolution is required for each one... er... I've asked Mr to propose the first resolution. [speaker003:] I propose that Mr J H, a director, retiring by rotation... be... and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. [Michael:] Right. Thank you Mr. I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour... any against? Thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Mr to propose Sir Simon. [speaker003:] I propose that Sir Simon, a director retiring by rotation... be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. [Michael:] Put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour... any against... thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Er... Mr [speaker003:] I propose that Mr, a director retiring by rotation... be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. [Michael:] I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour... any against... I declare the resolution carried. Mr. [speaker003:] Er, I'd like to propose that Mr J C, a director retiring in accordance with article eighty of the company's Articles of Association... be and is hereby re-elected a director of the company. [Michael:] I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour... any against... thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Erm... we now come to the appointment of the auditors and the question of their remuneration. [paper rustling] Under the provisions of the Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five... their appointment... er, requires the annual approval of the shareholders. I therefore propose that Coopers and Lybrand be and are hereby appointed auditors to the company, to hold office from the conclusion of this meeting until the conclusion of the next meeting... er, of the company... at which accounts are laid for the company in accordance with section two four one... Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five... and that their remuneration for this period be fixed by the directors. I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour... any against? Thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Well, that concludes the business of the A G M... and, er... it's now twelve forty... and... er... we can move straight on to deal with the business of the extraordinary general meeting. Erm... you already had, er, the opportunity to read my letter of the eighteenth of April... er, circulated with the report and accounts, which fully explains the proposals being put forward and which are for firstly increasing the authorized share capital of the company... creating two new classes of preference share... er, renewing the board's authority to allot shares... renewing the board's power to modify preemption rights... authorizing the company to purchase its own... er, ordinary shares... reducing the company's share capital by repaying the existing preference shares... er, making certain amendments to the company's employee share schemes... increasing the aggregate sum available for directors' fees... and authorizing the company to issue summary financial statements. Erm... I... hope that the, er, circular... er... pretty fully explains... er, these proposals... but, er... if there are... er, questions... er, I would be very pleased to answer them. Well, if there aren't any questions... er, I would return to the resolutions, er, separately... and I would propose the first one which is an ordinary resolution... namely it's resolution one, set out in the notice of meeting... to increase the authorized share capital of the company. I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... any against? I declare the resolution carried, it's an ordinary resolution. Erm... secondly... I propose a special resolution, resolution two, set out in the notice of the meeting... to create and allot fifty thousand preference shares of U S dollars, a hundred... er, each... and a hundred billion... er, preference shares of one pound each... er, I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... any against? I declare the... er, er... special resolution... er, carried. Erm... I propose that ordinary resolution, resolution three set out in the notice of the meeting... to grant authority to the board to exercise the powers of the company to allot ordinary shares... er, this is an annual... er, event... I put the resolution to the meeting, those in favour... any against?... I declare the, er, resolution carried as an ordinary resolution. Erm... [clears throat] next I propose as a, er, resolution four which is a special resolution... and s [clears throat] set out in the notice of the meeting and is... to modify... to a limited extent, the obligations relating to the allotment of shares for cash... contained in section eighty nine of the Companies Act. Er... I put the resolution to the meeting, those in favour... any against?... I declare the resolution carried as a special resolution. Next resolution five which is an ordinary resolution... er, set ou set out in the notice of the meeting... which is to authorize the company to make market purchases of the ordinary shares of the company. This again is an annual. I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... any against... I declare the resolution, er, carried... er, [clears throat] as an ordinary resolution. Er... resolution six... is a special resolution set out in the notice of the meeting and is to reduce the company's share capital by... [cough] repaying the five... erm... hundred and one thousand, three and a half percent cumulative preference shares of one pound, er, each at par. I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... S... I... well I asked for questions before, Mr, but erm... what is your question? [speaker003:] Why is there a need, sir, to repay the five hundred and one thousand pounds of the three and a half percent cumulative pref shares... it's quite a low interest involved. What a low interest share? [Michael:] Well this gives us the ability... er, for a tidying up operation but the finance director will give more details. [speaker003:] Thank you very much. [Michael:] It's helpful in the context of the... dollar preference shares we want to issue... because one of the factors of this very small, and as you say cheap... er, historic issue of preference shares is that, er... no preference shares other than those can be repaid prior to that... and the dollar shares we wish to issue which are permanent shares, can be... er, can be erm... repaid at our option and we do want to keep that flexibility in the context of either if interest rates get very high or if the tax treaty between the U S and the U K changes to make them more onerous on the company... and in those circumstances we would be inhibited by the existence of this small historic issue of preference shares... and therefore... it is on balance, although you're quite right there, a cheap... er, source of capital in themselves... it is helpful to the company in the wider sense I believe... if they are repaid. I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... any against... declare the resolution... er, carried as a special resolution. Er, next is resolution seven which is an ordinary resolution set out in the notice of the meeting, and it is to authorize the directors to amend the company's employee share schemes in the manner set out in the circular dated eighteenth of April nineteen ninety... to members of the company. I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... any against... I declare the resolution carried as an ordinary resolution. Erm... resolution eight... er, set out in the notice of the meeting... to increase the aggregate annual sum available for directors' fees to two hundred and fifty thousand pounds... I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... any against... I declare the resolution carried as an ordinary re resolution. Erm... finally, resolution nine which is a special resolution set out in the notice of the meeting... er, and it's to alter the company's articles to enable the company to issue summary financial statements. I put the resolution to the meeting... those in favour... any against... thank you very much, I declare the resolution carried as a special reso resolution. Erm, that concludes the business of the extraordinary general meeting... erm, thank you very much for attending and making it a lively meeting... and, erm, my colleagues and I will be pleased to, erm... meet you in the foyer... er, where refreshments are being served. Thank you very much.

[Michael:] Good morning, everyone. I think... we have nearly a full house but there may be one or two more people to come. Erm... taking part within the presentation this morning... ah... are Frank who is the fr managing director of Pearsons, and James... er, who's the finance director. Er... we're going to take questions at the end... er... the camera there is for internal use only... and at the end we'll hand out copies of the slides to anyone who wants them. Our profits are disappointingly small in relation to, er... er, the, er... first half of last year... er then, we had buoyant conditions and we made... more money than we ever had before. Recession had already promised a slow start to this year... er, but in January when worry about the Gulf actually gave way to the war itself... erm, the trading climate which was already weak... erm... worsened still further. Er, consumer confidence fell away and U K consumers kept more of their cash in their pockets... er, in fact, erm, they saved over two and a half billion pounds more in the first quarter of ninety one... than they had in the same... er, quarter of last year. One immediate casualty of the change in conditions was advertising. Recruitment adversiding... advertising for example virtually ground to a halt as businesses started to shed... er, people, rather than to look for them. So what happened to our trading profit? In this analysis... er, if you set aside the effect of our sale of Elsivir... er, the variance was forty nine million... seventy percent of which relates to the U K. The drop in profits from our newspapers was the biggest... and probably the... most... widely expected... a substantial proportion of their costs are fixed... and, er, they therefore are particularly sensitive to, er... changes in volume. Fine china and investment banking inevitably... er, er er er er suffered from the economic conditions... so did entertainment... er, which also brought two extra burdens... er, firstly the er marked reduction in tourism... and, er, for the first time, a three and a half million pound... er, bill for Alton Towers' loss-making winter quarter... which I think we, we've flagged... er, quite consistently. After newspapers, books showed... the largest decline... er, and the fifteen million variance is shared roughly one fifth by Addison Wesley... and two fifths apiece by Penguin and Longman. Two of the abiding characteristics of these businesses are first that like newspapers... a high proportion of their costs are fixed... and secondly, unlike newspapers... er, their main selling season is in the second half of the year. Outside AW's erm, specialists books... er, er, markets... er, book sales have been almost universally slow... there were very high returns as book sellers everywhere reacted to reduced... er, demand by replacing or winding down their stock. This particularly affected Penguin... substantially increasing its spec i its expected first half loss. Penguin also incurred losses of two million on Smithmark... its American remainder book businesses... er, before selling it. Longman... the least seasonally biased of the three... struggled to break even in the first half and this removed the normal pattern of Longman's half-year profits helping to offset the first half losses of the other two businesses... but before we get too depressed... er... I... point out that Addison Wesley s sales were up by eleven percent and the size of the first half loss reflects the company's decision to gear up in advance... er, for what we w believe will be a very strong... er, second... er, half performance. Er, overall... I think it's right to say that we're disappointed by these results but we're not downhearted. All of our businesses have maintained or improved their market shares... as managers... we concentrate on the full year rather on either half... and because of our seasonal bias... er, those of you who've been, er, to our interim presentations before... er, will remember that without fail I tell you... our results at the half-way stage are not a clear guide to the outcome of the year as a whole. The major part of our profits are made in the second half... er, and this year... er... will certainly be no exception. To underline the point I thought I'd show you this four year average... one thing that the exercise shows is that between them... our book, entertainment and fine china businesses normally account for about seven percent of Pearson's annual profit in their first half... and for about thirty three percent of our profit in the full year. This year their net first half contribution was negative... which will strongly exaggerate the seasonal bias towards the second half... er, conditions will still be far from ideal... but with the Gulf factor out of the way and some visible improvement in our overseas markets, particularly North America... we think the trading environment will be broadly equivalent to that of the second half of last year. Now, er, before I hand over to Frank... er, a word about the dividend... er, in recent years we've paid an interim dividend which was half the total of the previous year's dividends... and so, er, had a built-in increase. This year we thought it right to reserve our judgment... er, until the end of the year so we matched last year's interim. Frank. [Frank:] Well... as Michael says, we're not proud of the results... er, and we're not going to try and dress them up, Michael hasn't tried to do that and I certainly don't intend to. But nevertheless I do want to... er, bring home to you the underlying strength of our businesses... there's no question, we're very wel very well faced for, for an upturn. But before doing that... er, you may reasonably ask what action we've taken... er, during this year when it's been such a difficult year. Do you remember... at the announcement of last year's results we erm... we mentioned that we were concentrating on four themes... one's cost reduction... er... driving for cash... erm, improving our market share... and investing for the future. Starting with cost reduction... any cost reduction programme always involves a lot of redundancy... and, and... this is no exception... and from the slide you'll see that we've er... we've had a staff reduction... er, from the... the plan for this year... of one thousand and thirty three... er... and that's the, that will save us in a full year something like fifteen point nine, sixteen million pounds. This year... er, there's been a negative benefit in the first half of two million... and there'll be a positive benefit... in the second half... of two million. Incidentally, it doesn't include the disposal... of Smithmark We've also... er... we've also gone in for other cost reduction... exercises, for instance at er Dalton... with a review of warehousing and distribution... er, we should save about a million pounds in a full year... and we've been ramming home to our chief executives... the need for annual payroll reviews... to be geared... to the profitability of the company... rather than t rather than to the rate of inflation... er, or even, er... in, even the market place. [cough] Driving for cash... er... well an indication of how strongly we, we've been driving for cash is that er... the reduction i in er operating cash flow... is less than the reduction in profit. We've been telling our chief executives that even though you can't get the sales then at least try to work on your working capital, try and get your working capital... er, ratio down. And there's been quite a bit of success in... in that area... both of the newspaper companies... er, are doing better than last year... and er... Longmans for instance expect er... expect their operating cash flow... erm... their working capital rather to be lower this year than last year by... by year end. Erm... improving market share, well all of our businesses have improved their market share during this recession... and I'll, I'll mention them as I go through the individual companies. Investing for the future... although, although we've been keen to drive for cash... er, we really wanted to, to use the benefit of having a strong balance sheet... and so where investment has seemed sensible and sound, we've made those investments, of course we've put er, cash in the B Sky B... er... and we've also invested further in the er... Spanish group, the Recollectors Group... taking our stake in expansion, adding some cash and getting a stake in the bigger... bigger grouping. If we look at the individual businesses... there we er see the individual profits. If we start with the Financial Times... well by their standards it's not a good result... er, but again... let's get it in context, the newspaper's trading margin is just, just under ten percent, it's er it's about nine point six percent... er, and on the circulation front... they've done well in market share terms... where we've marginally improved our... our market share in the quality market. Er... in Europe we've gone up six percent in circulation... and in Japan we're on target there... and under budget. In advertisement, er... in the advertisement volume area, again we've increased our market share... amongst the qu er, quality dailies... a marginal increase... er... but... it's nationally we've done very well... and for instance in Europe... we're sixteen percent head, ahead of last year in volume and revenue terms. On the cost side, apart from the redundancies I mentioned, well including the redundancies I mentioned... er, the non volume related costs are only three percent ahead of the previous year. East India Dock is now... er, virtually fully utilized... printing the Basildon papers in the daytime and the Financial Times at night and the Observer on Saturday night... and we've got high hopes of getting the contract to print... the Japanese er, European edition of the Japanese daily... and that, that will fill the morning slot so that really will be... er, great utilization of, of that er installation. has been affected on the revenue front... mainly in the medical publishing but to some extent... in the erm... in the financial sector... although we're still absolutely market dominant in that sector... but we've increased the circulation there by ten percent. The F T magazines have all increased their market share... and Profile, our electronic, er... erm, information business has grown in revenue terms by twelve percent. Turning to Westminster Press... the cost Westminster Press in a full year... er, will amount to three point eight million pounds... and er.... all of our paid fors have... er, done very well... this year in circulation terms... all but two of them have increased their circulation in the first half, despite quite high price rises, for instance the York county newspaper, the weekly there, we have a daily but the weekly there went up by five P... and the weekly in Bath where again we have a daily... that went up by six P. And every single Westminster Press centre has increased its market share. Turning to er books... and starting with Longman. Well there... as I mentioned a staff reduction of a hundred and ninety two... and significant er staff reduct er cost reduction in other, other areas... we, we analyze every single er publishing unit and where the erm... where they were marginally profitable or less than marginally profitable... er... we've taken appropriate action. And as I mentioned earlier... Longman expect the cash flow this year to be better than last year despite the... the reduction in profits. Last year I told you Alhambra... er, was receiving the treatment. This year it's on profit, on budget at the half-way stage... and I expect it to be on budget by the end of the year. We mentioned a small acquisition in Japan last year,medi on the medical side of Longman, P P S K K... it cost us about four million pounds and we were reckoning on a profit of about half a million a year... pleased to say that its er, its profit looks like getting to a million pounds by the year end. And English Language Teaching at Longman which is of course the biggest er... biggest profit contributor... erm... their blueprint sale is expected to exceed nine hundred thousand this year. Addison Wesley our American college publisher... as Michael mentioned th at the half-way stage their sales were eleven percent ahead of er, last year, and you may remember last year they had record sales and record profits... and er... they're forecasting... er something like fourteen percent a head by the year end in sales terms... and they are expecting to maintain their... their margins... and last year was a very good margin indeed. Once again there's been great emphasis on... cash maintenance. Penguin... the staff reduction there doesn't look particularly er high but then we were reducing staff there last year... and we've er, we've disposed of Smithmark and the travel guides... er, the warehouse and distribution system is working very well and we've been adding distribu distribution clients there... er... the autumn list looks very strong indeed particularly in the U S especially... and er, we've shipped... er, over two million of Stephen King's latest book... and there's another one due in the autumn and we're expecting to ship about two and a half million of er... of, of that one. Er... in the U K we've held our market position and it's been a... a pretty desperate market... we were one of the... few if not the only book seller who refused to er... to yield better discount terms... er, on the threat of er... every, every book seller was every er publisher was threatened with erm not being stocked unless we gave bigger discounts. We held our position against that and I'm pleased to say... er, we will continue, we will continue to be stocked. Er... our distribution system has got great press recently and it's regarded as one of the three best distribution systems in the U K. One of the things we're trying to do is to pay less for our books, it's very easy to pay very very fancy prices for, for... er... mid-range authors and for them not to earn out, so we're looking for much cheaper books. A good example is Dances With Wolves which cost us four thousand... as a and has already sold over a hundred and twenty thousand copies. Penguin continues to try and develop its merchandising... and is quite successful and the latest success is to get the Flower Fairies adopted by Marks and Spencers for their... sleepwear range which will also be marketed in the U S A as well. Federal and Capital is a small... er... but high quality er... new er newsletter business in the States and er... it's done very well indeed to improve its profits. On the entertainments side... er, last year of course we had that one-off benefit with not having to absorb the first quarter's loss... and this year the er... first quarter... was pretty disastrous because we had an er er an er amalgamation of, of A the Gulf War... B the recession... and in London I R A bombing... and that really stopped tourists coming to London... from overseas and from the rest of the U K. But I'm pleased to say that er... we, we're coming back very strongly... and for instance in July... at virtually all of our centres attendances were either up to last year... very nearl very nearly up to last year... or ahead of last year... and er... at Chessington our revenue was thirteen and a half percent up on last year... which I think justifies our investment there. Some of our competitors in the north have been er... really struggling and erm... offering four pounds off on a seven pound fifty entrance fee... so... bearing that in mind we're v v very confident that we've im improved our market share... in that area too. We opened our Amsterdam, our new exhibition in Amsterdam in June... and er, up to now audiences have flocked there... many weeks they've been thirty percent ahead of er... ahead of budget. Moving on to B Sky B... well it's making excellent progress... by the end of July we had over two point three million homes connected... and over half of those are subscribing to one or two movie channels. Costs are well down and will continue to fall... and I'm more confident than ever that we're on to a winner. If we move to oil... well our oil business obviously operates in a cycle different to our publishing businesses... and er, at the end of the first half it had record sales and profits... fifteen percent ahead in dollar terms... ten percent ahead in, in sterling terms which may surprise you slightly, but I think James probably will talk about that later. This is a particularly good performance, specially in the U S A where there's been a very serious downturn in natural gas. We've increased our market shares virtually everywhere... er... two very strong... er... improvements... Venezuela and Nigeria... and the... the initiative we've taken with the Soviets to rework their wells... er... should be onstream by the end of the year... and we're hoping that may lead to other... opportunities... er, both in Russia and er... and there's the possibility from that of some business in Eastern Europe as well. Investment banking... although this year it's a very different difficult environment for investment banking particularly a house that concentrates on, on corporate finance... er... there hasn't been a great deal of M and A activity and if, if there has it hasn't been a very high erm very high ticket. Er but there have been a lot of issues and we've done well in that field but of course it doesn't produce the same kind of... fee income as the M and A activity. Lazzards New York managed to maintain their figures of last year in dollar terms... and if we take the Lazzard houses as a whole... we're second only to Goldman Sachs now in the erm... in the M and A table internationally... and that's on the value of bids on which we've advised. Fine China... we had a very poor first four months... but then in May world sales were nine point nine percent ahead of last year... and in the U S A over the last ten weeks we've actually been ahead of nineteen ninety. One factor in this is our exporting the very successful Bridal Collection that we developed in the U K, we've exported that to Canada and the U S and that's gone down very well indeed. We've also had significant growth in our chain store business... in this country... we've signed a new two-year contract with Air Canada... and we're much more optimistic about the rest of the year... we've got orders, production and sales all nicely in equilibrium... ready for the second half. Now I'll pass you to er... James. [James:] I'd just like to make... two or three points... first of all the exchange factor which Frank touched upon when, when talking about profits... you probably all totally familiar but I have forgotten quite how much the dollar has strengthened recently... beginning of the year it was nearly two dollars... and the result of that is that for the erm first half as a whole... the impact of er exchange translation was adverse for our profits compared with last year to the tune of about one and a half million pounds. It's not enormous but it's perhaps... er not the way people er were thinking. Now the consequence of the fact that the dollar end of June... er relatively strong at around one sixty of course did impinge on er our... er borrowings since we do have a considerable percentage of our gross in dollar terms... and if we turn to the next slide... er we can see... er the summary of the balance sheet at thirtieth of June. Now... you'll be familiar with the fact since we went through it in April... that there has been a sharp jump in our known assets... brought about by the sale of Elsivir and the fact that it had a very substantially written down value in our books, seventy five million pounds. So you've had a sharp increase in our shareholders' funds during the six months... and a reduction in our net debt which may not be quite as er... substantial as you expected but it is the combination of on the one hand the proceeds of Elsivir less some reinvestment which Frank mentioned, we put a little more money in B S B and the minority interests and... we do have traditionally in the first half an adverse net movement of funds from operation... about ninety five million... and then we had thirty two million odd... er of simply revaluation as a result of translating our dollar debt... at er... the one sixty as opposed to the... year ending rate. So... net debt is two sixty four million... er and therefore the pro forma debt equity ratio's halved from fifty seven percent to twenty eight percent... we do of course expect it to be somewhat lower by the year end as our working capital... which is coming to its peak season, unwinds. I'd like to go into a little more... the composition of the net debt which again is something that er interests some of you... we have er a reduction both on gross debt and equally an increase in cash as you would expect as a result of the Elsivir sale... the increases are not fixed... debt... fixed term fixed rate debt is a function again of the exchange rate we haven't in issued any more... the whole of the reduction of debt therefore is confined to our floating rate or variable debt and that amount's ready to the repayment of the gilder drawings we had under our to hedge... or partially to hedge our holding in Elsivir We have increased our cash holdings and they remain concentrated in sterling as part of our sterling er asset er portfolio which is managed from Millbank and which we regard as our investable funds as and when needed.

[speaker001:] Bright intervals are possible and apart from the chance of a light shower it should stay dry milder than of late with a top temperature of eleven celsius fifty two fahrenheit in a moderate south easterly wind. Mist and patchy fog will form tonight and drizzle is likely in places too. The overnight low eight celsius that's forty six degrees fahrenheit. Good afternoon from the county's favourite station it's half past twelve. [Alison Ford:] Radio Nottingham news headlines with Alison Ford. Calverton Colliery is to close in just three weeks' time. The proposed closure was confirmed just twenty four hours after British Coal announced the pit was to go into the review procedure and revealed that it's lost more than six million pounds in the last six months. British Coal's Midlands Group Director John Longdon has recommended that Calverton should cease production by November the nineteenth. Nottinghamshire police have released a recording of a girl they believe called the Kingsmill Hospital at Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby. They think it's the same teenager who's made at least a dozen calls to the police and a hospital in Lincolnshire she sometimes uses the name Cindy and sometimes Linda. She says she's fourteen and that the father of her child is her own dad. A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. The probe at Redoaks Training Centre in Ringworth follows a police investigation at Stonecross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield. Nottinghamshire County Council won't confirm what the latest allegations are. They've stressed the two cases aren't linked. A Nottingham car salesman who went with two prostitutes aged fourteen and fifteen has been jailed for three years. Forty seven year old John House of Fairwell Drive in Bulwell denied having unlawful sexual intercourse with the girls but was found guilty at Nottingham Crown Court. Recorded crime in England and Wales rose by three point eight per cent in the year to June. Home Office figures put the total of offences at a record five point seven million but the rate of increase showed a sharp drop on the two previous years and more than half the recorded crime was either theft of or from vehicles. And Nottinghamshire's business leaders are the least confident in the East Midlands about the prospects of increased sales according to a survey by the accountants Price Waterhouse. The survey also says that ten per cent of the county's companies think the market will actually contract in the next six months. Those are the headlines I'll be back with the news in detail at one o'clock. [Geoff Owen:] At twelve thirty two traffic and travel for Wednesday lunchtime listen for a space in a moment first traffic further afield from Jonathan Clays. [Jonathan Clays:] And we take a long range view if you're heading on the motorways this afternoon. Er locally no real troubles on the M One er if you're heading down to Leicestershire we have the work at twenty two on the M One not really causing too many troubles but some brand new work on the go in Northants today between junctions nineteen and eighteen that's the M Six down towards Rugby. Southbound looks pretty slow heading into those roadworks as well for the time being. Of course at the top of Derbyshire at junction thirty on the M One we still have the work there. Again just two lanes open can slow things and a quick glance elsewhere well no real troubles reported just a look at the A One Stanford still the roadworks on the go there both north and south will slow things down. Jonathan Clay's A A Roadwatch. [speaker005:] The Forest park and ride attendant tells me they're fairly busy but with still parking space site for the moment and there's room to park on the Colwick Race Course and the Queens Drive site too and that's service does offer free parking for yourself and your passengers and you can travel into and out of the city again for a pound. Not too many problems on the parking front in the centre of Mansfield. The Walken Street car park attendant tells me there's still plenty of parking space available there. In Nottingham city centre though the Royal Hotel car park that's fairly busy and there are still queues at both entrances of the Victoria Centre and it will take you a good few minutes if you want to get yourself parked in Trinity Square car park they're still operating on a one out one in basis so obviously better to avoid that one if you want to get yourself parked up you can avoid those queues there's plenty of room at the Stoney Street car park that's in the Market there's always the Fletchergate car park St James Street you'll find that next to the Albany Hotel or you could er make your way to the Broadmoor Centre you won't have to queue to get in there. Next update in around twenty five minutes time. [Geoff Owen:] F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five it's Radio Nottingham Nottinghamshire's favourite station. Now it's erm twelve thirty four let's go back to the news this lunchtime. As we've just heard in the headlines Nottinghamshire police have taken the unusual step of releasing a recording of a girl they believe has made at least a dozen calls claiming she's given birth. The initial call was made to the Kingsmill Hospital in Sutton in Ashfield on Saturday night. Since then she's contact Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire police and the Lincoln County Hospital. She uses two name Cindy and Linda and claims to be fourteen years old. She says she lives on a housing estate on the outskirts of Mansfield. [speaker006:] says that I was the one that killed it and I didn't. He was the one that got me pregnant and he says that I can't come home at all now and I phoned the hospital, yes, and they said that come in and if I go in then you're going to arrest me and then you'll just call my dad like you always have done every time I've run away from home and then every time you lot have took me back home and then I end up getting pregnant. [Geoff Owen:] Acting Detective Superintendent Mick Cox is leading the enquiry he's been talking to Nigel Bell and telling him they're convinced that the same girl has made all the phone calls. [Mick Cox:] We sent er our er receptionist to Lincoln to listen to the tape recording. Er she'd held the girl in conversation at Mansfield er for quite a while and she's listened to the tape and she's convinced it's the same girl. [Nigel Bell:] Given the amount of calls and the fact that they're telephoned in different areas it seems a lot of trouble to go through if it was a hoax. [Mick Cox:] Yes exactly and er you've heard the tape er she sounds very harassed er and we're concerned for her welfare. [Nigel Bell:] When was the last telephone call made? [Mick Cox:] On Monday evening we had all these these calls over a three day period. [Nigel Bell:] What's come out in the in the telephone call which you recorded was that er the father baby she is alleging is actually her own father what do you think do you think that puts her in any danger the fact that you're making this public that the father may hear this. [Mick Cox:] That's a possibility but this has been talked through with both the Social Services and the the hospital and er we've decided to take that chance. [Nigel Bell:] In terms of your inquiries where have you been trying to get information from? What about local schools in the area? [Mick Cox:] We've been in touch with all the local schools in the in the Mansfield area er we've followed up inquiries of girls that have not been at school and so on and er these er have led to er to nothing. [Nigel Bell:] She says that she she lives in a on the estate on the outskirts of Mansfield have you been checking around that area? [Mick Cox:] Yes but of of course we've got a number of estates er around the Mansfield er but we have made inquiries we've er er we've made appeals through the press and the radio as you well know. [Nigel Bell:] Are there any leads at the moment? [Mick Cox:] None at all only the er er the tape recorded message that she er er left with the er police at Lincoln. [Nigel Bell:] Given the prospect that that her father is actually the father of this child do you that she'll still be at home? [Mick Cox:] I've no idea I can't er I can't say whether she would be at home or not. [Nigel Bell:] What about assurances then she's obviously distressed she thinks that she's going to be in trouble if she come to the police. [Mick Cox:] Well I'm bothered about her health and that and that's what I must emphasize to her if she's listening that er as far as we're concerned we would want to just give her some sympathy advice and support in relation to this matter. [Nigel Bell:] Well what about family ties family ties are strong if she's worried her father's going to get into trouble as well. [Mick Cox:] Yes I can appreciate that but at this moment I'm not worried or bothered about any prosecutions in relation to this matter I'm bothered about the ch the child's er health. She can contact the hospital or the Social Services where who've agreed to er to talk to her and give her all the advice and comfort that she needs. [Nigel Bell:] From your point of view apart from waiting for further calls from her what can the police do? [Mick Cox:] Well we're still continuing to to monitor the situation we're still carrying on inquiries at er at schools we're going further afield now in case there is some suggestion that she she might be living further afield er towards Worksop or even in towards Derbyshire. [Geoff Owen:] Now if you did recognize the voice or you think you can help the police then there's a free phone number to contact it's O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine it's O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine that's a free phone number so it won't cost you anything to call O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine it's the number to call if you did recognize the voice there or you think you can help the police in any way O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine and there'll be more on that in our next main news which is on the way at one o'clock. Now let's look at some placed to go and thinks to do and people to see for later on today. This lunchtime from one until three the Meadows Community Art Centre are running a craft marathon. You can go along there and make crafts cards and Christmas presents no experience is necessary and you can take one object home each day and the remaining items will be sold at a Christmas Craft Fair to raise funds for the arts project. It's free to have a go and the Centre is on Queens Walk in the Meadows in Nottingham that's from one until three today if you want to go there. One till three as well the Special Needs Support Group are meeting at Ilkeston Health Centre and they offer mutual support and understanding to those parents who have children with special needs. One fifteen till three fifteen the Blidworth Wow Group are meeting in the Blidworth Social and Welfare Centre to learn more about screen printing. A creche is provided and that costs fifty P ten bob. One thirty until three thirty a friendly ballroom and sequence tea dance with refreshments is on and the I C C on Mansfield Road in Nottingham the International Community Centre and that's half one till half three. Half one until three forty five sequence dancing on at St John's Church Hall on Greylands Road at Bilborough the cost is seventy five pence there including a cup of tea and bickies too. One forty five the Keep Fit Association and got ladies keep fit to music at Attenborough Village Hall. Six till seven this evening the youth and junior group of the Beeston Red Cross are meeting at a hundred and fifty six High Road in Beeston that's the Red Cross Centre at six. Seven o'clock an evening of entertainment with clairvoyant medium Brian Gibson is on at the Scout's Headquarters on Lovers Lane at Newark tickets are two fifty there seven until nine. A ten week preparation course on to the Open University programme leading to the diploma in Health and Social Welfare starts. This is at Clarendon College at seven and that's on Pallam Avenue just off Mansfield Road in Nottingham er contact the college for more information that starts at seven tonight. Seven thirty a tour of the Broadmarsh Caves leads from the Broadmarsh Centre to book a place on the tour call Nottingham four eight three five O four four eight three five O four. Half seven the Hare and Hounds at Warsop and District Camera Club they're meeting at the Hare and Hounds pub in Warsop and tonight they have a competition Slides in Action and seven thirty Slimmers Clubs U K are meeting at the Age Concern Centre Street in Beeston and seven thirty as well until eight thirty a mixed ability aerobics class is on in the gymnasium of Rainworth Recreation Centre that's one fifty there and Joe Walker Zydeco Band direct from Louisiana are appearing at the Old Vic on Fletchergate at Nottingham tonight at half seven six pounds the tickets there four pounds concessions and they're available on the door. Anything you're up to let us know it's What's On B B C Radio Nottingham P O Box two two two in Nottingham Nottingham N G one three H Z to write to er give us a couple of weeks' notice if you can. You tell us and we'll tell Nottinghamshire for free so that's What's On B B C Radio Nottingham Box two two two in Nottingham Nottingham N G one three H Z to write to and don't forget tonight as well er if you want to come out and see us we're doing Drinking Partners our pub quiz er we're in the Star Inn on Middle Street in Beeston and the evening there starts at eight o'clock. [music] Albert Hammond that is and er A Free Electric Band it's Radio Nottingham it's a quarter to one and er Action Line Action Line time now and er in a film Thelma and Louise that's starter of the trend for stronger independent women if er you fancy a lift but want something a little less drastic then our Louise from the Action Line team is here today with something to tickle your fancy I'm scared now I hope you're not suggesting that er women take to their cars and mow down any unsuspecting male that gets in their way. [Louise:] Now would I Geoff do you think I really would do you then. [Geoff Owen:] Well I would hope not actually that's that's a relief so er so so tell us what we're talking about today. [Louise:] Well I'm going to suggest going back to education. Returning to learning is not easy for everyone especially if you've had time out to bring up your kids. You may need a lot of confidence a lot of support and you might even need some help looking after your children if they're quite young. Well if you live in Snainton towns then I've got details of an organization that can help out with all those things and help you get back onto the learning ladder and maybe into a job. [Geoff Owen:] All right then tell us who they are and what they do. [Louise:] Okay well there's something we talk about a lot on the Action Line they're called Fast Forward and they're a training agency. They run courses especially for people who might find it difficult to do a course at their local college because of things like language difficulties and the fact that you might have children to look after. David is an education and training development worker for Fast Forward. Here he is to explain what Fast Forward do and why they're needed. [David:] There are a lot of barriers that exist between people and training some of them could be things like they don't have access to child care it could be they lack confidence so we go for support and we can offer training which is local we can offer language support. Basically we we try to break down any barriers that might exist between local people and the training opportunities that do exist. [Geoff Owen:] That was David who works for Fast Forward. It sounds really good because as David said you choose the course and they'll help you out with all the practical things like child care and travel expenses. What about the the actual courses though what kind of courses can you do? [Louise:] Well they've got er links with six colleges so they can offer you more or less anything from management to catering to horticulture. They've got erm an adult literacy course if you want to brush up on your reading and your writing they've got computer courses they've got a course in sound engineering and a works skills for women course which is what Sarah did. [speaker001:] Well it involved a lot of things a bit of everything. Typing and word processing everything really. It was very good very very good for women that have been home for a long time and want to get their confidence back. At the end you know what you want and you get your child care and your travel care. I go to college now I'm doing my G C S Es and I'm enjoying them very much and I'm glad I went onto that course first. [Geoff Owen:] That was Sarah who did the Works Skills for Women Course at Fast Forward and that's now helped her to get on to some G C S E courses at college. Can anyone go along to Fast Forward then is it open to all comers. [Louise:] Yep erm well anyone can go along but you do have to live in Snainton or St Annes. You don't need any qualifications or anything like that. If this is you and you'd like to get back into education and get on a course why not go along to Fast Forward. They can help you with your training needs your child care and your travel and they can also provide the support you need if you're not confident about going back to learning. Here's Sarah again. [speaker001:] I didn't want to stay at home I wanted to get back into education and I didn't know how to the easiest way I suppose. It was so scary coming you know all them years staying at home you lose all your confidence and it's a very very good way and I recommend all women to do that who are like me children and have been home that long. My family was very very supportive my mum was very happy that I was doing something for myself later on in my life it will help me very much and my husband was very very good. [Geoff Owen:] That was Sarah talking about her course at Fast Forward. Now if this sounds like it could be the kind of course you need call Action Line and they'll put you in touch with the people at Fast Forward and once you've got the training and the qualifications the next thing is the application form isn't it and you've got details as well today of someone who can help with that haven't you? [Louise:] That's right trying to find work these days can be demanding and extremely frustrating so you want to make sure that you give yourself the best chance of getting a job and one way to help is to do a good application form and know how to handle yourself in an interview. Well there's an organization in Radford who can help out with both of these things they're called A T O Training and they can tell you all you need to know about things like application forms and interview techniques as well as advice about further education and wan t what to do if you want to start your own business. [Geoff Owen:] Now Fast Forward was for everyone wasn't it, this one isn't? [Louise:] No it isn't. First of all you have to be unemployed and you have to be black or Asian. Now it's especially for people who are black or Asian because a lot of the time they miss out on the opportunities that are available to a lot of other people because of things like language barriers and although you might think it's unfair it's not actually illegal. The Race Relations Act says that you can do this you can have courses especially for black or Asian people so as I said you have to be unemployed you have to be black or Asian and you have to live in either Radford Hyson Green St Annes Lenton or Snainton. I'll just say those again it's Radford Hyson Green St Annes Lenton or Snainton. If this is you and you'd like some help or advice about interviews and application forms then call us on Nottingham four double one two double two and we'll put in touch with A T O Training and if this isn't you if you're not black or Asian and you would like some help then you can call us as well and we'll try and find something for you. [Geoff Owen:] All right four double one two double two to call Radio Nottingham's Action Line if you want to know any more about Fast Forward and the courses available there and how you can get on them or if you want to know about A T O Training as well four double one two double two and try and call Action Line before four o'clock this afternoon if you can. Er what's happening tomorrow then? [Louise:] Well Carolyn's here tomorrow Geoff to show that age is just a state of mind. That's tomorrow but [Geoff Owen:] [LAUGHTER] All right. [] [Louise:] [LAUGHTER] Don't forget our bonfire list. If you want to know where your nearest display is then you can call us now on Nottingham four double one two double two. [Geoff Owen:] If you're stuck for somewhere to take the kids on firework night and you want to know the one that's nearest to you Action Line have got a great big long list you've got piles haven't you? [Louise:] Piles and piles. [Geoff Owen:] They've got piles over there er four double one two double two to call Action Line and er try and call before four o'clock this afternoon if you can for the er information about the firework displays that are near to you for more details about Fast Forward and details about A T O Training as well Nottingham four double one two double two for Radio Nottingham's Action Line call before four. [music] Billy Joel and er the River of Dreams it's Radio Nottingham six minutes to one o'clock now Kids' County for today these have been the clues, It's cheap it's quite big and you can see a pub and you can see the Victoria Baths. Erm the Castle and Aldi Supermarket guess so far Cecil's on from Plumtree hello. Hello there Geoffrey. How are you? Oh I'm very well thank you and you. Marvellous. Good man. Absolutely marvellous. Er what do you think about this erm this leaf stem sculpture that all the fuss is about you know the one that's down by er Marks and Spencers? Well I I mean I actually the the leaf sculpture itself I I don't really think a lot of it. Don't you? Not really no I What about the trees? What about the trees that are all around it? Oh the trees should remain. Cos they want to pull the trees up as well. Well I can't understand anyone want to pull trees down I mean I've got a tree in the in my garden it's about seventy feet high. I know it's a bit dangerous but I wouldn't cut it down. Yeah I mean I think I think they'll put some more there afterwards but Yes but you know I mean a tr a tree takes a long time to mature doesn't it? Yeah. You know and I mean it seems such a shame to cut it I mean they're living things aren't they? You'd have er there's somebody on yesterday who said that thinks it should er it should be against the law to cut a tree down. Well of course there is there is such a thing as a preservation order [LAUGHTER] isn't there []? Yeah yeah. So I mean you stick those on them and er and er they won't be able to cut them down. Well we'll see what we say anyway we've got er we've got a couple of the Councillors on erm after one o'clock today Councillor Stuart Argyle and we've got David Poole on as well Oh right to give us both sides of the argument so we'll see what they have to say and er invite people's calls as well see what they think about it. it would be very interesting to hear what they've got to say I mean especially someone who wants to cut them down I can't understand anyone wanting to cut trees down unless they're dangerous. Yeah tree van You know I mean Tree vandalism it's called eh? Well it is I mean trees give off oxygen anyway don't they? Mm yeah. You know and they soak up carbon dioxide so it's good for the environment. Yeah. Yeah why anyone wants to cut them I don't know. Yeah well we'll see what they say. Yeah it will be very interesting yes very interesting. We'll see what they say see what they say afterwards. Because people are getting rather agitated about it you know. [LAUGHTER] yeah. [] Erm anyway the Kids' County what are we talking about? Well I I thought after your first two clues it was Green's Windmill. Oh. Oh. Oh Cecil no. Oh oh dear You passed it. Oh what a shame. Never mind have a go have a go again soon. I will. Tarrah. Tarrah. Bye bye. Er Hilda's on from Southwell [shouting] Southwell []. [Alison Ford:] Hi Southwell. [Geoff Owen:] [LAUGHTER] Are you all right? [] [Alison Ford:] [LAUGHTER] Yes I'm fine. [] [Geoff Owen:] I could tell you were going to be a Southwell one. [Alison Ford:] Oh really? [Geoff Owen:] [shouting] Southwell [] For goodness sake [Alison Ford:] Southwell You didn't say it correctly. [Geoff Owen:] Southwell erm what you up to today Hilda. [Alison Ford:] Well I've been making Christmas cake this morning so I feel quite er happy with myself. [Geoff Owen:] Oh I see. Slosh a bit in the cake and slosh a bit in your throat. [Alison Ford:] That's right. [Geoff Owen:] Is it one for you and one for me? [Alison Ford:] Almost yes. [Geoff Owen:] [LAUGHTER] How much have you put in? [Alison Ford:] Er four tablespoons in the cake. [Geoff Owen:] Have you and how much have you put in you? [Alison Ford:] Well I licked the spoon. [Geoff Owen:] Did you? [Alison Ford:] [LAUGHTER]. [Geoff Owen:] And you licked it again and you filled it up and you licked it again. [Alison Ford:] No no. [Geoff Owen:] Are you going to keep feeding it up until Christmas? [Alison Ford:] Yes every week it has to be fed. [Geoff Owen:] Do you how much do put in when you give it a feed? [Alison Ford:] Well you prick it all over with your a knitting needle or something [Geoff Owen:] Mhm. [Alison Ford:] and then put about two tablespoons on each time and stand back. [Geoff Owen:] Well you'll have a happy Christmas won't you? [Alison Ford:] Mm. [Geoff Owen:] Kids' County what are they talking about? [Alison Ford:] Snainton Market. [Geoff Owen:] Yes. [Alison Ford:] Ooh. [Geoff Owen:] Yes. Hooray it took so long to get that sorted as well. [Alison Ford:] Yes I know cos you did have it on a few weeks ago. [Geoff Owen:] Did we? [Alison Ford:] The same thing. [Geoff Owen:] No. [Alison Ford:] Mm. [Geoff Owen:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [Alison Ford:] My daughter's been trying to get on for ages. [Geoff Owen:] Has she? [Alison Ford:] Yeah but you ignored her last week. [Geoff Owen:] Oh I would never do that. [Alison Ford:] I think you were sick of the kids. [Geoff Owen:] Oh kids. [Alison Ford:] [LAUGHTER]. [Geoff Owen:] Grrr never mind they've all gone back to school haven't they? [Alison Ford:] Yes it's wonderful. [Geoff Owen:] Thank the Lord there is a God. You can have erm loads off the stuff off the conveyor belt for you for today you can have er a video loads of C Ds some sweets and toffees and things erm some crates of moist toilet tissue. [Alison Ford:] Wonderful. [Geoff Owen:] Cos they sent me loads of that and er I'll sort you out with a T shirt as well all right? [Alison Ford:] Yes find super thanks Geoff. [Geoff Owen:] Okey-dokey well erm hang on the line and er we'll get you all sorted. Best do another one best do er Kids' County number two for today same as before Nottinghamshire's kids talking about Nottinghamshire's people and places and things I need to know where they're describing remember whatever the answer is it's always somewhere around Nottinghamshire always somewhere in the county three four three four three four to ring then for er Kids' County number two for today here's the clues, It's got barbed wire around it it's made of wood it's long. There it's got barbed wire around it it's made of wood and it's long where are they talking about what are they talking about somewhere around Nottinghamshire Nottingham three four three four three four to call from this lot of clues, It's got barbed wire around it it's made of wood it's long. There what are they on about? I tell you what you can get for it you can have erm a make-up bag with a string of pearls in they're not real one you can have er more of that moist erm tissue stuff er a bag with sweetener things in it there's er a video about a Biggin Air Show and loads of marshmallows too for Kids' County number two here's the clues, It's got barbed wire around it its made of wood it's long. Nottingham three four three four three four to ring and er call as well and tell me what you think about that leaf statue and the trees round there cos we've got the councillors on talking about that after er one o'clock today. A quick look at the travel then from Annie Smith. [Jonathan Clays:] On the parking front in the centre of Nottingham you'll find a space at St James Street and the Arndale Centre car park but Victoria Centre's got a few minutes wait at the York Street entrance and Trinity Square still very busy next update in ten minutes time. [Geoff Owen:] And we'll do the whole lot altogether the er traffic and the trains and planes in full every day on the county's favourite at ten past one. Good afternoon from Nottinghamshire's favourite radio station. At one o'clock it's the headlines this lunchtime it's announced that Calverton Colliery's to close before the end of the month. The police appeal for the public's help in identifying the voice of a girl who rung a Nottinghamshire hospital claiming she'd had a baby and a member of staff is suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. They're the headlines today the details from Alison Ford. [Alison Ford:] Calverton Colliery is to close in just over two weeks' time. The closure has been confirmed twenty four hours after British Coal announced the pit was to go into the review procedure and revealed that it's lost more than six million pounds in the last six months. Union leaders at the pit say they'll challenge the closure by taking legal action. Sarah Sturdy reports. [speaker005:] British Coal's Midlands Group Director John Longdon has recommended that Calverton should cease production by November the nineteenth. He says continuing heavy losses and falling markets have given him no option but to propose that the six hundred and forty man pit should close. The Union Leaders he met today at Calverton Miners Welfare say they'll challenge the closure through the pit review procedure. But even if that lasts the full nine months British Coal has the final say on whether the pit should be shut down. [Alison Ford:] Nottinghamshire police have released a recording of a girl they believed called the Kingsmill Hospital at Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby. They think it's the same teenager who's made at least a dozen calls to the police and a hospital in Lincolnshire since reporting the birth at the weekend. This report from Nigel Bell. [speaker006:] I was the one that killed it and I didn't. He was the one that got me pregnant. [Nigel Bell:] This is the voice of the girl that sometimes uses the name Cindy and sometimes Linda. She says she's fourteen and that the father of the child is her own dad. Acting Detective Superintendent Mick Cox says they realize the girl could be in danger but believe it's necessary to broadcast the recording. [Mick Cox:] This has been talked through but with both the Social Services and the the hospital and er we decided to take that chance. [Nigel Bell:] They've checked schools and housing estates in the Mansfield area but say they've no leads. Half a dozen officers are investigating the case but police forces across the East Midlands are on standby. Mick Cox is urging anyone who recognizes this voice to contact the police. There's a free phone number O eight hundred six two six nine nine nine. [speaker006:] Every time I've run away from home and then every time you lot have took me back home and then I end up getting pregnant. [Alison Ford:] At the James Bolger murder trial in Preston the jury has been told how two the two eleven year old defendants tormented an elderly woman shortly before they allegedly abducted James Bolger. They've denied abduction and murdering James also attempting to abduct another child. Kevin Bucket reports. [speaker006:] The court has been today hearing evidence from witnesses building up a picture of what the who defendants were doing in the hours before the alleged abduction of James Bolger. A qualified nurse Pamela Armstrong said that she and two other woman had been running a stall in the Bootle Strand shopping centre. At one point an elderly woman was looking at the display when the two defendants starting tormenting her. Miss Armstrong said the defendants were in some way prodding the woman from behind she swung round as if to hit the children with her bag and they ran off. Another witness Mrs Angela Higgins said she saw the defendants shouting and behaving stupidly. She said one of them spoke to her own four year old child. It's alleged that later in the day the defendants abducted James Bolger took him to a railway embankment and murdered him. The case is continuing. [Alison Ford:] A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. The probe by the County Council at Redoaks Training Centre in Rainworth follows a police investigation at Stone Cross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield. Rob Tomlinson reports. [Mick Cox:] Nottinghamshire County Council won't confirm what the latest allegations are about but it's been reported that they centre on fraud and sexual harassment at Redoaks. An inquiry is being conducted internally at the council run centre and police have not been called in. However two weeks ago they were called in to investigate claims of physical abuse at Stone Cross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield a warden run complex for mentally handicapped adults. Detectives were alerted by Central Nottinghamshire Health Care Trust and it's understood their inquiries will take some time. They say there is no link between that investigation and the County Council's probe into allegations at Redoaks. [Alison Ford:] You're listening to B B C Radio Nottingham news it's coming up to five past one. A Nottingham car salesman who went with two prostitutes aged fourteen and fifteen has been jailed for three years. Forty seven year old John House of Fairwell Drive in Bulwell denied having unlawful sexual intercourse with the girls but was found guilty at Nottingham Crown Court. Chris Throup reports. [Nigel Bell:] The jury at the trial heard that House's sessions with the two girls were arranged by nineteen year old Natalie Meadows who introduced them to prostitution. He drove them to fields in the Derbyshire countryside where the offences took place. House was arrested after the mother of the fifteen year old took down his car registration number. The car was traced to dealers in Nottingham where he'd worked for nine years. At Lincoln Crown Court today Judge Richard Hutchinson who'd adjourned the case for reports sentenced him to two consecutive eighteen month prison terms. Meadows of Hill Road in Baysford was found guilty of two charges of controlling prostitutes and two of aiding unlawful sex. She'll be sentenced at a later date. [Alison Ford:] A forty six year old Nottingham Museum assistant has been remanded in custody charged with the murder of her eighty year old mother over eighteen months ago. Patricia Gregg of Mews in the Meadows had surrendered herself to police yesterday morning before appearing before City Magistrates today. This report from Paula Boystones. [Louise:] Beatrice Gregg was found dead at her home in Close in March last year. Today a bail application was refused and Miss Gregg was remanded in custody for seven days. Last year an inquest was told how a milkman became suspicious when he noticed milk had not been taken in from the doorstep of the house. A post-mortem examination at the time showed she'd been hit on the head with a blunt instrument. Miss Gregg told detectives her mother had been waiting for the handyman to call at the time of her death. The man was never traced. After today's hearing Miss Gregg's solicitor Donald Worsley said he intended to make a bail application to a Judge in Chambers and if this failed he would then go to the High Court. [Alison Ford:] A hundred and thirty three Manchester United fans are appearing in court in Istanbul after trouble at a hotel. Thirty one others were held but escaped from custody. The British Consulate says some of the United supporters are likely to be charged and all of them will be held until after this evenings game against the Turkish champions. One Manchester United fan insisted he'd seen very few disturbances. [David:] Never been in trouble at all like and and I've certainly not seen any trouble. I've been out on the on the streets and the roads and we've had a few beers and I've not seen any trouble but the first I've heard of trouble was was this morning after breakfast in a nearby hotel and and by by the trouble that's been caused I don't know the details of it but I believe it's been quite intense really. [Alison Ford:] British and Irish Ministers have begun talks in Belfast on the political future of Northern Ireland. Before going into the meeting the Irish team spoke of a good deal of hope for peace and the Northern Ireland Secretary Sir Patrick Mayhew said all options remained open. Recorded crime in England and Wales rose by three point eight per cent in the year to June. Home Office figures put the total of offences at a record five point seven million but the rate of increase showed a sharp drop on the two previous years. John Silverman reports. [speaker001:] On the face of it the trend is encouraging. Recorded crime fell in eight police force areas the rate of increase in violent crime was significantly lower than the previous year and the rise in reported thefts was the smallest for four years. But within the statistics there are signs that the mobility of criminals is inflicting more crimes on rural areas than the cities and the amount of vehicle crime continues to cause concern. The Home Office Minister David Maclean said that despite some encouraging signs the Government would not become complacent on crime. [Alison Ford:] That's the news now and a look at the lunchtime sport here's John Shaw. [Geoff Owen:] Nottingham Forest are likely to stick with the same team that beats Notts County for tonight's match against Millwall at the City ground the London club are currently eleventh in the First Division Forest will go above them if the Reds win. Notts County striker Rob Matthews returns for the Magpies Reserves against Wolves at Meadow Lane tonight Robbie Turner will also play. Kick-off is at seven o'clock. Mansfield Town Caretaker Manager Bill Bearden has given his whole squad the day off to try to stop the spread of the flu virus. It hit it hit Ian Stringfellow last week and caused Nicky Platten now to pull out at the last minute last night. Manchester United have selection problems for this afternoons European Cup Tie against the Turkish side. Gary Pallister is already ruled out and there's a doubt concerning Brian Robson who has a sinus infection. If Robson doesn't play then Roy Keen will take his place. And an announcement will be made later today about the venue for the World Cup qualifier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland which is scheduled for Belfast on November the seventeenth. The match may have to be moved because of the recent violence in the province. [Alison Ford:] And the main points of the news again this lunchtime. A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. Nottinghamshire police have released a recording of a girl they believe called the Kingsmill Hospital at Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby and Calverton Colliery is to close in just over two weeks' time. The announcement was confirmed twenty four hours after British Coal said the pit was to go into the review procedure. Union leaders there say they'll challenge the procedure by taking legal action. [Geoff Owen:] Ten past one traffic and trains and planes at lunchtime. On the trains British Rail say no problems all doing find East Midlands Airport all okay as well let's listen for a space now with Annie Smith. [Jonathan Clays:] Good news if you're making you way to park at the Walken Street car park in the centre of Mansfield the attendant tells me they've got plenty of space. On the park and ride sites the Forest is busy but I'm told there's parking room still available and there's room on the Queens Drive site and ample space at the Racecourse just follow the yellow signs for that particular site. If you want to park in Nottingham city centre there's space at the Arndale Centre car park that's at the bottom of Maid Marion Way or you could even made your way to the Stoney Street car park you'll find that in the Leys Market. Trinity Square still proving to be very busy so expect a few minutes wait if you want to get yourself parked in there and have a couple of minutes wait if you want to get into the Victoria Centre that's at the York Street entrance. Finally taking a look at traffic in and around Nottingham's roads the vehicles I can see are moving steadily. Annie Smith Radio Nottingham Travel. [Geoff Owen:] On the motorways no problems at the moment as far as we know. The A Six O Nine Trowell Road there's resurfacing taking place there between Arlston Drive and Burnwood Drive so watch it. On the A One near to Markham Moor north bound lane closures expected now until five o'clock tomorrow. On the A Six Twenty there's railway bridge work taking place between and Welham extra lights there. And problems still in Baysford cos of the closure of David Lane and Southwick Street diversions in operation there long delays expected. At Collington Chapel Lane is closed until Friday cos they're putting a new sewer in there and traffic's being diverted there along Main Street and at Totton there's roadworks on Nottingham Road at the junction with Attenborough Lane delays likely there especially at busy times that'll do us for now we'll update the traffic for you again in half an hours time. It's Radio Nottingham F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five Nottinghamshire's favourite station with the weather forecast for the rest of the afternoon. Staying cloudy in most places although a few bright intervals at possible and apart from the odd chance of a light shower it should stay dry milder than of late top temperature eleven celsius fifty two fahrenheit mist and patchy fog will form tonight and drizzle is likely in places too the overnight low eight celsius forty six fahrenheit mist and fog clearing slowly tomorrow a dull start it should brighten up later on though sunny intervals developing the high tomorrow thirteen degrees. [music] The Chairman of the Board and er You've Got Me Dangling on a String it's radio Nottingham it's Geoff Owen here till two this afternoon. Dennis McCarthy on Afternoon Special from two till half four Alan Clifford at tea time in for John Simons from half four until seven o'clock at tea time later. Radio Nottingham sport on from seven and then John Tanton from ten until midnight to come on the county's favourite. Er Kids' County on to our second one for today Rita's on from Mansfield hello Rita. [Alison Ford:] Hello. [Geoff Owen:] How are you? [Alison Ford:] All right. [Geoff Owen:] Good oh and what's happening to you then today? [Alison Ford:] Well we're just watching Coronation Street she asked me to turn it off. [Geoff Owen:] She's what? [Alison Ford:] Says stop watching Coronation Street and listen to Radio Nottingham. [Geoff Owen:] What you can do both at the same time can you? [Alison Ford:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] Yes well of course you can Rita you know have two things there together it's okay it's fine. Er the clues for our second Kids' County for today are these ones, It's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood it's long. There it has barbed wire around it it's made of wood and it's long Rita. [Alison Ford:] Is it Major Oak? [Geoff Owen:] Major Oak no no no. [Alison Ford:] I didn't think it would be. [Geoff Owen:] No it could have been though couldn't it? Well you can go back and watch that thing now can't you? [Alison Ford:] Well I'll watch for come back. [Geoff Owen:] Aye? [Alison Ford:] coming back [Geoff Owen:] [LAUGHTER] [Alison Ford:] or whatever her name is. [Geoff Owen:] Bye Rita [Alison Ford:] Bye. [Geoff Owen:] Bye bye. Katherine is on from Chilwell hello Katherine. [Jonathan Clays:] Hello. [Geoff Owen:] Hello how are you? [Jonathan Clays:] Fine thank you. [Geoff Owen:] And what end of Chilwell are you at? [Jonathan Clays:] Erm we're on the traffic lights where all the work is Lane. [Geoff Owen:] Oh are you down there is it hell? [Jonathan Clays:] Oh terrible awful. [Geoff Owen:] Is it he every morning it's hell. [Jonathan Clays:] Every morning you can't get the car in [Geoff Owen:] What's it like now? [Jonathan Clays:] Just the same all the workmen are there can't cross the road [Geoff Owen:] Can't you? [Jonathan Clays:] Can't hear no it terrible. [Geoff Owen:] Oh and can you hear it rumbling all the time? [Jonathan Clays:] Oh yes the jack hammering. [Geoff Owen:] Wobbling about? [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Geoff Owen:] There and you're si and you're sitting there on your sofa and you get this strange rumbling [Jonathan Clays:] That's right near the window yes and all the dust is coming in we've got to put up with it till Christmas. [Geoff Owen:] Until when? [Jonathan Clays:] Till about Christmas. [Geoff Owen:] Ah. [Jonathan Clays:] December it's not going to finish till December. [Geoff Owen:] But you'll be able to get all the tinsel out won't you when it goes. [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Geoff Owen:] What do you think about this statue and all these trees we've been talking about the ones around by Marks and Spencers yes? [Jonathan Clays:] Well I was thinking maybe we could bring it to Beeston with the other one. [Geoff Owen:] Do you think so what [tape change] [Jonathan Clays:] Match up one each end. [Geoff Owen:] I like that one that's in Beeston of the old man sitting on the bench there. [Jonathan Clays:] Oh that's nice but people keep knocking little bits off it. [Geoff Owen:] Yeah. [Jonathan Clays:] Knocked his nose and knocked his foot. [Geoff Owen:] It's a bit fragile isn't it I suppose. [Jonathan Clays:] Yes it's a shame. [Geoff Owen:] Little little extremities. [Jonathan Clays:] That's right. [Geoff Owen:] So you'll have it in Beeston will you Katherine? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes [Geoff Owen:] Maybe you could present it to those workmen. [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] [Geoff Owen:] You know when they've when they've finished. [Jonathan Clays:] That's a good idea. [Geoff Owen:] You could give it to them couldn't you? [Jonathan Clays:] They could have a little roundabout they're going to have there. [Geoff Owen:] It's a little pressie. What about the trees though do you think they should take the trees down? [Jonathan Clays:] No I don't think they should no I think they've been there quite a while it's a shame to. [Geoff Owen:] Cos they're quite old trees those aren't they? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes yes they should leave them really. [Geoff Owen:] They want to put up some of these little spindly poky trees. [Jonathan Clays:] Oh no. [Geoff Owen:] You know the ones that that pop up everywhere. [Jonathan Clays:] No they should leave those there really they look [Geoff Owen:] You think so [Jonathan Clays:] They look quite nice. [Geoff Owen:] All right then well I'll get the I'll get the two councillors on in a minute. [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] Okay. [] [Geoff Owen:] And we'll see what they have to say and if you feel so moved you can ring back and shout at them Katherine. [Jonathan Clays:] Yes thank you. [Geoff Owen:] All right er Kids' County here's the clues these ones, It's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood it's long. There it's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood and it's long. [Jonathan Clays:] I was going to say Major Oak. [Geoff Owen:] Oh Katherine. [Jonathan Clays:] I know. [Geoff Owen:] That's what Rita just said can't you think of anything else? [Jonathan Clays:] I can't think of anything else either no. [Geoff Owen:] You nana. [Jonathan Clays:] My husband really thought it would be Major Oak. [Geoff Owen:] Are these workmen outside of your house are they the ones with the er with the trousers hanging half way down their bum? [Jonathan Clays:] Oh yeah there's about twelve of them yeah when they bend [LAUGHTER] down their trousers fall down []. [Geoff Owen:] They're all that sort of are they. Well er off to have a look at some workmen's bums out the window and have a nice afternoon Katherine. [Jonathan Clays:] Okay thank you bye. [Geoff Owen:] Tarrah bye bye. Er Kids' County I'll give you some more clues these might help, It's got tunnels it's metal round the edge it's green. There it's got tunnels and it's metal around the edge and it's green three four three four three four to ring for a bash at Kids' County and er we know it's not the Major Oak cos that's what they've both guessed so far all right. Here's the clues then all together then this lot, It's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood it's long it's got tunnels it's metal round the edge it's green. There somewhere around Nottinghamshire something around Nottinghamshire what are they describing there three four three four three four to call for a bash at Kids' County don't leave it too long before you call and er if you want to talk to the councillors about the leaf stem and trees you can call as well. [music] There Art Garfunkel that is and I Believe When I Fall in Love it'll be Forever. It's Radio Nottingham it's one twenty two erm Muriel Poole and erm what's this or twin Alan from the Stockhill Estate happy birthday have fun lots of love to you from Christine and from Derek and from Karl as well so have a lovely day. Er David Wilson from Booton happy birthday love from Susan and Andrew and Amanda and from Adam as well. A budgie lost lost from the Lenton area yesterday tea time at six o'clock from Sherwin Road it's green and it's called Freddie seven nine one six five six to ring seven nine one six five six if you can help there. Er a dog lost from Bulwell on Sunday it's long haired it's a Jack Russell and it's white and black it's female no collar to call if you can help here. Er cat lost from Newthorpe Common yesterday it's black and white called Tasha and it's female one year old. A letter erm from New Baysford it says [reading] Two weeks ago my car was nicked in Illkeston in the Pimlico car park between the hours of two and five whilst shopping. Could you please announce this on your show. [] Well all right then it's er a red Escort Laser with blue graphics and it's bright rosso red in colour and it's C and there's some slight rust on the driver's from wing and there's red paint on the exhaust and it's grey inside. If you've seen it somewhere then can you call a reward of twenty five pounds offered to the person who can advise where the car is payment will be upon receipt of retrieving the vehicle. It's come from Miss Dawn who wants her car back it's a red Escort Laser it's bright rosso red and it's got a bit of rust on the driver's front wing and red paint on the exhaust. If er someone's taken it for a ride and dumped it near you then can you call Nottingham and it's Dawn who wants her car back anything I can do you for three four three four three four is the number to ring. If you want to shout about the leaf stem and the trees then call now. Talking to two of the Nottingham councillors who are rather agitated about it all and talk to you as well give us a ring. [speaker005:] Afternoon Special this afternoon we have a couple of interesting guests to meet George Hamilton the fourth will be with us he's involved in the tribute to Patsie Clyne Show and Esther Rantzen who's here for the Child Line campaign. Funny Man is the competition and we have a new pre-release video as a prize and there's a phone-in and you can take part and have a chat on the air Afternoon Special this afternoon just after the two o'clock news. [speaker006:] Forest are at home tonight it's Millwall who try and stop Stammon and we of course will be there too. Tommy Cooper talking at length about when he ruled at the Den and we'll be talking to about his Norwegian career and his arrival at the City ground. And apart from the Bohemian Rhapsody news of the rest of the European football tonight and we have the double attacking spearhead of Colin Fray and Martin Fisher at the City ground and you listening to the classiest football cover on Radio Nottingham from five past seven. [Geoff Owen:] Now er over the last few days we've been er talking quite a lot about er that statue you know the one that's down by er down by Marks and Spencers that's the best way to describe where it is the leaf stand the er the one that looks like a tulip and water dribbles down the side of it. Well they want to move it they want to develop the area and er now they're talking as well about taking the trees out from around there too which is really getting up people's noses it would seem. Councillor David Poole is on hello. [Mick Cox:] Hello. [Geoff Owen:] Thanks for coming on David now you've hated this thing ever since it's gone up haven't you? [Mick Cox:] Yes yes er and and the price it cost the er tax payers and rate payers of Nottingham in the first place to put it there yes. [Geoff Owen:] tell us what's going to happen to the area then David. [Mick Cox:] Well it's going to be revamped as er as you probably know that part of the City is being slowly revamped er and this is one which is going to be done in about the middle of next year. Er it's going to have er a circular area with benches and for shoppers can relax and everything but er unfortunately as you say there's going to be three mature trees in the centre of St Peters Square will be removed as part of the opening up of the area. [Geoff Owen:] It seems that this is what's annoying people the most though [Mick Cox:] Mm yes. [Geoff Owen:] lots of people really couldn't give a stuff about the the statue there. We've had a few people coming on and saying they want it to stay there or they want to leave it there but it's the trees that's really annoying people. Why have they got to go David? [Mick Cox:] Well that's the question I've been asking in committees er because I'm I brought this up when they did nicely when they took all the trees away from down er Long Row on the High Street. There was a lovely tree outside old Boots shop there they took all them away and put these little ones down the middle and I also brought it up when they did Weekday Cross they took the trees which had only been there a few years they took them all down and put put some others up some little twiggly things you know. Er I did ask the question as well what what's going to happen to these trees or what happens to these trees when the City Council removes them and I've never got an answer yet and I'm going to keep asking somebody some day will give me an answer. I mean are the just destroyed or are they removed and reused again we don't know. [Geoff Owen:] All right we've got er Councillor Stuart Argyle in here as well Stuart good afternoon. [Nigel Bell:] Er hello Geoff. [Geoff Owen:] Hello erm so tell us what your stance on all of this is you're furious about the trees aren't you? [Nigel Bell:] Well I'm concerned Geoff as a Ward Councillor I read about this in the paper that the Environment Committee which David is on er agreed to this scheme which is I'm all for having squares in the city centre and places for people to sit and enjoy and I'm ambivalent about the leaf stem. I understand it's been offered several homes so that would be nice. But I am concerned for the three trees that David has just mentioned being removed. I need to know that it's necessary to remove all those trees I've been told all sorts of things like they're in pots and they'll become pot bound they're growing outwards they might fall down they might fracture mains they block off the er view of the church well I think they're a nice asset in the city centre. This is a city without a lot of parks in its centre only the Castle and er not a lot of trees not mature trees so er er I need to know that it's necessary to move these trees. [Geoff Owen:] All right David do you still think it's necessary to move them? [Mick Cox:] Er Stuart Argyle on I also say that they are removing one tree outside the former Horse and Groom public house as well. [Nigel Bell:] I didn't know that. [Mick Cox:] They are er Stuart but they replace replacing by eleven new trees to be planted eight among the seating area on Albert Street and three on erm the footway outside the Horse and Groom. [Geoff Owen:] But are those trees those that the little er the little spindly ones what do they call them engineers trees don't they because they don't take much looking after. [Mick Cox:] Yes we were told they're going to be trees like that because they've had a lot of trouble with pigeons roosting in the erm the mature trees and it's impossible for people to sit on the benches underneath cos of er pigeon mess. [Geoff Owen:] Well well if [Nigel Bell:] coming on [Geoff Owen:] Yeah do Stuart [Nigel Bell:] pigeons. The pigeons are of cause er er er a cause of debate in the city centre some people like pigeons some don't some say there are far too many pigeons. And it's a bit of a nonsense to say that pigeons perch in trees you may see an odd pigeon sort of settle in a tree but not for long. Pigeons are derived from the Rock Dove and which nested and perched in cliff side and buildings are the nearest thing so I the pigeons aren't really an argument and you do if you want proper birds in the city centre such as thrushes and blackbirds and even sparrows you need real trees to encourage them and the these trees are fairly mature and helpful. [Geoff Owen:] If you want to come in on any of this three four three four three four you can call now. Mary's on from Baysford hello Mary. [Louise:] Hello Geoff. [Geoff Owen:] What have you got to say then you want to talk to David Poole. [Louise:] Yes I do well firstly I do believe the statue should go. [Geoff Owen:] Why? [Louise:] Erm I just don't like it I think it's horrible. [Geoff Owen:] Mhm is is that the same for everything else around the city that you don't like you're quite happy to just knock it down would you and take it away somewhere else? [Louise:] No just that one. [Geoff Owen:] Just the statue okay what about the trees around there? [Louise:] The trees we should fight like mad to save them. [Geoff Owen:] Mhm cos they've been there for ages haven't they Mary don't you think? [Louise:] Yeah and we need more green in the city not less. [Geoff Owen:] And do and do you think erm do you think it's justified to take the trees down because you're going to put up some some new little ones in their place? [Louise:] No definitely not. [Geoff Owen:] And do you care if the pigeons sit in the trees? [Louise:] No. [Geoff Owen:] No all right. [Louise:] They don't sit in trees anyway. [Geoff Owen:] No tell me what er tell me what you want to say to Councillor Poole? [Louise:] The other thing is it's a question to Councillor Poole I mean why should the people of Nottingham give any credibility to anything said by someone who is quoted in the Daily Sport of all newspapers as saying and I quote, Surely the County Council could erect something more in keeping with the City's heritage like a little old lady in a shawl. Now as far as I'm concerned and many people this remark is ageist and sexist and really what has it got to do with Nottingham heritage? [Geoff Owen:] All right David is that what [Louise:] I've no just a [Geoff Owen:] Okay carry on [Louise:] Albert Ball or William Booth or if he really wants a statue of a lady why not Maid Marian in a lace shawl? [Geoff Owen:] All right then David Poole did you say that really? [Mick Cox:] I said that we ought to er somebody asked me er from one of the national papers which ought to be put in place there and I did suggest that we ought to have a statue like just been mentioned to somebody from Beeston they've got a nice man on a bench there. I suggested putting an old lady sitting on a bench with a lace shawl erm er sculpture of so that it represents er Nottingham lace and etcetera and I said it would look more attractive and catch people's eye than what's there at the present. [Geoff Owen:] So it was it was the lace that you wanted emphasizing rather than a [Mick Cox:] Yes [Geoff Owen:] little old lady on a bench? [Mick Cox:] That's it. [Geoff Owen:] Oh I see Mary is that any better. [Louise:] Er no. [Geoff Owen:] Oh no okay. [Louise:] No certainly not it's not I mean a little old lady yes the lace has something to do with Nottingham Nottingham's heritage we all know that. A little old lady has not. Maid Marian has in lace. [Geoff Owen:] So perhaps perhaps Maid Marian with some lace on? [Louise:] Certainly. [Geoff Owen:] I knew I knew you'd be happy. Well Mary we'll wait and see thanks for calling on. Er Dorothy's on from Carlton hello Dorothy. [David:] Hello. [Geoff Owen:] Hello. What have you got to say about it all Dorothy? [David:] Well firstly I don't like the tree the leaf and I honestly think that it should be place as a permanent position in the foyer of County Hall as a permanent reminder to all councillors on the waste of public tax payers' money. [Geoff Owen:] Wouldn't it be a greater waste of money though now having got the thing there though to shift it out the way completely Dorothy? [David:] Well it's better than going in the river like you suggested yesterday where it's hidden and forgotten permanent reminder. [Geoff Owen:] Well I'll tell you tell you who suggested that yesterday now let me have a look it was one of the councillors wasn't it said lob it in the bottom of the arboretum lake it was er Conservative Councillor Charles Clarke who said the only suitable place for that daft leaf is in the middle of the arboretum lake. But he says again that we shouldn't move the trees simply for something which is meant to fit in nature doesn't always fit in. What do you think Dorothy should the trees go as well? [David:] I think life of trees is very precious and should remain precious. [Geoff Owen:] So so we keep the trees there? [David:] We keep the trees erm they're on about the trees are mature well my suggestion is there's a lot of councillors that are very mature and really they could do far better getting eleven spindly new younger councillors to make these decisions on behalf of all the public tax payers in Nottingham. [Geoff Owen:] So er you'd like to lop the councillors as well would you? [David:] Well I think the public ought to have more interests in these things that are happening in Nottingham. [Geoff Owen:] Mm well we're inviting people to call [David:] Really important. [Geoff Owen:] people to call now three four three four three four if you want to come in on this. Erm Mrs Moody from Hucknall thinks that er that leaf stem thing ought to be off in a garden somewhere. Er Councillor Poole it seems that nobody wants to shift the trees. [Mick Cox:] That's correct yes and I don't blame them and er if Stuart Argyle thinks the same way we'll we'll certainly er see what we can do about pressing for keeping these trees. I mean myself has mentioned it now in committee but er I was a lone voice you see that's the that's the trouble when you've got fifteen other members and and they don't seem to be bothered about trees. [Geoff Owen:] What should people do if if they they want to protest about it further David? [Mick Cox:] Well they could address their letters to myself Councillor David Poole or Councillor Stuart Argyle to the Council House erm the suggestion you know er their the thoughts the thoughts on this what er they could er erm help us in our campaign and also about the leaf stem as well if they want to write to me at the Council House suggesting and I mean proper places to where it should go because that's really up to County Council but er at least if I had some suggestions we can pass them over to the County Council where where it could go. [Geoff Owen:] But Stuart you'd welcome that as well would you people to write to you? [David:] Yes certainly. A lady has just said one of your earlier callers has just said that Council are out of touch well we shouldn't be out of touch and that is this exercise you have two councillors on here from different parties showing a concern for the trees. I'm not so bothered about the leaf stem. What does interest me about the leaf stem she suggested it should be put in the foyer of County Hall well when Nottingham becomes a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made into an hotel perhaps it would be a bit unfortunate for the visitors to have the leaf stem er when they book in. [Geoff Owen:] That's going to be er in the future perhaps or not but er the problem now is er is those trees. Let's get er a couple of more people's er opinions on Peter's on from West Bridgford hello Peter. Yeah hello good morning Geoff. You know we we've heard a lot about this leaf bud structure and what to replace it with but since this is Nottingham and this centre of lace why couldn't they put something there like a loom or something sculptured to look like a loom? My second point is the trees. Now I'm an ex-gardener I'm a horticulturist it take roughly about forty years for trees to reach maturity it doesn't say much for our planners if they plan to put those trees there and then now are gonna have them up again it sounds much like change for changes sake and that that it basically my comment. Why can't they plan for a longer term for those trees? You you you know as as a gardener then about these er these little trees that they'll be replaced with these little spindly ones Yes. can they grow as big can they grow to to look as attractive as these old maturer trees that are there now? No no er erm well er there is Prunus that's a plum I mean a cherry that grows up and various ones like that the only trouble is with these type of things they can be more of a nuisance than the trees that you do have now because those trees growing up those spindly ones as you put it erm some gardeners call them or whatever name they use I but the trouble is bits die in the centre of those and they tend to drop down and they can be in time more far more of a nuisance than the trees they've got now which seems to me quite suitable. Mm well thanks for your thoughts Peter echoing what everybody else has said and er thanks for coming on telling us about the new trees as well. Stuart that's the point isn't it that they're not going to look as good? [David:] Well you've only got to go onto Longrow Smithy Row and see those trees there they're like toy town trees. Peop they're like they're like umbrellas that need unfolding and people say oh they'll spread out and they'll develop foliage well there're similar sorts of trees on Castlegate and they've been there about three years they've done nothing in fact they're dying. And er [drawn out] you know there is this attitude that nature it has been said nature is untidy well nature by its very definition is untidy. But you know you see those tr trees outside St Peters Square they look good the church looks good framed behind them in the country they're trees country churches are surrounded by trees and they look better for it they frame buildings. Yeah it won't look so good if they they put those funny little trees up there. [Geoff Owen:] All right Barbara is on from Chilwell. Hi Barbara. Hello Geoff. What are your thoughts then? My thoughts the leaf stem should never have been there in the first place it was a waste of money. What do they do with it now then? Whatever they like bottom of the River Trent if you like but it would be very going off the subject and I've only got a minute or two to spare but what someone pointed out to me that terrible monstrosity outside the Theatre Royal subway and every time I pass I fume inwardly. I've been meaning to write to The Post letter page about it for several years. It's an insult to feminism and I'd like to know how much that cost out of the rates. All right yeah well let's erm le let's stick to talking about the leaf stem for now cos we don't want to go on er slagging off every bit of art that's around the city centre do we Barbara otherwise... is it art over the Royal Centre we'd be here all day. That's not art it's horrible Geoff insult to You don't like that either. Insult to womanhood it's an ugly monstrosity. All right then well I've seen people come up and stop and stare aghast at it. Well er we'll leave that for another day now Barbara. Do you think do you think about the trees the trees should stay there or what? Yes I do yes. And what do you think about this idea of turning it into like a little piazza there for everyone to sit out on do you like that idea? Well yes anything like that especially as it should be the shopping area. Yeah. Yes. If you had if you had some seat there though do you think the seats would be nice under some trees? Of course yes I know it encourages the pigeons and they make a mess but anything to beautify the inner city. All right Barbara thanks for coming on. Thank you Geoff. We'll talk about the one by the Theatre another day and see what people think about that. Er Freda's on hello Freda. [Alison Ford:] Oh I'm here again. [Geoff Owen:] Oh right what's up? [Alison Ford:] Now now then Geoff we don't go to Nottingham to look at trees we don't go to Nottingham to look at the countryside we go to see the shops and spend money. And that er leaf was absolutely diabolical. [Geoff Owen:] Mhm. [Alison Ford:] Anybody can can spend other people's money and and as for that lady saying we want the young people on the Council good heavens the young ones [LAUGHTER] would spend it quicker than the old ones []. [Geoff Owen:] So do you think the trees aren't important then are you not bothered about them. [Alison Ford:] I'm not bothered about them you've got tre you can go in the countryside and see that you've got trees at well a lot of us have got them outside our own houses. [Geoff Owen:] Do you not think that I mean the people who were saying keep them there they're saying it adds something to what's in the city centre do you not agree? [Alison Ford:] I'm I'm not er well if they're going to er if they're going to lose their leaves like they are doing now people are slipping on them aren't they. [Geoff Owen:] Mm maybe the odd one or two will you know Freda [Alison Ford:] Yes yes well leave the trees where they are but but that diabolical thing well art today I don't know what they think art is. [Geoff Owen:] You liked you like nice holes with flowers and vases on and things [Alison Ford:] I like the I like the I like the old the old art we used to have in the olden days mind you I like everything that's old er that's why I like you Geoff cos you're old. [Geoff Owen:] Yeah well I'm catching you up Freda [Alison Ford:] [LAUGHTER] [Geoff Owen:] Er thanks for coming on. [Alison Ford:] Well we're going to Nottingham to spend money. [Geoff Owen:] All right then [Alison Ford:] Bye bye. [Geoff Owen:] Tarrah there I think I think we'd better leave it there otherwise we are going to be here all day. Er give a final word to David Poole. [Mick Cox:] Yeah well on what people have said I I think that er there's a possibility that er if Stuart and myself get together with the officers concerned that we if these trees are pruned and trimmed as they they're saying they're over overgrown at the moment surely that would cut them down in size and if they're regular pruned every so many years they won't they won't be a nuisance I don't think in future years. [Geoff Owen:] All right then er a final word to Stuart as well. [David:] Er yeah thank you yeah the trees really do matter. I mean David's talking about the leaf stem I couldn't care less about the leaf stem I'm with most people I understand that Councillor Barry Jackson's offered to look after it in his garden cos he likes it and he's welcome to do that. But er Nottingham's er city that's proud of its nature it's not generally realized that there's about a hundred nature reserves in the City of Nottingham maintained by the city of the Notts Wild Life Trust and er this is great on the outskirts but in the city centre there's too little nature in it. There's only the castle grounds that's a park in the city centre you've got to pay a quid to go in there on Saturdays and Sundays and I think these trees really matter I am concerned and I'm going to ask questions about them and I will talk to David about it as well although the leaf stem he can keep himself. [LAUGHTER] [Geoff Owen:] [LAUGHTER] well we've got people on both sides of the political fence agreeing here for one. Erm if you want to er to make your voice heard about it then write them letters write letters into your councillors erm and er and let them know what you think or you can write them to me and I'll pass them on. I'll say thanks very much to Councillor Stuart Argyle for coming in our thanks as well to David Poole for joining us on the phone thanks David. [Mick Cox:] Thanking you [David:] Thank you. [Geoff Owen:] I'll leave you for now it's Radio Nottingham it's seventeen minutes to two. I think all we can do after that is er have a Frank this is er Frank Sinatra and Brazil. [music] There Frank Sinatra that is and er Brazil it's Radio Nottingham fourteen minutes to two bit late with everything today thanks for all your calls on that. Erm more calls than we could cope with in the end for and er see what happens to it and keep in touch write to your councillors and let them know what you think or write to me and I'll pass the letters on. June from Mansfield's on hello June. [Jonathan Clays:] Hello. [Geoff Owen:] How are you? [Jonathan Clays:] Fine thank you. [Geoff Owen:] Marvellous and what's been happening with you today? [Jonathan Clays:] Erm I've been out shopping today getting wood to put a floor in the cellar. [Geoff Owen:] You what? [Jonathan Clays:] Putting a floor into the make a pantry. [Geoff Owen:] In the cellar? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] So you can store all your wine down there is it? [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] [Geoff Owen:] Or your beer and your booze. [Jonathan Clays:] Yes yes that's it home-made wines and things. [Geoff Owen:] Oh are you is that what you're going to do? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] Have you started making them already or [Jonathan Clays:] Oh yes been making it a long time. [Geoff Owen:] And how many bottles have you got then June? [Jonathan Clays:] Oh we've still got them in the demijohns yet [Geoff Owen:] Have you? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] I often wonder about this er a demijohn would imply that's half a john wouldn't it? [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] [Geoff Owen:] so can you can you get one that's twice as big that's called a john? [Jonathan Clays:] I'm no yes I think you can actually. [Geoff Owen:] Can you? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes yes you can get them. [Geoff Owen:] I've never heard of that before. [Jonathan Clays:] No but you can get them big. [Geoff Owen:] You can get a john can you you can get a big john? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [Geoff Owen:] I see oh er fireworks winner Mrs from Eastwood heard the firework noise just then so she's off to Alton Towers with the family to see the fireworks stop calling for that now. Tracey's on from Radford next hello Tracey. [speaker005:] Hello. [Geoff Owen:] You all right? [speaker005:] Yes fine thanks. [Geoff Owen:] Good we're doing family things today we had erm we had why these hard times are making the families pull closer together on earlier on and we're all er looking after each other a lot more so I want a thirty seconds worth of family things today for Loot at Lunchtime. Tell me about your family Tracey. [speaker005:] Married got a husband got three children three boys Daniel Ben and Thomas. [Geoff Owen:] Mhm how old? [speaker005:] Erm six and a half nearly three and nearly one. [Geoff Owen:] I can hear is that Thomas we can hear shouting? [speaker005:] No that's Ben that's the one that's nearly three. [Geoff Owen:] Oh is it? [speaker005:] Yes he's playing. [Geoff Owen:] Yeah where's the little one? [speaker005:] In bed. [Geoff Owen:] In bed asleep? [speaker005:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] Just how you like them. [speaker005:] That's right eldest one [Geoff Owen:] But you don't [speaker005:] at school. [Geoff Owen:] You don't know what they're thinking about though do you? [speaker005:] No. [Geoff Owen:] Thirty seconds worth of family things I'll put June on from Mansfield first cos June's out champ are you ready? [Jonathan Clays:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] Here we go. [Jonathan Clays:] House home baby nappy naughty cot bed bath rattle crib brother sister aunty uncle mum dad grandpa stories boys girls hats coats shoes gloves smiles frowns tears joy meals wheels cards games Christmas Easter church love holidays chores outings cleaning carpet tables sofas chairs bedtime stories prayers books baking cooking pastry cakes bread sweets fireworks crackers birthday treats parties smi theatre flicks panto tricks magic shows Punch and Judy swim dance skip. [Geoff Owen:] Ah you got sixty two June [Jonathan Clays:] Oh my goodness [Geoff Owen:] Oh my stars sixty two you got that's not a bad score that is it? Should be all right Tracey from Radford's going to try and knock the [LAUGHTER] smile off you face [] aren't you Tracey? [speaker005:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] You've got sixty two to beat thirty seconds worth of things to do with families and your time starts now. [speaker005:] Brother brother-in-law sister sister-in-law aunty uncle grandma granddad great grandma great granddad mother-in-law father-in-law niece nephews cousins children babies teenagers family car family house family outing family entertainment family birthdays weddings anniversaries Christmas Easter grandchildren mamas papas granddads dadas nan nanas children's toys children's parties children's clothes coat jumpers vest trousers socks shoes dress cardigan birthday parties toys cars rattles crisps family tree family car. [Geoff Owen:] Tracey? [speaker005:] Yes. [Geoff Owen:] Your content was good but you were lacking pace I think forty eight you got so I want the weather forecast from you next all right? [speaker005:] Oh. [Geoff Owen:] Hang on the line don't put the phone down and June from Mansfield sixty two gives you a list of prizes numbers between one and ten choose three of them. [Jonathan Clays:] Erm one. [Geoff Owen:] Number one is some Turbaco Chilli Nods in tubes. [Jonathan Clays:] One? [Geoff Owen:] Er yes. [Jonathan Clays:] Er what what else have I have I had five? [Geoff Owen:] This is a new list today it's a brand spanking new one. [Jonathan Clays:] Oh five. [Geoff Owen:] Number five is er a mug Radio Nottingham new style [Jonathan Clays:] I've already got one. [Geoff Owen:] Have you well have another one get a set. Another one? [Jonathan Clays:] Erm seven. [Geoff Owen:] Number seven loads and loads and loads and loads of this moist toilet tissue cos we're trying to get rid of it all so you've got the [LAUGHTER] lot []. [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [] [Geoff Owen:] I'll talk to you tomorrow okay? [Jonathan Clays:] Erm I'm not in tomorrow I'm in on Friday. [Geoff Owen:] Oh are you well you'll have to come back on Friday then and we'll find somebody else to take you on tomorrow. [Jonathan Clays:] [LAUGHTER] right oh [] [Geoff Owen:] Okay tarrah [Jonathan Clays:] Right bye [Geoff Owen:] Bye bye. Hey why aren't you in tomorrow? [Jonathan Clays:] I'm at er Chesterfield doing the er [Geoff Owen:] Oh of course [Jonathan Clays:] charity market. [Geoff Owen:] Well that's a good enough excuse and good luck with it tomorrow. [Jonathan Clays:] All right thank you. [Geoff Owen:] Bye bye. [Jonathan Clays:] Bye. [Geoff Owen:] Loot at Lunchtime back tomorrow then ten to one quarter to oneish listen in then we'll give you the qualifying question. Gracious me it's ten to two now yakking on a lot today er Beverley Craven this is and er Love Scenes we'll get er chunk three of Nottinghamshire's Big Bang on before two. Beverley Craven that is and er Love Scenes it's Radio Nottingham six minutes to two. Er trains are all okay say British Rail no problems there no problems at the airport two motorways are all fine as well. Er delays problems still in Baysford cos of the closure of David Lane and Southwick Street diversions in operation there. Chapel Lane at Coddington is closed until Friday and at Totton there's roadworks on Nottingham Road at the junction with Attenborough Lane delays are likely especially in busy times. Will update the traffic for you throughout the afternoon and a full service at tea time Alan Clifford on from half four till seven o'clock. F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five the weather forecast for the rest of the day. From Tracey from Radford off you go. [speaker005:] Okay staying cloudy for most of the day should stay dry patchy fog will form overnight with a little drizzle. Tomorrow should brighten up with sunny intervals and the outlook for Friday is mainly dry with sunny spells. [Geoff Owen:] Marvellous Tracey absolutely marvellous. Er put the next bit on for me save me the job say Nottinghamshire's Big Bang. [speaker005:] Nottinghamshire's Big Bang. [Geoff Owen:] Fireworks. [speaker005:] Fireworks. [Geoff Owen:] Day three. [speaker005:] Day three. [Geoff Owen:] Bye. [speaker005:] Good bye. [music] [speaker006:] The Trading Standards Department of the County Council is responsible for legal controls on fireworks. In particular that fireworks comply with the British Standard that people register that they are keeping fireworks retailers and wholesalers so that we can go and inspect the storage conditions er and that people obey the law by not selling fireworks to people under the age of sixteen. [Geoff Owen:] That's John Nottinghamshire's Assistant Chief Trading Standards Officer. It's his department's job to make sure the law's being applied when it comes to fireworks. [speaker006:] The requirement i is that th when they are stored in the erm shops they're stored in safe conditions. That means they are stored in in containers which the public haven't got access to and away from any possibility of er naked flames or any other methods of ignition getting to them. [Geoff Owen:] Mike is an Assistant Divisional Officer for Nottinghamshire Fire Brigade. He'd like to see everybody going to public bonfires instead of having private ones. [Mick Cox:] In my opinion er and probably a lot of fire officers' opinions as well bonfires in private houses are no longer necessary. But i if while we've got them we will still be there we will still be called to put them out and one of these days we'll be dealing with bonfires when somebody's house is on fire and we need to be there instead. Er with the possibility of er well horrific situation developing at that I wouldn't like particularly to talk about. [Geoff Owen:] So how do Trading Standards make sure that people aren't selling fireworks to those under age? [speaker006:] We will try and take we will er as usual send young children definitely under the age of sixteen into shops to see if people will sell fireworks to them and if they do then er we will take the appropriate action which may mean criminal proceedings. It's the er the only way we can see of effectively enforcing that part of the law. It is important the fireworks don't get into young children's hands because they themselves er will be in danger. [Geoff Owen:] Mike says that it's surprisingly not just at this time of the year when they have trouble with bonfires that go out of control. [Mick Cox:] Right throughout the year we will attend er a number of bonfires every single month. Er a quiet month will be one and an say building up to October and November time as many as fifty sixty in that particular period. So far if we take on the ninety ninety two figures we attended something like eight hundred bonfires. Precautionary measure and in fact to put fires out. Er in November of last year we actually attended fifty five bonfires that got out of hand. If we hadn't have put them out then serious injury and damage could have been done to property. There are statistics kept on accidents by er Central Government which all hospitals are asked to put to but you've got to realize that these are only people who have attended hospital. Most accidents in the last year occurred at private or er family parties as opposed to larger displays. There were nearly twice as many accidents at private parties as there were nn er public displays. But then there are street accidents which usually mean people discharging fireworks in the street which in itself is an offence enforced by the police. The highest type of firework last year if it was specified was the sparkler remarkably enough and we would make this point very seriously that parents tend to give children sm very small children sparklers and they must remember tha that these things are fireworks they are dangerous they do get red hot er they must supervise them at all times when they give them sparklers cos they may wave them around they may se set somebody else's clothing on fire with them they may get the sparks in their eyes if they get too close to them er and one particular danger of course is that they they may get hold of en the hot end when the firework has finally extinguished and they think it's all finished with. And that is very very hot and will give some nasty burns to people's hands. The business about sparklers erm it is one of those things where the very young children like to hold a sparkler but it has got to be done under proper supervised conditions. You are playing with a fire the temperature at the tip when it's burning is approaching about a thousand degrees centigrade. And that is awfully hot it's enough to bend steel and you can the effects of that on the metalwork after it's burnt away. And there we are putting it into a three or four year old's hand something that's erm got that sort of temperature round it. [Geoff Owen:] Trading Standards on Nottinghamshire's Big Bang so a week of fireworks chunk four of that on tomorrow. It's er Dennis next with Afternoon Special I'll see you tonight at the Star Inn on Middle Street in Beeston at eight o'clock for Drinking Partners if you want to come along and watch there. It's the county's favourite radio station B B C Radio Nottingham the time now's two o'clock. Radio Nottingham news with Dave Harper. [Nigel Bell:] Calverton Colliery is to close in just over two week's time with the expected loss of around six hundred and fifty jobs. The proposed closure has been confirmed twenty four hours after British Coal announced the pit was to go into the review procedure and it was revealed that it had lost more than six million pounds in the last six months. Union leaders at the pit say they'll challenge the closure by taking legal action. Nottinghamshire police have revealed released a recording of a girl they believe called the Kingsmill Hospital in Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby. They think it's the same teenager who's made at least a dozen calls to the police and a hospital in Lincolnshire since reporting the birth at the weekend. Nigel Bell reports. [speaker006:] I was the one that killed it and I didn't. He was the one that got me pregnant. [Nigel Bell:] This is the voice of the girl who sometimes uses the name Cindy and sometimes Linda. She says she's fourteen and that the father of her child is her own dad. Acting Detective Superintendent Mick Cox says they realize the girl could be in danger but believe it's necessary to broadcast the recording. [Mick Cox:] This has been talked through but with both the Social Services and the the er hospital and er we decided to take that chance. [Nigel Bell:] They've checked schools and housing estates in the Mansfield area but say they've no leads. Half a dozen officers are investigating the case but police forces across the East Midlands are on standby. Mick Cox is urging anyone who recognizes this voice to contact the police. There's a free phone number O eight hundred six two six nine nine nine. [speaker006:] And every time I've run away from home and then every time you lot have took me back home and then I end up getting pregnant. [Nigel Bell:] At the trial of two eleven year old boys accused of murdering the toddler James Bolger the court has heard a statement given to the police by James's mother Denise. She described how he disappeared and how she frantically searched for him. The boys have denied abducting and murdering James and attempting to abduct another child. From Preston Crown Court Kevin Bucket. [speaker006:] Denise Bolger gave her statement to the police on February the thirteenth the day after her son James disappeared but before his body was found on a railway embankment in Walton. She described how she was at a butcher's shop when she noticed James had gone. She ran into other nearby shops looking for him and asking people if they'd seen him. Then she reported his disappearance to the shopping centre security office and the police were called. Mrs Bolger who's expecting a baby next month has not been in court but her husband Ralph sat through the first two days. The court also heard evidence today from a nurse who was in the shopping centre several hours before James Bolger disappeared. She said she saw the two defendants tormenting an elderly woman by prodding her from behind. Then they ran away. The trial is continuing. [Nigel Bell:] Crime in England and Wales has risen to record levels according to the latest Home Office figures. They showed that in the year to June reported crime was almost four per cent higher than in the previous twelve months. But the rate of increase is much smaller than in recent years and some police forces including the Metropolitan Police recorded fewer crimes. A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending and internal investigation. The probe at Redoaks Training Centre in Rainworth follows a police investigation at Stone Cross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield. Nottinghamshire County Council won't confirm what the latest allegations are about but it's reported that they centre on fraud and sexual abuse at Redoaks. They've stressed that the two cases aren't linked though. Huge fires are still raging out of control in California. Thousands of people have been forced to move out of their homes in the exclusive resort of Malibu and suburbs northwest of Los Angeles. Several people are reported to have been seriously injured. A State funeral mass has been held in Rome for the film director who died at the weekend. Thousands packed the Basilica where the service was held others followed the mass from the Square outside. The director whose most famous films include the and Eight and a Half will be buried in the family crypt in his home town of Rimini. On to the weather forecast now for Nottinghamshire. Many area [recording ends]

[speaker002:] On kiss. [Geoff:] On kiss. and they come in tubes and there's four in a tube of them. you can have loads of those. I'll give you ten for that. Are you gonna come back tomorrow? [speaker002:] Am I allowed? [Geoff:] Well yes. [speaker002:] Oh alright then. [Geoff:] yeah you can carry on till somebody knocks you off your perch. [speaker002:] Yeah [Geoff:] And let's just hope it's soon. I'll talk to you tomorrow. [speaker002:] Oh thanks. [Geoff:] Tarrah. [speaker002:] Bye. [Geoff:] Bye bye, Loot at Lunchtime tomorrow then, ten to one, er quarter to oneish just after the Action Line bulletin, listen in then and we'll give you the qualifying question. [music] Sixteen minutes to two now [music] this is erm Vanity Fair and it's early in the morning. No it's not. [music] Vanity Fair and er it's early in the morning. It's er middle of the afternoon, it's er Radio Nottingham, thirteen minutes to two now. [jingle] On the trains no problems, East Midlands Airport say everything's running to time, in the city centre no huge delays anywhere, on the motorways they're all okay as well, on the A One there's major work just started on the roundabout, that's the er five lanes end roundabout affecting southbound traffic, there are long delays there in peak times, that's at er five lane ends, the work there on the A One just started, that's the Roundabout, southbound traffic is being affected, there are long delays there. Road in the A Six Double O Five there's roadworks on the junction of Lane causing some delays. Newark town centre, Hill er area of the town, part of is closed so diversions are signed there. On the A Six O Nine there's resurfacing on Road between Drive and Drive and erm further up the M One junction eighteen, it's down to one lane on the southbound carriageway that is causing delays and there is a contraflow on the M One between junctions twenty one and twenty two in operation there in both directions. No problems there at the moment but if you're heading there later on watch it. Updates on the travel for you throughout the afternoon and a full service at teatime with John on Radio Nottingham from er half four till seven. F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five, Nottinghamshire's favourite station. And the weather forecast for this afternoon and this evening from John from off you go. [John:] Yes er rain reaching most parts of the region th this afternoon, tonight will be cloudy with further rain, becoming drier in the morning. The outlook for Wednesday, dry but isolated showers may occur [music] or develop. [Geoff:] Yeah. [John:] Thursday. Early mist and frost clearing leaving sunny spells, less than twenty five per cent chance of rain. [Geoff:] That's good isn't eh? Twenty five per cent. [John:] Yeah I dunno how they work that one out. [Geoff:] Well I don't know, it's er big of string isn't it or something like [John:] Ah that's it, string and a plumb bob. [Geoff:] Hold their finger up and see which way the wind's blowing. [John:] That's it. [Geoff:] Bye John. [John:] Okay, cheers Geoff. [Geoff:] Tarrah. [John:] Take care. [Geoff:] Let me just do this from er Road police station. They want twelve volunteers for an I D parade. It's at seven o'clock tonight, it's at Road police station, they're looking for white males aged about fortyish, five foot five to six foot approximately tall, of slim build, need to be clean shaven, shoulder length dark brown hair. If you'll stand in the I D parade for them tonight at seven o'clock they'll give you ten pounds. Can you call and ask for Inspector, he'll tell you more. That's they'll give you a tenner, you need to be white male, fortyish, five foot five to six foot, slim build, clean shaven. They'll give you ten pounds, to call for an I D parade tonight. They need a dozen people, ask for Inspector when you ring. [music] Lee Marvin and er wandering star. It's Radio Nottingham and it's eight minutes to two. We'll do Kids' County these have been the clues for today's one. [speaker005:] It's got loads of mud loads of mud. [speaker006:] loads of loads of egg loads of eggs hatched. [speaker007:] It's got a greenhouse next to it. [speaker008:] It's got people I mean it's got someone's mums on it. It's got a lot of plants in it. [speaker009:] People come and visit it and [Geoff:] Now we know it not a chicken factory, it's not the Farm, it's not Farm, it's not Park or Pond, or the arboretum or Hill. Elizabeth is on at work in town. Hello. [Elizabeth:] Hello. [Geoff:] Where are you at work in town? [Elizabeth:] At. [Geoff:] What? [Elizabeth:] . [Geoff:] Where's that? [Elizabeth:] It's on. [Geoff:] On where? Oh. [Elizabeth:] yes. [Geoff:] Ah, who was the erm... who, who is it who makes th the curtains and blinds? And she has her picture on all the adverts? [Elizabeth:] Oh I don't [Geoff:] And she's she's up there somewhere and underneath it it says, [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [Geoff:] it says, I am the lady I make them. [Elizabeth:] Oh yes well I don't know who that one i [Geoff:] Don't you know who it is? [Elizabeth:] No. [Geoff:] It's always in the Post. [Elizabeth:] Yes. [Geoff:] It's always in there, and er and I can remember walking around there and seeing the place where they make them, and her photograph's outside and underneath it says, I am the lady I make them. [Elizabeth:] me [LAUGHTER] [Geoff:] It's not you is it? [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] I don't think so. [] [Geoff:] It's not you? [Elizabeth:] No [Geoff:] Are you busy today? [Elizabeth:] Yes we're always busy. [Geoff:] Are you? What d do you make them or sell them or what? [Elizabeth:] Yes we do make them and sell them. [Geoff:] So have you got big machines there? [Elizabeth:] Yes. [Geoff:] Have you? [Elizabeth:] Yes. [Geoff:] Well d do you actually sort of make the lace fr from scratch or? [Elizabeth:] Yes that's right yes. [Geoff:] Do you? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [Geoff:] Funny cos there aren't many places left that do that now are there? [Elizabeth:] Oh no we don't make it from scratch, we just do the you know the m main machining [Geoff:] Oh I see you just run 'em up? [Elizabeth:] Yes, that's right make [Geoff:] [LAUGHTER] [Elizabeth:] the curtain yes. [Geoff:] I get it. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [Geoff:] Look there's Kids' County Elizabeth where are we after? [Elizabeth:] Where did I say? I've forgotten now. [Geoff:] I dunno know where you said. [Elizabeth:] I'm sorry darling Park. [Geoff:] [LAUGHTER] Park []? [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] Yes [] [Geoff:] No it's not. [Elizabeth:] just gave me the hint you see. [Geoff:] It's not but it's a lovely thought. [Elizabeth:] Oh [Geoff:] Yeah, have you been on before? [Elizabeth:] Well I do ring up now and again yes. [Geoff:] Do ya? [Elizabeth:] But I've never been talking to you before. [Geoff:] Oh haven't you? [Elizabeth:] No. [Geoff:] So do you want a a Radio Virgin thing then? [Elizabeth:] Oh alright then. [Geoff:] Well you can have one of those for being your first time on. Hang on the line we'll sort you out with one of them, alright? [Elizabeth:] Oh my god it's not my [Geoff:] Tarrah. [Elizabeth:] Hello. [Geoff:] Bye bye. [Elizabeth:] Bye bye [Geoff:] Hang on the line we'll sort you o, she's getting all confused. Er Jerry's on from, hello Jerry. [speaker001:] Hello. [Geoff:] How are ya? [speaker001:] Oh er not too bad you know. It's turned out nasty I know that. [Geoff:] It has hasn't it? Turned out drippy again. [speaker001:] It's a good job I took the dog out this morning cos it ain't fit to take a dog out. [LAUGHTER] [Geoff:] It's not now, to get a brolly for your dog. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Geoff:] Get one of those ones that you strap on its back. Er n Kids' County, where they talking about? [speaker001:] Er er. [Geoff:] ? No it's not. It's not, never mind, tarrah. [speaker001:] Tarrah. [Geoff:] Bye bye. Who's on next? Lillian from, hello Lillian. Hello. How are you? Fine thank you. and tell me about you, what do you do? Well I'm a housewife and I've been painting most of the morning. Oh have you? What room is it? Well I've been doing the landing you know, paint w white paintwork. Er busy doing that. This afternoon ironing so A oh so oh now you've got all the jobs done haven't you today? That's it. What a time of it you've got. How many kids have you got? Two but they're grown up. You know th twenty two and ninete er nineteen so mine aren't really small children. I see you've got shut of them already you see? Well I've got one at home but Oh have you? Yes. Yeah. Anyway look Kids' County, where do you think we need Lillian? Well I think it's the School in the complex. erm The greenhouse. Yes go on then you can have it. [music] You can have it, they're talking about the farm that they've got at the School Yes that's yeah. I know they've got a farm Yes,th they sell plants. s so that's it. So erm now I've talked you for so long that I've not got time to play this bit about the werewolves at Retford you see Really? so I'll blame you for it entirely Lillian Yes okay. and er if the werewolves come out then er we'll send them round to your house. Oh thank you. [LAUGHTER] Do your kids go up to School then is that where they went? No no they didn't used to go there but we lived in. No they used to go to the. Oh did they? Yeah. Oh I see. [LAUGHTER] I see. What bit of W I can remember being built. Can you? Cos I used to go to Trent Bridge in er then, you know in the early fifties. Yeah. And I can remember that being built. Ah right I see. School then. It was called the School. Ah yeah for Kids' County, you can have er a video called the Battle of the Atlantic, one of those, er a child's reading book, you can have loads of nuts and sweets er a T shirt and some recipes and things too, alright? Oh yeah lovely thank you. Hang on the line we'll lob it all off to you, well done it was the farm at School. Alright, tarrah. bye bye. Bye bye there. Lillian getting that right. Er last one from me today will be this from everything but the girl. [music] everything but the girl. And er love is strange. Dennis is next with afternoon special, it's Tuesday so it's [mimicking] where are you now []? And then John at teatime, the football from seven and then John from ten till midnight, on the county's favourite radio station, it's B B C Radio Nottingham at two o'clock. [music] [speaker002:] Radio Nottingham News with Andy. [reading] Within the past hour has announced that a review is being launched into the future of three pits in Yorkshire with the intention of closing them all down. The mines involved are and near Doncaster and near Pontefract. The company says the prospects for all three are bleak. Richard reports. [] [John:] 's northern director told a meeting of union officials that prospects for the three pits are bleak. More coal is being produced that can be sold, even the coal burn at power stations this year is likely to be seven million tons less than expected. Half that amount comes from Yorkshire pits. says two of the collieries, and are operating at a loss. The third is producing coal cheaply but most of it is being stockpiled because no one wants to buy it. A spokesman for the National Union of Mineworkers says it's what was expected. The country will soon be without a viable coal industry, he said, and will have to rely increasingly on imported energy supplies. [speaker002:] [reading] Contempt writs have been served against the Home Secretary and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke. It's understood the proceedings arise from their decision to deport the legal guardian of six Nottingham children who were prohibited from leaving the country. has been looking after her younger brothers and sisters since they were made wards of court when their parents were sent back to India. This report from Jeremy. [] [speaker005:] The family came to Britain from Assam when their home was burnt down during Hindu Sikh riots nine years ago. But after losing a protracted fight for asylum both parents were deported. Now their eldest daughter has been told to leave too, but her supporters believe the decision is a clear breach of the children's wardship order. Lawyers are expected to argue that Michael Howard and Mr Clarke are both in contempt of the court's decision by pursuing her deportation. If found guilty they could be fined and ordered to pay court costs. It'd also allow Miss 's lawyers to seek an injunction preventing the deportation which would set a legal precedent. Her supporters believe it would force the government to reexamine their deportation procedures. [speaker002:] [reading] The jury in the James murder trial at Preston Crown Court has been read a statement by a train driver who described how two days after James's disappearance, he saw human remains on the railway line at Walton. Two eleven year old boys deny the abduction and murder of James and the attempted abduction of another boy. Adam reports. [] [speaker006:] The prosecution showed the jury at Preston Crown Court several bags of stones, bricks and masonry found on the railway embankment where James's body was discovered. Some of the stones were said to be stained with blood. They were also shown an iron bar. The judge Mr Justice described it as heavy and as it was handed to members of the jury he warned them not to drop it. A quantity of clothing was also shown to the court. The courtroom fell silent as the exhibits were passed round. Earlier there was evidence from a train driver who said he had seen human remains lying by the track at Walton. The trial continues. [speaker002:] [reading] Solicitors acting for the Princess of Wales have demanded that secret photographs of her working out in a gym should be handed over and that she should be given details of how much money was made from them. This morning writs were issued in the High Court against the editors of the and and against the gym and its owner. Police in Jersey searching for the bodies of Nicholas and Elizabeth who were killed six years ago have found what appear to be human remains. Their two sons Mark and Roderick have been charged with their murders. This morning Mark appeared in court on the island and again denied the charge. He was remanded in custody for a week. A school near Eastwood's been closed today after staff complained that fumes in the building were causing chest and throat problems. Health officials and experts from are trying to trace the cause of the gases at Junior School. People began to feel ill yesterday afternoon and today the head Jean has told all two hundred and forty four pupils to stay at home. She says experts think the fumes are coming from the drains. [] [speaker007:] People are experiencing a smell which is not particularly distressing. But it seems to be getting into the the the throat and and the chest. Adults have noticed throat and chest difficulties there. We've more or less pinned it down to coming from the the drainage systems. [speaker002:] [reading] And police on Merseyside have arrested thirteen people today in connection with the sale of the drug crack. More than two hundred officers took part in the operation which centred on the Toxteth area of the city. And the weather, overcast with rain soon reaching all parts today, becoming heavy at times, the maximum temperatures up to ten celsius fifty fahrenheit, it's going to be drier and brighter tomorrow. [] B B C Radio Nottingham News, it's five minutes past two. [jingle] [music]. [speaker008:] Hello and welcome to Afternoon Special this... Tuesday afternoon, linking the East Midlands. [music] And with it being Tuesday it means that we've our missing persons feature, where are you now, round about three thirty today, so if you've lost touch with a friend, relative or neighbour we could find them for you if they're still in the East Midlands. Call us on if you'd like to be included in where are you now, the feature at three thirty. [music] On the hour the news and weather and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon. If you'd like to have a chat on the air call us on. You have to dial the code O six O two if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area. [music] Got music throughout the programme and a musical competition to start. It's our music quiz, a question is asked about the record, you answer the question, win a prize. And the question about last week's postal competition was, what's Christmassy about this? [music] Last week's postal competition, what's Christmassy about that? Well the answer was holly, because it was Buddy Holly. So what's Christmassy about that? Holly. Now some winners coming up. Holly, holly. Er Mr and Mrs, Road, Evington, you're a winner. Er Mrs Joan of Street, Belper, a winner. Peter, Cottage,sp [start of a sneeze]... at er near Buxton. And one more coming up, let's take it from the bottom of the pile, literally, and it turns out to be Mrs Diane, Street, Market Harborough. There y are. Those are the winners. All said, holly. That was what was Christmassy about that record. Now the question about this record is, tell me another singer with the same name. Don't normally get two singers with the same name but tell me another singer with the same name. I don't want to know the name of this singer, I want to know the name of the other singer with the same name. C all will be revealed very shortly. Call us on please. [music] Now this one's a bit strange. I do not want the name of that singer, but I want the name of a singer with the same name. If you got the answer right you'll know what I mean. John of Saxilby. [speaker009:] Hello Dennis. [speaker008:] What's the name of the singer with the same name but not the name of that singer? [speaker009:] Donovan? [speaker008:] That's it. Say no more than that and that wins you a prize. Can you call anywhere? [speaker009:] Er Lincoln. [speaker008:] Great, thanks a lot John. [speaker009:] Okay. [speaker008:] Bye. [speaker009:] Bye. [speaker008:] Donovan. Yes. Robert of. What were you gonna say? [Elizabeth:] Donovan. [speaker008:] Why? [Elizabeth:] Dunno just said it. [speaker008:] Well what was the name of that singer? [Elizabeth:] Pardon? [speaker008:] What was the name of th s of that singer? [Elizabeth:] What, Jason Donovan? [speaker008:] Jason Donovan that's right. That'll win you a prize. [Elizabeth:] Oh thanks. [speaker008:] Can you call anywhere? [Elizabeth:] Pardon? [speaker008:] Can you call anywhere? [speaker001:] Derby. [Elizabeth:] Derby. [speaker008:] Right we'll have it ready for you. [Elizabeth:] Oh thanks. [speaker008:] Bye. [Elizabeth:] Tarrah. [speaker008:] Yes Jason Donovan, the name of the same singer, it was Donovan but er if you'd have said Jason Donovan yo of course you'd have been incorrect. Anyway right that's how we play it, that's how we play it. Bit weird. What sort of erm what yeah what pet is involved here? What pet is involved here? Call us on ple [music] Just want the name of the pet involved in that record, that's all I want the name of the pet involved in that record. And now on the line from Lutterworth, Pauline. Hello Pauline. [speaker001:] Hello. [speaker008:] name of the pet. [speaker001:] Dog. [speaker008:] That's it. Erm a prize for you. Can you call anywhere? [speaker001:] Er no. [speaker008:] we'll we'll send it you. We've [speaker001:] Erm [speaker008:] got your address have we? [speaker001:] Erm yes thanks Dennis. [speaker008:] Okay. [speaker001:] Erm Dennis [speaker008:] What love? [speaker001:] Er my sister won erm... whatever you're sending, last week. [speaker008:] Oh yeah? [speaker001:] Erm and she ain't received it yet. [speaker008:] Yeah. Eh? [speaker001:] She's not received [speaker008:] No er we've been told that Radio Leicester, our colleagues here at Radio Leicester tell us that there's a bit of a delay in sending out C Ds. [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker008:] Only a bit of a delay so [speaker001:] Oh okay. [speaker008:] But but well they've got all the names and everything and they'll be with you shortly. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker008:] Okay love? [speaker001:] Good of ya. [speaker008:] Okay. [speaker001:] Thanks a lot Dennis. [speaker008:] Bye. [speaker001:] Bye. [speaker008:] Now Raymond of Derby. [Geoff:] Hello. [speaker008:] What we you gonna say? [Geoff:] I thought it was a dragon. [speaker008:] Why did you think it was a dragon? [Geoff:] It was just the way the music was. [speaker008:] Oh no. Oh so you don't know why it was dog? [Geoff:] I don't, no. [speaker008:] Because it was the do Bonzo Dog Doodah Band. Yeah. Never mind. Raymond thanks for trying. [Geoff:] Okay. [speaker008:] Bye. [Geoff:] Bye. [speaker008:] Now ooh it's the postal isn't it already? Yes the postal. What sort of brass is involved here? What sort of brass is involved here? Answers on a postcard to the music quiz and whichever town is nearest you, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham. That's where you send the postcard to be here by Tuesday of next week and the question is, what sort of brass is involved here? [music] Now the question is, what sort of brass is involved in that record? Postcards to the music quiz Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham, whichever is closest to you. Postcards to be here by Tuesday of next week. Now let's take some calls and don't forget our feature at three thirty, our all important feature, I think it's the most important of the week don't you? Where are you now, the missing persons feature. Finding long lost friends, relatives and neighbours throughout the East Midlands. I think that's pretty important actually. Erm seems to be. Anyway, give us a ring on if you want to go on where are you now, if you've lost touch with someone we'll try and find 'em, especially if they're in the East Midlands. And you can give us a ring on that number if you'd like to have a chat on the air this afternoon about anything at all. Now we don't do wanted items or giveaways or anything like that, you know we don't do that on the programme, that's for other programmes. So wanted a port er wanted a portable manual typewriter wanted in the Grantham area, lady is willing to pay, phone. Wanted portable manual typewriter, wanted in Grantham, willing to pay, phone,. If you don't get these numbers you can always ring us on which is our administration number. That sound posher than saying it's the phone-in number. Here's a giveaway, er or no wait a minute, it isn't a giveaway cos they want a donation for children in need. It's a voucher with a three day mini-cruise for two people sharing from Harwich to Hamburg or Harwich to Esbjerg to be used weekdays, valid until the twentieth of December and it's worth a hundred and sixty quid. Meals not included.... Anyway if you wanna give a donation to children in need for that, dial. I'll read it again cos it's quite complex innit? It's got me puzzled anyway. Erm [reading] a donation for children in need asked. This is a voucher worth a hundred and sixty pounds with for a three day mini-cruise for two people sharing from Harwich to Hamburg or Harwich to Esbjerg to be used weekdays, until the twentieth of December. [] If you're interested, meals are not included, but if you're interested dial. Now we won't do any more of those.. At School in Lane Derby, there is cable-laying going on in Street, Lane and Street. This is causing traffic buildup and warning to parents when picking up children, be very careful. So if you're picking up children from the Primary School in Lane Derby, there's cable-laying going on in Street, Lane and Street. This is causing traffic buildup so it's a warning, be careful. Erm I've had a lovely letter from... from George. And George is erm the district governor for Rotary, for the Alfreton area. And the thing is they're doing a huge charity dance, the Rotary Club of Alfreton, on Friday this week, the twelfth. Eight P M till midnight, food available, late bar er there's the big band sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra and special guest is Phil, the resident organist a the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. Now the tickets are four quid each, you can get 'em on the door, but if you'd like two tickets, phone us on, we'll send 'em by first class post, we need your postcode, give us a ring now, if you'd like two tickets for the grand charity dance, modern, old-time and sequence featuring Phil, resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. And the big band sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra, it's all happening at the Leisure Centre Alfreton this Friday, eight till twelve, tickets are four quid, you can get 'em on the door, all organized by Rotary. But call us if you'd like two tickets.. Una of Mansfield. [speaker002:] H hello. [speaker008:] Hello. [speaker002:] Hello. [speaker008:] Hello. [speaker002:] Is that Dennis? [speaker008:] Yes hello. [speaker002:] Hello Dennis, my name's Una. [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker002:] Now I work as a care assistant in a nursing home at Bilsthorpe, nursing home. [speaker008:] Th Bilsthorpe near Mansfield? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker002:] And we are desperate to have a piano. [speaker008:] Why? [speaker002:] Well we do lots of activities with our residents and they love sing- alongs but unfortunately we haven't our own piano. [speaker008:] Have you never had one? [speaker002:] No. [speaker008:] Well yo they sa you kn what they say? What you've never had you'll never miss. [speaker002:] But we are missing it. [speaker008:] Are you? [speaker002:] We've got a nurse, er a trained nurse, er she does play the piano and she's quite willing to play for us if only we can get a piano donated. [speaker008:] Well I mean you see [speaker002:] Erm [speaker008:] lo [sigh] I've got this big problem really about people like you coming on asking for pianos. Very often [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] What's the matter? [speaker002:] Why? [speaker008:] Who's tickling you? [speaker002:] Nobody. [speaker008:] Oh. It sounds like you wish they were. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] No I've got this big problem you see because very often pianos are at the centre of orgies. Now if you have an orgy there I could get the blame for this. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker008:] Do you have many orgies there? [speaker002:] Well [speaker008:] Don't put it to the customers, don't put it to your clients cos they'll say we want one. [speaker002:] Well th they might well do. Yes. But you know I mean our oldest resident is a hundred and two. [speaker008:] Makes no difference love. [speaker002:] You know so he h [speaker008:] Never, never [speaker002:] might well enjoy a good rubdown and a massage. [speaker008:] I beg your pardon? [speaker002:] But I d I'm not quite sure if orgy. [speaker008:] Oh hang on hang on. Oh oh my hair's standing up at the back of my neck. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] I only y well you see the Romans did have a word you know they had a phrase, have you heard about that Roman phrase? [speaker002:] No I've not [speaker008:] You're never [speaker002:] I'm sure you'll tell me. [speaker008:] You're never too old for an orgy. Now [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker008:] They had that as a phrase, that was a phrase in Roman times. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] And they should know. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker008:] So I'm a bit worried ab cos pianos can you know i th they sort of, it's the it's the constant beat of the piano. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker008:] It can [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] it can sort of engender orgies. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Ah but you don't want an orgy there do you? [speaker002:] Oh I don't know [speaker008:] Oh [speaker002:] I could ask. [speaker008:] think of the local, think of the and what it would say if you had an orgy. Oh [speaker002:] Well I I bet we'd make front page wouldn't we? [speaker008:] You would make front page of the. [speaker002:] Yeah we would. [speaker008:] You would indeed. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] Yeah yeah. I don't mean [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker008:] orgy love, are you sure you want a piano? [speaker002:] Yes we definitely ne need a piano. [speaker008:] Now the all important thing about a piano is, apart from the fact that it t can be at the centre of an orgy, the important thing is that are you able to collect it? [speaker002:] Well yes we could. [speaker008:] Cos you know it takes t at least eighteen strong men or twenty four weak women? You know that? [speaker002:] Erm well I think you'd have to make do with twenty four strong care assistants. [speaker008:] Okay alright then. Well we'll try eh? [speaker002:] Oh that would lovely because [speaker008:] And you [speaker002:] our party's we've arranged our Christmas party for our residents for the nineteenth of [speaker008:] This is before you've got the [speaker002:] December. [speaker008:] this is before you've got the piano. [speaker002:] Well we're still having a party anyway, but a piano would be a a big help. If someone, some nice kind person would donate one for us. [speaker008:] Alright. [speaker002:] It would be great. [speaker008:] From anywhere? [speaker002:] From anywhere. [speaker008:] From anywhere alright [speaker001:] Anywhere. [speaker008:] we'll see if we can get you a piano and if [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker008:] anybody calls we'll give you a ring. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Alright love? [speaker002:] Okay then. [speaker008:] . [speaker002:] Thank you very much. [speaker008:] Eh listen you said your oldest is er a hundred and two? [speaker002:] Yes Mr our Albert. [speaker008:] How lovely. [speaker002:] Yes he's a hundred and two and he's lovely. [speaker008:] What about your youngest? [speaker002:] Our youngest? Well I think our youngest ooh well into their sixties. [speaker008:] Are they? [speaker002:] Yeah. And we we do try to keep them busy and we have monthly parties and erm [speaker008:] Parties? [speaker002:] occupa oh yes [speaker008:] I told ya. [speaker002:] oh yes [speaker008:] You're halfway there alre you're halfway there already. [speaker002:] Yes [speaker008:] You're halfway there. [speaker001:] Ooh. [speaker002:] Do you want to buy some raffle tickets Dennis? [speaker008:] What for the next orgy? No. [speaker002:] yes if you like. [speaker008:] Ooh dear, I knew we shouldn't have done this. [speaker002:] Pound for five. [speaker008:] Pound for five? [speaker002:] Yeah we'll let you have ten pounds' worth. [speaker008:] . [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] That's very generous. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] Very generous, I haven't had such a good offer for a long time. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] How long have you been there at the nursing home? [speaker002:] I've been there six months now. [speaker008:] Have you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Enjoy it? [speaker002:] I love it. [speaker008:] What did you do before? [speaker002:] Well I've done a bit of all sorts rea Mainly I looked after my dad while he was ill. [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm but then I lost my dad so [speaker008:] Yeah [speaker002:] I went to do what I thought I could do the best. [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Which was look after everybody else. [speaker008:] And you enjoy it? [speaker002:] I love it yes. [speaker008:] So who's gonna to look after you? [speaker002:] Me? [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Well I've got two strong daughters so I suppose they'll hold me up when I'm when I'm you know sort of decrepit and ready. [speaker008:] Oh you're gonna be decrepit and ready are you? [speaker002:] some days I feel it now Dennis. [speaker008:] Probably, probably [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] before probably at the Christmas party. [speaker002:] Ye well yes we'll be pretty tired because it's a full day. [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's two thirty till six, everything going on [speaker008:] So listen [speaker002:] for the children that come and everything. [speaker008:] what's what's happening at the nursing home on Christmas Day, do you know yet? [speaker002:] Well we're not quite sure yet. We we've sort of planned things for every day, for the week leading up to Christmas [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] erm it's just [speaker008:] It sounds like everybody's gonna be exhausted at your place. [speaker002:] Well it's good fun, you'll have to join us, you'll have to come through and have a look. [speaker008:] I see [tape change] whereabouts of Hilda, last heard of in nineteen sixty nine, used to keep... used to keep erm newsagent's shop in Ravenshead. A gentleman in Birmingham would like to make contact with an ex-member of the R A F who he served with, his name is Dennis, and it was known that he lived in West Bridgeford Nottingham. So whatever happened to Dennis of West Bridgeford Nottingham? Ex R A F. Call us on please. A listener would like to hear from any ex-pupils of School Worksop who were in the fifth year between nineteen sixty seven and nineteen sixty eight, to join in a celebration marking the success of one its pupils. Alright? Any ex-pupils of School Worksop, who were in the fifth year between nineteen sixty seven and nineteen sixty eight, to join in a celebration marking the success of one its pupils. I wonder what they've done? And we'd like to find Paddy who served in the R A F police unit at R A F Hunnington in Suffolk during nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty. Paddy, he's of Irish descent, he lives in the Newark area and if it's h found, if he's found it's hoped that Paddy can be included in a reunion. Paddy who lived in the Newark area. We're looking for Sandra who lived in the village of Headon near Retford. She used to work in a wool shop in Retford called Wool Shop. Sandra had a brother called Rodney and a sister named Sharon. It's believed that Sandra moved to either Newark or Leicester. Anybody know Sandra? Came from Headon near Retford, worked in a wool shop in Retford called Wool Shop and Sandra had a brother called Rodney and a sister named Sharon. Sandra could have moved to either Newark or Leicester. Call us if you know her,. Now we're looking for Debbie and Tony. Dominic would like to get in touch with a couple he met on holiday in August at Innerlaken in Switzerland, who come from Derby. They're Debbie and Tony of Derby. Debbie and Tony. But unfortunately their surname cannot be remembered. Debbie who's blond, thirty eight years old, has two children a boy and a girl, works with the deaf in Derby. Tony er his mother lives with them. The couple Debbie and Tony o drove a blue Sierra and during the holiday it was their anniversary and Debbie's birthday. So anybody know of the whereabouts of Debbie and Tony who live we think... where was it? In the Derby area? In the Derby area. Call us please. Now let's go to the phones.... On the line from Calverton we've got Grenville. Who're you looking for Grenville? [John:] Hello Dennis. Er I'll try and take my time, I stammer a bit Dennis a you know. Er I'm l [speaker008:] That's okay. [John:] I'm look looki looking for Hi Hilda. [speaker008:] Hilda? Is that is that her maiden name? [John:] That's her maiden name, well it's abo f about forty nine fifty years ago since I've seen her. [speaker008:] And where did she live? [John:] Well she li liv on Estate, er on Estate,. [speaker008:] Nottingham? [John:] [stuttering] Avenue I think it was. [speaker008:] Yeah. Wha what work did she do? [John:] Well she worked at Brewery I think she did labelling you know in in department. [speaker008:] Do you know if she got married? [John:] N no I don er it's quite a long st we it's quite a long story. Well she go Hilda got a baby boy about eighteen month old when I knew her like you know, and er she lived by I think it was I think it was you know and er what happened to her I be I think she had to go in a home or er you see and er baby boy was adopted like, the baby boy that's about all I know about her that's about all. [speaker008:] alright, let's try for Hilda. And Hilda was her maiden name, last seen forty nine years ago, she lived on Estate,, Nottingham and she worked as a labeller in the bottle department of Brewery. Hilda. [John:] That's right. [speaker008:] We'll try and find her. If we do Granville, we'll give you a call. [John:] thanks very much Dennis. [speaker008:] Thank you. [John:] Okay Dennis thank you [speaker008:] Bye bye. [John:] Thank you very much. [speaker008:] if you know the whereabouts of Hilda. We have found, one of the letters. We've found Sandra er wh who was in Retford at the Wool Shop, we've found Sandra. Angela of Mapperley. Who're you looking for?... Hello.... Angela. Angela of Mapperley.... Hello Angela.... No Angela? No? Right go onto the next customer. Roy of.... Roy.... Roy.... Hello Roy.... No Roy. Oh dear. I wonder if anything's happened to our telephones? Er... nobody on at all.... Mm [sigh] Kathleen... Kathleen from Bath. Kathleen. [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker008:] Who are you looking for? [speaker005:] I'm looking for my cousin. [speaker008:] Tell me her name. [speaker005:] Her name is Joyce, her christian name, and her maiden name was. [speaker008:] Do you know did she get married? [speaker005:] Well I presume she did. [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] How long is it since you saw her? [speaker005:] Oh it must be fifty years since I've seen her. [speaker008:] And where did she live? [speaker005:] She lived in Ward End in Birmingham. But she is now in the Leicester area. Erm some ab eight weeks ago she was in Cheltenham where I used to live, trying to find me. And the person she contacted didn't know my address. So we're sort of both playing two sides against the middle. [speaker008:] Er i she was in the Cheltenh Do you know what she does for a living? [speaker005:] I have a feeling, well I should think she's probably retired. I should think she was born about nineteen thirty. Erm I think she was a teacher, she's got a brother Jim who was a housemaster at School in Suffolk, last I heard of him, I saw him mm probably in the nineteen f fifties I should think. [speaker008:] So it's Joyce, that's her maiden name, last seen fifty years ago, used to live in Birmingham but now lives in Leicester [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker008:] and she was a teacher. [speaker005:] I think. [speaker008:] Joyce and she's got a brother Jim. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Alright. Anybody calls we'll ring you. [speaker005:] Okay lovely. [speaker008:] Thank you Kathleen. [speaker005:] Okay bye. [speaker008:] Bye. i you know the whereabouts of Joyce. That's her maiden name, she may have got married and changed that name of course, she was a teacher, lived in the Leicester area. Now I think we can try, is it Angela? Or Roy?... Ida of Mansfield. [speaker006:] Mark [speaker008:] Mark Markfield sorry. Ida. [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker008:] Who're you looking for? [speaker006:] I'm looking for a school friend, her name is Mary. [speaker008:] Is that her maiden name? [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker008:] Er did she get married? [speaker006:] I don't know. [speaker008:] Last seen when? [speaker006:] I've never seen her since we left school about nineteen forty eight. [speaker008:] Where did she live? [speaker006:] She lived in er Road, Oadby. [speaker008:] Er what does she do for a living? [speaker006:] I don't know. Can't tell ya. Went to School together. You know like school friends [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker006:] but I haven't seen her since we left school in nineteen forty eight. [speaker008:] Can you give us any more information? [speaker006:] Well I did hear, I don't know if it w if it's true, that she was er what you call a lollipop lady. [speaker008:] Whereabouts? [speaker006:] In Oadby. That a that's all I know. [speaker008:] recently? [speaker006:] Yes I think so. [speaker008:] So Mary but that's her maiden name, [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker008:] it's nineteen forty eight, so she may well have married and changed her name. [speaker006:] That's right. [speaker008:] Lived on Road, Oadby and may have been a lady a lollipop lady in the Oadby area. [speaker006:] Yes, she used to live with her mum and dad and she ha I know she had a sister but I don't know if her sister name was Betty. But where she used to live the houses have been pulled down ooh a few years ago and it's all shops now. [speaker008:] Alright, we'll try and find Mary for you and if we do we'll give you a call Ida. [speaker006:] Yes thank you very much. [speaker008:] Thanks love bye. [speaker006:] Bye bye. [speaker008:] , the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of Mi Mary, her maiden name, last seen in nineteen forty eight, she may have married and changed her name. May have been a lollipop lady in Oadby. Call us if you know anything, please. Sybil of Northampton. [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker008:] Who're you looking for? [speaker007:] I'm looking for my two cousins. [speaker008:] Names? [speaker007:] Names, Margaret and Joan, their si single name was but [speaker008:] Do you know [speaker007:] I don't know their married names. [speaker008:] And did they both get married? [speaker007:] Yes they both got married. [speaker008:] Er last seen how long ago? [speaker007:] Oh about fifty years ago. [speaker008:] Living where? [speaker007:] In South Wigston Leicestershire. [speaker008:] Do you know what jobs Margaret and Joan had? [speaker007:] No. Margaret was in the Air Force for some years but I couldn't say what they did for work. [speaker008:] So you've no idea where they could be now? [speaker007:] No idea. Er they've always lived in South Wigston, all their life. [speaker008:] So Margaret and Joan [speaker007:] That's their [speaker008:] cousins and that's their maiden names, [speaker007:] that's their maiden name. [speaker008:] last seen fifty years ago, lived in South Wigston [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker008:] and Margaret was in the R A F during the war, [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker008:] and Margaret and Joan are both married so they've both changed their names. [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker008:] Did they have any brothers? [speaker007:] No. [speaker008:] Alright. We'll try and find Margaret and Joan, if we do we'll give you a ring. [speaker007:] Thank you very much indeed. [speaker008:] Thanks bye. [speaker007:] Thank you, bye. [speaker008:] Bye Sybil. the number to ring there. Reg of Newark, who are you looking Dennis who are you looking for? Er the descendants of John and Jane. They lived er at the turn of the century or just before in the Blankley Bath area which is round Methringham. The family w was made up of sons John, Thomas, William and Joseph and the girls were Mary and Harriet. Harriet married a William who was a gamekeeper. we're talking about around the turn of the century? Century yes. Er John actually of the John and Jane, he died in nineteen O three aged seventy six, he was buried at. Erm, mm. So y descendants of John and Jane? Yes. Who lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham? That's right. They had how many children? They had four boys, John, Thomas, William and Joseph and two girls, Mary and Harriet. Harriet married er William who was a gamekeeper. Are you in touch with any of them? Er not from that side of the family, no. Alright, well we'll try and get you some information and if we do we'll give you a ring. Well that's very kind of you. Thank you. Thank you Reg. Goodbye. So descendants of John and Jane, er John Wilson died in nineteen hundred and three, at age seventy six, so we're talking about the turn of the century. They lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham and they had six children, John, Thomas, William, Joseph, Mary and Harriet. Harriet married William a gamekeeper. And there the information ends, can you help fill in some details with John and Jane who lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham, turn of the century? Give us a call please. Christine of. [speaker009:] Hello. [speaker008:] Who are you looking for? [speaker009:] I'm looking for a work friend. Erm her name was Freddy, so I presume her name was Frederica and we worked in the lace market in nineteen sixty five [speaker008:] mhm [speaker009:] at a place called. [speaker008:] Where did Freddy live? [speaker009:] I think maybe erm Carlton way. I'm not sure. [speaker008:] Did was she married? [speaker009:] No she was we were just teenagers, we were seventeen then. [speaker008:] You don't know if Freddy got married? [speaker009:] No. But she had long red hair and she was just a work friend. [speaker008:] So Freddy [speaker009:] Yeah. [speaker008:] er she was last seen nineteen sixty five working in the lace market in Nottingham at [speaker009:] Yeah. [speaker008:] and she had long red hair. [speaker009:] Yes and she she had er a tartan skirt and she swapped it with me for a an Indian blue dress. [speaker008:] Alright we'll try and find Freddy for you. It's a bit er you know [speaker009:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] bit sparse in information but we'll try [speaker009:] Yes. But my name was Christine then. [speaker008:] Christine. [speaker009:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Alright we'll try and find Freddy. [speaker009:] Okay. [speaker008:] Thank you. [speaker009:] Bye. [speaker008:] So we're looking for... ah we've found Mary, last seen in nineteen forty eight at Oadby. We've found Mary. Now there is a difficult one. We're looking for Freddy, and that's all we've got. Freddy, young lady, last seen nineteen sixty five working in the lace market in Nottingham at, think she lived nearby at Carlton, Nottingham and had long red hair did Freddy. Where are you now? the number to ring. Betty of Evington. Who are you looking for? [Elizabeth:] Hello. I'm looking for a friend of mine Hazel was her maiden name. [spelling] [] [speaker008:] You know her er married name? [Elizabeth:] And she married er a man named, Mr, I c don't know his christian name, and he was a warder at the Leicester prison. And then he was called up er in the Air Force in nineteen forty. She had a baby we she was expecting a baby and we called it P J,anyw and she said it was going to be Peter John and th anyway when it arrived it was a Pamela [LAUGHTER] Jane []. Now I know she lives in the Nottingham area now although she's been widowed quite a few years. And I would like to get in touch with her again. [speaker008:] So Mrs Hazel last seen when? [Elizabeth:] Mrs Hazel yes. [speaker008:] Last seen when? [Elizabeth:] Er in nineteen forty. [speaker008:] And where did she actually live then? [Elizabeth:] She lived on Road South. [speaker008:] Leicester? [Elizabeth:] Leicester. Mhm. [speaker008:] And you think she's in Nottingham now? [Elizabeth:] Yes I heard she'd gone to the Nottingham area. [speaker008:] Where did she li work? [Elizabeth:] Pardon? [speaker008:] Where did she work? [Elizabeth:] She worked at on the North Bridge in Leicester. [speaker008:] In in Leicester. Do you know how many children she's got? [Elizabeth:] Well I understood she had two. [speaker008:] Mm. And one of one them [Elizabeth:] I know she had one. [speaker008:] One of 'em is Pamela Jane. [Elizabeth:] Well sh yes. [speaker008:] er. Okay, we're looking for Mrs Hazel. [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker008:] Last seen in the last war, nineteen forty, she lived on the Road South in [Elizabeth:] South [speaker008:] Leicester. [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker008:] And her husband was a warder at Leicester prison but he's died. [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker008:] And Hazel worked at on [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker008:] the North Bridge [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker008:] and she's got some children including Pamela Jane. [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker008:] Pa Mrs Hazel? [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker008:] We'll try and find her and we'll ring you if [Elizabeth:] Thank you very much. [speaker008:] we do. [Elizabeth:] Thank you. [speaker008:] Thank you Betty. [Elizabeth:] Bye bye. [speaker008:] Mrs Hazel. Er was at Leicester, might now live in Nottingham. Call us please if you know her whereabouts. Hazel of South. [speaker001:] Hello. [speaker008:] B Boston. [speaker001:] Hello. [speaker008:] Hazel who are you looking for? [speaker001:] Er Ken. [speaker008:] Ken, last seen when? [speaker001:] Nineteen eighty two. [speaker008:] And where did he live then? [speaker001:] In the Sleaford area. [speaker008:] What did he work for a living? [speaker001:] Er senior nursing officer at Hospital Holbeach which of course is now closed. [speaker008:] Was Kenneth married? [speaker001:] Er he was but er his wife is deceased erm but I understand he has remarried recently. [speaker008:] And has he any children? [speaker001:] Er yes, one son Ian Mark and Ian will be about twenty. [speaker008:] Er you think Kenneth will now be retired? [speaker001:] Yes he has retired. [speaker008:] So Kenneth, last seen nineteen eighty two, lived at the Sleaford area, a retired nursing senior officer at Hospital Holbeach, he's married he's remarried er and he's got a son Ian Mark. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker008:] We'll try and find him, if we do, give you a ring. [speaker001:] Thank you very much. [speaker008:] Thanks Hazel. [speaker001:] Thank you, bye. [speaker008:] N the number to ring if you can help Hazel out. Hazel of er Boston looking for Kenneth. Kenneth, last seen nineteen eighty two, lived in the Sleaford area, a retired senior nursing officer at Hospital Holbeach, er m may have married for a second time, Kenneth he's got a son Ian Mark. Give us a call if you know him, please. Malcolm of Mansfield Woodhouse. [Geoff:] Hello Dennis. [speaker008:] Who are you looking for? [Geoff:] Well I'm looking for a very good friend of mine er who I served in the army with called Tony. [speaker008:] Last seen when? [Geoff:] Well it would be round nineteen seventy three seventy four. [speaker008:] And where did he live at that time? [Geoff:] Er he was from Gedling but we lived together in the army barracks at that particular time. [speaker008:] What mob were you in? [Geoff:] Er the King's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery. [speaker008:] Oh them? [Geoff:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] Ah. What rank were you? [Geoff:] Sorry? I was a gunner, I'd only been in er [speaker008:] Oh I see. [Geoff:] a couple of years [speaker008:] Wha er Tony er did he have any brothers or sisters? [Geoff:] Well to be quite honest I can't honestly remember. I was the best man at his wedding. [speaker008:] Ah he got married? [Geoff:] Yes he did and it was in Gedling I believe. [speaker008:] I what was his wife's name? [Geoff:] Jean. But I can't remember the second name. [speaker008:] Do you know if they had any children? [Geoff:] Not at that time, they didn't no. [speaker008:] Do you know if er what er Tony er civilian occupation was? [Geoff:] No I haven't a clue. I don't know if he left the King's Troop and went into the First er Regiment Royal Artillery, but erm I went to Germany and of course we just lost contact. [speaker008:] So it's Tony, last [Geoff:] Tony [speaker008:] last seen nineteen seventy three seventy four, lived in Gedling Nottingham got [Geoff:] Yeah. [speaker008:] married to Jean, Jean, [Geoff:] Yeah. [speaker008:] er and he was in the King's Troop Royal Horse Artillery [Geoff:] Yeah [speaker008:] he could've er got out of that, but he lived in Gedling Nottingham. [Geoff:] Yes he did yeah. Now one of the names which would come straight to his head was my nickname which was Schultz. [speaker008:] Yes. [Geoff:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] But Tony isn't listening. [Geoff:] No that's right. [speaker008:] He he's not listening at the moment. But a friend of his is. And that's why we need as much information about Tony so that his friend will recognize him, ring through and then you'll be in touch him. [Geoff:] Yeah. [speaker008:] But Tony isn't listening to this programme at this moment. [Geoff:] Right. [speaker008:] Okay? But er we'll try and get him Malcolm and if we do, we'll give you a call. How long is it since you were called Schultz? [Geoff:] Er well when I left in nineteen seventy six. [speaker008:] It finished? [Geoff:] Sorry? [speaker008:] It finished then that nickname? [Geoff:] Yes. [speaker008:] Yeah always does. Alright Malc we'll we'll give you a ring if we find Tony. [Geoff:] Lovely. [speaker008:] Bye. [Geoff:] Thank you very much, bye. [speaker008:] Tony. A [shouting] Oh [], are you there, Malcolm? Come back to me Malcolm.... Come back to me Malcolm. [Geoff:] Hello. [speaker008:] We've found him. [Geoff:] You haven't. [speaker008:] We have. [Geoff:] As quick as that? [speaker008:] Yeah. He's gonna ring you back straight away. [Geoff:] Lovely. [speaker008:] Put your phone down and he's gonna ring you back. [Geoff:] Thanks very much. [speaker008:] Bye. That's a good 'un innit? Found him, straight away, Tony. Er last seen in the King's Troop Royal Artillery, Royal Horse Artillery, came from Gedling Nottingham. Fred of. [speaker002:] Hello Dennis. [speaker008:] Who are you looking for? [speaker002:] I'm looking for my cousin, a Dolly. She used to live at Swindon, er sorry Swinford. [speaker008:] Swinford Leicester? [speaker002:] Leicestershire yes. [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Now [speaker008:] Was she is that her maiden name? [speaker002:] Er yes, she was only a young girl when I first kne when I [speaker008:] How mu how long is it how long is it? [speaker002:] Er just before the war when I saw her last. [speaker008:] So nineteen thirties? [speaker002:] Er thirty nine, thirty eight thirty nine. [speaker008:] Nineteen thirty nine, right. Dolly, er was Dolly her real name? [speaker002:] Er... I'm not certain, Dorothy I think it was but she [speaker008:] Oh [speaker002:] always used to be known as Dolly. [speaker008:] Dolly [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] and that was her maiden name? Do you know if she got married? [speaker002:] I've no ideas. [speaker008:] Wh where did she live? [speaker002:] She us [speaker008:] Swinford Leicester. [speaker002:] Swinford in Leicestershire, yes. [speaker008:] Do you know what she did for a living? [speaker002:] No she was still at school. [speaker008:] Oh. Did [speaker002:] Er [speaker008:] she have any brothers or sisters? [speaker002:] Er no. No er er her dad used to work at at Rugby, and I er saw him ooh nineteen forty seven I think. Just after the war. [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Er he used to work at at Ru at er Rugby. [speaker008:] So Dolly [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] that's her maiden name, Dolly [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] lived at Swinford Leicester, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] her father worked at er at Rugby. [speaker002:] Yes. And I've got an idea, er something keeps on cropping up in my mind whether she moved there or not I don't know, but er those t two villages keep on recurring in my [speaker008:] Alright alright. Well we'll try and find Dolly for you. [speaker002:] Yes right. [speaker008:] Okay Fred. [speaker002:] Okay Dennis. [speaker008:] Bye. [speaker002:] Bye. [speaker008:] the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of Dolly, that's her maiden name, last seen nineteen thirty nine, lived at Swinford Leicester, maybe in a village n in Leicester near Swinsford now. Dolly, that's her maiden name, she may have married and changed her mind. Would Mrs Joan of Drive, Alveston Derby replace your receiver from your daughter, please. Mrs Jo Mrs Jan. Mrs Jan, Drive, Alveston Derby please replace your receiver from your daughter. Now who've we got? We got Angela of Mapperley. Angela. [John:] Hello. [speaker008:] Who are you looking for? [John:] Erm Kitty. [speaker008:] Kitty. Last seen when? [John:] Erm nineteen eighty four. [speaker008:] Where did she live then? [John:] Er Court Green, Nottingham. [speaker008:] Yeah. What did Kitty do for a living? [John:] I don't know. [speaker008:] Er was she married? [John:] No. [speaker008:] Not married? [John:] No. [speaker008:] Any children? [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] Er and Kitty. Can you give us any more information at all? [John:] No that's all I know. No. [speaker008:] Kitty 's her maiden name? [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] Kitty, last seen nineteen eighty four and Kitty lived at Court, Green, Nottingham. [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] How old will she be roughly? [John:] Er late fifties. [speaker008:] Late fifties. [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] Kitty in her late fifties, Kitty who lived at Court, Green, Nottingham. And that's all we got innit? [John:] Yes it is. [speaker008:] Alright. [John:] Okay? [speaker008:] Anybody calls we'll ring you Angela [John:] Thank you. [speaker008:] Bye love. [John:] Bye. [speaker008:] Kitty. Where are you now? the number to ring. Roy of Old Clipston. Who are you looking for? [speaker005:] Hello Dennis, hey I you got through er last time, few minutes ago cut me off. [speaker008:] Well no I [speaker005:] the wrong button? [speaker008:] I didn't. [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] No what happened then? [speaker008:] Anyway come on we haven't got much time. [speaker005:] Aye. Er Ernest. [speaker008:] Ernest. [speaker005:] He and I we we worked together on the electrical staff at colliery. Nineteen or late thirties [speaker008:] Is that when you last saw him? [speaker005:] No the early thirties. [speaker008:] You saw him in the early thirties? [speaker005:] Yes that was the last time. [speaker008:] Right and where did Ernest live? [speaker005:] He used to live er Road area at Mansfield. [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Somewhere up Road. [speaker008:] Was he married? [speaker005:] I don't know. He had a motorcycle, a lovely. [speaker008:] But you don't know if he was married? [speaker005:] I don't know, I would imagine he would be. [speaker008:] Er you never met his wife? Has he got [speaker005:] No. [speaker008:] any children? No you don't know. [speaker005:] I don't know, don't know Dennis. [speaker008:] Any brothers or sisters? [speaker005:] Couldn't tell you. I don't think he had but I'm not certain about that, I don't think so [speaker008:] So it's er [speaker005:] he never spoke of them. [speaker008:] Ernest [speaker005:] Ernest [speaker008:] who worked at er he worked at Colliery? [speaker005:] Yes ha he and I were both on the electrical staff, late twenties, early thirties. [speaker008:] And that's all the information? [speaker005:] That's all I've got. Can I give my telephone number? [speaker008:] Mm, yes a bit thin on information though Roy. [speaker005:] Pardon? [speaker008:] A bit thin on information. [speaker005:] I know it is. We you see we were both single at that time. [speaker008:] Alright. So Ernest [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker008:] who lived in Road, Mansfield, [speaker005:] In that area. [speaker008:] nineteen thirty nine, he worked at Colliery and he had a motorcycle. [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker008:] What's your phone number? Ring you on, thank you Roy. [speaker005:] Ah thanks a lot Dennis. [speaker008:] Bye. [speaker005:] Bye. [speaker008:] Nottingham er the number to ring, but there if you know the whereabouts of Ernest who was at Road, Mansfield, nineteen thirty nine, give a ring on. We've found Margaret and John from fifty years ago, who lived in Wigston. The cous cousins Margaret and Joan have been found and I told you we found Tony while we were still on with Malcolm who was looking for him. We that's where are you now, the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of anyone we were looking for. [music] We go to the news with the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra Pop Section and money, money, money. [music] You're listening to the county's favourite radio station, B B C Radio Nottingham, it's four o'clock. [music] [speaker002:] Radio Nottingham News with Andy. [reading] Three coal mines in Yorkshire which employ fifteen hundred people between them are to have their futures reviewed with the intention of closing them down. says a fall in coal consumption at power stations means their future is very bleak. Two of the mines, and are operating at a loss. The third produces coal cheaply but most of its output is being stockpiled. The National Union of Mineworkers says it had expected the news but Trevor of the pit deputies' union NACODS had this message for miners. [] [speaker006:] It does not matter what says here today, you have a job at this moment in time, I'm asking them to stay in the pits and fight for the right to work those pits. They're profitable pits and they're well worth keeping open. [speaker002:] [reading] A Nottingham police inspector has been telling an inquest about the last time he saw his teenage daughter alive. The body of nineteen year old secretary Helen was found in the grounds of a derelict house on Road in Sherwood last Wednesday. She'd died from multiple stab wounds to the chest. Rob reports. [] [speaker007:] Police inspector Alex from Mapperley said he last saw Helen at bedtime on the second of November. When she failed to return from work the next day he called the police. And colleagues told him a body matching his daughter's description had already been found. The Nottinghamshire coroner Dr Nigel adjourned the inquest pending the outcome of criminal proceedings. Twenty eight year old Sean from Arnold has appeared before Nottingham magistrates charged with murder, and has been remanded in custody. [speaker002:] [reading] The jury at the James murder trial has heard evidence from a Home Office pathologist about the injuries that led to James's death. Two eleven year old boys deny abduction and murder. Adam reports. [] [speaker006:] The Home Office pathologist, Dr Alan spoke of forty two injuries to James's body. He said they were consistent with a series of heavy blows by heavy objects and kicks. Earlier the court had been shown a quantity of bricks and stones some of which were said to be bloodstained, and a heavy iron bar. All had been found at the scene of the crime. The courtroom fell silent as Dr gave his evidence. It was shocking testimony and the jury, people in the public gallery and reporters were clearly shaken. The case continues. [speaker002:] [reading] Rescue workers who helped in the Bilsthorpe disaster have been presented with a plaque bought by the widow of one of the men who died. Peter was crushed in the rockfall at the colliery on August the eighteenth. Around five hundred pounds was given to his wife Pam at his funeral. She's used some of that money to buy plaques for the three mine rescue teams who helped in the operation. Superintendent Jim from Mansfield mines rescue service says it's a touching gesture. [] [speaker008:] It's what the job's all about er and they are professionals and this is the work they're trained for. But little things like this mean a an awful lot to them. Erm... it's what it's all about basically. [speaker009:] Cos presumably they don't expect anything like this, they're just doing their work. [speaker008:] They don't. And that's what makes it even nicer because er it's recognition from outside of of, the people that pay their wages, of the job they're doing and er they're very grateful for it. [speaker002:] [reading] The editor of the who published photographs of the Princess of Wales exercising at a gym has described himself and the man who took the photographs as ratbags. David was speaking to an Australian radio station shortly before lawyers acting for the Princess issued writs against and the gym owner. [] [Elizabeth:] I think it was a particularly sneaky trick frankly. Er an and the the bloke who did it erm has got to go down as one of the ratbags of the year. I don't exclude myself from myself, but I I I'd give him a nine and I I'd come in at a seven I think. [speaker002:] [reading] Workers at one of main car plants, Ellesmere Port in Cheshire, have voted narrowly in favour of an all out strike over pay. A union spokesman said a two and a half per cent pay offer failed to reflect the record profits made by and the huge improvements in productivity at the plant. Contempt writs have been served against the Home Secretary and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke for trying to deport the legal guardian of six Nottingham children who were prohibited from leaving the country. has been looking after her younger brothers and sisters since they were made wards of court when their parents were sent back to India. And police in Jersey are examining what they believe may be the remains of Nicholas and Elizabeth who are believed to have been murdered on the island six years ago. The couple's sons, Roderick and Mark have been accused of their murders. Yesterday Roderick, a former army officer who was flown back to Jersey at the weekend after fighting extradition from Gibraltar, went with police to an area where it's thought the bodies had been buried. And the weather, tonight starting cloudy, becoming drier later on tomorrow. [] Radio Nottingham news, it's five past four. [jingle] [music] [speaker008:] Great Shirley Bassey and Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me. Did you know that she started her career in? At the Olympia, she appeared at the Olympia. In er in variety. Many many years ago did Shirley Bassey. Told me about it once she did. Never been on the programme though. We carry on through till four thirty with the calls and if you'd like to take part in our phone-in, the number to ring is. At four thirty John's here. [speaker001:] [music] Oh yes my old beauty, it's all getting back to normal now. About as normal as could be with me. My name's John and I'm here with the teatime show this afternoon, just after Dennis, at half past four. And Paul is gonna be on. No relation and it's not the fella who's been to Memphis Tennessee to see Graceland either. He's the chief executive of the one of the biggest advertising agencies in the country, he's coming in to talk about the thirty something phenomena here in the nineties now. And also joining us poet Michael with a bit of poetry as well. It's all to come on the teatime show this afternoon. [music] [speaker008:] Cor he's in the mood int he. John [LAUGHTER] with teatime. Invitation you can't refuse there. That's at four thirty on. Calls through till then if you'd like to have a chat. Martin of Carlton. Hello. [Geoff:] Hello. [speaker008:] Yes Martin. [Geoff:] Yeah. Er what is right erm it's er like a special word like for erm your okay? Er what it is, I'm a music writer right? [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] Okay and erm when Dennis was on okay about a week ago [speaker008:] Mm. [Geoff:] right erm he mentioned something about erm my friend Paul, okay he had a conversation about when my dog goes in my garden an and he does a doggy-do. [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] Okay. Now apparently what happened is I went up to him and said look I might have to do something with it. So I did actually, I t actually turned it into a ro er song you see. [speaker008:] You've turned [Geoff:] I turn the doggy-do song about the dog [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] Into a song. [speaker008:] You've turned doggy-do into a song? [Geoff:] That's right, I've actually erm what it is, I write music okay? Using the Amiga Five Hundred okay, er stripped it down, I sampled it and I actually made a song, a complete song, and it's finished okay? Also I done a a twelve inch version [speaker008:] Based on the call that we had onto the programme? [Geoff:] Yes, about the doggy-do. Remember, my dog goes in your garden. [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] I did a a complete song and it's finished, right and I was thinking of actually erm seeing my mate in London who'd get it cut on vinyl record. [speaker008:] And make a commercial record? [Geoff:] Yeah. [speaker008:] So I do I get a percentage? [Geoff:] Of course. If you er give me your permission. [speaker008:] We Well can you sing it to us? [Geoff:] Er well I can't really sing it to you, cos it's on tape at the moment. But it's erm the only way to do it is erm to bring the tape in to your erm into Nottingham station itself, you know the er radio station. [speaker008:] We well can't you sort of give us an idea of what it's about, the words and things you know and [Geoff:] It's erm it's about well you could [speaker008:] There's no rude words in it are there? [Geoff:] Oh no no no. No there's no rude words in it at all. [speaker008:] I mean do you think it'll be a top ten hit? [Geoff:] I dunno it might be. It's er it's funny. It's very very funny because I actually laughed about it when I listened to it on tape first of all and I felt well maybe [speaker008:] And have you, who's sung it, you? [Geoff:] No it's er see see the thing it's the song right. It's like talking. You're talking and Paul's talking and I actually did something with it, I actually turned it into a song. With my erm instrument playing at the background. [speaker008:] Really? [Geoff:] Yes, its a bit like rapping yeah. [speaker008:] We whose voice is it? [Geoff:] Well there's Dennis's voice and Paul's voice. [speaker008:] Is it? [Geoff:] Yes. [speaker008:] And ha you got a recording of it there? [Geoff:] No. [speaker008:] Can we not hear a little bit of it now? [Geoff:] Well no because what I did I actually gave a copy to er to Paul okay, this is er ja erm. [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] Okay, now it's got two versions, it's got the first version which is a short version okay? [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] It's er the title song is er and the second version which is a remix version which I've done, which I was working on last night. Now the song took five hours to do [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] Okay a and erm [speaker008:] Bu but I mean if you use if you use the voices that you heard,i it wasn't in rhyme or anything. [Geoff:] I know but it's the way I did it.... And y y you will understand as soon as you hear it. It's it's it's really unbelievable. [speaker008:] Is it? [Geoff:] Yeah, incredible cos a lot of people said already, like they've heard it and they think it's amazing.... You know. And no only that it's you've got w one or the Twelve Hundred..., it's four o'clock. [music] [speaker008:] theWh Wh what's the Amiga Five Hundred? [Geoff:] It's the erm oh what it is right it's a computer. P C personal computer yeah. [speaker008:] A musical computer. [Geoff:] Well it's not just a music computer it's, everyone uses a [speaker008:] So what's what's your occupation Martin, are you a songwriter? [Geoff:] Erm well not as such as a songwriter, I mean I do that yes but I'm my occupation I'm a self-employed window cleaner. [speaker008:] but Martin you can't do a song about doggy-dos. Can you? [Geoff:] Course you can. I've done one. [speaker008:] so can I hear it? [Geoff:] You can hear it yeah, but the only way to hear it [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] is for me to bring it in. [speaker008:] Have you got it on a reel to reel tape? [Geoff:] Yes. [speaker008:] I'd like to hear it. [Geoff:] Yeah. Now listen you got erm a have ya? [speaker008:] I don't know wha but I'm not technically minded, I don't know what we've got here. [Geoff:] Well erm a Walkman what people carry around? [speaker008:] I don't think we've got one of them. [Geoff:] Or or erm what they call those music things you know like erm it's got a cassette, tape cassette and a radio and you know people [speaker008:] What, hi-fi thing? [Geoff:] Yeah that's right and you put a tape in don't you? [speaker008:] Well I think yes I think we can play cassettes I think. [Geoff:] That's good because I'll bring you a copy in [speaker008:] Yes. [Geoff:] Okay now if you think it's good, funny [speaker008:] Mm, yeah. [Geoff:] okay, I'll contact my mate in London [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] okay and they'll get it cut onto vinyl. [speaker008:] And we could make a number one. [Geoff:] Yeah, who knows? Because [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] its a and partly right it was done before. But not the same thing what I'm doing you see. Erm two guys it was in the Amiga format, two guys right [speaker008:] Yeah. [Geoff:] actually made it in the charts using two Amigas but I'm only using the one m one Amiga. [speaker008:] Mm. Well this is all you know I I don't understand anything about computers and things. And normally if I get near a computer it goes wrong. Computers hate me. [Geoff:] Well sometimes they hate me too, you get a virus on it you know and it crashes doesn't it? [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] Does it? I don't know, I don't know. And I don't know anything technical at all I mean just, I just turn a knob here and open the microphone and that's it you know. [Geoff:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Alright well I'll like to hear it. When you gonna bri when can you bring it in? [Geoff:] Well I can bring it in erm er let's see. I can bring i in today if you wish. Or that's too late [speaker008:] Well no I'm here till till five [Geoff:] Five o'clock? [speaker008:] Yeah. Half past four to five you can bring it in. I'd like to hear it. [Geoff:] Yeah alright. I'll tell y what I'll I'll bring i about five o'clock. [speaker008:] Yeah okay. [Geoff:] And what I need to do I'll I'll catch a taxi at my place and I'd do a copy and then bring it in. [speaker008:] Er well I don't want you to go to any expense Martin, I mean [Geoff:] No I'm not going to expense, I can afford it I assure you. [speaker008:] Can you? [Geoff:] Yes. [speaker008:] Are you wealthy? [Geoff:] Wealthy, I wish I was. Er I mean one maybe one day I will if if it makes a hit eh [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] That's right yeah and we could both be wealthy couldn't we? Yeah be good that. Alright Martin I'll see you later. [Geoff:] I'll see you later anyway. I'll [speaker008:] Okay yeah [Geoff:] I'll ask the, when I go there I'll just say who I am and then [speaker008:] Yes. [Geoff:] we'll sort it out okay? [speaker008:] Okay. Cheers. [Geoff:] Bye. [speaker008:] Could be interesting. See me now in the top ten. Iris of Stapleford. [speaker002:] Hello Dennis. [speaker008:] Yes Iris. [speaker002:] You've been talking about doggy-dos I'm gonna talk to you about my dog. [speaker008:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Do you remember Christmas time. Er I was t I told you about Victoria who was in the pantomime? [speaker008:] Oh is she the one that was with the er magician? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] It was erm er er was it an old English sheepdog? [speaker002:] Old English sheepdog. [speaker008:] And he was with the magician and he made her disappear. [speaker002:] Yes that's right. [speaker008:] No he made her appear. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker008:] Yes I remember. [speaker002:] Well she's just been in er Longeaton Operatic Society playing the dog in Annie for a week. [speaker008:] Really? [speaker002:] Yes [speaker008:] So she's star struck int she? [speaker002:] Yes she's fantastic. [speaker008:] Cos, how did the magician work out at the Theatre Royal in Nottingham in the pantomime last year? [speaker002:] How you mean how did it work out? [speaker008:] Well did it how many how many performances did you do? [speaker002:] She did thirty two. [speaker008:] Did she? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Never put a foot wrong? [speaker002:] No she was very good. [speaker008:] Have you been in touch with that magician since? [speaker002:] No we haven't actually, no. [speaker008:] I wonder what I wonder what's happened cos he's er he's from Leicester wasn't he? [speaker002:] Yeah, we kno I've forgotten now where he was playing as er we know where his summer season was but I can't just can't remember. [speaker008:] Er he was very good. [speaker002:] He was good. Very good. [speaker008:] Ever so good. Oh so you [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] what's your sheepdog called? [speaker002:] Victoria. [speaker008:] Victoria of course yes Victoria. So she's just [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah [speaker008:] done Annie? [speaker002:] Annie for the Longeaton er Operatic Society. [speaker008:] And was she good again? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] Never put a foot wrong? [speaker002:] Well you know wha when I knew what she had to do, I thought well erm she had to walk on by herself to Annie. [speaker008:] That's right, it was an acting part wasn't it? [speaker002:] Yes because er they'd found these stray dogs and she says I'll look after her and then she sang a song t to my dog. [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker002:] Then the policeman come on and said, is that your dog? You know er or is it a stray? And then later on the script she ha to say he had to say to her well, call her, you leave her and if she doesn't come to you that's not your dog and take her to the pound and have her put down. [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker002:] But of course we were you know crossing our fingers and she went to her every time. [speaker008:] Did she? [speaker002:] But actually I had her for half an hour to the commands and everything. [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Cos she's obedience trained. [speaker008:] So when's your next starring role? [speaker002:] Well she's resting between [speaker008:] Oh resting. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] Has she got an agent? [speaker002:] Wish she had. Really do. Yeah. [speaker008:] Is she is she a real Dulux old English sheepdog? [speaker002:] She's a real Dulux she's beautiful [speaker008:] She really is? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] Is she? Long coat and everything? [speaker002:] Long coat she looks lovely. [speaker008:] You don't take the coat off? [speaker002:] No. [speaker008:] I do think it's a pity when [speaker002:] No. [speaker008:] people take the coat off [speaker002:] No. [speaker008:] of an old English sheepdog. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] I hate to see that I must say. [speaker002:] Yeah. Then she had to run across the stage on her own. [speaker008:] Did she? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] And she did that, how many performances were you there? [speaker002:] Erm we did every night and twice on Saturday. [speaker008:] Did you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] And never put a foot wrong. [speaker002:] It was lovely absolutely marvellous. [speaker008:] Gotta be good. How old is she now? [speaker002:] She's two. [speaker008:] Is she? [speaker002:] Two years of age. [speaker008:] Oh [speaker002:] But I belong to the Derby dog training club and also Sheila I go to training. [speaker008:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] And we go to agility with her. [speaker008:] So she's really well behaved anyway? [speaker002:] Oh she's yes she's lovely. And it's all done by kindness you know. [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's all done by. [speaker008:] And did they do good business at the er Longeaton [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker008:] Annie? [speaker002:] Yeah it was lovely. [speaker008:] Ah. [speaker002:] It was really nice. [speaker008:] Alright well tell us when she's next on. [speaker002:] Yes I will. [speaker008:] Alright love. [speaker002:] Right. Bye. [speaker008:] Bye. Hey Victoria really is a star int she? Erm now we've got a oh a message, is anyone going to Albania or Bosnia or Rumania? There's a a big bag of blankets and warm clothing needs to be taken from Nottingham. Phone if you can help. Anyone going to Albania or Bosnia or Rumania? A big bag of blankets and warm clothing needs to be taken from Nottingham. Phone if you can help.. Robert of Mansfield... Robert... Hello Robert [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] Yes there you are. [John:] Er I've organized a children's Christmas party, it's called Christmas party. Er is. [speaker008:] Mm. [John:] Er tickets are a pound each. It's on Sunday the fifth of December at Mansfield Leisure Centre. And er we we're in need of er raffle prizes and things like that and if anyone wishes tickets they can er reach me on. Now all the proceeds are going to Fiona appeal. [speaker008:] Yeah. So it's a Christmas party [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] on the fifth of December, Sunday the fifth of December at the Mansfield Leisure Centre, [John:] Yeah. [speaker008:] pound to get in. [John:] Yeah. [speaker008:] It's Christmas party, it's for children? [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] Pound a ticket [John:] Er and adults er adults er cos we're holding a Christmas raffle and [recording ends]

[speaker001:] [theme music] British pits are the safest in the world, but in the future could that record be under threat? Tonight on Public Eye evidence that vital monitoring equipment has been sabotaged by men who were under pressure to keep up productivity. In the fight to make our pits competitive, is the cost of coal the safety of miners? [theme music] [music] Bilsthorpe colliery, scene of the worst pit accident in Britain for more than a decade. Three men were crushed to death under seven thousand tonnes of rock. [music] David the under manager had died, a hero trying to warn his colleagues. He left a pregnant wife and shattered family. [speaker002:] She's so young, she's twenty one, she's got a bairn on the way, eighth month, they had everything to live for, everything. Just snatched away, snatched away. [music] [speaker003:] I was always worried when he went to work, but y you don't think your husband's going to go to work in the morning at five o'clock and never come home again. [music] [Phil Parry:] In all six men had been trapped by the fall. Rescuers worked through tonnes of rock for more than twelve hours to free the miners. The conditions were appalling. [speaker005:] As you went in to the head end where the roof bolts were still intact, it was hard to imagine that approximately forty six metre, fifty metre of gate had just come in one go. Erm, I've never seen anything like it in my life. I hope I never do again. If you can imagine your front room full of concrete, erm, one minute your sat there watching the telly, the next minute your front room's full of concrete, that is just what it was like. The the gate itself, the driveage was totally obliterated. There was nothing left. [Phil Parry:] Like two other pits in Nottinghamshire, this driveage was cut skin to skin or immediately next to old workings. Roof bolts were the only support. [drilling noise] A special exemption certificate was issued to allow them. The mines inspectorate later cleared them of the cause, usually though they're used where there are thick coal walls or pillars. Skin to skin can be more cost efficient because the pillars themselves are extracted. [drilling noise]... Normally the roof bolted sections would rest on coal pillars sometimes fifty metres wide. But here the health and safety executive had granted the exemption to allow roof bolts right next to the old working. For over four hundred metres there was nothing separating the new driveage from the caved in section apart from some wooden props. There was a huge movement of rock above the old coal face when the roof came in. [speaker006:] A lot of the men are very suspicious about the roof bolting system, how easily the certificates have been given. Erm now the th H S C is saying that erm it shouldn't have gone skin to skin and they've stopped skin to skin in other headings. Maybe they should have had foresight and er this wouldn't have happened at Bilsthorpe. [Phil Parry:] But they've cleared roof bolts as a cause. [speaker006:] Well they've got to clear roof bolts. They are the way forward now for the British mining industry erm they've been coming in very steadily and now they are at virtually every pit in the country. Erm it is the only way, they've told us, we can get our cost down to compete with the world market. [Phil Parry:] The mines inspectorate have admitted to Public Eye, the roof bolting method next to old workings underground made Bilsthorpe a different case from normal, but they stress the system was carefully examined before it was allowed. To some mining experts it's also a clear sign that exemptions are being given too easily. [music] One inspector, now retired, believes the Bilsthorpe exemption should never have been granted. Chris thinks roof bolts should only be allowed where the section's are supported by thick coal pillars. [Chris:] The idea of a roadway supported on either side by a coal pillar and supported in the er in the beam of the roof er by er roof bolts making that beam stronger, so that the sides will support the beam, is a good one. And in the right circumstances er it need not be be criticized, but the circumstances have to be right for it. There has to be good coal pillar support on either side and there has to be a competent roof. [Phil Parry:] Those were not the circumstances at Bilsthorpe, but the mines inspectorate insist they were right to allow the roof bolting in the tunnel, or narrow driveage that's despite the fact that on one side instead of a good coal pillar, only wooden props supported the roof. Narrow driveage doesn't necessarily mean then that there are coal pillars either side. [speaker008:] Narrow driveage means what it says, a narrow driveage [Phil Parry:] Does it mean that [speaker008:] It means it's not wide. [Phil Parry:] Does it mean that there would ordinarily be coal pillars either side. [speaker008:] No it means that it isn't a wide driveage it means it's a narrow one. In most cases it would have pillars either side. [Phil Parry:] Coal pillars? [speaker008:] Yes. [Phil Parry:] But not in this case at Bilsthorpe. Does that not return then to our point that exemptions are being granted more freely? [speaker008:] Well they are not being granted more freely,th [LAUGHTER] when a an an exemption is granted, the inspector, the inspector, who grants the exemption has got to say that he is satisfied that the health and safety of the workforce will not be jeopardized. Nobody, I will suggest to you Mr Parry, nobody will say that unless he is convinced that er what he is doing is correct, nobody. [Phil Parry:] For miners today the productivity push has changed the face of the industry. [speaker001:] If one pit had a bad patch another pit would cover it,th them days have gone now it's er one pit against another. [mine noise] They want production now. The more production the better it is for them and better to sell the pits off. [mine noise] At the end of the day it's money. It's production and money. Safety is coming second. [mine noise] [Phil Parry:] British coal deny that. They decline to be interviewed but in a statement to us said, this year, productivity has increased while the accident rate has fallen. Yet at Bilsthorpe, British coal's critics believe productivity pressure believe played a crucial part. But we can disclose another longer term threat to the health of miners, which is also blamed on the push for productivity. It's a threat which puts miners at greater risk of contracting crippling lung diseases. [hospital sounds] After forty years underground, Len is a tragic result of old style mining in conditions thick with coal dust. [Len:] I'm short of breath, I ain't got no energy, listless, I can't walk twenty paces without a rest, so. There's not much they can do, there's no there's no new chests in the hospital to give out, nor an extension to life, so all I can do is try and cope. [music] [Phil Parry:] For Britain's three quarters of a million miners in the nineteen thirties and forties, dust was a massive problem. But by the sixties, after extensive research, the deadly disease was finally brought under control. [speaker010:] This was achieved by using er dust measuring apparatus, that was safe down a mine, didn't cause explosions. And er that er was placed in a certain particular position in relation to the coal face, so that it was er a standard method of measuring the concentration of dust in the atmosphere where the men worked. [Phil Parry:] So dust samplers have been instrumental in bringing pneumoconiosis under control. [speaker010:] That's right and the understanding of what was necessary. [Phil Parry:] These vital machines are used at coal faces and driveways. Dust is drawn in through vents and collected in filters. The filter is analyzed by the pit and regular check samples are analyzed at independent laboratories. If the samples are above certain limits, the district underground can be shut down. But we have evidence that these gravimetric machines have been sabotaged in some of Britain's pits, so they give false low readings. The Selby coal field is the jewel in the crown of British coal. Coming on stream through the eighties, they've achieved their target producing ten million tonnes of coal a year. [mine noise] There are five pits in the complex taking coal to a central depot. The Whitemoor pit was one of the first three mines in Britain to reach a production figure of one million tonnes per year. Gary has been a pit deputy at Whitemoor for four years. [car noise] Last summer on a routine check of his district, he noticed something wrong with one dust sampler. [speaker001:] I grabbed hold of the gravimetric to turn it round to look for the the switch which is on other side. I noticed the filters were sm smeared and it's like a smear on the filter, so I had a close inspection, found that they were all actually clogged up with what appeared to be superglue. [Phil Parry:] So, what was going through your mind when you found this sampler with glued up vents? [speaker001:] I I couldn't believe it really I w Who would do such a You know, why? And er I were mad as well because somebody was somebody were falsifying records and Well my lungs and my life and the mens life as well. [Phil Parry:] Other samplers were found here where readings for correct working conditions were impossible to gauge. It was discovered they too had been sabotaged. This time by the insertion of a thick filter inside the machine itself. [speaker010:] We had to remove the baffle plate and in there was a piece of gauze, that's the inside cloth, cut to size so it fit in nice. It wasn't until you actually turned the machine and and actually stared in to the slots that you could see the gauze. So if if nobody was looking for it or if they weren't used to the machines, examining the machines, they wouldn't know it was there. [Phil Parry:] And what would be the effect of that gauze? [speaker010:] That gauze would prevent I'd say ninety nine percent of any dust going through it. [Phil Parry:] We've examined British coals own figures for dust sampling in Britain's mines. In driveages the routine samples taken by the pit are lower in every single case than the samples taken and checked by independent laboratories used by British coal. In the case of the Selby complex, the independent statistics are more than two and a half times higher. British coal in response said they've led the world in dust monitoring and any irregularities in samples are immediately investigated. We spoke to one miner who admitted tampering with samplers in another pit to Whitemoor. We've protected his identity because he fears the sack for speaking out. Any method is used that could stop dust getting in to them. Using small bits of foam or anything that would stop it getting in there. To my knowledge I know that it's happening in at least half a dozen mines. It's being done up and down the country as well as round our vicinity of mining. I've talked to other men who've fiddled samples, you have to go to course about laws, rules, regulations to do with dust and once lads got talking it comes out how it's happening. [music] For experts who've spent a career bringing pneumoconiosis under control, these revelations are deeply disturbing. It's a clear breech of regulations and reverses work done on health and safety underground. [speaker002:] This of course is a very serious matter. Er if your safety in your mines, from the point of view of the miners health, is dependent upon keeping below a certain limit of dust exposure. If your not measuring the dust exposure levels correctly then er you're likely to expose the men to dangerous conditions. [Phil Parry:] Miners know the pressure is on to increase the British Coal's competitiveness and save their jobs. But the sanctions imposed on a pit with high dust readings could be serious. The mine district could be shut down for three months. Basically we were told to do it, and if we didn't do it we'd got us money dropped. We had threats of being moved or we were sacked. If a driveage your main driveage is found to be above the legal limit after a series of checks, in theory it should be shut until it's sorted out. But it never is. I've never yet known a coal face or a driveway closed because of too much dust. Work is always just carried on with the dust samples fiddled. It's all down to pressure to keep production going and also if you do everyone perfectly rightly you run the risk of closing the mine, or putting six or seven hundred men on the dole. [speaker008:] Unless I know about it there's nothing I can do about it is there? [Phil Parry:] Well now you know about it Mr, what do you intend to do? [speaker008:] Well, well when you tell me where it is I'll do something about it. [Phil Parry:] What might you do? [speaker008:] Well where is it? [Phil Parry:] It's in Yorkshire. It's in the the Selby group. [speaker008:] Right, I shall take it up with the area director in n in ne Yorkshire as we would normally do. In fact I think this has actually been dealt with if I'm er [Phil Parry:] It's it's been dealt with in Whitemoor, you know about that but also in another pit. [speaker008:] Well we I would be more surprised that er er in fact I don't think I'm sure that it's not happening on a on a on a er wide basis. [speaker001:] I think that's it's a liberty that shouldn't be taken that they're playing with miners health and their lives. And anything that's not on the up and up is, well I think it's detrimental to a mans life. Not only to his health but is to his life and I mean er cutting his life time short, my opinion. [violin music] [Phil Parry:] Len 's mining area the Rhondda now has no pits, when once it gave work to a hundred thousand men. Throughout the industry now, the cut throat competition is keener than ever. With last weeks announcement that thirty one British pits are again facing closure. [mine noise] Last year the government brought American Mining consultants Boyds, in to areas like South Wales where they met fierce local hostility. [speaker003:] The valleys will have nobody working at all, there'll be no one paying insurances, no income tax, so where is the money going to come for future pensions for people right through the country. Where's the common sense of the government? And I do hope that they will change their mind and bring work to the valleys. [speaker005:] I I really can't answer your question mam [speaker003:] You can't answer me. [Phil Parry:] Crucial to the Boyds' plan was the introduction of more American mining techniques to boost production and bring down costs.... In evidence to a common select committee the consultants stressed the importance of newer, cost efficient, methods. Exemptions from safety laws to use them was encouraged. [speaker006:] As far as roof bolting and er the er length of advance without supports, current legislation's very restrictive, I think it has to be opened upwards demonstrated by scientific evidence to be successful. To allow you to take full cuts with the continuous mines. [Phil Parry:] One of the key techniques that Boyds wanted to encourage was deep cut or, as it's known in the U S, extended cut. Deep cut means cutting further without any support at all, making it a faster more cost effective way of mining. Now in Britain, mine inspectors have started granting exemptions for cutting up to six point six metres without support. But in America where the extended cut method of mining is taken further, their underground accident record per man shift is four times ours. [Chris:] It's twelve thirty I'm with news. The strike at the coal mine in Sullivan county drags on and on. Two hundred four days today, no end in sight. [Phil Parry:] In Indiana seven hundred miners are on strike. They want safer conditions below ground. Deep or extended cut accounts for half of all deaths and roof collapses in American mines. For the company it means grater profits, but to these men it means more dangerous conditions. [speaker008:] The main thing here concerning is extended cuts with the coal operators is er the buzz word of the coal industry, competitiveness, we have to have extended cuts in order to be competitive. And right now the term competitiveness is used to basically get by safety regulations and anything else concerning safety. [Phil Parry:] At this mine two years ago a man was buried and later died after a massive roof fall in an extended cut section. [Len:] When we got there one o one of the other boys was was already there with him and he was covered from about his waist down with coal and er we uncovered him and gave him as comfortable as we could get him until we got the stretchers and everything mobilize him and get him out. [Phil Parry:] The miner Joe had always kept details about the underground conditions hidden from his family. [speaker010:] He wouldn't tell me what was going on down there because he didn't want to worry me as far as the safety conditions at that particular mine. Erm, and when they did complain to somebody, like a company man you know well that's all the farther it went. There was nothing done to correct it. The shock o of losing someone you've been married to for twenty one years, we grew up together, he was my best friend, he wasn't just my husband he was my best friend. You lose all of that. You can't get it back, no matter what else happens in your life that that part is gone, so a part of your life dies along with his. [speaker008:] The fatality involving Joe was an example of what we consider as one of the most dangerous aspects of extended cuts. That when you expose great portions of the roof, unsupported, then you increase the possibilities of a roof fall which comes back on through to the supported area of the roof and then injures or kills someone. [Phil Parry:] British mines operate at far greater depth than in America. Extending their techniques in our conditions have prompted fears among some mining experts. [speaker010:] If you use techniques which are in inappropriate to those conditions then you could compromise safety because of the stability of the mine working. [Phil Parry:] And what about the American safety record, is is it very different to to that over here? [speaker010:] Yes, the American safety record is worse than ours. They tend to have far more accidents er in their mines than we do here in the United Kingdom. [Phil Parry:] But the Americans are coming and it's causing great alarm in some circles. For union leaders such as Peter of the pit deputies, cost efficient techniques like deep cut, threaten the safety of men working underground. [speaker001:] They push very much the deep cut system in the U K. Deep cut system in in America means that the machine goes forward a distance before any supports are set at all erm and then the supports do set roof falls. We did not object this without evidence of reasons for objection and we've been in disc discussion with the erm American miners. Eighteen percent of their mines have this so called deep cut system, but has more than fifty percent of all the fatal accidents in those eighteen percent of the mines. The same eighteen percent of mines which has deep cut has sixty three percent of all frictional ignitions. That's ignitions of methane gas. Now for us that causes concern because we have gas in mines, we don't recon recognize the Americans as having gas in mines. We do, so that's the sort of concerns we have. [Phil Parry:] And how do you know for a fact that they intend to bring these sorts of techniques in to Britain? [speaker001:] They're in. No, they're in. We have mines working six point six metres now. [Phil Parry:] One of those mines in North Wales was singled out for praise by American consultants Boyds. Yet within a few months of starting the technique here two men were badly injured in a roof fall. They'd cut slightly beyond what had been allowed but the report afterwards said the roof would still have come down. [speaker002:] Well I got trapped under er under one of the er rocks that f fell down and then managed to get that off me leg and went to give assistance to er the machine-man, the man on the machine which er trapped as well and er realized then that me leg had me leg was broken so took me down the end of the road and managed to get the stone off the lad and the machine and you got carried in to hospital. [speaker003:] It worries me because these exemptions as to there for example er where thirty nine square metres of roof was permitted to be without support of any kind. Not a roof bolt, not a prop, not an arch girder, er led to a fall of roof. And I no surprise whatever, absolutely no surprise. If you don't support the roof you can expect it to fall and two men were hurt. Erm I'm not in favour of granting exemptions for large area of unsupported roof. It seems to me, that your inviting a loss of roof control. [Phil Parry:] Now the mining industry faces a fresh set of safety laws. New guidelines are sweeping away some old regulations. [choir music] In former mining areas like the Rhondda it's bitterly resented. In a century and a half of mining, hundreds of men have died. Some of the lessons learnt from the accidents were enshrined in safety laws which are now to be scrapped. [music] One of those accidents in eighteen fifty six is deep within local folklore and in the minds of people like former miner Ivor. [speaker001:] Before the colliery explosion they'd been a fire, in a certain district, twenty yards long. It had been reported by the colliery official and er the colliery manager of the time thought it wasn't even important enough to actually stop men going in to that district to work. And they did go in there. The legislation that came out as a result of that then was absolutely sure, you know that it was copper bottom insurances given given that er legislation would prevent accidents of that nature again. The er deputy goes in to the district and he he gives an insurance er by law that that the district is safe. That district is safe for the men to go into. [choir music] [Phil Parry:] The explosion wiped out half of the town's male voice choir. What survived was the crucial safety rule banning work before the entire district is checked. Now a suggested code of practice will kill off the old law. [male choir music] [speaker001:] I better do a check for gas here. It's the first one of many. Nought point four percent, ah that's in order. [Phil Parry:] Only a few years a go the coal board was proud of the work of the pit deputy. One deputy in each district checked conditions were safe and could stop production if they weren't. Now they're to allow maintenance work while the pre-shift inspection is made and the pit deputies role will be divided up. [speaker001:] Suddenly nothing is too trivial to matter. Everything is important. That's how standards are made and kept. [Phil Parry:] In your years as a deputy, have you stopped production because safety was at risk? [speaker006:] E yes, I have. Machinery unfit to do I've stopped it for that. Managers haven't been pleased but I've done it. They're never pleased when you stop er anything what concerns safety. They want you to carry on as normal, but I will not do that at all. While ever I've got the power I will stop it, and that's it. [Phil Parry:] And how will that change? [speaker006:] It will change dramatically. I won't have the power the power will be taken away from me. With these new legislations I have no power what's so ever to do with the safety. [speaker001:] The deputy, the new eyes on eighties. Ah, report by deputy in charge of the district [Phil Parry:] British coal say the new laws and guidelines will strengthen safety requirements underground. But the deputies believe they've been singled out as a obstacle to producing cheaper coal in Britain's pits, in the run up to privatization. [Chris:] You can have profitable mines if you want more fatalities, more accidents and more bad news like Bilsthorpe. Now if you want a coal industry you can have a good coal industry, a profitable one. It's a question of who decides at this point in time with the government that's making the decision that the workers in this country have to accept lower standards in almost anything not just wages and terms of conditions, now safety standards. [speaker001:] Let's look at the system, let's look at the record. This inspectorate has been in being three hundred and fifty years. The accident level in this industry has come down consistently, year, by year, by year, every year. Last year were the lowest on record. We have got to go to work with a lot of of of er tension and pressure on us. To get costs down, to turn more coal, to work more hours, when at the end of the day we don't know if we're going to have a job in in one or two years. Erm it seems very demoralizing an and not fair to the people who are trying to work hard in this industry. To to carve out a living. [Phil Parry:] Bilsthorpe itself could now be a casualty of the closure program, on the drive for a competitive mining industry. But the pace of change has seen the introduction of controversial new techniques and men prepared to sabotage equipment underground. The future for Britain's mines has never looked so black, but some believe the future safety of miners is just as threatened. [theme music] [end of job.]

[speaker001:] [theme music] Tonight, business angels, the private investors who've made millions by backing risk and innovation in partnership with Britain's small entrepreneurs. [speaker002:] I think I do it because... I'm so depressed by the poor performance of professional investment managers in the city, and I hope I can do better than they can. [speaker003:] Then challenge from the North, why tough talking Yorkshire lawyers believe they can take the city's cosy legal world by storm. And in notebook, popular at home but not abroad. Can the British television industry export more?... [bells and then organ, wedding march.] [speaker004:] There are some unusual partnerships being struck throughout the length and breadth of the country. the success of these new relationships could affect Britain's future prosperity. [speaker005:] We have come together to witness the marriage of business angel David pounds sterling, and small business,. [speaker002:] Some observers believe their potential is enormous. [speaker005:] David pound sterling, will you take to be your wife? As a way of life [speaker002:] Of course ceremonies like this aren't real, but the rational behind them is. Rich investors eyeing up prospective business opportunities are being helped byu matchmaking agencies. They've been specially set up to try and ensure a more secure future for Britain's small companies. There are a growing number of private investors known as Business angels, and small businesses. They say the relationship is just like a marriage. Now everyone, the government, the bank of england, the C B I and others are investigating business angels as one alternative way of funding small companies. The upsurge in interest in how small businesses are funded, reflects growing concern that they've been let down by the banks, and the realization that they are the most significant source of employment as the country struggles to emerge from the recession. This company began searching for finance four years ago. Colin came up with the idea for an environmental action cartoon for children's television. They spent four hundred thousand pounds. A further quarter of a million is needed if the company is to survive. Colin feels the traditional financiers can't see the future potential of the environment concept. [cartoon voice over] [speaker006:] I mean we're a typical case, we believe we have something that is wonderfully innovative and capable of succeeding financially in a global market place. It was very difficult to get the venture capitalists and the bankers to take it seriously. [cartoon noises] I think that's a a lamentable state of affairs, and their children, and their children's children are going to have to pay the price for the short-sightedness that's going on now in the ivory towers of the of the city, the the banking institutions and the financial institutions of the country. [cartoon music] [speaker002:] The cartoonists are veterans of the presentation circuit. is just one of band of companies around the country, presenting their business plans to private investors. Here in Cheshire business men are nervously waiting to meet the business angels is whom hands the future of their company might rest. They're coached by experts from, one of five government sponsored projects around Britain. advise small businesses and link them up with private investors. [speaker007:] You're different, you're dynamic, let it come across a bit more about you and you know, what a good team you are and you've cracked it. Try and relax a bit, you know, have a drink at [LAUGHTER] lunchtime even []. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker007:] And just let it come out a bit more. [speaker002:] Arriving as ostentatiously as you'd expect from the seriously wealthy, business angels pump money into private companies in return for shares. Angels already invest between two and four billion pounds in Britain's small businesses. the potential could be up top three times as much. [speaker006:] Hi Ron how're you doing? [Ron:] I'm okay, look big [speaker002:] The directors have developed a comic routine to hammer home their message. [Ron:] property development scheme that I'm involved with, I think you should look at it. [speaker006:] Well that's interesting, but there's a couple of ideas I'd like to run in front of you. [Ron:] Fire away old boy, seeing as it's you. [speaker006:] What do you know about the music industry? [Ron:] No. High risk, no money in music Colin. [speaker006:] I got this great group, super song, just listen to these lyrics. She loves you, yeah, yeah yeah. She loves you, yeah, yeah yeah. With a love like that you know it can't be bad. What do you think of it Ron? [Ron:] No definitely not, that'll never sell. Whoever wrote the lyrics to that should be locked up for an affront to the English language. [speaker001:] [clapping] [clapping] [speaker002:] For companies like, pitching to investors has become virtually a full time job. [Ron:] that's better. thank you ladies and gentlemen for I hope what was a little bit of humour in this long afternoon, er to make a very serious point. We've been developing [speaker002:] They know their survival depends on how well they impress. After a long day of presentations, the angels and the businessmen finally get together in the traditional way. After all the hard work the businesses put in, were the angels impressed? [speaker009:] Well we had eight different presentations, er i warmed, I suppose, to two of them erm was a small engineering company in the motor trade which, while it will never make a fortune will probably make a living and the people seem to need help. [speaker002:] The angels are drawn from all sections of the community. Some are Oxbridge educated former merchant bankers, others came up from the shop floor, but they all have some things in common. They like making money, they like being involved in business, and they love a challenge. [speaker010:] I'm a manufacturer, I like to make things, I like to hold something at the end of day and say that's something that's been created. Er at the same time I'm looking for the chemistry er the feel for those people, er the quality of those people and whether I could work with them and whether they could work with me. [speaker002:] How Britain's small businesses are funded was discussed at a recent national conference of the institute of directors. Its director general Peter believes that they are vital to Britain's prosperity and employment prospects. [speaker001:] There are three million companies in Britain of Which only a thousand employ more than a thousand employees. We all know that job creation comes form the small and medium company sector. It is perhaps not totally coincidental that there are three million unemployed and three million companies and er You could do the arithmetic about what would happen if every company took on one person. Some thing has to be [speaker002:] The I O D surveyed three hundred small companies, the results, exclusively revealed to the money programme, show a severe funding shortage for business start ups. Problems too for companies expanding. There's a lack of funding for schemes between fifty and two hundred and fifty thousand pounds, or even half a million. [speaker001:] People sometimes think that capitalism means stock markets and and and and share holders and what have you. But the most pure expression of capital capitalism is the the harnessing of private money to start private businesses, and a main concern of the institute of course, is that there is such a shortage potentially of capital, in the system, to do that. [speaker002:] This tranquil country scene is close to the Cotswold home of Sir John, a Harvards business graduate, he's one of Britain's most successful business angels. Twelve years ago he invested twenty three thousand pounds in a small local company. It's now worth two and a half million. [machinery noise] The company Sir John bought a fifty percent share in was, it's an engineering firm that produces mechanical devices that help to clear storage silos. In its first year turnover was a modest forty thousand pounds, it's now twelve million. But the success story might never have happened if the entrepreneur with the idea, Ivan, had taken the advice of his bank. [speaker003:] Yeah. Did a little business plan, cash flow forecasts and all that kind of stuff, er basic but erm, in hindsight still quite presentable I th I think. And I took it to my bank manager who I'd been with for God knows, all my life, so nearly twenty years, and er he just laughed me straight out of the room. Straight off. D don b don't be silly, go and get a job, you know. Er h he didn't even look at it. [speaker002:] What do you feel about banks, do you think they know enough about business when it comes down to it. [speaker003:] Oh. I hope my bank manager isn't watching this. No I think they know nothing at all about business. I think they erm kid themselves on that they do because they understand figures and money and that isn't business. [speaker002:] Is this an are where you agree, er Sir John or not not? Yes I I do I think the bank's big mistake is their obsession with security cover erm and I think they ought to develop some expertise in judgement of people's management and entrepreneurial abilities. And in recognizing the potential of a good business. The Midland bank is one of Britain's biggest. In the eighties, banks fell over themselves to lend money. Last year bad debts cost a million pounds a day. Midland's Chief executive Brain acknowledges the problem. [speaker004:] We are risk averse at the moment because we have suffered as you rightly say er so much from bad debts during the recession. Er but in certainly in the case of our bank, er we are most anxious to at least get people in through the door and see if we can find solutions to their problems, find ways of er developing smaller businesses, erm hopefully to reduce the massive unemployment figure that we have in this country. [music] [speaker002:] A restaurant in fashionable Mayfair. [speaker001:] Is everything alright? It's absolutely excellent? [speaker002:] A public relations company is entertaining its clients. There's an old saying that there's not such thing as a free lunch, but this is about as close as you can get. No money changes hands here. But there's still a bill to be settle. [speaker001:] Thank you very much Sir, did you enjoy your meal? It was absolutely excellent. [speaker002:] The company pays using a barter card. It's an updated version of the ancient trade of swapping goods. This is where that trade is organized, the barter exchange in central London. [speaker001:] Erm we've got various requests for mobile phones. We need a restaurant for erm a working breakfast. Zurich, flights to Zurich. Yes we've got er erm eight economy flights. We're after four colour printers. [speaker002:] The organize the exchange of goods. Many companies have spare capacity. Bartering enables them to swap it for other things they need without paying. Easing cash flow problems facing companies financed by bank overdraft. This is a problem that the Institute of Directors has outlined in its survey. Seventy one percent of companies go directly to banks as there first source of financed. But what concerns the I O D is the type of funding the get. Sixty four percent of small businesses are on either overdrafts or short term loans. That, says the I O D, makes them vulnerable to economic down turns. [speaker001:] The key issue that emerges is that many private companies don't actually want what they ought to have, which is more long term loans and more private equity, and less overdrafts and their short term loans. I I think to an extent the bank have in helped small businesses to make this mistake. It has been much easier to give an overdraft than to go through the whole process of studying a plan for the business and coming up with longer term loan financing. Okay Steve can you talk me through the part of Manchester visit in the afternoon. [speaker002:] the government is so concerned about the financing of small businesses that Anthony economic secretary to the treasury, is in charge of a working party examining the issue. He's concerned that banking attitudes may be holding up the recovery. [speaker004:] I do believe that one of the best ways we're going to benefit from the new circumstances I hope of economic stability of low inflation and low taxation, will be to ensure that the provision of capital is made by the principle institutions, namely the banks and the investing institutions. So I expect to see er improvements in confidence backed by greater provision and I like to see that directed at the venture capital, risk capital, long term capital. Rather than the in and out sort of capital which I think is reflected so much by overdraft financing. [speaker002:] This man, John, is the managing director of Reading based electronics firm,. He's got good reason to thank the Midland bank. Now he makes a point of keeping in touch with his local branch. [speaker005:] We're concentrating on the security market place, and we've acquired I think three [speaker002:] When his company was in trouble, the bank swapped his debt for shares. [speaker001:] We are quite keen to look at equity options, debt equity swaps er perhaps talk a to the government about an extension of the business expansion scheme, specifically into manufacturing industry er and generally look for innovative solutions, persuade to customers to take loans out instead of overdrafts. Er fix their interest rates over a longer term period. That's not always attractive cos initially that's more expensive for them, but er they ha they have to er come to us with an open mind as well. [speaker002:] Back at the board of directors are meeting. For Sir John and Ivan bank funding isn't on the agenda. But Sir John is as interested in how the company's money is spent as any bank manager. why are you using an agency rather than advertising in name? [speaker003:] Cos you've got to pay the agent a fee for finding it for you. [speaker002:] As both company chairman and business angel, Sir John plays an active role. He and Ivan are equal partners. [speaker003:] The fifty percent share holding has worked well, because what it means no one person can impose their will, no one has control, you have to resolve problems by agreement, resolve disagreements without coming to blows. [speaker002:] Angels don't always work miracles, this deserted farm house was where Mike n hoped to build a successful cider business. Revisiting it for the first time, he recalls his high hopes when an angel with marketing skills appeared. But Mike was forced to sell out when the angel wasn't up to the job. [speaker006:] Even though we had explained to him in a small business initially, he was going to be the salesman, he was going to be the marketing director, he was going to be everything. It still hadn't really filtered through to him until he was actually on the ground working, and he just really couldn't cope with that. [speaker002:] The business that Mike began has now transferred to new premises, it no longer makes cider but apple juice. The new owner is Lawrence, he shares Mike 's reservations about business angels. [speaker007:] A business relies on a driving personality taking it forward, and the confusion about getting somebody on board who is working with you in the business and who is putting money board, is that they feel to some extent, proprietorial to that business, and you can find that that will result in those individuals who have done that tearing apart the business because they are trying to go in different directions. [speaker002:] At the moment there are a number of publications such as Link, Capital Exchange, venture Capital Report, which try to put investors and companies in touch with each other. The government and the banks are considering setting up a national data system of business angels, it would probably have to be government funded. [speaker001:] Who who are your [speaker002:] The organization with the longest track record in matching angels to companies is the publisher of venture capital report. B C R executive, Hamish, is sceptical about the banks' sudden endorsement of angels. [Ron:] In terms of their they the core business, they are reliant on on on medium size businesses, so they need to ensure that in the future that there will be businesses there er t er to be their clients, so I think er it's a sort of enlightened self interest. And er as they're not in the business of providing risk capital, they have to find er some poor mug or opportunist to do so, and I think this is why increased attention is being focused on on business angels as a source. [speaker002:] Are the banks simply though, trying to shift responsibility so you think, erm I I I think that the the sceptic in me would would say that they are trying to abnegate a certain amount of of responsibility. [speaker001:] I think their is a problem with the first two or three years of a business' life. It's the most difficult time, it's full of frustrations, they're growing, er they need finance that they haven't quite thought about, there are surprises during that period. So there undoubtedly a temptation to think, well let's not bother about that, let's pick them up when they are two years old and they've survived this particularly hazardous first period. But in my view that's quite nonsensical. What we ha If we don't support them during that period, how on earth do we get them to be two years old? [speaker002:] Barclays bank has carried out its own research into small business. David says funding problems have been over emphasized. The real issue he says is skills. [speaker009:] Well our research has shown that something like eighty percent of all small business's don't undertake any formal training within their first three years of operation and more than sixty percent do not do any formal business planning or look further ahead than one month from today. The effect is that the survival rate of small businesses is significantly adversely affected by this. [speaker010:] Nobody's called in? Okay. [speaker002:] Mike now travels the country as a consultant to small companies. The lessons he's learnt he did so the hard way. He agrees that skills inside small companies have to improve. [speaker010:] The man is very good at making widgets, he makes widgets, but he doesn't tell his bank that he's doing well. The bank automatically thinks he's doing badly because they don't hear anything from him. So it's a matter of keeping the bank advised the whole time. [speaker002:] Perhaps Mike business would have survived with a tax incentive to put money in. The idea appeals to his clients. Research by Barclays bank suggest companies do favour tax breaks. [speaker010:] One idea that were quite attracted to er would be the formation of a business TESSA. This could operate rather like a personal TESSA and would be a er tax free savings account, which would allow a small business to save for a perhaps a major piece of machinery in a tax free environment. [speaker002:] The I O D also believe that there must be tax incentives to invest in Britain's small businesses, but they'd like to see them extended to include the general public. [speaker001:] We can all go and invest in PEPs, we can all go and invest in pension plans and all of that gets taken by the institutions and put into the stock market. What we need is is equal incentives to take our money and put that money into private companies. So I we would like to see erm tax incentives for investment in the equity of unquoted companies and we'd also like to see gains tax incentives for the realization of those investments a when when they pay it off. [speaker002:] But tax breaks are outside the remit of the governments working party. Not surprising considering government's fifty billion pound public borrowing requirement. [speaker001:] If you're urging the case for tax breaks again, then I think that's all too easy and tha that is not what I am advertising or seeking representations for. Of course there will be calls for that. I want to look much more generally at the supply side, at the provision of capital. The liquidity of capital. This is much more about the structural provision of finance, it is about the understanding by financial institution of the businesses they back. I think you'll like this place actually er [speaker002:] Whilst there's a lot of talk about how to help small businesses, the angels and their advisors are out there doing it. This company of ex Roll Royce workers has had five offers of finance and is in the enviable position of choosing the partner that suits them. On the back of their expected thirty thousand pound cash injection they've already taken on extra staff. For this successful local experiment to have national implications there has to be a fundamental shift in attitudes. [speaker001:] The small companies themselves have got to understand what they need to grow is long term financing and that's cash in the business. For the finance community, what they've got to do, too, is take a longer term view about projects and give the companies an opportunity to to grow and ride the pitfalls and the the peaks and troughs. [wedding music] [speaker002:] If the marriage between small businesses and financiers is to have a happy ending, the couple need more than a guiding hand from a few enthusiasts dedicated to their cause. The business angels can't do it all themselves. They need the support of the government. The banks too must get involved and everyone needs to work together because if the marriage proves to be a barren one it will affect the wealth of the nation for generations to come. [music]

[speaker001:] [music] British commercial law is amongst the most expensive in the world. With new firms in the North of England under cutting their city rivals, is the writing on the wall for one of London's most traditional professions. [music] [speaker002:] Behind the city calm a battle is raging. A business worth three billion pounds a year is at stake. The attack is being spear headed from his new London offices by lawyer Paul. [Paul:] There will be firms who are practising today who will probably figure in the er top one hundred in the city who in my opinion will not be practising in that shape or form three years from now. [speaker001:] I think they've got their cost structures er a a little bit out of line and I have to be honest that I think that some of them have thought that er all you have to do is, you know, keep a brass plate outside your door for fifty years and the work would roll in. [speaker002:] Paul is a managing partner of a controversial firm of Yorkshire lawyers,. Champagne has long been used by the city institutions to woo clients. It's now become the weapon of the invaders from the North to sell law.... Since moving in to the heart of the city last year,has become the talk of the legal world. Paul is a lawyer other lawyers love to hate, but his is only one of a number of Yorkshire law firms that are sending a chill down the back of the London legal establishment. They may scoff and call them Yob and co, but the revolution that these firms have brought to the legal market is probably here to stay. [music] The city law firms all clustered within the boundaries of the square mile have dominated the market in legal services. Like other city institutions they grew fat on the back of the eighties boom. Even when the recession hit there was money to be made from liquidations and restructurings. is Britain's largest law firm and occupies a plush new building in the city. [speaker004:] We have er one thousand two hundred lawyers in our firm round the world er continuing to develop their skills, continuing to deal with clients on a daily basis to make sure they're able to service those those demands. [speaker002:] , with two hundred and thirty partners, turned over two hundred million pounds last year. The profits averaged out at a quarter of a million pounds per partner. A recent survey showed the big London firms to be the most expensive in the world. They can charge over three hundred pounds an hour for a partner's services, but that's increasingly subject to negotiation. [speaker004:] Clients are not naive, they understand the job that needs to be done. They understand the price that is the market price to be paid for that. It's at the end of the day what you do for them. How you do it and whether you provide real value for money that is the important thing. [music] [speaker002:] This week's London motor show. General motors is promoting it's latest models in face of falling demand in European markets. The recession has made it take a hard look at the cost of law and at the attitude of big London firms that it's used for more than fifty years. Keith heads its U K legal department. [Keith:] They maybe haven't listened to their clients enough, particularly their industrial and commercial clients over the years. I think there was a there tended to be a feeling that value for money was not a a a requirement along with quality. [speaker002:] Why? [Keith:] I think it relates perhaps to the fact that er the city institutions and the city law firms er concentrated on quality and competitiveness, value for money, cost saving wasn't necessary a part of the issue. [speaker002:] And for many of Britain's best known companies the cost of law has become an issue in a way it never was before. [speaker001:] Many years ago you didn't query the fees erm and er that's no longer the case. [speaker002:] Why don't you query the fees? [speaker001:] Well in in th the year that I was brought up in there was a a much more er er traditional fee structure which simply wasn't negotiated in the same way as it is today. [speaker002:] Until recently there wasn't anywhere else increasingly cost- conscious industrial firms could go. [music] That was before the rise of the Yorkshire lawyer. Costs in the north are much lower and local lawyers have bred a hard nosed approach to business. One of the country's fastest growing law firms is. [speaker006:] Leeds has has grown as a financial centre over the last four or five years, probably more than any other city outside London. The law firms within it have been competing very strongly with each other, there are six extremely good law firms in Leeds and their I think that that experience in competition over the last few years will stand them in very good stead. [speaker001:] Yeah it wasn't bad at all. You came came up by train? Yeah [speaker002:] Today the firm's rehearsing a presentation to a major public company which is conducting a beauty parade. It's becoming the fashion among big clients to make lawyers pitch for their custom. [speaker001:] We've er handled nearly ten percent of all U K floats in nineteen ninety three. Some of those have been very substantial, companies coming to the market with er market capitalizations in excess of a hundred million pounds. [speaker002:] It's the beauty parade that's allowed regional firms access to what had been exclusively London business. [speaker006:] Certainly if we're beauty parading against er maybe London firms where perhaps the attitude might be a little bit more than it is from the provincial firms that perhaps are used to having closer relationships with their clients. [speaker002:] And before beauty parades, presumably a lot of these clients you wouldn't even get to meet would you? [speaker006:] Erm no it'd be very difficult to get an opportunity to do so. [speaker002:] It was through holding a beauty parade that I C I discovered the benefits of using a regional firm. The company decided to put all it's litigation work, worth over a million pounds a year, out to tender. It started with a list of city firms, but it soon realized there were other options. [speaker007:] There were only three er criteria when we set out to choose a firm. Er expertise was the first and foremost requirement. Cost effectiveness was the second, and willingness to take some of our staff was the third.... er met all those criteria and they had one additional benefit, their Leeds' base er means that er their centre er their own centre of gravity is very near where I C I's centre of gravity is, up in the north of England. [speaker002:] The northern lawyers haven't been slow to see the marketing potential of providing legal services close to home. This year has done six major floatations of northern companies. The biggest was valued at over one hundred and fifty million pounds. [speaker006:] If you go back seven or eight years ago er the city institutions would be saying to the companies, you know this is a er a major matter in the in the growth of the company and you need you need city representation, you need a firm of city lawyers to deal with it. Erm nowadays that's not the case and erm all the institutions know that there are some damn good firms out in the provinces who can who can provide the service. [speaker002:] But here in London's legal citadel, until recently, has been played down. The strength of the largest city firms stems from the international business that flows through the capital. is Britain's fifth largest legal business. [speaker008:] It's certainly true that er the big regional firms now do a lot of corporate work. But we don't find, if you like at the top end of the corporate finance market, that they are yet as significant a competitor as are er rivals among the leading firms. But do do the city firms think that they will become tough competitors in that market? It depends really what happens to them I think. I think they've built They've opened London offices, many of them, if those offices grow so they acquire the sort of breadth and depth of experience in the relevant areas that the big firms have got and at the moment er they may not have, then of course they'll be more and more competitive. [speaker002:] Because so much of the commercial law trade go through London,have opened up a second front in the capital. Determined to break up what it sees as a cosy cartel, it has already spent over a million pounds on marketing and corporate entertainment. Today's party is to celebrate the floatation of a Mercedes dealership, the client is more than happy with his choice of lawyer. [speaker009:] I know that it was erm very much more cost effective er than we would have got er for similar services from a traditional firm in the city of London. [speaker002:] What sort of saving do you think you've made? [speaker009:] probably about a third overall, with all the various aspects of the transaction in terms of all the legal costs. [speaker002:] And has another trick up it's sleeve. It's been actively recruiting partners out of London law firms, along with their clients. One firm to experience poaching is a second tier London firm,. It's lost two senior partners to Yorkshire firms in little over a year. [speaker001:] They I think are strengthening or er strengthening their position in the market in London by erm er a very sensible strategy of looking for er able people with client following. No doubt its an attack but other firms are doing the same. [speaker002:] They want to take your clients and see you off the map? [speaker001:] Well I don't think its quite er the level of aggression is quite up to that, I'm sure that the market for legal services is now very much more competitive which is a healthy thing, and er if er if we were simply sitting on our hands from the nineteen eighties and not bothering to respond to that kind of challenge then I would be worried about it, but we're not. [speaker002:] For all that there's no denying the distaste felt by many London lawyers for tactics. They've been seen as too aggressive and too greedy. [Paul:] Aggressive? In what sense? Aggressive in terms that we fight in the market place for for clients and that we er then if that's what aggressive means the answer to that is yes. Er in terms of greedy, greedy in what? In that we manage to take good lawyers from other people? That's not greedy, that's just sound business sense. [speaker002:] The city revolution is far from over. This week hopes to emerge with a large Birmingham law firm to strengthen its hand further. The game plan is to grow big enough to threaten even the city giants. With other regional firms joining in the battle for city work, even the biggest London firms have had to cut their fees and shake up their ideas. That in itself could be a lasting monument to the Yorkshire Terrier. [music]

[speaker001:] [music] Michael Heseltine, the president of the board of trade, has found another industry in which to intervene. Next Wednesday, a score of television bigwigs will meet him at a special seminar at the Department of Trade and Industry, part of the D T I's efforts to boost British exports. British television is almost as widely admired abroad as it is at home. Its reputation rests on classy programmes often made as international co-productions like David Attenborough's blockbuster natural history series. [music] Britain used to have a comfortable trade surplus in television programmes. Twenty four million pounds in nineteen eighty five. But by nineteen ninety one, that had turned in to a deficit of a hundred million and one prediction suggests the deficit would have widened dramatically to six hundred and forty million pounds by the end of the decade. Largely because of satellite television with its high number of feature films and U S and Australian programmes. But many British programmes, especially dramas, don't travel well in the opposite direction. British broadcasters fighting a ratings battle at home want shows guaranteed to appeal to British audiences. British producers have little choice but to go for the home market, because the lion share of their budgets comes from the B B C, I T V or Channel Four who commission the programmes in the first place. [speaker002:] The bias erm of British producers towards producing for a British market is likely to persist erm historically it's been very difficult for all but er select minority to achieve significant sells sales overseas. Erm and again I I doubt doubt whether that will disappear over night. [speaker003:] It's a cultural as much as a commercial problem. No amount of government intervention will change it. But Wednesday's meeting could suggest ways to stop things getting worse. The government might offer tax breaks to Britain's beleaguered film industry. Feature films do have export potential even if television programmes don't. And the I T V companies won't miss an opportunity to push for a relaxation of the rules which prevent one large I T V company merging with another. As it is, they say, British broadcasters are far too small to compete effectively in export markets or to resist overseas predators. And the takeover threat doesn't just come from foreign television companies, but from cable companies and even phone companies as well. Thanks to the much talked about convergence of broadcasting telecommunications and computing. American telecom's giants like Bell Atlantic are quite open about their global ambitions. [speaker004:] We absolutely have plans. And we are absolutely having conversations with carriers throughout the world. Not just in England but throughout the world about taking the technology we're developing and the branded services and deploying them on their systems. [speaker003:] And the whole business of convergence raises the intriguing question of who ought to regulate this burgeoning new industry. In Britain neither the independent television commission nor the telephone watchdog, OFTEL, seems entirely appropriate. A single body modelled on the U S federal communications commission would make more sense. And a British F C C would fit much more naturally into the Department of Trade's portfolio, than into that of the department of national heritage, which currently looks after broadcasting. Perhaps Mr Heseltine's sudden interest in television is motivated by more than a simple desire to boost British exports. [theme music]

[speaker001:] mother's house in because my father was in... in the first world war... so my mum had to go to live with my grandmother... and er I was born there... and er then when my father came home we came back to... my mum came back to she ha got a little house somewhere I forget where it was street, doesn't s it's not there any more.... And erm... I think I was about three when I came back here.... And erm I remember my father now even now n although I was only three I can still remember him in his uniform coming home on leave. [speaker002:] You can? [Elizabeth:] Yes. Strange isn't it how your mind goes back? And yet my s my oldest sister she was three years older than me... and she couldn't remember him.... And every time he c used to come home on leave she used to cry, she didn't know him... in uniform till he till he put his own clothes on.... And er I b I remember him as if it were yesterday.... But I think my sister was a bit scared of him, she felt he was a [LAUGHTER] stranger [] being in u in er soldier's uniform you know.... Yeah. [speaker002:] You said you went back to your... the house in street? [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker002:] What sort what sort of house was it? [Elizabeth:] Well that was a one up and one down and a little tiny little scullery... and it had a little tiny back yard.... And that's all we had there and we were for ever getting flooded out... and there we we'd all clean our shoes before going to bed at night put 'em all underneath the sideboard or whatever. And in the morning there was nothing to see they were floating about you know with the floods. They used to come without any... warning whatsoever. I think it was the sewerage that was in bad state.... The sewers.... But it was nothing new to... to get flooded out all the time there. There was only a tiny little row in between two streets, there was about... six houses I think it was. Very very small. Tiny little things. [speaker002:] Were you aware at the time that it was a small house? [Elizabeth:] No because [LAUGHTER] all the others round about seemed to be the same []. Some you know some had like a a living room and a little tiny [cough] back kitchen whatever you call them and erm... two little tiny bedrooms above.... B but until... we moved from there to street and we still only had one bedroom and one down but a little tiny back kitchen.... And er [cough] we were all brought up there the whole lot of us and I think I was about fifteen when I left there. And my mam finally got a council house with three bedrooms. Oh and we were posh then. Because we g [LAUGHTER] we g we were all separated then you know with different bedrooms. [clears throat] But erm... then my mam brought nine of us up in that one bedroom. [speaker002:] How did you all organize it yourselves then being so crowded? [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] Well [clears throat] it was one big bedroom but there was more or less like a loft. There was there was no doors to the bedroom if you know what I mean.... It was [clears throat] [cough] you walked up the stairs and there it was all open. Like a landing or a loft or whatever. And then my mam had three big double beds in there and of course we were slept top and bottom. And then the boys and the girls and whatever.... All s crammed together. [speaker002:] So you were sort of head to tail? [Elizabeth:] Yes. Oh yes. Top to bottom yeah. [speaker002:] Yes. [Elizabeth:] There were so many a the top so many in the bottom, the boys in one and the girls in the other one. And my mum and dad and probably a couple of the s little kids with them as well.... It's a wonder they didn't get er suffocated some of the kids then in them days. And then there was always a cradle with a little one in you know... in between I don't how we lived honest I don't.... But there you are we weren't the only ones, there was lots of people just the same.... But it's incredible to think that such things happened in them days isn't it really?... It was awful. I know the house was only erm... we used to have to run down to offices there to pay the rent once a month and it was twelve and six a month... for the house [LAUGHTER] and that's about what it [LAUGHTER] was worth too in them days []. Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Elizabeth:] Oh dear. [speaker002:] Who used to pay... the rent then was it your mother or your father? [Elizabeth:] My mother... my mother, my father was useless. You know [clears throat] as long as he had his pint and his food he d he wasn't bothered.... He wasn't er wasn't what you call a good father at all, no, wasn't a good provider. My mother was the one that used to... struggle and many a time she's gone without herself you know. She used she used to count all the kids round the t table... scrubbed table white... after every meal you know scrubbed and rinsed after every meal.... And she used to count us all and share it all out. And then suddenly she'd say oh I don't feel very hungry. I'm... we knew very well she was... but there was nothing left for her you know.... [sighing] Yeah. []... Th rotten days they were won't they?... People say they were the good old days, but oh I don't think. I think they were horrible days.... And there was nothing for my father had a few drinks you know and he'd come home and he he'd just come he'd he'd b be whistling coming up the street you know.... And er soon as he come in the house he he just walloped my mam for nothing.... Oh he was a awful man he really was.... And erm I remember I was... I was about fifteen now and [cough] my young brother was only a little tot about two I think three... and I remember my father came in and he did he went straight for my mam for nothing at all.... [LAUGHTER] Oh and I happened [] to be standing in the back kitchen you know... and I got hold of this saucepan and I picked my little brother up and put him under my arm in case he got hurt... and I oh I belted my father from his head to his feet with the saucepan. I don't know what possessed me to do it I went completely berserk.... I thought what now what did she do to deserve that?... For sh she was a good mother you know she really was a good mother.... And I I did I went completely mad and that's the only ever time I've ever hit anybody in my life, honest.... [LAUGHTER] And I don't think he ever forgave me for it you know. [LAUGHTER] But then he se he seemed then as if he'd think twice before he'd do anything... when he used to come in you know I er I said to him I said look we used to call him in them days you know, now what did you that for? Poor mam hasn't done a thing you know. And I think it brought him to his senses a lot after that, he thought well hello I've got... what do you call it now? I gotta watch what I'm doing you know these are starting to grow up.... Because my elder sister she left home when she was about sixteen I think, she went erm... into she was working there as a matron's maid. And she used to sleep in and then a little bit after that she went to live in Liverpool... with my grandmother and went to work there so... s I I s I was the sort of erm eldest one at home then you know so I felt as if I was more or less responsible... for looking after my mam sort of thing.... But she certainly didn't deserve him anyway.... [sighing] Mm. [] [speaker002:] How did you help to support your mam through? [Elizabeth:] Well erm... I remember when... my father would never give my mother any money.... We always had to chase after him for it and he'd never give her more than a pound a week. Never.... And we had to go from one pub to the other to look for him.... This was on a Saturday you know. And er my poor mam then used to go chasing down to shops late on Saturday afternoon... and things like that. She used to get meat cheap in the butchers. She used to know my mam th she had she had lo lots of kids. So erm they used to put some meat by for her... to er on the cheap sort of thing what was left over on a Saturday then my mother'd get lots of meat and that you know cheap. But wh where could you start with a pound? [speaker002:] How on earth could she manage? [Elizabeth:] Well she did you know I don't know how she did you know. She was a miracle. She must've been.... Then I I remember one... m my sister my younger sister she went to er... to hospital with erm... scarlet fever. And she came she was coming home from hospital and do you know my mother never had a little piece of bread to give to her when she brought her home.... Sh we had nothing in the house at all.... [whispering] Nothing. [] Oh it was a dreadful time.... No people don't know the half of it.... But my father never did a regular job after he come out th out of the army you know, I think it was... something had happened to him in the army, he'd got erm bomb blast or something or he was near s something when it went off and he got buried.... And when they went to pick him up... some somebody picked him up by his sort of under his arms sort of thing, and he had a double hernia through that. And... er whatever whatever it was they said that er they wouldn't chance operating on him. So that meant that he was... he couldn't sort of do a heavy heavy work... so he just used to do odd job things you know, he'd sell horse and carts and er he'd go down to the pier when he used to do the fishing boats, he used to come in and he'd buy a box of fish from them and go round the streets selling them you know. And then little did he know when he used to leave them in the house, in the back yard, that we'd been pinching some of them. [LAUGHTER] To get [LAUGHTER] have something to eat []. And and that's that's the way we survived.... Yeah one way or another you know.... But h he wasn't a dishonest man he was a very honest man. He was never in trouble with police or nothing. He wouldn't thieve he wouldn't he was too timid to do anything like that.... And yet in the house he was a er revolting man in the house.... That's why I couldn't ooh I couldn't stand to to marry a man that's drank you know. I was petrified of having the same thing as my mother did.... Because she did have a hard life. [speaker002:] So really the... the children were in effect brought by your mother? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. If it'd depended on my father we'd have been dead years ago.... Yes I do, I honestly don't ask me I haven't got a clue how she managed. But there were always a big potful of of whatever you know erm stew... or... she'd make a a cake in a in a big meat tin. And all done in the oven in the old fashioned grates you know, no fancy... gas cookers with thermostats or whatever [LAUGHTER] on []. It was all stuck there with the coal underneath. And it's amazing what w you know, and you a she always baked her own bread. Always.... Always baked baked her own bread and we used go, we used to run that to the... to the bakers... to have it for baking sort of thing. And that was about every other day she used to bake about... ooh I forget whether it was fourteen pound or twenty eight pound of flour she us. I know we used to have to run to school in the morn er for the shopping in the morning. Before going to school.... So that she'd be be she'd be doing her baking during the day while we were at school.... And erm... I think that's the way you know that er we were fed because there was none of us that was... not suffered from anything apart from little childish illnesses cos if one got the measles we all got the measles you know, the whole lot of us. One got the whooping cough we [LAUGHTER] all did []. [LAUGHTER] And erm that's the way we went. [speaker002:] And what happened er then when you when the family was going down like flies? How [Elizabeth:] Ah my poor mam had us all in that one bedroom upstairs you know.... Oh it was terrible.... I'm not saying we all had it together but you say you can er say that about four of 'em would then as that as that they got rid of it the other the others' d get it you know eventually and th we'd all have it in the end. With a few weeks in between.... But er she managed somehow you know but she was like that my mother'd manage anyth any illness at all and we never worried about that.... She always knew what to get. [LAUGHTER] For anything [] what was wrong with you. To the chemists she'd be... [sighing] yeah []. [speaker002:] So she'd go to the chemist not to the doctor then? [Elizabeth:] Oh n we'd go to the doctor. But er she had to pay her didn't she? Although it was only about two shillings I think it was a lot of money for her you know.... So unless it was something very desperate... she always seemed to know what was wrong with you.... She always always oh she she had a second sight like that, I think she should've been a doctor if she'd lived in these this day and age.... Because no matter what was wrong people always used to run for my mother you know.... And she used to go with the district nurses a lot to... er to treat different people specially a long time... I remember erm... a young man... erm h he had er I think it was cerebral palsy he had... and er he was so fed up with himself he threw paraffin over himself... and er set light you know... on the top of the stairs and threw himself down.... And oh he burnt his back shocking, terrible state his back was in. And my mam went to him every day with the nurses... oh it was months and months and months... until it was completely cleared.... I don't know how she did it but she did.... I could never take after her... can my sister but not me.... [knocking] [whispering] knock knock [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What on earth's that? [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] People moving in next door. [] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [speaker002:] So... your mother was regarded in the neighbourhood as someone who knew how to treat illnesses? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes.... Or accidents anything like that. Yeah. Oh she was good you know. She used to know every every medicine no matter what. She'd make her own cough mixture for winter time in pint bottles.... And er that then we were alright for winter in case we caught cold.... And then she'd dose you up with goose grease, oh dear that the thought of that now. And erm [LAUGHTER] but that's what she believed in.... But anybody er with an any child with an accident you know she was there, whether they'd scalded themself, burnt themselves or fell over or what.... She was there. Only she couldn't touch us if we were hurt. [speaker002:] Really? [Elizabeth:] If we had a splinter oh go to auntie my other... mm she wasn't our aunt really but er she was she was some relation but we used to call her auntie and we'd have to go to her... to take a splinter out of our own finger she us she couldn't touch us, wasn't that funny?... And it's the same t squeezing boils and all sorts of things out of other people you know.... Oh she was a she was a great person she really was. [sighing] Yeah... yeah. []... But I don't think any one of us' ll take after my mother. [speaker002:] No? [Elizabeth:] No. No.... I don't know we had a very hard life when we were kids but... you know w er got on ourselves later on we... we had a fairly easy life but erm... you don't forget those old times though do you not really. [clears throat] [speaker002:] You said that er people would er... would come to your m mother for acc if they the children suffered from accidents? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. Oh yes. There was one girl she'd erm... she'd burnt her leg right down the front of her leg er on the bone in the front of her leg and er... her mother just wrapped up something an old stocking I think she put in it, and of course it went bad didn't it. Then er this er my mam saw her limping one day, she said what's the matter? And this little girl said I've burnt my leg. So my mam says come on she said come with me and took her home... and er sat her down on... oh and she'd go and get this stocking off of her little leg it was er hole in the leg like that.... And er... she got it away eventually bathing it and talking to the little girl and... then she said to her now I want you to come here every day she said so I can I see to that for you.... And to this day I see that woman.... And she talks about it remember your mam the way she looked after my leg.... Yeah.... I'm sure sh you know she would have been in dire trouble er only for my mother having seen her limping that day, but that's the sort of thing she would do.... Yeah. [speaker002:] The fact that er people felt free to come and ask your mum [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [speaker002:] er w was that kind of... service erm usual or unusual er ar around here? [Elizabeth:] Oh no it was a usual thing you know, anybody'd go out of their way then... to help. Everybody's door was open, whatever they had was shared you know whatever one ever had,an even it was only half a loaf it was there.... Erm it was a mar it's was a wonderful place to live in this... this part of er you know Bangor.... Oh yeah it was great. [speaker002:] How would er how would the community know when someone was er in need of? [Elizabeth:] Well I dunno. You you more or less guessed I suppose it would somehow get get to be known by somebody you know.... It's er like someone was having a child and they never had er never had er nappies or whatever. I've seen my mam take sheets off a bed and tear them up in squares.... Fo to make sh little nappies for the baby that was just been born and... no clothes ready or fo... and I've I've seen her you know as poor as we were my mam would sit there was patching sheets... and er... but I've seen them whipped off the bed and put on somebody's bed while they were having a baby or whatever.... So you know i that's the way s you sort of got to know... er er people's circumstances I think. Not that people used to... let you know about they were hard up I mean, they just wouldn't would they? Even though they were poor they still had their pride.... To an extent I think. [speaker002:] So th the sort of help that was that would come to the surface would it be at times like... birth, death, accidents? [Elizabeth:] That's right, that's right yes it would. It would. People didn't have much to give but what they gave they gave with a good heart you know.... Because er... well if there was a death er in the family at th that time they used to erm... I don't suppose you remember it but er there used to always be a plate on a table whoever called would leave a little bit money on the plate to help pay for the funeral or whatever. Very quietly.... Yeah, nothing said as they went out, people just used to put a little something on the plate or whatever. Just to help but erm... yes everybody was in the same position more or less but erm... and yet they used to help in a s own little way. [speaker002:] You said that er when when people called at er when there'd been a death would that be calling to see? [Elizabeth:] To sympathize or t could they help more more than anything. Yes could they help you know. Just just to show that erm well they just were that those sort of people you know. If they thought er well I'd better go round just in case and she might need something or she might she might just want to talk or whatever you know.... And er... they just used to go and have a quiet word and... not make a fuss, no bother no nothing.... [speaker002:] At that time would it have been... a custom to have had the coffin in the house? [Elizabeth:] Yes. Well yes, there was no such thing as er chapels of rests then was there?... Everybody even though you only had the one room downstairs, I remember when my brother died he w at twelve... although there was a big crowd of us in that house... there was er no there wasn't then... there was er the four sisters wasn't there? And er... that's right there was only four of us then... and erm this little coffin was there and my sister was trying to feed him a piece of apple while he was in his coffin, saying do you want a piece of apple in Welsh to him. She didn't know she thought he was just sleeping. [LAUGHTER] Yeah.... But oh yes everybody had the coffin in the house then no matter how small your house was. Strange to think of it now isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Cos people here have done everything in that one room didn't they? [speaker002:] So you would... you well you would have to carry on your life not as normal but you'd have to eat wouldn't you? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. It was there and I mean and the rooms were so small.... We there wasn't room for a three piece suite sort of thing and then you'd have a sideboard and a table, chairs to sit on like hard chairs, wooden chairs like kitchen chairs.... But you wouldn't have er you wouldn't have easy chairs or nothing like that.... You know that that's about all the room there was was honestly was a table and chairs and more often than not a couple of us had to sit on the stairs.... Cos the stairs was in your living room then, as you went in through your front door your stairs were facing the front door. Your front door was in your living room. [speaker002:] when you open the door [Elizabeth:] When you open the door you're in the living room. And then the stairs the stairs are facing you like that, so you've only got about... about a metre of... in between the bottom of the stairs and your front door and you s just sort of go in through there an and you're in the living room.... No partition no nothing. No it all open. Just like the bedroom was upstairs.... Oh shocking to think of it now isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes it's erm... it's a completely different time isn't it? [Elizabeth:] Yes. Yes honestly it is isn't it?... But ooh I wouldn't like to go back to them days I'm sure I wouldn't. [speaker002:] Can you... give me some idea of the eff... the effect that say a death would ha when your what effect did your brother's death have on the family? [Elizabeth:] Well, well it was erm my mother was very very upset.... Well it came so suddenly you see there's erm as I said playing football, and then this accident and then he he was sort of taken away from us in no time you know.... And I remember I was sent to er... a neighbour's house... the day of the funeral, I was erm... seven.... I was seven... and I was I went to a neighbour's house and as it happened I was looking through the blooming window when the funeral went past... so I was no better off you know. [LAUGHTER]... And er there was the er the kids from his erm... he w he was going to school... when he died and er... there was children from his class walking along cos they we they used to walk to the cemeteries then... and carrying a wreath of er flowers, I remember it as if it was yesterday.... The children from his class walking in the funeral... yeah... carrying a wreath from the class... and... mm. [speaker002:] So... although you would have... I don't know but I I hope I'm not sort of I really am trying to find out... although you'd have... his coffin in the front room where you would be living [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] you wouldn't... you still weren't allowed to go to the funeral? [Elizabeth:] No I wasn't.... I whether my mother couldn't afford to buy me clothes to go.... Or whether for some unknown reason she just didn't want me to go. [speaker002:] At the time er did did you think that was unusual or did you accept it? [Elizabeth:] I accepted it, whatever my mother said, we accepted.... Because we always thought well she knows what sh you know she's right. My mother was always right s as far as we were concerned.... And erm... I think he died if I remember rightly, he died on the erm... twenty fifth of January... and my other brother was born on the third of [tape change] [speaker002:] Thank you. [Elizabeth:] er yes I was saying erm... they only had the midwives in them days didn't they, to come... for the birth and that and anyway my mother was... was ill enough to have to send for a doctor. And that's the first time she'd ever had a doctor.... And sh they she was given erm some sort of... oh... something to put her to sleep or whatever... gas [LAUGHTER] and I know sh she seemed to know what she was doing... but this lady that was there with her... she passed out with the smell of gas in the room so she wasn't much help. [LAUGHTER] But erm this might not believe me but I'm gonna tell you just the same. He was over fourteen pounds born. [speaker002:] Good God. [Elizabeth:] Over fourteen pounds born, he was the heaviest child that they'd ever delivered. [speaker002:] Your poor mother. [Elizabeth:] Yes so that's why she had to have a doctor for that one.... So anyway, she got over it and all she had to do she... she tell her to stay in bed now for s so many days but... she'd be up again the following day and then the nurse'd come and have a look under her feet and she'd say you been up again she'd say. Cos she hadn't washed her feet for going back to bed. The soles of her [LAUGHTER] feet [] and the then they knew she'd been up on her feet you know. But as she said she she just had to she... couldn't stay in bed when she had kids running all over the place.... No I don't know how she ever put up with it, poor mum. [speaker002:] So at that time, the midwife would only come for a a quite a small... proportion of the time then? [Elizabeth:] That's right, yes. Just when when the child was more or less The they used to call I think... you know when before the baby was born. To sort of make out s make sure you've got this and that so you're ready for the confinement and er... But they only came the last minute when... when they were the ma mams were expecting their babies.... And then they'd call for a few days afterwards er whatever.... And that was it. Finished.... And yet again my mother used to go with him to deliver ba other babies as [LAUGHTER] you know herself [] as we as we sort of grew up... and we were off her hands. And she used to go with him a lot. Well she's delivered many a baby herself with no nurse er about.... You know they always used to come when it was too late. If they knew my mam was there they knew it sh they'd be alright. They never bothered. [speaker002:] So your your moth mum would act as a midwife? [Elizabeth:] As midwife yes. My sister Ann she's delivered a couple of children herself.... [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] You wouldn't think so to look at her would you? [] [speaker002:] She looks capable of it. [Elizabeth:] Yes she is quite, yes. Mm.... But er my my mam did.... And another time ooh another time she went er somebody... I tell you they always used to run for my mother when there was trouble and er... a woman had hung herself... just round the corner to where we lived.... And my mam went there and she cut her down and everything you know.... From a beam where she'd er... she'd hung herself. And when she came home she said, Do you know what she said she must have taken ages she said to put that cord through that er beam, she said. She must have taken a knife to push the cord through, she said, there was hardly any room for it.... And then you know [LAUGHTER]. And my poor mam you know, she used to scrub her hands with erm... it wasn't Dettol it was Lysol in them days wasn't it what they used to use. Proper hospital smell Lysol it was called. [speaker002:] like carbolic acid? [Elizabeth:] Aha. Yeah. And oh gosh it used to burn your hands nearly.... And she'd scrub herself the hands with that you know and of course my mam used to do all the baking didn't she. And then us kids wouldn't eat because she'd cut this lady down you know. And sh whatever's the matter with you she said, you've seen me scrub. Oh, I said, we're not hungry. I think she saved more money that [LAUGHTER] week on food []. [LAUGHTER] We just didn't fancy anything she'd touched you know.... Oh it was a dreadful thing when you come to think of it now, the poor women couldn't help it she was... must have been in desperate straits to do a thing like that.... And she was such a lovely lady too you would never would have believed it.... She was a really nice lady she was. Mm. [speaker002:] Was it not uncommon then for people to commit suicide or was it [Elizabeth:] Well I don't know. No I d I didn't hear of many. I think she had this lady had tried to drown herself in the quay before that.... Mm, no I don't think so, not that I can remember.... I think there's more more recently that's done things like that than there was in them days.... Mm. [speaker002:] You said that erm... your mother would... after the confinement and after the birth she would erm have to do the normal housework? [Elizabeth:] Yes oh yes. [speaker002:] Would er d d during that period af immediately after, would anyone else come in to give her a hand? [Elizabeth:] Yes well my grandmother... I think she lived nearby and she'd sort of pop in.... But erm what I was I was just seven, my oldest sister was ten... so she'd probably have been you know... more capable of helping my mam out than I was. I suppose I was the one that used to run about for errands or whatever.... But erm I suppose she would have been the one to do the cleaning and... washing up or whatever.... But my mother wasn't the type that would lay in bed if you know what I mean. She she wouldn't be happy laying there you know she'd be too worried about things.... About what's happening to the rest of because... she was very maternal she was m she was our mam. But she was er she was like a broody hen with us you know she was forever... watching and looking and making sure we were alright. That's why I keep saying she was a good mother. [speaker002:] So [Elizabeth:] [sighing] Yeah. [] [speaker002:] so you were aware all that time that er... you were under her... care? [Elizabeth:] We were under her care until we were married. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] We did as we were told. Yeah until we were married.... And then she would be advising.... I er I remember always... don't buy what you can't afford... don't get anything unless you can pay for it. [LAUGHTER] She was that type of a person. You don't want people knocking your door... and er you know she... up to the time she died we we used to be advised by her. she died at sixty, [whispering] bless her []. Mm. [speaker002:] Were you aware were you aware then at that time that although people were generally poor in in in the area, that some people were suffering the consequences of being in debt more than others, or being poor more than others? [Elizabeth:] I don't think there were many people in debt because they knew they couldn't afford to go into debt you know. I think that's why they were poor, they'd sooner go without.... I'm I'm sure that's er that that was the reason my mother was poor. She just knew that they we she couldn't she couldn't go and get any you know, anything on H P or whatever. Because she knew she wouldn't have the money to pay for it so we just that was her way you see. Whatever if you can't afford it go without. And that's the way we were brought up. And and really you know... on second thought, many a time we've thought that her words ha have been there and you'd say, Oh no I won't have it you know.... Yes she was a very wise woman. [speaker002:] Was it generally thought of then er that is being in debt, was it generally thought of as being something that was evil or [Elizabeth:] Oh I think so. [speaker002:] Yes? [Elizabeth:] I think so. Yes. I mean... I don't think there were many houses that th anybody knocked the door for any... any debt or anything. I'm sure there wasn't.... Because as I say people were that poor they they knew that they just couldn't afford to er... to get anything you know. Not unless they had the money to pay for it which they didn't have.... Oh it was poor in them days there's no two ways about it. It was.... it was nothing for you to have the er sole of your sh shoe flapping off and having to wear 'em till the p there was a little man that used to mend the shoes in Hirael there... and you'd go to him and he'd put a couple of nails, never charge you for it you know. [speaker002:] No? [Elizabeth:] No. go sitting in his shop watching him mend the shoes. Because he had he used to have a big open fire there and all the kids would be sitting round it keeping warm... while he was mending the shoes. And and you'd say, Oh look Mr my sole of my shoe's come loose. Oh take it off and he would stick a couple of nails in. Had the nails in his mouth you know and er used to knock 'em with a file. And then you'd go you'd be swanking then, your flap had gone you know. [LAUGHTER] But er that was a commonplace thing he used to do that for all the kids.... Nice little man he was. [knocking]... [whispering] Woodpecker. [] [speaker002:] you said that you'd be sitting round the fire, but wh when you were when you were in your own house [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [speaker002:] would you be sitting around the fire? [Elizabeth:] Well it wasn't big enough really. No I mean... the fireplace was... you'd get about three chairs round it, it was... [LAUGHTER] it was crowded []. But the room was so small... so no matter where you sat there you'd be warm.... Th with a crowd... and er the smallness of the room.... So you know erm... my brother was er as I said I was er four when my brother died then my mam gradually had more children afterwards until there was nine of us in the end left there.... In that same one room.... Before we before my mam had the house in Road that was just what you might sort of still call it. And then we had the three bedrooms then.... But erm... there we had the living room and a parlour and we were posh.... But er I dunno. But no nobody ever used to seem to sit round the fire. My mother would probably be the nearest one to it er sat at the corner near the fire... and all the kids would be sitting round the table doing something you know.... Or out in the street playing out the way. [speaker002:] Yes I was going to ask y er wh where would you be playing as a as a as a young girl then? [Elizabeth:] Well we... on the beach on... on the there, we went th we were there from morning till night wh during school holidays. And then Street where we lived it erm was a dead end it was a cul-de-sac.... So we were safe to play there, there was no traffic up and down there you see. It was only a little narrow you could step from one pavement to the other on the other side of the road. And our mams used to have skipping ropes you know one sat on the chair on one pavement the other one on pavement on the other side, turning a rope er and we skipped for hours there, with our mams turning the ropes for us. Things like that we used to play. Never very far away you know. Our mams always watching us. But it was mainly on the beach we used to play... all the time.... Cos when the well as soon as you could walk in the summer er you know when weather permitting... my mam'd take us down on the beach there and, Here you are, sink or swim in you'd go into the water. [speaker002:] Did you? [Elizabeth:] Yeah. And she'd be watching you like a hawk you know. But er it comes natural to a baby a swim doesn't it?... And er because that's where we were all the time so you had to learn to swim from no age at all.... So I wonder if that's why they were good swimmers around Hirael you know. Great swimmers they were. Yeah. [speaker002:] So generally speaking then the children were taught to swim when they were little? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes.... From from a few weeks old she'd be sitting on on there was an old er wreck of a boat there. My mam'd er well not m my mother all the mams, would be sitting there with the kids with their feet in the water to get used to it even when they were a few weeks old. You know I can visualize it now you know. But as soon as you could walk,... then they'd throw you in then... watching you every minute.... And it used to come natural.... Oh they were really good swimmers round here. Specially the lads.... I always felt safe, there was always somebody about.... Mm. [speaker002:] Did the lads and the girls play together or? [Elizabeth:] Oh no together always [speaker002:] They did? [Elizabeth:] Yes.... Yes always together... great. Nothing for us knocking each others' doors at nights about midnight coming for a swim and we'd all go down.... Yo you know moonlight bathing and all sorts.... Quite innocent.... Yes even the lads and the girls you know.... Oh we were brought up together all on the same... vicinity for over the years you get to know one another and... and erm... thoroughly enjoy ourselves. Quite innocently.... Yeah. [speaker002:] When your mother was sort of having a lot of a lot of children and and after you you know you you were growing up and she was still having children erm had you any idea of erm the processes by which all this was coming about? [Elizabeth:] No I didn't.... No I didn't I was very very erm my mother was erm... I don't know what can you call it... very slow in coming forward I think.... No she never told us anything about anything.... And we when we came of age... puberty... I was frightened to death me... because I was sitting on the bea we were playing on the beach... still a child of twelve cos we still went about with little socks on... at twelve in them days.... When I first started becoming a woman... on playing on the beach and I ran home petrified.... And she says there's nothing wrong with you she said... and gave me a what you call it to p to er protect myself. There's you're not ill there's nothing wrong with you she said.... But as from now, she said, you're a woman, she said. So just take care of yourself. And that's all she told me.... And I had no idea... no idea at all honestly.... No idea. [speaker002:] When you came home did you and sh she told you this [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [speaker002:] did you... Fro fro just listening to th the way you were imitating what your mother said [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker002:] it seems that she was... quite definite and quite firm? [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [speaker002:] What sort of effect did it have on you that kind of directness? Er [Elizabeth:] Well a as soon as she gave me this erm... protective thing to wear and and then told me that I was grown up and every. Now, she says, I want you to go up town to get me whatever it was, don't ask me I don't remember.... And I s I can't walk. I'm ill, I'm dying you [LAUGHTER] know []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Elizabeth:] But no you go up town and get me this you see now she meant that sh sh you know... no mampy pampying now, off you go... yo you this is going to happen to you for a long time to come.... And erm anyway er it all passed over just like that and came natural afterwards you know.... And it was girls in school then that s s you know when you started talking about, Ooh what happened to me on the beach and that. Oh didn't you know, I could've told you that you know then... we got to know all the all the things when it was too late but as regards my mother telling us anything brrr no. [speaker002:] Was was that sort of thing quite usual then that the that the children had to find out [Elizabeth:] Yes the hard way yes. They used to get petrified out of their their lives you know before they knew anything about it it it'd happened to you.... And oh it really er it frightened me to death. It really did. And I wasn't the only one [LAUGHTER] I think all my family was the same []. [LAUGHTER] after that we sort of passed it on to the one next you know what to expect, but if it was down to my mother she'd never tell you.... But us girls used to tell one another afterwards you know.... Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Were you involved at all in er looking after... the younger children? [Elizabeth:] Oh what? We never used to be able to go and play anywhere take this one with you. Oof I near I nearly flattened my s Ann my sister Ann. Oh she was a miserable child. Oh I'll never forge oh she was the most miserable child that God every created she was honestly.... And oh God and every time I got, take this one with you more misery. So oh I said mam do I have to? Take her.... And you always had one or two of them with you you know no matter where you went you oh dear.... Oh mm terrible.... No you were never allowed to er have much time for yourself, you always had one or two of the other kids.... Mind you you can't blame my mam really you know poor thing, she wanted a rest didn't she.... Though you thought, Oh come on old misery [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] can't [] I go out on my own some time? The only place I was allowed to go to school I think. But as regards going out to play we always had to take some of the others with us.... But then we were never far away were we? [speaker002:] Was that er w was that sort of thing quite usual then for older children [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] have younger ones in tow. [Elizabeth:] Oh yes it was yes. Because we we they were nearly all big families weren't they?... In them days anyway.... Oh yes cos there was quite a few er kids in in that little street of ours you know in Street. Gosh yes. Quite a few kids in there. But I think my mam had the most.... Mm. [speaker002:] You said that erm... sometimes the mums one would sit on one side of the street and one the other skipping w [Elizabeth:] Mm yeah. [speaker002:] while you skipped [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Would they be talking to to each other? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. Passing the p time of day about th things in general you know. And then erm oh nearly all the mums' d be sitting out. All the houses were so small... that er th nearly everybody'd take their chairs out in the evening time in the in the summer.... And there they'd be chatting across to one another or come to each others' doors and... h you know pass time of day having a little chat about one thing and another.... They were glad to get out the houses I think. Cos when you think of 'em now they were claustrophobic you know.... They were low and er small. [speaker002:] Would your... would there be any s visiting, would your mum? [Elizabeth:] Oh no. [speaker002:] There wouldn't be? [Elizabeth:] No.... No we never had visitors, my mother couldn't... she couldn't afford to have visitors you know. And she couldn't visit anybody otherwise she'd have to take some of us and y She wasn't very welcome anyway with two or three kids behind her. Cos she could never go on her own.... Erm... no she used to keep herself very much to herself.... As we grew up she used to sometimes go a see an aunt of ours.... But then we were big enough now to look after the kids for her while she went. Or she'd go to the pictures perhaps.... When us kids were growing up now so... Well there was myself and my oth younger sister ne the one next to me. Mary she died.... It was us two I think what took the brunt of looking after the... the younger ones because as I said, my older sister she left... Bangor quite young.... So... it was m myself and my sister Mary really that took care of the rest of them.... But then it came natural we didn't take any notice of it, we thought it was what was expected of us you know.... Er then my mam said er when when a couple or two or three of us were at work, that she w chucking old man out and she did. [speaker002:] She did? [Elizabeth:] [whispering] Yes she did. []... And it was I was working, my sister was working in Liverpool sending some money home. Then I was working and my sister Mary started work and my father went out one night and he came back knocked the door and he was drunk as per usual. So my mother calmly said, And I'm not opening the door to you now or ever, she said.... And that was it.... Never came back.... He went to live with his mother.... The one whose house I was er born in in still.... And er he died there at fifty.... He had a heart attack when he died at fifty. Yeah. [speaker002:] And he accepted the situation? [Elizabeth:] Well there wa hardly anything else he could do it was a big relief to us wasn't it.... Because then they knew... that... we... a couple of the kids were really terrified of him... and if they'd only have to hear his his footsteps walking up the street and they'd start to shake. They were petrified.... Not that he used to hit us kids he never did. He never lay a hand on any of us children. But he hit my mother... instead you know. For no reason whatever.... And he wasn't the sort of man what my mother could say, Now look this one's been naughty today will you chastise them?... She couldn't she couldn't er... talk to him like that you know... at all so she had to chastise us. And yet he used to chastise her. [speaker002:] Did you find it very puzzling as to why he [Elizabeth:] We did. I could I couldn't understand wh why he was doing it all. You know erm I can't understand to this day why he did it. [speaker002:] You can't understand why? [Elizabeth:] Quite frankly no.... No I can't. Cos er... she didn't deserve it.... She really didn't you know.... I mean what would have happened to us kids if if she'd have been like him?... We'd have died years ago. [speaker002:] Presumably also it placed... when he went... erm when it placed a bit of a burden on the rest of you to ensure [Elizabeth:] Yes. Yes. [speaker002:] Yes. You were aware of that responsibility? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. And and we accepted it. [speaker002:] Did you? [Elizabeth:] Yes. Because we went b I think... I wasn't er a very well child and the doct when I left school the doctor said I left school at fourteen and he said I had to erm find a job out of doors. Now where could you find a job out of doors? So... I went to work to the old market place... in the high street when it was an old market an open market you know where McKays is now, McKays whatever. [speaker002:] Oh yes Yeah? [Elizabeth:] When it was an old fashion open market and erm I went to work there on the fruit and vegetable stall. And I think our wages were about twelve and six... a week and then it went to fifteen shillings a week. I think I ended up by having just over a pound a week or something like that.... And of course a all that was given to my mother, I us I never used to get nothing back. [speaker002:] The whole of it? [Elizabeth:] The whole of it yes.... So she was getting oh I'd say about ten bob from my sister in Liverpool and my wages and my sister Mary's m money.... So erm and she didn't have him to keep so she was better off that way you know. [speaker002:] After the a er after the time when when you began to support your mum [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [speaker002:] did you notice any change in her? [Elizabeth:] Oh she was a much happier person then.... Oh yes she was. She was much happier person because this this she'd threatened to do for a long time. That when we grow up grew up... to help support... the home sort of thing. That she would... you know throw him out so that she could just couldn't tolerate him any more. And of course we agreed with her. So... because it er as I said it was a relief to her i were a relief to us as children because then we weren't living in in terror of him coming home and... you know causing the bother. [speaker002:] Do d do you think your father was unusual in Hirael at that time or or was that kind of behaviour by men accepted? [Elizabeth:] Oh it was accepted in them days. [speaker002:] Was it? [recording ends]

[speaker001:] When you're ready what would be what things will we shall we start with? [speaker002:] Well erm sort of how how you how you became involved in the erm in the strike. [Robert:] In the strike, are we starting off with this stuff? [speaker002:] Yes. [Robert:] Not now? [speaker002:] Yes now. [Robert:] Oh. Well we started off and we were working for. And we and then we had been working for him for about ten or eleven years on this contract that he had for us. And erm his son came along to take over from him. And he put a new table in the mill. And erm being as he put a new table in the mill he thought we could work for thirty pound a week less, on this table. And we could produce more slate on erm thirty pound a week less in wages. Well none of the lads were prepared to take that on, cos we'd been on this contract with for the last eleven years. And was quite happy and all the workers was happy until this son came along. And that's what's got us fixed in all this trouble. [speaker002:] You said that you'd worked erm quite happily for er t t [Robert:] Oh yeah everybody was happy. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Robert:] Aha. [speaker002:] Can you give me some idea of erm h how you started up with him in the first place? [Robert:] Well he bought this slate quarry to scrap it. I believe he er didn't give much for the quarry. But somebody put him on there was slate to be had, only a if you had a machine to clear. And he started clearing to get this slate, and he got at the slate quite quick. But we were working for him then for fourteen pound a week. And make preparing the mill ready for the slate. To ma make putting fixing new tables in and that. And erm anyway we got more from the unemployment exchange that prepared to work for him for fourteen pound, when we could have a eighteen pound on the dole. Four pound a week more on the dole, cos we were having elected earnings and tax rebates on the dole and it and it made it up to eighteen pound. And we were working for for fourteen pound... at that time. [speaker002:] I sup erm at that time was there a a a a lot of men who had work in the quarries [Robert:] Well [speaker002:] on the dole? [Robert:] Well everybody that was working for him had always worked in the quarries all their life, and they er they just been working for the slater company before the quarry shut down. And that's the time they were put off work when the quarry, of the why the quarry shut it, they had too much expense on the electricity to pump the water from this from the mine. That's why er the quarry shut. Or the quarry would have carried on with this slate mine. [speaker002:] How many p people d di did he take on at that time then, when he first took over? [Robert:] There was about six to start with. [speaker002:] How did he select them? [Robert:] Well he knew they were all slate quarry workers, and that's how he went on to them. He knew they were all slate quarry workers and they were prepared to work the slate again. Every one of them. [speaker002:] Were they were they men [clears throat] who had erm a l lot of expertise in in in the slate? [Robert:] Yes all their lives you know they'd worked. We've all worked in these slate mines since we left school. I I left school before the war when I was fourteen, we all went in the slates. Cos everybody was working in the slate then. Hundreds of men working in the slates. My fathers and grandfathers all worked in the slate, they seen nothing only slate. And when the war broke out of course, everybody left the mines. Cos there was more money else where. We were working for, my father was er earning one pound sixteen shillings a week before the war. When the war broke out that made a world of difference for everybody. The wages stepped up. I went into erm aer aerodrome you know be we were having working seven days a week and we were having seven pound a week. A pound a day and we were millionaires weren't we? Aye millionaires. Only because the war broke out. Yes. And then from there, in nineteen forty three, I was called up. And was going back to twelve and six a week after, to the forces. And I wasn't long in this country they shoved me over, Normandy, on the landing in Normandy. And all I got for that was a couple of tin medals, uh uh, aye dear... Aye. [speaker002:] When you er when started up again, opened up the the quarry. [Robert:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Can you tell me all the sort of work that you were al er engaged in? [Robert:] [clears throat] Well to prepare the mill, we were erm concreting and or doing knocking all the old tables down and preparing get the er big saw table in, you know to diamond saw table in to cut the slate up. Erm or any other little fork lift there which the quarry belonged then. And was on to us, he only had four thousand five hundred that's all the money he had, that's all I've got four thousand five hundred. And believe me in a couple of weeks after we got the slate for him. We had a new fork lift, we had tools galore, everything was coming in. There must be money in slate. And in no time after that built a massive big bungalow for himself. He had a brand new Mercs. Every money was coming in everywhere. From a poor man he didn't half step up. Aye in no time, cos there must be money in slate... [LAUGHTER] Aye. [speaker002:] [cough] Mm. [Robert:] Yes he stepped up, right diddly me. And then his son they had a Mercs each, and he's built a new bungalow now in they've all got massive big places, it's fantastic the money they made out of it. And this is what they ga ga done with the lads in the end. Just shoved them off, put them on the dole, [sniff] and there was some young lads that I I wasn't worried myself, cos I I'm in my sixties, but there was lads there with mortgages and kids. He didn't think of them either eh. There's lads of real trouble there, but there was lads you know young lads with kids and mortgages and and we had er he I'm sixty all your worries are over aren't they. But there are young lads there. What he didn't worry about them either he didn't care who who went, just that he we he had his own way. [speaker002:] W w when you were starting off aga when you were starting off with erm was there any sense in that you were all including him involved in a joint enterprise to g g g g get the quarry really being profitable? [Robert:] Well what he said to us, if I go up we go up together, he said. If I make money I I'll make you I can pay you as well, if I go up I mean if I go down, he said, I can go up or down as well, he said. That's what he said, and he kept on saying he had only four thousand five hundred pounds or something, that's all the money he had, he was on about that all the time. But he he didn't half make money cos he had nothing before that. He had that coal business, but no money, he had no money there. But that slate quarry put him on his feet all right. [speaker002:] W w w why do you think his approach t t to the extraction of slate was successful. Where as the previous owners had erm had great problems with f fl fl flooding? [Robert:] Well he worked the slates from outside you know. They were all slate there, the old new there was slate there, but they weren't prepared to get the machines to clear it, at it. Where as he bought these machines and cleared up the rubbish to get at the slate. Cos the lads knew where the slates was, and it wasn't far from the surface. There was plenty of slate there but he he just slate mines wouldn't pay t to get these machines, and course this grant story this had you know millions of pounds of grants for these machines and that. We know he had fantastic grants, we know how much he had, you know when we went on this strike. We got to know all the money he had from these grants to get all these machines and all these. Every penny he was paying he was having grant for it from the government... Aye. [speaker002:] Where you aw aw aw a a aware of that you were in a a b business that was succeeding when you were working for him? [Robert:] Oh yes, we everybody knew of that of the slate we were making, you know cos erm we were making about two thousand duchess a day. [sniff] [speaker002:] What [Robert:] In twenty four fourteens and twenty t twenty two hours an this fantastic you know, the slate cos it was good slate there. And there's no contract to start with, the first year or two there was no contract at all. And we had terrible job getting a contract off him. He wouldn't give a contract and he wanted us to work like on the, make plenty of slate but he wouldn't you know, he wasn't prepared, thee to pay. But we did manage to get the contract from him after. But he wasn't prepared to give a contract to start with. [sniff] Out of all the slate mines, of all the years that has gone I've always worked on a contract. That's been the bo the system of these slate mines. There was used t the work in the old days, there was used to be two underground and two in the mill, they used to be partners. The the lads underground used to send the blocks up, and the lads in the mill used to make produce the slates out of them, and they were all partners these four. And there was hundreds of contracts like that in the quarry, everybody was on their own for t thing, you know. Not one big contract but everybody on their own little contracts. Four four men in each contract, that's how they were. That's how they carried it out in the old days, in every quarry. But in this quarry now in when we were working for everybody was on the same bonus, you know they was they were all partners. Everybody in the erm in the er on the slate face and everybody in the mill were partners, everybody. Get the same wages [sniff] not like the old days then, they were all individual partners then in four you know, in each partner work working. [speaker002:] When you came to get your your contract with er te te te and you were all in the same c contract, was that because you got together as a union, or whether you got t together as the worker? [Robert:] Oh we were all together, and the union was behind us, you know the union was with us. [speaker002:] Even in that early day? [Robert:] Oh yes, we had the union with us all the time, from the start you know. Everybody paid the union then, aye... everybody was a union man there. But erm you know when we were on the strike if these lads wouldn't have gone back, there was couple of scabs went back into the quarry. It's them that made it worse for the others, if everybody had a stayed up together, and and stayed out, we we everybody had the same troubles, money trouble. Cos there was youngsters there who that stayed out with us, they had mortgages. And these scabs that went back, well they're the ones that let us down. St [speaker002:] D d d do you think you you you would have succeeded? [Robert:] Oh yes, if everybody would have stayed out they would never had a scrap of slate made there, everybody would have stayed out and stayed out till the end, and not a scrap of slate would have been made there. But these scabs went back and made slates, and there was erm two officials there, they they'd never made slate when we were working up there. But when we went on strike they started making slate, so in a way they were scabs too, in these two officials, officials not touched a slate if they were er not making slate before, why should they make slate when we were on strike? [speaker002:] D d did they know how to s how to make slate? [Robert:] Oh yeah, well they weren't good slaters as the, you know, but they did produce slate there, but they didn't they weren't good slaters the just that, well they make slate but. If they wouldn't have made a scrap of slate it would have a world of difference to this strike. Not a scrap of slate would have been made there, and he would have had to do something with us then. But these scabs went back and that's what really ruined this strike. [speaker002:] Had you any had you any clue at all that they were going to go back? [Robert:] Well yes we had you could see on some of them, they didn't want much to turn them on, you know there was two or three there and they they took some others with them of course then didn't they, you know. If you get one or two that prepared to go the others w drop one by one back then wou that's how they went. But there was two or three there, when the strike started you couldn't trust them, they were scabs from the start. They weren't prepared to stay out. [speaker002:] Where they men who had been quarry men? [Robert:] Well no they weren't really, they weren't they hadn't worked in the quarry like like us. They only did they were new to the quarry really. But they were on this bonus system you know, they were you know on the bonus but they weren't quarry men. They didn they ne hadn't been working in a quarry all that long. [speaker002:] What sort of work had they erm been engaged in? [Robert:] Well driving and for erm you know he had plant hire, he'd been driving for him and that. That's what they had been doing before. They hadn't been working on the slate face, they hadn't worked any slate, but they were doing all right on the tables, you know on the sawing the slate up for the others. And then you had a couple of scabs, they were slaters, this is one or two of them, they went back. And so with the help of these, they just managed to do a bit of slate, but if them had not gone back, I thinks this this strike would have turned the other way. Stop 'em having any any slate at all, that's what we wanted to do. You stop 'em from any s scrap of slate e. [speaker002:] C c can you gi give me some clue now a about w when the penny began to drop that trouble was going to g g going to start? [Robert:] Well no when we started when the strike started in the mill, I told then, you know y I don't know what you are going to do with us, I said, but the way you are carrying on now you are going to bring trouble into this quarry, cos these lads aren't going to give in to you at all that quick, what you're trying to do, make them work for thirty pound a week less, so you better think it over now, I said, before it gets any worse. But he wasn't prepared to do that, he just, he wasn't worried about us. He'd put his mind to it that he wouldn't, you know this he had it in mind that we were going to work for this thirty pound a week less, take it or leave it. He wasn't prepared to do anything else. Wasn't prepared to to let us go on now that same wages as before. [speaker002:] How did i it come about that y you were placed in the situation that you were going to get thirty pounds a week less? [Robert:] Well he s all he made a little contract out himself, you know that's what he did, after he he'd put these new tables in the mill. He made a contract then out for us. And we worked on this contract for two month, to try it out for him but we were thirty pound a week less, and we had over two hundred slates a day more, on the on this contract. T we were thirty pound a week less. [background smash] But nobody was prepared for it, to take it and that's how it was. [speaker002:] [cough] What w was it about th the new tables that produced the situation? [Robert:] Well these tables he bought, well I hadn't seen tables like that before, he bought them in Italy somewhere. And they were sawing these slates in into blocks, you know sawing them square like into the size of the slate, they were quite handy. But the time involved to saw them was too much. The other table what we had before was better, was no much so much time involved, by the time you'd screw them round and turn 'em, to saw them into blocks there was a lot of time involved in it. Cos we're loosing a lot on 'em. But they were handy when you had them sawed, cos they were quicker for the slate, I said to er splitter they were quicker then to split 'em up. But we found we were sawing a lot of stuff up, was no good for the slate making, you know it it's got to be good for slate making, a lot of veins and lots of muck in 'em. But the tables were good then but erm too much time involved in them, in in sawing with in them. That's what I found out. [speaker002:] W w where they w w once when they'd been installed or was it thought that it a mistake had been made in obviously a lot of cash had been spent on them but erm, was it considered a mis a waste of money or? [Robert:] Well it was a waste well I'll tell you what it was really, he saw a lot of waste on the other tables going on the tip you know, there was a lot of waste going over. Well these tables were doing away with a lot of waste. Getting more slates not so much waste out of them, cos these tables were sawing er them into blocks. There was no what we call, ends on on the slate, you know going over the tip, there was not so much waste with them there as the new tables. [speaker002:] Why is it that this machine c c could trim it on all sides? [Robert:] Yeah we used to trim 'em with a hammer and chisel before [speaker002:] Yeah. [Robert:] and there was a lot of waste, but these new tables did bring that, it was something for the company it was more than anything, you know cos we were on the bonus system. Slate we wanted to produce we want, you know if there a lot a bit of waste going over the tip, we weren't so much worried bout the waste, cos we was on the bonus we were making the slates and that. But he was worried more about the waste then then ours contract... That's what he was... cos there was a lot of waste on the old tables, and they make a bit more waste than on these new tables there. [speaker002:] [clears throat] Ha ha ha ha how did it come about that you were on you were on one side very firmly and the employers were on the other side very firmly and sides had been had been drawn up? [Robert:] [sigh] [cough] Well I don't think and nobody will turn this you know this he nobody would, he'd put his mind to something and there is nobody on earth that could turn him. Nobody on earth could turn him to do er to er change his mind. And behind him again there was his son-in-law, you know that only he's worse than. Then the one that runs the quarry to us, he's well he's worse only he was behind it in a way, he had he was the one with the brains, he was the one that new how to get the men to work for nothing. He was behind ee he had the brains, and was carrying it out for him, cos erm... this erm I dunno if you know him eh, he runs this quarry to us up here. Oh he's terrible there, he even had them he had young girls working for him up there, and they found out they were paying he was paying them too little and then he got caught up with 'em, and erm what he done after he charged for taking them up there in the morning and charged 'em for taking them down in the evening with a Land Rover. So he had them both ways didn't he? He's a terrible man that one. Aye but he was behind the this cos they're all in the in the same boat you know, they're all families, family affair isn't it. But they say the old man didn't have anything to do with it, but I dunno, he could have had something to do with it, I dunno. I I dunno there... [speaker002:] Can you give some idea of how it came about that you in fact decided... strike? [Robert:] When we started [cough] well we were in trouble in York [tape change] When we at then we were going on the go slow system you know, we didn't produce much slate we were on the go work to rule. We let this carry that out for a month or so, and he was very annoyed about it. And then erm the lads in both they had decided they were gonna go on the go slow, but they were told if you go go on the on the go slow system, you're gonna go home, he said, I'm not prepared to carry on with that, he said, the manager there, that's brother that is. When a they were sent home from we went home from this quarry then, and the everybody went home so the the were forty of us in altogether. Everybody went home an, we were all on picket line after. [speaker002:] Have you got any idea of [clears throat] w what they thought then of the fact that you were all acting, the three quarries, were acting as erm one body? [Robert:] Well we were all union members, and everybody wanted to be together, if you are if you are in the union well we had to stuck together an the the more we stayed together the stronger we are, to keep out if we can stay out. That's what we always thinking of ain't it. And it was last August, last August Bank Holiday this was started, just before the Bank Holiday weekend when i cos we were all on that gates, Bank Holiday weeks, stopping all the traffic going in there... Yea... That's how the know is, maybe if we'd a gone back then and,yo you know, if he, he offered us to go back then about September. Yeah to go back to work on this Thursday but we didn't go an all we should have gone then. And tried to get some settlement, but I don't believe it are giving us any settlement cos he wasn't prepared to do anything like that. And I know he had, you know he was stubborn, he wouldn't give in, nobody would he give in to nobody then. He was stupid, stubborn that's what he was. [speaker002:] When you first erm when you first came out on strike. Did you have any idea how long you would be out [Robert:] Well everybody thought we'd be out for a week or so, but we were out for a month or er more when these scabs started going back. Well I knew then it was gonna finish off, you know. If more would have gone back then the strike would have come to an end quicker cos, I thought more would have gone back then, but all the lads in they stayed out and nobody went in... to work. [speaker002:] When the others went back to work, how did you manage to stop anyone else from going back to work? [Robert:] Well all th all these lads that have gone back, they were having a hell of a life in the town of course. [cough] If they went for a drink everybody was calling them scabs and if they went anywhere then, some some had their cars sprayed with paint and oh they had everything done, they were all against them. And the still now. The they were scabs then and the scabs now, and they'll always be scabs all their lives now. They will be called scabs wherever they go. [speaker002:] Er even e even n now they are marked men yes? [Robert:] Yes they'd like if they were in South Wales, in South Wales you know if your grandfather was a scab, you'd be a scab wouldn't you, they carry it out in generations there. And I believe, in this it's brought a lot of thing in this town there small town like this. Cos these lads now that have gone back, and they were scabs then and they'll scabs they will be all their lives now. Everybody will be looking at them as scabs, wherever they go. No matter what they do... they'll always be scabs. No, and as for and I dunno. I suppose they've shot better men than 'em... Aye.. [speaker002:] Yes [Robert:] Could be. I couldn't have shot any worse I don't think... so I don't know what'll happen. Well I'm not worried cos I'm over sixty there, but these lads, I'm worried about these lads, that have mortgages and children to rear up they had lots of worries, and they still have. But these quarry owners they're not worried about them. They just worried about themselves... [speaker002:] Mm is it rather on the ye yo yo you said earlier on that er the old s s system of striking bargains was on a individual basis? [Robert:] Yes. [speaker002:] on, on a team of or a contract of four men. So there's obviously a tradition of people of the quarry men and the quarry owners talking to each other. [Robert:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Was the fact that there was no talking going on, completely surprising from the point of view of the tradition of bargaining? [Robert:] Yeah well in the old days, you know [cough] everybody was in the union. You couldn't work in the quarry, you couldn't go through the gate in the quarry without being a union man, in the old days there. And there was this system of four men in a bargain, nobody knew the other man's wages, we were all on different wage, everybody was on a different wage. And if you were well in with the staff and the owners of the quarry you'd have more bonus. They'd fix you up with er better bonus, but if you were a black leg they'd er be on less wagers. That's what is was it was a terrible system there, but that was the system, that was the system they carried through the quarries in all the years that are gone. It is contract it's a monthly contract you work for three weeks for one pound sixteen shillings and at the end of the month they count all the slates you've done during the month. And you get this little bonus at the end of the month, maybe a couple of quid on top of your one pound sixteen shillings. That's what they were doing, and then if you made too much slate this month, the following month they'd drop your bonus down, so as to see as to keep you on the same level, so you couldn't go any higher if you if you had good slate and worked your guts out. And the following month they drop you, that's how they used to do it... [speaker002:] Was there any sense that er you were in fact being put in the same position as your parents had been your your grandparents, had been in in in the sense not being able to get above a certain level by having your wages your bonus cut? [Robert:] Well they I I tell you this they they we'd worked for him for er good many years and there was no talk of any cuts in wages, we had this wages all through the through these years, and everybody was happy with it. Everybody were working on it and everybody was working a g a g a good days work and hard cos slate quarry work has always been hard anyway. But everybody was happy there, and er, till this came along, he's the one that wanted us to work for less. [speaker002:] When he came along how could you see things had changed or how could you see in the process of changing? [Robert:] Well straight away the first thing he done was to put these new tables in, and that was his idea when he put these tables in to get more slate, and less wages. I dunno whether he he thought his father paid us too much, I dunno, but erm that's what he had in mind to start with, was drop the wages down thirty pound a week. For everybody. [speaker002:] Was there any alteration in the style of management at all? [Robert:] No, not a thing jus we were all working, just on the same, everybody was working,fr real hard but erm. He had that in mind all the time to to cut the wages down, that's what they wanted to do. That's what he wanted to do to from the start, cut the wages down and make more slate, that's what he had in mind. He wasn't prepared to do anything else there... no ar... and he was he was to have these plant hire, you know these two, when when his old man used to work us us in the quarry, well this was working up there as well, he had lads working on the plant hire for him. He had about a dozen lorries on the road, and machines er working the roads there, all they were working for nothing for him, these lads and he'd come along and before Christmas he'd stop a couple of them, just before Christmas, he used to do that every year. Stop 'em, just before Christmas he used to stop 'em. And my son-in-law he was working with him, and when he had that accident, well it's ridiculous what he done that day. When he reversed that dumper over the tip. Eleven o'clock in the morning, and lost his leg. And he held the wages of the afternoon of him. No I'd r I thought that was really terrible there. Stopping a man's afternoon wages after he lost a leg. Er it was, and he was only paying him twenty two pound a week... at the time. [speaker002:] Was that considered a hard thing at the time? [Robert:] Very hard, very hard I told the lads I told 'em... the union about it what he done that day. Must must be terrible man to do a thing like that eh. And you know is after an accident like that, well, we never, the old slate quarry company wouldn't do that, they'd pay the day off in one a serious accident like that. But that holding the afternoon off him after loosing a leg I think that was really terrible... aye. [speaker002:] When it became obvious that the strike wasn't going to last a fortnight or it wasn't going to last a month. How did you organize yourselves to stay together? [Robert:] Well we had a meeting every week, a a union meeting, every week. And we had the fantastic help in from South Wales, most thos terribly good er people were terribly good to us in organizing er different things. Many supported us and the present the people. Fantastic I never thought of anything like it, the money was coming in everywhere. They really did help us... Aye. [speaker002:] W w w w what sort of er p p people or organize or organizations where helping you then? [Robert:] Well union, you know the union in the coal mines and all different well er everywhere in the North Wales here to, postmen, well every union was helping us with them. Organizations and er money coming in everywhere and food parcels. They were helping everybody. I never thought of anything like that, I couldn't believe it. Really fantastic, and there's still money in the fund now, for after it. There was money coming in from overseas, Germany, Belgium, Holland, there wa everywhere helping us. Aye. [speaker002:] W w w w were you as erm a large were you organized in any way in ord d er to c con t t t tinue the strike le le length of time? [Robert:] Well we could a continued it for erm, well I dunno, but erm it was getting a bit out of hand with the picket line really, cos there was a lot of these youngsters who weren't prepared to do these picket line. You know they were coming there this week and they wouldn't come there for three or four weeks or something, thinking with this picket but it was very important to keep that gate, stop everybody from going in there. But there was a lo lots of these youngsters who wouldn't prepared to do this picket business. As they they got fed up with it I suppose I dunno er. But there was no point in carrying it on really you know it. If we'd a carried it on for... say this time of the year now you with this erm Whitsun Holiday now, we'd have had to to do it seven days a week, cos you'd have to be there Saturday and Sunday to stop anything going in there. But they weren't prepared to do it were they. You know these youngsters they weren't prepared to stay on that gate. [speaker002:] W w w was the... the encouragement then for the picket from the older men? [Robert:] Well we c couldn't we had a lot of arguments about it you know in the union meetings about this picket line. But we couldn't make anybody do it, you know they'd say, anyway that we'll do it, there's there's next week they wouldn't catch you up some of them. So er er well we couldn't carry it out, cos the the ones who weren't prepared to do the picket wasn't erm going to do it, we'd have to do more of 'em to keep these youngsters on doing the picket, you know. [speaker002:] Where they then a group of people who, to whom the burden of being on p p per picket falling more and more? [Robert:] Yes that's how that's how it was, [sigh] yes all I was on that gate, I'd been on that gate myself dozens of times. On my own there... I I wasn't worried about it er you know. But if one... i man does the picket and the others don't, well it's gonna not gonna go show are they. That's what the company wanted us you know to break up on it. They wanted us, if everybody would have gone with me too the picket. That's what these slate quarry owners wanted us for us to fall back. The strike would have fall apart then. That's how it was... It had fallen apart with er without. Everybody was standing, they was gonna go out. That's why all these collieries have a different in it. You know these self worth they're so terrible keen aren't they. [speaker002:] When you began to make all sort of when c contacts began to be made between erm you and South Wales in terms of support [Robert:] Yeah. [speaker002:] D did you get any sort of erm, apart from financial support and material support, did you get any moral support of how a strike should be con conducted? [Robert:] Oh yes they were they were telling us not to pack up there that keep the g gate going and you know they were, keep it going and they they'd er help us. For years to come because if they stay out they give us hundred percent help to carry on with it. But erm... I dunno there's some of them weren't prepared to carry on with it, you know these youngsters, there was a lot of 'em they wouldn't, anyway everybody's not hundred percent you're not going to get anywhere with anything. [speaker002:] You f emphasized the fact of erm s solidarity fr fr from want of a better word. [Robert:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm was it in your opinion because the young men had a lot of financial pressures [Robert:] [sigh] [speaker002:] that they they weren't as s solid as the older men let's say or was it because they hadn't [Robert:] No they hadn't a... no they... they started alright on that picket but as time rolled on and they was getting erm fed up with it, you know they that's how it went as they were getting, oh I we won't go up there today, bugger it. And that's how it happened and you know some weren't prepared to s stay there on the gate an... watch that nobody don't go in it er. [speaker002:] When you were in, when you were discussing these things in the l lodge meeting erm d d d did the younger men sort of indicate how they felt towards the picket? [Robert:] Oh aye, know these youngsters today, they not er not the same as when we were young I don't think. They don't seem to worry about anything a lot of these youngsters today. You know if you're out on strike you're out on strike and must make it hundred percent, that's how it is. Cos if you do anything you doing you must do it, go at it the right way and stick to it, ain't it. But a lot of these youngsters er you know. There was a few in the lads they were just didn't want to do this picket line. And they were letting the burden on the others weren't they, to do it. And there was lots of the we came to an end and... if we were going to carry on with this further we the... everybody was getting a bit fed up with it. We were all getting fed up with it cos, having to stay on the gate five hours a day you know, three or four times a week. Was really poor there but... I dunno if we'd er stayed there or... and carried on with it. [speaker002:] Was the er erm attention of the press, the television, the radio, the support of the local M. P., er m ministers in the town, university students, and all the other... organizations, was that in in any way a help? [Robert:] Oh yes, it was a help the students give us a fantastic help you know, in financially and the the came on that gate a lots of times with us. They were on that gate with us very often, in the mornings and that. And er the M. P. on this he was up there with us, he was hundred percent too with us. Oh yes, we had fantastic support out of them... aye fantastic. Everybody was p hundred percent, everybody. But it was the scabs er that well they put us down to start with, and then the was picket line started cracking up... was the these lads not prepared to do it. That how it went out of hand in the end in it. And everybody was getting a bit bored with it cos as it dragged on this is s seven months when you know a long time to be... I never thought it would have gone this as long as that when we started off with it. [speaker002:] Where you erm aware at all that people were were having serious financial problems? [Robert:] There's quite a few there with had fantastic trouble with their finances you know. Cos the mortgages and that but there's a lot of them, and kids causing it, and Christmas was coming well you know we just, that's when they helped us at Christmas was really fantastic yes, true I never thought anything... really out of this world how the how the people helped... We got toys and everything for the kids' Christmas, everything you could think of. Nobody or kids were short of a thing, cos erm people from everywhere were sending things. And everybody had a t a twelve pound turkey... each. Aye... everything was gi really fantastic the people that helped the people that gave to the strike, out of this world I know the help they had was really fantastic. [speaker002:] You e mentioned earlier on that people received er food parcels? [Robert:] Yes. [speaker002:] Ha ha ha how was this organized? [Robert:] Well the erm the girls were doing all the the wives were doing all the food parcels every week. They were going up to the we call it. And they were organizing food parcels for every striker. And delivering them around on a Friday night and Saturday morning. And it's a really good parcel,th they thought of everything they had everything in the in the food parcel, very good. [speaker002:] What sort of things would [Robert:] Oh. [speaker002:] you you know sort of [Robert:] [cough] had erm eggs, butter, tea, everything you could you needed was in there, and tins of all different kind of soup and were apples, oranges, everything was in there, in the parcel. Really good parcel every week they were having. [speaker002:] Would [tape change]

[speaker001:] Hello. Local rivalry unlimited as the two big footballing cities of the East Midlands lock antlers. And you know who's here to survey the wreckage if indeed there is any. Greavesey of course and at the risk of overdosing on goals you can see all the action that mattered from the First Division yesterday. And there's more, our profile of one of Europe's men of the week Aston Villa's Aussie Mark Bosnich. Now on the subject of Aston Villa we can confirm that despite today's report to the contrary, the two million pound transfer of Tony Daley to is on. The former England winger will shortly be on his way to Italy as we're about to hear from Ron Atkinson and Gary Newbon. [Gary Newbon:] There are reports in today's paper Ron that there are problems with the Tony Daley deal to Italy because of personal terms is this true? [Ron Atkinson:] I don't think so I mean I left it all last night and everything seemed er amicable and er I haven't heard anything to the contrary today. Erm the way I understand the situation is Tony's happy with er his arrangement and that the clubs have agreed and I think it's just a matter of them going back now to report back to their President the Italian people and then the way I see it he'll he'll go after the er game for a medical and you know there shouldn't be any problems there. [Gary Newbon:] Looks good business at Villa I mean he's an exciting player but two million pounds that's a huge fee. [Ron Atkinson:] Well in this day and age you get your reserve team player normally. Erm I think what it is I think it's a it's a it's a deal that's should suit all parties. I mean Tony's been at the club a long time he's expressed a wish to go erm his style and his age is probably just right to go on the continent, he's twenty six years of age and er I would guess that his particular style wou possibly would be better suited to continental play than it is in England. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Yeah good diplomacy from Ron cos I think that's a cracking deal for Villa but anyway that's that sorted out. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Not half oh. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Let's turn our attention to today's little matter Leicester and Nottingham Forest. Yet another Midlands Derby and I think this season [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well [Tony Francis, 'ton':] we've worked out each of the Midlands clubs has to play sixteen Midlands Derbies [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Yeah we [Tony Francis, 'ton':] which is great for us. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] It's great for us we we [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Is it good for them? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] well we say that but I mean they're not really Derbies. If you take the extreme Stoke Peterborough you wouldn't call that a Derby or Oxford versus Derby County. You would hardly call that a Derby. There are games in our region and as you rightly say they're great for us but er I wouldn't say that they're Derbies I mean the Derbies are are Birmingham West Brom and West Brom [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Wolves [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] and Wolves and obviously today's game is a Derby [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Leicester Forest Derby yeah [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] That's right but but you wouldn't say that they're all Derbies Tony would you not really I wouldn't have thought so anyway. Fergy's at the game is he? [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Yeah Alex Ferguson. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Alex Ferguson I wonder who he wants er I I think it could be that he's after you know. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] [LAUGHTER] He certainly needs some more players you know he's not got enough. Well we'll probably find out now let's er go straight over to Filbert Street where we can join our commentators Alan Parry and Ron Atkinson. [Alan Parry:] Well the new Filbert Street taking shape the five million pound main stand official open since our last visit here and when the lower tier is completed by the end of the year the stand will house about ten thousand people all seated and under cover. One facility has already had plenty of use and that's the physio's room. Leicester have had to cope with a lot of injuries in the early part of the season the most serious blow the loss of Steve Walsh. His height and strength will be badly missed in attacked as Leicester field what must be the smallest striking partnership in the First Division. Julian Jochim the star of England's youth team last season is just five feet six inches tall and David Speedy towers over him with a lofty five feet seven. The message to Leicester's midfield is, keep the ball on the ground. Well Leicester could go third in the table if they win today and as Brian Little points out that's a big improvement on their early position. [Brian Little:] I think the last time you were here we were actually in the bottom half of the table but shot up to about seventh and since then once we got close to the people with games in hand and catching on the extra games we've come up into the top three sometimes. So today puts us back into third place if we win and and obviously we want to be there. [Alan Parry:] And you hit a Forest team that's unbeaten for the last five matches. [Brian Little:] Yeah I think we're going to have a major say in what goes on this season. I mean er they've had so many problems injury wise I doubt whether they've played the same tw the same team twice at any stage this season and er on the day with the players they've got available they're going to have a a major say in this league this season. [Alan Parry:] Well like Leicester Nottingham Forest have been ravaged by injuries. Carl Tyler and Gary Bull yet to kick a ball this season. Ian Leigh Glover making slow recoveries but at least there's good news in the return of centre half Colin Cooper who starts his first game for two months and two recently injured strikers are back in tandem, ironically the biggest partnership in the Division. Leading scorer Stan Collimore a massive six feet four and his sidekick Robert Rozario a diminutive six foot three. Does that mean Forest midfield will keep the ball in the air I wonder. Well Forest have recently enjoyed an unbeaten spell, Frank Clark a much happier man. [Frank Clark:] Yes er we've five games now and er although we haven't won as as many as I would've liked at least erm we've stayed unbeaten. Er we're getting a few bodies back into the team emptying the treatment room and and things are looking a lot better. [Ron Atkinson:] A very hard game for you this against Leicester but you do have Collimore in form. [Frank Clark:] Yes I mean Stan missed Wednesday and I think we missed him and it's good to have him back today it it will be a very difficult game. You know I think Leicester are one of the er one of the real favourites in this Division to go up. It's a local Derby er and let's just hope it's a good game and everybody enjoys it. [Alan Parry:] And the referee John Kirby from Sheffield starting the game and that's earlier than he should have done. You haven't missed anything though. Cooper gets the first header away. It's a very very windy day here by the way and cold as well and I think that's gonna have some affect on the game. Difficult to see which way the wind is blowing at the moment it's quite swirling. Anyway he'll judge that one well but it's er falls neatly for Gemmell and a good lay off here to Kingsley Black early chance for Nottingham Forest and really Kingsley Black will be as they say rather disappointed he didn't do better there Ron Atkinson. [Ron Atkinson:] Well a great situation Scott Gemmell followed up the long ball picked up the as they ran at the defence and then he's committed to play it and then he's just just slid it in nicely for Kingsley Black on his left side. And really he should really have gone across the face of the goal with it. He's gone for the narrow side he's tried to squeeze it in the in the near post when he'd got all the far post to go for. But that's a shocking that's a shocking let off. [Alan Parry:] And that was only about a minute of the game gone and I dare say er Ian whose place he's taking on that left-hand side would have relished that kind of opportunity. Anyway Leicester have won a free kick midway inside the Forest half. The ball set up for to drive it straight into the wall Speedy then tried the shot... Oldfield takes over.... And Leicester forced to go all the way back into their own half.... This is Hill Speedy an excellent ball and a very good tackle on Speedy by Cooper. Speedy won't agree at the moment because he's writhing in agony and there's a little bit of retribution that followed that. But I personally felt that that was a good tackle on Speedy, Ron how did you see it? [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah I think Colin Cooper stepped in to play very very very quickly and that's something I think Frank Clarke w will be looking for from him. He's he's a quick nimble defender Speedy was just hanging hanging on waiting for the ball to be played into him and I must confess I didn't really see anything afterwards I mean well if you look at that that doesn't seem anything untoward does it? Well he's probably just caught him on the back of on the back of the calf but er I thought it was as you say I thought it was a nice sharp incisive tackle. [Alan Parry:] Another second Forest player seemed to go in then I don't know whether it was him that caught Speedy rather than Cooper with the initial challenge. Anyway David Speedy [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah was in a little tumble job there but I I honestly don't think he if he caught him it was quite accidental. [Alan Parry:] Yeah I'm sure you're right. [Ron Atkinson:] And I was just thinking then that er Frank Clarke will want will want that sort of speed across the across the ground from Cooper, it's perhaps something they've lack in recent games stability at the heart of their defence of Notts Forest. [Alan Parry:] Turn forward by Phillips and then Agnew captaining Leicester wins it back again. This is Whitlow driving it long to Speedy. Agnew loses out in the challenge in midfield but Gemmell manages to find Black not long for Collimore but too long.... Gavin Ward has missed only one game in Leicester's goal since he arrived in the summer from Cardiff City.... And with the aid of the wind got an awful lot of distance on that kick and almost earned side a corner, it was only just kept in by his opposite number Tommy Wright. I think the wind Ron is er behind Leicester's backs in this half. [Ron Atkinson:] Yes you would you just wonder whether Forest back four might just push up a little bit higher and let the ball carry through to the keeper every time. [Alan Parry:] Here goes Kingsley Black again getting in behind the defenders but he rather over played his first touch then. And the Northern Ireland International surprisingly finding himself in the clear twice already in the first five minutes, although that was er obviously not a chance. The first one certainly was. Cooper's header clear Thomson wins it back for Leicester, gets it back again from Greyson. Lovely passer of the ball Steve Thomson and he finds young Neil Lewis on the left and this lad's very effective indeed going forward. Hill and Collimore collide and Leicester did well to win that back. A long ball by Greyson, Chettle is underneath it. Kingsley Black... [Ron Atkinson:] A little bit unfortunate there Kingsley Black he's played he's played a nice ball down the side down the channel but that's the sort of ball Collimore would have thrived on. I don't think it was that Robert Rozario'd admit to being the quickest player in the world. But that so we think that's an area where Forest will try and try and exploit just playing down the sides of the er Leicester centre halves and let er Collimore use this great pace of his. I saw him play here last year for Southend and to be fair he absolutely ripped er the Leicester defence apart. [Alan Parry:] Oldfield taking a bit of a risk there on the edge of his own box but Leicester got away with it. Lewis forward to Ormanroyd, Moore sticking very very tight and in the end pushing the Leicester man.... And the free kick goes in early to Jochim. just cajoles his goalkeeper to come out and collect that one. [Ron Atkinson:] Yes they're gonna have a little bit of a problem Leicester. I mean their stock play normally is er a quality ball from Thomson into big Walsh well you know with Walsh missing they they've gotta sort of be a little bit more inventive with their free kicks. Speedy can of course you know he's a good little leaper for a small lad but they're not just gonna be able to whack the ball up there. They're gonna have to play their way in. [Alan Parry:] Yes incidentally Steve Walsh has er that serious knee injury ligaments have been injured I think they're still not sure exactly how long he's gonna be out. But it is gonna be a lengthy er injury and that is a major blow so successfully converted from centre half to striker. The linesman has flagged there and it's gone Nottingham Forest way. Just talking of Walsh incidentally he scored twenty goals in his thirty seven games since moving in to attack. That's how effective he'd been. Rozario calling for the high ball and wins it Colin Collimore won back then by Greyson and a difficult one for the goalkeeper as Phillips came in on him and Forest win the throw.... Stewart Pierce very deep cross towards Rozario and it dropped nicely for Whitlow to clear. Speedy's lay-off Thomson collides the Forest man Gemmell and the whistle has gone eventually for a free kick to Forest. Foul on Steve Stone.... Gemmell Rozario he's gone well here Rozario he's done very well and then he hit it straight against his own man. Collimore Thomson for Leicester Speedy Agnew Lewis on the left, it's a bit short that ball Lewis did well to get it. Now Agnew again, great ball for Speedy and that's the kind of defending that Forest have been missing from Colin Cooper... Just hurt his shoulder then but he's er still holding it as play goes on and Whitlow quite clearly holding Collimore then... [Ron Atkinson:] Yes I think you saw there Whitlow's respect for Collimore he doesn't want him to get turn round and running at him because big Stan's got great touch and he's got very very he's got explosive pace. [Alan Parry:] Here is Collimore Phillips down the right flank he was offside that was unlucky from Forest's point of view and Collimore dumped to the ground when he played the ball away then and er... he's just holding er his shin just above his ankle there... and Cooper is still in trouble from that er shoulder he injured moments ago... Cooper's all right to continue and the Forest physio Graham Myers busy treating Collimore. Busy is something Graham Myers has been all season with all Forest injuries... Ward with a free kick gets it clear straight to Thomson though... Greyson... Thomson Gemmell closes down the room immed that's a very good ball. Agnew... Speedy coming in Ormanroyd then got in his way rather but it comes still to Thomson he lays it off to Lewis and the cross is too hard. [Ron Atkinson:] Some good football there from Leicester City all inspired by Steve Thomson. Given time and space he's he's an excellent midfield player you know. He's got great feet he can pass the ball superbly and he he sees things he spreads the play. I mean he tried the Forest defence out on the left-hand side t to start with switched the player and got young Lewis in and really Forest could have done with a better ball er sorry Leicester could have done with a better final ball from Lewis. [Alan Parry:] Well this is worrying now for Forest because Cooper's gone down again holding that shoulder. It's his first er match or at least the first he's started since the opening weeks of the season. He did come on as a substitute against er Oxford in midweek and Frank Clarke's first signing injured his shoulder in this collision with Speedy. Complete accident. Got a kick on the head as well.... It's the shoulder that's giving him a problem and er that's always tricky because er it can er obviously affect the way a defender approaches the more physical aspect of his job. [Ron Atkinson:] They can't really expect him to have a physical game this afternoon can they with David Speedy? [Alan Parry:] [LAUGHTER] Well another physical challenge in midfield seen there by the referee and Forest get the free kick and the ball was rolling when Pearce took it. It [LAUGHTER] was a great kick actually [] out to Phillips on the right it was a pity it was moving.... Still nil nil eleven and a half minutes gone.... Chettle looking for Rozario and finds him and it goes towards Collimore just cleared in the nick of time by Whitlow. Now Oldfield for Leicester City.... Greyson... All too easy for Stone to win back. Nice control on the ball by Gemmell Rozario shakes off the first challenge from Whitlow and feeds Black. Has Collimore outside him... and Collimore drives his cross in and is cleared by Hill Thomson playing it back in, difficult one for Greyson and he was a little bit fortunate I think there to find Thomson who's given it away anyway. Stewart Pearce Rozario wants it played in quickly. Oldfield prevented the cross now Collimore... not quite and Agnew did well. Ormanroyd good ball for Speedy and on it goes to Jochim but it's too long.... [Ron Atkinson:] There's a little bit of a more measured ball there by David Speedy could have put Jochim with a real shout. He'd made a super little dart across the line of Forest defenders.... [Alan Parry:] Phillips straight to Hill... and that's a long ball aimed at Ormanroyd Cooper across to cover and you just saw him grimace a little bit again there as he charged in on Ormanroyd. That shoulder obviously still him a problem he seems to be holding it a little bit awkwardly as it comes in to Speedy now. Chettle gets it away. [Ron Atkinson:] That would be a little bit of a problem for Frank Clarke if er Cooper has got a problem with his shoulder you know if it's if it's serious because looking at his people on his bench you know Neil Webb and Crosby and looking at the make-up of his team he hasn't really got anybody he could slot back in there unless he put er Rozario in there. [Alan Parry:] Yes that's true it's a good point. So it'll be er very important that the injury doesn't affect Cooper for too long here. [Ron Atkinson:] Having said that he's been out that long you know Alan and Cooper he'll not want to miss any more football surely? [Alan Parry:] Leicester City get the throw-in. Jochim won it... Greyson not a very good ball Gemmell wins it back for Forest now Black forward Collimore's offside and that looked a very close decision. [Ron Atkinson:] Ooh I'd like [LAUGHTER] to look at that one again Alan []. I mean that's bang in front of us and that's that's the sort of area they'll be looking to play the ball down the sides for Collimore's pace and I wouldn't wonder on it. I would wonder I made him, well it doesn't clearly show it there, I made him onside from our position. [Alan Parry:] Meanwhile Agnew lifts it in and there is another offside decision and this time it's gone in Forest's favour. Speedy was offside. [Ron Atkinson:] I think Stan Collimore's just said to the ref to the linesman on this side you know I started my run from m my half of the field... but that would be a dangerous game to play against somebody with his pace is to give him too much space at the back of him. [Alan Parry:] Oh that's a lovely header on as well it almost reached Rozario Greyson gets it clear. Chettle back into the Leicester half now Thomson and Agnew combining well and the first time Ball volleyed out towards Ormanroyd.... Needs some help and gets it from Thomson who started this move off and lifted in towards Agnew, Cooper clears it still hasn't gone out and er Phillips just prevented it I think going for a corner, yes it's a throw. Thomson again for Leicester City looking very influential early on here. This is Lewis only nineteen this lad and very pacey and wins the corner.... [Ron Atkinson:] Yes you're spot there Alan erm Stevie Thomson is pulling all the strings for Leicester. I'm a little bit surprised Stone hasn't tried to get a bit closer to him although I think he's been given the job of tracking Agnew who's more of an attacking midfield player. [Alan Parry:] Thomson takes the corner as well. Whitlow coming in on that near post the goalkeeper was very decisive then and er has benefited by getting the free kick Tommy Wright. [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah that might be of those situations with the referee being over protective towards the goalkeeper. I don't really think he had a claim on that ball the goalie. I mean he's come out over the top of his own defenders and i over big Ormanroyd and he can do little else but push it back down into the pack. [Alan Parry:] Couldn't really see how there was a foul there.... Another free kick has been given this time against big Mike Whitlow... Lively start to the game and a lively start for the referee. Eleven free kicks for fouls already. Gemmell swings the latest free kick into the box Pearce did well to win that one. Hill only half clear and that's a goal kick. [Ron Atkinson:] But I think we're seeing something in the Forest side we haven't see for what twelve fourteen years are we. They just they th they refu you know they lift balls into the box now. I mean we've always associated Forest with playing their way into the penalty area now with Rozario er with Collimore they've got the licence or the facility just to knock long balls through the air at them.... [Alan Parry:] This is Kingsley Black and again he looks to use Collimore's pace and he moved into a great position there Collimore. Whitlow across to block he still gets the cross in that was dangerous. Agnew and Hill combining to get is clear but it's a corner and that cross caused real problems to Leicester. [Ron Atkinson:] There's no danger if Leicester don't seal off this space. Here's that ball again up alongside. Defenders gone deep and kept Collimore on side and this is where you expect Stan to do his trick. Actually he's tried to play it in early there.... [Alan Parry:] Collimore will remain a threat from the corner he has just won. Rozario on the near post Chettle also has come forward for this kick and it goes in towards that near post area where Oldfield takes no chances. Second successive corner then for Forest and again it's aimed at Rozario who wins it this time that's dangerous. Scrambled away by Hill to Jochim. Lovely little turn he's deceived Cooper he's got the pace to go all the way here Jochim. How does the referee interpret that foul? Moore's the guilty player Jochim had got away from him and unless the referee decides that there was another defender coming round on the cover there Moores could be in big trouble. [Ron Atkinson:] I think you'll find Cooper was just a touch deeper than him albeit very wide. I think Colin Cooper just got round the side of this a brilliant run from Young good turn and he's a he's attacked the heart of the defence and look at Cooper's position now I think he's just slightly nearer to the keeper than Laws. [Alan Parry:] The yellow card for a foul on Jochim and but Laws will be relieved he certainly could have gone for that. Some referees might have interpreted that as a sending off offence.... Whitlow driving the free kick into the wall and then lays it off to Lewis stabbed in and away by Collimore. Whitlow again finding Thomson... now Agnew... Pearce up well and Agnew on to it again... Lewis... Oldfield comes into the game Thomson. Good football this by Leicester Jochim across by Greyson Ormanroyd coming in on the back post. Pearce gets it away to Oldfield... well he's scored some really spectacular goals in his career David Oldfield and he wasn't far off with that shot. [Ron Atkinson:] I must confess when this one dropped down at him and he chested it out it's a lovely little bit of link up play by Jochim again. Good early ball in partial clearance I thought Ormanroyd might have got on that. Partial clearance here from Stewart Pearce. Now this is and I must admit when he pulled the trigger then I thought that was going to go right in the back of the net. But a good piece of attacking play from Weston. All credit to them they know they haven't got a big guy apart from Ormanroyd as an outlet player so they're prepared to be patient and build up and pass the ball al pass their way through. [Alan Parry:] Leicester City in the middle of a good spell of form here. Seventh in the table of the start of play nineteen points from their ten games six wins a draw and three defeats. And unbeaten here at Filbert Street in six matches in League and Cup. Matches in hand on the sides all around them in the table and of course the team that has gone very very close to promotion the last two seasons loing losing in the playoff final. Looking in the mood and the form to be up there again.... Greyson Gemmell comes in to win it back for Forest. Black was weak in possession and this is Thomson... now Oldfield Lewis moving down the left... and here he is eventually in possession. But he's lost it again, Forest throw.... Stone no problem for Whitlow although that almost dropped in a bit short for Gavin Ward. [Ron Atkinson:] We do see the problems we've seen it at both ends the goalkeepers have when people chase a lost cause like Rozario's just done there. You know rea no real no real problems at first but then they chase put the keeper under pressure and the keepers tend to panic. [Alan Parry:] Midway through the first half here at Filbert Street still Leicester City nil Nottingham Forest nil but a good game. Good kick there by Ward Chettle wins it Thomson finding Agnew there's Leicester build now with Greyson... Thomson... Lewis making a run down the left... Agnew wins it back again for Leicester, he's playing well.... Thomson Jochim and Gemmell accepts the gift and then gives it back to Oldfield. And a little untidy period of play but here's Lewis to Ormanroyd... Speedy... sets it up for Greyson... and in it goes again towards Agnew the captain... and did that cross the line yes it's a corner. [Ron Atkinson:] Well some of the football Leicester have played in this opening twenty o twenty minutes has been some of the best I've seen them. I I've probably seen them about four or five times in the last six months and they do tend to go a bit route one when Walsh is playing but today their link up play has been excellent. [Alan Parry:] Thomson with the corner he's looking for Whitlow but it was headed by Rozario Thomson can try again. And that flicked off the defender and bounced kindly with Tommy Wright. [Ron Atkinson:] But apart from this er for Leicester this Alan now they're starting to s squeeze a little bit and they've got to be a little bit careful they don't leave Collimore too much space to run into. But at the moment they're starting to dominate the game.... [Alan Parry:] Good header by Rozario Collimore couldn't control it and that's the sort of link up Frank Clarke'll be looking for. Ball onto Rozario a little touch through and then the blistering pace of er Collimore. Rozario wearing a vest I notice there Ron he wouldn't get into your team wearing a vest would he? Jochim turns it through to Speedy who couldn't repeat the dose. Here's Thomson and now Lewis... turned back again by Ormanroyd and Leicester playing some good football in Forest's half.... [Ron Atkinson:] I think Leicester public are gonna have to be a little bit patient with their team. I mean Forest are pulling everybody behind the ball and you know they can't just sling the ball through. They're working is through and they they're playing some super little link up stuff. [Alan Parry:] He's offside here it won't count. Long before er it got to Oldfield Speedy was offside. [Ron Atkinson:] I mean we haven't seen an awful lot of er Julian Jochim yet but th the two occasions when the ball's been fed into him he's shown a brilliant ability to turn with the ball and get at the defenders. And I think if if people like Thomson can sort of give him that sort of service he's going to make life awfully difficult for the Forest de central defence. And his partner there of course Speedy he knows h you know he knows what's what in the game doesn't he. He's seen it all he's been there. [Alan Parry:] Yes this is his eleventh League Club Leicester City.... [Ron Atkinson:] I was reading somewhere this morning where he'd been with eight clubs in one season. [Alan Parry:] [LAUGHTER] Good quiz question that one. Agnew turning it on towards Ormanroyd and the header by Laws was excellent. Back in the side now played six in a row. Des Little the signing from Swansea has been rested because er Frank Clarke felt he'd lost a little bit of confidence in Forest's poor start to the season.... Ormanroyd wins the header Speedy flicks it on again and Chettle er [LAUGHTER] Chettle rather [] got it away as Jochim came in on him. Collimore doing well there he really turned Greyson and he's got Black storming down the left and Rozario to the right. Good running by Oldfield to get back. [Ron Atkinson:] I have to say I think big Stan took the wrong option then you know. [Alan Parry:] It's still chances here for Forest Phillips playing it in again towards Collimore good one handed catch by Ward. [Ron Atkinson:] I thought Collimore had good break three against two and I thought the the ball he should have played he should have measured a ball into er Kingsley Black's stride. It would have given a similar sort of chance to the one he missed in the first minute.... [Alan Parry:] Ormanroyd winning another header inevitably. Jochim to Speedy... Ormanroyd's lay-off a good one for Lewis gets it in quickly on the left foot Ormanroyd and then Speedy collided with Pearce as he went in to try and turn the ball goalwards and it's all ended up a goal kick. [Ron Atkinson:] Another very dangerous tact. I thought Ormanroyd g got more on that actually when he headed it. I thought he'd actually caught a defender as he headed it but er he hasn't really got a good contact on the ball.... I think as you said earlier the wind is playing a big part in the game and I I would I would imagine er the Forest the Forest management'll be very happy to get to half time no score. I think they would fancy their chances going er with the wind behind them. [Alan Parry:] It's a cold wind too I can tell you a real wintry afternoon here.... On the day we lost the hour on the clock it looks as though winter's started in earnest. [Ron Atkinson:] I think winter started in August. [LAUGHTER] I don't know about in earnest. [] [Alan Parry:] [LAUGHTER] Well you should never worry you always manage to find the sunshine somewhere don't you? [Ron Atkinson:] I could do with a little bit up here pall. [Alan Parry:] Here's Collimore. Oh it's a great effort by Collimore.... Splendid work there Ron by the big man. [Ron Atkinson:] Yes he did well. It it's not his best side er his right foot but you know he can weigh in on that side but er he does have a hunger for goals. Which is understandable considering the vein he's in at the moment. [Alan Parry:] That's er eight in seven games for him the last seven. There goes Oldfield... Lewis it's exciting this young man when he goes forward like this. Oh it's a tremendous run and it took a very fine tackle by Chettle to stop him. [Ron Atkinson:] Oh that was brilliant wasn't it? Picked up the pace picked up the square ball here and attacked he went [LAUGHTER] went like a bomb []. That's brill no defender in the world whatever level they are likes being attacked with by a pace player running at them. [Alan Parry:] He really forced the issue there didn't he Lewis and caused the corner. That's a tricky corner too turns it back in an Agnew's header and [shouting] Speedy has turned it in [].... Half an hour gone the captain has an injury but his side have taken the lead. David Speedy's goal. [Ron Atkinson:] Yes and thoroughly deserved. I mean we could sense a goal was coming. [Alan Parry:] Good ball in they they've ch changed the tactic a little bit on this one. Thomson he's hit a deeper corner. [Ron Atkinson:] Yep they've get in each other 's way but there's Speedy a predator yard off the keeper. That's a good area to be on corner kicks when the ball's bobbling about. Just in front of the keeper because it's amazing how many things fall down just in front of the keeper. [Alan Parry:] David Speedy's eighth goal of the season he's top scorer here he got a couple in the last home game against Notts County and that was as Ron perfectly described it a real predator in action there. [Ron Atkinson:] Well I think it's reasonable to say as well it was one that was deserved wasn't it? They've been threatening that for the last fifteen minutes or so. Had a er not the best of starts but they've taken control of the game for my money o over the last period. [Alan Parry:] Agnew has just er received treatment from Alan Smith. He got kicked in the head by his own player Mike Whitlow there but I don't think he'll mind because er it all contributed to the goal. Fourteen minutes of the first half remaining and Leicester City deservedly in front. Here goes Collimore and Black good ball for Rozario... Stone... Black again. Needs the cross now and he supplies it towards Collimore touched away and a shot by Phillips took a deflection off Lewis for a corner. [Ron Atkinson:] And you wouldn't have bet against that fellow volleying one in would you Phillips. I mean that's that's one of his stock in trades he's a superb volleyer of the ball and it was there for a second with a chance was there for a second. [Alan Parry:] Very good signing Phillips has been already he's er played both sides of midfield filled in at centre back as well in recent matches. He's only been with the club a few weeks. Black lifts the corner into the near post and that astonishingly evaded everyone. Jochim took that beautifully Agnew to Speedy good ball. Oldfield nice form out from Leicester. My word they're spraying it around beautifully. Lewis great running by Oldfield just played it in too long for him but he's gonna get it anyway. And a good ball to Lewis Thomson Agnew splendid football from Leicester City. Greyson's cross into the near post Speedy just missed it it almost sat up perfectly for him. Forest on the record a little bit here but they suddenly break themselves and that's great defending again by Whitlow. [Ron Atkinson:] But at the moment they're on fire Leicester are on fire at the moment. As I say this this fellow the last twenty minutes are the best I've seen Leicester City play for a long long time. And it's been bought upon by necessity really they've had to play their way through and they certainly should be capable of doing that. And some of the buildup play has been tremendous in this period of time. [Alan Parry:] Here was that previous attack Ron. [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah it's a good good early ball in from Greyson as well. A combination of I would think of about twelve passes but tha they switched the play from side to side... [Alan Parry:] Whitlow judging a difficult bounce well. He looks the part at centre back as well. But here's Rozario... Gemmell... Black Pearce is up in support but he goes for the long ball in and Hill met it first. And that came off Simon Greyson. Oh no it didn't the the linesman changed his mind. [Ron Atkinson:] I think it was very very important as well for Leicester to get a goal while they're having a good good spell because er there's no there's no doubt I would expect Forest to put a far more sustained pressure on the second half with the wind in their backs. I could see them able to hit their front players a lot easier. [Alan Parry:] What lovely skill that was by Thomson in a very tight situation although in the end he's given it away. [Ron Atkinson:] For me he's been the best player on the field this first half. [Alan Parry:] Yes. Rozario's lay off well read by Whitlow Agnew Ormanroyd and now Oldfield. Good work though Gemmell came back to rob him. Kingsley Black on the counter attack... Rozario slipped I think fortunate to get it back and finds Black in a good position. And Leicester worked hard to win that back.... Chettle wins back the header but it's gone straight to Whitlow Thomson takes over and why not the way he's played.... Always one to get... and usually using it well and he's got a throw-in. [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah I think the biggest single difference in the two sides at the moment, let's see what happens here first. [Alan Parry:] Turned back to Ormanroyd who couldn't control it first time and that was enough for Forest to win it back. Rozario did well then. Black seeing quite a bit of the ball on this side of the field. Pearce look for Phillips on the right Lewis got there first but it dropped to Stone. Rozario Stone again... that was a clever effort really was. [Ron Atkinson:] It was clever. I don't think the keeper was entitled to do that was he? I think Gavin Ward might have got er got a catch on that. But I was just saying, here let's have a little look at this as he pops it off now. Stone stood it in there just stood it in there but it's it's a bit innocuous really. I suppose safety first is the order of the day. [Alan Parry:] It has produced a corner though. Black will take it swinging it in... flicked on by Rozario and the goalkeeper made up for er what might have been an error a moment or two ago by coming bravely in with Pearce right in front of him and Rozario I mean on the flick. [Ron Atkinson:] I was saying the single biggest difference for me between the two sides has A been the passing but also the movement. There's been some tremendous movement from the Leicester City, if you like the front six the midfield players and the er front three. You know I've talked about Thomson's passing from midfield but you've always got to be have targets to hit you see if you're a passing player and certainly the Leicester players have given him that. [Alan Parry:] And Phillips found Collimore a willing target then but Hill came back to deny it. [Ron Atkinson:] Yes at the moment he's sort of he he's the lone ranger isn't he Collimore. Always a threat. Oh no what's he Gavin Ward has picked up a back pass. [Alan Parry:] And they've taken the free kick quickly and tried to take full advantage of the situation and the referee has said you can't do that. [LAUGHTER] [Ron Atkinson:] I think they can Alan I think they can. Be interesting that one isn't it? The goalkeeper's he's committed the cardinal error by picking up the er the back pass, oh he's given a free kick the other way. [Alan Parry:] Well that's mystified me. That's why it happened. Could you call that a deliberate back pass it almost came off Greyson's er foot by mistake. [Ron Atkinson:] Well I can't see what else he's given this decision for now. [Alan Parry:] Well that was a mystery a little bit initially. Why the second free kick was given in Leicester's favour must remain an even greater one. We need Alfred Hitchcock to sort that one out. [Ron Atkinson:] Well Gary Newbon somebody's got to unravel the mystery. [Alan Parry:] [LAUGHTER] [Ron Atkinson:] I mean for me they [LAUGHTER] for me they should be drawing one each actually now []. [Alan Parry:] What Alfred Hitchcock and Gary Newbon you mean, or the teams right fair enough. Thomson good ball out to Lewis. That's a fine ball into Speedy and a lovely little lay off to Jochim. Yes that was a very interesting talking point and er no doubt Greavesie'll have a view on that at half time.... There's Black... Gemmell Pearce bit long to Rozario good ball that, oh he almost chested it down into the path of Stone. Now don't pick this one up Gavin Moore, no he knew about that.... Good spell this for Nottingham Forest. Law's in possession looks for Colin Moore in the middle, hand ball. [Ron Atkinson:] Well that was totally unnecessary from Pete. The ball's he let the ball drop behind him but er he still had a chance to get back on this. I mean Simon Greyson is not not picking up here neither is Colin Hill and really it's come on a little bit sudden but that was totally unnecessary as well. That well we've seen some comic cuts things going in the last five minutes or so haven't we. But I must admit I've got to know what happened with that goal, or free kick in [Alan Parry:] Yes another assignment for the dreaded Newbon I think he'll have to speak to the referee about that.... Gemmell straight on to the head of Hill and Thomson dispossessed by Gemmell. Pearce whips it in dangerously and no risks taken by big Mike Whitlow. Corner. [Ron Atkinson:] Actually they've picked up the pace Forest since the goal erm don't this Leicester are playing anywhere near as well as they were at the time they scored. [Alan Parry:] Corner goes in deep Pearce getting up well and Ward got up better than anyone and good safe hands as well by the keeper. Can smile now. [Ron Atkinson:] Were we right did he give a free kick? In my book he gave a free kick for Forest. Certainly looks as if he did I mean he didn't give any other indication. [Alan Parry:] Well I can't think why a free kick would have been given for anything else. Er certainly Forest believed it was and Ward believed it was a free kick you could tell by the expression on his face. It's one to leave to half time when we've got a bit more time to er examine the incident perhaps. Here we've only got er what four minutes less than that remaining Leicester leading [tape change] remaining. Leicester leading one nil against Nottingham Forest. Fortunately no dispute about the goal.... Agnew Speedy Thomson not long for Jochim and it's a good ball. Oh well played Colin Cooper. [Ron Atkinson:] Oh that was almost a classic build up wasn't it? Little ball up to Speedy drops it off to Thomson a good through ball to a running forward Jochim. [Alan Parry:] Ormanroyd Phillips denying the room and Lewis with the cross Speedy getting up well with Pearce and it breaks to Black. Against the wind he can't get any er meat behind the clearance. Greyson Thomson back to the fullback again and he wins it back off Chettle but Cooper's there and that was a foul by Whitlow in the back of Rozario. Play on says the referee Forest in possession. A bit of a luck break there off Oldfield takes it to Collimore.... Typical Stan Collimore and now Black. Phillips on the far post well he is a great volleyer of the ball as Ron mentioned before. He's not the greatest header of the ball although he has won a corner. [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah but you see that was a good chance you know. I mean s Kingsley Black has stood it in here to the second post now if he doesn't feel he can get enough on it to go for goal he should keep it in the danger area just turn it back across the face of the goal and let one of the other lads have a go at it, Collimore or Rozario. [Alan Parry:] Corner kick. Black headed away by Oldfield. And did that cross the line it hasn't yet and Ormanroyd comes out with the ball. I think they're actually appealing for hand ball you know the Forest players. Here's Phillips for Forest still one down Black onto Hill's head. Good clearance Speedy.... Oldfield Lewis making a great break again down the left. He really is quick and he's got the chance of a cross here. Knocks it in towards Speedy and got the final ball wrong but a shame he'd done so well. [Ron Atkinson:] Great great sort of break from the kid there. Think Ed took out one club too many there didn't he? Little little sand wedge would have found er Speedy on the on the back [Alan Parry:] Yes [Ron Atkinson:] post.... [Alan Parry:] And Hill finds Speedy. He's playing well as well Speedy leading the line very well. Here's Jochim.... Cooper gets it clear. Phillips for Nottingham Forest. Only about half a minute of the first half remaining and er certainly Whitlow has hardly put a foot wrong at the back for Leicester so far. Played at left back and centre back this season Mike Whitlow.... Here's Jochim... He needs a bit of help here Cooper breathing down his neck. Did well. Agnew turned in towards Speedy Pearce gets it clear. Good defending in the nick of time but still Leicester press Greyson and again Greyson headed away by Laws to Ormanroyd. That was a chance. [Ron Atkinson:] Well that was a glorious opportunity wasn't it. Coming off the back of some more good build up play from er Leicester. Good little stand in ball there you see Laws can't quite get it up on it. No he big sticks there falling on his left foot. It maybe came down a little bit too slow for him. I think that's about er the saving grace on that one. [Alan Parry:] He's there to win it back and find Jochim nice turn by him. Taken off him though by Stone. Good work from Rozario now Black down the left-hand side for him. Five men forward here Nottingham Forest. Swung back in towards Rozario. Collimore good tackle by Hill a really effective challenge and Collimore and Hill having a real scrap as the ball comes over and the referee steps in and stern action might be required here by referee Kirby. [Ron Atkinson:] The referee's got a real problem here. It's bad enough with er Collimore and Hill wrestling on the floor but without the goalkeeper coming and getting involved. [Alan Parry:] Now he was lenient earlier on in the half the official when he might have shown a red card to Laws. Is he going to be similarly lenient again with the two players here. [Ron Atkinson:] Came on the back of a very very good move as always. And you see the two players tangling on the ground here.... I think I don't think big Stan will be very happy with what he's done there. [Alan Parry:] No he was certainly the aggressor more so that Hill.... What's it to be? Yellow yellow.... Well fair enough we criticize referees often enough for perhaps harshly sending players off I suppose we should compliment Mr Kirby for not showing the red card there. Though I'll say as I said earlier in the half there's some play some referees might have seen that as a sending off offence. What d'you think Ron? [Ron Atkinson:] Well I saw a sending off yesterday on television that er I thought was nowhere near as severe as that and I must say that he's a very luck man Stan. [Alan Parry:] So the first half ends in real drama. And a lot of talking points for Jimmy Greaves and Tony back in the studio at half time to discuss when they rejoin us after the break with the score here at Filbert Street Leicester City one Nottingham Forest nil.... [music] [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Welcome back. Well not the least interesting moment in that first half was that peculiar back pass and the free kwick kick which followed it and we'll come to that in a moment. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Mm. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] But I think Leicester as Ron was saying look a lot better side without Steve Walsh funny to say. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well what they're doing actually it's quite right because they're they tended to play the long ball to Steve Walsh so that he could head it down and what they're doing actually they've got two four foot eight forwards in Jochim and Speedy and a nine foot seven winger Ormanroyd [Tony Francis, 'ton':] [LAUGHTER] [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] but because exactly but because of that they're playing the ball through the Forest er midfield and they are looking a lot better side. This is the best I've seen them play for a long time Leicester [Tony Francis, 'ton':] They're playing Forest type football [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] They're playing very well. Very well indeed [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Although Forest should have gone ahead within a minute. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Forest should have gone ahead first first forty seconds of the game. I mean Black who is consistently doing this along with and Crosby and co. I'd if I if if I was poor old Frank Clarke I'd be tearing me heart out. That that look at that. That's that's that's a terrible terrible effort from from there. And they could have easily been one up at that particular time which was a minute. Then there's a whole different ball game isn't there after that but er [Tony Francis, 'ton':] And then Leicester got the bit between the teeth and scored what was a very goal really by your standards wasn't it? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] It was a good goal erm they they played well it was a good move it, we we saw a great run by Lewis to get this corner which was a smashing bit of football. Then Agnew who doesn't [LAUGHTER] out there at all [] heads it back in and Speedy in the ideal spot in the six yard box a nice little flick on. Er a lot of courage here by Agnew because he can see his own player's gonna go to kick the ball but he doesn't flinch out of it, knows exactly what he's gonna do. Tailor made for Speedy that isn't it. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Cos there's always defenders [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Good goal [Tony Francis, 'ton':] on the line you can't [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Yeah [Tony Francis, 'ton':] be offside. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] No no no it's a well taken goal and and that's that's what he was looking for just a little touch on. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Now let's try to clarify this peculiar moment about the back pass [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Right mm yes yes yes it was peculiar wasn't it? Well as far as we can work out what actually happened is is the referee does give a free kick for this back pass there. Now it wasn't really a back pass although it did actually come off of Greyson. Keeper picks it up now Rozario you can see is is is protesting. Now the referee's given it and what we reckon here is Rozario's taken the free kick to Gemmell but Gemmell is now offside. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Which is fair enough. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] And that's how we look at it. Now I don't know whether that is the fact that's the sort of assessment we've made. Er that as far as we know is the referee's confirmed that it was offside and actually if you look at that it was offside. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] I don't think there's much doubt about it is there? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] But justice was done really cos it wasn't really [LAUGHTER] a back pass [] in the first place. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] No. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Er it's just one of those marginal things. Quick thinking by Forest. Penalized there bit unfortunate but justice was done. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] [clears throat] Yes and Forest have got to find a better route to goal than that and we'll find out whether they can in a few moments. [music] Hello again. One nil to Leicester City good game so far. Let's just have a look at some of the statistics from that eventful first half and er an eye-catching one at the bottom there look fouls conceded twelve to Leicester four to Nottingham Forest. One that Forest got away with Jim. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Somewhat surprising that actually isn't it you wouldn't have thought there [Tony Francis, 'ton':] by Laws [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] would have been that er discrepancy. The the laws for I don't know I mean I get a bit fed up. I keep harking on it and I don't want to be labelled as the man who who constantly whinges about forwards diving. But I don't know there was no attempt really to he went down after Laws had tackled him. I'm sorry I I okay you book the player but it it appears to me that that forwards just don't want to stay on their feet or even try to stay on their feet. And if I was the referee [Tony Francis, 'ton':] And since it was such a long way from goal there was no no advantage in going down was there? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Oh there was no question of him being no not really. And there was not question of Laws being being er sent off for that. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Professional foul and [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] But if I was a referee now unless I saw the forward actually trying to stay on his feet I would view all of those fouls very suspiciously. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Right Forest are gonna have the wind behind them [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Yes [Tony Francis, 'ton':] in the second half so we can expect to see Collimore racing on to all sorts of long balls now. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well it's up to Stan to yeah to have a go he's got the pace he's the quickest man on the field probably. Apart from Lewis who looks a bit lively [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Yes. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] the Leicester full back. Erm and you would expect Stan to with his with him facing goal to have a go. But it doesn't always necessarily apply Ton. Sometimes I we always felt that you'd like to play against the wind it gives you just that [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Cos it holds the ball up. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] little bit more control. And er and with the wind sometimes the ball's al that ball's always running away from you and the way goalkeepers play now they tend to come out very quickly and more times than enough they get there [LAUGHTER] first []. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] All right we can grab a quick word with Frank Clarke the Forest Manager who's talking to Garry Newbon. [Gary Newbon:] Frank what about this argument that's going on about the free kick that was disallowed? [Frank Clark:] Well I mean I'm not interested in that really till after the game. Erm the referee said it was for offside I mean I'm not I'm not arguing about we'll we'll think about that after the game. [Gary Newbon:] Leicester were quite a handful in the first half. [Frank Clark:] Yes yeah they played quite well but I thought we got our game together after the goal and created a few chances ourselves and er if we keep that going we're get something from this. [Gary Newbon:] And finally Cooper's shoulder's obviously very bad you've had it taken [Frank Clark:] Yeah er doctor thinks it's best if he comes off. So er we've had to take him off. [Gary Newbon:] Thank you. [Alan Parry:] And as a result of that David Phillips who as I was saying in the first half has proved himself to be a very valuable all-rounder already to Forest has slotted back in at centre back again and that Garry Crosby has come on as substitute and taken up his usual position and Phillips' first half position on the right wing. So that's going to be a problem for Nottingham Forest who threatened towards the end of that first half to get back into this game one down remember. David Speedy's goal for Leicester in the first half and with the wind behind Nottingham Forest now ironically is often happens in these cases it seems to have just calmed a little. But with the wind behind Forest I I would think Leicester would be expecting a lot of pressure.... Whitlow and his colleagues have looked good under any kind of pressure that Forest have managed to exert so far.... It won't be a problem for Phillips slotting in there a very good footballer.... Rozario finding Collimore, that's a great turn by Collimore my word the shot has actually gone into the second tier of the stand behind the goal. And having done so beautifully in the buildup how did he get it so wrong with the shot? [Ron Atkinson:] I think we'll see a lot of this the second half. Rozario looking for the first flick on as you say. He's leaning well back there. There was a suggestion he might just have got you know as he went past the defender here Collimore. I mean his first touch is decent he's gone past there's a suggestion I think that he he could have gone down. There may have been free kick there. But he looks as if he was still left with a shooting chance. Could even you know have possibly have driven it another yard, taken it a yard further and killed the keeper off. I think we'll see a lot of that this half now the ball up and Rozario winning his share of flick on headers. And that fellow trying to pounce and everything. [Alan Parry:] Colin Hill injured. Still has that remarkable record of not having missed a single game since he signed for Leicester from Sheffield United. He was the only player who played in every single match last season.... Leicester fans taking every single vantage point they can around the ground. And of course they have a marvellous view of the beautiful new stand that we're sitting in. Hill fit to continue here for Leicester.... Greyson forward won back by Chettle. responsibility on Chettle now in the second half having lost his er partner defence Cooper. How unlucky for poor old Cooper finally getting back into the side and then not lasting more than forty five minutes cos of that shoulder injury.... Thomson volleys it forward to Jochim taken off him by Phillips. Gemmell Gary Crosby gets his first touch taken off him by Lewis.... Thomson invites Ormanroyd to move forward and he drives it on and as he did so presume the referee has whistled for a free kick for the challenge by Gemmell, yes he has.... Forest think they got an offside decision out of that but the whistle had er gone before that. And the impressive Neil Lewis will take the kick. Ormanroyd the target and he wins it. Chettle gets it away to Rozario. He's done well here Rozario he's done really well. Invites Black to move forward and that was good defending from Greyson.... Chettle wins it back and straight away gives possession back to Leicester. Good work by Chettle.... Lewis Agnew and he's dispossessed by Gemmell but Whitlow to Leicester's rescue. Er late challenge there by Thomson caught Stone free kick to Forest.... Taken by Phillips looks for Pearce left Oldfield wins it back for Leicester though. Well you wouldn't have fancied that as a goalkeeper would you Pearce suddenly came flying in on Ward. And a foul by Whitlow on Rozario and pain written all over Robert Rozario's face and we saw that the last time we had a Nottingham Forest live game when he collided with a post up at Bolton Wanderers and had to go off with a rib and facial injuries. Booking there for Whitlow.... Incidentally the crowd here today just over seventeen thousand. I think that makes it the best of the season at Filbert Street.... And that's the fourth caution of the game.... Still one nil to Leicester David Speedy the scorer. Ron. [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah I was just looking at erm I thought that was quite a bit of resolute defending there from er Whitlow. Erm I'm not too sure whether Rozario may not have just caught his studs in the ground and tweaked a knee something like that. I don't think the actual impact of the tackle has caused that problem.... [Alan Parry:] Well it's if there's anything wrong with Rozario they are in trouble Forest. They've already lost the centre half the last thing they want to happen is to lose a centre forward. Neil Webb is the remaining substitute as well as substitute goalkeeper Mark Crossley and Frank Clarke must be thinking how many more injuries am I gonna get this season.... Rozario limps on but he doesn't look too comfortable. Free kick taken by Phillips and wasted by him. And Rozario looks in trouble at the moment he is just er limping around he's sunk back to his er hands on his knees again and well look at that he you don't really need words to describe how he must be feeling at the moment.... Laws swings it in flicked away Gemmell gets it back and now Pearce Black outside him and it goes in long towards Collimore. Good work by Gavin Ward. [Ron Atkinson:] Most significant thing about that cross that Kingsley Black was er like you say was Rozario was twenty yards outside the penalty box and that should be his territory, big hanging c crosses like that. [Alan Parry:] I would think Frank Clarke would probably give him another minute or so to see if he can run it off. If not he'll whip er Webby on and put probably put Crosby up front.... Just put Webby on the right-hand side of midfield and put little Gary Crosby up the middle where he's played a few times for Forest. Or more than a few times actually.... So only Neil Webb left if you discount the goalkeeper and I remember the last time we did that Forest live game up at Bolton Forest had to use their both their substitutes in that game as well quite early on. Hope they don't think we're an unlucky omen for them.... And that's a foul by Greyson on Stone free kick to Nottingham Forest and Rozario has gone not gone down but he's holding his leg again inside the penalty area and er he's not a happy. I think he might have to come off soon.... And Stones free kick wasted but they can try again. Black... Rozario's just limping now he's virtually a passenger and er I would think Forest have got a difficult decision to make a moment or two. They couldn't half do with a goal now. Collimore... got round Ormanroyd and into the box and a [shouting] great effort []. My word that would have been a spectacular goal. [Ron Atkinson:] Oh the big man's desperately unlucky there isn't he? As you say he he's gets Ormanroyd just drags it past him and then he does er Agnew coming in he just him. A little a little flip above the keeper bounces off the crossbar. That would have been a super piece of front play. But it's a Rozario's got to come off now at the moment he's just er [LAUGHTER] a big sums it up there []. That's his frustrations when you're having problems but er it looks as though he's got to come off Rozario. [Alan Parry:] Yes he c he can barely walk at the moment Rozario never mind run. So you can imagine Frank Clarke thinking well we've got the wind behind us we've gotta put a lot of high balls into the box and he is very important to us but at the moment he's not making the box. I mean the big fellows here they've got to try and run it off or give it a tug and come off come off and get the er the sub on. Important period for Forest to keep pressing on if they're gonna have to make another change. Black gets it into the box Rozario got a header in but even as he headed the ball he limped away again and if he'd have been properly fit then he would have really powered that one in.... [Ron Atkinson:] But at some times your dilemma as a manager you say think well can he just stay on and nick us a goal knowing full well that if if he has he comes off it makes them fairly lightweight. [Alan Parry:] One nil to Leicester City eleven minutes gone in the second half. It's certainly been an eventful match this one way and another.... And an enjoyable match frankly there's always er something happening it's lively. Pearce finds Rozario he's still limping away whenever he er comes into play like that. Lewis finding Greyson. Jochim almost nipped in there between Chettle and Tommy Wright.... Good atmosphere here, two of the Midlands biggest clubs in the First Division.... Good header on by Ormanroyd it's gone over Speedy's head cleared by David Phillips but only to Lewis. Agnew Oldfield good ball. Ormanroyd onto Speedy again Phillips takes it off him and Forest get the throw in. And it looks now down on the bench which is er just down beneath our commentary position here as though Neil Webb is taking off his er track suit and will come on shortly. they've signalled to the referee now Rozario'ssozario's ew try and run it off or [Ron Atkinson:] Yes they push er Crosby has gone up front erm with Collimore and Stone's come out on the right-hand side. [Alan Parry:] Good break by Black but the final shot wasn't too clever. Webb's taken more of his er custom central midfield Ron. [Ron Atkinson:] I mean the one thing that Neil Webb can do, as you say he he's missed a lot of football he played against our Reserves Thursday night, but the one thing he can do if he get an opportunity he can produce a telling ball. I mean in in the midweek game against us he had very little play and then he produced one ball that got them an equalizer and I suppose that's what Frank would look for now.... [Alan Parry:] Well played Whitlow a lot of ball back to Lewis as er a bit half and half. It's come back to him again. Chance down by Stone. Leicester City's throw-in. Certainly one thing is noticeable Leicester haven't er quite dropped back into the gear they were in in the first half Ron have they? [Ron Atkinson:] No I think er the that Forest have put a bit of a press on them. I think the wind is definitely playing a part. You know it's sometimes it's hard as they get the ball so far forward. Erm I did feel that Leicester I think if they can s if they can withstand this little bit of pressure now they'll get a si a situation where they can start rolling the ball again and get their play going. But it is important from their point of view they they sort of hold this pressure at bay. [Alan Parry:] Here's Pearce Webb knocked back towards Pearce who wins the header cleared by Hill. [Ron Atkinson:] Well that was a typical Forest move of old wasn't it? Pearce a little square ball Webby plays the one two and Pearce doesn't stop his running keeps his run going. That was Forest in their pomp. [Alan Parry:] Considering the disruptions Forest have had to er undergo here they're getting back into this game impressively at the moment. But they're still a goal down.... Collimore... Stone won it back brilliantly off Lewis... but it came to nothing. Thomson... this is Hill and that's a disappointing ball straight on to Chettle's head. [Ron Atkinson:] You see the difference there was Thomson pulled for a short ball there and he was ignored. Whereas in the first half they virtually tried to play through Thomson on everything.... [Alan Parry:] Nottingham Forest have only won three of their eleven League games this season four drawn four defeats and only one away win. Two one at Luton. There's only about er what is it four teams below them in the table at the moment and a defeat today would be a serious blow for them. But Crosby almost released Stone then into a good position and you have to say Forest have certainly had the best of this second half.... Now then Oldfield's got the legs to bring Leicester clear on the break here... and that excellent play by Oldfield. Ormanroyd... he's still going and still the shot blocked Agnew has his shot blocked as well. Leicester have their best little spell of the half now. Oldfield and he wins the corner off Brian Laws.... Well that's what Leicester needed really to relieve the pressure. [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah he did exceptionally well in the early part of the move. He pick a ball up Oldfield carried it along way with pace and power and then just kept his retained the ball for his side. [Alan Parry:] In draws Ormanroyd near post and he's flicked it straight across the danger area. Gemmell just kept in by Crosby and it comes again to Gemmell. It's a poor ball though by Scott Gemmell giving possession by to Greyson and now Jochim.... Thomson Lewis he's so direct this lad you have to check though as Gemmell action stride for stride. Now Ormanroyd in towards Speedy far post to Speedy. Black brings it clear for Nottingham Forest.... Collimore's drifted out to the left.... This is Whitlow play getting congested into the middle third of the field at the moment. Ormanroyd familiar leggy run of his turns it back to Lewis, Speedy let it run on to Jochim. Superb play by Jochim and he couldn't finish it off. [Ron Atkinson:] That's some brilliant understanding between the two front players there. Lined up each other off th off the ball and then a little dummy by er Speedy. Look at this they're dead in line they know what they're doing he's dummied the ball there Jochim's rolled his his marker very very well. Got it back across the other fella really couldn't quite get enough power on the shot. But great link up play from front players that. [Alan Parry:] Offside Collimore. And incidentally going back to that shot by Jochim in the end the referee gave a free kick against him for er presumably fouling the defender which seemed a harsh decision. [Ron Atkinson:] Well that's very harsh [LAUGHTER] particularly in view of the stick the forwards have to take []. I think he rolled the defender superbly there.... [Alan Parry:] Ormanroyd towers above everyone knocks it down to Thomson Pearce whips it away. Stone... Whitlow to Lewis and now Agnew.... Twenty five minute remaining at Filbert Street. Leicester who may move into third position, depends on that Milwall er Middlesbrough game but could move high in the table if they win here today are still leading one nil.... Thomson... Greyson and on it goes to Agnew Speedy in the middle Ormanroyd arriving but a cross never came. [Ron Atkinson:] Yeah but the signs are encouraging again for Leicester aren't they? The the spell that er Forest had straight after the interval looks to have been weathered. I mean that's not to say they're not still a threat but at the moment er Leicester are starting to boss the game again and that's the important to them. [Alan Parry:] Neil Webb a little lay-off to Gemmell and on it goes to Black and further still to Crosby. Collimore in the middle... don't forget to take the ball and finally whips it in towards Collimore and Lewis heads it back in that direction and Ormanroyd with an awkward clearance. Thomson gets it away and Forest exert pressure again. Pearce intelligent ball for Phillips back in it goes to Collimore and a header down drops to Crosby Thomson arrives to dispossess him and knocks it first time for Jochim. Good work by Chettle. Over the roof of the stand and into the street outside. They can't score from there.... So a new ball... Lewis... This his third chance Stone has found him in the end. Has a very calm nature and er explosive turn of pace and all round looks very promising this nineteen year old who's made only about half a dozen appearances in the first team. Played in three of the last four games in fact.... Thomson's free kick... Pearce gets it clear... and then won back by Hill but has only gone back to the Forest skipper. Whitlow's been very very good at the heart of Leicester's defence today and that was an important header he won then.... And again shout of hand ball and that's how the referee read it. Gemmell the culprit.... [Ron Atkinson:] been a lot of crucial areas this afternoon Alan but I for me I think by and large Leicester have always had the edge in midfield. Erm if you like th the four including Ormanroyd have always been have always been more dominant that the Forest er midfield quarter.... [Alan Parry:] Still plenty of time for this game to go either way though. One nil Leicester twenty four minutes completed in the second half.... And Leicester understandably though not legally taking their time there.... It's good play from Whitlow... and fine ball for Lewis... Thomson now Ormanroyd, Laws blocks the er ball and that's a throw in to Leicester. [Ron Atkinson:] Yes they've done that very intelligent Leicester. When they're under pressure they've always changed it normally change the play normally out with his left-hand side. But this young boy's got a lot of space. Hasn't done particularly well with that one possession. But he's had a lot of space and he's by and large used it very very well.... [Alan Parry:] Game just having one of those little quiet periods but I'm sure it's only seconds away from igniting again here.... Phillips what a wonderful ball that almost turned out be there because er Crosby had it not been a better defender would have been in behind Whitlow. Here's Thomson Ormanroyd Phillips again to Laws. Good brave header by Lewis and he was caught by Stone. Free kick to Leicester City. [Ron Atkinson:] As you say sho showed great courage there the kid didn't he? Thought the referee was a bit hasty pulling player back cos Leicester had got good possession.... [Alan Parry:] Lewis takes the free kick himself it wasn't a good one dropped in short and was headed away by Gemmell to Black who releases it first time trying to set Collimore free. Two defenders and he's still got the ball and almost got a corner out of it. A little disagreement between him and Simon Greyson, words spoken no problem. Pearce cleared by Lewis good ball by Phillips, Scott Gemmell. Easy one for Ormanroyd but he's headed it straight to Forest Black, Pearce continues his run into the box and a headed came in from Crosby.... [Ron Atkinson:] Well I think Gary Crosby if he looks at that'll think he possibly should have scored then. I mean that's some good build up play nice little touch out there a good curling ball in from Black and that's a decent chance. Not an easy one by any stretch of the imagination but it's one if you're looking desperately for an equalizer you'd be hoping to score from.... [Alan Parry:] Nice little touch on by Speedy Pearce wins it back and there's Speedy again trying to release Jochim. Phillips across and made a very important little touch to get it er out of play.... Awkward one there Thomson and Whitlow, not Whitlow er Greyson I should say. Now Hill... Ward lashes at it but he er made a good contact.... Ormanroyd under pressure from Stone, Moores comes in and free kick has gone Leicester's way and er poor old Frank Clarke has found a mountain of problems at Nottingham Forest as he took over in the summer. A lot of them off the field which have got nothing of course to do with him. Things that have happened long before he got involved with the club and then all the problems on the field with performances results and injuries. I think most people in the game will feel a great deal of sympathy for Frank who's one of er the games gentlemen certainly. Webb trying to release Collimore now, Whitlow who er has had a wonderful game for by money wins it back. No offside given there surprisingly as Black turns it in and Whitlow's there to win it again. But now the shot by Gemmell and the rest of the players of and the bench are curious they thought they should have had an off should have had an offside in that er buildup.... Lewis er Jochim rather Laws wins it back now Webb Crosby making a good run and he releases it but it was well read by Greyson. Now Oldfield for Leicester. He's brilliant when he gets going like this. Ormanroyd and he's got round Laws and pulls it back into the danger area but the cross defended well. Webby Collimore good ball. Still one nil to Leicester fifteen minutes to go. Black in possession for Forest now Pearce Gemmell Webb shot block by Jochim. This is Stone and he's got round Lewis and done well here Stone and the goalkeeper makes a good interception in the near post. [Ron Atkinson:] Well to be fair that's that's a little bit of bright er attacking there from Stone. I don't think Lewis er thought Stone was capable of doing this you know and he's got into a great situation there. Really it's hard there was there wasn't too much space for him to squeeze the ball back but he's got to be looking to put the ball back from there. [Alan Parry:] Oldfield find Agnew. He's gone well here Agnew tried to curl a shot in it was blocked back to Ormanroyd now Lewis. Poor cross and a very good clearance Laws finding Collimore. Oh it was a bit ambitious. [Ron Atkinson:] I think the defenders have done well there you know. They forced him across the pitch they forced him onto his right-hand side Collimore which isn't his best side and they've managed t they've managed to frustrate him at his shooting at a distance. I think Stan if he'd looked at that situation again would probably have wanted to go at the first defender an and gone and gone up the left side. [Alan Parry:] And you still get the impression this game is far from won yet by Leicester.... Free kick has been given for a foul on Oldfield. Frank Clarke is on his feet in exasperation at that decision.... Thomson knocks it in quickly headed away by Phillips. Now Webb for Forest. Good ball good tackle again by Whitlow and how often have I said that today and it's not long for Collimore. Chance here for Forest perhaps Collimore pulls it back but then couldn't either get a shot or a pass it effectively. [Ron Atkinson:] Once again I don't really think Stan Collimore had the had reason to pull that back you know. I mean he saw he sh great pace was shown then it was a nothingy ball that he made into a good situation. I really think he should have been going to try on a left footed shot from there. [Alan Parry:] Jochim to Speedy on to Ormanroyd Thomson and again Greyson gets it back from Oldfield. This is neat football by Leicester, Agnew and they've gotta throw it.... Er twelve minutes to go a little over. Leicester City one Nottingham Forest nil. Thomson for Leicester Lewis who's lost out there. Webb takes over three against three at the moment though Leicester getting men back quickly. Collimore... he's turned and found some room for himself. Knocks it in and er once again I have to say Whitlow did well. [Ron Atkinson:] Yes I think that's the sort of thing when you're a defender the goalkeeper s the goalkeeper's almost on it but if you're not sure you get rid of the thing and then say turn round to the keeper sorry pall but I'm playing safe. Because that fellow Stone wasn't far short of the the ball from Collimore. [tape change] [Alan Parry:] I notice Leicester have got er Gary Mills ready on the touch line seemingly about to come on, though not yet. Here's Hill. Central defenders have done a good job today for Leicester of course I've put the curse on him saying that he knocks it straight out of play but er Gary Mills who's missed half a dozen games through injury is going to come on now and he's going to take the place of Neil Lewis.... He's done really well Lewis one or two exciting moments. Maybe they felt his concentration had just waned a little bit late on but he's er he's had a good game he should be very pleased with his contribution. [Ron Atkinson:] It's a smashing game. In fact [LAUGHTER] I didn't think he'd done anything wrong [] you know. He didn't look to be under any pressure at all. I know the extra experience of er Gary Mills. The only thing about Mills he's not natural left sided player. Whether that will upset the balance at all because Lewis was a very important for them he kept stepping in when they wanted to change play. [Alan Parry:] Yes certainly Mills has er operated most of his life down the right-hand side. Either right back or right midfield for Leicester.... Well he's not exactly er too disappointed and he shouldn't be either the way he's played. Here's Thomson... and Mills gets his first touch, wasn't bad one cos Agnew ran into that space well. Gemmell's clearance Whitlow down to Ormanroyd, Collimore did well to win it back and Ormanroyd just got a foot in again. Time running out here for Forest we've got about nine minutes to play. They're one behind, Collimore has the ball. He looks so good when he's going forward like this lays it off for Crosby and clearance is lacked away by Simon Greyson. And the wind gets up again and the er chill factor I think is what they call it is considerable.... Maybe I need a vest now never mind some of the players. into Collimore quickly once again by Whitlow he came bravely to meet that.... Phillips too deep but Hills hasn't got an easy ride here and in fact he's given away a corner it's good pressure.... Stewart Pearce the captain's come forward for the kick taken by Black. Goes in high towards Collimore who turns to the referee and claims that he was pushed as the corner came over. [Ron Atkinson:] I really don't think he's got much of a claim there. You expect a little bit of jostling don't you when there's a crowd seen in the penalty box. [Alan Parry:] Pearce Crosby and still... disappointing end to a promising move. [Ron Atkinson:] It's not a disappointing end to the game though is it Alan? I think you know it's hard you g got to go with Leicester at the moment because they're in the pole position and I have for my money been the better side but er Forest do look capable of snatching an equalizer. [Alan Parry:] They only have seven minutes in which to do so.... Ormanroyd that's a great header to win. Oldfield hammering it on Moores beats Speedy to it and Chettle gets it forward first time. Well played Mills... and well played Phillips at the other end. But Thomson wins the throw in.... Well if there are many days like this at Filbert Street I think a few er underground heaters in the new stand would be suitable.... Knocked forward by Gemmell to Collimore six minutes to go. Forest still a goal behind Stan Collimore in possession.... heads it towards Stone but he couldn't control that. Agnew gets it clear to Ormanroyd.... And Phillips has done well. What a good professional he is he's er slotted straight into this centre back roll as though he's been there all his life. Oldfield off he goes again on another march forward Thomson... no free kick given Pearce in possession he clashes with Agnew and Oldfield brings the ball down. [Ron Atkinson:] [LAUGHTER] I think the Leicester have got a point there. [] I think Scott Gemmell virtually picked the ball up. [Alan Parry:] Leicester are forced another throw in then. Five minutes to go Leicester City one Nottingham Forest nil. And Leicester to get the win that will keep them right up amongst the leading clubs. Can Forest snatch a draw? [Ron Atkinson:] Or better? [Alan Parry:] Again Moores wins it again Whitlow defends superbly. Thomson then knocking it long and Speedy couldn't get there ahead of Chettle. [Ron Atkinson:] Spot on about Whitlow he hasn't missed much at all has he? Stuck at his task very very resiliently. [Alan Parry:] Here's Pearce... Crosby and now Collimore taken off him by Agnew. That was a good tackle but he's given it straight to Pearce. In it goes towards Webb, bit of a flying swan act by Webb inside the penalty area but Forest keep the er period of pressure going here. In a desperate hurry to get the ball and the er ball boy's not in a [LAUGHTER] desperate hurry to give it them back []. Phillips knocking it into Collimore. Collimore's done well, [shouting] Webb []. That might have been the moment Forest drew level. [Ron Atkinson:] I must confess the moment er Stan Collimore set it up for Webb, I mean it's a nice ball he does brilliant here Colin, checks the and shapes a nice little ball into Webby's path and the one thing Webby's still got he's he's got good feet. I fancied Webby to score there I must confess. [Alan Parry:] Here's Thomson... Speedy wants it played into the area and get it. Couldn't quite control it. Webb again good ball out to Pearce Black outside him... Oldfield makes sure he doesn't have too much room. Now Chettle... Pearce... Collimore good running by Collimore and a scramble on the edge of the penalty area. Finally it comes to Stone Ormanroyd did superbly well there.... Stone and Ormanroyd again and he prevents it a corner. It's a throw in.... Jimmy Greaves man of the match? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] man of the match David Oldfield Al I think he's had a good game Agnew's played well, Lewis. Been one or two good players today but er over ninety minutes this man very impressive. [Alan Parry:] Fair enough I must say I'd have given it to Whitlow myself but it doesn't really matter as far a Leicester fans are concerned as long as they can hold on here for another two minutes now.... Not a very good free kick by Mills. It's hand ball by Stone surely. Thought he placed his hand on the ball anyway he's got away with it and Phillips at the other end is under pressure from Speedy and that's a corner off Chettle.... That might be enough for Leicester might just give them the time. Breath in concentrate again keep the ball in the Forest half and edge a few seconds closer to victory.... Thomson floats it in straight into the hands of Tommy Wright who hits it first time quite sensibly but a bit too strongly straight back to his opposite number. Minute to go.... Mills in possession for Leicester.... Hill and Whitlow taking a few chances in their own half and finally Whitlow's dispossessed and it comes to Collimore. And still Collimore and then Hill has to concede the corner. And Leicester were their own worst enemies then because Hill and er Whitlow just got in a mess. The corner's been quickly taken and knocked in long but cleared again by Leicester. And Black goes down theatrically on the edge of the box and nothing has been given and Gemmell took a chance then he er overplayed his protest to the referee.... Wall comes in again Ormanroyd gets it clear and then it's blast away by Greyson as we move into stoppage time. Mills gets it clear Chettle chasing hard concedes the throw. [Ron Atkinson:] I actually I'd like to see that again. I actually think Black was fouled but as you say he makes a bit of a song and dance about it. No but [LAUGHTER] [] I don't know I've seen them given. [Alan Parry:] Yeah delayed reaction and I'll tell you Gemmell was lucky then because he er he made contact with the referee in making his protest and they normally stamp down on that one but Mr Kirby has been er a lenient official today. Tremendous noise now around Filbert Street as Leicester's seventeen thousand crowd here believe they're on their way to a very important victory over Nottingham Forest. We've had almost a minute of stoppage time and Leicester lead by that single David Speedy goal from what seems a long time ago now in the first half. Still not over. Collimore's given it away to Oldfield though. Speedy with a lay off and Thomson does well and gets it back to Speedy, Jochim in the middle Agnew arriving he'll keep it er near the corner flag I think. Yes.... Black comes to take it off him. They're running out of time here but he finds Collimore with an excellent ball. Leicester have got so many men back in their own half he'll do well to make anything of this Collimore. And he has done well but then runs into trouble in the considerable shape of Ormanroyd who knocks it long. Mills making the run Chettle gets there first. We've had not almost two minutes of stoppage time. Still one nil Leicester. Stone for Forest Webb keeps it in play and turns it back to Phillips and then Hill with a lovely little header back to make sure Leicester keep possession. Calm it down says Gavin Ward. Quite right.... Speedy could his goal now prove to be the winner? Certainly looking that way by Forest are not giving up until that final whistle.... Oldfield did well to ride that challenge from Pearce. And that's the final whistle it's all over and Leicester City have gained a very very hard won victory here over Nottingham Forest by one goal to nil. David Speedy's goal enough to get all three points for Leicester and I think on the balance of play they just about edged it but Forest put up a marvellous performance in the second half especially when they had to make er changes and things didn't go well for them. Forest are not happy with the referee at all about certain things there. But let's hear the views of Leicester's Brian Little. [John Helm:] Brian obviously a very important win for you but there were some close shaves for you in the second half. [Brian Little:] Yes a tough game. I mean you know Colin Moore's such a handful really I mean we're always worried every time he got the ball. I think the problems we have defence in the last couple of weeks I'm just pleased to have kept a clean sheet against them I think. You know young Neil Lewis coming in for a game like this is tremendous performance and Michael Whitlow and Colin Hill have been up against it but they've worked hard and I think it's been a great game and er one nil probably doesn't er justify both sides. I think that two two might just have been fair but whatever, as I said before the game, if we win we'll be delighted however it happens. [John Helm:] Well you got the win, well done. [Brian Little:] Thank you. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Well more misery for Forest another defeat more injuries less to go from strength to strength and we'll be right back. [music] Hello again. Well we've heard Brian Little's point of view. He thought two two would have been a fairer reflection of the play. Let's hear from Frank Clarke now with Gary Newbon. [Gary Newbon:] Frank it's just not going for you. You must consider yourself very unlucky with that result. [Frank Clark:] Yes I thought we were er at the end of the game. Erm unfortunately we didn't really start to play until Leicester scored but from then on I thought we dictated the game. And er we played at a high tempo and we passed it and really dominated the rest of the game but our finishing could have been better. We didn't make enough of the opportunity that we had er in the attacking third. You know and if you don't score a goal then you don't win games. [Gary Newbon:] How frustrating is it getting for you? You seem to be going through everything this season it seems to be a nightmare for you at times. [Frank Clark:] Er I'm frustrated obviously but you know we all all managers go through this at some stage. Er either sooner or later we've just got to keep going as I say. Erm if they can keep putting that kind of performance on and showing that sort of commitment then we'd be all right. [Gary Newbon:] Has all the nonsense off the field distracted you at all, made your h job harder? [Frank Clark:] No not at all. That's er had no affect on on me doing the job in any way. [Gary Newbon:] And how difficult is it all these Midland local Midland matches because the Midlands teams are finding it hard to get near the top. [Frank Clark:] Oh that's difficult for us all. Er you know we have a lot of Derby games. But I mean that's the sort of thing we've just got to [LAUGHTER] deal with you know we can't do anything about that. We can't say [] er we can't ask to be in a different Division to Notts County and Derby and Leicester. We're in the Division there with them and we've we've got to try and win enough of them to get ourselves into a charging position. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Well they couldn't score in the Premier League last season which is why they came down, they still can't score. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] We it's simple. I mean what what Frank said there is true but they've g not got any finishers apart from Stan Collimore. You wouldn't back any well you made the score against any of them and I'm sat in the studio here. But they apart from Stan don't look like scoring and er this here is an example of of really superb play. And a player who was desperately unlucky on the day not to get the equalizer because he's taken two players on he knows what he's doing there he deliberately did that and was very unfortunately. Er but you get the feeling that if he doesn't score then as I said nobody else can. We know Gary Ball's out I don't know how long for but I think Frank will seriously have to look to give this lad some support because he he's doing great up there on his own there's no doubt about that. That's real good skill that. That's that's a wonderful piece of football and and it deserved a goal. But unfortunately it wasn't it wasn't to be. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] He also he also did create chances for other players around him but I don't mind what you [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well this is why [Tony Francis, 'ton':] say if if you leave one player up front on his own he can't prosper indefinitely. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well this is what I'm saying Ton you and I have been saying it during the game that that the other players can't score goals it's as simple as that. If Collimore don't score it doesn't really look as though anybody else is going to. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Okay but we have plenty more goals around the First Division yesterday and you'll be able to see those in a couple of moments. [music] Right too many of our teams are in the lower reaches of the First Division. Only Leicester and Derby in challenging positions. Here's the full story now beginning at the Baseball Ground. [music] [Ron Atkinson:] You could have been excused for believing that Maradonna had made a come back. Tommy Johnson needed the hand of God to evade Nigel Martin in goal. He looked sheepish as Herts scored Martin was anything but as the goal stood. That apart Derby are unstoppable at home and it must be some consolation to Arthur Cox that the twelve million pound team he assembled at last looks the part. There's never been much doubt about Kitson.... Crystal Palace are terrifying on paper at least although the heavier grounds may already be finding them out. Not that Armstrong appeared to be unduly troubled. He did well to hook in his tenth of the season.... As we've often said Derby can look shaky with the two goal lead. Once it evaporated and Darren Wassle was eventually dismissed for a crime which bore no resemblance to the magnitude of the sentence, well Palace must have fancied their chances.... If they did Pembridge exploded that cosy little notion. They're the only hundred percenters at home in the Division. [music] We detected a buzz about Wolves last week which had a lot to do with the rediscovered youth of Cyril Regis. What is he on? Regis outrunning Overson to give Kelly his chance. So Jack Hayward's tribute to Graham Turner and the club programme looked fully justified but began to wear thin. Paul Cook's lovely ball to Andy Thomson, a penalty by the midfielder who can only command a weekly contract, did his and Turner's cause no good at all. Within a minute the same Paul Cook was discharging another defence splitting ball, unfortunately it was his own defence and Mike could only beat out Martin Carruthers' shot into the path of Mark Steen as we know. That can seriously damage your health. [music] County's home form is one of the best in the country so Portsmouth were grateful for this deflection which disturbed Steve Cherry's equilibrium. Only two minutes left when Richard Walker popped up on the proverbial back stick, sounds painful doesn't it, and it was for Portsmouth. [music] Lyndon Hooper another Canadian from the same backwater as was playing his first full game for Birmingham. But oh dear what a gift. Kirk wasn't about to look a gift horse not with Peterborough so desperate for points.... Even when Dave MacDonald was sent off for a second bookable offence the blues were incapable of taking the advantage.... MacDonald thought Ted McMain had made a quarter pounder of it. Ted didn't agree.... [music] Desperation in the air at Oxford. We know they can play this game but the defence is shocking. It's not everyone who contrive to lose at home to Luton.... [music] Sunderland's home record is excellent and Albion came as close as anyone to frustrating them. Not close enough though and they're now in the bottom three.... [music] In the non-Midlands games there was a breathtaking finish at Vicarage Road where Bruce Rioch's team were three goals up at one stage. Two of them came in the first half as Bolton tore Watford to shreds. McAteer with the first and the second was entirely down to Lee who exploited the goalkeeper's crumbling self-confidence.... Why Bolton weren't playing in white is an interesting trivia question. Don't have the answer I'm afraid and neither did poor old Shepherd when they came plundering again early in the second half.... season before Halloween, what's it coming to. It all changed dramatically with twenty minutes to go. The moral don't wait for the ref's whistle. He played the advantage and Porter began the only hat-trick of his career in his benefit season with Watford. Bolton were never the same after that. Normally a very difficult side to beat but not yesterday. Porter says he likes having a pop at goal but yesterday they all went in.... The equalizer was cutting things a bit fine. Only eight minutes to go when Ken, ex Peterborough of course, was awarded the freedom of the Wanderer's half. And we were down to sixty seconds when the referee did Watford another favour spotting an elbow in the face and sticking to his guns.... Porter has played over three hundred games for his club but there is no sweeter moment that this.... [music] Here comes one of the most exciting games in the Division which is remarkable considering they nearly dropped out of sight last season and sold Stan Collimore this. Brit Angel's opener was a prelude to the Ricky Otto show. He can't offer him a challenge like that. And I get the impression he almost meant it.... Well he certainly meant this, a lethal finisher but fortunately for Southend nobody seems to have caught on yet. They will. And just for your information there was another penalty to end on. Do you want to see it? Oh here it is then. Nothing much to add except that Redfern scored but it didn't really matter.... [music] A fine win at Grimsby for the chart topers from south London. The goal itself was nothing to write home about, had a slow motion feel to it but Charlton are the most consistent side in the Endsleigh League. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] And that's why they're top. Well we complete our look at the weekend's First Division action with brief highlights of this afternoon's Milwall versus Middlesbrough game. Middlesbrough starting the day in the top three. The commentators John Helm and Theo Foley. [John Helm:] instinctively out to Barber, three men up around the edge of the area. Floats it in towards Kennedy the chance must be here for [shouting] Ray it's there and it's Kennedy []. Alex Ray into the middle but I'm sure Kennedy got the final touch. Er it's gonna be a great moment. Let's just have a look at this one again. Milwall have the lead that's the important thing here it came over at the far side of the penalty area, had got up for it Ray and the Kennedy there was also a Middlesbrough foot in there.... Milwall just caught sleeping for a moment can get a good ball in for here and Hendry [shouting] it's an own goal []. Could well go down as a second own goal of the match. It was John Hendry who got the shot in on goal but the ball flew into Milwall's net off Phil Barber. No doubt about that one. [Theo Foley:] No come off the throw in as you rightly said John. Very simple throw in and er I thought Milwall just weren't geared up on that one at all. [John Helm:] And er I fancy Middlesbrough will be the happier of the two with a point if that's the way it does turn out. [shouting] He's onside here this might be the moment for Kennedy he's bundled out of it by White. White's in real trouble now, surely this is er a sending off offence. [] Kennedy was through White balked him without question a yard outside the area and Derek White who was booked only moments ago I'm sure could be on his way to the dressing room early. He is. He takes off [Theo Foley:] John [John Helm:] the arm band l and Derek White is sent off. [Theo Foley:] Definite foul no hesitation whatsoever. [John Helm:] Well it would be a dramatic finish here at Milwall if they could snatch it now. The chip is just a fraction too high. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] that sending off the referee obviously wasn't Mr Assan Maca. Anyway that's the top of Division One. Middlesbrough stay third Leicester move up to fourth, good news for them games in hand. But the bottom doesn't look so rosy does it Jim? Look West Brom [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] No it don't does it? [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Peterborough Oxford at the bottom. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] There's only [LAUGHTER] Barnsley. Not not of our ilk []. Never mind never mind. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Yes frightening no we'll have to put that right. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Plenty of time to go. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Right there was a mixed er bag of results for English clubs in the European competitions this week as I'm sure you noticed. Among the more satisfied will be Aston Villa whose one one draw with currently Spain's hottest club er certainly sets them up nicely for a place in the third round of the UEFA Cup. And the game in has surely marked the emergence of a new Villa star. Phil Mepham reports. [speaker001:] This was a save that could well have shaped the whole of Villa's season. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Roberto [shouting] what a save. A fabulous stop from Bosnich []. He's struck it well enough Roberto and then his European debut a terrific stop. And that's going to lift Bosnich and Villa no end. [speaker001:] The performance of Mark Bosnich in Spain on Tuesday was the highlight of a supreme team display. But Bosnich has been hailed now as an overnight success. It's overnight success though that has taken years of dedication to achieve. [Gary Newbon:] I've made some well some very big sacrifices especially early on in my career when nobody would have known that I was probably even in the country. And this is nice to know that there is sometimes if you put your head down and work hard at something there is something at the end of the rainbow. [speaker001:] What sort of sacrifices did you have to make when you were quotes an unknown then? [Gary Newbon:] Erm well just the obvious ones. First of all leaving such a beautiful country and leaving all my family coming over here to a foreign environment to a different world. The football world is a completely different world even it's different to what people would be used to you know here. And er coming through all the problems with the work permit and er again things that weren't in my hands. And er you know the cold there was a lot of things. There was a whole lot of things. There were so many times I felt like just packing it in and going home. [speaker001:] Bosnich's rise to prominence was one of those cruel twists of fate on which careers can be accelerated or halted. A month ago Nigel Spink was Villa's first choice but at Birmingham at the Coca Cola Cup Spink was injured and Bosnich took over amidst some prophetic words. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well Spinks did well to win the place from the young Australian this season with Bosnich having been the man in possession of the goalkeeper's gloves most of last season. So he'll be anxious to make the most of this unexpected opportunity. [speaker001:] He did just six minutes later. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] It's been saved by the stand-in goalkeeper. Bosnich the hero. [Ron Atkinson:] The one thing we're always reluctant to talk about is young goalkeepers. I mean I normally in the past I've always gone for experienced keepers because you know I mean they they don't come to their prime until, I don't think goalkeepers over twenty six twenty seven onwards. Er but he is an exceptional young keeper and er I mean his nerve and his experience and his maturity sometimes is unreal. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] I think he impressed the Inter Milan coach as well when they played didn't he? [Ron Atkinson:] No A C he played [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Oh A C [Ron Atkinson:] A C Milan and Cappello the er Milan manager has gone on record as saying he's as good as anything he's ever seen. [speaker001:] In many ways Bosnich has become the recent victim of his own success. He's to play for Australia next week in a World Cup Qualifier. He was desperate to play but reluctant to leave Villa. It was a decision which tormented him but was faced purely and simply because Mark Bosnich is now regarded as one of the best around. [Gary Newbon:] I'll still come back say two or three afternoons here and practice things that I'm weak on just and er tho tho those sacrifices where I stop until I erm sort of fuel all the ambitions I've got in the game. [speaker001:] Do you feel at this point in time that it's all been worth it? [Gary Newbon:] At er well this week you sort of look back and say yeah but erm in about ten years time if you come and ask me the same question I would be able be in a better position to give you an answer. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] I bet he watches Home and Away. How good is he? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well he's he's obviously a very good keeper. We we saw him come on against Birmingham about a month or so ago and save that penalty and it's ironic that that's how Nigel Spinks started at at Villa wasn't it when he came on for Jimmy Rimmer and if Bosnich does the same job as what Nigel's done over the past ten years then no one 's going to argue. But he he does look a very good goalkeeper. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Well let's let's have a look at him again. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Yeah. Erm [Tony Francis, 'ton':] And try and work out what it is about [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Well again ironically a penalty save that obviously always makes a goalkeepers name it was a super save. This actually was the game against Birmingham and here he comes out fearlessly spreads himself beautifully and robs of a goal there. Er he's he's this type of goalkeeper. You would obviously say yes he's got a big future and that save in Corinia was a was a lifesaver for Villa. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Could be the passport. Well if Mark Bosnich was the man of the moment in midweek the name on everyone's lips during the week during sorry during the last twenty four hours has been Bobby Gould. Gould resigned as Coventry City's Manager within minutes of their five one thrashing at Queens Park Rangers yesterday. He asked his Chairman for a private chat they retired to the gents and Gould who had no contract said he was finished. This afternoon Gould insisted that he wouldn't be changing his mind. Now he is a bit of an off the wall manager isn't he Jimmy. I wonder if he really is serious and what's behind it? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] It's odd because I was watching him on Football Focus yesterday, him and Bob Wilson, and I was trying to stay awake [Tony Francis, 'ton':] You don't watch that do you? [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] and and I actually succeeded. And he looked in quite good form did Bob and he didn't look as though he had too many worries and then this happens and you wonder just whether it wasn't premeditated rather than in haste. And I would tend to think personally that he won't be back. So we'll see. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] Well maybe he's er got a contract to appear on the media. We'll have to see. [Jimmy Greaves, 'greavesey':] Possibly with you Ton. [Tony Francis, 'ton':] [LAUGHTER] Who knows? [] Anyway there's more football coming your way on Central in midweek. On Tuesday at eleven forty exclusive highlights from the Third Round of the Coca Cola Cup featuring Aston Villa at Sunderland. And then on Wednesday at ten forty five more Coca Cola Cup action this time with Derby against Spurs and Manchester United against Leicester. They top the bill. And then again next Sunday at two fifty the Central Match Live moves onto St Andrews for Birmingham City against Milwall. I hope it's as good a game as today's was. Well done to David Speedy well done to Leicester City. See you next week bye bye. [recording ends]

[Jonathan Cowap:] A very good morning to you. Jonathan Cowap with the final hour of Tuesday morning's breakfast programme your opportunity to have your say on just about everything as long as it's legal and decent and honest and in your own opinion you can call me now on York six four one six four one. Things we think you might be interested or I think you might be interested in talking about this morning. Erm Gascoigne Woods this er this great big erm dump of of coal waste that's gonna be er left in the Selby area a mile long consisting of millions of tons of of spoil from the tip. Local people very angry about it, how do you feel on the subject? O nine O four six four one six four one. We're gonna to be speaking to one or two er expert voices or er deeply interested parties in a moment or twos time. Your contribution is more than welcome York six four one six four one. Quick call that's all it will take and then er we ring you back and bear the burden of the telephone bill. Erm life imprisonment should no longer be the automatic penalty for murder, that's according to the committee chaired by the former er Lord er er former Lord Chief Justice Lord Lane. It says it's wrong that a judge should have to pass the same sentence on an abused wife who kills a brutal husband as it does on a robber armed with a shotgun who kills in cold blood. The committee recommends that life should remain the maximum sentence but the judges should be given the freedom to impose, Whatever penalty they see fit. Can you agree with that? That life imprisonment should no longer be the automatic penalty for murder and that judges should be free to impose whatever penalty they seem fit. Your thoughts on that one would be interesting. Erm the Sun claims this morning that the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr George Carey believes that the Prince of Wales should not be allowed to become the King of England because of his friendship with Camilla Parker Bowles. Do you this that's fair? Six four one six four one is the number to call and erm the whole business about er these people Lloyds of London, you know the er the investors the names at Lloyds who stake everything they have in order to rake in enormous profits. Well they had a particularly bad time many of them lost absolutely everything and now they're protesting cos the Lloyds people are only coming up with a nine hundred million pound rescue package that might give them some of them back half of what they invested. Can you work up any sympathy for them? O nine O four six four one six four one and perhaps on a lighter note according to speculation in the Yorkshire Post newspaper this morning Gazzer could be heading towards Alan Rhodes. The paper says Paul Gascoigne could be coming to Leeds United after his career in Italian football where he plays of course for Lazio the Rome based club. Erm I stress it is just speculation but what do you think? Is Gazzer just what Leeds United needs or even wants? York six four one six four one is the number to call. Could we bear to see him weeping across the border there in West Yorkshire? It's ten minutes past nine and joining us on the line this morning is er Judy in York good morning Judy. [Judy:] Good morning Jonathan. [Jonathan Cowap:] We were talking on the subject of erm divorce in in yesterday morning's programme and this idea that erm the the whole procedure of getting a divorce som er would be speeded up and there'd be something called, No faults divorce, so that people wouldn't have to point accusatory fingers at one another. What was your erm wha what was your opinion of of these new suggestions? [Judy:] Right well erm I I believe er that we should make every effort to preserve marriages erm and thinking especially of the suffering that's involved fm for children. I really feel very much for the children. And I'd I do think it's possible erm with help for people both sides have a partnership to to change you know if we take an honest look at ourselves. They'd start er you know one man gen mentioned er that when we get married in church erm we are making sacred vows you know we start with God but then we get busy with our living and our jobs and having our families and then somehow we forget about God [LAUGHTER] and [] we we try to go on without him. But er I I do belie I've we we go to a a church in in York and er I believe in the saying, The family that prays together stays together, and a christian foundation for marriage i gives stability in your relationship. I mean we have to work very hard in our own er relationship we've had our ups and downs we've gone through many difficult times like unemployment and even homelessness and [LAUGHTER] you know we we've gone through it but when you make your promises you say you'll stay together for richer for poorer in sickness and in health and so on. But sometimes they're taking lightly and we have found the help and encouragement that our christian friends and our our vicar have given to us in our difficult times have he helped keep us together. I'm sure the word divorce has come into my mind er several times at the crisis points but by God's strength you keep going and you grow. [Jonathan Cowap:] But f f f for many people Judy I mean th people will look to you with some degree of er of admiration and maybe some degree of of envy that you do have that strong faith that's that's helped you through those times. But for many people isn't it the case that the the church wedding is an an and the promises made the vows made before God and er before the the congregation, for many people they're just a sort of rather erm oh dear how can I put it rather a flimsy frippery erm that they just feel it's essential to have so that they can have the nice pictures and and look back on on a church wedding. Doesn't it make a nonsense of the whole thing? [Judy:] Well I agree I I mean it it is a bit hypocritical really just to want all all the the show and everything you know if you're not really sincere in those promises you're making. I mean the the money that some people spend on on a wedding i I mean it it's just one day and then you got yo it's your life afterwards that really counts. Erm I think money is another issue a actually very strong issue that causes er people to think of divorce because of disagreement of h how to to use money people go into debt. We're coming up to [LAUGHTER] Christmas of course and that was touched on yesterday how much people spend at Christmas. Erm there's tremendous pressures I think for for a mother particularly erm at the early stage in the marriage when she has young children at home. I found that quite a hard time erm and especially if you don't have any family near. M my parents live quite a long way away and erm y you've got to to you need the support of others. A friend and I in in our church we've started erm a mother and toddler service and that seemed to really help a lot of the young mums they really look forward and they said could we have it more often. You know we had it once a month and they really wanted this kind of support and help and er for the ch children to have a christian foundation. I'm sure if people will perhaps they look at the church and think oh it's out of touch but it isn't there are churches that are alive and have something very relevant to say today. [Jonathan Cowap:] As a as a churchgoer and a committed christian I mean I I quoted earlier on this morning from the Sun newspaper this morning which is ranting and raving this morning on the subject of erm well it claims that the the Archbishop of Canterbury er Dr Carey is saying that erm Charles could never be king of this country erm because erm he had an affair with Camilla Parker Bowles [Judy:] Mhm. [Jonathan Cowap:] wha what's what would your opinion be as as a church-comer would you be as we don't know whether the Archbishop really said it cos it's printed in the Sun for heaven's sake. [Judy:] Mm I bet it's been twisted I've had [LAUGHTER] experience of things I've said being in the paper and not coming out as I've said them []. [Jonathan Cowap:] But wha what's y what's your opinis opinion I mean you're talking about erm the er marriage from er er er spiritual standpoint from a christian standpoint and here we have the man who erm if he became king would be head of the Church of England assuming it hasn't become disestablished by then. [Judy:] Mm. [Jonathan Cowap:] Erm how would you feel about him being being the kind and defender of the faith? [Judy:] Well not very happy really. Erm you know I mean i i wi the Queen I think has given a wonderful example and her family life and I feel very sorry for the way her her children have you know the stresses of modern life ha have caused all these things and I feel for Charles an and Diana deeply. Erm I think it's really very sad that i it's just the society we live in has put these kind of pressures on marriages and you know we're all human and we can all be tempted to look at other people and be unfaithful but in those times of er you know temptation you just I well I I've found that that's where my faith comes in you're sort of helped through those times. Erm I'm not really ans answering the question but I I didn't really want [LAUGHTER] to get on to that one it's just [] [Jonathan Cowap:] All right. [Judy:] Could I just erm mention one thing if [Jonathan Cowap:] Yep [Judy:] if there are people who are going through a crisis just now there is a wonderful organization called Care, Care for the family. They have many caring initiatives and erm they've been to York and they've erm had marriage seminars er and they do an hel help with parenting er I just wonder if I could give the address of this so if anyone is interested [Jonathan Cowap:] Well [Judy:] they could get in touch [Jonathan Cowap:] I'll tell you I'll tell you what w we you give the the the address to someone o off air because people won't have pen and paper now and then if any [Judy:] Right and then anyone can phone in [Jonathan Cowap:] then anyone who wants it can call us. Thanks Judy. [Judy:] Okay. [Jonathan Cowap:] Bye bye now have a good day bye bye. [Judy:] Bye bye thank you. [Jonathan Cowap:] Bye bye. Erm here's a here's something from the Sun this morning just on the subject of who's going to be king. Erm bookies yesterday slashed odds on Prince William becoming the next king because of an exclusive Sun story, I don't think. Erm, We revealed the Queen wants the crown to skip a generation. William Hill, the other William, immediately cut their price on Wills being crowned by January the first in the year two thousand from twenty five to one to ten to one. Not such good odds. Do you think the crown ought to skip a generation like that? O nine of four six four one six four one if you'd like to comment on something in the news at the moment something on er Judy's just said or er on this business of of life imprisonment, No longer to be the automatic penalty for murder judges to be given the freedom to impose whatever penalty they see fit. Would you trust the judiciary of this country with that sort of er level of responsibility? People are already querying from time to time the de decision judges make. I can't begin to imagine the sort of furore that might break out if er judges started to hand out the sort of penalties that they saw fit in particular cases. And er you might have heard what er the Department of Education, John Patten the Education Secretary, was saying yesterday about erm sex education. I've got all the er the official details in in front of me here. In a statement Mr Patten set out the place of sex education in society and the vital importance of teaching the teaching of moral values. He called for concerted action by governors head teachers and teachers to erm make sure that er young people appreciate the importance of having a set of values recognize the values held by others from whom they can learn. This whole business of sex education and teaching morality in schools, do you think it is the school's responsibility or do you think mum and dad ought to play more of a part? York six four one six four one is the number to call. Erm moving on and talking about the subject of the Gascoigne Wood pits or the er proposed tip at the Gascoigne Wood pits in just a couple of moments time. [speaker003:] Hello to tell you what's on today's Afternoon Show. Flashback F M rewinds to December nineteen eighty three, from three meet former radio four Today presenter John Timpson with another of his wacky books which takes him all over the country looking at the unusual including some of the things you never knew existed in North Yorkshire. Gumboots and Pearls is the story of army officers' wives continues and after four anything could happen when the goody and the baddy meet head on. David Leonard and Martin Barris are in panto once again at York Theatre Royal they pop in straight from rehearsals. And our class of the week today come from King James School in Knaresborough. Tuesday's Afternoon Show with between two and five I hope you'll join me. [Jonathan Cowap:] It's nineteen minutes past nine. If it goes ahead it'll cover nearly three hundred and fifty acres and consist of thirty million tons of coal. British Coal's plans to build a huge coal tip at Gascoigne Wood could get approval later today. An official from the Inspectorate of Pollution had expressed worries that the scheme would cause more pollution but today those criticisms have been withdrawn. Well local people protesting in the area say they'll fight the scheme and they plan to lobby the meeting of county planners at ten thirty in Northallerton this morning which has been called to discuss the scheme. Well joining me on the line is the Minerals Planning Consultant from the protester's group that's er Peter and in our Northallerton studio is John who's the County Planning Officer. First er but I've been tol I'm sorry I'm I haven't realized Scott was joining us on the line. Good morning and he's with us as well. Good morning Mr. [Mr Mcmillan Scott:] Good morning. [Jonathan Cowap:] Erm well I don't really know what to ask you because I was prepared to erm [Mr Mcmillan Scott:] Well shall I tell you what you were going to ask? [Jonathan Cowap:] Yeah go on you tell what you were going to ask me. [Mr Mcmillan Scott:] No the position is that er given that this is a fourth stage er planning process. You've got the District Council the County Council then the national Government may intervene by calling in the application. But there is a fall-back position and that is that the European Community have a directive called the Environmental Impact Assessment Directive that requires that before a major project of this type is put through there must be the fullest public consultation. In my view,a although there's a current debate about this there has not been the fullest public consultation and I would er myself be minded to invoke the er E C directive on this er in order to try and er to make sure that the the public feel they are fully aware of what the proposals are. [Jonathan Cowap:] So you wouldn't be necessarily satisfied then with discussion purely at a local level and a decision here? [Mr Mcmillan Scott:] No I th the the public inquiry that should take place in my view would would of course be conducted locally would involve all local interest and would have the benefit of independent views by experts on the environmental impact of this er proposal. So what I'm really asking for is full democracy and not the rather closed democracy that we've been used to in this country er for too long. [Jonathan Cowap:] Mr that you very much indeed for joining us on the programme this morning. Took me by awares er by er by surprise. Let me go to er where I expected to go now to John the County Planning Officer. What do you think to erm what erm you've just heard the North Yorkshire Euro MP Edward have to say there about his erm keenness to see a public inquiry? [John Reynoldson:] Well the County Council is quite clear on this. We are an experienced Planning Authority. County councillors have been dealing with British Coal in relation to Gascoigne Wood and Selby complex for twenty years. In that limited area where we lacked expertise we have employed outside consultants to advise the council. I believe that we have wi will be fulfilling all our statutory and moral responsibilities in the way that we have dealt with the application. We've dealt with it fully in compliance with the law including an environmental statement. Mr refers to European law and environmental statements that was passed into British legislation we have fully complied with that. An environmental statement was required from the company it has been given full publicity I believe that the Planning Committee and County Planning Committee today have sufficient information to come to a decision an informed decision. [Jonathan Cowap:] Well le let's just hear what er Peter has to say about that. He's the Mineral Planning Consultant from the protester's protest group. Good morning Mr. [Peter:] Good morning. [Jonathan Cowap:] What would your comment be? [Peter:] My comment is that I don't accept what John is saying. I cannot for the life of me see why the County Council as the Statutory Authority and supposedly an independent er er body to British Coal is so resistant to a full public inquiry when only the clear er proposals of British Coal will come out. I cannot for the life of me see why they're so resistant to it. [Jonathan Cowap:] Mr. [John Reynoldson:] We're resistant to it not for any dogmatic reason but we don't feel that local democracy is necessarily improved by the County Council d d ducking it's decision. We are the responsible Authority if members, and it's their decision this morning, believe that they have all the relevant information then they will stand up and be counted. [Jonathan Cowap:] But the local people are clearly very concerned about it. The the the er the joint villages action committee wants a public discussion to take place in a in a public forum with the set rules of a public inquiry. Why shouldn't they have that? I mean this coal tip is isn't going to be based on what I said a moment or two ago with it's thirty million tons of coal covering nearly three hundred and fifty acres a bit of a monster. [John Reynoldson:] Well you say that but I mean there are plenty of other coal disposal facilities in the country. What eventually is proposed would be very similar to Hambleton and Bath in terms of its impact in the local environment. There are few people, I'm very concerned for those people and we will be imposing conditions if members wish to approve it to protect the interests of the few people in close proximity, many of the objectors er they must be heard and their point of view is report in the committee papers but they do live at er a couple of miles from the site. Er I would say that the impact of the development if it goes ahead must be limited at that distance. I don't believe there will be problems at that distance of noise of dust and the visual impact of this hill must be limited at that distance. [Jonathan Cowap:] Is it horrible? [Mr Mcmillan Scott:] Yes can I come back on one or two points there. W w the County Council have a duty to er consider this application so it's not a question of them ducking their responsibilities they're not capable of in law of ducking their responsibilities. But what they have done is something quite unprecedented in my view and that is to actually write to the Secretary of State and say to him do not exercise your rights to call this matter in to consider beside or above th the County Planning Authority. And that is in the teeth of the partition of three thousand four hundred signatures from local people and urgent requests from those communities that the County Council allow the Secretary of State full discretion in this matter to call the matter in. There has been a positive attempt at denial of local democracy. [Jonathan Cowap:] Why have you why have you done that Mr? [John Reynoldson:] Well we've not done that at all. What we have said and we will be referring my recommendation to the Planning Committee today is if they're minded to approve it and subject to a legal agreement and subject to conditions, we will refer it as a departure to the Secretary of State. What we have said what members have already resolved is that they do not believe that it is necessary for him to intervene. This is not a unique case the Planning Committee at its last meeting made a similar recommendation on a different mineral site. I don't believe that the Secretary of State has need to call it in and indeed Mr Curry has written to the local Member of Parliament saying his mind is still open but on the information he had in October he does not think that these that this application raises issues of more than local importance. That is the definition as to why an application should be called in. Does it raise issues of more than local importance. The view of the County Council is that it does not raise those issues. [Jonathan Cowap:] I'll let Peter come back to you in just a moment erm and there are more question I would ask you as well but erm now we must take a short break with time at nine twenty six. [music jingle] We'll get the latest on North Yorkshire's roads from A A Roadwatch. [Jason Cullen:] And starting firstly in York city centre. Things starting to ease off following a busy rush hour this morning. It's still a bit busy coming in down there on Tadcaster Road and the usual busy traffic for this time of the day on the junction of Bootham and Gillygate. But elsewhere things certainly easing off now. Also an early drizzly start to the day to the north of the county that seems to be easing off as well. A bit misty but again starting to lift. On the A sixty four east of York the outside lane closures are still in place this morning between Grimsdon and Hopgrove. Also the Hopgrove roundabout itself is being resurfaced right through the day which again is adding to the usual delays for this time of a Tuesday. In York work continues at the junction of Askham Lane and Ridgeway and finally on the A one six eight between Dishforth and Thirsk there's a contraflow on the Tockwith bypass. Jason Cullen A A Roadwatch. [Jonathan Cowap:] Two rail delays to tell you about. The nine thirty six London Kings Cross service that one is delayed at the moment as is the nine forty two Bournemouth service out of platform five. Apart from that everything else running to time through until the ten o'clock London Kings Cross service out of platform three. [music jingle] Peter you wanted to come back. [Peter:] Yes indeed I do. [clears throat] Mr claims that this is merely of local importance and at the end of the day twenty years from now or twenty five years from now whenever this the application is imp is implemented and and completed that it would be no more than a replica of er natural features within the Vale of York. Those two points are absolutely nonsense. It is not merely of local importance it is going to be a huge alien feature for twenty years of working and in perpetuity thereafter within a natural rural area and a natural landscape. It is going to be nine and a half times the footprint of Hambleton three and a half times the footprint of Brayton Bath it will tower in its mass beside them and it is totally unreasonable and wrong for anybody to describe it as merely of local concern. [Jonathan Cowap:] John. [John Reynoldson:] Well the I have to disagree with Mr on this. The height of the mound will be lower than Brayton Bath it will be lower than Hambleton. I'm not minimizing the impact on the environment during working we are still negotiating the details of restoration with British Coal in the event that members er accept the recommendation in principle today. We are seeking to ensure that the er first area to be built up gives protection to the village of Hambleton and can be restored very quickly. But nevertheless it is an application which is necessary, British Coal at the end of the day would have been delighted not to make it after all. This is going to be a very er difficult and expensive application for them but we have a successful coal industry the jobs associated with it we've got to balance economic interests and environmental interests and I believe we can do so. [Jonathan Cowap:] A reminder to you if you're listening to the programme this morning and er you are concerned about the creation of this tip at the Gascoigne Wood mine in Selby that you can call us and put your question to York six four one six four one is the number to call. Can I ask you Mr we we reported on this programme yesterday morning that an official from the Inspectorate of Pollution had expressed worries that the scheme could cause more pollution. But today we learn that those criticisms have been withdrawn. Why? Why's he changed his mind? [John Reynoldson:] There was an overlap in terms of certain areas of responsibility between Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution letter which was one of objection and the National Rivers Authority. We said to both of them, look you are quasi-government organizations who are sponsored by government departments there can only be one technical view. You're not expressing opinions you're expressing technical er situation. [Jonathan Cowap:] wasn't really a technical situation I thought I was told yesterday that the erm letter from the Inspe the Pollution Inspectorate was a matter of opinion. It wasn't a a technical statement at all it was it was an opinion from an inspector. [John Reynoldson:] He said that there was a risk of pollution. Now that is a technical issue. I asked both bodies to get together if they needed further information from British Coal they should secure it. That's what H M I P did they got further information from British Coal they met er on Friday er with their colleagues at the National Rivers Authority and it's from that greater understanding of the application that H M I P have now said that they are prepared to withdraw their objection subject to the imposition of the conditions at the N R A request. [Jonathan Cowap:] Peter what [Peter:] to do that. [Jonathan Cowap:] Peter why do you think the erm the Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution have changed their mind? [Peter:] Because they've been pressured into an opinion on one particular aspect of their letter. But don't forget that their letter really addressed three fundamental issues. It addressed air quality they criticize the threat to air quality in their letter and that hasn't been addressed by the N R A it's beyond the N R A's permit to to do that. And then we have the third issue which is site selection and here they are at one with the local communities when they say this particular er selected site has been driven by economic consideration and not environmental consideration. And that is against the advice of Government in its circular advice to the coal industry and indeed to the County Council. So they might well have had convenient discussions with the N R A as late as Friday even though their letter preem the Inspectorate's letter was written on the eighth of September and Friday of course was the day after this letter had been released to us on our request and was was two days after the Selby committee had met on Wednesday. Howev it's all too convenient and it's all too easy we have a perfect example of of of bureaucratic shuffling. Shuffle it between enough parties for long enough and and the issues will get lost. [Jonathan Cowap:] John [John Reynoldson:] No. [Jonathan Cowap:] bureaucratic shuffling? [John Reynoldson:] Certainly not I mean the other issues as as Mr quite rightly says are air quality and the letter from the Inspectorate now says I understand that the measures taken by British Coal, and they've moved on since September, the measures taken by British Coal are now to the satisfaction of the regulatory authority which for air quality is the District Council. And on site selection, well that is not why I consult er H M I P I want their technical views. Site selection has been dealt with and is a ss straight forward planning issue. [Peter:] No it isn't. I think it's a it's a question that they are perfectly right under the environmental protection legislation where the H M I P are given wider powers. I think it is a perfectly legitimate area of comment for them. But can I answer specifically John's point John 's point on the matter of agreement between H M I P now and the Selby District Council on the matter of air quality. The latest report from the Environmental Health Department of Selby District Council which was made available to the Selby District Council Planning Committee last Wednesday clearly criticizes the issue of air quality based on the British Coal proposals as they stand. They say that there are going to be dust clouds issuing from this site comparable to the dust clouds that used to issue from the P F A lagoons at Brotherton. And that's almost a straight quotation from that report. So if the H M I P are now at one with Selby then they must still stand by their view that there is a considerable risk to air quality as outlined in point one of their letter of the eighth of September. Now it is for these reasons all of these different views and these conflicting opinions coming from authoritative sources and the concern the locals have that this issue has been ramrodded through on a political ticket is is is the very reason why it should go to an inspector appointed by the Secretary of State at least some semblance of independence and that issues brought out in in full public consideration. [Jonathan Cowap:] John John well let John let John answer that. [John Reynoldson:] It's not been ramrodded through on a political basis. My report to the Planning Committee is a sound professional technical planning report and I believe that on the information that I've been supplied with I can recommend to the Planning Committee to approve the application. [Jonathan Cowap:] You've got three thousand people locally who've their signatures to a petition who don't want this thing on their doorstep because they're worried that they've tha that there're going to be things wrong with it's going to affect the quality of the lives of people in Selby. That's what all boils down to doesn't it at the end of the day and you haven't succeeded as far as I can see in convincing people, those three thousand signatories, that erm it's not going to affect their lives and the quality of their lives and their their environment adversely. [John Reynoldson:] No but I think it is interesting that some of the Parish Councils for instance who initially were opposed to the application and very strongly, as they have been supplied with further and better information have modified their position and are now saying subject to rigorous planning controls they are no longer opposed outright to the application. Things have moved on application details have been supplied and will continue to be. I mean we will be working with British Coal to work it out further in fine detail. We're go entering proposing to enter into legal agreements as well as planning conditions if it is to go ahead. [Jonathan Cowap:] Let's hear from some erm local people on the subject of er of the proposed er tip site at Gascoigne Wood near Selby. Reminders that you can call in as well on six four one six four one on the York exchange if you've a point you'd like to make. Terry Terry we've been keeping him waiting on the line a long time good morning Terry. [Terry:] Good morning. [Jonathan Cowap:] Erm you I understand live erm quite near to the proposed development. [Terry:] Yes it's within six hundred and fifty meters. [Jonathan Cowap:] And what's your wha what's your feelings? [Terry:] Well obviously we're against the proposals er because of the noise element and obviously the dust. As it's been noted in the previous conversation there is er a possibility of obviously dust from the i it's spoil by the way not coal. [Jonathan Cowap:] Yes sorry that was my my mistake. [Terry:] Coal can be moved spoil is there for ever. We've got this on our doorstep for twenty thirty forty years and longer. Er because of the problems the stock piles of coal at various pits, I think there is about forty five million tons stocked at various pits, they'll still be using coal from Bywater and so that there's no necessity to to mine coal in such er vast amount. Obviously the affect of the change in the pit review procedure has changed a lot. This was muted well before the the pit review body decided to sort of close pits down. [Jonathan Cowap:] But a a away from the the the politics and the necessity to to mine coal yeah or nay, your personal worry is that you live close to the proposed site and it's going to somehow adversely affect the quality of your and your family's life. [Terry:] Yes. [Jonathan Cowap:] Okay let's put that to John what er what reassurances can you to er to Terry living six hundred and fifty meters away from this planned development? He he doesn't believe the reassurances he's heard so far. [John Reynoldson:] Well I believe that we I am confident in fact that we can impose conditions and more importantly place conditions that will minimize the dust. We're proposing codes of practice to operate it. It's not coming completely new to us this type of operation. We have experience at Common and at Barlow with disposal of power station ash. slightly different material but substantially the same n nature same scale of development, I believe that we have a track record that shows that we were are tough and will continue to be tough I [Jonathan Cowap:] Terry do those reassurances that the County Council Planners are going to be tough do they erm lay some of the er the fears that you have? [Terry:] In a word no. [Jonathan Cowap:] Why not? [Terry:] We've had assurances before we we've had no dialogue with the County Council. We wouldn't have had no dialogue with British Coal or very little dialogue. I have a quick phone call I think it was June or July just stating what they wanted to do and i in my opinion it was passed then and it is political. [Jonathan Cowap:] Terry thank you very much indeed. Peter if you're still with us. [Peter:] Yes indeed. [Jonathan Cowap:] Wh erm Terry's feelings there do they you've obviously been speaking to to large numbers of protestors do they marry with the other opinions that you hear? [Peter:] Oh absolutely so. I er er first of all can I correct you? There are not three thousand four hundred signatures say this thing should be refused. That might well be the result at the end of the day when all issues are properly balanced. What the three thousand four hundred are saying is that the County Council and British Coal do not know where they're going with this thing, the full implications of it have either not been properly assessed or indeed not been released to the to the local communities. They feel that as it's their heritage they should have a say in the matter and a proper consideration and therefore there are thousands of signatures saying please can we have a public inquiry. That is what they're saying and I think that that can only be seen as eminently reasonable and I think that that Edward has hit the nail right on the head when he says look if this issue is not properly considered locally there can be no alternative if Government fails in its duty to call it in in the in the interests of of the local communities and the region at large, then it will have to go to Brussels. And I would welcome that initiative right now. [Jonathan Cowap:] John can you really press ahead with this recommendation in the light of the fact that there is clearly such mass local feeling about it such distrust on on a grand scale of the reassurances that you and fellow planners have made? [John Reynoldson:] Well I'm disappointed that there is this lack of reassurance. I mean we have handled it professionally and con and con [Jonathan Cowap:] I don't I don't I don't I don't think I don't think anybody is denying that but it's clearly not worked. [John Reynoldson:] Well er it it will be for elected members of course to decide but I mean County Councillors are elected by local people to represent local people but also take decisions on behalf of the community. I don't think that anyone would expect them to shirk that if if we haven't [Jonathan Cowap:] No but again it does but but but when the but when the local community rises up like this and and expresses such a a heart felt opinion on something elected representatives or not surely they ought to to listen when a specific issue like this is is obviously causing such concern? [John Reynoldson:] Yes well they are listening. I mean the committee report er and appendices that are going to members today run to thirty plus sides. At the end of the day in any event the County Planning Committee if they accept my recommendation will be sending it off to the Department of the Environment. If the Department of the Environment think that there are issues of more than local importance they will call it in but their preliminary view expressed to the local MP Mr is that they don't believe that's the case. That I stress is a preliminary view they could not and would not wish to make a final decision until they have all the information. But I think that we can persuade them that it is something that Parliament has said a planning application that deals with local issues can be determined locally. [Jonathan Cowap:] Peter. [Peter:] Can I there are there are several issues in what John has said. He says there's been proper consultation with the local communities and the local authorities including the parish councils. I'd I'd I would refute that. For example there has been a recent change in the proposals of British Coal in the manner of transportation of this material onto the tip and the manner in which it is tipped and handled. The very core of the issue in environmental terms. Those details have not been sent out to the parish councils for further consultation and I refer there John to circular fifteen of ninety two Publicity for Planning Applications where at paragraph twenty five there is clear Government advice that where the changes are p are where the proposed changes are significant, and these are undeniably significant, there should be reconciliation. There has been none. the local communities have been ignored in these issues and these discussions that are going on between British Coal and the County Council. John then goes on to say well of course we're going to refer this to the Secretary of State. Well of course he is because he is obliged to do it. He's obliged to do it because it is a departure a very significant departure from his own development plan the plan that he piloted through to to tell people exactly what the policies of North Yorkshire County Council were to be. And now he's running against that plan and under the law, section fifty four over ninety one that er of the ninety act, he is now obliged to refer it to the Secretary of State. But what have the County Council done? They've already written to the Secretary of State and said dear Secretary of State we're going to send this to you because it is a departure but please Secretary of State do not call it in do not exercise your powers. And that is in the teeth of the stated wish of these communities. I cannot for the life of me see this is a reasonable attitude on the part of the County Council. [Jonathan Cowap:] Stew [Peter:] It is not responsive to the local communities and it is totally lacking in democracy. [Jonathan Cowap:] Stewart joins us on the line now good morning Mr. [Stewart:] Good morning. [Jonathan Cowap:] You live in South Milford I understand one of the [Stewart:] I do. [Jonathan Cowap:] the villages concerned. The point you'd like to make. [Stewart:] Well er the first one is that er er the Mr says that it those people with two mile away from this er tip er will not be affected. Now most of this tip is in the parish of South Milford er so I take it he means he doesn't count those people. And the majority of those have objected are in the area of that two miles. [Jonathan Cowap:] We'll let his answer that. [John Reynoldson:] No I'm not ignoring them but what I'm saying is that problems that people are genuinely concerned about of dust or noise are unlikely to have an impact at a distance of two miles. Very unlikely if it is properly controlled in terms of deposition of materials on site then certainly at two miles I don't believe there will be a problem. [Stewart:] Er ha I can imagine what you would say if it was in two miles of your property as to whether these dusts would affect you or not. But apart from that er this area is a flat plane. There's practically nothing between the residence of South Milford and the horizon with the exception of this hundred foot mound that will exist. And I do erm support Peter that in my view the er District Council and yourselves have not listened and I don't believe the County Council are going to listen to the objections of the local community. [Jonathan Cowap:] John what can you do in the face of of such distrust? [John Reynoldson:] Well I'm I'm very disappointed about that I mean we're listening to the local community we're reporting the local communities views but at the end of day South Milford Parish Council have in fact moderated their views. They, it's always argued that the parish councils are closest to local people, they had an out and out objection from the Parish Council initially they have subsequently written to me twice in November moderating that position and saying subject to safeguards they they no longer have an outright objection. [Jonathan Cowap:] Well Stewart's on the Parish Council aren't you Stewart? [Stewart:] Yes I am. Er yes well that is so this did come through er very very late indeed er in the and the Parish Council of course are in the situation where they have to cover all eventualities and what er Mr is referring to is a suggestion of using a one O six agreement to protect as far as possible the local communities when the tip is erected. It didn't change the the actual view of the people in the village. It was the Parish Council themselves who had to consider things very quickly and go for what they could best endeavour but you c er I can't see how that can be used to nullify the general view of the public of South Milford and the other parishes. [John Reynoldson:] Well I mean I quote from the nineteenth of November letter from the Parish Council, The Parish Council fully support the environmental recommendations from the District Council. Now we all know what the District Council view is. The District Council view is quite clearly support the application but be tough on the details. To me that means that the Parish Council have moved qu a long way from their outright objection lodged in the summer. [Peter:] point there because [clears throat] the the environmental er considerations of the District Council are of course those of the Environmental Health Officer and those that is the report which raises considerable er concern about the dust blow problem and the moisture content of the material to be delivered into this tip. And that is where the Parish Council were coming from. If I can just endorse what Stewart was saying the Parish Council talked to me as their consultant for a while and said look it seems that that with the with the actions of the er County Council writing to the Secretary of State to preempt the call-in procedures and the attitude of the District Council that this thing might well get local planning permission. Can we in the alternative put our case if that is a fait accompli then there must be something for the local communities to be derived from this and therefore we went for protection under one O six agreement as Stewart quite rightly refers to and we also went for [clears throat] the dedication of large areas of the resultant heap for landscaping and for public open space. But that was purely in the alternative to a public inquiry in the first instance with the possibility of alternative means of disposal coming forward and being accepted. And and I don't think the Parish Council's case has been prejudiced in that instance. It is a perfectly reasonable attitude to adopt in the light of all of the circumstances. [Jonathan Cowap:] John. [John Reynoldson:] Well er as I say the position of the Parish Council the fact that there have been so many objections are fully reported in the committee papers today. Members will take them into account when they come to a decision. But at the end of the day er my view is that on balance there is a case for this application to go forward. [Jonathan Cowap:] Peter one final question probably to you. Where can you take your campaign if today's meeting at County Hall in about forty minutes which I know you've got to dash off and and get ready for, erm where can you take your campaign, the joint villages action committee's campaign, if erm the meeting today gives the tip at Gascoigne Woods approval? [Peter:] Well we've heard what Edward has had to say and the local communities I'm certain draw great comfort from that and we wait and see whether Brussels will exercise its powers, quite legitimately in my view, and and call this in. Er in the alternative of course er the local communities have available er the High Court action which I've referred to during several discussions with yourselves over the last week or two. Erm those are the issues which will have to be very carefully balanced. I would hope however that the committee members at North Yorkshire will see that the local feeling is so deep that the project itself cannot be harmed by a public inquiry and they will make er they will take the decisions which will put this application in that direction and send that message very clearly to the Secretary of State. [Jonathan Cowap:] John and so far so far as you're concerned the local people are not going to get that public inquiry are they? [John Reynoldson:] Well no that's a mem that's a member decision. [Jonathan Cowap:] Why? [John Reynoldson:] Er but I refute that the County Council is unsympathetic to local concerns. We have got to balance environmental issues and economic issues, We've got a coal field that is a successful coal field it has a severe problem. We're trying to work to resolve that problem with minimal impact in the environment and that's what my recommendations are leading to that's what if it is approved my officers will be ensuring happens if it last twenty years. [Jonathan Cowap:] How do you feel about the possible threat of intervention from from Europe or even a High Court action? [John Reynoldson:] Well I don't believe that they would succeed because I think that we have taken account of all the views expressed and that members will be making an informed decision today. Certainly to the best of my knowledge we have fully complied with all the legislation. [Jonathan Cowap:] Can you give us any idea of the the time scale of when we might learn that decision? [John Reynoldson:] Well it will be sent off to the Secretary of State in theory he has twenty one days in practice I suspect it will be mid-January at least before we learn. [Jonathan Cowap:] We shall await it with interest. John thank you very much indeed for answering er everybody's questions this morning. Nice to talk to you bye bye. [John Reynoldson:] Thank you good bye. [Jonathan Cowap:] That's John the County Planning Officer for North Yorkshire and before that the Minerals Plan er Planning Consultant from the Protesters Group Peter. One final comment comes from er Frank from er South Milford. Good morning Mr. [speaker008:] Good morning. [Jonathan Cowap:] The point you'd like to make. [speaker008:] Er following on er what er Stewart said as a member of the Parish Council I think the feeling er was given by John that the Parish Council were now against this scheme. I would just like to quote from a circular that was sent round to every resident in South Milford by the Parish Council. And it says, Message to local residents from the Parish Council. The County Planning Committee meet on the seventh of December to cons to consider British Coal application for colliery waste at Gascoigne Wood. South Milford Parish Council whilst being totally opposed to the scheme decided in the best interests of their residents to make the following observations to County, and that is where they've built in the safeguards but they are totally opposed to the scheme. [Jonathan Cowap:] What will your action be from a local point of view. Erm I've I've I've asked erm your expert who's who's representing the the village the village's interests Peter. Whereabouts will you take erm your action personally at a local [speaker008:] Well obvious [Jonathan Cowap:] local level? [speaker008:] Obviously we will be guided by our consultants but this er er view of is er er meeting with er er great success in the villages because obviously er we feel that if there is a public inquiry then we stand a better chance of British Coal sticking to the promises made when they had the original planning application and removing all waste by train to suitable sites and there's one at Welbeck which is waiting for the material. And [Jonathan Cowap:] Thank [speaker008:] and that's what we want to happen. [Jonathan Cowap:] Frank thank you very much indeed for joining us on the programme this morning. [speaker008:] Thank you good morning. [Jonathan Cowap:] Thank you t, good morning to you sir. Formal just how it should be on the B B C thank you very much indeed to everybody erm joining in that debate. And I'm not sure that personally I'm put my hands up and say that I'd understand all the issues but I understand some of the basic principles and I'm beginning to understand er some of the complexities of a a planning issue like this. I hope you enjoyed that discussion I mean well first of all if you live in the Selby area it's been of relevance to you and you've managed to hear what both sides are saying but I I hope even if you don't live in the Selby area it's er you've er found it as fascinating as I have to hear the pros and cons of such a complex issue. Erm a reminder to you that the lines will open at a quarter to nine on erm York six four one six four one tomorrow morning if er you have points you'd like to make. We've still got er er a couple of calls I think to come before the end of er this morning's programme on the subject of erm, I don't know whether it's life imprisonment or er on er on divorce. We'll find out in a moment or twos time. There's a moment before the traffic and travel news now for me to remind you that erm if you're the chairman or the secretary or whatever it happens to be of a particular group whether it be erm the local amateur dramatics society or er a North Yorkshire charity and you'd like the opportunity to have some prime time publicity for what you're doing, particularly in the run-up to the Christmas period [recording ends]

[speaker001:] We people who must vote for the Party if we are ever to win power again. So, adopt this report, give the thumbs down to those who want to break the links and support a wider form of democracy where the trade union is paying the levy is not only a valuable member of the Party but is valued as well. We've heard the voice of the Party professionals, we've heard the voice of the Labour leadership, now let's all speak on behalf of the ordinary trade unionists and say with all the force that is necessary on behalf of those millions, men and women, young and old, we support the Party, we pay for the Party, we have a right to democracy in the Party because never forget it is our Party too, I move. [clapping] Hear, hear. [clapping] [Prue:] Prue, Southwestern region speaking on behalf of the C E C. President, Congress, I am very pleased to second this C E C statement on how we can strengthen and modernize the links between the Labour Party and trade unions. Some people in the Labour Party seem to believe that Labour will be better off without the unions. They don't seem to feel that the democratic organizations of working people are relevant to the new model Labour Party. The truth is that union members are the backbone of the Labour Party. We provide the Party with its broad base, we keep it on its feet and when necessary we keep those feet firmly on the ground. Labour needs members more than ever to help form policies relevant to ordinary people and to get those policies across. Most Labour supporters in unions played an active part in the last general election and county elections. We put up posters, we persuaded work colleagues to vote Labour and we made financial contributions. Instead of closing the door o to its union supporters, Labour should be opening up new ways in. It's not good enough to say that union members can only participate if they become full members of the Party. I'm a Labour Party member and I would urge as many people as possible to join in, but I also recognize that many people feel membership demands the time and commitment that they haven't got. They fear endless meetings and worry that they don't know enough to join in. These barriers are especially strong for women and younger people. But the same union members who don't want full membership are particularly keen on other forms of involvement, like voting for Labour's leaders and helping to select Parliamentary candidates. We should listen to how people actually want to make a contribution and base our structures on their views, instead of rather male structures which demand substantial commitment. The proposals in this statement do just that. They will ensure that we all continue to have a say in Labour's decisions and I urge you to support them. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed, Prue. Composite twenty nine, Labour Party trade union and links, Midland Region to move, London Region to second. [Les:] President, Congress. Les, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite twenty nine. One member, one vote sounds very democratic, doesn't it? Why is it that some general secretaries of certain unions are pushing us down the path of severing our links? Maybe it is because they don't want to fulfil their financial commitments. Well, if that's the reason they should at least be honest about it. At a recent meeting with members of the Shadow Cabinet and trade union leaders, one high profile Shadow Cabinet member argued for, one member, one vote. When asked how he would fund the Labour Party he said, oh, we would still expect you to pay. It seems to me that the trade unions are welcomed with open arms whenever money is needed and yet some don't want us to participate. Comrades, instead of severing our links, we should be strengthening them. Remember why the Labour Party was formed. Don't let us do the Tory's work for them by tearing ourselves apart. I'll tell you what comrades, I'm sick to death of some people in the party shying away from association with us. They seem to be ashamed of their roots. Don't they realize we're a part of the same movement? Let me tell you, I don't want anyone making excuses for me, I'm proud to be a trade unionist and I'm proud to be a Socialist. You know comrades, it's time we stopped pretending to be something we're not. This is what we believe in and we are proud of it and maybe, just maybe, we would start winning elections instead of losing them. We are going through a crucial period. What this Tory government intends to do is see total destruction of the trade union movements. We have to make sure in this trade union and labour movement that because there will be struggles ahead, this has to be one that is foremost in our minds. This conference has to give a message to Jo John Smith to maintain union links, to strengthen them, not destroy them. Our party is about morolity morality, morality and justice and truth and it's about representing our class, That's what we have got to get back to to win the next election. Congress, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dave:] Morning, Dave, London Region, second in the composite twenty nine. They say a week in politics is a long time and I now know what they mean. I came to Congress with my contribution to this debate firmly fixed in my own mind, but unsure of the view of the leadership of our union, given the views quoted to them in the press as their own. My own view is that the fate of working people, the trade unions and the Labour Party are one and the same and that any attempt to weaken links between us condemns us all to the same failure. The trade unions depend on effectively representing working people in industrial field for their survival and the Labour Party has to represent the trade unions for their survival in the political field. I do not feel therefore, there is any crime... for the trade union role in, in the constitutional procedure of the Party, whether it be selecting candidates or voting at conference, indeed I feel it is the strength of the movement. Which do the so called modernizers of the Party prefer, a party of two hundred thousand rift with division and on minority issues or a stable party with the input of four million working people? You tell me which is more democratic. Like many I have supported this union's policy my C L P, but also like many I have been hurt and angered by the attempts of some of the Party, both nationally and locally to deride and belittle the unions as a thing of the past and not relevant to the Party's new media image and that working class issues were not worth presenting at elections because they are unpopular with the tabloids. The modernizers have had their chance. This union has been more than tolerant with them. We offered them on the basis of them creating a mass membership party. This they have plainly not been able to do and yet they still try and bounce us along the same old route through their friends in the media. For many of us, even the options of support registers and levy plus, are schemes whether they are dubious starters. We feel it is now right and proper that the debate is to be had and that our roots, our heritage and our future are defended on our terms and in our forums and not in the editorials of Sunday newspapers, and as for les people's letters to the newspapers, and Kinnock and co saying to people, individual members, why should the Labour Party not trust you with the choice of your candidate, it is you who do the work to get them elected, who are they kidding? What did we do at the election, did we sit on our arses? No, it was our members out there, and this letter is typical of the contempt with which they seem to hold our members. We are not just here to be leaflet and voting fodder for professional politicians, we are here to take a part in our party, and we will defend that right. I second the composite. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Well said that. Motion three nine six, Lancashire Region, G M B, Parliamentary Panel. [Duncan:] Duncan, Lancashire Region, moving motion three nine six. Congress, the erm, nineteen eighty three, the gang of four, ten years on, nineteen ninety three. Perhaps what we're seeing is the emergence of a gang of five. We saved the party in nineteen eighty three, the G M B saved the party in that er,a crisis time th with the formation of the S D P and today the Tory government on its knees, staggering along and we have some people in the leadership of the Party and including, we can name them now, somebody's written,writte written to all the constituencies, Neil Kinnock, who have given up the ghost of Labour ever winning again, and that's what's the base and the root of what's going on, that's why they want these proposals going through, they want to separate the trade unions from the Party so they can do a deal with the Liberals because they've given up. Tha that's the reality of the situation, as I see it and people in my constituency [Dick:] Dun Duncan you are on three nine six by the way are ya? [Duncan:] Yep. [Dick:] Oh. [Duncan:] You told me three, nine, six. [Dick:] Yes, no I was just wondering, that's all. [Duncan:] Yep, I'm gonna get there [Dick:] Ti the clock is running very fast Duncan. [Duncan:] Right, okay, so the situation we're in today is that we're actually got to defend our Party, the Party is the whole labour movement, from that political direction in which the leadership or ex-leadership and some people in the Parliamentary Party seem to want to take us. I'm very active in the Party in Manchester and er would support the union and the region er, as a constituency er constituency member and I, you know, spend hours every week trying to ke keep this, keep the Party in Manchester going and I think that what we've actually got, what we're seeing inside the Parliamentary Party, are a number of people who seem to have forgotten who they're supposed to be representing. I think what we actually want is more people who are more in tune with working people and their hopes, and their dreams and their aspirations, and tha in, in parliament, in the House of Commons than we've got at the moment and so the motion I'm putting forward which is to propose that we actually look at the Parliamentary Panel and make sure we get a few decent shop stewards in the House of Commons, a few people who got experience of actually being on the shop floor, a few people who got experience in the last fourteen years, that the last four Conservative governments have actually tried and defend and fight for the interests of working people right down the grass root, those are the people that we actually need in the House of Commons and we shall be looking at our Parliamentary Panel and we shall be looking at it very seriously to ensure that we get those sort of people onto that Parliamentary Panel and those sort of people into the House of Commons, that's the best way to represent working people in Britain today and that's the sort of contribution the G M B should be making. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dave:] I'm here again, Dick. Dave, Lancashire Region. Last time today. We're talking about three nine six G M B Parliamentary Panel Dick and I'll just have to follow Duncan, he had his little rhetoric on the Labour Party that he's... he believes in so much. Well, I also believe, as I said earlier, that we should have p MPs who represent the G M B... about MPs who represent theirselves, for what they can get out of it, what kudos they can get out of it, but leave the activists to do all the work for 'em, to do all the work. Therefore if we have activists who are put on the panel alib fi safe seats, marginals or unwinnable seats and we've been in some areas where it's been unwinnable, haven't we Dick, we've still canvassed, we've got the votes up,p places like Macclesfield where they got Nicholas Winterton, where they got that racist Churchill. We've still been there. But eventually we're gonna get people in, if the C E C take up our recommendations from Manchester's one one five branch, that we're gonna get people who represent the members of the G M B, the working class, the people that we want to be represented. With the Parliamentary Panel now, as it says on the motion, there's a lot up for retirement. There'll be a lot of people vying for those places as well. I also have seen in Oldham near where I live, where an MP was imposed on that was held by Lamont for twenty two years, lived in Aberdeen I think it was, came to Oldham once a week to do his surgery and they put somebody in from the T N G. Don't know how it happened, but he got there and he lives in London now. Oldham about must be the only place where the l MPs have never seen the town. Why not get people that is activists and Oldham might well the branch for Oldham [cough] you've got Dave from Stockport they've got a MP retiring, they're getting on now, you've had, we've had your time now, for God's sake go you've been there long enough, let's get the activists in, let's get G M B members and let's get this parliament back to what it should be and not the Tories. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Right colleagues, I now propose to go round the regions and invite regional speakers on the Labour Party trade union links er document, Liverpool, do you wish to put a speaker in?... And if it is the intention of regions to put speakers on, especially those regions that are situated at back of Congress, if the speakers could come to the front it would save a great deal of time. [Alan:] Alan, Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. President, Congress. Liverpool and North Wales support this document. Unfortunately colleagues, colleagues from London, from Northern Ireland sorry, have no say.... Sorry about that lads.... Mind you there's a lot of Northern Ireland lads in London anyway, erm... we think that when our members voted to return the political levy they also voted to continue to have a say in the running of the Labour Party. The Labour Party was set up by the trade unions and is still funded by the trade unions. The Labour Party front bench must realize that the ordinary trade union members voted, as I said before, for a say in the Party. We'll need to go back to them again shortly. Will they vote in the same way if their right to have a say is taken away from them? As I said before, two thirds of our regions support the document. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Midland Region. [Peggy:] Peggy, Midland, East Coast Region, speaking to the C E C statement. The Labour Party was founded in the nineteen hundreds. After a decision of the Trade Union Congress which brought together trade unions and socialist societies. The financial strength that the trade union link has brought to the Labour Part Party is vital. To the functions of the Party itself, therefore trade unions provide the Labour Party with resources in money and organizational support. Britain is virtually the only country in western Europe where there is not now substantial state finance for our pol a polit political parties. The trade unions are directly linked to more than eight million people. The union membership leads to a ten percent h h higher like likelihood of voting Labour. The misleading public image of the unions and the role within the Labour Party is encouraged by the Tories and the Liberal Deb Democrats and their friends, the mass media. There can be no justification for the comments we have heard from certain leaders of right wing er trade unions, who wish to take away the very principle of what we're talking about, the block vote, especially one, when one of "em, allegedly, who haven't even bothered to pay their contributions to the General Election Fund. And I'm certainly not prepared to take any advice from them, when they can't even pay their way in the Labour Party. So why should we pander to the media and the right-wingers of the Party? The Labour Party cannot and will not survive without the affiliation of the trade union movement. What the right-wingers are saying is that we will have the trade unions" money but we will not give 'em the right to vote. Well I say to them, they can go to hell. I'm a Socialist,i but it's a swear word now, well [LAUGHTER] I am proud to be a Socialist so I will stand up and be counted. We support the views arrived at by the C E C, we should be proud of our title the Labour Party and shout from the hi highest rooftops where we live and work. The media campaign mentioned yesterday should be put in into operation immediately. Diluting our principles will not get us elected to power. Midland and East Coast Regions support the document. Congress, we ask you to do likewise. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Whilst the, the London Region speakers come into the rostra I'll just make the point, Peggy in fact is only the third women that's spoken this morning. I know that we've a long way today er to go today but would you just bear that in mind colleagues. Right Ed. [speaker001:] Congress, President. Ed, Westminster trade union Political Staffs Branch, London Region. Speaking against one member, one vote but also speaking against the half-hearted document that has been put out by the C E C. [clapping] Before starting comrades I think it's time that we nailed a couple of lies that are being put about, about this union and other trade unions. The first is that we're two disparate organizations, the Labour Party and the G M B. Well I'm gonna prove that's not the case. Could all Labour Party members in the audience, in the delegations, put their hands in the air please. Labour Party members. There you go comrades, every, nearly every single delegate is a Labour Party member. We are the Labour Party. [clapping] [Dick:] Eh, that was clever. That was very clever. [speaker001:] The spin doctors around the lad Labour leadership have claimed that the links need to be changed. Well, like most of you I spent four weeks during the general election out on the doorstep. I was in Mitchenham more than a marginal, which sadly the Tories retained and my own seat in Wantage, which also is a safe Tory seat. Not once was it mentioned, not once the links between Labour and the unions, nobody was interested. They were though interested in some of our policies which they weren't very happy with, but that seems to be ignored at the moment. What I would like to see colleagues is a slight change. Stop listening to people, such as Mr Kinnock, who has now written out to C L Ps telling them that they should be changing the way that the unions are linked to this Labour Party, not at all. It's time that they looked at themselves. They've lost four times and they should be asking themselves why. It's not the union movement that's lost the elections.... What I would like to see now is a turn, sorry turning to the document what I would like to see is actually a change of direction. What we are looking to do here is to water down what we have at the moment. I don't think that's necessary. The register of supporters wouldn't work. Can you imagine it comrades, you would have a position in which we attempt to put into place a bureaucratic list of people who are meant to be Labour supporters, they aren't Labour members. I can see the problems now, people come up to you and whisper in your ear, how comes he's on the list, I saw him going into the Liberal club or the Tory club the other day, he's not a Labour supporter. No, it's not a good idea at all, we should stick with what we have at the moment, the representation of people who opt to pay the political levy. That is the sensible way forward. Moving on, another suggestion is that we should ballot our members about who we vote for as M for MPs and also for the leader of the Party. Well that's fine, but why should it be down to thirty percent? We represent over four million levy paying members, the trade unions that is, and it's only right that they should have a proper say in the election of the Lad Labour leader, not just the thirty percent as is being suggested here. Comrades, it's time that this union, along with other trade unions, made it absolutely clear to the Labour leadership, we are the Labour Party, it is us that gives resources, our time, our money, everything to try and get them elected and it's time they stopped kicking us in the teeth at times such as this. I move that we reject this report and that we have proper links with the Labour Party. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] G M B Scotland President, Comrades. Ian, G M B Scotland. If what Gerald said in his address to Congress yesterday that he knows of no Labour MP who wants to break the links between the Party and the unions were absolutely true then there would be no need for this debate today. But the harsh reality is that that is not the case. For the last fourteen years the trade union movement has shouldered the blame for the Labour Party's dismal showing in the general elections. The press blamed us for Labour's defeat, the Tories blamed us for Labour's defeat and now it looks as thought the Labour Party is blaming us for Labour's defeat. What an appalling state of affairs. The Labour Party and the trade union movement are bonded together because we share the same objectives. We both fight for social justice, we both strive for a better quality of life for our people and most importantly we both demand equality. The trade union movement can't succeed on its own, the Labour Party would most definitely fail without us. President, the movement has taken a luckily approach in the political er arena for a number of years now. We've been made to feel ashamed of our actions, of the past. We've been accused of screwing employers into the ground by our demands. Shameful, I'll tell ya what's shameful. The actions of Hoover and its attempts to undermine the wages and conditions of union members. The disgraceful way ordinary, moderate men and women have been sacked at Timex and the way this government cheapened the working man and woman in this country by rejecting the Social Charter and by portraying Britain as a low wage economy. That's what's shameful in our society and it's only the Labour Party in unison with our movement that can right the wrongs of the past fourteen years. Comrades, what we are asking of the Party is quite simple, the extension of democracy. What everybody must realize is this, the trade union movement is the meat on the Labour Party's bones and without us the Party would be a skeleton, lost in a political wilderness. President, I'd like to finish with a mo much publicized phrase, from a political skeleton and the Labour Party should take heed, we are, we are thick, we are well, we are here and we are staying. I support. Hear, hear. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Southwestern Region. [speaker001:] Twenty years ago I joined the Labour Party when I was eighteen years old which gives an idea of how old I am now. That was before I was working, before I was a trade union member. For eight years I was a county councillor having won a seat from the Conservative Party. Throughout that period I've canvassed for the Labour Party, I've campaigned for the Labour Party, I've argued for the Labour Party and one of the items that made me join the Labour Party and one of the items I got other people to join the Labour Party was that Labour was a mass Party, because it consisted of hundreds of thousands of individual members and it consisted of millions of trade unionists. That was the pe appeal to me, that it represented the labour movement, it represented the working class at large. I've argued that for twenty years, now suddenly overnight it's become unfashionable and let's make it clear why it's become unfashionable. It's become unfashionable because the media is now looking at an alternative scapegoat for the problems the Conservative Party, that's why it's a reason and what is arising from the Labour leadership at the moment is purely an attempt to placate the media. Congress, I joined the Labour Party and I became a Socialist, I remain a member of the Labour Party, I remain a Socialist, I'm a trade unionist, I won't give up my Labour Party membership and I won't give up my involvement to my trade union and my linkage between the trade union movement and the Labour Party without a fight. I support this ma er motion. [clapping] [Dick:] Southern Region. Southern Region, wanna put a speaker in? Okay. [Prue:] Mickey Southern Region. President, Congress. Supporting in the C E C statement and Labour Party trade union links. What is there to say er what's not been said already yesterday, today, last year's meetings and in the last ten years. We are here pash passing motions, not to tell the TUs or the employers what went wrong, what's wrong. No, we're telling the government, we're telling them they've got it wrong [cough] excuse me. Every working person, every unemployed person, every pensioner knows only too well they've got it wrong. It's not the fat cats we gotta take notice of, who steal the cream and leave us with the sil sour milk even. President, we don't need on our door. Let's tell the world they've got it wrong. Don't they know that. Poverty, low pay, repossessions, crimes, hardships. You're staying in Portsmouth, spending a lot of cash, or generally we do. How much of that goes back into Tory funds, through the businesses, shops, the places you're staying? They don't ask your permission, if you wish that money to go into Tory funds. They want to stop our political levy and only half of the Tory funds is answerable for, from where they get it. If I can go onto the local theme a little, chair. Crime, in the first six months of Portsmouth in the residential areas on the outskirts, not in the town centre, five hundred and eighty break-ins into houses, eighty seven break-ins into houses. A hundred and thirty one of those were people who were out to work or unoccupied. Thirty seven of those were through doors what were left open or windows what were left open. Openg opportunity to just get a few bob. Car crime, nine hundred and sixty cars so far this year have been broke into in the Portsmouth, bearing in mind yours are around the town. Three hundred and seven of 'em are stolen, ninety one still not been repossessed. Twenty percent, twenty five percent of the crime committed em nationally, is by people under the age of sixteen. Twenty five percent, again, of sixteen to twenty five years old. Not much hope of a job, not much chance of a million young people who are trying to find cash or work, a waste of skills, a whole generation. Nearly one out of three sixteen year olds are without work, not much for the Tory law and order. Now you hear more cuts in the D S S, medical prescriptions, V A T on heating, light, more crime for cash. Our national income per head is lower than the French, it's falling below that on Hong Kong. Every month twenty thousand manufacturing jobs go. John, to get to the point, we've had a bus in Portsmouth plastered with G M B slo slogans, a talking point of Portsmouth for the last fortnight. What a good talking point, people didn't know what the G M B was, didn't know what they actually truly stood for with all the publicity what we do, all the good work we do lately, locally. Let's get the message over, let's go without one congress and I know that's near to John's heart and request the other unions, A E U, U C A T, T N G, request the T N, T U C to do the same and then plaster over every bus in Britain, the G M B's policy. Let's get Labour in, let's get our motion starting to work, let's keep the Labour Party trade union link, it's our only friend we've got in Parliament. For better conditions, less crime, a better Britain and the way ahead, Southern support. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Northern Region. Here's Billy. Alright Billy. [LAUGHTER] [Les:] Billy Northern Region. President, colleagues. I have over the years many times come to the rostrum but for the first time it gives me no pleasure at all in saying what has to be said. Not so long ago the Labour was singing the praises of the trade union movement, especially the G M B, yet, only last night on T V a Shadow Minister, David said the G M B were wrong in what they were doing, they should be behind John Smith. I thought only Tories done U-turns. Because we have all heard John Smith in the past say, I would rather lose an arm than lose the support of the G M B. Colleagues, in the words of Chief Sitting Bull man with pale face speaks with forked tongue. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Les:] Remember colleagues, it was our union under the leadership of Will Thorn that pushed for and formed the Labour Party. We should not allow John Smith and his hitmen to take it from us. For fourteen years we have been bashed by the Tories, we have been led by a pound of poof T U C and as now it's time to stand up and be counted. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Les:] If the Labour Party, if the Labour Party want our money then we want some influence and we don't, and we, and if they don't want to represent the views of our members they can do without our money. The link with Labour has got to be more than just signing a cheque. You might ask what does it cost the G M B, with affiliation fees, etcetera etcetera etcetera, around three million a year. [shouting] Over the last fourteen years forty two million pounds and if they go on the way their going on and the way they're talking it's all gonna be for nicks nowt []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Les:] Just think, colleagues, what we could have done with forty two million pounds, we could have had a conference twice a year not the biannual conference they're on about. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Les:] Our, our minimum demand colleagues must be one, a reformed if electoral college for a selection of leader and for candidates, to a continual role for trade unions at conference. It makes me wonder colleagues, why this issue has been promoted lately. Do some politicians deliberately wish to provoke conflict amongst us and it's not just about money, many G M B members volunteer. We've had the speakers up here saying that they're going out, they're knocking on doors, so you know, it's not just about money, but I tell you what if they go on in the way they're going on there's no way Joe Bloggs is going out quite tonight on a vote night saying come out and give us your vote. That's all gonna be finished an'all, man. And there'll be plenty like me. This morning, this morning you know, I'm right up with the news isn't I? [LAUGHTER] This morning John Smith says he is saddened by John 's remarks, he thinks it will give some material to John Major, I've got news for him, many times I've been saddened when he's said nowt to John Major when all the clangers he's dropped. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Les:] So, they don't want us to have a say in the Labour Party. There's nobody, [shouting] nobody can tell me that the big national companies who pour money into the Tory fund, that they don't have a say in their policy. Who do they think they're kidding []? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Les:] I'll tell you another thing, whatever the Spitting Images say about John he pays his money, he doesn't grab his bermuda shorts and a wristwatch and fly off to the sunny islands. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Les:] Colleagues, colleagues, let me remind you once more, they need us more than we need them. G M B members should be always full members, no influence, no penance for our members, no way. It's our Party and we should not give up without a fight. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [cheering and whistling] [Dick:] Well done, Billy. Er. Lancashire. Follow that, Duncan. [Duncan:] Yeah, I can't [Dick:] [LAUGHTER] [Duncan:] I'm not going to attempt to. Duncan, Lancashire Region, supporting the er t the C E C statement. I mean it's quite clear isn't it what we wa we want a party of Labour, we're organized, we're organized mass organization that speaks for almost a million people in this union, I don't but er, almost a million people. We're speaking for working people in this country and we are a reliable indicator of the feelings, the dreams, the hopes of working people right across the country and any party that attempts to divorce itself from an organization such as ours, that attempts to speak for working people will lose its way. At the same time,d the Tories are on their knees, some people, as I said earlier, I think it's just as relevant in this debate, seem to have lost their way and when you took, look at what they're proposing in terms of say, the er the fifty percent, the, the er M Ps, fifty percent of the votes for er the Parliamentary leader which of course is very consistent with, right, fifty percent of the vote, you take that along with proportional representation and what I believe you're seeing is the number of people who have given up the ghost and are preparing to restructure the Party around coalition politics, and that's where they're heading, and they're heading completely in the wrong direction because we're more in tune with what's going on in this country, the po opinion polls are saying fifty nine percent of the people actually I think, believe that er the Labour government is possible and will be voting for a Labour government, the alternative road is to oblivion and it's not about modernizing, the people who're proposing this coalition politics aren't modernizers, they're Victorian politics, that's what they're about, they're about taking us back, back before we created the Party, before we learnt the lesson that we needed to represent ourselves politically, they're going back to, let's skil see what we get out of the Liberals, the free trade Liberals, in the nineteenth century, that's where they're going back, that's not about modernization, real modernization is about making sure that the Labour Party speaks for the working people up and down this country and that's our contribution to make to that Party and therefore we should have a role in decision making and influencing the Party that enables us as an organization to express that feeling, and that understanding of what people actually want in this country, and that's why we're supporting the C E C proposals. Now, there's an, there's an alternative being put forward as a compromise, but a a compromise isn't a compromise, the compromise as it looks er involving us, and we're all Party members, as already indicated, as individuals and saying top up, let's top up, we're already paying aren't we, the political levy, let's pay a bit more, right, is actually one that reduces our input as an organization. Now I supported Prescott, I must say I voted for him for the er for deputy leader, right, but I think he's wrong, right, on this particular issue, this compromise that he's floating and I think it should be dropped. I think we should be going with the C E C proposals and we should maintain our influence and our role in the Party as a collective organization, a mass organization, of over eight hundred thousand members and will be steadily rising in the foreseeable future. I support on behalf of Lancashire Region. [Dick:] Thanks Duncan. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Yorkshire Region [Dave:] President, Congress. Dave, Yorkshire and North Derbyshire Region speaking in support of the C E C sta statement. Colleagues, one hundred years ago in Bradford trade unionists and Socialists got together to form the Independent Labour Party which was the forerunner of the Labour Party as we know it today. In those days although there were some independent groups of radicals and others of no elite, allegiance the two main parties in Parliament were the Whigs and the Tories. Very few MPs were interested in the wor working people's demand. Trade unionists knew that they could only achieve a limited level of their ambitions through industrial means and they realized that they needed working class MPs to support them in parliament. They knew that they needed to form a political party that have three main aims, the need for working class M Ps, the need for an independent party to represent working people, the need for a to propagate new Socialist ideals. The Party was formed for those reasons. Since then, by working together we have achieved many of our aims. Unfortunately, most of them bo achievements are now under threat. Old age pensions, compensation for accidents and injuries at work, free education for all children, the National Health Service, legislation regarding unfair dismissal and the nationwide public transport. After fourteen years of Tory rule all these and many other achievements are seriously threatened. We have already experienced the abolition of free eye and dental checks, we are suffering from the creeping privatization of the Health Service, the selling off of our water, our crumbling schools, and yet we have to concentrate on the issue of trade union, Labour Party links. Trade unionists did not lose Labour the last election. Quite the opposite. Once again the trade unions working individually and through the trade unions for Labour pulled out all the stops to try and secure a Labour victory. I am not convinced that this issue should be on the political agenda at all, not at this time, not at any time, in fact I am pretty convinced that this is a Tory agenda, a media agenda, why they do they not want to talk about crooks and spivs that support them, that donate thousands of pounds into their coffers? They want to set our agenda. They want to create a division in our ranks. It is the oldest trick in the book, divide and conquer. We accept modernization, we understand that the card or the block vote is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Labour Party procedure. It is criticized by the Tories and the media and of course they never explain how it works, so it is not surprising that the general public is suspicious of it. The G M B is a progressive union, we can support constructive change but we cannot support any changes that will disenfranchise ourselves from our Party. Remember, the Labour Party was formed for working people because we had an unsympathetic Tory government. All the top jobs were taken by people from privileged backgrounds. There was an enormous gap between the rich and the poor, nothing has changed. Interestingly enough Larry Witty, the General Secretary of the Labour Party, said at last year's Labour Party Conference that if it had not been for the steadily, steady influence of the unions during the eighties, when the Party was tearing itself in two, we would not have a Labour Party today. A recent G M B poll showed that sixty nine percent of people thought the unions should support Labour to balance big biglifs big business and what a major balancing act that is. The shipping and construction group P & O gave a hundred thousand pounds to the Tory election fund. Public relations Company Shanwick gave the same. Defence contractors Rolls Royce gave sixty thousand pounds, while United Newspapers, owners of the Express and the Star upped their donation last year. These people have the audacity to question our links, our legitimate links with our Party. Colleagues, we must ensure that the links are strengthened and not weakened. Too many people, the old, the young and the unemployed, working people in all occupations... do not maintain our bond. Remember why the Labour Party was formed, remember who formed it, nothing has changed. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Birmingham Region [Duncan:] President, Congress. Rose, Birmingham Region and I make it very clear on the onset that our Region is having a free vote on this because we haven't had the opportunity to discuss the document and therefore what I'm saying is purely my own views. The statement before us on the Labour Party and the trade union links sets aside various recommendations on how we are going to cast our block vote at this year's Labour Party Conference on this issue... the options open to us are listed in this paper and I'd like to make the following observations. We as a trade union have been in the forefront of campaigning and supporting the Labour Party, not just as, in its election battle, but in attempting to modernize the Party's thinking, the Party administration, be it on the issue of quotas for women, on policy making, on finances and on the block vote. The G M B should be proud of this role, however politics and negotiations are all about compromise and not about head-on collisions and we try and avoid these as much as possible. Therefore I believe we can still arrive at a compromise on the options in the statement. Let's look at the recommendation of the C E C on the selection of parliamentary candidates. They suggest we support a reformed electoral college for the next round of selection, every transition towards the use of the register of Labour supporters for subsequent selection. I think we should say here and now that we support option one B, registered supporters as a compromise. I say this because I believe that those constitutional issues have to be decided once and for all at this year's Party Conference. We shouldn't adopt stands that we try this now and try something else next time round, which I believe is what the C E C is recommending. Turning now to the C E C recommendation on the election of the Labour Party leader and deputy leader. I support the recommendation of five B but the vote by trade unions and Socialist societies should be a ballot of registered Labour supporters. President, Congress, the introduction in the C E C statement is a laudable one and part of it states, and I quote, the G M B and others have asserted that reform means democratizing and strengthening the links by giving direct votes to individual union members. We as activists hold very special the important role trade unions have played in the Labour Party and feel that we have a continued role to play. However, in the need to arrive at a compromise and not to have full blown confrontation, a register of Labour supporters is the answer. At least that way I shall feel more confident that it's Labour Party members and supporters who are selecting candidates and electing the leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party and not a Liberal or Tory trade unionist who happens to be paying the political levy. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed Rose. I am now gonna call the General Secretary to respond briefly to the debate, colleagues. [Dave:] Well colleagues, there are couple of points that were raised that I think need a response. The last was Rose's comment about the register. Yeah, well the trouble with the register was that er, when it was put forward, and it was put forward by Tom Burlison and Tom Sawyer of, er and they worked very, very hard, no one harder than Tom Burlison, to try to establish this possibility as a compromise to avoid the sort of conflicts that we're talking about at the moment. It wasn't our best position, but the supporters of O M O V wouldn't listen, wouldn't consider and you've heard Tom's record of those sad events, and of course then we were told that the Party leader says it would be administratively impossible to put the register in place this year in any event. So, that's why we went back to the reformed electoral college. Ed, I think argued a very strong case for a greater level of influence of trade unionists in the Party than is suggested in this reform and I can see the force of those remarks but the C E C adopted the position that we did not want to take a position of dominance to the Party Conference. We wanted levy payers to have a say but a say within the broad sweep of Labour Party opinions. We deliberately went for a position of responsibility and moderation in this argument, where if I may say so, some other people haven't put the same constraints on themselves. Two further points, Dave expressed it best, I think. The supporters of O M O V have put their arguments in what can only be said to be a ham-fisted and insulting way. They may have been intending to talk about reform of the Labour Party constitution, but what ordinary trade unionists heard was senior members of the Party talking as if they were ashamed of the trade union connection. That was what came through and that's what we all deplore. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dave:] People are gonna have to work very hard to repair that damage. Secondly, and a slightly personal comment, one front- bencher was asked, er, about my comments in opposition to O M O V and in favour of trade union participation and he said John Edmunds is expressing his views, they are not the views of G M B members. Well, are you listening Gordon, now you know. So colleagues, support the report, support composite twenty nine, support the motion, because never forget, it's our Party too. Thank you colleagues. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, we'll take the vote now. All the in favour of the C E C statement would you please indicate? Against? That's carried. All those in favour of composite twenty nine? Against? That's carried. All those in favour of motion three nine six? Against? That's carried. Thanks very much indeed colleagues, and can I congratulate Congress for that particular debate. There is no other organization within the movement that could provide such a level of debate on this particular matter. Thank you very much and congratulations colleagues. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] We now turn to four motions in respect of the Labour Party motion three nine four, three nine nine, motion four O two and motion four O three. So n can I now call motion three nine four, representation at Labour and T U C conferences, G M B Scotland to move. Would the other speakers please come down to the front. President, Comrades, er Ian, G M B Scotland, moving motion three nine four. Er, President I'm going to say the time factor and I'll try to be as brief as possible. When apologize Colleague, just one second, I do apologize for, for cutting in, but colleagues if you're, if it's your intention to leave Congress for a few moments please do it as quietly as possible. Colleague. Er, thanks President. Er, let me apologize if the motion appears a little vague. What is being asked is this. When elected delegate for region to the T, T U C in the Labour Party conferences is not enough. The representation at Labour and T U C conferences does not reflect a lay representative organization which we are supposed to be. I was a constituency delegate till last year's Labour Party conference and I was absolutely astonished to see so many people from Head Office floating around the conference floor. National Officers, National Secretaries, Research Officers, other personnel from Head Office were a large part of the delegation... not always around when important votes were being taken. President, having bums in seats has never been more important, well attended conferences. To ensure a wider democratic representation at conferences urge the C E C to look seriously at the situation and report back next year. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion three nine four seconded. Is it seconded, formally seconded? Thanks very much. Motion three nine nine. Labour Local Authorities, London Region to move. [Peggy:] John, London Region, moving motion three nine nine, Labour Local Authorities. The debate we've just had on Labour Party links raises questions, er, we believe about our attitude, our attitude, the union's attitude to the Party, the Labour Party when it does hold power, which of course it does, er locally in some areas of this country. This motion is about Labour Party accountability to our own union members and not about our accountability to a handful of M Ps, so whatever the result of the er particular, er Labour Party links debate we've just had, it's still important to consider the practical er effects of the link we have with the Labour Party locally. I'm happy to see that the attitude of the C E C and of the General Secretary has changed radically, I would say, since last year, when it and they opposed the Liverpool motion, which also called for accountability of Labour councillors and M Ps. And it's now, the C E C is now, and the General Secretary is now, rightly so, calling loudly for proper accountability from all levels, er of the Party organization. Whether we get it or not's another matter. This motion seeks at least to, to obtain some of that accountability. Liverpool City Council last year sacked hundreds of G M B members. Industrial tribunals as we heard yesterday from Ian have decided they were wrongly dismissed and that indicates the standard of the union locally but poses the question of why it was impossible for our officials, from the General Secretary downwards, to effect any influence whatsoever on the attitude of Liverpool City Council. The same question, that lack of influence on Labour authorities who are behaving like the worst Tory employers, has to be posed in relation to a number of situations throughout the country. For example, and the General Secretary was giving examples yesterday so I'm entitled to do one as well, for example, Islington Council, where a direct Labour organization that had successfully survived and grown through the worst of the Thatcher years and the worst of the Thatcher attack on public services has now fallen victim to a combination of a weak and corrupt Labour Council and an incompetent senior management. Hundreds of workers have been sacked, the convener and deputy convener victimized, while millions of pounds went out to private contractors. Now, there's nothing new for people who work for Labour Authorities and Local Authorities in general in that story, new at all. What's different about it is that we possess, the G M B London Region, possess sworn statements from managers and ex Chief Officers that conclusively demonstrate that what the trade union has been saying all along, what the G M B's been saying all along, about victimization, financial mismanagement and corruption, have in ta in fact taken place. That's what those sworn statements say. Even with this kind of evidence, even with that kind of evidence, almost uniquely good evidence in my experience, the Council leadership, which is in, has been in possession of it for the best part of a month has made no move to suspend any Chief Officer on charges of gross misconduct, which of course if it had been any of our members accused of something like that, they'd have been down the road instantly, nor has it reinstated any worker wrongly sacked. So, it'll be another Liverpool. Industrial Tribunals may make that decision but the Islington Council certainly isn't going to. Furthermore Jack, Larry, Terry, the Secretary of the Greater London Labour Party, have also been in possession of this evidence, and before and after receiving that evidence have apparently completely failed over a period of eight months to get Islington Labour Council to behave in a responsible fashion, just like Liverpool, and I'm sure, just like a number of other Labour Councils. The question for us, whatever the situation about Labour Party links, is how long we can continue to argue for our members to support the Labour Party locally and nationally, to pay the political levy to a Party that treats this union and treats union members with utter and absolute contempt. Whatever the form of the link that is chosen at Labour Party Conference, that ought to be top of our agenda. What is the Party gonna do for us, not what are we gonna do for the Party. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Seconder for three nine nine? Thanks very much. Call the mover of motion four O two. Labour Party Subscription Contributions. Midland Region. [speaker001:] , Midland East Coast Region. President, Congress. Labour Party contribution subscriptions. Congress, as a strong Labour Party supporter and member for many years, and my father before me, I've always believed it to be the working man's Party, created and born from the sweat and blood of our predecessors, and throughout many years supported and financed by the unions with our subscriptions and the political levy and I see it's supported by the trade unions. That does not mean that the Labour Party are run or ruled by the trade unions. We do have and will maintain the links and influence within the Labour Party, or it would not even survive without us. Us meaning we, meaning our members, who voted to pay the political levy. Us meaning we, our members paying the eighteen pound to join the Labour Party. Us meaning we, our member attending a local Party, C L Ps, Labour groups, etcetera. Us, our members campaigning to secure councillors, MPs getting elected. Without any of us there would be no Labour Party. A party without influence, a party with opposition to even talk about. We must not let them forget where the Party came from. To encourage recruitment is not to price out existing members, not to prevent a possible mass membership, and although we encourage our members to join, we encourage family and friends also. When we're given the price tag, eighteen pounds, that's a different matter. So this Congress must pursue on our behalf, a serious approach to the Labour Party to reduce the price tag. How do we encourage membership when you openly deny them the right to vote? How can you survive without the political levy? How you can survive without those trade union subscriptions? The Labour Party is a party of the working class people. Who are the people who do the campaigning, the leafleting in every election, in every national election? We the union are the back-up system as been said by previous speakers. I say to John Smith, Neil Kinnock, Gordon Brown and the rest, the ones who put signature to paper on one member, one vote, remember all the elections in the past, remember Sheffield. Where does it come from, all the costs of those campaigns? Whom does it come from? You want my money, you want my support, you want me to campaign for the future, you want me to recruit, then to get all of this reduce the cost of the subscriptions thus encouraging mass trade union membership. Do not encourage people to stop paying the political levy, that is damaging itself. Do not, by taking away their right to vote or participate in their policies and selections, you need the back-up teams of the trade unions in all its elections. You need the finances of the affiliations and the subscriptions. To survive, price it right, re-look at the priorities. You are damaging the Labour Party, you are jeopardizing any opposition to this, this present Government, you're jeopardizing the future survival of the Labour Party. I have pleasure in moving motion four O two. [clapping] John, Midland and East Coast Region. President, Congress. Increasing the contribution rate is not the answer to gaining mass membership to the Party. With party membership on the decline could one of the reasons for this be because of the cost? I haven't the answer to what an acceptable level of membership fee is but I'm certain an ever increasing rate will never generate a party of mass membership. The Party is dependent upon its activists, no more so than at elections. Can we afford for the activists to be priced out of the Party? We all are aware that funds have to be generated but it, it causes a lot of membership. That other means of raising revenue will have to be looked for, I second. [clapping] [Dick:] Motion four O three, Midland to move. [speaker001:] John, Midland and East Coast Region. President, Congress. Does the Labour Party recognize its members of longstanding? The answer is no. There is no automatic award given to its. A comrade in my local Labour Party branch joined the Party more than sixty two years ago. We wanted to give him a gift to mark his membership. It was agreed that the Secretary of the Party would ask the Party to inform us of any awards, plaques etcetera, that could be presented to recognize his length of membership. Now it's started to get confused. A letter that relating to awards was received from the Party. It stated, there is no reason why your long serving member should not be nominated for a merit award. Unfortunately, we do not have any reason merit awards as such. With a reply like that it would have been a waste of time and effort to pursue the issue. We had to change direction. John Prescott, MP for Hull East was approached. John did the business for us. At a ceremony he presented a signed certificate recognizing the contribution and support to the Party the member had given. I don't believe that anyone joins the Party thinking that one day they will receive some token or award. Most of us would be happy with a membership card. I move. [clapping] [Dick:] Ken, Midland and East Coast Region. President, Congress. Seconding motion four O three. Congress, this simply calls for the Labour Party, like the G M B and its experience yesterday in awarding like the gold badge to show and acknowledge long serving members with award of some sort of recognition. You can imagine the response a member would feel, actually receiving such a gesture. Ask Peggy, Peggy, ask Eric, we saw it, we heard it. How they felt yesterday receiving the gold, the gold badge. The length of service is on record at Walworth Road and it would not be of a great cost if you look at retaining membership who are real stalwarts of the Party. I don't like it when people take monies from people and forget or pretend that we are the faceless people. Just a thank you or the bill for next year's contribution. Many of us put hours of our spare time attending Labour Party meetings, AGMs City Party, Labour Groups and many more fringe meetings, all outside our normal days of work. Those of us who are fortunate to be in work. So, in recognition of loyal service and commitment an award would not come amiss. I second motion. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, the C E C are recommending acceptance and er, certainly in respect of several and reference on one motion and I call Robert to put their view. [speaker009:] Thanks President. Robert, G M B Scotland, speaking on behalf of the C, C E C replying to motions three nine four, three nine nine and four O two and four O three. On three nine four er, the C E C is seeking reference back er, three nine four deals with G M B delegations to Labour Party and T U C. As the speaker indicated er, the C E C will not declare exactly what the intentions of the motions were but it's now, er now it's clear from the remarks of the speaker. The motion seeks to limit the number of full-time officials, in favour of the members. The proportion of full-time officials er, is already ro already low, for example, at last year's Labour Party Conference, of seventy four delegates, sixty three were either C E C delegates or lay members elected from the Regions. The remaining er, eleven erm, on the delegation were made up of General Secretary, Deputy General Secretary, elected national officers and a few senior staff. These people were needed to give advice on policy and industrial matters. The C E C has no difficulty with the principle to restrict numbers of full-time officials er, that are required, however erm, I think we also want to take into account er, the developments that are referred to in the motion with respect of the Labour Party and if these developments take place we will obviously have to examine that before we come to any decision on the matter. Er, motion three nine nine. The C E C support with er this qualification. Er, accountability of local representatives is obviously supported but we should not limit that demand only to G M B er councillors or councillors who have G M B connections. It is the view of the C E C that all Labour councillors and all Labour Councils should be demanded to consult on reorganization, redundancy and redeployment and improving of services and I know that the national section secretary, Mick is already compiling a list of G M B councillors which will no doubt help in trying to er, ensure that that particular motion meets its objectives in the coming year. Motion four O two, the C E C accepts the basic aim of four O two, that is of increasing Labour Party membership. Er, I would ask delegates to bear in mind that trade union members can already join er, on the youth rates er, obviously an extension of that scheme would be welcome and is welcomed by the C E C. However, and it is a view of the C E C that although the current level of contributions, contributions is high, it is not the only barrier to mass membership, I don't intend to go into a list of other reasons why some people choose not to join the Labour Party but I'm quite sure that many delegates here can give some examples at a local level. Also some political levy paying members may not join as individuals, although they remain ardent supporters of Labour and come out and work and vote for Labour at both national and local elections. It's already been said this morning they are entitled to a voice and therefore we need to retain er, a separate trade union membership. On motion four O three the C E C supports, obviously supports awards for long serving Labour Party members. These already exist as, as obviously the speakers to the motion is, are aware, they already exist at a national level, erm if we support this motion obviously what we're talking about here is introducing er awards at local or regional level. To summarize er delegates the C E C therefore is asking referral on motion three nine four, support with qua with the qualifications already mentioned for motions three nine nine, four O two and four O three. Thank you very much. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much Robert. Colleagues, motion three nine four, reference is being sought with the G M B Scotland agree, thanks very much. Conference agree, thanks very much. Motion three nine nine is being accepted, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion four O two, we're asking for your support, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Mo motion four O three being recommended to accept, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, it's about by my watch, which is probably wrong anyway, but however it's the one we're working to, about twenty six minutes past twelve. Now, what I'd like to do, I mean it's only sun shining out there so you'd only be wasting your time anyway, I'd like to consult you about moving on and getting in the next four motions on union organization. I think with your assistance we could probably get through it in about fifteen, twenty minutes. It would help us, er in terms of the end of the week. Would you agree to that? Thanks very much indeed colleagues. So, there's motions one seven five, one seven six, one seven seven and one seven eight in this particular section. Frank will be asked to respond on behalf of the C E C because there are various different stances the C E C are taking on these particular motions. So, I now call motion one seven five, Southern Region to move, again colleagues, it would be helpful if movers and seconders would come down to the, the front. [Prue:] Pauline, Securicor Apex five, Southern Region. Members, the retention of membership is a very thorny problem. When you're recruiting it's a bit like courting. When you first have eye to eye contact everything is new, splendid, you want to do the very best for each other, you want to look your best, you want to tell them all the good things and eventually you get married. And once you're married a little bit of complacency settles in and your membership is not quite so well served, but what you've got to remember is that whilst you're busy losing interest, somebody else is always interested in your partner or your member, so when, I'll rephrase that [LAUGHTER] I'll rephrase that. Your party, your other, never mind, and when that happens you get poaching and I've always said, if you treat your membership properly they'll stay with you, but you've also got to remember that the union is in dire financial straits, or so it tells us. But if you pare your officers to the bone, if you cut them any longer, you will not get a decent service from them, you will just have people in boxes with lids firmly placed on them and then where will the union be? If you don't give a man or a woman time to do a single job properly, then it's not worth doing. It's no use doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that and getting absolutely nowhere, because you'll get the two finger job. Go away, we'll go somewhere else where we can be looked after properly. So all the while you're retaining members, it's great, don't get complacent. John, don't screw your officers down into a box, because you're stretching them further and further. I know you've got financial problems, who hasn't, just remember, you've got to speculate to accumulate. I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Les:] Ann, Southern Region, seconding motion one seven five. President, Congress. The retention of members should be high on our priority list. It is obviously important to get people to join the G M B and it's just as important to keep them as members once they have joined. In the Southern Region we have introduced a retention system which is producing positive results as you will see in our regional report. With the way jobs are going it's harder to keep members as they move from job to job. Our members need to know that the services and benefits that the union provide are available to them regardless of where they work. The members are the lifeblood of this union and we cannot afford to lose any more. By making our benefits and services as attractive as possible it will encourage our members to stay with the G M B regardless of where they work. Also we could recruit new members in other workplaces who will be aware of what the G M B provides. Colleagues, we must not forget the low paid and the part-time workers, the majority of whom are women. To these people, we not only have to offer an attractive package but to be more visible, especially during these troubled times. President, Congress, once again working people face another political attack. It is more important than ever to develop methods and policies to retain members. Congress, I urge you to support this motion. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Ken, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving motion one seven six, Branch Administration Officers. Conference, we are all well aware of the terrific financial burden that this union has been under over the last few years. With that burden around us we have seen a reduction in the number of full-time officers being appointed by the union and which in turn has without any doubt had a detrimental effect upon the members who we serve. It is for that very reason that I am moving this motion today... as it gives us the opportunity to implement the rules of the union and at the same time would enable us to put into position, people who would be able to do all those things that are necessary to achieve what we require, recruitment, organization, paperwork, back-up service to full-time officials. That back-up service would also allow our full-time officers to concentrate on the recruitment and servicing of our members, which must and must only be and remain our highest priority. As time goes on, our membership and our finances will decide when we can take on full-time officials. This motion also creates an opportunity for the union, our union, the members' union, to encourage young members, members and branch activists to take on the role of branch administration officers within the regions we represent here today and gain experience in an area of trade union work that they thought might never have, have existed. Conference, I believe that this existing rule nineteen, gives the G M B an opportunity to expand into branch administration officers across all the regions and use them to do any job that is needed and expected by the members. Conference, I believe that we can succeed if you are prepared to support this motion and I will leave you with this point. The only way forward for this great union is for all of us to recruit new members, so all of us must take this responsibility seriously. Branch administration officers are as I, I've already said, we'll be able to recruit and support full-time officials. Conference, I want to help that, and solve that position. I hope we all want to help together as a team and support our already stretched full-time officials. Rule nineteen gives us that opportunity. So congress, please don't let's waste the opportunity before us today. I therefore ask for your support. Thank you, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dave:] Linda, Midland and East Coast Region, seconding motion one seven six, Branch Administration Officers. President, Congress. The mover has covered the motion extensively, but I'd like to add a couple of more points. We are not plucking this position out of the air, it's already there. In these difficult times it makes sense to look again at this post. It's self financing. We could promote computer training for the D A Os enabling a move to computer as branch records, making branch administration efficient and streamlined. Very importantly, just maybe, these prospective, highly motivated, branch admin officers would inject new life into non-active branches and from a personal point of view, I would see this as an opportunity to gain experience, which would encourage them to apply for regional organizer's jobs when they come available and don't we need more women officers? Please support. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion one seven seven, London. [Duncan:] President. President, Congress. Keith, London Region, moving motion one seven seven. Congress, I understand the C E C are accepting this resolution for the qualifications so I will be brief. Past practice will to use such private, although they should have now, by now, all but disappeared. If we are to retain a level of even-handedness when dealing with employers ourselves we should at least make sure our own house is in order. If jobs or vacancies exist, our people, G M B people, should fill those vacancies. We have enough unemployed activists, who with a little training could cover those vacancies. Congress, I move. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Would the seconder for one seven seven, formally seconded, thank you very much. One seven eight, Liverpool Region to move. Formally moved, is it formally seconded? Is it formally carried? Oh, we can't, we referred in it. Oh [LAUGHTER] sorry about that Frank. I do everything possible to help Regional Secretaries. [Dave:] Thank you President. Frank replying on behalf of the C E C to one seven five, one seven six, one seven seven and one seven eight. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support one seven five. We seek withdrawal of motion one seven six in favour of one seven eight, we ask you to accept motion one seven seven where the certain qualifications and we seek referral of motion one seven eight. Colleagues, motion one seven five is in line with the union's general approach therefore the C E C has accepted this motion. The C E C seeks withdrawal of one seven six. In nineteen eighty four the C E C and this Congress favoured moving away from full-time officers to labour and secretaries and indeed we have implemented that policy. Even you, at later conferences, have protected those people when we have adjusted branch commission and we feel it would be a retrograde step to try and go back and turn those years away. Bearing those points in mind one seven eight offers a better way forward to use the skills and experience of our lay officials and members. Motion one seven seven, of course we accept in principle, that where we have vacancies, permanent vacancies, we should employ direct staff and if possible our members, which we do try to do. However, we do have some occasional vacancies, maternity leave, building maintenance work, long term sick, where we have to make sure our labour force is protected, where we do involve temporary labour and even on those occasions we attempt to employ people direct as some regions know. So, on that basis, we then accept that motion with those reservations. The contents of motion one seven eight appear to be sound, conference, we have been tried and we have been tried by some regions in a very limited way with some success. However, the C, C E C feels it needs to consult with regions, it needs more closely to examine the point in question and we would ask for reference of that resolution. I move. [Dick:] Thanks Frank. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you, President. Er, Congress. I hear what the C E C are saying and yes, I'm concerned about the union's finances. But the rulebook provision identifies branch administration officers, which I called for in the motion. Why do we continue to identify positions in our union rules if we're not gonna use them, and another point, is the, if rule nineteen was part of an employer's agreement, we would be first to challenge that agreement and ask why it was not implemented. I've been trained on union education courses, the same as you people have out there today, this union spends a tremin tremendous amount of money on training shop stewards to challenge such agreements. So Congress, I wish to challenge it. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Dick:] Okay Ken, thank you. Colleagues, motion one seven five is being accepted, I put it to the vote, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. And you've heard from Ken in respect of one seven six, he's not prepared to withdraw, so therefore the C E C are recommending opposition. All those in favour of the motion? Against? That's lost. Motion one seven seven is being accepted, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion one seven eight, reference is being sought and I understand that Liverpool have agreed. Conference agree, thanks very much indeed. Colleagues, just before we adjourn for lunch, could I ask you to try and take the opportunity to visit the Labour Party and Trade Unions for Labour stand where there is a live link to the national membership system. Thanks very much indeed. Congress stands adjourned until two P M, thank you.