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430,000,201 | I agree with the Senator from Wisconsin that this is not a question whether Mr. Spencer has get the governors certificate or not. but it is a question whether Mr. Spencer -was elected by the legislature of Alabama. We have made certain rules by which we are to ascertain whether the legislature of Alabama have elected Mr. Spencer. and by which we have said we would be bound. The rule is. that the person who comes with the certificate of the governor. duly authenticated. stating that the legislature of Alabama has elected him as a Senator. is to be received as Senator. not that he is to be received as Senator provided no ma from the State of Alabama contests his seat. but that. prima faeie. if he has the certificate of the governor. duly authenticated. that he has been elected by the legislature. we are to assume by that evidence that he has been so elected. Now. Mr. President. this case is peculiar in this: there is no member of the Senate who questions that the individual assuming to act is governor on the certificate is the governor of Alabama. That isa certain. fixed fact. Now. prima facie. I insist that the body which that admitted governor says is the legislature mst. for these purposes. bo accepted by the Senate as the legislature of Alabama. If the case of Alabama was like the case of Louisiana. where historically we know there are two persons claiming to act as governor. we should have no certain basis upon which to rest the case. but here there is no doubt that the person who assumes to act as governor is the governor. and we are bound to accept for this purpose the legislature which he certifies to be the legislature as the legislature of Alabama. and to admit the State of Alabama to representation on this floor.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 187 | Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN | Unknown | FRELINGHUYSEN | Unknown | M | 2,090 | 2,126 | 03061873.txt | 1,751 | 315 |
430,000,202 | N. I have no disposition to enter into the discussion of this question. but as reference has been made to precedents in connection with it. I wish to say this: The Senate has admitted a member without any certificate. and one of our number now taking part in this discussion has no single fragment of evidence before this body that he has been elected by any body a Senator of the United States. Under these circumstances. a gentleman comes here from Alabama. and brings some evidence. certainly. of an election. It may not be the highest evidence that might be furnished from the officers of a State. but he comes here. as I understand. for I have not looked into the doeument. with the testimony of the presiding officers of the State senate and the State house of representatives attesting the fact of his election. That is more testimony than is contahied in the case of a gentleman who presents himself here and is sworn in without any certificate from the governor of his State or the presiding officers of the legislature. But we do not. with all this testimony in his behalf. ask for the admission of Mr. Sykes. We only ask that action be suspended in the case. and that the question be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. That is a very modest demand. If it is ecopotent to admit a Senator to a seat in this body without any credentials whatever. simply because you and I and all of us fieliove that he has received an election. how much more competent is it. and how much more modest is the request. that the credentials that have the attestation that the credentials of Mr. Sykes have. shall simply be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. with the other credentials. that we may ascertain who has the real primaface right to the seat from the State of Alabama.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 188 | Mr. TIPTO | Unknown | TIPTO | Unknown | M | 2,127 | 2,154 | 03061873.txt | 1,808 | 324 |
430,000,203 | I desire to say a single word in reply to the position that was assumed by the Senator from Missouri in answer to that of the Senator from Wisconsin. The Senator from Missouri takes the position that a protest should not. in all cases. be sufficient to delay the question of qualification. I take the position that there must be a rule established. for the sufficiency of objections cannot be ascertained until inquired into. No one can toll whether the objections taken to the election arefallacious or real. until the question has been inquired into by a competent authority. Therefore it is that the petition or the remonstrance-
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 189 | Mr. ALCORN | Unknown | ALCORN | Unknown | M | 2,155 | 2,164 | 03061873.txt | 632 | 108 |
430,000,204 | Will the Senator from Mississippi permit me to state what I really did say. or meant. to say T
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 190 | Mr. SCHURZ | Unknown | SCHURZ | Unknown | M | 2,165 | 2,166 | 03061873.txt | 94 | 19 |
430,000,205 | I said that if by our action we made it generally known that any objection on the part of anybody might keep out of his seat a gentleman presenting regular certificates and credentials from the governor of his State. it would be a very dangerous practice. but I said also that if we made the rule that upon the ground of the credentials we seated the member at once. irrespective of the merits of the ease that might be brought against hii.it would be giving him a great advantage over hisopponent. and snake it his interest to prolong the contest as much as possible. I concluded. therefore. that the safest plan would be in certain eases when we. in our discretion. considered the case against a gentleman presenting himself with proper credentials. grave enough. not to seat him during the contest. but. whoa we considered the allegations trivial. to seat him. Necessarily we must exercise considerable discretion in such matters. Furthermore. I concluded that in this case a majority of the Senate. probably. not having looked into the argument laid upon our tablet" this morning. wewere not able to satisfy ourselves whether the aIlegations in this case were grave enough to keep Mr. Spencer out of his scat. or whether they were so trivial that. consistently with our convictions of deny. we mi ht admit him as .the sitting member. and I therefore expressed the hlope that the case might be postponed.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 191 | Mr. SCIURZ | Unknown | SCIURZ | Unknown | M | 2,168 | 2,188 | 03061873.txt | 1,407 | 242 |
430,000,206 | I am sure I do not know whether the paphr. the protest. the moeorial that is now upon the table of the Senate. is well founded or not. I claim to have no opinion upon that subject. and I shall not make up my opinion upon that subject until I have fully investigated the case. But I rise now to protest against a rule that would permit the Senate to deprive onethird of the States. if you please. or of the representative power of the Senate. of its right to sit in judgment here upon any question that might come before the Senate. Suppose in a time of high political excitement. if you please. upon the going out of an old Congress. the President was under articles of impeachment. and a majority of the Senate should find that by keeping out onethird of the members they could go forward to work out their purposes upon that question of impeachment. is there a Senator here who stands ready to affirm the position that a remonstrance against the admission of a Senator who comes certified by the governor of a State shall be sufficient to withhold from him his right to participate as a Senator upon the decision of that question? I hold that. be the precedent what it may in the Senate on the subject. if that precedent has been established. I. for one. stand ready to break it down and say it shall be no precedent for me. When. under the law of Congress. a Senatorelect comes here with a certificate of the governor in his hands. a governor whose authority no one stands 7ady to impeach or assail. with a legislature sitting in the State recognized by the governor. he is prima faeie entitled to a seat in this body and to be sworn in. and no safe rule can be adopted ly the Senate to depart from the principle I here lay down. Any departure from this principle goes to the extreme that the honorable Senator from Wisconsin lays down. and that is the extreme limit of the case. His position is good if his principle is recognized. In the logic of the Senator from Missouri there is a limp. He says. in certain cases. in trivial cases. fallacious cases. there should be no delay. but who is to judge of that? How can we judge of the fallacey of a protest here. until we have ascertained that fallacy by an examination into the case ? There is no person to decide. First. upon the memorial or the remonstrance of anyparty. under the position assumed by the Senator from Wisconsin. we are called upon to send to distant States for witnesses. to California if you please. and it might be that the dominant majority of the Senate would have an object (for while the Senate is a high. exalted body. it is not held to be above the passions of men. and we must confine it by and hold it to certain rules laid down. regarding the passions of men as facts) in keeping out Senatorselect from Cifliforninand from Oregon. These Senators coming fresh from the people might be able to turn the balauceon a grave and important question. and how easy would it be to file a protest here assailing the organization of the legislature or the election of the governor. in order that the majority in the Senate might go forward and accomplish its purpose on some question vital to the peace of this nation. Sir. I enter my protest against any such construction as this. against adhering to any such precedent as this. If the Senate has heretofore recognized any such policy. if it has recognized any such precedents. then I say that I stand hero ready today. so far as my vote goes. to trample them under my feet. When a Senatorelect comes here asking to be sworn. presenting credentials in fine form. nder the. act of Congress. cerified to by the governor whose authority and whose prerogative there is none to dispute. I demand in the naie of the State from which be comes that le shall be sworn and admitted to his seat. If there be. those who protest. if there be those .who have pleas to enter. let them enter their pleas and let them be heard. and if it torus out that there has been fraud. that there lh bon wrong. that we have done violence. if you please. nder the authority of a certificate of the governor. we stand ready to right that wroug. Whether r Spencer has been properly elected. I know not. whether the contestant is the proper person. I know not. and I do not askto know. I only know the fact that the credentials read at the Presidents desk are in de form of law. they have the attestaion that we require and have declared to be necessary to the admission of a Senator to be sworn upon thisfloor. anfurther than that I do net claim. and today will not further inquire.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 192 | Mr. ALCORN | Unknown | ALCORN | Unknown | M | 2,189 | 2,258 | 03061873.txt | 4,573 | 847 |
430,000,207 | obtained the fdoor.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 193 | Mr. STEWART | Unknown | STEWART | Unknown | M | 2,259 | 2,259 | 03061873.txt | 19 | 3 |
430,000,208 | Before my friend proceds I ask him to indulge me one moment. Of the credentials received yesterday. upon which Senators were sworn in. twelve are in my hand. and not one of them is addressed to the President of the Senate. I call attention to that fact in answer to the criticism made by the honorable Senator from Ohio. net now in his scat [Mr. T n A.] H e said Senator Spencers credentials were not addressed to the Presiding Officer of the Senate. Here are twelve of these credentials which we have received. and upon which Senators have been sworn in. not one of which was addressed to the President of the Senate alt of them coilng. I suppose. as did Mr. Spencers. in an envelope addressed to the Preseding Officer of this body.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 194 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 2,260 | 2,271 | 03061873.txt | 733 | 135 |
430,000,209 | Mr. President. I have. in a hurried manner. looked over the precedents that have been cited. I had looied over them on a former occasion. and was somewhat familiar with them. I undertake to saytliat there is no case. so far as I have heard in the debate. cited that is in point as against the admission of Mr. Spencer. with the exception of the GoLDnHwAiTE case. and I think it is admitted on all hands that an error was committed in that case. I will state. as briefly as I can. what a few of these cases were. The case of Keosey Johns was a ease where avacancy had occurred. and the legislature had met and failed to elect. and the governor appointed. The question arose as to the power of the governor to appoint in such a case. the Constitution providing that whon a vacancy happened the governor might appoint. The Senateheld that in that case it was a regular vacancy. and not a vacancy "happening" ii the meaning of the Constitution. and consequently they did not admit Mr. Johns. They held that although the credentials were regular still they were bound to take judicial cognizance of the Constitatioi and of thefact that the legislature had met. and those facts were then all before them. destroying the prinafadie case. and raising the question of the power of the governor. Lanmans case was precisely a similar case. Seviers ease. I think. was precisely the same. but it was decided exactly the other way. There the legislature of Arkansas met before- the State was admitted. and they elected Mr. Sexier and his colleague. Soviet drew the short term. which only lasted about a year. and expired before a meeting of the legislature. It was held in that case that the vacancy "happened" within the meaning of the Constitution. I believe it. was the same as the others. and I think if the decision in the other two eases was right this one was wrong.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 195 | Mr. STEWART | Unknown | STEWART | Unknown | M | 2,272 | 2,300 | 03061873.txt | 1,859 | 334 |
430,000,210 | I ask the Senator to give way to me to make a motion.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 196 | Mr. CAMERON | Unknown | CAMERON | Unknown | M | 2,301 | 2,302 | 03061873.txt | 53 | 13 |
430,000,211 | I will in a few moments. AR~p- 6. These cases all arose upon the theory that there was not a ersoafade case. because upon the law and certificate it appeared that the claimant was not entitled tora seat. That was the point made in those cases. There areinnumerable cases. from the foundation of the Government. which have been cited in the books. where the party was admitted on the presentation of credentials. and those cases were cited in Starks case. Mr. Bayard. in reply to Judge Trumbull. drew a distinction in the case that was perfectly conclusive as to the provious cases. lie laid down the rule that there was not an exception to it. and maintained himself completely upon that point. But the Senate said. "Here is a personal objection. and it does not fall within the rule . here is a question that goes to the qualification.) Objection was raised to Stark that he was not loyal. and it was held that that did not fall within the rule. That was the decision in the Stark case. So far. the debate shows. Mr. Bayard had a clear case upon the precedents that were given. and nobody was able to furnish a precedent where there was a primafaeie case. ahd the party was qualified. that he had not been admitted to his seat. But the distinction was drawn in Starks case that here was a personal objection and a disqualification on account of disloyalty. Cases of disqualification of the person had arisen before that. such as alienage. not having been a citizen nine years. or something of thatkind. Those cases had arisen and were met in lisine. but where a party was qualified it was not shown that a case had occurred where he was excluded. The Senator from Ohio examined this subject most thoroughly in the GOLDTIIWAITn ease. This was after the subject had been referred to the committee. I think the argumentof the Senator from Ohio in that case satisfied every member of the Senate that the Senate had done wrong in referring the case. but when the case was understood. M. GOLDHWATE was admitted to his seat. In the ease of Mr. HAMUr.TON the question arose in the minds of some Senators whether the State at the time had any right to elect a Senator. That was the case as presented. It was regular. as the committee afterward held. The Case of STOCKTON I recollect very well. There I do not know but pretty nearly a majority of the legislature. certainly a large nuinber of the legislature. sent a protest here. which was presented at the same time with the credentials. but the Senator was sworn in. and afterward. upon an investigation. it was held that he was not entitled to the seat for the reason flat he was not elected. With the exception of the GOLDTnwArrr case. I am unable to find a single precedent against allowing the party who has a prinafacie case to take his seat in the first instance. If the law on its face. or the concurrent history of the country. of which the Senate is bound to take judicial cognizance. such as the meeting of a legislature. shows that the applicant is not entitled to a seat. then he has not a priiafaecio case. Even if there were precedents to the contrary. it will be admitted that it is a safer rule to receive the Senator upon a prosefoTee case and have the contest afterward. particularly in a case like this. whore the legislatare that elected the memorialist has ceased to exist and has been absorbed. has gone into the other body. where the officers who participated in the election of tbe Senator who presents his credentials. the lieutenantgovernor and speaker. are all acting in that legislature. The contesting power has ceased to exist. That we know. as a historical fact. if I may be allowed to refer to attested facts. so that there is very little doubt in this case that the applicant will be received at the proper time. I repeat. there is very little doubt. upon the whole state of the case. that the Senator who presents his credentials will ultimately be found entitled to the seat. He presents a primafeei case. and I submit that the safe and fair rule is to admit him.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 197 | Air. STEWART | Unknown | STEWART | Unknown | M | 2,303 | 2,375 | 03061873.txt | 4,042 | 728 |
430,000,212 | I call for the reading of the credentials of Mr. Sykes.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 198 | Mr. GOLDTHWAITE | Unknown | GOLDTHWAITE | Unknown | M | 2,376 | 2,377 | 03061873.txt | 55 | 11 |
430,000,213 | Pending the question of postponement. the Senator from Delaware asked for the reading of the credentials in the case of Mr. Sykes. Is the Senate ready for the question on the reading of the credentials? The question being put. it was decided in the affirmative.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 199 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 2,378 | 2,382 | 03061873.txt | 261 | 45 |
430,000,214 | I understand that the original paper has now been returned to the Senate.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 200 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,383 | 2,384 | 03061873.txt | 73 | 13 |
430,000,215 | I wish Senators would give way for a moment. I desire to have an executive session for a very short time. However. I will wait until this paper is read.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 201 | Mr. CAMERON | Unknown | CAMERON | Unknown | M | 2,385 | 2,387 | 03061873.txt | 152 | 30 |
430,000,216 | I should like to make an appeal to my honorable friend. We can dispose of this matter much more quickly now thanby taking it up tomorrow and going over it afresh. My impression is that the debate is nearly exhausted. So many Senators have been hesard that those remaining probably will be able to say what they want to say without our sitting to an inconvenient hour. Unless the Senator has some special wish for an executive session. I think it would be a greater economy of time to act upon this subject nOW.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 202 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 2,388 | 2,396 | 03061873.txt | 510 | 94 |
430,000,217 | Does the Senator from Pennsylvania move to go into executive session?
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 203 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 2,397 | 2,398 | 03061873.txt | 69 | 11 |
430,000,218 | I should be very glad. indeed. to give way to my friend from New York. but. in addition to the importance of having an executive session. some little time is needed for the formation of the committees of the Senate.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 204 | Mr. CAMERON | Unknown | CAMERON | Unknown | M | 2,399 | 2,402 | 03061873.txt | 215 | 40 |
430,000,219 | What was the question last put to the Senate?
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 205 | Mr. CARPENTER | Unknown | CARPENTER | Unknown | M | 2,403 | 2,403 | 03061873.txt | 45 | 9 |
430,000,220 | Unless a motion is made to go into executive session. the Secretary will proceed to read the paper which has been ordered to be read.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 206 | The YICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 2,404 | 2,407 | 03061873.txt | 133 | 25 |
430,000,221 | Ifive way until that paper is read. The chief clerk read as follows : Is it rememnbered that on Tuesday. the 3d day of December. A. D. 1872. it boeing the second Tuesday aftor the ueetlh. il organization of tho genlral atsemobly of the State of Alebana. the senate of sail general assembly. in the senate ealeber. at the capitol. at Montgomery. openly as by a vioaroce vote of och sea to present. proceeded to name a person for Senator is Congreas fom the State of Alabama for the term beginning on the 4th (lay of March. A. D. 1B73. that the house of repreesntatives of said general assembly. on said 3d day of eacomber. failed to name apesou for Sonatori Congress na aforesaid. there bol eno quoru present is sad ltlso. chat on tile scueediig day it hwole oclock teidin. she t U hnsce of said georal anseiily met in the hall of the house of reprsentatives. in the said capitol. at ontgooery. in joint assembly. when the journal of clh house was read. and it lseoaring that the same person tiad not recovd a mijority of all the votes cast in each lose. the joint assembly then proceeded to choose openly. and by a vivavoce vote of each mnember present. a person for the porpeose aleresi. nlsd no perso having receivedl a majority of all the votes east oi sai first day. the said two houses. in joint aossibly. adjourned until twelvttclik moridian of tis succeeding day. and cotinued to meet and adieoura upon each succeeding day as aforecsald. uiitl Tuesdny. the 10th day of December. A. D. 172. upon which lay. by a vivaooce vote of each member present. Francis Wo. $ykes. of Lwrwnco County. received sixtynine votes for Senator in Congress as fbresoaid that being all the votes. a maorty of all the members elected to loth hoses ok the said goenral assmibly. ant a qeorom of each touse beinz present and voting. Thereupon the said Francis W. Sykes was duly declared slutyolected Senaor in Cogress from the State of Alabama. for the termaforesaid. aspescribe by the Constitution and laws. In witness whereof the president of the senate has hereunto sot his hand. attested by the secretary of the senate. and the speaker of the house of representatives has also set his hand. attested by the clork of the house of representives. at Montgomery. Alabatia. this the l1th day of December. A. D. 1872.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 207 | Mr. CAMERON | Unknown | CAMERON | Unknown | M | 2,408 | 2,438 | 03061873.txt | 2,297 | 408 |
430,000,222 | Now. Mr. President. there las been read. and is now before the Senate. not a memorial or a petition of Mr. Sykes. but the certificate of his election. taken from the records spread upon the journals of the only body on earth that can elect a Senator for the State of Alabama. I do not propose to state in a general proposition the cases in which alone the Senate will instantly swear a member in upon the presentation of a certificate. There is no necessity in this case for attempting the definition of the abstract proposition. All generalities are dangerous. I do not propose to base this case upon a mere abstract generality il respect to the right of Senators insta ntly to be sworn in. There is much To be said upon the idea that no State should be for an hour unrepresented on this floor when the formalites of law indicate that her representative is present. ready to be qualified into office. But. air. this is no case of that kind. The precedents which have been read. witha delicate and careful discriminations between them. arce entirely unnecessary for the present case. The facts of the case are too robust to need finese. to need technical argument. They are before the Senate and before the country. What are the facts that the Senate is called upon to consider? Mr. Spencer presents himself to be sworn in. He has a certificate from the governor of the State of Alabama. I sall presently consider the terms of that certficate. not simply the fact that it is not directed to the President of the Senate. but it will appear upon an examination of that certificate that nowhere does it state that a quorum of either Iuse that elected him were present and voted. Most carefully has that essential fact been omtitted from the certificate. While I am on this subject I may as well refer to the law. and to the certificate which is alleged to have been made in accordance with the law. The act of Congress of July 25. 1866. requires. without reading the priorportion. thatEach boose shall openly. by a vivavosee vote of each member present. name one person for Senater in Congres from said State. and the name of the person so vstrd for who shall havo a majority of the whole number of votes cart is each house shall b entered oi the journal of each hoses by the clerk or secretary thereof. lut if either h 0n00 sAll fail to give such tojority ho any person on said(y. that lact shan be entered on the journal. At twelve oclock meridian of the dny fallowing that on which proceedings are required to take place. as aforesaid. the members of the two Iou. 8s sall convene in joint assembly. and the journal of each house shall then b read. and if the same person shall have received a majority of all the votes in each house. sects person slsahl be delared duly elected Senator to rpresent sai State in the Congress of the United States. Then follows a provisiou that in case the two hones shall not have so elected(. tley slall then in joint assembly proceed to choose " by a vivavoc vote of each member present." Then what is required? And the person having a maority of all the voies of the said joint assemnbly. a majority of all the members elected to Coch houses being present and voting. shall be declared daly elected. Now. sir. let me see what this certificate says. and I draw the attoution of the Senator from Indiana. [Mr. MoaroN. J who I see is paying attention to this portion of my remarks. to it. It declares Both hoases of the said general assembly votedHow. is not statedfor a Senator of the Stats of Alabama. to reprosont the said State of Alabama in the Congress of the United States. which said vote was spread upon the journals of each house. and said veto haviig been compared and counted by the general assembly of the Stats of Alabama in coavlention assambled-." i813.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 208 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,447 | 2,511 | 03061873.txt | 3,801 | 690 |
430,000,223 | Will it be disagreeable to my friend if I interrupt him for one moment I If it will not. I beg to call his attention-
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 209 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 2,531 | 2,533 | 03061873.txt | 117 | 25 |
430,000,224 | I have the certificate before me. I had it copied. so that I cannot be mistaken about it.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 210 | Mir. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,534 | 2,535 | 03061873.txt | 89 | 18 |
430,000,225 | I do not wish to interrupt the Senator if it is disagreeable to him.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 211 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 2,536 | 2,537 | 03061873.txt | 68 | 14 |
430,000,226 | I shall be through in a few moments. if it makes no difference to the Senator from New York.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 212 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,538 | 2,539 | 03061873.txt | 92 | 19 |
430,000,227 | I do not understand whether my riend objects to myinforming him ofnfitat pr not.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 213 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 2,540 | 2,541 | 03061873.txt | 80 | 14 |
430,000,228 | 0. no . I do not object to a fact. of course.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 214 | Mr. BAYAID | Unknown | BAYAID | Unknown | M | 2,542 | 2,542 | 03061873.txt | 45 | 12 |
430,000,229 | The fact I wish to bring to his attention is this: I have been looking at the credentials (I have not looked at all of them) of the Senators who were sworn in yesterday. and so far as I have looked. I have not found one which states that a quorum of the two houses were present and voting. On the contrary. this certificate in Mr. Sponcers ease is the most particular on that point of all the credentials which so far I have found. and that recites that a majority of all the votes. not "of both houses." as the Senator read. but a majority "of all the votes in both houses." if that makes any difference. were cast for Mr. Spearer.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 215 | Mr- CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 2,543 | 2,552 | 03061873.txt | 632 | 123 |
430,000,230 | Yes. sir. and if the Senator wants something fuller in regard to that I will aefer him to the credentials of Mr. Sykes. and there he will find. in the credentials of Mr. Sykes. that on the 10th day of December. IS72By a vivavoco vote of each member present. Francis W. Syttes. of Lawrence Couty. received sixtynine votes for Senator i Congress as aforesaid. that being an c0e votes. a majority of all the members elected to bosth houses of the sail general assembly. and a ilacramn e cacti house being present and voting. There was no contest in the eases referred to by the Senator from New York. He. himself. with the consent given. upon the most distinct moral certainty of his election. of everybody present. was sworn in without atny credentials yesterday. But suppose there had been a contest of that honorable Senators seat . suppose there had been a contest with a certificate such as I have hero road. what would he then have said? Would he not then have said that all the requisites of the law should formally be complied with in such a case as that ? Now. Mr. President. the Senate must compare these two cases. They must first consider what expression of the voice of the Sate of Alabama is hero before then to inform them whether of two men one has been elected. I have shown you that. by the certificate of this general assembly. the law of the United States regulating the election of Senators in Congress was comnlied with. according to the certificate of the officers of the bodies who alone can elect a Senator. but the governor who signs a certificate does not in any line or by any word of his certificate attempt to certify a fact which could not be certified by iiin.because it would not be true. and certainly the rule of construetioa is that. as to what does not appear and as to what does not exist. the law is the same. Now. sir. who is David P. Lewis? The governor of Alabama. What did David P. Lewis. the governor of Alabama. declare ? On Saturday. the 23d of Norember. 1872. the two houses of the general assembly. at the hour appointed. ogain ossembled in the hall of the house. when and where the presiding officer of the senate. in their presence. completed the opening of the returns for the election of governor. licuteeantgovornor and other executive officers of the State. and then and there published and declared that the re. - taros established that Hon. David P. Lewis had received the higheat number of vona for governor. and Hom. Alexander MdKinotry tls highest number of votro for lionotnant governor. at th election held on the Tuesday after thefirst Monday of Novnber. 1812. snd they were dolarsod elected to said ollces. Thereupon a committee from the senate and the house was directed by the conv. ntion to be appointetl to inform those gentlessen of their election as.( inquire wheo it would suit their plhasare to be installed ii their respec ive.ollices. A joint committee was accordingly raised. who did communicate to them the resolation of tie conventin of the two houses. Sir. the legislature which so acted. which so counted Governor Lewis into his office. is the same logilature that today informs the Senate by their certificate that Francis W. Sykes was elected to the Senate of the United States. But after Governor Lewis had taken his seat. after he had accepted the returns of that legislature as the voice to nominate him into induction into office by declaring the count to have been made in accordance with law. he saw fit to address his commuieations to another and distinct body of men. organized. as is alleged. not in accordance with the laws of that State. Oil page 38 of this memorial which has bon laid upon our tablesI road this for the information of the Senatewill be found a communication from Governor Lewis to Messrs. Martin and others. He proceeded to recognize this spontaneously created legislature. one that now has no existence. which has been fused with the legislature that elected Sykes. under the suggestion of the AttorneyGeneral of the United States speaking for the executive branch of this Government. To show the state of facts. let me read from Governor Lewiss own declarations. his own letter: I am denied the pleasure customary on Indnction Into office. of meetiu the general assembly of the State harmonious as an integral body. distinct only in the two houses which compose it as a constitutional assembly. Vor the first time in the history of our State. two bodies of men are assembled in the city of Montgomcry. each laimisig to be the general assembly of the State of Alabama. meeting at different places. having different officers. and each claiming a constitutional quorum of members. eleotedby a lawful majority of their respective cosstituent. The length of time which this anomaly has existed loaves no room for me to hope that these clais can be adjusted by agreament between the bodice themselves. Such a triumph of reason and conciliation would have afforded a guarantee of harmony in future action ihat would have been most gratifying to every rightminded ma in the State. It Is the absence of thie. and kindred circumstances. that add pain to the unpleasant duty now devolved upon me. to determine. by executive recognition. which of the two bodies is the onatitutioal general asembly of the State of Alabama. He then proceeds to recite some of the facts that influenced his mind in making this decision. and I refer only to the close of his remarks: It is tno that the moans possessed by this department of ascertaining the ovi. deuce ncsary to ice action are limitod and iaperfet. lbs necessity for promnpt action. and the wont of power. preclude a fsll tnveati. gision. end legislative octicn for contesting disputed seats will offord a means of reeeifyirg any errer ha the indisponsablo accion denanded at my bands. The aclion of this dCpartment. by its reeognition.euly renders the bedy so recgnizd ofaot elhe generalnssembly of the Stats. The foru for contesting the ultimate right to seats is elsewhere. Here. then. we have from Governor Lewis. whose certificate is now relied upon as entitling Mr. Spencer to his seat. in the light of all the other facts accompanying it. the statement that the legislature so recognized by him is the legislature dcfaeto. and not dejure. Now. I ask the Senate. can a member of this body be elected by a legislature defaco only?
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 216 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,553 | 2,647 | 03061873.txt | 6,378 | 1,106 |
430,000,231 | What is the date of that letter from Governor Lewis I
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 217 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,648 | 2,648 | 03061873.txt | 53 | 11 |
430,000,232 | November 25. 1872. actor he was elected. after he was inanotrated. after he bad been declared elected by the count of the legislature that elected lir. Sykes. Let that question be considered by the Senate. Are they prepared to declare that a governor shall certify (whether lie does it in due form or not I waive for the present) the election of a Senator by a body that is a legislature de facto only. and nuot de jure? Can a legislature do facto choose a member of this body ? Let any man who is a lawyer in this body answer that question in the affirmative if he can. and yet that is what the Senate must answer in the affirmative before they can seat a menber in this body upon a certificate. by a governor. of an election by a body who are not dejure the legislature of the State. and declared not to be so by the very individual who has certified the election. Sir. if the case stood by itself. alone. the Senate would not and could not commit itself to such a proposition. thact a body do facto can elect a member to this Senate. From such a dishonest foundation nothing legal can spring. The growth must partake of the nature of the soil from which it springs. There must be law for the basis or there cau be no law for the fruits. therefore. if this case stood alone on the fact that A man came here claiming to be elected by a legislature do facto only. the Senate would reject him upon that fact appearing. But that is only half of this case. Just as it appears that one man is elected by a legislature do facto. we find that the saaie governor who certifies him to have been so elected. is himself a certified governor by a legislature dejjure. under whose count he takes his scutunder whose count he finds his title to his place. Talk of aprisafaoio case in a case like this ! Why. sir. the case is stronger upon one side than the ot her. Pria faoie. under Governor Lewiss own statement. he has certified to a legal impossibility. which is the election by a legislature de facio of a Senator of the United States. I therefore ask that this case be referred. when a committee shall have been raised by this body. and certainty one will have to be. or should be. that the case shall go before them in order that we may have this question fully examined. Hero are two men. each claiming a seatthe one. as it turns out. claiming to be elected by a legislature do facto only. and he certified yot in due form of law. and with no allegation on the part of the certifying officer that a quorum of the legislature were present and voted at the electioc. the other certified to have been elected to the same seat in due form by the legislature. in accordance with its recue ds. The Senate cannot shut their eyes to the fact that it is no mere technical question. it is not the question of the momentary occupancy of the seat. it is the broad and grave question whether. in the face of facts so strong as theso the Senate of the United States will shut their eyes to those truths which are historic. to those truths which are proven by the records. the records being before them. the records declaring that Mr. Spencer could not have been at any time the chosen Senator by a lawful legislature of the State of Alabama. The governor. who signs the certificate. declares they were not. because he himself declares and recognizes them in his public communications as being a legislature do facto only. And will not. the Senate take further notice of the historic fact that under the suggestion ofthe executive branch of this Governieat. through tice AttorneyGeneral of the United States. there has been a fusion of the legislature. which does not today contain anything like a quorum of those who voted to elect Mr. Spencer at any time ? These are the facts. which I believe are not disputable. The Senate knows them. In the face of these facts. in the face of these records. as they are now before the Senate. as at last we have got the credentials. so called. of each of theseparties before the Senate. and they know precisely the cfceognition which Governor Leivis has given the legislature that elected Mr. Sykes. by accepting his office from their committees. under their count. as the regular officers of thp State. as he himself has publicly declared by his letter addressed to the legislature that lie recognizes this. I may term it revolutionary body. as the legislature de facto only. will the Senate by their votes declare that a legislature recognized by the governor. who certifies to the Senators election as a legislature de facto only. is competent under the laws of this country to choose a Senator for a sovereign State ?
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 218 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,649 | 2,728 | 03061873.txt | 4,639 | 851 |
430,000,233 | I simply wish to enter a protest against the Senate receiving as facts the statements here marie. On the contrary. so far front there not being a quorum of the legislature that elected Senator Spencer in the present legislature. there is a quorum of the whole legislature that participated in his election in the legislatre as now organized .and that. too. after three deaths. There is still a quorum of that legislaturo in the present legislature. and seven majority. as I understand. That is my information. that those who elected him now constitute a majority of the legislature now in session in Alabama.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 219 | Mr. STEWART | Unknown | STEWART | Unknown | M | 2,729 | 2,738 | 03061873.txt | 608 | 103 |
430,000,234 | Will the Senator state his authority for that assertion I I am willing to give mine. Of course. we wish to obtain information on this subject.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 220 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,739 | 2,741 | 03061873.txt | 142 | 26 |
430,000,235 | The Senatorelect. Mr. Spencer. informs me of the fact . and not only that: I have been watching the public prints and the contests there. and I know that both bodies are republican and are so organized. and that the same officers that presided over the body that elected Mr. Spencer are still holding office there. If the majority had been the other way. they would have their own speaker.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 221 | Mr. STEWART | Unknown | STEWART | Unknown | M | 2,742 | 2,747 | 03061873.txt | 389 | 70 |
430,000,236 | There is an issue of fact here which I am not competent to settle. but issues of fact are very simple things. Time can always settle them properly. I understand from three gentlemen who are here present from the State of Alabama that I am correct in my assertion.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 222 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,748 | 2,752 | 03061873.txt | 263 | 49 |
430,000,237 | This controversy very clearly demonstrates the necessity of having some rule prescribed by law. of accepting somne form of evidenco which shall entitle a Senatorprisafaio to hisseat. The law intended to accomplish that. If it has failed to do it. it is because of the infirmity of the law. or rather the weakness of those who attempted to prescribe such a rule. The Senator from Delaware has read a letter here from Governor Lewis. dated the 25th day of November. 1872. in which he declined to recognize the courthouse legislature. so called. as bing the legislature of Alabama. The Senator ought to have gone further and stated the fact that in three er four days after that time Governor Lewis became satisfied that he had made a mistake. that that was the legislature. and he then recognized it as such. and recognized it in giving this certificate of election. which took place on the 4th of December. I have had placed in my hands within a few minutes a dispatch from Montgomery. Alabama. dated March 3. the day before yesterday. stating thatTie supreme court decides the eoarthose assembly tabs the gesersl assembly of Alablona. That was the assembly which elected Mr. Spencer. The question camne before that court s I understand it. upon a law passed by ws hat was called the cortouse legislature. but I shall not now go into the merits. I intimate no opinion upon the merits of this question.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 223 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,753 | 2,775 | 03061873.txt | 1,400 | 243 |
430,000,238 | May I ask the Senator a question of facti
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 224 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,776 | 2,776 | 03061873.txt | 41 | 9 |
430,000,239 | I have been informed that. since the fusion legislature was organized. under a suggestion of Mr. AttorneyGeneral Willianis. out of both sides. composed of portions of the two former rival bodies. that legislature has treated as nullities all the acts of tie legislature whose action terminated in the election as certified by Governor Lewis. I am informed that. as a matter of fOtct. the fusion legislature. the one recognized and created under a suggestion of the AttorneyGeneral. has treated as nullities all the acts of the other legislature. which Mr. Lewis had recoguized. prior to that tbno. as the legislature defacto. And when the honorable Senator says that I ought to have gone further and have stated that. whereas Governor Lewis. on the 25th of November. did distinctly and formally assure this legislature that they were only defaecto the general assembly of the State. subsequently he revoked that opinion. Sir. in my opinioni he never did revoke it. and he stands here today upon the fallacy that a defacto legislature can lawfully elect a Senator of the United States.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 225 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,778 | 2,794 | 03061873.txt | 1,084 | 179 |
430,000,240 | Why. Mr. President. the governor eratainly did revoke that opinion. I understand he revoked it in various ways. Tere is the evidence of it. Here is the evidence of it in the paper ny which hecertifies that Mr. Spencer was elected by the legislature 9f Alabama.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 226 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,795 | 2,799 | 03061873.txt | 260 | 46 |
430,000,241 | And also that he received a majority of all the votes in both houses.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 227 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 2,800 | 2,803 | 03061873.txt | 69 | 14 |
430,000,242 | Mr. President. tile fact stated by the Senator from Delaware. and which he has no doubt been informed is true. would be important if it were true. on the final examination of this case as it may come before the Senate. but I am informed by Mr. Spencer himself. who must be presumed to know what the facts are. that the Senator from Delaware has been misinformed. mad that the legislature of Alabama. since the fusion. or since the Sykes legislature has been merged in the coufthouse legislature. has not treated the acts of the other as invalid before that time. If Mr. Spencer is correct. the Senator from Delaware has been misinformed. But this is not the time and place to go into that. That comes up on an examination of the merits. The case stands simply thus. that Mr. Spencer is certified to as being elected in accordance with the requirements of the law of Congress. Shall we submit to the requirements of the law of Congress. or shall we permit a mere memorialist. so far as now appears. to overcome the effect of a law of Congress by a petition sent to this body? If there is to be any rule at all. we must take that prescribed by the act of Congress. There can be no other safe rule. If the Senate may have departed from that in times past. I think it was an error. A Senator suggests. "Never but once. It is not necessary to consider the merit of that precedent now. I wish to call the attention of the Senator from Delaware to the criticism he made upon these credentials. and I submitlto that Senator that he is mistaken in the effect of the language. and that the credentials are stronger in terms than they need be. and stronger in terms than the one upon which I was sworn in only yesterday. or the day before. and I think I was elected lawfully.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 228 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,804 | 2,831 | 03061873.txt | 1,764 | 330 |
430,000,243 | Your seat had no contestant.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 229 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,832 | 2,832 | 03061873.txt | 28 | 5 |
430,000,244 | But we are not now speaking on the ground of contest. but speaking of the terms of the credentials. I will first read the law and then read the certificate. and I think the Senator will become satisfied himself that the certificate is stronger than it need be in point of affirmation. The law provides that the two houses shall vote separately. and then that they shall neet on the second day in joint convention. and it. when they meet on the second day in joint convention. it appears that any one person has received a majority of the votes of each house the day before. they shall simply declare the result. and they have no voting to do. but simply attest that result. But if it does not appear that one person received a majority of each house the day before. then they shall vote. Now. how many are required to be present on the second day? Simply a majority of the whole number of the members of the legislature. There may not be a single senator present. and yet the joint convention is good provided the nunber of members of the house is great enough to be a majority of both houses. For example. the legislature of Indiana consists of one hundred and fifty members--one hundred members of the house and fifty members of the senate. Now. if on the second day there are seventysix members of the house p resent and not a single senator. that is a good joint convention. and they cae proceed to elect a Senator if it was not done before. It may conlsist entirely of the members of one house if there be a majority of the whole number of both houses present. Does the Senator understand my proposition ?
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 230 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,833 | 2,857 | 03061873.txt | 1,610 | 298 |
430,000,245 | I do. but I cannot agree to it.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 231 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 2,858 | 2,858 | 03061873.txt | 31 | 8 |
430,000,246 | I think it is correct. I will read the law: But if the same person shall not have received a majority of the votes in each house. or if either ouse shall have failed to take proeccdngs a a required by this act. tile joint assembly shall then pemeed i. chees. by alivoc vo ateuf each member present. a person for tile purpose aforesaid. ani a pesen having a majority of all the votes of the said joint assemblyNot a majority of each house. but a majority of all the votes of the joint assemblya nmjority of all the members elected to both houses being present and voting. That was the very mischief to be avoided. to prevent the breaking up of a quorum. to prevent one house from defeating the election of a Senator. as had occurred in my State and other States. and this law requires simply a majority of all the members. If all the members are one hundred and fifty senators and representatives both. and there are seventysix represeutatives present and no senator. tihee if thirtynine representatives vote for one man. he is elected. because be has a majority of the joint assembly. and in the joint assembly there is a majority of the members clected to both houses.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 232 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,859 | 2,876 | 03061873.txt | 1,169 | 213 |
430,000,247 | RD. Still. ought not the certificate to allege the fact just stated ?
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 233 | Mr. BAYA | Unknown | BAYA | Unknown | M | 2,877 | 2,878 | 03061873.txt | 69 | 13 |
430,000,248 | I was just going to come to that. The eertificate goes further than it need. Iu the firest place. it goes on to state that the two houses met separately and voted on the first day. and that the vote was spread on the record. and thenBoth houses of the said general assembly voted for a Scotar of the State of Alabama. to represent t e said State of Albsama in thi Congressof the Unitd States. which said vote was spread upon tle journals of each hone. and said oto having ben compared and conted be the general assembly of th State of Alabani in conveliiion assembled. on Wednesday. the 4th slay of Decciber. allo Dominil iS72. at twelve Oclock meridian. it was ascertainel and dechareit b saul convention of tice general assembly of the State of Alacma. that Ueorge E. Spencer. having received a majority of all the vates in bath toses. was duly 0leotodIf the word .4 both" there was changed to " each" there would be no question about it that there was an election. on the first day. but taking the word 11 both" there as evidently used in the sense of each." it mcaus that he received a majority of all the votes in each house. The word "both" is evidently used in that sense. and it requires a very sharp criticism to make it read anything else. But now read onwas duly elected Senator. Now. I take it for granted that my friends criticism is correct. that the word "both" does not mean each." that he simply had a enajority of all the votes. counting them in any body. If you treat this as a certificate of election on the second day. in joint convention. it is unquestionably good. and shows more votes than are necessary. because it shows that Mr. Spencer had a majority of the votes of both houses in joint convention on the second day. So. take it either way. the certificate is perfect. Mr. Presidest. this is all I have to say.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 234 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,879 | 2,918 | 03061873.txt | 1,838 | 342 |
430,000,249 | I move that the Senate do now adjourn. ["0. no."]
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 235 | Mr.ANTHONY | Unknown | ANTHONY | Unknown | M | 2,919 | 2,919 | 03061873.txt | 49 | 10 |
430,000,250 | and others. Let us finish this matter.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 236 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 2,920 | 2,920 | 03061873.txt | 38 | 7 |
430,000,251 | I withdraw the motion.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 237 | Mr. ANTHONY | Unknown | ANTHONY | Unknown | M | 2,921 | 2,921 | 03061873.txt | 22 | 4 |
430,000,252 | Mr. President. I hope that Senators will not insist upon taking the final question on this proceeding today. I am myself still in doubt as to what ought to be my vote upon the question of admitting Mr. Spencer to a seat. as having presented a primafacie case to the Senate. The differences as to tact which have been exhibited here. the differences as to precedent. the large number of preeedentsru nnig through many yars ofthehistory ofthe country. thathavo been presented. all seem to moto makoit necessary that Senators should have some little opportunity upon aquestiou reallyso grave as this to consider what has been laid before us today. and to examine the precedents which havobeen set. for ilis notatrivial question merely as to whether Mr. Spencer shall be permitted to take his seat while an inquiry is pending before the Committee on Privileges and Elections. but the question which is raised here is as to the capacity of a body of men ia the State of Alabama to assemble together and elect a Senator of the United States. and whether that capacity is one which we can recognize as being lawfufl. If there were no question about the legislature . if there were not two bodies claiming to be general assemblies of the State of Alabama. a very different case would be prosented here. The very grave question as to whether. under the law of 1866. the certificate of the lawful governor of the State shall be held to be such evidence of the lawfulness of the legislature described iu that certificate as the electing body of the Senator presenting himself. seems to me to require some little consideration. I know I certainly feel as if I required consideration in order to enable me to decide correctly upon this question. and I know that every Senator in this body desires to do in this matter simply what is right. I hope we shall iot be pressed to a vote at once.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 238 | Mr. FERRY. of Connecticut | Unknown | FERRY | Connecticut | M | 2,922 | 2,949 | 03061873.txt | 1,876 | 332 |
430,000,253 | I do not rise to argue the case. but to express the hope that it may lie over until tomorrow for further consideration. But before that is done I wish to make one statement of the fact as I understand it to be. and if I am wrong I shall desire to be corrected. I understand the facts of this case to be that the legislature which assembled at the Stateiouse was recogeized by the then governor of the State. Governor Lindsay. To that body he sent his annual message. so that that body has the recognition of the executive of that State. Furthermore. the senate of that body. containing. unquestionably as 1 nndcrstood. and undeniably. a majori ty of members ietitled to their seats. and who still hold their seats in t.. a lcgislaturo since both bodies have been merged. proceeded to canvas4 the votes for State offieers pursuant to the constitution of Alabama. and upon that canvass declared Mr. Lewis to be elected governor of that State. some other person to be elected lieutenantgovernor. and some other persois elected to other offices provided for by the constitution of that State. Those officers thus declared by that body to be elected wvern sworn in upon that canvass. If that was not a legal senate. then the votes for governor have never been legally canvassed in that Stato. and Governor Lewis has never been lawfully declared governor of Alabama. and so with the other officers. the votes for whom were canvassed at the same time. So that this very governor who gives a certificate to Mr. Spencer holds his office upon the theory that the senate of the Statehouse legislature. that legislature which elected MIr. Sykes. was the lawful senate of the State of Alabama. Well. sir. that is not all. That body passed a law which received the approval of the governor of the State. Governor Lindsay. and is a law of the State of Alabama. and thus. having exercised those formtions of a legislature. assembled at the proper place. received the message of the governor of the State. canvassed the votes for governor and other State officers. declared thu result of that canvass. ad received the oaths of those persons thus declared to be elected. After all that. and with the fact undenied. as I understand it. that the senate of that State legislature contained a majority of the legally elected senators of Alabama. it is now said that it is to be treated vs simply an illegal mob! Well. sir. what then took place I This very same Governor Lwis. who holds his office of governor by the calvass of that Statehouse legislature. turned around within a day or two after he had been thus declared to be elected. and had taken the oath of office. in pursuance of the canvass thus made. and repudiated the body that canvassed the votes and declared him elected. and reeognized a certain body of men. sittingiathe United States courthouse in tue city of Montgomery. as the legislature of that State. Now. sir. it doqe seem to me that in such a ease as that we are bound to send these credentials ous both sides to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. I repeat what I have said befiure. that there is lnt one legislature about wbose constitetionn existence there is rue question iimasoever. Then the certificate of time governor makes a primafacie ens.and entitles the person holding that crtifieate to a seat in this body. and if his election is contested. it numsi be contested after he has taken his seat. but wlhere there are to bodies. each claiming to be the legislature. that role cannot apply. I said when I was up before this morning that the only doubt I had in my mind was whether the certificate of Govermor Lewis is iot pniafaoi evidence that the body which elected Mr. Speuser is the legal legislature of that State. I adnit there is room for discussion upon that proposition. but it does seem to mo that. looking at the facts as we have them betore os. we can say that that primafade case does not exist. and that we are not bound to seat Mr. Sjeucer. I cannot say that these credentials. in view of the facts I have just stated to the Senate. and others that I might state. do make a primafacie case. I said in the argument on the resolution to admit Mr. GOLDTHWAITE that there was no case in the history of the country up to that time in which a Senator. holding a proper certificate of election by a proper legislature of a State entitled to representation in the Senate. had ben denied his seat primaface upon presenting his certificate. I believed that I was correct in that statement. though some of my friends told n I was rot. I still think that I was. lnt at tie same tume that I was of that opinion. the Senate was of a different opinion. for they kept Mr. GoLnnswAsTE out of his Beat tor cue year. or very nearly one year. althongh he bad a certificate of electon as erfect as any nmumher on the dloor. and although there was no question whatsoever that the legislature by which lio was elected was a legal. constitutional legislature. Then. sir. came the case of the Senator from. North Carolina. who also held a certificate of election from the acknowledged governor of the State of North Carolina. by rho legislature of North Crolina. there being but one. and no question as to its constitirtional validity. anid yet upon a memorial of Mr. Abbott. accenipaied with a transcript of legislative proceedings. just as hero we have a transcript of the proceedings in Alabama. Mr. RANSOM was kept out of his seat for months. So it will not do to say that the Senate. at least in late years. is ahsolutely and positively nnitted to the doctrine that under all circ istances the certificate of the governor is to be received asjrisrafacie evidence that the person is entitled to his seat. Mr. President. it seems to me that if ever there was a case that ought to go to the committee to be examined. this is one. and I pray Senators to lieware how they seat Mr. Spencer. because the decision they make in this case may come up in judgment againsb them whie they come to the case of Louisiana. It is very true there is a differeiie between the two cases. It is very true that Mr. Lewis is unquestionably governor of Alabama. and I think it is equally true that Mr. Kellogg is iot governor of Louisiana. That. I think. is the case in regard to these two States. and it makes a very broad difference indeed. but. iiverheless. this will be cited for the purpose of ilinittiug to a seat hero a poison who simply holds a certificate of Mr. Kcllog. of Louisiana. I think that all these eases. those from Louisiana and those front Alabama. should go to the committee and let the committee makea report.
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 239 | Mr. THURMAN | Unknown | THURMAN | Unknown | M | 2,950 | 3,052 | 03061873.txt | 6,619 | 1,191 |
430,000,254 | I do not understand the facts to be as stated by the Senator from Ohio. and I wish to have an understanding of what -ire the facts. I sniuppse if is l.rue that the legislature that mot in the Statehonse did cnivoes the votds for State officers. They were presided over by the old officers who were going out. but that. I think. is an immaterial thing altogether. It is not a question of the election of governor. or whether the votes were properly counted or not. All admit that Governor Lewis is governor of Alabama. It was so palpable that a majority of the legislatutre had met in another place. that the governor %as bound to recognize them. and did recognize them. as the legislature. and they proceeded to elect Mr. Spencer. There was a majority of all the members elected to each house present in each house and voting at the time. That is undoubtedly the fact. That subsequently they came together with a portion of those who pretended to act in that body which elected Mr. Sykes. and that some of then left by the unanimous vote of all concerned. leaving those who elected Mr. Spencer a majority in each house. Retaiining the officers that had been elected by themi does iiot affect the case. except to show conelusively that they inveetigated the .facts. and that. not only did the body that elected Mr. Spencetr decide it. but the other body also decided it by going in and accepting the situation. The validity of that body has been decided by mime supreme court of the State. and there is a mejority today in that legislature who voted for ir. Spencer. so that the action of the State is perfectly conclusive. Here were two bodies of men. each claiming to be the legislature. the governor recognizing one and nobody recognizing the other. The body not recognized by the governor. bing in the minority. went into the other body. fused with it. and remained in the minority. and are in the minority today. They thenselves. by going in with the others. adrmit that the majority were right. and its action becomes the nauinos action of the legislature. of all copeorued. Its validity was upheld by the supreme court of the State. I repeat tht I at informed that the legislawure which is in session today contains a majority of men who voted for Dir. Spencer. notwithstanding there have been three deaths. The minority went
| S | "1873-03-06T00:00:00" | 240 | Mr. STEWART | Unknown | STEWART | Unknown | M | 3,053 | 3,087 | 03061873.txt | 2,331 | 415 |
430,000,255 | I sk the Senator from Nevada if that is not just as broad as it is long - whether the courthouse legislature. by fusing with the Statehouse legislatnre. did not acknowledge the validity of the latter ?
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 1 | Mr. CASSERLY | Unknown | CASSERLY | Unknown | M | 13 | 16 | 03071873.txt | 201 | 37 |
430,000,256 | No. it is longer than it is broad. because there were more of the legislature who elected Mr. Spencer than of the other. the other went into the minority. and it is the majority that has a right to elect. and not the minority. They preserved the same organizationthe same officers. they had the majority. showing that they had the right to act. and their action is the action now of all. They have all come to the conclusion that the body that elected Mr. Spencer was the right one. and they are working there with them. The essence of the thing is that the majority of the legislature elected Mr. Spencer. and the fact that a minority attempted to electanother man shows that they were attempting to disorganize. The governor recognized the majority. and the minority attempted to elect a man. but subsequently the minority were bound to recognize the majority. and did so. and it does not look very well to ask that the action of the minority that attempted to elect a Senator should be put ahead of the action of the majority. That is the fact.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 2 | Mr. STEWART | Unknown | STEWART | Unknown | M | 17 | 32 | 03071873.txt | 1,047 | 190 |
430,000,257 | Mr. President. it is very evident that this matter ought to be referred to some committee. a special committee or the standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. What are the facts presented in this ease I The legislature of the State of Alabama consists of one hundred members of the lower house and thirtythree members of the senate. The legislaturo which elected Mr. Sykes had nineteen senators and fiftyfour members of the house whenit organized. That legislature was recognized by Governor Lindsay. then the governor of Alabama. Each house had a lawful quorum. organized under the laws of the State. and was recognized by Governor Lindsay. then the acknowledged governor of Altbama. Thee organized. it proceeded to count the votes. and declared the election of Governor Lewis. Governor Lewis. by accepting the office thus conferred upon him. recognized the legal existence of that as the legal legislature of Alabama. That legislature proceeded to count the votes for the State officers that now hold. and are today holding. their offices by virtue of an election at the hands of the very legislature that elected Mr. Sykes. the state treasurer. the auditor. and the other officers. They enacted general public laws that are yet in existence. whereas the body. claiming to be a legislative body. which elected Mr. Spencer was constituted of me eleven of whom held no certificate of electioi. and who have been ruled out by thepresent fusion legislature as men who never were entitled to sit in any legislative body. Two of the seuator who assisted ii the election of Mr. Spencer are not members of the present legislature because they hold no certiticate of election. and. under the advice of the AttorneyGeneral of the United States. they were declared wanting in qualifications and do nt today constitute part of the senate of the State of Alabama. And such is the fact. I am informed. in regard to members of the lower house who assisted in the election of Mr. Spencer. With such a state of facts staring us in the face we are bound to take historical notice of them. We know the factwe cannot plead ignorance of the factthat those two legislative bodies have been fused. and that the members holding certificates of election now constitate the true legislature. and that after excluding the men who held no certificates there never was a quorum in the legislature that elected Mr. Spencer. Personally. I have no unkind feelings toward Mr. Spencer. his conduct has been courteous and gentlemanly. If I were to decide this question upon individual merits. being acquainted with Mr. Spencer and not with Mr. Sykes. I should naturally be inclined to go in favor of the man with whom my relations have always been friendly and kind. but looking at this as a question affecting the interests of the people of Alabama. as a question affecting the rights of the people of this whole country. (because if Mr. Spencer is not legally entitled to cast his vote here be has no right to come in and by his vote nullify the votes of gentlemen who are entitled to seats in this body and to vote upon the public laws of this country.) I must act on it according to my judgment of the law and the facts. And now with this stat" of facts staring us in the face. how can we justify ourselves before the world. how can we justify ourselves before the people of this country in seating in our body a gentleman when the facts of the case clearly show that the legislative body which conferred upon him an election was wholly illegal. has gone out of existence. and has never been recognized as a legislative body dejure by even Governor Lewis or anybody else ? These facts are patent . the country knows them . and with the precedent which has been referred to where gentlemen differing in their polities from the majority on this floor have been denied the right. on the presentatiou of certificates properly signed by governors. to be sworn in until the matter was passed upon by the proper committee. if the majority of this body. having the power to do it. admit Mr. Spencer in violation of the precedents and of the rules which they established in reference to political opponents. with the protest of the mlnority on this floor against it. what will be the juilgment ? It will be that there is a determination. right or wrong. to continue the majority of this Senate by sating gentlemen who have no claims to seats. or at least seating them before their claims have been investigated. and that against the protest of gentlemen here who believe they are not entitled to have seats in this body. I hope that the Senate. in justice to its own reputation. in justice to the people of Alabamain justice to the people of this whole country. will fail to seat as a member of this body Mr. Spencer or Mr. Anybody else entil. by the judgment of the Senate. after investigation. be has been declared legally entitled to his seat. As a member of this body I cannot consent that Mr. Spencer. for whom I have a kindly feeling. shall take his seat in this chamber under this state of facts. until some competent committee of this House have pronounced upon his case.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 3 | Mr. SAULSBURY | Unknown | SAULSBURY | Unknown | M | 33 | 113 | 03071873.txt | 5,148 | 903 |
430,000,258 | Mr. President-
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 4 | Mr. CASSERLY | Unknown | CASSERLY | Unknown | M | 114 | 114 | 03071873.txt | 14 | 2 |
430,000,259 | Will the Senator give way for a moment?
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 5 | Mr. CAMERON | Unknown | CAMERON | Unknown | M | 115 | 115 | 03071873.txt | 39 | 8 |
430,000,260 | Certainly.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 6 | Mr. CASSERLY | Unknown | CASSERLY | Unknown | M | 116 | 116 | 03071873.txt | 10 | 1 |
430,000,261 | I tried a little while ago to get an executive session. It is too late for that now. and therefore I move that the Senate adjourn.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 7 | Mr. CAMERON | Unknown | CAMERON | Unknown | M | 117 | 119 | 03071873.txt | 130 | 26 |
430,000,262 | Will the gentleman withdraw that motion for a moment? ["No."]
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 8 | Mr. GOLDTHWAITE | Unknown | GOLDTHWAITE | Unknown | M | 120 | 121 | 03071873.txt | 61 | 10 |
430,000,263 | I offer the following resolution. and ask for its present consideration: BCesotted. That Rev. J. P. Newman. D. D.. be. and he is hereby. appointed Chaplain to the teneto. The resolution was considered by unanimous consent and agreed to.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 9 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 131 | 135 | 03071873.txt | 236 | 39 |
430,000,264 | I ask to have the following order made: Ordered. That John Lamb have leave to withdraw his petition sad papers from the files of the Senate.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 10 | Mr. WINDOM | Unknown | WINDOM | Unknown | M | 146 | 148 | 03071873.txt | 140 | 26 |
430,000,265 | I think there was an adverse report in that case.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 11 | Mr. SCOTT | Unknown | SCOTT | Unknown | M | 149 | 149 | 03071873.txt | 49 | 10 |
430,000,266 | Then I suggest that copies of the papers bo left.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 12 | Mr. BUCKINGEAM | Unknown | BUCKINGEAM | Unknown | M | 150 | 151 | 03071873.txt | 49 | 10 |
430,000,267 | There is no objection to leaving copies.
| None | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 13 | Mr. WINDOM | Unknown | WINDOM | Unknown | M | 152 | 152 | 03071873.txt | 40 | 7 |
430,000,268 | That is the usual order. The order will be made with that modification.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 14 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 153 | 154 | 03071873.txt | 71 | 13 |
430,000,269 | Very well.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 15 | Mr. WINDOM | Unknown | WINDOM | Unknown | M | 155 | 155 | 03071873.txt | 10 | 2 |
430,000,270 | If there be no farther Senate resolutions to be offered. the resolution submitted yesterday by the Senator from Indiana. and laid on the table. wlt now be called u.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 16 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 157 | 159 | 03071873.txt | 164 | 29 |
430,000,271 | I will not ask to have that resolution taken up this morning.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 17 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 160 | 161 | 03071873.txt | 61 | 12 |
430,000,272 | Does not the unfinished business of yesterday come up nowI
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 18 | Mr. HOWE | Unknown | HOWE | Unknown | M | 162 | 163 | 03071873.txt | 58 | 10 |
430,000,273 | During the morning hour morning business is first in order.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 19 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 164 | 165 | 03071873.txt | 59 | 10 |
430,000,274 | Is there a morning hour during an executive sessiou ?
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 20 | Mr. HOWE | Unknown | HOWE | Unknown | M | 166 | 166 | 03071873.txt | 53 | 10 |
430,000,275 | The hair believes that in an executive session of the Senate petitions and Senate resolutions would be first in order in the morning hour.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 21 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 167 | 169 | 03071873.txt | 138 | 24 |
430,000,276 | I did not suppose that anything in the nature of legislative business could be transacted during a merely executive session of the Senate. I have no sort of objection. if there are petitions o resolutions to be submitted.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 22 | Mr. HOWE | Unknown | HOWE | Unknown | M | 170 | 173 | 03071873.txt | 221 | 38 |
430,000,277 | The Chair will inform the Senator from Wisconsin that it would not be in order at an executive session for bills to be introduced or acted upon. bat petitions and Senate resoluthons are in order. This is an open session of the Senate.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 23 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 174 | 177 | 03071873.txt | 234 | 43 |
430,000,278 | Mr. President. I rise for the purpose of presenting the credentials of the Senator from New York. which have now been received. I ask that they be read. The chief clerk read the credentials of Hior. Itoscoi CONI IN0. chosen by the legislature of New York a Senator from that State for the term beginning March 4. 1873. and they were ordered to be filed.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 24 | Mr. IHAMLIN | Unknown | IHAMLIN | Unknown | M | 179 | 194 | 03071873.txt | 353 | 65 |
430,000,279 | If there be no Senate resolutions. the Senate will resume the consideration of the motion of the Senator from Delaware to postpone the question of administerg the oath of office to Mr. Spencer as Senatorelect from Alabama.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 25 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 196 | 199 | 03071873.txt | 222 | 37 |
430,000,280 | That motion was to postpone until tomorrow. I think.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 26 | Mr. HOWE | Unknown | HOWE | Unknown | M | 200 | 200 | 03071873.txt | 52 | 9 |
430,000,281 | The Senator is right. The papers which the Senate had sent to the printer have not yet been returned. that is to say. the entire bulk of papers sent. One portion of the papers sent. or. rather. one of the papers included in those sent. was the ertificate of election of Mr. Sykesy signed by the officers of the two houses of the Alabara legislatore. That came back. The original paper is now here on the table of the Clerk . but the uther papers in the case. the exhibits. &c.. have not yet been returned. so that the reason for .the postponement. I Conceive. still exists.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 27 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 201 | 209 | 03071873.txt | 573 | 107 |
430,000,282 | Mr. President. considering that motion still before the Senate. I will subimit a very few remarks upon it in addition to what I said yesterday. But I must say. to begin with. that since yesterday I have changed front. Yesterday I was in favor of the motion to postpone. ani so said. for the reasson that I had not had time to read what as submitted to the Senate by that citizen of Alabama who appears here against the right of Mr. Spencer. I was in favor of postponement because I wanted anopportnnity to hear what was alleged against the right of Mr. Spencer. Today I do not want any further postponement. b&ause Ihave had an opportnnity to read the counterallegations. Therefore. I am prepared today. as I was not yesterday. to act upon the application of these contestants for a seat in the Senate. But uron the other question on which Ieommented somewhat yesterday have not changed front. I still think. as I thought yesterday. that when an issue is raised upon the right of any applicant to a seat here. that issue should be heard and should be determined by the Senate. not after. but before. yon decide it. not after. but beoro. the Senate awards the seat. That was wybat I suggested yesterday. A nights reflection has rather cnfirmed thain shaken that view. I was a little surprised yesterday to find that it was a view entertained by no single person in the Senate. so far us I could discover. except myself I think there was a very general admission on the part of the Senate that whenever a mait came here with what was called a primafaecie title. with some exceptions. which different Senators stated differently. that priniafacie title should be respected. and the holder of it should be admitted to a seat. and then the Senate should take up the question. aud try and determine it. whether that was a good or a false title. No two Senatoraseemed to bavethe same view as to tholimitations which should he imposed upon this rule. My distinguished frienl from Missouri [Mr. Scrluiz] thought the primafaecie title should be respected by the Senate unless there were grave reasons for distrusting it. If there were grave reasons for distrnsting it then we shoold sot it aside and try the truth of the case before we decided it. 1 did not quite like that limitation. because it seemed to me a little too indefinite. Itdid not seem to amnount to a limitation at all. Of courso. each Senator niust judge for himself whet was the gravity of the reasons for questioning this certificate. Ifniy friend thinksin anygiven case there are grave reasons for questioning the authenticity of a certificate. that authorizes him to disregard the certificate. If I think. in the same case. that the reasons are tri.ial. that authorizes me to respect the certificate. to venerate the certificate. The Senator from Ohio. whom I do net see in his seat. [Mr. TreRMAN.] hlid a somewhat different rule. and a simpler one. If I understood his statement of it. it amounted to about this: that the Senate was bound to respect the certificate ota governor ard the seal of the State when it was held by Senator Goarra1nwAire. but was not under the slightest obligation to respect it when it was held by Senator Spencer. That rule has the advantage of extreme simplicity. it is quits intelligible. there is no need of anyones mistaking it. In that respect it. has the advantage. I think. of the rule suggested by the Senator from Missouri. But I do not quite like either of them. My friend from New Jersey had still another rule. even plainer. simpler. than that urged by the Senator from Ohio. 1is rule is that you should respect the certificate in all cases. Whoever briiigs hero a certificate of a governoroetintemigned by the secretary of state. and hearing upon its face the seal of the State. saying that be has been chosen by the State as a member of this body. that man. no matter what can be said to the contrary. must be allowed to step to your chair. sir. and to take upon himself the oath of a Senator. to take his seat among us. the Senators. to take upon himself the obligations of a Senator. though he may in fact never have had a vote thou..h in fact his name may never have been mentioned in any legislative body having aulthorityto choose a Senator. If he has got that piece ofpaper. we must take off our hats to the palper. we must clothe him with the prerogatives of a Senafor for the time being. and lot him wear t. oso prerogatives until the Senate has tril thu qiecstion of the validity of that certificate. lNow. Mr. Prident. I do not like that role. The Senator from New Jersey urged. that ).onr statute imposed that rule upon us. I think he is mistaken in his view of the statute. The statute does not say any such thing. It does not declare what is the effect of that certifieate. The statute simply says that whoever comes here claiming a Senators seat should bring with him such evidence of his right. But I understand it to be merely directory. not mandatory at all. and I think the usage of the Senate sanctions that construction of the statute. I think the Senator from Nebraska made a just commeutary upon that rule. If the statute is mandatory. ifit does mean to tell us that he who would have a seat here must bring such evideuce. and whoever brings such evidence must be allowed to take his seat for the time beingif the statute means that. then the Senate acted in direct violation of the statute when. for a year. or something like a year. it kept the Senator from Alabama out of his seat. who had jnst such a certificate. and it acted in just as palpable violation of that statute when. only a few days since. it called to your desk and administered the oath to my distinguished friend. the Senator from New York. [Mr. O0oxKLING.] who had not a scrap of paper about him. unless it was banknomte paper. or something of that sort. Mr. President. my view is different from any of these. I say once more I think the time to try this question of title is whl it is put in issue. try it ahvays before you award the seat. and not afterward. I do not like the idea of according a seat to a man. and then going Oni to try whether he has a right to it or not. It is not quite so bad as hanging a man and then trying him. but. in principle. it seems to me just as illogical and jest as unreasonable. But when shall you eonsider the title put in issue ? I think it is put in issue whenever it is so disputed as that you and I do not know what the truth about it is. No matter what sort of evidence a man brings here. or what the form. of the evidence is. if you know a State having authority to choose a Senator has sent him here. that is evidence enough for you to act upon . it is evidence enough for me to act upon. and we have never hesitated to act upon it. it is satisfsctory. On the other hand. no matter what may be the form of evidence brought here by an applicant for a seat. if you do not believe that that form of evidence is accorded to him by a State. or if you doubt upon the point. then I think you ought to stop and be informed before you accord him the seat. Mr. President. I said that since the adjournment I had looked lute this memorial which is laid upon our tables. I may be mistaken about it. but my conclusion upon reading this memorial is. that it does not assign the slightest reason in the world why Mr. Spencer should not take his seat here. It does not amount to an allegation that Mr. Spencer is not elected. It does not amount to aii affirmation that the memorialist is elected. What does it say I In two sentences. if I understand it. it says simply this: that a body of men equal in number to a quoram of the Alabama legislature. each ono of whom held a certificate of election. assembled one day and in one place. and east their ballots for the menorialist. It does notsay that those cortilieatee were rightfully accorded to the holders. On the con. trary. as I understand it. it admits that a portion of those certificates. absolutely necessary to make up a quorum of the legislature. were stolen. or what is equivalent to that. obtained wvitbout. I will not say the color of right. because. perhaps. it was the color of right. but it was so extremely taint a color that whoever reads the papers will hardly catch its hue. and that is what I understand to be the case urged here against him who holds the certificate. But now. in view of this case. I think the attitude of Senators who participated in the debate yesterday was a little peculiar. Here is a citizen of Alabama coming here with a regular certificate. and a portion of the Senate say. "Pay respect to that certificate . no matter what is behind it. give him his seat.." and another portion of the Senate say. "No. it will not do to accord that seat upon a snere certificate. for here is another mani who comes from Alabama aud says the certificate was not rightly accorded to its holder." lint. when you go back to see out of what this controversy arose. we find that that committee who sent the memorialist here was a committee standing upon just this certificate. and that the other body which assumed to be the logislatilre of Alabama. and which seit Mr. Speucer here and obtained for him the certificate which he holds. were acting. a portion of them. without such i certificate. If. then. this certificate. this prinafacle case. is entitled to all that venieratien which my friend front New Jersey and my friend froma ludinua urge. why were not those men in Montgomery. who hold just such papers. the legisltture of Alabama 7 You say they did not represent the people of their respective districts. Well. I think that was a very good reason . but they had the certificates. On the contrary. I want to say to my frieids on the other side of the chamber. if certificates are good for the time being. if the people of Alabama ought to havo respect for that Mfoutgomery committee simply because they held the certificates of the secretary of state. if these certitcates. these primnafacie cases. are entitled to such respect and snch veneration. what have they to say against the right of Mi.. Spuier to take his seat here today. or yesterday I He has the certificate in due aud ample forn.. Mr. President. I think if I had been a member of the Alabama legislature I should not have paid any more respect to those ecnrtieates than was paid to them by the government of the State. and I do not pay such implicit respect to the nertilicato held by Mr. Spencer. presented at your desk. as sonic of my friends think ought to be paid to it. I respect it as a prfivafaeie title. if you like that xpressiou. I respect it because it is the best title here urged. and am willing to veto upon it. because I do not. find anything urged in the memorial which invalidates that certificate.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 28 | Mr. HOWE | Unknown | HOWE | Unknown | M | 210 | 386 | 03071873.txt | 10,785 | 1,986 |
430,000,283 | Mr. President. I ask permission to offer the following resolution. to lie on the table : Rescird. That on Tuesday. March 11. 1873. at two oleek p. ra.. the President of the Senate adjourn the Senate ai die.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 29 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 388 | 391 | 03071873.txt | 206 | 38 |
430,000,284 | I object to the consideration of the resolution today.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 30 | Mr. MORTON | Unknown | MORTON | Unknown | M | 392 | 393 | 03071873.txt | 54 | 9 |
430,000,285 | Ido not ask that it beconsidered today. I offer it to lie on the table.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 31 | Mir. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 394 | 395 | 03071873.txt | 71 | 15 |
430,000,286 | I offer the following resolution. and ask for its present consideration : Resoled. That the President be reqlnested. if not ineajpatible with the public interest. to famish the Senate with th correspondence between the Attorney. General of the United States and certain parties in the State of Alabama. in rola. tion to the fasien of the two bodies there eisting. each claiiing to bo the legislature of said State.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 32 | Mr. COOPER | Unknown | COOPER | Unknown | M | 397 | 403 | 03071873.txt | 414 | 69 |
430,000,287 | I have no objection to the resolution. excepting this: I object to it if its passage is to be madean argument for deferring action upon the question new pending until all this correspliuleuce is senlb hero and printed. I do not believe iyself that our duty or the public interest requires this session of the Senate to continue a great while . and I mnust object to anything which tends unnecessarily to prolong it. Therefore. I suggest that the resolution lie over.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 33 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 404 | 411 | 03071873.txt | 466 | 82 |
430,000,288 | Mr. President. I oftered the resolution at this time to avoid the very thing suggested by the Senator from New York. to obtain the correspondence as soon as possible. so that we might have all the light upon this question which can be shed upon it. It was with no intention to delay. but with the earnest desire to arrive at the facts connected with the whole matter.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 34 | Mr. COOPER | Unknown | COOPER | Unknown | M | 412 | 417 | 03071873.txt | 367 | 68 |
430,000,289 | I beg to say to my friend that. if he wants the correspondence tot seo upon any question other than this. it will be just as well for him to have the resolution passed at n later day of this session. because the information will come in the recess and cannot be utilized until the next session of Congress. If he wants it. in order that we may wait to receive it and have it printed at this session before we act on this case. then I object to it.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 35 | Mr. CONIRING | Unknown | CONIRING | Unknown | M | 418 | 424 | 03071873.txt | 447 | 90 |
430,000,290 | I have no use for it in the world except upon this case
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 36 | Mr. COOPER | Unknown | COOPER | Unknown | M | 425 | 426 | 03071873.txt | 55 | 13 |
430,000,291 | Then I object to it. Lot the resolution lie over.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 37 | Mr. CONKLING | Unknown | CONKLING | Unknown | M | 427 | 427 | 03071873.txt | 49 | 10 |
430,000,292 | The Senator from Now York objects to the present consideration of the resolution. and it will lie over.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 38 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 428 | 429 | 03071873.txt | 103 | 18 |
430,000,293 | The Chair is informed that a portion of them have been returned from the printingoffice. but not the whole.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 39 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 434 | 435 | 03071873.txt | 107 | 19 |
430,000,294 | Can we be informed when the remaining papers will probably be before the Senatet
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 40 | Mr. GOLDTIWAITE | Unknown | GOLDTIWAITE | Unknown | M | 436 | 437 | 03071873.txt | 80 | 14 |
430,000,295 | The Chair is informed that they will be here on Satnrday. tomorrow morning
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 41 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 438 | 439 | 03071873.txt | 74 | 13 |
430,000,296 | I should very much prefer to haveall the papers before the Senate in this case. in order that this body may determine. as it will have to do. the effect of the certificate which has beau already offered and laid on the table by Mr. Spencer as primafacis evidence of his title to a seat. What I want the other papers for is ii order that the Seuato may consider whether those papers. (giving to the certificate the fall effect which is claimed for it as being primaface evidence of Air. Spencers right.) upon a full consideration of the other evidence which will ho beoro the Senate. are not sufficient to destroy the presumption arising from the certificate. I will. therefore. postpone any remarks of my own until those papers are before the Senate.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 42 | Mr. GOLDTHWAITE | Unknown | GOLDTHWAITE | Unknown | M | 440 | 451 | 03071873.txt | 750 | 134 |
430,000,297 | The question now is on the motion made by the Senator from Delawaxe. to postpone the consideration of the suljeet until tomorrow.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 43 | The VICE-PRESIDENT | Unknown | Unknown | Unknown | Special | 452 | 454 | 03071873.txt | 129 | 22 |
430,000,298 | Until the papers referred to are before the Senate in the Sykes ease. which will be tomorrow. as we are informed. I will merely remiark. in regard to what fell from the honorable Senator froti Wisconsin. [Mr. HowI.] who has been discussing this matter this morning. that his remarks must have satisfied the Sonate that it is essential. before they can pass judgment on this ease. that the facts should be before them. They now have a part of the case. but not the whole. They have what we admit to be a primafacie case . but whether that first face of these proceedings is not to lie changed by subsequent and other matter is a question for them to consider. They cannot look at this case in part. They cannot look at this case in fraginets. They must take it as a whole. They must construe and considertheirduty tnder th law by the light of all the facts. and until the exhibit and the papers connected with the case of Mr. Sykes are before the Senate. they will not have that information which will prevut cavil as to facts. There was yesterday a challenge. to sone facts which I ttate] upon information. thrown out by the Senator from Nevada. who. ill very short terms. arraigned the facts I stated is inaccurate. His informant. one of the contesting parties to the cause. was giving hins verbal information. On the other hand. there were Parties in the chamber giving ins information. Now. a great many of the facts alleged on either side are to be settled by the record. and that record will be contained in a public document which will be on our tables tomorrow morning. For that reason I ask a postponement. with no" desire to dolay the decision of the Senate one instant of time after there shall have been an opportunity for proper discussion. So far front being a waste of time. this will be the wisest bestowal of time. We cannot too carefully consider these questions of a right to a seat in this body. with all its high powers and equal responsibilities. It is not simply a question concerning the individual who claims a seat. to him the effect is most trivial as compared with the result on the rights of tle people of his State and the rights of the people of all the other States. It must not be hurried through. there must be deliberation upon it . and if the matter is to go over until toiorrow. I shall defer some remarks that I proposed to mad. in reply to the criticisms of the Senator from Indiana upon the act of Congress. I will defer them until the ease shall come fully before the Senate. They will not be of great length. My motion before the Senate is to postpone this case until tomorrow morning. and I ask that the question be pat on it.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 44 | Mr. BAYARD | Unknown | BAYARD | Unknown | M | 455 | 496 | 03071873.txt | 2,668 | 493 |
430,000,299 | Before the vote is taken I wish to correct an error into which I fell yesterday from not having in my hand tbhoauthentie informitation now before mc. I said yesterday. in the course of the remarks which I submitted. that the senate of Alabamathe undeniable. lawful senate of Alabamahad counted the votes. showing Governor Lewis to be elected. I find. upon looking at the eonstitutien of that State. and the facts in this case. that it is not the senate that counts the vote. but it is counted inthe presence of both houses. and that the vote was counted in the presence of both houses. there being nineteen senators present. which was a majority of the senate. that body consisting of thirtythree. and there being fiftythree mainbers of the house of representatives present. which was n quorum. that body conisting of one hundred members. so that reallytho case is strotger than I supposed it to be yesterday. The votes were counted inl the presence of it majority of the two houses. in strict pursuance of the constitution of the Slate of Alabama. and Mr. Lewis was doclared to be elected governor. and another gentlenan. whose name I do not at this moment recollect. was declared to be elected lieutenantgovernor * and epon that canvass and declaration of the votes made in the legislature by which Mr. Sykes was afterward elected. Governor Lewis teoh his seat as governor of Alabama. and the other gentleman took his seat as presiding officer of the senate. as the lieutenantgovernor of that State.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 45 | Mr. TH UMAN | TH | UMAN | Unknown | M | 497 | 519 | 03071873.txt | 1,501 | 258 |
430,000,300 | After all that lias been said. it may be that I ought not to add a word to this debate. yet. upon a question like tiis. of so much momeut in every view. it is perhaps the duty of each member not to \withhol any contribution to the just solution of it which ho thinks hecan make. Ihavo listenedto thodebato with great attention. and I have earnestly considered the whole subject. It is a very important one. We have here two claimatts for the vacant place of Senator for the State of Alabama. One of them. lately a Senator here from that State. relies upon a certificate of the governor of the State. certifying to an election by one body claiting to be the legislature of the State. The other claimant is here relying upon the certificate of another body claiming to be the legislature of tle State. The question to be decided is one of interest. undoubtedly. to the claimants themselves. bat it has an importance far beyoudthat. becauseit involves the rightof the State of Alabamuto be represented in the Senate rightly tinder her own cotsstitution and laws and the Constitution and laws of the United States. Therefore I have listened with the atmost attention to everything that was said on either side. I have given to all that I heard and all that I could gather elsewhere the most studious and inipartial consideration. I have fiually irrived at a solution which is satisfactory. at least. to myself. It is the more satisfactory that it enables me for the present. and for the purpose of the vote which I shall give at the present stage of the matter. to put aside all the questions of law or of fact. either as to the manner in which the governor of the State received his title to his office. or as to the legality of the two rival organizations. each claiming to be the legislature of Alabama. It seems to me entirely idle to say that we hav6 now within our reach any sufficient incans for determining the qestioni of the legality of the two rival legislatures. Yet that question is the esential question in this case. The certificate of the governor is nothing but a form. the seal of the State is nothing but a form. The substantial thing. bhe essential tihing. and the only substantial and essential thing about the whole matter. is the election of the Senator for Alabama. Whether that election was good. or good for nothing. depends upon the question whether it was an electioi made by a lawful legislature. a legislature competent to elect. Yet this. which is the very question upot which everything turns. happefts to be one as to which we are wholly destitute of the nmans for arriving it a just judgment. Now. sir for the pupose of what I have to saiy I shall assume that the certificate of the governor of Alabarna. upon which Mr. Spencer relies. is sufflicient is forti. aund that Mr. Lewis. who gave it. was the lawful governor of the State. I shall also assume. for the same putpose. that such a certificate makes a primafacie case in favor of its holder. Mr. Spencer. That prioafaie case. however. is a mere prosiimption of fact. It is not a conciusive presumption in any degree whatever. It is liable at all times to be rebutted by contrary prosniption. Down to this point it seems to me that there is no controversy between me and anybody who has yet spoken on the subject. Any division of opinion to arise must be as to what I am to say next. The question is. have we here the contrary presumptions to rebutI do not say to destroy. but for the time being to rebutthe presumption of arimafacie ease in favor of Mr. Spsncerarising upon the face of the governors certificate ? I think we have. I freely admit that it is not every idle rumor or loose allegation. it is not every charge of irrelevant matter. or of relevant matter made by irresponsible parties. which should be entertained here as against the certificate of the governor of a State showing the election of a Senator. It must be something which. in its nature andin tie character of those making it. is sufficiently definite and grave to put the Senate upon inquiry. to authorize it. nay. to oblige it. to institute an examination. so that before it acts it may be satisfied both as to the facts and the law. Have we not just such a case here ? Who willsay that. upon these conflicting credentials. the certificate of thp governor of Alabama on the one hand. and the certificate of the body claiming to he. and by many believed to be. the lawful legislature of the State on the other hand. we have not enough. and more than enough. to put the Senate upon inquiry . to oblige it to examine before it acts. to oblige it to refer this case to a proper committee to ascertain and report the facts and the law? That cannot be denied. I think that is the proper test of when the primsfacie presumption in favor of the governors certificate must be held to be suspended until the Senate can inquire and satisfy itself as to the judgment to be rendered. and that. sir. seems to me to be the principle which reconciles the recent decisions at least. by this House. in similar cases. In the ease of the Senator from Alabama. now in his seat. [Mr. GornTHwAiTE.] be held the certificate of an officer admitted to be the governor. showing an election by a legislature which was admitted all around to be th lawful legislature. and the only legislature. in the State of Alabama. and he was here the sole claimant. without any opposition or contest as to his title. Yet. sir. upon a protest. or something in that nature. sent here. purporting to be signed by members of the legislature of Alabama. not the act in any sense of the legislature itself. his credlentials were referred to a committee. and lie himself was kept out of his seat. and the State of Alabama was deprived of her full representation in this body for ten or twelve months. That must have been upon the idea that the primafacie case made by the governors certificate was for the time being suspended by the allegations on the other side. I think the Senate went very far indeed. too far. in that case. I voted against the reference . I voted against the exclusion of the Senator from Alabama from his seat in this body. That case was the very strongest of all the recent precedents in this body that can be cited. Another case was the case of the election of the Senator from Texas. He was here with a regular certificate of the governor of the State. showing an election by the legislature of the State. The Senate allowed theprimafaecie presumptiou arising upon that certificate to be overcome by a telegram from the governor of the State that a void paper in the hands of General Reynolds had notheen signed by him through inadvertence. and that he meant to issue to hint the sarae hind of certificate in ovryrespect that he had previously issued to Mr. HAMILTON. The next and latest case was the case of the Senator from North Carolina. [Mr. R1mso.] He came here with the certificate of ths overnor of the State. certifying to an election by the legislature of ITorth Carolina. There was no controversy as to the title of the governor. none as to the power of the legislature. and yet do we not all remember that his case was referred to a committee. where it remained a long time? It was not until after the lase of many. many weeks that he was admitted to his seat. In the last two cases. as in the first case. the Senate decided that theprimafacie presumption arising from a certificate of the admitted governor. regular and sufficient in form. should be overcome in the one ease by a telegram from the governor. or purporting to be frem hima most dangerous precedent. as it seems to meand in the other case by a muere contest promoted by an antagonist backed by something in the form of remonstrance or protest irem a portion of the members of the legislature of North Carolina. In this case we have every element that existed in any of the contests ofwhich I have just spoken in which the Senate uniformly adopted the course of a reference to a committee to inquire and report. We not only have every element that was there. but we have more. We have the soleun certificate of a body purporting to be the general assembly of the State of Alabama. declaring the election of another person than the person who holds the governors certificate. I speak. of course. of Mr. Sykes. The question is. shall a state of facts in the present ease much more potent to overcome the technical presumption of the governors certificate. than those which in the three eases I have cited were held sufficient by the Senate to hang up the governors certificate for weeks and months in our committee. be held insufficient now to send the present case to a committee for examination That is the question for the Senate to decide. whether the rule works but one way. We shall not adequately weigh the factt that cut down the primafacic case made by the governors certificate unless wa keep in mind the circumstances that surronnd the ease. Alabama was in a semirevolutionary condition at the time of the alleged election of Mr. Spencer. She had two legislatures. and a governor whotook his title fron one legislature. and then took sides with the other. The case before us is not to be tried by ordinary rules. It is anomalous. To apply to it the ordinary rules of interpretation of statuts and certificates would be a solecism. or worse. The only safety is in remitting both claimants to our committee for its inquiry and report. There is nothing in the idea that has een so mach insisted upon by the Senator from Now York. and lbelieve by the Senator from Indiana. [Mr. MowToic.] that Mr. Sykes is here as a mere "nmemorialist." not as a Senator. Why. sir. is not such talk the worst wordcatching? Is it not the merest hairsplitting that ever was ? Mr. Sykes is here claiming to be a Senator from the State of Alabama. He presents his memorial. setting forth his credentials from the Alabama legislature with the other grounds upon which he claims the seat. in respectful and proper terms. lIe is not to be deprived of his right to a seat in this body because be has resorted to an unusual mode of asserting it. It is unusual. doubtless. but it is by no means an nasatisfectory mode. On the contrary. it has relieved some of us at least of a good deal of labor in ascertaining the grounds on which he relies. that be has taken the pains to spread them so fully before us. A State is not to lose her Senator in this body because one. two. or three Senators. however able and eminent. seek to cry him down as a "memorialist." The right of every citizen. the humblest as well as the highest. to address the Senate of the United States by memorial in deliose of his rights. or in the assertion of the rights of others. is absolute and indefeasible. Itis too substantial a thing to be frittered away by a phrase in the mouth of any Senator. On these views I rest my vote. Here is a ease of so much gravity and difficulty. in which no Senator knows the essential facts. as to put the Senate upon inquiry. to call for a reference and investigation by a cenmittee. It is. therefore. a case sufficient to overcome theprimafaeic presumption of the certificate of the governor. therefore I shall vote for the umtion to refer to a committee. or I shall vote for a postponement until tomorrow. to give us all. myself included. further time for the examination necessary to enable us to form a judgment. This is the safe course. It casts no imputation on either claintant. It is our only security against doing a wrong to oitler. and. what is more vital. to the State of Alabama. and to the Senate as a part of the Congress of the United States." There is nothing in the practice of the House of Representatives. as alleged. of admitting every peraqn who presents himself with thu certificate of the proper olficer. From the great number of that House any other course would be impracticable. The case in that House is a case of necessity. and yet even there. as everywhere in the instance of a legislative body. it is a very grievous evil. even though it be a choice of evils. that one or more tmen shall sit in a legislative body and help to make laws. even in cases where the passage of the act depends on their votes. and yet it shall turn out finally that the claim under which they sat there was utterly null and void from the beginning. The smaller the body the greater the evil. In the Senate it is an evil so great that it is difficult to say that it is not at paramount consideration.
| S | "1873-03-07T00:00:00" | 46 | Mr. CASSERLY | Unknown | CASSERLY | Unknown | M | 520 | 722 | 03071873.txt | 12,509 | 2,275 |