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MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao is in Sichuan province today. He's inspecting the so called quake lake, that's a lake formed by landslides after last month's 7.9 earthquake. ALEX CHADWICK, host: Authorities have evacuated one quarter of a million people in the flood path of that lake. For some it's their second flight to safety, and still many are anxious to get back home. Jamila Trindle reports. JAMILA TRINDLE: Tua Hua Shan or Peach Blossom Mountain is really just a hill, but it's become a refuge for thousands of people from low lying villages nearby. If the dammed river upstream gives way and floods the valley, it should still be above water. For people staying here, it's been three weeks of fear and uncertainty. After living through one disaster and fleeing the threat of another. Mr. WEN FONG: (Through translator) Everyone wants peace and quiet, but the quake and the flood makes everyone here nervous. If the situation continues like this, our hearts won't be able to take it anymore. It's so terrible. JAMILA TRINDLE: Wen Fong (ph) says he has nightmares about the quake, the aftershocks, and now the flood, too. A local TV station has wired up a television. A few people are gathered around waiting for news about the lake that still threatens to flood their towns. Others have retreated into the woods nearby to get out of the heat. At first glance, with parents playing cards and kids running through the trees, it looks like everyone's just out here for a day in the country. Though it all appears carefree, when I asked the kids what they've been doing these days, they're quick to answer avoiding disaster. The adults are laughing and chattering around their card game, maybe out of nervousness. They say they're constantly anxious. Wong Guen Quay(ph) says she's still scared, even here. Ms. WONG GUEN QUAY (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) I worry about a bigger earthquake or flood coming. Maybe this place where we're staying will also be destroyed. After the quake, you know, my legs are always soft. It's like I'm swaying in the wind when I walk. All day my brain is nervous and my heart feels like it's going to stop. JAMILA TRINDLE: When she heard they'd have to evacuate again, Wong couldn't believe it. Ms. WONG GUEN QUAY (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) It's crazy. The quake isn't finished, but the flood is coming. JAMILA TRINDLE: And yet they all say they'll go back. Ms. WONG GUEN QUAY (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) How could we leave? Even the migrant workers who left are coming back. It's our home. Of course if flooding destroys the houses, we'll have to leave. If not, we prefer to stay there. JAMILA TRINDLE: Wong says life will be hard, even if they can go back. They'll still have to live in tents. But they're hoping they can harvest the crops left in the fields when they fled. That's one of their biggest concerns right now. For some of them, it's all they have. And they all agree they're grateful the government is providing for them until it's safe to return. Jo Gui Ti(ph) is hoping that it's soon. He's an official for a nearby village. Jo sits tallying numbers in front of a blue tent labeled Tai Bai(ph) Village Office. Mr. JO GUI TI (Tai Bai Village Official): (Through translator) People are definitely more anxious here. Not only the farmers, but also the officials are quite anxious. We really hope that the people can return to their homes as soon as possible. You know, inside the tent it's too hot so it's hard to do anything in there. JAMILA TRINDLE: He says his village was one of the first to be evacuated, so they've been here for ten days and the financial loss in terms of crops keeps mounting. As the women around her voice their anxieties, Wong Guen Cheun(ph) tries to put things in perspective. Ms. WONG GUEN CHUEN (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) Of course we're very anxious about staying here too long. Our crops are still in the fields and we can't harvest them. But most importantly we're safe. That's the point. Life is the most important. JAMILA TRINDLE: For NPR news, I'm Jamila Trindle in Sichuan province.

China's devastating earthquake in May left almost 70,000 dead and five million homeless. Thousands of the displaced people are now being evacuated again as rivers clogged with debris threaten to overflow. One such camp is on Peach Blossom Mountain near Jiangyou.

Chinas verheerendes Erdbeben im Mai forderte fast 70,000 Tote und fünf Millionen Obdachlose. Tausende Vertriebene werden nun wieder evakuiert, da mit Schutt verstopfte Flüsse zu überlaufen drohen. Ein solches Lager befindet sich auf dem Peach Blossom Mountain in der Nähe von Jiangyou.

中国五月份的大地震造成近7万人死亡，500万人无家可归。数千名流离失所的人现在再次被疏散，因为被瓦砾堵塞的河流有漫溢的危险。这样的营地就在江油附近的桃花山上。

ALEX CHADWICK, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Alex Chadwick. MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand. MADELEINE BRAND, host: In a few minutes, writer Pete Hamill remembers the last day of his friend Robert F. Kennedy. ALEX CHADWICK, host: First, John McCain, yes, John McCain - the other presidential candidate. He gave a major speech last night. That's what his campaign called it. He was in the city of New Orleans. Here he is. Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona): I strongly disagreed with the Bush administration's mismanagement of the war in Iraq. I called for the change in strategy. I called for the change in strategy that is now, at last, succeeding, where the previous strategy had failed miserably. Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona): I was criticized. I was criticized for doing so by Republicans. I was criticized by Democrats. I was criticized by the press. But I don't answer to them. I answer to you. ALEX CHADWICK, host: John McCain, the candidate of change but the right kind of change, he said last night. Former presidential speechwriter David Frum joins us by phone in Barcelona, where he is today. David, what did you think of that speech? Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Well, the McCain speech as a document was just terrific. It hit every point that John McCain needed to hit. And it did something very subtle. While paying lots of compliments to Barack Obama personally, it dealt with the age issue that Obama subtlety raises against John McCain all the time by complimenting him on his half century of service to the country. John McCain raised it by saying, well, Barack Obama may be young, but his ideas are old. ALEX CHADWICK, host: I heard him say, it's surprising to hear a young man turn to the past for failed ideas. Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Exactly. Now, the only thing that could have made the speech better is if we lived in an age where people absorbed political oratory from the newspaper because when you read the speech, it's just a perfect document. Unfortunately, we've invented radio and television and people hear it and see it, and it was not delivered with the kind of power and conviction that a speech so powerful and conviction-filled ought to have been delivered with. ALEX CHADWICK, host: So as you look ahead at the campaign, how is that going to play into things? Senator McCain is a - enormously sympathetic political figure for many, many Americans, but as an orator, as someone who has to get up and excite a crowd, he's not a match as a candidate for Senator Obama. Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): No, but he really doesn't need to be. I mean, I have a very simple map of what I think is happening in this election. The country is ready for a change and is ready to sweep out the incumbent party, the Republicans, if the alternative is acceptable. And the great question over the rest of the election is, is the alternative acceptable? And John McCain is John McCain. He is very much a known quantity. Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): They know he was right about the war, and they know he got the tactics right. The surge was his idea. They know he is not on top of this economic issue and that's a problem, but he's known, and they respect his integrity and his record. Now you have this other candidate who is much less known and then you have this third force, Hillary Clinton, who I thought last night was sort of vowing to conduct a guerilla warfare campaign - we've lost the main battles, but I'm going to lead my band of party fighters up in to the hills and the war continues. And depending on how destructive she is, she may play a major part in convincing the country that the alternative to the incumbent is unacceptable, or at least impossible. ALEX CHADWICK, host: You write in the National Review online today that she may be campaigning for the vice presidency and if she is, that Senator Obama would find it almost impossible to say no, but very inadvisable to say yes. Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Look, Mitt Romney is campaigning for the vice presidency. He's going around the country. He's making speeches. He's saying nice things about John McCain. Hillary Clinton is doing a little bit more than that. She's got 2,000 delegates or thereabouts. She is delivering a speech - I'm not giving up. Now, the question she is posing to Obama is, nice little convention you are going to have there in Denver, it would be a true misfortune if it were to be ruined by a whole series of challenges over credentials of Michigan and Florida. Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): I mean, I could turn this thing into the worst convention since the Democratic convention of 1968. Would you like me to do that? If not, you'd better think about ways to make me happy. This is not campaigning for the vice presidency. This is putting a pistol to the man's head and - so, it's not an abstract question for Obama. ALEX CHADWICK, host: You know, this strikes me, David, we called you to talk about John McCain, and here we are still talking about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Maybe if they go on, Senator McCain will never get any attention and it will just be them. Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): But this election really is about them. I really do think there is very little the Republicans can do to win this election. But there is a great deal the Democrats can do to lose it and so far, they are doing many of those things. ALEX CHADWICK, host: David Frum, a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and he writes a column for National Review online. David, thank you again. Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Thank you.

Former George W. Bush speechwriter David Frum says John McCain's major speech on Iraq was a "perfect document," but its impact was dulled by a less-than-powerful delivery. Frum, a American Enterprise Institute fellow and columnist for the National Review Online, also discusses a Clinton-Obama ticket.

Der frühere Redenschreiber von George W. Bush, David Frum, sagt, John McCains große Rede über den Irak sei ein „perfektes Dokument“ gewesen, aber seine Wirkung sei durch eine weniger starke Rede abgeschwächt worden. Frum, Forscher des American Enterprise Institute und Kolumnist für den Nationale Kommentar Online, diskutiert auch eine Clinton-Obama-Vereinigung.

前小布什总统的演讲稿撰写人大卫·弗鲁姆表示，麦凯恩就伊拉克问题的重要讲话是一份“完美的公文”，但由于他的措辞不够有力，所以影响不大。美国企业研究所的研究员弗鲁姆是《国家在线评论》的专栏作家，他还讨论了克林顿和奥巴马之间的竞争。

MADELEINE BRAND, host: From NPR News, this is Day to Day. MADELEINE BRAND, host: Finally, some relief from those relentless rise in oil prices. The price of a barrel of crude is now more than $10 below last month's record highs, but some industries are finding that the damage has already been done. They're making some big changes in the way they do business. Joining us now is Marketplace's Bob Moon. Bob, first, why are oil prices falling now? BOB MOON: Well, hallelujah, Madeleine, crude does keep dropping. It's been trading at around $122 a barrel today. Compare that to the record high we saw just two weeks ago, when oil hit a record of $135.09a barrel. Some of this is driven by signals from the Fed, that it's through cutting interest rates for now. That could help shore up the value of the dollar, and that could help stabilize oil prices since most oil is priced in dollars. BOB MOON: But the big factor in today's price decline is the latest word that we've gotten from the Energy Department on gasoline demand. It says that there was a sharp fall-off last week, and demand's been declining over the past four weeks, really, by almost one and a half percent. That's helped push gasoline inventories up by almost 3 million barrels. Now that's more than three times the increase than analysts were generally expecting. MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, if there is more gas, does that mean that the prices will go down? BOB MOON: Well, not necessarily right away. The average price for regular gas right now across the country has now hit a record of 3.98 a gallon. Many analysts think that's likely to hit four bucks in the coming days. Of course here in California, we're already paying well over that amount. MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, what about these problems that the high oil prices are causing for certain businesses? What's happening? BOB MOON: Well, the airline industry is really struggling with the cost of doing business and just today, we've gotten word from United that they're going to make aggressive moves to cope with fuel prices. They are cutting 1,100 more jobs, and United is going to ground 70 more of its fuel guzzlers. That means it's mothballing its entire fleet now of 94 Boeing 737s along with six 747s. And United's going to be cutting its mainline domestic capacity by up to 18 percent in the next year. And then move over to the auto industry. another sign of these belt-tightening times. The Ford F -series pick-up truck, it's been the best-selling vehicle in America for the past 17 years. Well, last month, it wasn't. The Honda Civic and the Accord and Toyota's Camry and Corolla all outsold Ford's pick-up. And then just yesterday, GM said it would be closing down some SUV plants. It's retooling to meet shifting consumer demands. MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, is this temporary or long term, do you think, these changes? BOB MOON: Well, analysts and industry officials are telling us that these are fundamental changes in the ways these companies are going to be doing business. Here's how one auto market analyst puts it. He says he's never known the market to change this much, this quickly, in his lifetime. MADELEINE BRAND, host: Wow. Thank you, Bob. Bob Moon of Public Radio's daily business show, Marketplace.

United Airlines announces plans to lay off about 1,000 workers and ground some planes. And for the first time in 17 years, imported compact cars last month outsold Ford F-series pickups. Marketplace's Bob Moon discusses the sea change in the U.S. economy.

United Airlines kündigt Pläne an, etwa 1.000 Mitarbeiter zu entlassen und einige Flugzeuge stillzulegen. Und zum ersten Mal seit 17 Jahren übertrafen die importierten Kleinwagen im letzten Monat die Pickups der Ford F-Serie. Bob Moon von Marketplace erörtert den Wandel in der US-Wirtschaft.

美联航宣布计划裁员约1000人，并停飞部分飞机。进口紧凑型轿车上个月的销量17年来首次超过了福特F系列皮卡。《市场》杂志的鲍勃·穆恩讨论了美国经济的巨变。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It's time now for our series Hanging On, where we take a look at the economic pressures of American life. This week, we're looking at the minimum wage because it's on its way up to $15 an hour in California and New York, which is an unprecedented wage bump at the state level. And it's going to have an effect both on workers and employers. NPR's Hansi Lo Wang has more. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Shopping these days is a little easier on Edica Reese's wallet. She works as a cashier at a McDonald's in New York City, where the minimum wage is on the rise. EDICA REESE: It's helping. I guess I can get more essentials. Before, I couldn't get what I needed. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Sometimes she would have to ask neighbors for toilet paper when she ran out. But now she and other fast-food workers in the city are making at least 10.50 an hour. That's set to go up to $12 an hour at the end of the year. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: And that means she can afford to keep up her own stock of toiletries. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Are you finished shopping? EDICA REESE: Yes, I am. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: But it's going to be a while before the minimum wage finally hits the planned $15 an hour. That's because the wage hikes in New York state and California are being phased in with small bumps every year. Reese says 15 an hour would make a big difference for her and her 3-year-old daughter. EDICA REESE: I guess I could pay my bills on time instead of waiting for the next check to come and the next check. I live check to check still. I need to save a little bit more money, you know? HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: For a full-time worker, a year's salary at 15 an hour, before taxes, adds up to just over $31,000. And some employers say they're not sure how they're going to afford it, including Kurt Samuels. He owns Family's Pots and Grill, a Jamaican restaurant in Mount Vernon, N.Y., where, at 5:30 in the morning, he starts making... KURT SAMUELS: Brown stew chicken, curry goat, oxtail, and soon I'll have some jerk chicken ready. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: This is all for the lunch rush? KURT SAMUELS: For the lunch rush. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Samuels has one part-time employee who helps take orders. She's currently making the minimum wage, and he says when it goes up... KURT SAMUELS: It's going to be hard, you know? Maybe her hours most likely going to be cut, you know, 'cause the end of the day, got to pay the rent, pay the bills, the gas, light, insurance. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: He recently raised prices, but he's worried about losing customers if he does it again. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: A few blocks away, Miesha Stokley is trying to figure out how to keep staffing her cupcake shop. She has one minimum-wage worker who helps with baking. MIESHA STOKLEY: She's definitely worth minimum wage, so I can't argue with that. I just have to, you know, work harder so we can make more money and I'll be able to pay. But I don't argue with it because it's expensive to live in New York. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: For now, Stokley's putting more hours in herself at Cupcake Cutie Boutique. MIESHA STOKLEY: I work nights as a nurse. So I'm here in the morning and the afternoon, and then I go to work at night. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: So when do you sleep? MIESHA STOKLEY: I barely sleep (laughter). HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: It's part of the pressure many other small-business owners are facing in cities, including Seattle and Washington, D.C., where the minimum wage is also rising to $15 an hour. But lawmakers and economists are paying extra attention to the wage bumps in New York state and California. LINDA BARRINGTON: For most economists, this is untrodden territory. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Linda Barrington heads Cornell University's Institute for Compensation Studies. She says it's hard to predict how raising the minimum wage at the state level will impact New York and California's economies. That's because past studies have not looked at increases this big and that affect this many people. Besides workers and employers, though, she says we should keep an eye on how these wage hikes will affect prices. LINDA BARRINGTON: The more that businesses can pass it along to consumers, the less it's going to negatively affect employment. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Those consumers, of course, include minimum-wage workers. That's partly why some critics of minimum-wage hikes say increases are not effective tools for reducing income inequality. Still, Barrington adds, any increase will touch not only fast-food chains and other large-scale industries but also those on the smaller scale, like families hiring a home health care worker. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: For Edica Reese's family, though, it's a change that can't come soon enough. She lives in a public housing development in Harlem, where she pays $300 a month for a small studio apartment she shares with her daughter, Kayleene. EDICA REESE: And you like the fight for 15, right? KAYLEENE: Uh-huh. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Kayleene went to rallies with her mother, where she and other fast-food workers protested for minimum wage increases. EDICA REESE: What do you say? KAYLEENE: What do you want? Fifteen. When do you want it? Now. We don't get it, shut it down. EDICA REESE: Yay. UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Yay. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Workers in Arizona, Colorado, Maine and Washington are also calling to raise their state's minimum wages, though to a few dollars shy of 15. Those hikes will be on the ballot on November 8. HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Hansi Lo Wang, NPR News, New York.

Minimum wages are on their way to $15 an hour in New York and California. Workers look forward to the bump. But some small businesses are bracing for a hit to their bottom line.

In New York und Kalifornien sind die Mindestlöhne auf dem Weg zu 15 Dollar pro Stunde. Arbeiter freuen sich auf die Erhöhung. Aber einige kleine Unternehmen müssen sich jedoch auf einen Einbruch ihres Gewinns einstellen.

纽约和加州的最低工资正在逼近每小时15美元。工人们期待着这次突破。但是，一些小企业正准备承受对其底线的冲击。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: A couple of weeks ago, some residents of Coudersport, Pa., got some strange packages delivered to their homes with flyers inside them from the Ku Klux Klan. Coudersport is a small town of about 2,500 people in the northern part of Pennsylvania. Jaimi Hajzus grew up there. And she lives a couple of hours away now, but she got all kinds of concerned messages from friends about these packages. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So she teamed up with Coudersport resident Joe Leschner who started a Facebook group to gather information and help fight the KKK's presence in that town. Jaimi Hajzus joins us now from Franklin, Pa. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome to the program. JAIMI HAJZUS: Hi. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what did the fliers say specifically? JAIMI HAJZUS: It said something like, are you concerned about what's going on in town? - and something like, you can sleep tonight because the KKK is watching. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So it was some kind of recruitment tool? JAIMI HAJZUS: I think so. I don't think that they were trying to make people feel safer. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is there a history of Klan activity in that town or in that area? JAIMI HAJZUS: Unfortunately, yes. There's a little bit of history there. When I was growing up in Coudersport in the 1990s, a man named Augusts Christ lived there and was active in the white supremacy movement. He would often harass anti-racist church leaders, neighbors and community members. We saw more activity through the 1990s, where people from out of town were coming in town to gather for these white supremacist events. August Christ then moved out of Potter County around 1999. You know, we had kind of 16 - 15, 16 years of peace and quiet in Coudersport. And then - and now this. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So how did residents respond when they got these things? JAIMI HAJZUS: People are upset. This isn't the sort of thing that we, as a small town, want to be known for. It is primarily white town, and we would like to be known for hunting and fishing. And we have an ice mine and other touristy-type attractions. And I think we've worked really hard to overcome this negative press (laughter). So it's disheartening to have it come back. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You said it's a predominantly white town. Are there African-Americans or other minority families who live there? And have you reached out to them to understand how they're processing this? JAIMI HAJZUS: There are some. And actually, Joe Leschner took up the cause because he realized that members of his own family were feeling scared and threatened. Joe's wife is from Jamaica. And she felt scared, and he didn't like that at all. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Facebook group that you guys have started is called Twin Tiers for Racial Equality. How are you using the space, and what's your goal? JAIMI HAJZUS: We want to send a message that this hateful rhetoric is not welcome in our town. But also, we're trying to start a movement about saying things out loud to other white people. So white people need to stop talking the talk and start walking the walk in terms of how we behave towards our black and brown friends and neighbors, beginning with the words that we use and how we behave in our daily lives with other white people and including how we vote. JAIMI HAJZUS: A big part of our campaign is this hashtag, #sayitoutloud, which means that we confront racism in real time right away when we see it or hear it. So one of our most important jobs as white allies is to confront our white friends and families when they are being racist. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There have been reports of similar packages, like the ones that were delivered to the residents of Coudersport, these things showing up at people's houses across the country. Are you hearing from a lot of people outside Pennsylvania who found your Facebook group? JAIMI HAJZUS: Yes, actually. We started hearing from people in Kansas and in other places, mostly sort of intensely rural small towns where there might be literally one or two people. But they've decided to take up this cause and try and threaten and harass their friends and neighbors. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jaimi, have you gotten any threats as a result of this work? JAIMI HAJZUS: No. The thing that I experience the most, honestly, in this kind of activism, in this kind of work, is silence. This is why I really need for our white people to start talking and need them to start speaking up. You know, they'll tell me that it's a political issue. It's not a political issue. The rhetoric that's being flung around right now is unacceptable, and that needs to be said loudly. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jaimi Hajzus is co-founder of a Facebook group out of Pennsylvania called Twin Tiers for Racial Equality. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jaimi, thanks so much for talking with us. JAIMI HAJZUS: Thank you.

Jaimi Hajzus was alarmed to learn that KKK fliers were dropped on lawns in her hometown of Coudersport, Pa. She tells NPR's Rachel Martin of a Facebook campaign to counter the hate group.

Jaimi Hajzus war alarmiert, als sie erfuhr, dass KKK-Flugblätter in ihrer Heimatstadt Coudersport, Pennsylvania, auf den Rasen abgeworfen wurden. Sie erzählt Rachel Martin von NPR von einer Facebook-Kampagne, um der Hassgruppe entgegenzuwirken.

贾米·哈族斯得知3K传单被扔到了家乡宾夕法尼亚州考德斯波特的草坪上，感到非常震惊。她告诉NPR的瑞秋·马丁，Facebook发起了一场对抗仇恨团体的活动。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How big of a difference does three weeks make? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, three weeks ago, federal sentences for crack cocaine were much tougher. Then, new guidelines from the U.S. Sentencing Commission took effect, bringing the penalties more in line with what some advocates say is fair. But what about people already serving their sentences? Are those too lengthy? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, the commission is now considering whether to reduce prison terms for thousands of people in jail for crack cocaine offenses. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Later on the show, we'll speak with someone who opposes retroactive resentencing. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But first, Mark Mauer. He's executive director of the Sentencing Project and he thinks that convicts already serving sentences should get theirs reduced, which means some would be let out of jail. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Hi. Thanks. Good to be here. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, explain this. A person arrested for crack cocaine offense on October 31st, a federal offense, would get a different sentence from someone who got theirs on November 1st? Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Exactly. You know, the crack cocaine laws go back to the mid-1980s and punish crack cocaine offenses far more harshly than powder cocaine. And the U.S. Sentencing Commission, recognizing this disparity, has modified the sentences somewhat, but for people sentenced as November 1st. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): So, essentially, someone who is sentenced on October 31st might have gotten a 10-year sentence for crack offense. A similar person sentenced on November 1st is now getting roughly a nine-year sentence. And the question is, is there any justification for making those different or should we make it retroactive to people who've already been sentenced and are sitting in prison right now. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: As part of this whole debate over crack and powder cocaine, these reduced sentences or the reduced guidelines would still have much higher penalties for crack cocaine, correct? Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Far higher. One quick example. There's a guy in prison right now by the name of Willie Mays Aikens. He's a former baseball star for the Kansas City Royals, played in the World Series, subsequently became addicted to drugs and started selling drugs and sold to an undercover agent. He was convicted of a crack cocaine offense and is in the middle of doing about a 20-year sentence. If this proposal goes through, to make it retroactive, he'll have about three years, cut-off in his sentence. He'll still do 17 o 18 years. If he'd been convicted of selling powder cocaine, he would have gotten a sentence about two and a half years only. That's the magnitude of the difference we're looking at. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So the Sentencing Commission is taking this up now. When could we expect a decision? Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Well, some people have heard that they may make a decision in January. They can do it at anytime, so it's likely within the next month or two. They had a full day of hearings this week, heard very broad variety of views. So I think all the information that they need to look at this issue is certainly before them right now. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How does race play into this convictions over crack and powder cocaine? Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Well, race is fundamental to the whole policy. You know, back in 1986 when these laws were adopted by Congress, we have this relatively new drug that had come on the scene, crack cocaine. And the image of that - the crack user, whether or not it was entirely correct - was that of a young black male, sometimes young black female. I mean, we have cover of Newsweek magazine and similar - lots of stories on television. That was the image that came across. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): And the Congress passed the crack cocaine mandatory sentencing laws, really, in record time. There are virtually no hearings held, no discussion about - with experts in the field who knew something about addiction or treatment. And it's hard to escape the fact or the conclusion that the rush to judgment had something to do with the perception of the person who is being affected. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): It's intriguing to note that the Sentencing Commission has previously made retroactive changes for other drug sentencing laws, particularly for marijuana and LSD, where they change the law that made it retroactive. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Those changes primarily benefited white defendants. Here, the estimates are 85 percent of the people who would benefit from crack retroactivity would be African-Americans. So it's a very stark contrast before us. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Do you, in your mind - although, you're advocating this - see any downside to potentially releasing people who have already been convicted under existing laws? Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Well, you know, there are some people who make the charge that -well, we'd be releasing dangerous people out in the community. Some of these people have had weapons involved in their offense. Some of them have been convicted also of obstruction of justice and the like. That's equally true for people convicted of powder cocaine or a heroin offenses or anything else, and yet, we routinely let people out of prison every day. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Many of the people sentenced for these crack cocaine offenses will have served 10, 15, even 20 years or more before they're let out. And so if we can't come up with some way to provide these people with job skills, with life prospects after that many years in prison, that points to a much more fundamental problem. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): It seems to me they've paid far too much in terms of punishment for the crimes they committed. The question now is how do we prepare them for release to live at more constructive lifestyle when they get out. And I think we have an opportunity to take advantage of that now. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Marc, thank you so much. Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Thanks for having me. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Marc Mauer is executive director of The Sentencing Project. He was at NPR's Washington, D.C. headquarters. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Next, we'll hear what law enforcement thinks about the proposal.

The U.S. Sentencing Commission is considering whether to reduce the federal prison sentences of thousands of people in jail for crack cocaine offenses. Marc Mauer, executive director of The Sentencing Project, is pushing for retroactive resentencing.

Die United States Sentencing Commission erwägt, die Bundesgefängnisstrafen von Tausenden von Menschen, die wegen Crack-Kokaindelikten inhaftiert sind, zu reduzieren. Marc Mauer, Geschäftsführer von The Sentencing Project, drängt auf eine rückwirkende Neubestrafung.

美国量刑委员会正在考虑是否减轻对数千名可卡因罪犯的联邦监禁刑罚。量刑项目的执行董事马克·莫尔，正在推动追溯重判。

ALEX CHADWICK, host: Now, from the Unger Report, a question, are you going through changes in your life? Maybe a new job, a new relationship? How about just a different toothpaste. Our humorist, Brian Unger, says you might be evolving. BRIAN UNGER: Oprah Winfrey is on the cover of Black Enterprise Magazine this month. Now you probably remember when she was on the cover back in 1986, and you're asking, hey, Oprah, what has changed since then? Well, the answer according to Oprah, nothing. In 22 years, Oprah says nothing about her has changed. In Oprah's world, there's still a Camaro in her driveway. Kurt Waldheim is president of Austria, and bacon is $1.75 per pound. Nothing has changed. BRIAN UNGER: But what she does say is very interesting. Oprah says, quote, "I've evolved." Oprah has evolved right into her brand new yet to be launched very own cable TV network, called "OWN" which is going to be on the air very soon because an hour of Oprah a day is just not enough. BRIAN UNGER: So how do we know, or how does Oprah know she's evolving? And what will she look like to archeologists in one million years, when they find petrified Oprah in a forest, will they say, "she was very evolved?" Is evolving painful? More importantly, who can evolve and who can't? Well, I can tell you that I'm pretty sure I'm evolving too. Into a new more expensive apartment next week and it hurts. Now I'm not changing addresses, I'm evolving into a new address because I got robbed at my old address. Two gang bangers standing in my driveway with all my stuff in their van caused me to evolve. BRIAN UNGER: Now Oprah and I are not the only two people who are evolving. Other big names say they have evolved. Like Hillary Clinton on gay issues. Senator HILLARY CLINTON (Democrat, New York): Well I am very much in favor of civil unions with full equality of benefits. BRIAN UNGER: George Bush's reasons for being in Iraq have evolved, or at least mutated. That annoying man on NBC, Jim Kramer. Mr. JIM KRAMER (Host, "Mad Money"): He has no idea. BRIAN UNGER: He says he evolved when it comes to buying stocks. Mr. JIM KRAMER (Host, "Mad Money"): They no nothing. BRIAN UNGER: And the pop singer, Ciara. She says she evolved too. I don't even know who she is and she's evolved. This is what she sounds like now. Ms. CIARA: (Singing) Try and BRIAN UNGER: And this is what she sounds like two seconds later. Ms. CIARA: (Singing) Watching me... BRIAN UNGER: Her music actually gets worse the longer you listen to it. That is evolutionary. So next time someone comes up to you and says hey, you've changed. You say, hey, oh no, I've evolved. Thanks, Oprah. And that is today's Unger Report. I'm Brian Unger. BRAND: Speaking of evolving, you can take your Unger with you as a podcast. The Unger Report, as well as this entire show is available as a podcast, go to npr.org/podcast.

Oprah Winfrey isn't changing — she's "evolving," the media mogul recently told a magazine. And our humorist Brian Unger is following suit as he examines the path of personal evolution.

Oprah Winfrey verändert sich nicht – sie \"entwickelt sich\", sagte der Medienmogul kürzlich einem Magazin. Und unser Humorist Brian Unger folgt diesem Beispiel, wenn er den Weg der persönlichen Evolution untersucht.

奥普拉·温弗瑞并没有改变，这位媒体大亨最近在接受杂志采访时表示，她是在“进化”。我们的幽默作家布莱恩·安格也紧随其后，探索个人进化之路。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is at war with the National Enquirer and its parent company, AMI. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. Bezos laid out this explosive allegation in a post on the blog site Medium last night. In it, Bezos says the tabloid's owner, David Pecker, was trying to blackmail him. In the post, he writes, quote, "rather than capitulate to extortion and blackmail, I've decided to publish exactly what they sent me despite the personal cost and embarrassment they threaten." DAVID GREENE, HOST: Now, Bezos says the company was threatening to release intimate photos of him in an effort to stop him from finding out how the National Enquirer had obtained his private photos and text messages documenting an extramarital affair. Bezos also implies here that the reason for the blackmail is that he is the owner of the Washington Post, which has been dogged in its reporting about President Trump. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So much to talk about here. NPR's Uri Berliner is here to help us understand this story. Hi, Uri. URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Hey, Rachel. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So David mentioned there some intimate photos revealing an extramarital affair. Can you tell us more about what exactly the National Enquirer had on Bezos? URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Yeah. They said they had a series of photographs of Bezos and Lauren Sanchez, the woman that he had been having an affair with, very sexually suggestive, lewd photographs that they were threatening to publish unless Bezos backed off from his investigation into how AMI, the parent company of the National Enquirer, obtained those photographs. And that's - he really wanted to find out how those personal texts and photos leaked. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. So in this long Medium post, Bezos just publishes some of the emails that he says are from AMI. What do they say? URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Yeah. So Bezos, you know, basically says, OK, you've got these photos on me. I've got these emails from you, from officials from AMI. And basically, they're saying that they want Bezos to stop investigating. One of them from an AMI official proposes some terms to end the dispute with Bezos. It says it will agree not to publish any of the texts or photos. But in exchange, Bezos must say that AMI's coverage of his affair was not politically motivated. The other email described some of those suggestive photos that we've been talking about. URI BERLINER, BYLINE: I reached out to AMI for comment. I've not heard back from them. But Bezos in his post says there is a political motivation here. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, let's just spend a second talking about that. There are all kinds of political threads to this, right? As we noted, like, David Pecker is a good friend of Donald Trump's. And Jeff Bezos is the owner of the Washington Post, a paper that has been pretty critical and aggressive in the reporting over Donald Trump, right? URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Absolutely. The Post has been very aggressive in its reporting of Trump. Trump has also feuded with Amazon, the company that Jeff Bezos founded. He claims they get all kinds of breaks. They're not paying their fair share of taxes. So this has been an ongoing feud between between President Trump and Bezos, who owns the Post and founded Amazon. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And remind us about the National Enquirer's connection to the investigations into Donald Trump because David Pecker was granted immunity in the investigation into Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen because Pecker was involved into those illicit payments to Karen McDougal, right? URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Right. The National Enquirer acknowledged paying hush money to a former Playboy model who said she had an affair with Trump. She was paid 150,000 during the 2016 campaign. And so that's really what happened there. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: He also refers to his ownership of the Post as being a complexifier for him, which is an odd word. But, I mean, what more does he say about his role as the owner of the Post? URI BERLINER, BYLINE: He says, (laughter) yeah, it's a complexifier, difficult, but he has no regrets about owning the Post. And it's - he says it's - when he looks back on his life, owning the Post and supporting its mission is something he'll remain proud of at age 90. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. NPR's Uri Berliner for us. Thanks, Uri. URI BERLINER, BYLINE: You're welcome. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The U.S. Supreme Court has blocked the state of Louisiana from implementing a restrictive new abortion law before then ruling on its constitutionality. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yes. So this ruling right now puts a temporary stay on the law, which means clinics that perform abortions can keep operating for the time being until the court does rule on the constitutionality. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Supreme Court reporter Amy Howe is with us to talk through the ruling and the dissent because there was some. Amy, thanks for being here. AMY HOWE: Hey, good morning. Thanks for having me. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: First, before we talk about the implications, what exactly would this law do in Louisiana? AMY HOWE: A lot of it depends on exactly how it plays out. And that is part of Justice Brett Kavanaugh's dissent, which we can talk about. But the opponents of the law say that if the law's allowed to go into effect, there'd only be one doctor to provide abortions in the early stages of pregnancy and none at all for women seeking abortions after 17 weeks of pregnancy. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You mentioned Justice Kavanaugh's dissent. What did he say? AMY HOWE: So he was the only one who wrote to explain why he would have denied the stay that the opponents of the law were seeking. He would have allowed the law to go into effect. There were four justices altogether - Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch in addition to Kavanaugh all said they would deny the stay and allow the law to go into effect. AMY HOWE: But what Justice Brett Kavanaugh, the court's newest justice, wrote is that a central legal question in the case is whether this requirement that doctors who perform abortions in Louisiana have to have admitting privileges will impose an undue burden, which is the legal standard for whether a law violates the Constitution, on a woman's right to have an abortion depends on a factual question, whether the doctors in this case can actually get admitting privileges. AMY HOWE: And that's disputed. The District Court in this case, the trial court, said that they wouldn't be able to, and the Court of Appeals said that they would be able to. And so what Justice Kavanaugh said is instead of putting the law on hold and speculating about this, let's figure it out during the 45-day transition period because if the doctors can get admitting privileges, there's no undue burden, and the law should be allowed to stand. If they can't, he said, they can come back to court. AMY HOWE: And this would be faster than doing it the way the court's going to do it, which ultimately probably will wind up with a decision sometime in the summer of 2020. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Interesting. AMY HOWE: Yeah. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Let me ask you about how it broke, though - 5 to 4. John Roberts, the chief justice, sided with the liberals. Was that surprising? AMY HOWE: It was, yes. To be sure, the court was not writing on a blank slate because in 2016, the Supreme Court had struck down a similar law from Texas. But in that case, it was Justice Anthony Kennedy who joined the court's former liberal justices, and the chief justice, John Roberts, was actually in dissent. We don't know what his reasoning was to vote this - to vote with the four more liberal justices last night. But we do know that he's an institutionalist. So even if he might believe that the law is constitutional in a vacuum, perhaps this Texas case from three years ago says otherwise. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Amy Howe reports on the Supreme Court for the SCOTUSblog. Amy, thanks for being here this morning. We appreciate it. AMY HOWE: Thanks for inviting me. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The will-he-or-won't-he debate is over. Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker goes before the House Judiciary Committee today. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. House Democrats have been eager to press Whitaker on his interactions with President Trump and his oversight of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation, even threatening to subpoena him if he didn't show up. Whether he'll answer their more sensitive questions about the investigation is, of course, another matter, but we'll find out. House Democrats are feeling emboldened with their new majority. This is House Oversight Chair Elijah Cummings on Wednesday at a hearing on strengthening ethics rules for the executive branch. ELIJAH CUMMINGS: The American people gave this Congress and this committee a mandate to restore our democracy and clean up our government. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. For more on House - on how House Democrats are using their newfound power, we've got NPR congressional reporter Kelsey Snell in the studio. Good morning, Kelsey. KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Good morning. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So first off, let's talk about Matt Whitaker. The acting AG is going to go before the Judiciary Committee today. What are they going to ask him? KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Well, first of all, this happened after a week of kind of back-and-forth. Whitaker originally threatened not to show up because Democrats on the committee were essentially threatening to subpoena him. But he agreed to appear last night. And Democrats say they want to ask him specifically about the Russia investigation. KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: They are going to ask lots of questions. They're probably going to touch on things like the child separation policy or potentially about immigration and health care. But this will be largely about the Russia investigation, how much people know about it and how much the - inside of the attorney general's office, how much they're talking to the president about that. And it'll be public, so we'll watch that happen. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This hearing with Whitaker comes at the end of a week where Democrats started to follow through on campaign promises to investigate the president, to investigate his administration. One of those promises - Democrats have pledged to look into Trump's tax returns. Is that going to be part of this oversight push? KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: It absolutely is. We just don't know how fast it's going to move. Just the other day, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said that she was - wanting people to be cautious. She wants people to be careful about this because sensitive tax returns are a really serious thing, and releasing them quickly has a lot of potential implications and potential legal implications if the president decides not to comply. KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: But, you know, it's important to think about this in the context of broader oversight that Democrats want to do. They are moving forward from the shutdown. And they want to spend their time making sure that they make good on promises to investigate this president, and this week was all about that. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is - does that jeopardize their other agenda items? Because they're not just about investigating the president, right? KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: They say that it doesn't. They want to do other things. They want to make health care more affordable. They want to have conversations about climate change. But really, when you are - Democrats are the - only controlling the House. They don't have power over the Senate or the White House. So it's hard to legislate. Doing these investigations allows them to put their stamp on everything - on guns, on child separation, like we talked about, and even on the environment. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Meanwhile, I can't let you go without asking about the border security talks because there is this panel of lawmakers who are trying to come up with a border security agreement to avert yet another government shutdown. Are they making progress? KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: We are told that things are looking good and that they are negotiating in good faith, but a deal is not in hand yet. And I've been told by some people privately that they think that they might need a little bit more time than just next week. So this could get extended if they can't get a deal in the next couple of days. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The deadline's the 15, right? KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: The 15. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. We'll be following it. NPR's Kelsey Snell for us this morning. Thanks, Kelsey. KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Thank you.

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is accusing the National Enquirer's parent company of extortion. Also, Amy Howe of SCOTUSblog discusses the Court's decision on Louisiana's abortion law.

Amazon-Chef Jeff Bezos wirft der Muttergesellschaft von Nationales Ermitteln Erpressung vor. Außerdem diskutiert Amy Howe von SCOTUSblog die Entscheidung des Gerichts zum Abtreibungsgesetz von Louisiana.

亚马逊首席执行官杰夫·贝佐斯指控《国家问询者报》的母公司敲诈勒索。同时，艾米·豪在美国最高法院的博客上讨论了最高法院对路易斯安那州限制堕胎法的裁决。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what's a club DJ to do when a lot of kids would rather sit at home and play video games instead of go out and dance? DJ Marshmello recently tried to solve that problem by making himself part of one of the most popular video games out there. He created an avatar of himself and staged a performance inside Fortnite. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: For those blissfully unaware, Fortnite is a virtual battlefield game played by millions around the world, often at the same time - not exactly the place you'd expect a dance party to break out. It was the first ever Fortnite concert. And as NPR's Elizabeth Blair reports, it was such a hit, we're probably going to see more. ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: A video of Marshmello's Fortnite concert has been viewed more than 20 million times on YouTube. Neon colors pulse as avatars dance, wave glow sticks and leap through the air while DJ Marshmello revs up the virtual crowd. MARSHMELLO: Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: According to the ratings company Nielsen, some 10 million people - or their avatars - attended this virtual concert. When Marshmello's concert was over, players commented, best event ever, and, better than the Super Bowl. Marshmello tweeted a video of kids dancing. UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Oh, my God. ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: This isn't the first time musicians and video games have converged. Michael Jackson... ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: ...And David Bowie both appeared in games in the 1990s. DAVID BOWIE: The survival of your soul is at stake. ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: But back then, they played together in the living room, not in a massive virtual arena. Today, musicians are gamers, and famous gamers are into music. Marcie Allen is president of the music and sports agency MAC Presents. MARCIE ALLEN: It's about being in the center of culture. And with music and gaming, that's where these kids are sitting, you know, the generation Z and then on the cusp of millennials. ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: Joost van Dreunen is managing director of SuperData Research, a part of Nielsen. He says there's an interesting juxtaposition between the Fortnite concert and the failed Fyre Festival, an expensive music festival in the Bahamas promoted by celebrities on platforms like Instagram that never delivered on its promises. JOOST VAN DREUNEN: And then you compare that to, like, these silly kids on the fringes of the entertainment business, you know, these 14-year-olds. And they're just having a good time, and they're just sharing with their friends. And I think that that's a really interesting indicator of what's to come down the line, right? ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: For anyone worried that video games will spell the end of physical clubs and concert halls, composer and DJ Sam Spiegel says it won't happen. SAM SPIEGEL: There's something very visceral about being at a show, feeling the sub-bass hit your body and being next to people that are sweating and screaming. And, you know, at least so far, we've never been able to create anything that lets you experience music that way in the digital world. ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: And hey, maybe there's a future for radio too. Elizabeth Blair, NPR News.

What does DJ Marshmello's Fortnite concert mean for the future of music performance? The 10-minute virtual concert was one of the largest digital gatherings ever.

Was bedeutet das Fortnite-Konzert von DJ Marshmello für die Zukunft der Musikperformance? Das 10-minütige virtuelle Konzert war eine der größten digitalen Versammlungen aller Zeiten.

DJ棉花糖的《要塞英雄》 音乐会对音乐表演的未来意味着什么？这场10分钟的虚拟音乐会是有史以来最大的数字聚会之一。

ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: In 2005, Tyler Perry debuted a character whose movies have gone on to make more than $500 million. MABLEAN EPHRIAM: (As Judge Ephriam) Madea. TYLER PERRY: (As Madea) How you doing, Judge Mablean? It's good to see - oh, your is pretty, girl. Look at you. You're looking good. How you been? MABLEAN EPHRIAM: (As Judge Ephriam) You're still at it. TYLER PERRY: (As Madea) This ain't even my fault. What had happened was... MABLEAN EPHRIAM: (As Judge Ephriam) Save it. ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: That's a clip from "Diary Of A Mad Black Woman," the first of 11 Madea movies. The eleventh drops this weekend, and Tyler Perry, who plays Madea in drag, says this will be the last one in the franchise. It's called "A Madea Family Funeral." Well, to say goodbye and talk about why this character has become such a phenomenon, Lisa France joins us now. She's a senior entertainment writer for CNN Digital. Hi there. LISA FRANCE: Hey, Ari. How's it going? ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Good. So I was just browsing Rotten Tomatoes, and "Diary Of A Mad Black Woman" has a 16 percent rating. The most recent Madea film, "Boo 2! A Madea Halloween," has a 5 percent rating, but the franchise has been a huge financial success. How do you explain all of that? LISA FRANCE: Because people love to hate Madea movies. ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: (Laughter) OK. LISA FRANCE: It's kind of like a black family reunion. Like, you know someone's going to embarrass you, but you also know you're going to have a great time. So I think it's one of those things where people just don't want to admit how much they enjoy Madea films. And even if they really don't like them, they still like to hate-watch them. They make a lot of money. You don't want to be left out of the conversation when somebody is talking about the latest Madea film. ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: What is it about the character that inspires both the love and the hate? LISA FRANCE: Well, you know, Spike Lee has gone on record as saying that the films are kind of like coonery and buffoonery, as he said, that he feels like it's very stereotypical to have this angry black woman. But for many people, it also reminds you of your grandma or your auntie, you know, those people who say whatever. They use their age to their advantage to be able to, you know, curse you out or let you have it. And it's just a very divisive character because on some levels, it's very historical, but on others, it feels very stereotypical. ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: These films all have certain themes in common. There's often kind of a family narrative, sometimes a moralistic or Christian streak. Sometimes Madea does kind of - almost, like, public service announcements. This clip is from "Madea's Family Reunion." TYLER PERRY: (As Madea) When you get tired of a man hitting on you, honey, ain't nothing you can do but cook breakfast for him. Bring him into the kitchen, and get you big old pot of hot grits. And when it starts to boil like lava after he had got good and comfortable, you say good morning. Throw it right on him. LISA FRANCE: I mean, right there you have the dichotomy that is Madea - on one hand, incredibly loving, looking out for someone who's being abused but, on the other hand, also violent (laughter). So... ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Abuse is a frequent topic in a lot of these movies, which seems like a heavy subject to tackle in slapstick humor. What do you think is the value of returning to it again and again in film after film? LISA FRANCE: I think because it's one way for us to have the discussion and, in a way, try to keep it light. You know, people want to see the reality of life and African-American life and what happens in families, but they also want some levity to it. So I think by using humor, Tyler Perry has been able to open people's eyes and allow people to have the conversation which would otherwise be extremely uncomfortable to have. ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: All right, well, we're talking about this because Tyler Perry says this weekend's movie, "A Madea Family Funeral," will be the last one in the franchise. Do you believe him? LISA FRANCE: I don't. LISA FRANCE: The reason is while he says that he's tired of portraying Madea and he has a new deal with a new studio; he's using that as an opportunity to kind of leave Madea behind, these movies make so much money. And I just feel like it's going to be a Michael Jordan situation. Michael Jordan said that he was going to retire, and that was it. And then Michael Jordan turned right around and came back. So I think there's going to be a sense that at some point, Madea is going to have to come back. ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: OK, so I just want to be clear here. It seems like you're saying Tyler Perry as Madea is the Michael Jordan of film. Do I understand you correctly here? LISA FRANCE: (Laughter) Are you going to quote me on that, Ari, really? ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: I think you're on the record with that. I think we've got that on tape. America is going to hear you saying that. LISA FRANCE: I think I'm going to go ahead and stand by that because when he comes back to play again, you'll say Lisa France said it. ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Lisa France, senior entertainment writer with CNN Digital, thanks a lot. LISA FRANCE: Thank you so much, Ari.

Tyler Perry is retiring his Madea wig — the last of this major money-making movie franchise is hitting theaters this weekend with A Madea Family Funeral.

Tyler Perry zieht seine Madea-Perücke in den Ruhestand – der letzte dieser großen Geldverdiener-Filmreihe kommt dieses Wochenende mit A Madea Family Funeral in die Kinos.

泰勒·派瑞就要脱下马蒂亚的假发帽了，这个高票房电影的最后一部《黑疯婆子的葬礼》将在本周末上映。

IRA FLATOW, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Last week, a cruise ship carrying more than 4,000 people ran aground off the coast of Italy, resulting in the loss of numerous lives, not to mention damage to the ship. It struck a rocky outcropping clearly visible on the chart, tearing a gash in its hull, which leaves us wondering: How in this age of GPS, sonar, other high-tech navigational devices could such a tragedy occur? Did it veer dangerously off-course? What kind of technology does the crew of large cargo and cruise ships depend on? IRA FLATOW, HOST: Joining us to talk about this and answer some of those questions is Max van Norden. He's coordinator of the hydrographic science program in the Department of Marine Sciences at University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY. MAX VAN NORDEN: Thank you very much, Ira. I'm glad to be on your show. IRA FLATOW, HOST: You're welcome. Is this a common occurrence? MAX VAN NORDEN: Not really, not really. I mean, this is - well, this is really a case of gross stupidity. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Why do you say that? MAX VAN NORDEN: Well, because a modern navigational system, which would have been present on a ship like the Costa Concordia, would have definitely warned the crew, the bridge crew and the captain that they were - you know, had to make corrective actions. A modern navigational system, which is called an ECDIS, an electronic chart display and information system, really gives great improvement in navigational safety because, first of all, it gives great improvement in the situational awareness. It automatically plots the position of the ship, as you mentioned, with GPS. MAX VAN NORDEN: It also automatically plots the positions of other ships within its radar range to - and, from that, project, from the course and the speeds, whether there's a problem with, you know, possible collisions with other ships. It also plots what we call AIS targets, automatic information - automatic identification system targets, which every major ship today has to carry an AIS transponder after 9/11 because. And these transponders give a ship's position, its course, its speed, what cargo it carries, where it's coming from, where it's going, what flag it flies, so forth. MAX VAN NORDEN: But from the - from, say, the Concordia's AIS receiver, it could also have plotted all the AIS targets as well. So a active system gives greatly improved situational awareness of the water space the ship is going in and there to prevent collisions with other ships. MAX VAN NORDEN: And then, in addition to that, the systems allow for voyage planning, where the navigator sets out the exact track that they want to follow at each course change based upon the electronic navigational chart. And if the navigator should set out a course or a planned course in this voyage planning that takes it over a hazardous area, the active system will tell him, you can't - this is a bad track. You know, change your voyage plan to a more safer track. So it's also a great improvement in voyage planning. MAX VAN NORDEN: And then the third thing is the route monitoring part. It actually gives you warnings when you exceed the allowances for danger. In the voyage planning, you'll put in things like the ship's characteristics, its turning rate and things like that, its allowable draft. And if it gets too close - and the standoff allowances to navigational hazards, and if it exceeds those allowances, the system will give out warnings, you know? MAX VAN NORDEN: Think of the Exxon Valdez, for instance, in 1989. That accident could have been prevented with a - with an ECDIS system. But they didn't have ECDIS at that time. But if you recall, there was a third mate, an inexperienced third mate on the bridge who failed to make a critical course change. And an ECDIS system would have warned him, say, you've got to make this turn at this time. And - or as the ship was going off towards a navigational hazard, the ECDIS system would have given him a warning, saying, you're getting too close to this navigational hazard. Or a depth sounder, which is interfaced with an ECDIS system, would have told him, you're - the bottom is getting too shallow. You need to make - take corrective actions. So all these are great improvements in navigational safety that these modern electronic chart display information systems provide to the mariner. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And the location of the underwater hazards are also well known, like the rock that it hit. MAX VAN NORDEN: Well, in this case, yes. But you bring up something - there are some pitfalls to these navigational systems, particularly, I think, in my opinion, in fact, the cruise line industry because these displays, these are all very colorful, you know, computer monitors and displays MAX VAN NORDEN: ...navigational systems, particularly, I think, in my opinion, in fact, the cruise line industry, because the - these displays, these are all very colorful, you know, computer monitors and displays that sort in complacency(ph) the fact the - OK, the database for these active systems is the electronic navigational chart, and it looks very colorful as well. But in many cases that information on that chart is based on very old data. NOAA, for instance, is responsible for charting U.S. waters. MAX VAN NORDEN: I've seen the presentation where they say that 50 percent of the data on their charts were collected by hydrographic surveys before 1940, old technology. And so in areas that are well travelled by, say, container ships or tankers, whatever, these well-travelled routes are well charted. But these cruise liners, they like to go off the beaten path and show, you know, pristine areas, picturesque areas to the passengers. So they're going off the beaten path into areas that are not well surveyed. MAX VAN NORDEN: Or maybe they've been surveyed many, many years ago with old technology, even by - perhaps by Captain Cook even. But in any case, these areas in fact may not have ever been surveyed, in some cases of Alaska, where the glaciers have receded and these cruise liners going to these areas and watching these beautiful glacier areas may have never - the waters, however, may have never been surveyed. MAX VAN NORDEN: So for these cruise ships, they're going off the beaten path and putting these half-a-billion-dollar ships at some risk with the passengers, of course, by going into these areas that are not well surveyed. Even though the chart might look very fancy and colorful and - a very colorful display in this modern, integrated bridge, but that underlying data would have been collected, in many cases, with very old technology. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Mm-hmm. But the case of last week, this was not that case, was it? MAX VAN NORDEN: No, it was not. This is just really a case where - well, from my readings, the Costa Concordia had a modern navigation system, modern (unintelligible) system. It was given a number of warnings that he's getting too close, I'm sure, but I guess in his case, the captain's case, he just turned off the warnings and ignored them. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Would there not be other members of the crew on the bridge there? MAX VAN NORDEN: There would. And I was wondering why the chief mate would not have jumped in and say, Captain, you're doing, you know, you're taking the ship into dangerous waters here. But, you know, that's - I'm just speculating. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Right. So there's enough electronics on the ship to let you know, at least in that case, to let you know where you are exactly... MAX VAN NORDEN: Exactly. IRA FLATOW, HOST: ...and to let you know exactly what is around you. And it's up to you to decide whether to listen to it or not. MAX VAN NORDEN: Yes. And in the case of the Costa Concordia, of course I mentioned every large ship has to have an AIS receiver these days. Nowadays, I mean, it was constantly transmitting those AIS transmissions, and there are stations ashore that pick that up and can simulate exactly where that ship was through that whole ordeal. And in fact, there's a very good website that show – it gives some explanations of where the ship went. IRA FLATOW, HOST: What website is that? MAX VAN NORDEN: One that I saw that was really good is gcaptain.com, where they show, using the AIS data, exactly where the ship travelled. And the narrator gives very good explanation what he thought happened. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Gcaptain.com? MAX VAN NORDEN: Yes. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Let me go to the phones to Matt in Alexandria, Virginia. Hi, Matt. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY. MATT: Oh, hello. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Hi there. Go ahead. MATT: Yeah. I was curious. I used to be a second mate. And I was wondering if the voyage data recorder info had been recovered. And if so, would it ever be made public? MAX VAN NORDEN: I saw a picture of them recovering the voyage data recorder. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Is that like the recorder on an airplane when it goes down? MAX VAN NORDEN: Yes. MATT: Yeah. IRA FLATOW, HOST: So it's been recovered. And that would have the record of where - exactly where it went. MAX VAN NORDEN: Yes. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Matt, does this surprise you as a second mate? MATT: Yeah. Yes. I mean, the ships I've been on have all had one. We never had to do anything with it, I mean it was sort of a passive thing. But we were under the instructions or understanding that if something happened, it would be one of the first things recovered, and the data it records would be used to recreate what happened prior to the incident. IRA FLATOW, HOST: All right. Thanks for calling. 1-800-989-8255. Talking with Max van Norden. So you're saying that there's a lesson here about the future of cruise shipping and knowing where you are and the ancient charts that - and you were not joking that some of these go back to Captain Cook. MAX VAN NORDEN: No, I wasn't. Another example, the QE2 grounded off of Martha's Vineyards a couple of years ago. I think 1992. They went off the beaten path and grounded off on - in an area they hadn't been surveyed since 1939. So, I mean, these things happen. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And you say they go off the beaten path because the captain may want to get the passengers a special look at something or get close to a glacier in Alaska? MAX VAN NORDEN: Right. That's part of the deal for these cruise lines, to take you into picturesque, you know, pristine areas of Alaska and other areas and have the, you know, the passengers see some very beautiful scenery. But in a number of cases, these are unsurveyed or very bad or very old surveyed areas. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Mm-hmm. And the alarms could be going off in the ship, literally off the chart when they do these things. MAX VAN NORDEN: Well, you see, in that case the alarms wouldn't necessarily go off because the ship relies or the active system relies on the known data of the electronic navigational chart. And so if there's nothing to tell or nothing in the data to say that there's, you know, there's a danger, if the rocks haven't been discovered that will ground the ship, if those shoals have not been discovered, there's no - the alarms wouldn't necessarily go off. IRA FLATOW, HOST: But in the normal course of a cruise, we would expect that this is - if you stay on course, this cruise has taken - the captain and his crew have taken this trip a hundred times at least and know exactly where everything is, and they're quite safe. MAX VAN NORDEN: Right. If they follow, you know, the normal shipping lanes or have taken these cruises along that line before, then it should be safe, yes. IRA FLATOW, HOST: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. Talking with Max van Norden, who is coordinator of the Hydrographic Science Program at the University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. So what is your recommendation here, Dr. Van Norden? MAX VAN NORDEN: Well, of course one recommendation would be to, you know, follow the advice of your ecto(ph)-system and not overrule it. But the other thing is that we need, you know, more hydrographic surveys in those areas where these cruise liners are going. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah. And... MAX VAN NORDEN: Modern surveys. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And we need to have captains take less risk. MAX VAN NORDEN: Absolutely. IRA FLATOW, HOST: What is the normal sequence of an investigation that would go on now? MAX VAN NORDEN: Well, I - that's really out of my area. I, you know, I'm sure the Italian version of their coast guard would be following that investigation, and they would have to present the evidence to a maritime court of some type. And generally these things follow some sort of maritime law. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And as far as knowing where you are in the water and what's around you, would not sonar on your own ship tell you that there were these rocks right next door to you, where you're going? MAX VAN NORDEN: Well, most ships do carry a depth sounder. But in a case of a ship like the Concordia, which has a great mast behind it, it would be - they don't have the type of sonar, probably the forward-looking type of sonar that, say, a warship would have. They would have a more, you know, commercial, down-looking sonar. And there was probably no way they would detect something in time like that. They can only see a prevailing trend, say, in the bottom, but on all of a sudden type hazard that's in the way, no. They would have to depend upon the charts to tell them there's a hazard. And they need - and, of course, in this case, you need to follow the charts instead of just thinking that you could get away with what he did. IRA FLATOW, HOST: If you have the chart, you got to use it. MAX VAN NORDEN: That's correct. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And the charts that he used, there's no reason to believe these were ancient charts. And as we talked about before, he had been over - I mean this is just a normal course that this cruise liner took all the time. MAX VAN NORDEN: Well, no, not in this particular case, though. I mean in this sail-by that he did, he had done it, I believe, one time before but with slightly different headings. And so what he did was actually, you know, unauthorized and unusual. Now, what I meant was normally ships would stay, you know, farther away from an island like that on - in the normal shipping lanes. And that would've been the safe course of action. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Dr. Van Norden, thank you very much for taking time to be with us. MAX VAN NORDEN: Oh, my pleasure. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Max van Norden of Southern - University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg.

The International Maritime Organization has decreed that by 2015, all large deep sea ships will be required to carry the latest in electronic navigation equipment. But does state-of-the-art navigation technology prevent shipwrecks like last week's off the Italian coast? University of Southern Mississippi hydrographer Max van Norden talks about the technology.

Die Internationale Seeschifffahrtsorganisation hat festgelegt, dass bis 2015 alle großen Hochseeschiffe mit der neuesten elektronischen Navigationsausrüstung ausgestattet sein müssen. Aber verhindert modernste Navigationstechnik Schiffbrüche wie letzte Woche vor der italienischen Küste? Der Hydrograf der Universität von Süd-Mississippi, Max van Norden, spricht über die Technologie.

国际海事组织已经颁布法令，到 2015 年，所有大型深海船舶都必须携带最新的电子导航设备。但是最先进的航海技术能阻止上周在意大利海岸发生的沉船事故吗？南密西西比大学的水文学家马克斯范诺登谈到了这项技术。

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: If you tuned in last weekend, you may remember our conversation with Phyllis Worthy Dawkins, the president of Bennett College in Greensboro, N.C. The school, one of two remaining historically black women's colleges in the country, has been struggling financially but just pulled off an eye-popping fundraising drive. This past week, the college made its case to maintain its accreditation. Bethany Chafin of member station WFDD tells us what happened. BETHANY CHAFIN, BYLINE: Last Friday was a big day for Bennett College. It was announced that the school lost its appeal to save its accreditation. Within hours, though, Bennett revealed it was filing a lawsuit against the accrediting body, the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, or SACS. During these legal proceedings, Bennett will remain accredited. President Phyllis Worthy Dawkins says the community is experiencing mixed emotions right now. PHYLLIS WORTHY DAWKINS: The students, faculty and staff and alumni are taking it hard and rightfully so. We need to give them space to internalize that, yes, it's bad news and good news on the same day. We are accredited, and we need to give them that time to vent their frustrations. BETHANY CHAFIN, BYLINE: Bennett has been fighting the accreditation battle since 2016, when it was put on probation due to a lack of financial resources. The school has struggled with declining enrollment, and as a private institution, it's heavily dependent on incoming tuition. Instead of taking the school off of probation in December of 2018, SACS voted to remove Bennett's accreditation. The school appealed the decision. BETHANY CHAFIN, BYLINE: To strengthen its case, the college mounted a giant fundraising effort called Stand With Bennett. The campaign gained national attention and ultimately raised more than $9 million, well over the goal of 5 million. School officials also outlined other steps forward, including a five-year strategic plan. The mood was upbeat when final fundraising numbers came in. Many thought this would be enough to convince the creditors, but it wasn't. BETHANY CHAFIN, BYLINE: In Friday's decision, the appeals committee said Bennett had failed to show resources that demonstrate a stable financial base. The lawsuit doesn't come as too much of a surprise. President Phyllis Worthy Dawkins had said throughout the appeals process that if the school lost, it would pursue legal action. Board of Trustees chair and State Senator Gladys Robinson says the fight is worth it and so is a Bennett education. GLADYS ROBINSON: I know what it does for young women in terms of building self-esteem, in terms of teaching them how to move broadly across a spectrum of people and issues, et cetera. BETHANY CHAFIN, BYLINE: Meanwhile, Bennett College is seeking alternate accreditation. For NPR News, I'm Bethany Chafin in Greensboro, N.C.

Bennett College in North Carolina, a historically black college, lost its appeal to retain its accreditation, but then won a temporary reprieve after filing suit.

Das Bennett College in North Carolina, eine historische schwarze Universität, verlor seine Berufung, seine Akkreditierung zu behalten, erhielt aber nach Einreichung einer Klage eine vorübergehende Begnadigung.

北卡罗来纳州的贝内特学院是一所历史悠久的黑人学院，它在申请保留其认证资格时败诉，但在提起诉讼后获得了临时缓刑。

AILSA CHANG, HOST: In France, many summer events have been scaled back and even cancelled over security fears. One of the biggest events to be suspended this week was Europe's largest antique fair and flea market, held in the northern town of Lille. What's known as the Braderie of Lille will not take place this year, and NPR's Eleanor Beardsley visited Lille to see how people were feeling about it. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: I'm in Lille's Grand Place. The Braderie of Lille, the giant street fair, has been going on here since the Middle Ages. I always wanted to do a story on it and was actually planning to do that this year. And in a sign of the times, the story I'm instead doing is about how the braderie had to be cancelled because of heightened fears of terrorism. MARTINE AUBRY: (Speaking French). ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: With tears in her eyes Friday, Lille's mayor, Martine Aubry, said the decision was extremely painful, but she had no choice. The city simply could not guarantee the safety of more than 2 million people who pour into Lille for the three-day flea market festival at the beginning of each September. Lille native Jeremie Vasseur says he and his girlfriend are disappointed, but they understand. JEREMIE VASSEUR: (Through interpreter) I think there's a new reality now. There's a sort of fear settling in. People are afraid of what might happen. Even before the fair was cancelled, we were wondering if we would go considering what just happened in Nice. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: The July 14 attack in Nice by a truck driver who plowed through a crowd, killing 85 people, and the murder a week later in Normandy of an elderly Catholic priest by two Islamist extremist teenagers has put France on edge just as things were beginning to return to normal after the country successfully hosted the month-long European soccer championship. Twenty-year-old Lille university student Marion Fontaine says the braderie's cancellation shocked her. MARION FONTAINE: (Through interpreter) The only time it was cancelled before was under the German occupation, so the message is really negative and difficult to accept. We're not exactly at war now, but we're in some kind of situation we've never experienced, and we don't seem to be able to find a solution. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Some in Lille's business community were angered by the cancellation because they say they weren't even consulted. The head of Lille's chamber of commerce called the braderie's cancellation an economic and cultural disaster. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Chef Frederic Dumont is cooking up a big pot of mussels at a hopping brasserie just off Lille's central square. Moules-frites, or mussels with a side of fries, is one of the braderie's traditional dishes. Some 500 tons of mussels are consumed every year during the event. FREDERIC DUMONT: (Speaking French). ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: "We have Dutch and French varieties, and we steam them up in white wine with parsley, thyme and laurel," says Dumont. The chef says moules-frites became a staple in this region after World War I because it was cheaper to feed workers mussels than meat. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: (Speaking French). DIDIER PAPART: (Speaking French). ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: OK. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: As I sit down to enjoy a moules-frites of my own, I strike up a conversation with my neighbor, Lille doctor Didier Papart. He says the braderie should never have been cancelled. DIDIER PAPART: (Speaking French). ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: "Terrorism can happen anywhere," he says. "We should've maintained the braderie. By cancelling it, we handed the terrorists a victory. What a shame." Eleanor Beardsley, NPR News, Lille.

The French city of Lille has cancelled its annual flea market — an event that usually attracts millions of visitors and which dates from medieval times — because of security concerns.

Die französische Stadt Lille hat ihren jährlichen Flohmarkt – eine Veranstaltung, die normalerweise Millionen von Besuchern anzieht und aus dem Mittelalter stammt – aus Sicherheitsgründen abgesagt.

出于安全考虑，法国里尔市取消了一年一度的跳蚤市场。跳蚤市场通常吸引数百万游客，可以追溯到中世纪。

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to spend a good part of the program today looking ahead to some important events coming up this week, and we'll start with that long-awaited testimony on Capitol Hill by President Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen. Tuesday, Cohen is scheduled to appear before the Senate Intelligence Committee. The following day, he is to testify in a public session before the House Oversight and Reform Committee and Thursday in closed session before the House Intelligence Committee. One of the Democrats on that panel, Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut, is with us now. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Congressman, thank you so much for joining us. JIM HIMES: Happy to be here. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: What does the House Intelligence Committee want to learn from Michael Cohen? We know that he'll be testifying before some other committees, but what does your committee want to learn? JIM HIMES: Well, remember Michael Cohen has been sentenced to three years in prison for lying to our committee. And so (laughter), of course, the first thing we'll want to do is go back and look at the questions that he felt the need to be dishonest about and ask them again - and then, of course, explore why he felt he needed to be dishonest about that. Now, a lot of it, of course, had to do with Trump Tower Moscow. My guess is that the special counsel has probably looked into that in a lot of detail. But, you know, we're going to, I think, learn a lot more about that. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, as you noted, he's pleaded guilty to lying to Congress in previous testimony. Do you have confidence that what you're going to hear is truthful now? JIM HIMES: Well, of course, that will be what Republicans say constantly when he gives his testimony. Because you can bet when he gives his open testimony, here's a guy who has nothing to lose. You know, he's already going to prison. He did cooperate, we believe, obviously, truthfully with the special counsel. Otherwise, he might have wound up like Paul Manafort, who did not testify and work constructively with the special counsel. So he doesn't have a lot to lose. JIM HIMES: And, of course, he's got every incentive, having been attacked by the president over and over again, having been called a rat, having really been humiliated by the president - my guess is that he's going to come clean about what he knows about the president's business practices, you know, what he saw. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: I'm still trying to understand what it is that you hope to learn in the committee. Like, what do you hope is the sort of the goal of having Michael Cohen testify? What do you think's going to happen on Thursday that will advance what it is that everyone's trying to find out? JIM HIMES: I think what's useful to remember is how the congressional investigations are different from Bob Mueller's investigation. Bob Mueller's investigation is under the auspices of the Department of Justice. He has all of the tools available to him that any investigation would have - grand jury, subpoenas, that sort of thing. So Bob Mueller is really about identifying whether anybody anywhere committed a crime. JIM HIMES: That's not where the two congressional committees are focused. We as intelligence committees, of course, are focused on, what is the Russian nexus? You know, how did Russia not just hack into servers at the DNC and, you know, reach out to George Papadopoulos, but what else did Russia do? It's up to the Congress to really paint a picture to the American people of what the Russians did to compromise the election of 2016. JIM HIMES: So to your question about Michael Cohen, I think we need to understand from him any other possible contact he might have had with Russia, what he knows, who he talked to and what was said with respect to this Moscow tower. Because you know that the Kremlin - when Donald Trump is running for president, and the Kremlin knows that he wants to build a big tower in Moscow, you know that they probably thought hard about that and probably sent people to have contact with Trump's people. So it's really that - you know, Russia-centered questions that the Congress needs to focus on. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So finally, your committee chairman, Adam Schiff, said today that House Democrats will subpoena special counsel Mueller's report if necessary. Now, the new attorney general, William Barr, has said he wants to be as transparent as possible. But also, under the special counsel regulations, a report that goes public would be a report by the attorney general. So he gets the report, and then he decides, I assume, what becomes public. So, at the end of the day, how much of the special counsel's findings do you expect to see and do you think we in the public will actually see? JIM HIMES: Well, we really are going to hold the attorney general to his pledge to make as much of it public as possible. Now, there's two concerns that are real concerns. We don't want, you know, any sources or methods or investigative sources or methods compromised. Fair enough. And it is the tradition of the Department of Justice, of course, to protect people who might have been investigated but who aren't being charged. Fair enough. Those are problems, I think, that are solvable. JIM HIMES: What is essential is that because the Mueller investigation has consumed American politics because we have been treated to something unimaginable three years ago, which is the president the United States throwing mud on a man of the stature and the integrity of Bob Mueller and the Department of Justice and the FBI and the CIA, the only way we get out of this awful political moment where the DOJ and the FBI and Bob Mueller have been dragged through the mud is for us to see the work product and for the American people to have the catharsis, if you will, of knowing the truth. JIM HIMES: So you can bet, just as Adam Schiff said today, that we will lean as representatives of the American public very heavily into making sure that the truth, whatever it may be - whether it exonerates Donald Trump or not that that truth gets out there for the American people to examine. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. He represents Connecticut's 4th District, and he sits on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Congressman Himes, thank you so much for talking to us. JIM HIMES: Thank you very much.

Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut tells NPR's Michel Martin what Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee want to hear when former Trump attorney Michael Cohen testifies on Thursday.

Der Abgeordnete Jim Himes aus Connecticut erzählt Michel Martin von NPR, was die Demokraten im Ständigen Ausschusses für Geheimdienstliche Aufgaben hören wollen, wenn der ehemalige Anwalt von Trump, Michael Cohen, am Donnerstag aussagt.

来自康涅狄格州的国会议员吉姆·希姆斯对NPR的米歇尔·马丁表示，众议院特别情报委员会的民主党人希望听到特朗普前律师迈克尔·科恩周四作证的信息 。

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to start the program with a focus on the battle against ISIS. President Trump is expected to declare victory soon with the capture of the last pocket of territory held by the group in Syria. We're going to hear more about that in a minute. But first, we want to focus on the question of what should happen to the thousands of people who left their home countries either to fight for or live in what they thought would be the caliphate. And we're going to hear about one person whose story made international headlines. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Shamima Begum was just 15 years old when she left London four years ago with two other teenage girls to become ISIS brides. She married a young Dutch ISIS fighter. They had two children, who she says both died of malnutrition and disease due to the harsh conditions. Pregnant again, Shamima fled to a refugee camp in Syria two weeks ago, where she's just given birth to a baby boy. And she says she wants to return home to England. London Times correspondent Anthony Loyd met Shamima on a reporting trip to a refugee camp in Northeastern Syria. ANTHONY LOYD: Outwardly, she seems relatively composed, calm. But I imagine she was also deeply traumatized, in huge shock. She'd lost two children recently. She just escaped from the battlefield. And she was living in a refugee camp, which is - an open prison would be too cute a way of describing it. But, I mean, she can't leave. She doesn't know what's going to become of her, so inside, there was a lot of confusion and a lot of shock. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: The camp where Anthony Loyd found her is home to roughly 39,000 refugees. Among them are hundreds of wives, widows and children of ISIS fighters. He went searching for young British women. ANTHONY LOYD: I knew that in this final ongoing battle, some of the mysteries related to European volunteers, wives and hostages might be revealed because this was the last bit of land that was being overrun by local allies of the coalition. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: But Loyd said her journey home may not be easy. ANTHONY LOYD: Britain has made it clear so far that it does not want its own volunteers who joined Islamic State as fighters - or, it seems, as wives - back into its own territory. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Shamima told Lloyd she was happy to meet a fellow Brit and to share her story. But she worried about her legal situation and what might happen to her child. Loyd interviewed her in the camp's noisy office and posted the audio on the London Times website. SHAMIMA BEGUM: Now, I'm - like, I'm over 18, so they might - I might get charged with something. And what about the children? What will then happen to them? What do you think might happen to my child? They might take it away from me - or at least give it to my family. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Shamima told Loyd she's willing to do what's necessary to ensure her son's safety. SHAMIMA BEGUM: I'm more than happy to, like, you know, do what they want me to do, just so long as I can settle down with my child. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: But after everything, Shamima told Loyd that she has no regrets. ANTHONY LOYD: She was a confused young woman who was frightened. And I think, just to use that one sentence she said, which is a classic London teenager's sentence - I've got no regrets. Whether she was at the stage of regret yet, she was certainly in grief and shock. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was Anthony Loyd of The Times of London, who found Shamima Begum in a refugee camp in Syria earlier this week.

NPR's Michel Martin spoke with correspondent Anthony Loyd of The Times about Shamima Begum, an ISIS bride who left home as a teenager and now wants to return.

Michel Martin von NPR sprach mit dem Korrespondenten Anthony Loyd von The Times über Shamima Begum, eine ISIS-Braut, die als Teenager ihr Zuhause verließ und nun zurückkehren möchte.

NPR的米歇尔·马丁采访了《泰晤士报》记者安东尼·劳埃德，谈到了ISIS的新娘沙米玛·贝古姆，她在十几岁时离开了家，现在想回来。

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Today, dozens of Democrats in the House of Representatives state their priorities in fighting climate change. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. They're offering legislation that has been labeled a Green New Deal. And the lawmakers involved include one just arrived, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: Even the solutions that we have considered big and bold are nowhere near the scale of the actual problem that climate change presents to us, to our country and to the world. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Now, Ocasio-Cortez is a freshman, among the least-senior members of the House. But the self-described democratic socialist has received enormous attention since upsetting a senior New York lawmaker in a primary last year. DAVID GREENE, HOST: With dozens of co-sponsors, she presents a resolution today. It would promote wind and solar energy and call for the U.S. to have net-zero carbon emissions in 10 years. She talked about this in an NPR interview. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: The thing about a Green New Deal is that it's not an outright ban on any source of energy. And that's my opinion, as one member of Congress. And one of the big goals that we have is that we're trying to just sketch out a blueprint and work with other members to get there. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR political editor Domenico Montanaro is here and has been reading an advance copy of that blueprint - that resolution. Hi there, Domenico. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Good morning, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So what's it say? DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: You know, this is a nonbinding resolution. And as we noted, some of what it does - you know, being carbon neutral by 2030 is one of those things that a lot of experts say is not only ambitious, but almost impossible to pull off. Experts shoot for more like 2050, and that's considered ambitious. It would also eliminate most, if not all, air travel, in fact, because of how it wants to restructure things like high-speed rail - so very ambitious - not a lot of specifics as far as how to get to those things, but certainly laying down a marker for where liberals want to go in addressing climate change. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Largely eliminate air travel, which is considered to be really bad for our planet - for carbon levels in the atmosphere, trying to get people in a different - in different direction. But you're saying it's - essentially, it's a set of notions or ideas. It would actually require big legislation later to enact these ideas. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Yeah, or small legislation, having to enact various numbers of these ideas to flesh this out. And it's going to be a really difficult thing to actually enact as far as getting it on the floor because getting it to a vote is not something that a lot of moderate Democrats are going to be wanting to, you know, have to walk the plank on, frankly. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, well, let's talk about that. What would the reluctance be of Democratic leaders to buy into this Green New Deal notion? DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Well, it's a plan that would cost trillions upon trillions of dollars, to be quite honest. And it's not something that would ever pass the Republican-controlled Senate. Now, you know, all of that is practical and looking at the actual politics of the day. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Of course, liberals are going to say that this is, you know, a bold step forward that they can argue for and win people over on. And that very well may be the case. But Democrats in 2009 took a step with cap and trade, which was far less dramatic than this plan would be. It passed the House, didn't pass the Senate. And a lot of Democrats feel like they suffered some consequences along with the passage of Obamacare in the 2010 midterm elections. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: And let's remember the reason Democrats won in the 2018 midterms - while Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is able to get so much attention for herself and for her - the things that she wants to do, this election was really won on the backs of moderates. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, moderates who were able to win in suburban areas that had been Republican before. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Right. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Domenico, thanks so much. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: You're so welcome. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Domenico Montanaro. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: All right. When President Trump delivered his State of the Union speech the other night, almost all members of Congress and almost all members of the Cabinet attended. One Cabinet member was the designated survivor - designated to stay away just in case of calamity. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Well, in the state of Virginia, if they were to take that precaution, it might need to designate one top official to hide out from scandal. The top three officials in that state are all facing serious questions now. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Governor Ralph Northam faces pressure to resign over an old racist photo. The lieutenant governor, Justin Fairfax, is publicly accused by a woman who says he sexually assaulted her in 2004. And now the state's third-ranking official, Attorney General Mark Herring, has admitted that he donned blackface at a college party in the '80s. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Sarah McCammon, a resident of Virginia, has been following all this and is in our studio. Sarah, good morning. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Hi, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So Lieutenant Governor Fairfax has been fending off these allegations for a number of days, but now the woman who accused him has stepped forward with a written statement. What have you learned? SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Right. And her name is Vanessa Tyson. We had not been naming her until yesterday, when she came forward to tell her story. She's a politics professor at Scripps College in California and currently a fellow at Stanford. And in a detailed statement, she says, quote, "what began as consensual kissing quickly turned into a sexual assault," she says, by Justin Fairfax. This was in 2004, she says, at the Democratic National Convention in Boston. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: They were both working at the convention, right? They were staying in a hotel. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: They were both there. And they met there. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: And where the story gets more complicated is it initially surfaced on a conservative blog based on a private social media post that Tyson had made where she appeared to allude to this. And she also had told her story to The Washington Post over a year ago. They checked it out, said they couldn't corroborate either version of events and decided not to publish. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: But now, she says this has all come out, and she wants to set the record straight. She says she's coming forward with tremendous anguish, though, to tell her story. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Fairfax originally said, when vaguer versions of this story were out there, this is a political smear. What is he saying now that more specific allegations are public? SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: He's repeatedly denied this. And in a new statement yesterday, he says Tyson's allegations are surprising and hurtful, but he has to dispute her version of events. And he also said he wanted to emphasize how important it is to listen to women when they come forward. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: We should also note he's retained a law firm - the same one that represented Brett Kavanaugh during his Senate confirmation hearings when he was accused of sexual assault. And now the National Organization for Women is calling for Fairfax to resign. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So the big picture here - we have a governor who's been accused involving this old racist photo. We have the lieutenant governor with the allegations we just discussed. The attorney general, who is No. 3 in the line of succession, has said he wore blackface at one time. Don't have any indications that any of these officials would resign. But what if? What if all three of them did have to resign? SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Well, we should say, Steve, they're all three Democrats. So this creates challenges for the Democratic Party on a number of levels, one of which is that the No. 4 in line is the House speaker, who is a Republican. His name is Kirk Cox. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: And you may remember that weird election about a year ago, where there was an undecided House race in Virginia that had to be decided by casting lots. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, because they were so close. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Because it was so close. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: There was a drawing to decide the winner of that one legislative seat. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: That went to a Republican. Republicans stayed in control of the Virginia House of Delegates. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: By that one seat. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: By that one seat. And now Kirk Cox, their speaker, is No. 4 in line for the governorship. So it is a mess in Virginia right now. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Wow. And we'll continue listening for your reporting on that mess. Sarah, thanks so much. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Thank you. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Sarah McCammon. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: It's been three months since the most destructive and deadliest fire in California history burned almost the entire town of Paradise. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. The Camp Fire also wiped out 15 percent of housing stock in a county overnight. Now, while some residents have left, others with less means have had no choice but to camp out on their properties. But here's the thing. The federal government says they won't pay for a cleanup if people are living there. You can imagine this is not very popular. The mayor of Paradise, Jody Jones, says there's no choice but to somehow take in federal aid. JODY JONES: If we don't do it, our town will look like a war zone for the next 20 years because we are broke. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Kirk Siegler has been traveling in Paradise. He joins us now. Hi, Kirk. KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: Hey, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: What's the town look like? KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: Well, you know, when you heard the mayor there - Mayor Jones saying it's a war zone, that's not an exaggeration. I've been up there for about a month reporting a longer-term project. And every time I drive around the town, it's still just shocking to look at. KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: It's rubble. You know, it's billed as a town, but it was really a city of 25,000 people. The Safeway's gone. Whole neighborhoods are gone. Fast-food restaurants are still leveled. And they're still in that state three months on. There just really hasn't been a whole lot of recovery yet. KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: And that burned area where people can't live on their burned-out properties was declared a public health disaster for a reason. You can't drink the water, still, in Paradise. The are - benzene's seeping into the water supply. There's other toxins in the ash when the wind blows up. It's - Sarah said mess. It's still a mess in Paradise. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Do you, nevertheless, run into residents from time to time as you move about town? KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: You do. And there was some sort of ruckus - public meetings this week over the proposals to ban camping again for residents, who had been told that they could move back, and now they can't. And this is a big source of tension, as you can imagine, because the town is basically a skeleton. And there was already a housing shortage before the fire, so if people are able to hang on and try to hold out and wait for the recovery, you know, it's not sure where they'll even live. KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: I met Martha Bryant, who was born and raised in Paradise. And, you know, she called this week, you know, yet another setback. And she worries that more people will just give up and leave. MARTHA BRYANT: It's their property. They're adults. They know the risks. We don't need other people - the county and everybody else - telling us how we should live our lives. KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: And, Steve, you know, this was - this is a rural part of the country where there was a lot of mistrust of the government already before the fire. And when a disaster like this happens, you know, at least for now, places like this are basically wholly dependent on federal and state aid to even just recover. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: What reassurances and plans are officials offering? KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: Well, just the toxic debris removal itself - the cleanup, they're saying, will hopefully just take a few months for some residents, but it could be a year or more. A lot of people I talked to expect it to be at least a year. You know, federal disaster officials say they have not seen a, you know, toxic debris removal like this in this country since 9/11. KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: So there's a whole lot of work to be done even before the town can start asking the bigger questions. Should it rebuild? And how should it rebuild in a high-risk zone like that? STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Kirk, thanks very much for your reporting, and we look forward, also, to that long-term project when you're done. KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: Glad to do it. Thanks, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Kirk Siegler, who has been traveling in Paradise, Calif.

Freshman Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is set to unveil her environmental plan. Multiple political scandals envelop Virginia. An update on the Camp Fire which destroyed the town of Paradise, Calif.

Freshman Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wird ihren Umweltplan vorstellen. Mehrere politische Skandale herrschen in Virginia. Eine neueste Nachricht zum Lagerfeuer, das die Paradiesstadt Kalifornien zerstörte.

众议院新代表亚历山大·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯将公布她的环保计划。多重政治丑闻笼罩着弗吉尼亚。关于遭营地大火摧毁的加州天堂镇最新消息。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: A decade after apartheid ended, musician Jonathan Butler went back to Athlone, Cape Town with a mission, to visit his family and play a special concert in Cape Town. He grew up in the colored townships. And in South Africa, colored was distinct from black. That's where he learned to trust his talent. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): This is where the family would see who's the real singer or not. And you'd sit by the fire and when you throw your voice, everybody goes okay. I think you can make it. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Butler documents his trip back with a new CD and DVD, "Live in South Africa." Recently, Jonathan Butler got by our NPR studios with his guitar. We started out talking about how he became the first non-white person played on white South African radio. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): Well, I was 12 years old. I was - I just got signed to independent label called, Jive, which was independent back then. It was a kind of different time. You know, I mean, I was doing cabaret and I was singing in carnivals, ballet choirs. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So wait, you're 12 years old and you've - it sounds like you were already an experienced showman. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): I was - well, I grew up in the family of 12, you know, siblings who all, were out there doing concerts, cabaret shows, working in night clubs, traveling, you know? And their stories always fascinated me when they came from their travels. They talk about so many things that seem, and they'd sort of - the stuff they would bring home. And music was obviously our world, you know? And I just love that. I just wanted to sing and - but I was the kind of kid that would openly sing right off the bat. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): From the time I was 6 years old, I was in community concerts. My parents always had their own variety shows, and then I started winning competitions in carnival and stuff like that, and I started working with local bands because they love my voice and we did R&B stuff, you know, from America, we did pop stuff from U.K. A lot of Top 40, you know? Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): But my journey really began when I won a huge contest in South Africa in Cape Town. And that took me away from my parents. And I remember being sort of, pretty scared, basically, because I was a 6-year-old kid, 7-year-old kid living - now, I had my own bedroom. I, you know, I used to, my, our shanty house, our shack was pretty much - all the brothers lived in one room and all the sisters having one room and mom and dad had twin beds. And so, for me, to have my own room is pretty amazing. That kind of, you know, scared the living daylights out of me. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): And having to learn to learn with a knife and fork, and, you know, through all of that travels, and leaving my home, my parents, by the time I was 12, I got discovered by Clive Calder who now, who used to own Jive records and Ralph Simon. And they said would you want to, you know, we'd love to make a record with you. And of course, that was all I ever wanted, was to be heard on radio because Stevie Wonder was my hero in life and Michael Jackson when he was still a cute Michael Jackson because, you know, people like Billy are just adored on radio. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): So my parents said, yeah, and I made my first record. It was a song called "Please Stay," you know, it was like (unintelligible). And it was something like this. It went… Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): (Soundbite of song, "Please Stay")" Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): (Singing) If I got on my knees and pleaded with you not to go but to stay in my arms. Something like that. Will you walk out the door like you did once before? This time - like that - will be different. Please Stay. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): Something like that, you know? But I mean, it was 10 keys higher at the time. But that song was… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: A big song for a young man. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): What did I know about love? I had - knew nothing about love. You know, I was 12 years old. But the song became a national hit song. And, you know, it was the first time that I experienced in South Africa that kind of notoriety and popularity and fame. And I still lived in a shack, you know, an outhouse, and all that stuff, no electricity. You know, a lot of things did not change even though I was probably the country's most popular artist from that time. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): And I later discovered what that - the gratification so - what that, you know, what that presented, that I was the first black kid to be played on white radio. I mean, South Africa was very different. It was very different, very different then. I mean, I won the Grammy, but my picture wasn't in the paper. You know, the white lady presented me the award, kissed me, you know, the night of the award. They never showed the pictures. They just said, you know, the youngest black kid to ever win a South African Grammy. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): And so I had no idea what socially, politically what that meant, you know? And I just kept going because music was my breath, it was my life, it was my salvation. But now, we have a different kind of warfare that we have to fight, which is HIV/AIDS in South Africa. And we have to deal with poverty in South Africa. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): I do ask myself the question what is going on in government and in power. So it just tells me that it takes leadership. When you say you're going to run, you know, for president or you say you're going to run for, you're going to start a foundation, you know, to help the poor, it takes incredible amount of leadership, not just vision, because we still, you know, I mean, my heart still breaks when I get off the plane and I drive from the airport to the hotel, you know? And I see more shanties now that I've ever seen. Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): Now, having said that, I'm excited to walk down the streets a free man in South Africa. I remember as a kid, seeing white signs, black signs, colored signs all over the place, you know? The Rosa Parks stories were endless in South Africa. None of them were heard. None of them were spoken off, you know? And so, I can say, it takes incredible amount of leadership. It's going to take incredible amount of leadership. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, I know that a lot of people had been inspired by your music. And I want to end with one of your breakthrough songs, breakthrough gospel songs. Will you take us out with "Falling in love with Jesus?" Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): (Singing) Falling in love with Jesus. Falling in love with Jesus. Falling in love with Jesus was the best thing I've ever done. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: His new CD/DVD collection, and we're talking about Jonathan Butler, is called "Live in South Africa." Mr. JONATHAN BUTLER (Singer): In his arms I feel protected oh. In his arms… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's our show for today. Thank you for sharing your time with us. To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnews.org. No spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR NEWS and the African-American Public Radio Consortium. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tomorrow, Bob Marley's "Exodus," the making of an iconic album. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. This is NEWS & NOTES.

Today he's primarily known as a smooth jazz artist, but during his early years in South Africa, Jonathan Butler was an R&B trailblazer. Farai Chideya talks with Butler about what it was like to be South African star by age 12.

Heute ist er vor allem als Smooth-Jazz-Künstler bekannt, aber in seinen frühen Jahren in Südafrika war Jonathan Butler ein R&B-Pionier. Farai Chideya spricht mit Butler darüber, wie es war, mit 12 Jahren ein südafrikanischer Star zu sein.

今天，乔纳森·巴特勒主要是作为通俗爵士乐艺术家被熟知，但他早年在南非时是节奏布鲁斯的先驱。法莱·奇德亚对他进行了采访，聊了聊在12岁时就成为南非巨星是什么感觉。

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Now to that very disturbing story from the Vatican, another warning that this may be upsetting for some to hear. The former U.S. Cardinal Theodore McCarrick was defrocked by Pope Francis today. Vatican officials found him guilty of sexual crimes against children and adults, including soliciting sex during confession. McCarrick is the highest ranking person to be expelled from the Catholic Church in response to the clerical abuse scandals. John Allen is the editor of Crux. That's an online newspaper that specializes in coverage of the Vatican and the Catholic Church. We reached him in Rome. John Allen, thank you so much for speaking with me. JOHN ALLEN: It's my pleasure. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And I'm going to start by asking you what it means that McCarrick was defrocked. And I'm going to ask you what it means for him, personally, and I'd like to ask you what it means on a broader scale. JOHN ALLEN: Well, you have to understand that for a cleric that is a priest or a deacon in the Catholic Church to be dismissed from the clerical state or, in layman's terms, to be defrocked is, essentially, the death penalty. It is the most severe penalty that the church can impose. It means that Theodore McCarrick cannot say Mass. He cannot hear confessions. He cannot perform baptisms, I mean, all of these things that priests do over the arc of their entire career and are sort of foundational to their identities. So it is an extraordinarily serious and severe form of censure from the church. That's what it means for him, personally. JOHN ALLEN: In terms of the sort of policy dimension of this, quite clearly, imposing the death penalty on a cardinal is intended to send a signal of strength and resolve by Pope Francis and the Vatican about seriousness with regard to the clerical sexual abuse scandals that have been such a cancer for the Catholic Church over the last 30 years. We should say that all of this comes on the eve of a keenly anticipated summit for presidents of bishops' conferences from all over the world and other senior church officials that will be opening in Rome on Thursday, precisely focused on those clerical sex abuse scandals and designed to sort of move the ball towards resolution. So, quite clearly, this is calculated by the pope and his Vatican team to sort of set the table for the discussion in that summit. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: I wonder if the decision to rebuke McCarrick in this very serious way, as you have described, affects the experiences of survivors moving forward. JOHN ALLEN: Based on what I have been picking up, the censure of Cardinal McCarrick that was announced today, while it is welcome - because survivors, above all, want to see justice for the crimes that were committed against them. But I think they would say it's not enough. It's not enough to impose accountability for the crime of sexual abuse. There also has to be accountability for the cover-up of that crime. And the question that remains unanswered today is - who was aware of the kind of behavior that ex-Cardinal McCarrick was engaged in? And why didn't they do anything about it? That question has not been answered by the verdict that was delivered by the Vatican on Saturday. And, until it is answered, I suspect most survivors and most reformers are going to say that the church has not yet completed the job. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That is John Allen. He's the editor of the online newspaper Crux. He's also written a number of books on the Vatican and Catholic affairs. He's a former senior correspondent for The National Catholic Reporter. We reached him via Skype in Rome. John Allen, thank you so much for talking to us. JOHN ALLEN: You are very welcome.

Veteran Vatican watcher John Allen tells NPR's Michel Martin that the defrocking of former U.S. cardinal Theodore McCarrick is the most severe form of punishment for a cleric.

Der erfahrene Vatikan-Beobachter John Allen sagt Michel Martin von NPR, dass die Entlassung des ehemaligen US-Kardinals Theodore McCarrick die härteste Form der Bestrafung für einen Kleriker sei.

元老梵蒂冈观察家约翰·艾伦告诉NPR的米歇尔·马丁，对美国前红衣主教西奥多·麦卡里克解除圣职是对神职人员最严厉的惩罚。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The ongoing trade dispute between the U.S. and China is clearly having an economic impact on both countries. But tariffs can also affect people on an individual level. Nowhere is that more apparent than in America's agricultural communities. Stacey Vanek Smith and Cardiff Garcia are the hosts of the podcast The Indicator from Planet Money, and they spoke with one farmer whose livelihood is now on the frontlines of a trade war. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: David Reed farms more than 2,000 acres of peanuts and cotton here in Pinehurst, Ga. And when his crop started coming in last year, he says, it was glorious. DAVID REED: Oh, yeah. We had the best crop we ever had in 50 years. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: And then, starting over the summer, a couple of things happened. First, a trade war broke out. The U.S. imposed tariffs on Chinese goods, and China retaliated with import taxes of its own. CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: Among the U.S. goods that China started taxing were peanut butter and cotton, basically everything they grow in this part of Georgia. And then a couple of months later, this happened. BROOKE BALDWIN: Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin live here in Destin, Fla., where we are covering the official landfall of Hurricane Michael. BROOKE BALDWIN: UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: You can feel the ferocity. I'm sorry. I'm... BROOKE BALDWIN: UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: Getting sustained Category 4 hurricane winds coming in. This is epic. CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: David lost about a third of his cotton crop and a couple of fields of peanuts, too. DAVID REED: See the peanuts on the ground there? That's what was left. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Left after the storm. Peanuts grow underground like potatoes, and this field has peanuts all over the dirt. David picked a couple up, but they were rotten from all the water from the storm. The shell was kind of soft. It came apart in his hands. DAVID REED: See; that was a good peanut when it came out. But it just somehow - we didn't get it picked till after the storm hit. CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: The peanuts and cotton that did survive walked straight out of a storm and into a trade war. China's peanut butter and cotton orders from the U.S. collapsed overnight. And the price that David was getting for his peanuts and cotton both fell by about 30 percent. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: And what had been shaping up to be one of the best years in David's entire farming career turned into one of the worst years he'd ever seen. DAVID REED: You know, we had planned to make a lot of money this year, but the Lord didn't see fit for it. But hopefully, we're going to break even. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Break even. And David says he is one of the lucky ones. DAVID REED: There's some farmers just worried. You know, I've heard them talk and say, I don't know if I'm going to survive this or not. And you know, it's heartbreaking. CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: And David says that the economic effects of the storm and the tariffs haven't just hit the farmers. They've hit the whole area. DAVID REED: It's hurting the whole community and the equipment dealers and the guy down the street with the hardware store, and everybody suffers. CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: In spite of everything, though, David actually supports the tariffs. DAVID REED: I thought, well, that's not good for the farmer right now. But I think it's the right thing to do. You know? And I think President Trump done the right thing - in my opinion. I think he did a good thing. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: David thinks the macroeconomic issues between the U.S. and China are important enough that the sacrifice feels worth it to him. CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: Now, the government is providing millions of dollars in aid to cotton farmers and supplementing a lot of the peanut losses. It doesn't make up for everything. It doesn't make up for all the losses. But David says he is not going to switch to another crop; neither is anybody he knows. They're going to continue growing cotton and peanuts just like always. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Why is that? DAVID REED: It's in their blood. You know, it's what they've always done. STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Stacey Vanek Smith. CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: Cardiff Garcia, NPR News.

The trade dispute between the U.S. and China has economic impacts on both countries — including America's agricultural communities. A Georgia farmer's livelihood is on the front lines of the dispute.

Der Handelsstreit zwischen den USA und China hat wirtschaftliche Auswirkungen auf beide Länder – einschließlich der amerikanischen Landwirtschaftsgemeinden. Der Lebensunterhalt eines georgischen Bauern steht an vorderster Front des Streits.

美国和中国之间的贸易争端对两国的经济都有影响，包括美国的农业社区。佐治亚州一位农民的生计问题是这场争端的前沿问题。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: After 17 years of war in Afghanistan, the United States wants out. And there now appears to be a framework for making that happen. But the Afghan central government hasn't been directly involved in these discussions. So far, the negotiations have been between the U.S. and the Taliban, which has left many Afghans worried about their future. Roya Rahmani is not one of them, though. She was recently appointed Afghanistan's first female ambassador to the U.S. And she is optimistic the U.S. will do right by her country. What is less clear to her is whether the Taliban is negotiating in good faith. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Do you trust the Taliban negotiators? ROYA RAHMANI: I haven't been at the table to be able to directly respond to this. However, what I could say is that our people has demonstrated the generosity to let go of the past and to let go of the grievances as a price for peace. And they are willing to come in terms. There is one other thing also - that Afghanistan is a changed place. The resolve to democracy is one of our highest values. I will quickly share with you something that really moved me when I visited Afghanistan after parliamentary election, and that was that a taxi driver sacrificed seven hours of his income earning hours while he is responsible for feeding four of his children at home in order to cast his vote. That shows there is resolve to democracy - our resolve to the values that we have earned. And Afghanistan's nation, a changed nation now, has different standing and aspiration today. So whatever the outcome, it has to cater to that. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What happens to Afghanistan's young democracy if the Taliban is either incorporated into a power-sharing agreement or, at the very least, legitimized through this peace plan? ROYA RAHMANI: The Taliban, if part of the Afghan society, they can certainly participate in the democratic processes. We have laid out a very clear roadmap towards peace on how we could go about this. And we are hoping to be able to unroll that. That will specify the rules, and they are most welcome to join and be part of the power sharing, stand for election, have people vote for them. This is their right like every other Afghan citizens' right. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You are the first woman to serve as ambassador from Afghanistan to the United States. Are you concerned that if the Taliban is incorporated into government, if the Taliban is legitimized, that all those advances for minorities in Afghanistan - for women in particular - are you concerned that they will be reversed? ROYA RAHMANI: Rachel, I don't believe that Afghanistan could fall back. We are a changed nation. There is a shift in the mindset. Let me give you an example. I have met a soldier who has joined our forces simply because he has two daughters. And he will not agree that his daughters will not go to school. That's the reason he told me he joined our forces. Afghanistan is a changed place, and this is why that there is more to a peaceful Afghanistan to offer to all its partners as a partner - not as a dependent - in the foreseeable future. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: At some point if the peace talks continue, you as an ambassador, I would imagine, would have occasion to be in a meeting with a Taliban leader. Would they even tolerate your presence there considering their subjugation of women? I mean, it's one thing for you to say you believe that Afghanistan is moving forward, but the Taliban have not conceded that at all. They still maintain the same views about women's place in society. ROYA RAHMANI: Well, that question is for them to answer. But at the same time, let's not forget if I am at the table like many other women, I will be representing half of my population. If - no deal would be acceptable if it ignores half of our population. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Ambassador Roya Rahmani, thank you so much for talking with us. ROYA RAHMANI: Thank you very much. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: She is Afghanistan's ambassador to the U.S., the first woman to serve in that role. NPR's Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman was listening in to that conversation and joins me now. Good morning, Tom. TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hey. Good morning, Rachel. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad is the special envoy leading the U.S. in these peace talks. He insists - Khalilzad does - that nothing is for sure until the Afghan central government signs off on it. But how likely is that? TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Well, right, that's what he said. It's important to note, Rachel, we're in the very early stages of this process. The Taliban have yet to agree even to sit down with the Afghan government. That's what really has to happen. And that's what the Afghan government is demanding, and so is the U.S. government. Now, the Taliban say before they sit down with the Afghan government, they want a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops. Meanwhile, Afghan President Ashraf Ghani says the rights of the Afghan people will not be compromised in the name of peace. So that clearly means making sure the rights of women are assured, that women can work outside the home, girls can go to school and so forth. But again, we're sort of at a stalemate a little bit here, you know, because the Taliban want that timetable withdrawal of U.S. troops before they sit down with the Afghan government. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right, and... TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Again, there's a lot that has to be done here. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, we heard a lot of optimism in the ambassador's voice there. But what is to prevent the Taliban from overthrowing the Afghan government once the U.S. is gone? TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Well, that's of great concern of people within the Afghan government who just don't trust the Taliban and are wary of any deal and, of course, are concerned that the U.S. will leave abruptly. President Trump has said he'll pull about 7,000 troops out. That's half the number there now. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: So again, there's a great concern within the Afghan government about whether you can even trust the Taliban. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Thanks, Tom. TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: You're welcome.

Rachel Martin talks to Roya Rahmani, Afghanistan's new ambassador to the U.S. and the first woman to serve in that role, about ongoing negotiations with the Taliban. NPR's Tom Bowman weighs in.

Rachel Martin spricht mit Roya Rahmani, Afghanistans neuer Botschafterin in den USA und der ersten Frau in dieser Funktion, über die laufenden Verhandlungen mit den Taliban. Tom Bowman von NPR schaltet sich ein.

雷切尔·马丁与阿富汗新任驻美大使罗亚·拉赫马尼就与塔利班正在进行的谈判进行了交谈。罗亚是首位担任该职务的女性。NPR新闻的汤姆·鲍曼加入进来。

ELISE HU, HOST: Since algorithms make it harder to find political views we disagree with, where should we go to find them? To find out, we called up several conservative and liberal opinion writers and thinkers and asked them who they read and watch. Amy Goodman, the host of "Democracy Now!," is a voice on the left. She says getting out there and talking to different people is the way she breaks through the silos. AMY GOODMAN: I read widely so that we are not segregated, you know, on the networks watching many different programs from Fox to Al Jazeera, from MSNBC to CNN, to all of these places. ELISE HU, HOST: Here is Jennifer Rubin. JENNIFER RUBIN: I'm the author of the "Right Turn" blog at The Washington Post. And although many conservatives think I'm not conservative enough, I do report and editorialize from the conservative side of the spectrum. ELISE HU, HOST: She regularly reads columnists considered very liberal, including her colleagues at The Post, E.J. Dionne and Eugene Robinson. JENNIFER RUBIN: When every kid can have a blog and anyone can get on Twitter, you miss those people who have covered presidents and elections and world events for a long time. And so they have a richness of understanding a perspective about how this compares to other events in previous years. And that, I think, is vitally important. ELISE HU, HOST: Here's another conservative perspective - Ramesh Ponnuru, editor at National Review. He says even though he disagrees with many progressive opinion writers, he always learns from them. RAMESH PONNURU: And very often they are trying to respond to the best conservative arguments rather than simply pointing to the worst ones and making fun of them. ELISE HU, HOST: Ponnuru follows several liberal writers at The Huffington Post and The Washington Post. RAMESH PONNURU: I think that Jonathan Chait of New York Magazine is someone who consistently gives me things to think about and sometimes to agree with but also often to disagree with. JONATHAN CHAIT: My name is Jonathan Chait, and I write columns about politics from a center left perspective for New York Magazine. ELISE HU, HOST: Chait disagrees with most of the conservatives he reads, but he finds Ramesh Ponnuru one of the most interesting. And, no, neither of them knew we were talking to the other. He says he follows commentators and writers across the political spectrum. JONATHAN CHAIT: I disagree with almost everyone, politically, about something. So there's hardly anyone who I read who I always agree with. ELISE HU, HOST: Chait says that making sure he reads and hears other sides of an argument is just common sense. JONATHAN CHAIT: It's like asking a mathematician, why are you always looking at numbers? ELISE HU, HOST: That was Amy Goodman of "Democracy Now!," Jennifer Rubin of The Washington Post, Ramesh Ponnuru of National Review and Jonathan Chait of New York Magazine.

Amy Goodman of Democracy Now; Jennifer Rubin of the Washington Post; Ramesh Ponnuru of National Review; and Jonathan Chait of New York Magazine, tell us who they read even if they don't always agree.

Amy Goodman von Democracy Now; Jennifer Rubin von der Washington Post; Ramesh Ponnuru von National Review; und Jonathan Chait vom New York Magazine erzählen uns, wen sie lesen, auch wenn sie nicht immer einer Meinung sind.

《现在民主》的艾米·古德曼、《华盛顿邮报》的珍妮弗·鲁宾、《国家评论》的拉梅什·庞努鲁和《纽约杂志》的乔纳森·柴特，告诉我们他们读了谁，即使他们并不总是一致的。

LYNN NEARY, HOST: In Nice, France this morning, police took two more people into custody for possible connections to Thursday's attack. So far, evidence indicates the man who drove a truck along a pedestrian boulevard, killing 84 people, acted alone. But authorities are questioning several people. As NPR's Eleanor Beardsley reports, news that the attack was inspired by ISIS has added to fears. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: In Nice, the beach has reopened and residents can stroll once again along the Promenade des Anglais, the picturesque, palm-lined boulevard that runs along the Mediterranean coast. Today, the usually festive promenade is littered with flowers and candles. Faces are somber. Nice native Anne Noyer is lighting a candle. ANNE NOYER: We are very afraid. Very, very... ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Afraid, Noyer says, that the attack was inspired by ISIS. She says, "if the driver was just mentally ill, well, it's horrible, but a freak thing." "If he was with ISIS," she says, "it means the enemy is all around us." Noyer says Nice has an uneasy relationship with its Muslim population. Many Muslims have been here for generations and are integrated, she says, but others not so. Among them are foreigners like the Tunisian killer Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel. A hundred people from Nice have joined the ranks of ISIS fighters in Iraq and Syria, one of the highest numbers of any French city. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: At a mosque in Nice, prayers are breaking off. News that the attack may have been carried out in the name of ISIS worries the Muslim community in this city. French-Tunisian Farid Benhada tells me none of this has anything to do with Islam. FARID BENHADA: (Speaking French). ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: "The driver was no Muslim," he says, "but many of the victims were. God never told anyone to go kill children." Benhada says Muslims are afraid of a backlash. Bouhlel lived in this hilly neighborhood of high rises in the north of Nice. He came to France from Tunisia 10 years ago. People here say he beat his wife until she left him. They also say Bouhlel was not religious, but angry and mentally unstable. French authorities are examining Bouhlel's cell phone, found in the van. They say he may have radicalized rapidly in the last weeks. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Church services are being held across the city today. There is sadness and growing anger. Many say there was not enough security Thursday. Bouhlel was able to drive his truck up onto the sidewalk to get onto the crowded boulevard. PHILIPPE VARDON: Nothing has been really done to protect our people. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: That's Philippe Vardon, a local official with the far-right National Front party. He blames the French government for the sparse security Thursday and for allowing mass immigration over the years. He says that's created Muslim ghettos where radicalism takes hold. PHILIPPE VARDON: You've got some places that are really not French at this moment because it's only Muslim area. And so in these places, it's the Muslim law. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: The anti-immigrant National Front party wants to close French borders and leave the European Union. Vardon believes the recent attack will make people realize his party is right. Eleanor Beardsley, NPR News, Nice.

Authorities are piecing together details on the suspect who killed more than 84 people with a 20-ton truck. At the same time, questions persist about security.

Die Behörden stellen Details zu dem Verdächtigen zusammen, der mehr als 84 Menschen mit einem 20-Tonner getötet hat. Gleichzeitig bleiben Fragen zur Sicherheit.

有关部门正在搜集嫌犯的详细资料，这名嫌犯驾驶一辆20吨重的卡车杀害了84人。与此同时，关于安全的问题仍然存在。

NEAL CONAN, HOST: A lot of people take a break over the holidays. Schools are out, people go on vacation or head home to be with their families. And many of the unemployed and underemployed take a much needed breather from the grind of the job hunt. In this week's Wall Street Journal, reporter Lauren Weber wrote that there might be more opportunities than you might think right now. Hiring officials, are you pretty well shutdown for the year? And if you're looking for a job, what is your holiday strategy? NEAL CONAN, HOST: Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org, click on TALK OF THE NATION. Lauren Weber joins us now from our bureau in New York. She covers careers for The Wall Street Journal. Nice to have you with us. LAUREN WEBER: Thanks, Neal. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And you got some interesting answers when you spoke with companies and jobseekers at a job fair last week in Manhattan. LAUREN WEBER: Yes. The companies that I spoke to who were looking to hire people were saying that the attendance at the job fair was actually very, very disappointing. One man I spoke to said he had about a third as many people stopping by as he normally does when it's not holiday season. And, you know, as he said, everybody who - all of the companies that were there that day were looking for people. So jobseekers who chose to stay home or, you know, as you said, take a break from looking for work during the holidays might be missing out on those opportunities. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And you also ran into at least one jobseeker who said wait a minute. I go out there every day, rain or shine. LAUREN WEBER: Yes. This was a woman who had been unemployed for about 11 months. She had been a government engineer, lost her job in January, and she said she looks for a job every day. And she said, you know, plenty of companies are very well organized. There are projects that get announced at all months of the year. In fact, she had - she mentioned that Mayor Bloomberg had recently announced a big development project here in New York, might be looking for engineers. You know, so she said there's no point in taking a break from looking for a job. There's always somebody who needs somebody with her qualifications. NEAL CONAN, HOST: In general, what kind of jobs were the companies offering, though? Were they, you know, 40 hours a week, full-time, benefits, that sort of thing? LAUREN WEBER: No, unfortunately. At the job fair that I went to and then others that I've been to, a lot of the jobs that are open are actually commission based. You know, they are insurance, sales or financial products, financial planners. One company was a debt-collection company, which, unfortunately, says something about our economy right now. And a lot of these jobs are, like I said, commission based. They don't pay a salary. They don't pay benefits. So they're not exactly the highest quality jobs. LAUREN WEBER: On the other hand, you know, I've spent a lot of time looking at the job board websites, things like Monster or CareerBuilder. And if you look on those sites, there are jobs being posted every single day. You know, dozens often, you know, if you type in any city, and those are for other kinds of jobs. You might find nursing positions, project management, accountant, things like that. So it's not just the low-quality jobs that are available. NEAL CONAN, HOST: I was also interested - you pointed out in your piece - there's a lot of companies that have, you know, departments have budgets, and it's use-it-or-lose-it money. If they don't spend it by the end of the year, they're not going to get it back in their budget the next year. LAUREN WEBER: Exactly. This is more of an issue for bigger companies than small ones, where, you know, there's a single budget. But for big companies that might have departments or divisions, each one has their own budget to get through, you know, for the whole year. And most companies operate on a fiscal year that matches the calendar year. So they really do have to use that money by the end of December. If they can't prove to their managers that they've spent their budget, it looks like they don't need the money, and they won't get it again next year. LAUREN WEBER: So, you know, that money might be used to fill open positions or, who knows, even to create a position, just, you know, for a project that might be anticipated for the following year, or it can be used for extras, like a relocation expenses or a signing bonus. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We're talking with Lauren Weber of the Wall Street Journal. She covers careers there and saying that there are some maybe unexpected or counterintuitive opportunities for jobs available during the holiday season. 800-989-8255. Email, talk@npr.org. We'd like to hear from those of you who are hiring. Are you still open for business for the remainder of the year? And those of you looking, what do you do to set your holiday-period strategy? We'll start with Alice, and Alice is on the line with us from Tulare, in California. ALICE: Hi. I was calling in because I'm actually sitting on a panel for interviewing right now, to fill a position for a community liaison position, and I was just astounded. I was asked to be part of it. But what astounds me is the number of qualified individuals. You know, normally in, you know, in the hiring process, you'd have a few individuals, and we're in a rural, agricultural area. But to have, you know, upwards of more than a dozen applicants that are qualified just really hints at the fact that, you know, we're going to have the best individual for that position once all is said and done. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Yeah. That sounds like also you're going to have to make a difficult decision when it comes down to it. Somebody gets a job... ALICE: Exactly. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Sorry? ALICE: Exactly. I mean, it's just going to be really, really tough once everything is said and done because every one is very, very qualified. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, at least somebody in California is hiring, though. ALICE: Yes, definitely. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Nice of you to call, Alice. And thanks very much for the call. ALICE: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Here's an email from Mark: I've been looking for work for two years now. My strategy for the holidays: keep searching full time, full speed ahead. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And, Lauren Weber, you pointed out that, well, yeah, part of the strategy for job seekers, yeah, go on Monster, apply for those jobs, but network, network, network. LAUREN WEBER: Yeah. I mean, that is kind of the golden rule for all job seekers. You know, that's - often many companies report that's the best way to find a job. And if anything, they prefer employee referrals to, you know, a resume that just comes over the transom along with hundreds of others. So, you know, holidays are a great time to do this. You can - there are many parties being given, whether it's with family or friends or neighbors. You know, there's always people to meet and kind of ask them what they're doing and about what's going at their companies. LAUREN WEBER: So, actually, I didn't even - this didn't even occur to me until after I had written the story, but this is exactly what I had done in my previous job. I was at a New Year's Day party, and I happened to meet somebody and asked her about her company. I had just written a book. I'd been out of the job market for about two years, and I was quite in need of a steady paycheck and some health insurance. And I met this woman. We talked about her company a little bit. She said that they were just starting to hire. I sent her my resume the next day. And two months later, I was working at the company. So it really... NEAL CONAN, HOST: Wow. LAUREN WEBER: ...can work. You just never know who you're going to run into. And, you know, always keep an open mind. You know, not that you want to bring copies of your resume to a party and force it on anybody, but it's a really good way to meet people. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Yeah. I was going to put resumes in my Christmas cards, yeah. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Yeah. No. I would stay away from that. LAUREN WEBER: And hopefully, you like your job and you're not going to leave anytime soon. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, that's true enough. And let's go to Steven(ph), Steven with us from Perry, Oklahoma. STEVEN: Hello. Hi. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Good. STEVEN: I am actually looking for a job. I'm not unemployed right now, but I'm underemployed. I'm a pilot. And I've got an interview two days after Christmas, on the 27th with a commercial airline. So things are looking up for me hopefully. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, seeing the new rules out today, make sure you get some sleep. STEVEN: I will do, sir. Yeah, that's important so. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So what would the difference be? STEVEN: I'm sorry. What was that? NEAL CONAN, HOST: What is the difference between what you're doing now, and if you got this job, what would you be doing then? STEVEN: Currently, I'm working as a flight instructor, which is pretty standard for pilots that don't have a commercial job, to work as a flight instructor. But it's very - it's hourly pay. And so you get a week of bad weather, you don't really do much flying, and so you don't get paid a whole lot and you don't get guarantee. And so it's much better to be there because you get some kind of a minimum guarantee for your salary if you're working for a commercial airline. NEAL CONAN, HOST: That voice, I can hear it coming over the intercom now. STEVEN: Yeah. STEVEN: Well, hopefully, next time you're on a flight I'll be sitting up front. NEAL CONAN, HOST: All right, Steven. Good luck. STEVEN: Thanks. Bye. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And let's see if we can go to - this is Annie, Annie with us from Saxtons River, Vermont. ANNIE: Hi. How are you? NEAL CONAN, HOST: Good. Thanks. ANNIE: Well, my story is that I have a business as a freelance copywriter. And I've been hit by the economy, so I've been putting my feelers out looking for the right organization to work for. And I had a great interview on Monday with a company, a Web development company. And just a few minutes ago, in fact, I heard back from them. I had sent them a little thank you note, thanking them for the interview and asked them what their timeline was. And they said they will actually not be deciding until the first week of January because they're all in and out during the holidays. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And... ANNIE: It didn't surprise me, but... NEAL CONAN, HOST: So everything is kind of on hold for a little while. ANNIE: Yes. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And, Lauren Weber, do you think that's true for a lot of companies? LAUREN WEBER: It might be. You know, as the pilot was saying, some people are interviewing and hiring even in that week between Christmas and New Year's, when we probably assume everything is shut down. But I think this woman's experience is probably not atypical, but it's good that she interviewed before the holidays. I think a lot of companies, you know, they look at January or the new year like we do as individuals. You want to hit the ground running. You want to be energized for your goals for the year. And so I think, you know, a lot of companies do want to hire around this time probably because they have new projects that are getting underway, and they just want to be staffed up and ready for that. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Annie, good luck. ANNIE: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Appreciate the call. Lauren Weber, as you continue to talk to people about careers, few years ago, people going out of work would have said, wait a minute. I'm going to hold out for a job where I'm making close to if not as much money I was before. I want a job with benefits. I really don't want to take a job on commission. That's all changed hasn't it? LAUREN WEBER: Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't have that luxury. I mean, there aren't enough job openings to ensure that people are going to find their perfect job. The most recent statistics from the Bureau of Labor Statistics says that in October there were 3.3 million job openings on the last business day, and this is better than it was in the trough of the recession. But in the month that the recession began, or the month right before the recession began, there were 4.4 job openings. So, you know, we're not nearly up to the levels we were at before this - before the recession began. So, you know, people just can't be quite as choosy and selective as they would hope to be. LAUREN WEBER: Now, when you drill down into the numbers a little bit, there are certain fields and industries where the unemployment rate is much lower. So if you're an engineer or have - or an accountant, these are industries that seem to be doing really well, or fields that seem to be doing really well. I think for accountants the unemployment rate is somewhere - or for engineers, it's about half what it is for the national rate. So, you know, there, you can afford to be a little bit choosier. In fact, I've heard that in some cases salaries are actually going up, which is a sign of greater competition among employers for those people. LAUREN WEBER: But, you know, if you don't have some of those specialized skills that are really in demand, you know, you are looking for a job along with many, many others, and the competition is stiff. And for many people, that means choosing something that, in better times, they would have probably passed over. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Lauren Weber covers careers at The Wall Street Journal. You are listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And the numbers - you mentioned specific numbers, but the job numbers are taking up a bit. The unemployment figure is down to 8.6 percent, I think. But some of that is due to people who've just stopped looking. LAUREN WEBER: Yes. There are a lot of discouraged workers out there. Hopefully, they will - they are starting to see that things are actually picking up. Like, for instance, another data point that came up from the Bureau of Labor Statistics was that 1.9 million people quit their jobs in October, and that's about 500,000 or 400,000 up from the trough in that data point which was in January of 2010. So more people are feeling that - are either finding other positions or are feeling that they have a little bit of luxury of leaving where they are and hopefully finding something better. And most of those jobs, you know, will have to be replaced. Those employers will look for replacement workers for who was there. So, you know, some of the data really does indicate that things are looking better than they were at the worst point, and we are in recovery. Technically, we have been for awhile. It's been a very weak recovery. But even so, it's clear that there are more jobs out there. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And you talked about differences in terms of the kinds of jobs, engineers, for example, that people are looking for. What about regionally? Is – are some places in the country doing better than other? We just heard, for example, pretty good employment numbers for a place like Maryland. LAUREN WEBER: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I've seen a few studies recently that show the Midwest is actually really ticking up in terms of hiring. And that was somewhat surprising to me because we think of the coasts as being more dynamic economically and that, you know, more innovation would come from the coastal areas. But I think probably because manufacturing is doing OK, certain kinds of manufacturing, you know, Detroit is coming back, the car industry. So, you know, the Midwest seems to be popping more than other regions right now. LAUREN WEBER: You know, different - depending on different studies. You see different kinds of data. But in the ones about the records of people quitting, the most quits were actually in the South. And unfortunately, it's something you can't really drill down further into the numbers, so I can't say which industries people seem to be leaving their jobs or moving into other jobs in. But I was kind of interested to see that. It was a little bit surprising. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Here's an email from Terry(ph) in Franklin, Tennessee. Well, I've seen lately many firms posting jobs but in no hurry to hire. I've seen the same jobs posted and reposted for, in some cases over six months. I've also noted the same jobs seem to rotate around through various recruiters. So that's interesting. NEAL CONAN, HOST: In the meantime, let's see if we can go next to Leah(ph), Leah with us from Oakland. LEAH: Yes. Hello. This actually links in a bit to the oil discussion. I work for an oil reclamation and recycling company in - we're based out of Emeryville, California, but we're hiring in Oklahoma, Louisiana and Texas for a procurement specialist. We have a high volume of products down there, and unfortunately we're just not seeing the volume of applicants that we expected in a downturn economy. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Not seeing the - when you would think that everybody would be applying for a job. LEAH: Right. One would think. We get a lot of replies by email that are sort of joke replies, not including the resume, not including a cover letter, just people that seem to be ill-prepared to present themselves professionally in the market place. But we are not seeing the kind of quality applicants that we had expected in a downturn economy. With the kind of competition that's out there, we had thought that would really drive more qualified applicants to our door, and unfortunately that just doesn't happened. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, maybe they'll show up now, Leah. Thank you very much for the call. LEAH: I hope so. OK. Take care. NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is from Wiki(ph), who wrote us: One issue facing job seekers is employers looking for the purple squirrel. Purple squirrel is a term used by employment recruiters to describe an unlikely job applicant with the exactly right education, experience and qualifications that perfectly fit a job's multifaceted requirements. One, in theory, this prized purple squirrel can handle all of the extensive variety of responsibilities of a job description would allow businesses to function with fewer workers. So are - Lauren Weber, are employers being a little picky? LAUREN WEBER: Yeah, there are. It's funny, I've never heard that term purple squirrel, but I'll have to add it to my lexicon. You know, this relates to a couple of the recent calls. You know, I do think sometimes employers figure, well, there are so many people out there looking. Eventually, the perfect person is going to walk through the door. So maybe they are, you know, hiring very slowly or just waiting on jobs, waiting on filling jobs. And in terms of what Leah said, there are a lot of - employers also complain about what's called the skills gap. There are lots of unemployed people, but not the people with the right specialized skills, and this may be an issue for companies. They may have to invest more on training in order to create the employees that they're looking for. NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is from Patricia in Laramie: An employer scheduled an interview for December 30th. Some higher-end employers are pushing things out to January. After searching for a year, I just got a job offer today for a new position with a conservation organization. Congratulations. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Lauren Weber, thanks for your time. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

Many job seekers assume they won't make much progress in their search over the holidays. Not so, says Lauren Weber of The Wall Street Journal. Weber explains why job hunters may want to consider keeping their search alive through the holiday season. Read Lauren Weber's Wall Street Journal piece, "Looking For Work? Keep It Up Through The Holidays"

Viele Arbeitssuchende gehen davon aus, dass sie über die Feiertage keine großen Fortschritte bei der Suche machen werden. Nicht so, sagt Lauren Weber vom Wall Street Journal. Weber erklärt, warum Jobsuchende ihre Suche über die Feiertage aufrechterhalten sollten. Lesen Sie Lauren Webers Artikel im Wall Street Journal \"Suche Arbeit? Mache bei den Feiertage weiter so\"

许多求职者认为，他们在假期找工作不会有太大进展。《华尔街日报》的劳伦·韦伯认为事实并非如此。韦伯解释了为什么求职者在假日期间坚持找工作。打开《华尔街日报》，读一读劳伦·韦伯的报道《找工作？假期不要停》。

IRA FLATOW, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. If you're scanning the Milky Way for life, where do you look? Well, probably someplace not too different from planet Earth, right? So you want to find a planet about the same size as Earth to increase the chance it has a rocky surface, with oceans of course rather than being a giant ball of gas like Jupiter, and it should be just the right distance from its star, in what they call the Goldilocks Zone: hot enough to have liquid water but not so hot that the surface has completely scorched. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Well, this month, scientists using the Kepler Space Telescope announced the discovery of exoplanets that fit into each of these categories. How long before they find Earth's twin, a planet that fits both categories? And once they do, what's the next step to investigate whether or not it might harbor life? IRA FLATOW, HOST: Here to talk about it is William Borucki. He is principal investigator for the Kepler Mission and a space scientist at the NASA-Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, California. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY. WILLIAM BORUCKI: Hello, Ira, it's nice to be here. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Let's talk about these three new planets, Kepler-22B, -20E and -F. What's so special about them? WILLIAM BORUCKI: Well, clearly the goal of the mission is to determine the frequency of Earth-size planets in and near the habitable zone of stars like the sun. And these are a major step toward that goal. First of all, Kepler-22B is a planet that is in the habitable zone of its star. It's the right temperature, but it's probably a little bit big. It's about 2.4 times the size of the Earth, and when we look at that, our suspicion is it probably is mostly a water planet, or maybe it has a lot of gas. WILLIAM BORUCKI: But we don't think it's a solid, rocky planet. It's in the habitable zone. Any moons that have - which might also - would also be in the habitable zone. But the other aspect of what Kepler has found this week are two planets that are Earth-sized. WILLIAM BORUCKI: So they are the right size, and we believe they are probably rocky, but they're too close to their star. They're too hot. So they're not in a habitable zone. So we're sort of finding planets all around the air that we want, and little by little, year after year, as Kepler gets better at this and finds more planets, we're getting closer to the major goal, Earth-sized planets in a habitable zone and in particular enough of them so that we can get an idea how frequent they are. WILLIAM BORUCKI: Are they common in the galaxy, or are they very rare? Because that's the real question, not just finding one or two but finding out are they common. If they're common, probably lots of life in our galaxy. If they're very infrequent, you know, we may be alone. So the frequency is important, and to get at the frequency, we've got to find planets in a habitable zone that are probably the size of the Earth or maybe up to twice the size of the Earth. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And we're up to, what, 2,300 exoplanets that have been found so far? WILLIAM BORUCKI: We found some 2,326 candidates. These are stars that show us signals that look like planets. But we have to do ground-based observations to check them out, to make sure that it's not a small star crossing a big star or two stars in a background eclipsing one another. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And so of those 2,300 candidates, we've only been able to confirm 33 so far. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And I've heard that the Kepler satellite has been quoted - has been dubbed your baby. Would that be accurate? WILLIAM BORUCKI: Well, I certainly advocated it starting in 1984 and built some photometers and worked with headquarters to find a mission that we could launch. And so over the years, I and Dave Koch and several others have worked to build this mission, and we were so delighted to find in 2001 that it was accepted as a mission. WILLIAM BORUCKI: It got launched in 2009, after a lot of work building this and testing it, and it's worked beautifully ever since. IRA FLATOW, HOST: So between 1986 and 2001, many years, you're telling me you got turned down all those times? WILLIAM BORUCKI: Well, in 1984, I wrote the first paper on what we should be able to do, and I started building some photometers to prove it could be done. The missions that would allow this Kepler to fly didn't get started until 1992. And so we proposed in '92, in '94, '96, '98, and each time they turned us down because they thought it would be too expensive, or the detectors couldn't possibly work, or no one had done photometry of tens of thousands of stars simultaneously. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And Kepler does 150,000 stars simultaneously. So we had to go through many different steps to prove that this would work before we got permission to launch. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And look what they would have missed if they hadn't launched it. WILLIAM BORUCKI: Yes, we wouldn't know anything about all these small planets. We're finding planets as small as Mars, a few that might be even smaller than Mars. We're finding, you know, thousands around all kinds of stars. So it's just been an enormous bounty of planets. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And people in the United States and people in Europe are all getting together, looking at these objects, trying to confirm them and writing lots and lots of papers. And we'll be rewriting the books on astronomy because what we've found is not what we expected. IRA FLATOW, HOST: What do you mean it's not what you expected? WILLIAM BORUCKI: Well, everyone expected that we would find small planets close to their stars and big planets further away, just like in our solar system. That's not what we find. We find lots of big planets that are close to their stars, and we find planets, you know, whole groups of planets, six planets well inside the orbit of Mercury, very, very close to their stars, very, very hot, planets that are hotter than - as hot as molten iron, for example. WILLIAM BORUCKI: So just a huge range of planets bigger than Jupiter, planets smaller than Mars. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And you find some that - some of these last two that they orbit the - they orbit their sun in, what, six days? WILLIAM BORUCKI: That's right. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Wow. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And one that we found a little bit earlier called Kepler-10B orbits in less than a day, which means that if you got up in the morning, you know, it would be spring, and the trees would be blooming, and by noon it would be summer, and, you know, the leaves would be - you'd go out and pick tomatoes in the evening. Fall would occur, all the leaves would fall off, and that night it would be winter. WILLIAM BORUCKI: So that, you know, years are one day, six days, a month. We find a huge range like that. Now, planets that close to a star of course are so hot that they couldn't possibly have life, but what I'm saying is that you have to imagine things so different on the planets that we're finding. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And you imagine that from what you're finding, there's got to be some planet like ours in that Goldilocks Zone, right? WILLIAM BORUCKI: That's right, but, you know, to be in the Goldilocks Zone, for stars like the sun, the Earth is in a habitable zone, by definition, and it takes this Earth one year to go around the sun. So that gives you a first transit, first one and second one, and every year you get another transit. We need a minimum of three times to cross the star so the star dims. And that dimming tells you how big the planet is, and the repetition tells you how far away the planet is from the star. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And that tells you whether or not it's in the habitable zone because if it's close to the star, it's too hot. So for a planet like the Earth, around a star like the sun, it takes three years for us to make the measurements we need before we say oh, this is an interesting candidate, let's see if we can prove it's a real planet. WILLIAM BORUCKI: The spacecraft has not been operating three years yet. So those small planets at the habitable zone of the stars like the sun, you know, we will not have found yet. We're finding planets in the habitable zone, and we've found 48 candidates in the habitable zone so far, but they're stars smaller than the sun, cooler than the sun. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And so we're finding those, but they're not exactly sun-like. They're a little bit cooler and smaller. And our hope, then, is since we're finding those, and the stars aren't very much different, in the coming year or so, we'll be finding more planets like the Earth in a habitable zone of stars much more like that of the sun. IRA FLATOW, HOST: If you're finding only planets that pass in front of their stars, so you can see the shadow from them, or - how many stars are you missing? WILLIAM BORUCKI: That's a very good question because for us to see the transit, the planets moving between the star and ourselves, you can calculate that the chance of doing that is equal to the diameter of the star over the diameter of the orbit. WILLIAM BORUCKI: Now for the planets with periods of the order of a few days or a few weeks, that's about 10 percent. So we would miss 90 percent of such planets. But if planets are out with orbital periods closer to a year, closer to the distance from the Earth to the sun, then we miss about 99 and a half percent. So every one that we find, there must be at least 99 more out there. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And so we use that geometrical correction to say we have found a certain number, and we can predict how many are out there. IRA FLATOW, HOST: And how close is the closest one that might, you know, be close to an Earth-kind of planet? WILLIAM BORUCKI: Now, are you speaking of close in terms of size, temperature... IRA FLATOW, HOST: To the Earth. I mean, how close to the Earth, the distance to the Earth? WILLIAM BORUCKI: The distance? OK, fine. I think we have found some that are within 50 light-years. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Fifty light-years? WILLIAM BORUCKI: Yes. Now, these are planets. These are not Earth. They're just planets. But if you're saying I want to find an Earth, and I want to find it in a habitable zone, we haven't found any Earth yet in a habitable zone. We have found objects bigger than the Earth in a habitable zone, we found Earth-size too close to their stars to be in the habitable zone. WILLIAM BORUCKI: But the stars we look at are generally - for example, Kepler-22B, the one that's in the habitable zone that we announced, that's 600 light-years away. Now, the two Earth-sized planets that we found that we announced, that's 1,000 light-years away. WILLIAM BORUCKI: So those are - basically Kepler is a probe. It looks out into the galaxy and says what do we - what's out there? Future missions will look at just the closest stars because they'll have to look at the whole sky then. We look at just one portion, a big portion, but it's not the whole sky. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Will there be future missions? WILLIAM BORUCKI: Oh, I'm sure there will be because... IRA FLATOW, HOST: What makes you - with the way the Congress has got budgets going these days, what makes you so sure? WILLIAM BORUCKI: I believe that in Europe and the United States, we'll look seriously at our problems, and we will solve them and that we will get back to a much more productive, happy time in the future. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Well, you know, that's optimistic, and we can certainly hope for that, but there are no plans for another Kepler on our drawing board now is what you're saying. WILLIAM BORUCKI: We have quite a few missions that people have ideas for and have been proposing. The problem with two that come to mind immediately is something called TESS, which is a terrestrial planet-finder, which is for the nearest stars. It actually finds bigger planets than Earth, but it looks at the whole sky to see which ones have planets. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And then the Europeans have one called PLATO, which does the same thing. So each continent, basically, has ideas. But the ones that both Europeans and the people of the United States are really looking forward to are ones that look at the atmospheres of these planets because if you find that these planets have atmospheres - and we don't know that ahead of time - that's important for life. WILLIAM BORUCKI: If the atmospheres have CO2 and water, that's important for plants. The CO2 is what they breathe, water is what they respire. So if you have plants, you could have life, and maybe the plants are building oxygen, in which case you might have even higher forms of life. WILLIAM BORUCKI: And so these future missions are designed to find the composition of the atmospheres. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Well, we'll have to look forward to them, and we want to wish you good luck and thank you for coming on to talk with us today. WILLIAM BORUCKI: You're most welcome, my pleasure. IRA FLATOW, HOST: Have a happy holiday. William Borucki is principal investigator for Kepler Mission, space scientist at NASA-Ames Research Center in Moffett Field. We're going to take a break. When we come back, the war on cancer turns 40 today. Make you feel old? Harold Varmus is here to talk about how far we've come, where we're headed. Stay with us. We'll be right back after this break. IRA FLATOW, HOST: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR.

By tracking the blinking light of distant stars, NASA's Kepler space telescope has identified the first Earth-sized exoplanets, and another which orbits its star in the "Goldilocks zone," where liquid water—and possibly life—could exist. Principal investigator William Borucki talks about the newly discovered worlds.

Durch die Verfolgung des blinkenden Lichts entfernter Sterne hat das Kepler-Weltraumteleskop der NASA die ersten erdgroßen Exoplaneten identifiziert und einen weiteren, der seinen Stern in der \"Goldlöckchen-Zone\" umkreist, wo flüssiges Wasser - und möglicherweise Leben - existieren könnte. Hauptermittler William Borucki spricht über die neu entdeckten Welten.

通过追踪遥远恒星闪烁的光线，美国宇航局的开普勒太空望远镜已经确定了第一颗地球大小的系外行星，以及另一颗围绕其恒星运行“金发姑娘带”的行星，那里可能存在液态水——可能还有生命。首席研究员威廉·博鲁基谈论新发现的世界。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Are you still looking for your dream job, new home, and a good man? Journalist Amy DuBois Barnett says women of color should stop waiting and aim straight for what they want. Her new book is called "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More." FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hey, Amy. How are you? Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): I'm great. Happy to be here. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. So to be honest, there are enough self-help and motivational books in this world to fill the oceans to the skies. Why did you write one and what makes yours different? Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): You know, I've made it my personal mission and message to help women move their lives forward, and I don't think that we frequently hear the message that success is a mindset. And my book is really all about getting your mind right and preparing yourself to achieve not just in your professional life, but in your personal life. I think that there's so much that women can do if we just walk through the world expecting it to happen. And I'm a living embodiment of that, you know. I always tell people if I can do it, anybody can, because I went through such a down period in my life that we can talk about. And I want to take the lessons that I've learned and spread the formula of success and achievement to as many women as I can. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So let's talk a little bit about your path. You were editor-in-chief of Honey, an urban women's magazine, editor of Teen People, deputy editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar now. That seems like a dream life in and of itself. What - you mentioned a down period in your life, what was that and how did you get through it? Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): You know, when I was 22 years old, my mother passed away. Well, first of all, I had a very awkward growing-up experience. I was not always, remotely attractive. So that was my growing-up teenage years. And then, my mother passed away when I was 22 years old. She was my best friend in the world and it really threw me for quite sometime. And at that time in my life, I was working in an industry that I hated. I was living in a basement apartment. I had no money. I gained 30 pounds. And I just had no clue how I was going to move myself forward, what I was going to do to make a change. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): And one day, I looked around at my life and I realized that nobody was coming to save me. You know, not a family member, no friend, no man, not because they didn't love me but because this is my life, you know. It is our life. We have to take ownership and realize that we alone have responsibility for creating the life that we want. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): So for me, it was really a matter of, kind of, taking ownership and taking responsibility, and it made me do a 180 in terms of how I think about my life. But that was the very awkward situation I went through. And from that moment forward, I started to make decisions based on what makes me happy, not what makes other people happy. And it changed everything I've done since. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what would you say was the spark? I mean, you have all these things that going on in your life, but was there a moment that crystallized for you when you said, I'm just not going to take this anymore? Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): You know, it was a very cathartic - it was a moment, you know. It was literally a moment when I was walking around my room and I looked at a picture of my mother and she was very much of a groundbreaker. She was the first African-American woman to run a major research university in the country, and she was an adventurer, and very much my inspiration. And I looked at her and I thought about the fact that she passed away she was 49 years old, and I realized, well, what am I doing? You know, this is my life right now. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): I think so many of us fall into the trap of waiting for life to begin, you know, oh, life will start when I get that man or I get that job or I get that house or whatever it is. But, really, this is life right now, as you and I are talking, as people are listening - this is life. So it's up to us to, kind of, realize that this day and this form(ph) will never happen again and what are we going to do to make it count? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You have a lot of celebrities in the book. You've got Sanaa Lathan, Venus Williams, India.Arie. Give me one story that one of them told you that inspires you. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): I love the women in my book. I really have to say. My celebrity role models are just that for me, just women that I think are so successful and so amazing. I love all of their stories, you know, Gayle King was great, Mo'Nique. I think, possibly, my favorite was Sanaa Lathan, who was very intimate and very honest with me and talked about how she used be very afraid. She used to let fear dominate her life. And one time, she got a ticket to go to an event in Hollywood that was honoring very, you know, important women in her industry, and she was afraid to go because she only got one ticket. She would not be able to bring anybody and she thought she will feel out of place and alone and wouldn't know who to talk to. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): And as it turns out, she went to the event, forged all of these new relationships, had an amazing time, and resolved that she would not let fear dictate her life, and that she would be confident that the universe would support risks. And I just think that that's such an important message for all of us, particularly women of color, because we are so frequently don't have faith that if we step out of our comfort zone, we will be supported in the risks that we take. And if you embrace fear as a sign of personal growth, if you recognize that stepping out of your comfort zone is how you become everything your meant to be, then it changes your whole attitude. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, you come from a background - you mentioned that your mom was an ace academic. You, yourself, are very well educated. You're talking to celebrities. There are people, people who may pick up your book, who are going to be beaten down in very specific and dramatic ways - maybe on the verge of bankruptcy, losing a home, getting a divorce. Do you think the people can relate to celebrities, to people like you, who've had different kinds of opportunities? Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): Sure. Sure. There is not a single person in the public eye you can look at who has not had their own set of trials and tribulations and obstacles and dramas and things that they've been through to get to where they are today. We are all the same. I think that's a really fundamental lesson, too, in reading my book and listening to the lives of the people that I interview. You now, again, if I can do it, anybody can. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): You know, for a long time, I was unsuccessful in my career. I was overweight. I had no money. I went through a divorce. I lost my mother. You know, this is not a charmed life that I've had. So, you know, I am taking the lessons that I've learned and I'm telling people that this is my life. This is what happened to me, and here is how I pulled myself out of my place of depression and insecurity. And I turned my life around and look what I've achieved, and you can do it, too. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let's talk about India.Arie. She talks about being spiritually grounded in the music industry and what does she have to offer. Her lyrics have inspired a lot of people, for example. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): Well, I just thought she was amazing, you know. I interviewed her in my, like you said, in the spirituality chapter largely because I appreciate her worldview and her - the generosity of her spirituality. I like the fact that she is very accepting of everybody's forms of connecting with a higher power, which I think is the way to walk through the world. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): You know, I personally believe that the more accepting we are of other people, the more we are ultimately connecting to our higher power. And she talks about how she doesn't necessarily have to talk to God at church or in a spiritual building, but that she does it all the time. She prays all the time. She connects with her higher power all time, but she does it wherever she is. And I think that that is such a valuable lesson, you know, try to connect with your higher power every day, but that does not necessarily mean going to church, nor does that mean judging other people for their specific beliefs. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What about money? You talk about screw-you money. What's that? Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): That is very important to me, Farai. That is a very key message in my book. I am a big advocate of women protecting themselves and being independent and having their own savings. I really don't like it when we, sort of, you know, wait for a man to come along and rescue us from our bills, or we're waiting for somebody to buy us the car, or the minute we have a few hundred dollars we go out and we buy that expensive bag. You know, it really is not going to help us as women long term if we don't have any means for protecting ourselves and supporting ourselves. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): And when I say screw-you money, I mean that if you are ever in a personal or professional situation that you find uncomfortable, abusive, that you just don't like, you know, your savings, your money, frankly, is your independence. That's your ability to push back from the table or whatever it is and say, you know what, screw you. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Amy… Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): I don't need this, and that is what that money means. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. We're going to have to leave it there. Thanks so much, Amy. Ms. AMY DUBOIS BARNETT (Author, "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More"): Thank very much for having me. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Amy DuBois Barnett is the deputy editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar magazine, and her new book is "Get Yours: The Girlfriend's Guide to Having Everything You Ever Dreamed Of And More." She joined me from our New York studios.

Magazine editor and writer Amy DuBois Barnett tells women of color they can have it all in her book, Get Yours! Barnett shares how she became one of the most prominent black women in the magazine industry.

Die Zeitschriftenredakteurin und Autorin Amy DuBois Barnett zeigt in ihrem Buch Hol dir deine! (Get Yours!), dass farbige Frauen alles haben können. Barnett erzählt, wie sie zu einer der prominentesten schwarzen Frauen in der Zeitschriftenbranche wurde.

杂志编辑兼作家艾米·杜波依斯·巴内特在她的书《得你所想》中告诉有色人种的女性，她们可以拥有一切。巴内特分享了她是如何成为杂志行业最杰出的黑人女性之一的。

DAVID GREENE, HOST: Big news here around LA. Students attending school in Los Angeles today will find something different - teachers in the classrooms. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: A six-day teacher strike is over. The educators were demanding better pay, smaller class sizes and other changes. Support for this deal was overwhelming, although different teachers see different implications for them. NPR asked a few what they thought. JENNIFER LIEBE-ZELAZNY: I am actually pretty excited about our new, tentative agreement. TERESA RIVAS-NASOQEQE: Feeling a little uneasy and not fully satisfied with the agreement. JENNIFER LIEBE-ZELAZNY: We are going to have smaller class sizes. That's big. JESENIA CHAVEZ: For my class setting, the number of students actually increased. TERESA RIVAS-NASOQEQE: But I'm excited in moving forward to see what else we can accomplish as a collective. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Those are teachers Jennifer Liebe-Zelazny, Teresa Rivas-Nasoqeqe (ph) and Jesenia Chavez. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. Kyle Stokes is the education reporter from member station KPCC and joins me here in our studios at NPR West. Kyle, good morning. You've been covering a six-day strike, and it's over. KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: Oh, boy, I'm tired. DAVID GREENE, HOST: I bet you are. Well - so it sounds like from those voices that there are still some - a lot of questions, but there is a deal. Teachers are going to get back to the classroom. What is in the deal? What are the details here? KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: Well - so the deal includes a raise for teachers. That wasn't a big question. They had been looking for a 6 1/2 percent raise, but they've been - it looked like they were going to accept the 6 percent raise the district has been offering for months. It also looks like the teachers are going to get the hiring of new staff of nurses, of counselors and school librarians that they had been asking for, for instance. The union says that the district will hire enough nurses now to guarantee a nurse in every school five days a week, which is something that not a lot of schools have right now. Coming up in just a few years is when that's going to be in place. KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: The big breakthrough, David, though, was on class sizes, that the district agreed to try and hit some very ambitious targets for reducing class sizes here in Los Angeles schools. But they're going to do it over 3 1/2 years instead of the kind of one-year window that they'd been trying to hit before. KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: The other piece of the class size deal is that the school district gave up the power that it had in the old contract to essentially raise class sizes almost whenever they want because class size reduction is very expensive. And the district felt like they needed this flexibility in order to save money in the event of a fiscal crisis. The district gave that up, and the union found that old provision very toxic. They find that concession to be a huge one. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. A lot more nurses, guarantees of smaller class size - these things cost money. The district had been saying they don't have the money. Did they come up with more money? What happened? KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: Well - so part of this is still being costed out. It's still not entirely clear how much the entire deal is going to spend. And that's going to be calculated over the next couple of days. But on the class size and staffing pieces, part of the way that the district is going to pay for it is by spreading this out over 3 1/2 years, again, instead of that one-year window we had been talking about before. KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: But what also appears to be happening, David, is that the district is taking what Mayor Eric Garcetti called the leap of faith, that the funding is going to materialize somewhere, that either the state is going to come in down the road with more funding, that maybe local voters are going to raise their own property taxes. It is that leap of faith that seems to be what's going to move forward here. And that's going to be the way that the district is going to make this work is what it appears. DAVID GREENE, HOST: It feels like a big moment of coming together. Is that what teachers and others involved are saying to you? Or is there still some sort of uncertainty out there? KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: A big moment of coming together, yeah. There's a lot of relief certainly among parents that this is - that this deal is done. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Sure. KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: Teachers obviously feeling very empowered, like they got a lot done with this deal, and some actually, a minority apparently, felt like they maybe could have gotten more. But we saw overwhelming majorities vote in favor of this tentative agreement and look like they're ready to accept it. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. Strike over in Los Angeles, although teachers in Denver are planning to strike beginning on Monday. So we're going to have to keep our eyes on that. Kyle Stokes from member station KPCC covers education here. Kyle, thanks. KYLE STOKES, BYLINE: You're welcome. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: This week, the Senate will vote on two bills to end the partial government shutdown. DAVID GREENE, HOST: That's right, two bills. One of them is backed by Republicans. The other is backed by Democrats. What the bills have in common is that neither is expected to actually pass. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell spoke for the Republican option. MITCH MCCONNELL: The proposal outlined by President Trump is the only one currently before us that can be signed by the president and immediately reopen the government. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Democratic leader Chuck Schumer said that bill has no chance. CHUCK SCHUMER: The president's proposal is one-sided, harshly partisan and was made in bad faith. DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK. Now Democrats, then, have backed the same measure that passed the Senate by unanimous consent back in December, a bill that has no funding for a border wall. That one died after President Trump said he wouldn't sign it. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR White House correspondent Tamara Keith is following this story. Tamara, good morning. TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Good morning. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: How are these bills different, other than one having border funding - border wall funding and the other not? TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Well, that's the big one. But the other difference is, really, one is simply a clean bill to fund the government for a short period of time. It would basically - the Democratic bill basically reopens the government for a couple of weeks to allow negotiations to continue. President Trump's bill, the Republican bill, is based on the remarks that the president delivered over the weekend. It includes wall funding, other border security funds. It also would have a temporary extension for the DACA program for young people known as DREAMers, as well as some other extensions for other immigrant groups. And it makes some pretty significant changes to the way the asylum works. And that, Democrats say, is a poison pill that is built into that measure. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That - it's one of the parts that Chuck Schumer would refer to as being bad faith. So does voting on these two bills, neither of which seems likely to get 60 votes and pass, advance the process in any way? TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Well, sometimes taking votes that fail proves what can pass and what can't pass, and then they can move on. So in that sense, it might advance things. I mean, at least they're voting on something - right? - which they haven't done much of on the Senate side or any of on the Senate side as long as this shutdown has been going on. But does it resolve the underlying problem? No. The underlying problem is that President Trump doesn't want to end the shutdown - that he said he would be proud to own - until he has funding for a border wall. And Democrats say they don't want to start negotiating over a border wall until the government is reopened. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Are lawmakers or the White House feeling increasing pressure? TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: I think that they are. The pain is growing from the shutdown as it continues. Admiral Karl Schultz, the commandant of the U.S. Coast Guard, posted a video last night on Twitter. He says we're five-plus weeks into this government lapse, and your anxiety and your non-pay, you as members of the armed forces should not be expected to shoulder this burden. KARL SCHULTZ: I find it unacceptable that Coast Guard men and women have to rely on food pantries and donations to get through day-to-day life as service members. TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: And then he made sure that they knew about assistance that's available. That is not a good look. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: No, hearing a commandant say that this is an unacceptable situation. Tamara, thanks so much. TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: You're welcome. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That is NPR's Tamara Keith. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Now, the shutdown is also affecting the Federal Bureau of Investigation. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. Thomas O'Connor is the president of the FBI Agents Association. He says that the shutdown is making it more difficult for the agency to do its job to protect the people of the country from criminals and terrorists. It sounds like the shutdown is affecting a lot of important operations at the agency, including going after terrorists, drug traffickers, also gangs. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR justice reporter Ryan Lucas is here to tell us more. He's in our studios in Washington. Ryan, good morning. RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Good morning. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So how is it that this shutdown affects the FBI? RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Well, according to the FBI Agents Association, the impact of the partial shutdown is pretty significant on them. The association represents around 14,000 active and retired FBI special agents, so they have representation members in all of the field offices across the country. And the group released a report yesterday that outlines how this lack of funding is hindering the FBI's work. It's based off of anonymous comments from members. And they say that it's having an impact on everything from training to operations and investigations. And the kinds of investigations that are taking a hit are serious. We're talking about sex trafficking, crimes against children, counterterrorism, cybersecurity, violent gangs, drug traffickers, everything. The Agents Association also says that this may have a long-term impact on the FBI on its ability to recruit and retain the kind of talent that it needs to do its job. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, sure, because it's embarrassing to have people not paid. But I want to understand this a little better. I presume that a lot of FBI agents are considered essential personnel. They're not being paid, but they're told to show up to work, meaning they can investigate things. But they're sending word they're unable to investigate even though they're on the job. Why would that be? RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Well, one thing that stands out in this report again and again is agents saying that they no longer have the money to pay confidential sources who are critical to their investigations. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, who are not necessarily willing to wait till the end of the shutdown to get paid, I suppose. RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: When sources aren't getting paid, sources can dry up. Sources can go silent. And these sorts of sources are used in a lot of the work that the FBI does, stuff that I mentioned earlier - the counterterrorism cases, counterintelligence, gang, drugs. One example from the report comes from an agent who says that they're investigating a street gang that's pushing a lot of methamphetamine and heroin. And the agent says that their probe has been undermined because they don't have money to pay their confidential sources. And they also don't have money to make controlled purchases of drugs, which is something that they often use in narcotics investigations. Now... STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: I'm just imagining an undercover officer having to stand there and say, listen; I can pay you for this. I just need to wait a couple weeks or maybe a little longer. No, go on, go on. I'm sorry. RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: (Laughter) Now, you also have to remember that the FBI doesn't work on its own. It can't do all of what it needs to do in order to carry out investigation on its own. It works closely with state and local law enforcement. The Agents Association says that in some cases that sort of cooperation has been hampered because they can't pay those partners for work on their joint investigations. And they also say that grand jury subpoenas are being delayed because there are no funds for them, and staff at U.S. attorneys' offices are furloughed. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: How are unpaid agents personally affected? RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: It's really hurting them, according to the FBI Agents Association. There are even food banks that have been set up at some of the field offices to try to help people make ends meet. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. Ryan, thanks so much, really appreciate it. RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Thank you. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Ryan Lucas.

A Unified School District and the teachers' union reach a tentative deal. Competing bills to end the shutdown head to the Senate floor. The FBI Agents Association warns shutdown hampers operations.

Ein Unified School District und die Lehrergewerkschaft erzielen eine vorläufige Einigung. Konkurrierende Gesetzesentwürfe zur Beendigung vom Shutdown kommen in den Senat. Die FBI-Agentenvereinigung warnt, dass der Shutdown die Arbeit behindert.

统一学区和教师工会达成了一项临时协议。为结束政府关门提出的两项竞争议案提交至参议院。美国联邦调查局特工协会警告说，政府关门阻碍行动。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: President Trump conceded a small defeat with words that were, for him, fairly measured. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: He said he would delay the State of the Union speech. Days ago, you will recall, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she would, quote, "suggest" that he delay it because of the partial government shutdown, or else submit the speech in writing. In a rambling letter yesterday, the president said he would do that speech anyway. Pelosi then wrote him again, saying he was disinvited. And on Twitter last night, the president said that is her prerogative. He said no other room besides the House chamber will do, so he will not try to find some alternate venue. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Amid this exchange of messages, protesters stood outside Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's office. UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) Stop the shutdown. Stop the shutdown. We need a paycheck. We need a paycheck. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: They're chanting, we need a paycheck. The Senate does plan to vote on two bills that would fund the government today, although both are expected to fail. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR lead political editor Domenico Montanaro is with us this morning. Hey, Domenico. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So President Trump, as we know, not someone who backs down easily, but I guess he didn't really have a choice - right? - if Nancy Pelosi said he is not invited to her House. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Well, he's always got a choice. But, like you said, he's not somebody who's really known to back down. He's known to escalate rather than take the temperature down. But he did tweet out that he would do the address when the shutdown was over. He said, I'm not looking for an alternative venue because there is no venue that can compete with the history, tradition and importance of the House chamber and said he looks forward to doing it in the, quote, "near future." No sign on when. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: But it's a remarkable moment. And, you know, look; the politics of this - there's a confluence of polling that's been out that's shown his numbers getting worse and worse during the shutdown. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. So does that mean - because his poll numbers are dropping, is the president bearing the bulk of the political cost of the shutdown? DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: So far, he absolutely is. There were three polls that were out yesterday from The Associated Press, from CBS News and from Fox, by the way, an outlet that the president watches a lot but does good polling. And all of them showed more people blaming the president for the shutdown than Democrats. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: And the Fox poll, for example, found that three-quarters of people found that the shutdown was more of a problem than the border. And those are numbers that he has to be seeing. In the AP poll, his approval rating was just at 34 percent, which is really a low for him in that poll, down eight points from a month earlier and really bad - doing very badly with independents, 69 percent disapproving of the job he's doing. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Meanwhile, federal workers are expected to miss their second paycheck tomorrow. I mean, people are really suffering in this moment. There is political pressure on both sides. The Senate's got these two bills that they're going to bring up. They're both expected to fail. So where's the opening to end this? DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Well, the president has said, so far, that he's not budging on a wall. Democrats say they have a reason for not caving either. Take a listen to what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said about that yesterday. NANCY PELOSI: There is serious and justified concern that this president would shut down the government anytime he does not get his way legislatively. That is why we must hold the line. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: And that's a line that you've heard from Democrats all day yesterday. So Democrats, like she said, want to hold the line. The Senate is going to vote this afternoon on these two proposals - one on the president's proposal for the $5.7 billion for a wall for temporary immigrant protections - that's expected to fail - and one from Democrats to simply open the government for a few weeks to negotiate. That's also expected to fail. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: But a little bit of news here. NPR's Susan Davis reports that Democrats are prepared to make a counterproposal to the president that would spend a significant amount of money on the border, but not on a wall. We'll see if Republicans blink. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. NPR's Domenico Montanaro. Thanks, Domenico. We appreciate it. DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: You're so welcome. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. So question - what do actual voters across America think of the shutdown? STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Past shutdowns have not always had much effect on elections. Republicans shut down the government in 2013 over Obamacare, for example. It was a very unpopular shutdown, but they still won the Senate in 2014. In 2019, though, the shutdown has gone much longer. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. NPR's Don Gonyea has been in Ohio this week getting reactions from voters about the standoff. Don, good morning. DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Good morning. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Where are you? DON GONYEA, BYLINE: I'm in Chillicothe. It's about an hour south of Columbus. This is a red part of the state - not deep, deep red, but red. And in Chillicothe, there are precincts that vote Democratic as well. But when you talk to people here, the first thing you notice is that the partisan divide holds. DON GONYEA, BYLINE: So Democrats I talk to say this thing is all on Trump - period. He owns it - that he's chosen a very unpopular path on the shutdown and that polls back that up. And they complain that Trump's demand for funding of the wall leaves just no room to negotiate. DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Talk to Republicans, it gets a little more interesting. They're still with Trump, many as much as ever, but it's more complicated. And some will wonder, you know, what the president's plan is here. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What more do they tell you, those Republican voters? I mean, when they say it's more complicated, what does that mean? DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Well, let's meet a few of them. Greg Rouse (ph) - I talked to him downtown yesterday. He's a government worker, but he works for the county. So he is working, but he says he knows people on furlough. He is a bit confused about Trump's strategy to, you know, to double down on the border wall after Republicans lost control of the House. GREG ROUSE: I'm a little bit frustrated, but I'm not sure towards him exactly. I'm still a strong Trump supporter. DON GONYEA, BYLINE: So I also talked to Fran Burdette (ph), who works in a law office in Chillicothe. She voted for Trump in 2016 but is quick to say, not enthusiastically. She does not like the way the president is handling these negotiations. FRAN BURDETTE: I truly believe that we do need a wall if you look at all the statistics, but I don't think this is the right way to do it. The thing that worries me the most is the people that are not getting paid. And these people are living from paycheck to paycheck, you know, especially, like, the Coast Guard and different places, people on food stamps - all that kind of stuff. You know, they need help. DON GONYEA, BYLINE: And I asked Burdette if she still supports Trump, and she said that she does. But then I said, can you look ahead to 2020 a bit for me? Will you be voting for him again? And she gave me a look, and she said, it is way too early to think about whether she's going to do that. So she's, you know, kind of wavering. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah, interesting. I mean, you talked with a cross-section of people there. Are people really thinking about 2020, or are they more like her and saying, you know, just give me some time? DON GONYEA, BYLINE: They're certainly watching the debate in Washington over the wall very closely. 2020 has crept into their consciousness whether they like it or not. And some are quick to say, hey, I voted for the president, and I'm with him again. But again, there is an awareness that a choice is coming up, and it's going to be on them before they know it. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And that the shutdown is playing into their calculus, at least a little bit. DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Absolutely. Absolutely. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. NPR national political correspondent Don Gonyea. Thanks, Don. DON GONYEA, BYLINE: A pleasure. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So there are two people claiming to be the president of Venezuela right now. And as you'd imagine, there's all kinds of chaos as a result. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Nicolas Maduro was re-elected president, but the Socialist government that's been in power for many, many years has been accused of rigging elections and also changing the rules when they lose. And the leader of the legislature, Juan Guaido, has declared himself the interim president. JUAN GUAIDO: (Speaking Spanish). STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: He's saying that he's the national executive in charge of Venezuela. He was speaking to a massive crowd in the capital, Caracas, yesterday. The United States, Canada and much of Latin America have formally recognized him as Venezuela's leader. Now, Maduro, the other leader, responded by expelling U.S. diplomats. But the U.S. has said they will not leave because the legitimate president did not ask them to go. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. NPR's Philip Reeves is in Caracas covering all this. Phil, one country, two presidents. What is happening right now? What are people telling you? PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Well, what's going on is a major crisis with serious international implications. I want to step back just a second because this is kind of complicated. Venezuela's opposition refuses to recognize Maduro as president because they say his re-election for a second term, which just began recently, was fraudulent. And a lot of people agree with that. PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: So Juan Guaido has declared himself interim president, as you heard. Now, he's head of the National Assembly. That's Venezuela's congress. He says he'll be transitional leader until new, free and fair elections can be held. He's done that with the full support of the U.S., most of Latin America, Canada. And they say he's the president, not Maduro. PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Yet, Maduro is in the presidential palace, and he says this is an attempted coup led by Washington, who wants Venezuela's oil and gas. And he's portraying it as a throwback to the Cold War and another installment in the U.S.' history of supporting coups and other forms of intervention in Latin America. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, where are the people in this moment, Phil? Does Maduro have any actual grassroots support still? PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: He does. It's often said he enjoys the support of about 20 percent of the country. I have no idea how reliable that figure is. But he does have supporters, and they were out on the streets yesterday, summoned there by the ruling Socialist Party, holding counterdemonstrations in answer to the day of national protests called by the opposition. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Are these U.S. diplomats actually going to leave? I mean, the U.S. doesn't recognize Maduro, so Maduro kicked the U.S. diplomats out. What's happening there? PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Yeah. This has become a really critical issue. Secretary Mike Pompeo says Maduro doesn't have the legal authority to break diplomatic relations with the U.S. The U.S. doesn't recognize him as president. It therefore follows the U.S. thinks that Maduro doesn't have the legal authority to throw out its diplomats. PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: But what happens if they don't leave? Maduro controls the streets here, and he controls the security forces so far. And I honestly don't know the answer to that question. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: In just a couple seconds, do you think new elections will be held? PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Very difficult to say at this point. We're really at the beginning of this crisis, and no one really knows how it's going to play out. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Phil, thank you so much. Philip Reeves from Caracas reporting on the political crisis there.

Trump tweets he'll delay the State of the Union speech. It's Day 34 of the government shutdown, Ohio voters react to the standoff. In Venezuela, two men argue over who is the rightful president.

Trump twittert, er werde die Rede zur Lage der Nation verschieben. Es ist Tag 34 der Regierungsschließung, die Wähler in Ohio reagieren auf die Pattsituation. In Venezuela streiten sich zwei Männer darüber, wer der rechtmäßige Präsident ist.

特朗普在推特上表示，他将推迟国情咨文演讲。这是政府停摆的第 34 天，俄亥俄州的选民对僵局做出反应。在委内瑞拉，两个男人争论谁是合法的总统。

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The World Economic Forum at Davos in Switzerland was the stage for an argument this week. It was an argument over differing visions of the world held by the leaders of the world's two largest economies. NPR's Gregory Warner was listening from Davos. Hi there, Gregory. GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: Hey, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: I guess we should note part of the U.S. side of this argument was expressed symbolically in that U.S. officials - many of them, anyway - did not show up. GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: Right. The entire U.S. delegation canceled their trip because of the government shutdown. But Mike Pompeo - Secretary of State Pompeo addressed the Davos crowd by video link from D.C. And just to set the scene here - it was pretty weird. The main hall in Davos is this huge, blue auditorium, seats over a thousand people. Mike Pompeo's headshot pops up on this giant videotron (ph). He makes a joke about the cold weather in D.C. MIKE POMPEO: You see the Lincoln Memorial to my back. So while I'm not here in person, I at least feel like I'm in Davos with the weather. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: But then Secretary Pompeo says, look. In terms of China, it's really important for China not to steal technological secrets from American companies that do business there. And he says, quote, "those aren't fair arrangements." So very next day, same blue auditorium, China's vice president Wang Qishan takes the stage. And he's there in person. And when he's asked about that allegation, he responds with a fable. QISHAN WANG: (Through interpreter) There was a story of a devil and a demon. So when the devil is eight inches tall - and the demon might be ten inches tall. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. What's going on there, Gregory? GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: So the story about the devil and the demon did leave a lot of us confused. So I called my colleague Jess Jiang at our Rough Translation podcast. She's fluent in Mandarin. And she explained that this is a reference to a famous line in a classic Chinese novel. And you can paraphrase the line as the bad will always stand taller than the good. So the vice president follows that line with an analogy about policemen and thieves. QISHAN WANG: (Through interpreter) So this is like the relationship between the thief and the policeman. So for 60 percent of the thieves, if they could be caught and things stolen could be recovered, then we'll have significantly fewer thieves. But if there are no thieves at all, I believe that will be too good to be true. GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: So it sounded like he was setting expectations for the trade talks between the U.S. and China next week. It's like he was saying, look. Stopping all theft of American intellectual property, that's going to be too much to demand. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Yeah - and also suggesting if you say the bad will stand taller than the good, he's suggesting that we're going to steal some things. And you're never going to stop all of it. And we're going to win as a result of that (laughter). That's the way I would read that. Is that what the vice president was trying to say as far as you can tell? GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: He definitely talked about that being idealistic. He said that we shouldn't stand in the way of innovation. He said globalization has caused income inequality in the U.S. That is something for the U.S. to deal with, not to scapegoat China. He - you know, he was very defiant about the state of the things right now. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So did you feel you understood from these two speeches how it is the United States and China are seeing the world differently at this moment? GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: Look. I think this whole conference is always a reference on globalization. And in this case, I think the Chinese vice president was specifically saying, look. The tables have turned. Western countries now have more anti-elitism, more nationalism. But developing countries - or in China's case, a more developed country - is pro-globalization. And they see the benefits of that. And they want it to continue. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Gregory, thanks for the update from Switzerland - really appreciate it. GREGORY WARNER, BYLINE: Thank you, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Gregory Warner has been in Davos. He is, of course, also the host of the outstanding podcast Rough Translation.

The U.S. and China are said to be far a part on a trade deal. At the annual World Economic Forum in Switzerland, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and China's vice president traded tough words.

Die USA und China sind angeblich weit von einer Handelsvereinbarung entfernt. Auf dem jährlichen Weltwirtschaftsforum in der Schweiz haben sich Außenminister Mike Pompeo und Chinas Vizepräsident harte Worte geliefert.

据说美国和中国在贸易协议中扮演着重要角色。在瑞士举行的世界经济论坛年会上，美国国务卿蓬佩奥和中国国家副主席相互发表了态度强硬的言论。

NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Nearly one percent of children in the United States have been diagnosed with some form of autism, a number 20 times higher than it was just a generation ago. A series of reports in the Los Angeles Times explores whether this boom is an epidemic of disease or an epidemic of discovery. NEAL CONAN, HOST: The series finds dramatic differences based on income, location and race, and finds that some parents seek a diagnosis to get treatment for a child as early as possible while others struggle with the stigma associated with autism. NEAL CONAN, HOST: If you went through an autism diagnosis with your child, tell us about your experience, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. Later in the program, ukulele virtuoso Jake Shimabukuro joins us to play a couple of songs and take your calls. NEAL CONAN, HOST: But first, Alan Zarembo joins us from member station KPCC in Pasadena. He's a staff writer with the project and investigative team at The Los Angeles Times. His series "Discovering Autism, ran last week. Thanks very much for coming in today. ALAN ZAREMBO: Thanks for having me, Neal. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And I wanted to ask you about your finding that those who receive the most services are those who protest the loudest. ALAN ZAREMBO: Well, that's correct. We found, when we analyzed data from the developmental services system here in California, major, major differences depending on race in terms of the spending on services for these kids. And race really was a proxy for socioeconomics. Parents with the resources to fight were able to do so and had much better success than those who were less equipped. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There is, for example you should tell us about Stacey Funk(ph), one of those you describe as a warrior mom. ALAN ZAREMBO: I met many, many parents like this, incredibly dedicated parents who have essentially made it their full-time jobs to fight for their children. Often they hire lawyers, professional advocates, and they push for all the help that they can get. It's quite a contrast to many other parents, who simply accept what they're offered, and given the strain on the state budget and on the schools, often what they're offered is far, far less than what these more resourceful parents wind up getting. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So when you look at the differences between the number of cases reported in a place like, oh, say, Orange County in the Los Angeles area and further afield in more remote parts of the state, there are dramatic differences. ALAN ZAREMBO: Right, well, we have to - you know, there's two kinds of disparities that we found. So what you're referring to here is disparities in diagnosis. We analyzed school district data for every single school district in the state, looking at the proportion of elementary school students who had an autism eligibility for special education, and we found dramatic differences depending on where you go. ALAN ZAREMBO: So as you point out, there's a very big split between rural California and urban California. The rate of autism in some school districts in Orange County was as high as three percent or even a little bit more, and we found 130 school districts out of about 1,000 statewide that listed no autistic students. ALAN ZAREMBO: Many of those were clustered in the Central Valley of California. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And is there... ALAN ZAREMBO: And - I'm sorry. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And what explains those differences? ALAN ZAREMBO: Well, you know, this was perplexing to me when I first noticed them. I went to experts, and I said is there something in the water in Southern California that is causing this? And really nobody thought so. What we're really seeing here are the signatures of the social forces that determine who gets diagnosed. Awareness is greater in certain places. The label has taken on a broader meaning in certain places; it's used more freely. ALAN ZAREMBO: Other places seem in a sense trapped in a very old interpretation of autism, which was invariably severe and lifelong. On the whole, the label, though, has expanded enormously, as have efforts to identify children with the disorder. And Southern California, in a sense, is just further ahead than the rest of the state. ALAN ZAREMBO: I should add that we also see these differences across the country. When you look at the rates statewide, you see enormous variation. The rate in Minnesota, for example, is 10 times that in Iowa. NEAL CONAN, HOST: You conclude, in fact, that autism, the condition, is not communicable. The diagnosis, however, is. ALAN ZAREMBO: Exactly. One very interesting study was done by a sociologist from Columbia University who did a spacial analysis of the distribution of autism cases in California, and he found that if you lived very close to somebody else with the disorder, your chances of having your child diagnosed were 16 percent higher than if you lived further away. ALAN ZAREMBO: And he did some very interesting tests to look at this hypothesis. He looked at kids who were on opposite sides of a school district boundary and found that in that case the trend didn't hold up. And so what he was able to conclude is that this was really just word of mouth, you know, parents meeting in parks, at school district meetings, and spreading awareness, telling each other about which doctors to see, where to get diagnosed, how to tap into the services that were available for their children. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, let's get some callers in on the conversation. We want to hear your experiences if you've had a child who's been diagnosed with autism, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. We'll start with Pamela Spring - excuse me, Pamela in Spring Lake, Michigan. PAMELA: Hi, thanks for taking my call. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Sure. PAMELA: I'm calling, I have a now-seven-year-old daughter, and she was diagnosed just about about on her second birthday. Her - she started to kind of act quirky around 15 months, and then by 18 months she had stopped feeding. She was extremely self-injurious. She would have tantrums six hours long, and we couldn't get anyone to listen to us. Even family, they just kept telling us that it was, you know, terrible twos came early and things along those lines. PAMELA: And finally we went to Ann Arbor, and I think I - like you had said earlier - I just yelled loud enough, and finally we were able to get some attention. She got her diagnosis. We don't have a lot of financial means, but I am a very aggressive person, and I think I Googled a lot. So I was able to get her into a lot of different services. PAMELA: We had feeding therapy because she was losing weight and some occupational therapy, sensory integration, and then she got into the school district, which we are fortunate is a very good school district. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And is she doing better? PAMELA: She is doing great. She's in the first grade. She has a para-pro, but she gets pulled out, you know, for little things here and there, but she is in a full - she has a full day of first grade with her para-pro. So she's doing amazing. NEAL CONAN, HOST: A para-pro? ALAN ZAREMBO: Yes, she has her own aide, basically, that stays with her all day to kind of help guide her. She knows her very well. So if she starts to have a hard day, a hard time, she knows kind of when to pull her out and to reset her, if possible. NEAL CONAN, HOST: But worth the yelling? PAMELA: I'm sorry, what was that? NEAL CONAN, HOST: The yelling turned out to be worth it? PAMELA: Oh yes. Yup, that's something too, the beginning, how it was stated, you know, are we just being sometimes a little hypersensitive? And if a pendulum swings that way for a little while so that people can kind of catch up with, you know, to recognize those signs, then I say you have any question at all, go seek out a professional. Do everything you can, because early intervention made all the difference for her. She is a – she is a new creature. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Pamela, we wish you and your daughter the best. Thanks very much for the call. PAMELA: Thank you so much. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Joining us now from our bureau in New York is Catherine Lord, a clinical psychologist, director of the Institute for Brain Development at New York Presbyterian Hospital. Alan Zarembo spoke with her as part of his series. Nice to have you with us today. CATHERINE LORD: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And in one of the pieces he reported, you say many clinicians believe it's more of a tragedy when somebody gets missed than when somebody on the border gets misdiagnosed. CATHERINE LORD: That's correct. I mean, I think that because the interventions are not dangerous, the interventions really build on normal development but try to work with the child's strengths and weaknesses, I think the feeling is if you have any doubt whether this child might have ASD, it's important to go ahead and work with the family and work with the child because we think that some of the things that we see in adults with ASD may be a consequence of the difficulties that they had growing up, which they didn't necessarily have to have, if we can get good intervention and appropriate services. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And as Pamela's case suggests, the most effective moment for treatment is early intervention. CATHERINE LORD: That's true, although I think it's very important to realize that later intervention helps too. I mean, I hear the mother in the introduction, and I think that it's - we're not implying that, you know, there's a window, and never again can your child learn. It's just that we think that things cascade, and so if you can get in there early and begin to get good skills, then, for example, a child can go to regular first grade, and that's a very different experience than they might have if they couldn't make it in a regular class. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We should point out, though, this is not something that can be detected with a blood test or with a hammer poke on the knee. It's a behavioral diagnosis, right? CATHERINE LORD: That is absolutely right. I mean, we know this is - autism is caused by something biological, but the reality is we don't know what. And so we have to look at behavior, and that's part of the source of confusion. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And do we know exactly which part of the treatment is most effective to - for improvement? CATHERINE LORD: Well, we know elements of the treatment. So we know that keeping kids socially engaged, building on very basic skills like imitation and attending to people, we know that those are particularly important active ingredients. But beyond that, we don't know whether, you know, whether kids need 40 hours or 20 hours, or whether they should play some and rehearse other times. CATHERINE LORD: I mean, we don't have - and it's probably quite different for different kids. NEAL CONAN, HOST: But when you're dealing with social services systems and school systems, yeah, but they tend to be sort of cookie-cutter answers. CATHERINE LORD: Well, I think that's right in some ways and not in others. I think it's right because you have to have a prescription, you have to have a sort of bottom limit of what is enough, and that's, I think, what - partly what Alan is alluding to, is that, you know, there are bottom limits that are specified, but many, many families don't really get that because it's so expensive. CATHERINE LORD: And so the families that actually get what - even the minimal treatments that are appropriate, are the ones who push. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We're talking with Catherine Lord, a clinical psychologist at New York Presbyterian Hospital. She's with us from our bureau in New York. Also with Alan Zarembo, the Los Angeles staff writer with the project and investigative team who wrote a series called "Discovering Autism" that ran last week in his newspaper. NEAL CONAN, HOST: What are your experiences after your child was diagnosed? 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. Once a child is diagnosed with autism, focus turns to treatment. When Justin received his diagnosis of mild to moderate autism at age two and a half, he started therapy, progressed quickly. His parents pressed his school district for more and more help. NEAL CONAN, HOST: After just a couple of years, reports Alan Zarembo in the Los Angeles Times, they proudly declared their son recovered. It's what every parent of an autistic child hopes for but rarely a straightforward, easy path. NEAL CONAN, HOST: If you've guided your child through an autism diagnosis, we want to hear your story, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Alan Zarembo, a staff writer with the project and investigative team at the Los Angeles Times, is with us from KPCC in Pasadena. His series "Discovering Autism" ran in the paper and online last week. You can find a link at our website. Also with us, Catherine Lord, a clinical psychologist who participated in Alan's series. And Alan, I have to ask you, that definition recovered, that's a controversial term. ALAN ZAREMBO: Very, very controversial. You know, one of the fundamental dilemmas about autism is that early treatment, which is preferable, requires early diagnosis. The problem is that the earlier you're diagnosed, the less stable the diagnosis is. And so when you have kids who recover, sometimes it's very unclear sort of what's the result of the treatment versus what is the result of the natural course of developments. ALAN ZAREMBO: You know, this treatment is given at a time when kids are undergoing enormous, enormous change. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Catherine Lord, is it possible that a child who recovers, quote-unquote, in a couple or(ph) three years maybe didn't have autism? CATHERINE LORD: You know, I would be surprised. I think that probably some of it is that 20 years ago a child who was doing things that now we would say are autistic at 18 months, you know, might not be noticed, or people would be mildly concerned but not know what to do. CATHERINE LORD: And if that child got steadily better, from say two to four, then by the time they're four, they wouldn't get a diagnosis. On the other hand, I don't think there are a lot of kids who are 18 months old or two years old who are getting diagnoses of autism who don't have quite marked problems. The question is just: Are there - is there a small group of those kids who really are going to grow out of this? CATHERINE LORD: And that really may be true, but it's not my experience that kids are called autistic when they're little who really don't have problems. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So those numbers you cite, which are sobering, in your series, Alan Zarembo, and sobering for their implications in terms of their impact on the taxpayers of California and by extension the taxpayers of the United States, those numbers are only going up. ALAN ZAREMBO: That's right. I mean, I might point out that, you know, in my - in the course of my many months of reporting, I did(ph) meet, you know, children who didn't have problems. But the point I would make is that there's a lot of children who have something wrong with them, and there is not really a clear answer for it. And autism has become such a broad label that it's not a bad one to have to get help for your child, to open the door to services. ALAN ZAREMBO: One really interesting survey was done - it was a massive survey done by the federal government a few years ago. It found that 40 percent - it was a survey of parents. It found that 40 percent of kids who were given an autism diagnosis at one point no longer had it. And that's a massive change from the past, when autism, you know, was considered invariably a permanent and severe diagnosis. ALAN ZAREMBO: It was really a diagnosis of last resort. So we've seen an incredible shift, a transformation of this label. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's go next to Sara(ph), Sara with us from Kerrville, Texas. SARA: Yes, good afternoon. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Afternoon. SARA: My son was, I like to think, one of the first children diagnosed with Asperger's. We knew when he was about 18 months to two years that there were some serious problems with his social skills and other things. And he was given every other conceivable diagnosis, pervasive developmental disorder and oppositional disorder. SARA: And we had to literally wait until the day that the diagnostic manual added Asperger's as a diagnosis and on that day went into the doctor and said please change this. So when he was diagnosed, there were no websites, there were no books, and we had to go into the school district and practically teach the teachers what were appropriate ways to deal with my son, who's now 24 and living independently. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, good for him, and I'm sure that was not an easy path. SARA: It was a struggle. The biggest problem we found with schools is that as soon as a program was put in place that was helpful to him, and he was able to function better in school, the first reaction then was to pull those supports. You know, he doesn't need an aide anymore because he's doing so well. So we had to constantly fight with the schools to maintain the services they were giving him rather than to reduce them as he got more successful. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, I'm glad he's doing so well, Sara. Thanks very much for the call. SARA: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Sara mentioned the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Medical Mental Disorders. Here's an email from Yvonne(ph) in Syracuse: I was hoping your guest could talk about rumors the new DSM, about to be published, is going to completely eliminate Asperger's as a form of autism. This seems shocking to me, since the realm of autism is so vast it could use more clarification instead of less. Why would they think this is OK? Catherine Lord, can you help us out? CATHERINE LORD: It isn't that Asperger's is going to be eliminated. The idea is that there will be just one autism spectrum disorder, because the reality is that the distinctions between Asperger's syndrome, PDD-NOS and autism are so variable across different clinicians that it doesn't give you much information. CATHERINE LORD: So what the proposal is for the new DSM-5 is that people who have an Asperger's diagnosis would be included within the range of autism spectrum disorder, and then the point there is that we're asking people to clarify the specifics that are associated or why someone might have gotten that Asperger's diagnosis. CATHERINE LORD: And it might be because of high intelligence or very good verbal skills or milder social deficits or particular circumscribed interests. So we're trying to get people to be more specific about the dimensions within an individual and the strengths and weaknesses rather than put people into these subcategories that turn out to just not mean the same thing to different people. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There is - in the series we learn that this is a condition that describes everybody from kids with severe communication efforts - can't speak, cannot change their clothes, cannot really do much of anything - to kids who are math whizzes. It is just everybody is different. CATHERINE LORD: Absolutely, and I think we really want to stress that describing how one child or one adult is different from another is absolutely critical. So it's not that we're trying to downplay that at all, but we're saying that it's better to be specific about how they're different than to have a general label like PDD-NOS or even Asperger's, as if it were a scientific diagnosis, because it's just not reliable across different centers and clinics. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's go next to Maria(ph), Maria calling from St. Louis. MARIA: Yes, good afternoon, and thank you for taking my call. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Sure. MARIA: My daughter is 26 years old, and when she was first diagnosed, she was 24 months, and I was told by a well-respected neurologist in St. Louis to - there's nothing we can do about her. Go home, forget about her. It was like a death sentence back then, and it made me more and more determined to find out what exactly what was wrong with my daughter. MARIA: I decided to read anything and everything that came into my hands, and thanks to a wonderful organization that we have here in St. Louis called Judevine Center for Autism, I was able to attend classes and find out that my daughter did not have a death sentence. Sara(ph) still has autism. Sara still has her days. But I have seen growth in her communication abilities and her social skills, which appear to be somehow impaired, yet it's a pleasure to be around her now these days. MARIA: Back then, I was told there was nothing to do about her, and I'm pretty sure my case is not that unique because I was told I was the cause of my daughter's autism - a refrigerator mother, sort of. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, thank goodness that sort of thing is a thing of the past. It couldn't have been easy, though, Maria. MARIA: I'm glad I did not believe them. You know, the label that my daughter has does not define her, you know? She loves peanut butter, spaghetti, music, but she is a person outside of her label, and I am glad I did not dwell into oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I made everything and every effort to this day to keep Sara part of the community and to keep Sara - I don't know how to say it, I mean, just to being her. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, thank you very much, we appreciate it. SARA: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Alan Zarembo, you go back to the work of one doctor in particular who may be principally responsible for the techniques that aid at least some autistic patients. ALAN ZAREMBO: Right, his name is Ivar Lovaas. He passed away last year. He was at UCLA, a psychologist who developed what has become the most popular therapy. It's called applied behavior analysis. And essentially what he did was break down the skills of life, the things that we learn without really thinking about them - such as reading a facial expression or identifying colors or looking somebody in the eye - and taught these things through operant conditioning. He published a paper on this in 1987, which really changed forever the way people think about the prospects for children with autism. Many of the children in his study did quite well. There's still a lot to learn, though. ALAN ZAREMBO: And, you know, the techniques have evolved quite a bit since his day, but really, what scientists are trying to get their heads around is how best to use this therapy - you know, who should get it for how many hours. And it's a real nightmare for the service providers and the schools that wind up paying for it. You know, autism is - encompasses, as you said, such a broad range of children, that there's often enormous dispute over what any individual child needs. ALAN ZAREMBO: And to go back to what we were talking about before, often, what seems to be determining what a child gets is how hard the parents fight once they do have the autism diagnosis. So it's often this, sort of, a very haphazard sort of system that gets children help. And we were able to document that in our stories through data from the California Developmental Service System and in the California schools. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There is - you also say there has been - other doctors have had difficulty repeating Dr. Lovaas' results, and in fact a study - perhaps the best study -done by a student of his, found some troubling results that challenged some of his theories. ALAN ZAREMBO: Well, it appears that the people that do best with this therapy are those who start off with the fewest deficits. So they already have some language. They already have the ability to imitate their peers. And in this study that you're referring to, it was the children who had, in fact, a milder form of autism who had the best outcomes. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Catherine Lord, is that changing perceptions? CATHERINE LORD: I think that we're left almost with a, ethical dilemma, and that's partly, you know, who do you treat? And it's very complicated, you know, even in medicine. I mean, I think if someone was is in a little pain, you wouldn't say, well, it's better to give them treatment than someone who's in a lot of pain. But - and I think that's kind of where we are. I mean, we can treat the kids who have the biggest problems, and they make the slowest progress. But I think as a society, we have some commitment to helping them move toward being able to take care of themselves at a very basic level. And those are very, very important things, even though they don't look as good when you add up numbers. CATHERINE LORD: On the other hand, there are kids who, if you do early intervention, really may be independent and do very well as adults. And we want to push them to be as independent as possible. And so I think that it often isn't - it isn't - that isn't the scientific question. It's more a question of just what does that - what is the society's commitment, and then, you know, what kinds of treatment are going to help which children the most. Because sometimes having one structured one-on-one for many, many hours many not be necessary. It may be more important for a child to move into, you know, a regular peer group with some supervision. And so we don't want to get into just very pat recommendations. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We're talking about autism diagnoses with Alan Zarembo of the Los Angeles Times and clinical psychologist Catherine Lord. Last fall, we talked about making the world work for adults with autism. You can find that at our website: npr.org. It's also a part of Alan Zarembo's series, the fourth part in his series, "Discovering Austism" that ran last week in The Los Angeles Times. Again, go to npr.org. You can find a link to that. This is TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. But, Alan Zarembo, we have to point out that this is not just ethics. Resources are involved. The state of California, as we all know, is having tremendous fiscal problems. That's true in many other states, as well. That factors into this, too. ALAN ZAREMBO: Absolutely. The school district - I could start with the school districts - are in a bind between trimming their budgets and satisfying their obligations under the federal law that guarantees a certain level of help to these students. The law, though, only specifies you have to provide free and appropriate help to these students. So that becomes a matter of great debate, often in a legal setting, as to what is appropriate. Autism has become the leading source of disputes within special education between school districts and parents. Last year, there were about 2,800 disputes filed with the state, a third of them were for autism, even though autism only represents about 10 percent of the total number of children who are in special education in California. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thanks very much for your time today, Alan Zarembo, appreciate it. ALAN ZAREMBO: Thank you so much. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Alan Zarembo with the Los Angeles Times joined us from KPCC, our member station in Pasadena. Catherine Lord, clinical psychologist, director of the Institute for Brain Development at New York Presbyterian Hospital, joined us from our bureau in New York. And thanks to you. CATHERINE LORD: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We'll end with this email from Jerome in New York - excuse me, in Marysville, Ohio: I'm an American. My wife is Japanese. Both our children were both in Japan. We realized very early our son had some sort of disability. I have learning disabilities, though managed to get my Ph.D. My wife has an MS in educational administration. One of the reasons we decided to relocate to the USA was the lack of services for our son. We lived in Hiroshima, and were told the closest specialist is in Tokyo - an all-day trip just to get there by car or train. In the USA, we still had to fight for services. I think my school district is good, but there was resistance to something they could not quantify. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Finally, the school psychologist told me, with a wink and a nudge, that the best thing to do for us was to get an outside diagnosis. That led to a year-long fight with the insurance company. Finally, I got the diagnosis, then the school district really stepped up to the plate. If the district had asked me to get an outside diagnosis from the very beginning, a lot of grief would have been spared to all of us. NEAL CONAN, HOST: As it turned out, he didn't get diagnosed until 14-and-a-half as a high-functioning autistic. He's doing well in school. His social skills are getting better, too. He's had good teachers. I think, though, if it wasn't for my wife and I fighting for him, which is a full-time job, he wouldn't be here doing so well in school, or in life, as he is. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thanks to all of you who emailed and called us. We wish we could have gotten to all of your calls and questions. And thank you. And, again, we recommend you go read that series from the Los Angeles Times. The links are at npr.org. Coming up: Ukulele master Jake Shimabukuro joins us. You won't believe your ears when you hear his cover of Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody." Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News.

According to the Centers for Disease Control, nearly one percent of U.S. children have some form of autism, 20 times higher than the rate in the 1980s. Alan Zarembo of The Los Angeles Times and clinical psychologist Catherine Lord discuss what's behind the growing number of diagnoses. Read the Los Angeles Times investigative series, "Discovering Autism."

Nach Angaben der Centers for Disease Control (Zentren für Krankheitskontrolle) leidet fast ein Prozent der US-Kinder an einer Form von Autismus, 20 Mal mehr als in den 1980er Jahren. Alan Zarembo von der Los Angeles Times und die klinische Psychologin Catherine Lord erörtern, was hinter der wachsenden Zahl von Diagnosen steckt. Lesen Sie die Enthüllungsserie der Los Angeles Times, \"Discovering Autism (Autismus entdecken).\"

根据疾病控制中心的数据，近1%的美国儿童患有某种形式的自闭症，比20世纪80年代的比例高出20倍。《洛杉矶时报》的艾伦·扎伦博和临床心理学家凯瑟琳·洛德讨论了病例不断增加背后的原因。阅读《洛杉矶时报》调查系列文章《发现自闭症》。

NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Blago repents at his sentencing hearing, Cain calls it quits, and Newt's the new number one. It's Wednesday and time for a... NEWT GINGRICH: Truly stupid... NEAL CONAN, HOST: Edition of the political junkie. PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: There you go again. WALTER MONDALE: When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad: Where's the beef? SENATOR BARRY GOLDWATER: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. SENATOR LLOYD BENTSEN: Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy. PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON: You don't have Nixon to kick around anymore. SARAH PALIN: Lipstick. GOVERNOR RICK PERRY: Oops. PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: But I'm the decider. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Every Wednesday, political junkie Ken Rudin joins us to recap the week in politics. President Barack Obama test drives some would-be new slogans out in Kansas. The Senate edges toward an extension of a payroll tax cut or maybe not. George Allen and Tim Kaine square off for a debate in Virginia, though neither is quite yet the nominee. And Democrats cheer the new congressional map in ever-purple Colorado. NEAL CONAN, HOST: In a few minutes, columnist Michael Gerson helps us analyze the GOP field just four weeks away from Iowa. Later in the program, JN25BMIAF and the man who connected the dots from Pearl Harbor to Midway. But first, political junkie Ken Rudin joins us as usual here in Studio 3A. And as usual, we begin with a trivia question. Hey Ken, welcome back. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Thank you, Neal. Okay, well, let's see. Just about every poll, and we're going to talking about this later, just about every poll shows that former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is the clear favorite, at least in the Iowa caucuses. So okay, the question is: Who was the last former House member to win the Iowa caucuses? NEAL CONAN, HOST: If you think you know the answer to this week's trivia, the last member of the House of Representatives... KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Former. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Former member of the House of Representatives to win the Iowa caucuses, give us a phone call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. The winner, of course, gets a fabulous political junkie no-prize T-shirt. And Ken, just within the last hour, we've heard the verdict on Rod Blagojevich. Well, we knew the verdict quite a while ago, guilty on 18 counts. He will do 14 years in prison. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Yes, he is following the Illinois governor tradition. He's the second consecutive former governor to go to prison, George Ryan of course is also in prison on corruption charges. But, you know, he's been in this hot water since the moment Barack Obama was elected president because Rod Blagojevich decided that he was going to sell - or attempt to sell - the appointment to Obama's Senate seat to the highest bidder. And he did everything he can in his capacity as governor to do that. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And he ended up being on tape by the FBI, and it all turned out to be pretty embarrassing. He said at sentencing today that he is deeply sorry for what he did, but at the time he did not know he was violating the law, though apparently setting an example by saying look, the sentence we gave the previous governor clearly did not deter the next one. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Well, that's a good point also. But it's interesting that only this week did he and his attorneys admit guilt. All along, he kept saying that he's not guilty of anything, despite the extortion, the bribery and the convictions that happened back a couple of months ago, back in June. NEAL CONAN, HOST: In the meantime, there is a bit of fallout from the Blagojevich scandal, and that involves Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Well, the House Ethics Committee announced this week that Jackson, the son of the civil rights leader, the long-time congressman from Chicago, would - an investigation on what he did to bolster his own possible appointment to the Obama Senate seat, what he did regarding government funding, government funds to get his appointment. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: And so the investigation goes on, and that's, you know, really not good news for Jesse Jackson because one, his district will be redrawn, and it will be redrawn, and it has already invited another candidate, former Congresswoman Debbie Halvorson, who served one term until she was defeated last year. NEAL CONAN, HOST: That new district would include a large part of the district she used to represent. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: It's about 25 percent, but still, you know, the point is, you know, she's running against the ethics scandal, which is, you know, I guess it's a scandal around Jesse Jackson. He's been engulfed by it for the last three years. And he also has - you know, he was also involved in this nightclub woman outside of his marriage that didn't go well for his constituents, as well. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: But most of the district is still Jesse Jackson country. It's still an African-American majority district. But again, this is part of the Blagojevich fallout. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And in the meantime, if we're talking about redrawn districts, we have a new map for the state of Colorado, and this has always been one of those contentious states, it goes back and forth, back and forth. Democrats are cheering. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: They are cheering because they got what they wanted. Basically, the real story is is that Mike Kaufman, he's a Republican, I guess did two terms. He's the guy who replaced Tom Tancredo when Tom Tancredo left in 2008. Kaufman was in a safe Republican district. Now they've put in more liberal parts of adjoining areas into his district, and now he's going to have a fight on his hands. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: I mean, he's the former secretary of state, state treasurer. He's a popular guy, but it's now a far more competitive race than it would have been. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And in the state of Virginia, the two likely candidates for Senate will square off for a debate tonight. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Well, we thought we were not going to hear the name Kaine anymore, but there's another Kaine. No, actually this afternoon, the debate is this afternoon. And it's Tim Kaine and George Allen. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Former governor. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Both former governors. Of course, George Allen lost his Senate seat to Jim Webb six years ago, and now with Webb retiring, he's looking for a comeback. George Allen, of course, has the macaca incident back from six years, when his whole candidacy fell apart. And Tim Kaine, of course, was the DNC chair and a loyal Barack Obama supporter in Virginia, and I think Obama's numbers, certainly not the same in Virginia as they were in 2008. So both of them have things to overcome. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Both in a dead heat, according to - statistical dead heat according to opinion polls. If Democrats have any hope of holding on to control of the Senate, they'd better win in Virginia. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: But, you know, what's interesting is that they - this debate excluded all the other candidates because they didn't get the required 15 percent in the polls. Now if you think of what the Republicans for president have been doing, I mean, not many of them are getting 15 percent of the polls. But it was kind of an arbitrary decision, I thought, to exclude other candidates because, as you say, neither Kaine nor Allen is the certified nominee as of yet. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's get some people on the line who think they know the answer to this week's trivia question, again the last former member of the House of Representatives to win the Iowa caucuses, 800-989-8255 if you'd like to weigh in, or you can email us, talk@npr.org. And let's go first to - this is Caleb(ph), Caleb with us from Studio City in California. CALEB: Hey, my guess is Poppy Bush in 1980. NEAL CONAN, HOST: That would be the first - Bush 41. CALEB: Correct. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: He was a former member of the House, and he did win the caucuses in 1980, and he is not the most recent. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Nice try, Caleb. CALEB: All right, thanks, guys. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Appreciate it. Let's go now to - this is Iowa City, and Trev(ph) is on the line. Trey(ph), excuse me. TREY: Johnson, I guess maybe not now. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: I'm sorry? TREY: Lyndon Johnson. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Well, actually, when Lyndon Johnson ran for president, there were no such thing as the Iowa caucuses. They kind of began in '72. George McGovern came out of nowhere to do well there, even though uncommitted. But back in the Lyndon Johnson days, there were no Iowa caucuses. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And after Ken Rudin and Neal Conan bring the political junkie out to Iowa next month, there may never be another political caucus, but anyway. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Or political junkie. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thank you very much. TREY: By chance are you going to talk about fast and furious? NEAL CONAN, HOST: Not on the political junkie segment. Well, we're hoping to get a segment on TALK OF THE NATION. TREY: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thanks very much. Let's go next to - this is Simian(ph), Simian with us from Rochester, New York. SIMIAN: Hi, my guess is Dick Gephardt. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Dick Gephardt from neighboring Missouri. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Dick Gephardt actually did win the Iowa caucuses in 1988. He - one, he was not a former member of Congress... NEAL CONAN, HOST: He was a current member of Congress. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: He was a current member of Congress and of course is no longer - is not the most recent winner. NEAL CONAN, HOST: But good guess, Simian. Thanks very much. Let's try - this is Faun(ph), Faun with us from Tampa. FAUN: Yes, I say Bob Dole. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Bob Dole did win the Iowa caucuses in 1996, again not the most recent former House member. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Ooh, but getting closer. Nice try, Faun. FAUN: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's go next to - this is - excuse me, wrong button. This is John(ph), John with us from Des Moines. JOHN: I'm going to go with Al Gore. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Al Gore is the correct answer. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Ding, ding, ding. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Of course, he was vice president when he was elected - when he won the caucuses in 2000 and a former senator, but he was also a former House member from Tennessee. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And this piece of paper just handed me, an email from John H(ph) saying Al Gore. So apparently came in at the same time, so two political junkie no-prize T-shirts will go out this week. John, stay on the line, we'll collect your particulars and send you that wonderful T-shirt in exchange for a promise of your digital image we can post on our Wall of Shame. JOHN: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Congratulations. JOHN: Appreciate it. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: We think. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We think. NEAL CONAN, HOST: That may be held up as collateral for blackmail later. Anyway, we're talking about the presidential campaign coming up, and it was interesting to see President Barack Obama go to Osawatomie in Kansas this week, and he was talking there. It's the same place where, 101 years ago, former President Theodore Roosevelt made his Square Deal speech, and it was a lot of themes that President Obama echoed in his speech yesterday. PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: I believe that this country succeeds when everyone gets a fair shot, when everyone does their fair share, when everyone plays by the same rules. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And this of course again part of his effort - well, part of the campaign for sure. He's not going to win Kansas but trying out what seemed to be some campaign slogans. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Yes, and I think it's - I don't know how effective it is, but it certainly seems to be winning the day at least in the fact that he's trying to portray the Republican Party as the party of the rich. And when he's talking about the same rules, if the middle class should pay a certain amount of taxes, then the wealthy should pay taxes. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Of course, they do pay taxes, but a lot of the battle that's going on in Congress, like with the payroll tax extension, President Obama is pushing for an extension on a middle-class tax cut to go past the year. But to pay for it, it would put a surcharge on millionaires, people making over a million dollars a year. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: The Republicans say look, we're not going to cut taxes for some and raise it on the others. So they say it's a no deal. But it's a winning - Obama and the Democrats think it's a winning Democrat argument. NEAL CONAN, HOST: In other words, if you oppose this tax cut for the middle class, for everybody, you're only in favor of tax cuts for the rich. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: And that's exactly what the Democrats - the Democrats feel that they have the Republicans on the run on this issue, and they might. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Mitch McConnell, the Republican minority leader in the Senate, said the Democrats put a bill on the floor calling for taxes on the wealthy to pay for this. They knew it would lose, he says. SENATOR MITCH MCCONNELL: So Democrats can have another week of fun and games on the Senate floor while tens of millions of working Americans go another week wondering whether they're going to see a smaller paycheck at the end of the year. NEAL CONAN, HOST: But Ken, this does put Republicans on the horns of a dilemma. One Republican crossed the aisle. That's big news these days. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Susan Collins, right. But it also - exactly, it also does because the Republicans are talking about - they've always been talking about they're the party of tax cuts. The Democrats and the Obama administration are the party of higher taxes. But when you have a presidential administration in the Obama administration pushing for a middle-class tax cut, the Republicans are in this bind. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: They say, well, how could we oppose this? I mean, how could we be responsible for this going down to defeat if all these middle-class folks lose their, the tax benefit by two percentage points come December 31. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And if you remember a year ago the scramble to get legislation passed before the end of the congressional session, well, that's going to happen again. There's all kinds of measures that have to come for a vote before the end of the year. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Exactly, and there's no question that President Obama may not win this argument in the Senate, but he may win it as a political argument. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Political junkie Ken Rudin. Up next, a month from Iowa, where are we? Michael Gerson joins us on the shape of the GOP field. We'd like to hear from supporters of Herman Cain: Where do you go now? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. It's Wednesday. Ken Rudin is back with us. NPR's Political Junkie turned down Donald Trump's debate invitation though. He's saving up his material for his Political Junkie column. And of course that ScuttleButton puzzle, both of those are at npr.org/junkie. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And Ken, no puzzle last week while you were away, but you have a winner to announce from two weeks ago? KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: That's correct. I had a Minnie Mouse pin, a Drink Pepsi button, and a button of two brothers celebrating their birthday on the same date. So when you add them all together, you get the Minnie-soda Twins. Yeah, okay. And anyway, it was Ardona Manis(ph) of Portland, Oregon whose correct answer... NEAL CONAN, HOST: She gets a political no-prize T-shirt and the - and something that will cure her puns. Mitt Romney still clings to his lead in New Hampshire, but with the Iowa caucuses less than a month away, well, we've been counting down like this for it seems like a couple of years now - the field is dwindling. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Newt Gingrich making inroads in New Hampshire as well, now holds double-digit leads in both Iowa and South Carolina, leads certainly on his mind when he told ABC's Jake Tapper he does not need to bash his primary rivals. NEWT GINGRICH: I don't have to go around and point out the inconsistencies of people who aren't going to be the nominee; they're not going to be the nominee. JAKE TAPPER: You're going to be the nominee? NEWT GINGRICH: I'm going to be the nominee. I mean, it's very hard not to look at the recent polls and think that the odds are very high I'm going to be the nominee. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There are reports that Herman Cain, with the demise of his campaign, may soon endorse Newt Gingrich. We want to hear from those who supported Cain. Where do you go now? 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Joining us here in Studio 3A is Michael Gerson, former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, now an op-ed columnist for the Washington Post. Mike, nice to have you back on the Political Junkie. MICHAEL GERSON: Great to be with you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And does Newt Gingrich really have a shot? MICHAEL GERSON: Well, he certainly has the poll numbers right now. The problem with his analysis is that Cain had those poll numbers, and Perry had those poll numbers, and all fairly recently. You know, we've had about a third of the Republican electorate that has gone serially to the non-Mitt candidate. MICHAEL GERSON: That's true in Iowa, it's true in South Carolina, and this is now in a different place. Romney's problem, however, though, is while the Washington establishment a few weeks ago, the Republican establishment, seemed to settle on Romney, the Republican electorate has not. And they've gone to one more try here. MICHAEL GERSON: Each of those other candidates have kind of wilted under the scrutiny. Gingrich is certainly capable of making mistakes, but we'll see how he does. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Ken? KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Mike, what does the DNC and the White House know that the Republican voters don't know? Because if you listen to - you look at their email every day, it's anti-Romney stuff day in and day out, constantly bashing Mitt Romney, as a flip-flopper or whatever. But they seem to be convinced that it's Romney as the nominee, and yet you don't that with Republican voters in Iowa and South Carolina. MICHAEL GERSON: Well, there could be another reason for that, that they fear Romney more. I think that it would be their dream to have Newt Gingrich as an opponent. He's a very skilled person, but he has a lot of baggage, a baggage train, and he also has a, you know, tendency to make exaggerated, blustery statements that we hear all the time. MICHAEL GERSON: So I think that they're, you know, preparing for Romney, probably because he'd be the stronger candidate. That's my guess at this point. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We've heard one of those comments, at least according to a lot of people, just recently, that we have truly stupid child labor laws in this country, and we ought to hire poor young black African-Americans to be janitors at their schools. MICHAEL GERSON: Well, it's a perfect example of Gingrich's problem. There's a point in here somewhere, which is it's good to have early work experience. Everyone, you know, you could say that, and that it would make, you know, some sense. But then you say child labor laws are stupid, it's an overstatement. It's like saying that the Congressional Budget Office is inhabited by reactionary socialists, which he also said recently. These are pretty equitable sort of bureaucrats, you know. MICHAEL GERSON: And, you know, he has a habit of overstatement that I think is going to be a drawback in a presidential run. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And a lot of people say, yes, his numbers have been electric, his rise has been electric, his fundraising has been good. Interesting story in your paper this morning on the front page, saying he's just beginning to pay back the debts from last spring when we all buried his campaign, in no small part because he was spending extravagantly on private jets and hotel suites. MICHAEL GERSON: Yeah, I think you couple that with the fact that they don't have - the Gingrich campaign is not well-organized in early states. Maybe that doesn't make any difference anymore, but I'm not sure that all the normal rules of politics are suspended in this season, and I think it's a serious challenge. He has money problems, and he has serious organizational problems in early states. NEAL CONAN, HOST: He does have the money, though, to run advertising. He does have his first ads up in Iowa, speaking of an even grander America. NEWT GINGRICH: We can return power to the people and to the states we live in so we'll all have more freedom, opportunity and control of our lives. Yes, working together we can and will rebuild the America we love. I'm Newt Gingrich, and I approved this message. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And Michael Gerson, that - we can't ignore Newt Gingrich's strengths. He's a very good debater. He's done very well in these series of debates. Other people didn't. He does have presence on camera. He does have, seemingly, a passel full of ideas every single day. MICHAEL GERSON: Well, it's absolutely true. I mean, the Republicans seem to have settled on the two most skilled candidates. I think Romney and Gingrich both have the best political skills. And they're not really too far ideologically from one another. They're not Tea Party. Neither of them comes from a Tea Party background. They're both pretty mainstream internationalists. They're economic conservative without being libertarian. MICHAEL GERSON: The contrast is really a stylistic contrast. I think Republicans, many Republicans in the primaries, like the fact that Gingrich has a very tough criticism of Obama, sometimes over-the-top criticism of Obama. MICHAEL GERSON: And I think that, you know, it's a serious problem that Romney does not inspire a lot of love and loyalty. He seems a respectable candidate but not one that provokes a lot of enthusiasm. MICHAEL GERSON: So, you know, Gingrich has a real shot here. It's not like, in my view, like someone like Cain or even Perry, who turned out to lack basic political skills - the ability to debate, the ability to speak like they know, like, you know, what they're talking about in public. Gingrich has those skills. I think it puts him in a better position. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There are those in the Republican Party, though, who choke at the idea of candidate Gingrich. Oklahoma Republican Senator Tom Coburn served in the House when he was speaker, Gingrich, and had this to say on Fox News Sunday. SENATOR TOM COBURN: I just found his leadership lacking, and I'm not going to go into greater detail on that. NEAL CONAN, HOST: He didn't have to. That's pretty damning. MICHAEL GERSON: I think a lot of people that worked closely with Gingrich in the House of Representatives are skeptical. And his appeal to Republicans in many ways is not I'm going to be who I used to be, it's I'm going to be something different. I'm going to be more disciplined. I'm going to be - you know, have a different approach to these kind of campaigns. MICHAEL GERSON: Now, I don't know if you can change that much in a certain way, because he has been undisciplined. He has said things that embarrass the party and himself. He has done things that, you know, were scandalous. And so he has to make the case, I'm - this is the new Newt and that, you know, things have changed fundamentally. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We want to hear from former Cain supporters – well, they still may be Cain supporters, but they can't support him anymore, he's left the race. Where do you go now? 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. Paul's on the line calling from Philadelphia. PAUL: Hi. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Hi, go ahead, please. PAUL: I'm a 27-year-old conservative from Philadelphia. I was a Cain supporter partly because of his private-sector experience. And to vote for Newt Gingrich doesn't seem to make sense. I'm tending to think I'm going to be a Romney supporter now. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Romney supporter. Any particular reason why? PAUL: I do like his business experience. I think he's actually, believe it or not, more consistent on conservative values than Newt Gingrich. It's - I'm tempted by Bachmann, but I think that Romney has a better chance of winning. NEAL CONAN, HOST: All right, Paul, thanks very much for the call, appreciate it. And let's go next to - this is Chris(ph), and Chris is calling from Fort Bragg in North Carolina. CHRIS: Hi. NEAL CONAN, HOST: You're on the air, Chris, go ahead, please. CHRIS: All right, thank you. Well, yeah, I was a Cain supporter. I'm a soldier in the Army, and I guess what I really liked about Herman Cain was that he was willing to make some kind of major changes to our tax structure. I liked that his 9-9-9 plan might try to, you know, at least take a different angle and maybe wipe out our bad tax code. CHRIS: And so now I'm starting to look at Ron Paul because while he does seem to be a little bit out there, I really feel that he might be able to make the changes like sort of the more drastic changes that I feel we might need due to the economic system. CHRIS: I guess maybe my question for Mr. Rudin is: Does he think that that's a viable option, or what's his take on that? NEAL CONAN, HOST: Ron Paul now second in the polls in Iowa. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Well, at least nominally second, very close to Mitt Romney, who could be third, and of course George H. W. Bush finished third in Iowa in 1988 and ended up winning the presidency. It's interesting to go from Herman Cain to Ron Paul because Ron Paul seems to have detailed, specific views on policies going back to his, you know, run for president in 1988 as a libertarian, whereas Herman Cain seemed to be doing it by the seat of his pants. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: I don't know where Libya is. I don't know what Ubeki-beki-beki-stan(ph) - who's this Becky he keeps talking about? It just seems like, you know, Ron Paul represents a certain - obviously, a certain part of the libertarian wing of the Republican Party, whereas Herman Cain, I just never thought... NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, we... KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: ...I never understood it. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Mike Gerson, we do talk about the steady numbers of Mitt Romney. They don't go up above 25 percent anywhere... MICHAEL GERSON: That's true. NEAL CONAN, HOST: ...but they're all... MICHAEL GERSON: They, generally, go down below 20, although they're a little bit below that now. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So Ron Paul has been building steadily. He's now in a top-tier candidate, you have to say it. MICHAEL GERSON: No, I agree with that. I think Iowa is not a Romney-Gingrich race. I think it's a Romney-Gingrich-Ron Paul and maybe a fourth more conservative candidate like Bachmann or Santorum that's going to get a significant amount of support. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Not Rick Perry? Not Rick Perry? MICHAEL GERSON: I don't think so, although he will maintain some support. I think that they want, you know, religious conservatives are very strong in that process in Iowa. There's a number that will settle on a candidate there. I'm not sure that that's all bad for Romney. I mean, he wants to - if he would have finished second in Iowa, I think they would have taken that early in the process. I mean, he - that was never his strength. I think it's more disturbing what seems to be happening in South Carolina, where Gingrich has a lot of momentum. MICHAEL GERSON: But it's a, you know, I think it's more of a race in Iowa, and, you know, a month is a long time for Gingrich to make some mistakes. I think he's right now - or could be close to his high point in this primary process. And it depends on what he does and how much he loses. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Ron Paul has certainly - thanks very much for the call, Chris, by the way. Ron Paul has certainly demonstrated organizational strength in Iowa and other places. And he also has a fair amount of money, and he's running ads in Iowa as well. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: What's up with these sorry politicians? UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Lots of bark. When it's show time, whimpering... UNIDENTIFIED MAN: ...like little Shih Tzus. You want big cuts? Ron Paul's been screaming it for years. Budget crisis? No problem. Cut a trillion bucks year one. That's trillion with a T. Department of Education - gone. Interior, Energy, HUD, Commerce - gone. Later, bureaucrats. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: That's how Ron Paul rolls. Want to drain the swamp? Ron Paul. Do it. PAUL: I'm Ron Paul, and I approve this message. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Ron Paul, as we mentioned, second in the polls in Iowa, very close to Mitt Romney, who is third. Leading those polls is Newt Gingrich. We're talking about where we stand a month out from the Iowa caucuses with Michael Gerson, who's a columnist for The Washington Post, also with us, of course, NPR's political junkie Ken Rudin. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And does Iowa be - will Iowa be the last stand? You'd think Michele Bachmann, for example, has to do well, top-three finish in Iowa or what credibility does she have left? MICHAEL GERSON: I think that's fair. Her roots are there. This is the perfect state for her appeal. I think that's true. I think it's also interesting that Ron Paul has been carrying the anti-Gingrich message the toughest. He had an ad up calling attention to the fact that Gingrich was a consultant for Freddie Mac when he was criticizing politicians that were supporting Freddie Mac, a very tough ad. And so I think that that's probably, you know, maybe helping Romney to some extent as well. And Romney's newest ad when you look at it is talking about how he's been married to one wife for so long. I mean, it's... NEAL CONAN, HOST: Meant to draw an implication there? MICHAEL GERSON: Right. MICHAEL GERSON: It's not a very subtle... KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Newt Gingrich has also been married 42 years but just not to the same (unintelligible). MICHAEL GERSON: Exactly. So, you know, but I do think it's obviously make or break for some of these candidates that are - that have a religious conservative appeal because Iowa is the place where a religious conservative has to emerge. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There are some, though, interesting column by George Will over the weekend who said Romney to Gingrich from bad to worse. He calls Mitt Romney a conservative of convenience - that familiar flip-flop charge. But had this to say about Newt Gingrich: Newt Gingrich embodies the vanity and rapacity that make modern Washington repulsive. There is his anti-conservative confidence that he has a comprehensive explanation of and a plan to perfect everything. This is an appeal for yet the last-minute dark-horse candidate to come riding to the rescue when he appeals for a reconsideration of Rick Perry and indeed Jon Huntsman. MICHAEL GERSON: I hear a number of people talking particularly about Huntsman as a possibility, that he's more conservative than his image talks about, but, you know, I don't know. I mean, the Republicans' primary voters do not report being upset about their choices. They don't say that they don't believe it's a weak field. Now, I think objectively it is a pretty weak field compared to what it might have been if people like Mitch Daniels or Mike Huckabee or others have gotten in the race. This would have been a stronger field. But I'm not sure that that too many Republicans are thinking that they want a complete outsider in this race. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Ken? KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: Yeah. I think Mitch Daniels was a strong candidate until he got into the race, and then he would have been ripped apart just like everybody else has been. But I'm writing down all these things we've thought we knew about this process. You need money to compete in Iowa. Newt Gingrich doesn't have money. You need organization. He doesn't have that. You need family values. We talked about that as well. You need the anti-Washington, anti-lobbyist issue, and there's the Freddie Mac thing. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: You have the ethics issue, which is - Republicans are very strongly on. And, of course, Gingrich was reprimanded by the House in 1997. He seems to be violating every possible previous rule on the road to the nomination, and yet, right now, he's the flavor of the month. MICHAEL GERSON: Well, that's assuming that this is not just another balloon candidate that gets popped in this process. I mean, he has a significant number of liabilities. But I go back to it - this - it does indicate something serious about Romney himself in this process. People have serially looked for alternatives. And a large group of voters has been willing to accept whoever has momentum as long as they're not Romney. That I think is a pretty bad sign. That doesn't mean he will be a bad general election candidate, but it means that this could be a long race in this process. MICHAEL GERSON: He will compete in a lot of states and do quite well, and there's proportional representation. He will gain a lot of delegates, but there's going to be, I think, a real race here. NEAL CONAN, HOST: A war of attrition though - organization, money. Newt Gingrich did not file in time to get on the ballot in Missouri, not a critical state but an indication of his problems. MICHAEL GERSON: No, I think that's true. When I - I was just a month ago in Iowa, and he essentially had no staff in Iowa at that point. You know, I met with someone there that was the Gingrich person and said that they had a lunch with him that day, and that they've never met one another before, the people that were supporting him in the state. You know, he has lost much of his staff to other campaigns, particularly to Perry's campaign. And, you know, I think he has a risk here. MICHAEL GERSON: He has not run an effective campaign. In fact, he's lost a lot of people, and he's ran a rather poor campaign. Now, he's ahead. I think he - the risk is that he'll feel like he's been rewarded for the way that he's run this campaign because I don't think that's, you know, the reason that he is where he is now because he's done something innovative or interesting. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Michael Gerson, columnist for The Washington Post, joined us here in studio 3A, along with, of course, Ken Rudin, our political junkie. And just a reminder, Ken, we're on the road next month to both Iowa and then to New Hampshire as we do The Political Junkie in those states, ahead of those critical balloting contests. KEN RUDIN, BYLINE: And don't forget Saturday debate, Republican debate on "ABC News" from Iowa, big debate on Saturday.

Newt Gingrich has risen to the top of the polls at a pivotal moment. With less than one month until the Iowa Caucuses, he has a double-digit lead in the state. Political junkie Ken Rudin and columnist Michael Gerson talk about how the field of GOP candidates is faring in the final stretch.

Newt Gingrich ist in einem entscheidenden Moment an die Spitze der Umfragen aufgestiegen. Mit weniger als einem Monat bis zum Iowa Caucus hat er einen zweistelligen Vorsprung im Bundesstaat. Politjunkie Ken Rudin und Kolumnist Michael Gerson sprechen darüber, wie sich das Feld der GOP-Kandidaten im Endspurt schlägt.

纽特·金里奇在一个关键时刻上升到了民意调查的榜首。离爱荷华州党内初选还有不到一个月的时间，他在该州以两位数的优势领先。政治迷肯·鲁丁和专栏作家迈克尔·格尔森谈论了共和党候选人在最后阶段的表现。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is Hanging On, our continuing series about the American middle class, looking at the economic pressures of American life in 2016. And today we're talking about the housing bubble. What bubble, you say? Wasn't that the thing that caused the Great Recession? And isn't it over now? RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yes, all that is true, but our next guest says there are signs another housing bubble may be on the horizon. Stephen Oliner used to be with the Federal Reserve Board. Now he's at UCLA, where he analyzes real estate markets, and he's here now. Thanks so much for being with us. STEPHEN OLINER: Thanks, Rachel. I'm really happy to be with you. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You track housing market indicators. What are you seeing right now? STEPHEN OLINER: So we're seeing worrying signs of building excesses again in the housing and the mortgage markets. It's not that we're in a crisis today or in a bubble today, but there are trends underway that, if they'd run for a very long time, will put us back into a situation that will look a little bit like what we had in the last crisis. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's unbelievable because we went through all kinds of collective strife over this, and there was legislation passed. So before we get into what didn't work in all those changes, what specifically are you seeing? What are the indicators? STEPHEN OLINER: So there are really two types of indicators. The first concerns the risk that's in the mortgage loans that are being made today. So at the American Enterprise Institute, where I have a position as well as at UCLA, we analyze about 80 percent of the individual home mortgage loans made every month to purchase homes. And many of these loans are very risky, subprime-style loans that are now being made with government guarantees rather than being held by private investors. But nonetheless, they're quite risky. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How can this be possible? I mean, the whole problem, as I understand it, was that people who could not afford these mortgages were being enticed into signing on the dotted line, and the lenders knew it. STEPHEN OLINER: Right, so the element of fraud that was rampant during the financial crisis in the lead-up to the bubble, that's basically gone. But there still are other ways for loans to be risky in many dimensions, and that is still happening. So let me give you just a couple of specifics. Now, we normally think that people in a prudent lending situation will put down 10 or 20 percent. That's so old-school. That's not happening now. The median down payment for a first-time buyer in the United States is 3 and a half percent. STEPHEN OLINER: If they were to turn around and need to sell the house, they wouldn't get enough money to repay the mortgage. So they're actually underwater on day one of the mortgage. There are other ways in which the mortgages are risky. One is that people are still stretching to buy bigger houses with larger monthly payments than is really safe given their incomes, and that is completely allowable under our current mortgage regulations. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Which is good and bad, right? After the housing crisis, people were so scared that nobody wanted to buy anything. And now you're saying we've overcompensated and people are living beyond their means again. STEPHEN OLINER: Yes, that is what I'm saying. And we tend to think that a very strict, regulatory framework was put in place that would prevent this from happening again. And the problem is the following - 80 percent or so of the loans that are being made in the United States today are loans that have a government guarantee of some kind, federal government guarantee, and those loans are exempt from the regulations. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what do you say, Stephen, to someone who is looking to get into the market right now and might be enticed by the fact that they only have to put 3 and a half percent down? STEPHEN OLINER: Right. So I would say a couple of things. First, I think homeownership is a great thing. And if you want to become a homeowner, that's fantastic. Don't do it, though, because you think it's going to be a great investment. In most cases, it's not. The second thing is don't stretch. Be honest about how much you can really afford to buy given your other expenses and how you predict your income will change over the next couple years. STEPHEN OLINER: And the third thing would be if possible, finance the purchase with a 15 or a 20-year mortgage so that you build up equity quickly and be much less likely to be in a situation where you're underwater at some point in the future. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Beware of the bubble. Stephen Oliner is an economist with the Ziman Center for Real Estate at the University of California, Los Angeles. Thanks so much, Stephen. STEPHEN OLINER: You're very welcome.

Double-digit price rises, easy credit and no money down — these all led to a housing bubble a decade ago. NPR's Rachel Martin asks UCLA economist Stephen Oliner if we are headed for disaster.

Zweistellige Preissteigerungen, leichte Kredite und kein Geldverlust – all dies führte vor einem Jahrzehnt zu einer Immobilienblase. Rachel Martin von NPR fragt den UCLA-Ökonomen Stephen Oliner, ob wir auf eine Katastrophe zusteuern.

两位数的价格上涨、宽松的信贷和没有资金贬值——这些都导致了十年前的房地产泡沫。NPR的瑞秋·马丁问加州大学洛杉矶分校的经济学家斯蒂芬·奥林纳，我们是否正在走向灾难。

MADELEINE BRAND, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand. ALEX CHADWICK, host: I'm Alex Chadwick. Coming up, the great-granddaughter of the greatest oil baron ever says Exxon needs to go more green, and we will talk with her. MADELEINE BRAND, host: Exxon reported big profits yesterday, but Wall Street wanted even more, and so Exxon's stock slipped a little. In general though, stocks are climbing. Yesterday the Dow closed above 13,000, the first time it has done so since January. You might think this is a little strange considering that the over-all economy is not doing so well. Well, here to explain this seeming contradiction is William Knapp. He's an investment strategist for a division of New York Life. And Mr. Knapp, the stock market is up more than 10 percent, what's driving this increase? Mr. WILLIAM KNAPP (Investment Strategist, New York Life): Well, it's optimism with respect to the future. And being a predictive animal, the stock market will look forward to the recovery from the current period of economic stagnation. It may actually still see some negative headlines with respect to things like employment, production, inflation. But in the meantime, the stock market is trying to predict where profitability of the companies that make it up is going, as we head towards recovery later this year and early in 2009. MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, is it too soon to tell or can you tell right now if this is a permanent turnaround, a permanent increase or... Mr. WILLIAM KNAPP (Investment Strategist, New York Life): Well, I like to be optimistic and I think that it is. And I think recently we've had a pretty big change in sentiment with respect to investors in not only the equity market, but in fixed-income markets and commodity markets as well. MADELEINE BRAND, host: General Motors announced this week that it lost more than three billion dollars in the first quarter. Lots of other big companies have announced similar big losses, Citibank included. Why haven't these really bad earnings reports dragged down Wall Street? Mr. WILLIAM KNAPP (Investment Strategist, New York Life): Well, again, it's optimism with respect to the future principally, really other than the financial sector, companies in general are doing OK even though the economy has slowed. MADELEINE BRAND, host: How accurate is Wall Street's health as a barometer of the overall economy? You're saying it's predictive. Mr. WILLIAM KNAPP (Investment Strategist, New York Life): In general, I think it has been pretty accurate, and I think it's very accurate right now. Again, I'm not in a camp that thinks that we have been or going into a recession. And that I think that perhaps there has been a little mongering with respect to the level of economic stagnation that - if you look into the statistics, and if this is actually declared a recession, it'll be the weakest recession that the U.S. has ever had, if it's ever made official. MADELEINE BRAND, host: You're kind of in the minority of... Mr. WILLIAM KNAPP (Investment Strategist, New York Life): I am. I am, but I think I've got the evidence on my side. And we saw that for instance today in the payroll survey number while it was weak, and 20,000 fewer jobs in the economy, it's certainly not reflective of a severe slowdown. In a severe slowdown, you would expect that number to be minus about 100,000 or minus 200,000. So, while, you know, regrettable for the folks who lost their job, it's not nearly as weak a picture as maybe some other forecasters would portray. MADELEINE BRAND, host: I guess that might be small comfort to people who go to the grocery store and say, oh, I can't afford to buy as many groceries as I could before. I can't afford to fill up my car anymore or I'm about to lose my house. Mr. WILLIAM KNAPP (Investment Strategist, New York Life): I still think that those prices will come down as supplies pick up in agricultural commodities, as we hopefully will have a pretty decent growing season. And that some of the speculation will be removed from the energy-related commodities as people become more interested in the stock market. That's always been the case after every recession. There is that period of recovery, and I think that the worst is over with respect to the credit crisis, and with respect to this economic slowdown, and then we can start looking forward to a more optimistic future. MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, thank you very much. Mr. WILLIAM KNAPP (Investment Strategist, New York Life): Well, Madeleine, thank you. MADELEINE BRAND, host: My pleasure. That's William Knapp. He's an investment strategist for a division of New York Life.

Despite fears of a recession and the reality of hard times around the country, the stock market is looking up. An investment strategist discusses the optimism.

Trotz Rezessionsängsten und der Realität harter Zeiten im ganzen Land blickt der Aktienmarkt nach oben. Ein Anlagestratege diskutiert den Optimismus.

尽管对经济衰退的担忧以及全国各地经济困难时期的现实，股市正在回升。一位投资策略师讨论了乐观预计。

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Erik Prince the controversial founder of the security firm Blackwater is generating more controversy, this time in China. Another company he founded, Frontier Services Group, recently announced on its website that it had signed a deal to build a training center in Xinjiang province. That's in the far west of the country. It is where the Chinese government has detained as many as a million Uighur Muslims. Later, the statement was taken down. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So to figure out what might be going on, we turn to Emily Rauhala of The Washington Post. She wrote about the company's plans to build in Xinjiang last year. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Hey, there. EMILY RAUHALA: Hi. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Start with what we know Erik Prince and his company, Frontier Services Group - what they're already doing in China. They operate a training center outside Beijing, and you've actually been there. Tell us what it looks like, what's going on. EMILY RAUHALA: That's right. His company invested in a school just outside Beijing. It's built like a compound with high black walls, a castlelike gate. And inside, there's a variety of training facilities - a mock village for drills about hostage negotiations, gym facilities and courses in self-defense, that type of thing. And we toured the school, and they gave us a sense of the type of training they give, both for Chinese military and Chinese police. And they said they'd trained about a couple thousand personnel already and had plans for expansion. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: OK. Stay with the plans for expansion because you were reporting on this. And those plans for expansion include opening this training center in Xinjiang. What is the vision for that as you've been able to discern? EMILY RAUHALA: So what we found when we went to speak to them in May was that they had plans to build what they were calling a forward-operating base in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in China's far northwest. This is an area that's really tightly controlled by the Chinese government - by Chinese security personnel, both military, intelligence and regular police. So we were immediately like - wow, the Chinese government's going to let you go out there and build a school? And they said, yep, there is a really - a strong need for expertise in anti-terror operations, in how to protect logistics and supply chains. And we have plans to open a school. It's under construction. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Now, a spokesman for Frontier Services Group says that this whole statement announcing that Xinjiang was going ahead was posted by mistake and says Erik Prince was not involved. Do we know? I mean, does that seem plausible to you given your reporting? EMILY RAUHALA: Well, I'm unable to know, you know, what he does or doesn't know. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Sure. EMILY RAUHALA: But what I can tell you is we visited this school, interviewed the founder and also interviewed a ton of sort of former executives from this company last spring for our - ahead of publication. We took those findings to Frontier Services Group. Erik Prince's personal spokesman got back to us and said, sure, we'll answer questions if you send an email. We sent an email. And then a spokesperson for Frontier Services Group, the company, got back to us saying they would not, in fact, answer the questions. EMILY RAUHALA: So as early as May, we know that his personal spokesman knew about this. You know, then of course, there was the announcement posted on the company's own website last week and then taken down. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Erik Prince, as we noted, is a controversial figure. There's the history with Blackwater. He is under scrutiny for a meeting he took in the Seychelles with associates of Vladimir Putin. And he is highly connected with the current administration, just to note. Are his connections with the Trump administration - his sister is President Trump's education secretary - are those a factor at all here? Are they in play? EMILY RAUHALA: I think they're certainly a factor in terms of why people are so interested in this guy. The fact that someone like this could be going into business with Chinese companies that are closely tied to the Chinese Communist Party raises a lot of questions. U.S. law stipulates that you cannot, in fact, you know, sell U.S. defense information or secrets - make money off them - to a foreign government. And so I think there was a lot of concern among his associates and others that this project could potentially violate those rules, though, just to be clear, there's been no sort of concrete allegation or evidence of that to this point. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And to be clear, the mere training of security personnel in China would not be a violation of U.S. law. It would be if national security information were compromised in some way. EMILY RAUHALA: Right. You can't sort of sell U.S. know-how overseas. So people were concerned that because he had such close ties to the U.S. defense sector that doing business and making money with Chinese companies could potentially run him afoul of these rules. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Emily Rauhala, she was Beijing correspondent for The Washington Post. Now she covers foreign affairs from here in Washington. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Thanks so much. EMILY RAUHALA: Thank you.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly talks with Emily Rauhala of The Washington Post about the China operations of Frontier Services Group, a security training company co-founded by Erik Prince.

Mary Louise Kelly von NPR spricht mit Emily Rauhala von der Washington Post über die China-Operationen der Frontier Services Group, einer von Erik Prince mitbegründeten Firma für Sicherheitstraining.

国家公共电台的玛丽·路易斯·凯利就前沿服务集团在中国的业务的问题对话《华盛顿邮报》的艾米丽·劳哈拉。该集团是由埃里克·普林斯联合创办的一家安全培训公司。

NEAL CONAN, HOST: There is longstanding wisdom that politics and religion have no place at the dinner table, but millions of us head over the river and through the woods with last night's debate or Afghanistan or Climategate on our minds, and this year's turkey may come with a garnish of pepper spray. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And that leaves the politics of food and football for dessert. A lively exchange of ideas at your house, or the prelude to heartburn? How do politics come up at your family table? Give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Later in the program, we want your nominations for once-common sounds that your kids may never hear. When was the last time you heard a record skip? Give us a call: 800-989-8255, when the time comes, or you can send us an email now. The address is talk@npr.org. NEAL CONAN, HOST: But first, politics at Thanksgiving. And this is a subject that often comes up as, well, some decide it's a teachable moment, good for all generations to engage in a lively debate. Others wonder whether, in fact, the stuffing is going to end up in everybody's hair before it is all done. 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. And let's see if we can begin with a caller. Let's go to Miguel, Miguel with us from Tulsa. MIGUEL: Yes, hello. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And how does politics come up at your Thanksgiving table? MIGUEL: Well, my father-in-law is notorious for just always diving into different topics. He's the only conservative, while me, my wife and my brother-in-law are, you know, more on the left and, you know, are just - you know, we don't go that far right. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So he starts in, and everybody's eyes start rolling? MIGUEL: Yeah, exactly. And, of course, you know, it's - he's over for dinner, or we're out, and he just cannot help himself. He just starts to go off about, you know, the president this, or, you know, one thing or another. And usually, my brother-in-law will just, you know, take aim at him, and then they start to get into it, and then we're just like oh, boy. Here we go, you know. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So are you headed over there for Thanksgiving again this year? MIGUEL: Well, he's going to come. You know, we're going to celebrate, actually, on Friday. But yeah, we're all going to get together. And we're just going to, you know, politely say in the beginning, you know, let's just not even go there. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, good luck. Thanks very much for the call, Miguel. Happy Thanksgiving. MIGUEL: Thank you. Bye-bye. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Despite the risks, some say we need an even bigger helping of politics with turkey dinner. Technology analyst Paul Saffo argued it's time to dump the taboo on talking politics at dinner in a piece that ran earlier this year in the San Francisco Chronicle. He's with us now from member station KQED in San Francisco. Nice to have you with us today, and Happy Thanksgiving. PAUL SAFFO: Happy Thanksgiving, Neal. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And you say that refusal to talk politics at the dinner table is killing our democracy. PAUL SAFFO: We need to talk about politics more. I'm not sure if we should do it over Thanksgiving, and it's certainly not a good idea to do it without advance notice. But having dinners where you get people together specifically to talk about a political issue or a policy issue I think is a very good idea because, you know, everybody in Washington is talking about it all the time. The rest of aren't. That's a bad mix. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So make agreements ahead, so with the appetizer, deficits. Later, as you get to the main course, it can be Occupy Wall Street? PAUL SAFFO: I think deficits go great with dessert. PAUL SAFFO: But I think that picking a topic, the way I think about it is you invite some friends over, and you tell them in advance: Why don't we talk about this particular subject? And ask people to take a quick look on the Web. And, you know, thanks to things like Wikipedia, everybody can become an instant policy expert. And have a conversation about the issues, not just wade randomly in. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So - well, in other words, know a little bit of what they're talking about. PAUL SAFFO: Well, that's the whole point. You know, the problem with most of our conversations these days is they're bumper-sticker conversations: Sling a slogan, not listen to the other person and then have sullen silence. I realize that's a Thanksgiving tradition for many families. I'd hate to see us lose it. PAUL SAFFO: But it can be hugely entertaining to watch. But the point is to learn something new. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Hugely entertaining to watch - not so much fun to participate in. PAUL SAFFO: Yes, true. But I think we've all been guilty. I mean, we all have that uncle or that cousin, and you know there are two people, if you just light the spark, you just sit back and watch as they go at it. And it makes for great conversations over dessert. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And let's see if we can get another caller in on this. Tom's with us from Circleville in Ohio. TOM: Hi, thanks for having me on. Wonderful show. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Do you talk politics at Thanksgiving? TOM: Not anymore. TOM: That is now - I come from a very large family, very diverse family. And one day the weather came up during Thanksgiving. It was really - we had a lot of snow, unusual snow. And I have one brother who is very rightwing, and he got up, basically threw his food down on the table and stomped out, said we're all leftists and everything. TOM: And, you know, there were other people that are Republican at the table, too. But what it was about, it was about the wild fluctuations of weather. NEAL CONAN, HOST: I see. So it was a climate change dispute? TOM: Yes, it was. And so we all got together, and whenever the whole family's together, there is no politics. We can talk about anything else, but no politics. No politicians are allowed. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And so is everybody getting back together and agreeing to talk about nothing more controversial than the mashed potatoes? TOM: That's it. You got it. We all get together. We talk about everything but politics, and get along fine. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, Tom, thanks very much for the call. Appreciate it. But as I understand it, Paul Saffo, had they made an agreement to talk about the politics of climate change, and people discussed their opinions, as opposed to it erupting unplanned - we could plan the menu, but not the discussion. PAUL SAFFO: Yeah, no, and I think that's exactly the way to approach it, is you pick a topic. And, you know, maybe if you really have a big divergence, you start with something non-controversial. But what I find in my life is whenever I travel overseas, all the dinner conversations are about politics and policy and world affairs. And when I come home, none of the conversations are. PAUL SAFFO: If the rest of the world can do this, surely Americans can learn to talk in a civil manner about issues that matter to us. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, joining us now is Andrew Wilson, a regular contributor to The American Spectator who wrote a piece on Thanksgiving and dinner-table politics for the Wall Street Journal a couple of years ago. He's with us from St. Louis. Andrew Wilson, nice to have you with us today. ANDREW WILSON: Well, thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, having read your piece, you have a large and politically diverse family. And I understand it, until fairly recently, it was no-holds-barred. ANDREW WILSON: Yes, it was. It was no-holds-barred when I was growing up in the 1950s and '60s. And my father was very much the patriarch, and he was a World War II naval skipper. And he encouraged vigorous competition between the children, and he tried to model the family on Joseph Kennedy's family. ANDREW WILSON: And so we were very much encouraged to debate each other at dinner, and there were seven of us children. And it was a fun scene, and we did discuss issues. And for outsiders who were seeing us for the first time, it was sometimes kind of shocking and appalling for them, because we would all try to shout each other down. But things have changed a lot since then. NEAL CONAN, HOST: What happened? ANDREW WILSON: Well, the political differences back then were, I think, minor compared to what we have now. You know, one of my earliest political memories was watching the Nixon-Kennedy debates. And Nixon and Kennedy really had to fish around for issues that they disagreed on. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Kimoi and Matsu, I think, were pretty much it. Yeah. ANDREW WILSON: Right. And then Kennedy came up with the missile gap. And so people were not as divided then as they are now. And I think that politics is far more personal now than it was then. It's personal in the sense that people are worried about their own futures. They're worried about the futures of their children and grandchildren. ANDREW WILSON: And they blame all of this on the political mess in Washington, D.C., but they have very difficult - different views on what constitutes that mess. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, joining us now is "Ask Amy's" Amy Dickinson, who writes the syndicated columnist "Ask Amy" for the Chicago Tribune. She joins us from time to time, and joins us now from the studios at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. And Amy, nice to have you, and Happy Thanksgiving. AMY DICKINSON: Thanks, same to you. Boy, what a great topic. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Do you discuss politics at your Thanksgiving table? AMY DICKINSON: Well, I have to say, I married into a huge family. My husband is one of 13 children, very - all of them very opinionated, very, very diverse. And they're - a normal dinnertime gets crazy. Thanksgiving out - it just rocks, you know. AMY DICKINSON: And so I actually - the family's starting to gather. So I went over last night, and I said okay, so I'm going to be on TALK OF THE NATION. How do you feel about talking politics? And then, of course, they all picked a fight with me, you know, because that's what they do. AMY DICKINSON: So here's the - here's my sort of nuanced view: I don't believe it's a good idea to ban subjects. You know, that doesn't feel right - to me, anyway. And Thanksgiving is a holiday of, you know, when you think about the original Thanksgiving, it's diverse groups coming together peacefully, right. AMY DICKINSON: So I like the idea of sort of trying to control the topic a little bit by suggesting that it happen at a certain time, maybe later in the meal. I actually believe in sitting down together and starting the meal with I call them prompts or toasts, where each person - for instance, one little game we can play is you write down on a little piece of paper what you're grateful for, and then you pass your piece of paper to the right, just one person to the right. AMY DICKINSON: Each person then reads what someone else is grateful for. And so little Sally might say: Uncle Buddy is grateful for the conceal-and-carry permit he got this year. AMY DICKINSON: And then somebody else says, like, you know, Cousin Susan seems to be grateful for the Occupy Wall Street movement. So it gets going, but this way, you have other people sort of being - introducing topics and ideas. And then you basically - what my husband's family said was: Look, it's really important to discuss these things, but to do so in a way - even when it gets heated, it has to end with a hug. AMY DICKINSON: And I have to say, I feel they're fairly successful at doing that. But I like a little more inclusion, a little more control, especially when there are so many generations at the table. One thing about politics is that it tends to dominate - you know, three or four people will dominate, and everyone else is just an audience. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And if you keep it towards the end of the meal, at least people can retreat and have a tea party in the living room and occupy the kitchen. AMY DICKINSON: Exactly, occupy the kitchen. NEAL CONAN, HOST: We're talking about political conversations at the Thanksgiving table: a lively exchange of ideas or the prelude to heartburn? How does politics come up at your Thanksgiving table? Give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. It can be a volatile mix around the dinner table at Thanksgiving: grandparents, aunts, uncles, in-laws, the kids back from college. Toss in the usual long-simmering tensions, maybe a glass or two of wine, and this year, especially, an overheated political season. It all adds up to a potential meltdown or maybe a lively exchange of ideas. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There's the Tea Party, Occupy Wall Street, the super committee and 2012, not to mention the politics of football, food and family rivalry. So tell us: How does politics come up at your dinner table? 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also get into the conversation on our website. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Our guests are Amy Dickinson, who writes the syndicated Ask Amy column for the Chicago Tribune; Paul Saffo, a freelance writer who wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal about political conversations, how they play out in his family; and also with us is Andrew Wilson, a writer and regular contributor to The American Prospect. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And let's see if we can get Suzie(ph) on the line. Suzie's calling us from St. Louis. SUZIE: Yes. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And how does politics come up at your Thanksgiving table? SUZIE: Well, for years we had a severe problem because my own father, being influenced by mailers from Congress Tom DeLay, believed that Clinton was guilty of murdering some 60-some people. And my mother-in-law, my husband's mom, believed that Clinton was such a dear young man that everybody was taking advantage of, and he had never done anything wrong. SUZIE: So we had to keep them apart, or we really had a ruination of a dinner. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And kept them apart how? SUZIE: We just had dinner at separate times for each of them. NEAL CONAN, HOST: I see. So there was the... SUZIE: Isn't that awful? NEAL CONAN, HOST: That is terrible. SUZIE: I think that with the change in generations, things had changed because both of them passed on in 2004. But now my eldest son has become a member of WikiLeaks, and even though my husband and I have moved to the left in subsequent years, it's a pretty strained conversation because my sister-in-law, who has moved to Boise, has - because she's moved to Boise, has become a gun-toting Westerner who believes seriously in individual rights. And so it's very hard to talk to her. NEAL CONAN, HOST: It kind of makes the debate over Fort Marcy and Hope, Arkansas, just a little bit - sound nostalgic, doesn't it? SUZIE: Yes. AMY DICKINSON: But you know what? Suzie brings up a great point because, you know, some of what we're going to be dealing with tomorrow is not just banning conversations but more sort of how to cope when they do happen. And that's when you have to come up with responses that aren't quite comebacks, but that are fairly satisfying. MIGUEL: Like do you remember the Johnny Carson, you might have a point. Of course, you might not have a point, but... NEAL CONAN, HOST: That was the H.L. Mencken boilerplate response: Dir Sir or Madam, you may be right. AMY DICKINSON: Right, you may be right. So, I mean, I think there are fairly benign ways to respond to people so that you don't excite them. Even if they're trying to excite you, you know, you can sort of derail a little bit. And if that fails, I really believe in using children as a human shield. AMY DICKINSON: Basically you hold up the baby, you go look at the baby, you know. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Suzie, have a happy Thanksgiving, I hope. SUZIE: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Paul Saffo, I wonder, when you get into situations like that, how does your idea of agreeing on a topic work out? PAUL SAFFO: Well, it usually - what I found is the dinner finds its own level with the topic. And so the people I have these conversations with, are already talking about them. But the conversation in advance of the meal, saying let's pick this topic, I think is a great way to get things started. PAUL SAFFO: Above all, what it does is it sets people up to be prepared to have their mind changed and to admit when they don't know something. So it becomes cooperative conversation of mutually discovering what could be going on. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Do you ever discover that the dialogue at the grownup table is lower than that at the kids' table, and so are not? PAUL SAFFO: Absolutely, and by the way, I'm completely with Amy. I think throwing children into the breach is always a good idea. And thinking of, you know, little deflection points. Have firebreaks ready so when things do get too heated, you say, so how about those Dodgers? And what do you think about the ownership? NEAL CONAN, HOST: Andrew Wilson, might any of those ploys work in your house? ANDREW WILSON: I don't think so. You know, I think that my brothers and sisters are more combative than that, and our tradition is one much more of chaos and conflict. And I am something of a contrarian myself, and I do miss the old battles that we used to have. ANDREW WILSON: You know, these days we do exercise some self-censorship, and we don't want to lose the sense that we love each other, and we're great friends and so forth. And so that's why we've backed off a bit. But I think we've lost something in the process. ANDREW WILSON: You know, it's not quite as much fun. It's not as boisterous. It's not as rollicking as it used to be, and I don't think that picking a topic or separating people is what we want to do in my extended family. You know, but I would like to see more discussion than what we've had. ANDREW WILSON: But as I say, it's difficult, because people think that the stakes are very high in the political argument of our time. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Here's an email from Veronica(ph) in Washington, D.C.: Politics are always discussed. I've never known a family dinner without a lively conversation filled with politics and/or religion. We live in D.C., so I think it's a part of daily life. Nobody ever gets upset. It's awfully fun and enlightening. Let's see if we can go to Jeff(ph), and Jeff's with us from Menomonie in Wisconsin. JEFF: Yeah, I'd just like to add that my family has a family dinner once a month, and we have 20 or 30 people get together. And so we get together all the times of the year, and politics is always part of the conversation. And we really learn a lot from each other, and it's all we really talk about. JEFF: I'm the only liberal. There's tons of Republicans, tons of conservatives with the family. And they're all talking about the end of the world and how they're scared of the economic collapse. So we have gardens starting. We have rice in the attic. It's crazy. But... NEAL CONAN, HOST: Oh, I see, emergency supplies of rice in the attic. JEFF: Yeah. JEFF: No, but it's - we all have a civil conversation each month, and Thanksgiving included, and we all learn something from each other. And I think that's something that we're losing at the dinner table these days is we're not - we're all afraid of talking about the challenging choices and about politics. And I think we just need to let it out and get everyone included, you know, the youngest generations to the oldest. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Jeff, good luck tomorrow. JEFF: Thank you, it'll be fun. AMY DICKINSON: You know what? NEAL CONAN, HOST: Go ahead, Amy. AMY DICKINSON: I have a theory about that. I love what Jeff's family does, and it makes me wonder if they are doing what we used to do when I was growing up in the '70s: We had dinner together every single night. And there was the year that my dad voted for Wallace, and my mother voted for McGovern. AMY DICKINSON: But we sort of - we were practiced. I mean, his family gets together, and they are basically practicing. So many of us, we don't see one another but at this huge feast meal, and we don't know how to do it. You know, maybe we just don't know how to have these conversations. NEAL CONAN, HOST: It's interesting, Paul Saffo, we sometimes - you mentioned other countries. The style of debate, in particularly, Britain is - well, the level of conversation, it seems to be considerably elevated than what we have here because we don't do it a lot. It's been interesting to watch these last debates. The one last night, these guys are catching on. Maybe we need more practice talking politics. PAUL SAFFO: Well, I think we all need to learn how to get our conversational muscles back in shape. I love Andrew's father's instincts on this, and I sometimes think maybe what we need to do is invoke the memory of dead, you know, patriarchs of different political parties, whether it's Kennedy on that side or a conservative on the other, where there was the tradition of this talking. PAUL SAFFO: I was in - at a dinner in Paris, earlier this - or late last year, and, you know, boy, talk about knock-down, drag-out. You had both extremes, very vigorous debate at the table. I almost imagined that perhaps a knife would be tossed. And then at the end of the evening, everybody air-kissed each other and said we've got to do this again on the weekend. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And that was before Dominique Strauss-Kahn. PAUL SAFFO: Indeed. NEAL CONAN, HOST: So all right, let's get another caller in. Let's go to Benita(ph), Benita with us from Naples in Florida. BENITA: Hi there, love your program. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thank you. BENITA: I'm taking notes because the tradition in my family was that I as an atheist was called upon to say grace, and of course I'm reluctant to. And it would just sort of deteriorate from there. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Amy, maybe this is a moment for some advice. It seems to me that you can say a very gracious grace without necessarily appealing to a higher power. AMY DICKINSON: Right, and honestly, if your family is insisting that you do this, knowing that you are an atheist, it's kind of a hostile way to start. But, you know, you can never fail by being very gracious, very gentle, and, you know, even when things get heated, you say, you know, what I like about you is your passion. You know, you just remember - you think of something positive, and you reflect that back to the person. AMY DICKINSON: It can throw people off. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And maybe just accidentally spill some gravy on that person next to you. BENITA: Thank you for your advice. I will use it. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Good luck. AMY DICKINSON: And, you know, there's another way to conduct heated conversations. This comes from sort of marriage counseling, where you give somebody an object, say the salt shaker. Whoever is holding the salt shaker gets to speak. No one who isn't holding the salt shaker can speak. This basically slows things down a little bit. In order to speak, you have to basically ask permission for the salt shaker. And it can become kind of a game, but it does - I think it tends to slow things down a little bit. It tamps things down and sometimes it injects a tiny bit of humor and fun into it. NEAL CONAN, HOST: That's not unlike arranging for topics or unlike some sort of structure. So planning the conversation a little bit might be as wise as, as we suggested earlier, planning the menu, don't you think, Paul? PAUL SAFFO: Absolutely. And when you plan the conversation, you can also have nice counterfactuals. I was at one of those dinners recently where politics came up here in California and indeed with friends who had moved to the country because of the imminent collapse of the world. And I remember the - me, I looked at their life and said, I'll stick with the city and take the collapse. But the subject of prisons in California came up, and the wonderful counterfactual - I happened to be faculty member at Stanford - and I said, well, you know, I think being tough on crime is fine except in California. It costs us $55,000 a year to house a prisoner, which is $5,000 more than a year it takes to put a student through Stanford and that we could just solve all the problems. Take the prisoners out of prison, put them in Stanford, problem solved. NEAL CONAN, HOST: There you go. PAUL SAFFO: But it really knocks people off balance when you say, you know, by the way, here's the cost of the policy that you endorse. Are you really sure you want that? NEAL CONAN, HOST: We're talking with Paul Saffo, managing director of foresight at Discern Analytics in San Francisco. Amy Dickinson is with us as well, writes the "Ask Amy" syndicated column for the Chicago Tribune. And Andrew Wilson, a writer and regular contributor to the American Prospect and the Weekly Standard... ANDREW WILSON: American Spectator. NEAL CONAN, HOST: ..excuse me, American Spectator. Forgive me for that. And we're having a very civil conversation because none of us can see each other. So we're out of range of that ball of mashed potatoes that would otherwise be winging at somebody's head. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And let's see if we can go next to Ron(ph). Ron with us from Walnut Creek. RON: Hey, Neal. Wonderful show. Thanks for having me on. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thanks. RON: So I grew up in a large Italian family. And in the early days, as I was growing up, we used to be able to talk about politics, and I've noticed in the last five years that things have gotten very contentious. But we've all agreed to just talk about the things that unify us, sports teams and the weather, and that's about it. So it's very benign conversations. It feels like we're doing what the government is doing or the politicians are doing, which is nothing. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Oh, kicking the can down the road. RON: That's right. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Yeah. Sports, though, clearly you don't have relatives from New York and Boston. RON: No, that's right. We're all in one state, so everything is kind of - we tend to coalesce around one specific team, and that's the 49ers. So... NEAL CONAN, HOST: And so how about - they're doing extremely well this year too, so it's going to be - it should be a good day tomorrow. RON: Good - great day for football tomorrow. And the 49ers are playing, so we're going to have a very happy Thanksgiving. NEAL CONAN, HOST: I wonder, Amy, how has the insertion of football on Thanksgiving Day changed all of this, do you think? AMY DICKINSON: You know, I'm not loving this, actually, because frankly for some of us, sports is as exclusionary as some other topics. So I would like to remind everyone that there aren't just topics of conversation. There's actual talking and listening. There's - what's happening with you? What's going on with you these days? How's your job, you know? How's your house? How was your - what's your life like? I mean, there's that. Don't you think that's kind of a thing to do at Thanksgiving too? NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, there's other opportunities too. There's before and after, so it's not just the dinner table, but that might be an opportunity to, well, exchange ideas - what you're thinking about too. AMY DICKINSON: Exactly. Right. Asking open-ended questions, I think, is always a good idea. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's go to Tom(ph), Tom with us from Hudson in North Carolina. TOM: Thank you for taking my call. I love this show. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thank you. TOM: I run a competitive model United Nations club for middle school. And one of the debates we had recently was over the Syrian crackdown. And the kids are going home and basically teaching their parents about the seriousness of it and also things they're learning, such as kids being tortured to expose their parents as dissenters. And I've been getting a lot of really good feedback. The kid - the parents will call me or email me and just talk about how their kids are just going on and on about what they're learning. And they got to see footage of the crackdowns and... NEAL CONAN, HOST: Mm-hmm. I applaud your idea, Tom. As a general principle, though, do you think Thanksgiving should be a teach-in? TOM: No, I'm just - we were on the conversation of politics at the dinner table. We - just the whole fact of their bringing up things like, is this a moral issue or is this a state sovereignty issue or what should we do. And I'm getting a lot of good feedback from the parents about just what their kids are learning and how much they know. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Assign topic, Paul Saffo, do you think? PAUL SAFFO: Well, again, I'm not a fan of assigning topics on Thanksgiving. But on other occasions, this is a great idea. You know, at the end of the day, I think the goal here is Americans need to remember that politics isn't just about opinion. It's also about facts and civics. And we've slid into a culture that's gone far from the age of Andrew's father, where people seem to believe that they're entitled to an opinion even when they don't have the facts. And we - by having conversations with people of different views, we can certainly get back to that. But, yeah, I agree. Not on Thanksgiving. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Paul Saffo, have a great day tomorrow. Appreciate your time. PAUL SAFFO: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Andrew Wilson, happy Thanksgiving. ANDREW WILSON: OK, and happy Thanksgiving to you, too, Neal. NEAL CONAN, HOST: And, Amy, before we let you go, we have one other suggestion from Anne Hart, who wrote in the San Francisco Examiner: How about easing tensions at the Thanksgiving meal with a little classical music? AMY DICKINSON: I love it. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Amy Dickinson, we'll get you some Beethoven for your dinner tomorrow. AMY DICKINSON: Thank you, Neal. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Amy Dickinson writes the syndicated "Ask Amy" column for the Chicago Tribune and joined us today from Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. NEAL CONAN, HOST: Up next: sounds your kids may never hear. NEAL CONAN, HOST: An old-fashioned cash register, a flashbulb. What sound from your life has vanished? 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

Conventional wisdom advises against talking about politics at family gatherings, but that's often unrealistic. With the turbulent race for president and the roiling Occupy protests — not to mention the usual politics of food, football and in-laws — some discussion guidelines can be helpful. Andrew Wilson, writer and contributor, The American Prospect and The Weekly Standard Paul Saffo, managing director of foresight, Discern Analytics Amy Dickinson, syndicated columnist, Chicago Tribune

Nach konventionellen Ansichten wird es nicht empfohlen, bei Familienfeiern über Politik zu sprechen, aber das ist oft unrealistisch. Angesichts des turbulenten Rennens um den Präsidenten und der aufgewühlten Occupy-Proteste – ganz zu schweigen von der üblichen Essens-, Fußball- und Schwiegerelternpolitik – können einige Diskussionsleitlinien hilfreich sein. Andrew Wilson, Autor und Mitwirkender, The American Prospect und The Weekly Standard Paul Saffo, Managing Director von Foresight, Discern Analytics Amy Dickinson, syndizierte Kolumnistin, Chicago Tribune

传统观念不建议在家庭聚会上谈论政治，但这通常是不现实的。在混乱的总统竞选和激烈的占领抗议活动——更不用说通常的食物、足球和姻亲政治——一些讨论指南可能会有所帮助。安德鲁·威尔逊，《美国展望》和《标准周刊》的作家和撰稿人。保罗·萨佛，洞见分析公司的常务董事，艾米·迪金森，《芝加哥论坛报》的联合专栏作家

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: In recent months, Israel has let cash flow through its borders to one of its biggest enemies, Hamas, which runs the Gaza Strip. The money - millions of dollars - is from the country of Qatar. It was used to help Hamas pay the salaries of workers in their government. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Both Israelis and Palestinians have criticized the practice, and now it's being changed. NPR's Daniel Estrin reports from Gaza City. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: The main post office in Gaza City isn't very exciting. It's just a mid-rise tan building. But in the last few months, witnesses say something unusual happened here. Several cars pulled up to the back courtyard with a lot of security guards, and they took out suitcases stuffed with $15 million in $100 bills. This happened even though Israel has been trying to isolate Hamas since it took control here 12 years ago. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Economist Omar Shaban was as surprised as anyone. OMAR SHABAN: Israel transfer cash, money, dollar to Hamas. If you had said this two years ago, said, what are you - are you crazy? It's unbelievable. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Now, the money isn't from Israel. It's actually from Qatar, which had an envoy literally drive the cash across the Israeli border into Gaza. The idea was that Qatar would give Hamas $15 million a month for six months, and Hamas would reduce tensions along the fence between Gaza and Israel. That's where there have been months of protests with Israeli troops confronting Palestinian protesters. Officials say more than 180 Palestinians and an Israeli soldier were killed. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: (Praying in foreign language). DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Hamas used some of the money to pay its government workers, like this man, who leads the call to prayer at a local mosque. He would only give his name as Mohammed. Hamas hasn't paid its civil servants full salaries in years, and Gaza's economy is in shambles. Mohammed says he really needed the cash, but he still criticized the deal. MOHAMMED: (Foreign language spoken). DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: He said it was hush money, so Hamas quiets down the border protests. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Israelis didn't like it either. Many accuse Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of rewarding Hamas and buying quiet as he seeks re-election. The deal unraveled. There was violence. Israel blocked the cash. And then, when Israel finally allowed the cash again, Hamas refused to take it. HAZEM QASEM: (Foreign language spoken). DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Hamas spokesman Hazem Qasem says Hamas had been quelling the protests but also expected Israel to relax restrictions on Gaza. With the whole deal stalled, Qatar announced a new plan. The cash would be used for humanitarian projects and to aid the poor. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Now the money's flowing. At the Gaza City post office, $100 bills flutter through cash-counting machines, and men from needy families line up to get $100 each. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: (Foreign language spoken). DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Some tell me their hundred dollars will be gone at the end of the day, after they pay off part of their tab at the supermarket and buy new groceries. In Gaza, unemployment is estimated at around 50 percent, and imports and exports are tightly restricted by Israel and Egypt. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Omar Shaban, the economist, says Gaza needs much more. OMAR SHABAN: Gaza is in need for $100 million a month to revive its economy. The situation in Gaza for the last 12 years was under emergency. Everything was tried except the right medicine. Make election, get rid of Hamas in a very peaceful way and bring a new leadership, and then you can have development in Gaza. DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: It's unclear how long Qatar will keep the money coming, and Hamas' efforts to quiet down the protests may run out at some point, too. Daniel Estrin, NPR News, Gaza City.

Israel has been allowing Qatar to supply money to the Hamas-run government in the Gaza Strip. The practice caused controversy among Israelis and Palestinians and is now being changed.

Israel hat Katar gestattet, die von der Hamas geführte Regierung im Gazastreifen mit Geld zu versorgen. Diese Praxis löste eine Kontroverse zwischen Israelis und Palästinensern aus und wird nun geändert.

以色列一直允许卡塔尔向加沙地带哈马斯政府提供资金。这种在以色列人和巴勒斯坦人之间引起争议的做法现在正在改变。

DAVID GREENE, HOST: Good morning. I'm David Greene with news you're going to hate me for because - welcome to the rest of your day. DAVID GREENE, HOST: I know we report on this Toto song a lot. But come on. It's worth it. According to CNN, there's a new art installation out in the Namibian desert. It is six speakers playing "Africa" in Africa. They're powered by the sun, so the song is on an endless loop - just like in your head. TOTO: (Singing) I hear the drums echoing...

There's a new art installation in the Namibian desert, according to CNN. It's six speakers, playing "Africa" — in Africa. The speakers are powered by the sun — so the song is on an endless loop.

Laut CNN gibt es eine neue Kunstinstallation in der namibischen Wüste. Es sind sechs Lautsprecher, die „Afrika“ spielen – in Afrika. Die Lautsprecher werden von der Sonne gespeist – der Song befindet sich also in einer Endlosschleife.

据CNN报道，纳米比亚沙漠里有一个新的艺术装置。该装置有六个扬声器，在非洲播放“非洲”。扬声器是由太阳能供电的-所以这首歌会循环播放。

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Having courage doesn't mean that you're fearless. It means that you overcome your fears. Our member station WNYC has been asking people to name their fears, and we're sharing some. Today we hear from Samin Nosrat. She's the Iranian-American food writer behind the influential book, "Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat." And here are some of her fears. SAMIN NOSRAT: That the color of my skin will bring harm upon me. I've always been aware of being different, but I wasn't really aware of any sort of threat to my physical person because of the way I look until September 2001. At that time, I used to wear this agate necklace, and it had the Arabic names of, like, the five main prophets of Islam on there. And so I remember I got a flat tire a few days later, and the guy who was changing my tire was black. And he was like, oh, what's on your necklace? And I told him. And he was like, you've got to put that away. It's not safe to look like you look anymore. SAMIN NOSRAT: That no one will ever love me just as I am. There are a lot of etiquettes built into the way that Iranians relate to other people and other Iranians, and one of them is called taarof. So to taarof can mean something as simple as, if somebody offers you a cup of tea and you want it, you must first say no. And you might actually want the tea, but you just have to appear to not want the tea. Like, I had to actually have my therapist go watch videos of it so he could understand me and my culture. But, like, there's videos on YouTube of, like, Iranian parents training their kids. Like, here's a cookie. Do you want it? And the kid will be like, yes. And then the parent's like, no, no - you have to say no. (Laughter). And so it's this really complicated, like, brainwashing that I'm trying to unravel, but it is still something that controls me and probably will control me, you know, until I die. SAMIN NOSRAT: That I will get cancer. I had a sister born with a kind of a brain tumor that children can't survive. So she passed away when she was 3, and I was a baby. And in a lot of ways, that loss has affected my family life. And I think my mom always was guided by, like, things that she heard or thought could cause cancer and kept those things away from us. So, like, we never had a microwave. So I think that that's always been a little bit there in the back of my mind. SAMIN NOSRAT: I'll never find love. I - yeah, I don't have a long - let's put it this way. (Laughter). My professional resume is much longer and more filled out than my personal one. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Food writer Samin Nosrat. And you can hear the rest of her fears and other episodes whenever you listen to podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. Ten Things That Scare Me comes from WNYC Studios.

For a new podcast, member station WNYC has been asking: What scares you? Samin Nosrat, the Iranian-American food writer behind the cookbook, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, talks about some of her fears.

Für einen neuen Podcast hat der Mitgliedssender WNYC gefragt: Was macht dir Angst? Samin Nosrat, die iranisch-amerikanische Food-Autorin hinter dem Kochbuch Salz, Fett, Säure, Hitze (Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat), spricht über einige ihrer Ängste.

一个新的播客，会员站美国纽约公共广播一直在问：你害怕什么？萨敏·诺斯拉特，伊朗裔美国美食作家，烹饪书《盐、脂肪、酸、热量》的作者，谈到了她的一些恐惧。

DAVID GREENE, HOST: Each year, we catch up with James McClintock. He's a marine biologist with the University of Alabama, Birmingham who does research on climate change. And he makes an annual visit to Antarctica. We reached him by phone, as we have the last two years, at Palmer Station, a U.S. research facility on the Antarctic Peninsula. James McClintock, you there? JAMES MCCLINTOCK: Hey, David. Yes, I'm here. DAVID GREENE, HOST: I feel like I ask you this each time we speak, but I love starting with the question, how's the weather there? JAMES MCCLINTOCK: Well, it's a lovely day. It's probably in the high 30s maybe the low 40s, a little bit of cloud cover. They've had a record snowfall. But right now it's lovely, and the snow is not falling. So that's how it's going. DAVID GREENE, HOST: And I feel like I have taken a personal interest in the Adelie penguin population, who you talk about whenever we speak - I mean those little creatures who look like Charlie Chaplin in their little tuxedos. Are they of interest to you on this trip, and what do we know about them? JAMES MCCLINTOCK: The news is a little sad. The population of 15,000 breeding pairs of Adelie penguins has reached a new low. It's down to 1,100 this year. So over 90 percent of them are disappearing. What's happening mainly that's causing the big problem is that they come in at a very predetermined time of year to lay their eggs. And then along comes these unseasonably late snowstorms because it's getting warmer and more humid. Ironically, it's snowing later. And then the snow melts, and the eggs drown. So the Adelie's having a really tough time right now. DAVID GREENE, HOST: You arrive here, you know, each year. As you arrive this time and you look out at the landscape, does anything strike you as starkly different from the last time you were there? JAMES MCCLINTOCK: If you look behind the station, Lamar Glacier (ph) is just retreating very, very quickly. In fact, I was talking to a couple of Palmer Station staff this morning that went on a little camping trip the other day and spent the night sleeping on the rim next to the glacier. And they said they couldn't sleep. The glacier cracked, and pieces fell into the water all through the night. Like, every 20 minutes to half an hour. They'd be woken or be jarred by a crack of ice. This is indicative of 87 percent of the glaciers along the Western Antarctic Peninsula that are now in rapid retreat. This is just sort of the canary in the coal mine here. DAVID GREENE, HOST: We're now two years into a presidency in the United States with a president who really has cast a lot of doubt about climate change, also pulled out of the big Paris climate accord. Is that affecting your work at all or affecting the work of other researchers like you? JAMES MCCLINTOCK: Not so much here in the National Science Foundation program. But colleagues that are working in the Environmental Protection Agency, et cetera, are definitely experiencing some impacts on their climate-related research. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Are you worried at all about the future if, you know - as priorities shift based on a philosophy and a vision set by this president? JAMES MCCLINTOCK: Yeah. I think scientists in general are concerned because we see this as a very important time for this research. And we're looking for continued and perhaps even greater support to provide the kinds of information that'll be critical for policy decisions as we move into a future of climate change that is already upon us, quite frankly. DAVID GREENE, HOST: James McClintock, it is always great to catch up with you. Have a great trip, and best of luck in your research. JAMES MCCLINTOCK: Thank you, David.

David Greene talks to marine biologist James McClintock about how warming temperatures are impacting glaciers around the Antarctic Peninsula, and consequences of a global rise in sea level.

David Greene spricht mit dem Meeresbiologen James McClintock über die Auswirkungen der Erwärmung auf die Gletscher rund um die Antarktische Halbinsel und die Folgen eines globalen Anstiegs des Meeresspiegels.

大卫·格林与海洋生物学家詹姆斯·麦克林托克讨论气温升高如何影响南极半岛周围的冰川，以及全球海平面上升的后果。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Some people sing and some people channel the divine. Luciano Pavarotti seemed to bring the heavens to the Earth. Mr. LUCIANO PAVAROTTI (Opera Singer): (Singing) (Italian spoken) FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Pavarotti died yesterday at age 71 after a yearlong battle with pancreatic cancer. He often broke the mold of traditional opera by collaborating with acts like Barry White, Bono and James Brown. Mr. JAMES BROWN (Singer; Songwriter): (Singing) This is a man's world. Mr. LUCIANO PAVAROTTI (Opera Singer): (Singing) (Italian spoken) FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Pavarotti was one of the three original Three Tenors along with Placido Domingo and Jose Carreras. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There's a trio that continues that legacy but adds a little twist, and we are talking about Three Mo' Tenors. They infuse an African-American sensibility into music that includes, not only opera, but jazz, gospel, soul and blues. That singing puts a lot of strain on the vocalists, so the Three Mo' Tenors actually rotate among six different singers. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And today, we've got three of them Duane Moody, Victor Robertson and James Berger. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome guys. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Thank you. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Hello. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And so I saw you guys in Baltimore with my mom. I totally loved it. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Get out of here. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yes, it was just fabulous. So what was the first time that you heard Pavarotti sing - Duane, Victor, James? I don't know who wants to answer. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): The first time I heard Pavarotti, actually, was a recording. And I never had the pleasure of hearing him live. So - it was a recording in college. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): I think that everyone, if I remember a succession of(ph) singers where they - were the first time I heard Pavarotti and I was in the car, he was singing an aria from Boheme and it literally changed my life. I mean, there's a few moments if you're lucky that you can be changed like that, and I just thought that was the most glorious sound by a human ever. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right. I think my first exposure was in high school, which, you know, I just was forever changed because he's definitely a heavenly voice or something that's out of this world, absolutely. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you guys sing in these different modes, what is it about - opera has - it's a sort of cultural double-edged sword. It can come to symbolize exclusion… Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Yes. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …keeping people out. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What is it that you find in opera - and, Victor, I'll go to you - that makes you think that it can inclusive as well? Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Well, I mean, the key is to keep opera relevant in today's society. We need new audiences. We need the younger people and you have directors like Baz Luhrmann, Francesca Zambello, Three Mo' Tenors. We're right now, we're off Broadway doing at the Little Schubert. What we're trying to do is bring people - bring the younger audiences to opera where it's not so intimidating and we - that's where we add a little twist to it. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): And that's what they can relate to and be culturalized(ph) also. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Culturalized? Culturalized? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I love that. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): New word. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): I just made it up. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Culturalize? Love it. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. It's like you sprinkle a little culture fertilizer and it's - you're culturalize. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): That's why I made up that word. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): So I'm sticking to that. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So James, what was one of the most unusual reactions you ever got from someone who maybe said something like, you know, I hate opera but you guys are great? Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): What was one of the most? Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): The children. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): It had to be the children. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): The children, yeah. I think we've done some things like at Lehman College before for, like, kindergarteners to eighth grade, and it's been amazing - the response. We even did some things at - the Albemarle(ph) School for, like, children that are… Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): No, Dance Theater of Harlem, sorry. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Dance Theater of Harlem. I'm Sorry. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): They seemed to be more attentive to the opera, weren't they? Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Yeah. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Very attentive. I never - what, it's Italian, and what were you saying and what was going - I mean, it was very - it was cool and all they need is exposure. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): That's all it is. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): I think they'd be very, you know, interested in after that so… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you guys are playing off Broadway. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Yes. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What else do you have coming up? Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Oh, right now, that's it, the off-Broadway run at the Little Schubert on 42nd, and, hopefully, that run will extend until about January 27th, but we're looking forward to possible tours in the future as well. But right now, we're doing our sole concentration at the Little Schubert on 42nd. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That sounds great. Well, of course, we have to ask you to sing us a couple of bars in honor of Pavarotti. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Sure. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): That's right. Yeah. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Not a problem. Are you ready? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mm-hmm. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): We're doing the short one. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ready. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: THREE MO' TENORS (Singing Group): (Singing) (Italian spoken) FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bravo. Bravo. Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Grazie. Grazie. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Duane, Victor, James, thank you so much. Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): You're welcome. Thank you. Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Thank you. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We were speaking with Duane Moody, Victor Robertson and James Berger of the eclectic musical trio, Three Mo Tenors. They joined us from our New York studios.

The unconventional opera legend Luciano Pavarotti paved the way for many performers, including the black singing trio Three Mo' Tenors. Three of the group's members — Duane Moody, James Berger and Victor Robertson — talk with Farai Chideya.

Die unkonventionelle Opernlegende Luciano Pavarotti ebnete vielen Interpreten den Weg, darunter auch dem schwarzen Gesangstrio Three Mo' Tenors. Drei Mitglieder der Gruppe – Duane Moody, James Berger und Victor Robertson – sprechen mit Farai Chideya.

不落俗套的戏曲传奇鲁契亚诺·帕瓦罗蒂为许多表演者做出了榜样，这些表演者包括黑人歌唱三重奏的三大男高音。该组织的三名成员——杜安·穆迪、詹姆斯·伯杰和维克多·罗伯逊——与法莱·奇德亚进行了交谈。

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand. ALEX CHADWICK, host: I'm Alex Chadwick. We're going to stay foreign a while longer. NPR diplomatic correspondent Mike Shuster is back with us. Mike, hi. MIKE SHUSTER: Hi, Alex. ALEX CHADWICK, host: We've asked you to look at these U.S.-Iran war talks that we've been hearing again. We'll get there in a moment. First, we've just heard a lot about Iraq and Muqtada al-Sadr. When he is dodging the U.S. in Iraq he is often in Iran. How close is he with the Iranians? Is he their guy? MIKE SHUSTER: I'm afraid that that's not a question that's easy to answer. It's probably not true that he is their guy in the sense that he and his movement is the sole political and military force that Iran supports in Iraq. We know that's not true because Iran formally supports the government in Baghdad of Nouri al-Maliki, his party, the Dawa Party, his allies in the government and the Hakim family that lead the other key Shiite group. The Hakim family has their own militia, the Badr militia that's actually a part of the defense ministry. So, you can't say that Iran solely supports Muqtada al-Sadr. But Iran's - it's fairly clear after five years of war in Iraq supports different Shiite groups to different degrees depending upon the level of violence, and mayhem, and chaos in Iraq. It's probably also true that different elements of the Iranian government and military support to a different degree different elements of the political and military scene, Shiite scene, in Iraq as well. ALEX CHADWICK, host: OK, this is obviously a big issue with the U.S. government. Here's another one. Iran last week announced that it has added thousands of these centrifuges, which will help it process uranium. That produced a couple of political columns over the weekend saying we have to take the Iranian nuclear threat more seriously, maybe protect Israel more aggressively, and there's suddenly more talk about we're going to go to war with Iran or we should? What is the level of that thinking? MIKE SHUSTER: Well, actually I think that was also stimulated by the Petraeus and Crocker testimony in Washington last week in which they also focused on Iran and Iran's meddling in Iraq as a primary concern of the U.S. military in Iraq. What the Iranian leaders actually said is that they intend to build 6,000 more advanced centrifuges. This will obviously take some time. But yes, it's clear that the United States and the Bush administration and its allies in Europe are greatly concerned about Iran's unwillingness to compromise on this issue of uranium enrichment on their territory. On the other hand, there have been some signals from Iran in recent days that they might be open to renegotiate this or negotiate again or might be willing to put some new proposals on the table. And the United States and the Europeans have recognized that that in fact may be coming. There's always talk when the Iranians talk about their nuclear program. There's always talk of military action, but there are other things going on as well. ALEX CHADWICK, host: If there is a needle on a gauge, the Bush administration will attack Iran, it will not. Has that needle moved in the last week? MIKE SHUSTER: If it has it has moved by a little bit, not by much, and it's pretty much down below 50/50 I'd say for some time. ALEX CHADWICK, host: NPR diplomatic correspondent Mike Shuster on Iran. Thank you, Mike. MIKE SHUSTER: Thank you, Alex.

Diplomatic correspondent Mike Shuster breaks down the latest developments in Iran's relationship with the U.S.

Der diplomatische Korrespondent Mike Shuster erläutert die neuesten Entwicklungen in den Beziehungen des Iran zu den USA

外事记者迈克·舒斯特详细报道了伊朗与美国关系的最新发展。

LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: Saudi Arabia is on the brink of change. The kingdom recently presented its ambitious plan for the future called Saudi Vision 2030, which would, most notably, reduce the country's dependence on their most lucrative export, oil. This comes at a time when Saudi Arabia's oil prices are at their lowest in over a decade. The architect of this grand vision is Mohammed bin Salman, the deputy crown prince and 30-year-old son of King Salman. For more on how he plans to shake up Saudi Arabia, we're joined by Thomas Lippman. He is an expert on Saudi Arabia at the Middle East Institute in Washington. Welcome. THOMAS LIPPMAN: Thank you. It's nice to be here. LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: First, could you tell us a little about the deputy crown prince? He seems to have amassed a significant amount of power in a relatively short time. THOMAS LIPPMAN: A little over a year ago, this young man came out of nowhere, as far as anybody outside Saudi Arabia knew. The position he's in essentially was created for him, and a lot of people assumed that it was some kind of political or dynastic mistake by his father. Now, he has established himself as a young man who's quite creative. People who have met him and had long conversations with him, including President Obama, have come away impressed with his energy and his ability. LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: So assuming this vision for 2030 is mostly his work, how does Saudi Arabia plan to reduce its dependence on oil? THOMAS LIPPMAN: Linda, I - my initial reaction to this was one of complete skepticism. But I have heard from people who say that two things have happened. One is that the king has made clear that this young man has the power and the mandate, and he can cross traditional lines of authority between cabinet ministries to make things happen. The other is that the very drop in oil prices that you mentioned seems to have finally galvanized their leadership to do some of the things that everyone has known for some time are necessary. LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: Well, now what about this business of trying to change the lives of Saudi Arabians? Do we think that there is something going on there, or something that we can expect? THOMAS LIPPMAN: Well, the most important dynamic and visible change that is taking place and will accelerate in Saudi Arabia is the status of women and the expansion of women in the workforce. The Saudi government has recognized for several years now that even when oil price is high, the government can't afford to go on, year after year, educating all the women of Saudi Arabia from kindergarten through university and not recoup any productive output. THOMAS LIPPMAN: And it's partly driven not because some prince had a vision in the middle of the night. It's being driven by economic reality. But habits of thought and social practice are deeply ingrained in this society and the Al Saud, the monarch and the princes, are not interested in rocking their own boat. They need to go in some different directions, but they need to do it, at least in their view, in a way that will remain politically manageable. LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: Thomas Lippman is an expert on Saudi Arabia at the Middle East Institute. Thank you very much for coming in. THOMAS LIPPMAN: My pleasure.

Saudi Arabia recently presented a vision for the future of the kingdom. NPR's Linda Wertheimer speaks with Thomas Lippman of the Middle East Institute about the most ambitious part of the plan.

Saudi-Arabien hat kürzlich eine Vision für die Zukunft des Königreichs vorgelegt. Linda Wertheimer von NPR spricht mit Thomas Lippman vom Middle East Institute über den ehrgeizigsten Teil des Plans.

沙特阿拉伯最近提出了王国未来的愿景。美国国家公共电台记者琳达·韦特海默与中东研究所的托马斯·利普曼谈论了该计划中最雄心勃勃的部分。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: If you go online, you'll find news reports, blogs, and a comic series about Hurricane Katrina just for the Web. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's called "A.D.: News Orleans After The Deluge", and it illustrates the struggle to survive in the Big Easy during and after the flood. Brooklyn-based artist Josh Neufeld created "A.D." It appears on the Web site, smithmag.net. And he's created his own comic and also works with Harvey Pekar, the legendary comic creator who inspired the film "American Splendor." FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In his new project, he tells the story of six real people in New Orleans, and two of the characters - if you can call them that - are Denise and Leo. Denise is a hurricane outreach organizer for a battered women's program in Baton Rouge, and Leo is editor and publisher of antigravitymagazine.com, a Web magazine about New Orleans' music and culture. We've got Denise, Leo and Josh. Welcome. DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Hi. Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Hi, there. LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Hey. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Josh, let me start with you. What inspired you to create this series? Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, it was when I - it all started when I was a volunteer for the Red Cross and I went down to Biloxi, Mississippi shortly after the hurricane. I blogged about my experiences down there and ended up compiling those blogs into a book - not a comic book, but just a record of my blogs and the comments that I received. And because I've had a history of doing comics on nonfiction topics, I got a lot of encouragement from people to do a comic about my experiences. Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): However, I was hesitant to do a comic about myself because I just didn't feel like that was appropriate for the subject matter, being that I was just a volunteer and not really, you know, someone who's directly affected by the hurricane. So… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So let me ask you how you found Leo, Denise and the other folks that you profiled. Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, when I finally did hit on the idea - thanks to Barry Smith, the editor of SMITH, where the comic is running - of doing the comic about real people who lived in New Orleans, we basically went on a three or four-month intensive search to find people that we thought would be great characters, subjects for the comic. And that's how we came across Leo and Denise. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Leo, you are one of these real-life characters. What do you think about being portrayed and perhaps exposed in this way? LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Oh, I love it, you know? I've made no secret when Josh approached me about being a character in the strip that it was my lifelong dream to be a comic book character. I've, you know, grew up reading comics. That's how I learned to read, and I've collected them very, very avidly since I was about 12 years old. So you know, that - my passion for that could actually be, you know, kind of brought to life in that way. It was, you know, something very appealing to me. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Denise, what about you? Do you feel like this is really your life? And if so, if not, why? DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Oh, I believe it's a combination of things. It's my life and Josh's interpretation of it. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And how do you feel about it? DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Well, it has allure. It has (unintelligible). At first, I didn't want to be a comic book character. But I thought it was an opportunity to get some truth out about Katrina because there were so many lies. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And when you think about what's gotten out, do you ever - do you guys ever discuss and say, well, you know what, this is not the way that I would like this portrayed? And how do you negotiate with Josh about what appears? DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Well, Josh and I talked on the front end, and I was kind of critical about the way my character could possibly be perceived. It seemed to me that my character will fall easily into stereotype and I was upset about it. But what I liked was that Josh didn't have a knee-jerk reaction to my criticism. And instead of becoming defensive, he listened to my concerns and he allowed me greater involvement in the process. So right now, I'm really pleased with how things are going. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Josh, how do you deal with people who, obviously, you have to have a relationship to them, saying, you know what, that's just not right, especially if you've already gone to press? I'm going to use that word, virtually, because it is the Internet. Do you say, oh, gosh, I made a booboo? Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, I don't know if it's reached that point. I think Denise, after she saw her representation in the first chapter, where I sort of introduced the character, she, you know, very rightfully had concern about being portrayed in sort of the stereotypical way of an African-American woman. And, you know, it was definitely a combination of me listening to her concerns and thinking about that. And then also we agreed that for future episodes, it just works better all around, I would show her the script before I - you know, I would show her any script that had her scenes in it, and she could sort of (unintelligible) it and help me, you know, correct details and help with language and all sorts of things that can only make the strip better. So I was really happy to have that kind of exchange. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Leo, you're someone who's a big fan of comics. You said that this was your dream. LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Mm-hmm. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Why do you think a form like this can tell a story as serious as Katrina, when a lot of people say, you know, comics are for kids or comics are for entertainment? LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Well, I think part of the reason why Josh chose me to be one of the characters is because of my connection with comic books in general and just my long-term love for the medium. You know, quite simply, when you see my apartment, my old apartment in the comic strip, it's so full of comics and so full of, you know, different paraphernalia and different belongings that I had that, you know, you just see that as, like, such a love for me that it actually tosses the reader into it because, you know, like, well, if this person loves these things so much and I'm reading a comic strip about them, you know, why not take it seriously? It's obviously something that people do in real life. So you see those things very, very vividly. Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): If I can just jump in on there too. I mean, there is a long tradition in graphic novels and comic books of tackling, you know, very serious subjects from Art Spiegelman's "Maus" to Marjan Satrapi's "Persepolis" to Joe Sacco doing comics about the war in Yugoslavia and conflicts in Israel and Palestine. Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): So you know, for me, it's just the - it's just continuing that tradition and helping to hopefully educate Americans that comics are as valid a medium for telling these sorts of stories as any other one. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Denise, I'm sure that not your whole life will get to be told because this is going to go on for a few more episodes. But what are you doing now in terms of your professional life? And also how are you feeling, personally? DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): I'm still struggling with a lot of Katrina-related issues and post-traumatic syndrome and anxiety and stuff. But I worked with battered women who are also survivors of Katrina. So they've gotten a double whammy. And it helps to get outside of your own myopic view of your problems. And I really like the work that I'm doing now. We're educating women about domestic violence and even on the impacts of Katrina and trying to facilitate them, getting their needs met while creating citizen activists who will help each other, particularly in the isolated areas like the trailer parks. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And, you know, Leo, do you feel like this is helping you process in any way, you know, being able to look at what's happened to you on the page? Does it help you emotionally? LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Yeah. In a lot of ways, it does. I know - when the comic strip first started, and particularly, I think it's chapter three, which portrays my then girlfriend and I leaving the house, you know, right before Katrina, you know, it actually brought a lot of things back for me. Like, I really remembered, like, those last moments before we left and kind of how tense they were. And in some ways, I got to know if it helps me get over it, but it does help me remember it, and that puts things now into perspective. You know, just as far as making sure that I do appreciate everything that I have in my life now and how easily that can all be taken away. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Josh, just finally, what are you up to next with the series? Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, we're - I'm just finishing chapter six now, which is going to be debuting on Sunday on smithmag.net, and that's going to be halfway through the whole thing. And we've got six more chapters to go after that, where we're going to learn about what happened to the characters after the hurricane, and sort of take you up to the present day. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, it sounds like you got a lot on your plate. And Josh, Denise and Leo, thank you so much for coming on. DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Thank you. Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Thank you, Farai. LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Thanks. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Josh Neufeld is the writer and illustrator of "A.D.: News Orleans After The Deluge." The Web comic can be viewed at smithmag.net. And Denise and Leo are both real people having their Katrina experiences scripted into the comic. Leo spoke with us from WWNO in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Brooklyn-based artist Josh Neufeld talks about his first Web comic series, A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge, which chronicles the lives of six real-life survivors of Hurricane Katrina. Two characters whose lives are depicted in the series, "Denise" and "Leo," talk about their portrayals.

Der in Brooklyn lebende Künstler Josh Neufeld spricht über seine erste Web-Comic-Serie AD: News Orleans After The Deluge, die das Leben von sechs Überlebenden des Hurrikans Katrina im wirklichen Leben aufzeichnet. Zwei Charaktere, deren Leben in der Serie dargestellt wird, \"Denise\" und \"Leo\", sprechen über ihre Darstellungen.

布鲁克林的艺术家乔什·纽菲尔德谈论他的第一部网络漫画系列， 《A-D：洪水之后的新奥尔良》，这部电影记录了卡特里娜飓风的六位幸存者的真实生活。该系列中被描绘的两个角色“丹妮丝”和“利奥”讲述他们的演绎。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, from the business of publishing to the art of black literature. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All this month, Farah Jasmine Griffin has been sharing her list of the most influential black American writers ever. Griffin is a professor of English and Comparative Literature, and African-American Studies at Columbia University. Her first two choices were 19th century greats Phillis Wheatley and Frederick Douglas. Today, she points us to Harlem Renaissance legend, Zora Neale Hurston. Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): I chose Hurston for a number of reasons. One, simply the quality and variety of her work as a novelist, short story writer, anthropologist, folklorist, playwright. I don't know of any writer who is as accomplished in as many genres and forms as Hurston is. But I also chose her because of her influence on a generation of writers, especially African-American women writers, who had emerge in the 1970s, and who, themselves, would change the landscape of American literature. Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): Hurston was fairly well known as a younger writer, especially as a participant of the Harlem Renaissance. She was known for her short stories, but as the fashion in literature begin to change, and we get the emergence of young male writers like Richard Wright, she sort of falls, I guess, out of fashion. And I think both sexism and racism, and the kind of American culture industry sort of buried her beneath the emergence of male writers, black and white. Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): In the '70s, after the Black Power movement and the feminist movement, young black women writers looking for four mothers, sort of rediscover Hurston and bring her back to a wider audience. Hurston is dealing with the interpersonal aspects of black life, the aspects of black life that happened beyond the gaze of white people. And, in so doing, I think she testifies to black people's humanity. Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): I think that the most well-known line is probably the black woman who's the mule of the world, but in "Their Eyes Were Watching God", there's so many eloquent and beautiful statements that go beyond that. And I think the descriptions of the love shared between Tea Cake and Janie that are passionate and sensual and egalitarian are among the most beautiful lines in the book. The closing lines of "Their Eyes Were Watching God" - my favorite lines of the book: Then Tea Cake came prancing around her, where she was, and the song of the sigh flew out of the window and lit in the top of the pine trees. Tea Cake, with the sun for a shawl, of course he wasn't dead. He could never be dead until she herself had finished feeling and thinking. The kiss of his memory made pictures of love and light against the wall. Here was peace. She pulled in her horizon like a great fishnet, pulled it from around the waist of the world and draped it over her shoulder. So much of life in its meshes. She called in her soul to come and see. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was Farah Jasmine Griffin on Zora Neale Hurston, one of my personal favorites, and one of her six picks as the most influential black writers ever. Griffin is professor of English and Comparative Literature and African-American Studies at Columbia University. You can find more of her choices and weigh in with your own at our blog: nprnewsandviews.org.

Farah Jasmine Griffin — a professor of English and African-American studies at Columbia University — brings us the third installment in her series, honoring the six most influential African-American writers. Today, she pays tribute to Zora Neale Hurston.

Farah Jasmine Griffin - Professorin für Englisch und afroamerikanische Studien an der Columbia University - präsentiert uns den dritten Teil ihrer Serie zu Ehren der sechs einflussreichsten afroamerikanischen Schriftsteller. Heute würdigt sie Zora Neale Hurston.

法拉赫·贾斯敏·格里芬——哥伦比亚大学的英国人和非裔美国人研究教授。她为我们带来了她的系列作品的第三部，致敬了六位最有影响力的非裔美籍作家。今天，她向佐拉·尼尔·赫斯顿致敬。

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: How do Congress and the president find their way out of a partial government shutdown? NOEL KING, HOST: If you're just catching up after a few days off, the news of the shutdown is the same as when you left. Today is a work day for many people but not for hundreds of thousands of federal employees. President Trump demanded funding for a border wall. He wants it attached to an otherwise routine spending bill. NOEL KING, HOST: In the last days of the fully Republican Congress, the House and Senate passed different measures. Now President Trump has been talking with some Republicans, but it's not clear what he's willing to offer Democrats who are about to take over the House. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Scott Horsley covers the White House and has been covering this story of course. Good morning, Scott. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good morning, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Anybody have any ideas how to get out of this? SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: (Laughter) They're looking around. You know, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina had lunch with the president yesterday and floated this idea of perhaps swapping the billions of dollars in wall funding that the president wants for a reprieve for the so-called DREAMers - that is, young people who were brought to the country as children and were living in the country illegally - and others who've been living here on a temporary status. Worth noting, though, you know, the president had a deal like that earlier in the year that would have included a lot more wall funding. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Yeah. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: And it was blown up by some of the hard-liners within the White House. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And so it was the president who turned down that deal before and the president who would need to sign on this time. Is there any indication the Democrats would still take that deal, Scott? SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Democrats seem to be holding a firm line. They're saying, we're not interested in funding your wall. And of course their leverage will only increase later this week. Up until now, Democrats have really only had veto power to block legislation in the Senate. But come Thursday, they will control the House. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Scott, I just want to make sure I understand the stakes here as hundreds of thousands of federal workers remain off the job and some agencies remain partially closed. The president originally demanded a wall across the entire border, has more recently said it's OK to have a wall across most of the border. And even more recently, he's changed his images of the wall to make it a fence. So he wants a fence over lots of the border. And there's already fence over lots of the border. Are we - is this debate actually getting smaller and smaller to the point where it's not really about very much? SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: It's a very symbolic debate and really has been all along. But the president has kind of toggled between messages. On the one hand, he says we must have a wall to protect border security. In other settings, though, he'll say the wall is largely built. So he's been very inconsistent in his message. And he's been mocked by Democrats for that changing description of the wall. I think the House speaker in waiting, Nancy Pelosi, joked that before long he's going to have a beaded curtain. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: We're - (laughter) a beaded curtain. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: And, you know, you're right, Steve, about the impact of the shutdown. It has been somewhat muted up until now during the holidays except for those 800,000 federal workers who are either furloughed or working without pay. But over time, you know, the effects will begin to pile up. Later this week, we're going to see the Smithsonian museum shut down along with the National Zoo. The EPA halted operations over the weekend. So the effects will be mounting. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: I talked to a fellow with a nonprofit group that works at Joshua Tree National Park out in California. You know, right now they have volunteers stocking the bathrooms with toilet paper. But over time, he said, the pit toilets are going to fill up; the dumpsters are going to fill up. And that's kind of a metaphor for what's happening throughout the government. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Perfect ending - Scott, we'll just leave you right there. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That is NPR's Scott Horsley. Happy New Year to you. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Happy New Year. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The Department of Homeland Security wants more stringent medical screenings of minors detained at the border. NOEL KING, HOST: Right, this is happening after two migrant children died while in U.S. custody. But more of these screenings mean more resources, and government agencies are already overwhelmed. The U.S. government reportedly released more than 1,600 migrants last week. These are people arrested at the border who can't be detained. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Some of them end up in shelters. And Monica Ortiz Uribe spent time with a pediatrician who treats migrants at one shelter. She's on the line. Good morning. MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Hi, good morning. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Just to understand who we're talking about here, these are people who were effectively arrested by Border Patrol or are taken into custody by ICE and then released by ICE. Is that right? MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Yeah, that's correct. So, you know, the policy - the so-called catch and release policy applies mostly to Central Americans who can't automatically be turned around and deported the way Mexican nationals can be. So when ICE apprehends a Central American migrant, they can either put them in a detention center or release them with a future date. And because the courts are so backlogged, the immigration courts, they - these migrants can often wait for months or years in the U.S. before their case is decided. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, which is the very thing that President Trump says he dislikes because he sees it as an incentive for people to cross the border illegally. They effectively get here even if they've got a court date looming over their heads. But... MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Correct. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: ...The administration is releasing people because they can't detain all of them. Are aid organizations in El Paso able to absorb all the families that are coming now? MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Well, that's the million-dollar question. So far they have been. Donations have kept up, and they've been able to find enough space so that migrants can spend one or two nights here in El Paso before continuing on to meet relatives in other parts of the U.S. But, yeah, the director of the local shelter network is named Ruben Garcia. And he says their goal is to find enough beds for 3,000 people per week in case the numbers increase. RUBEN GARCIA: It's going to take activating more sites. It's going to mean finding more churches or organizations that are willing to receive refugees. MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: So the key word here is willing. Annunciation House runs on the public's goodwill, and that's online financial donations and an army of volunteers. If the number of migrant families starts to exceed their capacity, Garcia says they may have to turn to the city of El Paso for help, asking it to open up more shelters and provide the staff to run them. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Although we heard there the appeal not for governments to step up but for private citizens. Who is stepping forward? MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Yeah, the variety is extraordinary. These are low-income folks who rely on a food pantry for meals. They've volunteered to cook for the migrants. People have flown in from as far away as Maine to help out for a week or two. Then there's the college students who are on winter break. People go to Costco and fill up a cart with diapers and jackets to take to the shelters. MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: I'm also told that the wife of Stanford's head football coach in town for today's annual Sun Bowl game brought the migrant families Popeye's chicken for lunch yesterday. One volunteer told me it's like a big Mexican family. When more people show up for Christmas, you simply find the extra room. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, goodness, OK, so a kind of festive scene even though it's in some ways dark because people don't know what their future is going to be. MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Yeah, it's bringing a lot of people out to help, inspiring their, yeah, sense to help. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Monica, Happy New Year. MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Thank you. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's reporter Monica Ortiz Uribe in El Paso, Texas. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: We go now to the Democratic Republic of Congo, where a presidential election has been called into question. NOEL KING, HOST: That's right. After more than two years of delays, Congolese went to the polls on Sunday to elect a new president. Now the votes are being counted, and opposition candidates are alleging widespread irregularities. The outgoing president, Joseph Kabila, says the problems were minor, and he's praised the Congolese people for voting in peace and dignity. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton is in the capital, Kinshasa, covered the vote, is monitoring developments. Hey there, Ofeibea. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Greetings. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: What's happening? OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Oh, my goodness, let me just remind you, Steve, why these elections are so important and so key and why the stakes are so high, because of course President Joseph Kabila, who has been in power for almost 18 years, says he's stepping down. And the election has been delayed for two years, since December 2016, prompting the opposition to charge that Kabila was trying to remain in power and stay past his mandate. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: And, you know, Congo's presidential election should enable this vast country, which is rich but poor, to finally have a peaceful and democratic transfer of power since independence from Belgium in 1960. So that's why these elections are so important and why there's so much tension. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, absolutely, because if you don't have a transfer of power, you by definition don't really have a - don't really have a democracy. You certainly don't have an open election system. So why is the opposition saying there was a problem with this election? OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: They say right from the start - and one of them, Felix Tshisekedi, has deplored what he called disorder. Now, he says the Congolese government has deliberately manipulated election day chaos because it wants to trigger a court challenge to allow Joseph Kabila, who has effectively been this caretaker president for two years, to stay on. And analysts say they're only - you know, the only thing they can do then is go to court. But any sort of court challenge would be a dead end for the opposition. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: You have Martin Fayulu, another opposition candidate, who read out a long list of supposed irregularities, he said, including jammed voting machines, late opening of polling stations, missing voters' registers. And he says, you know, opposition coalition observers who are meant to be in the polling stations were kicked out when it came to the time to count ballots, so there a stream of fury from the opposition about all that's going on. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Were there independent monitors of this election, Ofeibea? And if so, what are they saying? OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Let me tell you not from The Carter Center in Atlanta and not from the European Union but, yes, lots and lots of local ones, 20,000. But even these election observers reported multiple difficulties in voting. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: The influential Catholic Church, which has mediated in peace talks between the government and the opposition, voted at least 1,500 problems, a third of them with these controversial new voting machines which were apparently sourced in South Korea and being used for the first time. Technology flummoxed not only the machines, which jammed and didn't work, but also lots of voters who are used to manual ballots, so lots and lots of problems. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: The question is, though, will the vote be credible? Will the results be credible? Will the Congolese who were determined to vote in their millions finally choose the president they feel should be the president and not who anyone else feels should be the president? That is the key... STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And... OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: ...After election. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And we will be listening for your reporting. Ofeibea, thanks so much. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Always a pleasure. Thanks, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And Happy New Year to you, Ofeibea Quist-Arcton.

The government shutdown enters its 10th day. Volunteers in El Paso, Texas, staff pop-up medical clinics to screen migrant children at the border. Ballots are counted in Congo's presidential election.

Der Regierungsstillstand geht in den 10. Tag. Freiwillige Helfer in El Paso, Texas, betreuen Pop-up-Kliniken, um Migrantenkinder an der Grenze zu untersuchen. Bei den Präsidentschaftswahlen im Kongo werden die Stimmzettel ausgezählt.

政府关闭边境进入第10天。得克萨斯州埃尔帕索的志愿者工作人员在边境的临时医疗诊所为移民儿童做检查。刚果总统选举计票。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In this day and age, it's hard to imagine anyone can make it through the day without being able to read. From filling out a job application or reading a notice from your landlord to navigating road signs in an unfamiliar city, illiteracy can be crippling. Yet in 2007, there are still some parts of the U.S. where half of the adult population is functionally illiterate. That's right, half. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Continuing our series on The Black Literary Imagination, we take a look at folks who have never picked up a good book because they can't read the cover. Byron Pitts is a correspondent for CBS News, but we didn't ask him to file a report for us. He's with us because before Pitts became a journalist, he was functionally illiterate. Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): No one noticed that I couldn't read. In fact, the issue became - I finally got tested when I was having a hard time with math. So the assumption was I couldn't do math. And when we took this test, it was discovered I couldn't read the directions. It wasn't math, I couldn't read. Then people started to get involved. But, you know, it's a story you hear countless times when you talk to kids who grow up in urban America, in crowded schools. Teachers are overwhelmed, parents are overwhelmed and kids fall through the cracks. So every time I do a story about an at risk child that does something they shouldn't do, I always say to myself they're before the grace of God. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What did you do to hide the fact of what you were struggling with from your teachers, from your mother, folks like that? Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): Well, in many ways, it was easy to hide in plain sight. I've always had the ability to memorize things pretty well. So when I was at home, it was always myself, my brother and sister and doing our homework at the kitchen table. My mother supervising as she cooked dinner and saw the clothes and did four other jobs. And so, when I would have an assignment, I would harass my brother and sister to help me with it. And then finally, out of frustration, they would say, well, this is what it says and they would kind of read it out loud, and I pretend that I was dumb and - I mean, they only thought I was, you know, I was a spoiled brat, geek so they were annoyed to do that to begin with. And then they would say it over and over again and finally, I would memorize -let's say if the assignment the next day was to read, we're going to read a chapter out loud. I would find a paragraph that I felt comfortable reading that my brother and sister and mom would read back to me. I'd memorized that graph(ph). FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It seems to me that that must have been an awful lot of work. Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): Yeah. And what happened with me - I remember, you know, my mother who was, you know, the classic southern woman, I've only seen my mother cry twice in my life. The first time, when it came on the radio that Martin Luther King, Jr. had been assassinated. And the second time was when the therapist told my mother - I've never forgotten his words - I'm sorry Mrs. Pitts, your son is functionally illiterate. I wasn't sure what the words meant but I know what my mother's tears meant and that it broke her heart. That was my lowest moment in my inability to read, to know that I had brought not just pain but I brought shame to my mother. Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): And I mean, it was never made clear what my issue was. I mean, there was the argument that because, you know, I was attending an overcrowded school that I missed out some of the basics. There's then some indication later in life that I might be dyslexic. I remember one therapist suggested early on to my mother that perhaps I was mentally retarded. And so I would give the bulk of the credits to my mother who wouldn't accept no and kept pushing. And, you know, my faith always told me as a child that, you know, as the old saying goes, God didn't make no junk. And so I knew that there was - even when I was struggling, I knew that there was a value to my life. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: When you first read a book all the way through, what was that like for you emotionally? Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): Even before I read my first book, I remember the first thing I ever read out loud that wasn't memorized. I brought home a note from school from a teacher. And historically for me, that the drill was always the teacher will write a note, I'd put it at my bag, I'd bring it home, I'd hand it to my mother and she'd read it. And I would sort of go by her facial expression if it was a good note or bad note. But I remember and she finally tells the story to this day that when I brought that note home twelve and a half, twelve and three-quarters years old. I brought the note home and said, mom, I got a note from the school. Let me read it to you. And she started crying even before I started reading it. And I remember the note says, Mrs. Pitts, good news, Byron is doing better. And I mean, it gives me chills to this day. And I remember the first thing my mother said, I've read her the note, she wiped her eyes and she said glory, hallelujah. Glory, hallelujah. That was like being set free for me. And the first book I read from cover to cover was "The Old Man and the Sea." FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Which most people don't get to until college. Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): Right, right. And it came alive for me. And one of the primary reasons I'm a journalist today is that I love words. I mean, for me - for many people, reading is like second nature. It's like tying your shoes. But for me, words and reading are like breathing. And so every day, I get to breathe. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You certainly have influenced a lot of people with your words being a journalist of such high caliber, how did you fight your way - we already have heard how you fought your way through illiteracy to literacy. How did you fight your way from being someone who didn't have an easy time with reading to the place that you are in your profession now? Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): I was also raised to believe that to those whom much is given, much is required; that there are no stumbling blocks in life just stepping stone. And certainly, throughout my career, there've always been people who've told me I couldn't. Whether that was in the beginning of my career or quite frankly at this stage of my career, there are still people who say you're not ready for that yet, you can't do that yet. I mean, I had that experience a number of years ago at CBS News that I had a - God bless him - a manager who told me I wasn't good enough to be on his show, and that it was his plan to keep me off of his show because I wasn't good enough. And he said I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings. And I looked him in the eye and said as politely as I could, I said never at once when I'm at home alone on my knees in the dark do I call your name that I am respectful of you and your position, but you don't control my destiny. I may not be the smartest, I may not be the most traveled but I am - I have certainty that I am as mentally tough as anyone in the room because my journey made me mentally tough. Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): So whenever I talk to kids who come from - who have learning issues, who come from tough environments, I say, you know, embrace the gift that you are mentally tough, that you have gotten to this point in your life in part because you're mentally tough. And you can take that mental toughness and translate it into anything to be anybody that you want to be. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, on that note, a perfect note, Byron, thank you. Mr. BYRON PITTS (Correspondent, CBS): My pleasure. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Byron Pitts is a correspondent for CBS News.

CBS correspondent Byron Pitts — now an award-winning journalist — did not start learning to read until he was 12 years old. Our black literary imagination series resumes with a discussion of blacks and illiteracy.

Der CBS-Korrespondent Byron Pitts – heute ein preisgekrönter Journalist – begann erst mit 12 Jahren, lesen zu lernen. Unsere Serie über die literarische Fantasie der Schwarzen wird mit einer Diskussion über Schwarze und Analphabetismus fortgesetzt.

哥伦比亚广播公司记者拜伦·皮茨直到12岁才开始学习阅读，但他现在是一名获奖记者。我们的黑人文学想象系列将继续讨论黑人和文盲问题。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And we close the show today with a pair of remembrances. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: First, Dr. Asa Hilliard, a professor of urban education at Georgia State University. He was in Egypt, guiding students on foreign exchange trip when he died. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hilliard was a founding member of the National Black Child Development Institute, and he worked tirelessly to level the playing field for black students. He encouraged colleges and universities to revise standardized admission tests or stop using them altogether because of cultural bias. And he encouraged all students, black or white, to broaden their horizons and learn more about African cultures. When he died, Hilliard was doing just that, leading a student tour through Egypt. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: A spokesperson for Georgia State University says, though an official autopsy has not been done, Hilliard may have died of malaria. He was 73-years-old.

We remember Professor Asa Hilliard, a tireless advocate for culturally sensitive college admissions testing and teacher training.

Wir erinnern uns an Professor Asa Hilliard, einen unermüdlichen Verfechter kultursensibler Zulassungstests für Hochschulen und Lehrerausbildung.

我们还记得阿萨·希利亚德教授，他不知疲倦地倡导对文化敏感的大学入学考试和教师培训。

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: One of the nation's largest newspaper companies, Gannett, is facing a hostile takeover bid from a company known for acquiring and then gutting newsrooms. Gannett owns USA Today and about a hundred other papers across the country. Digital First Media owns more than 50 papers, including The Denver Post and The Boston Herald. It is offering nearly 1.4 billion to buy Gannett. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Well, the deal is raising concerns. And to find out what those concerns are, let's bring in NPR media correspondent David Folkenflik. Hey, David. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Hey, Mary Louise. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So we have here one big newspaper group trying to take over an even bigger newspaper group. A lot of people are really not so happy about this. Why? DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Well, particularly journalists and perhaps those who are served by the newspapers that Digital First already owns. Digital First, it's worth pointing out, is actually controlled and majority-owned by a hedge fund in New York called Alden Global Capital. And its plan, when it takes over companies that are newspaper companies and newspaper properties, is generally to cut it back. Take The Denver Post, which is where Digital First's notional headquarters is. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Right. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: That's a company that is about as third as large as it was in 2012. Their executives came to them and said, look, we can move you out of the historic old headquarters in Denver to - after a round of layoffs to the suburbs and the printing plant. They'll forestall future layoffs. The unions and employees agreed to that because they said, let's keep the staff as best we can. And then a few short months later, another third of their staff was let go. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: So this is - has - a company that has a tradition of cutting and cutting and then cutting some more, maintaining significant profit margins to apparently help support investments in other places. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Right. I mean, there seems to be some evidence to support the argument that this is a company that acquires and then guts newsrooms. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Strong evidence. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Yeah. A spokesman for Digital First, to give - to give them their say, has put out a statement. They told The Wall Street Journal, we believe these publications need to survive, but they need to have their costs come into line with their revenues. Costs in line with revenues seems hard to argue with. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: It seems certainly unobjectionable. In no place does there seem to be any notion of growth or of solving, you know, their real problems affecting the newspaper industry and that Gannett itself has been suffering along with many others. There's no sense that this is a question of, we have a strategy to persevere and to survive. It's a question of, how do we cut and cut and cut? DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: And let's be clear. Gannett is a company that's been famous within the newspaper industry for cutting. It's just that Digital First does so to a much greater degree. They've been - they have condemned Gannett's leadership for making certain kinds of digital investments, some of which have not panned out. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: And they say, we think we can do this better by just paring back the expectations of readers and of staffs - need to be not so significantly high. And at the same time, we think we can eke out enough in print and digital subscriptions to make this valuable as an investment. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: All right. I mean, the historical irony will not - will not escape a lot of people listening that Gannett was once known as the big guy that gobbled up smaller local papers and cut staff. How is Gannett to responding to this offer? DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Gannett says it will look at it. Gannett has been, you know - is not in the position... MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Do they have much choice? DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: I think they have to do it. They're being offered a premium of, you know, nearly a quarter over what they were going for on the market just a few short days ago. Although, their stock had been valued at more in the last year than what's been offered. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Gannett's got to look at it. But it's looking at it warily. It was hoping not so long ago to take over the Tribune Publishing newspaper chain. It had sought to maybe consolidate with others to try to survive and ride out this huge storm. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Right. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: And yet, we're going to see if it turns out to be one of the minnows rather than one of the whales. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: All righty (ph). Thank you, David. DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: You bet. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: NPR's David Folkenflik.

Gannett, the owner of USA Today and some 100 other newspaper properties has received an unsolicited bid from another newspaper group, MNG, known for imposing severe cost-cutting measures.

Gannett, der Eigentümer von USA Today und rund 100 anderen Zeitungsunternehmen, hat ein unaufgefordertes Angebot von einer anderen Zeitungsgruppe, MNG, erhalten, die für ihre strengen Sparmaßnahmen bekannt ist.

甘尼特《今日美国》和其他100家报纸的所有者，收到了另一家报业集团MNG的主动出价，这家公司以推行严厉的成本削减措施而闻名。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Democrats in New York vote as well on Tuesday. New York Times columnist Frank Bruni has been watching Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton make their respective cases. And he joins us now live. Good morning, Frank. FRANK BRUNI: Good morning. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You've been writing about these two candidates for months. At this point in the race, has all the campaigning made them better candidates? Or has it done more to expose their weaknesses? Let's start with Bernie Sanders. FRANK BRUNI: Well, you know, it's done a little bit of both. In Bernie's case - in mister - Senator Sanders's case, it's interesting because it's difficult to go through a campaign this long and not end up seeming more like a conventional politician than you did at the start. You know, of course he came into this running a different kind of campaign, coming from a very different direction than other Democratic candidates for the nomination have come. And he was, in many ways, trying to transcend politics as usual. A long campaign is politics as usual and you end up seeming less pure, less high-minded, more like everybody else. And in that sense, I think his campaign - his candidacy has sullied him a little bit. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And for Hillary Clinton. FRANK BRUNI: Well, you know, we knew Hillary Clinton so well going in. I don't think we've learned a lot new about her. The main thing we've seen with her is that there are very, very finite limits to her appeal. And I think there was a sense of that beforehand, but it's been validated by this campaign. Her unfavorable ratings remain pretty high. She hasn't been able to turn that around. And if the GOP wasn't suffering a sort of implosion of its own, I think there would be great worry about her prospects in a general election. But she may get the incredible break of a very, very weak controversial Republican nominee against her. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's assuming a lot. I mean, who knows how the Republican primary is going to end up. And if she is the nominee, how does she bridge that enthusiasm gap? I mean, we've seen this huge enthusiasm, all these crowds for Sanders. She's got to figure out how to bring them under her tent. And is there a kind of a political risk in this era in framing yourself as the safe choice? FRANK BRUNI: (Laughter) There's always a risk in that because you need turnout. You need people to be passionate about you. And saying I'm safe and sensible is not a very romantic pitch. FRANK BRUNI: I think what happens if she becomes the nominee - and you're right, I made a lot of assumptions a moment ago - if she becomes the nominee, I think what happens, sadly, is she tries as much to convince people of how horrible the other choice would be as how good she is. And we end up, I think, with quite a negative campaign, which it won't be the first time. But the problem with that is when we have these negative campaigns and then someone ends up in office, it becomes very difficult to govern because you created such a - such an atmosphere of enmity that when you then need people to come together to make decisions and progress, it's difficult. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You wrote this past week in your column that the split within the Democratic Party has been obscured by all the drama on the GOP side, but that there is real trouble within the Democratic Party. What are the fault lines as you see them? FRANK BRUNI: There are a number of fault lines. I mean, one is in foreign policy. You saw this fault line very, very clearly in the debate in Brooklyn. Hillary Clinton talked a lot about the value of foreign interventions. And Bernie Sanders talked a lot about the folly and shortsightedness of so many of them. That's a very big fault line in the Democratic Party. Then there's a big overarching fault line, which is whether we need to tinker with and improve the system as it is or sort of throw it out and begin anew. Bernie Sanders is sort of saying the latter. And Hillary Clinton's saying no, I've worked within the system. Only certain kinds of changes are possible. I know where we can tinker. So it's sort of revolution versus tinkering - is a big fault line. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you think that's a problem that extends beyond these two candidates? It's something that's a problem at large for the party? FRANK BRUNI: Absolutely. I don't think people are responding to Bernie Sanders - there's many, many supporters - just because he's such a great candidate. I think they're responding to the ideas that he's promoting, to what he represents. They're some of the same people who have been so excited about Elizabeth Warren. So it's bigger than him. And I think it will survive this contest. I think it's something we'll be dealing with over the next decade. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: New York Times columnist Frank Bruni. His latest book is titled "Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be." Thanks so much, Frank. FRANK BRUNI: Thank you very much.

NPR's Rachel Martin talks about the state of the Democratic presidential race with New York Times columnist Frank Bruni.

Rachel Martin von NPR spricht mit dem Kolumnisten der New York Times, Frank Bruni, über den Stand des demokratischen Präsidentschaftsrennens.

NPR的雷切尔·马丁与《纽约时报》专栏作家弗兰克·布鲁尼谈论了民主党总统竞选的状况。

JOHN DONVAN, host: And now, the Opinion Page. After eight years under President Bush, many civil libertarians were thrilled when Barack Obama won the 2008 election. What a difference a few years make. Law Professor Jonathan Turley argues in a recent op-ed that, quote, "the election of Barack Obama may stand as one of the single most devastating events in our history for civil liberties." Now, if you supported President Obama in the last election, we want to know: How important is this issue of civil liberties to you? Will it make or break your support for the president going forward? Give us a call: 800-989-8255. And our email address is talk@npr.org. And you can also join the conversation at our website and find a link to the Turley op-ed. Go to npr.org and click on TALK OF THE NATION. JOHN DONVAN, host: So Jonathan Turley, he's a law professor at George Washington University. His piece, "Obama: A Disaster for Civil Liberties," ran last month in the Los Angeles Times, and he joins us now in Studio 3A. So you say of President Obama that his election may be one of the single most devastating events in our history for civil liberties? That is very, very strong language, Jonathan. JONATHAN TURLEY: It is a strong language, but I think civil libertarians are coming to grips with what is really a building disaster for our movement, and it's been a rather difficult process. You know, I have a large civil liberties blog, and there's a lot of soul-searching among civil libertarians about what exactly happened. But we are engaging in a sense of collective denial when we deal with President Obama. JOHN DONVAN, host: You mean you're not talking about it publicly. JONATHAN TURLEY: Yeah. And I think that's part of the purpose of this column, is to address the fact that President Obama is a perfect nightmare when it comes to civil liberties. He not only adopted most of President Bush's policies in the civil liberties areas when it comes to terrorism, but he actually expanded on them. He outdid George Bush. JONATHAN TURLEY: And they range. His position on torture and refusing to have people investigated or prosecuted for torture, on privacy lawsuits. He pushed aggressively for the dismissal of dozens of lawsuits brought by private interest organizations. He's for immunity for people who engaged in warrantless surveillance. He has fought standing for people even to be able to get courts to review his programs, much like George Bush. He kept military tribunals and the authority to make the discretionary choice of sending some people to a real court, some people to a military tribunal. He has asserted the right to kill U.S. citizens based solely on his own discretion, that he believes them to be a threat to the country. JONATHAN TURLEY: His administration has, once again, as with the Bush administration, cited secret law, that - and including a case of assassinating citizens - a law that we're not allowed to see, but we have to trust them. JOHN DONVAN, host: All right. Let me stop you there, Jonathan, because I, again, want to invite callers to weigh in on this subject, particularly if you were among those who supported the president in the last election. Is this issue a make-or-break issue for your? Our number is 800-989-8255. And, Jonathan, the way that you're talking about this as a supporter of civil liberties - which I know that you are from your track record - almost as an act of betrayal, that this was going to be your civil libertarian president. Is that the idea? JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, certainly. I supported Barack Obama. I wasn't very quiet about my support. I thought he was going to be a refreshing change to George Bush. But what has happened is that we have an election that's become a single-issue election, and that issue is Barack Obama. And he's an icon to both sides. But what's happened to the civil liberties movement is that we generally have a pendulum swing back in favor of civil liberties, which we were building towards after the Bush administration. JONATHAN TURLEY: Polls were showing that citizens were opposed to many of the abuses, that they wanted to see more protections, and Barack Obama really rowed that way. He portrayed himself as a civil libertarian. And then when he proved to adopt many of Bush's positions and adopt even worse positions in some regards, it split the base of the civil liberties movement. There are many people that frankly cannot get themselves to oppose Barack Obama. They make a lot of excuse for him. JOHN DONVAN, host: You mean emotionally they can't do it? JONATHAN TURLEY: They can't emotionally, politically, personally. They just have a very difficult time opposing a man who's an icon and has made history - the first black president, but also the guy that replaced George Bush. And the result is something akin to the Stockholm syndrome, where you've got this identification with your captor. I mean, the Democratic Party is split, civil libertarians are split, and the Democratic Party itself is now viewed by most of libertarians as very hostile toward civil liberties. JONATHAN TURLEY: Senators and members of the House, it turns out, were aware of many of these abuses and never informed people. JOHN DONVAN, host: Well, it's interesting one of the things you're saying is, in a sense, granting your point provisionally - that you're saying that he's getting away with it because it's just not enough of a hot issue toward the public at large. Or, if it is, people don't want to talk about it. I want to test that with some of our listeners and go to Aileen(ph) in Andover, Michigan. Aileen, you're on the air. And would you like to speak with Jonathan Turley? AILEEN: Yes. Hi. It's Ann Arbor, Michigan (unintelligible). Yes, I want to say, first of all, that I respect Professor Turley very much. I enjoy watching him on Rachel Maddow and other shows. And as much as I respect his view - and I'm saying that he's wrong in and of itself, based on the facts. But I think that we, sometimes on the left, we can be very naive because obviously after he stopped being a campaigner and became the president and was privy to information that we do not see, he changed his mind on a number of issues, because his primary responsibility is to protect us. JOHN DONVAN, host: Let me bring that to Jonathan. It's a very interesting point, Ailene. Jonathan, Ailene, making the point that the president was sincere when he took those stands during the election campaign. But once elected to office, he found stuff out. He was better informed at what was going on behind the scenes and, as she put it, he changed his mind. JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, that's an example of how hard many people are working to excuse something that is inexcusable. Let me give you an example in terms of torture. President Obama, as soon as he came into office, assured CIA employees that they would not be investigated or prosecuted for torture even though he admitted that waterboarding was, in fact, torture. We have treaties and laws that require us to investigate and prosecute people who commit torture. Whether or not they're guilty of it, we have an obligation to investigate. JONATHAN TURLEY: All countries say that it's an inconvenient moment, that we don't want to divide the country. We want to come together. That's always what leaders say to avoid these investigations. The United States put - was put in the same category by Barack Obama as countries like Serbia in fighting investigations of torture. That was a political decision. It wasn't something that he had learned. It was because it would be politically costly for him to order investigation that he knew was likely to result in a prosecution of high-ranking Bush official. JOHN DONVAN, host: But if you say that as a nation we tend to correct swings of the pendulum away from civil liberties, why would he not enjoy the pendulum swing ride back in the direction in which he was riding it during the election? Why stop once he was elected to office? JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, unfortunately, for civil libertarians, we're very familiar with this phenomenon. We tend to be the bridesmaid and never the bride at Democratic weddings. You know, they come and they offer us their fealty and we vote for them and then they abandon us once they get into power. And the reason is that Barack Obama clearly made the decision attack to the right to say that he was tough on terror, and that was rather overtly done. And many of these things, in terms of - he just knows things he doesn't, you know, he didn't know before - really doesn't fit with many of the policies that he had advanced, things like the assassination of U.S. citizens. JONATHAN TURLEY: Barack Obama is now claiming the right to kill any U.S. citizen by writing his name on a list if he satisfy that he's a threat. They spent two years looking for Awlaki, who - few people in the passing of. But the point is that you don't have an outcry among Democratic citizens of the implications of what happens when a president can designate U.S. citizen - George Bush killed a U.S. citizen who is a collateral in an assassination of a drone. Barack Obama did him one better and actually intentionally killed a U.S. citizen and killed a second U.S. citizen in the process. But Democrats are completely silent because it's Barack Obama. And to me, that smacks a lot like occulted personality. JOHN DONVAN, host: I want to go Desnay(ph) in Aiken, South Carolina. Desnay, can you hear us all right? DESNAY: Yeah, I'm here. JOHN DONVAN, host: Yeah, join us. DESNAY: I am here. Not only did I vote for him, I held parties for him and I am extremely disturbed by the fact that he signed that executive order. And I have read Jonathan Turley's writing on the issue. I agree with him 100 percent. I can't wrap my head around supporting him. JOHN DONVAN, host: So for you, this actually is a make-or-break issue? DESNAY: Yeah. All of what he's done - extending all of Bush's - The Patriot Act. Everything that he's done - I find it extremely disturbing that a constitutional lawyer doesn't know the Constitution. I don't care what color he is. I'm black too. JOHN DONVAN, host: Jonathan Turley, given that kind of attitude but at the same time pushing back with your argument that people aren't talking about this very much, do you think, going forward, that this is actually going to hurt the president's political prospects? JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, I think it will. I think that the president flew past the fail safe point, on torture particularly. His administration didn't just promise not to prosecute people for torture, but it actually tore up founding principles from Nuremburg. You know, they argue, for example, that CIA employees can never be prosecuted for torture because they were following orders, that they were just doing what they were told to do. That's the exact argument the United States fought against in Nuremberg and said you cannot say that people are just following orders if they commit a war crime. JONATHAN TURLEY: They also relieved responsibility of lawyers. They became circulated. They said, these people were following the advice of lawyers and then when we called for the discipline of lawyers, they said, well, they were just giving liquid advice. And this perfect circle was designed to avoid accountability for torture. And torture is one of those foundational principles that not just shocks the conscience, but it is very hard for any civil libertarian or for many civil libertarians to vote for someone who's in violation of the convention on torture. JOHN DONVAN, host: We're talking about President Obama's record on civil liberties since being in office. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. We're talking with Jonathan Turley, who's written this quite sharp op-ed piece in The Los Angeles Times, suggesting that - not suggesting, accusing President Obama of having a worst record on civil liberties than his predecessor President Bush. JOHN DONVAN, host: And, Jonathan, you're making the argument that he's doing this for political reasons, to tact to the right in order to - I suppose your argument is to try to govern. Say he's elected to a second term and he doesn't have the re-election pressure again, what would your expectation be for the president? JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, he has succeeded lowering my expectations, so I can only be pleasantly surprised. But the problem is that the Democratic Party itself is now heavily invested in these policies. One of the most shocking things that come out of the Bush administration was the knowledge that Democratic leaders were aware of the torture program. They were aware of the warrantless surveillance program. They never told voters when they were running of it. But they allowed those programs to continue without opposition. And he - so he has many of his own party that are very invested. The other problem with this is that we have basically come down to this that I guess the problem with the Bush administration was Bush, and the position seems to be, you can trust us. And when civil libertarians objected to President Obama saying he could kill any American citizen that he believes is a danger to the United States... JOHN DONVAN, host: (Unintelligible) trust us. JONATHAN TURLEY: ...that he can put him on a list to be hit, what came out were a bunch of civil libertarians that now work for the administration who said, well, don't worry, we were in the room. Trust us. JOHN DONVAN, host: Yeah. Yeah. Sam Knight(ph) sends us an email. He says: Yes, our civil liberties have become diminished - the cause is terrorism. Terrorists are not represented by a government. They do not wear uniforms. The person standing next to me at the grocery store can be a terrorist. Unfortunately, says Sam Knight, to protect us from the terrorists, some civil liberties will be lost or diminished. In other words, he's saying it's the price we have to pay. JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, I think he makes the argument from civil liberties' standpoint. You're right. You'd be standing next to someone who's accused to be a terrorist. How do you know? That's the point. We have a country that's formed on principles, of checks and balances that we don't trust people to make these decisions. We have an entire legal system that has become virtually superfluous. It's almost Fellini-esque. We got a system that works hard to get the question of guilt right. JONATHAN TURLEY: It takes years to execute someone to get it right, but the president can simply take that offline by writing a name on a piece of paper and say, I am confident. So it becomes a presidential prerogative to take the whole system offline. And he has done that also with military tribunals. We mocked Bush for saying that he could sit there Caesar-like and send one person to a military tribunal and one to a real court. Barack Obama endorsed the same policy. He claims the same power. JOHN DONVAN, host: Let's bring in Myer from Houston. Myer, you're on the air. MYER: Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I think you're looking at a one situation issue. It's like rebutting for Ralph Nader. I don't think any Republican starting with Nixon who had a hit list, so to speak, would be any better on civil liberties. In fact, I think they would be worst no matter what your argument is. I think it's a very mixed bag. And I think that you are off base because you would allow us to elect someone who would probably do more harm than less harm. Thank you. JOHN DONVAN, host: You want to take that, Jonathan? JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, first of all, it is very hard to imagine these policies getting worse because the president has endorsed absolute power, the same as Bush has, and now Democrats are invested in it. So if that's a Republican president, Democrats will be complete hypocrites if they object to the next president using these powers just as Barack Obama did. And it is very easy to say he is better than the next guy. Civil libertarians tend not to think that way. We owe a base responsibility to things like the Geneva Convention. And we are taught that civil liberties are things that don't become political playthings. JONATHAN TURLEY: And what is left is that we look ridiculous. We came out today - they came out to say with a report that our Afghan allies are now torturing people in prison and that U.S. officials, NATO officials are looking into it. Imagine how ridiculous that meeting would be for an American official to say, you better investigate to people committing torture because we can't go forward. We've adopted a position that is the exact opposite, so we have this legal system that can be pointed to as a cathedral for hypocrisies(ph), much like, you know, "Macbeth" that's full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, if the president, on his prerogative, can take it all offline. JOHN DONVAN, host: Jonathan, last thing I want to ask you: As long as it's not our mail that's being opened and hour phones that are being tapped, and we have the perception that it's bad guys and terrorists and for our white people, is this something that just isn't going to settle down on the horizon of most Americans? JONATHAN TURLEY: Well, unfortunately, most Americans are greeting this news with a yawn. The fact that they could be on the list is something that seems remote. And we have this collective national yawn that is quite disturbing. JOHN DONVAN, host: Jonathan Turley is a law professor at George Washington University. Again, a link to his piece: Obama: A Disaster for Civil Liberties can be found in our website npr.org, click on TALK OF THE NATION. Thanks for joining us today. This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm John Donvan in Washington.

Jonathan Turley argues in a recent op-ed in the Los Angeles Times that "the election of Barack Obama may stand as one of the single most devastating events in our history for civil liberties." He says President Obama has continued many of the most controversial Bush administration programs.

Jonathan Turley argumentiert in einem kürzlich erschienenen Kommentar in der Los Angeles Times, dass \"die Wahl von Barack Obama als eines der verheerendsten Ereignisse in unserer Geschichte für die bürgerlichen Freiheiten gelten könnte\". Er sagt, Präsident Obama habe viele der umstrittensten Programme der Bush-Regierung fortgesetzt.

乔纳森·特里在《洛杉矶时报》最近的一篇专栏文章中指出，“巴拉克·奥巴马的当选可能是我们历史上对公民自由最具破坏性的事件之一。”他说，奥巴马总统继续执行布什政府许多最具争议的计划。

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to turn now to what may or may not be a new third rail in the new Congress. It is the question of impeachment. Congressman Brad Sherman quietly reintroduced articles of impeachment against the president, while the president and some Republicans seized on newly-elected Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib's ad-libbed call for impeachment at a reception where she was speaking to lambaste the Democrats as unserious and uncouth. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Meanwhile, Democratic leaders are advocating a cautious approach. Today on "CBS Sunday Morning," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Congress needs to wait to see what comes out of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation. NANCY PELOSI: If and when the time comes for impeachment, it will have to be something that has such a crescendo in a bipartisan way. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yesterday, though, New York Times columnist David Leonhardt added his name to the list of those calling for impeachment - or at least for the Democrats to hold aggressive hearings to make the public case for it. In a lengthy op-ed he wrote that, quote, "waiting to remove President Trump from office is too dangerous and that the cost of removing a president from office is smaller than the cost of allowing this president to remain" - unquote. And David Leonhardt is with us now. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome. Thank you so much for talking with us. DAVID LEONHARDT: Thank you for having me. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: As I said, it's a lengthy piece, and we don't have time to discuss all of the details of it. But it addresses two issues - why impeachment and why now. So I'm going to start by asking you, why now? DAVID LEONHARDT: I think the answer to why now is that the dangers that President Trump presents to the country are growing. You can see that the moderating influences in his administration like Gen. Mattis are leaving. You can see him acting on more of his impulses, like pulling troops out or shutting down the government. And so we have long known that he is unfit for office, but Republicans are starting to have a sense for the political costs he creates for their party. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And, as you know, that this isn't going anywhere without congressional Republicans getting on board, either publicly or privately. So what's your evidence that a focus on - I mean, for you, this is a matter of substance. This is a matter of fact. But for other people, you know, whether or not it is a matter of fact, it's a matter of facts that they can or cannot explain to their supporters, right? So what is your evidence that congressional Republicans would be amenable to these facts as you understand them? DAVID LEONHARDT: Yeah. So, in the end, politicians almost always act in their own personal self-interest (laughter), their political self-interest. And I think that when Republicans look at the reality - they just lost the popular vote in the House midterms by almost 9 percentage points. President Trump's approval rating is just 40 percent. And maybe it's not going to go a lot lower, but it shows no evidence of going higher. And so I just think that if Democrats are able to keep - try to keep some attention on how unpopular his agenda is and how corrupt he and his administration have been and the many ways he is acting like no president before him, I think there is a significant chance. It's not guaranteed, but I think there's a significant chance that his support starts to weaken. DAVID LEONHARDT: And the only other thing I'd add to that is that he already has less support from his own party in Congress than any other president in memory. So Republicans have not defied him the way I wish they would, the way I think it's their patriotic duty to do. But they have also not supported him the way Obama or Bush or Clinton or Bush or Reagan - and I could go on - were supported by members of their own party. I think his support right now is broad but shallow, and it would not shock me if he struggles to keep that support as Robert Mueller issues his report and as the year goes on. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And, finally, many Democrats and many other outspoken individuals like, for example, the former FBI director, James Comey, who is no fan of this president, you know, obviously... DAVID LEONHARDT: Yeah. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Have argued that, you know, impeachment is a distraction from credible opponents to get themselves sorted out in advance of the 2020 election, including some of your own colleagues on the New York Times editorial board. Why are they wrong? DAVID LEONHARDT: Well, I'm sympathetic to a couple of parts of their argument. I agree with the idea that impeachment right now would be a distraction. I think that impeachment right now would be a mistake. But I think Democrats should continue making the case for removal from office. The reason why I don't think it's OK just to wait for 2020 - I think people are underestimating the potential for a true crisis. Imagine if there were a war somewhere in the world, and the United States had to decide whether to get involved. It would be really irresponsible to leave Trump in office knowing he is unfit for the presidency. DAVID LEONHARDT: The second reason why I don't think we should just passively wait for 2020 is the precedent. He, again, has acted the way no president in our lifetimes has. He's treated the presidency as a branding opportunity. He's broken campaign finance law. He's obstructed justice. I don't think that we want to set a precedent that as long as you win election, you're allowed to complete your term no matter what. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was New York Times op-ed columnist David Leonhardt talking to us about his piece, "The People Vs. Donald J. Trump." MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: David Leonhardt, thanks so much for talking to us. DAVID LEONHARDT: Thank you very much for having me.

New York Times columnist David Leonhardt added his name to a list of people calling for President Trump's impeachment. He tells NPR's Michel Martin why he's writing this now.

Der Kolumnist der New York Times, David Leonhardt, hat seinen Namen einer Liste von Personen hinzugefügt, die die Amtsenthebung von Präsident Trump fordern. Er erzählt Michel Martin von NPR, warum er das jetzt schreibt.

《纽约时报》专栏作家大卫·莱昂哈特将自己的名字加入了呼吁弹劾特朗普总统的名单中。他告诉NPR的米歇尔·马丁为什么他现在写这篇文章。

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Finally today, a disturbing story about an R&B superstar. For years, Robert Kelly, better known as R. Kelly, was at the top of the R&B charts. Many of his songs were raunchy, and his performances were infused with sexual overtones, but some of his other hits were so popular, so mainstream, they became a staple of graduations and church services. UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky. I think about it... MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: But there was a side to R. Kelly that was not an act, and that is the focus of a three-part documentary that started airing this week on Lifetime. It's called "Surviving R. Kelly," and it describes in graphic detail the singer's alleged pursuit of teenaged girls over decades, with painful accounts of the physical and psychological abuse they say they experienced from him. R. Kelly was prosecuted in 2008 in connection with one such allegation involving a 14-year-old girl. He was acquitted after the alleged victim refused to testify. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And to this day, R. Kelly continues to deny allegations of such conduct. Lifetime has aired two episodes, with the third and final installments set to air tonight. And we should mention here, as the filmmakers do, that this subject matter may be very upsetting for some listeners. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Having said that, I started my conversation with executive producer Dream Hampton by asking her why she wanted to make this film. And she talked about the #MeToo movement. DREAM HAMPTON: We've watched, like, really powerful men be taken down by really credible allegations about decades of really bad behavior. I'm talking Roger Ailes, Bill O'Reilly, obviously Harvey Weinstein. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: But Dream Hampton says R. Kelly's name has not come up, and it should. DREAM HAMPTON: And for those of us who are from that generation, that is remarkable that one of our most egregious offenders is just not in the conversation at all. And I thought it was important that he, you know, that we have a reckoning with who he has been and continues to be. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: There are a number of explosive allegations in this film. And I do want to point out that the Chicago Sun-Times, for example, has very aggressively covered R. Kelly over the years. But it's your contention that most people still don't know the full picture of this person. DREAM HAMPTON: Well, it's Jim DeRogatis who has been - and relentless and was publishing in places outside of the Sun-Times when they became disinterested. To this day, these girls are still not able to talk to their parents. And we know that they are being abused, that they are being denied food, denied movement, denied contact with their families. And that's happening right now in 2019. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You are referring to the fact that girls who are of age, even though they are the legal age of consent, it is alleged that they are being essentially held as captives. It's almost like a cult-like situation. DREAM HAMPTON: Yes. And, Michel, one of the girls, Azriel Clar, who he still has to this day, was 17, which is not the legal age of consent in Florida and may be the only possible case against him in the present. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Now, I'm going to hold that thought for a minute and get to the allegation that he has pursued very young girls for a very long time, almost throughout his adult life. And you speak to one woman named Lisa Van Allen who says that she, from the age of 17, was basically used as - what would you say? - a sex slave of his or she was induced into sexual relationships with an under-aged girl. LISA VAN ALLEN: When I figured out that I had had sex with a 14-year-old, it made me feel betrayed because he lied to me and told me she was 16, which would have been close to my age. And it also made me question his motives. I mean, the fact that he lied about her age to me told me that he obviously knew that wasn't OK for her to be younger. DREAM HAMPTON: That girl ended up being the girl on the tape. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And the tape is what, for those who don't know? DREAM HAMPTON: It's a horrific tape. It's one that I avoided when it went kind of viral in the streets in 2000, 2001 because I knew that it was child pornography. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Dream Hampton says she set out to document how R. Kelly lured aspiring singers into inappropriate sexual relationships through their mutual love of music, a pattern she suggests may have begun with Aaliyah, a rising star who tragically died in a plane crash in 2001. R. Kelly married Aaliyah when she was only 15, and he was 27. The marriage was later annulled. Dream Hampton notes, though, that not all the young women were superstars in the making. DREAM HAMPTON: While, yes, he did target aspiring singers, he also basically has a pattern of choosing regular black girls who don't look, you know, who aren't the most glamorous, who aren't coming in, like, super sexy. In fact, we have, you know, stories from Jim DeRogatis's reporting and from the girls' testimony of him as actually making them dress less sexy. And he operates - you were talking about a cult. I would say it's far closer to like a sex-trafficking ring. DREAM HAMPTON: So, you know, he chooses girls that a lot of his fans dismiss and disbelieve. And for all kinds of complicated and historical reasons, we don't believe. We don't necessarily believe that, you know, black girls - we don't afford them innocence in the same way we don't afford black boys innocence. And, you know, police will tell you that they thought Tamir Rice was 16 instead of 12. We do the same thing to black girls. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: The other thing that the film does is describe the network of people who enabled the behavior. I mean, in the film, we hear how staff members used to go out and give his number to certain girls whom he had identified. And I wonder, what do you hope that people will learn from your discussion of their conduct? DREAM HAMPTON: Well, on one hand, it's more evidence of how he, himself, has created an ecosystem. I mean, the girls talk about receiving rules. And very quickly, they understand who's in the ecosystem. But it made me think of men who are abusive, men who are guilty of statutory rape, men who prey on young girls belong to families. You know, they are our cousins, our brothers, you know. And we just have not had the conversations about what it looks like. And, quite frankly, this is a conversation that, you know, men need to be having with one another about what it looks like to hold each other accountable. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You know, we've been following Twitter, of course, over the last couple of days. Some people are saying it just doesn't matter. You know, there's the art and then there's the artist, and his behavior shouldn't be part of the equation. And what would you say to people who believe that? DREAM HAMPTON: With music in particular, unlike other art forms, we connect it not to the artist necessarily but to moments in our life - you know, to our graduation, to our wedding, to our family reunion. And I get that. But what we'd like to do is deny them this ability to say that he's innocent, so that if you're going to be a supporter of him, then you're not going to be able to tell us he's innocent. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was Dream Hampton, the executive producer of the Lifetime documentary "Surviving R. Kelly." Dream Hampton, thank you so much for talking with us. DREAM HAMPTON: Thank you, Michel.

NPR's Michel Martin speaks with filmmaker dream hampton about her new six-part docuseries on Lifetime.

Michel Martin von NPR spricht mit der Filmemacherin Dream Hampton über ihre neue sechsteilige Doku-Serie auf Lifetime.

美国国家公共广播电台的米歇尔·马丁采访了电影制作人梦·汉普顿，谈论她在Lifetime频道上的六集纪录片。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: On today's show, we've got our weekly Africa update with NPR's Gwen Thompkins. And I'll sit down with Spinderella, the deejay for classic hip-hop duo of Salt-N-Pepa. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But first, Democrats and some Republicans continue to pressure the Bush administration to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq. Roughly 3,600 have died since the 2003 invasion, and the current troop surge has pushed the war tab in Iraq and Afghanistan combined to $12 billion a month. The Senate is going to weigh a new military funding bill this week and the temperature of the debates only going to get hotter. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got NPR senior correspondent Juan Williams. Juan, it's great to talk with you again. JUAN WILLIAMS: Always good to be with you, Farai. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, let's start with Republican defections. President Bush has been losing some steam among his own party. Who's having second thoughts? How important is this? JUAN WILLIAMS: It is important and I think the reason is important and that political dynamic in Washington is that Republicans have been stalwart supporters in terms of their votes on Capitol Hill, preventing the Democrats, for example, in the emergency supplemental spending decision, I guess, just a month ago, from imposing any kind of deadline for troop withdrawals from Iraq. JUAN WILLIAMS: Now, we're starting to see leading Republicans, Farai, people like Richard Lugar, who had been the top Republican on foreign relations - still is - but he had been the chairman before the Democrats took over, saying that right now is the time to begin redeploying troops in Iraq, fearing that if you wait until September when there is supposed to be a report from General David Petraeus, it will be too late that the politics of the moment will make things too paralyzed and it will be too difficult to really decide what's the best movement for American troops in that region. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you have these Republicans, some of them turning away from the war, but one person who isn't, is Senator John McCain. He's had some really bad campaign news recently, a lot of turbulence, not such great fund-raising. Is his position supporting the war or hurting him? JUAN WILLIAMS: Of course, it is. And, you know, John McCain's strength had been with swing voters and the whole idea that he was highly electable and, you know, his campaign is in free-fall, Farai. And I think it's a real surprise to a lot of the political insiders, people who follow these events like I do because it seems with the president not running, with Dick Cheney not running, if there was any heir apparent it was John McCain, especially because he seemed so attractive to the swing voters who are critical in the recent elections. JUAN WILLIAMS: But now, given his position on immigration reform, which hurt him with the base; given his position on the war, which hurts him with swing voters, it seems as if he's lost all of the kind of, you know, there's the structure - the meaning that people would identify with his campaign. And I think that's why he's in such trouble and he's coming back now from a trip to Baghdad and he's been a consistent supporter of the president, as you pointed out, Farai. JUAN WILLIAMS: And at the thought around town is at the White House - I might add - that what is John McCain is going to do now is say, listen, based on the failure of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to achieve any political settlement with the Sunnis, al-Maliki this year failed - failure to do anything in terms of stabilizing the fighting in Iraq to build up the Iraqi military, failure to do anything in terms of dividing the oil revenue and the economic solutions, that he can no longer support the on-going war. JUAN WILLIAMS: So that - if that happens then it's not only Lugar, Voinovich, Domenici then, you get voices - loud voices like Senator McCain and the president's position becomes all the more untenable. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Juan, let's turn to the Democrats. You have the Senate weighing in on Iraq again this week. How much of the Democrats going to push on this, and what do they want? Do you think they're going to achieve it? JUAN WILLIAMS: Senator Harry Reid, Farai, who is, as you know, the senate majority leader, said recently that he thinks he hasn't done enough, that the Democrats haven't been sufficiently aggressive in trying to end the war in Iraq. JUAN WILLIAMS: Now, this was telling because, as you know, the Democrats don't want to be put in a posture of being anti-militaristic or not supporting the troops or defeatists. The idea is that they want to make it clear to the American people that they support the troops but they don't support this war effort and the way that the policy has been implemented. JUAN WILLIAMS: And so now, all of a sudden, Senator Reid says you know what, I think we can be more aggressive. And if you look at polls including one poll out this morning from USA Today, it indicates now that over 60 percent of Americans who think it was a mistake to ever go into Iraq and a mistake to persist in terms of our policies there. JUAN WILLIAMS: And I think Harry Reid is picking up on that political temperature, picking up on the defections coming from the likes of Lugar, Voinovich and Domenici, and saying this is a moment to appeal to Republicans to come over. So if the Democrats are going to achieve their ends, they're going to have to win some Republican votes and, apparently, Senator Reid sense it that this is the moment. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, there's this interim report on benchmarks in Iraq due soon, all of the initial word says there aren't really any positives coming out of it. Will this provide an opportunity for the Bush administration to rethink its position and is that, I mean, is that even realistic? Is the administration even going to rethink the troop surge, the troop numbers, troop withdrawals? JUAN WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I was talking to a lot of the White House people yesterday and what - they've had some conversations. But the conversations have been sparked because of Lugar speaking out, because of Domenici speaking out. Steve Hadley, who's the national security adviser who's been up on Capitol Hill, trying to reassure senators and stop them from acting in a way that he might described as impulsively in reaction to the public opinion polls, to the troubles that was ongoing. This weekend was particularly bloody in Iraq, as you well know; so that's what they've been doing but they haven't been reconsidering their basic strategy. JUAN WILLIAMS: To the contrary, the message that you're likely to hear later this week when the president speaks publicly about this - they're thinking about a major address - is that yes, this is an interim report. And the interim report indicates that the al-Maliki government has failed in so many ways, but we must be patient. JUAN WILLIAMS: In many ways, I think, what you'll hear from the president's reprise of the speech he gave on July 4th in West Virginia when he said we acknowledge the sacrifice of our troops. We understand what is going on there, but we really counsel your patience because it so critically important to the nation's national security interests that we continue to fight the terrorists in Iraq. That's their thinking. That's what they're sticking with and they're simply asking for patience, Farai. They're not changing their position on the value of the surge or even their timetable is about whether the surge can be measured at this point as opposed to September. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Juan, we definitely want to stay in touch with you on this one and it's a pleasure as always. JUAN WILLIAMS: It's a pleasure, Farai. It's a stormy political weather here and stormy, literally, so we should stay in touch. It's important. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Absolutely. NPR senior correspondent Juan Williams joined us from NPR's Washington, D.C. headquarters.

Host Farai Chideya talks to NPR senior correspondent Juan Williams about the political storm in Washington, D.C., now swirling around a potential withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. U.S. soldiers take a combat position as they patrol central Baghdad.

Moderator Farai Chideya spricht mit dem leitenden NPR-Korrespondenten Juan Williams über den politischen Sturm in Washington, D.C., der jetzt um einen möglichen Abzug der US-Truppen aus dem Irak herumwirbelt. US-Soldaten nehmen eine Kampfposition ein, während sie im Zentrum von Bagdad patrouillieren.

主持人法莱·奇德亚与美国国家公共广播电台高级记者胡安·威廉姆斯谈论华盛顿特区的政治风暴，现在正围绕着美国从伊拉克撤军的可能性展开讨论。美军士兵在巴格达市中心巡逻时采取战斗姿势。

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: This seems to be a fundamental truth of American politics. Less money can mean less influence. The city of Seattle tried an experiment to change that - not by taking big money out of politics, but by flooding it with small money. Here's Kenny Malone from our Planet Money podcast and Sarah Kliff from Vox. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: In 2015, Seattle voted to do something unprecedented - to send money to everybody so they could donate to political campaigns. SARAH KLIFF: A half million Seattleites needed to receive a hundred dollars in vouchers. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: So you're the man the voucher program fell on. WAYNE BARNETT: Yes. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: Wayne Barnett is the executive director of the Seattle Ethics and Elections Commission. WAYNE BARNETT: I was excited on one level because it is very innovative program. But at the same time, it was kind of terrifying because it is an innovative program. SARAH KLIFF: Nowhere else in the country had tried a program like this. And Barnett had to figure out everything. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: How to mail these things out, what a voucher should even look like, what the envelope should look like. WAYNE BARNETT: This is the envelope that included the vouchers, and it just said... SARAH KLIFF: In the end, there were four $25 vouchers. They looked kind of like blue checks. And they came in an envelope that said, your Democracy Vouchers are here. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: And to be honest, it looked a little like junk mail. TERESA MOSQUEDA: Frankly, I thought it was news about recycling, so I recycled it. SARAH KLIFF: This is Teresa Mosqueda. And these vouchers were so unusual that even Mosqueda, a city council candidate that year, thought they were junk mail. TERESA MOSQUEDA: And only later did I think to myself, well, I think that might be the vouchers. And I went back and pulled it out. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: And so the city needed to tell people, hey, these are your vouchers. So they put up posters. They did interviews. There's also a lost voucher commercial featuring a talking dog. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) That's my human. She's looking for Democracy Vouchers. But she's not going to find them because I ate them (burping). KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: Anyway, these vouchers allowed new kinds of candidates to run for office. Teresa Mosqueda, for example, was a first-time candidate - a renter who was still paying off her student loans. SARAH KLIFF: She says she wouldn't have run without the vouchers. In fact, she was funding her campaign with them, which meant she had to knock on a lot of doors and talk to a lot of voters. TERESA MOSQUEDA: They were like, it's really you on this flyer. You're here at my door. And I was like, yes. I'm out here introducing myself. And they would say, hold on. I'll be right back. They'd find the Democracy Vouchers in a pile on their table of mail, and they'd come back and they'd fill it out there, right at the door. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: And this was the program working - new candidates running for office, incentives for them to meet voters face-to-face and more voters participating in campaign finance. WAYNE BARNETT: Well, the bottom line is it tripled. SARAH KLIFF: Again, Wayne Barnett. WAYNE BARNETT: We had roughly 18,000 people who contributed to political campaigns. SARAH KLIFF: Which is great, but on the other hand, there were hundreds of thousands of people who got these vouchers and did not contribute. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: And, Barnett admits, there was also a bigger issue. WAYNE BARNETT: It is not a cheap program to run. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: As in, the whole program costs $2 million, paid for by a tax increase. And half of that money went to administrative costs. WAYNE BARNETT: Right - but, I mean, I think the question is, is your municipality - are they willing to pay to get more people involved in the political process? Seattle made the decision that we're willing to pay for that good. SARAH KLIFF: Seattle is sticking with the Democracy Voucher program. It'll be back for city elections next year. I'm Sarah Kliff, host of The Impact podcast from Vox. KENNY MALONE, BYLINE: And I'm Kenny Malone, NPR News.

Seattle tried an experiment to increase citizen participation in elections by mailing out thousands of vouchers good for donating to local campaigns. How did the Democracy Vouchers work out?

In Seattle wurde ein Experiment durchgeführt, um die Wahlbeteiligung der Bürger zu erhöhen, indem Tausende von Vouchers verschickt wurden, mit denen man für lokale Kampagnen spenden konnte. Wie haben sich die Democracy Vouchers bewährt?

西雅图尝试了一项实验，通过邮寄数千张用于捐赠给地方竞选活动的代金券来提高公民对选举的参与。 民主券的效果如何?

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Joining us now is Republican presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, who was not allowed to take part in last night's debate despite performing better than expected in Iowa. Mrs. Fiorina, thanks for being with us this morning. CARLY FIORINA: Good morning. Thank you for having me. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Your campaign sent out a statement yesterday saying that instead of watching the debate, you and your husband were going to have a date night and do dinner and a movie. Does that mean you did not watch? CARLY FIORINA: I did not watch. Now I don't have any need to watch a brawl that has nothing to do with the American people and everything to do with the power and ambition of the people on that stage. I have been saying since I launched this candidacy, the game is rigged. The debate last night, ABC and the RNC kept me off the stage despite the fact that I have beaten Christie and Kasich in Iowa, despite the fact that I tied Gov. Bush in delegates. Despite all that, despite the fact that votes and delegates are supposed to count, a bunch of executives in New York and Washington decided who the people of New Hampshire should hear from. But you see, that's just a microcosm of what's been going on for years. The poll... RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...So why do you think the game is rigged? I mean, do you think you were intentionally blocked from the debate? CARLY FIORINA: Well, let's look at the bigger picture here. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Why? CARLY FIORINA: I was intentionally blocked. Well, I don't know. Several candidates on the stage didn't want to debate me. They lobbied against me. The anybody-but-Carly, that worked. Maybe George Stephanopoulos really doesn't want me debating Hillary Clinton. But here's the bigger picture. This actually isn't about me. Eighty percent of the American people think we have a professional political class that cares more about its power, position and privilege, not getting anything done. They're right. Eighty percent of the American people think the federal government is corrupt, awash in special interest and crony capitalism. They're right. I'm running because we have to take our country back. And frankly, a vote for me is a vote for the American people because the game is rigged. The deck is stacked. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you've been saying that message, and you've been strong on that. And you performed, as you know, better in Iowa than Gov. Christie or Kasich, who were both on the debate stage. But you're still well behind the top three front-runners in this race. Clearly, you are still in the race because you think you can change that. But how? CARLY FIORINA: Let's talk about how I started. I started 17 out of 16 candidates. Less than 4 percent of voters had ever heard my name. I didn't have years of built-in email lists. The pundits wrote me off. The polls didn't even ask for my name. I have come further... RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...So does that mean you're where you want to be? You feel good about where you are? CARLY FIORINA: I have come further - from further behind than anyone running. There are only eight of us left. Yeah, I feel real good about where I am because guess what? I have already bested governors, both current and former, senators. Eight people are gone. Only eight people are standing. And I'm rising in the polls here in New Hampshire where, as you point out, half the people haven't even made up their mind yet. Yeah, I feel really good about where I am. And I think the American people are tired of the same old game. They've figured it out. They have a choice in this election. They can vote for me, which is a vote for them. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Only 2 percent of Republican women voted for you in the Iowa caucuses. Cruz got 27, Trump got 24. Even Ben Carson got 11 percent of female Republican votes. Were you disheartened by that? CARLY FIORINA: Not at all because you see, Trump is a celebrity who gets unequaled airtime. Cruz is a professional politician who just spent millions of dollars on his email lists for years. And Ben Carson is well-known, and has been for years. The people of Iowa didn't know who I was six months ago. They'd never heard of me. And yet, despite never hearing of me, despite us coming from very far behind, we beat Kasich and Christie, well-known names, we tied Jeb Bush. And we are leading Ben Carson in the polls here in New Hampshire, we are leading Chris Christie in the polls here in New Hampshire. So I'm not disheartened at all. I'm encouraged. And I think our supporters are incredibly encouraged, which is why they're turning out bigger crowds than we expect every time, cheering because they know this is actually about them. You see, it's not about me. It's not about ABC and the RNC making that stupid choice. It's about the game being rigged against the American people. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Will you... CARLY FIORINA: ...When 80 percent of us think the government is corrupt, what does that tell you? It's Democrats, Independents, Republicans, it's men and women, it's young and old, it's all of us. The truth is it is corrupt, and a professional political class and the media establishment have been playing the game for them, not for the American people. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Will you support the Republican nominee no matter who it is? CARLY FIORINA: I'm going to keep running for this office. I'm running for president. I don't answer theoretical questions. It's crazy to me that the media have decided this race is over. We've have had exactly one caucus. That's all. This race is just beginning, and I'm prepared to leave my trust and confidence in the voters. Let's let people vote. So far, the political establishment and the media establishment don't want to count votes. They think they're smarter than all these voters and that the polls mean more than votes and delegates. I'm prepared to let people vote. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And finally, a pressing question, Mrs. Fiorina, but you said you had dinner and a movie last night with your husband. What movie did you watch? CARLY FIORINA: (Laughter) You know, I watched one of my favorite movies of all time, "Secretariat." RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And so you weren't - we did hear that you were sending out tweets last night from the debate. You didn't sneak away and do a double screen? Like, look at the debate for a little bit and go back to the movie? CARLY FIORINA: I did not. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, thanks so much for talking with us. CARLY FIORINA: Thanks.

Carly Fiorina was the only candidate to be excluded from Saturday's GOP debate. Rachel Martin talks with Fiorina about the debate, and her rationale for staying in the race despite her low numbers.

Carly Fiorina war die einzige Kandidatin, die von der GOP-Debatte am Samstag ausgeschlossen wurde. Rachel Martin spricht mit Fiorina über die Debatte und ihre Beweggründe, trotz niedriger Umfragewerte im Rennen zu bleiben.

卡莉·菲奥莉娜是唯一被排除在周六共和党辩论之外的候选人。瑞秋·马丁与菲奥莉娜谈论了这场辩论，以及她在支持率低的情况下坚持参选的理由。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Republicans have been trying to figure out how to reach new groups of voters since their defeat in the presidential election four years ago. Now some party leaders are saying the GOP should do a better job of addressing the concerns of low-income Americans. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: As NPR's Sarah McCammon reports from Columbia, S.C., several presidential candidates made that point in a forum on poverty yesterday. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: House Speaker Paul Ryan began the day with a traditional Republican message about the American dream. PAUL RYAN: You work hard. You play by the rules. You can get ahead. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: But Ryan said it's not that simple. PAUL RYAN: Here's the problem. If it is not true for everybody (laughter) - and there are a lot of people who do not believe it's there for them - then it's really not true at all, is it? SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Ryan said making that true for everyone should be a priority for the GOP. He co-moderated the event at a packed convention center in Columbia with South Carolina senator Tim Scott, the only black Republican in the U.S. Senate. Scott said there's a perception that Republicans don't understand poverty, but he grew up poor with a single mom. TIM SCOTT: And what I hear in the neighborhoods - and I go see my grandfather every week - is not requests for more government assistance - it's a leg up. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Scott and Ryan were joined on stage by six Republican presidential hopefuls who shared their personal stories, designed to send the message that they get it. BEN CARSON: I hated poverty. MARCO RUBIO: And my father, who was a bartender... CHRIS CHRISTIE: The first time I've learned about poverty was from both my parents. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: That was Dr. Ben Carson, Florida senator Marco Rubio and New Jersey governor Chris Christie. The candidates said they have solutions that don't involve bigger government, like reforming education, adjusting the tax code and getting the private sector more involved. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Hearing Republicans speak of poverty as a priority felt like a turning point to Reverend David Beckmann. He's with the anti-hunger group Bread for the World. DAVID BECKMANN: We've come a long way. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Beckmann's group spoke out against cuts to federal anti-poverty programs proposed by Ryan when he was chairman of the House Budget Committee. DAVID BECKMANN: I think there's still a lot of uncertainty about whether the Republican Party is really going to push to reduce poverty. The people who are here have got to fight other elements in the party that are not that interested in poor people. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: There's a lot at stake in this for the GOP. Since 2012, Republicans have been talking about how to reach more young people and minorities. Christie said Republicans should campaign outside their comfort zone. CHRIS CHRISTIE: Fact is - we need to be going into African-American churches. We need to be going into the Hispanic communities and the barrios to make sure that - you go there first to listen. Don't go there first with some, like, 10-point plan because they don't want to hear it. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: But polls show that reaching those groups is a challenge for the Republican Party. Not present at the poverty forum were two candidates known for their tough rhetoric on immigration, Donald Trump and Texas senator Ted Cruz. Both were busy campaigning in Iowa, where they've been neck and neck at the top of the pack. SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Sarah McCammon, NPR News, Columbia, S.C.

House Speaker Paul Ryan and Sen. Tim Scott hosted a forum in South Carolina Saturday on how Republicans plan to combat poverty. About half of the GOP presidential candidates shared their ideas.

Der Sprecher des Repräsentantenhauses, Paul Ryan, und Senator Tim Scott veranstalteten am Samstag in South Carolina ein Forum über die Pläne der Republikaner zur Armutsbekämpfung. Etwa die Hälfte der GOP-Präsidentschaftskandidaten teilten ihre Ideen.

众议院议长保罗·瑞安和参议员蒂姆·斯科特星期六在南卡罗来纳州举办了一个论坛，讨论共和党人计划如何消除贫困。大约一半的共和党总统候选人分享了他们的想法。

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: One chair will be empty tomorrow as the clerk in the House of Representatives gavels in a new session. That chair belongs to whoever represents North Carolina's 9th District. Problem is, coming up on two months after the November election, we still don't know who that is. The election was held, but there were allegations of election fraud, prompting the state elections board to investigate, but that board was just dissolved. Well, to get us up to speed on what is happening in North Carolina, we're joined by Joe Bruno. He's a reporter with WSOC-TV in Charlotte. Hey there, Joe. JOE BRUNO: Hey there. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So to set the stage here, the Republican candidate, Mark Harris, seemed to have won in November by 905 votes. As I mentioned, there were these allegations of election fraud and questions about mail-in ballots. A big investigation was underway. What is the state of that investigation now? JOE BRUNO: Well, right now, the investigation really is a no man's land because of a court ruling to dissolve the state board of elections. As of right now, there are no board members. And that impacts the investigation dramatically because nobody... MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Yes, it would. JOE BRUNO: ...Can order subpoenas to be issued, among other things, and there would be no board members to sit on an evidentiary hearing scheduled for January 11 next week. So what the governor has said is he's going to appoint an interim board of elections that will serve until the end of the month when a new law that was enacted by the General Assembly takes place, which reforms the board of elections. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: OK. And we should note the board was dissolved for unrelated reasons, right? This had been in the works for a while. There had been litigation involving questions about the makeup of that board. We'll set that bit aside for now. But this hearing that they were supposed to have held on January 11, you're saying that's possible it could still go ahead. JOE BRUNO: It's possible that this meeting could still be held. The new board of elections would be composed of five members - three Democrats, two Republicans. Republicans have said they don't want anything to do with this board. They don't think Governor Cooper has the legal right to form this board, so they are refusing to participate in it. The governor can still appoint three Democrats and have quorum for the meeting. The problem is it takes a fourth person in order for a new election to be called. So it's possible that we could have this hearing on the 11 where all the evidence is laid out but then no action is taken. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: I mean, this sounds just like complete chaos. Have you ever covered anything like this? JOE BRUNO: No. This is complete chaos, and it changes every day and seems like every hour to be honest with you. And then it's possible that the U.S. House could take the findings of whatever the state board determines and incorporate it into whatever decision they make because the U.S. House has the authority to vacate the seat and order a new primary and new election. So it's possible that the state board of elections doesn't order the new election, but the U.S. House then goes ahead and does it. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Is that sounding increasingly like a possibility? JOE BRUNO: We have the incoming majority leader, Steny Hoyer, saying that Mark Harris will not be seated, and the concerns about the seat being vacant are not as heavy as the fact that there was potentially election fraud rampant throughout Bladen and Robeson counties. So it sounds like the incoming Democratic leadership team is certainly trending toward there being a new election. JOE BRUNO: But again, this isn't an easy thing. This isn't just a simple let's order a new election. They're going to have to make sure they investigate this. And it's no easy task, and I'm sure it's no easy decision for them to come to that conclusion. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And meanwhile, what are these two candidates and their camps saying, either Mark Harris on the Republican side or Dan McCready, his Democratic rival? JOE BRUNO: Well, Mark Harris is demanding certification. He still is holding out hope that he will be sworn in as a member of the 116th Congress. Dan McCready, on the other hand, is preparing for the possibility of a new election. Team McCready has been sending out at least one or two emails a day to potential donors. They're already raising money whereas the Harris team is still holding on to hope that a new election will not be needed. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Joe Bruno, a very busy political reporter with WSOC-TV in Charlotte, thanks so much for taking the time. JOE BRUNO: Thank you so much for having me.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly speaks with WSOC-TV reporter Joe Bruno, who has been covering the absentee ballots investigation in the election in Congressional District 9 in Charlotte, N.C.

Mary Louise Kelly von NPR spricht mit dem WSOC-TV-Reporter Joe Bruno, der über die Untersuchung der Briefwahl bei den Wahlen im Kongressbezirk 9 in Charlotte, NC . berichtet hat

NPR的玛丽·路易斯·凯利与WSOC-TV记者乔·布鲁诺交谈。乔·布鲁诺一直在报道北卡罗来纳州夏洛特市国会第9选区选举中的缺失的选票调查。

IRA FLATOW, host: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. What part of your salad looks the most colorful and delicious but really has the least flavor? I'm betting it's your tomato. But you already knew that because tomatoes, unless you buy them locally, are always a disappointment. IRA FLATOW, host: I never really understood the full extent of the reasons why until I read the book written by my next guest, who has made me question every tomato I see from now on, and he has raised some serious questions about how they are grown and picked and what amounts to what he calls slave labor, real slave labor still going on in Florida. IRA FLATOW, host: Barry Estabrook is the author of "Tomatoland: How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit." He joins us from the studios of Iowa Public Radio in Des Moines. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY. BARRY ESTABROOK: Well, thanks for having me. IRA FLATOW, host: What a story you tell here. I mean, and you begin in a wonderful way, by telling the story of a truck you were following on a highway in which you thought you thought Granny Smith apples were falling out. BARRY ESTABROOK: Yeah, it was in southwestern Florida a few years ago, and I was minding my own business, cruising along, and I saw this open-back truck, and it looked like it was loaded, as you said, with green apples. BARRY ESTABROOK: And then I thought to myself wait, wait, apples don't grow in Florida. And as I pulled up behind it, I saw they were tomatoes, a whole truckload mounded over with perfectly green tomatoes, not a shade of pink or red in sight. As we were going along, we came to a construction site, the truck hit a bump, and three or four of these things flew off the truck. BARRY ESTABROOK: They narrowly missed my windshield, but they did hit the pavement. They bounced a few times, and then they rolled onto the shoulder. None of them splattered. None of them even showed cracks. I mean, a modern-day industrial tomato has no problem with falling off a truck at 60 miles an hour on an interstate highway. IRA FLATOW, host: Not to mention how - what it must taste like, besides how it's made, and it's indestructible. And then that started you along the road to investigating how tomatoes are really made and how they're grown. BARRY ESTABROOK: Well, I wondered how you take this fruit that we get this time of year in the farmers market or from our gardens, and it's very difficult to get a tomato from my garden the 25 yards to my kitchen counter without it spontaneously splitting. And how do you get from something as wonderful as that to these potentially lethal projectiles? IRA FLATOW, host: And what you discovered is that first, which is most astounding to me when I read it, is that tomatoes are not supposed to grow in Florida. That's not their natural habitat. And second, in Florida where they're growing, they're growing in sort of pure sand. There's no soil... BARRY ESTABROOK: Well, exactly. It's counterintuitive, I know. I mean the Sunshine State and it's warm. But it's also extremely humid. It's extremely humid year-round, and everything that loves to prey on a tomato, every fungus, every bacteria, every rust, mold, germ, every insect, loves humidity. Tomatoes hate humidity. BARRY ESTABROOK: Their wild ancestors live on the - along the coastal regions of South America, and that's - you know, that's some of the driest desert in the world. And it's why tomatoes do well in places like California and Italy. They love these dry summer days. Florida's humid. That's step one, you're right. BARRY ESTABROOK: And the second thing is, most Florida commercial tomatoes are grown in sand. It's not sandy loam. It's not sandy soil. It's sand, just like you get on Daytona Beach, and it's got the same level of nutrients. Everything that plant needs to survive, to grow, has to be injected into that sand, or you get nothing. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow, and so you wind up with this perfectly formed green tomato that is not being grown for its taste but its indestructibility, as you demonstrated on that highway. And then how does it get turned into something we see in our groceries? BARRY ESTABROOK: Well, these tomatoes are picked by hand. Slicing tomatoes, fresh tomatoes that you buy whole, as opposed to canned tomatoes, are picked by hand. They have to be. They are loaded into one of these vast, huge trucks like the one that nearly did me in, and they're trucked to warehouse-like processing plants where they're washed, waxed, put in cartons, and then the cartons are placed on pallets. BARRY ESTABROOK: And these bright green tomatoes go into warehouse-like buildings where the doors are closed and the processors turn on ethylene gas, and the tomatoes are gassed. Now, ethylene will cause a tomato to turn red. It's actually emitted naturally by the plants in the fields when they want to ripen their fruits. In this case, it's artificial, and even if a tomato is not ripe, it obligingly turns red. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow, and you outline in your book something I have never heard since I watched "The Grapes of Wrath" on television recently, that there are there are foreign workers who are brought in and they are made to be virtual slaves to pick these tomatoes. BARRY ESTABROOK: I'm going to have to take a little bit of an issue with you. Virtual is not a qualifier I would use. Let me run down a couple of quick details: locked up, shackled in chains at night, locked in the back of produce trucks at night so that they're handy to be delivered to the fields in the morning, bought and sold and negotiated for almost at auction. IRA FLATOW, host: Tell the story of the Guatemalan worker as an example. BARRY ESTABROOK: All right. He was a guy who came up here from Guatemala. His folks in Guatemala were both sick. The family had no money. So he took the usual route, came across the border, found his way to this town of Immokalee in southwestern Florida, it's sort of tomato capital during the wintertime. BARRY ESTABROOK: And he was out of work and broke and sort of waiting for something to come along and was sitting on a bench with a few other guys, and this fellow pulls up in a pickup truck and he says: Anyone want work? The Guatemalan fellow said I do. And the guy said great, come on aboard. I pay twice the going rate per bucket of tomatoes. If you don't have a place to stay, we will happily put you up at our place. BARRY ESTABROOK: My mom cooks for our crew. She charges you a bit of money, but she'll cook for you. You know, he thought: wow. He pretty soon realized that, you know, he was put in the back of a produce truck. That was his room and board, and he got charged $50 a week. The food was atrocious, often just dry tortillas. That was $50 a week. BARRY ESTABROOK: Everything came with an exorbitant imaginary price tag. To stand under a cold hose at the end of a day's work was $5, and lo and behold, he found that no matter how hard he worked, he kept falling further and further behind, and he saw what - if people didn't work, they were beaten. Some were hospitalized. BARRY ESTABROOK: They were told that they were now property of this crew leader and his cohorts, and for two and a half years this particular guy worked as a slave. Occasionally they'd give him a $20 bill to, you know, keep his hopes up, but there was no regular pay, and he couldn't leave. And he had no choice of when he worked. IRA FLATOW, host: What do you mean he couldn't leave? BARRY ESTABROOK: Well, as he pointed out, one of his crew finally just couldn't take it anymore and ran away, and one of the crew boss guys chased him in the pickup truck and came back an hour or so later, and the guy was beaten to the point where he was unrecognizable and had to be dropped off at the hospital, and it was - he was permanently injured. He survived but permanently injured. And the crew boss said: You want to try to run away from me? Take a look. IRA FLATOW, host: Is this still going on? BARRY ESTABROOK: Sadly, it's still going on. This is not an isolated case. There have been more than 1,200 people freed from slavery rings in Florida agriculture in the last 10 or 15 years. Off the record an official told me recently that there's two cases currently under investigation. The problem is they're very, very hard cases to prosecute. So what you're seeing is the tip of a really ugly iceberg. IRA FLATOW, host: And what percentage of the tomatoes in supermarkets come from Florida? BARRY ESTABROOK: It depends on the time of year. Right now, none. But during certain periods of the winter, virtually all the tomatoes that you'll see in the supermarket or get in a fast-food restaurant or a sandwich shop will come from Florida. Overall, Florida produces about a third of the fresh tomatoes we eat in the United States. IRA FLATOW, host: You mentioned in your book how California and Florida produce equal amounts of tomatoes, but Florida uses eight times the pesticides as California. BARRY ESTABROOK: Yes, for fresh tomatoes. It's astounding. And that's because of what we talked about earlier. The weather, the climate, is just not right in Florida to grow tomatoes. So they have to wage what amounts to chemical warfare. There's 110 different chemicals in the official Florida guidebook for commercial tomato growers that you can spray on a field over the course of the few months that those tomatoes are in the field, including many that the EPA rates as acutely toxic, which means they can kill you. IRA FLATOW, host: And the workers are exposed to this also, I imagine. BARRY ESTABROOK: You know, Ira, I talked to three or four dozen workers personally, researching the book, and I'd asked that question, I said, have you ever been sprayed? And they'd look at me as if I said, do you put your pants on in the morning. They said, of course, all the time. I said, until like your clothes are wet? And they said, soaked. And then some - and then, you know, the vines are wet if we're not being sprayed directly. So pesticides on workers is a horrific problem. They just spray, it seems, with abandon even though it's illegal. IRA FLATOW, host: Let me go to the phones. 1-800-989-8255. Craig in Fort Myers, Florida. Hi, Craig. CRAIG: Hi. How are you doing? IRA FLATOW, host: Hi, there. CRAIG: Thanks for taking my call. One very brief comment and then another comment. One is that the fast food industry is the designer of these tomatoes. They want tomatoes that are hard and easily - sliced thinly. And a huge percentage of these tomatoes go to the fast food industry. And then, my other comment is about the Coalition of Immokalee Workers, which is an organization, a not-for-profit organization made up mostly of tomato pickers here in southern Florida that works, one, to expose the slavery that goes on among agriculture workers here in southwestern Florida and then also runs boycotts against agencies to try to raise the pay for workers down here. And we've had successful boycotts against most of the fast food restaurants, and we're currently organizing a protest against public supermarkets. IRA FLATOW, host: Well, you know, reading "Tomatoland," Barry Estabrook's book, it's hard to imagine that this really goes on, but you can testify to the fact also. CRAIG: Oh, I've been working in this field for 12 years now. And it goes on all the time, and the conditions for workers are horrific. And we can't leave out the packing companies that are complicit in all of this. And the living conditions - even when they're not shackled, which I know that they are, living conditions - it's not unusual to have 10, 15, 20 workers living in a broken down mobile home. Each of the - each of them paying $200 a month in rent. IRA FLATOW, host: And this is taken out before - this is taken out before they even get paid, so this is deducted from (unintelligible). CRAIG: Well, perhaps. In some cases, yes and in other cases no, because there's very few landlords (unintelligible) - most of the rental living spaces in and around the tomato fields are owned by a handful of people, often by the packing companies. So even if it's, quote, unquote, you know, "not on the - in the fields," you know, they're paying $2,000 a month rent for a broken down mobile home, which you can get, hopefully, get 15 or 20 people into. And I can go on and on, of course. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. Thanks for calling. Interesting stuff. Barry, it jibes with what you're saying in your book. BARRY ESTABROOK: Well, yes. I mean, and the Coalition of Immokalee Workers, which Craig referred to, has, you know, it started out as, really, a ragtag crew of workers who just meet in a church basement, and often they just get 10 guys together to dun a reluctant crew boss and maybe slow-paying some of his workers. Now, they're a very formidable force that has won tremendous victories for the workers. They've completely turned around the way the companies relate to workers. Just in the last year, in fact, this fall, the tomato industry could look very different. There's a way to solve a lot of the problems that we talked about. The machinery is in place. How it gets used, we'll see in the coming months. IRA FLATOW, host: We're talking with Barry Estabrook, author of "Tomatoland: How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit" on SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow, talking with - well, we thought we would start out talking about the magnificence of tomatoes. And you had no idea that you would find any in (unintelligible), I'm sure, Barry. BARRY ESTABROOK: Well, I was a food writer and had been covering the flavor issue for years. But, you know, to be honest, the workers were invisible to me. I think that's tell-tale of food journalism in general at that time. It was only in the last - it was only when these slavery cases started getting made public that I realized, wait, the problem goes way beyond a not particularly good tasting winter tomato. There's a real deep problem here with the way we grow these things. IRA FLATOW, host: We - yeah. And is it changing? Do you see any change? I mean, this is the 21st century, you know? BARRY ESTABROOK: I see a lot of - these Coalition of Immokalee Workers has implemented a fair food agreement, which gets more money to the workers and some basic education issues, some basic grievance procedures, some startling innovations that, you know, like something called the punch clock, which didn't exist before in the tomato business. Another startling thing - little tents, so you can get a bit of shade in these fields for your breaks or lunch or if you get fatigue. So, yeah, it's - this progress has been made, but it is still probably the crummiest job you can get in the United States legally. IRA FLATOW, host: Mm-hmm. Let's - in a few minutes we have left, let's talk a little bit about tomatoes themselves. I mean, you're a flavor reviewer, food reviewer. The tomato flavor is unique itself - in itself, is it not? BARRY ESTABROOK: You know, it's - the tomato flavor is so complex, it's almost like a fine wine when you think about it. For example, if you are a plant breeder wanting to breed a banana, for whatever reason, if you got one chemical, one signature chemical into your new breed of banana, everyone would taste it and recognize it as a pretty good banana. Same with strawberries, one chemical. With tomatoes, there's a balance of citric acid, malic acid and fructose, and then there's probably 19 or 20 different chemical, aromatic chemicals - chemicals you can smell, which means chemicals you can taste - that have to go in there, and none of them bear any resemblance to a tomato. I've... IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. BARRY ESTABROOK: ...sat in a laboratory at University of Florida. You'll smell roses, Juicy Fruit gum, cut grass. But when they're mixed together, you get that unique tomato taste. So that - that's what makes it so hard to breed for a tasty tomato. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. 1-800-989-8255 is our number. We're talking with Barry Estabrook, author of "Tomatoland: How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit." We're going to take a short break. We'll come back, talk a little bit more with Barry and take your questions, and 1-800-989-8255. You can tweet us, @scifri, @S-C-I-F-R-I. Tell us what you like about tomatoes or don't like. Stay with us. We'll be right back after this break. I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. IRA FLATOW, host: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow, talking with Barry Estabrook, author of "Tomatoland: How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit." On the phone with us right now is Luis CdeBaca of the State Department. He's ambassador-at-large, Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY. LUIS CDEBACA: Good to be here. IRA FLATOW, host: What is the State Department doing to combat this trafficking in humans? LUIS CDEBACA: Well, one of the things that's important for the Obama administration is to make sure that if we're looking at food - just as what we've seen with what Mr. Estabrook did in his book - is that food security is not simply having enough or having stuff that tastes good or gets to the market. No food can truly be secure if the people that picked it were enslaved when they were doing it. LUIS CDEBACA: So we're trying to get the word out. We're ranking other countries on how they're doing. And for the first time, we've actually been shining the light on the situation here in the United States. And, unfortunately, as he found in his book, there still is modern slavery right here in our own backyards. IRA FLATOW, host: Mm-hmm. And can the State Department do anything about it? LUIS CDEBACA: Well, one of the things that we're doing is - Secretary Clinton is the chair of the Interagency Cabinet Task Force, and we've stepped up enforcement around the country, with new task forces at the U.S. attorneys' offices. But even more, I think, that you'll be seeing us do some work in the next year to try to help consumers be able to look at their own, for lack of a better word, slavery footprint, much like you can look at your carbon footprint. But right now you can't really necessarily tell. Are these tomatoes? Is this cocoa? Are these fish that I'm eating? You know, what is my own slavery footprint when I'm looking at this as a consumer? IRA FLATOW, host: So if I'm buying a tomato, I can know if it's made by slaves or not. LUIS CDEBACA: Well, and I think that - you know, one of the things is that the organizations like the Coalition of Immokalee Workers and others have helped get the companies to care. But a company is not - won't necessarily care about their supply chain until they know that the consumers care about their supply chain. So it's not just insisting that it can pack and it can go a long way, but it was also picked and packed in a humane and respectful manner. IRA FLATOW, host: Thank you very much, Mr. CdeBaca, for joining us today. LUIS CDEBACA: Good to be here. Thank you. IRA FLATOW, host: You're welcome. Luis CdeBaca of the U.S. Department of State, office - he's an ambassador-at-large at the Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Person. With me also, as I say, is Barry Estabrook, author of "Tomatoland." Barry, any - have you talked to them before? Any reaction? BARRY ESTABROOK: I haven't talked to the State Department, but I have talked to many law enforcement officers in southwestern Florida who've been - the frontlines in these slavery prosecutions. And I have to say, refreshingly forthcoming. I - as a reporter, you know, often lawyers and policemen are, you know, closemouthed. These guys, I have the feeling that they take their job personally. It's a horrific crime. BARRY ESTABROOK: You know, all these people do is want to come and work. They're willing to do - you know, they're desperate and they want to work. They don't want to panhandle. They want to work, and they end up as slaves. BARRY ESTABROOK: And so, tremendous cooperation from Douglas Molloy, who's the U.S. attorney for the - that district of Florida. Tremendous cooperation from the Collier County, Florida, police department - Charlie Frost down there. Unprecedented because this is a type of crime, they all tell me, that withers in the light of publicity. It can't stand it. No one wants to have conditions that existed in 1850 happening right now, you know, in Florida or anywhere in the United States. So... IRA FLATOW, host: Well, Barry - well, maybe your book "Tomatoland" becomes the new "Grapes of Wrath." So... BARRY ESTABROOK: Well... IRA FLATOW, host: So we wish - you know, you and Steinbeck. We wish you good luck. Thank you for taking time to be with us today. "Tomatoland:" - it will change the way you look at tomatoes, written by Barry Estabrook, "How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit."

In his book Tomatoland: How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit, Barry Estabrook writes of perfectly round, orangish supermarket tomatoes—grown largely in Florida—and how the migrants who pick them are sometimes bound into modern slavery by farm bosses.

In seinem Buch Tomatoland: How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit schreibt Barry Estabrook über perfekt runde, orangefarbene Supermarkttomaten, die größtenteils in Florida angebaut werden, und darüber, wie die Migranten, die sie pflücken, manchmal von Farmchefs in moderne Sklaverei gezwungen werden.

巴里·埃斯塔布鲁克在他的书《番茄之地：现代工业化农业如何摧毁了我们最诱人的水果》中描写了超市里完美的圆圆的橙色番茄（主要种植地在佛罗里达州）以及采摘它们的移民是如何不时地被农场老板剥削，成为现代奴隶的。

DON GONYEA, HOST: We wanted to get a sense of the broad effects of the federal government shutdown, so we've gathered tape from across the country. JENNIFER WILSON: They said you can't get inside because of this situation. I was, like, no, what am I going to do? DON GONYEA, HOST: That's Jennifer Wilson (ph), a fourth-grade teacher from Port St. Lucie, Fla. She drove all the way to the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site in Atlanta this week only to find it closed. JENNIFER WILSON: So when I got here, I wanted to cry. DON GONYEA, HOST: But of course, it's not just tourists being affected by the shutdown. Hundreds of thousands of federal workers are in limbo, including Sharon Stiteler, a park ranger for the Mississippi National River and Recreation Area. Like the other federal workers we talked to, she speaks for herself, not her employer. SHARON STITELER: Whether or not I go back to work is someone else's decision. DON GONYEA, HOST: She's been through four government shutdowns. SHARON STITELER: Sometimes at 2:00 a.m., I might have a bit of a panic attack that, you know, I'm not a useful contributor to my household. And, my goodness, maybe I should not have bought, you know, the more expensive lettuce today. Who knows how much longer the shutdown's going to last? ERNIE JOHNSON: You know, I'm not over here kicking it on the beach, drinking pina coladas. DON GONYEA, HOST: That's Ernie Johnson. He's a geologist with the Bureau of Land Management. He says that for many workers who don't have a backup fund, the shutdown means stressing about bills and finding ways to make ends meet. He's considering moving out of his home and onto a friend's couch. ERNIE JOHNSON: I'm just looking at the reality that, you know, I may not be able to pay rent. DON GONYEA, HOST: He's not alone. Julie Burr, an administrative assistant in the Department of Transportation, is a single mom. She's keeping busy at a second job she picked up to see her family through the shutdown. JULIE BURR: That's only about 25 percent of my pay that I make at my federal job, so it's not going to pay all of my bills, obviously. DON GONYEA, HOST: She's a contractor, so even if other federal workers are granted back pay after the shutdown, she is unlikely to see any of that money. JULIE BURR: I guess the drastic thing would be to start taking back Christmas gifts or, you know, maybe selling things. I don't know. I hope it doesn't come to that. DON GONYEA, HOST: That's a worst-case scenario. But since they don't know how long they'll be without work, federal workers like Ernie Johnson are planning for the worst. ERNIE JOHNSON: So, you know, I have my contingency plans. And, right now, everything is budgeted, you know, kind of through the end of the month. But now it's just a matter of a wait game.

As the federal government shutdown enters its second week, workers across the country are starting to feel its impact.

Während die Schließung der Bundesregierung in die zweite Woche geht, beginnen die Arbeitnehmer im ganzen Land die Auswirkungen zu spüren.

随着联邦政府停摆进入第二周，全国各地的工人开始感受到它的影响。

DAVID GREENE, HOST: This is a day when we could - could - get some more insight into the Justice Department's Russia investigation. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Robert Mueller has a deadline today to explain how former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort violated his plea agreement. Mueller must also file a memo recommending sentencing guidelines for Michael Cohen, who was once the president's personal lawyer. And former FBI Director James Comey will speak to the House judiciary committee about how the FBI handled the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails. And a former Trump adviser gets out of jail. DAVID GREENE, HOST: So many names, so many developments. And NPR political reporter Tim Mak is here. He's been following all of this. Hey, Tim. TIM MAK, BYLINE: Hey there. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Let's start with Manafort. I mean, last week, the special counsel's office said Manafort repeatedly lied to prosecutors since he'd agreed to cooperate, which they say violated a plea deal. What exactly might we see today? TIM MAK, BYLINE: So Manafort pleaded guilty last month on charges related to his lobbying work for Ukraine and alleged witness tampering. And as part of that plea agreement, he pledged to cooperate both fully and truthfully with federal investigators. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Truthfully being a key word here. TIM MAK, BYLINE: Absolutely. Last week, we learned from the special counsel's office that they believed that Manafort had repeatedly lied after pledging to cooperate. And today's the deadline for the Mueller team to tell a federal court in D.C. exactly how he did so, how he allegedly violated his plea agreement for lying. It's worth also noting here that Manafort's lawyers say he has only provided what he believes to be truthful information. DAVID GREENE, HOST: What he believed to be truthful information. TIM MAK, BYLINE: That's right. DAVID GREENE, HOST: I mean, important language there, as well. OK. So then we have Michael Cohen, the president's former personal lawyer who seems to have taken the opposite approach to the special counsel. I mean, he admitted he lied to Congress and says he's cooperating fully. What exactly is happening when it comes to him today? TIM MAK, BYLINE: So on the Cohen front, he pleaded guilty to lying to Congress about efforts well into 2016 to build a Trump Tower in Moscow. He said he lied for two reasons - to minimize links between the Moscow project and Trump and to give the, quote, "false impression" that the project ended before the GOP primaries began. So his plea agreement suggests that he has met with the special counsel's office at least seven times. And Mueller's office is expected to today file a memo with its recommendations for Cohen's sentencing. So if the special counsel says it believes that the sentencing should be lenient, as it did earlier this week for Michael Flynn, that would suggest that they believe Cohen has been a helpful witness. DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK. Then you have, also, Michael Flynn, the president's former national security adviser who the special counsel is now saying deserves no jail time because he's been so very helpful. I mean, could the special counsel have been getting a lot out of Flynn that could tell us what they might be doing to pressure Manafort and Cohen? Could it all be related? TIM MAK, BYLINE: Well, so Michael Flynn has, according to the special counsel's office, provided substantive and helpful information. That's why they suggested he deserves no jail time. But the special counsel's office has been so opaque about this matter and so many other issues. We just don't know the specifics about what he provided information on. The justification that Mueller's team has given about why Flynn deserves no jail time has been largely redacted. So we don't know exactly what he provided information about. DAVID GREENE, HOST: And then worth noting - big development, as well, on the Hill - we have former FBI Director Jim Comey, who's going to be testifying behind closed doors to some lawmakers. TIM MAK, BYLINE: Right. So this is, of course, not his first interview before Congress. But it may be one of the last efforts by a Republican-led investigations into the House - sorry - Republican-led investigations in the House into decisions made in 2016 by the FBI and the Justice Department. Of course, Democrats take control of the House in January. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Which could really change the dynamic of some of those investigations. NPR's Tim Mak. Thanks so much, Tim. TIM MAK, BYLINE: Thanks a lot. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Two events on the same day highlighted U.S. tensions with China. Last weekend, President Trump had dinner with China's president. They agreed to a 90-day pause in an escalating trade war. Also last weekend, Canada arrested a Chinese tech executive for possible extradition to the United States. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: We discussed both of those events with national security adviser John Bolton. President Trump's national security adviser did not say exactly what the tech executive, Meng Wanzhou, is accused of. Bolton did say that her company Huawei, which makes smartphones, is implicated in some of the same broad concerns the U.S. is raising in trade talks. JOHN BOLTON: We've had enormous concern for years about the - in this country about the practice of Chinese firms to use stolen American intellectual property to engage in forced technology transfers and to be used, really, as arms of the Chinese government's objectives in terms of information technology in particular. So not respecting this particular arrest, but Huawei's one company we've been concerned about. There are others, as well. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So that's the arrest. That dinner in Buenos Aires led to a 90-day pause before President Trump increases tariffs on China again. And Bolton raised the hope that if in that time, China agrees to more fully open its economy, that could fundamentally change China. JOHN BOLTON: Well, I think what we're going to do, beginning in the next 90 days, as President Trump and President Xi agreed, is see if we can address some of these structural issues in China's economy. I think that would have potentially profound impact on their political structure, as well. That's not what we're aiming at. But if the theory is correct, we'll see what flows from it. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Rob Schmitz is following all of this from Shanghai, China. Hey there, Rob. ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Good morning, Steve. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Do Chinese officials see this arrest as somehow part of the trade talks, since they happened at the same time? ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Well, it's interesting. Beijing's response, initially, was urging Canada to release Meng Wanzhou, calling her arrest a human rights violation. And the state media has sort of followed that narrative today by publishing several articles about the U.S. acting like a hooligan by arresting this Huawei executive without being clear about the charges. But today, there's been a bit of a change. Both China's Commerce Ministry and the Foreign Ministry made comments that seemed to separate the arrest of Meng from the ongoing negotiations with the U.S. to try and put an end to the trade war. It seems now that China's government's trying to make sure this incident with Huawei doesn't jeopardize a possible solution to the trade war. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Keeping them on separate tracks, if they can. ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Right. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So we heard John Bolton there suggesting that a more genuine economic opening by China could also somehow crack open their political system. There would be a profound impact on their political structure - are his words. Do you see any Chinese willingness to make those kinds of dramatic changes? ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: I think this is a hard sell for China. You know, they're reluctant to make the structural changes the Trump administration is asking for because doing so would mean the state sector losing money to the private sector. And in the end, that's a net loss for China's Communist Party both in capital terms and in terms of power. You know, the party is scared that changes that Trump is asking of China to open its markets to more outside competition would water down its own power over the markets and over the country. And that's a tough sell. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, given that, are Chinese officials bracing for the possibility these talks don't work and U.S. tariffs go up again? ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Yeah. We've seen a lot of that lately. Xi Jinping has made a lot of speeches about being self-reliant to both Chinese companies and to the Chinese people. So I think that this urging of China to rely more on itself is becoming clear that China is not always going to have a tight relationship with the U.S. going forward. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Rob Schmitz, thanks. ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Thanks. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Paris is bracing for possibly more violence over this weekend. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Yeah. The Yellow Vest movement, as it's been called, started over a fuel tax hike. President Emmanuel Macron agreed not to impose that tax in the face of protests. But the movement has called for another demonstration, which would be its fourth in the French capital. Protests have been violent, with cars burned and property damaged. And Macron does not seem to be able to get this movement to stop. DAVID GREENE, HOST: And let's turn to NPR's correspondent in Paris, Eleanor Beardsley. Hi, Eleanor. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Good morning, guys. DAVID GREENE, HOST: So what exactly is happening here? It sounded like the president was taking some of the actions that one might have thought could've calmed this down. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Right. Right. Right. You would think so. Well, let me just tell you there's an ominous feeling in Paris today as people prepare for the possibility of violence. You know, a lot of museums like the Louvre and shops will be closed tomorrow - the Eiffel Tower. Parisians are being told to stay off the streets. There's going to be 8,000 riot police in the capital and gendarmes in military armored vehicles. You know, for us laymen those things look like tanks, sort of. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Wow. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Yeah. So I was out yesterday near the Arc de Triomphe on a big avenue. And a lot of shops and cafes are putting up plywood on windows. And they're planning to close. It almost felt like they were preparing for a hurricane coming. And I spoke with Gerry Staps (ph), who runs an expensive jackets and boots store. He was looted last week. And here's what he told me. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Do you think this week is going to be bad? GERRY STAPS: Very bad. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Worse than last week? GERRY STAPS: Yeah. Yeah. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Why? GERRY STAPS: Because they have some time to prepare. You know, every week, they prepare. That's why every week, you have more and more and more people who want to break. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: So he says break. He means smash. He's talking about this - not the Yellow Vest protesters but groups of hooligans known as casseurs, or smashers. These are violent groups - extremist groups from, like, the far left, the far right - anarchists. And they love to come out when there's protests and glom onto them and just fight with police. So there's a big distinction between them and the Yellow Vest protesters. But those are the two things going on - fear of these guys. And the movement continues. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Well, the movement continuing - what exactly is the message right now as this movement heads into this weekend? ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Well, listen to this, David. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Now, I was out yesterday in the north of France. You can hear it. These are the Yellow Vest protesters. They've occupied a roundabout out in the countryside. They had a bonfire, a Christmas tree. And they say they're not surviving. There's too many taxes on them. And I spoke to Corinne Ryckaert (ph). She's 45 years old. And she's - like many, she cannot stand the French president, Emmanuel Macron. She says he's arrogant and completely out of touch with their problems. Here she is. CORVIN RICOUER: (Speaking French). ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: So she says he's president of the very rich. She talks about he - how he scrapped a tax on the wealthy, while, at the same time, he put another tax on them, this environment tax on, she says, the little people like us. And she says, you know, planes and cruise ships pollute the environment a lot more than their little cars do. So that's what's happening out there. DAVID GREENE, HOST: So they're saying that they're overtaxed. But didn't the president back down on this gas tax, which began the protest movement? So why not stop? ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: Yeah, you're right. He did. But it's too little too late. And now, David, they have a whole list of demands. They want a raise in the minimum wage, a boost to their purchasing power. Some even want to dissolve the Parliament. I doubt that's going to happen. But they've become a national sensation - 70 percent of the French support them. And the government really needs to end these weekly protests because of the possibility of violence. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. Really bracing for more violence in Paris - will be a weekend that we need to follow. NPR's Eleanor Beardsley in Paris for us this morning. Eleanor, thanks so much. ELEANOR BEARDSLEY, BYLINE: You're welcome.

Robert Mueller faces 2 deadlines regarding ex-Trump associates. Tensions continue after the U.S. requested the arrest of a Chinese executive. France's yellow vest movement demands more concessions.

Robert Mueller hat zwei Fristen für Ex-Trump-Mitarbeiter. Die Spannungen gehen weiter, nachdem die USA die Verhaftung einer chinesischen Führungskraft beantragt haben. Frankreichs Gelbwesten-Bewegung fordert mehr Zugeständnisse.

罗伯特·穆勒面临2个关于前特朗普时期同事的最后期限。在美国要求逮捕一名中国高管后，紧张局势仍在继续。法国的黄背心运动要求更多的让步。

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Back in 2012, Donald Trump, who was then a private citizen, wrote a tweet mocking President Obama. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The tweet said, quote, "three chiefs of staff in less than three years of being president, part of the reason why Barack Obama can't manage to pass his agenda." STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: His critics are missing no chance to repeat those words as President Trump prepares to choose his third chief of staff in less than two years. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The president is also on his third national security adviser... STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: His second press secretary... RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: His second secretary of state, and he just nominated a second attorney general. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: How much does any of this really matter? Kathryn Dunn Tenpas is here. She's at the Brookings Institution, where she studies White House staffing. Thanks for coming by. Good morning. KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: Thank you for having me. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: First, is this an unusual amount of turnover? I mean, as Trump's tweet from years ago points out, chiefs of staff come and go. KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: It is an unusual level of turnover. The position of chief of staff was created under Harry Truman. And since then, 10 presidents have created that position and utilized it. Of those ten, only three have had turnover, and that turnover was not until the second year. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Second term, you mean? KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: No, the second year of the first term. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, OK. KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: Right. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Go on. KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: So President Trump being on his third chief of staff in less than two years is truly unprecedented. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And how does that affect the workings of the White House - or more to the point of what the country cares about, presidential decisions? KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: Right. Well, I would argue that the position of chief of staff is the absolutely most important position in the executive branch. You might even go as far as to say that it's the most influential unelected position in our government. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Why? KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: They make all the critical decisions. They make sure that the train's on time. They set the tone within the White House. They set the tone of decorum. They help the president advance his agenda, either working through Congress or through interest groups and various other entities. And they are just simply critical to the success of a White House. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: I'm remembering a thing that John Kelly tried to do early in his tenure as chief of staff - was limit the number of people who got in to see the president, which was not limiting his information in any way but trying to make sure that he was getting reasonable information from people with reasonable access and that people weren't going around the system. KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: Exactly. They're often referred to as the gatekeeper. And you might recall that in the beginning of the Clinton administration, it was a rocky start. And Clinton was characterized as sort of not being disciplined, and too many people had access to him. So after about 14 months or so, Mack McLarty exited, and Leon Panetta came in. And he sort of instilled a sense of discipline. And one of his chief roles in order to do that was to be the gatekeeper and to control the access to the president. I think in the case of President Trump, John Kelly tried to do that. But not only was he unsuccessful, the president kind of worked around him. And that basically - you know, it sort of defeats the purpose of having a chief of staff if you're going to work around him. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The president has been fairly explicit about that, right? He wants to keep his own phone. He wants to have it in hand. He wants to call friends. He wants to get advice from many different places, which in theory sounds like a good idea, isn't it? KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: Well, not necessarily. As you might imagine, the president has vast responsibilities. His time is his most important resource. And so you really have to sort of be careful about how you allot that time and not let just anybody who wants the president's ear come in and talk to him. He has to keep on a schedule. He has to keep very disciplined in order to accomplish the many things that he has to accomplish. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: We hear about the top figures - the prominent figures coming and going. But isn't there a career White House staff of several hundred people? Some of them have been there for many, many years. Others are career government professionals who rotate in and out. And they're just there working the whole time, aren't they? KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: There are. But they tend to be at much lower levels in the terms of seniority. And so while they are there to keep the trains running on time to some extent and to make sure presidents sign the bills and the bill goes to Congress and all those formalities, they are not the ones making the day-to-day decisions. And so it's the president's closest aides, whom he confides in and whom he trusts, that he allows to have influence over his decisions. It's not the career people. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Do you think that John Kelly in the end was effective in that role of chief of staff - of making the trains run on time? Whether you agree with the policies or not, did he do his job well? KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: I think he tried to at the beginning. I think the president undermined him. You know, in many ways, President Trump has the position of chief of staff, but the job description is nothing like it has been in prior administrations. So while John Kelly did the best he could - and early on, it seems as though he was firing people whom he deemed to be not sort of playing by the rules and things like that - but over time, the president undermined him and found ways around his chief of staff, which basically emasculated the position. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, suppose the president were to make one of those many phone calls to you and say, OK, listen. I heard you on the radio. You sound like you're really smart. You know what you're doing about these White House staffing matters. What kind of chief of staff should I hire? What would you tell him? KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: Well, interestingly because it's almost 2019, the next focus of the White House is on the reelection campaign. And I've actually studied reelection campaigns and how presidents simultaneously meet the demands of governing and reelection. And what you find is actually there is a small amount of staff shuffling in senior positions where they bring in people with more political acumen - people who understand the presidential campaign environment. So I think he definitely needs somebody with a background in politics, especially presidential electoral politics. In addition to that, I think President Trump has to, you know, obtain the ability if he can to delegate authority to this individual and let the individual sort of be a gatekeeper. I think it would be in his best interests. I'm not sure if he personally has sort of the self-discipline to do it, but I absolutely think it would be in his best interests. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Yeah, you're telling him to be a different type of person than he likes to be. KATHRYN DUNN TENPAS: To some extent. But if you think - if you go back to President Clinton again and that example, it was a rocky start. President Clinton was all over the place. He brought in Leon Panetta. And he listened to Leon Panetta. And he let him do his work. And the remaining years - he won reelection, and the remaining years were much more successful, I would argue. STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Kathryn Dunn Tenpas, thanks so much. You're welcome.

White House Chief of Staff John Kelly announced he's leaving the Trump administration. Steve Inskeep talks to Kathryn Dunn Tenpas of the Brookings Institution, who studies White House staffing.

Der Stabschef des Weißen Hauses, John Kelly, hat angekündigt, die Trump-Administration zu verlassen. Steve Inskeep spricht mit Kathryn Dunn Tenpas von der Brookings Institution, die sich mit der Personalausstattung im Weißen Haus beschäftigt.

白宫办公厅主任约翰·凯利宣布他将离开特朗普政府。史蒂夫·因斯基普采访了布鲁金斯学会的凯瑟琳·邓恩·滕帕斯，她研究白宫的人员配置。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Imagine for a moment it's 1925 instead of 2016. And you're living in a stately English manor. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yes, of course, it's "Downton Abbey." The hit series about aristocrats and their servants begins its last season on PBS tonight. NPR TV critic Eric Deggans has this review. And a heads up, there are no spoilers here. But there are details about the new season. ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: For six seasons "Downton Abbey" has played a sly game, making its characters fret over social changes the TV audience knows will turn out well. The series, set in a stately English manor in the first decades of the 1900s, often worries over issues like premarital sex or women in the workplace. And this stuff can seem a little silly to modern ears. On tonight's episode, Lord Grantham discusses the size of the staff with the butler who runs his household, Mr. Carson. JIM CARTER: (As Charles Carson) I must ask you to remember, my Lord, that there were six footmen when I first came here and five house maids. No we've got two of each and no kitchen maids at all. We must run this place as it should be run. HUGH BONNEVILLE: (As Robert Crawley) I'm not asking you to wield a scythe. But, I mean, who has an under-butler these days? ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: Who indeed. In another scene, housekeeper Elsie Hughes is worried about her upcoming marriage to Mr. Carson. In a talk with Downton's cook, Mrs. Patmore, Hughes reveals concerns about completing her wifely duties. PHYLLIS LOGAN: (As Elsie Hughes) I hadn't fully considered all the aspects of marriage. LESLEY NICOL: (As Beryl Patmore) I don't understand. What aspects? Oh, my lord. You mean... PHYLLIS LOGAN: (As Elsie Hughes) Yes. ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: That leads to a wonderful bit of comedy as the women struggle to talk about sex with Mr. Carson, who holds the undisputed title as Downton's stuffiest shirt. But it also highlights the secret sauce that makes "Downton Abbey" so popular. Each season, as the characters wring their hands over a new trend, they echo what people fear today, that more permissive modern attitudes will eat away at traditional values. "Downton Abbey's" final season also offers scenes die-hard fans have been waiting for. Here, the often bullying Lady Mary finally has the argument with her doughty sister Edith that has been brewing for years. As Mary tries to apologize for a seriously cruel action, Edith tells her off. LAURA CARMICHAEL: (As Edith Crawley) Who do you think you're talking to? I know you. I know you to be a nasty, jealous, scheming [expletive]. MICHELLE DOCKERY: (As Mary Crawley) Now, listen, you pathetic... LAURA CARMICHAEL: (As Edith Crawley) You're a [expletive]. ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: But Mary, who's torn over a possible romance, also finds comfort in a talk with her grandmother, the usually sarcastic dowager countess of Grantham, played by Maggie Smith. MAGGIE SMITH: (As Violet Crawley) You are the only woman I know who likes to think herself cold and selfish and grand. Most of us spend our lives trying to hide it. MICHELLE DOCKERY: (As Mary Crawley) Oh, granny, please don't lecture me on sentimental virtues. MAGGIE SMITH: (As Violet Crawley) Don't worry; don't worry. I believe in rules. But there is something else. I believe in love. ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: "Downton Abbey" is, at its heart, a meticulously crafted soap opera. But its faults are often tied up in that very same soap opera formula. It's slow. It's repetitive. It's predictable. And the larger question, whether the idle rich are exploiting their working-class servants, is never really resolved. British TV has already aired the final season. So be warned, spoilers abound online. And the familiarity of the stories here is a telling sign. After six seasons, it's about time for "Downton Abbey" to close its doors for the last time. I'm Eric Deggans.

And it's about time the mansion closed its doors for the last time, says reviewer Eric Deggans.

Und es ist an der Zeit, dass die Villa zum letzten Mal ihre Türen schließt, sagt Rezensent Eric Deggans.

评论员埃里克·德甘斯透露，现在是这栋大厦最后一次关门的时候了。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We are going to shift our attention now to another country where women are pushing against cultural convention. If you're a married couple in Japan, you are required by law to have the same last name. Critics who say the law is sexist had been trying to get it overturned. But this past week, Japan's Supreme Court upheld the law that they say reflects an important part of Japanese culture. NPR's Elise Hu has been watching the story unfold from her base in Seoul. And she joins me now. Hey, Elise. ELISE HU, BYLINE: Hey there, good morning. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Just to recap, married couples have to have the same name. But that doesn't preclude men from changing their names to the women's name, right? But presumably, that's not going to happen. This is about requiring women to change their name. ELISE HU, BYLINE: That's right. This law was enacted more than a hundred years ago as part of a pretty feudal family system. The family name essentially had to be the same because women and children came under the control of a male head of household. So that's why it requires Japanese couples to choose a single last name. The law itself doesn't specify whether it has to be the husband's name or the wife's. But The Japan Times actually points out that in the last 40 years, 96 percent of Japanese couples opt for the husband's last name. I actually do happen to have a source, Ito-san, whose husband took her last name. But as the numbers show, it's really quite rare. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah. So who brought the suit forward? And this is something that's been around for a long time, so why now? ELISE HU, BYLINE: Well, three separate women brought this case on the grounds that this law just infringes on personal dignity. One plaintiff made a pretty emotional argument actually after the ruling came down that her name really isn't something she should give up because it's a huge part of her identity. She was quite emotional after losing this case. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We said in the intro - and you pointed out - that the court said this law can't be changed because it's an integral part of Japanese culture. What does that mean? ELISE HU, BYLINE: Yeah, the chief justice actually wrote in upholding this law that the practice is, quote, "deeply rooted in Japanese society." And critics say that's actually the problem because Japan's facing this gut check when it comes to the role of women in its society. You have Prime Minister Shinzo Abe recognizing this. He made something called womenomics (ph) which is essentially trying to encourage more women to enter the workforce as part of his signature economic strategy, which you might have heard about, Abenomics (ph). That has helped get more women working in Japan but not more women in leadership positions. In fact, just last week, the Gender Equality Bureau in Tokyo came out with a new target for women in leadership roles. Originally, under Abenomics, that goal was to get 30 percent women representation in management positions. Realizing that they couldn't hit that target, that target has now been slashed to 7 percent. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Wow, big change. NPR's Elise Hu, reporting from Seoul, South Korea. Thanks so much, Elise. ELISE HU, BYLINE: You bet.

Japan's supreme court upheld a law from more than 100 years ago that requires married couples to have the same last name. NPR's Rachel Martin speaks with NPR's Elise Hu about reaction to the decision.

Japans oberster Gerichtshof hat ein mehr als 100 Jahre altes Gesetz bestätigt, das von verheirateten Paaren verlangt, denselben Nachnamen zu tragen. NPR-Mitarbeiterin Rachel Martin spricht mit NPR-Mitarbeiterin Elise Hu über die Reaktion auf diese Entscheidung.

日本最高法院维持了一项有100多年历史的法律，要求已婚夫妇必须同姓。NPR的雷切尔·马丁与胡伊莉斯就这一决定激起的反应进行了交谈。

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. The president hits the heartland in an armored bus, Bachmann knocks out T-Paw, and Rick Perry cries treason. It's Wednesday and time for a... UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It's pretty ugly... NEAL CONAN, host: Edition of the Political Junkie. President RONALD REAGAN: There you go again. WALTER MONDALE: When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad: Where's the beef? BARRY GOLDWATER: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. LLOYD BENTSEN: Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy. President RICHARD NIXON: You don't have Nixon to kick around anymore. SARAH PALIN: Lipstick. President GEORGE BUSH: But I'm the decider. NEAL CONAN, host: Every Wednesday, political junkie Ken Rudin joins us to recap the week in politics. He's bobbing the waves on vacation. So we turn again to NPR senior Washington editor Ron Elving. The weekend produced one winner, one dropout and one fresh face in the GOP presidential field: Bachmann, Pawlenty and Perry, respectively. NEAL CONAN, host: The president followed the GOP to Iowa as his re-election campaign starts to roll. Call us and tell us about the president's strengths and weaknesses as a candidate. The phone number 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. And recall summer ends in Wisconsin, and redistricting battles heat up. NEAL CONAN, host: In a few moments, we'll speak with Washington Post columnist Michael Gerson about electability, political purity and the Republican base. Later in the program, John Sayles on his new film set in America's war in the Philippines, "Amigo." NEAL CONAN, host: But first, guest political junkie Ron Elving joins us here in Studio 3A. And Ron, nice to have you back. RON ELVING: Pleasure to be with you, Neal. NEAL CONAN, host: And we start with actual votes when we've got them, and we have a final tally in Wisconsin, where overall, nine state senators faced recall elections. RON ELVING: That's right. Yesterday, two Democratic senators, state senators, were facing recalls, and Jim Holperin, up in the northeastern district, the 12th Senate District, was re-elected. And Robert Wirch, down in the southeastern corner of the state, down near Kenosha and Pleasant Prairie, he got re-elected, as well. RON ELVING: Now, Wirch didn't really have too much trouble. He got almost 60 percent of the vote. But the Jim Holperin vote over Kim Samac was a tight one. It came down to just a little over 50 percent for the incumbent. RON ELVING: But where that leaves us is that since a week ago, the Republicans won four out of those contests, the six contests for Republican seats. They held onto their margin. RON ELVING: It is what you might call - and this is the cliche - a razor thin margin. It went from 19 to 14 seats for the Republicans in the state Senate to just 17-16, the minimum. NEAL CONAN, host: And what message does it send? This was close but no cigar or a whiff? RON ELVING: You know, it really depends on which way you want to look at it. From the standpoint of a lot of Wisconsin Democrats, they came within 2,000 votes of taking back the seats they needed to take in their recall forward movement and their offensive, and if they had just gotten 2,000 votes more, it would be seen, of course, as the death knell of Scott Walker, perhaps the death knell of the entire Tea Party movement, overstatements surely. RON ELVING: But as it is, they're being seen as having failed, as having fallen short, that organized labor wasted millions and millions of dollars on this campaign and that somehow it means they can't recall Scott Walker, the governor, who would of course be their ultimate target. They can't start even circulating the petitions until this November, and they can't submit them until January. So it's still a decision to be made whether or not they want to go that route. RON ELVING: In the long run, this may mean it's just a bridge too far, and they should concentrate on other races in 2012. We'll have to see. NEAL CONAN, host: In the meantime, also, there was a huge amount of outside money poured into races that were, well, very, very local, with 50,000 votes per district. RON ELVING: Fifty, sixty thousand votes, and they were dearly bought because tens of millions of dollars were spent. Now, we saw major labor unions come in, not only public unions but other unions because they see this as a forward battleground in the larger struggle over whether or not organized labor and collective bargaining are going to be part of the 21st century, not only for public employees but also for employees period. RON ELVING: And so this was a huge draw for their money. It was also a huge draw for the money of business interests and ideological groups like Club for Growth, anti-tax groups. Many people who love Scott Walker got involved, as well, and so we saw tens of millions on both sides. NEAL CONAN, host: And now the governor's saying let's put all this behind us and get back to bipartisanship. I'm never sure we were at bipartisanship, but that's where he wants to go back to. RON ELVING: Yes, it is an odd word given the very hard press that was made by this newly-elected governor to achieve much of his agenda in the early weeks of his first legislative session. He does want to talk about jobs now. He does want to talk about cooperation. And to some degree with a 17-16 state Senate and with a desire of dissuading people from recalling him or attempting to recall him next year, it would be sensible for him to lay out something more of a middle course. NEAL CONAN, host: We're getting some results from redistricting. Most places, of course, every 10 years people's district lines are redrawn for Congress by state legislatures and governors for the most part. As you know in many places, there is some vicious, vicious battles. In some places, there are commissions. That's supposed to make it a bipartisan effort. And you expect these fights. This is the most partisan political exercise you can possibly conduct. NEAL CONAN, host: Some interesting, though, John Conyers, who has been in Congress I think forever, got districted out of his seat. RON ELVING: That's right. He's been there since 1964, nearly half a century, representing Detroit in the main, and is iconic, of course, in terms of the politics of the city of Detroit, African-American politics there. RON ELVING: His new district is 80 percent different from his old district. He's only got about one voter in five of the ones who voted for him in 2010, and people that have been added to his district are from largely Republican suburbs, including some of the Grosse Pointe communities, which are well-known and affluent communities in Michigan and the Midwest. RON ELVING: So this would appear to be the death knell for John Conyers, and there is going to be an effort, in all likelihood, to challenge this map in the courts. NEAL CONAN, host: One of the longest-serving members of Congress. In the meantime, the newest member of Congress also got redistricted. RON ELVING: Yes, interesting. The number-two-long-serving person in Congress, John Conyers, and the very, very newest, Janice Hahn in Los Angeles. She just got elected a few - matter of weeks ago, really. And she is already finding herself drawn into a district with another Democratic incumbent. RON ELVING: Now, California isn't losing a lot of seats, or gaining seats, either, for that matter, but because they have this new commission, as you mentioned, they're no longer drawing the districts to protect the incumbents the way the state legislature and the governor and some of the other people involved in these maps in the past have done. RON ELVING: So with this new commission drawing communities of interest, you're bound to see some incumbents drawn together, and that includes Janice Hahn. So she's got a decision to make there. NEAL CONAN, host: And you expect these battles in places as complicated as California, even with a commission. There's a redistricting fight going on in, of all places, Maine. RON ELVING: That's right, and the only place that would be less likely would be, say, Vermont, where they only have one... NEAL CONAN, host: Or Delaware. RON ELVING: Or Delaware or Montana, where they just have the one seat. And in Maine, where they have two, they are wrangling largely over whether to draw it vertically or horizontally. Now, in fact, there is a partisan difference here. There's a new commission there. But it's evenly split, and they've got very different ideas about how to draw it. RON ELVING: And the Republicans would like to put the two current Democratic members, who have the two seats for the state of Maine in the same district, creating of course a vacancy, and then pitting the two Democrats against each other in a primary. NEAL CONAN, host: Unless one of them should move. But that's another - so instead of drawing the state horizontally, dividing it north-south into two districts, they would draw it vertically east-west, and that would put both Democrats on the coastal district. RON ELVING: That's correct, although of course there is still a certain amount of verticality or horizontality, no matter how you do it. But the point is that most of the people are towards the sea coast and nearer to the south than way up north. NEAL CONAN, host: We'll pay more attention to those as they continue to develop. In the meantime, we're going to be talking with Michael Gerson of the Washington Post about the Republican presidential field when we come back in the next segment. But there is the Democratic candidate as well, and that is Barack Obama, who set out - essentially this kicks off his campaign, this bus tour through the Midwest, as he followed the Ames Straw Poll. RON ELVING: That's right, flew into Minnesota, went down to Iowa, over to Illinois. He is trying to sort of send the signal that he still remembers his days as a candidate, when he was starting out in the Iowa caucuses contest of 2007-2008, trying to stay closer to some of those more populist moments in his career. RON ELVING: It's harder to do when you're president of the United States and when your economy is somewhat at sea, when unemployment is over 9 percent, and when your own personal popularity numbers have just slipped down under 40 percent in the Gallup for the first time. NEAL CONAN, host: Of course still three times higher than the popularity figures for Congress, but that's another issue. RON ELVING: We'll get back to Congress. NEAL CONAN, host: In the meantime, at one of his appearances, the president noted the Fox debate just before the Ames Straw Poll, where they asked: Would any of you took a deal where you got a 10-to-one split, cuts - excuse - spending cuts for revenue increases. Everybody held up their hand and said no. The president had this to say. President BARACK OBAMA: My job as president goes beyond just winning the political argument. I've got a whole bunch of responsibilities, which means I have to make choices sometimes that are unattractive and I know will be bad for me politically. NEAL CONAN, host: The president said that just doesn't make any sense. RON ELVING: Well, and he is rumored to have said, or reported to have said, in some of these negotiations with the House: I'm going to do the right there here, even if it makes me a one-term president, a phrase which Michele Bachmann likes to repeat rather often. RON ELVING: This is a president who, while he might have wanted at one time to think of himself as a consensus builder and tried to build bridges between the parties, has found himself, by a combination of the behavior of his own party and certainly by the resistance of the other party, cast in a rather partisan mode at the moment. NEAL CONAN, host: We are asking callers to tell us the strengths and weaknesses of the president. A tweet from Jamie(ph): Obama's Achilles' heel is reconvincing us of his message. His base wants him to fight, not compromise, even if he doesn't win. And he's said to be preparing a package for a major speech in early September that will propose, yes, revenue increases and says it's not possible to make the cuts we need without revenue increases. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get Marla(ph) on the phone, Marla with us from Palisade, Colorado. MARLA: Hi, I think that the president's greatest strength is pragmatism, which is one of the reasons that I very strongly supported and support him. I'm a small-business owner, and I like pragmatists. I think it's also his weakness because he has to work with extremely unpragmatic people who are only interested in hearing their own voices and their own campaigns. MARLA: And so I think that it's a possible problem for him in getting re-elected because people are - my fellow Americans are very reactionary, and they're not listening enough to pragmatism. NEAL CONAN, host: Thank you very much, Marla. Here's an email from Paul(ph) in St. Paul: It's simple. If the economy remains in the ditch and unemployment remains high, any of the Republican field can and will beat President Obama in November, 2012. And Ron, I think that's what a lot of Republican candidates are banking on. RON ELVING: That's right, and that is, I think, a factor in why Republicans feel that they can go for someone at this point who is a very strong partisan figure, somebody who is not necessarily seen as a compromiser, someone who is not going to tack back to the center but someone who would remain true to the core principles of the party all the way through. RON ELVING: Whether or not that will prove to be the best course to take a year from now is quite another matter. NEAL CONAN, host: And that's what we're going to be discussing when we come back from a short break. We want to hear from conservatives in the audience. As you consider the field of Republicans, what's more important to you, electability in the general election or political purity? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. I'm Neal Conan. Stay with us. It's the Political Junkie on TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan, in Washington. A dramatic week in the GOP presidential sweepstakes. Former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty bowed out after a distant third-place finish in the Iowa Straw Poll. Texas Governor Rick Perry jumped in. He's off and running. NEAL CONAN, host: The Pawlenty campaign bet on winning Iowa and lost when fellow Minnesotan Michele Bachmann took the life out of his socially and fiscally minded campaign. Political observers want to know whether Pawlenty's backers will now get behind Texas Governor Rick Perry, the longest-serving governor in the country. NEAL CONAN, host: He announced in South Carolina, hit Iowa. He's now in New Hampshire. In the days since his announcement, Republicans say he's the one who can challenge Mitt Romney. Of course, supporters of Ron Paul noted he finished a strong second and that he ought to do pretty well in New Hampshire, too. NEAL CONAN, host: But anyway, a lot of people face questions about political purity, Romney with questions about his health care plan, and Perry on his mandate that girls in Texas get the HPV vaccine. We want to hear from conservatives in the audience. What's more important to you: electability come November, or political purity? Give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Guest Political Junkie Ron Elving is with us. And joining us here in Studio 3A is Michael Gerson, a former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, now a columnist for the Washington Post. And always nice to have you with us on TALK OF THE NATION today. MICHAEL GERSON: Great to be with you. NEAL CONAN, host: And you wrote a piece in yesterday's Post that says something - that it says something about the GOP, that the first candidate out has the most consistent record. MICHAEL GERSON: Yeah. I think he was a center-right Republican, at least governing - as governor. And I - you know, him leaving first I think indicates something. This is the way that both Bill Clinton and George W. Bush won the presidency, by being, you know, strong on certain issues that were - appealed to their base, but also doing outreach to the middle. Right now, there's not much of that going on in the Republican Party. NEAL CONAN, host: And, in fact, you say this is, in part, a product of where these candidates come from, where they have been elected from. And for example, it's pretty easy to be an ideological purist if you represent Michele Bachmann's district in - in Minnesota. MICHAEL GERSON: Yeah. The most - in Minnesota, the most Republican district in her state. You don't have to get more than a little over 150,000 votes. When you're the governor of Minnesota or the governor of Massachusetts and you have to build coalitions, you get involved in issues that aren't typically Republican issues. MICHAEL GERSON: Pawlenty was an activist on the Republican side on climate change when he was governor, Romney, of course, on health care. And even in Texas, you have, you know, Governor Perry that has done a consistent outreach to Hispanics in that state - like George W. Bush did before him - supporting, really, the Texas version of the DREAM Act in his own state. MICHAEL GERSON: And that, you know, that's going to come up among conservatives, as well. But I think that that's just - it's proof that these people have won in more difficult electoral environments, that someone like Michele Bachmann didn't have to win in. NEAL CONAN, host: You said in your column that one of the things that Rick Perry did as governor that you admired was that stance on the HPV virus. He claimed it was a pro-life issue, it was the health of young girls. And as you wrote that column, he was changing his position. MICHAEL GERSON: He backed away from it, and so did Pawlenty, by the way, on climate change, on the human causes of climate change in his own campaign. That's an indication of where the primary is. MICHAEL GERSON: These are always contests, in primaries, between electability and purity. And we're leaning towards purity on the Republican side. NEAL CONAN, host: It's interesting, since Rick Perry has gotten into the race, he has sort of scattered soundbites through the blogosphere and on YouTube. This one was his remarks about the Federal Reserve and an issue that - quantitative easing, not generally an issue in most presidential elections, but this is what he said. He said it's the - basically, the government printing money. Governor RICK PERRY: I mean, printing more money to play politics at this particular time in American history is almost treacherous - treasonous, in my opinion. NEAL CONAN, host: Treason. NEAL CONAN, host: They shoot people for treason. MICHAEL GERSON: I know. It's a little Texas overstatement, which he has not really shown the ability to apologize for or retreat from. I think that shows how he regards his campaign. I mean, he views himself as a Tea Party outsider. It's creating some concerns among establishment Republicans that Mitt Romney wants to take advantage of. MICHAEL GERSON: And there's talk about other candidates getting in the race for fear of what - of the kind of dynamics within the Republican Party right now. NEAL CONAN, host: It's interesting, a lot of that criticism covering(ph) from the former president's advisors and staffers, such as yourself. MICHAEL GERSON: Well, the Bushies, as one newspaper talked about, have been pretty critical of Perry's comments. But, you know, all politics is local, but sometimes it's also personal. Those of us in the administration, we knew Ben Bernanke. He sat as the chairman of the... NEAL CONAN, host: He was appointed by President Bush, yeah. MICHAEL GERSON: Well, he sat as the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors in our senior staff meeting. He's a wonderful guy. When people attack him, I think there's a natural reaction there. NEAL CONAN, host: Ron? RON ELVING: Attack him or, you know, threaten to treat him as a treasonous person. It's a rather extraordinary thing to say, I think, in the usual mix of things that people have said in presidential campaigns. And even Michele Bachmann and others, who do make a strong critique of the current president, strong critique of Democrats, generally have not engaged in language of that kind. RON ELVING: So it raises certain questions, and I think one of the questions that it raised with the sudden remarks from Tony Fratto and also Karl Rove and others from the Bush administration... MICHAEL GERSON: (Unintelligible). RON ELVING: ...yes, and a number of people was: Is there some special reason why there seems to be such bad blood between the last two Republican governors of Texas? MICHAEL GERSON: Well, I'm sure there's some history, but a number of those people were not involved in Texas politics forever. I mean, Karl certainly was, but some of the others were not. And I do think that the personal aspect is an important one here: Ben is a very decent man, and to get that kind of abuse is really not good. MICHAEL GERSON: It is - the broader point here is we're seeing an invasion of a type of immoderate and, you know, to some extent, intolerant language that we're seeing in our broader political culture that's now invading the presidential election. MICHAEL GERSON: I mean, we have books where people title them "Treason." We have a sitting senator that wrote a book... NEAL CONAN, host: This goes back, none dare call it treason. MICHAEL GERSON: Right, that's true. We have, you know, a sitting senator that wrote a book that, you know, "Rush Limbaugh," you know, "is a Big, Fat Idiot. That was the title of the book. NEAL CONAN, host: Before he was in the Senate. MICHAEL GERSON: That's right. That's true. NEAL CONAN, host: He was in the radio first. MICHAEL GERSON: Exactly. But we're seeing the invasion of that type of language, that kind of approach, into the presidential process. I don't think it's a healthy thing. I think it's divisive. But I think that's where we are, both on the Tea Party side and also other elements, ideological elements in our politics. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get some callers in on the conversation. What is more important as you look at the Republican presidential field: purity, ideological purity, or electability come November 2012? Evan is on the line, calling from Boston. EVAN: Hi, there. Thank you for having me on. NEAL CONAN, host: Sure. Go ahead, please. EVAN: I think that the most important thing right - I'm a fiscal conservative, and I think that the most important thing is ideological purity, because I don't think that people are really going to go for a status-quo candidate this year. I think that fiscal conservative is in this year, and that I don't think that if a status-quo Republican ran, I don't think he would do as well as somebody that actually is fiscally conservative. So I'm a Ron Paul guy, and I think that he would be the best candidate. NEAL CONAN, host: OK, and obviously - he didn't call treason at the Fed. He just called for the Fed to be eliminated. MICHAEL GERSON: That's right. Investigated, which I think Perry has now endorsed. And, you know, I understand that concern, and Ron Paul is certainly the one that is not the status-quo candidate. You know, he would certainly, you know, abolish large swaths of the government itself. MICHAEL GERSON: But there really is no moderate candidate on the Republican side right now. Even someone like Mitt Romney uses very, very conservative arguments when it comes to economics. We're not going to have a status-quo Republican in this race, but there is a question whether we're going to have an electable Republican. NEAL CONAN, host: In fact, asked if he would have accepted the same debt ceiling deal that Barack Obama had just enacted, Mitt Romney had this to say. MITT ROMNEY: Look, I'm not going to eat Barack Obama's dog food, all right. What he served up was not what I would have done if I'd have been president of the United States. NEAL CONAN, host: Which doesn't quite say whether he would have signed it or not, but it's a good soundbite. MICHAEL GERSON: No, I agree. Someone like Prime Minister David Cameron in Britain, a conservative, had about four or $5 in cuts for every dollar in tax increases. I think most conservatives, when you sit down, would accept a deal like that. But they can't say that they would accept that in a Republican primary, given the atmosphere right now. NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Peter in Tulsa: I'm a conservative in Oklahoma. I'm very concerned with the overall electability for the GOP field. We have seen that a weak candidate will fail during - even during a Republican wave election, i.e., the Delaware Senate race in 2012. I think that Perry may have the ability to win, even though he has a few downsides on his political purity, but I'm not sure if he keeps attacking the Fed and speaking from the hip that he can win. NEAL CONAN, host: And Michael Gerson, there's a lot of concern about - well, it's usually referred as discipline. Can the candidates stay on-message? And difficult to do if you're wandering around the state fair talking to everybody who has a microphone. MICHAEL GERSON: No, I agree. I mean, there's always a huge test right at the beginning, where you make mistakes. Michele Bachmann has made mistakes, and Rick Perry has made mistakes, and the question is how you recover from them. MICHAEL GERSON: I think Perry's deeper problem is right now, he has a largely negative message. You know, he talks about the 10th Amendment, which is about limits of government. He talks about climate skepticism. He's not really offering kind of economic hope beyond austerity, which I think Republicans are going to have to do. MICHAEL GERSON: That transition may come later in the primary process, but they're going to have to talk about economic growth and job creation in compelling ways in order to win this election. It's not going to be handed to them. NEAL CONAN, host: Ron? RON ELVING: The compassionate conservative, that is an element, a dimension of George W. Bush's political persona that I believe, to some degree, Governor Perry was contemptuous of, is that not right? MICHAEL GERSON: I think that's true. I think that Governor Perry in both tone and content really makes Haley Barbour look like a moderate in the context of Southern politics. He's a hard-core Southern conservative with a very strong Texas style, but, you know, people forget that Ronald Reagan had a pretty tough style when he came into politics - talked about government being the problem, not the answer, very categorical statement. And that was a year -given high inflation and other challenges - where it was possible for a Republican like that to win. If I were Barack Obama, you know, with 9 percent unemployment and a stalled recovery, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of someone like Rick Perry doing quite well in the election. NEAL CONAN, host: And people look at the narrowness of the lead that Mitt Romney has in these public opinion polls in any case and say, boy, Rick Perry managed to come from a lot further back and demolish Kay Bailey Hutchison, a much more mainstream Republican. MICHAEL GERSON: He's a very tough candidate. I do think, though, that there a lot of talk among mainstream conservatives now about someone else getting in the race because there's a lack of comfort with Perry or - and with Bachmann. And people talk about Paul Ryan. People talk about Chris Christie, the governor of New Jersey. You know, so I think we're still a little bit unsettled because there's not a broad, you know, happiness with the field itself. NEAL CONAN, host: Ron Elving, Paul Ryan talked because the chairman of the budget committee asked the speaker of the House, John Boehner, to not put him on the supercommittee. RON ELVING: I think it's fair to say that Paul Ryan has receded somewhat as a face in the Republican Party in the House and this whole summer with the whole crisis over the debt ceiling and so on. He was rarely front and center until the actual night of the final vote when he urged his colleagues to vote for the compromise. He, I think, has come to be - for better, for worse - synonymous with the idea of ending Medicare as we know it and making it a premium support program, a largely private insurance program, and that has not been terribly popular from a political standpoint. RON ELVING: Might be a viable solution down the road, might be part of any long-term deficit reduction, but not very immediately politically popular. So he seems to have receded a bit. It's not clear that he's the answer, especially because he's personally saying not at this point in my life - young family, haven't raised any money and so on. And the idea of taking on Rick Perry at this particular juncture does not look very attractive. NEAL CONAN, host: It's Wednesday. The political junkie is with - well, actually, he's in the ocean somewhere... RON ELVING: Bobbing the waves. NEAL CONAN, host: ...bobbing the waves. Ken Rudin will be back next week. Ron Elving, NPR senior Washington editor, is filling in most ably. Also with us is Michael Gerson, who's a columnist for The Washington Post. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: And here's a couple of tweets. Matt tweets: As a more pragmatic and less social conservative, I am more concerned with the electability of a candidate. Marcus tweets: I choose electability over purity. One of the candidates has to appeal to the middle if the GOP is going to defeat Obama. And that's really a concern, that a candidate in the primary election would box themselves into positions that would cede the political middle to Barack Obama. MICHAEL GERSON: No. Obviously, a party can choose a purist, like George McGovern, or they could choose someone like Bill Clinton. And they, you know, parties do both of those things, and they either strengthen or weaken their approach. So I do think though that you eventually do get more of a focus on electability in this process. After all, John McCain, who was not very popular with conservatives, won the last time around. Iowa, where everyone is focused right now, and where Bachmann wins, is not really typical of the Republican Party. It's really dominated by religious conservatives. It has been for quite some time. And so I think that this - as the primaries broaden, you know, there will be a more of an argument here about the future of the party. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Pete. Pete with us from Inverness in Florida. PETE: Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. NEAL CONAN, host: Sure. PETE: I think that a Republican candidate who runs on true conservative principles will instantly become electable. NEAL CONAN, host: Even if that cedes the independent voters in the middle? PETE: I don't think the independent voters are going to drift back to the left side of the political spectrum. NEAL CONAN, host: Why not? PETE: Well, I think they've had a little taste of that, and they've seen the results. And I think while they're certainly not ready to join the Tea Party, I think they are drifting and leaning to the right. NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Thanks very much, Pete. And is there one candidate you're supporting? PETE: I'm still studying the field. NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Thanks very much for the call. PETE: Bye-bye. NEAL CONAN, host: And there are... MICHAEL GERSON: I think it's certainly true that President Obama has lost support among independents since his own election last time around. And that's an opportunity for Republicans. But any presidential candidate, this is simplistic but it's generally true, that any presidential candidate wins by motivating his base while simultaneously reaching out to the middle. That's what Barack Obama did last time. That's what George Bush did perfectly in his first election. Bill Clinton did. And so, you know, that's eventually a way that a Republican is going to have to win like everyone else. And some candidates are going to be more capable of doing that than others. NEAL CONAN, host: And let's indulge in a little pie in the sky, if you will. Last week, we - Ron Elving - said you could have in the first three contests - Iowa, New Hampshire and then South Carolina - three different winners in the Republican field. Maybe Michele Bachmann, who did well in the straw poll, maybe Mitt Romney, who has a strong base in New Hampshire, and then maybe Rick Perry in South Carolina. Super Tuesday doesn't exist with the same power as it used to. Could you see this battle extending into June? MICHAEL GERSON: Well, if that battle extends in that fashion, I think that Romney would be pretty happy about that. If both Bachmann and Perry remain in this race and fight it out for Tea Party and conservative support, that's probably to the benefit of Romney. I think his concern is whether you have one candidate, whether Rick Perry, in particular, can unite Tea Party support with movement - conservative broader movement, conservative support - and really make a major challenge to the Republican establishment. That wouldn't be a foregone conclusion. If it's a two-person race in that way, which I'm not convinced it will be, but if it were, that would be much more problematic. NEAL CONAN, host: And if you get a situation like that, well, let me be the first - brokered convention. All right. NEAL CONAN, host: I said it. I said it. It's out there. Ron Elving, thank you very much for your time today. RON ELVING: My pleasure, Neal. NEAL CONAN, host: Ron Elving, NPR senior Washington editor, filling in as our political junkie. Ken Rudin will be back next week. Our thanks as well to Michael Gerson, who's a columnist for The Washington Post, who joined us here today in Studio 3A. Michael, as always, thanks very much for your time. MICHAEL GERSON: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Coming up, director John Sayles will join us. His new movie "Amigo" is set in the Philippine-American War, has some lessons for current conflicts. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

Former Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty quit the 2012 presidential race after the Iowa straw poll, while Texas Gov. Rick Perry jumped in. Former Pres. George W. Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson and NPR's Ron Elving discuss electability and "purity tests" in the GOP nominating contest.

Der ehemalige Gouverneur von Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty, verließ die Präsidentschaftswahl 2012 nach der Strohumfrage von Iowa, während der Gouverneur von Texas, Rick Perry, daran teilnahm. Der Redenschreiber von George W. Bush, Michael Gerson, und Ron Elving von NPR diskutieren die Wählbarkeit und \"Reinheitstests\" im GOP-Nominierungswettbewerb.

爱荷华州进行测验性民意调查后，前明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·波伦蒂退出了2012 年总统竞选，而德克萨斯州州长瑞克·佩里则加入了竞选。前总统乔治·W·布什的演讲稿撰写人迈克尔·格尔森和美国国家公共广播电台的罗恩·埃尔文讨论了共和党提名角逐中的候选人和其对党的忠诚度测试。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Police in San Bernardino have been praised for how quickly they responded to Wednesday's shooting. And yet, they still didn't get there soon enough to stop the massacre, even though the SWAT team was training just a couple minutes away. As NPR's Martin Kaste reports, the recent string of mass shootings has convinced some Americans that they need to prepare themselves. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: When Tina Clippinger heard about the mass shooting in San Bernardino, she didn't wonder what she might do in that situation. She'd already thought that through. TINA CLIPPINGER: I'm going to say to you, Martin, run. OK, I'm going to squeeze your arm, and you're going to know something is terribly, terribly wrong. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: We're sitting on a bench at an outdoor mall. This is Riverside County, about an hour from San Bernardino. Clippinger was deeply distressed by Wednesday's shootings. But she'd rather not dwell on that. Instead, she wants to show me the techniques that she learned in a class that she took a couple of years ago after another mass shooting here in Southern California. The plan, she says, is simple. You run or hide, and if you don't have any other options, you fight. She has me play the bad guy. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: OK, I've got my finger gun right here. TINA CLIPPINGER: So you've got a finger gun on me. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: Yeah - oh. I did not see that happening. TINA CLIPPINGER: No, you didn't. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: What she did was look over my shoulder, enough of a distraction to allow her to bat away my gun with her other hand. TINA CLIPPINGER: You're thinking, in a nanosecond, what is she looking at? MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: So I looked over there, and that's the moment... TINA CLIPPINGER: I can run. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: Uh-huh. TINA CLIPPINGER: I can run - run, run, run, run, run. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: Clippinger is among a growing number of Americans who've responded to this wave of mass shootings by taking survival classes, classes like this one. ALON STIVI: I will teach how to - where to stand and how to position yourself so you have a tactical advantage versus the shooter coming through that door. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: The video shows college-age kids here in California practicing what they'd do if a gunman were about to barge into their classroom. ALON STIVI: Shots fire in the corridor. Shots fire in the corridor. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: One group is preparing to throw things at the shooter's face while others prepare to rush him from a different direction. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Whoa. UNIDENTIFIED STUDENTS: (Laughter). ALON STIVI: Yes, sir. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: The man teaching that class was Alon Stivi. He's a counterterrorism expert from Israel. ALON STIVI: Well, I came to America almost 30 years ago to teach Americans how to survive terrorism. And I had a conviction that terrorism is coming to America. And I wanted to do something about it. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: His company, Attack Countermeasures Training, gives courses to police and, especially lately, to civilians. ALON STIVI: Generally, business is good. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: And not just for him. Several companies now teach variations of these run-hide-fight strategies. And law enforcement supports the trend. SID HEAL: The victims are going to have to take responsibility for their own survival. MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: Sid Heal was once the head of the Los Angeles Sheriff's SWAT team. Now he's retired, and he studies active shooter situations. He considers survival techniques like this a new life skill, sort of the CPR of the 21st century. He feels this way even though most people will never encounter an active shooter. Statistically, the average American is still far more likely to be shot by someone he or she knows or to be killed on the road by someone texting at the wheel. Heal's aware of these statistics. But still, he wants people to prepare. SID HEAL: The thing is - is that you're going to have to decide on what's the worst-case scenario. Is it worse to experience this in a controlled environment or simply become numb when it actually happens and you're incapable of dealing with it? MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: In Riverside County, Tina Clippinger puts it another way. She says she'd rather have a plan of action than just be afraid. Martin Kaste, NPR News, San Bernardino.

The litany of mass shootings has made one thing clear: police can't get to the scene fast enough to stop a massacre. And that's generating demand for a specialized kind of training for civilians.

Die Litanei von Massenerschießungen hat eines deutlich gemacht: Die Polizei kann nicht schnell genug vor Ort sein, um ein Massaker zu stoppen. Und das führt zu einer Nachfrage nach einer speziellen Art von Training für Zivilisten.

一连串的大规模枪击事件清楚地表明了一件事：警察无法足够快地赶到现场，阻止一场大屠杀。这就产生了对平民进行专门训练的需求。

IRA FLATOW, host: Up next, Flora is here. Hi, Flora. FLORA LICHTMAN: Hi, Ira. IRA FLATOW, host: Flora Lichtman, with our Video Pick of the Week. What have we got this week? FLORA LICHTMAN: This week, how to boost your bicycle. IRA FLATOW, host: And then boost your... FLORA LICHTMAN: OK. That sounds self-explanatory. IRA FLATOW, host: This is... FLORA LICHTMAN: We can give you a little more. IRA FLATOW, host: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY, from NPR. And how to boost your bicycle. That doesn't mean steal it, right? FLORA LICHTMAN: No. Well, no. We are not telling you how to do that. You wouldn't want to boost your own. But it's the story of 22-year-old Maxwell von Stein. He's a graduate from The Cooper Union here in NYC and studied mechanical engineering. And basically, what he did was attached a flywheel to his bike. So it's a big, metal... IRA FLATOW, host: Heavy wheel. FLORA LICHTMAN: ...wheel. And he put a transmission on the back hub of his bicycle wheel that allows him to, instead of braking, take the energy from that back wheel and put it into the flywheel, flowing down the bike. IRA FLATOW, host: Just like my Prius or, you know, the... FLORA LICHTMAN: Regenerative braking. IRA FLATOW, host: ...regenerative braking. But, so he - so when he brakes, the energy from him moving forward in - with the wheels goes to spinning up the flywheel. FLORA LICHTMAN: Spins up this heavy, 15-pound flywheel - which, by the way, is located in between the crossbars, right between your legs, which is another thing that makes the bike different from other bikes. And then that flywheel stores the kinetic energy. And he can actually transfer it back. So if he's going up a hill or something, he can give himself a little boost. IRA FLATOW, host: Little boost. So he doesn't have to paddle as hard... FLORA LICHTMAN: Exactly. IRA FLATOW, host: ...going up the hill and above. Of course, that's going to use up some of the energy in the flywheel. FLORA LICHTMAN: Right. And then you can power it up again as you... IRA FLATOW, host: As he goes down the hill. FLORA LICHTMAN: As he goes down the hill. And it's really a pretty elegant, little design, I thought. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. Wow. And you can see this on our Video Pick of the Week. It's up there on our website at SCIENCE FRIDAY. And he's bicycling around. And he had to design the whole system himself? FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah, he - I mean, you know, he took some parts of bicycles that already exist, but he machined a bunch of the things like the chain wheel - the chain ring adapter. And so the video also features - if you like tools, this is a good video for you... IRA FLATOW, host: Ah, yes. Cool. FLORA LICHTMAN: ...because there are a lot of cool tools at The Cooper Union machine shop, as you might imagine. IRA FLATOW, host: And - but flywheels are - I'm sure you've discovered, this is an old technology, right? FLORA LICHTMAN: Well, that's what I said. I was like, this is - why are, you know, this is kind of low-tech. And he said, well, you know, my version is low-tech. But actually, his dream is to bring this concept to cars. And he said that some car companies are experimenting with the flywheel, because it's cheaper than batteries, and it's lighter than batteries. And so that's sort of his idea for this. IRA FLATOW, host: And it delivers a huge amount of energy in an instant of time, just when you need it, it'll deliver a lot energy. FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah. He says a kick in the pants. IRA FLATOW, host: A kick... FLORA LICHTMAN: It's how he describes it. IRA FLATOW, host: I know they're experimenting, you know, and I remember even going back to the '60s, that they've tried to put flywheels into cars. And maybe now that - his idea is actually right, to see if he could make a flywheel car or that - see how that might work. FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah. And for - and, you know, we've already had a comment on our website about this. And they said that - the person said, you know, that's great for cars, but I like this for bikes too. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. FLORA LICHTMAN: Why not? And for New York, it's perfect, because they are... IRA FLATOW, host: Let's not write off the bike business. FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah. Yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: So good thing, because I think it's a great idea. Maybe you make a bigger flywheel, you know? You have to trade up between the weight of that thing on the bike. FLORA LICHTMAN: Right. I think that's - you're pedaling around some extra weight. But if you're doing a lot of stopping and starting, like you do in New York City, like riding in traffic, this is really - you can see why this would be helpful. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah, because it's that first push from stationary that's the hardest part of getting on a bike and riding it. FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah. And you're constantly slowing down for cars and speeding up and - yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: And go see this, our Video of the Week. It's up there on our website at sciencefriday.com. You'll find it following the "Where's the Octopus?" video, still being viewed. FLORA LICHTMAN: One more little plug for that. IRA FLATOW, host: One more for that. It's breaking quarter million views. And it's up there. And it's really - I think it's a great idea. I think this is going to catch on. It's something - everybody can do their own. FLORA LICHTMAN: Oh, I hope so. And you know what? Maxwell von Stein - this is a classic case of why he was in front the camera. He is a really a smart kid. You can tell. IRA FLATOW, host: All right. Our Video Pick of the Week up there at SCIENCE FRIDAY. Thank you, Flora. FLORA LICHTMAN: Thanks, Ira. IRA FLATOW, host: And while you're there, you can download our iTunes and podcasts of the video. And we do podcasts of our audio shows. And also there, you can join our website and log onto our Twitter, and also join folks on scifri at our Facebook account. So that's about all the time we have for today. Stay with us. Next week, we'll be right back. If you want to send us some email, you can send us at scifri@sciencefriday.com. Also, you can send us with the regular, old-fashion way, SCIENCE FRIDAY, 4 West 43rd St., Room 306, New York, New York, 10036. Have a great weekend. We'll see you next week. I'm Ira Flatow, in New York.

Maxwell von Stein, a 22 year-old Cooper Union graduate, built a bicycle that uses a flywheel to store energy. Instead of braking, he can slow the bicycle by transferring the kinetic energy from back wheel into the flywheel—which spins between the bars of the frame. Then Max can send the flywheel energy back to the wheel when he wants a boost.

Maxwell von Stein, ein 22-jähriger Cooper-Union-Absolvent, baute ein Fahrrad, das ein Schwungrad verwendet, um Energie zu speichern. Anstatt zu bremsen, kann er das Fahrrad verlangsamen, indem er die kinetische Energie vom Hinterrad auf das Schwungrad überträgt, das sich zwischen den Stäben des Rahmens dreht. Dann kann Max die Schwungradenergie zurück zum Rad schicken, wenn er einen Schub möchte.

22岁的麦克斯韦·冯·斯坦是库珀联盟学院毕业生，他制造了一辆用飞轮储存能量的自行车。他可以通过将后轮的动能转移到飞轮上——飞轮在车架的横杆之间旋转——来减缓自行车的速度，而不是通过刹车。然后麦克斯就可以在他需要助推的时候将飞轮的能量送回车轮。

TONY COX, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Tony Cox in Washington. Neal Conan is away. Activists in Syria say security forces killed at least six people in anti-regime protests across the country last night. Today, a resident of the central city Hama told the Associated Press that gunmen in plainclothes are shooting people at random in the streets. This is just the latest assault in a city where at least 100 people have been reported killed since Sunday. TONY COX, host: Last night, the United Nations responded to the escalating violence. The Security Council issued a presidential statement condemning the actions of the regime forces and calling on Syrian authorities to immediately end all violence. TONY COX, host: While some say the statement marks a turning point in the attitude of the international community, others argue that the U.N. response was too weak and too late and that the international community must do more. TONY COX, host: In a recent op-ed in the New York Times, however, Bassma Kodmani argues that foreign governments, whether Arab or Western, have limited roles to play and that the key to stopping the bloodshed lies with the Syrian people. We'll talk with her about her view in just a moment. TONY COX, host: Later in the program, NPR health policy correspondent Julie Rovner joins us to walk us through the ins and outs of the new preventive medicine mandates for insurance companies. A year from now, women will not have to pay deductibles and co-pays for birth control. What difference could this make? Give us a call, 800-989-8255, that is the number here. Or email us at talk@npr.org. We'll get to your calls and emails on that after the break. TONY COX, host: But first, the uprising in Syria. Bassma Kodmani joins us now from Paris. She is the executive director of the Arab Reform Initiative. Bassma, welcome. BASSMA KODMANI: Hello. TONY COX, host: As more and more reports come out about increased violence in Syria, the question about what to do gets bigger and bigger. And you say that the key to toppling the regime of President Bashar Assad lies with the Syrian people, specifically a minority Shiite sect called the Alawites. Tell us who they are and why they hold the key in your view. BASSMA KODMANI: The Alawites in Syria represent some 10 percent of the population. They are - they try to relate themselves to the Shia(ph) branch, but they are a very specific sect. Now, this sect rose in power through the military and the one-party system in Syria in the '60s, then rose to power, and this is the community that now holds power and relies, actually, on the community to serve in the security forces, in the top leadership of the army. They actually hold the key to the power centers in the country. TONY COX, host: What gives you the sense that the Alawites might be amenable to moving to the other side? BASSMA KODMANI: Well, I think there are indications that the community feels that it is being taken hostage by one or two families, and there are lots of grievances, actually. Historically, there always were grievances between the different families of the community. BASSMA KODMANI: And now, when they see the Assad family and their cousins and in-laws are losing power, losing credibility, they might find that it is safer for them now to opt for the new legitimacy that lies with the street, with the protestors, because their future will be better guaranteed if they are seen to join this movement while there is still time to do so. BASSMA KODMANI: But they are of course very concerned because the regime has been going - has been strategically dividing communities and convincing them that it is their survival that is at stake. If the regime goes, they will be in danger of survival. BASSMA KODMANI: And this is where I think the rest of the population and the majority of the population, which is Sunni Muslim, may have a role to play in reassuring the Alawite community that it is safe for it to turn against the Assad family and save the rest of the community. TONY COX, host: Bassma Kodmani is our guest. She is the executive director of the Arab Reform Initiative. One of the things that you wrote about in the op-ed piece in the New York Times was the relationship that the international community, specifically the United States, should or should not have with regard to the events occurring in Syria. TONY COX, host: And you write, and I'm quoting here, that anyone who calls for outside intervention is likely to be branded a traitor. Any Western threat of military action would therefore hurt the opposition more than the regime. Outside powers can play a useful role by declaring they will not use military force. TONY COX, host: What is your reaction to the response so far this week, particularly from the United Nations and also from what occurred today from the Obama administration as far as their response to the uprising so far? BASSMA KODMANI: Well, when we say the international community should say that it is not intending to - it does not intend to intervene militarily, I think one should add that it is ready and decided to use all other means. BASSMA KODMANI: Now, all other means requires spending more time and energy on developing smart sanctions and smart ways of pressuring the regime, playing with different actors in the region who may have influence on the regime, such as Turkey, but also such as Iran, who can talk to Iran. There are different ways of pressuring the government. BASSMA KODMANI: Now, the action through the U.N. Security Council is important. It is important to get the Syrian regime to lose the different layers of protection it still has. It has protection from a number of powers outside the country, such as Russia, such as China, but it's specifically Russia, and of course Iran. BASSMA KODMANI: It has also a layer of protection which is the business community inside the country. Now, when one - when the international community decides on sanctions against individuals, it is hurting very much the regime because those families, those groups who are in alliance with the government, with the current regime in Syria, find that they have, they are now at risk. Their interests are at risk. So they are turning against the regime. BASSMA KODMANI: And this is very important to make the regime lose those layers of protection. Diplomatically, at the international level, Russia is moving fairly quickly now, and this is what we're seeing. Atrocities make it more and more embarrassed to justify not taking - not condemning the regime, not taking sanctions and not reaching a resolution. BASSMA KODMANI: So I think, yes, the international answer(ph) has been below the expected or the needed reply from the international community, but I think we are moving in that direction. It is a race against time. TONY COX, host: Well, just in the last hour, there are reports that come from the Obama administration that it has imposed economic sanctions on a prominent businessman accused of supporting the Syrian government in the crackdown. This is Muhammad Hamsho, and the Treasury Department said it ordered a freeze on his assets and his companies. TONY COX, host: You've made some reference to sanctions. Do you think that sanctions will deter the regime? BASSMA KODMANI: Well, the sanctions against such people may not be the most effective. I think the more effective is - there is a second circle of businesspeople who still protect the regime and help it, and these should also be targeted, not only the first ones that you just mentioned. BASSMA KODMANI: These are loyal till the end, and the regime has been smart in involving these people so that there is no one person decision. It's always a collective decision to go after one city, to crush a protest somewhere and to commit those mass crimes against the population. BASSMA KODMANI: So yes, sanctions are effective. The one interesting development, I think, and I'm seeing - we see that the international community is moving quickly, is a statement by Mr. Medvedev, the Russian president, this evening saying that if the Syrian president does not make the necessary moves and stop the repression, he may have a sad ending. And I think a sad end for Assad does mean that Russia is now moving in the right direction, hopefully. TONY COX, host: As you are no doubt aware, six activists who represent U.S.-based leaders of the Syrian opposition met with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Tuesday. And they pressed her for sanctions - or stronger U.S. leadership on oil, gas and weapons sanctions against the regime. They also asked the administration to call for Bashar al-Assad to leave office and for the International Criminal Court to charge him with crimes of humanity. TONY COX, host: Are you finding that those who are in support of the opposition both here in the United States as well as around the world - you're in Paris, for example - are you on the same page? BASSMA KODMANI: Well, we are on the same page as far as the pressure can be maximized on the regime. So sanctions, declarations, particularly sanctions. I think public diplomacy, public statements does not impact the regime so much. It actually is - sometimes benefits the regime. BASSMA KODMANI: But sanctions, yes. The International Criminal Court, yes, definitely. But at some point, once the regime feels it is completely cornered, and this has not yet happened, there will be, I think, the need to talk about what's an - what's the end scenario for the regime to go because I don't think we want to see what happened in Yemen or what happened in Libya - that is, the burning of the capital, the burning of a presidential palace, the destruction of the country. BASSMA KODMANI: This regime is willing to go that far, but I think we need to think very hard about the political ending of this crisis and how the regime can be convinced and told at some point there is no other way but to go complete to go away, without any confessions, actually, but I think there is some scope to do that. BASSMA KODMANI: So I see that declarations of the regime needs to go, the street is saying that. Everybody is saying that. If it comes from Western powers, it is not going to add so much, but definitely measures, yes. TONY COX, host: Thank you very much. Bassma Kodmani is the executive director of the Arab Reform Initiative, a consortium of policy research centers. She joined us from her home in Paris. Thank you again for your time today. BASSMA KODMANI: Thank you. TONY COX, host: You can find a link to her New York Times op-ed at our website. Go to npr.org and click on TALK OF THE NATION. Next week we'll bring other opinions on what can be done to ease tensions in Syria. Tune in for that.

Arab Reform Initiative executive director Bassma Kodmani says the international community is limited in what it can do to stop the bloodshed in restive Syria. The key to stability in the country, Kodmani argues, lies with the Syrian people, specifically a minority sect called the Alawites.

Bassma Kodmani, Exekutivdirektor der Arabischen Reforminitiative, sagt, die internationale Gemeinschaft habe nur begrenzte Möglichkeiten, das Blutvergießen im unruhigen Syrien zu stoppen. Der Schlüssel zur Stabilität im Land, argumentiert Kodmani, liege bei der syrischen Bevölkerung, insbesondere bei einer Minderheit, den Alawiten.

阿拉伯改革倡议组织执行主任巴斯玛·科德马尼认为，叙利亚动荡不安，流血冲突不断，国际社会能做的有限。科德马尼认为，叙利亚稳定的关键在于叙利亚人民，特别是一个叫做阿拉维派的少数派。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Today is the first day of work for New Hampshire's 400-member House of Representatives. Among the many new faces will be 19-year-old Cassandra Levesque. She got involved in state politics a few years ago, motivated to change the child marriage laws in her state that allowed girls as young as 13 to be married. Levesque worked with a state legislator, and the state agreed to raise the marriage age to 16. Cassandra Levesque wasn't satisfied, though. She wants the marriage age raised to 18, so she ran for state office and won. She told me why this issue has moved her the way it has. CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: The big problem is they wound up in abusive situations, not having any money to their name. They are just stuck in this situation, and they don't know how to get out. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How did this turn into you running for a seat on the state legislature? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: One of the representatives that I met is Representative Ellen Read from Newmarket, N.H. And she has been a mentor for me since I decided to run. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: She suggested that you do it? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: Yes. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And did you think that was crazy? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: Yes, I did. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know how to run. I was very wary of it. I had so many questions that needed to be answered. And I came up with the pros and con list. And I sat down with Representative Ellen Read and many other people, and I asked them questions. And soon, the cons turned into pros (laughter). RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And your parents, your family was all supportive? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: Yes, definitely. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Were you surprised when you won? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: (Laughter) Yes, I was. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Clearly, a lot of people have faith in you. You won your election. You were encouraged by people at the highest levels. But I'm sure you've gotten some kind of strange looks from folks or comments under their breath about, how is this 19-year-old going to do this job? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: Yes, I have. I feel that, with my age, a lot of people don't really know what to think. They only think of 19-year-olds in college. Then they look back what they were doing at 19. My thing is, though, I've done so much since I was 15. I could do so much more as a state representative. And I have been told that I'm very mature from my age. I can make a difference and hopefully bring new perspective in to the state representative. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Setting aside the child marriage act, which I assume will still be important to you - but what are the other issues that you're really passionate about, that you want to work on? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: Definitely women and children's issues and bringing the youth back into New Hampshire, finding ways to make it affordable and accessible for them to get an education and figure out ways to where we can make our drinking water safe. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Do you think you might be into politics, like, for the long haul? Is this something you'd make a career out of? CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: I do not know yet. I'm still figuring some things out. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Cassandra Levesque, thank you so much for talking with us. CASSANDRA LEVESQUE: Thank you.

Rachel Martin talks to Cassandra Levesque, a New Hampshire state legislator who starts her first term in office on Wednesday. Changing child marriage laws motivated her to run for office.

Rachel Martin spricht mit Cassandra Levesque, einer Abgeordneten des Bundesstaates New Hampshire, die am Mittwoch ihre erste Amtszeit antritt. Die Änderung des Kinderehegesetzes motivierte sie, für ein Amt zu kandidieren.

蕾切尔·马丁采访了卡珊德拉·莱韦斯克，她是新罕布什尔州的立法委员，将于周三开始她的第一个任期。不断变化的童婚法律激励着她竞选公职。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: President Obama was quick to denounce the attacks in Paris Friday. Speaking from the White House, he recalled the long history shared by France and the U.S. PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: France is our oldest ally. The French people have stood shoulder to shoulder with the United States time and again. And we want to be very clear that we stand together with them in the fight against terrorism and extremism. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: France and the United States are also founding members of NATO. Admiral James Stavridis is NATO's former Supreme Allied Commander. He is now dean of the Fletcher School at Tufts University. He joins us now live. Welcome to the program. JAMES STAVRIDIS: Hi, Rachel, how's it going this morning? RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It goes well. Thanks for being with us, Admiral. As you know, the Paris attacks came just a few days after a bombing in Beirut, which ISIS also took responsibility for. ISIS is also believed to be behind the downing of this Russian airliner in Egypt a couple weeks ago. You say now's the time for NATO to come together and act. Why now? JAMES STAVRIDIS: Because we have finally seen the real depth of this threat. The Islamic State is unlike anything we've seen before, particularly in terms of its level of brutality. And what has really changed in the last 30 days is its level of sophistication, its ability to reach out across so many borders and plan and conduct these operations more or less simultaneously. That is deeply concerning when coupled to their - the brutality of the organization. So I think this has to be treated as a real attack against the alliance and really an attack against the world. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You write about this on the website of Foreign Policy Magazine. And we should clarify that in order for NATO to act in a military way, they have to invoke Article 5 of the Alliance Treaty. You point out the only other time that has been invoked was after 9/11. You see this attack in a related way? JAMES STAVRIDIS: I do, and I think the French very much do. Any nation of the 28 in NATO has the authority to request an Article 4 consultation, which leads to an Article 5 declaration. I think France will do that. And I think they have pretty good - pretty good, valid grounds for that, particularly if you put the death level and the injury level on a population-adjusted basis - population of France about one-sixth that of the United States - this really starts to resemble a 9/11 level event. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But the big question is what does a NATO response look like? This is a very different moment than the attack that was waged in Afghanistan against the Taliban and al-Qaida. This involves Syria. JAMES STAVRIDIS: Indeed. I think a NATO response would be four or five things. It would start with an enhanced level of intelligence-sharing and special operations from the NATO nations going in and supporting the current campaign. Secondly, NATO would take over the bombing campaign. This would bring many more assets - aircraft ordinance, the airborne early warning aircraft - into the fight. Thirdly, I think NATO should take on the training mission, both for the Kurds in the north and the Iraqi security forces in the south. Rachel, this way the United States doesn't have to pull the entire load. We need the alliance to step up and be there with us. And by the way, this ought to be not just NATO. There are many Arab states - and indeed Russia at least has articulated a desire to conduct operations as part of this - so I see this as NATO as the core of, effectively, a global response against the Islamic State. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But very briefly, you mentioned the Gulf state, Saudi Arabia, has said that it will continue to back rebels who are fighting against Bashar al-Assad. JAMES STAVRIDIS: Yeah, I think that situation in western Syria is going to have to be put on a diplomatic and political track. And, of course, that's what Secretary Kerry is doing today in Vienna, trying to work through that situation, the regime - the Assad regime. The Islamic State is a different problem set. And I think we can all agree, at this point, we need to go after them together. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: James Stavridis is a former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. He's now at Tufts University. He joined us live. Thank you so much, Admiral. JAMES STAVRIDIS: Thanks, Rachel.

Is there a role for NATO in the response to the Paris attacks? NPR's Rachel Martin asks James Stavridis, NATO's former supreme allied commander for Europe.

Welche Rolle spielt die NATO bei der Reaktion auf die Anschläge von Paris? Rachel Martin von NPR befragt James Stavridis, den ehemaligen Oberbefehlshaber der NATO für Europa.

北约在应对巴黎袭击事件中发挥作用吗？美国国家公共广播电台记者蕾切尔·马丁向北约前欧洲最高盟军指挥官詹姆斯·斯塔夫里迪斯提问。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Women of color have long been ignored by major cosmetic firms, which meant there wasn't a whole lot of choice if you weren't white. That has changed. Karen Grigsby Bates from NPR's Code Switch team takes a look at why companies now see many shades of women. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: Cosmetics mogul Bobbi Brown remembers when she began working as a freelance makeup artist in the fashion industry in the 1980s, there were challenges to making up black and brown women. BOBBI BROWN: As a freelance makeup artist, I worked with models from all over the globe and women of many different skin colors, from alabaster, the whitest of white, to the darkest of dark. And often, I would have a bag full of foundations - as a young makeup artist - and nothing worked. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: There just wasn't a lot out there for women of color, especially women with darker skin. Eventually, Brown would find a remedy. But we'll get back to that in a minute. Karen Grant is the global beauty industry analyst for NPD, a market research group. Grant, who is African-American, says she remembers the workaround many black women used when there was no deep-hued foundation. KAREN GRANT: Most times I think what women of color did was you'd put on powder. You know, and you might blot in. You might try to not put on too much so that it didn't make the skin look chalky. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: It was a partial solution. But it didn't work for everyone. For the most part, there just wasn't a wide range of colors for women of color - with one notable exception. In 1973, Fashion Fair cosmetics appeared. Born from the makeup worn by Ebony Fashion Fair models as they walked the runway, Fashion Fair came in hues that actually worked for brown skin. It engendered a fierce loyalty among its customers, like beauty blogger Lily Seymour. LILY SEYMOUR: These are my three face foundations that I love to use, that match my complexion exactly, to the T, by Fashion Fair. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: Another option appeared in 1983, when Prescriptives introduced its custom-blended foundation. As the country's demographics began to change, the cosmetics industry slowly began to realize it needed to wake up and smell the cafe au lait if it wanted to remain relevant and profitable. JANET PARDO: Skin tones and attitudes and lifestyle and personal relationships, everything changes. And as a result of that, it affects how we do product development here, especially in foundation. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: That's Janet Pardo, Senior VP of product development for Clinique cosmetics, ticking off just some of the factors that affect how her company develops its foundation palette. And, says Pardo... JANET PARDO: Pallets have to constantly be reevaluated. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: Analyst Karen Grant says as America and Europe become browner through migration and intermarriage, cosmetics companies need to broaden their thinking as well as their palates. KAREN GRANT: This is an opportunity that they can market. And I think the success of brands like Bobbi Brown, like MAC, has made brands take note. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: In fact, MAC is the number one department store brand. Almost half its customer base is women of color. But the mass market's been affected too. Big companies like Revlon, L'Oreal and Maybelline now feature a wider range of skin tones and celebrity representatives like Halle Berry and Eva Longoria. Cover Girl has the Queen Collection, an entire line devoted to deeper hues, named for singer-actress Queen Latifah. QUEEN LATIFAH: If you want your makeup to look fresh even at the end of a long day... SAM FINE: Queen Collection All Day Flawless Foundation. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: A black spokeswoman for a company as dominant as Cover Girl is huge. Remember makeup artist Bobbi Brown? In 1991, she partnered with a chemist to develop makeup that would work for a wider range of skin tones. Today, the line has 24 foundation colors, from very pale to very deep, that are sold around the globe. The brand remains a favorite for ethnic women because Brown insists that her shades must work for everyone. BOBBI BROWN: Not just colors for women of color, but it's the right colors. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: Beauty analyst Karen Grant concurs. KAREN GRANT: People are having friends of all different races, nationalities. And people like to shop together and discuss together. And so we do need and look for brands that appeal to all of us. KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, BYLINE: And, Grant predicts, the cosmetics companies that will do best in the mosaic that is the global market will have products and sales staff that look like the consumers they're hoping to capture. Karen Grigsby Bates, NPR News.

Decades ago, few cosmetic companies manufactured make-up for women of color. Changing demographics has changed this, and now even high-end companies have adjusted to a new, more colorful reality.

Vor Jahrzehnten stellten nur wenige Kosmetikunternehmen Make-up für farbige Frauen her. Der demografische Wandel hat dies geändert, und jetzt haben sich sogar High-End-Unternehmen auf eine neue, buntere Realität eingestellt.

几十年前，很少有化妆品公司为有色人种女性生产化妆品。不断变化的人口结构改变了这一点，现在即使是高端公司也适应了一个新的、更加丰富多彩的现实。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. I'm Rachel Martin. Russia is observing a national day of mourning for the 224 people killed yesterday in a crash of an airliner in Egypt. Most of the passengers were Russians on their way back to St. Petersburg after vacationing on the Red Sea. NPR's Corey Flintoff reports that authorities and families of the passengers are looking for answers. COREY FLINTOFF, BYLINE: Russia's transport minister, Maxim Sokolov, cautioned that it was too soon to determine the cause of the Metrojet disaster. MAXIM SOKOLOV: (Speaking Russian). COREY FLINTOFF, BYLINE: He said that Russian experts will take an active part in the investigation in Egypt. And he rejected one claim that the airliner was shot down by Islamist rebels in the Sinai Peninsula. A local group that's pledged loyalty to the Islamic State says it brought the plane down. But Sokolov says that claim isn't credible. Analysts say it's unlikely that the rebels would have missiles capable of hitting a plane flying at 31,000 feet. MAXIM SOKOLOV: (Speaking Russian). COREY FLINTOFF, BYLINE: Sokolov says there was no ban on flying in the region and that the Metrojet was following an established route. Even so, the German airline Lufthansa and Air France announced that they'd stop flying over the region until the cause of the Russian crash was determined. The Russian transit minister says investigators are looking into the maintenance and safety records of the Airbus aircraft. The wife of the copilot told reporters that her husband had complained about the mechanical condition of the plane before the flight. Friends and relatives of the people lost on the flight gathered in St. Petersburg, where Vyacheslav Makarov, the head of the city government, pledged help. VYACHESLAV MAKAROV: (Speaking Russian). COREY FLINTOFF, BYLINE: The city set up an information center for relatives at a hotel near the airport and brought in grief counselors to help people cope with the initial shock of their loss. St. Petersburg Television showed images of weeping family members and spoke to this man, who gave his name only as Nail. NAIL: (Speaking Russian). COREY FLINTOFF, BYLINE: He said his wife and children had gone on holiday together. His children had come home a few days earlier. But his wife was on the plane that crashed. Nail said that he had dreamed the night before that his wife was injured. She sent him a text message just before the plane took off from Sharm el-Sheikh. It said, God be with us. Corey Flintoff, NPR News, Moscow.

Russians are observing a day of mourning for the more than 200 people who died in a plane crash in Egypt. Officials have begun an investigation into the crash and the airline that owned the plane.

Die Russen halten einen Trauertag für die mehr als 200 Menschen ab, die bei einem Flugzeugabsturz in Ägypten ums Leben gekommen sind. Die Behörden haben eine Untersuchung des Absturzes und der Fluggesellschaft, der das Flugzeug gehörte, eingeleitet.

俄罗斯人正在为因埃及空难而丧生的200多人举行为期一天的哀悼。有关官员已经开始对坠机事件和飞机所属航空公司展开调查。

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: In Venezuela today, for the first time in 75 years, newstands will not be selling copies of El Nacional. El Nacional is the country's last independent newspaper. The last print run was this past Friday. Now the paper has moved to online only after years of government restrictions and lawsuits and even trouble accessing newsprint. El Nacional joins a couple dozen other newspapers in Venezuela that have gone out of print since 2013. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Jorge Makriniotis is the general manager of El Nacional. He's run the paper just these last eight months. And we have reached him in Caracas. Welcome. JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Hi, Mary Louise. Thanks for... MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Hi. JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: ...Inviting me. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: It's good to speak to you. I wonder if you can sum up what the mood has been like in the newsroom this past Friday, when y'all saw the last print edition go out, and then today, first day it's not on newsstands. JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: The mood's - is really sad. For us, it's like someone died. So it's really sad that that the paper is not going out anymore. But at the same time, we are seeing it like a great opportunity here in Venezuela. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: How so? Why is it a great opportunity? JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Any change can be good. We are doing 75 years the same business model, so we have to change. We have to adapt. We have to make it better. Our essence is making news. The paper is a delivery. We'll have to change. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: What were the factors that led to this decision to stop going out every day as a print newspaper? JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Oh, that's very simple, actually. Over the course of the past 20 years, every other media outlet including newspapers has been bought by the government. We have resisted, and so we have been able to remain as the last independent newspaper. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And describe to me what are the efforts, as you see it, that the government has made to try to force you out of the print newspaper business? JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Economical. They have take out all the paper needed. So we have to go to the black market. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And just - I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. You said this is paper that you've had a hard time getting hold of, actual paper to print the newspaper on? JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Yeah. The thing with the paper is that the government make a company only to sell papers for the media. By obvious reasons, (laughter) they don't sell paper to us. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And for people listening who don't follow every twist and turn of Venezuelan politics, connect for me why it would be in the government's interest for you not to be able to print a newspaper. JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: The regime don't like the people to hear the truth. El Nacional speaks for the Venezuelans. It doesn't speak for the government. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: You describe this as an opportunity. And I know the plan is to continue publishing a robust newspaper online. But Venezuela has some of the worst internet in Latin America, right? You may be posting content online. Are you confident that your readers will be able to access it? JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: No. Actually, most of my readers are not able to access our website. That's part of the censorship the government is making on us. So we are being - we're coming with different tactics as well. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Can you describe them? JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: I can tell you that we're going to use a lot of text message (laughter) just to inform. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So using text messages, social media, different ways of getting information out even if people... JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Totally. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: ...Can't make it to your home page online. JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Exactly. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: I mean, it must be a bittersweet day for you. I hear you describing the - how hungry you are... JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: It is. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: ...For embracing the challenge in a new way. And yet, it's - it had to be a little sad walking past your neighborhood newsstand this morning. JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: No, it's not sad. It's different. My business is the content. The paper is the delivery. It's sad that I'm not able to see the paper print, yes. But if you're going to the website, you're going to see El Nacional. El Nacional is alive. So it's OK. I'm going to keep it alive. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Jorge Makriniotis, thank you so much. JORGE MAKRINIOTIS: Thanks to you, Mary Louise. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: He's the general manager of El Nacional in Venezuela.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly speaks with Jorge Makriniotis, the general manager of Venezuela's only remaining nationally circulated and anti-government newspaper, about publishing its final edition.

Mary Louise Kelly von NPR spricht mit Jorge Makriniotis, dem Generaldirektor der einzigen verbliebenen landesweit verbreiteten und regierungskritischen Zeitung Venezuelas, über die Veröffentlichung ihrer letzten Ausgabe.

美国国家公共电台的主持人玛丽·路易斯·凯利采访了委内瑞拉唯一一家在全国范围内发行的反政府报纸的总经理豪尔赫·马克里尼奥蒂斯，讨论出版最后一期报纸的问题。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Camp Fire in Northern California incinerated entire towns. More than 13,000 single-family homes were destroyed in the blaze. That's according to the latest reports from California fire officials. Residents who evacuated have not yet been allowed back in. So it's very strange for those who never left. In the community of Concow, a handful of residents stayed behind, including 59-year-old Jeff Evans and his parents, who live with him. Evans told me his house survived unscathed, but his neighbors were not so lucky. JEFF EVANS: Beyond the scope of my property here, when I drive out my driveway, it's like driving on the face of the moon. It's just, you know, unbelievable devastation. But from my house right here as I stand in my yard, you can't even tell there was a fire. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Really? JEFF EVANS: But if you go an eighth of a mile up my road, it is absolutely and utterly decimated. There's nothing there. And it's all very dark grey and bleak. And then yesterday, I was up on a tall bluff. And for as far as the eye can see, 10 miles, there's just nothing there. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Wow. Can you take us back, Jeff, to them to the morning of the fire and your decision, along with your elderly parents, not to evacuate? JEFF EVANS: Well, the decision was kind of made for us. I went out in the early morning hours, just like I do most mornings. It's dark. And I stepped into the backyard. And I could smell smoke. And I could see the orange glow over to my east on the other side of my neighboring property. And that's when I realized the smoke was incredibly thick. So I helped mom packed some things. I got all of my computer equipment in my truck. And dad got it all in his car. And he drove up the road while I was helping Mom. He wanted to see what it looked like. And he came back some minute or two later. He says, there is just no possible way that we are leaving to go anywhere. He said, there's no way you're going to drive through flames like that. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Wow. JEFF EVANS: So Dad came back here, informed us of that. I called all the neighbors while he was up there. And so those that might have been asleep or awake now. And then Fred, my neighbor up the end of my driveway, got on his Big John Deere. And he started cutting fire lines. And my neighbor to the east of me got onto his tractor, another John Deere. And he started cutting fire lines. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And when you say fire lines, you just mean just taking out all the vegetation. JEFF EVANS: Take out all the vegetation. Get it down to dirt, where the fire simply isn't going to burn anymore. That's the only way, really, to shut it down. That's why they have bulldozers out on fire lines. And kind of hard to express, really, in words, but the winds were blowing so hard, you know, you're running to hit spot fires all over your property. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: When did you know that you were safe? JEFF EVANS: The next day. Actually, no, that's not so. That evening - in fact, that evening, I took a ride up the road, up Hoffman Road. And there were five cars parked in the middle of the road. And that struck me so odd - that why would they park their car in the middle of the road, and there's no people? So I got out of my truck. And I looked into the one of the windows of one of the vehicles. And there's two puppies in the car. So I grabbed the dogs. I put them in my truck. I went to the next vehicle. And it's like, every vehicle had one or two dogs in it. One of them had, like, six dogs. And ah, I just - I thank - I don't know - I feel so fortunate that I drove up the road at that moment. Or those dogs would have died, I'm fairly confident. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you realized that you and your parents were safe. Your house was going to be spared. And you had now rescued these dogs, taken them back home with you. But who else was there? I mean, you mentioned a couple other neighbors had stayed. JEFF EVANS: Yeah. These are all 5- and 10-acre parcels. So there's a bit of distance between homes. And we've got Joe Wilkins (ph), Fred and Sally Hugg (ph) and Steve and Virginia Wildblood (ph). They. Live just over the hill from me. And it was just us. And there was a couple of people I didn't recognize that were out there fighting the fire, too. I don't know where they came from, don't know who they were. They might have been visiting some of my neighbors. But I've never asked the questions. I've been a little bit busy, you know? RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Busy, right. Do you guys have enough food? Do you have clean water? JEFF EVANS: Well, we're operating on generator power, which takes gasoline to run in my particular case. And I've gotten emails from people from Portland to Sacramento that live here that had to evacuate. And they're emailing me instructions on how to break into their house without actually breaking anything just so that I can rob their pantry and take their gas and their propane. Incredible people. Incredible people. You know, one case, I got an email last night. He says, hey, I saw one of the pictures you took of my house that doesn't exist anymore. And he says, and I noticed in the picture there's a red gas can on the side of my small trailer. It's full of gas. It's yours. But what I didn't have the heart to tell him was I took the picture, and then I stole the gas can. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You'd already done it. JEFF EVANS: Yeah. I'd already done it 'cause I've got to survive. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. JEFF EVANS: Plus, I - the conditions for me changed when I inherited 11 dogs. So now I can't leave. I mean, I have the ability to leave. I can go out. But then I can't come back. They won't let you past the roadblocks again. And by that point, my - you know, the conditions of my world changed pretty dramatically. I can't leave with 11 dogs. So I stayed here. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you've got a lot going on and a lot of responsibilities. And yet it is Thanksgiving. Is there a particular way you're going to mark it? JEFF EVANS: You know, that's a good question. And somebody asked me that yesterday. And I hadn't really entertained that thought. I did this morning. I was talking to mom and dad. And we're not going anywhere. So our Thanksgiving is just going to be doing the things I'm doing right now every day. That's not as depressing of an idea as it might seem. I know Thanksgiving is a big deal. But my conditions of life have changed. And this is where I am, and that's what I have available to me. So I'm just going to keep doing what I do. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jeff Evans in Concow, Calif., thank you so much for talking with us. JEFF EVANS: Oh, certainly. My pleasure. Thank you very much.

A wall of flames prevented Jeff Evans from evacuating the California town of Concow during the Camp Fire. He tells Rachel Martin how he survived and how he has spent his days since.

Eine Flammenwand hinderte Jeff Evans während des Lagerfeuers daran, die kalifornische Stadt Concow zu evakuieren. Er erzählt Rachel Martin, wie er überlebt hat und wie er seitdem seine Tage verbracht hat.

大火使杰夫·埃文斯无法从加州康考镇撤离。他告诉瑞秋·马丁他是如何活下来的，以及从那以后他是如何度过他的日子的。

IRA FLATOW, host: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I am Ira Flatow. IRA FLATOW, host: When you think of the Texas-Mexico border, you probably think about the desert, the border fence, immigration. But does art ever come to mind? Well, in today's debates about the border, you don't often hear about this. But the borderlands are a treasure trove of archaeological history. Along the Rio Grande, the river that separates Texas and Mexico, in hidden rock shelters, under cliff overhangs, you can find hundreds of mysterious drawings of humans and animals. The area has one of the highest concentrations of archaic rock art in all of North America. I bet you didn't know that. IRA FLATOW, host: But the people who painted them were not the tribes we think from the old Westerns and history class. They lived in the area long before the Comanches or the Apaches ever came through. The art is not hundreds, but thousands of years old. And my next guest says this is some of the oldest religious art in North America. And archaeologists on both sides of the border are studying these sites to piece together who created the art and why. IRA FLATOW, host: Let me introduce my guest. Dr. Solveig Turpin is a retired archaeologist who has studied the rock art in the region for decades. She's a former director of the Borderlands Archaeological Research Unit at the University of Texas at Austin. She's author of the book "The Indigenous Art of Coahuila," about rock art in Northern Mexico. She joins us here at the Witte Museum in San Antonio, which has a terrific collection of the artwork in the museum. If you're coming to San Antonio, stop at the Witte and take a look at it. Thank you for joining us. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Thank you. IRA FLATOW, host: I don't think people have ever heard about this, outside of your work, you know? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Well, it's become more - better known over the years. About 20 years go, we had a world conference here at the Witte Museum, and people came from all over the world. And it provided the first exposure... IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: ...to the greater world. IRA FLATOW, host: Well, I was up at the Witte in the second floor, and I invite everybody to go up there and take a look at it. And I was looking at the artwork, and it's hard to - as a layperson, I can't describe it. So how would you describe what the artwork looks like? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Well, there's various styles of artwork out there, which is one of our great boons, that we have a lot of rock art in a relatively contained area. And you can detect four prehistoric styles that are relatively stacked one upon each other, and then a historic one that comes after that, which is obvious, because of the European - in fact, longhorns, to get back to our subject... IRA FLATOW, host: The panels(ph) show up there. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yes, yes. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: They had a great fascination with domestic animals. And so the longhorn was perpetuated on rock shelter walls. IRA FLATOW, host: And, often, I noticed in the early style, they show a medicine man or a religious figure in there. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: The focus of the earliest rock art - which we assume is between three to 4,000 years old - is a religious practitioner. And he's commonly called a shaman, and that's created great sturme und drang in the art world because there's arguments over whether it is or isn't. But for convenience sake, it's a central figure. He's endowed with animal attributes, and he's armed with weapons like spear throwers. It's a - he's in the process of becoming an animal, or the animal - acquiring animal attributes. And so he's an animistic figure. IRA FLATOW, host: Mm-hmm. Some of these figures are on our website at sciencefriday.com, if you'd like to take a look at them before you get to the Witte. There's also what seems to be a crucifix, but it's not, is it, there? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: No, it's not. It's the ascending figure, with his arms spread out in that classic pose that seems to denote a religious transformation for - in many religions outside of this. So when they're showing that, it's the human with his outspread arms. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting. So when I looked through enough of them, some of those figures looked like they had, you know, fuzz on them like they might be - what do you call the cacti that grow with the arms... Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Prickly pears? IRA FLATOW, host: No, the cacti with the arms on them. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Oh, saguaros. IRA FLATOW, host: Saguaros. Almost like that were incorporated into some of those figures. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: But we don't have saguaro cactus. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. I think it looks like it could have been. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Actually, what that fuzz probably is is fur that's showing the animal transformation, because the human is growing. He's got panther ears. He'll have a tail, wings, feathers, fangs, claws. It's just showing that he is in that mid-zone between human and animal. IRA FLATOW, host: And how has the art survived for all these thousands of years there? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Well, it's got a great deal to do with the climate and the fact that they paint them in dry rock shelters, where they're sheltered by the curvature of the rock. But - this is a pretty obvious statement, but limestone is porous. And when the water seeps down and comes to the surface and evaporates, it leaves a film, and that film covers the pigment, and so it's actually preserved behind a cloudy film of mineral. IRA FLATOW, host: Oh, so we don't see that? We don't see that... Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: You will in a cross-section. We have cross-sectioned pieces and you can see. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. We have a gentleman in the audience who'd like to ask a question. JAY BROWN: Yes. Thank you. I'm Jay Brown, and I live in Shiner, Texas. And I'm really interested in your topic. I'm wondering, have you found or are you aware of any other sites besides just the trans-Pecos area, the Big Bend area? Is there anything, like, maybe in central Texas or east Texas or north Texas, the rock part? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: There's a few site in central Texas. There's hardly any in east Texas because the climate just isn't conducive to their preservation. There's quite a few in the panhandle, but most of those are petroglyphs as opposed to paintings. So there's a lot of rock art just outside the lower Pecos. There's a great enclave out around El Paso that you may know, Hueco Tanks State Park. JAY BROWN: Right, right. Sure, Sure. Right. IRA FLATOW, host: Well, thank you for that question. JAY BROWN: Yeah. Thank you. IRA FLATOW, host: The ones that were talking about on the Rio Grande, are these the same people, are they different people who migrated in and out to create the drawings? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: They're sequences done by different people, and that what makes it such an interesting archeological problem because you can see the changes in world view. The early people are very ornate and decorative and religious and ritualistic, and the ones that follow are much more mundane. They're showing everyday life. And so you see that the object of the art was different. IRA FLATOW, host: Right. So, do we know what happened to these people (unintelligible)? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: We have some pretty good ideas, if we look at a great climatic model that's been developed for the area, that there were movements of people in and out in front of different climatic waves. And they - people used to say, they disappeared as well. All of a sudden, these people just vanished. IRA FLATOW, host: Like the Anasazi. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: They fled somewhere. We don't know where they went. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yeah. But most of the time, I think that as the climate became drier, they moved south into Mexico. And, as it became more climate, they moved back north into Texas. IRA FLATOW, host: Very interesting. Yes, we have open microphones here in the audience if you'd like to come up and share your views about the art. Maybe you've seen it. Are these sites open to the public? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: There are some sites that are open. There's Seminole Canyon State Historical Park. The Rock Art Foundation, which is based here in San Antonio, takes tours to various sites out there. And the Texas Parks and Wildlife is just now acquiring a lot of land on the Devils River that will be open for scheduled tours. IRA FLATOW, host: And do we know how they actually painted the stuff? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Oh, yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: Because some of them is pretty big, isn't it? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yeah. We have a pretty - we have got shells that they use as a little palette that are stained with paint. We know they ground mineral paints to make the pigments. They're made of hematite, limonite. And we have brushes that have pigment on them that they used to apply it. Sometimes they finger-painted. You can tell the designs in the finger painting. Other times, they held it up and blew dry a pigment around it to make a negative image. IRA FLATOW, host: No kidding. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: So they had a lot of ways of painting. IRA FLATOW, host: But, so they were having fun with this stuff. The serious shaman stuff, some of it was interesting, experimental stuff. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Well, I think it was an information system, not unlike radio or television or newspapers are today. So, yeah, it had an entertainment quality to it. IRA FLATOW, host: Is there any evidence that kids were doing any of this stuff? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: No, I don't believe so. I think it was much more of a - even though some it looks rather humorous to us, I don't think it was - they considered it funny. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting. Yes, sir. JAY BROWN: Hi. Christopher Brown, San Antonio. You mentioned about migratory patterns and possible relationships, and I was wondering if we could take that a step further. Did these people associate or become or live at the same time as, say, Mayans and Aztecs or other Indian tribes in Mexico and Central and South America? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Well, they were definitely contemporaneous with the forerunners, of course, of it, but direct contact is probably not the answer to the similarities between the styles. I mean, people see similarities between the emphasis on, perhaps, a feline character, and that'll appear in Olmec art and it'll appear in the art of Chavin in Peru, just like it appears on the Lower Pecos. But these are the outpourings of a basic religious system, and they don't necessarily mean that there was any kind of contact between the people. JAY BROWN: Okay. Thank you. IRA FLATOW, host: And how widespread along the river would this be? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: It runs about 90 miles. IRA FLATOW, host: 90 miles. Could there be other undiscovered places that... Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: I don't think so. It's been pretty intensive on the north side of the river. On the south side of the river in Mexico, yes, there's hundreds of sites that haven't been recorded over there. IRA FLATOW, host: Because? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: The terrain is extremely difficult. There aren't roads. You can't do your normal walk around looking for them. So most of what we know has been reported to us by cavers, ranchers, cowboys, people that have a familiarity with the land. IRA FLATOW, host: And I'm sure they're afraid to go to these places because of the violence in the regions there now. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Well, everything that we did that's reported, we did during a time when there was still easy access or relatively easy access. Research now has come to a complete halt. Nobody is brave enough or foolish enough... IRA FLATOW, host: Really? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: ...to go over there. So there is no work going on at all in the north of Mexico. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. So, there's all this stuff waiting to be discovered that no one can get to. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yes. And then there are difficulties, too, now with the Homeland Security approaches because you can't just go over there. You have to have a passport. For a Mexican student to come to the United States, they have to have a passport. So there's a lot of bureaucratic paperwork that's now put between it and the research itself. IRA FLATOW, host: It wasn't like the old days. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: No. Never is, is it? IRA FLATOW, host: No. Long pause. Yes, ma'am? NANCY: I'm Nancy from San Antonio. And I wish you would tell about how in more modern times, fast forwarding, a local photographer was hunting and discovered the rock art. And I was wondering if before that time, the rock art was known to anyone but the property owners? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yes. It began actually being publicized in the 1930s. There was a super draftsperson, Forrest Kirkland, who took upon himself the task of recording all the rock art in Texas. And his work was published in increments and finally in a book by the University of Texas Press. And then there was another book in 1938 called "The Rock Art" or the "Picture-Writing of Texas Indians." So it's out there, but it didn't really hit the newsstands, so to speak... IRA FLATOW, host: Right. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: ...until Forrest Kirkland and Bill Newcomb put out "The Rock Art of Texas Indians" in 1967. IRA FLATOW, host: Mm-hmm. As I say, you can see a slideshow of a lot of his art work on our website at sciencefriday.com. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR, talking with Dr. Solveig Turpin, who is a retired archaeologist and author of "The Indigenous Art of Coahuila." I'm pronouncing that correctly... Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Mm-hmm. IRA FLATOW, host: ...I hope, because I never get any name right. So it wouldn't be a gift if I got your name right here in this program. And it's rock art in northern Mexico. And it's quite interesting - can you give us an idea what it's like to be an archaeologist out there? What, you know, I hear stories of other archaeologists, and it's almost like you got to be nuts to go out into the badlands here. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Well, yeah. You probably might say eccentric. IRA FLATOW, host: OK. I give you eccentric. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Eccentric. IRA FLATOW, host: OK. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: It's a very liberating thing. IRA FLATOW, host: Liberating. It sounds like... Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yeah. There is very little contact with, quote, "civilization," at least in those days, and you'd go camp out, so you had all the things that people like to do on vacation. Let's go camping at the park. That was what we did in our work. So we were having our vacation while we were working. IRA FLATOW, host: Mm-hmm. And is it basically on your back looking around, digging up? I mean, or do you have to open up caves, boulders, push them aside? How do you get into these things? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: A lot - it's a lot of climbing. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: An awful lot of climbing because that rock shelter will be up there and somebody will see it and say, oh, look over there. And you'll go, oh no. IRA FLATOW, host: No, you look over there. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yeah. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: You go up there and holler if there's anything. IRA FLATOW, host: And take this stick to get those mosquitoes or whatever... Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: And some of the pictures that are on exhibit upstairs here in the Witte Museum were gotten in Mexico with tremendous burdens, hauled up hills for Jim Zintgraff, who was the Witte photographer at the time. And he loved old equipment, heavy old tripods, none of this... IRA FLATOW, host: He had to take them with him. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yeah, flash bulbs. And so all of this would be in a pack and be carried up there so he could take his pictures. IRA FLATOW, host: Right. Thought he was Ansel Adams... Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: Yes. One quick question here. Hello. I was wondering when one group would leave and another group would come, would they, like, incorporate what was previously drawn and sort of add to it or they just do away and say our style is better, so we're just going to draw something over your art? Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: In the beginning with the very ornate art that is so impressive, I mean, the figures can be 12 feet tall and reach 18 feet off the ceiling. They're monumental, and they're impressive. And rarely did anybody who came after that do anything to damage them. It was though they were created by the ancients, and we're going to revere them. But they did sometimes use them as a background. And it's almost comical because they will - you will have a, quote, "shaman" figure with a hollow body and inside it will be six little dancers. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: It won't have damaged the older painting, but it will have used it as a framing mechanism. But the later style - also, there is a great deal of scraping off of paint pigment from a lot of these. And it isn't necessarily vandalism because they would take this paint and mix it into their puberty ceremonies and to drinks and things to gain the power of the ancestor. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. Wow. Thank you very much for sharing this with us. And as I say, it's right here in the Witte. If you want to go up to the second floor and see this great exhibit over the artwork that they have collected over the years, you're more than welcome to do that. Dr. Solveig Turpin is the former director of the Borderlands Archaeological Research Unit at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you again. Dr. SOLVEIG TURPIN: Thank you. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. And as I say, go to our website and see a slideshow of the photo of the rock art until you can get here to the Witte.

Thousands of years ago, Native American groups painted art under cliff overhangs along the Rio Grande. The arid climate preserved hundreds of these vivid pieces. Archaeologist Solveig Turpin discusses what the art reveals about changes in climate and the social structure of early Americans, and why it has become difficult to study.

Vor Tausenden von Jahren malten indianische Gruppen Kunstwerke unter Felsüberhängen entlang des Rio Grande. Das trockene Klima konservierte Hunderte dieser lebendigen Kunstwerke. Die Archäologin Solveig Turpin erörtert, was die Kunst über die Veränderungen des Klimas und die Sozialstruktur der frühen Amerikaner verrät und warum es schwierig geworden ist, sie zu untersuchen.

几千年前，美洲土著群体在格兰德河沿岸悬崖峭壁下作画。干旱的气候保存了数百件这样栩栩如生的作品。考古学家索尔维格·特平讨论艺术作品如何揭示气候和早期美洲人的社会结构的变化，以及为什么现在研究起来很困难。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: On today's Roundtable, Democratic presidential candidates held their first debate last night. We'll see who stood out. And the high court reconsiders campaign finance. To discuss these topics and more, I'm joined by Dr. Mary Frances Berry, professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania, Joe Davidson, an editor at the Washington Post, and Nat Irvin, professor of future studies at Wake Forest University and a columnist for the Winston-Salem Journal. So hello, everybody. And let's… Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Hello. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Hello. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …talk about the eight Democratic presidential hopefuls who gathered at South Carolina State University yesterday. The first debate of the '08 season, even though it's still '07, and the earliest official campaign start in history. And, of course, South Carolina State is a historically black university. African-Americans are expected to make up half of the state's Democratic primary voters but it's also a conservative state. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And, you know, last night, the candidates seemed really caught in the crosswinds of politics. Let's start out with a little exchange between Senator Hillary Clinton and former Senator John Edwards, who both voted for the war in Iraq. Edwards has made a point of apologizing for his vote, Clinton has not. And last night, Edwards tried to turn that to his advantage. Mr. JOHN EDWARDS (Former Democratic Senator, North Carolina): Better claim than anyone else who voted for this war has to search themselves and decide whether they believe they voted the right way; if so, they can so support their vote. If they believe they didn't, I think it's important to be straightforward and honest. Senator HILLARY CLINTON (Democrat, New York): I take responsibility for my vote. Obviously, I did as good a job I could at the time. It was a sincere vote based on the information available to me. And I've said many times that if I knew then what I now know, I would not have voted that way. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Is that good enough, Mary, is that statement that Senator Hillary Clinton has said again and again, that I voted the way that I had to vote given the evidence that I had at the time, or are some Democrats looking for more? Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Some Democrats are looking for more from her and from all the other candidates who were there last night, except Kucinich and Gravel. Some Democrats want everybody to say that it was a mistake, they apologize, and now let's withdraw and let's not fund the troops. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): But I think for most people the answer is no worse than the answer that Edwards and the other candidates gave who did vote for the war, too, and at least it is consistent. And I think that most people in the United States knowing what we knew at the time, we might have been suspicious but we didn't know very much. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Obama comes off okay because he wasn't in the Senate at the time, so he can say I didn't support it. But he didn't have the same information the senators have. So I think it's good enough for the primary season. And if she should get the nomination - and I say if because anybody up there could get it - the nomination, it will I think serve her well during the general election. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Before I move on to everybody else we have, tell me a little bit, very briefly, about Representative Dennis Kucinich and former Senator Mike Gravel and how they portray themselves in the race. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): I thought that they were tenacious and funny. And I thought Gravel was a little bit on the fringe, not just on the stage but in the discussion. But I thought Kucinich was forceful. Of course he's not going anywhere in the campaign, but I thought that he was forceful. And they added a note of comparison. You could compare everybody else to them. So that was, I thought, important and useful. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So I heard both of you guys laugh. Joe, were you the one laughing first? Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): No, I was the one laughing second. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Okay. Well, then I'm going to have to go with Nat, who was laughing first. Please, tell me what you were laughing about. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Because I think what Mary, you know, when you think about the other two candidates - Kucinich and Grovel and you look at the… Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Did you say Grovel or Gravel? Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Gravel, I - well, okay, Mary. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): I thought it was Gravell(ph). Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Gravell? Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Gravell? Oh, okay. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Yeah. Well, anyway… Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Apparently he's not the best known of all the candidates. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Right. But I thought, you know, it does add a certain amount of honesty. You know, there's always a part of a conversation that you really wish people could have when you're talking about something as serious as, you know, health care, national policy, debates about the war in Iraq, or whatever the matters might be. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): There's always a part of our discussion that seems to be so formal, so off limits, but yet these two guys seemed to be able - at least last night they seemed to be free and clear and able to say what's really on a lot of America's mind. And to that extent, I thought it's always - I think it's good to have the, quote, "fringe candidates" who forced the mainstream candidates to have to respond in some way. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): And I think that if you look at the questions that were asked from the people in the audience when that time came around it also was a sort of a refreshing part of a debate where, you know, it's not the prescribed answers that you get. You sort of get a chance to air the part of yourself, as I said, that you really wish people would talk about. But because people are trying to be safe as the mainstream candidates are, they wouldn't dare face some of the things that, perhaps, Kucinich would say. For example, with the impeachment issue of… Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Right. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): …Cheney. Everybody probably thinks the same thing but they wouldn't dare say it. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Joe, let me actually go on and play a clip from another one of the big candidates, Senator Barack Obama. He referenced the fact that, earlier yesterday, the Senate passed an Iraq funding bill. It provides strict timetables for U.S. troop withdrawals. Here is a little bit of Barack Obama. Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democrat, Illinois): We were one signature away or 16 votes away from ending this war, one signature away. Now if the president is not going to sign the bill that has been sent to him, then what we have to do is gather up 16 votes in order to override his veto. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. I want you to talk to me, Joe, about overriding the veto. First of all, is that realistic? But also, is this a good way for the senator to position himself as someone who is taking a stand and trying to make policy in Washington? Is this something that's going to resonate with Democratic voters? Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Well, on the veto threat, I don't think the Democrats now expect to get those 16 votes to override the veto, and they certainly aren't going to get that one signature from the president. But I do think that this is way that Barack Obama, as well as the Democrats in general, can position themselves in opposition to the president's policy in Iraq. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): And so by stressing how close they are, the 16 votes. It doesn't sound like much, even though they probably won't get it, the one signature, which they certainly won't get. It makes them seem that they are representing the vast majority of the American people. And in fact polling indicates that the majority of the American people do support the Democratic Party's position on this issue. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): So I think it's a way, good way for Barack Obama to set himself up in opposition to the president and on the side of an issue that has the backing of most Americans. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. In case you're just tuning in, this is NPR's NEWS & NOTES. I am Farai Chideya. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We are speaking with Joe Davidson, an editor at the Washington Post, Nat Irvin, professor of future studies at Wake Forest University and columnist for the Winston-Salem Journal, and Mary Frances Berry, professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Nat, I'm going to turn back to you for a completely different topic, still in the realm of politics. The Supreme Court is considering campaign ad reforms. There's been all of this debate over the real implications of the McCain-Feingold Act. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And in 2003, the high court upheld the bulk of the act, which really was meant to sort of clean out politics, you know, the influence of money in politics. But there's also this question of whether funding issue ads is a form of free speech. And if unions and corporations want to fund these ads that don't come from a party, don't come from a candidate, but still definitely have a slant on them, what are the restrictions on that? Nat, how do you think this fight is going to play out? Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Gosh, you know, Farai, I'm just thinking about what are my own views on this. All of sudden here I find myself, am I in the same - am I on the same position with the Bush administration on this? You know, this idea of… Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): That's a scary thought. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, there's a lot of different… Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): But it's a very… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …fault lines. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): (unintelligible) a fine line here. This whole, you know, the court is reviewing this because the way that it came up was the distinction between whether or not you mentioned a candidate's name in a primary, 30 days, 60 days - I guess with the general election, whether you mention a candidate's name in the ad versus whether or not a candidate's name is associated with a particular policy issue. That's, you know, that's such a distinction as to - you're dancing on the head of a pin here. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): And I frankly don't know how the court is going to rule on this. And second, I don't know even after it is decided by the court and, you know, this attempt, you know, there's some thinking that Alito is going to cast a vote going to reverse this ruling. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): But I frankly don't think even after that is done that we will have decided anything. We're in some new territory here, and I think we may be trying to legislate ourselves into - back ourselves into a corner where we really don't know what it is that we're actually going to do. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, just to give you an example. I mean, you hinted at this, some of the fault lines. So the Bush administration is defending the law, backed by some prominent former ACLU - American Civil Liberties Union - officials. This is according to a recent article by Jess Braven, "Court Weighs Campaign Ads." and then on the other side, the Republican National Committee and the ACLU itself. So it's like you have people who you would think would be on the same side that are really split on this. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mary, are people going to sort of tear this issue apart in terms of - these are big, you know, 800-pound political gorillas that are weighing in on this… Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Right. Right. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And there's millions of dollars at stake here. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Right. And actually the fault lines from the beginning were sort of strange because it's McCain-Feingold - that's legislation. Russ Feingold, who is about as far away from John McCain in terms of politics as anything else. And the facts involved Senator Feingold's reelection, which he won. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): So on the one hand, I support, you know, and I think that we should support free expression, and I'm a purist when it comes to the First Amendment. And even money, having money and being able to use it is a freedom of expression. But there's this desire to try to minimize the influence of money in politics. I don't think it's ever going to happen. I don't think whatever legislation is passed it will be able to achieve that because it's like, you know, water going through cracks. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): You'll find some cracks somewhere to get through. That's the way money goes. But on this specific case that's before the court, I think this idea of saying the context in which the ad was placed tells them that it had to be about Senator Feingold. I think that goes a little bit too far. And with the new justices on the court, I suspect what they're going to do is to say that that is too limiting. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Joe, it strikes me that so much of this debate is really about the millions of dollars in campaign financing that really flows towards television advertising. It really is the key issue here. And some people have suggested, and some states actually have, public financing. So is that a possible solution to this, more public financing of elections and more restrictions on private contributions? Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Well, I think clearly that is a possible solution, and there have been people who have advocating that for quite sometime. And various states around the country have moved more in that direction than other places. I think, though, that this recent fundraising by the Democratic candidates, though, shows why many of the major candidates I don't think would be in favor of it. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): I mean, when you have both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton raising over $20 million, you know, it's so early in the campaign, it's really, I mean it was record shattering. And then they can use this money however they see fit because they raised it. It doesn't come from public coffers. They don't have the same restrictions on them that they would if it came from public financing. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): But clearly public financing would allow, I think, a broader spectrum of people to get involved in these races, and I think that's the argument that people who favor public financing push, because politics continues to be seen as something that only the rich or those who know rich people can do, no matter where you came from. I mean, if you come from John Edwards's humble background that he likes to talk about, if you came from a Barack Obama's interesting background. You know, no matter where you come from, in the end you have to get a lot of money. And so those who advocate public financing argue that public financing would level the playing field. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): But it has to be only public financing. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Right. Yeah. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): You can't have an opt out provision. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): And we're doing that. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): If you have opt out, people will just opt out and go on. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Opt out. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): So you have to restrict everybody to using the money that's available. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): And that's why it hasn't happened yet. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Let's move on to one last topic. It is commencement season all around the country, folks lining up to give speeches and people looking for advice. Brigham Young University hosted the vice president at it's commencement speaker yesterday and the school presented him with an honorary doctorate of public service. Here is what he had to say. Vice President RICHARD CHENEY: But you, too, may face some disappointing turns of your own, times when you fall short knowing you could have done better. And when that happens, don't give up or let your doubts get the best of you. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Those are some very candid and humble words from a man who is often seen as just stiff upper lip, takes no prisoners. Does that surprise you, Mary? Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): No, he has a very good speechwriter. And it is commencement, and universities invite commencement speakers who they think will get them some public notice, which is what they got with Cheney, and people who they would like to say that these are models, role models for our students. And I guess this is what BYU thinks Cheney is. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): So I think that his speech content, at least the part that we heard, doesn't have anything to do with the real Cheney. It has to do with what he thought you ought to say in a commencement speech to a bunch of students and convey the message, and that's being given all around. So I guess… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We have to… Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): …BYU got what they intended to get. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Very briefly, Joe and then Nat, lots of protests on the campus although it's a conservative campus, a lot of Mormon students for example. Was that a surprise? Joe? Nat? Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Well, I don't if what I would say it was lots. I think the figure I read was about a hundred protesters. It is significant though because BYU is in the reddest county in the reddest state, and so any level of protest I think was deemed significant. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Nat? Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Yeah. I agree with you, Joe. And I think that probably at this point, people are tired of Cheney and, you know, you sort of just add more to what is, I think, a terrible legacy by just adding, as I think BYU would like the students wanted - I'd say they wanted this commencement to end as peacefully and as quietly and perhaps as unnoticed as possible. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, we noticed it. And on that note, no more time. Nat Irvin, professor of future studies at Wake Forest University and columnist for the Winston-Salem Journal; Mary Frances Berry, professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania; and Joe Davidson, an editor at the Washington Post. They were both at NPR headquarters in Washington, D.C. So thanks for your time, everybody. Professor MARY FRANCES BERRY (History, University of Pennsylvania): Thank you. Mr. JOE DAVIDSON (Editor, Washington Post): Thank you. Professor NAT IRVIN (Future Studies, Wake Forest University): Thank you, Farai. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And as always, if you'd like to comment on any of the topics you've heard on the Roundtable, you can call us at 202-408-3330. That's 202-408-3330. Or you can send us an e-mail. Just log on to npr.org and click on Contact Us. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Next on NEWS & NOTES: Gearing up for the NFL draft, plus remembering two jazz greats.

Guests discuss Thursday's debate between Democratic candidates for president; and Vice President Dick Cheney's commencement speech at Brigham Young University. Joining the panel: Mary Frances Berry, professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania; Joe Davidson, an editor at The Washington Post; Nat Irvin, professor of future studies at Wake Forest University.

Gäste diskutieren Debatte zwischen demokratischen Präsidentschaftskandidaten am Donnerstag; und die Eröffnungsrede von Vizepräsidenten Dick Cheney an der Universität Brigham Young. Dem Gremium beitreten: Mary Frances Berry, Professorin für Geschichte an der Universität Pennsylvania; Joe Davidson, Redakteur bei der Washington Post; Nat Irvin, Professor für Zukunftsforschung an der Universität Wake Forest.

观众讨论了民主党总统候选人周四的辩论；杨百翰大学副校长迪克·切尼在毕业典礼上发表演讲。专家咨询组成员：宾夕法尼亚大学历史学教授玛丽·弗朗西斯·贝瑞、《华盛顿邮报》编辑乔·戴维森、维克森林大学未来研究教授纳蒂尔文。

DAVID GREENE, HOST: Many of us have something going on in our lives that could shape how we vote on November 6. Maybe it's a family crisis, a pending job change, maybe the birth of a child. Over the next three days, our co-host Rachel Martin will bring us conversations about personal questions or anxieties that shape election decisions. The first is with Isabelle Simon from Lauderdale-By-The-Sea, Fla. Isabelle lived in Florida for eight years. She has two kids - an older daughter and a 24-year-old son named Marco. When he was 18, Marco injured his back on the job at a grocery store. He was prescribed Percocet. And even though he was living with his mom, Isabelle had no idea that her son had become addicted. Here's her conversation with Rachel Martin. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: So when did you figure out that this was a problem? ISABELLE SIMON: When I realized he was stealing from me - at first, I was thinking, hey, there's like $20 less in my wallet. And I confronted him about it. And he of course denied. But it got to the point where he would hug me good night and then, with one hand, go in my purse, you know, while I was reading in bed. You know, it was very heartbreaking at that point when I realized what was going on. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Was there a rock bottom for him? ISABELLE SIMON: Not right away, no. This went on for a while. My father had passed away during this time period. And through getting through the grief of that, I didn't realize that my son knew my dad's ATM password and emptied out the bank account. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Wow, your father's - his grandfather's bank account. ISABELLE SIMON: My father's, yeah - because I was the executrix of that estate. And yet he was just - whatever he could get his hands on at that time, he was just going full-bore. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: So he ended up moving to Baltimore from Florida, right? ISABELLE SIMON: Yes. I had friends in Hagerstown, Md., where we had lived for a short period of time. And he agreed to go into rehab. And they said the best help would be in Baltimore. And that's how he ended up in Baltimore because they had a lot of programs for people. And after I dropped him off, he didn't even last two days. And he got kicked out because he was combative. He did not want to be there, and he ended up on the street. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: He was homeless. ISABELLE SIMON: Yeah, he was homeless for almost three years. And, you know, there's only so much one person can do. But I felt if I gave up on him, then he would have nobody. It was the lowest point of my life with my child. I mean, I was losing him, and I could tell I was losing him. And then somewhere along the way, I heard something that just resonated with me. It said a mother can only be as happy as her unhappiest child. And I told Marco that. And he cried. And I think maybe that planted a seed because after that I could see that he wanted to do some things to get better. He's actually enrolled into a methadone program. And I honestly don't even know what the catalyst for this whole thing was - what it took for him to want to say enough is enough. But he's healthy. He's gained 30 pounds. He looks good. He wants to stay clean. And he's doing all the right things. He's trying to get his GED now. It's a process. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: So it's hard to think about what's happening in Washington or how lawmakers can effect change in any life - but especially in a life like yours where you and your son have endured this. But as you think about voting, how would this experience affect your thinking about the choices that you make? ISABELLE SIMON: There are so many programs that are out there, but not everyone can afford it. And why did my son have to go back to Baltimore to get the help he needed to get better? You know, why couldn't it have been in my home state of Florida? Why did we not have the ability to get the help? RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Are candidates talking about this issue in Florida? ISABELLE SIMON: No, they're not. Right now, we're so polarized - for I think ridiculous reasons - and we're not focusing on our own people and what our own people need to make it through the day sometimes. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Are you talking about like President Trump and allegations against him, the Russia investigation? All that stuff feels really far afield to you? ISABELLE SIMON: Actually, I voted for President Trump. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Did you? ISABELLE SIMON: I did not like the way the country was going. And I wanted to make a change. I was willing to try a change. And I still don't think the president's role in this is as much an issue as our local governments. Like, why is it state to state so different? Why is there help available in one area and not in another area? Why can't it be uniform? I look at the realities of our life. What candidate will give the access to the programs our people need - health care, drug counseling? Who will support that? And to me, I really don't care what party that is. I just want it to be someone who will say, OK, this is my cause, and I want to fix this problem. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: That means, Isabelle, you're who everyone wants. President Trump especially wants to keep your vote with the GOP even though he's not on the ballot in these midterms. In general, are you satisfied with how he has done the job in the past couple of years? ISABELLE SIMON: I'm very satisfied with his performance on the job. I wish he would get off Twitter though because that is an unnecessary - ah, I don't even know how to verbalize that. I just think it takes away, and it feeds into all the hatred we have right now and all the discord - it's like if he would just do his job. The economy's doing well. I believe for the things he stands for. He wants what's best for America, and I really truly believe that. But he can't help himself but to take criticism, and he just blows up and goes on Twitter with a rant. And that takes away from all the good he's trying to do in other areas. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Lastly, I'll just close by asking you how things are between you and Marco right now. I mean, I understand he's in a good place. How is your relationship? ISABELLE SIMON: It's as strong as it's ever been. I've never given up on my son. I've always loved him. He knows I would do anything for him - that I've got his back till my last breath. RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Isabelle, thank you so much for talking with us and sharing your story. ISABELLE SIMON: You're welcome. Thank you. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Rachel Martin speaking there to Isabelle Simon.

Rachel Martin talks to Isabelle Simon, whose son has been treated for opioid addiction. She plans on voting for candidates who support affordable health care and drug counseling, regardless of party.

Rachel Martin spricht mit Isabelle Simon, deren Sohn wegen Opioidsucht behandelt wird. Sie plant, für Kandidaten zu stimmen, die eine erschwingliche Gesundheitsversorgung und Drogenberatung unterstützen, statt von der Partei abhängig zu sein.

雷切尔·马丁与伊莎贝尔·西蒙进行交谈，伊莎贝尔·西蒙的儿子因阿片类药物成瘾而接受治疗。她打算投票给那些支持平价医疗和药物咨询服务的候选人，不考虑其党性。

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: One of the factories where GM is ending production is the Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly Plant. It straddles the border of Detroit and the city of Hamtramck, and it has a complicated history with both, a history that goes back to the early '80s, when General Motors wanted to build a plant and settled on a densely populated, working-class neighborhood. That neighborhood was bulldozed. As Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan said yesterday, we moved thousands of people out, hundreds of businesses, six churches and a hospital to create that assembly plant. He called the decision to shut it three decades later extremely disappointing. Duggan was quoted in the Detroit Free Press. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And to pick up the story, we are joined by a former reporter for the paper, Bill McGraw. Bill McGraw, welcome. BILL MCGRAW: Thank you. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So this neighborhood that was bulldozed was called Poletown. Tell me a little bit more about it, what it looked like back around, say, 1980. BILL MCGRAW: Well, the neighborhood was about 2 1/2 miles northeast of downtown. It was an old industrial neighborhood. And by the early 1980s, it was about half African-American and half white. And most of the whites were first-in-generation Poles. But there were also Albanians, people from the former Yugoslavia and Yemenis. And frankly, it was a pretty unusual neighborhood, for Detroit at that time, in its diversity. It was a declining neighborhood - there's no doubt about that - because it was both a working-class neighborhood and kind of a working-poor neighborhood. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Now, the people who lived there in Poletown were not happy about this, to put it mildly. This huge fight breaks out between the city and the neighborhood residents, which I gather peaked in the summer of 1981 with a sit-in at a church. What happened? BILL MCGRAW: Well, the protests were emotional, dramatic, and there were many of them. And so by the summer of 1981, they were at Immaculate Conception Church, which became sort of the headquarters for the protests. The image that was broadcast at that time were elderly Polish ladies in sensible shoes. There was 12 or 13 of them in the church doing a sit-in. And the police showed up at 5:30 in the morning. They escorted the ladies to a paddy wagon. And almost before the women were released from the police station, the bulldozers had moved in... MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Oh, wow. BILL MCGRAW: ...To knock over the church, which the city had paid the archdiocese $1.2 million for. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: How has it turned out from an employment point of view? I mean, did the plant fulfill the promise that it was going to bring a lot of jobs to Detroit - and good jobs to Detroit? BILL MCGRAW: There were good jobs. There was never as many jobs as was promised at the outset. Over the years, the workforce declined, and that was one of the complaints. It never really fulfilled the predictions of both GM and the city. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Yeah. I was just reading in your old paper, in the Free Press that there are something like 1,500 people currently employed at the plant. BILL MCGRAW: Right. And they also said that it was going to do a lot for the declining neighborhood, and that did not happen. What is left of the neighborhood now, it's a very poor neighborhood. And the main street in that area, Shane Street, is basically inert when, even in the '80s, it still was filled with restaurants and stores mainly catering to the Polish clientele. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Are there any lessons here for other neighborhoods, other cities that make sacrifices for a big company that wants to roll into town and says it's going to promise jobs? BILL MCGRAW: Well, if there are lessons, they haven't been learned in Detroit and many other cities if you look at the Amazon drama. There is a lot of development going on in downtown Detroit and Midtown Detroit these days. The city continues to offer breaks of many sorts to people who want to build in it. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So I quoted Mayor Duggan, just his reaction to the news of GM saying it's going to shut the plant. He called it extremely disappointing. What's just an average man on the street saying in Detroit? BILL MCGRAW: You know, the auto industry is such a volatile industry. And over the years, there's been so many ups and downs. Aside from the people who might be losing their jobs, I think, as usual, Detroiters are a little bit apprehensive but kind of taking this as it comes. MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Bill McGraw - he used to be a reporter for the Detroit Free Press, and he edited a book on the city's history called "The Detroit Almanac." MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Bill McGraw, thank you. BILL MCGRAW: Thank you.

General Motors' Detroit-Hamtramck plant is slated to close. NPR's Mary Louise Kelly talks with former Detroit Free Press reporter Bill McGraw about the historic Poletown neighborhood it was built in.

Das Werk Detroit-Hamtramck von General Motors soll geschlossen werden. Mary Louise Kelly von NPR spricht mit dem ehemaligen Reporter der Detroit Free Press, Bill McGraw, über das historische Stadtviertel Poletown, in dem das Werk gebaut wurde.

通用汽车在底特律的哈姆特拉米克工厂也将关闭。美国国家公共广播电台记者玛丽·路易斯·凯利采访了前底特律自由新闻记者比尔·麦格劳，介绍了这座建筑所在的历史悠久的波勒镇社区。

IRA FLATOW, host: Next up, mind your mind over math. A couple of interesting mathematics stories this week. First, it's obvious that a lot of mathematics is just learning rules, right? How do you find the least common denominator? Why you can't divide by zero. IRA FLATOW, host: But there are some parts of math that just feel intuitive, like geometry, at least sometimes it feels that way to me. And now a new study suggests that even without mathematical training, the human brain may have certain intuitions about geometry, concepts that we don't learn but may be born primed to understand. We maybe have this hard-wired, right, into our brains. IRA FLATOW, host: The study showed that Amazonian villagers with no formal math training seemed to understand these geometric concepts as well as we do, as well as we folks who go to school and study mathematics. IRA FLATOW, host: Veronique Izard is a research scientist at the French National Center for Scientific Research at Paris Descartes University in France, and she's the author of that geometry study in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. And she joins us by phone. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Izard. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): Hi, it's good to be here. IRA FLATOW, host: Welcome. Tell us about this study. What sorts of questions were you asking the indigenous people in the Amazon? Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): Oh, yes, so it's a study - I have to say that I didn't do a low enough course. I'm working with a linguist here in (unintelligible), and he goes to the Amazon every year to study these people, the Munduruku. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): And so this year, we were interested in how they understand geometry, and particularly we were interested in how they understand concepts of geometry that (unintelligible) that we can perceive, that go beyond what we can perceive, such as the idea of an infinite line or idea of lines that would never cross, lines that are parallels. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): And so the way we asked them questions about these kinds of concepts is we asked them to imagine some ideal worlds. We asked them to imagine a world where people lived, which was just, for example, very flat and going on forever and ever. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): And then we would say that on these worlds, there would be villages, and village is (unintelligible) to what we geometry-educated people think of as points. And then we would say that on this world, there will also be paths with the constraint that all the paths are just going very straight and always in front of them and that they would never end. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): And of course for us, this path corresponds to what we think of as straight lines. IRA FLATOW, host: We're going to - stick with us, Dr. Izard, because we're going to take a short break and talk about the results of your studies and how these folks who lived in the Amazon were able to have a concept of geometry as much as we folks who study the math in schools. IRA FLATOW, host: Stay with us, our number, 1-800-989-8255. You can tweet us, @scifri, @-S-C-I-F-R-I. Don't go away. We'll be right back. IRA FLATOW, host: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. IRA FLATOW, host: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. We're talking about math this segment with Veronique Izard, research scientist at the French National Center for Scientific Research, 1-800-989-8255. IRA FLATOW, host: Dr. Izard was telling us about this group of folks in the Amazon who had no experience in mathematics, right? They had never seen any math. Yet they were able to have - they sort of have an innate ability to understand geometry. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): Well, I was - I'm not sure we would call it innate, but I would say it is a universal ability to understand geometry because we don't know how people come to understand geometry. Is it innate, or is it something they learn early in life? And that's something that is still up for research. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): But yes, so we got them to imagine these imaginary worlds and ask them questions where we found that they are able to conceive the fact that there would be straight lines that are infinite, that never end, that two lines may sometimes never cross. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): So they have, for example, an understanding of lines can be parallel. IRA FLATOW, host: And did they get this ability at a certain point in their lives, at a certain age? Did they need some sort of maturity or experience to understand the concepts of geometry? Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): So in the Amazon, we only tested adults and children of age seven and more than that. And then we also tested groups of adults and children in the U.S. and in France to compare them with. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): But we also tested a fifth group, which were young children in the U.S., children aged five and six in the U.S., and we were interested in them, of course, because at that age, they haven't had education in geometry yet. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): And we actually found that these young children in the U.S. weren't doing quite as well as the Amazonians or as the older children in the U.S. and in France. So that actually tells us that if this ability is innate, actually it would be something that comes later in life, that if you can think, for example, of the beard is something that is innate but appears only in puberty, maybe geometry is just like that, that it appears only by age seven. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): Yeah, and also - sorry. IRA FLATOW, host: Go ahead, go ahead. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): Of course, there is another possibility, which would be that geometry is something that we learn before the age of seven. So maybe around five and six, children are actually on the way to learning geometry and grasping these concepts. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): That's another possibility. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting, a very fertile area of research. For those of us still struggling with simple numbers, my next guest has been investigating a condition known as dyscalculia. It's a difficulty doing arithmetic where some people have a tough time grasping the meaning of really simple numbers and how the numbers interact with each other. IRA FLATOW, host: Brian Butterworth is an emeritus professor of cognitive neuropsychology at the University College London. He's also former chair of the Center for Educational Neuroscience, and he has an article in Science this week on dyscalculia. He joins us by phone. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Butterworth. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Yes, good evening. IRA FLATOW, host: How would you define that? How simple, you know, how much of a problem is it with just simple numbers? Can you give us an example? Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Sure. One of the standard tests for dyscalculia now is just to say how many dots there are in an array, like, you know, three dots or seven dots or nine dots. And dyscalculics are bad on that test. I mean, they're slower, and they're less accurate. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): So the problem isn't just being bad at long division or multiplication tables. It seems to be a much more profound difference between dyscalculics and normally developing individuals. IRA FLATOW, host: Can people add simple numbers, like five and two and seven and 12 or something like that? Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Sure, you know, if they get enough practice. But they'll do it in a different way, and they'll do it rather slowly. So they might, for example, use their fingers where typically developing adults would not use their fingers. They'd just know that, you know, five and seven is 12. But the dyscalculics will go, well, let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and then another five, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12. So they'll be slow, and they might use a different strategy. IRA FLATOW, host: I see a lot of people doing that. Can this be an undiagnosed problem in the population? Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Well, unfortunately, I think it's very widely diagnosed, and our best estimates, at least five percent of people suffer from this condition. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): And there have been studies in the U.S. and Israel and Cuba and many places which suggest that the prevalence rate is at least five percent. So that means that a lot of kids who are bad at maths, and indeed adults who are bad at maths, are bad at maths because they have this condition. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): And the trouble is that if you've got this condition and it's not diagnosed, people think that because you can't do arithmetic, because you can't add nine and seven, you must be stupid. And so teachers think that kids who can't do this are stupid. Parents who think their kids can't do this think they're stupid, and the kids themselves think they're stupid. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): And then their classmates think they're stupid. So it's - it really is a problem if it's undiagnosed, and unfortunately, not many education authorities actually recognize this as a serious problem. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): But actually it is a serious problem. It's a serious problem for individuals because individuals with low numeracy are much more likely to be unemployed. If they are employed, they'll earn less. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): At least in studies in the U.K., they're also likely to be more depressed, more likely to be in trouble with the law, and so the outlook for individuals is extremely problematic. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): But also the outlook for the non-dyscalculic taxpayer is bad, too, because in the U.K., where they've done the sums on this, they reckon it costs $2.4 billion pounds a year in lost revenues and problems with justice and additional teaching. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): And so it's very expensive for the rest of us. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting. Let me go to the phones, to Kent(ph) in Dallas. Hi, Kent. KENT (Caller): Hello. IRA FLATOW, host: Hi there. You sent us a note on our Facebook page that you have dyscalculia. KENT (Caller): Yes, I do. I've lived with it all my life. IRA FLATOW, host: Can you describe for us the problems you face? And how do you overcome it? KENT (Caller): Well, a lot of the strategies that he mentioned are what I use. I'll count by fives. I use calculators. I use my kids because both of them are better than I am at it. KENT (Caller): When I was younger, it was very frustrating because I would have, you know, high science scores, high language scores, and then math was just like this black hole. And so we would do a lot of individual studies. KENT (Caller): My parents worked with me very hard. They were actually key in getting me as far as I got. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting. So you've learned little techniques to get around it and to get help from other people. KENT (Caller): Yes, and then... IRA FLATOW, host: And did your teachers understand your problem at all? KENT (Caller): Some did. Some didn't. It was kind of hit or miss. I mean, the ones who knew me, that knew that I was really applying myself, you know, I had a trig test one time. I studied, studied, studied. I got a nine out of 100. I studied, studied, studied to retake it. I doubled my score. KENT (Caller): You know, I did end up passing the class, but it was because the teacher knew what I was - she knew the thought process that was going on, what I was trying to do. IRA FLATOW, host: Well, thanks for sharing your experience with us, Ken, and good luck to you. KENT (Caller): Thank you. IRA FLATOW, host: You're welcome. 1-800-989-8255. Veronique, do the Munduruku people have a number system, counting, stuff like that? Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): Well, they have a very special number system. They actually have number words only up to five, which is something that is quite common in the Amazon. But so that's how we got interested in them because we also first did studies of their numeracy. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): And we looked at how they could perceive numbers, even though they had this limited lexicon, and we actually found that if you show them images with lots of dots, you ask them to compare where there would be more dots or less dots, they are still able to do that. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): So even without a linguistic system, you still have an intuition of numerical quantity. IRA FLATOW, host: Why don't they have larger numbers? Do they not have to keep track of larger items, numbers of items? Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): Well, they - it's a hard question to answer because of course if you don't have a large number system, then you are not going to keep track of large numbers of items. But I think it would probably be of some use to them. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): But they have also developed alternative systems, like they would use configurations for example, for keeping track of numbers. They would put five on the side, five on another side, and then, they might complete the picture with even more fives or things like that. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): So for example, when they basket, at first, they have to make sure that they have enough lines to make the basket. And to make sure that they do, what they do is choose some geometric configuration where they make squares of three by three lines, and then they make big squares of smaller square of three by three. And then, once the configuration is complete, they know they have the exact number they need. Dr. VERONIQUE IZARD (Paris Descartes University): So I think they developed this on-the-spot strategy to keep - to track these precise numbers that they need in precise situations, but they don't have this abstract system that we have to track any number of anything. IRA FLATOW, host: Very interesting. And, Brian, is there any crossover between... Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): I think there is, actually... IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): ...because in previous work, Veronique and her team have found that the Munduruku are not very good at doing exact calculation. I mean, they have to go to these elaborate strategies, but they are very good at geometry, which they've never been taught. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): So that suggests that in evolutionary times, geometry and numbers are separate, and also, we know from studies of brain function and structure that the part of the brain that deals with space and geometry is not exactly the same as the part that deals with numbers. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): And it turns out, actually, that quite a lot of people who have dyscalculia, that is they're really bad at arithmetic and numbers, can be actually quite good at geometry. So it seems to me that there's a convergence between the work that Veronique is doing in the Amazon and the work we're doing with normal children in a numerate society and actually converges to a certain extent. IRA FLATOW, host: 1-800-989-8255. What about, you know, we call it dyscalculia. There's a dys like in a dyslexia. Is there any connection between the two? Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Well, that's an interesting question. They're both developmental disorders. They both seem to run in families. They both have particular neural signatures. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): But as far as we can tell, the neural basis of the two conditions is really quite different. So there aren't overlaps in the brain between the reading brain and the calculating brain, at least broadly speaking. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Also, as far as we know, the genetics of dyscalculia and the genetics of dyslexia are different. So they seem to be independent. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): On the other hand, what happens in, as a matter of fact, is that they're much likely to be dyscalculic if you're dyslexic and much more likely to be dyslexic if you're dyscalculic than you might expect by chance. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): So there's a kind of mysterious co-occurrence of these two developmental disorders. We don't know why that should be, but it does seem to be the case. IRA FLATOW, host: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow talking about mathematics and the mind this hour. 1-800-989-8255 is our number if you'd like to talk about it. IRA FLATOW, host: Let's see if we can get one more phone call in. Paula(ph) in Wisconsin. IRA FLATOW, host: Hi, Paula. PAULA (Caller): Hello. IRA FLATOW, host: Hi there. PAULA (Caller): Thanks for taking my call. I am almost 60 years old, and listening to your program is the first time I've known there was a name for what's been wrong with me. IRA FLATOW, host: Really? PAULA (Caller): I have - oh, I struggled as a child. I mean, my - I'm adopted, and my father was an accountant, and it drove him crazy that I could not do numbers. And to this day, of course, I still can't, and my friends know that when we were like going to play a game of cribbage, I - they have to add it for me. PAULA (Caller): I can't keep more than like two numbers together in my head at one time. They just don't go there. They just - and I do have to use tools to count, either my hands or - and I have to add weird like if somebody wants me to get, you know, subtract seven from 23. First, I bring the 23 down to a 20, and then, I could take seven from that. And then, I get three more to rid off, and, you know, I've just over these years learned. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. What do you say that, Dr. Butterworth? Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Well, it's not time - it's not the first time I've heard a story like this. And we tested a series of what we call high-functioning dyscalculics. These are people who - of high intelligence who've been very successful in life in all sorts of different areas, including science, by the way, but who nevertheless have this profound problem with numbers. So whatever they've tried to do, they haven't managed to succeed in doing simple arithmetic. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Now, one of the problems here is that we think we have a way of helping them, but these adults didn't have the opportunity to use that method when they were growing up, and we still don't really know whether our methods are going to work in the long term. IRA FLATOW, host: What - can you, briefly, tell us what that is. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): Well, you have to work with concrete materials for much longer with dyscalculics than you would with normal people. That is you have to get them to use beads and blocks and so on, until they really understand what (unintelligible) and what happens when you add a set of five objects to a set of three objects to get eight objects. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): So you really got to make sure that they understand those processes before you start giving them five plus three or the number bonds to 10 or the multiplication table. You've really got to make sure that they understand these concepts in either in real concrete materials or what we've been developing recently are virtual concrete materials where you have software, computer games which simulate or emulate what a good teacher would do with concrete materials. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): This, we think, really does help these kids. Whether they'll ever get to be normally good calculators, we don't know yet because we haven't been running the study for long enough, so we need to be running it for some years now. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): So I'm sorry your caller didn't have the benefit of these methods by... IRA FLATOW, host: Well, I think my caller is going to alert a lot of other people listening, and other people around, you know, the world who never knew what they had, you know? And thank you very much, Dr. Butterworth, for letting us know. And good luck to you. Dr. BRIAN BUTTERWORTH (Cognitive Neuropsychology, University College London): You're welcome. IRA FLATOW, host: Brian Butterworth is former chair of the Center for Educational Neuroscience, and also with us was Veronique Izard, a research scientist at the French National Center for Scientific Research in Paris Descartes University in France. IRA FLATOW, host: We're going to take a short break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the history of syphilis. Stay with us. IRA FLATOW, host: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR.

Psychologist Véronique Izard discusses a study that suggests Amazonian villagers with no math schooling are just as equipped to solve basic geometry problems as math-trained adults, and cognitive neuropsychologist Brian Butterworth talks about the arithmetic cousin of dyslexia, dyscalculia.

Die Psychologin Véronique Izard diskutiert eine Studie, die darauf hindeutet, dass die Dorfbewohner im Amazonasgebiet ohne mathematische Ausbildung genauso gut in der Lage sind, grundlegende Geometrieprobleme zu lösen wie in Mathematik ausgebildete Erwachsene, und der Professor der kognitiven Neuropsychologie Brian Butterworth spricht über den arithmetischen Cousin der Legasthenie, Dyskalkulie.

心理学家维罗尼克·伊扎德讨论了一项研究。该研究表明，没有受过数学教育的亚马逊村民与受过数学训练的成年人同样具备解决基本几何问题的能力。认知神经心理学家布莱恩·巴特沃思则谈到了阅读障碍的算术表亲——计算障碍。

NEAL CONAN, host: Earlier today, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the secretary of defense accompanied President Obama to Arlington National Cemetery, where he laid a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns. The president concluded some brief remarks afterwards with the story of a man he described as one of America's guardians, Travis Manion. President BARACK OBAMA: The son of a Marine, Travis aspired to follow in his father's footsteps and was accepted by the U.S. Naval Academy. His roommate at the academy was Brendan Looney, a star athlete and born leader from a military family, just like Travis. And the two quickly became best friends, like brothers, Brendan said. President BARACK OBAMA: After graduation, they deployed, Travis to Iraq and Brendan to Korea. On April 29th, 2007, while fighting to rescue his fellow Marines from danger, Travis was killed by a sniper. Brendan did what he had to do, he kept going. He poured himself into his SEAL training and dedicated it to the friend that he missed. He married the woman he loved. And his tour in Korea behind him, he deployed to Afghanistan. On September 21st of last year, Brendan gave his own life, along with eight others, in a helicopter crash. President BARACK OBAMA: Heartbroken yet filled with pride, the Manions and the Looneys knew only one way to honor their sons' friendship. They moved Travis from his cemetery in Pennsylvania and buried them side by side here at Arlington. Warriors for freedom - reads the epitaph written by Travis's father - brothers forever. President BARACK OBAMA: The friendship between 1st Lieutenant Travis Manion and Lieutenant Brendan Looney reflects the meaning of Memorial Day - brotherhood, sacrifice, love of country. President BARACK OBAMA: And it is my fervent prayer that we may honor the memory of the fallen by living out those ideals every day of our lives, in the military and beyond. May God bless the souls of the venerable warriors we've lost, and the country for which they died. NEAL CONAN, host: President Obama on this Memorial Day from Arlington Cemetery in Virginia. NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

President Obama honored America's fallen service members on Memorial Day and laid a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington National Cemetery. He then spoke to the crowds gathered there and told the story of one of America's guardians, Travis Manian, and his friend and fellow Naval Academy graduate, Brendan Looney.

Präsident Obama ehrte am Memorial Day die gefallenen Soldaten Amerikas und legte einen Kranz am Grab der Unbekannten auf dem Nationalfriedhof Arlington nieder. Dann sprach er zu den versammelten Menschen und erzählte die Geschichte eines der Wächter Amerikas, Travis Manian, und seines Freundes und Absolventen der Naval Academy, Brendan Looney.

奥巴马总统在阵亡将士纪念日向美国阵亡将士致敬，并在阿灵顿国家公墓的无名烈士墓前敬献花圈。然后，他对聚集在那里的人群发表了讲话，讲述了美国的守护者之一特拉维斯·马尼安和他的朋友，海军学院毕业生布兰登·鲁尼的故事。

NEAL CONAN, host: Bob Dylan turns 70 years old today. Born Robert Allen Zimmerman in Minnesota, he may be the most distinctive musician of his era. In The New York Times, critic A.O. Scott wrote: The scope of his historical imagination stretches from before the flood to the end of days. And the man himself can sometime seem to dwell outside of time altogether. NEAL CONAN, host: In 1991, as he presented Bob Dylan with a Grammy for lifetime achievement, Jack Nicholson said, he's been called everything from the voice of his generation to the conscience of the world. He rejects both titles and any others that try to categorize him or analyze him. NEAL CONAN, host: He opened the doors of pop music wider than anybody else, yet returned, time an again, to the simplicity of basic chords and emotions to express himself. He has been and still is a disturber of the peace, his as well as ours. Nice, but as usual, the man himself put it better. Mr. BOB DYLAN (Musician): (Singing) Crimson flames tied through my ears rollin' high and mighty traps, pounced with fire on flaming roads using ideas as my maps. We'll meet on edges soon, said I, proud beneath heated brow. Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. Mr. BOB DYLAN (Musician): Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth. Rip down all hate, I screamed. Lies that life is black and white, spoke from my skull, I dreamed. Romantic facts of musketeers foundationed deep, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. Mr. BOB DYLAN (Musician): Girls' faces formed the forward path from phony jealousy to memorizing politics of ancient history, flung down by corpse evangelists unthought of, though, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. Mr. BOB DYLAN (Musician): A self-ordained professor's tongue too serious to fool spouted out that liberty is just equality in school. Equality, I spoke the word as if a wedding vow. Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. Mr. BOB DYLAN (Musician): In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand at the mongrel dogs who teach. Fearing not that I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preach. My existence led by confusion boats, mutiny from stern to bow. Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. Mr. BOB DYLAN (Musician): Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats too noble to neglect deceived me into thinking I had something to protect. Good and bad, I define these terms quite clear, no doubt, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. NEAL CONAN, host: Bob Dylan, 70 today, "My Back Pages." Tomorrow, political junkie Ken Rudin joins us. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News, I'm Neal Conan broadcasting from Washington.

On the occasion of Bob Dylan's 70th birthday, NPR's Neal Conan reads an accolade to the much-lauded musician, and plays his song, "My Back Pages." Dylan included the song on his album, Another Side Of Bob Dylan.

Anlässlich des 70. Geburtstags von Bob Dylan liest Neal Conan von NPR dem vielgelobten Musiker eine Auszeichnung vor und spielt seinen Song \"Meine Backpages.\". Dylan nahm den Song auf seinem Album Another Side Of Bob Dylan auf.

在鲍勃·迪伦70岁生日之际， NPR新闻的尼尔·柯南为这位备受赞誉的音乐家朗读了一段赞美诗，并播放了他的歌曲《我的后记》。迪伦将这首歌收录在自己的专辑《鲍勃·迪伦的另一面》中。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Last night, Florida beat Ohio State to claim its second straight NCAA basketball championship. And tonight, Tennessee is facing Rutgers, which happens to be the alma mater of Christopher Johnson - one of our producers who you have heard in the Letters segment - in the women's championship. Commentator Richard Purcell recently discovered he's got a thing about women's ball, but he's working on it. RICHARD PURCELL: I love college hoops. So you'd think that when a group of us got tickets for the NCAA Division 1 Tournament, I'd get mad excited -especially since I got to watch my school, University of Pittsburg, play the University of Tennessee on Pitt's home court. But to be honest, I just wasn't that excited. RICHARD PURCELL: See, I love basketball, but I love men's basketball. We were going to the Women's NCAA Division 1 Tournament. Now I went willingly, driven by my own principal devotion to basketball spelled with a capital B. Besides, since women's tournament games suffer low attendance, I thought I'd do my part. RICHARD PURCELL: However, truth be told, my attitude was that of someone talking himself into doing court-ordered community service. The game itself was an intense seesaw battle. Whenever the crowd got excited, so did I. But my response was Pavlovian. I spent most of the time talking with Jake, the other guy in our group about our men's tournament betting pool. RICHARD PURCELL: The lower-seeded Lady Panthers gave the number one-seeded Lady Volunteers a serious run for their money. But unfortunately, Pitt lost in the end. At the conclusion of the game, crowds of young girls began to gather near our courtside seats. I asked my friend Julie why, and she told me they were probably waiting to get an autograph from Candace Parker. RICHARD PURCELL: Ms. Parker, the Lady Vols sophomore phenom, totally dominated the game. At 6'4", she has a speed of a point guard, the silky jumper of a shooting guard, the postings of a center and can dunk to boot. It's no wonder she received the Wade Trophy this year, which is given to the best women's player in the nation. That these young girls sought Ms. Parker's autograph made total sense to me. RICHARD PURCELL: What didn't was a lone African-American boy around the age of 10 who joined the crowd of Candace Parker fans. When Ms. Parker finally came out and sat with her family, arena security dispersed most of the autograph seekers. Not to be deterred, this boy tried to sneak past the guard, but was repelled. He then sat in the vacant seat next to my friends and I, a bundle of disappointment and excitement since separating our courtside seats and Candace Parker were about 12 feet, that guard, and a section of metal railing. RICHARD PURCELL: After spending 20 dejected minutes next to us, he started to leave. Noticing this, the thin crowd of spectators sitting around us convinced him to lean over the railing and politely ask someone who sat much closer to Candace Parker to take his ticket stub and get her autograph. I was the only person who did not join this motivational chorus. I just couldn't understand why a young boy wanted her autograph. It's not like she was Kevin Durant. RICHARD PURCELL: Anyway, a kind woman took his stub and gave it to Ms. Parker, who promptly signed and passed it back. When this boy got it, he looked at that stub like I would have looked at tickets to the men's championship game. A few days later, I thought about this scene. I still couldn't understand why this little boy wanted Candace Parker's autograph, but I did feel guilty for not encouraging him to seek it. And that got me thinking: as long as people like me accept women's basketball only if it mimics the men's game, Title IX and other guarantees against gender discrimination win legal battles, but the one on the most important battle field - that of the mind. The worst part is I see my warped principles as progressive ones. And that got me thinking: Somehow - and admittedly, I don't know how - principles must ultimately yield to desire - the very same desire that drove that 10-year-old boy to get Candace Parker's autograph. So hopefully, instead of being silent, I'll at least encourage that desire next time it sits next to me at a women's basketball game. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Richard Purcell teaches at the University of Pittsburg. He's finishing his doctoral dissertation on writer Ralph Ellison.

Why does NCAA women's basketball fail to attract a large male audience? A commentator admits his bias, but looks to expand his hoops horizons.

Warum zieht der NCAA-Frauenbasketball kein großes männliches Publikum an? Ein Kommentator gibt seine Voreingenommenheit zu, versucht aber, seinen Horizont zu erweitern.

为什么全美大学体育协会女篮无法吸引大量男性观众？一位评论员承认他持有偏见，但希望拓展自己的篮球眼界。

NEAL CONAN, host: Another tornado disaster this spring, this time a twister tore a half-mile wide path six miles long through the center of Joplin, Missouri, on Sunday. It killed at least 89 people. Rescue teams continue to search for survivors. Main roadways and interstates are shut down. The roof was torn off the main hospital. We'll get more details on exactly what happened there and the rescue efforts that are under way throughout the day on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED and on NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: But while many in Joplin remain in shock, they may have lessons to learn from previous catastrophes. We'll focus on just two: Birmingham and Tuscaloosa in Alabama earlier this spring, and Greensburg, Kansas, four years ago. If you live in a place heavily hit by tornadoes, how did your town handle the next day, the next month and the next few years? NEAL CONAN, host: 800-989-8255 is the phone number. Email us: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website, it's at npr.org, click on TALK OF THE NATION. Joining us now from Alabama Public Radio in Tuscaloosa is Doug Ray, executive editor of the Tuscaloosa News. And nice to have with you today. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: And I wonder, is there anything that you might be able to tell the people in Joplin, Missouri, from your experience just less than a month ago? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Self-sufficiency, I think, has been a thing that has really stood out here. The churches, the community groups, the volunteers have really picked up a lot of the load. NEAL CONAN, host: Self-sufficiency. In other words, you're going to get a lot of attention for a while, but it's going to be the people who were there from the start that you're going to need to count on. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Yes, that's what our leaders have kind of - the mayor and other folks have really stressed is it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, and it'll be a long process of recovery. NEAL CONAN, host: And that long process began how soon after the tornado? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Well, the first 48 hours, 72 hours, maybe even a little bit longer, it was still a search for people. There were a lot of missing people in Tuscaloosa. The number of dead was never as high as it has been, obviously in Joplin. But there were hundreds, even more than a thousand, I think, at one point who were listed as missing. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): And so, for the first 72 hours, there was a lot of fear that the number of dead would increase. But after that, it really has been a process of trying to remove the debris. There's something like one and a half million cubic yards of debris in Tuscaloosa that they're in the process of trying to get to the roadsides and then get out of town. NEAL CONAN, host: If you could have gone back and seen the town redo something differently from this vantage point, what might that have been? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Well, the emergency management system had fairly recently moved to a new headquarters and put all of its, kind of, eggs in one basket there. And that was taken out almost at the very beginning of the storm when it first came into town. So I think we probably would do a better job or will do a better job with how we cite those resources for emergency management. NEAL CONAN, host: And has there been a problem with people who have no place to live? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): There are about 60 people still living in a homeless shelter that the Red Cross runs, but there are a lot more folks living on couches in spare rooms with family and friends, people who were probably in apartments that they can't quite afford themselves. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): They're getting some assistance from FEMA or, again, from friends or churches. But it's that next step that, six months to two years, that there really is not yet a clear path for how these people get to a sustaining - self-sustaining way of life. NEAL CONAN, host: How has most people's experience been with their insurance companies? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): I think that changes from insurance company to insurance company, but I think, overall, people are getting some money, but they're probably not getting as much money as obviously they lost in terms of possessions and things. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): So - and then, just the increased cost of living when you're trying to recover, which is just more expensive. So I think people are getting something from FEMA or from their - from the local insurers, but it's certainly an added strain on them. NEAL CONAN, host: Tuscaloosa is a college town. Obviously, the University of Alabama there had shut down early before the school year ended. How did that help, and how did that hurt? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): One of the things that probably helped - two things, I think, it helped. One, there was a lot of students who stayed around and continued to help volunteer with the recovery efforts - not only in the night after the storm are - the students came out. Part of the storm went through a heavily - kind of a student housing area, and the students got out and helped their neighbors. But even since then, they've done a lot of work with the recovery. Also, by leaving, it's opened up a lot of apartments that otherwise would have been filled. NEAL CONAN, host: And at this point, are people looking far enough ahead to say: No problem. We're going to get summer classes on time. We're going to get to the fall classes on time. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): It shouldn't really affect the university's schedule too much. The number of students that will be back in the fall, for the most part, will have places to stay or probably already have had arranged that for the following year. There'll probably some scramble for those housing. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): The students tend to pay more for housing that a lot of families can afford to pay, because you'll have three or four students all chipping on. NEAL CONAN, host: Mm-hmm. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): So the housing - the apartment stock in Tuscaloosa's actually pretty good, but it's fairly expensive. NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with Doug Ray, executive editor of the Tuscaloosa News, after the devastation yesterday in Joplin, Missouri. We're looking back at what happened in Tuscaloosa. And later, we'll talk about what happened in Greensburg, Kansas, four years ago, and see what their experience has been like. NEAL CONAN, host: But if you live in a place that's been hit hard by tornadoes, well, tell us your story. How did the town handle the next day, the next month and the next few years? 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. NEAL CONAN, host: Vicky's on the line, Vicky calling from Pleasant Grove in Alabama. VICKY (Caller): Hi, there. Yes. I'm actually with a group that is still feeding people every day, the relief workers, the volunteers, the residents. And something that we're doing is we get out on pick-up trucks every day with coolers, ice, you know, full of Gatorade and water, because there's no shade left in these areas. There's not, you know - there's nothing to keep these guys cool. A lot of them are coming in from out of state, in areas where, you know, they're not accustomed to this weather. VICKY (Caller): And so one of the things we're making sure to do is to, you know, keep them from overheating. We don't want anymore tragedies, you know, than what we've already experienced. And something else that I wanted to share is the fact that, you know, people who are considering volunteering, who may want to come in from out of (unintelligible), you know, wait a week or two, because at the two-week mark, 85 percent of your volunteers will have dropped off. VICKY (Caller): And this sort of recovery is measured in terms of months and years, rather than days and weeks. So there's always going to be an immediate flood, but, you know, consider coming in and taking, you know, maybe a few weeks of work later on. NEAL CONAN, host: Doug Ray, is that a good advice? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Yes. In the first weekend after the storm, we had a huge number of volunteers - a lot of them local - come in. But they weren't well-organized. And it really took about two weeks before the agencies and the city officials and - got things well enough organized that people could effectively work. The church groups that came in were kind of self-organized, did better. But individuals, in particular, if they came in by themselves, oftentimes just kind of sat around, looking for something to do. NEAL CONAN, host: And I hadn't realized - one thing that Vicky said, of course, it's obvious: There's no shade. There's no trees left anymore. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): In the areas that were hardest hit, you're right. They're just either stripped or they're gone. NEAL CONAN, host: Do you recognize the town sometimes, blinking? VICKY (Caller): It's - well, it changes every day. There's nothing that - you know, the old landmarks, especially in Pleasant Grove, it's difficult to find your way around just by street numbers. But the landmarks are now changing every day. The one house that, you know, with a funny little looters trap or the funny sign isn't there anymore/ So you're not sure where to turn or whose house is what, where. But, you know, there's a constant evolution, and we are starting to see some visible progress. But there's - you know, it's a long-term need. NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Thanks very much for the call, Vicky. Appreciate it. VICKY (Caller): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Bye-bye. Let's see if we can go next to - this is Wade, Wade with us from Birmingham. WADE (Caller): Hey. How are you? NEAL CONAN, host: Good. Thanks. WADE (Caller): I had a pretty powerful experience. The second week after the storm, I was with seven teams of volunteers that went down to Tuscaloosa to help people that had been hit by the tornadoes. And the thing that was so overwhelming to me was the number of people who were, you know, taken off from work, finding - you know, going to just crazy lengths to find, you know, babysitters for their kids so they could go down there. WADE (Caller): And so, you know, we were down there working to help impoverished families whose homes - you know, to go through the rubble, go through the debris of their lives. You know, sometimes, they were asking us: Can you find this ring that my great, great, great grandmother gave me? And we'd be working in a debris field, you know, that could be two or 300 yards, you know, long, by two or 300 years wide. We're looking for a ring that has such special significance. NEAL CONAN, host: Sure. WADE (Caller): Folks who lost loved ones. And there were so many amazing things that happened, though. We had people come up to us and say, hey, you know, my name's John. I'm from Meridian, Mississippi. I've been driving up here every day. I just want to help. Can I jump in with you team? You know, our team is from our church. And we'd say, yeah, come on, you know. And he'd work with us all day and meet with us - you know, drive back from Mississippi the next day. WADE (Caller): And it's just overwhelming to see that kind of concern that people have for their fellow citizens, that it raised some questions for me, as a pastor, that really relate to what Bill Moyers was talking about in your previous interview, about patriotism and what it means to be committed to the well-being of our fellow citizens, regardless of their political or ideological views. NEAL CONAN, host: Hmm. And, of course, among us being the most vulnerable and the ones who are hardest hit and certainly in disasters like this. Doug Ray, is that situation being revisited, people rethinking that issue in Tuscaloosa? Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Yes. I think the people that have come out have put aside all sorts of divisions. It's interesting that in Tuscaloosa, I think, historically, there's been a perception that this is a city divided along different lines of race or class or religion, whether you're from here or not. And this is one of those things that I think erases that. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): People are moving in, meeting people that they haven't met before. They're moving in different circles. They're rubbing elbows, working alongside folks who otherwise they might not have encountered. So I hope maybe one of the long-term outcomes is that people have made new relationships and put aside some of the things that kept them apart in the past. NEAL CONAN, host: Doug Ray, good luck to you, and good luck to Tuscaloosa. Mr. DOUG RAY (Executive Editor, The Tuscaloosa News): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Doug Ray, executive editor of The Tuscaloosa News, with us from Alabama Public Radio there in Tuscaloosa. NEAL CONAN, host: You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: And with us now by phone from his office in Greensburg, Kansas, is Mark Anderson, editor of The Kiowa County Signal. And nice to have you with us. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: And I guess, in a way, it must be amazing - four years ago. Four years ago, 95 percent of your town was all but wiped out. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): That's right. NEAL CONAN, host: And I wonder, from your vantage point, what might you be able to tell the people in Joplin, Missouri today? Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): I don't know. It's - we're a lot smaller town here before the tornado all over our county seat - we're in rural western Kansas, not many people live here, and we were only a population of 1,400 before the storm. We're probably eight to 900 now. I know Tuscaloosa's 93,000, and I think Joplin's probably about half that. NEAL CONAN, host: About 50,000 is what I read. Yeah. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Fifty thousand. Yeah. And I notice that your previous guest spoke about self-sufficiency. We didn't have enough of our town left or our resources our infrastructure to feel very self-sufficient. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): So it was a situation where, at the outset, aside from the leadership of our three or four key leaders in terms of city and county and school, we - we're - the people who are really in great in need of and benefited a lot by the help and the presence of FEMA, USDA Rural Development, and later through the donations of volunteer groups like AmeriCorps, New York Says Thanks and just people from various church groups and voluntary organizations across the country. And still, volunteers, four years later, still come back to continue with the cleanup. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): I noticed your previous guest said it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, and that's certainly true. There are still places here in town that need to be cleaned up. NEAL CONAN, host: Still need to be cleaned up. And are people continuing to discover things? Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Are people - I'm sorry, what? NEAL CONAN, host: Continuing to discover things. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): No, not so much. You mean, as far as artifacts and so forth? NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah. Yeah. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): No. Not so much that. I think they're just discovering that there were more people they might have thought who have abandoned their property and kind of skipped out on paying any property tax or anything on it. And being a small town, that puts a burden on the local county and, well, city government, as far as cleanup. And again, that's where a lot of volunteers have helped. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): We - they had lot of AmeriCorps kids here, oh, for the last couple of months, about eight or nine of them. And they did a tremendous amount of work while they were here. And there's - when you have people abandon their property, and it falls generally to the city or volunteer to clean up the mess. NEAL CONAN, host: And so you learned some of the bad about people, as well as some of the good. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Well, yeah. But, I mean, I'm talking about people that didn't have much of a stake here in the community. The ones who did, a lot of them have stayed, have started new businesses. We've had a few people - new people move in. Some of the older people moved to surrounding towns and have not returned back, and a lot of it has to do with the need for affordable housing, which still, there's a deficit of. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): But overall, the people of the community have been as self-sufficient as they could, but like I said, they needed resources to help them in the very beginning. NEAL CONAN, host: And has it been an opportunity to rebuild the town in a new and perhaps some - in some ways, better way? Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Completely. There was a real decision early on by the leaders, who at that time was then-acting Mayor John Janssen, our city administrator Steve Hewitt, one of our county commissioners Gene West and our school superintendent Darin Headrick. They all got a vision for rebuilding this town green, to make it energy-efficient. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): And right now, we have the most LEED Platinum buildings per capita of any place in the country. And that's what they really decided to hang their hat on. But at the same time, that meant doing some things differently: Revamping the building codes, having expectations, some voluntary people rebuilding in as efficient a fashion as possible. And a lot of people have responded positively, at both residential building and commercial. NEAL CONAN, host: I wonder, one of the things that happened right after the tornado was that the - you mentioned the acting mayor - the mayor at the time resigned. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Yeah, about three weeks later. NEAL CONAN, host: And have you gotten to the bottom of that? Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Well, he was a great guy, but he was a guy that kind of wore his emotions on his sleeve. I thought very highly of him. It's kind of ironic. A week before the tornado came through, he came into me - I guess it's OK to say this now - in confidence and said to me that he was really thinking about resigning, simply because he's a guy that likes to see things move, and he gets impatient when they don't move as quickly as you thought they should. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): And he was ironically engaged in that big cleanup of the town then, because a lot of these smaller towns, you get really run-down areas, and it looks bad to people driving through. And so he was really pushing on initiatives such as that and having a code enforcement officer. And he was getting a lot of pushback, and he was just getting to the point where he's thinking of throwing it in. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): Then boom, the tornado comes through. He's kind of revitalized at first, but we had one of our early city council meetings, and we had it under a tent - we didn't have building to meet in. Probably about two-and-a-half to three weeks after... NEAL CONAN, host: And we got 10 seconds left. Mr. MARK ANDERSON (Editor, The Kiowa County Signal): OK. And he just kind of - he couldn't deal with it anymore. But the people that stepped in after him really have done a banner job, and they get - they deserve all the credit. NEAL CONAN, host: Mark Anderson, thank you very much. NEAL CONAN, host: This is NPR News.

A massive tornado ripped through Joplin, Missouri on Sunday. The twister killed at least 89 people as it tore a half-mile wide path six miles long through the center of the city. Members of several communities hit hard by previous tornadoes talk about the lessons they learned after disaster struck. Doug Ray, executive editor, The Tuscaloosa News Mark Anderson, editor, The Kiowa County Signal

Ein massiver Tornado fegte am Sonntag über Joplin, Missouri. Der Tornado tötete mindestens 89 Menschen, als er einen sechs Meilen langen Weg durch das Zentrum der Stadt riss. Mitglieder mehrerer Gemeinden, die von früheren Tornados schwer getroffen wurden, sprechen über die Lehren, die sie nach der Katastrophe gelernt haben. Doug Ray, Chefredakteur, The Tuscaloosa News Mark Anderson, Redakteur, The Kiowa County Signal

周日，一场巨大的龙卷风席卷了密苏里州的乔普林市。龙卷风在城市中心撕裂了一条半英里宽、六英里长的道路，造成至少89人死亡。此前遭受龙卷风重创的几个社区的成员谈论了他们从灾难中吸取的教训。道格·雷，《塔斯卡卢萨新闻》执行编辑；马克·安德森，《基奥瓦县信号》编辑

IRA FLATOW, host: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. IRA FLATOW, host: For the rest of the hour, we're celebrating superconductivity, that weird state when a material exhibits no resistance to the flow of electrical current. And though we've only been talking about it, publicly, for a relatively short time - I mean, a few decades -superconductivity was discovered 100 years ago by Dutch experimental physicist Kamerlingh Onnes. And superconductivity isn't something that happens in room temperature world. It requires extremely cold environments. And Onnes happened to run a cryogenics lab, where he became the first man to liquefy helium, something that only happens, oh, a few degrees above absolute zero. IRA FLATOW, host: Well, so you're the first guy to liquefy helium. What are you going to do with it, right? You have to have something to do. So, like any curious experimenter, he started throwing stuff into the frigid helium to see what would happen. And joining me to talk more about what he found is my guest, David Cardwell, chair of the Superconductivity Group at the Institute of Physics in the U.K. He's also professor of superconducting engineering at the University of Cambridge. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Cardwell. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Oh, hi, Ira. It's good to be here. IRA FLATOW, host: What - so what did he - now he has all this super cold helium -take us back to 1911. What is he doing now with all of that? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Well, it was a pretty exciting time for physics and certainly superconductivity. So Kamerlingh Onnes had just achieved these very low temperatures, minus 269 degrees centigrade, and he and a student were doing experiments, measuring resistance of metal. And he found that the resistance of mercury disappeared completely at these very cold temperatures, which was, you know, extraordinary. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Completely unpredicted. No scientist thought it would happen. It took everybody by surprise. And then we spent the next 50 years trying to explain it. So it's so remarkable. I mean, this subject has produced about 13 Nobel Prize winners. So it's - that tells you about the challenge and how it actually captured the imagination of the science world. IRA FLATOW, host: Did we ever figure out what is going on inside there? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Yeah, kind of. There's a really successful theory called the BCS theory, Bardeen, Cooper and Schrieffer, which was developed in the '60s, and this was very successful, and it predicted the properties of most of the known superconductors. But it had one very important prediction and that was that superconductivity would be limited to low temperatures. And so people stopped looking. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): And there's a very important message to all the young scientists listening, and that is that you never actually prove a theory. You only disprove it. And a new class of materials were discovered in 1986 with very high transition temperatures relative to liquid helium. And that's opened up a whole new field of interest in this material. IRA FLATOW, host: And where would we find superconducting materials today? It's ubiquitous, right? They're all over the place. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): They're all over the place. It's just that they're not superconducting because the temperature, usually room temperature, that's far too high for superconductivity. So you only see this property when you cool materials down to an appropriate temperature. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): So the new materials got a fairly high transition temperature, and we can actually access those using liquid nitrogen. Whereas Kamerlingh Onnes' materials, you needed liquid helium and that's much more expensive, much more volatile, much more difficult to contain. So the liquid nitrogen - and there's obviously lots of nitrogen around. Seventy percent of the air is nitrogen. Then it's actually easier to see superconductivity. The... IRA FLATOW, host: Did we figure out what's going on in the atomic level to make it superconducting? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Right, yeah. You certainly know how to ask the questions. IRA FLATOW, host: Just - you know, it's an obvious question, like what's going on in there, you know? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Yeah, it's a very good question. In a normal metal, you got things called electrons. Electrons come from atoms. And these electrons, as they go through the material, they bump into atoms in the matrix of the material. And every collision results in the dissipation of heat or energy, so the material gets lost. The electrons lose their energy and the current stops slowing. So quite simply, that's how metallic conduction and the generation of heat works. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): In a superconductor, what happens is that these charged carriers, these electrons, actually pair up. So they kind of hang around in pairs, not singular. And because they do that, they're able to move through the metal without bumping into these metal atoms. Therefore, there's no loss, nothing to stop them and they just keep moving forever. So if you get a supercurrent going in a loop of superconducting wire, it will flow virtually forever without loss, and that's the difference between superconductors and normal metals. So electrons hunt in pairs in a superconductor. IRA FLATOW, host: So we've made all kinds of superconducting magnets now, right, to power things from supercolliders to MRI machines? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Absolutely. I mean, the supercollider magnets are hugely impressive. I mean - but they're one-off. I mean, you know, extremely high cost, extremely high field, the kind of thing that the general public never get to see. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): MRI magnets, on the other hand, are completely the opposite. I find it extraordinary that people can go for an MRI scan. They can lie in the middle of a superconducting magnet and literally inches away from their body that are cryogenic temperatures, but the insulation is so good that they've got no idea, they have no concept that they are working so closely to this very cold cryogenic environment. IRA FLATOW, host: So right next to your ear, your leg or whatever is being scanned at MRI... IRA FLATOW, host: DR. CARDWELL: (Unintelligible), yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: ...at 300 degrees below centigrade. IRA FLATOW, host: DR. CARDWELL: Well, yeah. Well, it's 200 - more than 260 degrees below C (unintelligible) yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. IRA FLATOW, host: DR. CARDWELL: You know, you look at an MRI magnet, you see basically a tube, and the tube's got a fairly thick wall. Within that thick wall you've got your superconducting wire carrying this very large current, generating a very big field, and that's what superconductors are really good at. And then you've got all the cryogenics and the insulation. And, as I said, the patient has got no concept of this. It's a wonderful example of very effective, high-tech engineering. IRA FLATOW, host: Well, here's a question maybe you can answer for me because it sort of seems counterintuitive. If you're creating a magnetic field with superconducting materials, you put the electricity in there and it goes around and - forever, let's say - and it's created this magnetic field, if I draw energy off of that magnetic field... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: ...what's going to happen to the magnetic field? I mean, am I getting something for nothing because they've taken away the source of the electricity? IRA FLATOW, host: DR. CARDWELL: Yeah. Well, that's a wonderful idea. No, obviously if you take away magnetic energy, then you have to pay for that. But the way a superconductor works is that - there's this thing called Faraday's law. So if you take a superconductor that's absolutely do nothing, just sitting on the bench, basically, and you apply a magnetic field to it, that's a changing field, so that induces a voltage within the superconductor. The voltage will cause charge to flow and that charge will flow indefinitely. Now, that flowing charge, which is a current, will give rise to a magnetic field. So that's a static, stable situation. IRA FLATOW, host: As soon as you start to take energy out of a magnetic field, then the penalty you pay is that you reduce the supercurrent. So you're not getting anything for nothing, but you are storing energy in a very effective way. IRA FLATOW, host: I once heard this described as you actually - when it comes to looking at generating electricity and essentially electrical systems are inefficient, there are losses, traditionally you can never win. With superconductivity we're getting close to being able to break even. IRA FLATOW, host: So the idea that you can regenerate the magnetic field with very little energy putting - being put in there, because it's very efficient. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Well, it's more than very efficient. If the magnetic field is there, it's stable, it will persist as long as the supercurrent flows. And until you do something to remove that energy, it will stay there. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. So if you're using it in an MRI machine, you're taking out some of that energy, right? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): No, you're not. IRA FLATOW, host: You're not? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): No, you're not, no. You're generating a large magnetic field. And depending on the industry standard, it can be one tesla or it can be three tesla. There are some MRI devices based on five tesla but mainly three tesla and below. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): And that, incidentally, is twice the field you can generate using a permanent magnet. You're just generating a constant stable field. And the fact that the patient sits in that stable field means that anything that's got what we call the electron spins will respond to the local field. And it's how those electron spins respond to this very high field and how they behave when we apply an additional field tells us about the structure of the material that the body is made of. IRA FLATOW, host: But if so... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): The background fairly is constant. We don't take energy out. We put additional energy in to get these individual spins in the body excited and spinning around the big field we apply. IRA FLATOW, host: So... Dr. CALDWELL: It's a very clever engineering. IRA FLATOW, host: So if you - but if you were to draw some energy off of that superconducting field... Dr. CALDWELL: Yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: ...you would collapse it or would you have to regenerate it? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): You could take energy out without collapsing the field. But if you're looking at using superconductors as a way of storing energy, the best way to take all the energy out is actually to collapse the field. And the way you can do that is if you have a superconducting loop that continues, you just break the loop. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): So it's like you squirt the supercurrent out back into your battery or something as the field collapses, as a changing field on the superconductor, and that produces even more current. IRA FLATOW, host: Mm-hmm. When... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): So all the energy is stored in the current or in the field. IRA FLATOW, host: Interesting. 1-800-989-8255. Mark in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Hi, Mark. MARK (Caller): Hi. I just wondered how far we are from having superconducting backbones to our power grids so that we could send, you know, wind power from the Midwest all the way to the East Coast so we'd always have some sort of sustainable energy that was supporting the grid. IRA FLATOW, host: Good question, Mark. Let's see if we can get an answer. An interesting question and interesting usage for it, is it not? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Yeah, it was. It was a very good question, Mark. And, of course, there's an infinite gain if we can do that. For the moment, a lot of our energy is lost on the transmission. And estimates vary, but typically around about 10 percent of the energy is lost in getting it from A to B. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): When you're looking at a continent the size of the U.S., there are enormous gains to be made if we could have a superconducting network of cables to transport the energy around. And I think with sustainable engineering becoming increasingly important, reducing carbon footprints, the diminishing of fossil fuels, that's a very important consideration. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): There are one or two groups in the U.S. who are actually working on superconducting cables. So, you know, this may be a reality sooner than you think. At the moment it's on fairly short length, I understand, kilometers. We still have a way to go before we get to hundreds or thousands of kilometers. But you know, I'm pretty sure it's going to come. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. And we have already seen incredible things on that level, like the Maglev trains in Japan that run on superconductors, right? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, this - the Maglev train in Japan is absolutely incredible. It's almost impossible to describe. But it's low-altitude flying - it's about two inches off the ground. And this thing travels at hundreds of kilometers, in excess of 500 kilometers per hour. And it's really just levitated. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): The superconductor is used to remove all mechanical contact between the train and the track, so there's no friction whatsoever. The only limiting - limit to its velocity is actually air friction and air resistance. So this thing flies along at many hundreds of kilometers an hour. And it's absolutely extraordinary. The downside is that it's very expensive, which is why we don't see widespread application of Maglev. Basically, the cost is in the track. It's very expensive to make track that will levitate to superconducting magnet. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): But, you know, it's a spectacular example of what can be done. IRA FLATOW, host: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow, talking with David Cardwell, the chair of the superconducting group at the Institute of Physics in the U.K. IRA FLATOW, host: How - give us some idea how high you can raise the temperature of a superconductor before it stops doing its thing. I mean, how high have we gotten and is there a theoretical limit? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Yeah. Again, another good question. There was a theoretical limit, and this came from the BCS theory. So absolute zero is minus 273 degrees centigrade. You can't get below that. So BCS theory said that superconductivity was limited to about 28 Kelvin, so that's 28 degrees C above this absolute zero. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): So when a superconductor was discovered with a Tc close to 28 Kelvin, everybody stopped looking. And again, back to what I said earlier, you can only disprove a theory. A couple of guys, Bednorz and Muller, working in our lab in Zurich, beavered away and reported a material with a Tc of 36 Kelvin, so beyond the BCS limit. And that kind of opened the floodgates. And the record now - remember, BCS had a maximum of 28 degrees centigrade above absolute zero - the world record now is 166 degrees... IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): ...above absolute zero. Amazing, I know. IRA FLATOW, host: Scorching. Scorchingly hot. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Yeah. IRA FLATOW, host: And so is there... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Well, maybe it's approaching room temperature if you live in Finland or somewhere like that... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): It's still pretty cold for... IRA FLATOW, host: But people are looking for a higher level now, yeah? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): They are, yeah. I mean, essentially physicists want to look at materials with higher and higher Tcs because that tells you about the mechanism of superconductivity. And I have to say that the mechanism of superconductivity in the new materials - we call them high-temperature superconductors, is still not known. There's you know, some people say there are as many theories as there are theoreticians. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): So it's a very complicated phenomenon, and we just don't understand this at the moment. But the hope is that if we can get superconductivity at higher temperatures, we'll understand the mechanism. IRA FLATOW, host: So is... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): The engine yeah, sorry? IRA FLATOW, host: So is the idea that you just put different alloys or different metals and throw it back into the nitrogen and see what happens or -like (unintelligible) did in his first experiment? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Certainly we've tried that and it doesn't going to get you very far. I mean, materials that superconduct at high temperatures are complex metal oxides. So typically they'll have three or four metallic elements there, and there'll be oxygen, there might be some other non-metal as well. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): So it's not a matter of kind of mixing up lots of different materials and seeing. What we need to do is to understand what's going on, look at things like how many electrons are in the material, what's the stretch of the material, how do the electrons interact with those atoms, what type of atoms and kind of constitutions do make good superconductors, and then have a good theoretical basis, and we just don't have that. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): So, I mean, the other views that engineers would take, which says that we don't really care about Tc, we don't care if it's room temperature, all we're interested in is how much current it can carry at a temperature that we're going to operate. The more current the better because the more current in the field, the bigger the field. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): And currently we operate at about 20 degrees above the boiling point of liquid nitrogen, which is a convenient temperature to operate at. And we get very good properties at liquid nitrogen temperature. So this high-temperature superconductor, this 166 Kelvin superconductor, doesn't have properties that's as good as another material with a Tc of 92 Kelvin. IRA FLATOW, host: How... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Not Tc, it's Jc, an ability to generate field. IRA FLATOW, host: How much total money worldwide is going into this, do you think? Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Wow... IRA FLATOW, host: I mean, is it going to be $100 million, 10 million? Give an order of magnitude... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): Right. So the U.K., for example, if you look at company investment, research investment, is of the order of millions of pounds a year. How many millions, I can't tell you, but it's less than 10. IRA FLATOW, host: So it's very little, actually, compared to other science... Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): It is. In the U.K. it's very little. But to be fair, high-temperature superconductivity was discovered 25 years ago. There's been a lot of investment in the field, particularly in the U.S. as well. I mean, you have some pretty important laboratories there - things of Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, MIT. You know, there's been lots of work done on superconductors. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): And you also have good companies - Boeing, for example. I'm working at the moment with Boeing. They're developing a flywheel energy storage system. And I mean, that's got enormous potential to revolutionize the energy storage industry. And again, it relies on superconductors for magnetic levitation to keep the loss of... IRA FLATOW, host: We're going to get back - we've run out of time, but I want to pick up on this whole flywheel technology. It is fascinating, very old and very useful, but we'll have to drop it for another day. Thank you very much, Dr. Cardwell, for taking time to be with us. Dr. DAVID CARDWELL (Chair, Superconductivity Group, Institute of Physics): OK. Thanks. Good to speak to you. IRA FLATOW, host: Thank you. David Cardwell, chair of the superconductivity group at Institute of Physics in the U.K. and a professor of superconducting engineering at the University of Cambridge.

In 1911, Heike Kamerlingh Onnes discovered that some materials exhibit zero resistance to the flow of electricity at extremely low temperatures—they are superconductors. Physicist David Cardwell discusses their use for applications as diverse as particle physics experiments and magnetic resonance imaging.

1911 entdeckte Heike Kamerlingh Onnes, dass einige Materialien dem Stromfluss bei extrem niedrigen Temperaturen keinen Widerstand entgegensetzen – sie sind Supraleiter. Der Physiker David Cardwell diskutiert ihre Verwendung für so unterschiedliche Anwendungen wie Experimente in der Teilchenphysik und Magnetresonanztomographie.

1911年，海克·卡末林·昂尼斯发现一些材料在极低的温度下，其电阻会突然降为零——它们就是超导体。物理学家大卫·卡德维尔讨论了它们在粒子物理实验和磁共振成像等方面的应用。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. This is NEWS & NOTES. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: The southern African nation of Zimbabwe has become a target of international attention following the beating of opposition party activists. NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton is in Harare, Zimbabwe, giving us a first-hand look at the turmoil. So thank you for joining us. It's very unusual for a reporter to get into Zimbabwe these days. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Well, I said to the government you complain that the international media and that the Western media only gives one side of the story, so I'm coming in officially and I'd like to be given accreditation, please, so that I can get your side of the story as well as the opposition's side. So that's why NPR has been allowed here. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, let's start out with the situation surrounding two opposition party activists who were injured in a protest. Tell us what has been going on with them as the most recent development. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: The two in question, two women - one, a 64-year-old grandmother, Sekai Holland, and Grace Kwinje, who's a younger activist of The Movement For Democratic Change here in Zimbabwe - were amongst the opposition leaders who apparently went to look at what had happened to colleagues after a peaceful prayer meeting that the opposition said it was withholding on the 11th of March turned violent when the police decided to crack down on opposition activists. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Now, they had gone to find out what had happened to their colleagues when they were taken into police custody and they say were beaten brutally. If you look at Mrs. Holland - a 64-year-old woman, as I say - she has bruises all over her body. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: She's got a broken arm, a broken leg. And despite that, she says she is feeling strong because Zimbabwe and democracy is what she is fighting for. This morning, Madame Holland and Ms. Kwinje were flown out of the country. They tried at over the weekend to leave, but their passports were confiscated and they were taken back to Avenues clinic here in Harare. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: But today, they have been able to leave. I was actually at the clinic with them in the morning as they were being medevaced, a medical evacuation to South Africa. And both women were looking a little frail, I have to say, after the ordeal they had been through. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: They were - both said they have been beaten for about six hours and then didn't receive proper medical attention for three days. But both of them said that they were looking forward to coming back to Zimbabwe because they want to continue the fight for democracy in their country. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Zimbabwe has been analyzed many times by many people in different countries as effectively a one-party state. And The Movement For Democratic Change has not been able to be a fully-fledged member of the political system in Zimbabwe. You mentioned that you were there to get different sides of the story. Have you been able to talk to major party officials from ZANU-PF? OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: I haven't yet. I have put in a bid to speak to President Robert Mugabe because, of course, he's a leader of Zimbabwe. But I have spoken to some people who deal with news and information and publicity because they are the people who give out accreditation. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: The government maintains that opposition activists attacked the police and that the police responded. And the police responded apparently very brutally. That's why there's been such an international reaction from Washington, from London, Britain - the former colonial power - and more mutedly from other African countries that this has got to stop. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Zimbabwe has got to find some solution. But the government maintains that the opposition, as President Mugabe put it, shameless stooges and mischief-makers who are plotting with the West, especially the government in London, to overthrow his government. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Everybody, though, is saying there has to be dialogue. I'm coming from a press conference held by the archbishop of Bulawayo, Pius Ncube, who said everybody must get on the streets to say no to violence, no to repression, no to what's going on. But that there's got to be a peaceful dialogue, that there's got to be peaceful change in this country, and that everybody must stand up as one to say no. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Ofeibea, you have really some unprecedented access, and we hope to talk to you again before you leave Zimbabwe. Thank you so much. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: I'm sure you will. And I hope we will be able to talk to about what ordinary Zimbabweans are saying about the situation. Bye-bye. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton is in Harare, Zimbabwe.

Two opposition activists arrested in Zimbabwe over the weekend have been released. The government of Robert Mugabe is widely seen as being behind a series of recent attacks on political opponents.

Zwei am Wochenende in Simbabwe festgenommene Oppositionelle wurden freigelassen. Die Regierung von Robert Mugabe wird allgemein als Hintermann einer Reihe von jüngsten Angriffen auf politische Gegner angesehen.

上周末在津巴布韦被捕的两名反对派活动人士已经获释。人们普遍认为，穆加贝政府是最近一系列攻击政治对手事件的幕后黑手。

NEAL CONAN, host: For many Pakistani-Americans, reaction to the death of Osama bin Laden was a little complicated - elation and relief combined with concern over the future of U.S. relations with Pakistan, and about heightened security, which may make life harder for all Muslims in the United States in general, and Pakistani-Americans in particular. NEAL CONAN, host: We'd like to hear from the Pakistani-Americans in our audience. What's changed for you since the killing of Osama bin Laden? 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. Go to npr.org, click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Wajahat Ali focuses on Islamophobia at the Center for American Progress and joins us from a studio in Berkeley, California. Nice to have you with us today. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): Thanks for inviting me. Appreciate it. NEAL CONAN, host: And I wondered, where were you when you when you heard the news about Osama? Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): You know, it's interesting, I was actually attending a dinner at the Bay Area Muslim American lawyers' annual dinner. So it was a whole bunch of Muslim American attorneys sitting in a room, and a lot of them were, you know, Pakistani-Americans or children of Pakistani immigrants. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And, of course, because I'm a child of the 21st century, I was attached to my Twitter on my smartphone. And I found out about it on the tweets. And then, of course, I became glued. NEAL CONAN, host: And what happened in that room? What was the response? Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): The response was, you know, once the speaker had finished speaking and all of us, you know, gave him an applause, there was - the word spread and there was a sense of, if you will, of relief, a kind of a catharsis, which was shared by, I think, most Americans. At the same time, this was a somewhat savvy crowd of attorneys and civil rights attorneys, and there were a realization of OK, you got Osama bin Laden, but now what, or so what, in the sense that the war on extremism and the war in ignorance still continues. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And also, there was this minority prayer. I always say the minority prayer that we didn't really know he was found in Pakistan at that time, it was in breaking news. And the minority prayer goes something like this: Anytime there's sensationalist news or there's a suspect, like Faisal Shahzad, the New York - the failed New York Times bomber - before we find out, you know, the identity of the suspect, we - every minority group prays to God that it's not one of us. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And then lo and behold, we found out it was in - found in Pakistan, in Abbottabad, 800 yards away from an elite military training camp. And all of a sudden, we said, oh, God: Pakistan, of course. NEAL CONAN, host: Pakistan, of course. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And so, as a multi-hyphenated identity of a Pakistani-American-Muslim, I'm like, OK, this is going to be interesting. NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah. You misspoke there you didnt mean the New York's Times' bomber, the New York Times Square bomber. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): New York Times Square bomber, of course, yes. Thank you. Thank you for protecting me. NEAL CONAN, host: And it was interesting, you wrote a piece for the Huffington Post, and you called it the "Post-Osama Muslim American," where you describe that post-9/11 moment when you suddenly became one of them, as you put it. Is this another defining moment like that, do you think? Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): I don't necessarily think it's as defining. I think it's a continuation of this lumping effect that's - happens specifically post, you know, the "post", quote, unquote, "9/11." As I said, there has been a permanent fork in the timeline of the Muslim American narrative, I would say the global narrative of a pre-9/11 and a post-9/11. And Pakistan, specifically, came into play with a 7/7/2005 London subway bombing in England. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And since then, the past six years, unfortunately, the news regarding Pakistan has been one of, you know, the narrative has been painted with only one or two colors: Extremism, violence, anti-Americanism, which is, of course, not a reflection of the immense diversity of the Pakistani-American experience and Pakistani's experience of themselves. You know, that's a country of 170 million people. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): But unfortunately, you know, these moments of sensationalist violence have come to, if you will, define the narrative in the eyes of many of what it means to be either Pakistani or Muslim. And there's a lumping effect, where even, you know, individuals here who are born and raised in America but happen to have a certain last name or that is, quote-unquote, "Muslim" or "ethnic" or look a certain way - even the Sikh Americans, for example, last month in Elk Grove in California. And, you know, they say it was a hate crime against two Sikh gentlemen, and they were shot because the people who shot them thought that they were Muslim. And I like to liken it to this. It's like being Daffy Duck. The anvil always drops on your head. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): You know? And here we are, you know, Pakistani-Americans, we haven't done anything, but the anvil will still drop on our head due to the perverse criminal actions of a misguided few. NEAL CONAN, host: I'm glad you used that analogy. I might have gotten into trouble if I had. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): Good. That's why you invited me. I get to say the controversial (unintelligible). NEAL CONAN, host: Politically incorrect things. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): Of course. NEAL CONAN, host: In the meantime, there are a lot of people in Pakistan upset with the United States for the continued drone attacks on terrorist targets in the tribal areas. And a lot of people are angry at the United States, including the prime minister for violation of Pakistan's sovereignty by sending a team of Navy SEALs across the border and silenced helicopters to attack someone who is, well, turned out to be Osama bin Laden. But nevertheless, there is resentment over that sort of nationalist strain. Is there part of that reaction that reaction too? Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): Well, I mean, I think it's a great opportunity to explain the difference between Pakistanis and the Pakistani (unintelligible) government. You know, and secondly, this episode cannot be seen in a cultural temporal vacuum. This goes back three decades, you know, this kind of volatile relationship between Pakistani and the U.S. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): The main reason why there is such low favorability rating towards the U.S. in Pakistan is not due to a hatred of U.S. values or U.S. culture, or even Americans. It's completely the opposite. It's because of, exactly what you said, a sense of what is perceived as insincerity - and this goes both ways - duplicity - and this goes both ways - and abandonment. And specifically for Pakistanis, you mentioned that there's the drone attacks. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): There seems to be a tremendous amount of apathy and anger of Pakistanis towards their own government in the fact that either, A, they're seen as Concord doormats of U.S. policy or, B, they're thoroughly corrupt and incompetent and they knew bin Laden was there and they didn't, you know, pursue him. Three, that they are lining their pockets and putting themselves, preserving their power at the expense of the interest of the Pakistani people. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And specifically when it comes to U.S., we have to realize there was a period in the '80s where, you know, the U.S. supported financially and militarily the dictatorship of Zia-ul-Haq. After the dictatorship had ended, there was a great moment where U.S., I think, could've really helped, if you will, bolster a sense of a Pakistani democracy, but U.S. walked away. And that sort of resentment is felt not only by the people but also the military. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And, of course, here in America, there's tremendous amount of resentment towards the Pakistani government because it's, like, OK. With the Kerry-Lugar Bill, you know, we've given you billions of dollars of aid in the past 10, 11 years. And here we have one part of your government saying, oh, we're chasing after the Taliban extremists and Osama bin laden and, lo and behold, Osama bin Laden is found 800 yards away from a military training camp in Abbottabad. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): So this is a volatile relationship. I, kind of, see it this way. Both of them see each other as a volatile mistress, who they court and bed once in a while. And then instead of taking out for a long-term dinner, just kind of ditch by the side of the road. NEAL CONAN, host: We're going to have you on regularly. Let's see if we can get some callers in on the conversation. 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. We want to hear from Pakistani-Americans in our audience. Maybe they're all that funny. Sanju(ph) joins us from Nashville. SAHJID (Caller): Sahjid(ph). NEAL CONAN, host: Go ahead, please. SAHJID (Caller): Yes. Basically, my comments were: there is a backlash. And backlash is more for people's ignorance towards the Pakistani-American. They don't see that this death of Osama was more for - better for Muslims in Pakistan and in America because he is the one who's killing more Muslims than Americans or any other nation's people. So the backlash here is because of the ignorance, and all they hear, the headlines, well, Osama was found in Pakistan and that's it. They don't see what the causes of his acts on the Muslims are and in Muslim countries and in America because the Muslims have suffered more because of what Osama has done to us. NEAL CONAN, host: I accept that. But I wanted to ask you about what Wajahat Ali and others have pointed out; that either the Pakistani government was complicit and elements knew that Osama was there and were helping them or they were incompetent and didn't know that he was there. SAHJID (Caller): Well, I can tell you there are elements of ISI that I definitely had information about it. And, yes, Pakistan is struggling with, right now, between the maybe 50-50 population that's more towards - going towards more modernized country versus some of the people who want to go back to the stone ages. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, ISI, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, a very powerful part of the military government, the military and government -you know, sort of - in Pakistan. And as somebody described it in the news the other day, a house with many mansions. And some parts of it may have known and other parts of it may have not. We don't really know about that. SAHJID (Caller): That is - OK. That's another thing I am trying to describe people here that that is so common. If you have lived in Pakistan, you will not that homes - yes, there are different classes of homes there. But the homes, bigger homes have boundaries, and that's how people like to live. It is surrounded by a wall and then the house in the middle. So that... NEAL CONAN, host: So the Osama compound, not that unusual in (unintelligible). SAHJID (Caller): Not that unusual. Especially in the part of the country that was located, totally not unusual. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, thanks very much for the call. Appreciate it. SAHJID (Caller): Thank you, sir. NEAL CONAN, host: And Wajahat Ali, I just wanted to ask you about his response. Do you think that's typical? Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): I mean, his response, I think, is a typical response in the sense that mainly that people want, you know, people need to realize that many of the victims of extremism in Central Asia have been Muslims and Pakistanis. Thirty thousand Pakistanis have died in the last, I say, 10 years. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And even this point needs to be made that, you know, I think it is fair to say that not all the civilian government or military government or military aspects of the government probably knew about it, but definitely we assume that some of them did, and, you know, specifically this complicated relationship between the ISI and the military and certain extremist groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba and whatnot. So to assume that, you know, everyone in the government knew about it, I think that would be too overbroad. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And secondly, again, I need to make a divide here between the Pakistani people and its (unintelligible) government. And the victims, again, of this incompetence, of this complicity, of this extremism, whatever you want to call it, have been the people. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): For example, you know, in the news, if you hear about Pakistan and suicide bombing, and I could tell you that this is a new phenomenon in Pakistan. You know, in the '90s and '80s, we've said, hey, there will be, you know, suicide bombings wracking the country, in different parts every month. People would say, oh, you're talking about the Middle East, not Pakistan. NEAL CONAN, host: Not Pakistan. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): So, you know, this is a changing landscape. NEAL CONAN, host: Wahajit Ali, a playwright, attorney and journalist, who wrote the piece "The Post-Osama Muslim World" for The Huffington Post. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: And let's get Nadine(ph) on the air, and Nadine with us from Dayton. NADINE (Caller): Yeah. Hi. This is Nadine. I'm calling from Dayton, as you mentioned. I have a couple of comments. First of all, I am not a U.S. citizen as yet. I've been in this country for the last 14 years. I came in 1997 when my daughter was 2 months old, my eldest son was 4 years old. NADINE (Caller): And we have gone through the process of immigration and so on and so forth, and, you know, at this juncture when all this is happening where we've sacrificed our homeland to get a new life, the American dream, I feel that now everything looks - seems to be so uncertain, in jeopardy while my son who's just gone to college, my daughter in high school. NADINE (Caller): And we still, well, travel on Pakistani passports, and each time we go to any area before this happened, we were looked always with some kind of suspicion, only it was not spoken, but we know what's going on. NADINE (Caller): But at this stage when all of this is happening and there so much element of mistrust developing on the suicide becomes very difficult to foresee how the future is going to play out of people who are in my situation, who are trying to make a life, that is trying to create a new life for their families in this country and yet have the label of being Pakistanis who are not too honest about U.S. policies and so on and so forth. That's one aspect of it. NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah. And... NADINE (Caller): And the second... NEAL CONAN, host: Well, very quickly if you would, yeah. NADINE (Caller): And the second aspect, I think a lot have to do with the perception on common man's mind in Pakistan. U.S. aid and U.S. government help and everything might be all appropriate unless and until it trickles down to the ground level, change will not come. The common man's mind have to be affected with all the efforts that the U.S. is doing. NEAL CONAN, host: And, of course... NADINE (Caller): If that doesn't get affected, then we will not going to change the perception that is there in the Pakistani people. NEAL CONAN, host: And the Pakistani government says, no, you need to give that money to us, so we can give it to the people. We don't want you to give it directly because... NADINE (Caller): And we know from experience that's never going to happen because... NEAL CONAN, host: Because it's going to stop in somebody's pocket. Wahajit Ali, that first part, though, there have to be a lot of people like Nadine who now are going to wonder if, A, it's going to be more difficult to travel in this country on a Pakistani passport and, B, if it's going to be more difficult to finally win that green Card. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): Well, I mean, he definitely makes a valid point in the sense we've already witnessed this significant amount of detentions, significant amount of harassment, significant amount of racial profiling against not only just Pakistanis but those who are, let's say, a browner hue. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): But specifically targeting Pakistani passports, of course, there was specific screening done of Pakistanis entering the United States, and, you know, the TSA was supposed to look for, you know, rope burns and, you know, all these other identifying markers because, again, like you mentioned, there's a moment of uncertainty, fear and ignorance. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And going back to the first point I was making, the lumping effect that, you know, 170 million people who claim Pakistan to be their home are now lumped with this iconic image of terror - Osama bin Laden - even though he wasn't even Pakistani, and it's just one big lumping effect where we have an enemy now that has a brown face and a foreign ethnic name and now for - right now in this moment in history, he - there's geographic location of Pakistan or a multi-hyphenated identity of Pakistani-American or Pakistani-British citizen and so forth which then makes all these, you know, regular Joes, these regular citizens, like these people who have called in the last 20 minutes, suspects instead of neighbors, instead of partners. NEAL CONAN, host: And we just have... Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And this type of mistrust needs to, you know, it needs to be eliminated. It's going to be poisonous. NEAL CONAN, host: We just have a minute left, and I wanted to ask you, though, a lot of people are worried that there will be an attempt at revenge, and again, there will be another moment if there's another terrorist attack when you and your fellow Pakistanis will sit there and say, please, God, he's not Pakistani. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): Yeah. And this is the uncertain, you know, this is the uncertainty that we all have to live with in this, you know, globalized world where there's cause and effect unfortunately. But we pray and we hope that that doesn't happen, and what we have to do is to take instead of reactive steps, we have to respond proactively, and specifically, you know, not abandon Pakistan as an ally and think about empowering the Pakistanis. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): And, of course, the point is how do you empower the Pakistanis by making sure that the government complies and, of course, is also an ally in this. And, of course, it's our job as Muslim-Americans or Pakistani-Americans now, again, to be proactive, tell our side of the story, grab the microphone, you know, share our narrative and make sure people learn and understand. NEAL CONAN, host: Wahajit Ali, a researcher and writer with a focus on Islamophobia at the Center for American Progress. NEAL CONAN, host: Thanks very much for your time today. Mr. WAJAHAT ALI (Center for American Progress): Thanks so much for inviting me. I appreciate it. NEAL CONAN, host: Tomorrow, a look at assisted living. An investigation in Florida raises questions about how facilities are regulated and whether residents there are safe. Join us for that. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

While many have felt a sense of relief since Osama bin Laden was killed in Pakistan, some Pakistani Americans have mixed feelings — some fear being stereotyped, while others are concerned the event will hurt U.S.-Pakistan relations. Wajahat Ali, writer and researcher, Center for American Progress

Während viele ein Gefühl der Erleichterung verspürten, seit Osama bin Laden in Pakistan getötet wurde, haben einige pakistanische Amerikaner gemischte Gefühle – einige befürchten, stereotypisiert zu sein, während andere besorgt sind, dass das Ereignis die Beziehungen zwischen den USA und Pakistan beeinträchtigen könnte. Wajahat Ali, Schriftsteller und Forscher, Center for American Progress

当奥萨马·本·拉登在巴基斯坦被击毙后，许多人感到如释重负，但一些巴基斯坦裔美国人的心情却很复杂——一些人担心受到偏见，其他人则担心这一事件将损害美巴关系。作家兼研究员瓦哈提·阿里以美国进步为中心。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: On today's Roundtable, Georgia lawmakers push for a Confederate Heritage Month and financial lenders partner with colleges to profit off of students. Joining our panel are Robert George, editorial writer at the New York Post; Callie Crossley, social and cultural commentator on the Boston television show Beat the Press; and Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, professor of globalization and education at NYU. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, there's Black History Month, Hispanic History Month, Gay and Lesbian Month - there's a lot of months. And now Georgia lawmakers have approved a plan to create a Confederate Heritage Month in the state. The decision discouraged some black legislators who recently asked for an apology for the state's role in slavery. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, April was mentioned as being the confederate history and heritage month, though, it would be a time when citizens of Georgia could honor the memory of the Confederacy and the people who contributed to the cause of, quote, "Southern independence." As for the pending apology legislation, one Republican member said he wasn't sure what they would apologize for. Another thought people should not be responsible for the sins of their fathers. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now that is a long-standing debate. Callie, what's going on here? Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Social and Cultural Commentator, Beat the Press): I, you know, I'm a Southerner so this is of deep interest to me. And I think what's going on is that there have been the folks who have been in support of the flag issue in many other states, who are feeling as though there is a part of their history that has not been acknowledged. And this is a way they get around the divisiveness of the flag and come to something that appears to be a little bit more subtle, really about just participation in the war and shouldn't that be talked about because that is in fact a part of the history of the South. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Social and Cultural Commentator, Beat the Press): At the same time, to have this going on, when there has not been much response to the apology legislation to me, is appalling. Because after all, an apology really is not about the current action. It's really about the acknowledgement of a history, of the large number of black people in the South, and that without acknowledging that... I mean, let's not forget that a lot of the stuff is still not in many textbooks. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Social and Cultural Commentator, Beat the Press): You know, this is ridiculous. So I'm hoping that, in fact, the black legislators and others of goodwill will join them in using this as a leverage really, to bring about that long-waited-for apology. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Marcelo, it sounds like a case of history versus history. Whose history gets to be told? Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): Well, it's also a confounding of really incommensurable issues here. The issue of the apology as has been framed by a number of the lawmakers, invokes a kind of a personal responsibility idiom... Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Social and Cultural Commentator, Beat the Press): I really feel. Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): ...that we all feel quite, we all understand and can empathize with. That's a very, very different from an official statement by the legislature. As a political corpus, in regards to a face of the history of the state of Georgia, of the South, of our country. So it is a matter of history versus history. Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): But there's also a need to reflect and to pay attention not to do farther, now symbolic violence, to what is very, a very complicated, a very complex, very painful history. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Robert, I'm thinking of the "Dukes of Hazard," and I did not see the movie but I understand from reading reviews that the Confederate flag was still on the top of the car in the movie version that was a huge commercial hit. And that there were all these running jokes about it as a way to deflect tension. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Are we at a point in time, I mean, I see Confederate flags in a lot of places. I mean, I've done road trips across this country twice, you know, so I see, I have been through the less Confederate flag places and the more Confederate flag places. Are we - this is not technically about the flag, but is it about the idea that this country will not heal from a war that happened well over a hundred years ago? Mr. GEORGE: I think it is. I think it is indeed the latter. I mean I don't have a problem... Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Social and Cultural Commentator, Beat the Press): Was that for me, Farai? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's for Robert. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Social and Cultural Commentator, Beat the Press): Okay. Mr. GEORGE: I don't have a problem per se with people, you know, privately having the flag going around here and there. Now, but speaking, I am, I'm a Northerner. I - the closest I've - I mean I lived in Washington, D.C. which, you know, is below the Mason-Dixon Line. I live in Washington, D.C. for several years, but I'm not really lived in the South, and I can say, I just don't necessarily get the South. Mr. GEORGE: When I often wonder when these debates are going on, why doesn't, why don't the Northern states just kind of step up and say, look, we won, you lost. Why on earth is this, you have this romance of, you know, the Confederacy and this, so we can all, you know, worship Southern independence, blah, blah, blah. The reason we, one of the reasons the Civil War was fought was the belief in the idea of the Union. And the North won, and the South lost, and so we have the Union. Mr. GEORGE: This worshiping of the Confederacy gets for me, personally, gets me about as annoyed as some people are upset because they think that the Mexicans are still planning on taking back, you know, taking back California and New Mexico. I think it's a little bit ridiculous. And I wish a large section of the country would just grow up. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Marcelo, I mean, could one make a case that California and New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado could go back, you know, to Mexico? I mean at what point do you say: okay, we are over with this. Or at what point do you say: well at least I'm bringing up this issue. What strikes me is that on some level, both an apology and a history month could be seen as symbolic actions, but symbolic of what you claim and what you reject. Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): Yes, indeed. I think Robert has it right that this is really a romance of defeat and it really relates to a peculiar psychology, to a peculiar... Mr. GEORGE: Institution. Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): ...cultural institution - right, to a peculiar institution -that takes very powerful, symbolic forms at a time when there - it seems to me the state of Georgia has more important things to address, including by the way, huge new Hispanic immigration into that state, since we're talking about California and New Mexico. The likelihood that those states will ever revert back to Mexico is minus zero, absolutely no possibility of that ever happening. It seems to me that there are... Mr. GEORGE: That was an Austrian-speaking governor. Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): Not with an Austrian-speaking government. That would make a funny - an Austrian governor of a New Mexican state. But they know more... Seriously, now, it seems to me that our country today is facing much more fundamental challenges. And the legislature should be addressing these issues -pertinent to health, pertinent to wages, pertinent to education. Let's get with the real agenda. Mr. GEORGE: And I would say, also, I mean, get - I think frankly, I'm tired of the whole apology stuff as well, because I think it is a lot of symbolic sound and fury(ph) that signifies absolutely nothing. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, you know, I want to reintroduce everybody. Just in case you're tuning in, this is NPR News, and I'm Farai Chideya. We've just been listening - Mr. GEORGE: Hi, Farai. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Thank you. It's a happy Monday. So we've been to listening to Robert George, editorial writer at the New York Post; Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, professor of globalization and education at New York University, which I used to live very close too; Callie Crossley, social and cultural commentator on the Boston television show Beat the Press. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And speaking of universities, Marcelo, what do you think of the whole deal with lenders and college partners. The New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo revealed information that may not surprise some college students. It seems that dozens of colleges and universities across the country have accepted financial incentives from student loan companies to bring them business. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, City Bank and education finance partners, profited from $85 billion, part of the $85 billion in federal and private loans students took out last year. Now the Attorney General Cuomo is still investigating a hundred more schools. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, is this a good thing, a bad thing that there are lenders who are partnering with colleges? Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): Well, it doesn't seem right is these special arrangements, especially in the context of the skyrocketing costs of university and college education in our country today. So anything that, in a way, (Unintelligible) general incentives for the lending companies to bypass and not to observe the general standard lending practices, any special sweet deals are to be looked at very, very seriously. Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): After all, today, a college education, a university education is really the promise for a meaningful state of mobility in our society. And anything that interrupts the flow of people with, especially, limited resources, to access college education should be looked at very, very seriously. This is a serious problem and I think the attorney general has a very, very interesting case here to pursue moving forward. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So the universities named include Drexel, Syracuse, Pace, Mercy College, I mean, you know, these are good schools. Robert, what do we think about this? Mr. GEORGE: I don't necessarily have a - the only problem I have about - I have a problem with this - the only problem I have with this is, is the, is the disclosure question. And as we say, you know, it may not come as a surprise that this is going on. But I was a little bit surprised to say, oh, really? They got this too-close of an arrangement. At least one of them, at least a couple of the colleges in a sense have offices that are on the campus. And when students call in, they're transferred supposedly to the Pace financial aid center, but in fact it happens to be Sallie Mae people working there. Mr. GEORGE: So I think from a disclosure standpoint, this is quite problematic, particularly given how the cost of college education have been rising at two or three times at least the level of inflation. So, you know, these issues, I think, are a little bit - I'm not saying that there's necessarily something illegal going on, but I definitely am always in favor of more openness in these kind of arrangements. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Marcelo, how much do you think students actually know about this stuff? I mean, you're on a campus. I certainly remember that I was in college back in, you know, what is now becoming the Jurassic age when credit card solicitations on campus weren't normal. But then they started saving in. Is this something that students even think about, let alone talk about? Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): Well, Farai, I was in college in the early Ice Age... Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): I think that students have no idea, and I think that I concur with Robert that the more transparency, the better. And when you confound these offices and you confound the rolls, there is really the potential of conflict of interest. So these need to be kept very, very separately, the universities need to offer students a whole array of possibilities in terms of lending. And these should be made very, very transparent so that everyone understands where the money's coming from, where the money is going to, and what are the returns the institution may be getting for setting up these special arrangements. My sense is that most students have no idea that this has been going on. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Callie, what do you think about the whole idea of colleges partnering with for-profit and, in some cases, government lenders to really just bring them in - on the one hand, you could say help them, on the other hand, you can say exploit them? Where do you fall on that? Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Social and Cultural Commentator, Beat the Press): Well, it reminds me a little bit about what the credit companies are doing in terms of interest just (unintelligible) money to make money off the backs of people for, you know, (unintelligible) really. And I'm appalled when I heard about it and read about it. You know, maybe I'd be in favor of it if at least it was really... FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You know what, Callie? We're having some technical problems with your line, and we're going to have to - we're going to have to let you go. I'm very sorry, Callie. We're going to obviously check in with you later. Sometimes, you know, it's live radio and bad things happen. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Robert, I'm going to give you the last word. We only have a minute left. But I apologize to Callie. We just couldn't stay with her on her line. Mr. GEORGE: And one of the things I think - point that Callie was trying to make as well is that a lot of these lenders have - the terms of the lending have changed over the years. These used to be purely non-profit organizations; they have now - like, Sallie Mae used to be nonprofit, it is now a for-profit organization. And the terms of the loans and the flexibility the students have in terms of re-financing loans and things like that have changed as well, very much in favor of the lender. So I think this is actually a good time to take a look at the entire student financing issue. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It is a big issue and we will return to it. Robert George, editorial writer of the New York Post, Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, professor of globalization and education at NYU, and Callie Crossley, who we couldn't hear enough of. But thank you all so much. Mr. GEORGE: Thank you. Professor MARCELO SUAREZ-OROZCO (Globalization and Education, New York University): Thank you. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: On tomorrow's Roundtable we'll talk about the indictment of three New York City police officers charged in the shooting of a young black man on his wedding day.

Monday's topics include discussion of a Georgia initiative to launch Confederate History Month and a look at how financial lenders partner with some colleges to profit from students. Farai Chideya's guests are Callie Crossley, a commentator on the Boston TV show Beat the Press; Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, professor of globalization and education and co-director of immigration studies at New York University; and Robert George, New York Post editorial writer.

Zu den Themen am Montag gehören die Diskussion einer Initiative in Georgia zur Einführung des Confederate History Month und ein Blick darauf, wie Finanzkreditgeber mit einigen Colleges zusammenarbeiten, um von Studenten zu profitieren. Farai Chideyas Gäste sind Callie Crossley, Kommentatorin der Bostoner TV-Show Beat the Press; Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, Professor für Globalisierung und Bildung und Co-Direktor der Einwanderungsstudien an der New York University; und Robert George, Redakteur der New York Post.

周一的主题包括讨论佐治亚州发起的联盟历史月活动，以及金融贷款机构如何与一些大学合作，从学生身上获利。法拉伊·迟迪亚的嘉宾是卡莉·克罗斯利，她是波士顿电视节目《击败媒体》的评论员；马塞洛·苏亚雷斯-奥罗斯科，纽约大学全球化与教育教授、移民研究联合主任；罗伯特·乔治，《纽约邮报》社论作家。

TONY COX, host: I'm Tony Cox, and this is NEWS & NOTES. TONY COX, host: For women's history month, commentator Betty Baye recalls a writer's retreat where she witnessed history in the making. Ms. BETTY BAYE (Columnist, The Courier Journal): The time was November, 1988. The place was a warm, warm, warm, warm Nassau, Bahamas. The occasion was Essence magazine's writers' conference, and I was feeling as giddy as a schoolgirl going off on my first date. Ms. BETTY BAYE (Columnist, The Courier Journal): Oh, my goodness. I could not believe my good fortune at being invited in the first place, and to share with so many writing sisters at once. But why not me? Essence magazine was, after all, the first place to ever publish anything that I had written. Ms. BETTY BAYE (Columnist, The Courier Journal): Still, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven being invited to be in the company of 27 other black writing women. From time to time, I watch the video from the retreat, and I keep the photo of our group prominently displayed on a bookshelf in my home. Ms. BETTY BAYE (Columnist, The Courier Journal): I still get chills recalling the great poet, Sonia Sanchez, chanting a prayer for all of us at the retreat and for black people everywhere. Before it was over, Sister Sonia had dissolved into no words, just gutteral grunts and groans. Ms. BETTY BAYE (Columnist, The Courier Journal): As well, the group was intrigued and some was spellbound as Ntozake Shange, author of the 1975 choreopoem play, "For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide/When the Rainbow is Enuf." She adopted the persona of a junkie when reading her piece about a woman who'd hoped to impress her drug-dealing boyfriend with how much she loved him by making him a gift of her very young daughter's virginity. It was deep. Ms. BETTY BAYE (Columnist, The Courier Journal): That retreat almost 20 years ago still is a highlight of my writing life. If I tried to tell even a tenth of what went on that weekend and who all was there, I'd be accused of namedropping, of showing off. So I won't tell it all. You just had to be there. Ms. BETTY BAYE (Columnist, The Courier Journal): Yet, I wish no more time to pass without me recalling in some public space the women who were at that Essence writers' retreat who have since retreated themselves to higher ground. They've left us who knew them - or just admired them from afar - wanting more: more of their poems, more of their books, more of their essays, magazine articles. Wanting more of their sister sighs, their sister hugs, and their words of encouragement when our thesis were due and we were suffering from writer's block and broken hearts. But alas: Toni Cade Bambara, 1939-1995. Sherley Anne Williams, 1944-1999. Octavia Butler, 1947-2006. Phyl Garland, 1935-2006. And Bebe Moore Campbell, 1950-2006. These sisters have written their last pieces, have sparred with their last editors, have made their final fixes in their copy on this side of eternity. They've taken their final bows. But alas: But because Toni and Sherley Anne, Octavia, Phyl and Bebe were writing women, they will not simply exit stage left and dissolve into the sunset forever. Like Phillis Wheatley and Harriet Jacob and Frances Harper and Ida Wells and Angelina Grimke and Gwendolyn Brooks and Audre Lorde and Dorothy West and so many other black writing sisters who've gone on. But alas: Heaven's newcomers also have bequeathed to us bodies of work that we can read, reread and contemplate anew. They've left behind bodies of work to inspire new generations of wannabes to pick up their pens and to stay strong and determined to tell the stories of black America that won't get told unless black women dare to tell them. TONY COX, host: Betty Baye is a columnist for The Courier Journal in Louisville, Kentucky.

For one of the participants, a gathering of black women writers was something to treasure for the rest of her life. Bettye Baye is a columnist for The Courier Journal in Louisville, Ky.

Für eine der Teilnehmerinnen war ein Treffen schwarzer Schriftstellerinnen etwas, das sie für den Rest ihres Lebens schätzen konnte. Bettye Baye ist Kolumnistin für den Kurier in Louisville, Kentucky.

对任何一位参与者而言，参加非裔女作家的聚会是她余生值得珍藏的回忆。贝蒂·贝耶是肯塔基州路易斯维尔《信使报》的专栏作家。

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. NEAL CONAN, host: At the best of times, a military marriage usually means relocation every couple of years or so, which can mean giving up a career of your own. And for almost 10 years now, military spouses face the flipside of long and repeated deployments, loneliness and constant dread. NEAL CONAN, host: Too often, military spouses suddenly find themselves recast as the primary breadwinner and, in many cases, as a caregiver and as an advocate, as well. NEAL CONAN, host: Tomorrow, the armed forces mark Military Spouse Appreciation Day. Today, we want to hear from military spouses. Call and tell us what we don't get about your life. 800-989-8255 is the phone number. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Later in the program, should we celebrate the death of Osama bin Laden? Clarence Page will join us. But first, military spouses, and we begin with Gina Rinder. Her soldier husband served two deployments in Iraq since 2006 and is now being treated for brain injury and post-traumatic stress disorder. Gina Ringer joins us from member station KUVO in Denver. And nice to have you today on TALK OF THE NATION. Ms. GINA RINDER: It's nice to be here, thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: And is it Rinder or Rinder? Do I have it right? Ms. GINA RINDER: It's Rinder. NEAL CONAN, host: Rinder, okay, good. I understand your plan was that your husband Sean would be career military. When did you realize that was going to have to change? Ms. GINA RINDER: After the 2008 deployment, he was having a lot of memory problems, back problems, emotional issues that came up from the brain injury, and we just realized it was time to retire. NEAL CONAN, host: I understand that there was also the prospect of a third deployment. Ms. GINA RINDER: There was. He was getting close to that third deployment. We were trying to get him help, and they kept saying he's still deployable. He was probably two months from that deployment before we finally got him listed as non-deployable and got him some therapy. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, we hope that things are going well. Ms. GINA RINDER: They are, thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Good. And I wanted to ask, though: You were obviously familiar with this life before his deployment to Iraq and had plans and had adjusted to it. But that involves some sacrifices from the get-go, does it not? Ms. GINA RINDER: It does. If I had chosen to work, I would have had to quit my job every two, three years, start again. I chose to stay home with my kids so that I can keep their life as stable as I can in the military environment. NEAL CONAN, host: Because even - there were going to be deployments, and there were going to be times when your husband was going to be away regardless. Ms. GINA RINDER: Right, it would happen. NEAL CONAN, host: And then, of course, his injuries changed everything. Ms. GINA RINDER: It did. His original plan was to stay in may be another 10 years, make sergeant major, you know, retire happy. And it just - we had to hurry up and get our degrees and prepare for a new career. It was like instead of a leisurely 10 years to go, we had to - you know, we thought we might have only six months to get ready. NEAL CONAN, host: Turn on a dime, really. Ms. GINA RINDER: It did. NEAL CONAN, host: How did that change - when he made the decision, you guys made the decision to retire, how did that change your financial situation? Ms. GINA RINDER: You start trying to save everything you can. You know, you start looking for civilian employment. Paying for college became an issue because you couldn't just go as you can afford it. You had to find a way to do it right now. So it got tight. NEAL CONAN, host: And what did you decide to study? Ms. GINA RINDER: I went in to study psychology. I ended up with a degree in criminal justice. So I chose to - I want to get into victim advocacy, working with crime victims. NEAL CONAN, host: I would guess that there's an aspect of advocacy that you had to take up on your husband's behalf, as well. Ms. GINA RINDER: There is. We'd go into all these appointments, and I think the issue a lot of times, was the doctors we would see are officers. And he'd - I don't think he felt right about challenging them and pushing them and saying: I need something more than this. I need more therapy. I need more help. So I would take that role. NEAL CONAN, host: And that's a difficult transition, too. You're changing a fundamental part of your relationship. Ms. GINA RINDER: It is. You don't want to feel like you're micromanaging his life, but you want to do what you can to help. NEAL CONAN, host: And now as you go ahead, you were going to be a stay-at-home mom, you still had those kids. Ms. GINA RINDER: I do. My youngest will be in school this year. So I'll be back at work. It might turn around that he's the guy who stays at home. So it'll be a total turnaround. NEAL CONAN, host: In part, your education was possible through a scholarship for spouses of wounded warriors. Tell us a little bit about that. Ms. GINA RINDER: Well, I had gotten this email one day from the FRG about this scholarship from CTU, and... NEAL CONAN, host: You're using some acronyms there. You're going to have to help us out. Ms. GINA RINDER: Oh, I'm sorry, Colorado Technical University. It was for spouses of wounded soldiers so they can get their lives together, get ready for civilian employment to support the family. And I went ahead and applied, and they are paying for my entire master's degree. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, that's good news. I'm sure that changed your situation quite a bit. As I understand it, that is part of a wounded warrior scholarship program that's mostly set up for veterans who come back who have injuries. Ms. GINA RINDER: Right. Every year, Colorado Technical University gives 25 scholarships to the wounded soldiers and 25 scholarships to their spouses. NEAL CONAN, host: And so has - were you aware of the other people in the program there with you in school? Ms. GINA RINDER: No, I'd never met any of them before. NEAL CONAN, host: No, I mean, while you were there, did you get to know them? Ms. GINA RINDER: Oh, I did. There was one wife that was at our table at the banquet we went to, and she was going into the same career as me. So, you know, I thought that would be good. We can hopefully run into each other again and support each other. NEAL CONAN, host: Does - at this point, do you expect that Sean is going to be able to go back to work at some point? Ms. GINA RINDER: At some point. I think it's going to be a while. I think he's going to - maybe part time, maybe take a break first, because he's made a lot of progress, but I don't think he should push it too hard. He needs to take time to heal. NEAL CONAN, host: We want to talk, today, with military spouses, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: And we'll start with Ed(ph). Ed's on the line with us from Newport News in Virginia. ED (Caller): Yes, hi. I'll be very brief because this is really for the spouses to be talking. My wife, of course, and myself - I'm in the military. And I really just want to make two quick points. One is that the - these folks, the military spouses, while their soldiers are deployed, are really struggling. ED (Caller): I mean, this is very, very difficult for them, emotionally and practically, because of the fact that they have got to, in my case, raise my two - our two children, really on their own. And so they do a superb job. And it's interesting, the dynamic in which when the soldiers do come home, often there's people coming out of the woodwork that want to participate in the homecomings when they haven't really helped the spouse over the course of the 15 months or 12 months or how long the deployment was. And that, I think, causes some tension with the spouses. ED (Caller): I mean, they needed help, they haven't gotten it, and now the soldier comes home, and then everyone wants to gather around to celebrate, although they haven't participated in that sacrifice. ED (Caller): And the other quick thing, and I'll stop, is: you know, you're really hitting on a very important point, and that is this: We hear about the soldiers that we lose in Afghanistan and Iraq or wherever else. I think that we often forget, though, the incredible, lifelong sacrifices that are often excruciatingly painful, not just for the actual injured soldier but also for the spouse -whether it's the husband or wife - and also the kids that are going to have to endure this for the rest of their life. NEAL CONAN, host: That's a good point, Ed. I wonder, Gina Rinder, we're talking about you and your husband. What about your kids? Are they of an age at this point where they comprehend what's going on and the extent of their sacrifice? Ms. GINA RINDER: The two older kids understand. They know that, you know, dad's got a brain injury that he's recovering from, that there's going to be a big change. He's getting out of the Army. The younger two, I'm pretty grateful they don't. Ms. GINA RINDER: They're too young to understand. I'm hoping it doesn't affect them very much. NEAL CONAN, host: And I was wondering also about Ed's other point, that during the long deployments, sometimes it gets really hard, and when Johnny comes marching home, everybody gathers round. Ms. GINA RINDER: Yeah, we didn't have any problems with that in my family because everybody was pretty supportive. But, I know there are a lot of families that the spouse feels forgotten during the deployment, and then when Johnny comes marching home, they all want to fly in to the Springs(ph) and be there to welcome him, and she's like: You know, what gives you the right? NEAL CONAN, host: Ed, thanks very much for the call, appreciate it. ED (Caller): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: And I also wanted to ask this question about how much support you feel like you're getting in the aftermath, when your husband is on his way out of the military, when he's being treated for injuries. Ms. GINA RINDER: Now that he's made it into the warrior recovery unit, they're taking good care of him. He has a nurse case manager who oversees everything, makes sure he gets whatever he needs, that people - that doctors are helping him. Ms. GINA RINDER: He's got a good primary care doctor who takes good care of him. He's got a good rapport with several of his therapists. The process of getting into there is a lot of work. It takes a lot of perseverance to get to that point. NEAL CONAN, host: Is there a support network for you? Ms. GINA RINDER: I have my family. That's my main support. We have our church, too. NEAL CONAN, host: And you feel like you're getting help there? Ms. GINA RINDER: Yeah, that - it's enough. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get to another caller. This is Rolf(ph), Rolf with us from Fort Hood in Texas. Rolf, are you there? ROLF (Caller): Yes, I'm here. NEAL CONAN, host: You're on the air. Go ahead, please. ROLF (Caller): Hi. Yeah, I just wanted to share my story. I'm a dual military couple. My wife is in Iraq right now. I'm back home in Fort Hood. While she was on this deployment, I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, and I had to spend six weeks in the hospital. ROLF (Caller): And that meant that my wife had to try to run our household from 8,000 miles away. It's just an example of how difficult this can be on both spouses, really. After having four deployments, you know, I kind of met my breaking point, and thank God she was able to run things as well as she could from overseas. NEAL CONAN, host: You're having a little problem with your cell phone, but do you guys have kids? ROLF (Caller): No, we're actually very lucky we don't have kids yet, because we luckily only had to run a dog and a cat, and even just trying to find arrangements for them was nearly impossible for my wife. ROLF (Caller): She was trying to pay for everything through PayPal, trying to make phone calls and emails, just a real difficult time for both her and I. NEAL CONAN, host: I can imagine the difficulties. Just the time differences make things almost nightmarish. Rolf, thanks very much. We wish you and your wife the best of luck. ROLF (Caller): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking today about military spouses, the sacrifices and their contributions. If your husband or wife serves in the military, call and tell us what we don't get about your life. Email us, talk@npr.org. Or you can call 800-989-8255. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking about military spouses, men and women on the home front who keep the family, the home, the business together and running while their husbands or wives serve half a world away. NEAL CONAN, host: Tomorrow marks Military Spouse Day, first celebrated in 1984, when President Ronald Reagan honored the contributions of military spouses. It's now an annual tribute the Friday before Mother's Day. NEAL CONAN, host: We want to hear from military spouses. Call and tell us what we don't get about your life, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Our guest is Gina Rinder, her soldier husband served two deployments in Iraq and is now being treated for brain injuries and post-traumatic stress disorder. Most us understand that military spouses make sacrifices. We tend to think less often of the specific challenges of spouses of wounded warriors. NEAL CONAN, host: Many veterans can return from tours with missing limbs, brain injuries, emotional scars. Joining the conversation now is Judith Markelz. She directs the Warrior and Family Support Center at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, and she joins us there by phone. Nice to have you with us today. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Good afternoon. Thank you for having me. NEAL CONAN, host: And I wonder: How do the needs of spouses of wounded servicemen and -women differ from other military spouses? Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Well, in so many cases, spouses, particularly here at Fort - at Brooke Army Medical Center are away from home. They're brought here because of the severe injuries of their spouse, their husband or wife. And so they've not only left their home and transitioned to what is a guest house or one of the Fisher Houses, but they have left everything familiar to them to come here and be with their wounded warrior. NEAL CONAN, host: You said Fisher Houses. What are those? Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Fisher Houses were - are built by the Fisher Foundation, and they are homes where families - they are buildings where families can stay free of charge. NEAL CONAN, host: Now temporary location, as you just mentioned, that makes it difficult to anybody to sustain any kind of a career. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Yes, sir, it absolutely does. For the most part, they start again. NEAL CONAN, host: And most of them are starting with another career, too: caregiver. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): That is correct, and in many cases, that career will be totally care provider. Finding part-time jobs is extremely difficult, and they have to meet the needs of the appointments of their spouse, which is the first priority. NEAL CONAN, host: And I wonder: What kinds of problems do they come to you with? Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Oh, they come to me with anything and everything. Even the smallest problems can become extremely great when you're in a totally different surrounding. And so it's everything from - in many - sometimes we've lost identification cards. Sometimes we need activities to do. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): One of the biggest issues is we do provide child care, and so it provides a place for their children to go, and we have a school on Fort Sam Houston that will provide educational needs. But all those seem insurmountable when this first happens. NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email we have from Loretta(ph) in Marlton, New Jersey: As a new military wife, six months, I think that it's the civilian employers that must have more understanding of the spousal role in the military. NEAL CONAN, host: There are many times that we are counted on by our spouses for things they can't do, don't have time for, can't get time away from their jobs to do. NEAL CONAN, host: On the flip side, the military must also understand that we spouses also work full-time, civilian jobs. There are services and classes for spouses, but most are only offered during business hours. On the whole, we need support from both the civilian and military world. NEAL CONAN, host: I wonder, Gina Rinder, if that sounds familiar to you. Ms. GINA RINDER: I was thinking as you said that that I've noticed a lot of the classes they have are during business hours. NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah, it's when they can have the classes, not necessarily when you can make them. Ms. GINA RINDER: Right. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get another caller in on the conversation. Let's go to Yvonne, Yvonne with us Slater in Iowa. YVONNE (Caller): Yes. NEAL CONAN, host: Hi there. YVONNE (Caller): Hi. We had - I mean, both my husband and I served in the Army National Guard, and although neither of us was deployed overseas, I did see the problems that arose when a National Guard unit is deployed. Those people may be from all over the state of Iowa, not just from that area. YVONNE (Caller): So their family support groups, you may have to drive 300 miles to get the same services that an active Army post has right there for the active troops. So that's a problem that I think a lot of people don't understand, especially for the National Guard troops that are deployed quite frequently. NEAL CONAN, host: All right, I hadn't realized that, Yvonne. Thanks very much for that. YVONNE (Caller): Okay, thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Bye-bye. Here's Chrissie(ph), an email from Columbia, South Carolina: As an Army wife whose husband hasn't deployed yet, I feel really lucky. I know spouses and soldiers who have lost years of their marriages and years with their children from multiple deployments. NEAL CONAN, host: I'm lucky enough to be attending school, but I have never been able to go to a grounded campus. I attend purely online. My husband is an officer, and I have family funds that my grandparents set aside for my school. The Army needs to focus on spouses' education and care for their mental health. NEAL CONAN, host: And Gina Rinder, you were able to go to school at Colorado Technical University. That's a physical campus. You didn't have to take classes online. Ms. GINA RINDER: They have a physical campus, but the wounded warrior scholarships are for the online programs, so - which is really good for the military. You don't have switch schools if you PCS, move to another area. You can stay in the same classrooms with the same teachers and not end up like some of us, with transcripts from four or five different colleges. So it really is a benefit to the military. NEAL CONAN, host: I see. It's a benefit to take the classes online. Ms. GINA RINDER: Yes. NEAL CONAN, host: I hadn't thought that through. Okay, that's interesting. Let's go next to Jan(ph), Jan calling us from Tucson. JAN (Caller): Hi. First I wanted to say that I can't even imagine what the wives go through or the families go through, and I really appreciate all that they and their husbands do. JAN (Caller): And my question is: In Tucson, we do have a large base, and I'm not a military wife, but I know that there's a lot of restrictions on, you know, going on base or communicating or getting in there. JAN (Caller): And I was wondering: As a community member, I know there are programs that help the troops to send food and that kind of stuff, but I don't - what can we do as a community that - or even as individuals, you know, if we wanted to do something, what could we do for the families, or the wives specifically, that are in town or, you know, that need help? JAN (Caller): I mean, what can do, and how would we go about it because I wouldn't have the first clue because of all the restrictions. NEAL CONAN, host: Judith Markelz, I wonder if you have any advice. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Yes, I do. Actually, the restrictions aren't that great. Right now, to get on Fort Sam Houston, you do have to have a picture identification card and a destination, if you will. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): But on most military installations, there are organizations, for example here Army Community Service, that will help guide you in ways. There are so many ways that you can help military spouses and family members who have loved ones who are deployed or wounded. And those ways start from simple things like saying thank you. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Other ways here, because we have the Warrior Family Support Center, people constantly are bringing in wonderful things like donated baked goods. And food is the universal language, I've discovered, for everyone. And it brings people from all different, diverse backgrounds together. And all of our warriors and their families are here for a common cause, and that is the healing of their loved one. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Food is the avenue to gather people. And once you've got that, they've got support for each other. But here in San Antonio - Military City, USA -community is everything. We would not exist without the support of this city. NEAL CONAN, host: Jan, I've been to Tucson, and you really can't be there very long without being made quite aware there's a rather large Air Force base outside. JAN (Caller): Absolutely. Well, so if I understand correctly, then if I had an idea, or I wanted to do something for the wives or for the families of our troops, then all I would need to do is go to the base and try to get access? I mean, is there a process of calling? I mean, do you have an idea of - I understand what you're saying is, you know, you just need an ID, but, you know... NEAL CONAN, host: And a destination, so probably a phone call ahead to say: Who can I talk to? Who's in charge of community relations? Who's in charge of...? JAN (Caller): So it's not as hard as it seems? NEAL CONAN, host: Probably not. JAN (Caller): Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you very much for everything you do. It's a great show. Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Thank you, Jan. JAN (Caller): Bye-bye. NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Ravenna(ph): I haven't been a military spouse for very long, just a few months now, but what I've noticed is that other spouses I've met are extremely capable women, and sometimes men. The other officers' wives I met in particular are lawyers, doctors, nurses themselves. NEAL CONAN, host: There is a certain luxury in being a military spouse, being able to stay at home with the children, to volunteer, but put in a crunch, and in some ways all of military life is one big crunch, these men and women always come through. It's a job, and it requires you to be strong and individualistic, as well as supportive. NEAL CONAN, host: I wonder if, Gina Rinder, you found that your fellow military spouses are very capable men and women? Ms. GINA RINDER: I definitely think that. You have to be independent, and you have to be able to get anything done because especially once the spouses leave, you know, you're in charge of everything: fixing the car, taking care of the lawn, money. Any kind of crisis, everything is all on you. You have to make all the calls. And if you're not strong, how could you do it? NEAL CONAN, host: Email from Caitlin(ph) in Fayetteville, North Carolina: The military actually tell soldiers they can expect to be reassigned to a different location every 24 months. Can you imagine trying to plan and live a life moving every two years with one of those years being alone while your spouse is deployed? It's an absurd system. There are plenty of jobs to be filled on each base. When soldiers try and protest yet another move, it's met with a blank stare and total disregard for family life. NEAL CONAN, host: And again, let me ask, Gina Rinder, you know you signed up for that going in, yet it's pretty hard. Ms. GINA RINDER: It is. It gets frustrating. We were pretty fortunate. We - while we were out in Fort Irwin California, we were stationed there for five years, and that was like forever. And it was great. Ms. GINA RINDER: He came up on orders twice, and when we protested, he had - actually, his leaders protested. They went ahead and canceled it for him. So we didn't have to move as much as other people, but it gets hard, especially when your kids get older. It gets really hard for them to go a new school, make new friends. So it would be nice if they can keep them stationed in one spot longer. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see - we get Kevin on the line. Excuse me. David on the line. David with us from Tucson. DAVID (Caller): Yeah. How is it going? NEAL CONAN, host: Very well, thanks. DAVID (Caller): Yeah. I was just saying one of the stories I have is my wife and I, we're both active-duty flying crewmembers. And one of the difficulties we face since having a child was the daycare on base is only open from normal business hours, you know, from, I think, it's like seven to 5:30. But as flying members, you could be called into duty at four in the morning and be expected to stay much later than 5 o'clock. So, one of the hardest things to do with a dual-active military income - or a military couple is finding childcare. And it kind of seems that sometimes it's hard to get accommodated for when you're in a regular-duty-hours-style job. NEAL CONAN, host: And the flying regimen, as you say, is highly irregular hours and often called in at the last minute. DAVID (Caller): Oh, yeah. I mean, schedules can change the night before. When you do get a schedule, it could change, you know, almost the same day sometimes, so it kind of seems that the childcare - I understand the difficulties they would have to finding childcare for us, but, you know, the complication is there. NEAL CONAN, host: And your wife and you are both air crew? DAVID (Caller): Yes, sir. NEAL CONAN, host: That's - and you met doing that? DAVID (Caller): Yeah. Actually, we did, sort of, back in training, and we could also be deployed at any time too, so. NEAL CONAN, host: And what are you flying? DAVID (Caller): A variant of the C-130. NEAL CONAN, host: C-130. OK. The cargo planes, four-engine - and your wife as well? DAVID (Caller): Yes, sir. NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Well, good luck to you both. DAVID (Caller): Thank you, sir. NEAL CONAN, host: Appreciate that. We're talking today about military spouse. Tomorrow is Military Spouse Day. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION coming to you from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: And let's go next to - this is Kevin. Kevin calling from San Antonio. KEVIN: Yes. Hi. Thanks for taking my call. NEAL CONAN, host: Sure. KEVIN: I've been in the active-duty Air Force for 10 years. My wife is not active duty, but I just want to make the point that the life of a military spouse is just as hard when the member is actually at home. KEVIN: I mean, most people don't realize - and even San Antonio, I have a number of people look at my wife and say, well, you don't really have it that bad because your husband is here, and usually, those are people that have moved to San Antonio on purpose because their, you know, their mother is sick or their father is sick or they want to be close to family. KEVIN: My wife's family is in Virginia, and her parents are not in good health. You know, so some of the everyday things, you know, she's living not where she wants to live. She's at, you know, really the beckon call of the Air Force because I can be called and have been called at really on a 24-hour notice, in the middle of the night, we're disrupting, you know, birthday parties or any kind of emergency. KEVIN: You know, and a lot of people think, oh, well, your husband is here, it's really not that bad, but they don't realize that they're really just along for the ride. So when they - when members do get deployed, it's that much more difficult, but even when they're home, you know, we work very long hours. We can get called in any weekend or in the middle night. KEVIN: And when important family things do happen, you know, she can generally gets pressure from her family. Why aren't you in Virginia more? Well, you know, packing up our six-year-old, four-year-old and six-months-old, you know, for a thousand dollars of a plane ticket, you know, and trying to get through a, you know, an airport with two car seats and three strollers and backpacks and food, you know. And a lot of people don't appreciate how difficult it is, and I appreciate my wife's sacrifice. KEVIN: She's - I mean, we've lived in four places in 10 years, and she's repeatedly have to quit jobs and put her career on hold. And it's all because of, you know, all because of me. So I think a lot of times that gets lost. And obviously, when they're deployed, that compounds it tremendously, but even when they're home, it's extraordinarily difficult. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, Kevin, thanks very much for the call. Appreciate it. NEAL CONAN, host: And, Judith Markelz, I know we're talking about Military Spouse Day, but a lot of the - at least some percentage of the wounded that you see there in San Antonio, they're not married. And I wonder what their situation is? Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): The wounded that are not married, through some wonderful programs, we are able to bring their families here to live, you know, whether that be mom, dad or a brother to help provide care, because no one will argue the fact that you heal faster with the support of your family, which is an integral part of the human process here. NEAL CONAN, host: And so we think of military spouses and, of course, we should. That's the primary burden, but we have to think about military families. Yes, their children but their broader families too, their parents, their brothers and sisters. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): In many cases, because many of our warriors are younger, the care provider may be their mom, and again, she's got the same problems as spouses do. She leaves job. She leaves a home. And I agree with your former caller, for National Guard and reservists, it is extremely difficult because on a military installation, you have Family Readiness Group, people for support. But for National Guard, particularly, it may be miles from the nearest installation. So family is, like I said, an integral part of the healing process from all aspects. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get one more caller in. Let's go to Renee. Renee with us from Dayton. RENEE (Caller): Hi. I just wanted to call and say that military spouses are so lucky to have the community of the other military spouses. In our community at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, we're surrounded by amazing spouses and service members who - it just makes it so much easier. NEAL CONAN, host: And that support network really makes a huge difference then? RENEE (Caller): It's unbelievable. Without it, you couldn't make it. NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Renee, thanks very much. NEAL CONAN, host: I want to end with a couple of emails. NEAL CONAN, host: This from Kit(ph). Across the spectrum of the United States military from Marine to sailor to soldier, from enlisted private to three-star general, we spouses do what we do because we love our service members. While changing our lives to accommodate our spouses' careers is challenging and at times extremely painful, we do what we do purely out of love. The most important thing to remember when you meet a military spouse is simply to say thank you. We aren't going anywhere, but it's nice to be recognized every once in a while. NEAL CONAN, host: Gina Rinder, is Military Spouses Day an important day? Ms. GINA RINDER: I would say so, because there is a lot of sacrifice and a lot of hardship, and it's nice to be recognized. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, thank you very much for being with us today and good luck to both of you and your husband. Ms. GINA RINDER: Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Gina Rinder's husband, Sean, was injured while serving in Iraq. She's now studying to be a victim's advocate in Colorado Springs, where they're stationed at Fort Carson. NEAL CONAN, host: Our thanks as well to Judith Markelz, director of the Warrior and Family Support Center at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. NEAL CONAN, host: Appreciate your time today. Ms. JUDITH MARKELZ (Director, Warrior and Family Support Center, Fort Sam Houston): Thank you very much, Neal. NEAL CONAN, host: When we come back, Clarence Page and celebrating Osama. This is NPR News.

Military spouses — most often wives — contend with frequent moves, long separations, and the stress of managing households and family alone. And when a soldier is injured while serving, many military spouses must become the primary breadwinners, and in many cases, caregivers, as well. Gina Rinder, spouse of soldier Sean Rinder Judith Markelz, director, Warrior and Family Support Center at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio

Militärische Ehepartner – meistens Ehefrauen – kämpfen mit häufigen Umzügen, langen Trennungen und dem Stress, Haushalt und Familie allein zu führen. Und wenn ein Soldat während des Dienstes verletzt wird, müssen viele Ehepartner des Militärs die Hauptverdiener und in vielen Fällen auch Betreuer werden. Gina Rinder, Ehefrau des Soldaten Sean Rinder\nJudith Markelz, Direktorin, Warrior and Family Support Center in Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio

军人配偶——大多数是妻子——要应付频繁的搬家、长期的分居以及独自管理家庭的压力。当一名士兵在服役期间受伤时，许多军人配偶必须成为主要的经济支柱，在许多情况下，他们还必须承担照料职责。士兵肖恩·莱德的配偶吉娜·莱德；朱迪思·马克尔兹，圣安东尼奥市山姆·休斯顿堡战士和家庭支持中心主任

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. NEAL CONAN, host: The operation that sent members of SEAL Team Six to attack Osama bin Laden's compound last week may be the best-known mission ever conducted by this elite unit, but it and other Special Operations forces have become increasingly important to the conduct of America's wars over the past several years. NEAL CONAN, host: While conventional units from the Army and Marines focus on protection of the population in Afghanistan, for example, on what's called counterinsurgency, Special Forces organized into what's known as hunter-killer units concentrate on counterterrorism. They swoop in, usually at night, to target high and mid-level Taliban commanders. NEAL CONAN, host: If you have questions about the composition and use of U.S. Special Forces, give us a call. We'd especially like to hear from current or former members of the Special Forces. What do we need to understand about your jobs? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Later in the program, the Opinion Page. Do we need to be asking more questions about the ethics and legality of the bin Laden mission? But first, we're going to be talking about SEAL Team Six and other United States Special Forces units, and joining us here in Studio 3A is Julian Barnes, a reporter for the Wall Street Journal who covers military and national security. And thanks very much for coming in today. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Thanks for having me. NEAL CONAN, host: And this has been a steady move of emphasis as, particularly in Afghanistan, we see Special Forces taking more and more of the burden. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That's absolutely right. I think especially since 2009, when the Obama administration began, you saw more of a shift of units, Special Operations Forces. The Obama administration pulled them out of Iraq and moved them into Afghanistan. And we've seen almost a quintupling of the number of the most elite of these units. NEAL CONAN, host: And the most elite of these units, well, we've all heard about SEAL Team Six, and I guess everybody's probably heard of Delta Force too(ph). Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That's right, and this is what the U.S. government calls the special mission units when they acknowledge them. They're all part of Joint Special Operations Command, or JSOC, which also has Army Rangers in it, although those aren't always part of the JSOC. NEAL CONAN, host: And often transported and supported by a special tactical unit from the United States Air Force. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That's absolutely right. NEAL CONAN, host: And those fly, well, all kinds of interesting aircraft, as we saw in -we learned a lot about tradecraft in this most recent mission. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): We did. I mean, the U.S. keeps a lot of the tactics, techniques and procedures of these special mission units very secret. And a raid like the SEAL Team Six raid on the bin Laden compound opens that up, and we get to see a little bit about how they do what they do. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): For example, they use modified Blackhawk helicopters that appear to have some sort of stealth technology, something we didn't know about. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): And appeared to have - used a dog on the raid. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That's right. One can imagine that since dogs are regularly used in Afghanistan by conventional troops, that the elite units would use them as well. But we didn't know that, and so now there's some sort of superdog out there. NEAL CONAN, host: And the composition of that force, 79 men we're told, went out of those helicopters into the bin Laden compound. Do we know exactly who? Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Well, there were 79 people on the mission. I - what we've heard at the Wall Street Journal is about 24 or 22 of those people were as part of the raiding party that landed on the ground and went into the compound. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): You know, that's a large number for a place like this. That's something in the past that they have kept under wraps, to exactly how many people would go on a mission like this. NEAL CONAN, host: So the others would have been air crew or perimeter protection, that sort of thing? Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): They could be air crew. They could be other people who helped prepare back at the Afghanistan base where this was launched from. NEAL CONAN, host: Okay. As we look at this operation, though, yes, this is one of a kind. Nevertheless, it is representative of more and more of these missions in Afghanistan. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Yeah, I mean Leon Panetta said over the weekend: This is something these guys do multiple times a night. And there's some truth to that. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): There's no mission like going after bin Laden, but you know, we've seen some 11,000 raids over the past year by various types of Special Operations Forces in Afghanistan, nighttime raids where a small team drops in, going after what the command in Afghanistan calls a jackpot, a mid-level of even senior-level Taliban leader. NEAL CONAN, host: And some question, some people question whether this is - you know, obviously it could be effective, it's important to do, but it's also whether it's targeted killing. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Yeah, very much of an issue here. These are hunter-killer teams. They go in and, you know, they operate when they're in Afghanistan under military - the law of war. So they would - you know, military commanders say if somebody surrenders, they will - they'll take this person in capture. If they're going to resist, they will be eliminated. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, joining us now is Howard Wasdin, author of a new book called "SEAL Team Six." He was formerly a member of this elite unit and served as a sniper, and he's got a new book called "SEAL Team Six: Memoirs of an Elite Navy SEAL Sniper." And Howard Wasdin joins us now from his office in Jessup, Georgia. Nice to have you with us today. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): Hey, good to be here, guys. Thank you. First of all, I'd like to say that this is just timing. All the credit goes to my former teammates, and this book was written two years ago and in no way should take away from what they did, and all the attention and praise should be given to them because I haven't been active since 1995. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, I wanted to give you, though, the chance to tell us a little bit more about this unit in general. Obviously, if you haven't been active in some years, specifics may be - well, you probably know more than we do. But in any case, were you surprised to find out SEAL Team Six was designated for this operation? Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): No, it would have come down to one or two groups, in my mind, that would have done this type of op. I'm glad that it was my former unit, but yes, it doesn't surprise me that it was them. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): As far as telling you about the group, I'm not giving anything up by writing this book. It's not about, you know, anything secretive or giving up national secrets. And the first book about SEAL Team Six was written in the late '80s or early '90s. So this book is in particularly about overcoming adversity when I was trying to fit back into society after being in the team. NEAL CONAN, host: And that is a great deal of the book, though a lot of the book is also about the specialized training that you had to go through first to join the Navy SEALS. That's basic training called BUD/S. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): Right. Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL School is what that is, and that's been very well-documented, even better so in other books than mine. But I talk about my personal ordeals going through BUD/S and the training involved there, and rigorous training. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): The training, which I might add, is designed to separate out just the physically elite from the physically and mentally elite, which mental toughness is the whole premise for SEALS being trained, mentally tough. NEAL CONAN, host: Then you joined SEAL Team Two. That's sort of a graduation school? Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): No, SEAL Team Two, and there's no hierarchy in the teams, your team number is just where you're stationed. All SEALS in my mind are equally elite. It doesn't matter if you're SEAL Team Two, One, Six, 10, it doesn't matter. All SEALS are equally elite. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): What differentiates SEAL Team Six is the funding. I heard one - a couple of your guests when I was waiting to come on, and they seem - some people seem to think of this is, like you were saying, a hunter-killer team or whatever. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): And that may be true, but the thing is, everything is based on the judgmental use of deadly force. So these guys are trained not just to go out and kill, it sounds like it's indiscriminate, but to use that judgmental use of deadly force. NEAL CONAN, host: I don't think anybody said it was indiscriminate. It said it was targeted. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): Well, targeted is the word you can use, but it makes it sounds like there was no other option except to just go kill them. He determined whether he was killed or captured by his actions in that room. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, we'll have more about that later, and I appreciate your input on that. But the level of training - and correct us if we're wrong - but we understood that it was only after some time in other SEAL units that you were considered eligible to join SEAL Team Six. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): And that's true. You screen to go to SEAL Team Six. And like I said, any SEAL in any other unit, in my opinion, is equally special. SEAL Team Six just has better funding, better toys. You do screen to go there. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): In my case, this was back when there hadn't been a lot of combat in the world, and I was able to come out of Desert Storm and screen and get picked up the first time and go to SEAL Team Six right away. NEAL CONAN, host: And we have learned things from operations that did not go well. After the disaster at Desert One in 1980, in Iran, well, that led to the formation of Delta Force, as I understand it. What have we learned - you were involved in Somalia, in the disaster that came to be known as Blackhawk Down, by the name of that famous book. What do we think - what did we learn from that? Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): Well, hopefully what we learned from Somalia in particular, which by the way was my career ender. That was the raid that I got shot three times and eventually ended up getting out of the teams. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): What I hope - hopefully we learned from that was two things. And listen, I'm a die-hard Republican, but I'm giving the president all the credit here. He did exactly what needed to be done by not alerting Pakistan. So our operational security was good. So the guys didn't have somebody waiting on them, you know, the bad guys waiting on them when they got there, or - just totally gone. So the op sec, the president did a great job there. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): In Somalia we had terrible op sec, of course, because the United Nations was involved. You didn't know which one of these guys you could trust and which one you couldn't, and as it turns out, the guy who brought one of the downed Blackhawk pilots back actually had U.N. credentials when he brought him on the runway. So don't trust anybody outside your own little group when you're doing an op like this. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): And the other thing I'd want to say while I'm bragging(ph) on the president - I can't believe I would have ever done that with this president, but he's kind of changed my mind the past week or so - is him not releasing the pictures. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): I think he's doing a great job by not doing that because - why? Don't give our enemies anything to fire them up. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get one call quickly in with you. I know your time is limited. Justin's(ph) on the line with us from... Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): I've got about a minute and a half. NEAL CONAN, host: I understand that. Justin's on the line from Philadelphia. JUSTIN (Caller): Hi, thanks for taking my call. Just from my amateur standpoint, it seems that not just in terms of the youth of Special Ops groups but in terms of the character of the U.S. military as a whole, with the technologies that are coming out and the way that they're operating, there seems to be this paradigm shift away from big numbers of aircraft and guncraft and troops on the ground and stuff toward these surgical, targeted strikes by very elite personnel. NEAL CONAN, host: Justin, I'm going to stop you there because I wanted to give Howard Wasdin a chance to respond, and we'll talk more about that with Julian Barnes when we get back. But Harold Wasdin? Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): Yes, and that was well thought out and well-asked. Actually, John F. Kennedy, as a matter of fact, is the one that saw that conflicts of the future will be, quote-unquote, low-intensity surgical-strike-type conflicts, which is why he formed the SEAL teams in the first place. Mr. HOWARD WASDIN (Author): So yes, definitely the world we live in, the type of covert warfare, the battles that we're fighting now, are - I think you'll see more of that, and I think these guys did a great job. I just want to say God bless all the American troops. I've got to run. NEAL CONAN, host: Justin, thanks very much for the call. And Howard Wasdin, thank you very much for your time. NEAL CONAN, host: And there he goes. He joined us on the line from his home in Jessup, Georgia. More with Julian Barnes of the Wall Street Journal when we come back after a short break. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking about Special Forces, groups of elite U.S. troops who operate largely in secret. In recent years they've been sent more and more often onto battlefields and terrorist hotspots, by the Wall Street Journal's count more than 11,000 raids in the past year, which captured or killed some 10,000 insurgents in Afghanistan. NEAL CONAN, host: All of this is transforming the way military confronts its enemies. Our guest is Julian Barnes, who covers national security for the Wall Street Journal. If you have questions about the composition and use of U.S. Special Forces, give us a call. We'd especially like to hear from current or former members of the Special Forces, 800-989-8255. What do we need to understand about your jobs? Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Julian Barnes, I wanted to follow up with you on the question that was posed to Howard Wasdin just before we went to the break, and that's about the decision to replace conventional military units as we've gone from a world where the idea was massive numbers of Soviet tanks rolling across the north German plain to, well, fighting small-unit actions in Afghanistan. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): I think if we look at the sort of military thinking over the last decade or two decades, you can see these small elite units come in and out of fashion. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Of course, Rumsfeld came in at the beginning of the Bush administration arguing that the era of big militaries was over and putting the emphasis on Special Operations Forces. But the war in Iraq showed that you really do need a large military. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): We're coming back now, after a very large buildup in Afghanistan, where there are increasingly some skeptics in the Obama administration about the cost in lives and money of keeping large numbers of troops in Afghanistan. And hence the appeal of building up these small elite units. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Bob, Bob with us from Jacksonville. BOB (Caller): Hey, how are you doing today? NEAL CONAN, host: Very well, thanks. BOB (Caller): I was in Naval Special Warfare from 1975 to 1984. I was wounded in a combat situation and I got out. Back then I was in part of Operation Blue Shield, which was a failed operation during the Carter administration with the hostages. NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah? BOB (Caller): I don't know if you remember that. NEAL CONAN, host: I think we do, yeah. BOB (Caller): (Unintelligible). But anyway, when we came back off that operation, we were, you know, still pretty hyped, and we were sent out to do another operation. And we trained, you know, so hard for this one particular operation, and we were told that we were going to go overseas and we were going to be blowing up a dam. BOB (Caller): So we trained and trained and trained, and when we got there, as it turned out we were downriver and we had to blow up beaver dams to keep the water flowing so that we could support our operation. NEAL CONAN, host: You had to blow up beaver dams? BOB (Caller): Yeah, because the beavers were closing off the waterway. And so that's what we ended up doing, blowing up our dams, was - were beaver dams. NEAL CONAN, host: I... BOB (Caller): The point is we really never even - you know, a lot of times you don't even know, you know, what you're getting into or what, you know, or what the situation's going to be until you get there. NEAL CONAN, host: I guess sometimes it's important to have a hydrologist on the intelligence team. Well, thanks very much for the call, appreciate it. BOB (Caller): Thank you. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That goes to a real change in the culture of Special Operations Forces. We had, in previous generations, you could have people who just trained and trained and trained, and they might do one operation or even no operations throughout a career. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Now we have nearly constant deployment for these guys over the course of the Afghanistan war, where, you know, night after night they're doing operations, really quite, quite intense. NEAL CONAN, host: Yet we saw in this particular operation that dummy - a dummy of the specific compound was constructed, practices were held on it. There was a model of it in the White House Situation Room. That's a little unusual. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Yeah, I mean, what we think has happened, although details are a little sketchy, that when the CIA contacted JSOC, the Special Operations Command, about doing this mission, they looked to see what unit was not deployed. They found a squadron from SEAL Team Six and assigned them this mission. So they were able to spend weeks and indeed months training for the raid on the compound. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Jake(ph), and Jake's with us from Charlotte. JAKE (Caller): Yes, yes. I just wanted to say hats off to the group. My father was ex-military and participated in several of these units as I was a child growing up. JAKE (Caller): The - one thing I'd like to say is it's not just one mission that these guys participate in. It's a lifestyle. It's what they do. They train. They're always away from the house. They're on missions. And it's real patriotic to hear what these guys did. They're living legends, and hats off to them. So thank you very much. NEAL CONAN, host: Jake, before you leave... JAKE (Caller): Yes. NEAL CONAN, host: I just wanted to ask, this is obviously, it's - we're told that these elite units, the Delta Force and SEAL Team Six, are somewhat older than we might expect, not the young men who are in conventional forces for the most part. But isn't there a time, don't they have to leave these units fairly young? JAKE (Caller): Oh, well, I was young as a child and my father was always gone. So I guess the point I wanted to make is that, you know, these guys that went out and did the bin Laden thing, you know, they're getting the credit for doing the one mission, but there are missions all the time that go unnoticed and not heard or observed or given no credit. But, you know, it's something that they do on a daily basis, all the time. And it does, it's stress, it's stress for their own lives and personal lives. So that was the only point I wanted to make. NEAL CONAN, host: All right, Jake, thanks very much for the call, appreciate it. JAKE (Caller): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: And he does make the point that, yes, we hear about this operation, myriad operations in Afghanistan that are never reported on or only fleetingly, perhaps. And yet there could also be operations, plenty of them, where they went out, trained for weeks or maybe even months and never went out at all. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That's right. And I think you hear a lot from people about the sort of big operations that they train for that they don't ultimately get a nod, the president doesn't allow them to go into the country. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): You know, but I think if we, you know, just look at the pace of operations nowadays, you know, if a big planned operation doesn't go off, the next night there's something more. And we've - you know, much of these operations, the details don't ever come out. It's unlike the other missions by conventional forces. Usually they don't release a press release about the JSOC missions in Afghanistan or elsewhere. NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Ron(ph) in Washington, says: Aviation support is supplied by the Army 160th SOAR, Special Operations Aviation Regiment. Air Force Air Commandos offer different assets. NEAL CONAN, host: Team Six fires more ammunition per week than any other SOF unit, Special Operations Forces, and Delta is better suited to clandestine operations requiring stealth and undercover work. Is that right, so far as you know? Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Well, I know that a lot of the Air Force personnel who are part of Joint Special Operations Command are forward air controllers. They're guys on the ground who call in strikes from other aircraft. And they are the most elite of that - units. But there's also air - there are Air Force assets that fly in the, that fly in the SEALS or Delta as well. You know... NEAL CONAN, host: The Army flies helicopters as a rule, and the Air Force flies fixed wing. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Absolutely. NEAL CONAN, host: That's been a strong division for quite some time. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): There is. And it's a little murkier now, especially with search and rescue, but that is generally correct. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can go next to - this is Jim, Jim with us from Virginia Beach. JIM (Caller): Thanks for taking the call. NEAL CONAN, host: Sure. JIM (Caller): The SEAL - this isn't new to the SEAL team. The SEAL team has a giant building at their complex in Dam Neck, and it's a mega concrete building. And inside of it are movable steel panels that can - so this building inside can be set up in any kind of scenario, a hotel scenario, a shopping center scenario, whatever they want to do with it. JIM (Caller): It's a live fire. Also, on the roof, there's all kind of different hatches that would represent ship hatches and all the different type of entries. And so the SEAL team can practice not only for this one mission, the made-up compound that they had, but they practice these things all the time in real scenarios. NEAL CONAN, host: Dam Neck, just outside of Norfolk, Virginia. JIM (Caller): Dam Neck is in Virginia. It's in Virginia Beach, on the oceanfront. NEAL CONAN, host: And that's where you're calling from. Have you been inside this particular building? JIM (Caller): I have been inside that building, yes. NEAL CONAN, host: And what was it set up as when you saw it? JIM (Caller): I can't really tell you that, Neal. But I appreciate the - but it was set up as a multi-room facility. How about that? The important thing about this thing is that the SEALS have the access to this thing. They can be - these panels can be moved around in any configuration. So they can practice on all these scenarios in real time with live ammunition. And when you get out in the field, that's definitely important. NEAL CONAN, host: All right, Jim, thanks for the call. We appreciate your discretion as well. JIM (Caller): Sure, bye-bye. NEAL CONAN, host: Appreciate that. We're talking with Julian Barnes, a Journal reporter, Wall Street Journal reporter, who covers the military and national security. And he's with us here in Studio 3A. We're talking about the increasing use of Special Forces units. And as this continues, and we saw, as you mentioned, Donald Rumsfeld and the previous administration argued strenuously that the kind of success that was brought about initially in Afghanistan, that brought about the downfall of the Taliban government that was, well, working in collaboration with people who were there, the Northern Alliance. It was working with the Central Intelligence Agency and a lot of use of Special Forces. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That's right. The initial part of the Afghanistan war was almost purely Special Forces, Special Operations Forces and some CIA paramilitary teams that are similar. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): And I think in Afghanistan, we're going to be eventually moving toward that again. The end of the Afghanistan war for the U.S. is going to look a lot like the beginning, where U.S. power is exercised through these small teams. But the view in the military is you need a larger footprint there, right now, in order to stabilize it. NEAL CONAN, host: To stabilize the population and resist the Taliban. This is, as we listen to this argument that's going to be developing over the next few weeks and the decision we're expecting in July, as to what the size of the initial drawdown will be. NEAL CONAN, host: As you hear people talking about counterinsurgency; those who are saying we need large numbers of forces, probably about as many as we have now, to occupy a lot of areas to give the Afghan army more time to train, the police more time to get up and up to speed; while those who talk about counterterrorism say we can afford to do more of these targeted operations, operate against al-Qaida, in particular, in that fashion, and maintain forces of, well, commandos, like SEAL Team Six, and air assets that can bring down, if you can get forward air controllers in, can bring down targeted air strikes. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): That's right. Counterinsurgency is about protecting a population. These small elite commando units, they can't protect a town from intimidation by a group of Taliban. They can disrupt the Taliban. They can swoop up and kill a leader, and that can cause problems with command and control, but they're not able to protect a swath of the country. That requires larger amounts of troops. NEAL CONAN, host: Some might say it's the difference between a raid and a campaign. Yet in Afghanistan, we've seen a campaign of raids, as you've described it, where time after time, night after night, sometimes several times a night, these teams go out and target midlevel and senior Taliban commanders. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): And what senior military officials will tell you is, right now in Afghanistan, these two strategies are very much interlinked. You can't separate the counterterrorism from the counterinsurgency. They're both aiding each other. NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking again with Julian Barnes of The Wall Street Journal. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Ken, and Ken is with us Oshkosh. KEN (Caller): Hello. NEAL CONAN, host: Hi. You're on the air, Ken. Go ahead, please. KEN (Caller): Yeah. In 2004, I suggested, on a website, that we do two things. Mainly, one; train 10 percent of all standard forces, cross-train them as you would A-teams. And secondly; reinstitute the use of dogs with these units, because you have the ability for that animal to actually know all the members of the units, just like an electronic grid that allows you security. And we would be able to give operational capability to, even, standard units. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, do we know, Julian Barnes, what percentage of the U.S. military would be described as Special Forces if you include... Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Well... NEAL CONAN, host: ...units like the Rangers, which are pretty big units? Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Yeah. The Rangers, as you said, are bigger units. Still, it's a small slice. These units are pretty small. SEAL Team Six, probably around 300 people, although we don't know. And the larger special operations community, they keep those numbers closely held. But compared to the thousands of Army soldiers and Marines, it's a small number. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): But the caller makes a good point that, you know, a lot of the equipment, a lot of the tactics, a lot of the know-how of the Special Forces has filtered down to the conventional forces. The conventional Army and Marines are battle hardened after 10 years of fighting. NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email we have from Eric in North Carolina, which may or may not be near Fort Bragg. For clarification, there's a distinct difference between Special Forces and Special Operations Forces. Special Operations Forces, SOF, is an umbrella term that comprises all the units that fall under U.S. Special Operations Command and JSOC. SOF includes Army Rangers, Special Forces, 160th SOAR, Navy SEAL teams, Air Force Combat Controllers and the JSOC Special Mission Units, those are - we're talking about Delta and SEAL Team Six. Each unit has a distinctly different mission and specializes in conducting operations in different environments. Special Forces are only part of the U.S. Army or commonly known as the Green Berets. They specialize in unconventional warfare. So that - thank you, Eric, for that. NEAL CONAN, host: And let's see - we go to - this is Warren. Warren with us from Grand Rapids. WARREN (Caller): Yeah. Hi. I have a question regarding - we captured like the number two or three guy, Sheikh Mohammed or whatever his name was, and water-boarded them and everything at Gitmo and... NEAL CONAN, host: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, yes. WARREN (Caller): Yeah. And whatever. And we didn't get any information good from that, but later due to other techniques, we got something that led to some information that was useful. WARREN (Caller): But the point is, as any private knows, that's in Afghanistan or Iraq, that you - when you're breaking into places you want to find information, and the most important information is people. And so you try to capture the people and interrogate them and so on. And they didn't do that. WARREN (Caller): With, apparently, we get these floating stories that keep shifting. There was a horrible firefight, and there was no firefight. And he had a gun, and he did had a gun nearby. And the place, they shot a woman, killed a woman, wounded a woman, shot him twice in the head. He wasn't armed. He has a - the head of the information things. We're torturing his number two guys. We can't get the number one guy to come along. WARREN (Caller): I mean, it just seems like they wanted to do what they did to pineapple face down in Panama who threatened to show and blow the lid off everything. And now, nobody is allowed to talk to him, and he - I think Obama - Osama knew too much. NEAL CONAN, host: I think you're talking about President Noriega of Panama, but in any case, we're going to be talking about more about this in a moment on another level. But, yeah, that's - you would think that the primary mission would have been to capture and use Mr. bin Laden as an intelligence asset. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Well, unfortunately, capturing people right now is very fraught for the U.S. There's not a really good solution of where to put them. The Obama administration has generally not captured people. They've instead let allied countries capture them. Hence, this may have been the plan for the survivors of the raid to be picked up by the Pakistanis and try to get access through the Pakistanis. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): You know, other than Bagram, the detention facility at Parwan, there's not a place where the U.S. really wants to put people. The Obama administration does not want to put more prisoners in Guantanamo. NEAL CONAN, host: And so far as we know, has not. NEAL CONAN, host: Julian Barnes, thank you very much for your time today. Mr. JULIAN BARNES (Wall Street Journal): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: Wall Street Journal reporter Julian Barnes joined us here in Studio 3-A. More on this on The Opinion Page in just a minute. Glenn Greenwald will argue that we need to ask more questions about the ethics and legality of the bin Laden mission. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

The team that killed Osama bin Laden is part of an elite group of U.S. Special Forces that plays a growing role in military operations worldwide. Navy SEALs, Delta Force and other units are considered by many to be the best of the best. And the Obama administration has been building up their ranks. Howard Wasdin, author of SEAL Team Six Julian Barnes, reporter, Wall Street Journal

Das Team, das Osama bin Laden tötete, gehört zu einer Elitegruppe von US-Spezialeinheiten, die bei Militäroperationen weltweit eine wachsende Rolle spielt. Navy SEALs, Delta Force und andere Einheiten werden von vielen als die Besten der Besten angesehen. Und die Obama-Administration hat ihre Reihen aufgebaut. Howard Wasdin, Autor von SEAL Team Sechste \Julian Barnes, Reporter, Wall Street Journal

击毙奥萨马·本·拉登的小组是美国特种部队的其中一支精英小队，该小队已在全球军事行动中发挥着越来越大的作用。很多人都认为海豹突击队、三角洲部队等部队是精英中的精英，而奥巴马政府也一直在壮大自己的队伍。霍华德·华斯丁，《海豹突击队六队》的作者。朱利安·巴恩斯，《华尔街日报》记者

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. NEAL CONAN, host: A lot of us plan to continue working past retirement age for any number of reasons. For one, we'll need the money. Nearly one in five American workers tapped into their retirement accounts in just this past year, and many now worry they will outlive what savings are left. NEAL CONAN, host: There's also greater opportunity. We're living longer in better health. And some choose what author Marc Freedman calls an encore career. If you're going to work into your 60s and 70s, he argues, you should do something meaningful, something with purpose. NEAL CONAN, host: Have your retirement plans changed? What do you propose to do with what could easily be 20 good years after retirement age? Our phone number, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Later in the program, a spokesman with the Army Corps of Engineers, as the Mississippi nears an historic crest in Memphis, how we might want to think about flood control in the future. NEAL CONAN, host: But first, we're going to talk about retirement with purpose. Let's begin with a phone call. On the line with us from Hickory, North Carolina, is Claudia(ph). Nice to have you with us. CLAUDIA (Caller): Hey, Mr. Conan, God bless you. You have a tough job. NEAL CONAN, host: Thank you very much. I suspect you do too. CLAUDIA (Caller): Well, I'm looking at my second job, which is the reason for the call. I have been a registered nurse for 37 years. I hold a baccalaureate degree and two Master's degrees behind that R.N., or in front of it, whichever way it goes. CLAUDIA (Caller): And I left nursing because I - even - I taught nursing for quite a while, for 12 years, in fact. And my motto with my students was always: You must treat your patients like you want to be treated. CLAUDIA (Caller): And it seems like now, the more experience and degrees an RN gets, the further away from the patient she gets in the modern health care system. And who knows what's going to happen? CLAUDIA (Caller): So I have just, as of last night at midnight, when I pushed the send button, completed a Master's in clinical counseling, where I hope to take my hospice work and my love for animals. And I, again, want to do something to improve what's going on in the world, but the money's not really out there for a pet therapy nurse doing end-of-life care and working with returning combat veterans. CLAUDIA (Caller): You know, it's just things I believe in, and I hope I can make a difference. NEAL CONAN, host: Hope you can make a difference. As you say, as you got further and further away from actually dealing with patients, you want to make a difference in people's lives. That's the reason a lot of people go into nursing in the first place. CLAUDIA (Caller): Yes, sir. And that's a whole 'nother hour where you and I could talk. CLAUDIA (Caller): Believe me. I just feel like the more - well, I think a lot of nurses in the future are going to be like nurse practitioners and things like that and they will need advanced degrees to do that, and that may be a huge answer. CLAUDIA (Caller): Miss Clinton introduced that way back in the day, when she had certainly a very good opinion on the healthcare system, was using, you know, the more educated nurses. And that's fine. But I think a lot of that, you kind of lose the further out into the rural community you go. CLAUDIA (Caller): You know, nurse practitioners are actually taking the place of doctors in a lot of places. But to answer your question, I hope to have a new career now. I want to work with veterans and repay them for the huge debt I feel like we as a country owe them. And I hope I am going to be able to do that with my hospice nurse. CLAUDIA (Caller): I am a Christian counselor as well. And I think I've taken up too much of your time. I appreciate your time. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, Claudia, thanks very much. We appreciate it. Good luck. CLAUDIA (Caller): If you need a good nurse, I can recommend one. NEAL CONAN, host: Thanks very much. NEAL CONAN, host: Claudia with us from Hickory, North Carolina. Mac Freedman joins us now from KQED, our member station in San Francisco. He's got a book out called "The Big Shift: Navigating the New Stage Beyond Midlife," and nice to have you with us. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Thanks, Neal, it's a pleasure. NEAL CONAN, host: And Claudia, it seems to me, is part of what you're talking about. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Yeah, she's part of this new hybrid between midlife and anything resembling old age or traditional retirement, people moving into an encore phase of life and also an encore career at the intersection of continued income, new meaning, and the desire to use their experience in a way that has a social impact. NEAL CONAN, host: And this could define you too. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Well, I'm now in the second half of life myself, but I have three young kids, and I feel like I'm becoming an oxymoron. You know, we hear a lot about the young old, the working retired. So many of us are becoming neither-nors, where we're not in our previous stage, and yet we're far off from anything resembling being doddering. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, what did you do before you decided to pick an encore? Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Well, I actually spent the early part of my career working on kids issues and particularly trying to find new strategies to help low-income young people navigate their way to a better life. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): And I got interested in mentoring and was involved in research that showed that mentoring programs for young people have a big impact. But it raised the question of where are we going to find the human beings to do those things that only people can do, which is one of the reasons I started Civic Ventures, in an effort to tap this undiscovered continent of talent in people in their 60s, 70s and beyond. NEAL CONAN, host: And a supercontinent as the baby boomers retire. So Civic Ventures is a think-tank that's focused on boomers' work and social purpose. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get another caller on the line, and let's go to Carolyn(ph), Carolyn with us from Tucson. CAROLYN (Caller): Hi there. NEAL CONAN, host: Hi, Carolyn. CAROLYN (Caller): Yes. I am a - just turned 62. I'm a semi-retired CPA. And I've recently become pretty much a full-time professional racecar driver. NEAL CONAN, host: My goodness. How did you decide to do that? CAROLYN (Caller): Well, I've been involved in road racing for all of my adult life, and last year I had an opportunity to buy a couple of World Challenge Jettas. And so I said: I'm not getting any younger. I'm going to do it. NEAL CONAN, host: And are you - how are you doing? CAROLYN (Caller): I'm doing fairly well. I have a teammate who is making podium finishes, which is a very good thing. And I'm getting better as a driver and having a lot of fun doing it. NEAL CONAN, host: And I expect you keep the books for the outfit too? CAROLYN (Caller): Yes, I certainly do. NEAL CONAN, host: Combining both careers, Carolyn, thanks very much for the call. CAROLYN (Caller): Thank you. NEAL CONAN, host: And racecar driving may not have been one of the fields, Marc Freedman, that you were emphasizing a great deal. But nevertheless, there's social purpose to that too. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Absolutely, and one of the social purposes is just attacking conventional wisdom about what this period in life is supposed to be about. You know, you're supposed to be descending the hill at this point. Well, a lot of people are actually prepared to do some of their most exciting and important work, the work that they'll be remembered for. NEAL CONAN, host: Joining us now from our bureau in New York is Steven Greenhouse, labor and workplace correspondent for The New York Times, and nice to have you back with us on TALK OF THE NATION. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Nice to be here, Neal. NEAL CONAN, host: And has there been a significant shift over the past few years in people planning to retire later or to adopt what Marc Freedman describes as encore careers? Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Yes, Neal, there has been a significant shift, you know, partly because the stock market fell so much a few years ago. A lot of people saw their 401(k)s - you know, you've heard it, become 101(k)s, you know, go down the toilet, and they were very worried that they did no longer have enough money to retire on. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): So many people in their 60s, who thought they might retire at 65 or 67, said: Whoops, I might have to work till 70, 72, 75. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): I think when Marc says encore careers - careers with real social value, you know, after one's regular retirement, are a great idea. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people near retirement age who are just fairly - I hate to say it, fairly desperate economically. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And they want - they see that they need to work, and they'll take any job they can that's out there. Ideally, it would be a socially remunerative, you know, an encore job where they were, you know, teaching kids, doing child care, working as nurses, working in hospice. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): But a lot of them are taking jobs in Wal-Marts or McDonald's. They just need money, you know, to get buy. I did a recent story... NEAL CONAN, host: Well, supporting themselves and their families is - well, that's idealistic too. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Yeah, that's true. I did a recent story where one number really jumped out at me, Neal, that, you know, half of people who are retired - half of people half of the nation's retirees receive at least 90 percent of their income from Social Security. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And you know, the typical Social Security benefits are just $14,000 a year. People have no idea that that's the typical amount received by Social Security recipients. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And of course, all these people in Washington are now talking about the importance of, what, cutting back Social Security, right? So I think a lot of people are feeling more and more pressure to work later because they realize they're not going to be getting enough from Social Security, their house - the value of their houses are declining, their 401(k)s have, you know, dropped over the years. So you know, as Marc said, a lot of people are feeling forced, compelled, squeezed to work later. NEAL CONAN, host: And Marc Freedman, when you talk about retiring with a purpose, I'm sure you're including everybody, not just people who can afford to retire to something that amounts to volunteer work. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Right, absolutely. You know, and as the earlier caller, who shifted from nursing into her encore career, suggests, this is not an easy transition for people. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): There was actually an article in Time magazine a couple months ago about the doubling of people who moved from earlier careers to divinity school. It was called "Holy Enrollers," which I thought was definitely the title of the year. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): But it told the story of a woman who'd been a nurse and became an Episcopal priest. It cost her $100,000. She had to sell her house and her car. So here's somebody who's moving proactively into this stage. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): And for so many people it's a do-it-yourself transition, and it's a costly one. It's one that takes a certain amount of time, and that's all the more difficult if you've been forced into this big shift in your life. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): So I agree with Steven Greenhouse. We really need to think about this period as a time not just to compel people to work longer but to invest in them so that they can move into work that is going to balance the books at home and also feed their desire for meaning in this stage of life. NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Linda in Albany, California: My mother and father are both in their early 70s, retired from their real jobs more than 10 years ago. My mother took money she earned from stocks from her former company and founded a small bookstore with two friends, the first bookstore our small Nebraska town ever had. NEAL CONAN, host: It was a community center with a cafe, lectures, author signings and special events, as well as books for all. They closed it just yesterday after deciding they needed more time to enjoy retirement. NEAL CONAN, host: My dad founded a community center that gathers all the social services under one roof with a computer for the community - employment office, Head Start program and English and Spanish GED courses, immigration lawyer, rooms for the supervised visitation of children of divorce, housing office, battered women's center, et cetera, et cetera. He raised the money through grants to purchase the property and rallied everyone around the project, which he still supervises. I doubt my parents will ever retire. Thank goodness. NEAL CONAN, host: Linda, thank you very much for that email. We're talking about new ways to think about retirement. Have your plans changed? What do you propose to do with what could be 20 good years after retirement age? 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. Im Neal Conan in Washington. NEAL CONAN, host: The percentage of workers who say they are not at all confident about having enough money for comfortable retirement is at an all-time high. The survey by the Employee Benefit Research Institute shows a five percent jump, over last year, to 27 percent of workers. NEAL CONAN, host: For a growing number of us, retirement will not mean the end of work. Have your retirement plans changed? What do you propose to do with what could be 20 good years after retirement age? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email, talk@npr.org. And you can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. NEAL CONAN, host: Our guests are Marc Freedman - excuse me. Marc Freedman, who is the founder of Civic Ventures, a think-tank focused on boomers' work and social purpose; and Steven Greenhouse, labor and workplace correspondent for the New York Times, someone we often turn to on these issues. And Steven Greenhouse, I wanted to ask: You've mentioned - we've seen a trend of people in their 60s and 70s competing for jobs against, well, what used to be thought for entry-level jobs, at places like McDonald's. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Yes, Neal. I went down to Fort Lauderdale a few months ago to do a story about older people who maybe should have retired already, you know, if they had enough saved up, but they're staying in the workforce somewhat reluctantly, and they are often applying for the same jobs as their grandchildren, as 20-year-olds. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And one economist I interviewed said that 70 has become the new 20, that the 70-year-olds are applying to be supermarket cashiers or to be receptionists in doctors' offices. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And in places like Florida, we're really seeing a huge, you know, clash between, you know, these generations. You know, a lot of 20-year-olds without college education are - you know, who aren't going to become engineers are competing with maybe retired engineers who are looking for a little extra money to get by. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And, you know, they're taking - you know, they're being forced to take these, you know, whatever jobs are available, which are often, you know, supermarket jobs, restaurant jobs. NEAL CONAN, host: And what we used to think of as summer jobs. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Yes, yes, yes. And then it's really - the pressures have really increased, Neal, since the recession began, you know, three, four years ago. Now, you know, nearly 6.7 million Americans age 65 and over are holding jobs, and that's up about 20 percent from when the recession began a few years ago. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And, you know, another statistic that surprises me is that 18 percent of people age 65 or above are either, you know, holding jobs or looking for jobs. So nearly one in five people over age 65, you know, is still in the labor force. And that's way up over the past decade. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get another caller on the line. Let's go to Judy(ph), Judy with us from New Orleans. JUDY (Caller): Hello, thank you for taking my call. NEAL CONAN, host: Sure. JUDY (Caller): First of all, I wanted to just give you some information, if anybody's interested in really exploring the idea of aging and what is impacting. JUDY (Caller): There's a great book by Ted Fishman, who wrote "China, Inc.," called "Shock of Gray: The Aging of the World's Population and How it Pits Young Against Old, Child Against Parent, Worker Against Boss, Company Against Rival, and Nation Against Nation." JUDY (Caller): And not only just the book, but I am also a participant in this aging demographic. I had a farm near New Orleans for 17, 18 years. I was depending on that as a retirement, both the property and just the income. Katrina destroyed that. JUDY (Caller): And then I embarked on another career in retail, in the consignment industry, the green business, recycling, and then in August of '08, and you know what happened in 2008, in September, and I wasn't able to get any kind of small business help or assistance in banking or anything. JUDY (Caller): And I tried to deal with that for two years, had to start dipping into my IRA. And finally, before I lost all of it, I went back to school. And now I'm trying to seek a job in the private services industry, which is house management, personal assistant work and that kind of thing. JUDY (Caller): And - but I also wanted to mention, in the demographics of the aging population is, it affects women far more than men in that the generations that are now aging in the 60s and 70s where most women were homemakers, and they worked - they were in and out of the job market and the labor force, and they didn't get the pension or the Social Security or the sustained pension opportunities that men who held full-time jobs, long-term jobs, had. JUDY (Caller): And as we know that men generally die before women do, and so we have a whole generation of women that were homemakers, and I think the whole social network has to be re-evaluated and reinvented in order to find, you know, ways to participate in this new society. JUDY (Caller): And the gentleman that just spoke about Florida, in the book, it notes that Sarasota in Florida has more not-for-profit service organizations per capita than any American city its size, and every year, a new spate of well-heeled, well-to-do residents move there, newly disconnected from their business and social life, and they have to reinvent themselves. JUDY (Caller): So Florida, I think, is probably at the forefront in trying to absorb and give productive lives to people that keep coming down there. So -and this is not just a United States problem. This is a global aging... NEAL CONAN, host: We hear you on that, Judy, but we wanted to focus on the United States just for the purposes of this program. But Marc Freedman, people - as she describes that - moving to a place where they're disconnected and looking to, well, maybe give back to community, how do they do that without help? Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Well, that's the problem is there's so little help out there that it is a do-it-yourself process. People are having to navigate through unfamiliar territory, from what's last to what's next. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): And it can often seem, as Steven Greenhouse pointed out, as Judy pointed out with the subtitle of the "Shock of Gray" book that it's a zero-sum game, that every person in this current economy who finds their way is going to be displacing somebody in another age group. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): And I'm glad Judy raised the point about the women's movement, because it is a parallel, in many ways, to the new roles women forged in the '60s and '70s. At that point, too, it seemed like a zero-sum game. Every woman who found their way into a professional role was going to displace a man, and we'd end up in the same place, ultimately, with a lot of pain and suffering along the way. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Now when we look back, we realize we couldn't compete globally without this segment of the population contributing. And I think that that's where we're headed over the long term, even though in the current situation it can seem like it's something that is a net loss. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): But I think what we're talking about really is a society that uses the abundance of its talents, and that's going to change the entire shape of lives. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get another caller in, and let's go next to -this is Tom(ph), Tom with us from Lake County in California. TOM (Caller): Hello. NEAL CONAN, host: Hi, Tom. TOM (Caller): Well, thank you for having me on the show. It's - I was thinking of a retired admiral who went to work for Wal-Mart as a greeter because he wanted something to do. TOM (Caller): Forty-seven years ago, I retired from the postal service on a disability and started receiving my disability a year later, as well as a VA disability. Now, money-wise, that would have been great 15 years ago, but it doesn't do well in this economy. And I'm certainly not able to work. TOM (Caller): So I volunteer my time. I help coordinate court services for the North Base Stand Down, north of the San Francisco Bay, and I'm involved in that all year long, and I work as I can. But there are a lot of veterans like me who are living on disability that can't work or can't find work. And it's a rough economy. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, that - and Tom, nobody's disputing that it's a tough economy, and we need to find novel approaches. And Marc Freedman, I want to ask you about another one of your projects, the Purpose Prize, granting about - up to $100,000 to people over 60 in, as you describe it, encore careers who come up with novel ways to solve social problems. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Well, Neal, you know, we think that creativity and entrepreneurship, innovation, are the exclusive province of young people. But it turns out that there's a growing group of people who are in their 50s, 60s, beyond, who are applying their midlife experience to solve major problems in society. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): One example is a guy out here in San Francisco, Gary Maxworthy(ph), who wanted to go in the Peace Corps when he was young, couldn't afford to do it, spent 35 years in the food distribution business. His wife passed away in his late 50s, re-evaluated his priorities and went to work in the Vista Program, the food bank in San Francisco, where he discovered that food banks were just giving out canned food and that he knew growers throughout the state were wasting an enormous amount of produce that was seen as blemished. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): He created the Farm to Family Program, which last year distributed 100 million pounds of fresh food to food banks throughout the state of California. I think it encapsulates the way that many people are bringing their experience and problem-solving capacities together to fuel innovation. NEAL CONAN, host: Marc Freedman mentioned entrepreneurship. Steven Greenhouse, one of the trends you've reported on, too, is older people starting new businesses. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Yes, a lot of older people are starting new businesses. A lot of people retire from jobs where they, you know, knew accounting, they knew how to run a business, they knew marketing, and they thought: Well, why don't I start my own business? Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): And a lot of people, as you've discussed many times on your show, a lot of unemployed have been out of work for 20, 30, 40 weeks, and they say: You know, shucks, no one's going to hire me. I might as well go out and try to start a business on my own. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): And I've written about, you know, people who go into computer consulting business who, like the one caller's parents, Linda's parents, you know, who started a book shop, who started, you know, a community center. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): You know, a lot of retirees have an amazing amount of skills. And, you know, some want to find regular jobs. Some want to set up their own businesses. They want to be their own bosses, perhaps, for the first time in their life. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): And I was impressed by what Tom said. You know, sometimes it's very hard to find a job nowadays, and it's good to volunteer. It's often more fulfilling to go out and volunteer and do good work in the community than to just sit around watching TV. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Bob, and Bob is on the line with us from Cleveland. BOB (Caller): Hello. NEAL CONAN, host: Hi, Bob. You're on the air. BOB (Caller): Hi. You know, I retired a couple of years ago from that encore job, you know, where you help people and help yourself and help the world and so forth. And now it's really strange for me because although we took our retirement funds and put them into buying and rehabbing houses, we kind of lost that personal responsibility sort of feeling, you know, where every day, somebody's well-being depended upon us, my wife and I. My wife is a nurse. I'm a perfusionist. And now I really feel lost. NEAL CONAN, host: You feel lost. BOB (Caller): Yes. I really do, like, oh, I don't know. You know, just before I retired, I mean I was training the next wave of perfusionists. I was dealing with patients every day. You know, very much people had their lives in my hands. Now... NEAL CONAN, host: You sound, Bob - I wanted to bring Marc Freedman in here. He sounds like one of these people who's, in fact, looking for purpose. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Yeah, we hear a lot about the purpose-driven life, but I feel that so many people at Bob's juncture are looking for the purpose-driven job partly to make ends meet, but just as much to have that sense of passing on their experience. And I think it's developmental. You know, when you reach the period in life where there are fewer years ahead than are behind, it changes your priorities. You think about whether you're living your legacy. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Erik Erikson, the great psychologist of adulthood, said that the hallmark of successful development of well-being in this stage could be encapsulated in the phrase I am what survives of me. And I think for so many decades, we've sent people at this point in life ought to have a second childhood in age-segregated playgrounds when so many people want exactly what Bob was describing. NEAL CONAN, host: Bob, any ideas on what you might want to do? BOB (Caller): Well, what we're doing with our houses is renting them to folks who may not otherwise be able to afford them. I'm speaking of the low-price range and working with the government agencies and so forth so that maybe we can help out folks that way a little bit. And I'm starting to do some writing, which I've always wanted to do. I think I'll keep it in the technical area so maybe I can pass along some of what I learned. NEAL CONAN, host: Sounds like you're getting some things done. It sounds like you're pretty busy. BOB (Caller): Yeah. Yeah, I guess. The returns aren't what they should be. I'm kind of self-unemployed right now. BOB (Caller): But... NEAL CONAN, host: There's a lot of people in that category, Bob. You don't have to be over 65 for that. NEAL CONAN, host: Good luck to you. Thanks very much for the call. BOB (Caller): Thank you, Neal. NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking about what to do for an encore career. Our guests, Marc Freedman, who is the founder of Civic Ventures, a think tank focused on boomers' work and social purpose, and Steven Greenhouse, the labor and workplace correspondent for The New York Times. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. NEAL CONAN, host: And here's an email from RJ(ph) in Flagstaff: As a 26-year-old, I think it's kind of sad that what I was always sold as the idea that you'd be taken care of in old age seems to be rapidly evaporating. My wife and I plan to buy a house and pay it off in 15 years. Then anything we make will be solely for our own enjoyment. We refuse to work until we drop. NEAL CONAN, host: And, Steven Greenhouse, I think a lot of people might sympathize with RJ, including those who, well, there's an awful lot of professions, you think of coal mining, where you really can't continue after 65. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Yes. You know, RJ, I wish you well. It would be great if you and your wife, you know, have good steady jobs for the next 15, 20 years and you could buy a nice house and pay off your mortgage in 15 years, and then save up for retirement and then retire at age 55 or 60. Unfortunately, a lot of people, you know, are not so lucky. They think they're going to have a nice steady career and they get laid off in midstream. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): You know, I wrote the story the other day where I quote, you know, McKinsey, the great consulting firm. And they say that the typical American family faces a 37 percent shortfall in their income for retirement, a shortfall, McKinsey estimates, of about $250,000 a year. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): And one thing I think many of us have been seeing is that my generation, the baby boom generation, we're going to have a tougher life in retirement than my parents' generation. My parents had good steady pensions. Those are being replaced by 401(k)s, which are not as good. And my children's generation, you know, people in the 20s and 30s, are going to have it harder than my generation because very few of them have pensions. You know, wages have really been stuck for a lot of people. The unemployment rate for young people is very, very high, and that might make it harder for them to get good jobs eventually. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): So, you know, I do wish you well, you know, get a good career, get a good job. You know, hopefully you can stay in a good job for 20, 30 years, pay off your mortgage and have a good retirement. But unfortunately, that's not often the case for millions and millions of Americans. NEAL CONAN, host: Let's give Jan(ph) the last word, Jan with us from Kansas City. JAN (Caller): Hi. I really appreciate this topic that you have today. I thought I was the only one. I love your word hybrid. I've been searching for a word to try to describe the situation that I'm in. I'm 68 and I don't have the least interest in retiring. I consider this to be the best time of my life. When I was a special ed school teacher, I happen to just find myself with a home-based business and realized that I was making more money with that than I was teaching school. JAN (Caller): So at 64, I quit teaching rather than wait until I retired. And now I have a full-time business, my home-based business. It's in the health care industry. So I decided to start living a healthier lifestyle and became a triathlete at 64. And now I've done several triathletes - I come in last, but I don't have any competition. NEAL CONAN, host: There's no last in a triathlon. JAN (Caller): I go home with the first place ribbon because in both of the age groups that I've been in I haven't had any competition. But I'm just having a wonderful time. And I think part of my enthusiasm is starting a new business at 59. JAN (Caller): I'm in a growth phase of my life. Rather than anything winding down, everything is growing. And I'm so enjoying mentoring the new people that come in to business with me. It's just very exciting and just full of joy and happiness. I just can't think of a better place to be. NEAL CONAN, host: Well, Jan, congratulations and good luck with your business. You, at least, picked a growth sector of the economy. We appreciate the phone call. Marc Freedman, thank you very much for your time today. Mr. MARC FREEDMAN (Author): Thank you, Neal. NEAL CONAN, host: Steven Greenhouse, we'll talk with you soon. Mr. STEVEN GREENHOUSE (The New York Times): Nice to be here. NEAL CONAN, host: Coming up, the Mississippi is said to crest at historic levels. We'll talk with the Army Corps of Engineers spokesman in Memphis. Stay with us. This is NPR News.

As baby boomers begin to turn 65, many expect to keep working well past retirement age. Nearly one in five working Americans tapped into retirement accounts in the past year, and some now worry they will outlive their savings. Others may not need to work, but choose a so-called "encore" career. Marc Freedman, author, The Big Shift Steven Greenhouse, labor and workplace correspondent, The New York Times

Wenn die Babyboomer beginnen, 65 Jahre alt zu werden, erwarten viele, dass sie über das Rentenalter hinaus weiterhin arbeiten werden. Fast jeder fünfte erwerbstätige Amerikaner hat im vergangenen Jahr ein Rentenkonto zur Anwendung gebracht, und einige befürchten jetzt, dass sie ihre Ersparnisse überleben werden. Andere konnten möglicherweise nicht brauchen, zu arbeiten, sondern wählen eine sogenannte \"Zugabe\"-Karriere. Marc Freedman, Autor, The Big Shift; Steven Greenhouse, Arbeits- und Arbeitsplatzkorrespondent, The New York Times

随着婴儿潮一代开始步入65岁，许多人期望在过了退休年龄后仍能保持良好的工作状态。近五分之一的美国工薪阶层在过去一年中动用了退休账户，一些人现在担心他们会很长寿，储蓄不够花费。其他一部分人可能不需要工作，而是选择一个所谓“返场”职业。《大转折》作家马克·弗里德曼、《纽约时报》记者史蒂芬·格林豪斯，主要负责劳工新闻版块。

LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: We're going to start the program with news about the assassination of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. According to several news outlets, the CIA has concluded that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered Khashoggi's killing. That's according to unnamed sources. The CIA declined to comment to NPR, and Saudi officials have denied that the crown prince had anything to do with Khashoggi's death. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: To understand what these latest revelations could mean for U.S. relations with Saudi Arabia, we've called up Congressman Eric Swalwell. He's a Democrat representing California's 15th Congressional District. He's a member of the House Intelligence Committee and the ranking Democrat on the CIA subcommittee, and he joins me now by phone. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: Welcome, Congressman. ERIC SWALWELL: Thank you for having me on. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: Well, Congressman Swalwell, all of this reporting is according to unnamed officials. Since you sit on the House Intelligence Committee, I have to ask - have you been briefed by the CIA on this latest development? ERIC SWALWELL: I've been briefed on the Khashoggi incident. I can't say much more. I'm awaiting an update when Congress returns after the Thanksgiving holiday. But, you know, I'll say this - you don't have to have an intelligence background to know that the way that the Saudi kingdom works is that nothing happens without, you know, approval from the crown prince or the king. And, the way that this assassination was conducted, it very much seems like there was involvement. ERIC SWALWELL: And I think what the Trump administration should do because this is a U.S. resident working for a U.S. publication killed on a NATO ally's soil, you know, we need to be straight with the Saudis about, you know, them coming clean and making sure that they understand that there's going to be serious consequences if this was ordered from the very top. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: Well, in fact, a couple of days ago, the Trump administration leveled sanctions against 17 Saudi officials. What other levers of power does Congress have to respond to Khashoggi's death? ERIC SWALWELL: Well, I think what we should do is immediately suspend any arms sales to the Saudis until an objective, independent investigation is conducted. I also, you know, believe that we need to see reforms within the kingdom to make sure that something like this - it does not happen again. And, you know, what concerns me is that I think the president in the way that he talks about the press and the way that just some of the actions he's taken himself - we've seen leaders across the world emboldened to take acts like this. In the president's first two years, you've seen extrajudicial killings by the North Koreans, by the Russians in Great Britain and now by the Saudis in Turkey. And I think the absence of American leadership allows this to persist. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: The Trump administration has advocated that a strong relationship with the Saudis is, in fact, beneficial to the United States, to this country. Just this morning, following this news, President Trump spoke before boarding Marine One. Here's what he said. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You know, we also have a great ally in Saudi Arabia. They give us a lot of jobs. They give us a lot of business, a lot of economic development. They are - they have been a truly spectacular ally in terms of jobs and economic development. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: So, objectively speaking, he's not wrong. ERIC SWALWELL: Well, they certainly have invested in, you know, arms purchases that support U.S. jobs. But I don't think we look the other way and are bought off, you know, when a country commits human rights violations because it means jobs. We have been traditionally the moral leader in the world, and the world is safer, and we are safer at home when that's the case. And I don't want to see, you know, American morals for sale. And so we need to be honest with the Saudis about what this means if the crown prince ordered this assassination. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: I'm curious - congressman, why do you think that the president continues to tiptoe around this? ERIC SWALWELL: I think the president, just like he tiptoes around Russia's interference in our election, the reason he tiptoes around China - he eased sanctions against a Chinese company the same week that they lended (ph) him or lended a Trump Tower property $500 million - is because he's got conflicting financial interests. And we're going to see in this new Congress his tax returns - not because we haven't voyeuristic interest in where he is invested but because, for our national security, we need to know where he has conflicts of interest so that we can interdict or intervene. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He sits on the House Intelligence Committee. LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: Thank you very much for your time, sir. ERIC SWALWELL: Thank you so much.

Several news organizations, citing unnamed sources, report that the CIA has concluded that Mohammed bin Salman ordered Khashoggi's death. NPR's Lakshmi Singh speaks with California Democrat Eric Swalwell of the House Intelligence Committee.

Mehrere Nachrichtenorganisationen berichten unter Berufung auf ungenannte Quellen, dass die CIA zu dem Schluss gekommen sei, dass Mohammed bin Salman den Tod von Khashoggi angeordnet habe. Lakshmi Singh von NPR spricht mit dem kalifornischen Demokraten Eric Swalwell vom Geheimdienstausschuss des Repräsentantenhauses.

几家新闻机构援引不愿透露姓名的消息来源报道，美国中央情报局已得出结论，穆罕默德·本·萨勒曼下令处死卡舒吉。NPR新闻的拉克希米·辛格采访众议院情报委员会的加州民主党人埃里克·斯沃尔韦尔。

LAKSHMI SINGH, HOST: President Trump visited California today to see damage caused by the wildfires. The death toll continues to grow. According to the latest figures, at least 71 people have died. And the list of individuals unaccounted for has grown dramatically. NPR's Tom Goldman reports the county sheriff overseeing search and rescue efforts is trying to tamp down possible alarm about the surging numbers. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Roman Digby's 78-year-old dad, John, died in Northern California's Camp Fire. Roman says the call this week from the coroner ended a gnawing uncertainty. ROMAN DIGBY: Obviously, I wish that he hadn't passed away. But not knowing if he was out there somewhere needing help or if he had passed away - just the not knowing was terrible. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: But, for so many others, that uncertainty hangs over them like the oppressive blanket of smoke that still envelops Butte County and beyond. In the past few days, the number of missing and unaccounted for has skyrocketed from about a hundred to more than 1,000. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: If you have questions or want to do a report on missing persons, they're right here. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Late this week, authorities transformed the former Sears store at the Chico mall into an assistance center for fire survivors. Two long tables were set up next to each other with signs reading missing persons, DNA. People could walk up and arrange for DNA swabs to help identify possible family members' remains. Or they could provide needed information about the growing list of missing. Gary McGrath (ph), on crutches, approached the tables, perhaps with good news. GARY MCGRATH: My cousin is listed as missing. At least, I think it's him. It's just the misspelled name. GARY MCGRATH: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: And you've been in touch with him? GARY MCGRATH: Yes, I have. GARY MCGRATH: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Yeah. GARY MCGRATH: And his wife. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: McGrath lives in Magalia, a foothill town next to Paradise. Paradise was almost completely destroyed. He hasn't been back to his house yet, but he thinks it's still standing. McGrath tears up, saying he feels guilty about that. Reporting his cousin helps. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: If I can get one person off that list, it'd make me feel good. I wish I could get all of them off. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: As that list has grown, so have speculation and concern that many of the people on it will end up on the list of those who died. And it's why, last night, Butte County sheriff Kory Honea calmly but firmly pleaded with reporters. KORY HONEA: I've been very upfront, right, with how difficult this situation is and how grave it is. But I don't think it's appropriate for me to speculate on the ultimate gravity of it, which is why I released the numbers with the information that I have and hoping that you'll provide the appropriate context. GARY MCGRATH: Honea says the list is dynamic, and it'll fluctuate every day. He says the numbers have jumped because officials now are able to process more calls and emails reporting missing people. And more data is being reviewed from the emergency calls in the first chaotic moments when the fire erupted 10 days ago. Honea adds, it's quite possible the list contains duplicate names, and he defended his decision to keep putting out what he calls the raw data. KORY HONEA: I can't let perfection get in the way of progress. It's important for us to get the information out so that we can get started on identifying these unaccounted individuals. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Honea was asked whether we'll ever know precisely how many people died. He says, that's within the realm of possibility - adding, it's the nature of a tragedy like this. TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Tom Goldman, NPR News, Chico.

While the number of fatalities in the state's deadliest wildfire in history creeps upward, the list of those unaccounted for is growing much higher. What's behind the rapid increase?

Während die Zahl der Todesopfer des bisher tödlichsten Waldbrandes in der Geschichte des Bundesstaates immer weiter ansteigt, wird die Liste der Vermissten immer länger. Was ist der Grund für den raschen Anstieg?

该州历史上最致命的野火中的死亡人数在攀升的同时，下落不明的人数也却越来越多。快速增长的背后原因是什么？

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Fifty years ago this week, Ghana became independent - the first nation in Africa south of the Sahara to shake off European colonial domination. And Ghanaians are celebrating that landmark with music and flags fluttering from lampposts, buildings and on human beings. Back in 1957, Ghana was a trailblazer, leading the continent towards total liberation. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dozens of African countries followed suit, winning independence in the two decades that followed. Now, half a century later, we ask what has been the legacy of pioneers on the continent by Kwame Nkrumah, the chief architect of independence in Ghana? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In a moment, we'll hear from Dr. Jean Davison, who lived and worked in Africa for 25 years. She'll tell us about how Ghana's early socialist roots are playing out today. But first, we're joined by NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton, herself a Ghanaian. She's been covering the Ghana at 50 celebrations in the capital Accra. Hi, Ofeibea. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Hi. Hi from a very happy, rather jubilant Accra during the 50th anniversary celebrations. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So give us a sense of what's happening on the street. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Street parties, almost from the time independence was declared 50 years ago. There was a reenactment of the declaration by Kwame Nkrumah and his right and left-hand man. It used to be at the Old Polo Grounds, which have now become Independence Square. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: And Kwame Nkrumah is now buried in Accra, and it was at his mausoleum that President John Kufuor and the other African heads of the states and dignitaries from all over gathered to hear the reenactment of Ghana's declaration of independence. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: There's a feeling of - I'd say a celebratory feeling amongst most Ghanaians, although, some feel there's very little to celebrate. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, tell us more about Kwame Nkrumah and the other founding fathers of Ghana. They had a pan-African vision of a united continent. Did those high hopes and dreams become reality? OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Some yes, some no. With South Africa in 1994 achieving its so-called independence, its liberation, I suppose that dream of Africa's founding fathers has been achieved because the whole continent has independence. But, I think there was a bigger dream that has not been achieved - a continent that would really be a global force in the world because it was united behind all its people and could speak with one voice, even though the African Union now exists as a continental entity. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: I think the dreams of Kwame Nkrumah, Haile Selassie, Sekou Toure of Guinea and the other pioneers of independence haven't quite achieved what they hoped it would be. But, of course, this continent has been blighted by military coups, by poverty, by destruction, by civil wars, and perhaps that wasn't part of what the forefathers were hoping for for this continent. But, unfortunately, it came to damage and devastate their dreams. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you've been talking to young Ghanaians. What about the younger generation? How do they feel? OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: I think it depends how young you are. Young Ghanaians are pretty hopeful. They're going to school, most of them - Kwame Nkrumah brought in free education here in Ghana. But those at the university level, the graduates, many of them are saying, no jobs. We've gone to school for all these years - either that we have jobs, but we can't afford to look after our families. We can't afford to start families. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: But I spoke to a young boy called Anthony Desousa(ph), 14-year-old. He was part of the school group that were doing the gymnastics at the main celebration of Independence Square. I said to him, how do you feel about being Ghanaian? Mr. ANTHONY DESOUSA (Student): I'm proud to be a Ghanaian. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Why? Mr. ANTHONY DESOUSA (Student): Because we are rich in culture and so many things. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Like what? Mr. ANTHONY DESOUSA (Student): Like the drumming, the museums and other places I like. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: What do you think is the future for young people in Ghana, people like you? Mr. ANTHONY DESOUSA (Student): I think our future is to bring up the country. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: How? Mr. ANTHONY DESOUSA (Student): By working hard to achieve our aim. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, he sounds like a real darling. But, Ofeibea, not everyone has been enthusiastic about the celebrations. Tell us why. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: And that's ordinary Ghanaians and the more high-profile Ghanaians. For example, the former president, Jerry John Rawlings. Now he, along with Kwame Nkrumah, have really dominated the president political landscaping Ghana for the half century since independence. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: But former President Rawlings feels that he has been sidelined, marginalized by the current government of President John Kufuor. And he boycotted the celebrations altogether. And he agreed to speak to journalists to explain why he had boycotted. He was pretty furious. Mr. JERRY JOHN RAWLINGS (Former President, Ghana): It was our independence, fighting for freedom and justice from the white man. We are yet to win our true freedom from the black men who took over from the white men. Wake up. Please, wake up. Otherwise, why does Africa have this image? FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So that is definitely very forceful. All in all, it seems as if Ghanaians are split, and there may be something of a checkered legacy since independence 50 years ago. Is Ghana on the right path? It has a reputation for being the good kid in a rough neighborhood over there in West Africa. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: I feel it depends who you are. As you heard there, former President Rawlings was bringing up more of the political reasons why he feels Ghana is not on the right path, but local Ghanaians talk about the economic reasons. You know, they talk about the fact that 50 years on, there are areas even in the capital Accra that don't have running water. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Electricity has become an issue. And why is Ghana spending $20 million on this year-long celebration when for ordinary Ghanaians, life is still difficult and poverty still exists? But then many other Ghanaians are saying, look. This is all relative. You got to keep it in perspective. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Look at Ghana. We have been a peaceful country. Look at the region. Liberia has had a civil war. Sierra Leone has had a civil war, Guinea's in turmoil. Across the border in Ivory Coast, there's still turmoil after the civil war. Ghana is at least stable and peaceful, and that is, at least, a dividend. But many Ghanaians are saying that's not good enough. Ghana has got to really push forward - as Kwame Nkrumah used to say, forward ever, backward never. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Ofeibea, thank you for giving us a firsthand report on your nation's 50th anniversary of freedom. OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: There you go. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton spoke to us from Ghana's capital, Accra.

Ofeibea Quist-Arcton talks with Farai Chideya about what's ahead for the West African nation and how Ghana is celebrating its 50th anniversary.

Ofeibea Quist-Arcton spricht mit Farai Chideya über die Zukunft der westafrikanischen Nation und darüber, wie Ghana sein 50-jähriges Bestehen feiert.

奥菲比亚·奎斯特·阿克顿与法莱·奇德亚谈论了这个西非国家的未来，以及加纳如何庆祝建国50周年。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Some bittersweet news this morning - Big Bird is retiring. More precisely, the voice behind the man inside Big Bird is hanging up his bright yellow feathers after nearly 50 years on "Sesame Street." CAROLL SPINNEY: (As Big Bird, singing) I'm taking a break... KEVIN CLASH: (As Elmo) Oh. CAROLL SPINNEY: (As Big Bird, singing) ...Taking A rest... KEVIN CLASH: (As Elmo) Oh, Big Bird. CAROLL SPINNEY: (As Big Bird, singing) Taking some time to be at my best. Oh, won't you take a break... RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Puppeteer Caroll Spinney has been on the show as Big Bird and other characters since the show's premiere in 1969. NOEL KING, HOST: And the Big Bird character will live on. But Caroll Spinney's last walk down Sesame Street will be recorded today at a TV studio in New York. He told NPR in 2003 that he's come a long way. CAROLL SPINNEY: My first television show was in 1955 in Las Vegas. I was in the Air Force, and I had a show called "The Rascal Rabbit Show" (ph) - paid me $10 a week. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Muppet creator Jim Henson hired Spinney to perform Big Bird, who towers at 8 feet, 2 inches tall. Spinney is 5-foot-10. So how does that work, right? Apparently, Spinney stands inside the feathered suit with his right arm high above his head. His right arm is Big Bird's neck. His hand is Big Bird's beak. Spinney says it's hot and dark and pretty bad if you're claustrophobic. CAROLL SPINNEY: I can't see out. I wear a tiny little television set that's strapped to my chest. And I'm watching to see if Big Bird is looking at whoever he's talking to or looking at the children at home. We can remove two feathers that are on by Velcro, but we try not to do that 'cause sometimes you see this little dark spot on his chest where I'm peeking out. NOEL KING, HOST: Now, Big Bird, as you probably know, is kind and sweet. But Spinney says after performing him all day, it's kind of therapeutic to switch to his other famous "Sesame Street" character, Oscar the Grouch. CAROLL SPINNEY: (As Oscar the Grouch, singing) Oh, I love trash, anything dirty or dingy or dusty... CAROLL SPINNEY: When Jim hired me, he - I didn't have a voice like that in my repertoire of character voices. I was getting desperate because it was finally down to the day before we were going to start taping. And so as I took a cab across Manhattan, the taxi driver looked at me. He said - where to, Mac? And I said, wow, what a voice. CAROLL SPINNEY: (As Big Bird, singing) Who is a friend right to the end? Who has two wings and even sings? RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Caroll Spinney has won seven Emmys, two Grammys and has been declared a living legend by Congress. When he was featured on the cover of Life magazine, he was delighted. CAROLL SPINNEY: I pointed to it. And I said, gee, I didn't ever expect to be on the cover of Life magazine. And the woman who sold the magazine said, what do you mean? I said - I pointed to Big Bird. I say, I play that. And she said - well, I wouldn't tell people about it. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Puppeteer Caroll Spinney, who retires today after nearly five decades of performing on "Sesame Street" as Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch. THE KIDS: (Singing) Can you tell me how to get - how to get to Sesame Street?

Big Bird is retiring. More precisely — puppeteer Caroll Spinney — the voice behind and the man inside Big Bird is retiring after nearly 50 years on Sesame Street. He also voiced Oscar the Grouch.

Der große Vogel (Big Bird) geht in den Ruhestand. Genauer gesagt geht der Puppenspieler Caroll Spinney - die Stimme hinter und der Mann in Großer Vogel (Big Bird) - nach fast 50 Jahren in der Sesamstraße in den Ruhestand. Er synchronisierte auch Oscar der Muffel (Oscar the Grouch).

大鸟要退役了。更确切地说，是傀儡师卡罗尔·斯宾尼背后的声音和大鸟里面的男人在芝麻街工作了近50年后即将退休。他还为“爱抱怨的奥斯卡”配音。

NOEL KING, HOST: People who live in North Carolina are feeling a little relief. The impact of Tropical Storm Michael was not as significant as many had feared. Parts of the state still haven't recovered from Hurricane Florence, which hit a month ago. In Robeson County, the schools are still closed, and district officials haven't yet said when they'll reopen. Here's NPR's Tom Gjelten. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: Robeson County is a big, rural district on a floodplain. There are 41 schools here. Each one suffered at least some water damage. And some school buildings won't be usable for weeks to come. Earney Hammonds is the district's maintenance director. EARNEY HAMMONDS: This is actually the computer services in here. This is where all the computer techs did all the repairs and maintained the computer equipment throughout the county. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: It's all stripped out now. EARNEY HAMMONDS: Yes, sir. The Sheetrock is being cut up around 4 foot. All of the studs are exposed. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: All the schools in Robeson County have been closed since September 11. And health officials here have not yet given a green light to the administration to reopen them. The county is among the poorest school districts in the state. The superintendent, Shanita Wooten, is a Robeson County native. She's the youngest superintendent here ever and the first African-American woman to lead the district. She wants her schools to make a difference in her students' lives, and she's heartbroken that the students are going on five weeks now outside of school. SHANITA WOOTEN: We've got 23,000 children who - we really don't know where they are right now. So that worries me every single day - if their needs are being met, if they're safe. Are they in damaged homes? Do they have food? Are they getting hugs? I worry because we can't physically reach them. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: One of those students is little Mary Gray. She should be in kindergarten, but today she is with her grandmother, Mary Hunt, who has taken her to the warehouse where Hunt helps to distribute relief supplies. Not a great situation, but there aren't many options. MARY HUNT: It's been trying. Yes, trying because she's active. Child care is $110 a week. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: When do you think they will be back in school? MARY HUNT: Well, I asked that question, and they said they had no idea. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: Superintendent Wooten knows parents and grandparents are upset but feels there's little she can do. SHANITA WOOTEN: The frustration is growing because right now, on the outside, the schools look OK. The water went away. But it's the inside conditions that's truly holding us up. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: When the power went out in the schools, so did the air conditioning. It was very hot and very humid - perfect breeding conditions for mold, which now has to be removed. This is another of the consequences of a disastrous hurricane on top of the property damage, people displaced from their homes, a life's investment gone - children who desperately need a solid education now falling behind. SHANITA WOOTEN: We were already struggling with the academics. When people talk about the summer slide, when kids fall back when they're not in school, we're making that gap even wider right now. Being out of school for over 20 days - they've been out longer than they've been in. TOM GJELTEN, BYLINE: Classes started here on August 27, only to stop after just 12 days. Superintendent Wooten has her speech ready for the first day back. This is going to be our second first day of school for this year, she will say. It's not often you get a do-over. Let's make the best of it. Tom Gjelten, NPR News, Robeson County, N.C.

Schools in Lumberton, N.C., and others in flood-affected areas of the state have been closed for nearly 5 weeks due to damage from Hurricane Florence. The staff is frustrated, parents are impatient.

Schulen in Lumberton, NC, und andere in von Überschwemmungen betroffenen Gebieten des Bundesstaates sind wegen der Schäden durch den Hurrikan Florence seit fast 5 Wochen geschlossen. Das Personal ist frustriert, die Eltern sind ungeduldig.

由于飓风佛罗伦萨的破坏，北卡罗来纳州伦贝顿市和该州受洪水影响地区的其他学校已关闭近5周。教职人员很沮丧，家长们很不耐烦。

IRA FLATOW, host: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. IRA FLATOW, host: Now, with that out of the way... IRA FLATOW, host: Speaking about bugging, Flora is still with us here. And our Video Pick of the Week has to do with bugs, right? FLORA LICHTMAN: Yes. Yeah. We are just up on the bug beat. We're not going to let you miss one bug story. FLORA LICHTMAN: So this week, top of the bug news is a study about how fire ants - if you take a sort of glob of them and stick them in water or, let's say, their nest floods because it's really rainy, they form together - they join together and form a raft that they can float, sail on for weeks. IRA FLATOW, host: I couldn't believe this. I saw... FLORA LICHTMAN: I know. IRA FLATOW, host: ...I didnt even know ants could do this. FLORA LICHTMAN: Me neither. IRA FLATOW, host: But then, you show that it - that somebody sort of... FLORA LICHTMAN: A graduate student. IRA FLATOW, host: ...of course, dumps a whole bunch, it must be hundreds of ants in some water, and instead of flowing down and drowning, they create this beautiful circle raft. FLORA LICHTMAN: That was the other thing that's so amazing. It's not just kind of a motley raft. It turns out that it ends up being the sort of perfect circle. And it happens - this is what the researchers are looking at. Can you look at the ants' individual movements and figure out how they create this, you know, because they don't really know what's going to the ants' minds. IRA FLATOW, host: Right. FLORA LICHTMAN: But it turns out if they move randomly and then when they hit the edge they stop moving or they turn back, eventually, through sort of the law of averages, you get this beautiful circular raft. And it carries these passengers for weeks. And it turns out, you know, I was curious, how do the ants breathe under water because some of them are submerged, right? IRA FLATOW, host: Right. FLORA LICHTMAN: So part of what keeps the raft afloat and allows these ants to breathe is that there are air bubbles trapped between the ants' bodies, so they can sort of sneak a breath here and there. IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. It's just - it's amazing. And then the other part of your Video Pick of the Week has to do with... FLORA LICHTMAN: Caterpillars and robots. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. What a combination. FLORA LICHTMAN: I know. You wouldn't think - the best part was the researcher, Barry Trimmer, was like, you know, it's weird that we're looking at caterpillars, which don't move that much, to make a robot move. But caterpillars have a few tricks for getting away quickly. They can roll up then kind of shoot away like a wagon wheel. And you can see that happening on the video. FLORA LICHTMAN: And he's interested in making a class of soft-bodied robots, robots that don't have hard parts. And the advantage is that they can sort of inflate or deflate. They can - they could go through tiny little holes. So if you're trying to navigate complex terrain, or let's say you're the Mars rover and you get your wheel stuck in the sand, you could just change your shape and get out. IRA FLATOW, host: Right. FLORA LICHTMAN: And that's the sort of advantage of figuring out how to make these soft bodies move, which is not trivial. IRA FLATOW, host: No, it isn't. And you show how the caterpillars can squeeze through those little places. And it's up there on our website, on our Video Pick of the Week, up on - the usual left side on our website. And there, you know, the ants making these rafts, which I still can't believe. FLORA LICHTMAN: They're amazing engineers. IRA FLATOW, host: And how they, you know, and how do they know how to do it in unison? You know, it's things about all of these colony, sort of insects. FLORA LICHTMAN: These social insects, they... IRA FLATOW, host: They just - together, without any sort of - how does they communicate with one another to say, build that raft, get it circular and everybody do it? FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah. I mean, it was - I asked, how do they know? Who's in charge here? And, you know, of course, no one knows how they know how to do it, but it does seem to be an adaptive strategy to deal with - they hail from the rainforest, where it's rainy. And this is how they survive. IRA FLATOW, host: Great video. It's our Video Pick of the Week, up there at Flora Lichtman's creation, up on our website at sciencefriday.com. Watch those ants build a raft, and watch this robot caterpillar, a double header. FLORA LICHTMAN: And you can do the ant experiment yourself, it turns out. IRA FLATOW, host: You can? FLORA LICHTMAN: Get some gloves, first of all, find a fire ant nest - this is what the researchers said. IRA FLATOW, host: Find a fire ant nest? FLORA LICHTMAN: with your gloves on. IRA FLATOW, host: Carefully. FLORA LICHTMAN: Carefully. Dump them in water and you'll see for yourself. IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah, but under supervision. Thanks, Flora. FLORA LICHTMAN: Thanks.

Drop a clump of fire ants into water and they will assemble into a raft that stays afloat for weeks, according to a new study. Plus, a new soft-bodied robot is modeled after caterpillars that curl up and roll away from predators without joints. SciFri's "Pick of the Week" turns to insects and engineering this week.

Wenn man einen Haufen Feuerameisen ins Wasser wirft, bilden sie laut einer neuen Studie ein Floß, das wochenlang schwimmfähig bleibt. Außerdem wurde ein neuer Roboter mit weichem Körper nach dem Vorbild von Raupen entwickelt, die sich zusammenrollen und ohne Gelenke vor Raubtieren wegrollen. SciFris \"Auswahl der Woche\" beschäftigt sich diese Woche mit Insekten und Technik.

根据一项新的研究，将一团火蚁放入水中，它们会聚集形成一个筏子，能够漂浮数周。此外，一种新的软体机器人以毛毛虫为模型，这种毛毛虫但可以蜷缩着滚动躲避没有关节的捕食者。《科学星期五》的“本周精选”将聚焦昆虫和工程学。

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: On today's Roundtable, the head of the NAACP resigns after just 19 months, and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama visit a city rich in civil rights history to battle for the black vote. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Joining us today, Robert George, editorial writer at the New York Post, Callie Crossley, social and cultural commentator on the Boston television show "Beat the Press," and Glenn Loury, professor of social sciences and economics at Brown University. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So thanks everybody, and let's go straight to Bruce Gordon, NAACP president, at least until now. He cited clashes with board members over management style and mission as reasons that he's leaving. According to the board chair, Julian Bond, Gordon tried to quit just six weeks after taking the job in August of 2005 but Bond convinced him to stay. The NAACP Board has 64 members. The group's general counsel is now going to serve as interim president. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now you remember that Bruce Gordon was the guy who brought President Bush to the table, and he explained to NEWS & NOTES in July of 2006 how he got President Bush after years of not attending the NAACP's annual convention to come. Mr. BRUCE GORDON (Former President, NAACP): It's been a candid, direct approach. It's been one that was designed to acknowledge where we have differences but make sure that we have clear conversation about that. But also to search for opportunities where our respective points of view intersect so that we can be collaborative. It's been an honest relationship. It's been a respectful relationship on both sides. And we've had enough time over the past year to test our ability to relate, to cooperate. And I guess from both sides of the relationship we think we passed the test. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Callie, may have passed the test in terms of bringing the president to the table at least to address NAACP members, but he didn't seem to give himself the chance to stay even longer in this very difficult and challenging job. He's the one who pulled out, Bruce Gordon. Why do you think it is? Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): Well, according to the reports, he said that he had a fundamental difference with the board about what the organization should be doing. And it seems to me, and according to Julian Bond, who seemed to agree with that. Julian Bond said we are a race justice organization and very few organizations are focused on that. There are many others who are doing social service work, and Mr. Gordon wanted to turn the organization's attention to social service work. And he felt that that was a duplication of efforts ably handled by many other groups. But the NAACP had a very specific focus that should be concentrated on. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): And I think it saddens me because, you know, what I appreciate about Bruce Gordon's rising into this position is that we have the best and the brightest, all of that good strategy from corporate America, hopefully, applied to an organization that could benefit from it. But if they have a fundamental difference about purpose I don't know that this was going to work out. I think I would have hope that they could have at least come to a point of understanding, let's strategize and put all of his good skills to work around the strategy. And then, you know, along the way, maybe if he still felt very strongly that there ought to be some other kind of social service work that other organizations are doing, then that will be time to bring it up. But clearly he felt the time was now and it just wasn't going to work. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now Glenn, when Callie mentioned social service, I think more of welfare, which was our first topic today on the show. But really Bruce Gordon, and I'm not saying that you didn't mean this, Callie, was talking about employment for black men, that was one of his… Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): Right. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …keystones. We've got to bring employment to young black men. Glenn, does that strike you as the kind of thing the NAACP should be focusing on? Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): Well, you know, I'm in no position to tell the NAACP what to do. It's certainly is the kind of thing that needs to be focused on. And however many organizations maybe in the business, there's plenty of work left to do and plenty of room for another well-run, you know, dedicated organization to be to take up that agenda. Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): My own personal view has a lot of sympathy for what Bruce Gordon was trying to do with the NAACP, which was on the verge of becoming a irrelevant institution in our political and social life, as dignified and, you know, glorious as is its past. Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): And I'm really saddened to see him leave under these conditions. So yes, I think there's plenty of room for the NAACP to devote itself to some of these life and death issues that are affecting the quality of life in black America, especially at the lower end of the social status scale. Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): And this business of where a civil rights organization - our business is to fight racial discrimination, not to fight the consequences of racial discrimination. I mean I just would want to see where's the beef? Okay, fight racial discrimination doing what? I mean what are you going to accomplish with this more politicized agenda. I'm very dubious about it. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Robert. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): And I would echo Glenn's comments a thousand fold. And I'm more than happy to tell the NAACP what to do. Like disband. I mean, I think this is really, really a sad moment here. It is very clear that one of the largest issues affecting the black community is the unemployment and underemployment of black men. And if that's something that Bruce Gordon wanted to focus on, wanted to make one of his priorities, you know, God bless him. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): The fact is that racial discrimination, while it still exists, it is not the huge endemic cancer across all parts of society as it was a hundred years ago when the NAACP was first founded. The organization needs to recognize that, needs to recognize what the challenges are that are affecting the black community now and go about doing them. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Unfortunately, the other big problem you have is in Julian Bond you've got a chairman who did all he could to, in a sense, almost marginalize not just Bruce Gordon, but Kweisi Mfume before him as well, for throwing out all of these political bombast of attacking Republicans personally, attacking George W. Bush personally. And it always seemed like the president, whoever it was at the time, had to then - excuse me, the president of the organization - had to then run around and try cleaning up after Bond's remarks. I don't think the organization is going to change until Bond is gone. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What about the generational issue? The NAACP has an average membership age that is definitely at least the same, if not higher, than the AARP's. What about getting younger people into the mix? Anyone want to take that on? Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): Well, I think that's an issue that's across the board for a lot of organizations, not just the NAACP. But back to the point about if a major issue, and it is, is unemployment of young black men, then it becomes one that has to go to the front of the line for black organizations. So I would agree with that. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): But I don't think that they're alone in having this generational gap. That's a real struggle in most, I think, certainly post civil-rights generation led organizations, because a lot of them are led by people who are of a certain generation and some of the other folks are saying, get out, move over. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But Callie, don't you think if the NAACP focused on the issues of young black men, they might get more of a buy-in from younger African-Americans. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): I think that's absolutely correct. But let's remember, Bruce Gordon was, you know, not 30 years old. I mean he brought to the table an aggregate experience based on, you know, being a veteran in a different field, but certainly being of the same generation. So I think it's about, you know, focus and purpose and, you're right, making the agenda something that is attractive to people who can benefit by it. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): But Callie, what Bruce Gordon brought to the table coming in from the private sector, while it is true that he was basically of the same generation, I think he's about 60, 61. While that is true, if you're in the private sector, you have to adapt to the times. Because if you don't, you lose market share and you're going to be out because you're, you know, the shareholders will kick you out. You have to see where the market is going and then adapt to it. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): It seems to me without that kind of a market kind of a sensitivity, the NAACP doesn't have that. Even you, Farai, mentioned the AARP. If you take a look at their commercials, you can see how they have moved now; they are marketing themselves to the baby boomers as they're getting older and trying to figure out how to get the baby boomers to, you know, look at children as part of the AARP's mission as well. I don't see the NAACP doing that. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right, well I want to move on - very briefly, because there's a lot of other juicy stuff to talk about. Did you want to go, Callie? Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): Oh yeah. I just want to say, I agree with Robert about Bruce Gordon. And I want to make it clear that I think this is very sad, and it's a loss. But go ahead, that's all. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right, well, I just want to reintroduce everybody. We're just listening to Callie Crossley, social and cultural commentator on Boston television show "Beat the Press." We've got Robert George, editorial writer at the New York Post, and Glenn Loury, professor of social sciences and economics at Brown University. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And in case you're just tuning in, this is NPR's NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya. This is our Roundtable. And boy, have we got news from the South -Selma, Alabama. I have walked across the Edmund Pettus Bridge myself, and it was a big day in Sunday in Selma with two top Democratic presidential candidates in town to speak, vying for the black vote. Barack Obama was at Brown Chapel AME. Hillary Clinton was at First Baptist Church. They marched together to commemorate the 42nd anniversary of Selma's voting rights march. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, here is Hillary on the Voting Rights Act yesterday. Senator HILLARY CLINTON (Democrat, New York): The very idea that in the 21st Century, African-Americans would wait in line for 10 hours while whites, in an affluent precinct next to theirs, waited in line for 10 minutes, or that African-Americans would receive flyers telling them the wrong time and date to exercise their constitutional right to vote - that's wrong. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Robert, can Hillary out-black Obama in Selma? Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): That's a great question. No, I don't think she's going to out-black Obama. And, I mean, she can't even out-black her own husband, so I don't think she's going to be able to do that. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): I mean, that was - it was a nice kind of solid speech. But, I mean, what I think this shows is that even though she is still the frontrunner in terms of the polls, she is reacting as if Obama is in the lead, because he is, in the sense, setting the tone. He had been invited to give his speech weeks beforehand, and she managed to find another church nearby to invite her to give a speech as well and came down. And it seemed like she's trying to piggyback on his things. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): And in another part of her speech, she sort of thanked, in a sense, the civil rights movement for opening up doors for, you know, women and other groups and so forth. And while I think that's true, I have - I sometimes wonder whether African-Americans are so thrilled with all of this piggybacking on the civil rights movement, and to see, in many cases, whites and immigrants and gays and so forth almost, you know, leapfrog over them in terms of their social and economic development. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Glenn, what do these political parade say to you? Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): Well, it reminded me of how momentous was the change that was associated with the Voting Rights Act, and how far we've come. And that's just worth mentioning here. Yeah, Hillary Clinton, the inevitable Democratic nominee, now is confronted with the rise of Barack Obama, and, you know, she's scrambling to try to protect her lead. Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): No, I don't that she can out-black Obama. And I think that the black community and the Democratic Party is probably going to line up pretty strongly behind Barack Obama at the end of the day. But it was interesting to watch. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, before I go to you, Callie, I have a bonus clip from Barack Obama himself. Let's take a listen. Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democrat, Illinois): They looked at each other, and they decided we know that in the world as it has been, it might not be possible for us to get together and have a chat. But something's stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. And so they got together, and Barack Obama, Jr. was born. Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democrat, Illinois): So don't tell me, I don't have a claim on Selma, Alabama. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Callie, there - you heard Barack Obama really claiming his African-Americans, although, his father was African and his mother is white. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Was American. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And he also mentioned - a little bit before where we went in on the clip - he also mentioned outright that his mother's family had owned slaves. I think that was an effort, perhaps, to diffuse this issue which has come up about presidential nominee's families in the past owning slaves. So is Barack Obama there trying to really deflect to the idea that he is not black enough, which apparently still echoes in some corners of the black community itself? Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): I have to say it drives me crazy. I think I just get so angry about hearing that. I don't - deflect would not be the word that I would use. I think that he was there to claim what you said about the other part of his legacy. He was there to claim and to remind people that if you are black in this country and have lived the life that he has, then somebody marched for you. And you are connected to the larger black African-American community whether or not you were born in Cleveland and your daddy, you know, worked in the factory. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): You know, I mean, that's just the reality of it. And so I was happy for him to address it, but not address in an obvious way, but to address it in a way that made sense - certainly - to the black people in that church, and I hope makes sense to some other people who were listening. Please drop this. It's ridiculous. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Robert, you're… Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Obviously, he is mentioning that he - his family owned slave was his attempt to out-white Hillary Clinton. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Okay, good one. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Nice point but… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Good one. But, Robert, you're of West Indian descent, and Joan-Morgan… Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): I'm West Indian origin. Actually, I was born in Trinidad. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ah, you were born in Trinidad. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): And I - but I am… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Are you black enough? Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): I'm a black American. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Because of the party I belong to, some people say no. But - yeah, they do. But… FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But you know what? Go ahead. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): …Farai, let me just say this. I mean, did you hear the quaver in Barack Obama's - I mean, he's cost a bull in the pulpit, you know what I'm saying? He's able to draw on his religiosity and in - he is black in a certain kind of cultural sense that has an authenticity that nobody can take away from him. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In fact, he used a lot of biblical references. He talked about the Joshua generation and what it owed to other generations, sort of speaking of his generation in a biblical metaphor. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Which shows the - which shows the real struggle that Hillary Clinton has because… Professor GLENN LOURY (Social Sciences and Economics, Brown University): Yes. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): …what Obama was doing was doing was - it's exactly what Bill Clinton does when he speaks to - particularly the black audiences, but when he speaks to white audience as well - is weave in biblical phrases. Naturally, he says it almost as naturally as he's breathing. And Hillary is almost like - it's almost like he's - she's running against a younger, blacker version of her own husband. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, that's quite a thought. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): It's interesting. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All, right Callie. any last minute quickies? Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): I just think that - whether or not you think she was - she'd lost in the battle of Selma, it was a very clever speech. It was. And it was very well done, and I think she played her strengths. And hey, you know, black folks also have a lot of appreciation for people who go right into the jaws of the lion's den - that's another biblical reference. So that's exactly what she did. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So all right. Well, we'll stay tuned to that. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Callie Crossley, social and cultural commentator on the television show "Beat the Press" was at Harvard University. Robert George, editorial writer at the New York Post, joined us from our New York Bureau. Glenn Loury, professor of social sciences and economics at Brown University from WRNI in Providence, Rhode Island. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Thanks, everybody. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Thanks, Farai. Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY (Commentator, Beat the Press): Thank you. Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Good to have you back. FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Next on NEWS & NOTES - thank you - actor and columnist Joseph C. Phillips on why raising the minimum wage has its risks. And we learn more about the new head of the nation's top think tank on black issues.

Monday's topics: The top man at the NAACP resigns after clashes with board members; Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton take their campaign battle to Selma, Ala. Guests: Robert George, editorial writer for the New York Post; Callie Crossley, social and cultural commentator on the Boston television show Beat the Press; and Glenn Loury, professor of social science and economics at Brown University.

Themen vom Montag: Der Top-Mann der NAACP tritt nach Zusammenstößen mit Vorstandsmitgliedern zurück; Barack Obama und Hillary Clinton führen ihre Wahlkampfschlacht nach Selma, Ala. Gäste: Robert George, Chefredakteur der New York Post; Callie Crossley, Sozial- und Kulturkommentatorin der Bostoner Fernsehsendung Beat the Press; und Glenn Loury, Professor für Sozialwissenschaften und Wirtschaftswissenschaften an der Brown University.

周一新闻主题：全国有色人种协进会的最高领导人在与董事会成员发生冲突后辞职；巴拉克·奥巴马和希拉里·克林顿在阿拉巴马州塞尔玛展开竞选大战。特邀嘉宾有《纽约邮报》社论撰稿人罗伯特·乔治；波士顿电视节目《击败新闻界》的社会和文化评论员凯丽·克罗斯利、布朗大学社会科学和经济学教授格伦·卢里等。

TONY COX, host: As Farrakhan continues to step away from his role as the Nation of Islam's leader, the minister leaves behind a controversial legacy. Born Louis Walcott, Farrakhan joined the Nation of Islam in the 1950s, just as the Civil Rights Movement was gaining momentum. He and many others were attracted to the NOI's message of black empowerment. The group also spread controversial ideas of racial separation. TONY COX, host: After Farrakhan rebuilt the NOI in the 1970s, he emerged as an influential black public figure whom many critics have called an anti-Semite and a racist. In his later years as head of the Nation of Islam, now based in Chicago, Farrakhan has pushed for reconciliation. TONY COX, host: Joining me now to talk about Minister Louis Farrakhan as a leader, is Melissa Harris-Lacewell, professor of Politics and African American Studies at Princeton University. We are also joined by Clarence Page, nationally syndicated columnist for the Chicago Tribune. Thank you both for coming on. Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Nationally Syndicated Columnist, Chicago Tribune): Thank you, Tony. Professor MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Politics and African American Studies, Princeton University): Yes, good morning. TONY COX, host: Let's start with this. Farrakhan's name has been associated quite often with controversy. His public statements and rhetoric have angered Jewish people, they've have angered whites, and they've angered some blacks, as well. TONY COX, host: Now, we know how Farrakhan became such a controversial figure. But my question - I'll direct it to you first, Melissa - is as he has gotten older, how has he moved to resolve some of those past remarks, or has he? Professor MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Politics and African American Studies, Princeton University): Well, I would say that there's really a sort of a two-stage process going on. On the one hand, the Nation of Islam has increasingly embraced connection with typical electoral politics and world politics. So as they moved into the '80s, and particularly into the '90s - certainly the height of 1995 - The Million Man March, there was a sense that the electoral strategy's participation in the American system became more a part of what Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam was teaching. Professor MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Politics and African American Studies, Princeton University): On the other hand, Farrakhan's authenticity as a black leader, his capacity to draw crowds, has largely been related to the belief that Farrakhan is unbought and unbossed - that he will say anything; that he is a brave leader who will stand up to the powers that be. Professor MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Politics and African American Studies, Princeton University): And so he's never wanted to get rid of that. Because that's really at the center of his powerbase among African Americans. TONY COX, host: Well, would you say, Clarence, that the Million Man March was the apex of the NOI's popularity, at least so far? Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Nationally Syndicated Columnist, Chicago Tribune): I would. That was a significant event, nobody can take that away from him. It was a big risk for him to call for a million black men to show up on the mall in Washington. And he tapped into something that other people weren't detecting in the public mood in the black community at that time. And it was a magnificent event. My own disappointment came afterwards, as I have editorialized, that he didn't make more out of that event. Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Nationally Syndicated Columnist, Chicago Tribune): We have anecdotal evidence of some people going back home and starting some new projects and all. But Farrakhan, instead of building on black progress in American neighborhoods, became more involved in Sudan and other Middle East countries as he tried to extend his international influence. And I think the return from that has been a rather minimal. TONY COX, host: Melissa, let's step away from Farrakhan the person for a second, and talk about the Nation of Islam as a whole. Over time it seems to have switched back and forth between a religious movement and a political organization. Which is it mainly today? Professor MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Politics and African American Studies, Princeton University): Well, one might claim that all of the African American sacred or spiritual experience is always inherently political, in that for even slaves to have said to their masters in the period of enslavement, God loves me, is in fact a political statement at that moment. So in a way, I think, we could look at all the black spirituality, religious experiences as being connected to a political and social movement. Professor MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Politics and African American Studies, Princeton University): Now, that said, the Nation is clearly the most explicit. And what I would say is that for the followers, the religious followers of the Nation, it's a spiritual movement. But for those who are followers of Farrakhan, who have a respect for him as a leader but who may profess Christianity or no religious identity at all, it really is simply the racial, political, nationalism of the Nation of Islam which makes it so powerful. TONY COX, host: Clarence, would you, and it's always dangerous when you apply tags to organizations or to people, but I would like to get your opinion with regard to whether the NOI should be considered as a fringe organization. Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Nationally Syndicated Columnist, Chicago Tribune): Well, you know, Tom Wolf once said that a cult is a religion that does not have political clout. And that's largely true. Thus, in the black community, the Nation of Islam is a full-fledged religious organization, a very significant one in many of our lives. For mainstream white America, it's fringe, it's a sect off there in the corners with marginal influence. Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Nationally Syndicated Columnist, Chicago Tribune): I think this is an important thing to remember, I mean, I'm old enough to remember back in the '50s, when I was a kid, and the Nation of Islam was - the Fruit of Islam men selling fish and bean pies door-to-door. That was what most black folks knew about Islam. But Malcolm X changed that. I think that he opened up the world of Islam - the real world of Orthodox Islam. Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Nationally Syndicated Columnist, Chicago Tribune): And now, African-Americans see more choices. So we're seeing thousands of African-Americans turning to Orthodox Islam. Not that many turning to the Nation of Islam, although the Nation still has that respect. So I think over the years, it's gone through a lot of changes, reflecting who its leaders or prime spokesman have been. TONY COX, host: We got less than a minute. Melissa, I want to direct this towards you because I've noticed, to follow up what Clarence said, more of a presence on the streets than I've seen, say in the last five years, for members of the Nation. Can the group, which is now more than 70 years old, be as relevant and attractive as it was when it was created in a still heavily segregated America. Ms. LACEWELL: Absolutely, it can be. And, in fact, particularly because the Nation has always had a strong message to African-American male urban youth, and that is a population, which remains woefully underserved by social organizations, political organizations, judicial civil rights organizations, and dare I say - the traditional African-American protestant church. And given that population still is deeply in need, I believe the Nation can continue to serve that population and therefore grow. TONY COX, host: Melissa Harris-Lacewell is a professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University. And Clarence Page is a nationally syndicated columnist for The Chicago Tribune. Thank you both very much for coming on. Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Nationally Syndicated Columnist, Chicago Tribune): Thank you, Tony. Ms. LACEWELL: Thank you.

Melissa Harris-Lacewell, professor of Politics and African-American Studies at Princeton University, and Clarence Page, nationally syndicated columnist for the Chicago Tribune, about Louis Farrakhan, his recent message of religious reconciliation, and the future of the Nation of Islam.

Melissa Harris-Lacewell, Professorin für Politik und Afroamerikanistik an der Princeton University, und Clarence Page, national syndizierter Kolumnist der Chicago Tribune, über Louis Farrakhan, seine jüngste Botschaft der religiösen Versöhnung und die Zukunft der Nation of Islam.

普林斯顿大学政治学和非裔美国人研究教授梅丽莎·哈里斯·拉斯韦尔和《芝加哥论坛报》全国联合专栏作家克拉伦斯·佩奇讲述了路易斯·法拉坎、他最近关于宗教和解的信息以及伊斯兰国家的未来。

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is where we've been trying to keep track of cybersecurity attacks, as well as the themes being pushed by bots and trolls. Well, Election Day has come and gone without any major allegations of coordinated attacks, but there were still plenty of false information shared on social media platforms leading up to the midterms. Kevin Roose has been monitoring that for The New York Times, where he is a technology columnist. And he's with us now. Kevin, welcome. Thanks for joining us. KEVIN ROOSE: Thank you for having me. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You and your colleagues asked New York Times readers to send in examples of election-related misinformation that they saw online. You got something like 4,000 of them. What were some of the trends that you noticed? KEVIN ROOSE: Well, they ranged from sort of very low-tech misinformation mail that was sent to voters' houses up to text messages and Facebook ads and other examples of digital misinformation. One theme that we saw a lot was that instead of cropping up around specific candidates or specific races, misinformation would target these big national issues so things like the migrant caravan or the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. Those would sort of create a big flood of hoaxes and doctored images and mislabeled videos and things like that that would spread on social media and would then, you know, be seen by hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of people. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So let's pick one, for example, the so-called migrant caravan. This is the group of mostly Central American migrants who've been traveling through Mexico toward the United States. You found several images shared on Facebook and Twitter claiming to be of this group. What were they actually? KEVIN ROOSE: Well, some of them were old. There was one post, for example, that got something like 36,000 shares, and it was a Facebook post that had three images of bloodied police officers. And this was being used as evidence that the caravan was becoming violent. And, actually, if you just do a reverse image search on those photos, you would find that they were old. They were, like, from 2012, 2014. They were from other protests, and they didn't have anything to do with the caravan. But they were put up as an example of what the caravan was doing. KEVIN ROOSE: I was going to ask you that. How did you trace the origins of these to demonstrate, really, almost immediately that many of these were false? How were you able to do that? KEVIN ROOSE: Well, one tool is called a reverse image search. You do it on a site called TinEye. And the way that it works is you sort of paste in the image, and it looks for previous instances of that image. And it'll let you sort of track the chronology of these images as they appear on the Internet. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You portray a very disturbing picture, frankly - you know? - of the landscape. You wrote that every time major political events dominated the news cycle, Facebook was overrun by hoaxers and conspiracy theorists who used the platform to sow discord, to spin falsehoods and stir up tribal anger. This is from a piece that you wrote. Two questions here. Are the social media companies - Facebook, specifically, but the others - doing enough to address this? And the second question is, what should the rest of us be doing. KEVIN ROOSE: Well, the companies are doing more than they have in the past. But we've seen that, as the companies start to defend against misinformation, the people spreading this misinformation actually adapt. They change their tactics. So one thing we've seen, recently, is that people will now take screenshots of text and share - instead of sharing text, they will take a photo of text and share that because it makes it harder for these automated systems to scan and flag misinformation if it's not there in text. KEVIN ROOSE: And I think the thing that users can do is just to beware. If there's no source attached to something, if you don't see a website that you recognize, if it's in a group or a page that you don't know, you know, what the origin of or how trustworthy it is, just hold off on sharing it maybe until you're a little more certain about the provenance and whether it's true or not. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Kevin Roose is a technology columnist for The New York Times. Kevin, thank you so much for talking to us. KEVIN ROOSE: Thank you for having me.

New York Times columnist Kevin Roose was tracking trolls and fake news on social media during the run up to the midterm elections .

Der Kolumnist der New York Times, Kevin Roose, verfolgte im Vorfeld der Zwischenwahlen Trolle und gefälschte Nachrichten in den sozialen Medien.

《纽约时报》专栏作家凯文·鲁斯在中期选举前追踪社交媒体上的喷子和假新闻。

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This morning, residents in Florida's Panhandle are waking up to a view of the devastation that was left behind by Hurricane Michael. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah, this was quite a storm. Trees came down, roofs came off, homes were lifted off of their foundations, and parts of the shoreline appeared to be just swallowed up. So far, two people are confirmed dead. And as they start their Thursday morning, more than 400,000 power customers in Florida and southeastern Alabama are without electricity. This is the voice of Florida's Governor Rick Scott on Wednesday as he was trying to reassure Panhandle residents that they are going to see help. RICK SCOTT: As soon as Michael passes, we will have a massive wave of response and support coming down and around the Panhandle. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Now, Michael has been downgraded to a tropical storm, and it is moving across Georgia and into the Carolinas, which is a region already hard hit by Hurricane Florence just a few weeks ago. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. We've got meteorologist Jeff Huffman with Florida Public Radio on the line from Gainesville, Fla., where he has been monitoring all of the storm's machinations. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hey, Jeff. Thanks for being here. JEFF HUFFMAN, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What is the status of the storm this morning? JEFF HUFFMAN, BYLINE: Oh, it is downgraded to a tropical storm. But it is still a rather stout tropical storm, moving from eastern Georgia into western South Carolina, winds of 50 mph. And it will continue to weaken steadily over the Carolinas. It's primarily a heavy rain producer now, but there's still some tropical-storm-force wind gusts that could cause some damage. And there will be a tornado risk in the Carolinas as well later today. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It felt, Jeff, like this hurricane - it probably didn't feel this way to you - but for the rest of us, laypeople, it felt like it sort of popped out of nowhere. We were still dealing with the residuals of Florence, and this storm just gained so much wind so quickly. What happened? JEFF HUFFMAN, BYLINE: Well, it did. And Florence and both Irma last year traveled for, you know, thousands of miles across the Atlantic. We had days to prepare. When you get into the month of October, the central Atlantic is less favorable for tropical cyclones to develop, so these waves don't really develop until they get closer to land. And that's what happened here with Michael. And it has happened before. The Caribbean, especially, is a place where storms can rapidly intensify. And we had water temperatures in the Gulf 85 to 88 degrees, very little wind shear. And it was forecast by the hurricane center to rapidly intensify, and it certainly did. And unfortunately, it kept intensifying up until landfall. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Do we know what the storm surge ended up being? There were some concerns it was going to get up to 13 feet. Is that right? JEFF HUFFMAN, BYLINE: Yeah. I think we have some confirmed reports right now of 8 1/2 feet over near Apalachicola. Of course, damage assessments will be done later to determine where some of the higher amounts may have been in between these reporting stations. The storm ended up, Rachel, to be a little more compact. Stronger hurricanes typically are more compact, so that did lessen the reach of the storm surge a bit. But we had reports all the way as far as Tampa of water flooding coastal roadways. And we had reports in Cedar Key of a storm surge of 2 to 5 feet. And those areas are 200 to 300 miles from where the storm tracked. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Overall, it lived up to expectations, though. This was a historic storm. JEFF HUFFMAN, BYLINE: It was. And not always do they become the worst-case scenarios, where they come ashore. And unfortunately, this one did. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jeff Huffman of Florida Public Radio giving us the latest on Hurricane Michael, now downgraded to a tropical storm that's moving inland. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thanks so much for your reporting. We appreciate it. JEFF HUFFMAN, BYLINE: You're welcome. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, it wasn't exactly a full correction, but yesterday's drop in the Dow caught a whole lot of people off guard. It fell by more than 800 points, the largest drop in six months. DAVID GREENE, HOST: You know, one reason people were surprised is because economic growth has been strong. Unemployment is at a record low. So the question is - what spooked investors here? President Trump is blaming the Federal Reserve, which sets interest rates, for the sell-off. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I think the Fed is making a mistake. They're so tight. I think the Fed has gone crazy. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Well, whatever or whomever you blame, the Dow drop has markets in Asia and Europe reeling this morning as well. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. We've got NPR senior business editor Uri Berliner with us this morning. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Uri, what's going on? Why the drop? URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Good morning. Well, there are a lot of things that are going on right now. One is that, you know, we've had a decidedly sour mood take over the market in the last few days. The S&P 500 has fallen five straight days. It got a lot worse yesterday. And on the Nasdaq, where a lot of the tech stocks are traded, it was even worse. It was down more than 4 percent. And a lot of this isn't really that surprising because the big technology companies, they've led this long rally. They've really powered it. You know, the names you know - Facebook; Amazon; Apple; Netflix... RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. URI BERLINER, BYLINE: ...Google; Alphabet, which is Google's parent company - they've led this rally. But since the beginning of the month, they've started to fall off. Some of those stocks are really struggling now. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So President Trump is blaming the Fed, presumably because they raised interest rates. Can you explain the connection here? URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Right. Well - so the Fed has raised interest rates eight times in the last three years. It started from a very low base. Rates were basically zero for a long time. So it steadily started to raise rates as the economy improved, as it recovered with the intention of keeping inflation in check in this recovery and keeping the economy on an even keel. But that rise in interest rates makes borrowing costs more expensive for companies, for people. And it can have the effect of somewhat slowing the recovery. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And the president - as we heard him there say that he thinks the Fed has gone crazy - he clearly disagrees. He wants the Fed to prop up the economy by keeping interest rates low. Explain why that's not necessarily a great idea. URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Well I mean it's not uncommon for for presidents to complain about the Fed or to be unhappy with the Fed. When they raise rates especially if it's any time close to an election what is unusual is for a president to say the Fed has gone crazy. That's really unusual. You know if the Fed has a policy where it's trying to keep this recovery going it's trying to keep inflation so it wants a steady economy. If you keep rates very low there's the potential the economy could overheat and fall back into recession. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right now of course we know President Trump talks a lot about the stock market as an indicator of whether or not the overall economy is healthy. It is. It isn't necessarily the best indicator but as you mention the elections coming up. So it matters to him a lot. URI BERLINER, BYLINE: It sure does. I mean, he's talked throughout his administration about how great the economy has been and how great the stock market has been. He's taking a lot of credit for that. Now, if the stock market does go into a downturn, it will be interesting to see how he explains that and what he thinks the cause is of it. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR senior business editor Uri Berliner for us. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thanks, Uri. URI BERLINER, BYLINE: Thanks. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right we're learning more this morning about what might have happened to the missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. He went inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, last week, and he has not been seen since. DAVID GREENE, HOST: And here's one new thing we have learned. The Washington Post is reporting that at one point, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia ordered agents to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia from his home in the United States. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said yesterday that if if the Saudi government was behind Khashoggi's disappearance, that would be, quote, "a game changer." LINDSEY GRAHAM: I've never been more disturbed than I am right now. If this did in fact happen - if this man was murdered in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul, that would cross every line of normality in the international community. If it did happen, there would be hell to pay. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Now, Saudi officials are continuing to deny any involvement in Khashoggi's disappearance. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, we have reached Kareem Fahim. He is The Washington Post correspondent in Istanbul who's been following this story closely. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Karim, can you just explain what exactly you have learned that U.S. intelligence officials knew? KAREEM FAHIM: Hi. Yeah. Thanks for having me. KAREEM FAHIM: As my colleague Shane Harris reported today in our paper, the U.S. officials are citing intelligence intercepts of Saudi officials discussing this plot to lure Jamal back to Saudi Arabia. We don't know for what purpose exactly. And you know, Jamal had told friends over the last year about numerous attempts by either Saudi officials or people close to the Saudi government confirming some version of this story - that he was offered jobs or assured that he would be safe if he returns to the kingdom. So we're still learning more about this. But it adds detail to what we might know about what happened in the consulate here in Istanbul. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Because, we should just say, he has been a vocal critic of the Saudi government and had been living in the Washington, D.C., area. I mean, do we know if the U.S. intelligence officials gave him a heads-up that they knew that someone in Saudi was trying to get him back there, perhaps to do harm to him? KAREEM FAHIM: No, we don't. The details of this plot appear to have been widely circulated around the intelligence community. But we have no evidence yet that he was warned about this plot. And there's some debate about whether there was an obligation to tell him. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you are reporting - you and your colleagues are reporting that basically what seems to have happened in Istanbul - his disappearance there at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul - may have been Plan B. If they couldn't lure him back from the U.S. to Saudi, a disappearance in Istanbul may have been the subsequent plan. KAREEM FAHIM: That's certainly one theory. I mean, Turkish officials, since the beginning of this case, have maintained that what happened inside looked to them like a premeditated killing. But others are saying now that some of the details from these intelligence intercepts make it seem possible that it also may have been an attempt to capture him and bring him back to Saudi Arabia. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, this is clearly complicated for the Trump administration, which has very close ties to Saudi Arabia and Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince, known as MBS. I mean, in particular, you report, he's got a really close relationship with Jared Kushner. KAREEM FAHIM: Absolutely. The Trump administration has had very close ties with Mohammed bin Salman, and they've really promoted his vision of transformation for the kingdom. And so this whole episode has highlighted the other part of Mohammed bin Salman's rule, which has been escalating repression of dissidents and silencing dissent. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So we'll see, if Salman is seen to be responsible for this plot, if the Trump administration would put sanctions on Saudi Arabia. We so appreciate you sharing your reporting. Kareem Fahim of The Washington Post, based in Istanbul. RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thank you so much. KAREEM FAHIM: Thanks for having me.

Florida Panhandle residents will evaluate the destruction left behind by Michael. Wednesday's drop in the Dow rattled foreign markets. Saudi officials deny involvement in journalist's disappearance.

Die Bewohner von Florida Panhandle werden die von Michael hinterlassene Zerstörung bewerten. Der Rückgang des Dow am Mittwoch erschütterte die ausländischen Märkte. Saudische Beamte bestreiten Beteiligung am Verschwinden des Journalisten.

佛罗里达州狭长地带的居民将评估飓风迈克尔造成的破坏。道琼斯指数周三下跌，令外国市场不安。沙特官员否认与记者失踪案有关。

DAVID GREENE, HOST: The three-month confirmation fight is over, and Brett Kavanaugh is the newest associate justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. Yesterday he was in his chambers preparing for oral arguments before this newly constituted court. NOEL KING, HOST: But there is still a lot of bitterness over this process. Republican Senator Susan Collins was on CNN yesterday defending her vote to put Kavanaugh on the court. Collins, who's a moderate, says she was convinced Kavanaugh will not overturn a woman's right to get an abortion. SUSAN COLLINS: He says for a precedent - a long-established precedent like Roe to be overturned, it would have to have been grievously wrong and deeply inconsistent. He noted that Roe had been reaffirmed 19 years later by Planned Parenthood v. Casey. He said it should be extremely rare that it be overturned. DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, a lot of questions about whether this appointment will change the court. Will it shift the court to the right? Let's bring in NPR White House correspondent Scott Horsley, one of many journalists following the story over the last three months. Hi there, Scott. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good morning, David. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right so we have a confirmation now. Kavanaugh's on the court. What are experts, analysts saying about how the court might change with him seated? SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Kavanaugh's placement on the court cements a conservative 5-4 majority, probably for years to come. Whereas Justice Kennedy, the Reagan appointee that Kavanaugh will replace, was pretty conservative himself - but he occasionally sided with the court's liberal wing, most famously in a string of gay rights cases - Kavanaugh is expected to occupy a space well to the right. So that shifts the center of gravity. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: You will now have Chief Justice John Roberts as the tipping-point justice. The question is how much restraint Roberts displays in the name of the court's institutional integrity. That will determine whether the shift to the right is gradual or swift. But a shift it will be. DAVID GREENE, HOST: And we could start finding out really soon. I mean, October looks to be a busy month for this court. What's on the docket? And what should we be looking for? SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Well, as Politico notes, one early case is one that our colleague Hansi Lo Wang has covered aggressively. It concerns the 2020 census and that controversial citizenship question, more particularly whether Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross should have to answer questions about his role in adding that question. Critics, who say the question would compromise the accuracy of the headcount, they want to quiz Secretary Ross. The administration has tried to shield him from questioning. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: In the past, Kavanaugh has written that presidents are too important to be distracted by this kind of litigation. So we'll see if that logic extends to Cabinet secretaries. There's also a case about whether gays and lesbians should be protected from discrimination in the workplace. The court has not officially granted a review to that. That's one that could be on their docket. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Scott, one - a poll that came out last week - actually, it was our poll, NPR's - suggested that Republicans have been very energized by this confirmation battle, maybe closing the energy gap with Democrats, but Democrats also talking about, that a debate like this is going to fire up their base. Has this confirmation battle changed the dynamic heading into the midterm elections? SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: It's certainly energized Republicans to match Democrats, who are already pretty excited. We'll see if that lasts now that Kavanaugh has been seated. It's possible that, given the geography, this will have a mixed reaction. It could help Democrats in the suburban districts that will determine control of the House. And it could also help Republicans in some of the rural red states that will control the fate of the Senate. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Certainly this is something the president's going to be talking about as he campaigns this week in Iowa, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky. There's a formal swearing in ceremony at the White House tonight. So this is kind of a victory lap for the president. DAVID GREENE, HOST: NPR White House correspondent Scott Horsley. Scott, thanks. SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good to be with you, David. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right, Sunday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Un, for several hours in Pyongyang. NOEL KING, HOST: And it seems like the meeting went well. Both sides are claiming success at working toward nuclear disarmament and setting up a second summit between Kim and President Trump. But then Pompeo's trip seems to have ended on a negative note because he stopped to brief officials in Beijing, and these tensions between the U.S. and China came up. DAVID GREENE, HOST: And let's bring in NPR's Anthony Kuhn, who is in Beijing. Good morning, Anthony. ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: Good morning, David. DAVID GREENE, HOST: So let's start with this meeting in North Korea. Are Pompeo and Kim claiming that there was some sort of progress made? ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: Yes, they are. They say they're - Pompeo said that the two sides are closer to that summit, even though no date or place has been announced yet. Nor do we know whether it will happen before or after the November midterm elections in the U.S. But Pompeo was very upbeat that real progress on the North Korean nuclear issue could be made at a second summit. ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: And perhaps no one was upbeat as Kim Jong Un. According to North Korean state media, he said that he was satisfied with productive and wonderful talks with Pompeo on denuclearization and other issues. And Kim said he was optimistic about the future because he and Trump have deep confidence in each other. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Any idea what progress we're actually talking about when it comes to the nuclear issue? ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: OK, well, the way they phrase it, the way the U.S. side phrases it, is that they made progress on implementing the Singapore summit between Kim Jong Un and President Trump. And nuclear disarmament is a big part of that. Also, Kim Jong Un invited international inspectors to go check out a dismantled nuclear test site called Punggye-ri. But really, that's not really - that - the U.S. doesn't really see that as a disarmament measure, more as a confidence-building measure. That test site may actually be defunct anyway. But no details about the main things that the two sides want. North Korea, of course, wants a formal treaty ending the Korean War. The U.S. would like to see, most of all, a timeline and an inventory of what it has and when it's going - how it's going to get rid of its nuclear assets. DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, so then Pompeo moves on to China, where it sounds like things were not totally friendly. ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: That's right. We don't know exactly what happened in these talks. But when Pompeo sat down with Wang Yi, his Chinese counterpart, he got an earful. Wang Yi said, you know, you're hitting us on trade, on Taiwan and on baseless accusations, by which I think he was referring to this speech that Vice President Pence gave last week, which was - adopted a very confrontational tone. And Wang said, look, you come here. You want to cooperate with us on the North Korea issue. That's exactly why we have to avoid confrontation. DAVID GREENE, HOST: So is that at risk now? I mean, could China's cooperation - could China not be so cooperative on North Korea if they feel things are frosty with the U.S.? ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: Well, China says it has not abandoned the goal of a nuclear-free peninsula. It's going to fulfill its international obligations, such as U.N. sanctions. But, you know, Beijing and Seoul both think that North Korea needs to be rewarded when it makes progress. They think it has made progress. And they're also both very interested in investing North Korea because they see things thawing on the peninsula, and they want to take advantage of this opportunity. DAVID GREENE, HOST: NPR's Anthony Kuhn in Beijing. Anthony, thanks. ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: Sure thing, David. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right, there are still no signs of a missing Saudi dissident and journalist. Last week, Jamal Jamal Khashoggi went into the Saudi Arabia consulate in Istanbul. He was never seen coming out. NOEL KING, HOST: Yeah, Turkish investigators have now told several news organizations that Khashoggi is dead. They say he was killed by a team of Saudi agents and that his body was dismembered and taken out of the consulate. Now, Saudi Arabia denies this and says that Khashoggi left the consulate not long after he arrived. DAVID GREENE, HOST: Jamal Khashoggi was a contributor to The Washington Post. He's also been a guest on NPR. This is him speaking to All Things Considered in May. JAMAL KHASHOGGI: Even when I speak to you, I feel somebody over my shoulder. I have family back in Saudi Arabia. I have friends. And the government is having a heavy hand on us. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right, on the phone with us is Karen Attiah. She's the global opinions editor at The Washington Post. She's also Khashoggi's editor. Karen, I'm so sorry that you're going through this with someone you work with. Thank you for taking a few minutes for us. KAREN ATTIAH: No, no, thank you for covering this. DAVID GREENE, HOST: So as we mentioned, no body has been found. Are you convinced of what some Turkish officials are saying, that Khashoggi was murdered here? KAREN ATTIAH: Right, you know, we don't have proof positive of sort of either scenario, that he's alive or dead, from either the Saudis, who are still maintaining that he left the consulate, whereas Turkish officials are saying that he's dead. You know, again, what is worrying - most worrying is that we haven't heard anything for almost a week now. It's Monday. I think - I think right now we're still obviously hoping for the best. But - but it just - it just feels pretty grim right now. DAVID GREENE, HOST: I mean, Saudi Arabia is obviously denying that - the accusations that they might have killed him. But can you talk about what kind of journalist he is and why he might be a target of the Saudi government? KAREN ATTIAH: Absolutely. You know, so he's been a journalist for about 30 years. I think what people should know is that for a long, long time, he was a loyalist to the Saudi - the Saudi authorities, to the regime. He was an adviser to the royal family - very, very close to them, to the senior princes - and within the last two years or so also became more and more the target of the crackdowns on dissent. And so when we - when we got in touch about a year ago, he wrote his pretty much first op-ed, after being silenced, after being fired from multiple columns. And he said, you know, it's becoming so repressive that I have to leave. I have to leave my job. I have to have my family. And that's when we started our working relationship. And we penned dozens of columns. KAREN ATTIAH: And yes, he was critical of Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince, but also kind of took a very advisory role, wanted this young prince to do the right thing for his country. He loved - Jamal loves Saudi Arabia. He didn't want to be known as a dissident. He just wanted to be a journalist. He just wanted to be free to write the truth. And I think writing for The Washington Post gave him a certain sense of energy. And he got to be a journalist again. That's what hurts the most about all of this. DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right, Karen Attiah, thanks so much. We appreciate it. KAREN ATTIAH: Thank you so much.

The confirmation fight is over, Brett Kavanaugh is the newest associate justice. U.S. Secretary of State Pompeo wrapped up his 4th visit to North Korea. And, a Saudi journalist is missing in Turkey.

Der Bestätigungskampf ist vorbei, Brett Kavanaugh ist der neueste stellvertretende Richter. US-Außenminister Pompeo beendete seinen vierten Besuch in Nordkorea. Und in der Türkei wird ein saudischer Journalist vermisst.

确认之战结束了，布雷特·卡瓦诺成为最新的助理法官。美国国务卿蓬佩奥结束了对朝鲜的第四次访问。一名沙特记者在土耳其失踪。